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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


The other side of the Granderson trade

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 11, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

On the day news broke about the Curtis Granderson trade, I emailed Bill Ferris. I’ve never met Bill, but he runs a terrific Tigers blog and I wanted his perspective on the deal. He had already written a great post about his emotional response to the trade, and I thought his perspective could be welcome here at LoHud.

Bill agreed and wrote 350 words that I planned to post during the Winter Meetings. But then the Yankees signed Andy Pettitte. Then Brian Cashman made the trade official. Then Cashman finally talked about it. Then Granderson talked. Then the Yankees took an outfielder in the Rule 5. Basically, Bill had to wait, but here’s his take. It’s a great fan perspective on a new Yankee.

———

With a player as popular as Curtis Granderson there is always going to be a strong emotional response. I have certainly been hit by that response. Granderson’s popularity comes not only from his on field accomplishments but from his total package. He is a model citizen who went out of his way to establish himself in the community starting the Grand Kids Foundation which promotes education in Detroit and Flint.

One of the other things about Granderson is that he’s a smart guy and a hard worker. He’s been described as very coachable, and when there is a deficiency in his game he works hard to resolve it and is usually successful. He also does all those little things that fans love. He never takes a play off, he never gets down or complains. He’ll likely excel in Yankee Stadium and seeing him put up 40 homers wouldn’t surprise me at all (most of Granderson’s homers came on the road last year).

The last thing that elicits this emotional response is that Granderson was part of the core of players that helped make baseball relevant again in Detroit after a decade of just awfulness.

With such a strong emotional response many fans won’t even want to consider what the Tigers got back which is a shame. The Tigers got a nice package of players and I feel like the Tigers did OK with the deal. Still, even with all the big deals that Dave Dombrowski has pulled in this town, his legacy will likely be tied to this one if it doesn’t work out for the Tigers. Fans will moan every time they see a Granderson highlight on SportsCenter and think of what could have been.

Granderson does have some limitation. His arm is probably his weakest tool and he has regressed in terms of his ability to hit lefties. I do think a new hitting coach will help him resolve some of those issues. Despite the home runs last year, many considered it a down year as his batting average and OBP were dragged down by a low BABIP.

———

Thanks Bill!

Also, check out Joe Posnanski’s take on the Granderson trade. Posnanski might be my favorite writer — not just baseball writer, I enjoy reading him more than I enjoy reading Mark Twain – and he’s at his best when writing about baseball. Spoiler alert, he loves the deal for the Yankees.

Comments

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544 Responses to “The other side of the Granderson trade”

  1. Rishi December 11th, 2009 at 3:43 pm

    I posted a link to that Joe P article earlier – it is a great ready…

  2. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2009 at 3:43 pm

    The Angels are SO screwed if they lose Lackey to the Yanks.

    CC, Lackey, AJ, Andy

    FInd a cheap DH.

    Like Cashman said, DH’s are ‘begging’ for jobs.

    He can find one cheap.

  3. Neil December 11th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    As suspected by many Yankee followers, the Boston Socks have painted themselves into a corner.

    http://www.bostonherald.com/sp.....position=3

  4. lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 11th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    The moment Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain move to the bullpen full-time they are no longer valuable assets.

    They become a part of a group of players who are the least important, least valuable, and most easily replaceable players in baseball.

    The value they bring to the team pitching the eighth inning is very, very minimal.

  5. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2009 at 3:49 pm

    How bout this then?

    The Yankees sign Lackey.

    Joba and Phil compete for the final spot in the rotation.

    The loser gets packaged to Cleveland for Shin Shoo Choo.

    Choo plays RF, Swisher becomes the DH.

  6. Chip December 11th, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    Not sure how many of you heard Cashman on WFAN but when asked about Damon and Matsui he responded with essentially the following:

    “You never say never but I want to add pitching and I can’t do it all.”

    He also said that he’s working off a firm budget, not a suggested one, but that there’s a number that he cannot go over.

    To me that indicates that either Damon or Matsui will be back but not both and the rest will go towards pitching.

    Cashman also more or less pooh-poohed Hideki’s WS MVP saying that more important to him was watching Damaso Marte get the lefties on the Phillies out. Cashman also said on a number of occassions that his choices weren’t going to be influenced by the post season alone.

    I think going into the post season we all pretty much believed that Damon would be invited back and Matsui would not be, I think that’s still the case (despite SJ44 saying that according to his Japanese media sources the Yankees are going to make him an offer).

  7. Tom in NJ December 11th, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    “I enjoy reading him more than I enjoy reading Mark Twain”

    Well, they’re both Missourians.

  8. Chad Jennings December 11th, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    I think Posnanski is actually from North Carolina, but I’m not sure. He certainly works in Missouri now.

  9. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    “You never say never but I want to add pitching and I can’t do it all.”

    Lackey :)

  10. Chip December 11th, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    Hughes is not going to AAA. Cashman told Sherman that isn’t in the plans for 2010.

    Amazing how when Cashman says something SJ44 agrees with it’s to be taken as gospel but when he says something that SJ44 doesn’t agree with then it’s “Well Brian isn’t going to tip his hand.”

    Funny how that works.

  11. pat December 11th, 2009 at 3:54 pm

    “The moment Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain move to the bullpen full-time they are no longer valuable assets.”

    If one of them is projected as a closer in training, they could be the most valuable player on the roster.

  12. Pat M. December 11th, 2009 at 3:54 pm

    Mats will return to The Bronx……He’s too good of a hitter to just walk away……He’ll ink in the neighborhood of 7 million

  13. Mark in Tampa December 11th, 2009 at 3:54 pm

    RE: Shin Soo Choo, from CBSsports.com Talk about pressure to win!

    From the Korea Herald: Indians outfielder Choo Shin-Soo of South Korea is eager to play for his national team at the Asian Games slated for next year in China, according to Yonhap News. “I’m ready to join the national squad, if I get a call,” he said. “I have been talking with my club on the issue. I want to take part in the Asian Games.” South Korea’s baseball team won its first-ever Olympic gold in Beijing last year and aims to win the Asian Games scheduled to be held in Guangzhou in November next year. A gold medal in Guangzhou would give Choo an exemption from two-year compulsory military service, which he is required to serve before age 30. South Korean law allows exceptions if a player or his team wins an Asian Games gold or at least a bronze medal at the Olympics.

  14. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    If one of them is projected as a closer in training, they could be the most valuable player on the roster.

    Even a mediocore pitcher in training is more valuable than a closer in training. Mariano shows no signs of slowing down.

    A closer 5 years down the line <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< average pitcher right now and for the future

  15. pat December 11th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    “To me that indicates that either Damon or Matsui will be back but not both and the rest will go towards pitching.”

    To me it sounded like he will see what a pitcher will cost and if theres any $$ left, Damon and Matsui as well as others will be considered.

  16. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    Choo is the big bat Cashman covets – I just know it – :lol:

  17. L to the 2nd December 11th, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    Meh, that’s Stealth Cash talking again.

    He signs Damon (2/$18m), Matsui (1/$7 mil.) and takes a flyer on Sheets (1 yr. / $8m)

    I think Lackey probably blows his “budget”.

  18. lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 11th, 2009 at 3:59 pm

    pat
    December 11th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
    “The moment Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain move to the bullpen full-time they are no longer valuable assets.”
    If one of them is projected as a closer in training, they could be the most valuable player on the roster.

    ————————–

    Your joking right?

    If relievers and closers are so valuable why does the BEST closer in the history of baseball only make 15 million dollars?

    Why are relievers struggling to find jobs because teams do not want to give up a draft pick for them and pay them?

    Why do guys like Marte make only 4 mill a year and guys like Burnett make 17 a year?

    A relief pitchers impact on the team is virtually nothing in comparison to everyday players and SP. The 70 innings they pitch a year just does not have that much of an impact on the game.

    Just to put it in context: In the dynasty years Jeter, Bernie, Posada, and Andy were all FAAAAAR move valuable to the team than Mo.

  19. DaSaint007 December 11th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    Mariano can continue to close effectively for another 3 to 5 years.

    He’s not human.

    Joba/Hughes will be graying by then.

  20. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

    Look how many teams came out of the wordwork for Gardner when the Yankees acquired Granderson.

    Watch what happens if the Yanks sign Lackey.

    We’ll see how much other teams value Hughes and Joba.

    And the best part is, the Angels are SO screwed if they lose Lackey to the Yanks. Any other team but the Yanks and they have a pulse. If they lose Lackey to this WS team, they’re dead.

  21. Nick D. December 11th, 2009 at 4:02 pm

    If one of them is projected as a closer in training, they could be the most valuable player on the roster.

    ——

    Not really. Closers are routinely over-valued, misused and over-rated. I’m not saying Mo isn’t great before everyone goes bonkers on me…he happens to be the best. But the reality is that closers do not offer as much value is as starters. Ever. Mo is not as valuable to the Yankees as CC Sabathia is in terms of pure value and statistics that measure such things.

  22. Doreen December 11th, 2009 at 4:02 pm

    Thanks for the link to Joe P’s article, Chad. It’s got me smiling for sure. Pat M – Joe P may be the only guy in the universe more excited than you by Granderson!

    Thanks also for Bill Ferris’ take on the trade.

    I think Damon will not sign. I think Damon, when all is said and done, will not want to come to grips with the fact that he is no longer viewed the same way he was viewed 4 years ago. (I hope I am very wrong, but there is a conceit to Johnny that mostly works in his favor, but here it might not.)

    Of the two, I prefer Matsui.

    However, I will be happy with whatever team takes the field on opening day.

  23. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 4:02 pm

    Closers are only valuable if they are named Mariano Rivera, aka unflappable, consistent, monsters who never tire or die. All 29 other closers are expendable.

    Heath Bell was a nobody on the Mets, now he is the fiery closer of the San Diego Padres. The Tigers and Indians had Joe Borowski and Moustache Jones closing games for them for crying out loud.

    We could platoon Robertson and Marte next season in the 9th and probably get away with it.

  24. Jeremy December 11th, 2009 at 4:02 pm

    Thank God Fred is gone with his stupid A.J for Manny deal.

  25. Chip December 11th, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    To me it sounded like he will see what a pitcher will cost and if theres any $$ left, Damon and Matsui as well as others will be considered.

