In appreciation of CMW
Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Dec 13, 2009 
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You knew right from the beginning that Chien-Ming Wang was tough. I remember back in spring training of 2005, before Wang had even made the majors, a day when he had had to go on a “punishment run” after making a mistake during a fielding drill. As was the custom, Wang was allowed to pick a teammate go join him on the lap and most Yankees expected the young pitcher to pick another minor-leaguer.
Wang picked Randy Johnson.
Now sure, Wang knew Johnson a little from having trained with him in Phoenix, but still – picking one of the greatest pitchers of all time to join you in extra running? I recall John Flaherty, Jorge Posada and the other veterans being impressed. “That takes some real guts,” Flaherty said at the time.
Wang was part of the “youth movement” that marked the early part of the Yankees season that year, as the team was absolutely brutal over the first few months. Wang made his debut in place of the injured Jaret Wright (!!) at the end of April and less than week later he was joined by Robinson Cano, who was called up during a memorable crisis day in St. Petersburg.
That 2005 season was, in a lot of ways, indicative of what Wang’s career would be like with the Yankees: He pitched well, got a ton of groundballs (19 of the 29 hitters he faced in his debut hit the ball on the ground), got injured – he had a shoulder problem that cost him about two months – and had a decent but unrewarding postseason.
We all know how excellent Wang was over the next two years. Winning 19 games in back-to-back years – especially pitching in the AL East – is an incredible accomplishment, and Wang’s rise, along with Cano’s, was representative of the changing notion that the Yankees young players could be more than just trade chips. Wang had become – if you’ll pardon the self-promotion – a true “Ace in America” story.
That’s what made Wang’s downfall so difficult to watch. He was on his way to a third season as a frontline pitcher, going 5-0 in April of 2008 and was 8-2 when he tore ligaments in his right foot while running the bases against the Astros in July. An AL pitcher suffering a career-altering injury running the bases. It was freakish. And Wang was never the same.
I’m very much not a doctor but it’s generally accepted that Wang’s foot injury led him to alter his pitching mechanics, which led to even more physical problems; he was horrifically bad in 2009 and was finally shut down for shoulder surgery mid-year.
So now he’s gone. Good as he was, I believe the Yankees were right to non-tender Wang last week; paying him $4 million this year made no sense. Signing him back on a minor-league deal seems unlikely, too, since Wang is still ruffled by the the Yankees taking him to an arbitration hearing – over a grand total of $600,000 – in 2008, then crowed about winning. Given the situation now, it’s a shame that happened.
What does his future hold? Wang will surely have offers elsewhere. I’d bet on him ending up with the Dodgers, where Joe Torre (and deputy Larry Bowa) always liked him. Only time will tell if he can revive his devastating sinker.
Whatever happens, I’ll always remember Wang’s time with the Yankees fondly. He was quiet and unassuming, but he was tough. Just ask Randy Johnson.
God, I know where this update is heading. Luckily, I have some football to watch this afternoon.
Over the past few years, Chien-Ming Wang became one of my favorite Yankees. I’m sad that his time with the Yankees is over with. It is what it is.
I wish him the best and all the success in the world.
Thanks for everything CMW.
Even though Cashman said he really wants to add a starting pitcher, if he can’t find one for a fair price he’ll have to pass, leaving plenty of money to make a big splash for a hitter like Holliday.
The debate within the organization probably boils down to the decision to give or not to give Hughes and Joba 2 rotation spots.
From the naked eye perspective of a fan, I think it’s risky to go from CC, Wang, AJ, Andy, Joba, Phil in 2009 to CC, AJ, Andy, Joba, Phil in 2010.
There’s quite a dropoff in the rotation now that Wang is no longer being counted on as a number 2 starter.
I think the Yanks grab Lackey, the Mets get Bay (because they’re stupid), the Sox sign Holliday and the Angels surprise all and get Halladay, the ace they were missing in the 2009 post season. I think Johnny Damon ends up with the ChiSox and Matsui returns to the Yankees on a low dollar 1 year deal.
The only trade I see involves Gardner.
With Lackey adding much needed starting pitching depth, 1 of Joba/Hughes/McAllister could also become available.
Great job, Sam. Wang sure was easy to root for. Just like Matsui, he transcended the language barrier and maintained his dignity in the biggest market with another nation watching his every move. He will be missed.
Letting him go was a dumb move… not resigning him will be a dumber move.
LOL Craw….When I saw the thread title, I groaned.
I still don’t get how Halladay on the Angels with Lackey makes them a stronger contender. Don’t get me wrong – Doc is far better than Lackey and I love and admire him to bits. However, their rotation would consist of Halladay, Weaver, Kazmir………and who else? Kazmir is good, but he’s not the same pitcher and he’s had issues now against the Yanks and Sox, esp. in the post-season. Doc’s primary desire is to go to a team that can win multiple WS – do the Angels give him the best chance at doing that? I don’t think so. Frankly, the Yankees give him the best chance……….
It’s interesting with the Angels that they are pursuing Lackey and Halladay at the same time. If they re-sign Lackey (did the Mets make an offer to him?), will they still push hard for Doc? If they get Doc, will they still push hard for Lackey?
Bret,
I don’t agree with you about Holliday, but one writer says some baseball executives think it’s possible that the Yankees will spend more money than they’re letting on.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/.....1776.story
I remember the gem Wang pitched against the Nationals where he lost in the bottom of the ninth giving up a 2 run homerun.
I remember him tossing his glove in the dugout and showing real emotion and fire.
I want Wang to come back and Cashman needs to make that happen. If you can pay Igawa 4 million to do NOTHING then you can surely pay Chien Ming Wang.
Arbitration is just part of the game – it’s too bad that Wang took it personally. I’ll wish him luck when he moves on……but I’m fine with the decision to non-tender him; doing otherwise makes no sense.
If NYY doesn’t resign Damon and Matsui, I’d like NYY go after Derosa. Beyond that, perhaps a combination of Miranda and Gomes to share the DH spot would work out. Both can hit from the opposite side. Gomes hits left handers but has issues with right handers, and, Miranda’s issues are just the opposite. Neither is especially good defensively, but, could fill in a spot in an emergency.
The Angels dropped some serious payroll and they make the playoffs every year.
Halladay will get his big payday and have a chance to win.
He’s a significant upgrade from Lackey and gives them an ace to win huge games in short series. It’s the one piece they’re missing.
Crawdaddy,
Holliday is possible. If the organization is comfortable with Hughes and Joba manning 2 spots in the rotation, they’ll do it and sign a cheapie reclamation project for starting pitching depth.
From your linked article (thanx BTW):
The Yankees have stayed out of the Holliday market, but would they change their minds if this round of talks leads nowhere for the Cardinals? A lot of rival executives are suspicious of the Yankees’ leaked plans to cut payroll. …
Wang’s record was nice in 08 was he certainly was not having the terrific season some people seem to think he was having.
His ERA that day going into Houston was 4.30
GB7 how are the twins doing?? Are they ready for their first Christmas?
*but he was certainly*
gb7-
i took advantage of you being out of commission to steal your coors while you were out of town.
hope you don’t talk that too personal, but it just seemed like a good opportunity that might not come again.
let’s hope so right.
anyway, i’m actually not as down on eiland as you are. i think he can coach a conventional pitcher just fine. he pushes fastball command like any good pitching coach. he can teach four seam and two seam fastball,slider, change up, cutters, etc.
the thing people miss with eiland coaching wang is that the sinker that wang threw was a trick pitch. no one expects farrell to coach wakefield. it’s the same with wiland and wang and the sinkerball.
i actually don’t hold it against him. he ‘s just not the right pitching coach for wang.
has he helped the rest of the staff? well , he hasn’t hurt because they did win the world
series. it’s hard to get a read on eiland because he doesn’t talk much to the media.
sj44 has pointed out over time that i was underestimating eiland and i’ve come to the conclusion that i was. sometimes it appears that i bash “generic” coaches, but i do have an appreciation for guys that have spent their whole life in the game like eiland has.
eiland was also a member of that billy martin /pinella team and organization that had allen, rhighetti, guidry, john, etc. he has some yankee pedigree in him.
he appears to have done a good job with putting a bullpen together. he hasn’t hurt sabathia or burnett who already knew how to pitch before he came here.
he doesn’t flip me out when advising girardi when to take guys out. i think eiland is probably pretty solid as a pitching coach.
Ervin Santana is another young starter the Angels have… he was injured off and on this year, but he did make the all-star team in 2008 and has a very impressive arm. If he is healthy this year, he could make a big impact for them. He had pretty good numbers after the ASB this year.
They lost Figgins and don’t have Vlad back as of yet……I don’t see how this is team that is set to win multiple WS with Doc and no Lackey. They’re still not a better team than the Yankees. For all the praise they get, the Angels have won ONE WS…………..The way they get talked up, you’d think they’d won 3 or 4 (or even 2).
Funny how they are going to tender Mitre a contract, probably for over $1 million, yet they can’t give that money to Wang who has done 100x more for us….
GB,
I can live with a Gomes/Miranda platoon at DH
Al D
December 13th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Funny how they are going to tender Mitre a contract, probably for over $1 million, yet they can’t give that money to Wang who has done 100x more for us….
—
We don’t have access to his medicals so maybe it’s not so crazy.
great post sam, will def miss the wanger
So rival execs think think the Yankees may go crazy? What a surprise – they always think the Yankees will go crazy spending wise. They still think Hal is a clone of George. I personally think that if the Yankees really want a player, they won’t care if they go a few million over budget….but that is not the same as spending wildly. I don’t think they have any interest in Holliday…
“God, I know where this update is heading. Luckily, I have some football to watch this afternoon.”
crawdaddy-
good, because you never seem to add any information to the conversation, just your opinions.
you know , there’s probably a cut and paste function on your computer.
maybe you should try to learn how it works.
Just reading back some of the other posts, hope everything is okay GB7. Best wishes and feel better.
