Matsui to the Angels, one-year deal
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 14, 2009 
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It appears several writers got the same email from Hideki Matsui’s agent, Arn Tellem. He wrote to Sam saying, ”I can confirm that we are in serious discussions with the Angels. I have no further comment.”
Tyler Kepner at the Times, though, is reporting that it’s a done deal with Matsui getting a one-year contract to become the Angels new designated hitter.
UPDATE, 8:47 p.m.: The Associated Press agrees that the Matsui deal is done.
It’s the latest in what has been a surprisingly eventful day, especially for the Red Sox.
• All indications are that the top free agent starter, John Lackey, is going to Boston on a five-year deal.
• A source of considerable love-him-or-hate-him debate here in the LoHud comments, Mike Cameron is also linked to the Red Sox on a two-year deal.
• Also, the Red Sox are said to have offered Aroldis Chapman a $15.5-million deal, but that appears to be a long-standing offer. Chapman is supposed to throw a bullpen for several teams, including the Yankees, tomorrow.
• Away from Boston, the top pitcher on the trade market, Roy Halladay, seems to be heading for Philadelphia, which will then ship its top pitcher, Cliff Lee, to Seattle.
• Somewhere, Jason Michaels is wondering why no one cares that he signed with Houston.
UPDATE, 9:23 p.m.: The Associated Press has also confirmed the Cameron deal. Also, Kyle Drabek is now said to be a part of the Roy Halladay trade. So the Phillies are giving up Drabek, plus one of their top outfield prospects — probably Michael Taylor — and it seems J.A. Happ, Joe Blanton and top prospect Dominic Brown all took physicals and could be part of the deal. A significant part of that group, plus Cliff Lee? Doesn’t that seem like a lot to upgrade from Lee to Hallada? Maybe not, but I assumed when Lee was in the deal, the Phillies would only have to include one prospect and maybe a solid big leaguer like Blanton.
UPDATE, 10:12 p.m.: Apparently one of the Mariners’ prospects is going to Philly. That makes more sense.
not happy
Holliday is starting to look like a better option to me…
Yanks will now turn their attention toward fixing the hole in left.
Hey Cashman?
WTH?!?!?
Most of these moves are not too bad for the Yanks. Phili is not really all that improved, if at all. Lee was as lights out as any pitcher can be, and the Yanks still won the WS. Lackey is good, but the Yankees have had a lot of success against him. It was time to move on from Matsui, and Cameron to Boston is a major downgrade if they, as a consequence, don’t bring back Bay or go get Holliday.
The Yankees are going to rue the day that they let Matsui get away. I hope Alex likes taking walks because he’ll probably walk 2 or 3 times a game.
Cue some madness from Yankee fans. They’re all playing “catch-up” people- Cashman knows what he’s doing.
Phil-
My priority would be finding another starter but I guess they can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.
I think the Yankees will sign Chapman if he is impressive tomorrow.
Ok, so what the &*^% are we doing to fill the hole? Who’s our DH? Who’s in LF? Why did we let Matsui go? Seriously…
Kevin (not that Kevin Brown) –
Was Vlad that bad, too?
If so, then I guess they’re used to that scenario. But this time without Figgins.
MTU,
there is no pitcher worth making a priority out of on the market anymore. The big ones are all spoken for, and if we just want to get a guy, we can wait till that market goes down. Meanwhile we just lost our 130 OPS+ #5 hitter. We didn’t go forward today.
I’ll miss matsui, and i hope he does well in anaheim. I don’t know why people are so upset about halladay, we won’t have to face him at all this season (unless we meet in the WS, but then who can complain, we’re in the WS anyway without him), and we didn’t have to give up any prospects to get that to happen
Lackey is an interesting addition to the sox rotation, and will probably help them out this season, but 5 years? i’ll give him 2 before he starts to become dead weight. I’m glad the yankees didn’t sign him, it wouldn’t have been the right move to make, due mainly to the length of the contract. The sox wanna sign him? go ahead.
I don’t agree Phil. Sheets is Very worthwhile if healthy, and affordable. There are more left fielders and DH’s on the market than quality arms.
Surprised that Matsui jumped on with the Angels that quick, happy Halliday is leaving the AL East. I think adding a quality arm and Damon would be enough, but it I wouldn’t be surprised if they brought in Holliday to play left.
What a day. I was all for letting Matsui go but now Im really upset. What do you all think? Do the Yankees have to make a move to respond?
Holliday’s wRC+ is even better than his OPS+:
Career: 139
2009: 146
“Do the Yankees have to make a move to respond?”
No, they just need to make a move.
re-post for maximum impact:
Uh oh.
Disneyland just announce the new and improved Matsuihorn ride.
“Ride on a flume of knee fluid through the lifelike scale model of the crevices on new Angel Hideki Matsui’s face.”
Talk about cross-marketing meets Japan revenue!
Holliday is great but he wont come cheaply.
I think it’s just hard to see other teams getting players that THIS BLOG has wanted the Yankees go after.
I’m okay with all the deals (except will miss Matsui), but reading them in the way Chad just did, in list form, is like taking a punch.
Still, off-season is far from over, and I believe Cashman is not done and also Cashman is not too upset.
Could be Boras is high balling Damon to Yanks to get them to go for Holliday.
*By respond I meant to the Sox move to get Lacky.
This is ridiculous. I can’t believe the Yanks let a 35 year old with bad knees sign with another team when he could have played a terrible left field for us instead.
And who’s going to fill the DH now? We’re going to have to waste our DH spot giving days off to Jeter, A-Rod, Posada, and other guys. I think we’re going to be battling Baltimore for last place, SERIOUSLY GUYS.
Sheets isn’t too affordable right now since he wants around $12 mil. If he comes down to 7-9, then it is intriguing.
“Holliday is great but he wont come cheaply.”
He won’t cost prospects.
So let me get this straight, Cashman in one day made no effort to get lakey, matsui, halliday, or anybody else. What the heck is he thinking, and Damon is also up in the air, wow! one step forward at the winter meetings and two steps back after, great job cashman and he also lets wang go, whew!
Im not crazy about Matsui leaving either. For a 1 year deal I dont know why the Yanks wont take a flyer. The other moves I dont see as huge deals.
Lackey’s best days are probably behind him. He will probably give them a good year but 3 or 4 years from now I bet its an albatross. The Angels are a smart franchise. If they let Lackey walk without a fight, it tells me they dont think he’s worth the long term investment.
Yes Philly got Halliday but they also gave up their best pitcher in Lee to do so. I see it as only a marginal upgrade in talent despite Mets fans freaking out. If they had held onto Lee and still made the move its a different story but too trade Lee in the process doesnt remarkably improve them.
Cameron strikes out a ton and is overated defensively. Not a big deal.
This Cuban pitcher is totally unknown.
Bottom line: Despite the buzz I dont think anyone remarkably improved today.
MTU,
“if healthy” necessarily removes him from priority. Let’s let the market come down on any unhealthy players we might want to try repeating with.
Do the Yankees have an unlimited budget ?
Either Holliday or Bay to the Yanks. Melky to RF, Swisher DH.
“Do the Yankees have an unlimited budget?”
They were willing to take on Halladay’s contract.
Phil-
Do we know what Sheets market really is ? Why not find out ?
No, but they could.
Bay could be Lf/Dh, since it appears Boston is moving on. Is Seattle still in the market for a hitter even after taking on Lee’s contract? I expect they are since his contract is under $10M. Holliday will likely interest the Angels, Giants and Cardinals. Anyone else?
I hate to see Matsui go because I think he would have been a bargain at one year, but there are other options for DH. The Yankees do need to grab another bat or two but I don’t think it will be difficult.
Bay in LF in NYS would, in Francesserese, be a disasta.
NOOOOOOOOO.
This breaks my heart.
No Phil they should.
Were we even given a chance to match Matsui’s offer.
lets get vlad and sheets, light this candle.
not sure I like the idea of Lackey w/ the Red Sox
Holliday’s better than Bay. Bay will probably be a Met tomorrow.
hopefully yanks will make some more moves .and do it before its too late..be nice if we could get a affordable good starter to go with our rotation that way hughes or joba can go to pen..hopefully damon comes back or we get another LF..like to have more offense if we lose both matsui and damon..they were very productive last year
MTU,
Why is that?
Doubtful Cash goes for Sheets. He is looking to the future which is why he didn’t want Matsui and apparently Damon.
Young and healthy seems the direction he wants, not 1 or 2 years quick fixes. Better to part ways a year too soon than a year late.
As I said in the other thread, I doubt we’re in for Chapman. We have a budget – Hal is very strict about it – and no way will Cash splurge on a project. I don’t get why they can’t be patient – the Sox will land this guy and in a few years he’ll be a 100 MPH throwing LH starter. Good luck to the Yankees trying to find an arm like that in the draft, where they pick.
Cashman has always sucked. I have always hated most of his moves, but I was prepared to give him a pass this year because – for the first time since he inherited the team that others put together – he finally won a World Series. Then again, even a blind man could have seen that CC and Tex were good.
UNLIKE Igawa, Kevin Brown, Carl Pavana, Javier Vasquez, Jose Contreras, Felix Heredia, Jeff Weaver, Esteban Loaiza, Shawn Chacon and others.
Anyway, I was prepared to give him a pass, and maybe I still will, but this is a bad day. I had been hoping for Lackey or Halladay, even if we had to give up Joba or Hughes and Montero for Halladay. Or money for Lackey. Not getting one of them, though, combined with losing Matsui, makes it another crappy Cashman day. Damon, I don’t care about as much, although I like him as a player.
Are we really going to start the season with just the big three plus two guys who can come out of the bullpen, but are really not too hot as starters? I like Aceves. I hate Mitre. We’re looking pretty thin, rotation-wise right now, and I know we just won it all with a three man rotation. The stars really have to align for that to happen.
Oh yeah, we also let Wang get away. He was surely worth another shot. Two stellar seasons. The third one begins 8-2. Yes, bad injuries. Yes, you don’t know what’s going to happen, but do you really not give him another chance?
Cashman is the worst judge of pitching in all of baseball.
The Yankees had the cash and pieces to get Halladay, and/or Lackey, and/or sign Matsui. They chose not to. They didn’t get robbed today. Trust the force.
We have lost only half of the offense of Damon/Matsui. Granderson says hello.
Bay, however, would not be exclusively a DH. It seems an option but not one I recommend.
Whoever thinks Cash just sat idly by while these deals got done is flat-out crazy. Lackey wanted too many years/ too much money, Matsui wanted to play the field for some stupid reason, and Halladay was going to cost too much in the prospect department. All are perfectly legit reasons for Cash to decline deals with any of them.
SJ, CC is great. I love AJ – he’s fine. Andy? I personally don’t think he’s going to be as good as he was in the 2nd half this year. Joba? I have to be honest – I have zero clue what to expect from him. Phil? You know I love him, but to me (assuming he’s a starter), this is a year for him to have growing pains.
I see Beckett, Lester, Lackey and Bucholz. Now, Bucholz isn’t great, but he’s very talented and he now has last year under his belt as far as experience.
I guess we’ll see……..If some people (not you) think I’m whining, well too bad. This is just how I see it. There aren’t a whole lot of promising pitching options (as you’ve said, you don’t think Cash is going to go into the season with 2 kids in the rotation)……and what’s up with LF? Cameron is about to give the Sox an amazing OF…….I’m just glad this is happening on one day, lol
It’s sad to see Matsui go, but his longevity as a DH was coming into question more and more.
As for Halladay, I can only say I’m sad and dissapointed we missed this opportunity.
Betsy,
Chapman’s deal probably wouldn’t come out of the luxo-taxable major league budget since he won’t be starting in the bigs.
I don’t know … call me an optimist, but I think the Yankees are going to be fine.
“As I said in the other thread, I doubt we’re in for Chapman. We have a budget – Hal is very strict about it –”
If they give him a mL contract, he’s off budget.
Hughes and Joba both have more major league innings than Bucholz and are both better.
Phil-
I believe he is next besy option out there, and I do not want to see someone else take him from under our nose, or more appropriately from behind our back.Get CC on the phone now.
I meant “best”.
Melky, Granderson, Swisher + Gardner
vs
Cameron, Ellisbury, Drew + Hermida
Actually very similar, defensively oriented outfields.
Granderson+Swisher provide some power for the Yanks.
Cameron+Drew provide some power for boston.
If we’re able to acquire either Holliday or Crawford, it tips the scale in our favor, as Bay has now been priced out of boston, leaving only the Metsies, Seattle, and Angels for his services.
I’m sorry, but since when do the Yankees have a budget?
I say sign Sheets for $8 million and load it up to $12 million with incentives for innings pitches, etc.. As for Matsui, it hurts seeing him join the Angels. The Sox seem to be pulling out the stops today. Not saying they did great, but Lackey as a 3 isn’t bad. Holliday, for all the haters saying he failed in the AL, do they realize he batted .283 with .378 OBP.. and had good offensive numbers for a guy with no protection really in the lineup.
I’m more for Crawford than Holliday any day.
Roy Halladay to the Phillies – fine, good riddens
Cliff Lee to the Mariners – meh, we’ll see him like twice a year and they won’t be a factor in the playoffs
John Lackey to the Red Sox – bolsters their starting pitching but it doesn’t exactly give me goodbumps. I think he’ll hit some injuries in a few years.
Mike Cameron to the Red Sox – who? .250 career hitter *yawn*
Aroldis Chapman – couldn’t care less who gets him, much hype that probably won’t pan out
The truth is, if the season started tomorrow I would still like our chances. I think we have a good team and this notion that we need to acquire every big free agent to win is ridiculous.
Why does nobody seem to get that the impasse between Matsui and the Yankees was not money or length of contract but a difference of opinion on what role he would play – Matsui sees himself as a LF who can DH, and the Yankees see him as a DH only. There was no way the Yankees were changing their mind on this one.
I suppose the Yankees were taking a chance that other teams had the same opinion as they did about Matsui. All it took was one team to make the leap and the promise that Matsui would see playing time in the outfield.
Get Holliday and wrap up the offseason. Your lineup is done – DH by committee works if you have Swisher and Posada splitting time there, with Swish playing some RF to give Melky a break. It’s a fine defensive outfield and a great lineup. They will hope that the young guys have matured and can get some wins as starters.
Matsui was a nice guy and I’ll miss him, but this is the right call. You need to go where the puck is heading, not where it has been. He’ll be productive player, but Yankees are right to look to the future.
The criticisms of Cashman are emotional and have 0 credibility when the man just won the WS.
Valerie,
do you always pick the inferior player?
Based on the current market, Holliday seems like the choice that will be made. However if Cashman doesn’t make that move, it says alot about his plans for next offseason.
And one more thing, too bad Cashman couldn’t pounce on Josh Johnson now.. I can only dream! At least we know Joba and Phil and most importantly MONTERO aren’t going anywhere. That is a good thing!
I don’t blame Cash on Halladay unless the good Doc could have been had for less than two of Joba/Hughes/Montero +.
Halladay is off the FA market (guess he didn’t want to be a Yankee so badly after all), maybe Beckett (though I wouldn’t want him any…….who knows about Lee and Webb (and Webb may not even be healthy). You can’t plan for next year……If Lee loves Seattle, he may very well sign an extension. Seattle is a good team, they’ve got another stud in Felix, a great ballpark – why wouldn’t he want to stay there?
“As for Matsui, it hurts seeing him join the Angels. ”
Look on the bright side… at least the Yanks won’t have to face him in the playoffs. I don’t see the Angels getting past both the M’s and Rangers next year.
Doreen–I completely agree. The Yanks didn’t trust Matsui’s knees in the outfield, while other teams (aka the Angels) could see him in the outfield, which is what he would prefer to a full-time DH job.
Anybody that thinks Cashman will sit on his hands for the next 109 days is as delusional as a Red Socks fan or a good candidate for Bellevue.
The market will fall and Cashman’s plan will be completed ….. bank on it.
The Yankees are not one and done. Time heals all wounds.
Paul V
“Cashman has always sucked”
I know. Wake me when he wins a WS.
Phil, true…….but I get the idea that they just don’t want to spend the $$$. I don’t like having a budget, lol.
I hope Kevin Towers gets done soon – we need his expertise ASAP.
I am not on suicide watch or anything, but I am in disbelief that we just lost Matsui so suddenly. The report of serious discussions was put out there, and then he was gone.
Doreen-
thank you. spot on.
Cashman called the Tigers about Granderson after a World Series game. The Tigers GM thought he was crazy. Do people really think he’s “asleep” or not paying attention/aware of what is going on? If he wanted Matsui or Lackey he would have had them.
Phil–What do you mean? Crawford (if that’s who you’re referring to) is much better than Holliday…and younger, if I’m not mistaken.
as Bay has now been priced out of boston, leaving only the Metsies, Seattle, and Angels for his services.
———————————————-
If all else fails, why not Bay to LF?
“Cashman is the worst judge of pitching in all of baseball.”
Yeah … that CC signing was terrible … it’s not like he helped the Yankees win the World Series. Oh yeah, in case you’ve all forgotten already, the Yankees won the World Series weeks ago. WEEKS AGO.
Chapman is most likely going to want a deal that puts him on the 40 man, so he’d count for luxury tax purposes.
“I’m more for Crawford than Holliday any day.”
Yes, but Crawford isn’t an FA and will cost a lot of talent in return, while Holliday only costs a 1st round pick.
Holliday’s time in Oakland seems to be telling people he’ll be an AL failure, when he wasn’t actually all that bad there, and his numbers away from Coors have actually been pretty solid. The Yankees are far away from having any of their own OF prospects ready, so a sub 30 outfielder is a major asset.
Ok, Matsui didn’t want to be just a DH here, so he’s going to the Angels to be just a DH?? Did the Yankees even make an offer to him – could it have been less of an offer than this???
Re: Doc Halladay – at least he’s going to the NL where we won’t have to face him during the season but what a surprise this move was….especially with the Phillies dumping Lee…wow I’m surprised…..
Crawford is not better than Holliday.
Just want to remind everyone that we’re the world champs. Everything that all these other teams are doing is an attempt to get to where we are right now. We’re not the phillies, who are under pressure to improve their team after they bowed out to us. We’ve really only lost 2 main players so far from our championship team both of which are aging outfielders, one of which couldn’t even play the field. Does it hurt? A little bit, but guess what we’ve also ADDED a young top notch center fielder (both offensively and defensively) and we can only improve from here. Anyone who is worried is simply crazy. We were the best team in baseball last season, and as much as I liked them, it wasn’t damon and matsui who put us over the edge.
Doreen, I agree..Cash was right not to promise him any LF time. The guy’s knees are shot. Watch – the Angels will experiment with it, it will fail (more knee drainings to follow) and Matsui will end up being a DH anyway.
And how interesting that the Jays practically wanted our first-borns, but are taking “prospects” from the Mariners???
if it is indeed one year at 6.5 mil, I don’t understand why Yankees couldn’t have done this deal…. this is a sad day for me.
Inferior is rather harsh, no? After all, this is an opinion based dialogue as much as it is stat derived.
Hey if Brackman could get a major league deal needing TJ why couldn’t a healthy Chapman get one ? I wouldn’t assume a minor league deal.
jonathon c.–I don’t necessarily agree with you. Cashman is a great GM (we can see that by the recent WS win), but I think the Yankees wanting a specific player often has little to do with whether or not they can acquire said player. It oftentimes has a lot to do with who offers what. Though you’re probably right in that there has to be a reason Cashman would just let Halladay go…as much as I cringe to see Halladay go to the Phils, I trust Cashman to do what’s best for the team.
If they can’t offer him the contract he wants, the Mariners are not keeping Cliff Lee.
i have faith in Cashman !…
Sure let’s not trust Joba and Hughes, 2 guys who have gotten ML hitters out and combined make what, maybe $1 MM. But let’s throw $15MM at a pitcher from Cuba, who has never thrown 1 ML pitch. But he did do well in the WBC, but then so did Ponson! (Sarcasm). Being the GM of the NYY, Cashman has been through it all. He knows what he is doing and will once again deliver a Championship caliber team.
I wonder if Cashman forgot to take part in these free agent signings and/or available trades. Maybe he has something up his sleeve. The Teixeira signing was a big surprise.
Lackey didn’t particularly impress me, so I’m not worried about that. Halladay was one of those intriguing possibilities, but I didn’t want see the farm pilfered for the privilege.
As for Godzilla, I’m cringing at the thought of a fan favorite going to off a a rival team, particularly one I really can’t stand (but not as much as the BoSox). Root for the uniform, not the player, as the saying goes. I wouldn’t want to see that come back to haunt the Yankees next season!
Phil–show me stats to back that up, please.
Mike-
usually faith is reserved for religion.
http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....-1.1652356
If Ben Sheets has multiple suitors, and I have to think he will, then don’t expect the Yankees to be the high bidders. The Yankees met with Sheets during the 2008 winter meetings in Las Vegas, and they backed away from him shortly after.
Yes, they were concerned about Sheets’ physical well-being; how could they not be? But they also held worries about Sheets’ clubhouse personality. Sheets frustrated Brewers teammates and superiors by missing so many starts over the years with injuries. The Yankees didn’t want to get hit with the same agita.
Holliday:
wOBA: .400
wRC+: 139
Crawford:
wOBA: .343
wRC+: 111
Crawford is one year younger.
DaSaint,
I’m sorry stats speak truth, opinions don’t alway.
Actually, does it matter that Crawford is not better than Holliday? Is it written that we must have the best available player? I don’t think so. He could be, in your mind Phil, inferior, but other factors could play a role in a selection:
Budget
Range
Speed
Makeup
So sometimes the ‘inferior’ player could be the better choice, though not the better talent.
So Holliday will be expensive and some question his ability to perofrm in NY. Damon is old, a liability in LF and is asking for multiple years. What would it take to pry Crawford from TB? Obviously, inter-division trades are hard to pull off but I’d be curious what it would take to get it done for this year. Then we can trade Melky, Gardner or Swisher (as much as I love him) for a bag of balls and start the season as far as I’m concerned.
Betsy-
CC knows sheets. they were team mates. This could be checked rather easily, no ?
“Crawford is not better than Holliday.”
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I am starting to agree. I tend to discount Holliday’s numbers from the NL and see his time in Oakland as a failure, but the numbers don’t agree, and Crawford seems to be a player that always has great promise, but doesn’t deliver what you expect of him (e.g., hasn’t scored 100 runs since ‘05, low RBI numbers for a premiere corner outfielder). He’s attractive because of that great speed, and the SBs in front of the Yankees’ lineup would be nice, but Holliday will give them a lot more power and protection in the middle of the lineup.
Cashman has always sucked? I wonder how nobody in the Yankee Organization – or MLB or the baseball writers for that matter – has ever noticed this. Well, you learn something new everyday.
Phil-
depends on the stat, and how it is used. They dont always reflect the truth.
Betsy -
That’s exactly how I see it playing out. Maybe it won’t, but I wouldn’t take that chance as the GM of the Yankees. The chance of losing Matsui for any length of time compromises the whole team. You’ve got to plan for who plays for Matsui when Matsui can’t play.
Id rather have Bay than Holliday any day of the week
Budget
Range
Speed
Makeup
__
Production is all that matters.
Cashman will be sorry when Granderson is 0 for the playoffs with a million strikeouts. You need people who are clutch and who have been there, like Matsui and Damon. Look at the WS, they made the biggest plays.
“depends on the stat, and how it is used. They dont always reflect the truth.”
What does that even mean?
Stats are facts. You rebut facts with countervailing facts, not opinion.
Stark:
Halladay willing to take less money to go to Philly:
http://espn.go.com/blog/sports.....g-halladay
Crawford will be a FA at the end of the season. I’d rather wait a year and sign him than get Holliday. He’s a year younger, faster and better defensively.
I’m not about to get into a stat battle with Phil and Rich. But I’m sure that in life experiences, having the highest IQ, or the best stats don’t tell the whole story.
Holliday could be (not saying he is), less mentally capable of handling NYC than Crawford.
He could project to be much more expensive and therefore not fit the long-range team budget.
He could be allergic to Yankee Bluegrass for all I know.
Point is, stats do not always tell the entire story. If they did, we may have another SS.
Thanks for the backup, everybody
. The silence is because I’m looking up stats…
“Halladay willing to take less money to go to Philly”
I heard $23m a year. That’s quite a discount.
Can’t say I’m terribly upset by any of this news:
The Yankees weren’t going to sign Lackey
The Yankees weren’t going to trade for Halladay
The Yankees didn’t want Matsui back
I’m not terribly upset about Mike Cameron not coming here.
On another note, there’s been a lot of angst over the idea of the “rotating DH”. In the scenario I suggested earlier (where the Yankees ink an OF then play Swisher as the primary DH) a couple of things – 1. It wouldn’t be an everyday thing where there was someone new at DH each day and 2. Don’t think of it as a rotating DH – think of it as a rotating number 9 hitter.
Let’s say, sake of argument, Yankees sign Holliday – the opening day lineup:
Jeter
Granderson
Tex
Alex
Holliday
Posada
Cano
Swisher – DH
Melky – RF
Now, on a day when Alex needs to DH (as an example) the lineup is:
Jeter
Granderson
Tex
Alex – DH
Holliday
Posada
Cano
Swisher – RF
Ramiro Pena
So see, rather than benching Matsui and having to find someone to bat fifth – the only change would be to the 9th spot in the batting order.