    Pat -

    Yeah but then when he talked about the cost of pitchers I don’t imagine that there will be much money left.

    My guess is that he signs one of them, signs a pitcher, and then if the other one is still out there with no team (think Pudge Rodriguez last year) and is willing to take table scraps that’s the only way they are both back. And of the two, all things being equal, I think he would prefer Damon to Matsui.

    And that’s fine – I can live with Damon at DH and Melky batting 9 playing LF with Granderson taking Matsui’s spot in the order behind Alex.

    If Damon overplays his hand with the Yankees and Cashman signs Matsui to be the full time DH – that’s fine too – Granderson bats 2nd, Matsui 5 and Melky 9 in LF.

    I think this lineup is deep enough to get by with Melky in the 9 spot, you don’t need a star at every position. The rotation, at that point, would be the more pressing need.

  26. Joe from CT December 11th, 2009 at 4:04 pm

    Jeremy,

    Fred’s idea was great. We should trade Teixeira too for Lincecum so him and Fred can smoke some more weed together

  27. Erin December 11th, 2009 at 4:04 pm

    Jeremy
    December 11th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
    Thank God Fred is gone with his stupid A.J for Manny deal.

    ******************
    Ugh! Don’t even bring that up again. lol ;)

  28. lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 11th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    You take Mo off the Yankees last year and they still win 100 games.

  29. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    If Cashman gets his wish for pitching and signs Lackey, there is no money left for Damon or Matsui. The only thing that would be left is Joba or Hughes competing for the final rotation spot and the loser gets traded for a big bat.

  30. Joe from CT December 11th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 11th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    You take Mo off the Yankees last year and they still win 100 games.

    How can you even say that with such certainty???? Mo had 44 saves I mean cmon this guy is not Brad Lidge lol

  31. DaSaint007 December 11th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    Both Damon and Matsui are great guys. Sadly, only one will be on the roster come opening day.

    Cashman will add another arm, from where, I don’t know. But from his comments today, it appears that he wants to add a Free Agent – not a starter via trade. He’s willing to consider ‘established’ names, as well as taking a flyer on a reclamation project, who would compete with Joba and Hughes.

  32. Betsy -high on pie December 11th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    Jerkface, Cash screwed up in 2007 by even bringing Phil up. I don’t care if the rotation was in shambles- go out and find someone. He had already said that winter that Phil wasn’t going to be called up until September – he was not ready.

    I appreciate your points about working on pitches in the bullpen and I remember that conversation on this board as well, but IMO, Phil needs to start. I expect him to remain in the pen for the remainder of his Yankee career if he’s in the pen in 2010. This is not dramatics by me – he’s not 20 years old anymore, he’s almost 24.

  33. Mark in Tampa December 11th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    “You take Mo off the Yankees last year and they still win 100 games.”

    Yes, if you assume that they would have had a ML average closer in his place, not just shuffling the BP backwards.

  34. pat December 11th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    “Your joking right?”

    No. I don’t think its a coincidence that the Yankees won alot when they only need their starters to give them 7 or 8 innings.

    Not many starters go 9, when they do they build up innings early in the year that could affect productivity later in the year.

    Yanks had 15 walk off wins this season and 50 come from behind wins.

    It would be interesting to see how many were off a starter.

  35. Betsy -high on pie December 11th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    SJ, as a starter, Phil is a stud. I believe that with all my heart and I believe the Yankees believe that. As a reliever, it’s a complete waste. I’m not trying to be obstinate, but it makes zero sense to me to waste this kid in the pen. If he’s in the pen all year (I expect him to lose the competition in ST unless Joba is just garbage), he will have major innings limits on him in 2011 – at age 25, when he hasn’t learned to pitch as a starter, where his secondary pitches have rusted away because he wouldn’t have used them in the pen.

    Objectively speaking, competition is good for players. In Phil’s case, I don’t buy it. He’s behind the 8 ball as a starter as is and he can’t make that up in the pen. I

  36. no.27 December 11th, 2009 at 4:09 pm

    Outfielders are available every year. In 2 years, the Yankees got Curtis Granderson and Nick Swisher, 2 strong offensive players locked up to reasonable contracts during their prime years for Wilson Betemit, Jhonny Nunez, Jeff Marquez, Ian Kennedy, Phil Coke, and Austin Jackson.

    I don’t think the Yankees would trade Hughes or Chamberlain for all 6 of those players. A young, cost controlled starting pitcher is worth way more than a corner outfielder. I could see the Yankees trading Hughes or Joba for a CF, SS, 2B, 3B, or C, but all those positions are filled.

    The Yankees don’t need a 4th starter better than Joba. They won 103 games last year with him as the 4th starter and he will improve on his numbers from last year. Last year their 5th starters had 32 starts, 147 IP, 6.91 ERA. That’s less than 5 innings per start. Hughes will easily do better than that.

  37. DaSaint007 December 11th, 2009 at 4:09 pm

    Cashman on WFAN

    http://www.wfan.com/topic/play_window.php?
    audioType=Episode&audioId=4225782

  38. DaSaint007 December 11th, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    Best line by Cash: “…Edwar Ramirez is on life support”

  39. lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 11th, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    Ok Joe from CT,

    You just made it very easy for me by bringing up Brad Lidge.

    Lidge single-handedly blew 11 games last year for the Phillies and they still won 93 games.

  40. Wave Your Hat December 11th, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    “They become a part of a group of players who are the least important, least valuable, and most easily replaceable players in baseball.

    The value they bring to the team pitching the eighth inning is very, very minimal.”

    Sure, Hughes and Chamberlain are more valuable as starters than as relievers. All things being equal, that is.

    All things are never equal, though.

    If the Yanks think that they can find a better starter than what they project one of Joba or Phil will do as a starter, for a price the Yanks are willing to pay, it makes perfect sense for the Yanks to sign that starter and move one of Phil or Joba to the pen.

    The season is not awarded to the team with the best production/salary ratio, it is determined by which team wins the most games.

    If the Yanks think that means finding another starter, even if that means they don’t “maximize” the individual value of Joba or Hughes, that is a perfectly reasonable strategy.

  41. Chip December 11th, 2009 at 4:12 pm

    Another thing on Brian spending this winter –

    Like I said, he did talk about having a firm budget number that he can’t get over and I think Cashman would like to leave himself some wiggle room heading into the season in case someone becomes available via the trade market who would improve the team but it would involve taking on some money.

    Just as an example: If Cashman signs only Matsui and not Damon and the opportunity to trade for Mark Buerhle (just to throw a name out there) comes up, Cashman would have some payroll flexibility to add that contract whereas he might not if he signs both Damon and Matsui.

  42. Betsy -high on pie December 11th, 2009 at 4:12 pm

    I wonder when Kevin Towers is expected to make his decision…….

  43. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 4:12 pm

    Betsy -

    The article wasn’t about pitchers being able to develop pitches while being part of a major league bullpen. It was about them being able to develop pitches while throwing major league bullpens and side sessions on their off days.

    Its more about starters being able to continue development once arriving to the majors from the minors, rather than a starter vs reliever issue.

  44. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2009 at 4:12 pm

    Choo might hit 35 HR’s in YS.

    Big lefty.

    Earns 400K.

    .300 BA

    .400 OBP

    High price tag

  45. lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 11th, 2009 at 4:12 pm

    Mark in Tampa
    December 11th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
    “You take Mo off the Yankees last year and they still win 100 games.”
    Yes, if you assume that they would have had a ML average closer in his place, not just shuffling the BP backwards.

    ————————-

    Of course. It is the Yankees though, so if Mo went down I think it is safe to assume at minimum they would find an average closer. Robertson could have easily been an average ML closer last year.

  46. DaSaint007 December 11th, 2009 at 4:12 pm

    oops. bad link. sorry

  47. CountryClub December 11th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    I just don’t see the Yanks being interested in Lackey. The guy has missed significant time the past two years with elbow problems. It’s an unnecessary risk.

  48. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    21 steals for Choo in 2009 and Gold Glove quality defense in RF.

  49. Chip December 11th, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    DaSaint007
    December 11th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
    Both Damon and Matsui are great guys. Sadly, only one will be on the roster come opening day.

    Cashman will add another arm, from where, I don’t know. But from his comments today, it appears that he wants to add a Free Agent – not a starter via trade. He’s willing to consider ‘established’ names, as well as taking a flyer on a reclamation project, who would compete with Joba and Hughes.
    —————————————–

    Agree 100%

    The question to me at that point becomes, would Cashman consider adding neither Damon or Matsui and instead using that money to go after Lackey?

    If the Randy Wolf’s of the world are getting 3 years 30 mil, and the reclaimation projects like Harden are worth at least 7.5 mil, then could he just say to himself (and Hal), “I’ll spend the extra money on the best pitcher out there and count on my offense being strong enough to carry a couple of unproven bats in the 8 and 9 spots”

  50. Pat M. December 11th, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    Betsy, I was all for Phil to come up, and even more so as he was tossing a no hitter in Texas on his 2nd MLB start….However, Randy I was very outspoken on how this was not the proper time for Young Master Hughes to be called up…..Then it was a nightmare season until he resurfaced once again in September / October…..In many way, Hughes has lost nearly 2 full seasons of growth when one factors in the Bullpen role…I for one think the pen experience will pay dividends in 2010

  51. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 4:17 pm

    Choo would be a dream acquisiton but he is too expensive. Cheap and very talented. Anyone could have had him for a bag of balls back when he was first traded around. Sad.

  52. lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 11th, 2009 at 4:17 pm

    Wave Your Hat,

    In my scenario “maximizing the value” of Joba or Hughes means trading them before you bury them in the pen and destroy their future of ever being SP.

    Joba/Hughes SP>>>Trading Joba/Hughes to start for another team>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Joba/Hughes as relievers.

    What they would bring back in a trade would be far more valuable to the Yankees then them as relievers.

  53. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes December 11th, 2009 at 4:17 pm

    I wrote this in the previous thread:

    Jerkface, you are guilty of collapsing elite speed with elite defense re Brett Gardner.

    He is far, far removed from being an elite CF.