Wang had a couple of good years but injury is the great equalizer – it makes stars into ordinary folk – so, feelings aside – this was the only move for Cashman to make. Cashman knows his Wang’s medical record – if they try and sign him to an incentive-based contract then perhaps there is hope for Wang to turn it around in pinstripes. If the medical history is bleak then Wang’s career will start over somewhere else.
The trick is to off-load players one year too soon – not one year too late.
“Crawdaddy,
Holliday is possible. If the organization is comfortable with Hughes and Joba manning 2 spots in the rotation, they’ll do it and sign a cheapie reclamation project for starting pitching depth.”
Bret,
Anything is possible especially after what happened last year with Teixeira, but I’m not so sure Cashman views Holliday as that same type of player that he can go back to ownership and plead his case. Anyhow, it should be interesting to see how the next 6 weeks unfolds for the Yankees and the rest of baseball.
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo....._wang.html
On the free-agent front, contrary to reports that the Yankees had made an offer to Johnny Damon, team sources said that was not the case because Damon’s agent, Scott Boras, informed them not to bother unless it was for at least three years and no less than the $13 million salary the left fielder made last year. This is something the Yankees have no intention of doing. Their stance on Damon, which they have relayed to Boras, is that they want him back but are not prepared to go beyond two years at roughly $8 million per
*********
Well, that answers the ? about whether an offer has been made. Goodbye Johnny, it was nice knowing you!
“I don’t agree with you about Holliday, but one writer says some baseball executives think it’s possible that the Yankees will spend more money than they’re letting on.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/…..1776.story ”
thanks you crawdaddy.
i knew you could do it.
“crawdaddy-
good, because you never seem to add any information to the conversation, just your opinions.
you know , there’s probably a cut and paste function on your computer.
maybe you should try to learn how it works.”
Boo hoo, Randy is talking mean to me again even though I linked two different articles in the last hour, but maybe because they weren’t about Wang, they don’t interest him.
Look at the cost cutting so far:
No arbitration offered to Damon, Matsui, Nady, Molina, Pettitte.
Bruney dealt while arbitration eligible and due to earn around 2 mil.
Granderson acquired as a cost-effective CF earning 5.5 mil
Reduced interest in Aroldis Chapman
Unwillingness to sign relievers, letting R. Soriano go to the Rays
Wang non-tendered
I don’t blame ‘rival’ executives for their concern, especially after the precedent sent last year with CC, Tex and AJ.
On the free-agent front, contrary to reports that the Yankees had made an offer to Johnny Damon, team sources said that was not the case
—
Exactly. The 2 year 20 and 2 year 18-19 were lies started by Damon’s agent.
“thanks you crawdaddy.
i knew you could do it.”
Maybe, you should check the prior update when I linked Cafardo’s article too.
S.A.–Serenity Now
December 13th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
GB7 how are the twins doing?? Are they ready for their first Christmas?
————————————————————
Afternoon, S.A. I talked to Morgan (my granddaughter this morning and they kids are doing just fine, thank you. Unfortunately, I can’t be around the kids for awhile. Doctors are afraid I’ll catch a cold or an infection from them. That’s going to make it tough on me. I’ll just have to wait it out and hopefully, by late January or so. They are cute as Hell, though. Good thing they look like me. Lucky kids.
If the Halladay asking price remains too high, and if the Yankees don’t think highly enough of Lackey to pay what he wants, and if Sheets is not fully healthy or too expensive for the risk, I see no reason not to look into Holliday, with a Miranda and regulars serving as the DH.
In Appreciation of Brian Cashman
From Tom Verducci’s column on CNN:
“How sharp are the Yankees operating these days? On the day he handed in his World Series roster before Game 1, New York GM Brian Cashman called Detroit GM Dave Dombrowski, who was so stunned by the timing he had to ask Cashman, on the eve of the World Series, “Why are you calling me?” Even with his team in the World Series, Cashman was beginning his offseason diligence in an attempt to make the Yankees’ outfield younger and more athletic. That conversation with Dombrowski was the start to Curtis Granderson becoming a Yankee. It’s reminiscent of how John Schuerholz ran the Braves in the 1990s, getting a jump on the market and refusing to play the stalking horse in postseason bidding.”
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....z0Zaqy1oOo
Get a free NFL Team Jacket and Tee with SI Subscription
GreenBeret7 December 13th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Afternoon, S.A. I talked to Morgan (my granddaughter this morning and they kids are doing just fine, thank you. Unfortunately, I can’t be around the kids for awhile. Doctors are afraid I’ll catch a cold or an infection from them. That’s going to make it tough on me. I’ll just have to wait it out and hopefully, by late January or so. They are cute as Hell, though. Good thing they look like me. Lucky kids.
==================================
Glad to hear the kids are doing well.
You take care of yourself mister! Ya hear!
Some team is going to get Damon at a bargain some time in January… maybe 1 yr/$8 mil or something… once Boras/Damon realize there was no market for him and they overplayed their hand.
Why would be be platooning at DH and taking up two roster spots? Matsui isn’t going to cost that much. That seems more and more obvious the longer this plays out. I hope that Cashman accepts Granderson as his #2 hitter and signs Matsui.
We do not need Johnny Damon. He’s great. He really is a great player.
But we by no means need him to win another WS.
I mean…is anyone else even a little suspicious of Holliday’s ability to handle the AL…let alone the AL East’s pitching.
I know some of the the numbers indicated a turn around and what not but I was NOT impressed by his time in Oakland.
Thanks for the response, Randy. I just felt that Eiland did well in teaching the basics, but that polishing was part of his skillset. Right now, it seems like NYY’s best pitching coach is Mariano Rivera. He worked wonders with Hughes in the pen…polishing his cutter and teaching him about the mentality it takes to pitch out of the pen. Rivera is a once in a generation gem. He can pitch and teach. a rare combination.
GB–All of us were very happy to notice your typing skills were unharmed in your surgery. Perhaps, I should remember the glass houses idea.
We’re going to miss you, in the words of Pettitte, “Wanger!!
I still have my hopes up that you’re going to resign with us!!
Thank you for the kind words, S.A. My main issue right now is that I need a beer, some pizza and a cigarette really badly.
“Wang’s record was nice in 08 was he certainly was not having the terrific season some people seem to think he was having.
His ERA that day going into Houston was 4.30″
His other numbers besides ERA were pretty much in line with his career numbers.
Looking at his game logs in 10 of his 15 starts he gave up 3 or less runs.
His ERA+ was still above average as well so he was putting together a pretty decent season.
Sometimes looking at the ERA alone doesn’t tell the whole story.
Aww, GB – I know it must be rough not having the babes around……I hope you recover quickly and that you can get back to changing diapers like you love to do.
Good luck to you GB.
“•According to a source, talks between the Red Sox and Padres about Adrian Gonzalez aren’t progressing. Padres GM Jed Hoyer is asking for at least Clay Buchholz and either Casey Kelly or Ryan Westmoreland, and the Sox would prefer not to give up that much.”
Via MLBTR
If that is all the Padres are asking for, for Gonzalez, then I think we all know what is going on here.
The fact that the Red Sox do not want to give up that for a world class first baseman is absolutely sickening.
They are so intent on making their prospects seem as if they worth more than they are.
Sickening.
austinmac
December 13th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
GB–All of us were very happy to notice your typing skills were unharmed in your surgery. Perhaps, I should remember the glass houses idea.
————————————————————
LMAO. Yeah…that hack forgot to finish the job…a Mavis Beacon finger transplant and a dictionary computer chip in the brain was part of the deal. He apparently though a Marvin Bacon transplant would work just as well.
Eiland did a great job of helping CC out this year. Scott Aldred is another good PC in the system.
That team will probably be a mediocre/bad team. What seriously contending teams (aside from the Yankees) need a LF? There’s no way Boston will have him back……
GB7:
“Thank you for the kind words, S.A. My main issue right now is that I need a beer, some pizza and a cigarette really badly.”
I’ll have some of each and think of you. Does that help
Rest up. We need you ready for ST.
CR, it says AT LEAST…………The Padres are NOT trading Gonzalez.
Gaudin as well, with his slider…..
“Signing him back on a minor-league deal seems unlikely, too, since Wang is still ruffled by the the Yankees taking him to an arbitration hearing – over a grand total of $600,000 – in 2008, then crowed about winning.”
I can’t find a link right now, but that story is just flat out wrong. Wang wasn’t in any way annoyed at the Yankees. When negotiating his contract that year, the Yankees made the first offer. They presented a salary higher than Wang was going to ask for.
At that point, Wang and his agent decided that they should ask for more and go to arbitration, as even if they lost, they would receive more than they had hoped for. The Yankees did not want to compromise and meet in the middle, as they (rightly) felt their offer was more than fair, and they did not want to raise the bar further for arbitration salaries.
Betsy – high on pie
December 13th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Aww, GB – I know it must be rough not having the babes around……I hope you recover quickly and that you can get back to changing diapers like you love to do.
————————————————————
Betsy, that’s the only good thing about this. I’m not allowed to inhale any toxic fumes. As soon as I get down to Ft. Myers, and after I get home, Morgan’s going to hook up a computer cam so I can see the kids. Looking forward to that.
Once again, God bless you, and you beat the snot out of this thing, GB7.
murphydog
December 13th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
GB7:
“Thank you for the kind words, S.A. My main issue right now is that I need a beer, some pizza and a cigarette really badly.”
I’ll have some of each and think of you. Does that help
Rest up. We need you ready for ST.
————————————————————
LMAO. That’s just cruel, Murph.
crawdaddy-
i went back on backtype and read about a hundred of your posts.
http://www.backtype.com/search.....038;page=6
didn’t see any links.
but it appears you want to make things personal with me.
i accept your challenge.
bring it on.
just remember i’m not the anonymous poster like you are.
we all know who murphydog, sj44, trisha, rebecca, pat m, etc are.
who are you?
to me , you’re just another anonymous couch potato with with an overinflated opinion of yourself.
you think you disliked me before.
the next few months are going to be real interesting.