“Thanks for the backup, everybody . The silence is because I’m looking up stats…”
The stats I posted blow your position out of the water.
The Yankees are getting younger. And healthier. Is that a bad thing? It seems so many knee jerkers with “I told you so’s” in their back pocket are always lying in wait.
Give Cash a break. He seems to be going in the right direction. To keep Damon and Matsui is to postpone the inevitable at the expense of younger free agents. It is a gamble but so is draining the last ounce from the past.
Wow. Crawford’s OPS+ for his career is 103, Holliday’ is 133. That’s a huge difference, one is a hall of fame level hitter for an OF, one is 3 ticks about average. Now, Crawford is a better defender, but Holliday is an above average defender. Crawford is a good base stealer but he only gets on base at a .335 pace. Holliday has gotten on at a .387 pace. Holliday has power, Crawford really doesn’t. The batting difference overcomes anything on Crawford’s side.
losing matsui’s bat is going to hurt more than losing damons
granderson might not hit lefties as well as damon or have as high of an obp but at least he replaces the hr & rbi & plays a better defense
who knows maybe miranda does well
my main concern is getting another starting pitcher
even the bullpen does not bother me
i think we have several options & i believe robertson will do great
if we can ever get a solid # 2 or 3 pitcher we are fine
i would love to do a big trade for a pitcher
if we can’t maybe we wait
another thing
was it smart for the phillies to add doc & lose lee & prospects??
“And how interesting that the Jays practically wanted our first-borns, but are taking “prospects” from the Mariners???”
This proves that TOR was really never interested in sending Halladay to a AL East team. Can’t say I blame them.
Jeter
Granderson
Tex
Alex
Holliday
Posada
Cano
Swisher – DH
Melky – RF
This lineup would make pitchers cry.
And by DHing Swisher and playing Melky in RF the Yankees greatly improve their outfield defense.
Only 3/60 for Halladay?
Am I missing something?
By the way, nice job trashing me when I’m not around Betsy. Again, instead of addressing the points and making an argument, you turn it into a personal attack against me and anyone who agrees with me.
Ever think maybe you’re the problem? No, that can’t be it!
Rich in NJ–he means stats say different things and you can’t view them blindly. Using how well a pitcher bats if he is traded to an AL team is relatively useless-it’s still a stat, but it isn’t as important.
Hideki Matsui is living proof that baseball is a business. There’s no room for sentimentality in baseball and hasn’t been any going back to the late 1800’s.
No. 55 was a good and very professional Yankee. Even if Cashman signed him, it would have been for just a one year deal and delaying the inevitable. He’ll forever be seen in World Series highlights of the 2009 season.
” You need people who are clutch and who have been there, like Matsui and Damon. Look at the WS, they made the biggest plays.”
There’s no proof that Granderson can’t be clutch or that some other player won’t rise to the occasion like Matsui and Damon did.
Valerie G.
That’s why I posted RC+ above. It is league and park adjusted.
Sorry, wRC+
Phil-
If you dont know what i meant then i dont think you know stats as well as you think you do. I am quite sure CB could explain concepts like Validity and reliability of Stats if he were here. Not all stats have those qualities and if they don’t they may not be measuring what people think they do. More complex statistics in baseball would have to be both valid and relaible to be worthwhile. there is more to it than simple counting sometimes.
So Phil, and Rich, if stats prove that Holliday is a no-brainer, then why hasn’t Cashman used his brain to sign him. The stats obviously speak for themselves and are all that matter.
Just a week ago Brian Cashman was the star of the winter meetings by trading for a great young centerfielder who also happens to be a real quality guy. This week he’s the worst GM ever because he didn’t sign John Lackey or swing a trade for Roy Hallady or Cliff Lee. How is that possible?
This lineup would make pitchers cry.
Rich – agreed.
I don’t know that it’s happening (the Holliday part I mean) but it’s possible.
Though there are rumors that the Angels are working on a deal to send Juan Rivera to Atlanta for Derek Lowe in part to free up LF for Holliday.
In any case, it doesn’t matter who the other OF the Yankees bring in is, Damon, Holliday, DeJesus – the scenario still works by playing Swisher (or Damon) at DH and Melky in the corner.
Look at the glaring hole in the batting order, the two spot. Even if Damon resigns, the hole will be there next year. Crawford fills that spot perfectly.
A hole in Leftfield and a hole in the order in the 5 hole ???? There is a solution to this…..I guess I should be keeping an eye out for a 6 foot Japanese man with a huge head searching for a home here in Newport Beach……..Sushi is plentiful here, almost like pizzeria’s back home in NY
Rich–Okay, firstly, your stats were relatively irrelevent. Secondly, Holliday strikes out more than Crawford and steals fewer bases. Overall, he might be better (power-wise) but we DO NOT need more K’s and we do need more speed.
“So see, rather than benching Matsui and having to find someone to bat fifth – the only change would be to the 9th spot in the batting order.”
Chip, when we “talked” about this two threads ago, I asked you how having Matsui be a full time DH turned out for the Yankees in 2009. Still waiting for an answer.
In all seriousness, I understand your point. I just happen to think that a rotating DH is unnecessary.
MTU, I wasn’t responding to you, I was responding to DaSaint, by walking him through just why Holliday is better than Crawford. I haven’t read what you wrote.
The Yankees won the WS last year, last time I looked. They are the reigning WS champs, last time I looked as well.
Hitting wasn’t exactly where they needed help. They gained back about 40-50% of what they lost so far with a younger, cheaper player in center. So they need a LF? OK, let’s look at the market today and in 2011. Who knows what trades will be available?
I would have liked Abreu or Mike Cameron on the cheap, but they’re older and more injury prone. Even Damon is injury prone–missing game 6 of the WS? Expect more of that in the future with an aging club. Mike Lowell is your future.
Holliday wants too much, and I’m not sure he’s a match for YS. Bay is a nice guy, but a career .270 hitter is not worth $16 x 5-let Omar pay too much for him.
Pitching, pitching, pitching, and LF. Granderson and Pettitte take care of both for this year, basically.
Let’s see what Cash has up his sleeve. The PS is not over yet.
Valerie, Crawford doesn’t get on base enough.
Remember the old saying gang: It’s better to let a guy go a year too early rather than a year too late.
“Halladay willing to take less money to go to Philly”
Another famous fella once had a similar thing for Philly. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/W._C._Fields
“Here lies W. C. Fields. I would rather be living in Philadelphia.”
This was an epitaph Fields proposed for himself in a 1925 article in Vanity Fair. It refers to his long standing jokes about Philadelphia (his actual birthplace), and the grave being one place he might actually not prefer to be. This is often repeated as “On the whole, I’d rather be in Philadelphia.”, or “All things considered, I’d rather be in Philadelphia.” which he might have stated at other times. It has also sometimes been distorted into a final dig at Philadelphia: “Better here than in Philadelphia.” His actual tomb at Forest Lawn in Glendale, California simply reads “W. C. Fields 1880 – 1946″.
It will be odd seeing Matsui wearing Angels red.
I have been on the Matsui bandwagon but since he is gone it makes no sense to fret about it. He’s gone. Now we move forward. Who knows, maybe the new young studs, of which Lackey was not, will jell and take us further into the promised land than the older, broken down. Cash deserves the chance, he has been sound of late.
Thanks for the response Phil.
So you’re saying that Holliday is better by way of his stats, and it seems that Rich in NJ agrees.
So are you saying therefore that since it’s the stats that matters, Cashman will inevitably sign him since he’s better than all other available options?
And if he doesn’t sign him, it’s because what? Other factors were more relevant? More than satats alone?
Pitt-
love that post. Especially the part about the hitting.
I’m a big proponent of “it’s better to let go a year too early than a year too late”.
I was always a big believer, but then David Cone drilled it into my head.
As much as I love Hideki Matsui, he’s not exempt from the rule.
Now, for a complete non-sequitur:
Curtis Granderson grounded into exactly ONE double play last season.
Strike out all you want, buddy. As long as you’re not killing rallies w/DPs you’re A-OK in my book.
“Rich–Okay, firstly, your stats were relatively irrelevent. Secondly, Holliday strikes out more than Crawford and steals fewer bases. Overall, he might be better (power-wise) but we DO NOT need more K’s and we do need more speed.”
They are irrelevant because…
No, Holliday gets on base more, SLGs more, and produces more runs.
“Just a week ago Brian Cashman was the star of the winter meetings by trading for a great young centerfielder who also happens to be a real quality guy. This week he’s the worst GM ever because he didn’t sign John Lackey or swing a trade for Roy Hallady or Cliff Lee. How is that possible?”
It’s not. He isn’t.
Paul V must really be Steve Phillips in exile.
Phil–true, but I don’t think that’s a big liability…
“It will be odd seeing Matsui wearing Angels red.”
It will. I’m just glad that he finished his Yankee career on top.
seriously I like Melky BUT never as a starter…The Yanks need to do something about left field quick…I prefer Bay over Holliday…Holliday is a terrible defender and does not seem to be an AL guy…Typical NL hitter
Chip, when we “talked” about this two threads ago, I asked you how having Matsui be a full time DH turned out for the Yankees in 2009. Still waiting for an answer
Sorry – I had logged off from work and didn’t see your comment.
Hey, I’m gonna miss Matsui too, but three key members of this team are on the wrong side of 30 (four if they bring back Damon) and there are a couple of injury questions in the lineup. I can understand why Cashman would want a more flexible option at DH.
Did we honestly think Boston wasn’t going to sign anyone. Of course they were.
No big deal. Cashman is too good of a GM to be distracted.
There is a reason why the Yankees didn’t go after Matsui. Cash knows better than all of you. Maybe he doesn’t think he’ll hold up another season. After all he knows what Matsui went through day after day just to DH.
And do you people seriously think that Cash is sitting on his hands watching free agents get signed? He is doing his due diligence. Would you rather he ran and signed Damon to a 14 million deal?
Step back and think rationally for a second.
“Why hasn’t Cashman used his brain to sign him?”
Either he is waiting for the market to set itself, or he can’t fit him in his budget.
But that budget better not have $10m for Damon.
So therefore the Yankees have no choice but to sign Holliday since the stats speak for themselves. Great! Glad thats all there is to it!
But then again, you’re not saying that he will be signed, you’re just saying he’s better, right?
“Curtis Granderson grounded into exactly ONE double play last season.”
This isn’t surprising. He probably beat the play at 1st with his speed.
Night gang.
Chip December 14th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Remember the old saying gang: It’s better to let a guy go a year too early rather than a year too late.
***********
Enter Matsui.
# Laura – So long, Matsui. You will be missed! December 14th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
“Curtis Granderson grounded into exactly ONE double play last season.”
This isn’t surprising. He probably beat the play at 1st with his speed.
*********
Either that or no one was ever on base.
@ murphydog
Thanks for the explanation!
“Enter Matsui.”
Damon should be right behind him.
DaSaint,
It seems like he might. We still have a hole in LF, and are no longer waiting to see if we can get Halladay. The price never came down for us and that ship has sailed. So he has one more slot and today passed on Matsui, who he probably would have offered a similar number to in a month or so. His eyes have turned somewhere else, and that’s probably to Holliday – adding a right side of 30 player like Holliday to the line-up and the D makes a lot of sense now.
Best of luck to the man my friends & I referred to as “UpperDecki”. A terrific hitter and a class act. I’m sure he’s as sorry to leave New York as we are to see him go. I’m just glad he eventually won a ring with us. His 8th inning double off Pedro in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS was one of the most memorable in Yankee history.
Hard to believe the Yanks let the 2009 World Series MVP walk away for a measly $6.5 mil. Let’s hope they use the money to fill the huge hole in the lineup Hideki leaves behind. I’m sure the hole will be plugged somehow.
everyone should just forget about Carl Crawford ever being a Yank….if a long term deal is not worked out with the Rays by mid season, he will be traded by the deadline(most likely out of the division/NL) so they can get some talent for him…he will never hit the market
i’m fine with lackey going to the sox for 5 years (way too big of a contract) and cameron going to sox but why aren’t we going harder for matsui? one year $6.5 million doesn’t seem like much… just give matsui the same deal and i bet he’d rather stay with the YANKEES! thoughts?
Yeah, Matsui has always been clutch in playoff games – like the elimination game against the Angels in ‘05 when he left 9 RISP and the Yanks lost.
True, Matsui was the WS MVP. Very true, he had an awful lot of big hits. But, just as true, he is aging. He has two knees which are hanging by threads. He cannnot play the OF. It is painful to watch him run. If his knees hurt too much, he cannot hit; this is why he needs occasional days off. As time goes on, he likely will not find the Fountain of Youth.
I am very glad Matsui got his ring, unlike Mussina, Giambi or Mattingly. But the fact is, the Yankees made a conscious decision to let him go.
The Yankees have the resources, in money or young talent, to get whatever player they want. Cashman knows about these deals going down long before we do. That is his job, after all, and other teams/agents will always check with the Yankees to see if the deals they have in hand can be topped.
Players that go to other teams are because Cashman and the Yankees considered them not to be worth the cost, for what the program they are building. Sitting at home we may disagree with the decisions made, but these are very thought out decisions. I do not think the Yankees are running an operation valued at over a billion dollars by making decisions off the cuff.
“Look at the glaring hole in the batting order, the two spot. Even if Damon resigns, the hole will be there next year. Crawford fills that spot perfectly.”
where do you bat Granderson? 5th? I would think he makes for a nice #2 hitter – he’s fast and gets on base. His power isn’t really wasted there in the Yankees lineup since the 8 and 9 hitters will get on base.
Valerie, it’s a HUGE liability. Teams only get 27 outs per game to use. The more you get on base, the less of your teams outs you are using. The most importang job a hitter has is to get on base and not make make outs. OBP is the most important offensive stat in baseball, and Crawford is weak there.
“Comet December 14th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
Stark:
Halladay willing to take less money to go to Philly:
http://espn.go.com/blog/sports…..g-halladay”
He does live close to the Philly’s Clearwater Spring Training complex, that could have been a factor
I haven’t said one word about BOS signing Lackey because I really could give a rat’s behind. Never liked Lackey; him going to BOS makes perfect sense for me. I can hate him with the rest of those bums. I would have had a bigger problem with Halladay going to BOS because as we all know, Roy is a Yankee killer. Lackey can be handled.
I don’t think Cash is asleep at the wheel. I think that he has a master plan that unfortunately did not include Matsui. I think he’s playing a waiting game with Damon. I also think that he has a pitcher in mind, but is trying to work out the details before he strikes. I have no complains about Cash. I think that for the most part, he’s been a pretty good GM (the Kei Igawa signing notwithstanding).
To be honest, I’m a bit more upset about Halladay than Matsui, which isn’t to say I’m not sorry to see Matsui go…actually, I’ve always been a big fan, so it’s a sad day, i’m just saying…
The letting go of Matsui wasn’t about money, it’s about the health of his knees and Cashman’s vision of how the Yankees lineup should look like in 2010.
A clutch, playoff-proven, lefty power stick who hits leties, never complains, and always plays through injuries? And who’s happy to take a one-year, small change deal to boot? Who needs that?
If Matsui had had last year’s season (and post season) for a different organization we’d have been tripping over ourselves to give him a multi-year deal.
This reminds me of when Cashman was too smart to bring back Andy, Clemens and Wells after ‘03, or El Duque after ‘04. Sometimes he’s just desperate to prove how smart he is, when he should just stick to what he does best: spending Steinbrenner money.
Sad day for the franchise. Long may you run, Hideki.
Holliday started off slow in Oakland, but why does everyone say it was a failure? His numbers were solid, but not spectacular..but by no means “failure” bad..
“To be honest, I’m a bit more upset about Halladay than Matsui”
Toronto didn’t want to do a deal with NY (or Boston).
Phil–Agreed, but look at how many times Holliday strikes out. How is that not a liability with how strike out heavy the Yanks are historically?
jennifer
December 14th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Chip December 14th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Remember the old saying gang: It’s better to let a guy go a year too early rather than a year too late.
***********
Enter Matsui.
——————————–
And David Cone, Bernie Williams, Tino Martinez, and many others before him.
Thunder Chop-sticks ? Rally Squid?
As if that team didn’t have enough of an identity crisis.
As for Holliday, the Yankees have the well over $20m off the books from Matsui and Damon, and Holliday can sort of replace both with Granderson playing center since he takes Damon’s spot in the field and pushes Swisher to DH, thereby replacing Matsui. Not an ideal DH, but a decent one that can share time.
Halladay is a unique guy – he wants to win badly enough that he’s forgoing a huge chunk of change. He got to stay in Florida (as far as Spring Training goes) and he goes to a very good team. I would have preferred he become a FA where we could bid on him, but I guess he didn’t want to wait. I hope he doesn’t get hurt hitting….he’d better start practicing.
Juan Miranda was signed out of Cuba when the Yankees knew Giambi would never be offered another contract and as a possible replacement when Giambi was gone.
Miranda has seen moderate success working up the levels but once Teixeira was signed it stalled any thoughts of being the next Yankee 1st baseman.
He might be better served if used as part of a deal.
First of all, who’s to say that Crawford signs an extension if he gets traded? He can still hit the market.
Grandy strikes out too much to hit in the 2-spot.
LA sold Sui on the idea he could play the OF for them. Let’s see how long that lasts. At least we were honest with him. LA is in a desperate state.
The Yankees still 15 mill more to spend….I have a hunch that they are going to make a run at Holliday….They could always trade Swisher and free up 5 mill as well….The only thing that concerns me is that 4th and 5th starter….
Jeter-SS
Granderson-CF
Tex-1b
Arod-3B
Holliday-LF
Posada-C
Cano-2B
Juan Miranda-DH
Melky-RF
CC
AJ
Pettite
??????
Hughes
Valerie, he may strike out, but he makes fewer outs than Crawford. Strike outs are neutral most of the time.
in cash we trust!
Are you kidding, Miggs? First of all, I am not going to hang around and wait for you to come back so we can discuss things. You tell me I am sick and need psychiatric help and then wonder why I talk about you the way I do. I would be perfectly glad to ignore you – you think I enjoy this? I don’t…..As to addressing your points, I’m not going to bother. Hard as it may be to believe, I do not appreciate being attacked personally. I don’t deserve it, no matter what you think.
Holliday is a superior player to Crawford and more importantly he projects to be over the next 5 years.
Averages per 162 games.
Holliday: runs: 109, hits: 195, doubles: 43, HR’s: 29, RBI: 112, steals: 15, AVG:.318, OPS:933
Crawford: runs: 98, hits: 194, doubles: 28, HR’s: 13, RBI: 75, steals: 54, AVG: .295, OPS: .772.
Holliday is better in every category other than steals and is significantly better in HR’s, RBI’s, Doubles, and OPS. Holliday’s game also translates better to growing older than Crawford’s as Crawford’s game is heavily reliant on speed with will diminish over the course of his next deal.
It makes no sense to wait a year on player who #1 isn’t as good as the player thats available now, and #2 may not even be available next year.
Phil–not when there are two outs.
matt–r u done with finals?
Betsy,
I have no idea what your history with Miggs is. All I saw him say is your acting delusional. I am sorry, but I have to agree. You are making it seem like Cashman is some 13 year old playing fantasy baseball. OH NOEEZZZ little Jimmy took player X in the draft before me. What am I going to do now?
Dude, is the GM of the biggest franchise in professional baseball. If there is something going on in baseball he is probably the first one to know about it. You also better believe that before any trade or signing goes down Cashman gets a call.
Do you honestly think that Cashman awoke from some sort of nap today and was like oh man, this stinks, my plan is ruined. You tricky Angels and Boston. You made all your moves when I was not paying attention. Come on. Be realistic. If he wanted Lackey he would have signed him. If he wanted Matsui he would have signed him. He has a plan. He is not some monkey behind a desk who has no idea what he is doing.
The reason why people keep singling you out is because instead of saying anything constructive you just come up with these irrational conspiracy stories. The latest one is the Yankees just giving up on Chapman and then in a few years he is some stud for the Red Sox. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but please at least contribute an opinion on something instead of just jumping off a bridge everytime something happens.
How about you tell us what you wanted Cash to do about Lackey? How about you tell us WHY you think the Yankees are not in on Chapman? Something, just please stop with the world is ending comments.
Randyhater, Cash didn’t make those decisions, Big Stein did.
“Grandy strikes out too much to hit in the 2-spot.”
Good point, I thought his OBP was higher than it actually is. Swisher also strikes out a lot, but has a higher OBP. Who do you stick in the 2 hole if you bat Granderson 5th and Swisher 6th?
MTU, good point.
I remember when Sheets was injured in 2008 – I could have sworn that people were wondering about his desire to pitch. I think Davidoff might be right – but I admit I’m not inclined to go searching for 2 year old articles.
Cameron, 2 years at 36 years old. No thank you!
Granderson was a better deal.
Chapman sounds interesting for sure.
Doc couldnt get a 4th yr from anyone? what his worth gonna be after the 3 yr extension??
What did Jays really get after all done? I never heard of these guys..
Chapman can be signed,,the money will be considered a sign bonus,,wont be payroll.
Strikeouts are soooooooo overrated.
Holliday averages 115 strike outs per 162 games.
Crawford averages 100.
Rosenthal says that Cameron’s deal is 15.5 over two years.
I loved Damon and Matsui like many here but lets face it, they are injuries waiting to happen. They helped get us #27 – time to move on. Does anyone really expect them to perform at the same level as they did in 2009? I think we got incredibly lucky with both of them. They both are wearing down fast. Granderson will make up 50% of their offense while providing a huge defensive upgrade. We can sign another OF/1B/DH power bat cheap in January if need be to make up the rest. My only concern is the starters. Phil and Joba need to turn that potential to performance this year as the 4th and 5th starter. AJ and Andy worry me. Worst case the kids go to the pen again and we trade for a vet starter (Ted Lilly maybe when the Cubs are out of it come July).
Point well taken guys, but I can’t be the only one who hates strike outs?
The only thing that concerns me is that 4th and 5th starter….
————————————————————
Don’t be spoiled. While you worry about a 4th and 5th starter, teams worry about their 1, 2 and 3’s. Why we worry about who our utility IF will be others worry about their entire team.
Sometimes it takes most of the season to get the pitching staff in order. Cash will give Joba and Phil their chance, it’s only fair. Get a LF and we will work things out.
Valerie, and tell me how many of those situations come up each season. Get me the number. Okay? He makes fewer outs than Crawford, he is a much better player. Deal.
“Long may you run, Hideki.”
If it’s really a long run, don’t forget to bring the bucket.
“What did Jays really get after all done? I never heard of these guys..”
Yeah, but how many top level prospects have we all heard about, especially if they are in the Seattle farm system. It’s not like people in other cities necessarily know who Montero or A-Jax are. I heard about Boston’s top prospects only this week and their names didn’t ring a bell.
So what is our contingency plan if we really are interested in Holliday and he goes to the Angels…….who will give him the $$?
Phil–This is supposed to be a discussion. If it makes you feel better, than yes, Holliday is a better player. But Crawford is better in some respects, such as SB’s and fewer strikeouts.
15.5 over 2…. that should lower Damons asking price.
The Rays would never trade Crawford to the Yanks……
I realize that strikeouts are overrated as a whole, but in certain spots in the lineup, you can’t afford to have a guy with that tendency.
Only real option right now is Robbie, but he is so bad running the bases I’d hesitate to put him there.
“15.5 over 2…. that should lower Damons asking price.”
Who cares? Damon should not be re-signed.
The Phils better be right that a Lee extension would of cost them more than Halladay’s. Halladay is obviously better than Lee but it just cost them there best pitching prospect if it’s true that Drabek is in the deal. I don’t think it was worth it. Lee can give them the same production that Halladay will. Very odd deal and the rest of the Phils rotation is a mess.
LA is in a desperate state.
———————————
Yeah California.
Is Mike Cameron going to play center or left?
i guess your right paco, it seemed the jays wanted babe ruth for doc tho..i wonder how the gurus will grade the trade..
young home grown is more fun to watch than free agents..i guess thats why everyone so possessive of theirs..
Cameron is playing left for the Red Sox.
mick:
“LA sold Sui on the idea he could play the OF for them. Let’s see how long that lasts. At least we were honest with him. LA is in a desperate state.”
You hit the nail on the head IMO. The Yanks were honest with Hideki, telling him he wouldn’t be playing the field for them. Sounds crazy, but the money may not have been the issue that caused him to break ties with the Yanks; the guy wanted to be in the field again before he hung it up.
I’ll actually be surprised now if the Red Sox don’t make a strong push for Adrian Gonzalez.
Lackey makes Buchholz expendable.
Buchholz, either Casey Kelly or Ryan Westmoreland, Lars Anderson and a lesser prospect is a strong package.
I think that gets it done for SD and I think the Sox recognize their need for a big bat with Bay gone.
marginally fewer strike outs. And his ability to steal bases would be more valuable if he cold steal first.
Im not hearing anything official about Mastsui yet on ESPN. Lets hope Cashman can swoom in and strike a last minute deal because I’d hate losing him. I have a funny feeling he is going to be real productive out in warm, sunny Anaheim. Seems like a perfect fit for someone with bad knees. Im a little surprised Anaheim didnt go after Delgado as DH too.
“FOXSports.com’s Ken Rosenthal reports the Red Sox and Mike Cameron are closing in on a two-year deal worth around $15.5 million.”
WOW – $15.5M!
“Who cares? Damon should not be re-signed.”