    To be an elite CF, you need more than plus-plus speed. He is one of the worst CF I’ve seen in my years of watching the Yankees on backflight – which is a serious indictment considering he is so fast.

  54. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2009 at 4:18 pm

    CountryClub
    December 11th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
    I just don’t see the Yanks being interested in Lackey. The guy has missed significant time the past two years with elbow problems. It’s an unnecessary risk.

    Maybe, but that’s for team doctor’s to decide.

  55. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 4:19 pm

    Lackey is not going to the Yankees, he is a solid pitcher but not for the money that he is going to command. His pumpkin shaped head and grotesque face will probably lose revenues from YES for tv viewers switching their sets off in disgust everytime one of his promos comes on.

    If the Mines of Moria were starting a baseball team, I’m sure they’d take him first pick.

  56. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes December 11th, 2009 at 4:19 pm

    For example, an ELITE CF with blinding speed is Andruw Jones, who could play shallow and not pay for it when the ball was hit over his head to the wall.

    Why? He had ridiculous speed AND could read the ball. He didn’t trade off on his speed advantage with bad jumps.

    Gary Pettis, for the older sorts, is another example of elite speed and instincts.

    A good example of bad instincts and elite speed is Rickey Henderson.

  57. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 4:21 pm

    To be an elite CF, you need more than plus-plus speed. He is one of the worst CF I’ve seen in my years of watching the Yankees on backflight – which is a serious indictment considering he is so fast.

    My eye test and UZR/150 backs up my assertion re: his defense. He got to balls in right center and left center that should have been Swisher/Damon’s. His weakness was probably going back on balls.

    He isn’t perfect, but if he had harnessed all of his tools he would be the best centerfielder in baseball. As it stands he has room to grow, but his base is already an elite centerfielder based on fielding metrics.

    We’ll see how it shakes out depending on where he is playing next season. Like I said, UZR needs about 3 seasons to fully coalesce

  58. Wave Your Hat December 11th, 2009 at 4:21 pm

    “What they would bring back in a trade would be far more valuable to the Yankees then them as relievers.”

    Not necessarily, depending upon (1) how the salaries of the assets Joba or Phil would bring in a trade would fit into the current Yankee budget, and (2) how the Yanks weigh the value of Joba and Phil’s future services.

    You are taking a generally valid point and pushing it past its useful limit.

  59. Chip December 11th, 2009 at 4:21 pm

    Choo would be a dream acquisiton but he is too expensive. Cheap and very talented. Anyone could have had him for a bag of balls back when he was first traded around. Sad

    In fact he was gotten for a bag of balls – Ben Broussard (or Eduardo Perez I forget which – I know one was for him and the other was for Asdrubal Cabrera – both dumb moves by the Mariners)

  60. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2009 at 4:22 pm

    Lackey is the best FA pitcher available and the Yanks are through with high priced reclamation projects.

    He’s a pitbull.

    If his medicals clear, he’s #2 behind CC.

  61. Uncle Ellsworth (Expert textpert choking smokers, don't you think the joker laughs at you) December 11th, 2009 at 4:22 pm

    Didn’t Gardner get burned playing shallow against LAA in the playoffs? just sayin.

  62. DaSaint007 December 11th, 2009 at 4:22 pm

    It’s interesting that Cashman is still considering Molina as backup, but may replace him with Cervelli due to budgetary constraints.

    I do think that it’s possible that neither Damon nor Matsui could come back, and instead add an arm for the rotation. Miranda and Hoffman could be the cheap and possibly effective DH options, but I think everyone would rather have a veteran bat at DH.

  63. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 4:23 pm

    He’s a pitbull.

    Looks like one.

  64. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 4:24 pm

    Didn’t Gardner get burned playing shallow against LAA in the playoffs? just sayin.

    No one is perfect. Chase Utley is widely regarded as one of the best defensive second basemen and I saw him throw one into the seats in the playoffs.

    People call Jeter a clutch hitter and one of the best in the game but didn’t he ground into a double play with a chance to tie the game? just saying.

    Dumb argument.

  65. Pat M. December 11th, 2009 at 4:27 pm

    Bod…..Excellent points on the centerfield position

  66. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes December 11th, 2009 at 4:27 pm

    My eye test and UZR/150 backs up my assertion re: his defense. He got to balls in right center and left center that should have been Swisher/Damon’s. His weakness was probably going back on balls.
    He isn’t perfect, but if he had harnessed all of his tools he would be the best centerfielder in baseball. As it stands he has room to grow, but his base is already an elite centerfielder based on fielding metrics.
    We’ll see how it shakes out depending on where he is playing next season. Like I said, UZR needs about 3 seasons to fully coalesce.

    ======

    Yes, the creators of UZR themselves put that caveat in, and well they should, since the numbers fluctuate wildly in short time increments.

    You can’t call someone an elite CF and also acknowledge their struggles judging balls on backflight – that’s kind of a big part of the equation.

    I’ve seen Gardner since his minor league days, and have been a season ticket holder for his brief Yankee career.

    He gets poor jumps, often turns the wrong way on back flight, and generally expends far too much energy carving up the outfield – an elite CF with the plus-plus speed he has would not be so taxed getting to the ball.

    Yes, he is terrific coast to coast – a great gap sealer. But his instincts are not good – and that, too, is inborn in the really elite outfielders.

    So I cannot accept on any level defining Gardner as an elite CF package.

  67. randy l. December 11th, 2009 at 4:28 pm

    pat m-

    just finished playing golf for the first time in 8 years. hit my 2 iron great and missed with my 100 yard shots. go figure.

    felt great to get back out there.

    as far as hughes goes, back in 2007 he was just a baby . i just thought they should err on the slow side and let him get a lot of triple a experience. it’s easy to look back and see that it was too soon for him.

    one of the reasons i’ve softened my view of cashman is he seems like he’s learned from mistakes like rushing hughes. i think cashman is leaning towards having joba start in spring training,but move to the bullpen if the yankees get anther starter.

    this leaves it wide open for hughes to move right into the rotation. he’s more than ready right now to be a very good #5 starter for this team, and he may surprise. i’ve always liked hughes and i especially like the movement and command of his fastball when he’s on.

    i’m with you that this is his year to make a move for good into the rotation.

  68. lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 11th, 2009 at 4:28 pm

    Wave Your Hat
    December 11th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
    “What they would bring back in a trade would be far more valuable to the Yankees then them as relievers.”
    Not necessarily, depending upon (1) how the salaries of the assets Joba or Phil would bring in a trade would fit into the current Yankee budget, and (2) how the Yanks weigh the value of Joba and Phil’s future services.
    You are taking a generally valid point and pushing it past its useful limit.

    —————————-

    If either of them spend all next year in the pen, I can not see how they could ever be SP for the Yankees. Therefore the value of their future services would be as relievers, which is not very much. Their depression in value is also multiplied by the fact that the Yankees already have a closer that probably is not going anywhere in the near future.

  69. Chip December 11th, 2009 at 4:28 pm

    I do think that it’s possible that neither Damon nor Matsui could come back, and instead add an arm for the rotation. Miranda and Hoffman could be the cheap and possibly effective DH options, but I think everyone would rather have a veteran bat at DH

    I think it’s also possible that with a very strong spring Hoffmann could get a starting role in the OF if Cashman decided to throw all the money at the pitching.

  70. m December 11th, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    WAS Andruw Jones.

    ================

    Pat m,

    Phil had a nightmare season because he pulled a hammy. Then he turned his ankle while rehabbing the hammy in the minors. The nightmare season wasn’t because he was called up, no matter what certain people want to believe. And yes, I do remember reading things like “Phil wouldn’t have reared back for that something extra on that pitch if wasn’t going for the no-hitter in the majors”.

  71. CR9 December 11th, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    “Chien-Ming Wang, SP – Wang, 30 in March, had fine years in ’06 and ’07 as the Yankees’ mid-rotation groundball specialist. He had shoulder surgery in July, so the Yankees will non-tender him rather than pay anything close to this year’s $5MM salary.”

    Via Tim Dierkes at MLBTr

    Again, Tim shows his true colors.

    Does anyone else see anything wrong with that description?

  72. DaSaint007 December 11th, 2009 at 4:30 pm

    I think it’s also possible that with a very strong spring Hoffmann could get a starting role in the OF if Cashman decided to throw all the money at the pitching.
    ———————————————————-
    Which comes first?

  73. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes December 11th, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    PAT M,

    I figure I’ll get killed on Henderson, but like the song says, those who have lived through it , know it, lol. And I’m one of the people who thought Rickey got a bum rap for “jaking” – he just couldn’t judge the baseball well!

  74. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    I agree with Bodhi.

    Gardner is the 3rd CF on this team behind Granderson and Melky who will play LF and backup CF most likely.

    Gardner is more valuable to a small market team looking for a CF-leadoff guy.

    That’s why other teams (Cubs, Royals etc.) hit the phones when the Yanks added Granderson, forcing Gardner down the depth chart.

  75. 108 stitches December 11th, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    Joe Posnanski makes excellent points about Granderson. All things point to him being a good teammate which is always welcome in the Yankee clubhouse.
    Gotta love his “Granderson Central Station” take.
    Kevin Long is probably chomping at the bit to get any kinks out of Granderson’s swing.

  76. m December 11th, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    I know that Gardner got burned because mo was on the mound and the bench placed him that shallow. And then mo gave up a bomb that even your bestest, bestest center fielder wouldn’t been able to get to.

  77. champ809 December 11th, 2009 at 4:32 pm

    champ809
    December 11th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
    A Few Things We Should All Be Fairly Certain OF

    1-Cashman is not signing another pitcher to a multiyear contract or a contract that exceeds the AAV of Pett’s that is not named Roy Halladay….in other words Lackey won’t be a Yankee guys!Deal with it.

    2-If Damon walks and we bring in Cameron then one of two scenarios happen;
    a-Cameron the better def CF plays in CF and Grandy moves to LF where many including his former coach who was a CF himself feel would be his best position or;
    b-Cameron moves to RF where he played with the Mets and was gold glove caliber and Grandy stays in CF and Swish moves to LF or he’s traded

    3-We will not be trading Montero,Hughes or Joba for Halladay and certainly not any combo of the 2 for him.Our main concern is if Boston were to get him which based on their posturing seems highly unlikely.Right now he’s either heading to LA or Phillie which is fine as i don’t think he will sign an extension with either of those teams(the Phils maybe but I doubt they can re-up both Hals and Lee).So right now it seems most likely that Roy will be sitting there all pretty looking on the FA shelf next year for just a check.

