Selig announces committee to review on-field issues
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 15, 2009 
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During a conference call this afternoon — it’s actually going on as I type this — commissioner Bud Selig announced the formation of a 14-person committee that will review on-field baseball issues. According to the commissioner, those issues will include scheduling, postseason format, umpires, instant replay and the pace of the game.
“There are no sacred cows,” Selig said.
The committee is made of four managers, four general managers and team presidents and four owners. Hall of Famer Frank Robinson and journalist George Will are also part of the committee.
UPDATE, 12:15 p.m.: Selig said the issues that arose during the postseason — umpires, scheduling, replay — had no impact on forming this committee. “I’ve been thinking about this for a long time,” he said.
UPDATE, 12:23 p.m.: Tony LaRussa, Jim Leyland, Joe Torre and Mike Scioscia are the four managers on the committee.
UPDATE, 12:32 p.m.: Selig said he believes this group could have an impact fairly quickly, within a year. “Hard to set a timetable,” Selig said. “But sooner than later.”
UPDATE, 12:36 p.m.: The complete committee:
Cardinals manager Tony LaRussa
Dodgers manager Joe Torre
Angels manager Mike Scioscia
Tigers manager Jim Leyland
Braves president John Schuerholz
Orioles president of baseball operations Andy MacPhail
Former Twins general manager Terry Ryan
Indians general manager Mark Shapiro
Mariners COO Chuck Armstrong
Blue Jays CEO Paul Beeston
Cardinals owner Bill Dewitt
Phillies owner Dave Montgomery
Hall of Famer Frank Robinson
Journalist George Will
For a fanbase with unreasonably high standards, some of these moves I’m hearing are of the nickel-and-dime variety.
It wreaks of desperation.
I want 1 big move for the offense (to replace Matsui’s production) and 1 for the rotation (to replace the original version of Wang).
Leave the small stuff for the bullpen and bench.
I’d love to see the unbalanced schedule go away and interleague play shortened.
Plus, MLB needs to open its own umpire training school and fund it properly (along with fair payment for minor league umps). It’s such a joke that this process is separate from the league.
oooh a committee… unless they announce that we are importing umps from japan, or the umps we have start taking their job seriously, this will never get better.
bring on the laser strikezones and birds’eye umpire!
“There are no sacred cows,” Selig said.
“Except for myself” Selig thought to himself.
“Vlad isn’t done as a hitter. He’s done as an everyday OF. Just as Matsui is.”
Did you see Vlad during the ALCS? Pitches he used to crush he either missed completely or hit into a grounder. He’s no one I want in pinstripes, even for a one year cheap deal. Plus, the thought of watching both he and Cano hack away at everything will be more than I can stand.
I don’t think Lackey was ever on Cashman’s radar. And realistically, Halladay was probably a pipdream. Based on the stuff that has come out, Toronto asked us for an unreasonable package.
So right off the bat, Cashman’s eyes had to have been on Sheets. I don’t see yesterday’s events changing that considering I don’t think Cash considered either Doc or Lackey as a realistic option.
And if not Sheets, then who? Cahsman has stressed pitching in every interview he has done this off-season, but where is the pitching coming from if it isn’t Sheets?
How loaded us is this committee with Red Sox people?
Bronx Jeers
December 15th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
“There are no sacred cows,” Selig said.
“Except for myself” Selig thought to himself.
******************
LOL
Ken_Rosenthal Source: #Yankees “very interested” in Sheets, but believe he is in no rush to sign.
6 minutes ago from web
___
no way. yankees interested in a starter?
rosenthal should get an emmy.
Vlad hit a game-tying HR off Andy Pettitte in Game 3 in the 7th.
And hit a game-tying 2-RBI single off Hughes in Game 5 after we had taken the lead in the 7th.
Ken_Rosenthal Source: #Yankees “very interested” in Sheets, but believe he is in no rush to sign.