Just because that’s your opinion, it doesn’t mean everyone else agrees with it so yes, some of us care.
Betsy, we’re talking about him as a FA next offseason.
Carl Crawford will most certainly be a FA…no agent worth his salt would have him as a client and let him sign a deal 2mos away from free agency especially if they know the Yanks checkbook is waiting!
And Tampa ain’t coming anywhere close to market for him…they’d probably like to do something similar to what Chone got and that aint getting it done.
Damon shouldn’t be resigned. Just saying.
And Phil, you’re right. Holliday’s a better player.
Betsy the backup plan would be to sign the best pitcher available and then hope for the best. Unless they could explore a trade I don’t see much else out there in position players. I want no part of Bay unless its short term and he already has 4+ year offers.
Cameron is a downgrade from Bay. Nice guy, but not better.
100 pitches, i had heard all day that drabek and haap were not involved in the trade, where did you hear that?
LOl great, another option off the boards….
Cameron is a much better defender than Bay, but Bay’s the better hitter, is younger and is about to be a very rich Met.
Lucky the Sox haven’t been able to move Lowell, or they might have acquired Beltre, and another catching prospect.
I know Cameron was making good money but I guess I thought in this market he’d be lucky to get a 2yr contract at all… and certainly not for more than $5M per year.
ken, the new york times and ap both have confirmed the matsui signing.
Carl Crawford+long term contract=bad idea
With Cameron and Bay supposedly locked up it seems that Holliday is theirs for the taking. Guess Cash will be a genius again.
The Sox committed over 100M today. Will we ever hear a negative word about it in the media?
Cashman said that if the pitching fell through or was too expensive then he would move on to other things. I’m assuming that Halladay and Lackey were the pitchers he was talking about, time to move on to other things named Matt Holliday.
Granderson and Holliday would significantly improve the outfield defense and offense compared to last year and that could help offset the starting pitching depth problem if they aren’t able to do much in that area.
BD, is $15.5 million considered a lot?
Whew……I almost don’t even want Damon back. He’s older, he really struggled the last couple of months in the season, we’d have to deal with this garbage next year (and that’s assuming he signs for 1 year, which he won’t)……….I don’t really want Holliday, but I’m almost at the point where I just think we should go for it.
That is too much money for Cameron. Plus giving a 36 year old a 2 year deal doesn’t make sense. He strikes out a ton and he was facing bad pitching and now he will see a lot better pitching. I love when the Sox add more bad contracts to what they already have.
The San Diego Padres are not going to take bottom of the barrel prospects like Kelly and Westmoreland and Buchholz for Gonzalez.
Phil–Obviously not. It’s only the Yankees that spend tons of money on players, remember?
Blake-
We are on the same wavelength.
I was wondering to myself how many on this blog actually get it.
The loser today was the Mets
The winner was Seattle
The Phils are ever so slightly better
The Sox did not vastly improve themselves especially beyond this year. Lackey is good but not great.
Conclusion: The Yanks are not done.
My score card for this blog tonight is:
The 2009 Pitcher Trade
Accurate and these guys get it
Rich in NJ
Paco Dooley
jaake
Chris from NJ
eric
Doreen
ChrisV82
Don
Arno
murphydog
Joe from Long Island
Off The Mark and these guys are off the mark (
)
Phil
Laura – So long, Matsui. You will be missed!
Paul V
Betsy – high on pie
My wife wants me to watch The Closer with her so I had to cease my tallies. Of course, she had to pause it and wait until I got my 2 cents in.
Where is Trisha to add some spice and where is Erica to add her frills.
“Yeah … that CC signing was terrible … it’s not like he helped the Yankees win the World Series. Oh yeah, in case you’ve all forgotten already, the Yankees won the World Series weeks ago. WEEKS AGO.”
THAT WAS WEEKS AGO!!!!!!!!!!! Cashman needs to do something TODAY!!!!
Blake, I wish we could time travel back to last week when everything was peaches and cream. The options out there for the Yankees are not appealing in the least.
“Lucky the Sox haven’t been able to move Lowell, or they might have acquired Beltre, and another catching prospect.”
———-
Sox are opening up the wallets and the fact that they are willing to eat Lowell’s contract means that he isn’t really impeding them from signing Beltre from a $$ perspective.
I think they’ll sign Beltre because they’ve either traded Lowell or because Lowell is hurt (thumb surgery?).
Sox lineup:
CF Ellsbury
2b Pedroia
1b Youkilis
C VMart
3b Beltre
DH Ortiz
RF Drew
LF Cameron
SS Scutaro
jonathan c.
December 14th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
Cashman called the Tigers about Granderson after a World Series game. The Tigers GM thought he was crazy. Do people really think he’s “asleep” or not paying attention/aware of what is going on? If he wanted Matsui or Lackey he would have had them.
——————————————————-
yeah and more than a few bloggers on here were wondering about granderson 2 years ago…does that make them smarter than cashman…probably..w/o steinbrenners $$$ cashman ain’t too bright..
I heard its a top outfield prospect not Drabek that Philly is parting with. That being said, I guess Philly made this trade because they figure they wont be able to re-sign Lee but it makes me scratch my head a little bit. Instead of significantly upgrading and basically writing a ticket to the WS with a Halliday/Lee combo they only marginally upgraded here. Sort of a weird trade. I guess money enters into it because I wouldnt have dealt Lee in the trade.
Cameron was only a good idea for a 1 year deal, but the Red Sox probably knew they would guaranteed to get him if they gave him the 2nd year
i had heard all day that drabek and haap were not involved in the trade, where did you hear that?
————-
From Bob Elliott of the Toronto Sun:
RHP Kyle Drabek is in the Halladay deal, no Phillippe Aumont
The market for Holliday now becomes Angels (why now–they need pitching, badly), Cards, and Yankees. Not Seattle. No one else has the $$$$.
Assume they sign Holliday. They then spin Gardner plus something for pitching to White Sox or Royals. Or Melky to Cubs for something.
Who do the Cubs, White Sox, or Royals have pitching wise that the Yankees covet?
Valerie- I know, the small market Sox were just having to be a little more clever again;)
The Angels say they have no interest in Holliday and will not negotiate with him (probably because of Boras).
Some people need a history lesson –
1. Roger Clemens announced to the world that he was retiring after the 2003 season. I remember he got this big SUV as a parting gift from the Yankees. He then went back on his word and signed with the Astros after Andy Pettitte signed there. It was not a matter of Cashman not bringing him back.
2. Andy Pettitte had a contract offer from the Yankees, although belated. As it was, he lost a large part of playing time with Houston because of elbow injuries. This had been the Yankees concern.
3. David “back spasm, I can’t pitch in the World Series” Wells and El Duque were aging, and never again achieved their past glories.
4. David Justice, who was the most valuable player on that team that won in 2000, was a Cashman trade. As was Shawn Chacon and Al Leiter, without whom they would not have made the 2005 playoffs. And Nick Swisher, who provided a few good memories this season, I think.
If someone wants to hate Cashman, that is most definitely your right. Just get your history correct, otherwise you devalue your argument. At least randy I gets that right.
That Cameron deal is insane. Lackey I can almost understand but 5 years?!?!?! The Redsox have basically started piling up crap deals right when others are set to expire after this year (Lowell who will never pass the physical, Ortiz, their red shirt shortstop brigade, Dice K, etc)
Phil–lol
That Toronto Sun article only says Drabek might be in it……nothing’s definite. I want to erase the name Halladay from my mind – I can’t believe how disappointed I am. Still, I guess the Yankees never really had a shot.
mlbtr has it that bob elliot of the toroto sun say that drabek is in the deal.
if so perhaps the phils are keeping one of the players seattle threw into the pot?
In that case, if there is limited interest, we should get Holliday. However, I still think we REALLY need a pitcher.
According to Davidoff, Benji Molina wants a 3 year deal from the Mets.
So the Red Sox sign Mike Cameron for 2 years and over $15M. Wonder if next offseason they are looking for someone to take the contract off their hands.
Valerie, I think we would still get a pitcher even if we got Holliday. I think we’re just gonna wait for the prices to go down on the risky guys.
i never thought the yankees had any shot at halladay unless they were ready to give up joba + montero and that wasnt worth it, so im actually glad to see roy leave the division. on top of that im glad for the phils (i live in philly) that they are getting him although i question whether lee + drabek were too high a price.
I was so sure we’d get Halladay…I can’t express my dissapointment. He’s arguably the best SP in the game right now, and one of my favorite’s, sooooo…
Stan
December 14th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Hideki Matsui is living proof that baseball is a business. There’s no room for sentimentality in baseball and hasn’t been any going back to the late 1800’s.
No. 55 was a good and very professional Yankee. Even if Cashman signed him, it would have been for just a one year deal and delaying the inevitable. He’ll forever be seen in World Series highlights of the 2009 season.
————————————————————
Oh yeah – come and talk to me next year when cashman signs jeter to a 4 year $80 million contract…baseball is a business – but not for jeter or rivera – whom the yankees will be overpaying next year – while crying poverty over matsui and damon’s extra 3 million dollars, saying holliday will cost to much and handing the reigns over to underwheming players such as joba, hughes, miranda and yes even montero…oh and by the way who’s in the bullpen next year..melancon, dunn? – did anyone see them soil their diapers last year in zero pressure situations…one last thing hughes was sent to the bullpen because HE SUCKED AS A A STARTER – AS DID JOBA – thats why they had a 3 man rotation in the playoffs…
Betsy, one thing todays action should have done is simplify things for Cashman and the Yankees. There is no Halladay, Lackey, Matsui, or Cameron to worry about anymore. The priority should be Holliday now. If you can’t improve in the areas you targeted then at least improve somewhere.
I think the Yankees can sign Holliday and still come in just under last years payroll but they really can’t do much else without trading somebody or raising the payroll. You can fill the DH from within if you sign Holliday and still make an amazing lineup.
Phil–I agree; I just really don’t want to waste money on a lousy, average pitcher who’ll win 12 games, instead of a 17-20 game winner.
I am upset at Matsui leaving, I thought he was the best answer at DH for next year. I guess I will have to trust that Cashman has more info than us, and made the best decision in apparently not even talking to Hideki.
I am suspicious of signing Damonn for any more than 1 year. I am a bit skeptical that he will be better than the player we saw from August through the end of the year even if he is given a 1 year deal. Since he is looking for way more than that, it is time to say good-bye to Damon.
“The San Diego Padres are not going to take bottom of the barrel prospects like Kelly and Westmoreland and Buchholz for Gonzalez.”
————
wow, you sound like a Sox fan saying Joba and Hughes are nothing special.
some fans just can’t let their bias keep them from irrational statements.
i’d bet the farm that sometime in the next week, the yankees sign holliday. i dont know if they were, but all of these deals may make them move faster, right or wrong.
Blake, I wish we could time travel back to last week when everything was peaches and cream. The options out there for the Yankees are not appealing in the least
————————————————
Why are you so negative?
Phil, if you are right that the Angels aren’t interested in Holliday then that means the market for him is probably the Yankees and Cardinals now.
Tim Kurkchin said today on the radio that the Cardinals have said they would not go to 20 million per year for Holliday. Yankees can probably have him for 5 years/100 million or slightly less.
holliday and duscherer? i think he would cost less than sheets, but i would be fine with sheets too.
Blake-
I’d rather see is focus more on the run prevention side of the ball rather than the run production side. Best single way to do that – another quality arm (hint-sheets).
I just don’t see how the Halladay deal got the Phillies any real added value when you look at how well Lee did with them. Granted Halladay is no slouch, but they traded for Lee and had to add to trade for Halladay.
While he is signing an extension so he will be there for longer, the Phillies apparently never put an effort into extending Lee.
Just very odd moves by the Phillies.
The Yankees also lost money today by not keeping Matsui they lost his bat AND 15 MILLION in marketing that he brought in.
6/110 for holliday?
i still think the yanks can win without him though.
cash wont react to the 100 moves boston made tonight.
-With what is left, I would like to see Cash sign Holliday to a 5/90 deal or so. That would be about as high as I would go in terms of years and money.
-We will need solid rotation depth. Duscherer for @6M or Sheets for 10M, with incentives can possibly fill that.
-Boston has what seems to be the only offer on the table for Chapman, at 15.5M. If he is the real deal at his workout tomorrow, they need to sign him, but don’t overpay or outbid themselves to get him-IMO, more than 20M total deal is too much. He is a project, late 2010 or 2011 in the majors is probably best case.
Been thinking about it. I am sad to see Matsui go. I’ve had nothing but respect for the guy, ever since he came over. But I’m not surprised. I expected the Yankees to try for Damon over Matsui, mostly because Matsui’s knee issues are already limiting, and have the potential to be severely so. He’s been something of a streaky hitter, the past couple years, at least. When his bat is cold, he makes a pretty big hole in the lineup. Damon is obviously declining (perhaps scarily quickly), but his numbers were similar to Matsui’s this year, and he’s at least not a roadblock on the bases and can play passable defense — he’s not nearly as awful as some on here make him out to be (and yes, I’ve seen some of his horrendous plays). So, if Damon can be had for a reasonable price, to me, he seemed to be the better bet than Matsui.
I have no idea what Cashman is planning to do. He said, “Pitching, pitching, pitching, LF, DH,” in that order, and he hasn’t really followed that plan — at least not in order. Granderson upgrades the outfield D, and allows them to go after a DH, instead of a LF, if that’s all they want to do. And the rotation is essentially the same as last year. Yanks can be decent with the team they have now (plus a DH). Of course, the object is to improve the team, so I don’t think they’re done, but it’s not surprising they’re not flailing around, trying to land a big FA. If I had to guess, I’d say they’re not closing the door on Wang, and they’ll try hard to get Damon. I just don’t see them taking on another huge contract — not this year, at least.
Anyway, good-bye Matsui. Thanks for being easy to root for.
Valerie, Hallladay was pretty much the only 17-20 game type on the market this year, of course wins are a team function, so we might be able to elevate a 12 game winner into something bigger depending on whether or not we rally while he’s still the pitcher of record. Aceves won 11 or so games this year cause we rallied.
interesting that everybody wants holliday and nobody has mentioined bay.
“Tim Kurkchin said today on the radio that the Cardinals have said they would not go to 20 million per year for Holliday. Yankees can probably have him for 5 years/100 million or slightly less.”
If the Angels sign Bay then I think the Yankees can get Holliday for less than 20M per year because with Pujols coming up next season, I don’t see the Cardinals going beyond 18M per year for Holliday.
The Yanks definitely have to get another pitcher. That should be their priority right now. They can’t have Hughes and Joba in the rotation together. I just really hope that Cash doesn’t go after one of those NL pitchers like Marquis or Piniero. Sheets is interesting but he would probably want to sign with an NL or bad AL team and not start his come back in the big bad AL east.
Mick, maybe I’ll feel better in the morning, but I don’t think I’m being negative, I feel I’m being realistic. I don’t see how anyone can look at our rotation and not have ? about it. We’ve lost Matsui and I don’t want Damon anymore. I hate, no I despise, Cashman’s rotating DH idea. He’s too smart for that…….
Let’s assume the market falls and Cashman signs Holliday to a 5-year, $18M per year deal.
- $29M is off the books for Damon, Matsui, and Molina.
- Add $5M for Granderson.
- Add $9M for Sabathia’s esclation for 2010.
- Add something near $5M for arbitration winners.
There’s still payroll room for Holliday and a pitcher.
Am I missing somebody ?
MTU, I’d like to do both. I’m a huge Sheets fan. Things just seem to be aligning for Holliday to be a Yankee. He said a long time ago that the Yankees were his first choice and he makes perfect sense for what they need.
I rather sign Atkins or Johnson to DH, then giving Holliday 100 million.
The Yankees also lost money today by not keeping Matsui they lost his bat AND 15 MILLION in marketing that he brought in.
ABDA——————————————————–
While I wanted Matsui to stay, Cash must have a plan. He is gambling either way, let the “sure” thing go, even though his knees could go at anytime OR invest the money in someone else. Maybe he surprises us and brings back Damon, but I doubt it. Holliday seems to be the way to go.
Boston Dave – XXVII
December 14th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
I’ll actually be surprised now if the Red Sox don’t make a strong push for Adrian Gonzalez.
Lackey makes Buchholz expendable.
Buchholz, either Casey Kelly or Ryan Westmoreland, Lars Anderson and a lesser prospect is a strong package.
I think that gets it done for SD and I think the Sox recognize their need for a big bat with Bay gone.
===================================
Buchholz – fine.
Kelly – Gammons HOFer – decent prospect.
Westmoreland – need help here ….any input ???
Lars – Lumberjack of minimum worth.
SD: regardless how much they may want to get rid of AG – they need to get better pile than this !!!
basically there is bay and holliday available for LF and the angels, cards, mets and yankees (at least) are looking for LF’ers. so if bay signs with the angels(or anyone else) , the market isnt going to drop for holliday, its going to go up b/c you will still have 3 teams going for one player.
Matt, from what I calculated the Yankees have about 187 million on the books for next year right now. I believe their payroll last year was 206 million. Thats leave 19 million to work with. Holliday will cost at least 18 Million most likely. That leaves 1 Million for a pitcher right? Math isn’t my strongsuit so someone correct me if I’m wrong.
if the Yanks are going to take a flier on a rehabber, my $$$ would be on Kelvim Escobar.
he’s no fun, at all.
Phil–true, I just really don’t want marte to be a regular rotation spot.
feel I’m being realistic. I don’t see how anyone can look at our rotation and not have ? about it.
——————————
BETSY
When is anything a sure thing? Didn’t you have the same doubts last year?
I could live with this lineup in 2010:
1-Jeter
2-Granderson
3-Teixeira
4-Arod
5-Holliday
6-Posada
7-Cano
8-Swisher-RF
9-Miranda/Nady-DH
If Miranda proves he cannot hit ML pitching, I would move Melky into right field and DH Swisher more frequently. Either way, signing Holliday can even be a cost savings, because they can live with an in-house DH solution if they have his bat in the lineup.
18M per year for Holliday is cheaper than the 13M Damon is demanding plus having to go and get another DH to preserve offense at @6-8M.
I am not a big Holliday fan. There are a ton of good free agents available next off season. I would rather wait until then instead of signing Holliday for $15m plus.
The Cards can’t offer Holliday 20M per year because of Pujols being a free agent next year. They can’t have 40% of their payroll tied up in two players. The Mets are too cheap to spend 20M on Holliday just look at what they’re offering Bay.
“I rather sign Atkins or Johnson to DH, then giving Holliday 100 million.”
Then you would rather the 2010 team be worse than the 2009 team. Atkins and Johnson are both downgrades from Matsui. Holliday gives you a guy that can actually play LF for several years. The Yankees would actually not have to play musical outfielders for a few years…wouldn’t that be nice. They could focus on pitching…
Didn’t Kelvim Escobar sign a minor league deal with the Mets today or over the weekend?
“Am I missing somebody ?”
Matt,
Wang comes off-5.5M, Nady was, I think, 6.4M. As above, I do advocate re-signing Nady though, for a platoon DH-sometime OF role. Maybe a 1 year/4M deal for him to prove he can still play?
No, they offered him a minor league deal, but there is no word on him accepting it.
Mark, I love that lineup and as I said with that lineup I could DH and it would be ok. Can they sign Holliday and still get another starter without raising the payroll? I don’t see how they can unless Holliday’s deal is heavily backloaded.
Man, I think its amazing that thew Phils let Lee go after being so lights out this Fall. Halliday is good, but injuries lurk. Just like lackey.
last season we lost our projected #3 starter (or was wang the #2) and somehow we managed to limp through the season, although i dont really remember how it turned out in the end.
if we dont get another starter, we will somehow limp through again next season.
“Atkins and Johnson are both downgrades from Matsui. Holliday gives you a guy that can actually play LF for several years”
oh please. Johnson could hit lefties as well. sure his power numbers went down, he could still hit and get on base.
Damon is getting so screwed by Boras. I can’t believe he is sitting there taking it.
Blake-
unfortunately, I agree on getting both. I just think we can get Sheets and then find a less expensive option for left. I am concerned about the hidden dangers within our current rotation. For example, will AJ and Pettitte both stay healthy. What if Joba has to go back to the bullpen ? Also,
hughes output ? There is somewhat more uncertainty there than I would prefer. I doubt that Gaudin, aceves and most of all mitre can mitigate enough of that risk for me. Except for Wang everything went right for us last year who knows about 2010. Holliday is very, very good ballplayer.
What about long -term roster flexibility with all these locked in contacts. That would concern me too.
“I am not a big Holliday fan. There are a ton of good free agents available next off season. I would rather wait until then instead of signing Holliday for $15m plus.”
Name one thats better than Holliday that plays LF and is guaranteed to be available. Werth and Crawford if they don’t get extensions aren’t going to be cheap either.
For all you people wanting to wait until next year, my question to you is why is 2010 not important?
There will be more moves to be made. With Swisher and Melky in RF if and when they get a LF named Holliday. One of them will be the DH, probably Swisher. Can’t see wasting Melky when he is the far superior RF. The rotating DH will not happen. Gardner will be traded.
Rangers lose by way of shootout.
Damon is getting so screwed by Boras. I can’t believe he is sitting there taking it.
——————–Johnny oughta talk to Arod about Boras, who is highballing the Yanks on Damon to sell them Holliday.
From Bob Elliott of the Toronto Sun:
RHP Kyle Drabek is in the Halladay deal, no Phillippe Aumont
***************************************************
he’s wrong Drabek is out Aumont,the Canadien, is in the deal going to Toronto
With the Redsox blowing 100 million on Lackey and Cameron, and the Angels adding Matsui while having an already full OF, the market for Matt Holliday is basically the Yankees and Cardinals. Yanks will get him Feb 1 when he and Boras realize no one else is bidding. 4/80 backloaded
Cashman has said he wanted to see the team younger and more flexible.
Well ………. he’s part way there.
Cliff Lee and King Felix,on the same team. The AL Central just got interesting.
Anthopoulos is stupid and a liar.He said he needed a deal to wow him.Asked the Yankees to basically restock his roster,with
ready now players.Yet he took prospects.
MTU, you make valid points about the rotation but unfortunately as much as I like Sheets he is a bit of a gamble himself. All of the pitchers remaining are injury risks.
“Aumont is in the Halladay deal — but not coming to the Jays. He’s going to the Phillies”
http://twitter.com/elliottbase.....6682312434
Breaden, you mean the AL West, right?
If Yanks get Holliday on a back loaded deal look for them to send Melky to the Cubs for Ted Lilly (Cubs need salary relief) or a package including Gardner to the Royals for Meche. Cash will get a Vet #4 SP at some point before the season starts.
MTU
A lot went wrong with the Yankees pitching. Joba (#4) was underpar. Marte (8th inning guy) was injured and sucked. Wang (#2) was awful, then injured. That’s a lot for a team to absorb.
The real issue for 10 is whether Pettitte can stay healthy and give 6-7 regularly, whether AJ can stay healthy, and what Joba really projects to, meaning can he give 6-7 most of the time with an under 3 ER. Hughes will be fine as the number 5. We’ll know by July 31. Cash will still have the chips piled up to get what is needed.
Not sure if they really need to go nuts for reclamation projects.
Mick: exactly.
Vito: interesting ideas there. Not sure I want the cost, however.
Vito, if the Yankees sign Holliday then I don’t think they will have room in their “budget” to relieve anyone of salaries. Although those moves would make sense normally.
The Jays clearly never had any intention of trading Halladay within the division unless Montero, Hughes, Arod, Teixera, and Sabathia were involved.
I’m not impressed, Red Sux. Cameron hit .250 and he’ll be a year older. How do they let Bay go?? He must have really wanted out.
Lackey? The name says it all. That ERA will soar in the big East. Doesn’t scare me.
I sense a big move coming. Bucholz in a deal for Adrian Gonzalez.
Aumont is going to the Phils from the Mariners for Lee and then the Phils are sending him to Toronto for Halladay…in other words the Phils are first sending Lee to the M’s for Aumont,Trunfiel and D’arnaud and then trading those guys plus Michael Taylor to Toronto for Halladay and Accardo with Accardo also going to the M’s
The sox have done nothing yet to shift the balance of power. However, a bucholz for Adrian deal could if it goes unanswered by the Yankees. Adrian is a good player.
The real winners of this Halladay/Lee deal is the Mariners. The Jays aren’t getting anyone who can help them now. The Phillies are staying pretty much even. The Mariners have a killer 1-2 punch at the top of the rotation.
Matt H. could go to the Mets, no ? Everyone seems to think NY Yankees or STL, but I don’t see him coming to the Yankees – the Mets are desperate to “do something”…
“Vito, if the Yankees sign Holliday then I don’t think they will have room in their “budget” to relieve anyone of salaries. Although those moves would make sense normally.”
That’s why I said if a Holiday deal was back loaded (say 4y at 13m/17mil/23mil/27mil or something crazy like that). However, “back loaded” and “Boras” don’t fit in the same sentence so yes it is a pipe dream I admit.
I’ve listed and watched for the last hour and said nothing, till now. THANK YOU HAM FIGHTERS:
the market isnt going to drop for holliday, its going to go up b/c you will still have 3 teams going for one player.
Waiting around thinking the market will drop when the supply runs down is assinine. Holliday will be able to dictate his price. Look at the Cameron signing, and I direct this to Phil and Rich in NJ: Did you ever think that Cameron would ever get $15.5 million for 2 years?! That’s almost $8 million per! I would never have thought he would get more than $5 million per.