    In a perfect Yankee world you’d like to pair Hals and CC to be the role model/mentors for Joba and Hughes for the next 3-4yrs of their development.If we play this right our ro for 2011-2014 could be CC,Hals,AJ,Joba,Hughes,Chapman/Banuelos/Brackman/Bettances/
    Vizcaino/DJ Mitch/Warren/Ortiz/Phelps etc….get the point?! the pitching talent in our organization is embarassingly good deep and plentiful..
    Paying ANY starter- not named Halladay – right now 4-5yrs is just asinine when you look at the strength and makeup of our organization.

  78. champ809 December 11th, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    champ809
    December 11th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
    Chip
    December 11th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
    Sabean is not bailing Scott out on Johnny Damon. That’s an option that isn’t on the table right now and probably won’t be.

    If you say so buddy.

    Sabean said he wasn’t going to give Damon a 4 year deal, but that doesn’t mean he won’t make an offer. As you said, you have to understand team needs. The San Francisco Giants need outfielders and they need offense. They can’t afford Bay or Holliday but Damon may be a less expensive option that they will go after.
    **********************************************************

    while it may be true that the Gints NEED Of’ers they also know that the dropoff from Bay/Holliday(true power hitters) to Damon(his “power” is a mirage and a creation of Fenway/Yankee Stadium) is CAVERNOUS! Playing in the NL west Damon would probably hit single digit homers and certainly would revert back to the 12 homer guy he really is.
    The truth is Damon is DYING to stay with the Yanks in order to artificially pad his stats and win a couple more rings so that confused numbnuts in 8-10yrs mistakenly confuse him for a HOF player. He also wants that Yanks to OVERPAY him as though he’s actually a power hitting corner of’er(he’s not!)

  79. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes December 11th, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    m
    December 11th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
    WAS Andruw Jones.
    ==
    Yes, the correction is noted. Definitely WAS.

  80. Uncle Ellsworth (Expert textpert choking smokers, don't you think the joker laughs at you) December 11th, 2009 at 4:36 pm

    m
    December 11th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
    I know that Gardner got burned because mo was on the mound and the bench placed him that shallow. And then mo gave up a bomb that even your bestest, bestest center fielder wouldn’t been able to get to.

    Thanks m

  81. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 4:36 pm

    He gets poor jumps, often turns the wrong way on back flight, and generally expends far too much energy carving up the outfield – an elite CF with the plus-plus speed he has would not be so taxed getting to the ball.

    Yes, he is terrific coast to coast – a great gap sealer. But his instincts are not good – and that, too, is inborn in the really elite outfielders.

    So I cannot accept on any level defining Gardner as an elite CF package.

    Ok, I agree with you that he is not fully using his abilities but you have asserted here yourself that he gets to balls, he just uses too much energy to do it. As long as he gets to them, and does it better than 95% of baseball, he is an elite CFer.

    Just going by pure production and not skills/whatever.

    The next step for him is to get practice on a major league field and mix his brain with his speed, because then he can join guys like Guiterrez at the top of the best.

  82. Wave Your Hat December 11th, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    “If either of them spend all next year in the pen, I can not see how they could ever be SP for the Yankees. ”

    That is a ludicrous statement. The history of baseball is replete with examples of pitchers that have moved between starting and relieving. If Phil pitches in the pen in 2010, he could easily start in 2011.

    Next. Let’s say the Yanks think that with Phil and Joba in the starting rotation, that their starting rotation is not good enough, and their bullpen is not good enough. And by getting a starter and moving one of Phil or Joba to the pen, they solve both problems.

    The key fact is that both Phil and Joba are making close to the minimum, and they won’t be replaced in a trade by equally talented assets also making close to the minimum.

    In order to solve what the Yanks may think of as a pitching problem, and stay within budget, it may mean moving one of the wunderkind to the pen.

  83. Chip December 11th, 2009 at 4:38 pm

    I think it’s also possible that with a very strong spring Hoffmann could get a starting role in the OF if Cashman decided to throw all the money at the pitching.
    ———————————————————-
    Which comes first?
    ____________________

    If Melky Cabrera is pencilled in as a starter in the OF – meaning Cashman either brings back Matsui or Damon or neither, I think Hoffmann could wrest the job from him and send Melky to the bench much like Gardner was given the opportunity to do last year. It’s also possible, though a little less likely, that if Cashman doesn’t bring either Matsui or Damon back and Hoffmann has a good spring he could start in RF with Swisher moving to DH – again, maximizing the defensive ability of the team.

  84. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes December 11th, 2009 at 4:39 pm

    m
    December 11th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
    I know that Gardner got burned because mo was on the mound and the bench placed him that shallow. And then mo gave up a bomb that even your bestest, bestest center fielder wouldn’t been able to get to.
    ====

    Sorry, m, this doesn’t change that he turned the wrong way on this play.

    The viability of making the play is moot, but agree he was playing shallower than they’ve let him because of Mo’s broken-bat cheapie potential, but then you have to watch how the player reacts.

  85. Pat M. December 11th, 2009 at 4:39 pm

    Randy I ( The Original Tin Cup ) I say you shot a 78

  86. Wave Your Hat December 11th, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    “b-Cameron moves to RF where he played with the Mets and was gold glove caliber and Grandy stays in CF and Swish moves to LF or he’s traded”

    Cameron would be wasted in RF in Yankee Stadium, the value of his range would be diminished.

  87. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    I don’t see Hoffman or Melky as a starter on the Yankees with Granderson here. Hoffman might spell Granderson vs lefties, Melky might be the 4th OFer.

    Neither is starting next year. There will be a LFer not named Hoffman or Melky

  88. m December 11th, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    Uncle,

    NP.

    Question, the more a player plays in the outfield the better they get at reading the ball? Or is it a stagnant skill?

  89. Yankee Trader December 11th, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    It will be interesting to see who is non-tendered tomorrow. Jonny Gomes, others?

    Don’t think Damon is coming back, and if the Yankees sign or trade for another OF’er, with Swisher moving to DH, Matsui likely won’t be either.

    White Sox want Gardner. I want Matt Thornton. Work out a deal, now that they just signed JJ Putz.

    Royals want Gardner. I want Soria, but of course that’s not happening. Gardner for DeJesus, 29yo lefty who could hit in 2 hole with good LF defensive credentials “might” entice me.

    Halladay:
    Why would the Phillies want to trade players plus sign him to an extension, when they should definitely sign Lee to an extension?

    Angels: Saunders and Aybar plus others is fair, but if they don’t resign Lackey they essentially lose 2 pitchers, their new leadoff hitter, to sign him to an extension.

    Yankees: Best bet if possible is that they consider him when he becomes a FA.

  90. Chip December 11th, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    2-If Damon walks and we bring in Cameron then one of two scenarios happen;
    a-Cameron the better def CF plays in CF and Grandy moves to LF where many including his former coach who was a CF himself feel would be his best position or;
    b-Cameron moves to RF where he played with the Mets and was gold glove caliber and Grandy stays in CF and Swish moves to LF or he’s traded
    —————————————-
    c-Cameron moves to RF, Melky plays LF and Swisher goes to DH and the Yankees have a tremendous defensive OF.

  91. timo December 11th, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    Having viewed all of Hoffman’s ML ABs courtesy of the mlb.tv archive, I’ll say that no way he gets a starting spot out of spring training. And, if makes the roster and gets in a starting lineup in 2010, it will be in the field giving a regular a break, not as a DH. He’s a solid defender.

    Those of you with mlb.tv should check out his debut games (May 22 and following); good excuse to listing to Vin Scully. Others can search his name on youtube for a few clips, including a (shockingly, for a big guy) smooth suicide squeeze in a minor league contest.

  92. no.27 December 11th, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    “Choo might hit 35 HR’s in YS.”

    That’s a stretch. He’s hit 37 in his entire career.

  93. randy l. December 11th, 2009 at 4:43 pm

    m-

    you couldn’t be more wrong about hughes being brought up too early in 2007. the only reason i was on this before he even threw his first mlb pitch was i was in the triple a twins locker room on a cold pawtucket night when garza pitched.

    i asked the triple a manager stu cliburn why he took garza out after 78 pitches. he said if garza would have thrown 80 pitches he would have been fired. the reason was it had been a historically cold wet snowy spring and all the northern triple a pitchers were behind a few weeks.

    hughes was in exactly the same boat as garza. he had been pitching in cold freezing conditions and didn’t have much of a base down. he couldn’t go more than 45 pitches without losing velocity.

    when losing velocity like that it makes a pitcher overthrow. no one can say exactly why a pitcher gets hurt, but if you wanted to injure hughes, having him go to the majors when he couldn’t even throw 45 pitches without losing velocity, you couldn’t have done anything that would have make an injury more likely.

    i said it before he got hurt and it was what happened. twenty years old is really young and probably too early. but being in shape to throw inly 45 pitches was the biggest problem at that time and what led to him getting hurt.

    it was a bad decision by cashman.
    he knows it and i don’ think we’ll see him do it again with another twenty year old.

  94. Chip December 11th, 2009 at 4:43 pm

    White Sox want Gardner. I want Matt Thornton. Work out a deal, now that they just signed JJ Putz.

    Royals want Gardner. I want Soria, but of course that’s not happening. Gardner for DeJesus, 29yo lefty who could hit in 2 hole with good LF defensive credentials “might” entice me.
    ————————–

    On the White Sox – I think they’re just going to non-tender Bobby Jenks now that they’ve got Putz and go with Putz and Thornton

    On the Royals – well you’re preaching to the choir on DeJesus.

  95. Wave Your Hat December 11th, 2009 at 4:44 pm

    MLBtraderumors mentions Johnny Gomes as a possible non-tender. There’s an interesting possibility if the Yanks are looking to save some money.

  96. murphydog December 11th, 2009 at 4:44 pm

    Here we go again with the Hoffman talk.