Thanks, Phil. Right now, the biggest issue will be infection, but, it’ll all work just fine. Thanks for the kind words.
raymagnetic
December 13th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
“Wang’s record was nice in 08 was he certainly was not having the terrific season some people seem to think he was having.
His ERA that day going into Houston was 4.30?
His other numbers besides ERA were pretty much in line with his career numbers.
Looking at his game logs in 10 of his 15 starts he gave up 3 or less runs.
His ERA+ was still above average as well so he was putting together a pretty decent season.
Sometimes looking at the ERA alone doesn’t tell the whole story.
——————————–
I have to disagree. I said this in the last thread, but in 2008 Wang continued his downward trend in GB% and his upward trend in LD%. I think he was losing his sinker long before that day in Houston and I do not know of another stat more indicative of that other than looking at his GB and LD percentages.
Battle ROYALE
Remember back in 08 when Wang pitched that complete game against the Red Sox at home? It was on 92 pitches or something like that, unbelievable.
” Right now, it seems like NYY’s best pitching coach is Mariano Rivera. He worked wonders with Hughes in the pen…polishing his cutter and teaching him about the mentality it takes to pitch out of the pen. ”
gb7-
good point.
he’s going to be a valuable spring training coach when he retires.
he’s made way too much money to be a regular season pitching coach, but he ‘d be great if he wanted to do it.
If Boras really told the Yankees not to make an offer under 3 years at $13 per then he is a goner. I must admit that surprises me since I can’t imagine anyone else paying that, but Boras often finds that one owner he can minipulate.
lets go yankees,
What happened to his sinker in the 10 games he gave up 3 earned runs or less?
When in 2/3rds of your starts you give up 3 earned runs or less I have to say you’re doing something right.
With his LD’s going up and his GB going down Wang was just going to continue to get worse relying only on one pitch. Other than turning to the slider there was really nothing else Wang could do with a sinker that was becoming less and less effective.
In 2008 Wang’s LD% was up to 22% (55% GB)
In 2008 Brandon Webbs’s LD% was 15% (64% GB)
In addition Webb, another sinkerballer, has much better secondary pitches than Wang. The numbers are there. I do not see Wang being an elite pitcher long term with just his sinker.
Just jumping on, but it seems like GB7 is alive and kicking. Well, at least kicking.
Hope things worked out and the prognosis looks good. It was strange not having you on last night knowing what was going on.
Welcome back.
The amount of runs he gave up does not tell me that he still had the same sinker he once had. He relied on his slider more than ever in 2008. That is why his K/9 were way up. He was still able to be a good pitcher with a good sinker and an above average slider. Before 2008 he had a great sinker.
What tells me that is his GB were going down. If his sinker was the same his GB% would not have been going up every season.
GB7:
I kid because i love
Been through a similar drill with my dad years ago. Treatment left him vulnerable for a while, but his immune system made a comeback. Meantime we had to avoid him if we had a cold or thought we did. And my daughter was considered a petri dish and had to be avoided at all costs.
Laptop plus skype may be just the solution for free virtual visits.
Rest up my friend. We’ll take care of business in the meantime.
If you use career OPS, Holliday is better than any of the 2011 free agent outfielders and it’s not even close.
Outfielders
Alfredo Amezaga FLA
Pat Burrell TB
Eric Byrnes ARI
Frank Catalanotto MIL
Carl Crawford TB
Coco Crisp KC
Michael Cuddyer MIN *
David DeJesus KC *
Adam Dunn WAS
Jermaine Dye CWS
Jody Gerut MIL
Jose Guillen KC
Willie Harris WAS
Brad Hawpe COL *
Geoff Jenkins PHI
Austin Kearns WAS
Jason Kubel MIN *
Magglio Ordonez DET *
Marcus Thames DET
Jayson Werth PHI
let’s go yankees,
His strikeouts per 9 were also going up as well. So he was relying on other pitches and not primarily his sinker to get outs with.
Bottom line he had two really bad starts against the Mets and Red Sox where he gave up 7 and 9 runs and two other starts where he gave up 5 runs.
Other than that he was lights out regardless of what his line drive and ground ball percentages were.
” I think he was losing his sinker long before that day in Houston ”
let’s go yanks-
i believe he started losing his sinker when he started throwing more sliders. the following shows what his thinking was.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c...../index.htm
“IN A St. Petersburg hotel suite this February, Yankees officials sat face-to-face with Wang, his wife and his agents at an arbitration hearing. For 4 1/2 hours the team executives explained to three arbitrators why Wang deserved the $4.0 million they were offering but not the $4.6 million he was asking for. They said that Wang owed a great deal of his success to the New York lineup, which had given him the second-highest run support of any starter in the big leagues over the last two years. They pointed to Wang’s playoff meltdown.
Wang lost the hearing. He knew it was business, of course, but the words stung him almost as much as what happened in October. When he arrived at spring training, he vowed to work with new pitching coach Dave Eiland on fully incorporating a changeup and slider into his repertoire. “He’s going to be more than a one-pitch pitcher,” Eiland declared.
Until this season Wang had relied on his sinker roughly 90% of the time. During some outings, catcher Jorge Posada would go an entire game without calling for anything but the sinker. Through his first three starts this season, however, Wang had expanded his arsenal to include sliders 15% of the time and changeups 8%. “After [what happened in] the playoffs, I know I still have a lot to prove; I’m still working,” he said, after allowing two runs and striking out two batters in seven innings against the Blue Jays in the season opener. “I know I need to change a little to reach the next level.”
in this article wang himself seemed on board with changing the approach that had worked for him.
in my opinion wang needed to continue throwing the sinker almost exclusively. it appears the yankees didn’t force him , but that he went along by his own choice.
to me that was the fork in the road where wang started downhill.
2005 actually signaled the beginning of Cashman limiting Torre’s power by forcing Cano and Wang on him.
Speaking of Torre, why would any pitcher want to pitch for him? He has no conscience in the way he uses them.
randy l.
December 13th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
” Right now, it seems like NYY’s best pitching coach is Mariano Rivera. He worked wonders with Hughes in the pen…polishing his cutter and teaching him about the mentality it takes to pitch out of the pen. ”
gb7-
good point.
he’s going to be a valuable spring training coach when he retires.
he’s made way too much money to be a regular season pitching coach, but he ‘d be great if he wanted to do it.
————————————————————
I’ve noticed during the pregames and during the games in the pen, they follow Rivera around like puppy dogs, and he’s always talking/teaching somebody something. I have a feeling when he leaves, there’s going to be a large, empty spot on the entire pitching staff, beyond what he did on the field. I think that same sort of feeling will happen when Pettitte leaves, too.
Assuming Halladay signs an extension with the team that acquires him and also assuming the Phillies lock up Lee, Lackey is right up there with the rest of the FA class with the exception of Webb and Beckett.
Starting Pitchers
Bronson Arroyo CIN *
Josh Beckett BOS
Joe Blanton PHI
Jeremy Bonderman DET
David Bush MIL
Daniel Cabrera ARZ
Matt Cain SF *
Jorge De La Rosa COL
Jeff Francis COL *
Jon Garland LAD
Roy Halladay TOR
Aaron Harang CIN *
Tim Hudson ATL
Cliff Lee PHI
Ted Lilly CHC
Braden Looper MIL
Noah Lowry SF
Kevin Millwood TEX
Jamie Moyer PHI
Vicente Padilla LAD
Tim Redding NYM
Nate Robertson DET
Ian Snell SEA *
Jeff Suppan MIL *
Willy Tavarez CIN
Javier Vazquez ATL
Brandon Webb ARI
Jake Westbrook CLE
Dontrelle Willis DET
Chris Young SD *
A look at the relievers with Mo in the final year of his current deal. Huston Street stands out but seriously, the Yanks might be better off keeping Mo and grooming a closer from within:
Relief Pitchers
Jeremy Affeldt SF
Grant Balfour TB
Doug Brocail HOU
Neal Cotts CHC
Jesse Crain MIN
Scott Downs TOR
Chad Durbin PHI
Alan Embree COL
Kyle Farnsworth KC *
Pedro Feliciano NYM
Jason Frasor TOR
Brian Fuentes LAA *
Chad Gaudin NYY
Geoff Geary HOU
Jimmy Gobble CWS
Matt Guerrier MIN
Aaron Heilman CHC
Mike Lincoln CIN
Javier Lopez BOS
Seth McClung MIL
Brian Moehler HOU
Scott Proctor FLA
J.J. Putz NYM
Chad Qualls ARZ
Jon Rauch MIN
Arthur Rhodes CIN
David Riske MIL *
Mariano Rivera NYY
J.C. Romero PHI *
B.J. Ryan CHC
Bobby Seay DET
Scott Shields LAA
Brian Shouse TB
Justin Speier LAA
Huston Street COL
Matt Thornton CWS *
Luis Vizcaino CLE
Tyler Yates PIT
Tyler Walker SEA
Kerry Wood CLE *
m
December 13th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Just jumping on, but it seems like GB7 is alive and kicking. Well, at least kicking.
Hope things worked out and the prognosis looks good. It was strange not having you on last night knowing what was going on.
Welcome back.
————————————————————
Thanks, Mel. I didn’t know if I missed much last night or not. I felt like I’d just ran a marathon…and lost. Thanks for the kind thoughts.
You didn’t miss a thing. It was very quiet. Was looking for a friendly face and would’ve settled for yours anyway.
murphydog
December 13th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
GB7:
I kid because i love
Been through a similar drill with my dad years ago. Treatment left him vulnerable for a while, but his immune system made a comeback. Meantime we had to avoid him if we had a cold or thought we did. And my daughter was considered a petri dish and had to be avoided at all costs.
Laptop plus skype may be just the solution for free virtual visits.