Damon will certainly therefore value his services nearer to his last contract at $13 million per.
Certainly boston looked beyond stats to make their decision, because on so many fronts Bay seems to be a better fit.
In fact, Phil, could you analyze Bay vs Cameron and tell me which is the better via stats alone? I’m sure its not even close.
You need to go where the puck is heading, not where it has been
====
Unless you’re Mario Lemieux, in which case, the puck follows you
.
actually Michael Taylor could be on the opening day roster for the jays next season
No Holliday,can’t hit in the AL. Just say no to Boras!!
The mets are most likely going to sign Bay because he will be cheaper than Holliday
red sox upgraded there rotation today but downgraded their offense…they went from jason bay to mike cameron…sure the defense will be better but not the offense..
DaSaint. Who are the 3 teams? The Angels have said they aren’t interested (they hate Boras), the Mets seem to be after Bay, the Sox just signed Cameron. That leaves the Cardninals and the Yankees, and Cards have said they won’t go to 20 M per year so I really don’t see that much competition unless some teams are playing possum on him.
Mets have no $ – Wilpons crushed by Madoff
Redsox may try to get Gonzalez but they still haven’t moved Lowell who will not pass his physical. Their payroll is skyrocketing and it won’t get cheaper with Beckett and VMart being a FA next year and Papelbon getting big arbitration raises. Then there is this:
Redsox
# 2010 payroll obligations for former players:
* $9,000,000 (Julio Lugo)
* $1,000,000 (Billy Wagner)
* $ 500,000 (Alex Gonzalez)
Actually Cameron for 2yrs at that price is much better value than Bay because Bay wants 18mil for one year…Cameron is a rh pull/power hitter similar to bay who will see both his avg and homer #’s increase in Fenway just like Bay and he will give MUCH MUCH improved defense to Bay…Bay hit .267 last year with 36hrs…I’ll bet if Cameron stays healthy next year he hits .275 with 28-30hrs so for 7mil is Bay’s extra 5-8hrs and terrible glove worth 11mil more than Cam?
Damnit. Both of the guys I wanted signed to the yankees signed with my two most hated teams today. Not a good day.
with matsui going to the angels, anyone think Vlad would be a good fit for the yankkes as an OF/DH?
I’ll bet if Cameron stays healthy next year he hits .275 with 28-30hrs
_ Yeah ok
Don’t worry about it. I posted a few days ago that Holliday will be our starting left fielder..
Cash isn’t going to pay anything close to Tex money and he knows there are risks waiting it out. These moved today may in fact, give him some more leverage.
Boras like to take the yanks to the bank, they have a good relationship. Cash also understands a players value (probably better then Boras does) Boras is just an enigma at the up-sell.
Cameron for 2 yrs 15.6 and Matsui for 1 yr 6.5 would have been perfect for the Yankees. I can’t believe Cashman didn’t show any interest in either player.
At this point I can only assume one of two things. He really intends to begin the season with Melky in LF and Miranda at DH or he has plans to sign someone like HOlliday.
Unfortunately I hope it’s the latter.
PHIL
I did mean the AL West. Angels will have a competitor for the Division.
The Sox improved their rotation and outfield defense today but I just don’t see how they are going to score runs with their current offense. With that staff they may not have to score many though.
The Yanks will not go to $20mil a yr either as Bay is not a $20mil a yr player…Look at his career rd slg% guys it’s like .450 which is the same as Jeter which actually is a good comparison because Halladay is a slightly stronger rh hitter similar to Jeter when you actually look at the production
Yanks weakened their O today, too, when they lost Matsui.
“Yanks weakened their O today, too, when they lost Matsui.”
Yup as it currently stands you are correct.
Blake, you certainly seem smart enought to realize that teams say anything, and whatever they say is generally posturing, at least until they make a final decision. Right?
Case in point:2009 Free Agency: Cashman says Yanks not interested in Tex.
Team 1: You rightly stated that the Mets ’seem’ to be interested in Bay. But that doesn’t prelclude them from seeing if Holliday, a better defender is better for spacious LF right? Would be rather negligent of them if they didn’t.
Team 2: Just because boston signed Cameron, a natural CF, doesn’t mean they couldn’t be still interested in Holliday does it? Let’s see….Holliday in LF, Cameron in CF, Drew in RF, Bucholz and Ellisbury to Detroit or San Deigo maybe?
Team 3: Cardnials said no – where did they officially say that? – to $20 mil per, but what if they did $18 per. Don’t fool yourself, they’re still in the running.
Team 4: Yankees
Team 5: Angels. See case study above.
Mike Cameron will be 37 in Jan,2010. Happy Yankees didn’t go there!!
Steve look at Bill Muehlers career before coming to Fenway and then look at the .325 he hit in Fenway….or how lowell went from being a .260 career hitter in Fla to .300 hitter with power in Boston….ant rh pull hitter will see a jump in avg hitting at the monster and homers that are warning track outs in other parks…like the Elf pedroia…if he can hit 15-17homers why can’t Cam hit close to 30?
Yanks would be wise to save up for this time in 2010
Cliff Lee will be a FA (perhaps to replace Andy Pettitte?)
Joe Mauer may make it to the open market just in time to replace a used up Posada
Then there is Jeter and Rivera to re-sign
Swisher and Granderson elevator up from 12mil+ to 17mil
Joba gets to arbitration
other notable FA’s – Lilly, Beckett, Webb, Millwood, Harden. Chris Young, Vmart, Pena, Pujols (team option), Crawford, Dunn, Werth, Fuentes, Street, Ortiz (just kidding)
As much as I have posted a lot the last hour about Matt Holliday possibly falling into the Yankees lap I believe the Yanks should pass even on a discount. Keep the dollars free and try to find a veteran IP eater #4 starter for 2010. The offense is fine and Montero is on his way in a year or two. We need arms
Boras is a lot of things,but AN ENIGMA HE’S NOT. Boras is all about the Benjamin’s! Money ….
Matusi got 1 year at $7m and Cameron got 2 years at about $8m per. That makes it hard for Boras to try to ask form $10m plus for 3 – 4 years. The market has been set. If Matsui / Cameron are at the $7.5m market, then Damon is probably worth $9.5m for 2 years. I think today cements the Yankees getting Damon back vs. Matt H. – Damon is cheaper and more flexible (2 vs. 5 years) and Cash likes that. Time will tell.
Matusi got 1 year at $7m and Cameron got 2 years at about $8m per. That makes it hard for Boras to try to ask form $10m plus for 3 – 4 years. The market has been set. If Matsui / Cameron are at the $7.5m market, then Damon is probably worth $9.5m for 2 years. I think today cements the Yankees getting Damon back vs. Matt H. – Damon is cheaper and more flexible (2 vs. 5 years) and Cash likes that. Time will tell.
There is no way Cameron was getting only 5 mill a year. If you wanted him for a 1 year contract you probably had to shell out 9-10 million. The only reason the AAV is less than that is because the Red Sox guarenteed a second year which no one else probably wanted to do.
4 WAR players do not cost 5 million a year regardless of how old they are
DaSaint, because Bay is going to be quite a bit cheaper than Holliday and the Mets just want to give the illusion that they are trying to win. Boston just spent a ton of money on a starting pitcher which they didn’t need and Cameron. Why would they do that if they were planning on going after Bay or Holliday? Tim Kurkchin reported today that the Cards told him they weren’t going to 20 M for Holliday. The Angels I can see getting involved although they loath Boras.
I’m not saying its the Yankees are going to sign Holliday but it certainly looks like things are lining up for it.
Vito- Lilly had shoulder surgery and won’t be ready until sometime in May.
http://sports.espn.go.com/chic.....id=4623273
Can anyone tell me who were involved in the 3 way deal other than Halladay and Lee and was it true that Toronto sent 10M to Philly?
Matt-
Did you figure in the 6.5M in raises, due Jeter, Cano and Swisher?
Yankee Trader,
Thanks I missed that – I will step off my Lilly soap box now and go find my Gil Meche soapbox.
As for the prospects in the deal it seems to still be fluid.
Mlbtraderumors.com is probably the best place to track it:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
Boras is a lot of things,but AN ENIGMA HE’S NOT. Boras is all about the Benjamin’s! Money ….
——————————————————
That’s true, but Carlos Beltran wanted to play in NY for the Yankees and Boras went to Cashman and told him he was yours for some 20M+ less than what the Mets were going to pay him. At that time Cashman had already signed someone else.
Goin to bed, maybe tommorow will be a better day.
Thoughts on Vlad as DH ?
This is the latest from Jason Stark on the players involved.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=4742072
Cameron = wily mo pena
Not sure that Cashman would have played this hand the same way given another opportunity.
Cameron isn’t the best answer for us, but he could have helped solidify the OF defense on a short term basis, if budget was/is an issue. Matsui would have been ideal as DH. No dobut about that. Especially at under $7 million.
I don’t think Damon will hold up as LF. I would have preferred Cameron as LF, and Damon as DH. Holliday as LF is fine, but may break the budget.
Time will tell.
“Cameron = wily mo pena”
You must be talking about something other than baseball.
I’m still scratching my head @ Boston.
Last year the Yanks over-paid for Burnett, but the Yanks were behind the 8 ball and really needed starters.
5 years/17 mil for Lackey is nuts. And it’s not like Boston needed the pitching! I think of a couple of other holes to fill.
And now Cameron? Another head scratcher.
Quick Cash – call Theo. Maybe he’ll take Igawa in his present hazy stupor.
Was Cashman sleeping today?
you know I dont post much but one thing I noticed in this board is this clown Patrick the prospect hugger and his dumb comments. You can not believe Cashman didn’t go after Cameron and Matsui for that much? Are you kidding me?
Dude ur thetype of fan that just wants every stinking player regardless of it makes sense or not, its like when I read your posts which are going to the “ignore” list from now on, I can just picture this 14 year old kid typing. I understand those your opinions but goodness.
Cashman has already improved this outfield tremendously by getting granderson to play CF and moving Melky to RF. THe defense in the outfield is much improved. Where would Cameron fit in espacially if Damon signs? Where would Matsui fit in strictly a DH that is not able to play the field? Goodness, the Yankees can not get every stinking player and Mike Cameron is a freaking DISASTER!!!!! you really want him and Swisher in the same lineup, same outfield?????
Once Damon signs, you will have him at the DH spot most of the time and able to play the field on occassion, it is called flexibility!!!!
Mike Cameron, really?????????
correction Melky to LF
Melky doesn’t hit well enough to play a corner OF spot for the Yanks on a regular basis.
DaSaint , solidify outfield defense????? where was he going to play in LF? ok Where do you play Melky? Or was he going to play in favor of Swisher? In that case where do you send Swisher, who was a very important piece for us this past year?
an outfield of Melky in LF, Granderson in CF, Swisher in RF is as good as the Yankees can do barring any major trade or signing of Matt Holliday (who i am not in favor of)..gooodness people stop the complainin, Cashman has done incredible so far, you guys are complaining about Mike Cameron really????? Mike Cameron?????
“Was Cashman sleeping today?”
I hope so. He’s had a great offseason to date. He really could use some rest.
Melky doesn’t hit well enough to play a corner OF spot for the Yanks on a regular basis.
——
WHY!?!??!?!?!
I don’t get this at all. We can afford to have a lighter hitting corner outfielder because our catcher, SS, 2b and now OF are all way above average offensively for their positions.
This legitimately a dumb thing to say.
Sure traditionally corner outfielders are power positions but traditionally your middle infielders don’t both get 200+ hits in a season.
Get a clue man. We won a couple world series with Chad Curtis and Shane Spencer manning a corner outfield spot.
Phil,
Melky is a .270 – .280 hitter, decent contact hitter with some speed on the bases and a great arm espacially for LF. This lineup does not need him to hit 20+ homeruns and hit .300. You guys are nuts to think he is a bad hitter, just exactly what is the NORM for a LF. Does every LF in the majors hit .300 with over 20 homeruns? the answer is NO.
You gotta understand how more balanced their defense is with him in LF, which in my opinion makes up for the power numbers, cuzz after all it isnt like he is our number 3 hitter, he is our 9th hitter for crying out loud.
“5 years/17 mil for Lackey is nuts. And it’s not like Boston needed the pitching! I think of a couple of other holes to fill.
And now Cameron? Another head scratcher. ”
————–
I’m surprised with Cameron as well but I think Lackey improves their team and allows them to trade Buchholz in a deal for a bat.
I’ll take the Yanks any day but the Sox are one bat away from being better than they were last season.
I’m not sure Lackey will still be worth it in 3 years but you could have said the same for AJ.
It’s a risk teams like Boston and NY can take.
“Thoughts on Vlad as DH ?”
Vlad looked very old last year. He cannot play the field anymore either. It would be very frustrating to see Vlad and Cano back to back in the lineup as well.
Also, the Angels could have re-signed him but chose Matsui instead, who the Yankees didn’t even make an offer to, ostensibly because of his knees. I think that tells you everything you need to know about where Vlad is right now.
In case you haven’t guessed it by now, my answer would be no.
* I mean the Sox are one bat away from being better than the Sox were last season.
not better than the yanks, of course.
“I don’t get this at all. We can afford to have a lighter hitting corner outfielder because our catcher, SS, 2b and now OF are all way above average offensively for their positions.
This legitimately a dumb thing to say.”
You think that not wanting to give away outs is dumb?
Jeez.
“Thoughts on Vlad as DH ?”
————-
no thank you
Hey if they gave Gardner a chance to actually play (like they gave Melky) then we wouldnt have this problem. Stick him and his speed in CF and put Granderson (who isnt a true CF) into LF. Problem solved.
Vlad as the DH? over Damon? no way. Vlad,s bat has slowed down tremendously. He can not catch up with the heater whatsoever and neither could the Angels team for that matter. Power Pitching gave them fits the whole season.
If the Yanks wanted Vlad to DH, they would have just kept Matsui.
Joe from LI
1. If Cash wanted Clemens back he would have offered him arbitration. He didn’t. Cash thought he was done. He was very, very wrong.
2. Cash lowballed Andy and Houston swooped in. He thought Andy was ready to fall apart. Wrong again. (The elbow was a batting-related injury, by the way.)
3. Wells had two more solid years after ‘03. You wouldn’t have rathered him on the mound in Game 7 instead of K. Brown? If so, you’re the only Yankee fan I know who feels that way.
Carry Cash’s water if you will, but his pulling the string prematurely on proven winners, and fixing something that wasn’t broken, cost us in a major way in ‘04. Let’s hope he doesn’t bring in a No. 5 hitting Javier Vasquez equivalent.
randyhater
1. Clemens told Cash he was retiring.
2. George didn’t want Andy back.
3. Wells’s back problem (and Torre’s mismanaging) cost them the WS.
oh wow , a plea to start Bret Gardner in CF. Granderson isnt a true CF? say what?
First off, let me ask you this, is Gardner better in the field then Melky, NO. Better with bat, NO. whats with the Bret Gardner love? The kid is a decent scrappy player, but he isnt better then Melky and Cashman didnt get Granderson to make him change positions, Grranderson is top 5 CF in the Majors and you want him to change positions?
Get real
“I think Lackey improves their team and allows them to trade Buchholz in a deal for a bat.”
Not so sure about that. If they trade Bucholz, old man Wakefield must be in the rotation. He has little to no chance of making it through the season, and they can’t be overly confident in Matsuzaka’s durability at this point, either.
You think that not wanting to give away outs is dumb?
Jeez.
——
Are you kidding me! He is our #9 hitter and he is pretty damn good.
Look at what the rest of the league has batting #9 or # 8 for that matter. Other teams would KILL to have a Melky batting 8th or 9th. It’s ok to not have every position in the line up hitting 20 HRs and batting .300+
Giving away outs…please. I think a rationale that thinks not having a superstar at every position is giving away outs is dumb as well.
I’m gonna miss Matsui.
He was one helluva Yankee and will always be one of my favorites.
I’m glad he got a ring here.
Hidecki is and always has been a class act. I wish only the best for him. No hype, no bombastic agent with specious claims ringing hollow to even the most naive, but simply “it is what it is”, to quote a contemporary phrase. He will do well for the Angels, and will more than earn his keep. Unfortunately, the Yankees, by default, if not choice, will opt for Damon, who as a “man” cannot walk in H’s shoes.
Johnny Damon hosting WWE RAW next Monday night!!!!! haha gotta love it
All this money the $ox are throwing around is just the begining. Next up, Victor Martinez,Papelbum and Beckett. The $ox are about to find out the cost of keeping their core together.
“Was Cashman sleeping today?”
I hope so. He’s had a great offseason to date. He really could use some rest
————————————————————
Based on what, Rich? Subtracting Matsui, some useful young talent, and (presumably) Damon and adding Granderson?
As of today we’re an unquestionably inferior team to the one that ended the season. I’m sure there are more deals to come, but he hasn’t earned any rest yet.
Starks, Gardner was one of the top rated defensive center fielders last year. Melky was a minus in the defensive category…
“I’m surprised with Cameron as well but I think Lackey improves their team and allows them to trade Buchholz in a deal for a bat.
I’m not sure Lackey will still be worth it in 3 years but you could have said the same for AJ.”
I agree BD. Lackey and AJ are similar deals. Similar risks.
The Yanks needed to take the risk – Boston didn’t – UNLESS
there is more than meets the eye.
Maybe Buch will be dealt. Maybe another starter’s health is a worry. Status quo – Lackey is a luxury they didn’t need.
It would be like the Yanks springing for another closer.
Would it make them better – yes.
Would it provide depth if Mo got hurt – yes.
Would it be a smart use of money – no.
Not so sure about that. If they trade Bucholz, old man Wakefield must be in the rotation. He has little to no chance of making it through the season, and they can’t be overly confident in Matsuzaka’s durability at this point, either.”
————
very true and good point – but I still see Boston adding another 5th starter type, especially if Buchholz is dealt.
I disagree… but clearly the Sox think Tazawa is capable of starting games at the back of the rotation as well.
I think adding Lackey makes a Buchholz trade a realistic possibility, where before it was a longshot.
Melky’s is a few ticks below average as a hitter. We could play that in CF, but not in one of the corners. We’d be seeding a hitter position to a guy who doesn’t hit well enough to play it.
“Johnny Damon hosting WWE RAW next Monday night!!!!! haha gotta love it”
I hope he doesn’t try to throw anybody out of the ring, he can’t even throw a baseball that far!
“I agree BD. Lackey and AJ are similar deals. Similar risks.
The Yanks needed to take the risk – Boston didn’t – UNLESS
there is more than meets the eye. ”
————-
I’m very curious about it as well.
But I think the Sox are desperate to improve and they weren’t getting far by trying to improve their offense.
Along with the Cameron signing, to me, sends a signal that they are headed towards a team of pitching and defense.
On that note, I expect an Adrian Beltre signing in the near future.
randyhater
“Based on what, Rich? Subtracting Matsui, some useful young talent, and (presumably) Damon and adding Granderson?
As of today we’re an unquestionably inferior team to the one that ended the season. I’m sure there are more deals to come, but he hasn’t earned any rest yet.”
Yes, the trade for Granderson, re-signing Pettitte, and not overpaying for Halladay.
If I have one criticism, it is that if Sherman is right, and they told Matsui to wait because their focus was on starting pitching and Damon, that is a mistake, because I would MUCH rather have Matsui back than Damon. I don’t want Damon back.
Melky’s is a few ticks below average as a hitter. We could play that in CF, but not in one of the corners. We’d be seeding a hitter position to a guy who doesn’t hit well enough to play it.
—-
What the heck is the difference of the average hitter is in left but the awesome hitter is at SS or CF?
When you have maybe the best hitting SS in baseball, an above average 2B bat, WAY above average at catcher and a top 5 in the entire league at traditional power positions like 1B and 3B you can afford for one of your corner OF to be average and still be on top.
I really don’t get your rationale. Should we not play Derek at SS or Posada at C because they hit too well for their position?
You need to take as step back and think about this Phil…
I don’t really understand this trade for the Phillies. Their problem last season, most especially in the playoffs, was that Lee was fantastic, and the rest of their rotation was spotty. Lee AND Halladay, would have given them a dominant one-two punch, and taken a lot of pressure off of the middle and back-end of the rotation. Now? It’s Halladay, and potentially minus Happ and Blanton. Honestly, who’s going to pitch for them after Halladay and a potentially-still-awful-with-a-terrible-attitude Hamels? This trade makes absolutely no sense to me.
As for what we do about a LF/DH, and #4 starter…It’s anyone’s guess.
I can’t see them getting Holliday at this point. Damon would make a lot more sense (and be cheaper), being a regular DH with Melky in left, than it would be to have Holliday in left, Melky in right, and Swisher DHing (which is the only alignment I can figure on, with what we have to work with). Either way, I think Melky plays a part, regardless.
At 4th starter, I’m really not sure what they’re going to do. I thought for sure that if they couldn’t swing a Halladay trade, they’d end up with Lackey. Clearly not happening now. I have to think that Sheets is the man at this point, because there isn’t another starter on that list that I’d want to give the ball to in the AL East at ANY time, and I don’t even know how much I like Sheets. It really makes you realize just how devastating Wang’s injury was.
Then again, Sidney Ponson IS available again.
That was a joke.
Melky’s is a few ticks below average as a hitter. We could play that in CF, but not in one of the corners. We’d be seeding a hitter position to a guy who doesn’t hit well enough to play it.
—-
I just read that comment again. So it would perfectly fine if with the exact same 3 outfielder, Grande, Swish and Melky to go out there if Melky was the CF and Granderson played left but not the other way around?
You are confounding position on the field and offense way too much and you just dound plain ridiculous.
Cameron on a two year deal feels like a stretch. I’m really not sure how the Sox are going to line up their outfield.
LF at Fenway is really small and it mitigates a plus defenders ability to create potential value.
Adrian Beltre – they can have him.
Defense is important – but I almost think it may be becoming over rated right now on the market.
“As of today we’re an unquestionably inferior team to the one that ended the season. I’m sure there are more deals to come, but he hasn’t earned any rest yet.””
———
possibly, but don’t discount the extra year of experience for Hughes and Joba, a full healthy season from Marte, a full season of Robertson, and the potential of Granderson to be an all-star CF.
so sure they are weaker than the team that ended the season, but they might not be weaker than the team that started the 09 season.
Seeing Matsui wearing that red cap and Angels uniform will make me sick.
If the Yankees start the year out with the revolving door DH, I bet they find it looks like garbage and end up signing a poor replacement for Matsui.
Hard to say what Cashman is going to do. The pitching market is thinning out so its either a signing of reclamation project or a trade.
LF is a question mark. From his comments he wasn’t sounding as if he had Melky going there, otherwise why would he say LF and DH and Pitching to be worked on?
I just find this past weekend a very unpleasant one for Yankee fans. Wang, Matsui, Halladay (even though it was a very long shot), Lee (who even knew he would be traded?).
Damon is in limbo, but I’m not understanding why he was viewed so much higher than Matsui was. His fielding isn’t great, his arm is poor, so even with his “flexibility” in being able to play the field is he worth it? Plus his demands seem high.
Nick D.
Why do you want to give away the advantage that Jeter and Posada give you? That’s what you are recommending. You’re saying that because they are so good the Yankees can afford to give away outs in LF. Why would any smart team do that? You maximize your edge by having an above average player at every position. Especially when you have a $200m payroll.
Rich,
1. Cash made no attempt to bring Clemens back after ‘03 and only barely brought him back after ‘02. If you think Cash “forgot” to offer Clemens arbitration then you have even less respect for his competence than I do.
2. So Steinbrenner takes the heat for the bad moves and Cash gets credit for the good ones? Sorry, I don’t buy it. I listened to Cash on the radio the day Andy announced he was going to Houston and it was clear to me he was front and center on lowballing him.
3. The Well’s back thing in the ‘03 Series is still a mystery I haven’t seen adequately answered. Let’s be fair, though. The guy was always a gamer and he did have back surgery that offseason. Again, you prefered K. Brown over Boomer in Game 7?
Boston lineup w/Beltre:
Ellsbury
Pedroia
Youkilis
Vmart
Ortiz
Beltre
Drew
Cameron
Scutaro
Not too bad, but I think they were much better last year with Bay and Lowell. Bay gets put down a lot, and I don’t think he ia fit for the Yankees, but he did score 103 with 36HRs and 119 RBIs. Regardless of his metrics and so forth, those power numbers are difficult to replace. And certainly not by Mike Cameron.
Giving away outs:
boston:
1B: Youk/VMart – ok
2B: Pedroia – ok
SS: Scutaro – we’ll see
3B: Youk – ok
LF: Cameron – maybe
CF: Ellisbury – definately
RD: Drew – maybe
C: Varitek – definately
DH: Ortiz – sometimes
Seems to me that boston therefore ‘gives away’ 6 out of 9 outs.
I don’t even have to compare to the Yanks. Only Melky is an average hitter, out of 9 batters. Case closed. We can live with him at LF.
DaSaint,
you cant put VMart at 1b. He is their primary C.
IMO, the Sox will be adding Beltre as well
I’ll take the Yanks lineup in a heartbeat but be fair to the Sox lineup.
I am sad to see Matsui go but I am confident Cashman will bring in a quality bat. People need to lay off the guy for once. I shouldnt count on that though.
You can never have enough starting pitching. Sox have Beckett, Lester, Lackey (who the Mets should have signed), Buckholtz, DiceK and Wakefield. Not too shabby.