    What in the world makes anyone think this Rule 5 guy is going to be a Yankee Opening Day, regular DH or CF? Seriously. He couldn’t make the Dodgers 25 man but he’s ready to be a Yankee CF or DH in 2010?

  97. sab December 11th, 2009 at 4:44 pm

    CC,Hals,AJ,Joba,Hughes,Chapman/Banuelos/Brackman/Bettances/
    Vizcaino/DJ Mitch/Warren/Ortiz/Phelps etc….get the point

    ———————————————————

    the number of “starters” that you have listed above alone should mean that the yankees need to trade a few more of them for established players now (for example joba included in a trade for halladay for 2010 so they will almost be assured of a WS berth)- so that they could win 2 or 3 more WS’s while they still have jeter, mo and posada playing..

    and shame on the nearsighted “prospect huggers” who are crying that the yankees lost kennedey and coke – those are exactly the types of players you trade away for the likes of a granderson…

  98. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2009 at 4:45 pm

    YankeeTrader

    Gardner for Thornton would be a killer trade – but it will probably have to wait until the Yankees add a DH/OF or an OF that pushes Swisher to DH.

  99. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2009 at 4:45 pm

    I do think Gardner is the odd man out.

  100. m December 11th, 2009 at 4:46 pm

    Well, nobody said that Gardner’s perfect. I know there are other center fielders who are considered good center fielders turn the wrong way at times. Shane Victorino is one that comes to mind.

    Speed kills. And yes it can cover some flaws, but it doesn’t mean that players like Gardner can’t play the position well.

  101. DaSaint007 December 11th, 2009 at 4:46 pm

    Chip, you missed my point.

    You have a ‘with’ followed by a ‘could’, followed by a ‘if’.

    I think it’s also possible that with a very strong spring Hoffmann could get a starting role in the OF if Cashman decided to throw all the money at the pitching.

    By your statement, Hoffmann would have to have the strong spring to win a starting role in the OF. But Cashman would have ALREADY thrown ‘all the money at the pitching’.

    I think you’re saying that IF Cashman throws all the money at pitching, then there would be no more resources to address the OF, THEN Hoffmann, in competition with Gardy and Melky, COULD beat someone out for a starting role.

  102. Chip December 11th, 2009 at 4:46 pm

    What in the world makes anyone think this Rule 5 guy is going to be a Yankee Opening Day, regular DH or CF? Seriously. He couldn’t make the Dodgers 25 man but he’s ready to be a Yankee CF or DH in 2010?
    ————————————

    Dan Uggla, Johan Santana, Shane Victorino, Josh Hamilton – it doesn’t happen often but it does happen.

  103. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes December 11th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    Ok, I agree with you that he is not fully using his abilities but you have asserted here yourself that he gets to balls, he just uses too much energy to do it. As long as he gets to them, and does it better than 95% of baseball, he is an elite CFer.
    Just going by pure production and not skills/whatever.
    The next step for him is to get practice on a major league field and mix his brain with his speed, because then he can join guys like Guiterrez at the top of the best.
    ============

    No, I haven’t said that. He gets to balls east-west. But ironically, he has been known to PLAY himself away from catchable balls, tearing up the field, and not putting himself in position to make the play.

    And you’re asking me to take a leap of faith or assume that the mixing of brain and legs is inevitable.

    I regard “getting a good jump” as something of a talent.. You can improve your reads and learn the angles, but a good jump is a eye-neurological brain talent, IMO.

    Well, one can always hold out hope, I suppose.

  104. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 4:49 pm

    Ok but by fielding measures he is better than 95% of baseball, so unless he declines greatly with a bigger sample, I’m comfortable saying Gardner is the best CFer on our roster *right now*

  105. crawdaddy December 11th, 2009 at 4:49 pm

    I have a hard time believing that the White Sox will trade their only reliable left-handed reliever for Gardner.

  106. no.27 December 11th, 2009 at 4:49 pm

    “I think Hoffmann could wrest the job from him and send Melky to the bench”

    Hoffman, the guy with 24 ML plate appearances?

  107. sab December 11th, 2009 at 4:50 pm

    Wave Your Hat
    December 11th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
    MLBtraderumors mentions Johnny Gomes as a possible non-tender. There’s an interesting possibility if the Yanks are looking to save some money.
    ———————————————————
    or they can just look into if charles manson is available and save boatloads of money – johnny gomes may be THAT crazy..

  108. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes December 11th, 2009 at 4:50 pm

    m,

    For your sake, I hope Brett Gardner becomes a megastar and the next coming of Andruw Jones. :D

  109. m December 11th, 2009 at 4:50 pm

    randy l,

    Are you telling me that Phil was only stretched out to throw 45 pitches?

  110. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 4:50 pm

    Hoffman, the guy with 24 ML plate appearances?

    Gotta start somewhere. If he can show more in his playtime than Melky has been able to show in his 1000 MLB PA’s, I’d say ‘go get em Hoffman!’

  111. Chip December 11th, 2009 at 4:51 pm

    I think you’re saying that IF Cashman throws all the money at pitching, then there would be no more resources to address the OF, THEN Hoffmann, in competition with Gardy and Melky, COULD beat someone out for a starting role.

    Yes, that’s what I’m saying.

    But what I’m also saying is that if there is any scenario in which the Yankees head to Tampa with Melky as a starting outfielder (for example, Damon is brought in as the DH and the OF on paper is Melky, Granderson, Swisher) then Hoffmann will have a shot at winning Melky’s spot.

  112. Chip December 11th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    Hoffman, the guy with 24 ML plate appearances?

    Brett Gardner won the CF job from Melky in spring training last year – how many plate appearances did he have?

  113. m December 11th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    bodhi,

    I just hope that Gardner can play well enough to stick in the bigs. I like rooting for the underdog, even though no one would mistake my pro teams for underdogs…

  114. murphydog December 11th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    “Dan Uggla, Johan Santana, Shane Victorino, Josh Hamilton – it doesn’t happen often but it does happen.”

    I appreciate your enthusiasm and hope, but it’s just as likely Roy Hobbs walks onto the field in ST and asks if he can work out with the team. Of all the Rule 5 picks at the last, say, 10 winter meetings, those are the only names that turned into gold – 4 names. I’ll even throw in Big Papi and give him the benefit of the doubt on the juice so you’ve got 5 names.

    It’s still a statistically insignificant chance.

  115. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 4:54 pm

    It’s still a statistically insignificant chance.

    Well if we’re going to go by statistics I have some players that might interest you.

  116. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes December 11th, 2009 at 4:55 pm

    OF defense can be tricky to evaluate, because often the point of crisis in the play occurs long before the ball drops in or is caught.

    If you don’t know how to judge this – and I am in no way presuming people here can or can’t – & don’t go to the games a lot, it’s just hard for some to evaluate. The YES camera does not tell the story – it fails at picking up time and space, and the viewer is also prodded by the announcers, color guys’ ideas.

    All this talk about OF defense is making me hungry! Good evening all.

  117. no.27 December 11th, 2009 at 4:56 pm

    “Dan Uggla, Johan Santana, Shane Victorino, Josh Hamilton – it doesn’t happen often but it does happen.”

    Victorino didn’t make the majors as a rule 5 and was eventually reassigned to the Phillies minor league team.

    Hamilton played in like 90 games for the Reds his first year after the rule 5 draft.

    Santana was drafted in 99.

  118. DaSaint007 December 11th, 2009 at 4:57 pm

    Chip,

    I think anyone has a shot at winning any spot. If Ramiro Pena comes into ST and hits .700, has amazing defense, and develops an even stronger arm, he may become the starting SS over Jeter in 2010.

    But it’s not likely to happen.

    Hoffmann, should he remain on the roster in ST, has a chance to compete. IMO, I don’t think it likely that he wins a spot over Melky, but it’s not impossible. Just unlikely.

    I think it more likely that the Yankees seek an established LF before they let a Rule 5 pick become the starting LF just months after being acquired.

  119. Jeremy December 11th, 2009 at 4:58 pm

    Are some of you talking about Gardner for Matt Thorton ?

  120. Betsy -high on pie December 11th, 2009 at 4:58 pm

    Chad, I think we struck gold here…..thanks for posting! Granderson is going to fit in great with this team and I’ll bet that he improves with Long’s tutelage.

  121. murphydog December 11th, 2009 at 4:59 pm

    “I think it more likely that the Yankees seek an established LF before they let a Rule 5 pick become the starting LF just months after being acquired.”

    That’s better. I mean no disrespect to The Hoff, but being a Rule 5 pick is not exactly a merit award.

  122. Betsy -high on pie December 11th, 2009 at 5:02 pm

    The Yankees are not signing Lackey – I just don’t see much interest on their part

  123. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 5:04 pm

    PlayerFX is going to revolutionize outfield defensive metrics (and infield ones!) because we’ll be able to see just how and how far a player ran to get to each ball

  124. champ809 December 11th, 2009 at 5:04 pm

    “Cameron would be wasted in RF in Yankee Stadium, the value of his range would be diminished.”

    actually not necessarily as the fact that he could cover more territory in right center allows you to shade your CF’er slightly more to left so that he covers more ground in left center and thereby improves the range of your LF in this case let’s say it’s Melky/Gardner who would already be giving you GG caliber LF defense. Cameron also by the way would have the best outfield arm of the 5 guys on the team and like i said he played the hell out of RF in Shea(watched him with my own eyes and the eye told you that he was a better defensive OF-er than Beltran who’s great also).
    It aint rocket science!

  125. Tim December 11th, 2009 at 5:05 pm

    We handed Joba a spot in the rotation last year and he came in out of shape.

    I doubt Cashman hands either of the kids 2 spots in the rotation again.

  126. Erin December 11th, 2009 at 5:05 pm

    Betsy -high on pie
    December 11th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
    The Yankees are not signing Lackey – I just don’t see much interest on their part

    ********************
    I think you’re right, which is a good thing since I can’t stand the guy. LOL

  127. no.27 December 11th, 2009 at 5:06 pm

    “Brett Gardner won the CF job from Melky in spring training last year – how many plate appearances did he have?”

    About 7 times more than Hoffman. Come on. There’s no reason to think this guy is going to be starting for the Yankees next season.