Rest up my friend. We’ll take care of business in the meantime.
————————————————————
Thanks, Murph. I hate the thought of going through the airport in about a week, wearing a mask. I’m trying to figure out who’s mask I should wear. I’d wear a Randy mask, but, I don’t want them laughing and snickering about my golf game. Mine’s bad enough, but, I’ll be damned if I’ll take the blame for his.
“Boo!” scream the disgruntled fans in New England.
Music to my ears.
couldn’t Wang’s line drive rate increase been due to the fact he threw his slider more?
Looks like the Jays don’t need a catcher:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....-buck.html
randy,
I did not really think about that. That could very well be the reason. It is like a chicken or the egg argument.
Did Wang start throwing more sliders because he was losing his sinker?
or
Did Wang start throwing more sliders and in turn lost his sinker?
I guess we will have to wait and see what happens to him in the future to better be able to figure that out.
let’s go yankees ( formerly twins)
i think below is basically your position. it’s the usual sabermetric position. to me it’s just dogma and not necessarily true. we’ll never know what would have happened had wang continued to throw just the sinker primarily.
“Wang had been exposed as a one-pitch anomaly, or so said the baseball cognoscenti, the scribes and the sabermetricians who’ve long proclaimed the 6’3″, 225-pound righthander the beneficiary of a large amount of good fortune. How else to explain why a pitcher with a minuscule strikeout rate, who misses fewer bats than almost every other major league starter, could be so successful? No, Wang’s October wasn’t just a pair of fluke performances in an otherwise accomplished season, nor was it the result of a tired arm, but rather the sign of something larger. This, the skeptics said, was perhaps where the end began.”
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c...../index.htm
m
December 13th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
You didn’t miss a thing. It was very quiet. Was looking for a friendly face and would’ve settled for yours anyway.
————————————————————
LMAO. If I knew how to make a face with my tongue sticking out, I would.
~~~
raymagnetic
December 13th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
let’s go yankees,
His strikeouts per 9 were also going up as well. So he was relying on other pitches and not primarily his sinker to get outs with.
Bottom line he had two really bad starts against the Mets and Red Sox where he gave up 7 and 9 runs and two other starts where he gave up 5 runs.
Other than that he was lights out regardless of what his line drive and ground ball percentages were.
—————————-
That is not the point. All I was talking about was the effectiveness of his sinker.
Randy said that his slider probably is what did his shoulder in, which I agree with. My argument was he turned to his slider b/c he was losing his sinker.
Regardless of how well he pitched using his slider in 2008 clearly he was not able to keep it up b/c that is prob the reason he blew out his shoulder.
Wang could very well have gone on to prove myself and the typical sabermetric view of him wrong.
However, given the track record of pitchers with one pitch esp. since he did not miss bats, the odds were certainly against him.
“Did Wang start throwing more sliders because he was losing his sinker?
or
Did Wang start throwing more sliders and in turn lost his sinker?
I guess we will have to wait and see what happens to him in the future to better be able to figure that out.”
let’s yanks( formerly twins)-
exactly.
i really do understand your position. i’m happy that you understand mine.
this situation with wang gives us all a chance to test our baseball knowledge and make some predictions about the future.
this is not a low IQ problem with wang.
it is difficult to understand.
wang himself appears to have sabotaged himself with trying to please the yankees by choosing to throw more sliders.
forget blame though.
wouldn’t it be an interesting experiment to have wang go back to just throwing sinkers ?
what would there be to lose ?
i think that’s the very first thing he should do no matter where he goes.
GB7:
I remember the masks. My dad was a bad patient. Wouldn’t wear the mask, made everybody else wear one when we came to visit at Memorial Sloan Kettering in NYC (the Yankees Universe folks). If he wore a mask at all he’d pull it to one side as soon as the nurse left the room. We’d complain, he’d just smile. He did a lot better once he was home and in comfortable surroundings.
I come here to pay my respects to Chien Ming Wang. You were never really an ace, but you were instrumental in the Yankees having even a small youth movement.
Pitch in Peace CMW.
Hey sports fans! looking for some fun sports contests?
http://www.battleoffs.com/View.....egoryid=12
You have a chance to win gift cards for Amazon! register for free, vote on other entries and see if your entry that gets the most votes wins!
took out the 2nd quote to get out of “moderation”
Rishi Your comment is awaiting moderation.
December 13th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Interesting read:
Ian_OConnor Great authors Mike Vaccaro, @mikevacc, and Joe Posnanski, @jposnanski, on whether Yankee empire is good or evil.
http://tinyurl.com/ycolzw6
I’m on the record about Wang already. Non-tender was the right move. Why would Cash risk a minimum of $4 mil on a guy who may not make it back from the shoulder surgery?
As for loyalty, it’s a two way street. Wang’s agent could have cut to the chase and offered to stay for less or made any other agreement if he was truly committed to being in pinstripes at any cost. But he’s not committed to the Yankees at any cost. Wang insists on playing it this way, just as much as Cash wants it his way. How does that make Cash the bad guy for non-tendering him since they can’t come to terms?
Brett, I agree with what you are saying about Holliday. I think there’s a good chance he is better than any positiom players avaiable because Mauer ,pujols, and Crawford may get extensions. However the little payroll thing is the problem. Basically if they sign Holliday and are are really lowering payroll then they can’t do much else.
That Ian O’Connor column was brutally stupid.
Excellent article that demonstrates exactly why anyone who has come into contact with Curtis Granderson is better for it:
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....erson.html
I’ll be sad to see CMW leave if that is the outcome (and I assume it will be). I thought the Yankees were petty in their handling of his arbitration case last time round and should have eaten the cash and gone to arbitration again this time. He has clear value and while they waste money on players like Marte they push their own talent like CMW out the door.
I have no problem with Wang being non-tendered, but, I would like to see them work out a deal with heavy incentives on a minor league contract.
Always fair when the Pats opponent receives 4 penalties for 60 yards in the 1st half, then a penalty on what was going to be 3rd down from the 8 yard line for holding in the secondary which set them up for a 1st and goal and easy TD.
” How does that make Cash the bad guy for non-tendering him since they can’t come to terms?”
murphydog-
i don’t think it makes cashman the bad guy for not picking up the option on wang.
what i’m saying is that if you look at the past, and i mean really look, in hind sight it’s highly likely that the slider causes shoulder problems for wang.
forget blame. thinking pragmatically, wouldn’t it be smart of the yankees to try just once to have him throw primarily sinkers in a rehab with no sliders ?
what’s the downside?
they rehab him to at least a point where they could trade him and get something.
i really think if some other team picks him up and has him abandon the slider and go back to almost all sinkers, the yankees are going to end up with egg on their face.
if it’s the red sox.
very bad.
if he leaves, i hope he goes to the cardinals where they push the sinker.
and where he can’t hurt the yankees.
blake
December 13th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Brett, I agree with what you are saying about Holliday. I think there’s a good chance he is better than any positiom players avaiable because Mauer ,pujols, and Crawford may get extensions. However the little payroll thing is the problem. Basically if they sign Holliday and are are really lowering payroll then they can’t do much else.
—
But Lackey is also comparable to all the arms in the 2011 FA pitching class.
So do you sign Holliday and hope for Webb?
Or do you sign Lackey and hope for Crawford?
Nice comments about the Wanger this afternoon.
I think it would be a huge error and lack of foresight to let Wang go. He is just too good to cut loose. And lets be honest here, while all shoulder injuries are extremely serious for pitchers, the one Wang had last year is minor as shoulder injuries go.
His doctor (Dr. James Andrews) said just a few weeks ago that Wang is healing surprisingly well. We all know how many shoulder injuries Andrews has seen, how much does it take to surprise him?
I am 100% confident that Wang will pitch again next year and also very confident that he will pitch like his old self.
I think it would be a smart move by the Yankees to take a chance on this guy and sign him to minor league contract that pays out a couple million if he makes it to the majors.
Sign neither Holliday, Damon, nor Lackey and hope for Crawford.
Looks like the Jays don’t need a catcher:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/…..-buck.html
——————————————–
Thats good!!! I was worrried that the Red Sox might sign Buck. As it is Boston still has defensive problems behind the plate with Vistor Martinez (really a 1B/DH) and Jason Varitek (should retire).
M,
Are you thinking Matsui and someone like Sheets?
The activity so far from the FO suggests cost-cutting measures that usually set the stage for big spending.
So far:
No arbitration offered to Damon, Matsui, Nady, Molina, Pettitte.
Bruney dealt while arbitration eligible and due to earn around 2 mil.
Granderson acquired as a cost-effective CF earning 5.5 mil
Reduced interest in Aroldis Chapman
Unwillingness to sign relievers, letting R. Soriano go to the Rays
Wang non-tendered
Brett, see I don’t think Lackey is comparable to some of the Free agent pitchers next year and I think there is a better chance of one of them being available than pujols mauer or Crawford
He might not be done in NY. The yanks could get him an incentive laiden deal, with a low base
I know the reports say that hell be back by may 1 or june 1, but if theresone thing we know, its that CMW’s rehabs always take very very long (durability). I personally don’t think he will throw a Major League Inning before the ASB… so maybe he cam add some depth down the stretch, but we shall see
Tip of the cap to CMW….
If any team buys into the demands of Scott Boras of 3+ years @ $13M per for Damon, it will be the White Sox that he’ll bamboozle.
According to Jim Callis, Ryan Kalish or Josh Reddick and Michael Bowden and Dustin Richardson is the equivalent of what the Yankees gave up for Granderson.
IPK, Ajax, Phil Coke…
So that means that Ryan Kalish or Josh Reddick is equal to our top OF prospect, Ajax. (By his logic)
Does this get it done for Roy Halladay?
Lars, Kelly, and Westmoreland?
Jim Callis’ response:
“The Blue Jays might want more major league ready talent, but on sheer prospect value, that should get it done.