Cashman will sign another starter.
Good luck to Matsui.
And why would Cashman sign Vlad? He can only DH, the reason Cash did not sign Matsui.
Nick D.
I think you need to take a step back and think about it. Of the two of us I appear to be the only one who has thought about it. The Yanks are gonna try to defend a championship, not play a fricking high school schedule where everybody gets to play. There was no point in upgrading the O in Center if we were just going to move the problem to left. Do you understand that? If Melky was worth starting they would have left Granderson in Detroit and just went after a LF. What the Yanks need to try to be is abover average offensively at every position. It wears out the other team’s pitchers. There’s no excuse for us to play Melky in LF when we have options to put a better hitter there.
“Cashman will sign another starter.”
————–
yup – you can take that to the bank (I hope!
)
Thoughts on Vlad as DH ?
——————
The Yanks are obviously not signing a DH. If they were going to have a full time DH then Cash would of matched Matsui’s offer and brought him back. They will sign Damon if he doesn’t ask for something crazy or someone else.
randyhater
1. I distinctly recall that Cash said that Clemens told them that he would retire. Was Cash naive for believing him? Maybe.
2. Cash never had the power to set the payroll, and he had less power then than he does now. Pettitte asked the Yankees to match the RS’ offer of 4 for $52m. Instead he gave Houston a discount. Why is that not on him? The Yankees drafted him, developed him, surrounded him with the talent to win four rings. Isn’t that worth some consideration in return? What did Houston do for him?
3. No, Brown is a b, but I understand why they let Wells go.
While Fenway has a small LF, they do play half their games in other parks, so that might be what they are thinking having Cameron play there.
Maybe once the roster is set things will settle down, but some of the players who are no longer Yankees are really tough to see go.
It feels like a gut punch.
The “blockbuster” deal was won by the Mariners, IMO. Phillies got a great player, but I don’t see him winning any more games than Lee did. I guess it was the extension, but still, they didn’t even try to do much to extend Lee. Jays aren’t going to compete in the East with what they got in the 2010 season.
Angels took a huge hit today as well. Even though they got a great deal on Matsui, who they are already saying will more than pay for himself. (Gee, where did we hear that from?)
Matsui gave the Yanks 7 good years.
He came in as the “Iron Man” – never taking a day off.
He leaves as the “Tin Man” – with those squeaky rusty knees.
But man he could rake. A professional hitter.
CB,
I agree.
I do like Beltre but he’s no real upgrade over pre-2009 Mike Lowell.
Can you see the Sox making another major move, perhaps via trade, this offseason?
Nick D.
Why do you want to give away the advantage that Jeter and Posada give you? That’s what you are recommending. You’re saying that because they are so good the Yankees can afford to give away outs in LF. Why would any smart team do that? You maximize your edge by having an above average player at every position. Especially when you have a $200m payroll.
—-
Yes Rich, that is exactly what i’m saying. Only they aren’t giving away any advantage because they are so freaking much better at every position then mostly everyone else that the trade off is nominal. Sticking Melky in left does not neutralize out infield. You could stick the rotting corpse of Generalisimo Francisco Franco out in left field and it still wouldn’t neutralize the ridiculous infield the Yankees have amassed.
You make is sound like Melky is garbage. He’s not. It’s not giving away outs just because he’s not Matt Holliday (I’m sure A’s fans will tell you all about how great HE was against AL pitching). He’s better then a lot of people a lot of other teams are sticking out there and hes in the FREAKING 9 hole and it prevents the yanks from having to waste another mega contract on another star who will be giving away outs in a few years but we’re stuck with them.
Once again, 1998 was just fine with Chad Curtis, 2010 can be just fine with Melky Cabrera
I don’t understand what the big deal here is with Melky. Who cares what position he plays? He isn’t bad. We have one semi average hitter in the lineup that still may have Damon in it!
“Cash isn’t going to pay anything close to Tex money and he knows there are risks waiting it out. These moved today may in fact, give him some more leverage.”
Agreed. This is the play with Holliday. The bet here is that as time goes on no market at the Tex level will develop. And if it doesn’t Holliday’s price may start making sense.
And that’s the direction the market dynamics are moving in.
Boston went immediately from Bay to Lackey/Cameron – completely by passing Holliday.
And Holliday is the perfect player for them.
You have to think they really didn’t want to deal with Scott or at least they felt that they couldn’t wait around a second winter in a row waiting for the Borass circus to resolve. That killed them last year because the opportunity cost of waiting on Tex really hurt them.
So this year they’ve moved quickly – but now they are out.
The mets are going after Bay because he’ll be cheaper. The dodgers are a mess. St. Louis isn’t going to make a huge play. The phillies aren’t looking for LF. The angels have already said they aren’t going to be in on Holliday
(interesting to see how the teams in on Tex last year aren’t making a play for Holliday this year…)
In the end there’s one big game hunter around and Scott knows that…
Corey,
I can understand that Melky loses value if he’s not playing CF.
Ideally. the Yanks should have another OF who can at least platoon in LF.
But Melky did impress me this season and deserves a little more respect than he’s getting from some.
Nick D.
I think you need to take a step back and think about it. Of the two of us I appear to be the only one who has thought about it. The Yanks are gonna try to defend a championship, not play a fricking high school schedule where everybody gets to play. There was no point in upgrading the O in Center if we were just going to move the problem to left. Do you understand that? If Melky was worth starting they would have left Granderson in Detroit and just went after a LF. What the Yanks need to try to be is abover average offensively at every position. It wears out the other team’s pitchers. There’s no excuse for us to play Melky in LF when we have options to put a better hitter there.
—-
This is why everyone hates Yankee fans. Because of this feeling that we need above average everywhere. Role player my friend. There is always a place for them on championship teams.
You’re rationale is flawed even more. Maybe we made the move to get Granderson with the intention of playing Melky in left, not simply moving the problem. If that wasn’t at least in consideration we would have signed Damon or Holliday or Cameron or anyone else.
Dave I agree with that. People shouldn’t expect the Yankees to just sit on their hands though lol. The Yankees do not sit idle.
I feel a weight off of my shoulders with Halladay out of the East. He shut us, and well everyone for that matter, every single time. What a fantastic pitcher he is.
There aren’t any good starting pitching options left. I really, really hope that Cash doesn’t sign one of the NL guys like Marquis or Piniero. It scares me that he will go down that route again. Like Wright and Hawkins. If Sheets signs for something reasonable I would sign him in a second.
I would even be ok with Bedard.
bedard has a rep of having no heart.
Nick D.
“Yes Rich, that is exactly what i’m saying. Only they aren’t giving away any advantage because they are so freaking much better at every position then mostly everyone else that the trade off is nominal. Sticking Melky in left does not neutralize out infield. ”
It may not “neutralize” it, but it would reduce it.
I would prefer to increase it.
Melky isn’t garbage. He’s just not a ML starter on an elite team.
As for the Curtis comparison, why do we want to emulate one of the few weaknesses on the 1998 team. There is much more parity now than there was then as a result of the subsequent CBAs. Consequently, we don’t have that luxury to coast. We need to exploit every advantage just to be in the same position that the Yankees were back then.
I was totally against Holliday at first. I thought our defense would have gone to hell with him in left, Swisher in right, and Melky (the only good defender) in CF. But now that we have Granderson, I trust his defense, and range, to make those plays that Swisher and Holliday can’t get to.
If the price is right, he is the right move, and will give us a devastating lineup, yet again. We also do get younger.
I hope you all are right about the market coming down. Because in my mind, if the market comes down, it increases the number of teams that can afford that dollar amount, not decreases it.
If the market is now $20 mil per for Holliday, and it comes down to $17 mil, then Card money and Met money is just as good as Yankee money.
I don’t get the logic…
Yeah he prefers hockey. I think he has talent though.
Nick D.
People hate NY no matter what. They hate the Yankees no matter what. Do you really think that Melky’s presence or absence would change that?
“Can you see the Sox making another major move, perhaps via trade, this offseason?”
I think they’ll make a play for a 3b. A major trade – it’s possible but I don’t see it. I don’t think they have a legitimate shot for Gonzalez this year (they could next year if Buchholz, Kelly and Westmoreland all have strong years…).
I could see them trying to try again to trade for a catcher if something happens with a team like Arizona. Perhaps a deal in the pen.
But if they sign Lackey and Cameron I think they’re mostly done.
And further, if this theory thats being espoused is worth anything, that Cashman doesn’t want to pay more than $20 mil/year, if it comes down to comparable dollars from multiple teams, then quality of life/location may play a role that it wouldn’t have otherwise.
Basically, I’m saying that $17 mil in St. Louis goes farther, and probably less stressfully than $17 mil in NYC. And if Cashman then has to compete by paying more, then it defeats your theories.
Phil and Rich
Take a look at who the world series champs had batting 9th for them the past couple of years and tell me Melky Cabrera is markedly inferior if not SUPERIOR of any of them. And then consider that the Yanks basically have the advantage at most other positions on the diamond.
It is absurd to say this line up isn’t one of, if not the best in baseball
Jeter
Granderson
Tex
Arod
Posada
Cano
Siwsher
Whoever is our DH
Cabrera
And that is assuming no other moves major moves besides some DH type.
Yes Nick D. and that place for role players is called “the bench” or the bullpen. It is within our rights to have an above average player all over. When the Yanks had Combs and Ruth in CF and RF they still had Bob Muesel who was well above average in Left. With DiMaggio and Henrich we had Keller who was one of the best hitters ever in Left. Casey platooned guys like Woodling, Bauer and Elston and they were all above average. Tresh was above average. Roy White was abover average. Even Chad Curtis was above average two out of three years. In Left you need a hitter, not a Melky.
‘My heart beats when they win, and it stops beating when they lose.’
December 14th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
I was totally against Holliday at first. I thought our defense would have gone to hell with him in left, Swisher in right, and Melky (the only good defender) in CF. But now that we have Granderson, I trust his defense, and range, to make those plays that Swisher and Holliday can’t get to.
If the price is right, he is the right move, and will give us a devastating lineup, yet again. We also do get younger.
————————–
The problem with your logic is that BOTH Holliday AND Swisher are good defensive OF.
Lackey was not worth the $ & yr’s. Yes, he has similar stats to AJ, but AJ’s has filthier stuff and way more potential to be a dominant pitcher.
Why even go after Damon. I guarantee he will have problems with his calves &/or shoulders this coming season & play in only 80 to 100 games.
Go get Matt Holiday, a player in his prime who will put up: 30 HRs/100 RBI’s/.320 Avg.
Move Melky to RF where his strong arm will gun down base runners going 1st to 3rd & DH Swisher.
An outfield of: Holliday/Granderson/Melky is better than last yr’s: Damon/Melky/Swish
Better defense & stronger arms.
This would give you a switch hitter at DH. Plus, the flexibility of playing Swish at 1B, or OF & rotating the DH slot from time to time.
Bottom line: forget Damon, get younger, stronger, & better with Holliday.
boston probably signs Beltre to play third if they can’t get Gonzalez to play 1B. Or they could go low-budget and sign a Melvin Mora type. At this point, they don’t have to do anything. They could let Youk play 3B, VMart 1B, and Varitek and Max Ramirez platoon at C, with VMart in there occassionally.
Nick D.
People hate NY no matter what. They hate the Yankees no matter what. Do you really think that Melky’s presence or absence would change that?
—–
I really just don’t think burdening the Yankees down with contracts for these “above average” LF bats you are looking for out there is doing the Yankees any better then running Melky out there every day.
As much I didn’t want the Yankees to dabble in the Holliday market, that was when I thought it was a foregone conclusion that we’d resign Damon and Matsui to short team friendly deals.
At this point if we’re not getting short team friendly deals, I think we might as well pay for the best player we can get here.
Holliday scares me because of the Oakland stint and the whole Coors field thing, but he did rake in St. Louis and he would be a great guy to bat 5th in this lineup.
He’s more mobile than Bay and I think the guy has some leadership qualities, something that this team is going to need as some players get older and depart.
If we get him because the market for him is shrinking, it’s an incredible off season for Cashman. To add Matt Holliday and Curtis Granderson to our OF would be beyond belief. We’re halfway there. All it takes is money to make the OF over completely with younger impact players.
I don’t believe in waiting for Carl Crawford since I don’t think he is that much better than Holliday at his best.
At this point, I’d rather have Holliday than Damon.
I’d also like the Yankees to check in on what it would take dollar wise to make Vlad our DH.
I said earlier that I wouldn’t be shocked to see Holliday, Sheets and Vlad on this roster before the dust settles.
That would mean Melky or Gardner were traded but so be it.
We also wouldn’t sacrifice any prospects in that scenario.
Boston’s two moves today are somewhat baffling to me. Cameron does not strike me as a player the Boston faithful will embrace. The drop off from him to Bay is pretty big in my opinion.
If they add Beltre to that lineup it gets even stranger since those are 2 spots that have been held by the likes of Lowell, Manny and Bay over the years.
It’s a big step down for that lineup.
As for Lackey, by year 3 of the deal Theo will be trying to get out from it. Mark it down.
Nick D.
“Take a look at who the world series champs had batting 9th for them the past couple of years and tell me Melky Cabrera is markedly inferior if not SUPERIOR of any of them.”
Why is that something to strive for when it’s within the realm of the possible to improve?
Yes Nick D. and that place for role players is called “the bench” or the bullpen. It is within our rights to have an above average player all over. When the Yanks had Combs and Ruth in CF and RF they still had Bob Muesel who was well above average in Left. With DiMaggio and Henrich we had Keller who was one of the best hitters ever in Left. Casey platooned guys like Woodling, Bauer and Elston and they were all above average. Tresh was above average. Roy White was abover average. Even Chad Curtis was above average two out of three years. In Left you need a hitter, not a Melky.
—-
You can’t make that comparison though because I’ll tell you what any of those positions didn’t have…two middle infielders having 200+ hits…because it has never happened before this last year.
It doesn’t matter what position the hitters are playing, just so long as you have hitters and the Yankees have hitters. No doubt.
“If the market is now $20 mil per for Holliday, and it comes down to $17 mil, then Card money and Met money is just as good as Yankee money.”
The market really doesn’t expand that drastically – a team like the Cardinals isn’t going to be able to go past 4 years.
Holliday won’t sign for quite some time – that’s Borass’s method. He definitely won’t sign before Bay does.
So whatever team signs Bay (the mets?) – that team will be out on Holliday.
And equally as importnat – the Sox are out. And not only are the Sox out on Holliday – they are out on Bay. It has been long assumed the Sox would sign one of those two players. But in the end it looks like they won’t sign either – that decreases demand not only for Holliday but also for the entire OF market.
And it seems that Holliday wants to play for the Yankees – this seems like his strong preference the money being the same (as it was for Tex)
There’s no guarantee that this will happen or work. If the Giants step in and do something stupid then so be it (this is the tap dance Borass is doing right now – seeing if he can drum up a sucker.)
But the probability of Holliday being a viable option for the yankees is increasing given the events of today.
DaSaint007
December 14th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
I hope you all are right about the market coming down. Because in my mind, if the market comes down, it increases the number of teams that can afford that dollar amount, not decreases it.
If the market is now $20 mil per for Holliday, and it comes down to $17 mil, then Card money and Met money is just as good as Yankee money.
I don’t get the logic…
————————-
Well, the Red Sox can not afford Holliday now whether it is 17 or 20 million. The Angels do not want to deal with Boras. The Mets seem to be trying to wrap up Bay ASAP and probably will not wait around for the Holliday thing to get resolved.
So it comes down to the Cards and Yanks and the Cards prob will not go past 18 million.
I am also going to throw Seattle out there, but am not sure if they can afford him at this point.
Why is that something to strive for when it’s within the realm of the possible to improve?
—-
What is that realm of possibility? Texiera money for Holliday? Jason Bay? Damon for 4 years?
I’m not saying these things might not change but as of right now that is what all these guys are asking for and I would rather have Melky than any of that rubbish of overpaying for too many years.
Ha, disregard my answer as CB just said the same thing + more above me
Rich,
1. Cash wasn’t naive about Clemens. He thought he was done and he didn’t want him back at an arbitration-fueled raise. I’m the first to mock his talent evaluations (it’s not hard to do) but the guy doesn’t sleep on procedural issues. To reason that he cost us two draft picks because he couldn’t possibly imagine Clemens changing his mind about retiring is to accuse the guy of bumbling incompetence. Even I don’t do that.
2. I agree that Andy’s hands weren’t clean on that divorce. But Cash opened the door to it by draggin feet on the negotiations and lowballing him until the last minute. The payroll argument doesn’t really hold water because they scooped up K. Brown’s bloated salary the very next day.
What Phil and some others have latched on to is their God given right to have the best players at every position because they are the Yankees. Because we do have $200 million to spend.
Let me ask this question: Does having Melky as our LF put the Yankees at a tactical disadvantage vis-a-vis the rest of the division, and cause us to miss making the WS in 2010?
CB,
What about Seattle?
CB,
I just want to caution you on one thing. The Sox may not really be out.
They could have signed Cameron to play CF and then intend to trade Ellsbury, Bucholtz, etc. for Gonzales.
It might be a long shot, but I wouldn’t be surprised at anything with the Red Sox at this point. They went from the bridge year stance to something very different overnight.
What Phil and some others have latched on to is their God given right to have the best players at every position because they are the Yankees. Because we do have $200 million to spend.
Let me ask this question: Does having Melky as our LF put the Yankees at a tactical disadvantage vis-a-vis the rest of the division, and cause us to miss making the WS in 2010?
—–
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
What Phil and some others have latched on to is their God given right to have the best players at every position because they are the Yankees. Because we do have $200 million to spend.
Let me ask this question: Does having Melky as our LF put the Yankees at a tactical disadvantage vis-a-vis the rest of the division, and cause us to miss making the WS in 2010?
—–
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
You have to love this about Lackey…
“The Angels pursued Lackey aggressively this winter, but they were hesitant to offer a five-year deal because of the elbow injuries that sidelined Lackey for the first six weeks of the 2008 and 2009 seasons.”
Any chance our DH by mid-season is already a Yankee? Namely one Jesus Montero????
Something Yankee fans would love about Holliday
Last 3 years 2 outs + RISP
.291 .415 .457 .872
I’m sure the chances of Montero being in the majors by mid-season, nonetheless filling in on the DH spot, is pretty much none.
Given all the things we have heard this off season, I wouldn’t put any weight into Holliday or anyone else wanting to go to the Yankees. They just want to go to the bank.
Remember, Halladay wasn’t going to sign an extension, he wanted to test FA. Damon wants to stay in NY, but…. Bay wants to stay in Boston, but….
Holliday is a player I’ve liked. Watching him play with the Rockies really impressed me. If the Yankees can somehow sign him I won’t complain. I just don’t see it fitting the budget or plan. Who knows other than Cashman though? Steinbrenner? Not any of us.
I just don’t even know what to think anymore. It was a terrible day for Cash, I’m sorry. I really want to know just what pitching he was supposedly interested in. How hard did he even try for Halladay? Not very, it seems. He showed almost no interest in Lackey, either. I wonder exactly where does he think the SP is coming from? Knowing Cash, Sheets and Deutscherer will be too rich for his blood (but then, that could be all on Hal and his budget).
I’m pretty sure Matsui would have gone anywhere in order to play LF – does he really think the Angels are going to be better than the Yankees? In that case, there’s nothing Cash could have done. That said, he did a terrible job by not even making contingency plans. Now he’s at the mercy of Scott Boras, who represents both Damon and Holliday. Good job……..
So, despite Granderson, we are a worse team than we were at the end of the season…………That’s pretty sad that we can make a deal for Granderson and still be in that position. Not only are we worse, but our competition is stronger.
I’ve always been a Cash supporter, but he’s losing me with his ridiculous notion of a rotating DH.
This whole Melky thing is not difficult to understand. Last season almost every guy in the Yankee lineup had a career year. You can not expect that to happen next season so you have to upgrade in available spots to make up for the fact that, that is probably not going to happen again.
Ladies and Gents, please don’t misunderstand my comments. Like many of you, I’m a die-hard fan. For me, only since ‘76 and proud of it. I want to see my team succeed as you all do.
But I also love to see the hunger and desire in young players, given an opportunity to play and improve, not necessarily brought in because of their resume elsewhere. Of course, you have to balance that with the needs of the team, I do recognize that.
All I’m saying is that while Holliday may be the perfect player for LF, is he absolutely necessary considering the costs involved, and the length of the contract required? Disclaimer: I thought Tex and ARods contracts were too long.
I’d like to see players like Mekly or Pena or Cervelli and others get a chance to perform, maybe not to superstar multi-million dollar contract level, but to be productive contributors to the team. Let them have the opportunity to become stars, or not. Regardless, if there is enough talent on the team to win, and win resoundingly, then keep a Melky or a Cervelli or a Pena, and spend the savings elsewhere.
Like on some pitching.
“Phillies got a great player, but I don’t see him winning any more games than Lee did.”
Doc will be greater in the NL. No DH and weaker line-ups than the AL East.
Aba, I will never believe anything I ever read about any player. Doc supposedly wanted to pitch in NY……nope, Phillies topped his list. For me, I got my hopes up and that was a huge mistake….Holliday? He’ll take the $$$ and run. I don’t buy any speculaton that he wants to come to NY…….
Nick D.
“What is that realm of possibility? Texiera money for Holliday? Jason Bay? Damon for 4 years?”
I don’t want Damon back. Period.
Bay is bad defensively.
Holliday isn’t getting 8 years/$180M. He’ll probably get $18m. I would rather have Holliday now than Crawford next year.
Betsy you really wanted the Yankees to empty the farm for Halladay? If you think Cashman just sat and did nothing you are sadly mistaken.
Melky Cabrera – Yankees 2009
A Newly called up Ellsbury who played just 33 games – Red Sox 2007
Juan Uribe – White Sox 2005
Mark Bellhorn – Rod Sox 2004
The #9 hitters on the last 4 AL WS winners.
Melky is on par or better the any of them.
I would put stat lines but i don’t think it would come out pretty when i post it.
Nick D.
You do know, that for most of Joe D’s career the double play tandem was Rizzuto and Gordon and that they are both in the Hall of Fame, right? We’re used to having good players at all 9 spots on our championship teams, and there’s no good reason why we shouldn’t now. Why should the line-up have a designated outmaker?
Betsy
Who did you want Cash to get that he didn’t get?
let’s go yanks,
I don’t think Seattle is going to spend the type of money needed to land Holliday. They really do need a bat – especially from the RH side. But I think they’ll look in another direction.
They were interested in Bay but only with a “hometown discount” because he lives in Seattle in the off season.
I don’t think they make a run at Holliday but who knows? They definitely are primed to make a run this year. I think they’re trying to win before Felix hits free agency.
Melky’s had more than a chance to perform and he’s a nice player.
He’s not a corner OF.
He’s just not.
You can play him there and take the loss because you have Posada, Cano, Jeter, Granderson, etc., but let’s not sit here and claim Melky is going to transform as a player into something amazing.
Cashman would never have traded for Granderson had he had the faith and belief that Melky was on the cusp of being ready to turn some corner offensively.
I like Melky, but if you tell me I have to pick from Holliday, Damon and Melky for LF, Melky comes in 3rd every single time.
randyhater
Maybe Cash should have known about Clemens’s PED usage? He did suck v. the RS in the 2003 ALCS.
Betsy – high on pie
December 14th, 2009 at 11:42 pm
I just don’t even know what to think anymore. It was a terrible day for Cash, I’m sorry. I really want to know just what pitching he was supposedly interested in. How hard did he even try for Halladay? Not very, it seems. He showed almost no interest in Lackey, either. I wonder exactly where does he think the SP is coming from? Knowing Cash, Sheets and Deutscherer will be too rich for his blood (but then, that could be all on Hal and his budget).
I’m pretty sure Matsui would have gone anywhere in order to play LF – does he really think the Angels are going to be better than the Yankees? In that case, there’s nothing Cash could have done. That said, he did a terrible job by not even making contingency plans. Now he’s at the mercy of Scott Boras, who represents both Damon and Holliday. Good job……..
So, despite Granderson, we are a worse team than we were at the end of the season…………That’s pretty sad that we can make a deal for Granderson and still be in that position. Not only are we worse, but our competition is stronger.
I’ve always been a Cash supporter, but he’s losing me with his ridiculous notion of a rotating DH.
—————————–
1. Cash had no interest in Halladay because he would cripple the Yankees in years and prospects for the foreseeable future. No matter how hard you prayed for Halladay to come here, he was not.
2. Lackey would have been a TERRIBLE contract for Cash to sign. Him and Burnett on 5 year deals would have been a disaster. Not to mention it takes you out of the running for any of the young stud pitchers on the market in the coming years
3. IDK how you could remotely assert that he has no contingency plan. This stuff happened 6 hours ago and free agency does not end for quite some time. To think he does not have plan is ridiculous.
4. If anything Damon’s value sunk with Cameron’s deal
5. You have no idea who the Yankee DH is next year so complaining about some rotating DH is ridiculous
6. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, THE YANKEES STILL HAVE THE BEST TEAM IN BASEBALL AS OF TODAY.
Nick D.
You do know, that for most of Joe D’s career the double play tandem was Rizzuto and Gordon and that they are both in the Hall of Fame, right? We’re used to having good players at all 9 spots on our championship teams, and there’s no good reason why we shouldn’t now. Why should the line-up have a designated outmaker?