  128. Chip December 11th, 2009 at 5:07 pm

    “I think it more likely that the Yankees seek an established LF before they let a Rule 5 pick become the starting LF just months after being acquired.”

    That’s better. I mean no disrespect to The Hoff, but being a Rule 5 pick is not exactly a merit award.
    —————————

    Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think an open competition between Hoffmann and Melky would be anyone’s first choice, let alone mine, I’m just saying that Melky doesn’t (or shouldn’t) have a stranglehold on any position and if he’s the assumed starter for one then there is a chance, however slight, that he could lose it.

    Murph – I agree that most Rule V picks don’t turn into much, even if they stick with the club (Josh Phelps) but the Yankees went out of their way to bring this kid aboard. If they didn’t think this guy had some chops then they would have likely dealt Bruney for a player who they could have stashed in the minors. There must be some method to their madness I would think.

  129. Doreen December 11th, 2009 at 5:07 pm

    A player can work on his weaknesses and have a chance to overcome them – but by definition instinct can’t be learned. So, while Gardner may not have the best instincts, you can hope that he is able to work hard enough on the right skill set to compensate.

    I think Gardner’s speed fools a lot of people, and also helps him do things he would otherwise have trouble doing. But I also see he has not, on the offensive side of things, tried to capitalize on his speed by learning to bunt for more base hits.

    All that said, when he went down with his injury last season, I felt he had improved a great deal and was starting to do things really very well. He was set back quite a bit by that injury. I think he is a hard worker, but I am troubled by the fact that he doesn’t bunt and he doesn’t seem to get good reads on pitchers when he’s out there to steal. Really, really good base runners will steal EVEN when the whole ballpark knows that’s what he’s going to do. Gardner is too tentative, I think.

  130. carl December 11th, 2009 at 5:07 pm

    Jorge Posada on Michael Kay

  131. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    Through 85 games before injury Brett put up this line:

    .275 .354 .400 .754 with almost as many walks as K’s.

    He then hit .250 .308 .292 .599 after injury.

    I think pre-hand injury Brett is the best CFer on the team not named Curtis Granderson.

  132. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 5:11 pm

    I don’t like selective end points that don’t begin or end with a serious injury, but from May 1st to injury:

    Brett Gardner: .298 .393 .454 .847

    >:)

  133. H-Town December 11th, 2009 at 5:12 pm

    Go after Escobar or Duch if you want a reclamation project. Those guys have done excellent our of the bullpen AND in the rotation. Dusch made the All-Star team as a reliever and starter.

    Sheets is not signing here to be depth. If you sign him, he is in the rotation unless he is hurt, and one of the kids is bumped out.

  134. Wave Your Hat December 11th, 2009 at 5:12 pm

    “actually not necessarily as the fact that he could cover more territory in right center allows you to shade your CF’er slightly more to left”

    True perhaps but doesn’t come close to making up for the overall restricted space in RF due to the short fence. And the arm doesn’t come close to making up for the wasted range,

    In NYS, like most places, you want your best range in center, second best in LF, third best in RF.

  135. Jeremy December 11th, 2009 at 5:14 pm

    Tim
    You were the same guy that agreed with Fred about trading A.J. for Manny. Just for that I can’t take what your saying seriously.

  136. Nick in SF December 11th, 2009 at 5:15 pm

    Is Hoffmann’s Hall of Fame induction speech out on Blu-Ray yet or just regular dvd?

  137. Doreen December 11th, 2009 at 5:16 pm

    But Gardner was a platoon player, pretty much strictly. And even right before the injury, I believe Melky was starting to get more playing time (but I could very well be wrong about that).

    Let’s just say neither Brett Gardner nor Melky Cabrera is perfect. Each has flaws in his game. Everyone seems to have a preference and can find statistics to back up their opinions which are refuted by the other side. It’s a no-win that is actually not a bad situation for the Yankees to have had last season. :)

  138. UpState December 11th, 2009 at 5:16 pm

    Jerkface
    December 11th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
    Through 85 games before injury Brett put up this line:

    .275 .354 .400 .754 with almost as many walks as K’s.

    He then hit .250 .308 .292 .599 after injury.

    I think pre-hand injury Brett is the best CFer on the team not named Curtis Granderson.
    ========================================

    Taking cuteness out of the equation – this is a bullseye.

    (but the cuteness factor is a strong and overwhelming factor with many)

  139. Kyle December 11th, 2009 at 5:16 pm

    Cameron.. too many strikeouts.

    Pass.

  140. DaSaint007 December 11th, 2009 at 5:18 pm

    Betsy,

    I’ve got to agree with you, for now.
    Randy Wolf was overpaid at virtually 3 years/$30MM.
    Rich Harden getting $7.5MM base, with $3.5MM in incentives.
    Brad Penny signed for 1 year/$7.5MM
    Brandon freaking Lyon got $15MM over 3 years – $5M/per.
    Our own Andy Pettitte got 1 year, $11.75MM

    Ben Sheets is probably going to ask for at least Rich Harden money. I think if Lackey were to drop to between $13-$15/year for 4 years, they Yankees would consider it.

    But I think they should look at Erik Bedard also. He’s had a checkered past, and is recovering from injury also, but he’s a Lefty, which is always valuable, has a lifetime 3.71 ERA, is a strikeout pitcher, which the Yankees always love, and has pitched in the AL East previously. Risky, sure, but probably cheaper than Harden.

  141. carl December 11th, 2009 at 5:19 pm

    Posada said he doesn’t want a rotating DH. He wants Matsui and Damon back.

  142. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 5:20 pm

    But Gardner was a platoon player, pretty much strictly. And even right before the injury, I believe Melky was starting to get more playing time (but I could very well be wrong about that).

    Even as a platoon player he still hit .290 vs lefties, and hit .330 vs lefties in the minors in 2008.

  143. Russell December 11th, 2009 at 5:20 pm

    The Manny-AJ trade was not terrible from a player standpoint. The problem is that the Dodgers would never do it.

    If you get out from AJ’s contract, you could probably sign Lackey who is better than AJ for a cheaper contract. Basically, we get out from his contract and get 1 yr of Manny while signing Lackey.

    But it should have never been entertained because there is no way the Dodgers would do it.

  144. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 5:21 pm

    Posada said he doesn’t want a rotating DH. He wants Matsui and Damon back.

    Posada is usually a big dumb traditionalist moron* when it comes to baseball strategy, but I agree whole heartedly. WTG Posada.

    *dur i’m posada put hughes and joba in the bullpen blah blah bla hblah bllsjdgg

  145. Nick in SF December 11th, 2009 at 5:22 pm

    If Damon wants to be a Yankee again he’d better sign before the HoffmannFX data comes in.

  146. m December 11th, 2009 at 5:22 pm

    I realize that Gardner doesn’t reach the high standards of playing CF that some would like, but I think the staff is more than satisfied that he can field the position. I think the scouts on other teams would be satisfied that he can field the position.

    Gardner’s true weakness is his bat, which to be fair, might not be fully developed. If Gardner was an average to good hitter with (any) pop, I think he’d be the regular center fielder. You know barring any trades for studs like Curtis Granderson.

  147. Ez Rep December 11th, 2009 at 5:22 pm

    Gardner is a spark plug, he can bunt for base hits, is patient, can spray the ball to all fields, etc.

    Melky does nothing better than him accept having a stronger arm and hitting a couple extra HRs…

  148. Rishi December 11th, 2009 at 5:23 pm

    carl
    December 11th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
    Posada said he doesn’t want a rotating DH. He wants Matsui and Damon back.
    =================

    Probably thinks he’d end up there more than he would want ;)

  149. champ809 December 11th, 2009 at 5:23 pm

    Again with the strikeouts!
    Having watched Cameron play ALOT i long ago made the observation that the majority of his K’s come when he bats with the bases empty. He tends to have unproductive ABs when he’s leading off an inning or no one is on base.

    When he batted with men on or risp he was a much better hitter and typically did damage in those spots. Granted he was a lil younger at the time but I always saw Cam as a money player for that reason and wouldn’t be scared off by his K’s totals as i think that that trend with him would continue and he’d be a very productive hitter for us at the bottom of the lineup when it mattered most. That and the fact that it’s a 1yr commitment with him.

  150. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 5:23 pm

    Melky does nothing better than him accept having a stronger arm and hitting a couple extra HRs…

    ==

    I dunno, he is a better sprayer to all porn stars.

  151. murphydog December 11th, 2009 at 5:23 pm

    “If they didn’t think this guy had some chops then they would have likely dealt Bruney for a player who they could have stashed in the minors. There must be some method to their madness I would think.”

    Sure. He’s intriguing to them. That’s it. They are trying to catch lightning in a bottle. They picked up Angel Berroa last year from the Dodgers too didn’t they? And it went exactly nowhere. The Hoff could be great, but on the evidence to date, chances are he won’t be. I wouldn’t even pencil him in. Still, I wish him the best.

  152. Rob NY -- 2009 The Road to Redemption December 11th, 2009 at 5:24 pm

    “Gardner is a spark plug, he can bunt for base hits, is patient, can spray the ball to all fields, etc.

    Don’t sell him short! Some may say he is the best bunter in the league!

  153. murphydog December 11th, 2009 at 5:24 pm

    “Is Hoffmann’s Hall of Fame induction speech out on Blu-Ray yet or just regular dvd?”

    Oh Nick, you are a caution!

  154. Mark 21 December 11th, 2009 at 5:26 pm

    Gardner did hit a HR at Citi Field… that has to count for something, right?

  155. Nick in SF December 11th, 2009 at 5:26 pm

    Gardner has already won the Bunty McBunterson Bunting Title — in my imagination.

  156. Seven December 11th, 2009 at 5:28 pm

    Gardner played very good defense this past year. He made a lot of catches in left center and right center that most centerfielders couldn’t get too.

    He is definitely not the smoothiest outfielder and he needs to get a little better going back on balls. But that can come with more experience in center.

  157. Gator December 11th, 2009 at 5:29 pm

    Someone please find me some sabremetrical data that shows how many times Cameron or anyone else strikes out in situations where it is a situation for a productive out to be made (Runner on 3rd, 1 out, runner on 2nd, no outs etc.) in comparison to someone like Melky? Is there a “productive out” chart somewhere?