But I dont see the Red Sox giving that much up.”
Bret,
All the moves you mention are smart baseball moves, not cost cutting measures. A cost cutting move would be like trading Nick Swisher and putting Melky in RF and Gardner in CF.
They either don’t need the guys they didn’t offer arb to or know they can be had for less money. Why pay more if you don’t have to?
Bruney is… not good
Acquiring Granderson is actually a payroll addition. Granderson 5.5 mil vs Melky @ ~2 mil.
There have been no reports that the Yanks are down on Chapman.
Spending excessive money on the bullpen is usually a terrible idea.
Look at the big picture dude, the Yanks already have ~$190 million on the books for this year.
I think they have enough money to sign Damon or Cameron, Matsui, Wang and maybe a reliever. I’d say 8 mill for Damon/Cameron, 5-6 mill for Matsui, 2 mill for Wang. Trade Cabrera to free up another couple mill and they can still come in under last year’s payroll.
“So that means that Ryan Kalish or Josh Reddick is equal to our top OF prospect, Ajax. (By his logic)”
Well that’s clearly wrong. Kalish and Reddick are nowhere near Ajax.
Last year as a 22 yr old Reddick hit .277/.352/.520 in AA, .127/.190/.183 in AAA and .169/.210/.339 in the big leagues. The Red Sox clearly rushed him and he performed worse at AA than Jackson did a year earlier.
Kalish there’s a better argument for but he’s still not nearly as advanced as Jackson. He’s a year younger and still in AA but Jackson has proven that he can hit in AAA, Kalish is still an unknown there. Also, I’m pretty sure Kalish does’t play CF which lessens his value.
For a prospect hugger you certainly love the old players.
Damon, Cameron, Matsui
Trade a cost effective young outfielder in Melky Cabrera and squander all your dough on players at the end of their careers?
Your handle – a misnomer.
Patrick
Tell that to Jim Callis, not me.
I put this up here for pure comedic value.
Jim Callis could not be any more of a Red Sox Schill than if he were paid by the Red Sox themselves.
WOOOOOOT
Why would Wang be angry over losing $600,00 ,when he’s been paid millions the last two yrs,hanging out on the DL?
As for the starting pitching rotation being scary without him.
He was 1-6 this year,and the Yankees won the WS. This didn’t happen by chance.
I really like Wang and hopes he signs a minor league contract.
After Pavano collected millions for living on the DL FOR YEARS, the Yankees had to play it out this way.
Wang will come back!
randy l:
Not saying you’re wrong. I just think it’s a two way street.
As of right now the status is that Wang was non-tendered. I am assuming that there was no alternative presented by Cash, like a minor league deal with incentives, etc. I am assuming also that Wang/his agent didn’t negotiate against themselves and ask for a lesser, incentive laden contract in the minors before testing the market – Wang’s choice.
Thus, my first question is: Why should Cash compete against himself if Wang apparently isn’t going to do the same? Makes perfect business sense to let Wang test the market and come back and ask Cash to match any competing offer if he really wants to stay a Yankee.
On all other fronts, Cash is being praised for waiting out the market and not overpaying for able-bodied talent like Halladay, Lackey or anybody else. Wang’s injury makes his prior record of accomplishment less relevant; it’s less predictive of future results after the injury.
Thus, my second question is: Why should Cash overpay for injured or rehabbing talent if he is cautious about able-bodied talent?
Callis is the imbecile who said Cano couldn’t play second in the majors. He’s a Sox sucker.
Callis? Olney? Gammons? Face it. Saying the Yankees are great and that their talent is better than any other team’s talent doesn’t sell newspapers. It’s a “dog bites man” story, it’s a “Yay! Corporate America” story.
Being pro-Sox is really being anti-Yankee for the most part and it’s the underlying message that the Yankees suck that sells in 49 of the 50 states.
I’m not sure if anyone here knows the real story of how Wang learned his famous “sinker ball” pitch.
One day Wang was training in the Tampa complex and he noticed a shadowy figure leaning up on the fence. Wang was drawn to him and the man, a local drifter named Al Neilan, suggested to Wang that he had a natural arm slot for a pitch called the “sinker ball”.
Neilan showed Wang the grip before he was shooed away by security.
Unfortunately, Brian Cashman, who felt threatened by the growing influence of Neilan and a number of other local drifters, tightened up security at the Tampa complex and Neilan was forced to glom onto a club with easier fence access.
Cashman, in an attempt to cover his tracks, orchestrated a plan that left Wang injured and, finally, non-tendered.
Some might say that Cashman’s insecurities and schemes have left the team weaker, but that is not for me to say.
And that is the story of Chien-ming Wang and his world-famous “sinker ball” pitch.
“Not saying you’re wrong. I just think it’s a two way street.”
murphydog-
i agree it’s a two way street at this point. he had to be non tendered to take the no more than 20 % drop in salary off the table.
now that that’s done and he’s a free agent , it’s clearly a two way street from this point on.
people talk about damage control all the time. like with tiger right now. what would have been really good is for someone to have given him the advice before the problem developed.
i’m saying that if wang leaves and wins 19 games again with someone else cashman is going to look very bad.
i’m saying he has no chance of winning 19 games again if he keeps throwing sliders. i ‘ve given lots of links today about how the slider is bad for his shoulder historically. the yankees previous coaching staff told him not to throw it.
what would the downside be of cashman meeting with wang’s agent and saying that the yankees wanted to give it one more try but forgetting the slider and pushing the sinker?
wang himself may not know he and the slider don’t mix well.
i just think there is a chance someone besides me who’s in an mlb front office will say let’s try out that sinker of wang’s . maybe the cardinals.
for a lot of reasons , i think wang simply needs to go back to just throwing the sinker and he’ll be at least a good #5 and probably back to a #3 or better.
but yes, wang is a grown up man. he needs to take ownership of his career and make some hard choices.
The saga continues.
nick in sf-
i actually really do like your humor and being the court jester you often make some good points in that role
but neil allen really did teach him the sinker.
there’s no myth about allen involved which seems to be your point.
it happened.
i know you like wang, but you don’t seem to know much about his background.
i posted a lot of links today. i think if read the sports illustrated article, you might see things in a different light.
peter a. told me in an email they talked with neil in writing the book.
there are numerous articles attributing wang’s sinker to allen.
Great article on RAB about Yankees possibly picking up Capps for the bullpen. I think its a great call. What do you think?
Bret,
Yes, Hideki and a veteran pitcher. I prefer Halladay, but barring a Christmas miracle, I would settle for a 1-yr. with a Sheets’ type pitcher.
CR9,
Your attention to all things New England is entertainingly borderline paranoid-obsessive.
But I thought you’d enjoy this: According to a source, talks between the Red Sox and Padres about Adrian Gonzalez aren’t progressing. Padres GM Jed Hoyer is asking for at least Clay Buchholz and either Casey Kelly or Ryan Westmoreland, and the Sox would prefer not to give up that much. source: mlbtr
randy, dear chap, I have no doubt that Neil Allen taught Wang the sinker — it’s been widely documented.
The point of the above fable has more to do with your insinuations about Brian Cashman than anything about Neil Allen.
LOL at Callis. Just recently someone asked if Hughes (or was it Joba), Montero and another piece or two would get it done and Callis basically laughed it off and said a bunch of other teams could top it. So, because he doesn’t think Montero is a catcher, he’s devalued. Lars Anderson is coming off of a rough year and Kelly and Westmoreland are in the lower minors. Is Callis freaking kidding?
m
I already posted that earlier in this thread.
Also, the Pats only had 2 penalties called against them today. 2 for 15 yards.
And the Panthers just got cheated, game over, in which Personal Foul Roughing Punter was called when it was clear the guy rolled on the ground into him, making it a running into the kicker 5 yard penalty.
I love how people think that Wang is stiff and unable to adapt and apparent some kind of one-pitch idiot savant unable of picking up new things.
I wish CMW all the best, and hope he and the Yankees can come to some resolution and sign a minor-league deal. Seriously, he’d be a risk in the NL and may either reinjure his foot, or get hit while batting. He has that kind of luck.
No, it’s AL for him: Yankees or Seattle seem like the best options.
Here’s a blurb from Ken Davidoff in Newsday (no link, this is from the actual paper):
“It’s virtually a done deal that former Padre’s General Manager Kevin Towers will join the Yankees front office. Towers will remain based in Southern California and serve as an advisor and special-assignment scout for his good friend Brian Cashman”
All that matters is how Anthopolous evaluates the prospects… not Yankees fans, Sox fans, or the Callis’ of the world.
I refuse to read that Ian O’Connor article. The Yankees aren’t an Evil Empire for one………..and for another, the teams that don’t spend the damn free $$$ they get from the Yankees, Sox, Phillies, etc……are the teams truly bad for the sport.
“Signing him back on a minor-league deal seems unlikely, too, since Wang is still ruffled by the the Yankees taking him to an arbitration hearing – over a grand total of $600,000 – in 2008, then crowed about winning. Given the situation now, it’s a shame that happened.”
serious question: is this backed by anything that CMW has said? or are you just assuming this is why he won’t come back? if he has said that is the reason he isn’t coming back, ok then, but if it’s the latter, isn’t it a little irresponsible to ascribe motives to CMW?
also, i like how “a grand total of $600K” is just stated as if it’s unimportant. because if he gets that $600K in 2008, that means he’d have gotten a raise on that higher number in 2009. it would also mean in 2010, he’d only be able to get 80% of that number that was raised twice since 2008, making it even HARDER to bring him back this year.
the Yankees were 100% right to take him to that hearing. the press release afterwards was a little tone deaf, but let’s not criticize the Yankees for making a correct baseball decision. these arbitration hearings have second order effects that can cost teams millions.
m
I would focus on any rival team so committed to winning as the Red Sox.
If and when the O’s and Jays become committed to winning, my attention will be diverted to them.
EZ, that’s true…….but that’s not the point. The point is that Callis is a moron.