——
What I don’t understand is how Melky is a designated out maker.
.274 BA
13 HR
68 RBI
is NOT a designated out maker especially in the 9 hole and not playing every game. I bet you weren’t calling him that when he walked off all those games for us this year.
Betsy,
The off season is not over yet. If by the spring our LF is Melky, we have a rotation DH headed by Miranda and Phil and Joba are our 4&5 I’ll be right there with you worrying about this team…but right now I’m reserving the hand wringing and judgment until the off season has ended.
I wish I believed that the Yanks let Matsui walk and didn’t try to sign Lackey or trade for Halliday, because they’re planning to sneak in a sign Holliday. However, I think their plan is to eventually sign Damon. I’d rather have Holliday on a 5-year contract than have Damon on a 2-year contract.
Aba, Halladay’s not about the $$$ – he’s going to sign an extension for 4 years, $60 million. That’s an absolute bargain for him. He wanted and got the the Phillies…….
Melky’s had more than a chance to perform and he’s a nice player.
He’s not a corner OF.
He’s just not.
You can play him there and take the loss because you have Posada, Cano, Jeter, Granderson, etc., but let’s not sit here and claim Melky is going to transform as a player into something amazing.
Cashman would never have traded for Granderson had he had the faith and belief that Melky was on the cusp of being ready to turn some corner offensively.
I like Melky, but if you tell me I have to pick from Holliday, Damon and Melky for LF, Melky comes in 3rd every single time.
—–
What if it’s
Affordable Melky
Damon demanding 4 years and $10 mil per
Holliday for Tex $ and years
because as of right now, that is what our options are.
The Mariners are putting together quite some team right now, but I still can not fathom why they would resign Griffey with so many better options out there. I also found it strange they were in on Bay since they value defense so much
The interesting thing about them though is that we have no clue how much money they have to spend.
G. Love,
An Ellsbury trade may be possible but I really do think the Sox are most likely out (especially if they don’t already have a trade lined up).
They moved so quickly from Bay to plan B that it seems like Holliday really isn’t on their radar. I’d guess they just don’t think he’s worth the price and Boras’s song and dance.
For the Sox trying to sign Holliday would have serious opportunity costs due to Boras dragginging things out while other players sign elsewhere. That happened to them last year. They really can’t afford that this year.
Also – the Sox may really be buying into this run prevention philosophy and if so they would want to keep Ellsbury (as they seem to perceive him as a plus defender).
Nothing’s certain – but things have changed drastically. A week ago it looked almost certain the Sox would sign either Holliday or Bay. The probability of that now happenning has plummeted – it’s not zero but it’s not very high now either.
See the you guys want above average at every position
Look at above average at every position in the line up.
For a #9 hitter, Melky is above average to compliment the above average guys we have batting at every other damn position in the line up.
Hey guys ! Even with Lackey going to Boston I think they are going to regret giving him a 5 year deal. Check out Lackey’s numbers at Fenway, they aren’t that good. He even said that he hates pitching there.
And the Red Sox offense is worse than it was last year, and their bullpen is worse than last year. The Sox are still behind the Yankees and I still see the Yankees as the team to beat.
G. Love…You make a good point about Boston packaging Ellsbury along with Bucholtz plus parts…..That would mean that they value a young ( very good ) 1st baseman over a young centerfielder…..I think Theo will try to avoid that scenerio at all costs…….As stated earlier, Yanks need a LF & a # 5 stick and that player sits out there…..However would that mean they’ll be no other starter coming to camp besides what is here already…….CB, how much impact would Holliaday have on the Yanks, and also how much have the BoSox loss with Cameron over Bay ????? Your numbers are of great interest to me….
Corey, no I didn’t want Cashman to empty the farm….I just wanted him to stay engaged in the talks. I suppose the Jays probably didn’t want to deal him here….I’m frustrated right now.
Nick D.,
There are always more options than those 3. Those are the 3 we can see right now, but I’m sure Cashman has other possibilities for LF that we’re not even aware of.
If Damon wants 4 years and won’t back off that demand, then I think Matt Holliday will be a Yankee.
And come on Phil, Rizzutto is great but he is was never a Derek Jeter. His personality belongs in the HoF but not exactly his stats. Remember, he was a Vet committee pick.
G Love
Cashman wants a DH who can play the field. He viewed Matsui as only a DH. Same with Vlad. And he runs like he is carrying a piano on his back.
I agree Nick.
Bingo. That’s it. It’s not that there’s a need for it, it’s that ‘we’re used to having food players at all 9 spots on our championship teams, and there’s no good reason why we shouldn’t now.’
It’s entitlement.
No Phil, you’re implying that Melky is not a good player. But your statement didn’t say that we had great players at every position, it said good players.
Melky is a good player. Better than Garner right now, though that may change. Point is, he’s better than average, and ON HIS OWN, does not drag down the team’s chances for winning on a daily basis.
How many clutch hits and game-winning hits did Melky have in 2009?
How many clutch hits and game-winning hits did Holliday have in 2009?
I’m NOT saying that Melky is better than Holliday. I am saying that statistics DO NOT and CAN NOT tell the entire story, nor should they.
We have a need for an upgrade in the starting rotation, which I believe you would agree with, and BY GOD, if we don’t improve our starting pitching depth, we may NOT make it this year to the WS. I’d rather spend those dollars, particularly since there appears to be a budget ceiling, on pitching, pitching, pitching.
In my mind, you add a proven starter to add depth. Injuries are a matter of when, not if, and I do not want to be reliant on Mitre or Gaudin because I used up my budget on LF. Sign Sheets if possible, and add a bullpen arm, if possible. LF and DH can wait for upgrades another year – if necessary, because I think you’re right in that Miranda will probably do fine as DH, just as Melky can do fine in LF.
Nick D.
Cause at .336 Melky will probably have the lowest OBP on our team if we start him, and would therefore be making more out per ab than anyone else in the line-up.
edit: used to having good players – not food players
LOL!
# Rose December 14th, 2009 at 11:45 pm
“Phillies got a great player, but I don’t see him winning any more games than Lee did.”
Doc will be greater in the NL. No DH and weaker line-ups than the AL East.
____________
And Lee was a scrub? Lee shut down the Yankee offense far better than Halladay. He is younger as well. No doubt that Halladay will do well in the NL, but are you telling me that he will win so many more games than Lee?
Its a lateral move for the Phillies for the 2010 season. The only plus is the extension but they gave up a lot in trading for Lee and now Halladay.
I think it’s fair to say Damon = Granderson in terms of production and perhaps even Granderson > Damon
So as long as we can get a serviceable DH, even if we don’t bring back Damon then we are basically no different then last years team as we are right no. Only difference is Melky is in left instead of center.
DaSaint,
Melky’s not a good player. He’s a little below average. We’ve been waiting for him to be a good player, but it hasn’t happened yet. We have a great opportunity to pick up a perfect fit for the team, and I think we should do it.
Apparently Betsy bugged Cashman’s office, because that is the only way you would know Cash did not stay engaged in talks.
Got news for you on those pesky Mariners from the Northwest.
They shed $50 million this year, and have only taken on about $20 million. They’ve got another $20-30 million to spend. They’re in it for Bay or Holliday, but need the years if they want flexibility to extend Lee or King Felix. Who knows, maybe they extend Felix this year?
Betsy – really, you’re not making any sense.
You’re “frustrated”?
Did your euphoria really only last two months?
Your GM won a championship 9 weeks ago, and you’re frustrated that he didn’t purge his farm for Roy Halladay? Is having CC, AJ, Andy and MO not good enough for you?
I worry about you, Betsy. I really do.
DaSaint,
Melky is not a better than average player as a LF or RF.
He just isn’t.
He’s been a good fill in as a CF, but in a corner it’s a massive drop off from Damon or Swisher to Melky.
And oh yea..we won the world series and 103 games last year.
I think Granderson is replacing Damons production. If they sign another bat they are set.
So who exactly did the Phils give up for Halladay? I keep reading that it was a salary dump for Lee and they gave up too much, even for Halladay
DaSaint,
Melky is not a better than average player as a LF or RF.
He just isn’t.
He’s been a good fill in as a CF, but in a corner it’s a massive drop off from Damon or Swisher to Melky.
—–
But by that logic Granderson is a major improvement from Melky in CF so it all evens out if not improves because granderson could potentially blow Damon out of the water in terms of production.
“Aba, Halladay’s not about the $$$ – he’s going to sign an extension for 4 years, $60 million. That’s an absolute bargain for him. He wanted and got the the Phillies…….”
i saw 3 years at 60…with possible vesting options
G Love just curious but if Granderson moved to left would you change your mind?
I know its a business – I get that. But a small part of me feels sad about this news.
Big Six, I don’t need to be patronized. If you think our rotation is so great, so be it. LOL I still have not gotten one decent response to my question as to why people think this rotation is so good when 99% of the people dislike AJ and think he is the height of mediocrity. They trashed him during the season and after game 5 of the WS – just when did they change their mind on him? Sorry, you’ll forgive me if I am not assuming that Phil and Joba are going to be great this year. They are HUGE question marks.
Betsy, Cashman does not put out press releases for any of the talks he has with GMs. Remember how people trashed Cashman on not even trying to get Washburn? Then after a while it came out that Seattle was looking for a lot for the rental of Washburn from the Yankees.
I don’t think Cameron was in Cashman’s sights. From the sound of it, Matsui probably wasn’t in his plans unless so many other things didn’t happen. (This I think was a mistake on his part, but that is my opinion).
I don’t think the Jays got much for Halladay compared to what they were asking for from the Yankees or Boston, but that was probably the tax for being in the same division. Still, the Jays fans are probably fewer tonight for this deal. Better than draft picks, but they aren’t winning more games this coming season.
I don’t think Lackey was a target either. His arm issues might be why the Angels were willing to let him go. It might have been why Cash didn’t look much at him other than maybe check the price tag.
My issue is more with the lack of DH right now. Sign a DH who can replicate Matsui’s numbers and then we can play Melky or Gardner in an OF spot and get away with it.
Right now though our LF is Melky and DH is Miranda.
This is a major step backwards for this offense and can turn into a huge problem.
Let Posada hit the DL and our offense is in deep trouble with this current group.
Remember the “instant out” bottom of the order in 2008?
That’s what we’re staring at unless another offensive force is brought in.
Do we even know what the Phillies gave up? The players keep changing all the time. They now have an ace and a half (Doc is better than Lee – it’s not even that close) for 4 years instead of Lee for one…….Lee, who probably wasn’t going to sign an extension.
Betsy this rotation just won the world series. You really think the Yankees needed to give up an arm and a leg for Halladay? Yankees just need to take a chance on a low risk high reward guy like Sheets.
I’m done.
Hopefully, based on the sage advice espoused above, Holliday will be a Yankee by Christmas, as it’s too smart a move not to make by Cashman. Fine by me.
Next year, maybe Swisher gets replaced by another high-priced bat. So be it. It’s the Yankee way.
Hopefully our pitching holds up this year, as we have lots of talent but not a lot of talented depth. C’est la vie.
My issue is more with the lack of DH right now. Sign a DH who can replicate Matsui’s numbers and then we can play Melky or Gardner in an OF spot and get away with it.
Right now though our LF is Melky and DH is Miranda.
This is a major step backwards for this offense and can turn into a huge problem.
Let Posada hit the DL and our offense is in deep trouble with this current group.
Remember the “instant out” bottom of the order in 2008?
That’s what we’re staring at unless another offensive force is brought in.
—-
I absolutely agree that the Yanks could use another bat and I wouldn’t really like to see Miranda as our DH. I just don’t think we need to break the bank for one of the LF guys.
“how much impact would Holliaday have on the Yanks, and also how much have the BoSox loss with Cameron over Bay ?????”
Depends on the potential alignments. Compared to Damon in LF, Holliday would be around 2.5-3 wins better. Compared to Melky in LF, Holliday would be around 4-5 wins better. Around there.
Holliday would be a significant upgrade over Damon and a huge upgrade over Melky.
(p.s. Melky profiles to be close to a replacement level player in LF – he would be a considerable drain on the team).
Halladay is getting 20 million a year for the extension. That may be a discount, but not much of a discount.
Lee wasn’t making all that much was he? Next year he gets a big raise, but the only reason he is considered a salary dump is because the Phillies couldn’t pay for Halladay and Lee this season. They might have to wave good bye to Werth next year.
Betsy – remain calm and be patient.
Halladay and Lackey are not the only pitchers on the market.
If you were hoping for Sabathia, Halladay, Burnett, Lackey, Petitte, then I guess I’m sorry for you.
But that’s not reality to a team with this payroll and luxury tax.
The one plus with Holliday though is that they can have him for a while during some very prime playing years. It solves having to cover a hole in a year or two.
I think Holliday would make the upcoming Holiday feel much brighter though!
CB, how does Miranda rate compared to Matsui?
Well the Red Sox didn’t get younger they got older. Cameron will not get the job done. Ortiz is done he can’t use roids anymore, Ellsbury has no power,V-Mart has never got a full season of games, Drew is always in the hospital, Dustin Pedroia is too small and can’t hit the high fastball, Youk is still a threat but he whines too much, Varitek couldn’t hit a paper bag, Beckett breaks down every year, Dice-k is overrated, and Papelbon is falling apart.
The Sox did improve, but they are still a wild card team.
The Cardinals have offered Matt Holliday a deal which would pay him $16MM per year for at least eight seasons, writes Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltod.....enDocument
Cards are offering Holliday 16M for at least 8 seasons.
Think the Yankees could come in with 17 or 18 a year? How many years? Seems like a decent offer, but it would put them in a tight position for paying the other players on the team after Pujols. (It also pays more than Pujols makes.)
mlbtraderumors quotes a report saying the Cards are offering Holliday 8/16M. So much for getting him.
“And Lee was a scrub? Lee shut down the Yankee offense far better than Halladay. He is younger as well. No doubt that Halladay will do well in the NL, but are you telling me that he will win so many more games than Lee?”
Doc will win 20 in the NL. He will not be pitching in the AL East. He is facing weaker hitting teams and he is playing for a team that can hit. And Doc is only a year older than Lee.
I was not downgrading Lee. He did win the Cy Young with Cleveland. But look at Doc’s stats. He was/is a tremendous pitcher. Better than Lee.
Betsy-
It’s late. It’s been a long day. Filled with trades. Almost seemed like players were flyin all over the place. If it gives you any comfort to know this I agree that there is still considerable risk IMO within our present rotation, and because of this I believe Cash should, and probably will sign another quality starter.
For me right now there is greater risk on the run prevention side of the ball than on the run production side.
We took a hit losing Damon and mats but we replaced at least half of that production by signing Granderson. I do not believe it is necessary to be the #1 offense in baseball to win it all again.
Much rather see us be a great offense and near the top in pitching/defense.
Try to have a little more faith in Cash. He said he was going to focus on more pitching and I believe he will. I would like him to get an impact arm like Sheets but he just may have something else in mind ? For example, a trade that no one sees at this moment. He has a far wider and broader view of things than we do. Actually we dont know Jack. We just guess at things mostly but He KNOWS what he wants to do.
Perhaps, he will still get Sheets. We just dont know yet.
It all begins again tommorrow. Other clubs have improved but we still have a fine team. Just needs a couple more tweaks.
I have a feeling Holliday will be signing a deal sooner rather than later. No idea who he will sign with though.
That offer is going to help set the rate for any other bidders for him.
As I was saying…
8 years? Holliday playing LF when he is 38? WTH are the Cardinals thinking?
If thats a real offer, I don’t see the Yanks competing for Holliday. I severely doubt Cashman would offer 8 years. The $16 M/yr isn’t as bad though considering Bay was offered $15 M/yr by the Sox. Just way too much length involved on that contract for a guy who didn’t perform all that well while briefly in the AL
Rose, wow. Just wow.
I won’t bother responding anymore to you. Its like pushing a rope to get you to understand. Not gonna happen.
Jeremy
With your scouting report, the Red Sox shouldn’t even be a wild card team.
If that St. Louis offer is real then Holliday stays in St. Louis.
lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins)
December 14th, 2009 at 11:33 pm
DaSaint007
December 14th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
I hope you all are right about the market coming down. Because in my mind, if the market comes down, it increases the number of teams that can afford that dollar amount, not decreases it.
If the market is now $20 mil per for Holliday, and it comes down to $17 mil, then Card money and Met money is just as good as Yankee money.
I don’t get the logic…
————————-
Well, the Red Sox can not afford Holliday now whether it is 17 or 20 million. The Angels do not want to deal with Boras. The Mets seem to be trying to wrap up Bay ASAP and probably will not wait around for the Holliday thing to get resolved.
So it comes down to the Cards and Yanks and the Cards prob will not go past 18 million.
I am also going to throw Seattle out there, but am not sure if they can afford him at this point.
———————————————————-
As I was saying…
“how does Miranda rate compared to Matsui?”
Good question. A lot of that depends on how many at bats you want to assume Matsui stays healthy for next year. That is by far the biggest variable to consider. And predicting health is extremely difficult – at best you can give a range.
But for now let’s assume Matsui would get 450 at bats next year and Miranda the same. At the same time, let’s assume Miranda would be a league average hitter to slightly above league average hitter.
Under those assumptions Matsui would be around 1.5-2 wins better.
That’s a considerable gap in wins, especially because Miranda could be horrible and that risk has to be factored in. So it’s not only the 1.5-2 wins, it’s 1.5-2 Wins + a significant risk premium.
Big Six, I really didn’t want Lackey…….I DID want Doc, but I have no idea if the Jays would ever have come back down. I knew his being traded to the Phils or Angels was inevitable….The only hope of Halladay being a Yankee as if he wanted to sign here specifically and was willing to wait to become a FA. I don’t really like our rotation (and I love AJ), but what are you going to do? I spent all day getting aggravated and it’s not doing me any good. I don’t love our pen either.
Frankly the worst is that we are now desperate to sign Holliday. I’m not sure how he worked it, but Cash got himself into this situation….Not good.
Rose
LOL ! I know. They would be behind the Blue Jays with that scouting report.
Apparently (if verified) the Cards are serious about wanting to retain Holliday. No other team is gonna touch that.
Johnny Damon come on down !
Jeremy, I read somewhere that after June 30th, Ortiz had the most HR and RBI in baseball……I’m not counting him out.
If Holliday will be playing LF at 38 for $18 million in 2009 dollars in 2018, then Damon will surely say that paying $13 million in 2009 dollars at age 36 is a bargain.
So much for the sages theories.
AS I said, its Economics. Pure and simple.
Wow, $16 million for 8 years for Holliday. Forget that, Yankees – Melky now our LF?
Abdababdaserser
Thank you.
What you don’t want to understand is if you name the top 3 pitchers in baseball Doc is right there.
Cliff Lee is in the top 10.
sorry I meant to say that V-Mart has never played a full season of games as a catcher.
Cards make big offer to Holliday:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....liday.html
CB, how do you compute that?
Do you average Matsui’s production over the past several years or just 2009. I’d be really interested to understand the computation, so if you could point me in the right direction, I’d really appreciate that.
No Holliday it reeks of desperation.He can’t hit in the AL.
DaSaint,
Those two situations are not AT ALL linked nor have any remote impact on each other
no way that offer exists… if they offer that to holliday what the hell are they going to offer pujols?
MTU, I am still a Cash supporter, but today was just crazy bad…..and now Holliday (who I didn’t want) is really not an option anymore.
Betsy – high on pie
Ortiz is done ! You can buy into the hype but he is nothing more than an overrated drug user. He doesn’t have the bat speed to catch up with the inside fastball anymore. I know because I watched some Sox games and whenever Ortiz faces decent pitching he sucks. The reason why he improved at the end of the season was because of crappy pitching from the Orioles, Blue Jays, and other sorry teams.
CB, I have to say that I’m just taken back on how little of a return the club recieves with Melky in the everyday lineup…..I suppose his improvement curve is of lesser value than what I percieved…………Betsy getting drilled today & I just don’t see why……Maybe some here miss Tricia more than they let on……Shake it off Betsy
DaSaint,
It’s really pretty simple if you use a stat called wOBA to compare the players.
Find the difference in wOBA between player 1 and 2. Divide that by 1.15. Multiply by the number of expected at bats.
That’s it.
Pat M.
Melky’s best year was when he was 21 which was the year he stuck. This year he finished with the same OPS. but a lower OBP, so his age 21 year was his best. He hasn’t improved a lick. And he continually looks like he’s out of shape.
Pat M.,
For melky to be a plus contributor for the team – especially at a corner outfield slot – he wouldn’t just have to improve – he’d have to take a big step forward.
Incremental improvements aren’t going to help all that much.
lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins)
December 15th, 2009 at 12:34 am
DaSaint,
Those two situations are not AT ALL linked nor have any remote impact on each other
————————————————————
Not sure what you’re referring to. But it appears that my theory of the market dropping, thereby making it affordable for teams to affordably bid has happened. And if the dollar amounts are the same, though not the years, then one has to consider preference of Team/City as a factor.
Yanks could offer 5 or 6 years at $20 million/year now. Wouldn’t make a difference. All that would do is push up the annual dollar value. Defeats the purpose of ‘having the market come down by waiting’.
So, what are the alternatives for LF in case this is deemed too expensive an option?? Suggestions anyone?? Are there numerical analyses to say who’s next on the list?
I would make an offer of 5 years at $20m per to see how much he wants to play here.
My psychic prediction: Next August, the yanks will be running away with the division, while boston struggles to stay in wild card contention with the Angels after losing ortiz, cameron, varitek, and lackey to season ending injuries
Thanks CB. Much appreciated.
8 years at 16 million is $128 million.
The only way I see the Yankees getting involved is shorter years and higher annual avg. salary but the salary would be ridiculous to match that offer.
The other thing is we don’t know what that offer is. Is it team options that take it to 8 years?
Is it deferred money? If so, that brings down the value of the offer.
Are there performance incentives?
I have a hard time believing St. Louis is going in that deep knowing they have to pay Pujols Arod money shortly.
Something is fishy about that offer.
Phil, he’s 25 years old, besides didn’t his offensive numbers go up ???? Batting average, rbi’s, hr’s, total bases, game winning hits, runs scored..I’m not looking his stats up, it just appeared that he improved in 09….Once again I’m not advocating he’s the answer, although when all things considered, he was and still is the better option for 2 years than Mike Cameron….
are they freakin nuts!
http://zellspinstripeblog.com/.....r-as-well/
“I still have not gotten one decent response to my question as to why people think this rotation is so good”
How about the Yankees won 103 games and then cruised through the play-offs with the same top 3 they had last year.
Yes, you can certainly argue Pettitte will be a year older so therefore they won’t be as good, but if you add what Wang actually did during the year plus what they got out of the #5 starters, even a mediocre year outta Hughes or an acquistion will be an upgrade.
And as other have pointed out, its December 15th, not April 6th (or July 2010 or October 2010 for that matter).
I’ve said this before I’ll say it again, you seem to favor your worst fears over history and evidence that’s right in front of you.
Yanks as CURRENTLY made up are very likely an AL play-off team. What else is there on December 15th?
wow everyone step off the ledge!!! This current rotation won the World Series last year! Granderson improves the outfield defense, Damon most likely the DH w/ occasional days in LF when the AROD, Posada, Jeter, etc needs to DH. Hughes can be a good starter and Cashman is probably not done w/ our rotation… You can’t expect every Superstar, Melky can handle LF and Roy Halladay is shipped to the NL which is a win. Lackey is a gamer but as said, Cash is not done and even if he somehow is I feel ok w/ this team….I really have faith in Hughes after seeing him start early in the 09 season
Seriously Cashman – patience is not always a virtue. i SWEAR if a player is signed early in the off season, the yanks are never in it because cash insists on waiting out EVERYTHING. We couldnt offer lackey a 5 year deal? The guy is only 31. That would be signing him to 36. They signed him for around 16 mil a year? tHATS WHAT WE GAVE BURNETT! Lackey is far, far better than burnett. Cash blew this one. We have matsui coming off the books and clearly we could have afforded him. We have 3 real starters so clearly we could have used him. Cash was taken by theo on this one.
Waahhhh!!!!
Oh, how I’m going to miss Hideki-sama! I wish him the best…the Angels not so much.
Pat M, thanks – I appreciate your defense. It’s really just one person and his cohort. I’m used to it…….
“Big Six, I really didn’t want Lackey…….I DID want Doc, but I have no idea if the Jays would ever have come back down. I knew his being traded to the Phils or Angels was inevitable….”
You didn’t want Lackey and thought Halliday to another team was inevitable.
Then why was today bad again?
I must be missing something….
The leak on the Holliday offer comes from the Cards. Boras isn’t going to leak to Joe Strauss. That’s from a St. Louis source.
That the Cards are leaking this now means they are getting tired of Boras’s waiting game.
They are also leaking this so that Boras can’t go around and shop their offer as a mystery offer to other clubs.
That’s an unprecedented contract for the Cards. No one was anticipating they would go that many years.
But the AAV isn’t particularly high.
And just as important – we don’t know how the deal is structured and how much of it is backloaded. I’d guess a big chunk of it is backloaded.
The contract could be worth far less in real dollars than what the $128 cumulative total it adds up to on paper represents.
Finally, Holliday was adamant about a no trade clause. He would definitely want that from St. Louis because this deal, especially back loaded, could make Holliday a priority for the Cards to trade later on.