  158. Twister December 11th, 2009 at 5:31 pm

    Our ideal team has

    A rotation at DH with mainly Damon taking it
    Melky in left when Damon DHs, but mostly as a 4th OF but a guy who gets in over 100 games.

    Gardner as a 4th OF and defensive replacement for Swisher and pinch runner.

    So an OF of Melky/Gardner—-Granderson—–Swisher

    With Damon mostly at DH.

  159. m December 11th, 2009 at 5:32 pm

    Where’s Jack Curry? Sherman’s very upset with the Times.

  160. champ809 December 11th, 2009 at 5:32 pm

    If I were Brett Gardner I’d be in AZ right now hanging out with Swish and Long and working with Kevin on using my lower half more in my swing to drive the ball more and smooth out my swing plane to improve my line drive rate. If he does that he would be an offensive force in the leadoff spot for us as his power to left would come up along with his avg. closer to .300 with his .obp near .400 he’d steal 60 bases yearly.
    He’s not strong enough upperbody wise to have an “all arms swing”. Same with Melky they should both be right now trying to improve as hitters to take that next step.

  161. Yankee Trader December 11th, 2009 at 5:33 pm

    Gator-

    Have fun digesting these situational stats on Cameron.

    http://www.baseball-reference......9&t=b

  162. RA December 11th, 2009 at 5:33 pm

    Posada doesn’t want a rotation DH because he knows that he will be the main one in that rotation, and he wants to be a catcher.

  163. Rishi December 11th, 2009 at 5:34 pm

    TylerKepner Look for Yanks to non-tender Chien-Ming Wang Saturday but bring back Melky Cabrera and Chad Gaudin. Not sure about Sergio Mitre.
    6 minutes ago from web

  164. Laura - Bring back Matsui in 2010! December 11th, 2009 at 5:34 pm

    Wow, that Joe Posnanski guy has a serious man crush on Granderson. I hope he lives up to Joe’s hype.

    Posada is right. No rotating DH. Bring back Matsui!! And Damon (with less feeling). :P

  165. 7*7 December 11th, 2009 at 5:34 pm

    m,

    He accepted a buyout from the NY Times.

  166. David December 11th, 2009 at 5:36 pm

    Re Cameron: The Yanks now have 4 center-fielders. Why would they pick up a fifth?

  167. Mike December 11th, 2009 at 5:36 pm

    SI_JonHeyman

    doubting #redsox go 5 years for bay. #mariners focused on pitching, #angels on halladay. if #mets make it 5, maybe they win
    44 minutes ago from web

  168. m December 11th, 2009 at 5:37 pm

    7,

    Does he have a landing spot yet?

  169. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 5:37 pm

    Someone please find me some sabremetrical data that shows how many times Cameron or anyone else strikes out in situations where it is a situation for a productive out to be made (Runner on 3rd, 1 out, runner on 2nd, no outs etc.) in comparison to someone like Melky? Is there a “productive out” chart somewhere?

    Man on 1st
    Melky .268 .318 .358 .675 , 9% K rate, 8% GIDP rate
    Cameron .249 .333 .434 .767 , 23% K Rate, 4% GIDP rate

    Man on 3rd LT 2 Outs
    Melky .406 .430 .515 .944 , 11% K rate, 12% SF rate
    Cameron .304 .370 .509 .879 , 21% K rate, 12% SF rate

  170. Betsy - high on pie December 11th, 2009 at 5:37 pm

    I don’t like Gardner for anything more than a 5th OF or PR. He can’t even pinch run that well -there were at least two times where he was inserted as a pinch runner and he didn’t bother to steal. He’s fast, but he has zero instincts……

    Jack Curry took a buy out from the Times.

  171. Betsy - high on pie December 11th, 2009 at 5:38 pm

    Angels are pushing for Doc. The Yankees are not getting him….I wonder if A.A. will give Cash the chance for him to match or go over like he asked.

  172. Banjo December 11th, 2009 at 5:39 pm

    A bench of

    Gardner-Pena-Cervelli-Hoffmann

    makes me cry.

    A far cry from Molina-Hinske-Hairston-Gardner. And if Cashman is serious about rotating the DH (which is a dumb idea to begin with), he better have a strong bench to do so. Not guys like Hoffman or Pena in the lineup multiple times a week.

  173. Seven December 11th, 2009 at 5:41 pm

    murphydog
    December 11th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
    Here we go again with the Hoffman talk.

    What in the world makes anyone think this Rule 5 guy is going to be a Yankee Opening Day, regular DH or CF? Seriously. He couldn’t make the Dodgers 25 man but he’s ready to be a Yankee CF or DH in 2010?

    ———————————–

    Thats similar to what an anonymous Dodgers executive said in Joel Sherman’s blog. He basically said Hoffmann has holes in his swings and isn’t ready and good enough right now to make the yanks 25 man. So they expect to get him back and put him back in there minor league system.

  174. MTU December 11th, 2009 at 5:42 pm

    Did anyone else know that the Redsox have already offered Chapman 15.5 million ? – MLBTR

  175. Carl D. December 11th, 2009 at 5:43 pm

    Let’s put it this way. If one of our OF’ers went down for an extended period of time, would you rather have Gardner/Hoffman or Melky filling in for them?

    Melky has proven he is a major league player. Maybe not a starter, but he can hit ML pitching and give you a competent AB and fill in fine for an extended period of time without being exposed. Gardner has not shown that. Half a season of hitting .270 doesn’t show that. Melky has 4 years as a body of work.

    Melky is a better player and he should be the 4th OF. Use Pena as a pinch runner or something if we need one.

  176. Russell December 11th, 2009 at 5:47 pm

    If the Sox offered that much to Chapman… he is going to Boston. Who else is going to offer more for a raw, unproven talent with maturity issues?

    Good move for the Sox if they get him. Lefties who throw 100 MPH don’t grow on trees. Looks like that “dead” money from Lowell, Wagner, etc. isin’t affecting them too much.

  177. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 5:48 pm

    Melky has 4 years as a body of work.

    Most of it terrible.

  178. no.27 December 11th, 2009 at 5:48 pm

    “A far cry from Molina-Hinske-Hairston-Gardner. And if Cashman is serious about rotating the DH (which is a dumb idea to begin with), he better have a strong bench to do so. Not guys like Hoffman or Pena in the lineup multiple times a week.”

    Here’s the thing with the Yankees bench and the rotating DH idea. The Yankees can set it up so that there is never more than 1 weak hitter in the lineup.

    Once or twice a week Posada takes a day off at catcher and DH’s, Damon plays LF, Cervelli hits 9th.

    Jeter needs a day at DH, Damon goes to LF, Jeter DH’s Pena hits 9th. Same with A-Rod.

    I do think they should have a slugger on the bench, but they really won’t get much action with the starters that the Yankees put out there.

  179. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 5:50 pm

    Here’s the thing with the Yankees bench and the rotating DH idea. The Yankees can set it up so that there is never more than 1 weak hitter in the lineup.

    All of your playoff games will feature cervelli or pena, pass.

  180. SJ44 December 11th, 2009 at 5:50 pm

    An offer to his old agent is meaningless now that the Hendricks Brothers represent him.

    That’s a non-story.

  181. Al D December 11th, 2009 at 5:53 pm

    Hoffmann = Josh Phelps

    Don’t get rid of proven performers like Melky and Gardner for this AAA scrub…

    Granderson doesn’t need a caddy. How many times a year are we going to face a hard throwing tough lefty like Lester or Price? No need to have a bum on the roster just for that….

  182. MTU December 11th, 2009 at 5:53 pm

    Do you think the yankees will wind up with chapman SJ ?

  183. Yankee Trader December 11th, 2009 at 5:53 pm

    Wish list for the Red Sox:

    Lowell trade goes thru to Texas, along with 9M.
    Beltre signed by Sox at big $$$$$ for 3rd.
    Bay goes to Mets and Holliday stays with Cardinals, leaving LF to Hermida or Youklis with Kotchman then at 1st.

  184. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 5:54 pm

    The Yankees need someone who can sit at DH for 90% of the games played next season. Posada is not DHing 2 games a week, thats insanity. Nor is A-rod or Jeter or Cano or Texeira or anyone getting 1 day off a week, or 1 day off every 2 weeks.

    There are already too many days off in the season anyways.

    When the yankees get to the playoffs, they will need an ‘A+ lineup’ to throw out every game.

    That means, all your best position players: Granderson in CF or LF, our LF in LF or Cameron/whomever in CF, Posada at C, A-rod and everyone at their positions, and then a DH that is not a bench player.

    Rotating DH’s are such a crock.

  185. TD 4 December 11th, 2009 at 5:59 pm

    Would not be shocked at all if Damon ends up in Boston if they lost out on Bay.

  186. m December 11th, 2009 at 6:01 pm

    If it’s a choice of paying Gardner $400K or Melky $2-3M to be the 4OF this season, then the choice is easy. GGBG.

  187. champ809 December 11th, 2009 at 6:01 pm

    That’s why Miranda is perfect for the “primary” dh role….

    he’s already on the roster and costing us 545k

    he’s LH LEGIT power hitting/rbi guy whos’ performed at an all star level at every level but the majors.

    he has a career ops vs. rhp over .950 which is elite.

    imo he’d hit 20homers for us next year with 400-450abs…

    and if you want to sit him against tough lefty then DH Posada on that day and catch Velli or DH Jeet and play Pena but as the primary DH bat playing against rhp he’d get about 450 abs and I think he’d be very productive(.280-.290/20hrs/80-90rbis in the lower part of the lineup.

  188. Yankee Trader December 11th, 2009 at 6:02 pm

    White Sox GM states that no plan to nontender Jenks-to stay at closer and focus now on offense.

  189. G-C December 11th, 2009 at 6:02 pm

    If the Yankees aren’t going to let Chamberlain and Hughes start now, then when will they? Will they perpetually be saying, “oh, let’s get some veteran depth,” or “oh, we can’t go into the rotation with two kids?”

    The fact is, they aren’t kids anymore. And if we don’t find out if they have what it takes on this level soon, we never will, and we’ll be wasting the two best young arms that have come up through this system in a very long time.