The point being that Wang wasn’t born with the power sinker. And by most accounts did not get it until he was in the Yankee system.
“Callis? Olney? Gammons? Face it. Saying the Yankees are great and that their talent is better than any other team’s talent doesn’t sell newspapers. It’s a “dog bites man” story, it’s a “Yay! Corporate America” story.
Being pro-Sox is really being anti-Yankee for the most part and it’s the underlying message that the Yankees suck that sells in 49 of the 50 states.”
murphydog
I don’t like ESPN and I almost always avoid it because of their inherent Red Sox bias, but I usually get glimpses of their most obvious inaccuracies regarding the Yanks and Sox from this blog, usually CR9. The one thing that bothers me is not so much that they bash the Yankees but that they apparently prop up the Red Sox. They can still sell Yankees suck to the fanbases of 49 out of 50 states but it appears as if ESPN is targetted solely to the state of Massachusetts. Either way, I know that I won’t be giving them my viewership any time soon unless there is a Yankees game on Sunday Night baseball. Sooner or later, hopefully sooner, ESPN will cost itself with its Massachusetts-centrism.
If Wang goes to the Sox, so be it. He’s never pitched well in Fenway….I don’t see how anyone can be so confident that he’s going not only be healthy, but completely effective. There is no such thing as minor surgery….even Mo’s wasn’t.
Westmoreland, Kelly, Anderson
Sick to death of hearing those names.
Sox fans and media friends are so fixated on the farm right now because the future is all they think they have.
They’re obviously conceding the present to the Yanks.
They look at our team and know full well that they might as well not get their hopes up for the major league team.
So the shift of focus to the minors is normal.
But I’m still sick of those names.
“Wang wasn’t born with the power sinker. And by most accounts did not get it until he was in the Yankee system.”
Can you cite any other account?
What was Wang’s projected ceiling before he learned the sinker?
randy l.:
Not to flog the fallen horse, but…
Cash has probably already priced-in the risk of “I told you so” if Wang recovers somewhere else and goes on to sinkerball greatness in, say, St. Louis.
It’s just that so many milestones would have to be passed on the road back to effectiveness for Wang, including full physical restoration and then a style change that sends him back to being a one-trick pony, albeit an effective one.
Let’s not forget that there is a post-season preference for fastball-strikeout pitching on the “Let’s make a new dynasty” minded Yankees. That could well be a factor for Cash too.
Let Wang test the market, see the doubt and tepid interest in other GMs eyes for a reclamation project that if he ever reaches 100% again may be limited to one fairly effective, regular season pitch. I think Wang comes back to Cash hat in hand before too long.
Meh, let the Sox win the media battle. Good for them!
Yankees win rings.
“I love how people think that Wang is stiff and unable to adapt and apparent some kind of one-pitch idiot savant unable of picking up new things.”
It’s his muscle and tissue, not his brain, that people question.
“What was Wang’s projected ceiling before he learned the sinker?”
The same as Mo’s before he learned the cutter?
Wang already rejected a minor league offer – he’s not coming back.
Six teams show immediate interest in Wang – three AL, three NL. Dodgers are not one . . . yet. Wang a favorite of Torre and staff.
about 1 hour ago from web
Ken_Rosenthal
People who watch ESPN to listen to the idiotorials deserve any misery they get from it. Watch it for the scores and highlites and switch it off when they start talking.
So madden is writing that Wang rejected a split contract. I don’t blame Wang. It’s in his best interests do what’s best for him and his family. He needs to look out for number one right now.
That proposed Sox package from Callis is not terrible. If I’m Toronto, I take that over the Angels package.
Yuo get Boston’s best prospect in Kelly, plus Westermoreland is a stud prospect in the lower minors. Lars was considered an elite prospect just a yr ago but had a down yr this year. As a throw in, the Sox would really be selling low.
The Sox wouldn’t make that trade anyway so it isin’t worth discussing.
Am I missing something? Wouldn’t the Sox be giving up 3 of their top 5 prospects if they made that deal? Why wouldn’t Toronto make it?
Sorry if I am late with this but RAB is reporting(via Bill madden) that the Yankees did offer Wang a split Minor league/ Major league contract but his agent Alan Nero rejected the offer because there was no guaranteed money, and because Wang wanted to explore the FA for the first time.
Wang is a proven #2 starter in the AL East in the pressure market of NY and brings in a ton of publicity from
Taiwan. Why wouldn’t a bunch of teams be interested?
We allot $1 mil to Sergio Mitre, another team will give that to a guy who has loads of potential. Sheets will get $12 million, Wang will get a couple million.
“RAB is reporting(via Bill madden) that the Yankees did offer Wang a split Minor league/ Major league contract but his agent Alan Nero rejected the offer because there was no guaranteed money, and because Wang wanted to explore the FA for the first time.”
Bad time to explore FA, isn’t it? When you are coming off shoulder surgery and some bad performances over the last year and a half. Hope that’s not his agent’s ego at work, cutting off Wang’s nose to spite his face.
IMO, makes Cash seem a little less callous, no?
Hope it works out for the Wanger. Wish him the best.
the non-Ace Ace
Not the point, Joe. A week or so ago, someone proposed a package centered around Joba or Hughes, Montero and another prospect or two. That is MUCH, much better than what this Sox fan proposed, but Callis trashed it. He’s a joke.
I never thought Cash was callous in the first place, Murph …..I think Wang takes business dealings personally – it’s a mistake, but it’s his to make.
I don’t necessarily assume callousness or incompetence or bad judgement on anyone’s part here.
It’s probably smart for Nero/Wang to at least see what other offers might be out there. Hopefully the Yanks will be given the chance to match other offers — if they’re even interested.
That Wang rejected the first offer doesn’t mean the door is completely closed.
Murphy-
It seems to me that Wang’s agent wanted the yankees to assume ALL of the risk associated with making it back. I do not know baseball contracts but if he had taken that deal and was restored to the major league level then wouldn’t he have to be paid at that point ? How would that split offer have worked if he did accept it ? And yes, At least the Yankees appear to have tried to offer some sort of compromise to retain Wang.
Wang was a proven #2 in the AL East. There is no telling if he will ever be one again. Shoulders aren’t elbows.
On the other hand, I would not blame Wang for taking some offense to an offer with no guaranteed money at all… from a team the took a flyer on Lieber and Mitre more recently. Hopefully that was just an opening offer and the linces of communication stay open.
Wang will be missed if he really is gone. Nothing but a pro and was very good. It sucks injuries had to happen this way.
Besty:
“I never thought Cash was callous in the first place, Murph …..I think Wang takes business dealings personally – it’s a mistake, but it’s his to make.”
Well, either Wang or his agent takes business personally.
You would like to think that Nero, who is certainly no fool, had some conversations with other teams that make him confident there is better out there for his guy before he rejected a split contract to stay with the Yankees.
Sometimes, however, an agent has no choice. I sometimes reject plea bargains on behalf of my clients because I know my client will not take the offer, not because I think it’s necessarily a bad offer. Nero may well have had marching orders from Wang.
GB, Good to hear from you……I was wondering, what were the signs that something was wrong ??????/ As for the Wang debacle, I think it’s bush that he was cut loose….Although I’m hopeful that he returns…..He was mishandled by the club last winter in regards to conditioning , as he reported to camp not in very good shape…..They had him sitting on his rump all winter rather than in a gym working on legs, back & core…..Randy I, You’re fighting for a Noble cause, it’s just too many to ward off…….
The Yankees made a fair offer – they would make it a major league deal once Wang showed his shoulder was sound. That’s on Wang for rejecting it. He’s gone and, for me, there’s no looking back. As someone on another board put it, the Yankees would have been thrilled to see Wang back in the majors and they would have paid him. Oh well.
“Bad time to explore FA, isn’t it?”
In general, yes, but when the other option was a contract with non-guaranteed money, he kind of has to, no? It’s not like he’s leaving some better offer on the table to try the open market.
Murphy, I believe it. First Wang gets upset about arbitration. I’m sorry, but that’s his problem…..it’s not an easy process and teams/players try to avoid it, but that’s part of business. Now he’s upset because the Yankees actually want to see that his shoulder is sound before they give him a major league deal…..I find it ironic that teams that aren’t in a position to throw away $$$ are going to take a chance on Wang for a few million $$$.
Nick-
His medicals must indicate to the Yankees that the probability of his return is rather low. Hence no Guaranteed money unless you can prove your are healthy. From a buisness standpoint this might make sense but I am not sure it makes total sense. Let’s see what other teams offer him once they get to look at his medical records. It would appear the Yankees see his return as a bad bet. You above all should understand the idea of gambles and good/bad bets. Do you think guaranteeing Wang a certain amount would have been a good bet on the part of the Yanks ?
Yankees are losing their asian sensations.
Nick in SF:
Lieber and Mitre both had Tommy John surgery. Wang comparing himself to them is apples and oranges really. He might be offended about the disparate treatment but he is in a different boat, much as he wishes it were not true.
And let’s not forget that if even Wang recovers and gets back to being the “old” Wang, he is a one trick pony, and not the kind of pitcher you want on the mound in the playoffs – too many balls put in play.
Maybe it’s about that as much as anything else for Cash.
That 1 trick pony won 19 games twice.
The Yankees are being smart here. It may be unfortunate for Wang. It is just the way it is. They can’t give him a guranteed deal when his shoulder may never be the same. Im sure some team will take a chance on him but he probably should of accepted that split deal people are talking about. Seems like the best way.
Pat M.
December 13th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
GB, Good to hear from you……I was wondering, what were the signs that something was wrong ??????/ As for the Wang debacle, I think it’s bush that he was cut loose….Although I’m hopeful that he returns…..He was mishandled by the club last winter in regards to conditioning , as he reported to camp not in very good shape…..They had him sitting on his rump all winter rather than in a gym working on legs, back & core…..Randy I, You’re fighting for a Noble cause, it’s just too many to ward off…….