Either way – this is St. Louis saying this is our best offer.
It’s an offer the yankees could top in terms of real dollars, especially if they structure the deal in certain ways.
…..fighting urge to respond to Dave
This was a disasterous day for the Yanks. There is now a gaping hole in the 5 spot. Matsui was the perfect protection for Arod. And Lackey is better and more consistant than Burnett. Cashman must have been sleeping…
Congrats to Boston, though, for at least trying to improve themselves. Oh well, Cashman can enjoy Mitre getting shelled every fifth day.
Pat,
his “improvement” was mostly the new park. When he was 21 he used to work some walks. He’s gotten away from that instead of developing it. It looked like he might be very good a some point. It just hasn’t happened and he never looks like he’s in shape. When he was in the minors, Billy Masse thought he would win a batting title some day, but he just doesn’t seem to have the work habits or desire. A lot of people knock Cano because he smiles a lot, but he was the one getting up at the crack of dawn trying to be a great player and he’s almost there.
Dave
The yankees are World Champions. Why do you care about Lackey ? The guy breaksdown every year like Beckett. You sound like a Red Sox fan stop worrying about the Sox being better because they aren’t.
Stuckey, I hope you’re right……..
i don’t understand all the love for holliday.
did everyone forget that he sucked in OAK, who plays in the weak AL West? In 4 months of playing with OAK, he hit .286 with 11 hr, .831 ops, fielding % .98.
Here’s Damon’s #’s through the same day (7/23): .281 w/ 16 hr, .869 ops, fielding % .978.
i don’t see the “huge” upgrade that everyone is talking about. he may kill NL pitching, but this is the best division in MLB.
cash will do better w/o overpaying.
“Lackey is far, far better than burnett”
Except that no, he actually isn’t, if actual performance is any indication.
Stuckey, because a part of me still had hope that we would get Halladay…….I’m not happy about that. I also didn’t expect Lackey necessarily to go to the Sox……and Lee to go to the Ms.
greg
The offseason is not over so what are you talking about ? Mitre will not be the 5th starter. Get a clue before talking.
Also Boston has no offense, their bullpen is not that good and now they have 4 guys in their rotation that are very injury prone.
I’m surprised that I’m reading that Phillie fans are very upset about the trade…….they got the best pitcher in baseball who will be even better in the NL. Are they upset about giving up Lee? That I understand because he carried the team pitching wise…..Are they upset because they gave up some very good prospects?
CB,
Agreed. Boras would never leak that offer. I expect Heyman to counter with a true breakdown of what that offer actually is and it’s going to diminish what it looks like to everyone right now.
If it’s heavily backloaded or the last years are options the Yankees could dwarf the offer if they want the player.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see that the last 2-3 years are where all the money is in that offer.
That said, 128 million is a lot of money for Holliday.
The Yankees have to come back to where they were last year with Tex. They have to look ahead at the market for the next few seasons and decide if getting Holliday now is worth more than taking the chance to wait for player X.
If the Yankees actually think they might sign Mauer if he reaches free agency then I don’t think they get involved in Holliday.
Fool-proof logic:
Burnett was an incredibly risky signing in which we overpaid for him because we needed pitching and had an eye on the 2009 WS
Lackey is an incredibly risky signing, is about the same as Burnett (less talent, more consistent), so we should sign him as well.
I don’t know why a lot of people thought this was a bad day ?
Did you think that the Yankees would get Halladay and Lackey and sign Matsui ? Some of you need to get a clue. The Yanks are not the only team in baseball.
And the yankees are still the team to beat.
Since the budget seems fairly set for the near future and the Yankees do not have any significant contracts expiring next season I think they make have their sights set on a front line pitcher (Cliff Lee) instead of a position player (Crawford)
But that’s the thing Betsy, I didn’t say anything that requires “hope” to be right about.
The Yankees won 103 games. The cruised to a World Series win. You don’t need optimism or faith to understand that, it’s history. It already happened.
You want to look up the ERA that Wang, Mitre and Hughes put up in their combined 25 starts? How much faith do you need that the Yankees can find a 5th starter that can pitch to an under 7 ERA?
This has nothing to do with pessimism vs. optimism, it has to do with do you actually UNDERSTAND what transpired in 2009 and the results?
This was a disasterous day for the Yanks. There is now a gaping hole in the 5 spot. Matsui was the perfect protection for Arod. And Lackey is better and more consistant than Burnett. Cashman must have been sleeping…
Congrats to Boston, though, for at least trying to improve themselves. Oh well, Cashman can enjoy Mitre getting shelled every fifth day.
—–
Oh right, i forgot that the off season ended today.
How silly of all of us.
G. Love,
I’d guess at least one of those 8 years is an option year. Perhaps two with some kind of vesting feature.
7 years guaranteed at 16M is $112M. If the deal is backloaded the total value could be around $100-105M in real dollars.
One thing for certain – I don’t think the Holliday camp was thrilled with the offer and I don’t think St. Louis is thrilled about waiting too much longer.
That they leaked this story now – on the day when the market really defined itself and players are coming off the board – isn’t an accident.
I also really like all the AJ bashing going on.
Reading the comments on this site you really wouldn’t think we just won a world series.
“Stuckey, because a part of me still had hope that we would get Halladay…….I’m not happy about that.”
So your favorite team have by far the best regular season in the game, then go on to have the best post-season in the game, and you need for a long-shot to come in and the Yanks to get “the best pitcher” in the game to feel secure about next season?
THIS is what’s wrong with some Yankees fans. They get upset, angry or nervous if Bud Selig doesn’t forfeit the next season on half of the other 29 teams before Christmas.
“If the Yankees actually think they might sign Mauer if he reaches free agency then I don’t think they get involved in Holliday.”
Maeur is the big uncertainty. People keep talking about Adrian Gonzalez but it wouldn’t surprise me if the Sox went the Cameron route, passing on Bay and Holliday, partially to take a shot at Mauer should be hit the market.
Mauer is the player who could close the gap between the Sox and yankees the fastest.
The Yanks are nearing their budget and Hal will not go over it……..I definitely do not expect them to pursue Holliday. I’m guessing Cash overpays Damon (years and money) because there’s no one left.
No way Mauer hits FA – but if he does, the way Hal is tightening the purse strings, I expect the Sox to sign him……..
Brace yourself for another signing in the next day or so as the Sox pony up the cash for Chapman….
No way Mauer hits FA – but if he does, the way Hal is tightening the purse strings, I expect the Sox to sign him……..
Brace yourself for another signing in the next day or so as the Sox pony up the cash for Chapman….
Granderson is an improvemnt ( significant in my mind ) over Damon…But it’s the loss of Matsui’s stick in the 5 hole that has set off a red flag for me……I can live ( if necessary ) with Hughes & Joba in the rotation if need me, however the lineup is a concern folks…..If anyone here thinks that this lineup is going to post the same numbers in 2010 you need to sit back and re-examine 2009…..
Maeur is the big uncertainty. People keep talking about Adrian Gonzalez but it wouldn’t surprise me if the Sox went the Cameron route, passing on Bay and Holliday, partially to take a shot at Mauer should be hit the market.
Mauer is the player who could close the gap between the Sox and yankees the fastest.
—-
Yea my guess is the Twins extend him before he gets to free agency. But damn would he look good in pinstripes. He’s my new fav non-Yankee in baseball taking the mantle from Tex and Grandy (good track record with that btw)
Imagine if the Sox picked up Gonzalez and Mauer? Brimstone would rain on the bronx.
“And Lackey is better and more consistant than Burnett.”
Besides the fact that he’s actually not, what has one have to do with the other???
Cashman didn’t sign Burnett over Lackey. He signed Burnett last off-season and won a world series.
The point is, Burnett is now a part of the Yankees. What do comparisons to Lackey have to do with anything.
AJ’s postseason meltdowns speak for themselves. Lackey is a far more dependable guy and would have been the number two guy ahead of the choker Burnett.
The Yankees are still the team to beat.
However, they passed on the opportunity to sign a DH who wanted to remain with the team, and sign a 1 year, affordable contract, giving the team the flexibility to pursue other areas of concern this year and succeeding years.
They passed on the opportunity to improve OF defense with another GG caliber OF, though he would only have cost 1 or 2 years for an affordable amount, and would have been a hedge against not being successful in their ultimate LF upgrade this year. Call it the Swisher strategy, part 2, except it wasn’t executed.
This could have allowed them to pass on Damon, who wants 3 years minimum. OR pass on Holliday, who really probably wants to stay in the NL and could be using the Yankees to drive up his eventual contract.
Or they could have allocated $10-$15 million on some pitching depth, by saving on the items listed above. We all know that pitching wins championships, not hitting. Well defense helps to cut down on runs, so opportunity lost.
Now, if I’m the Yankees, and I need to upgrade LF as many here say is needed, what do I do? Trade for DeJesus if I can’t get Holliday? Chip may be right after all.
Wow, what a day. Biggest winner is probably Damon.
With Matsui (will miss him), Cameron, Bay and Holliday (seemingly) out of the picture, the Yankees have no choice but to sign Damon. He will shift between DH and LF (when resting others). If they are smart enough to sign Damon, from an offensive standpoint, they will be ok and basically the same as last year, with an improved defense. My order would be;
Jeter
Damon
Tex
Arod
Cano
Posada
Granderson
Swisher
Melky
You basically lose Matsui and pick up Granderson. Matsui is probably better offensively, but Granderson’s defense more than makes up for it. You also get to slot Melky in on defense and hope his bat improves from 09.
Still the best offense in baseball. Red Sox pick up Cameron, but lose Lowell. Angels pick up Matsui, but lose Figgins and Vlad.
Pitching will be another story. The Yankees basically have the same pitching staff they used in the playoffs, but they need to pitch an entire season, not win 11 games. Top 3 are great, and you hope Joba/Hughes are good as starters. But they will have inning caps (Atleast hughes). The pen is also worse than last year, and the back-up starters are Mitre and Gaudin.
On the other hand, the Red Sox and the Mariners just improved pitching wise. Forget the playoffs. In those crucial 3 or 4 game series in August/Sept, CC, AJ and Andy are good. But facing Beckett, Lester, Lackey or King Felix, Lee + another, certainly won’t be easy. As for Lackey, he pitched against CC in the playoffs and held is own. Now he gets to pitch against the Yankees #3.
Bottom line, offense will be there (if Damon is signed). But they need another pitcher to remain as strong.
AJ’s postseason meltdowns speak for themselves. Lackey is a far more dependable guy and would have been the number two guy ahead of the choker Burnett.
—-
You seem to forget that AJ had more WS wins then CC. Its not fair to call any of AJs starts in the post season meltdowns. Not Gems but not meltdowns.
He prob won one the biggest game of the year for the yanks in Game 2 and that counts for something.
Pat M.,
I don’t think the team just let Matsui walk away for 6.5M without acknowledging to themselves that there is a hole in the line up that needs to be filled now.
The big question this off season was whether the yankees would try to bring back the team intact and gamble on the veterans producing again or if they would try to get younger.
I personally didn’t like the idea of bringing back the team intact. Too much went right to count on the same aging squad next year.
And it’s very clear now – with Granderson, with letting Matsui walk, and with their hard line on Damon they have decided that they would not just bring back the same team.
They have to have thought this through. Not a guarantee an optimal outcome will result.
But they clearly know there are holes in the line up that should be filled.
“No way Mauer hits FA – but if he does, the way Hal is tightening the purse strings, I expect the Sox to sign him……..
Brace yourself for another signing in the next day or so as the Sox pony up the cash for Chapman….”
Yeah, let’s all just get it over with now. IN 2011 the Sox are going to be rocking a rotation of Felix Hernandez, 20 game winner Ardolis Chapman, Jon Lester, John Lackey and Clay. Buckholz.
Adrian Gonzalez will be at first, Hanley Ramirez at short, Joe Mauer at catcher, and Carl Crawford in the outfield.
They’re going to be so good in fact MLB will institute a new rule that will allow for Pawtucket to qualify for the AL wildcard position.
i wanted lackey as well, but not for that much. 4 yrs @ 15 M would have been about the limit.
lackey is more consistent, but isn’t lights out like AJ “could” be.
who you’d rather have is preference. for me, i’d rather take the pitcher that can be lights out.
i have a feeling lackey’s era will be getting a decent bump c/o the AL East and NYY.
Matsui wanted to play the OF – that’s it, that’s why he’s in Anaheim.
Matsui wanted to play the OF – that’s it, that’s why he’s in Anaheim.
King Felix and Lee have the potential to be the nastiest 1/2 punch since Schilling/Johnson. too bad it’ll only be fore one season (or rather very good).
I think the real question is what impact players are available next off season?
So far I know Crawford and Cliff Lee.
I don’t see Lee affecting signing Holliday as Pettitte should be retiring and off the books next season. Also Igawa’s awful contract finally ends next season. Add in Gaudin, Andy and Igawa and it’s close to what Lee will take if the Yankees want to bring him in.
Thinking about the offense we have to re-sign Jeter and who knows what that will cost otherwise all the players are still there. Will Jeter get a raise? Will we get him for slightly less?
In reality there is no big money opening up from an offensive player exiting.
The Yankees will have to go over budget to get Holliday and it might cause them to trade Melky as he’s going to get a raise in arbitration and using his money for a 4th OF might not be wise.
AJ has been living off “could” his entire career. Lackey doesn’t just give up when things don’t go his way.
“The Yanks are nearing their budget and Hal will not go over it”
Since you’re privy to the Yankees budget I would love to know what it is.
It will be interesting to see what our next move will be.
Well the bottom line is, that pitcher isn’t out there. There is no pitcher currently on the free agent market who quantifies as an upgrade over what Hughes of Joba would give us out of the fourth and fifth spots. And to be honest, people are selling both of them real short.
ZIPS projects Chamberlain is our second best starter next year with a 107 ERA +. He is the only number four starter in baseball right now who still could be utterly spectacular. People who are giving up on him as a starter after one inconsistent year disgust me- this guy was the best pitcher in baseball over a twelve start stretch in 2008 and he very well may need a 18 months to recover from whatever was troubling his shoulder.
The only pitcher who presents a potential upgrade on the market is Ben Sheets, who could provide Joba with some incentive to not be the next guy to waste Hall of Fame talent by being a lazy fatass. He’s a top 10 pitcher in baseball when he’s healthy, but he hasn’t had a fully healthy season in five years and I see no reason why he should get that amount of guaranteed money AND a guaranteed rotation spot after a year on the shelf.
G.Love raised an interesting point. He mentioned that Andy should be retiring next year. Says who? Cashman may not want to offer another contract, but if he’s productive (12-15 wins), it may be hard to let him go. So I’m not sure we can count on Andy’s $12 million to come off the books next year.
Frankly, and I hate to say it, but it would not surprise me to see Melky, Swisher, and Marte being traded to cut costs. And the same goes for Gaudin and Mitre, particularly if the kids in AAA do well. All that could add up to over $17 million. That’s part of the reason Molina may not be resigned. He made $2 million last year I believe.
It is my belief that the Yankees have been given a budget to work within, at least to start the season, and they must fall under that self-imposed cap. Maybe later in the season, depending on standings and need, Hal and Hank will open those purse strings.
Do he Yanke realize they need more than just three starters? Phlop isn’t the answer and neither is Joba the drunk.
CB,
Are you actually inferring that Cashman has a plan? You are going to sit there and tell me that Cashman was not just taking a nap today when all these deals went down?
Crazy talk I tell ya!
Can anyone name a team’s 4-5 starters they would take over Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain?
No, you probably can’t.
“Do he Yanke realize they need more than just three starters? Phlop isn’t the answer and neither is Joba the drunk.”
Who was #4 and #5 in the 2009 Championship season?
Betsy – high on pie
December 15th, 2009 at 1:17 am
Matsui wanted to play the OF – that’s it, that’s why he’s in Anaheim.
————————
So not only do you have Cashman’s office wire tapped you have Matsui’s as well? You have got some serious connections.
Dave
Learn how to speak correct english. Second, the Yankees need to develop pitching and Joba and Hughes are back end starters so it’s not that big of a deal. Third, the offseason is not over yet and the Yankees will make another move. So calm down ! And realize the Yankees are World Champions.
The Yankees got lucky last year with no significant injuries as in Posada’s shoulder, A Rod quick return, etc. At this point they are a stronger team then at the end of the season. (Granderson for Damon and Hughes as a starter). Why would the Yankees groom Joba and Phil as starters and then trash them by getting another starter? There are a multitude of DHs starting with Delgado and Thome. So what’s the rush? If something comes up that improves their team down the road, great, if not, ehh. All Star break will come quickly and the payroll would be flexible.
G-C
December 15th, 2009 at 1:29 am
Can anyone name a team’s 4-5 starters they would take over Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain?
No, you probably can’t.
———————–
I would like to know the answer to this question as well. Any bridge jumpers want to take a stab at it?
Anyone? Taking numbers right now! Better number 4-5 starters than Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain, people!
If someone can present me with a convincing argument I may start to entertain the thought that the Yankees need another starter. But until then I don’t see the need to ‘upgrade’ from two guys who can undoubtedly pitch league average, typical 4-5 starter baseball (hell, Joba did this in a horrific season for him), and who present 1-2 starter potential should things happen to click.
Anyway folks, its been a long and interesting day. Who knows what tomorrow, er, today will bring?
Maybe we trade with the Brewers or Rockies for a LF? Or with the White Sox for a pitcher? Or sign Mike Gonzalez for the pen and trade Marte?
We’ll see what happens, but I’m confident that Cashman will do his best. He’s not perfect, and he can miscalculate, like in my opinion he did today with Matsui, but that’s life. We’ll learn and adjust accordingly and he’ll strive to make the team the best he can with the budget he’s been given.
Night all.
“You seem to forget that AJ had more WS wins then CC. Its not fair to call any of AJs starts in the post season meltdowns. Not Gems but not meltdowns.”
—————————————————
Nick, did you watch game 5 of the World Series? Burnett pitched only 2 innings! Allowed 6 earned runs in those two innings and had 4 BB.
If you looks like a meltdown and smells like a meltdown…guess what….it probably is a meltdown.
G-C
Unfortunately, none of the bridge jumpers make any arguments. They just whine and complain about everything so you probably will not get an answer
CB,
Are you actually inferring that Cashman has a plan? You are going to sit there and tell me that Cashman was not just taking a nap today when all these deals went down?
Crazy talk I tell ya!
——————————————–
You sound like a bridge jumper to me.
Did you honestly not get the sarcasm from that post
Some great points being made tonight.
This thread was for the most part a logical, well balanced discussion.
Its fascinating for me to ponder Cashman’s next move or his overall plan.
No one knows but some people have wild imaginations.
Personally today kind of threw me for a loop, but I’m not at all upset by the deals.
I never thought we were in on Halladay as soon as Pettitte resigned. Logical Yankee fans know that.
Lackey doesn’t scare me, but I’m curious to see Boston’s next move. Their roster clearly isn’t finished.
Matsui troubles me. I guess Cash feels he can always get a DH. Problem is, Matsui was a DH. IF they end up signing Delgado or Thome, why not just keep Matsui?
Pitching…… Its really simple to me. Would I like another starter? Sure. But 2009 was a year we won 103 games then the WS. Wang got shelled for about 10 starts. Mitre and Gaudin were in the rotation for lengthy stints. Joba had the whole innings limit nightmare.
My point? With Joba, Hughes, Mitre, Gaudin, Aceves, and McCallister they have plenty of options to fill the 4 and 5 slots.
I’m supposed to be sleeping:
boston’s rotation -
1. Beckett
2. Lester
3. Lackey
4. Dice-K
5. Bucholz/Wakefield
I prefer Hughes & Joba, but don’t tell me that they’re an automatic over Dice-K and Bucholz/Wakefield.
All it takes is AJ or Andy getting injured, or even Hughes or Joba. And sometimes its 2 starters. I wouldn’t want to see a rotation of CC, Andy, Gaudin, Mitre, and Aceves at any point in time. That’s why I think an established FA starter is a wise investment, and why Wang should be signed if possible when/if he recovers.
You can’t have too much proven pitching. Key word – proven.
What established FA SP are out there?
# DaSaint007 December 15th, 2009 at 1:52 am
All it takes is AJ or Andy getting injured, or even Hughes or Joba. And sometimes its 2 starters. I wouldn’t want to see a rotation of CC, Andy, Gaudin, Mitre, and Aceves at any point in time. That’s why I think an established FA starter is a wise investment, and why Wang should be signed if possible when/if he recovers.
You can’t have too much proven pitching. Key word – proven.
Look at the bottom 3 of the Sox rotation. Injury prone.
Beckett is quite injury prone as well
Baseballreference.com one of the comparable players through age 24 for Melky- Johnny Damon.
Wakefield will be in the hospital before the All star break. Dice-k’s arm is basically falling off after his workload in Japan, and Clay Bucholz only pitches good against KC, Toronto, and Baltimore.
Lackey has bad numbers at Fenway and he even said he hates pitching in that park, plus he has always pitched on the West Coast and has never faced a rivalry as intense as Yankees vs. Red Sox.
The Sox are good but not that good.
If Cashman really doesn’t believe that one of Hughes or Joba can be an effective starter (which I seriously doubt he does) then he should just go ahead and put Aceves in the rotation. Is there anyone here that would rather see Justin Duscherer in the rotation over Aceves? Anyone?
Aceves would be a good fourth starter on a championship level team, and I think he gets an opportunity to pitch significant innings out of the rotation this year at some point. Somehow a sketchy September clouded what was a remarkable season from him out of long, yet high leverage relief outings- nothing in his performance or scouting report indicates that he wouldn’t be a reliable starting pitcher.
“All it takes is AJ or Andy getting injured, or even Hughes or Joba. And sometimes its 2 starters. I wouldn’t want to see a rotation of CC, Andy, Gaudin, Mitre, and Aceves at any point in time. That’s why I think an established FA starter is a wise investment, and why Wang should be signed if possible when/if he recovers.
You can’t have too much proven pitching. Key word – proven.”
Your argument holds no water. Your rotation implies that AJ, Hughes, and Joba are all on the DL at the same time. I think any team with 3 starters on the DL at the same time is gonng to be in bad shape. What would the Sox rotation be with Beckett, Dice K, and Buccholz on the DL at the same time?
Or any other team losing 3 starters?
I hopes the Yankees sign Ben Sheets, Erik Bedard or Jarrod Washburn to finish the rotation. With Holiday staying a Card and Bay going to Queens I think Ca$hman should give Vladimir Guerrero a 1 year deal. I know he can hardly play the field but as a 1 year deal he’d be a great #5 hitter and make the most impact of the remaining possibilities IMO.
Jeter-SS
Granderson-CF
Teixeira-1B
Arod-3B
Vlad-DH
Posada-C
Cano-2B
Swisher-RF
Melky-LF
Also Beckett will have his off year breakdown because every other year he has some minor injury that ruins his performance. Look at his performance over the past few years: 2006 Injuries and so so performance, 2007 Cy young type year, 2008 Injuries and a horrible postseason, 2009 Better year with a minor injury, 2010 ?
Beckett is pitching for his next meal in 2010…I do expect him to be a factor …..It was my belief that the first area of concern was the outfield ( centerfield to be ezact )…Granderson is an outstanding pickup as he will become an even better player in that lineup and in that Stadium…..The next concern was Matsui and the 5 hole….Bullpen has lost Hughes, Coke, and Bruney…..Going forward to 2010 someone has to become a good and reliable # 4 starter, as this October played right into the club’s strength and avoided exposing the rotations weakness……The # 5 hitter is the most pressing concern for me right now….The best DH /PH in baseball just walked away for 6.5 million dollars……Should be interesting what rabbit Cashman pulls out of his hat….The Matsui signing was so fast and so unexpected as the press out here in So.Cal. never really indicated that Mats was coming west
Just watching the late local sports here in Orange County, and Matsui is being recieved extremely well…..I’m still taken back with his sudden signing….A very busy day in the Hot Stove season
Oh my god, it’s sinking in… today we lost Matsui, Halladay, Lackey, Cameron, Lee, the Drabek lad… all gone from our 2010 plans.
Black Monday… December 14… a date that will live in Yankee infamy????
Someday the true story of our winter’s discontent will be told… “While Cashman Slept”
Nick in SF…..The Halo fan / blog sites are flooded with praise for the soon to be Ex- NY Yankee and future Angel……They are most impressed with his body of work in the postseason, as it’s not just some small sample….The other source of amazement is how well he hits in the AL Western Division stadiums, to go along with Fenway and of course hid former Stadium of employeement Yankee Stadium……He’ll hit.285, hit 25 hr’s, drive in 90-100 hitting in between Abreu , Hunter and Morales…….Still stunned on his quick departure, did Cashman ever really know that Mats was gone ?????
Lee is only making 9mm next season. Because Philly felt Lee wasn’t going to sign after the 2010 season. Lee is looking for CC money in free agency. Something Philly’s budget couldn’t handle. By getting Lee they get an ACE that stays through 2015.
Pat M, I’m too stunned to go home… off for a nightcap at my local.
No longer will Anthopoulos be relevant. He’s had his 15 min.
That’s a good thing. The other good thing is they’ll probably be 30 game behind for awhile.
The Yankees don’t really need to make so many moves. It’s not like last season where we HAD to obtain Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira.
1. While it would have been amazing to see Roy Halladay in pinstripes, him going to Philly was the next best thing. He’s finally out of our division, we don’t have to face him during the regular season, and he’s been a giant thorne in our side.