  190. UpState December 11th, 2009 at 6:02 pm

    “…Melky has 4 years as a body of work….”

    …and his statistics (marginal at best) make hinm look much better that reality (actually watching the games) !!!

  191. UpState December 11th, 2009 at 6:04 pm

    Yankee Trader
    December 11th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
    White Sox GM states that no plan to nontender Jenks-to stay at closer and focus now on offense.
    ————————-
    …anything more on Matt Thornton ???

    Ready to pack Melky and/or Gardner for him !!!

    (probably need a bit more)

  192. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 6:05 pm

    That’s why Miranda is perfect for the “primary” dh role….

    I really doubt the yankees go with Miranda as the primary DH. He has 1 more year to impress the Yankees, before his options run out.

    If he hits lefties enough like he did last season I could see them going with him mid season on the bench and then transition him in next year.

    But cold turkey? I don’t think so.

    I do like Miranda, but not at DH next season.

  193. Yankee Trader December 11th, 2009 at 6:06 pm

    champ809-

    So if given a chance Miranda might produce like countryman- Kendry Morales?

  194. Betsy - high on pie December 11th, 2009 at 6:07 pm

    They offered him a contract without even seeing him pitch ? I thought Chapman was supposed to pitch in front of a few teams next week…..I really don’t think the Yankees are that interested.

  195. Betsy - high on pie December 11th, 2009 at 6:09 pm

    My comment still holds…..the Sox made an offer before they saw him pitch?

  196. Yankee Trader December 11th, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    Matt Thornton and Hughes were the two best setup guys in the AL last year. GM stated on XM Radio that Jenks was still the closer with Thornton and Putz as setup guys, and I heard earlier that Thornton lobbied for Putz.

    Wish we could get Thornton but doubt he’s being moved as their only reliable lefty in the pen.

  197. MTU December 11th, 2009 at 6:12 pm

    Yes Betsy but with his old agent and different operating conditions. SJ says( and he ought to know) that with a new agent involved that offer would not be valid. At least, that’s what i thought SJ was saying (dont want to put words in his mouth).

  198. Yankee Trader December 11th, 2009 at 6:12 pm

    Looking forward to seeing the nontender list tomorrow for some new discussion on the blog.

    Good night for now.

  199. UpState December 11th, 2009 at 6:14 pm

    Yankee Trader
    December 11th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
    Matt Thornton and Hughes were the two best setup guys in the AL last year. GM stated on XM Radio that Jenks was still the closer with Thornton and Putz as setup guys, and I heard earlier that Thornton lobbied for Putz.

    Wish we could get Thornton but doubt he’s being moved as their only reliable lefty in the pen.

    =============================
    Thornton. Real Deal.
    FA soon ???
    Worth trying to extracate from White Sox.
    Maybe he’ll annoy Ozzie somehow.

  200. TD 4 December 11th, 2009 at 6:14 pm

    Why would the agent-switch change the way they value Chapman? Do they value him less with a new agent?

  201. Phil December 11th, 2009 at 6:14 pm

    If the White Sox GM is saying they’re gonna non-tender Jenks, it’s because he’s working on a trade. We’ll see what happens at the deadline.

  202. Mark December 11th, 2009 at 6:16 pm

    Bring back Matsui.

    Sign Cameron for LF

    Melky and Gardner on the bench along with Pena and Cervelli. Send Hoffmann back to the Giants.

    Go for #28

  203. MTU December 11th, 2009 at 6:16 pm

    TD 4-
    You’d have to get SJ to explain that one. He made the comment earlier about the old agent and the offer.

  204. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 6:17 pm

    Why would the agent-switch change the way they value Chapman? Do they value him less with a new agent?

    It just means the outstanding offer was with the old agent, they’d have to file a new offer for the new agent. It could be the same price, but doesn’t mean the new agent would advise he take it

  205. Erin December 11th, 2009 at 6:17 pm

    carl
    December 11th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
    Posada said he doesn’t want a rotating DH. He wants Matsui and Damon back.

    *********************
    Go Posada!! You tell ‘em.

  206. MTU December 11th, 2009 at 6:21 pm

    Well Posada can dream can’t he ? IMO I do not think they are adding Damon, Matsui, and a Pitcher – too expensive. I dont think Damon is going to come down enough in price. Matsui or Damon and more importantly another Pitcher.

  207. randy l. December 11th, 2009 at 6:22 pm

    “Are you telling me that Phil was only stretched out to throw 45 pitches?”

    m-

    yeah, no one in northern triple a that year was stretched out at the time hughes started for the yankees because of the weather. that’s what people forget about that spring. it was horrible.

    i just had the good fortune to be visiting a friend managing the twins triple a team and saw firsthand how far behind garza was. hughes started for the yankees a few days later. i knew he’d be lucky to go 75 pitches max .

    he just wasn’t in shape to go 90 pitches which is what you’d like to see. i watched closely and for quite a few starts his velocity dropped off a lot after 45 pitches. he just simply wasn’t ready to pitch in the majors at that time and he never quite caught up..

    his arm and body were simply not in shape.

    it’s water over the dam because he looks ready now .

  208. Jerkface December 11th, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    His velocity wasn’t there in his start vs Toronto but in Texas it was warm and he was popping the mitt at 92-94 all night. Even in the 7th when he got injured.

  209. MTU December 11th, 2009 at 6:29 pm

    Randy-
    What are your thoughts on this year’s rotation. Do you think the Yankees need another starter for depth, or are they good to go with Joba and Phil ? Also, who do think is more likely to stick in the starting rotation this year Joba or Phil ?

  210. Mark December 11th, 2009 at 6:29 pm

    Thorton-Putz-Jenks is a sick, sick setup core.

  211. DT - OPPC member December 11th, 2009 at 6:38 pm

    I think Matsui will re-sign with the Yanks. Where else will he go?

    Forget Chicago –
    A paper wife will not go over that well in middle America.
    Plus it’s the windy city – Mrs. Matsui might end up in the middle of Lake Michigan.

    Forget the West Coast –
    Translator Roger Kahlon was given the key to the city at the World Series ceremony. He’s not leaving a city where he has a key and move 3000 miles away. Plus, Matsui and Kahlon are joined at the hip. When Matsui’s knee gets drained, Roger feels the pain too.

    Forget returning to Japan –
    It was hard enough to get that adult material and videos past the customs agent when he came here, he’s not going through that again.

  212. BJK December 11th, 2009 at 6:48 pm

    Can someone explain to me why Boston would want to pay Mike Lowell $9 million to play for the Rangers? Serious question.

  213. vinny-b December 11th, 2009 at 6:50 pm

    “Forget Chicago –
    A paper wife will not go over that well in middle America.
    Plus it’s the windy city – Mrs. Matsui might end up in the middle of Lake Michigan”
    —————————————————–

    DT: you really have a gift. Hilarious

  214. MTU December 11th, 2009 at 6:51 pm

    How else were they going to clear the decks for Beltre and aquire their 3rd defenseless catcher.

  215. vinny-b December 11th, 2009 at 6:51 pm

    lol at the xxx/customs line too :)

  216. randy l. December 11th, 2009 at 6:55 pm

    mtu-

    i like the 9 starter depth the yankees have that sj44 talked about the other day. i wish the yankees had a better #2 , but burnett may get more consistent and be better in that role.

    i think hughes is ready to start and will have a good year, maybe 12-8 , 13-9 or so.
    with joba it all depends on the meetings he had with himself this past winter. if he worked really hard and recommitted to being in mlb shape than i think he could be good too.

    if joba just relaxes this winter and plans to get by on talent alone., i think he’s better suited for the bullpen.

    i like aceves if joba doesn’t start. he could get the # 4 or 5 job done. gaudin isn’t bad either in that role.

    i think they can get to the playoffs no problem with what they have. the question is will they have a really good #2 starter for the 2010 postseason. they need someone better than aj was in 2009. they got lucky with pettitte rolling the table in his starts.

    and in aj’s defense. he pitched some good postseason games. he just wasn’t consistent.

  217. Mark in Tampa December 11th, 2009 at 6:57 pm

    That is a good question re: Lowell. Especially since you figure he would have to be healthy enough to pass a physical to be traded. I know teams can get anybody to pass these exams if they really want the deal to go through regardless, but why would Texas want him at any price if he is not healthy?

    -Boston has no solid 3rd base option now. Beltre is rumored but far from certain.
    -Maybe they go cheap, putting Youkilis at third and Kotchman/Vmart at first. Use Vmart/Varitek/Ramirez to catch.
    -Maybe they are clearing room for an Adrian Gonzalez move, or another top 1st baseman. It just seems very risky to do so when a major deal like that can fall through at any time for a million different reasons. Especially when nothing is on the table now, that we know about.
    -They must really think Lowell is done, he was a major pain to the Yankees, great defender, and apparently a very good teammate, leader, and clubhouse guy.

  218. MTU December 11th, 2009 at 7:02 pm

    Randy-
    Thanks I value your opinion. What would you think of the Yanks getting Sheets, and moving Joba Phil to the pen for part of the year ?

  219. MTU December 11th, 2009 at 7:03 pm

    Mark-
    I think you answered your own question.

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    The deal that the Rays did to get closer Rafael Soriano certainly does not make them favorites to win the AL East but they’re ahead of Boston if they regain even some of their 2008 magic. They still need to fill a catching situation.

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    I know Woods is top non grata here, but he’s taking an indefinite break. Can’t say I feel sorry for him at all, but golf will suffer until he’s back.

    I can’t believe the Post has a Tiger Blog where you can check for scandal updates. That’s so trashy.

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  224. hardwired December 11th, 2009 at 7:22 pm

    I’m glad Figgins signed early w/the M’s. He would have presented an interesting dynamic to the Red Sox had he signed there.

    Timing really is everything.

  225. Mike Ri December 11th, 2009 at 7:26 pm

    Just finished listening to Cashmans interview on WFAN.

    Seems like he wants another starter.

  226. Mark in Tampa December 11th, 2009 at 7:27 pm

    m,

    This whole thing with Tiger seems very much like the Arod drama with his personal life seemingly spiralling out of control in the months leading up to the steroid admission.

    oops… did I just leak the next Tiger scandal?

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