——————–
Well considering he is our only option, I guess we can afford to wait. Does he want to come to NY though?
Repost:
“8 year offer from the cards was really unexpected. Yanks willing to go 6.”
Is it really an 8 year offer?
That’s not what Joe Strauss’s article said. The wording was:
“the deal is believed worth around $15 million-$16 million a season for up to eight years, ”
The key words there are “for up to…”
That is very different from an 8 year/128M offer. It sounds like there is probably at least 1 (perhaps two?) option years.
In addition it’s unclear how much the deal is backloaded.
As such the net present value of the deal in real dollars may be well short of $128M.
That leak clearly came from the Cards – not Boras. Boras wouldn’t leak to joe strauss.
And it’s worth asking why the Cards would leak this now? It sounds like their offer may have been on the table for a while and they are leaking this now to prevent Boras from trying to shop the offer as a “mystery team” deal.
I also wonder if they would leak the offer if it wasn’t close to their best offer.
Sounds like the cards want Holliday to make a decision sooner rather than later.
From the last thread:
==========================================================
the red sox panicked. lackey is not burnett. plain and simple, he’s an injury risk and does not pitch well in fenway.
cameron is a nice defensive player, but he strikes out way too much. hit bat is no where near bay’s.
they still have to get a 3b, beltre will not be cheap.
——————————————————
It does my heart good to see the Red Sox loading up on this year’s free agent class. The truth of the matter is that this year’s free agent class is mediocre compared with next year’s free agent class. Money wasted this year on multi-year contracts is money that can’t be invested in next year’s FA’s.
I am hoping that the Yankees don’t spend too much money this year on free agents. Not only would they have the money next year, they would have some money available at the trade deadline. This past season, the Yankees were not able to make a big splash at the trade deadline because they had ‘blown their wad’ in December. However, if they have some ready cash (and a few prospects) at the trade deadline in July 2010 they could pick up one or two high profile “rentals”. Its common for teams who have dropped out of contention to make potential FA’s available at the trade deadline as “rentals”. It would be nice if we could pick up a Huston Street if the Rockies drop outof contention…or a Carl crawford if the Rays drop out of contention.
Brett,
We have to believe that Cashman sees the holes we have on the team and address them. I highly doubt we go to ST with this roster, with no DH, LF, and needing another starter.
We’re going to sign someone… Damon, Vlad, someone. Hoping for Holliday, but not expecting it.
If I’m Sheets, I want no part of the AL East and NY.
I go to a team in the NL like the Cubs and sign a 1 yr deal and make myself marketable for the FA market next year. Why would I want to risk getting lit up in the AL East when I want to go out on the market next year?
CB,
I agree with you about the contract, leak and Boras.
I wouldn’t count the Yankees out with Holliday.
Damn even Posada on the WFAN wants another starter ! ..
CB,
Agreed. The fact that the Cards likely leaked their proposal was to lure other suitors to counter or fold. It sounds like they’re nearing the end of the line in negotiations with Matt Holliday. Should get interesting.
“rosenthal should get an emmy.”
He was mocked in some circles here when it was he who suggested that Seattle would be a third party in a Halladay deal. He ended up right on the money.
“Tony LaRussa, Jim Leyland, Joe Torre and Mike Scioscia are the four managers on the committee.”
I think this committee is a bunch of PR crap.
I saw Vlad in the ALCS. I saw him kill the Yankees on two different occasions.
I also saw him hurt the Yankees during the regular season, despite playing with a bad hamstring all season.
If he is still on the market after the Yankees fill their needs at LF and SP, I bet Cashman looks at him as a DH option because the man can still hit and his hamstring is now 100%.
You put Vlad in this lineup between Arod and Posada or Granderson, and you have some thump.
Pretty good list of managers.
The Yanks loved Sheets last year until they looked at their medicals….I’m not sure why Sheets wants to wait it out ($$$ I guess), but if he can wait, so can the Yankees….