2. Mike Cameron is everything Brian Cashman has been preaching against. The idea is to get younger. While Cameron’s defense could have been very valuable, our outfield as it stands was better then it was last season.
3. Frankly, John Lackey doesn’t scare me. Yes, he adds depth to Boston’s pitching but we can beat Lackey. That rotation also becomes a little more injury prone…Beckett, Lackey, Dice-K, Wakefield are no strangers to the DL.
4. Cashman knows what he’s doing. You have no clue if he’s talking to another team about acquiring a starting pitcher or a left fielder. Relax. We’re World Champions. We will compete in 2010.
Well Anthony Murillo, just knowing all that I’m quite certain that I’ll sleep real well…….Maybe by the time I wake, you’ll have a # 5 hitter for us….Someon who hits close to .300, drills close to 30 hr’s and drives in 100 rbi’s…..And will ask for 6.5 million dollars……If you find him let us know, as there is one guy who just signed up in Anaheim…….Oh by the way he hit .312 lifetime in the Postseason during those 52 playoff games……Yeah, I’m certain there’s another guy just like him……
Does Mitch Williams know that CC and Johan are lefties? Everytime he talks about Jon Lester he says he’s the best lefty in baseball. What is he missing?
I don’t know why anyone is upset/shocked that Matsui signed elsewhere. It was pretty clear that 2009 would likely be the last of his Yankee years.
Guy was a tremendous Yankee. Won 2 AL Championships with us, won one World Series with us…hell, he was the World Series MVP. A class act and a true clutch hitter…
But again, I’ll have faith that Cashman has something up his sleeve. Let’s wait until the off-season is over with before we bash or even praise what Cashman has/will do.
The Yanks really blew it with Matsui. It’s reported the Angels will get him for $6.5 mil. Wow. Cash couldn’t offer $7 mil, for Matsui? I think maybe he is taking his younger/more athletic thing a little too far. It’s not like Melky/Granderson/Swisher need much rest. And Damon can’t play LF well anyway.
And you can forget about Holliday, the Cards are throwing a blank check at him.
Now what, Cashman?
I have to say – the Halladay trade worked out as well as possible for the Yankees. He’s out of their division, not playing for Boston or Anaheim, and the Phillies are really not that better today than they were yesterday (indeed, I see it as a wash). Lee in Seattle is a little scary when teamed with Felix, but they don’t have a lot after those two.
steveoh wrote: “And you can forget about Holliday, the Cards are throwing a blank check at him.”
The $16m per season figure that I saw doesn’t sound like a blank check, but the possibility of 8 seasons would put the Yankees out of the picture. I could see then doing a large contract, like $90m for 5 seasons or something like that, but not an 8 year deal. If that is correct, he’ll be in St Louis.
For people asking why we need another pitcher…
The Yankees should not go into the season relying on basically two rookies (I know, not technically). Neither has pitched a full season, nor consistently well as a starter.
I agree, they need another veteran pitcher, but who? Lowe? I had hoped that they would retain Wang as an option.
With Lackey getting a large 5 year deal, I’m happy that the Yankees didn’t saddle themselves with that deal. There may be nice options next year. I’d love to get Lee if he doesn’t sign an extension.
It just gets worse for us…now the Royals have offered Holliday a 17-year, $61M contract…we can’t beat that length…
Yo Nick – that nightcap must’ve been one of those huge hourglass-shaped Pat O’Brien hurricanes…
Love reading the panic on good olde LoHud.
Jeez Matsui is a huge loss….Posada batting 5th behind Arod doesnt cut it
Arod always hit well with Matsui protecting him
Sad to see Godzilla go.class yankee
I really, really wish that certain Yankee fans can refrain from calling Yankee players names like Phlop and Joba the drunk. Phil had a decent season and can you effing prove that Joba is a drunk. Where the heck is your loyalty to players who wear the pinstripes. Go away!
I am extremely distressed to see that Matsui was traded. But as one poster said — he may play better in the warm climate.
Best of luck to Hidecki Matsui, the 2009 WS, Yankee MVP. Man, can that guy hit. He was good protection behind A-Rod
WE All have to take a deep breath !
the Red Sox were eventually going to sign somebody. Lackey was a good move. ( even though the price was sky high ) but Mike Cameron is 37 and really isn’t that good.
Cashman isn’t done and he’ll stick to his game plan !
G-C: Aceves had double digit wins in 2009 because he was pitching behind Joba during the innings limit. Most of the time Joba had a lead and Aceves had to preserve it to win. Win-Win situation IMO. Why he faltered in September is anyone’s guess.
I am glad that Matsui will collect a WS ring.
Williams must’ve forgot about Cliff Lee too.
rumor has it that St Louis is offering Holliday 8 years 130 million.
Wow 8 years !!
I don’t think anyone upgraded near as much as the Yanks were downgraded by losing Sui.
The only thing I don’t understand is the timing of the Matsui thing.
What was the rush on his part? To get $6.5 million and play LF every so often? That offer wasn’t exactly going away.
If he wanted the Yankees so badly, he would have waited, and likely would have, for $7-8 million x 1.
Something else is up here.
The Yankees won’t go 8 years but there is a good chance they go higher than 16M per. If the Yankees offered 5 or 6 years at 20M per I’d be interested to see if he chooses the years or money.
Also the Yankees have contacted Bays people. Hollidays a much better player (defender anyway) but maybe the yanks think they can get bay and sheets for what Holliday would cost.
I’ll answer my own question with a bit of speculation.
There was really little other market for Matsui amongst contenders. Who else could the Angels have gotten instead of Matsui? Damon.
Therefore my bet is that Arn Tellum thought that the Yankees were making a play for Holliday, and that Damon would be available to the Angels, making Matsui the odd man out.
Possible? Let the next 24-48 hours decide. If Holliday goes to the Cards, then that calculation is wrong, and Matsui may have made a mistake.
Pittsburg, I just can’t imagine why cashman would have let matsui go for a one year deal at that price unless they have other plans. however maybe matsui just didn’t want to wait ..
i guess it is now time to see if joba and hughes are ready to pitch as starters. If they are good….then the lackey signing means nothing….if they are a bust then lackey makes a big difference because boston did get better with him.
Here’s what I think about Boston. Of they are able to trade for Adrian Gonzalez and sign an upgrade at 3B them they have significantly improved their team this offseason.. However, if they aren’t able to do those things then they have just added to an area that’s their strength and actually worsened offensively.
The sox have a great rotation but they are going to struggle to score runs with there current lineup.
I was dreading turning on the TV this morning, or getting on the internet; because of all the stories I knew I would see about Boston, Seattle, and Philly trampling on the smaller teams and trying to buy their championships. Amazingly, I haven’t seen a single story. Maybe it is too early, I’ll have to keep looking, I know they’re out there somewhere…
blake,
I have to think Cashman felt that Matsui gave his last great effort last season. I disagree, but he knows more than we do…I hope he does, anyway.
I am sad to see Matsui go, but not very surprised. Cashman has made a point of saying he didn’t want a DH. Maybe this makes Damon more likely,as primarily a DH who can also play LF.
Halladay going to the Phillies isn’t such a bad thing, at least he is out of the AL, and the red sox didn’t get him. This gives the Yankees a shot at Lee next year.
The Cards need to make an honest effort to get Holliday or they will likely lose Pujols, who wants to play for a contender.
I think Cashman is in a good place right now. He’s in position to get the best position player on the free agent market and still add another pitcher like a Sheets. Cashman let Matsui go because he didn’t want him and people need to accept that fact. Why? We might see that reason next year when Matsui goes on the DL for the Angels.
ha ha Mark you are funny
I did hear the guys (don’t remember who) on the MLB channel saying that Boston was a high revenue team, and had to invest in some players.
I hope the Ms do well this year, I think they will give the Angels a run for their money.
“Halladay going to the Phillies isn’t such a bad thing, at least he is out of the AL, and the red sox didn’t get him. This gives the Yankees a shot at Lee next year.”
I could see that scenario playing out.
“Halladay going to the Phillies isn’t such a bad thing, at least he is out of the AL, and the red sox didn’t get him. This gives the Yankees a shot at Lee next year.”
I could see that scenario playing out.
Mark, I was a pretty heavy supporter of bringing matsui back, at least vs Damon. I thought he was a perfect fit, short term, cheap, and a productive bat to hit behind arod. Maybe cashman thought he is done, hopefully he has a backup plan.
If the Yankees dont make any sort of significant addition other than Granderson between now and ST and bring (aside from bringing in small pieces to help fill out the roster – like adding a non-tender or two, for example), I still would not worry too much. We still have one heck of a team.
Besides, by not making a huge trade that cost them top prospects or Hughes/Joba and by not getting out the checkbook for another big name FA, the Yankees will now have the flexibility both financially and player-wise to make an impact deal near the trade-deadline next July, if need be. No one really knows for sure what teams will be looking to dump payroll and who might be available. For all we know, the Tigers might be in complete “sell mode” by then and offer Justin Verlander in the right deal.
Crawdaddy, I agree that cashman is in position to so those things. However, I can’t calulate a way where the Yankees can sign Holliday and another pitcher and still lower the payroll. Maybe I’m wrong…
blake,
Me too, Matsui was option 1, IMO. If I was GM, he would have been signed 2 weeks ago. Maybe that would have been a mistake, who knows.
But, I do think back to around June or July, and I was thinking that the Yankees might need to try to unload Matsui because he was a drag on the lineup. At that point, it was certain he wouldn’t be back. He proved a lot of us wrong by having a great 2nd half/PS, but Cash must figure that he would be more likely to be that 1st half guy from here on.
According to Mlbtraderumors the Yankees have contacted Bay’s people. The cards have made it clear that they are serious about holliday and apparently have already made a strong offer to him (possibly 8 Yrs at 16m per)
The Yankees will probably have to go 20M per year to offset the yrs of that offer to get Holliday and he still might choose the security of an eight year deal.
“Crawdaddy, I agree that cashman is in position to so those things. However, I can’t calulate a way where the Yankees can sign Holliday and another pitcher and still lower the payroll. Maybe I’m wrong…”
I think the lowering of the payroll is a red herring thrown out by the Yankee Brass.
Yanks Contact Bay
http://www.bostonherald.com/sp.....ition=also
Although I really, I do mean REALLY hate to see Matsui go, the move makes sense. Matsui is aging, he can’t play outfield, his knees are finished. Knowing Posada’s condition, he could play DH at least once per week next year, and have a few others rotate for a day off. With someone like Damon as DH or another outfielder, we have more options. I’m very happy that Matsui managed to play as well as he during the playoffs and get his MVP, and world series ring.
Ok, so Halladay is out of the division. So what? That helps other teams besides the Yankees………..
I see the usual idiots are back……very nice.
I don’t think Cashman wanted Matsui back. I truly believe the Yanks want to keep the DH spot open to rest Arod , Jeter, Posada,
It makes sense. our core is getting a old and keeping the DH spot open allows us to keep our players fresh.
Look. Matsui had a great run. and he’ll always be a fan favorite. However he’s litterally on his last legs. I wish him nothing but the best
“I see the usual idiots are back……very nice.”
Betsy,
Jeez, good morning to you too.
Prediction – Matsui will not have a solid healthy year. Let’s not forget all of the times his knee was drained (or was it knees?) in recent years just to keep him in the lineup (and that’s at DH). He had some long stretches of low productivity, and his HR total was inflated by hit left-handed swing at the New Yankees Stadium.
He’ll be a lot like Vlad in their lineup, so this is not an upgrade for them, and his knees may not hold up to give him a productive season. If he hadn’t had that dominating game in the WS, how many people would be mourning his departure?
Betsy,
You can’t see how Halladay being out of the division for the rest of his career helps the Yankees?
Were you willing to give up Joba, Montero and Hughes for Hallday? That was the price in prospects that were included in the deal.
If you were willing to give that up for him, then complain. If not, you can’t complain because that was the cost of acquiring Roy Hallday.
Aumont, D’Aunaud and Drabek are upper level, A List prospects. They aren’t even everybody included in the deal. That’s how big it was.
No sense complaining about that. Cashman was smart to walk away from that one.
Disco, while I’m glad they kept the big kids (Hughes/Joba/Montero), CAsh already said that Hal has a a strict budget that he’s not allowed to go over. Forget any big impact player – they aren’t trading for one, especially at the deadline. After last year, I’ve given up on the Yankees making any real impactful deals. No one wants to help the Yankees, no one – even if it helps their own team. They can’t ask for AJax anymore, so it will be Montero/Hughes/Joba even for a back end of the rotation starter. Nothing doing……
Sure, we’ll cross our fingers and pray that Cliff Lee becomes available. It’s silly to count on that – he’s got a whole yeare in Seattle to sign an extension. Plus, if Hughes and Joba are good, there’s no room in ther rotation.
Seriously this forum is a good place to stay away from if you don’t have the energy to deal with high illogic and misguided drama.
1. I too am really sorry to see Sui go. I wanted him back in the worst way. I am happy that he at least got his ring.
2. The Sux signings – BFD. I see we are going to have to watch the usual suspects quake through yet another season.
3. I’m happy Doc went to Philly. Good for Philly. Takes him out of the AL. If it’s true that they’re sending Lee to Seattle, for me that’s at least a head scratcher.
4. As far as I can see it (and without any trepidation) at this point our rotation is CC, AJ, Andy, Joba, and Phil. Our backup is Gaudin, with Mitre in the wings. I have always heard that the Yankees plan is to have both Joba and Phil in the rotation. Anyone else hear anything different? If that’s the case, kiddies, you certainly don’t go out and get a top-flight starter and then bench him. ONLY IF the Yankees don’t plan to use Joba or Phil as starters this season would it make sense to be searching for a 1-5 starter. Or, as some people have suggested, if the Yanks were going to use Phil or Joba as trade bait.
While I know that Yankees know infinitely more than I do about what is best for the team, I was certainly voting for keeping Phil and Joba – the youth and future of our pitching staff. If that be the case, you’re not in the market for another starter unless your intention is to put Phil and/or Joba in the pen. If they are in the starting rotation, YOU DON’T GET ANOTHER STARTER TO SIT IN THE PEN. That’s really not fair to the starter, is it?
Brian Cashman put together the team that won the world series in 2009. IMO rational fans might continue to sleep well knowing that Cashman will be helping to put together the team that will win the world series in 2010. Yes I have already called it. The man knows what he is doing. The fact that fans don’t know what will happen next is of little moment.
About Doc and other players. The craziest stuff I see here is for fans to decide they want certain players on the team and then spin out of control and lose all faith in Cashman when it doesn’t happen. If you’re smarter than Cashman at putting togther the Yankee team, submit your resume. Otherwise realize that your wishlist is just that – YOUR wishlist, based on your own musings. And if you’re someone who spun out of control all of last season, I can’t even pay attention to your musings since they were obviously misguided all of last season and nothing tells me you’ve gathered your wits any better now!
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Yankees will win it all again next season. I will happily continue to enjoy the offseason knowing that by opening day they will have all the players in place to get the job done.
in light of the Cardinals offer to Matt Holliday.
maybe the most pertinent question today is, will Albert Pujols remain in ST Louis??
I believe it’s a fair question for this reason: Companies (teams) normally don’t abruptly change their profit margin and business model. The offer to Matt Holliday is crazy. I am happy for Cardinals fans, however i have to wonder if they will also open the bank vault for Pujols.
interesting
SJ, it’s a wash – it helps the Yankees, the Sox, the Rays. It helps every team in the AL as well – that’s my point. I really don’t get why people are bringing the fact up that his leaving the division helps the Yankees as if they are the only team that will benefit.
I’m not complaining that we didn’t get Halladay. The man wanted to go to Philly – if he wanted to go to NY, he would have refused an extension or a trade altogether.
For the poster killing Anthopolous, that’s just silly. The guy did his job and did it very well. The Jays have good young pitching and a couple of very good offensive players. In a few years, they are going to be a terrific team….The division will be brutal. Hopefully the Yankees lower lever minor leaguers develop.
“Were you willing to give up Joba, Montero and Hughes for Hallday? That was the price in prospects that were included in the deal.
If you were willing to give that up for him, then complain. If not, you can’t complain because that was the cost of acquiring Roy Hallday”
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not only did the yankees not have to give up Hughes and Montero, we also get to see Doc Halladay in the national league. Sounds like a win-win to me
Let’s review the events of yesterday without hysterics:
1. Halladay to the Phillies. It gets Doc out of the division for the rest of his career. Good news for the Yankees. The cost was several A List propsects. Unless you wanted to give up Hughes, Joba AND Montero (that’s the cost of prospects going in that deal), you have nothing to complain about.
We also found out Cliff Lee wants to get PAID. Meaning, he’s a one year rental for the Mariners. They aren’t paying Lee AND Felix. The Yankees will be all over Lee in free agency next off-season.
2. Lackey and Cameron to the Red Sox. Really, this is what got the kiddies on here out of control yesterday? Mike Cameron is a nice, complimentary player who strikes out a ton. He’s not as good a hitter as Jason Bay, whom he is replacing. That’s not a division changing move for the Red Sox.
Neither is John Lackey. Lackey has had shoulder and back injuries the last 3 years. They don’t just magically go away. He also hates pitching in Fenway Park and the AL East is a far cry from the AL West.
Every year, somebody gets overpaid in free agency. This year, its John Lackey.
3. Matsui going to the Angels. I said this was most likely to happen a month ago. Fact is, LF and another starting pitcher are the priorities for the Yankees right now. They felt (correctly) that if they tied up 6-7 million on a DH right now, it would negatively impact their efforts to get a LF and another starter.
Conversely, Matsui felt (correctly) that if he didn’t take that offer now, it won’t be there once the Yankees filled their needs.
You hate to lose him but, even the most hysterical, sky is falling Yankee fan, has to agree LF and another starter are greater priorities right now than a DH.
Was it the right call? One can’t say until ALL of the Yankees off-season moves are complete.
Craw, give me a break – I’m not talking to you. Do you know what it’s like to come on this board and see that you have people insulting you and treating you like garbage ? If not, then you have NO idea what I face when I come on this board sometimes. Cut me just a little slack. I’m not going to sit back and take it like a wimp.
Betsy,
You are too fixated on quotes about the “budget”.
They said the same thing last year and reached out to get Tex.
They have talked to Jason Bay’s people and engaged Boras on Holliday in the last couple of days.
Does that sound like somebody on a “strict budget”?
Here’s what they won’t do.
They won’t pay superstar, stupid money for non-superstars.
That’s a pretty sound philosophy that not only won them a World Series, it got them Curtis Granderson without surrendering any of their upper tier (Joba, Hughes, Montero) prospects.
“Craw, give me a break – I’m not talking to you. Do you know what it’s like to come on this board and see that you have people insulting you and treating you like garbage ? If not, then you have NO idea what I face when I come on this board sometimes. Cut me just a little slack. I’m not going to sit back and take it like a wimp.”
Betsy,
You bring some of it on to yourself because your posts (state of the Yankees) swings from one end of the emotional spectrum to the other end depending on what transactions happen each day.
“Craw, give me a break – I’m not talking to you. Do you know what it’s like to come on this board and see that you have people insulting you and treating you like garbage ? If not, then you have NO idea what I face when I come on this board sometimes. Cut me just a little slack. I’m not going to sit back and take it like a wimp.”
Betsy,
You bring some of it on to yourself because your posts (state of the Yankees) swings from one end of the emotional spectrum to the other end depending on what transactions happen each day.
Mike, then Cashman is a stoop and I was wrong to believe in him. The rotating DH idea is an incredibly stupid one. For pete’s sake, Tex, Jeter, etc……do NOT need a day off every week or two…..or more, even. Then you have a very mediocre player in for them when they aren’t in the field. That’s terrific.
So far our bench looks like it will be Cervelli, Pena, Gardner. That’s terrible. I really would love Hinske and Hairston back, but I doubt that will happen.
SJ – the only thing I can’t agree with is another starter. To me that makes no sense. What do you do with another starter? If you go for another you are saying that someone in the current 1-5 isn’t there. If that’s the case, who is it?
If you’re talking someone who will sit around like Gaudin does and be there for spot starts, that’s another story.
SJ – I have to hand it to you on Sui. You said he wouldn’t be back and I totally insisted that he would.
Trisha,
They need another starter. Cashman knows that and that’s why he’s engaged with agents on several options.
I doubt he’s going with the 2 kids in the rotation unless he strikes out on all his other options.
Betsy,
Let’s make a deal. Let’s wait until the Yankees finish all of their of-season shopping to rip Cashman and declare every move poor.
You have to wait until everything is finished before determining what the bench and DH will be.
Just because Cashman says something publicly doesn’t mean its set in stone.
He also once said Bubba Crosby was his starting CF, if you recall.
“Mike, then Cashman is a stoop and I was wrong to believe in him. The rotating DH idea is an incredibly stupid one. For pete’s sake, Tex, Jeter, etc……do NOT need a day off every week or two…..or more, even. Then you have a very mediocre player in for them when they aren’t in the field. That’s terrific.”
Can you wait until the full roster is known first before you crap all over Cashman?
Betsy wrote “Ok, so Halladay is out of the division. So what? That helps other teams besides the Yankees………..
I see the usual idiots are back……very nice.”
How can you complain that you are being attacked when you start with stupid comments like this. Whether it helps the Yankees to have him out of the division is up for debate, but arguing that perspective hardly makes one an idiot. You need to follow the Golden Rule.
SJ, if they are planning to leave either Joba or Phil out of the starting rotation, then maybe they have decided that one or the other is not going to end up a starter. Otherwise they would certainly be impeding the progress of one or the other as a starter.
My thinking is that they are going to go with both (only because I don’t know otherwise at this point) and have Gaudin at the ready if one or the other encounters some big problem. That said, I haven’t paid big attention to hot stove so there may be some information that is out there that I just haven’t heard or read.
I’m good to go with whatever the plan is; and since the Yanks just took it all, I’m not chomping at the bit, worrying, or wringing my hands in despair, waiting on the Yankees every move. This is a nice place to be!
I read over the weekend Holliday wanted a min of 7 yrs. He wanted to not have to move his family. The contract has to have a NTC so he can be traded a few yrs down the road. It’s all about not having to uproot his family and guaranteed money and length of contract. The Cards did their homework.
I hope the Yankees don’t counter the Cards. I ALSO don’t want Bay,he never impressed me.
Halladay to the Phillies, He WILL pitch on short rest if they three-hpeat a WS berth. Lackey vs Yankees 5-7 4.66,not a threat.
Not Happy that the Yanks let Matsui go. this entire line of using the DH spot to rotate players is kind of BS. Give them a day off period if you want to rest them. Matsui was a solid hitter and for one year the Yanks should have done that. Damon is a DH anyway as his outfield play is poor. Damon was also breaking down a lot last year. Finally, the money with Matsui is a lot less because he pays for himself in Japanese following/money.
One more important note, having a DH that you can place in there without worrying about matchups will become more important because Granderson simply should not play against lefties. late in the game he will need to be pinch hit for in a big spot and you don’t want to worry about the DH spot as well.
Very poor decision by the Yanks. For a one year deal (and I bet it is reasonable), the Yanks screwed up.
Betsy, why do you want Hairston and Hinske back? Pena is a better fielder than Hairston and a better hitter from the left side as well. Hairston is a waste of a roster spot and Hinske is mediocre too. Get rid of both and get one guy who does one thing extremely well (and in this case hitting a lefty would be the right move). Yankees need specialists on their bench. Pena can field well as their specialist and has proven he can hit from teh left side so you start him to rest our guys against tough righties or Cano when a tough lefty is on the mound. With Matsui gone it would appear Miranda will be used right now and he would rest Texiera against a righty.
Trisha at her best. Agreed. Now if the offenders could take the hint and possibly not post for one whole day.
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. . . About Doc and other players. The craziest stuff I see here is for fans to decide they want certain players on the team and then spin out of control and lose all faith in Cashman when it doesn’t happen. If you’re smarter than Cashman at putting togther the Yankee team, submit your resume. Otherwise realize that your wishlist is just that – YOUR wishlist, based on your own musings. And if you’re someone who spun out of control all of last season, I can’t even pay attention to your musings since they were obviously misguided all of last season and nothing tells me you’ve gathered your wits any better now!
Every thing falling into place for yankees. Getting rid of matsui, opens up a rotation of posada and maybe swisher at DH. Yanks are stronger without those guys on the field but their bats in the line up. If they get bay or Damon in left they can ship swisher out for a back end of rotation pitcher. Move joba or hughes into other spot. Then pick up Lee or Beckett in next year’s FA market. Sound familiar to all those who had to have Santana for Hughes and Melky and whoever else they wanted?? Instead waited a year and got a much younger and healthier CC instead without giving anybody up. I would rather face halliday than either of those guys in the WS, anyway.
Godzilla will be missed. A total Class Act. Meanwhile, I was never a big fan of Jason Bay, but now I think you have to go get him.
Bay is actually a better fit because he hits lefties better (Holliday hits righties better). I think Cameron was the best fit though as he crushes lefties and would have made a great platoon and defensive OF with Gardner and Granderson for late innings. That being said, 7.75 mil a year for a righty platoon guys is a little steep; I think this is why they picked up the rule 5 player who hits lefties well and plays good defense. The Yankees MUST platoon Granderson because he sucks against lefties (I don’t think enough people realize this).
The Red Sox are a better team right now than they were last year.