————————————————————
Hey, PAT. How are things with you?
I decided to have it checked out after having a cold that I couldn’t shake after 3 months and then started coughing up blood. Only my stupidity made me wait that long.
Betsy-
speaking of ironic. Isn’t it ironic that the Yankees who have literally wasted millions on the likes Of Igawa, etc.
have decided that the risk involved with wang is just too great to have even offered him a minimal amount ? I find that ironic, or whatever and sad too.
Where was CMW last offseason? In Tampa or Taiwan?
Wang has a tough road to climb. First, he needs to get healthy. Secondly, there are other rehab projects that are currently healthier and with higher upside in the eyes of some teams. Sheets, Duch., et al.
Even if Wang’s not back with the Yankees, I hope that he can resume his career which had gotten off to a terrific start before that disastrous game.
Nick in SF:
“In general, yes, but when the other option was a contract with non-guaranteed money, he kind of has to, no? It’s not like he’s leaving some better offer on the table to try the open market.”
In his estimation apparently so. I guess what we don’t know is whether this is a leap of faith into the market or whether Nero has heard some whispers of interest from other corners. Still, I guess there’s really nothing to lose at this point unless Cash told them: Take it or leave it, but if you walk out don’t call back. Now that would be c-c-c-cold.
“Do you think guaranteeing Wang a certain amount would have been a good bet on the part of the Yanks ?”
I have no idea, I don’t have all the facts. But the other teams will have access to the medicals too before they make firm offers. If NO teams offers Wang (much) guaranteed money then that will tell us something.
But the Yankees have the resources to make Wang a hard-dollar offer and they also have a past history of taking gambles on pitchers who are rehabbing.
Just as a fan of Wang’s, I would hope that the Yanks would feel some obligation to do right by him, not to mention the marketing benefits that it would bring to keep him in pinstripes.
But yeah, it’s a business, and they might feel stung by the millions they paid him last year and just want to go in another direction.
MTU,
The Yanks are up against the luxury tax and can’t carry deadweight on the 40 man roster right now, because it’s taxable and keeps a healthy option off the 40.
MTU, we’ll just have to disagree on this…..The Yankees made the right move non-tendering Wang. They offered him a chance to come back and he rejected it. That’s his right, but it’s the Yankees’ right as well to do what they believe is best. Now both parties move on……..
“The point of the above fable has more to do with your insinuations about Brian Cashman than anything about Neil Allen.”
nickster-
you are so so far behind the curve.
that’s not like you. must be on vacation or on cia assignment somewhere. ( that nick in alexandria way back gave you away)
i’ve practically been singing praises for cashman the past few weeks.
what else can i say . with the exception of wang last spring and summer, he’s done a great job this year.
Bret,
Twice. Back to back seasons. Was the winningest pitcher over a certain 3 year period.
“speaking of ironic. Isn’t it ironic that the Yankees who have literally wasted millions on the likes Of Igawa, etc.
have decided that the risk involved with wang is just too great to have even offered him a minimal amount ? I find that ironic, or whatever and sad too.”
Go you one further. Perhaps it’s because of Igawa that Cash feels he doesn’t have the budget to guarantee Wang right now. The Steinbrothers may be imposing some financial accountability on Cash.
More than likely Wang will have a killer season next year like a lot of Yankees pitching trades. Something about the pressure in NY crushes guys. I wish him well.
The Braves dumped Kelly Johnson today.
Whatever happened to that guy?
4-5 million dollars for the Yankees means nothing. Absolutely nothing. Certainly he would have not received any type of raise in arbitration. Considering his track record (which despite what some say, IS significant enough to take good stock in), I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if this guy was a team’s #1 or #2 again within a couple years. If he’s healthy and his mind is right, this guy has what it takes, he’s far from washed up at this age.
I would’ve given him another shot and given him a chance to work back this year. For 4 million, they could’ve let him try to turn it around one more year and possibly straighten himself out for good. It’s too bad they didn’t think a potential perennial 19 win a year guy innings eater wasn’t worth a few pennies, considering what CMW has meant to them in the past, and what he still could have meant.
“People who watch ESPN to listen to the idiotorials deserve any misery they get from it.”
GB7
I wholeheartedly agree with you and I don’t even watch it for the highlights. However, I do not think that the Yankee organization should be forced to compete not only against the other teams in MLB but also against the negative perception created by so called “news” organizations like ESPN.
Igawa’s not on the 40 and what the hell does he have to do with Wang, other than that they are both Asian? One’s a short lefty who can’t get the ball down, the other was a big power righty who got the ball down. Why is there even a comparison here?
you don’t give 4 million dollars to a sinkerball pitcher with a shoulder problem and pre-exisiting injury history, in an overall down market
Nick-
I find myself very much in agreement with your point of view.I wish things had turned out differently. I hope he can find a better offer. If he does manage to return to form which the Yankees appear to think is doubtful They are going to kick themselves in the rear for not having taken even a small risk. This may turn out to be a “bad” bet for the Yankees though i am not wishing that on them, and it remains to be seen. Long road back for wang but he is still relatively young is resilient and an uncommonly hard worker.
randy l.
December 13th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
“The point of the above fable has more to do with your insinuations about Brian Cashman than anything about Neil Allen.”
nickster-
you are so so far behind the curve.
that’s not like you. must be on vacation or on cia assignment somewhere. ( that nick in alexandria way back gave you away)
————————————————————
I don’t think nick’s with the CIA. I think he’s either an Egyptologist or a gynecologist. He’s definately an ist of some sort.
ALso, if CMW can prove he’s healthy, he will have no problem finding a guaranteed deal. What he accomplished wasn’t luck. People crapping on him, or calling him lucky or a 1 trick pony, don’t realize how good a pitcher he is. One horrible season in which injuries, injury/rehab mismanagement, and huge drop in confidence played a big role. This pitcher is talented enough to bounce back somewhere, he has proven himself, he just has to get healthy and know he can have great success again in this league. He’s shown it.
murphydog, good point on the different types of surgery.
But that doesn’t mean Wang can’t get healthy again. Maybe I value the optimistic words of Dr. Andrews too much, but it seems like he’s progressed as well as could be hoped for.
I doubt the Yankes will be kicking themselves.They do not believe Wang will be all that effective THIS year. They aren’t going to pay him $4 million to be mediocre/unhealthy. They will get another pitcher now or later…..By next year, we will have more of an idea of Joba and Phil…and they can still get another pitcher. The idea that the Yankees are going to collapse because they don’t have Wang is ridiculous.
“I do not think that the Yankee organization should be forced to compete not only against the other teams in MLB but also against the negative perception created by so called “news” organizations like ESPN.”
I suspect that there is much snickering in GM suites across this fine land when ESPN runs with its stories. I believe that real GMs can identify who said what to who, and who is the source for stories and quotes. (Oh that’s Amaro running off his mouth again, or, that’s Theo’s pet peeve of the month…). It’s all taken with a big grain of salt within MLB.
Of course there are times that ESPN like any other media outlet scoops a story and then they are leading the industry by the nose. But by and large, in the industry in which the Yankees compete, IMO, ESPN is not hurting the Bronx Bombers.
Murphy-
Then i guess you think that Mitre is a good risk ? What exactly has he given us ? And I know, he can at least take the ball yada, yada, yada. And I understand about Tommy John. But what has he Shown (not much) ?
Right……the Yankees offered Wang a chance to prove himself healthy (and then the deal would have become a major league deal – guaranteed $$$). He turned it down..
GB, I have to go for another bone scan, this time it’s called an Indium blood cell count scan…..It’s to rule out any infections / cancer issues…..I’ve had four hip surgeries since 1995….I just want to get back to Physical Theraphy and then onto the links…..I’ve haven’t step foot into a gym since late August, and I’m starting to lose the battle of the buldge…..Seems as though the Yanks are rolling the dice on Wang, hoping they get him back at a discount……
Nick in SF:
“Maybe I value the optimistic words of Dr. Andrews too much, but it seems like he’s progressed as well as could be hoped for.”
OK, maybe I’m just being extra cynical today and for that I apologize, gentle reader.
But what else would we expect Dr. Andrews to say? “I may have done a bad job in the surgery and in overseeing this guy’s rehab…this guy is toast.”
Again, maybe it’s the cynical pills I took at 4:00 pm, but Wang could theoretically progress 100% through rehab and have had a “successful” surgical outcome and never be able to pitch well enough again.
Sigh. Being a lawyer sucks. You never trust anybody or take anything at face value. Just ask my ex-wives.
If they offered him a deal where he could prove himself healthy then I don’t see what people are complaining about.It is his choice to say no. Good luck to Wang.
Wang, whom I really admired, was not admired by the organization. He was not a strikeout pitcher, irrespective of his two 19-win season. Further, he was making $5+ mil after those seasons, and was 8-2 before his injury. Imagine what he could have commanded in salary had he been able to continue. I’m not sure the Yankees would have ever paid him, frankly. Not saying that this is their out, but they were always wary of his injury history, and his being a contact (groundball) pitcher. The Yanks like swing-and-miss types, and pay only them handsomely.
murphydog
The problem is when the non “real” GM’s take postive Red Sox quotes and reviews from people like Gammons, Law, Callis and other ESPN personalities as law. I believe the real snickering comes from Gammons when the Red Sox spin some of his fantasy creations into actual players. Thankfully, he won’t have ESPN as a platform anymore for his latest Red Sox can’t miss “prospects”.
LOL @ murph.
MTU:
“Then i guess you think that Mitre is a good risk ? What exactly has he given us ? And I know, he can at least take the ball yada, yada, yada. And I understand about Tommy John. But what has he Shown (not much) ?”
Your questions are all fair. It may come down to a couple of things. 1) He has more than one pitch which the Yankees like as opposed to having only one really good pitch like Wang, which the Yankees seem to treat with less respect; 2) He’s coming off Tommy John and demonstrated progress last year. He’s not coming off shoulder surgery and remaining an open question as they head into ST.