I’m not sure I want Damon back anymore. He finished the season badly and I’m not sure how much he has left.
Vlad? Maybe on a 1 year deal, but even if the Yanks did that, I would be lining up contingency plans as I’m not very confident in him. I always had a hard time watching him swing – I always thought he was going to throw his back out. The thing is, if the Angels didn’t want him back, they must know something – it’s the same question people were asking about Lackey.
Maybe Alex should have the surgery now and be done with it…..then we wouldn’t have to worry about him. I’m not worried about Jeter aging…..but the point is still a good one about an aging offense. This is why Cash is trying to get younger….but we really don’t have any options in our farm system. Whatever position prospects we have (besides Montero) are in the lower minors and don’t sound all that promising.
I can’t believe the Yankees would have traded Montero – I don’t believe it and I hope it’s not true. I would have traded Joba first.
Good for Posada… put a little pressure on management to fix the team rather than watching the Sox get everyone and improve their team while we go backwards….
“If I’m Sheets, I want no part of the AL East and NY.”
This – as much as money on a one year deal – is probably the biggest barrier to Sheets signing.
Coming off an injury, the “smart” move for Sheets from a long term financial perspective would be to go pitch in the NL, particularly the NL west.
It’s unlikely that any team is going to given Sheets more than a one year deal. As such, he’s singing for his supper from day one.
The AL East isn’t the best division to try to do that in.
This same issue applies to wang – but even more so.
Vlad’s violent swing has caught up with him.
“Damn even Posada on the WFAN wants another starter ! .”
He’s not shy about saying such things. It was he who wanted Santana a couple years back.
CB
December 15th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
“If I’m Sheets, I want no part of the AL East and NY.”
This – as much as money on a one year deal – is probably the biggest barrier to Sheets signing.
Coming off an injury, the “smart” move for Sheets from a long term financial perspective would be to go pitch in the NL, particularly the NL west.
It’s unlikely that any team is going to given Sheets more than a one year deal. As such, he’s singing for his supper from day one.
The AL East isn’t the best division to try to do that in.
This same issue applies to wang – but even more so.
—
So, cross out Sheets. Makes sense.
Yanks have loved Sheets for years. They used to try to trade for him fairly often.
“Vlad hit a game-tying HR off Andy Pettitte in Game 3 in the 7th.
And hit a game-tying 2-RBI single off Hughes in Game 5 after we had taken the lead in the 7th.”
Proof that lightning can strike every now and then.
Definitely agree on the “up to 8 years” leak on Holliday.
That means, there are option years involved.
In other words, its not an 8 year deal.
Nobody is questioning whether the Yankees need another starter. Cashman himself has said as much.
I think its going to be Sheets. I also think the Yankees told Casey Close (his agent, whom the Yankees have a great relationship with) to sit tight until they settle LF.
Once they do (and I still think it will be Damon before Christmas), I think they put the full court press for Sheets.
People did say that Cashman has a plan A,B,C,D,E,F,G.
Well plan A (Halladay), C (Matsui), D (Cameron), E (Lackey) are gone.
Plan B is probably Damon, play F is probably Holliday.
The backup for Vlad is Juan Miranda.
Al
December 15th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Good for Posada… put a little pressure on management to fix the team rather than watching the Sox get everyone and improve their team while we go backwards….
**************
Jorgie always gives his opinion on what he thinks they should do. I believe last week he was saying that he doesn’t like the “revolving DH” idea and how he wanted Damon and Matsui back.
Andy Pettitte was on Kay’s show and lobbied for another starter as well (well, he said if Cash could get another starter, that would be great)
The players want to win now… and putting 2 kids in the rotation doesn’t give them the best chance to do that.
Damon’s legs are gone.
Why not Holliday for LF and Damon as DH/LF…and maybe Duscherer or another starter?
Erin, I heard that too.
Jorge is right… the rotating DH idea is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. And we do need another starter.