Pat M.
December 13th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
GB, I have to go for another bone scan, this time it’s called an Indium blood cell count scan…..It’s to rule out any infections / cancer issues…..I’ve had four hip surgeries since 1995….I just want to get back to Physical Theraphy and then onto the links…..I’ve haven’t step foot into a gym since late August, and I’m starting to lose the battle of the buldge…..Seems as though the Yanks are rolling the dice on Wang, hoping they get him back at a discount……
————————————————————
PAT, I feel forunate, then. After 36 years in the military, and 33 years of jumping out of planes, I only broke 4 bones and never hurt my back or any joints….unless you count the 10 that I broke when I rolled over after hitting the ground. It was especially tough because I didn’t have any spare Zig-Zags.
I’d hate to have the back and hip joint issues. I still like to run and that would put a crimp in that. Hope all goes well in your check-ups, Bud.
The Yankees are wrong in not valuing Wang because he isnt a strikeout pitcher. He was a damn good pitcher when he was on and healthy. I know the decision is based on injuries but I find that laughable they didnt value him back then.
Dear Colonel Rupert:
“The problem is when the non “real” GM’s take postive Red Sox quotes and reviews from people like Gammons, Law, Callis and other ESPN personalities as law. I believe the real snickering comes from Gammons when the Red Sox spin some of his fantasy creations into actual players.”
It’s sticks and stones, sir. Just sticks and stones. Let them say what they will and come the end of the WS let’s see who gets the last laugh.
I’ve been to Birmingham, murphydog. I’ve stood next to the Vulcan statue and looked down onto that fine city.
Sure, Alabaman Dr. Andrews is going to put the best spin onto his work, but he’s also not going to blow undue smoke, especially when the hopes of a nation (from the POV of the Taiwanese; a renegade province from the POV of the gangster regime in the PRC) are riding on his prognosis.
I have no quarrel with cynicism, but I have seen the Yankee hats over the happy eyes and warm smiles of Wang fans on the streets of Tapei, Tainan, and Kaiosung; in the Taroko Gorge and the mountain village of Lishan; on the beaches of Kenting and at Alishan at sunrise. Until hope is extinguished, I will believe that Wang’s career as a Yankee doesn’t have to die.
I’m fine with the Wang thing, but I agree – Mitre stinks and is a waste of over $1 million. I trust Cash, so I won’t kill him on it – I just don’t get it.
Well Gaudin was a smart re-sign.
Wow. Does everybody realize there’s no DL in the offseason so Wang would have taken up a roster spot, even though he can’t pitch?
Betsy-
OK. We can agree to diagree but the Yanks made a bet with Wang. They bet several things actually. That he can’t get a better offer. That the odds of him returning to form are low. But i ask you. What if by some slim chance he does beat the odds, and the yanks could have protected themselves against that for say 1 Million dollars. Wouldn’t that be worth it ? Think of it as a cheap form of insurance against the possibility that Wang will return to form elsewhere. I assume Cashman must have asked himself questions something like that and decided that the “insurance” wasn’t even worth 1 penny. Is he that good of a decision maker in your view ?
Is any GM ? That’s all I am saying. Now we can continue to be civil to each other as I always try to be to all.
“Until hope is extinguished, I will believe that Wang’s career as a Yankee doesn’t have to die.”
You’re a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
colonel rupert: were you in Brewster’s Millions? Or do i have my ruperts confused?
murph
You can call me Congressman.
“Well Gaudin was a smart re-sign.”
———————————-
I like Mitre too. I see skills
Jacob Ruppert:
Thank you, sir.
(I am saluting, by the way).
Mitre isn’t bad. He has natural movement on his ball. You never know if he can progress and be solid. Him sucking last year can’t be judged all that much.
If the Yankees have in mind a top shelf starting pitcher that they think they can add, Wang’s rehab, redemption, resurgence whatever you want to call it is moot.
That being said, I hope Torre convinces the Dodgers to sign Wang. I’d like to see him regain his old form and lead that Dodger’s staff.
I know CMW would have taken up a roster spot. But so did Andrew Brackman upon signing his 1st contract.
MTU, of course we will continue to be civil – it’s just a disagreement after all.
Cash is a pretty darn good GM – even if I disagree with him here, it wouldn’t change my mind. The fact that they didn’t offer him any guaranteed $$$ tells me that they don’t think Wang is going to be effective/healthy in 2010. If they thought there was a good shot, they would have done it.
Corey-
If you say so. And yes he does have a lot of movement on the ball but it seems to be away from the proximity of the strike zone. I know – TJ pitchers command is the last thing to return but i am not at all convinced his will. Doesn’t seem like a good relief type either. Where’s the value ???
Wang better walk between the bases if he’s in the NL.
Just last resort insurance. That is all.
You would brett ? when for just a small amount he might have been able to do that again for us ? Curious.
Corey-
Couldn’t wang have been considered “last resort” insurance as well ?
MTU,
Yes, if the pitcher the Yankees feel confident about adding would perform at Wang’s level long-term.
I believe that Lackey is as good as Wang would be if every single aspect of Wang’s rehab is so successful that Wang is able to pitch like his old self for 4-5 more years.
River Ave Blues is reporting that the Yankees offered Wang a split contract which would ensure him that he would be on the active roster after he got healthy.
Wang turned it down…it sounds like he has his mind made up to go elsewhere.
http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....fer-21235/
MTU: Possibly but how much more effective would he be then Mitre? We saw how he was last year. Plus he would be making 4 million dollars or so?
Corey-
I do not want to beat a dead horse but 2 points:
It might not have cost 4 Mill
Wang if healthy is infinitely more valuable than Mitre.
By the way, NEW Thread.
You’re either with the Yankees are you face their offense.
Damon said he didn’t want to face the Yankees offense. That was of course before Boras (The demon seed) stuck his venom in his brain and he lost his mind.
So it looks like Wang is gone, he’ll experience what the other pitchers who face this offense do.
From a business standpoint, how could the Yankees pay CMW $4 million for half a season – if he recovers. His name isn’t Roger.
I’ll miss him though, and hope against hope that he can return to form (2011?), whether with the Yankees or elsewhere. After all, we may have a #3 spot available next season – presuming Andy decides to call it a career.
It would appear that the Yankees don’t want Wang back:
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo....._wang.html
A one year offer at one or two million with incentives and a team option would have likely brought him back. I think its insulting to offer him a minor league contract. Particularly when they’ve offered Mitre arbitration. If this pitching depth then I’m thinking we will see a repeat of 2009 where we have no legitimate fifth starter. If anyone is hurt then Cashmen will have to deal from weakness, not strength. Those of you touting Gaudin as legitimate fourth or fifth starter material are dreaming. Look at his record before becoming a Yankee. What did San Diego give up Gaudin for – $50,000. These guys are the pitching equivilants of Cody Ransom. No loyalty demonstrated at all to guy who came on the scene in 2005 and took the world by storm. That’s not something I like about this regime.
“Randy I, You’re fighting for a Noble cause, it’s just too many to ward off…….”
pat m-
he’s always had shoulder troubles throwing sliders which i showed numerous times today. the earlier yankee coaching staff didn’t want him throwing sliders.
there are ways to throw the slider where the pitcher doesn’t supinate ( turn doorknob to the right) .
a pitcher can just pull the string ( like pulling down on the string on a shade or blinds) without supinating.
i think it’s likely wang supinates when he throws the slider.
neil actually showed me a way wang could throw a slider without supinating, but he’s not there to show wang, so that doesn’t help much.
wang could protect his shoulder by pronating( turn the doorknob to the left) which is in effect what he does by using pressure with his index finger to throw the sinker.
all in all, i i’m setting up one big ” i told you so” or one big ” i’m an idiot”.
no guts, no glory.
by the way, i did shoot a 78 the other day .
the only problem was it was at the end of 17 holes.
in light of Accenture dropping tiger woods this is kind of ironic.
Accenture name was Andersen consulting and changed it’s name to Accenture.
“Andersen Consulting’s change of name proved to be fortunate as it avoided the taint when Arthur Andersen was effectively dissolved as a result of its role in the Enron scandal.”
[edit]“- wikipedia
Comet
1.I’d love a repeat of 2009 WS yr (Wang was on the DL by the way.)
2.Mitre should be much better,being he did have TJ surgery,and will be further along in healing.
3.Gaudin,when he pitched Yankees won every game.
4.You or I don’t know what Wang’s medicals really suggest. 5.He has received millions for 2008-2009 while on the DL.
6.This is a business,bottom line count.
7.To say the Yankees,didn’t want him back,or wasn’t loyal,shows you’re emotional.
Yankees over pay if anything!
Wang will be sure to love reading this post to learn that he is so much appreicated.
“He was on his way to a third season as a frontline pitcher, going 5-0 in April of 2008 and was 8-2 when he tore ligaments in his right foot while running the bases against the Astros in July. An AL pitcher suffering a career-altering injury running the bases. It was freakish. And Wang was never the same.”
DAMN you NL!
I still remember that game.
Happy trails to the Wanger!
wang was the man its sad he hurt his foot like that …they should allow pinch runners for AL pitchers so stuff like that dosnt happen
I always wondered what Wang’s record (and ERA) would have been like had he had a team that was above average defensively behind him. In 2006 the Yanks were dead last in fielding. In 2007 they were 5th worse in the AL. In 2008 they were second to last in the AL. Yes, he won games because of the run support he received from the offense, but an ERA of under 4 with that crappy defense deserves a medal.
Betsy,
Why you hate Wang so much? If you think that it’s absolutely correct for Cashman to do the business decision, it’s only fair for Wang to explore the best option out there.
Well said, Sam. I LOVED Wang. Very sorry to see him go.
just catching up on posts from over the weekend (was off Monday). Great post Sam!