Hope Cash is listening to his team leader and recognizes that the players don’t want to cut corners. They want to repeat.
The great offense- defense debate continues to rage here today.
Some say fix the offense. It’s not good enough.
Some (like myself) have argued for more pitching depth.
The the dangers that exist within the offense due to age
do not only exist within the the offense. They exist, perhaps to a lesser extent, within the rotation as well.
Does Pettite repeat his great performance from last year ? Can AJ stay healthy.
Other risks, not age related,
exist as well,i.e. Joba/Hughes.
The best option would be to try to mitigate the risk in both areas. Can Cash do this ? Will he have the right opportunity and budget ? Perhaps. But maybe not. No one can be certain of this but Cash and his advisors. Even Cash may not know if the right player/price opportunity will present itself. So he waits for now ready to act. And we do too.
If he is forced to choose between on or the other of the above (which i hope he wont be) who knows what he would do. Wouldn’t it depend on the players involved and relative prices.
Here’s to hoping he can do both. I am not too worried about the who. I have confidence in him and his team to make the best decisions possible under his operating constraints.
Off topic but has anyone read the Mets blog from the Lohud? Its a ghost town. The most hillarious post is that the Mets are lowering their ticket prices.
Because once you’ve added Holliday, you’ve replaced Damon and Matsui with Granderson and Holliday. There’s no need to spend more money on offense after Holliday.
Torro,
You are exactly right. Unless Sheets can get a multi-year deal from us, it makes no sense for him to go to the AL East on a 1 yr deal.
Unless he wants to win that badly that he risks forgoing a big payday if he gets lit up…
Even forgetting competition… Sheets is from the South. Does he even want to live in NY?
If I were in his shoes, I would certainly stay in the NL to market myself for 2011.
Problem is, competitors don’t think that way and Sheets is a competitor.
He also knows, through his buddy CC, that winning in NY has real ($$$) value.
He would come to the Yankees as the #4 starter and be paid like a #3 or #2, depending on his incentives.
He comes to a winning team without the pressure of being one of the Top 2 guys.
He comes into a GREAT clubhouse, unlike the Cubs and some other venues.
In other words, the Yankees are a great fit for him.
Which is why is probably sitting tight right now.
Posada doesn’t need to put the “heat” on Cashman to upgrade the team.
The Red Sox aren’t signing “everybody”. Unless you include Lackey, Cameron and Scutaro, 3 guys the Yankees have no interest in, as “everybody”.
Gotta love the panic from the children on this blog.
Betsy,
Why would Alex have surgery now when he doesn’t need it?
His hip is 100%. The doctor has determined he doesn’t need a second surgery.
Unless something happens to him between now and ST, he won’t be having surgery anytime soon.
MFC
December 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Off topic but has anyone read the Mets blog from the Lohud?
*******************
I’m not surprised. If you’re a Mets fan, what is there really to talk about?
Andy Pettitte was on Kay’s show and lobbied for another starter as well (well, he said if Cash could get another starter, that would be great)
The players want to win now… and putting 2 kids in the rotation doesn’t give them the best chance to do that.
——————————————————
Hughes and Chamberlain aren’t kids anymore. They’ve been with the Yankees for parts of 3 seasons now and were contributors to last year’s World Championship. Its time to see what they can do on an everyday basis…or trade them away.
Tony LaRussa’s first idea is to bring back the bullpen car. And to turn the bullpen into a bar. And for the manager to coach the game from the bullpen.
Cashman himself has said they need another starter. Posada and Pettitte aren’t exactly breaking new ground with those statements.
John Lackey and Mike Cameron were never options for the Yankees.
Hard to say they “lost” on them when they never bid for them.
The Josh Johnson rumors from early on in the hot stove season seem to have been debunked but boy would I love for Ca$h to get him in our rotation. We could mitigate the risk of a Joba, Hughes rotation with another huge upside mid 20s arm. CC followed by JJ. Wow. It’s probably just a pipe dream but Ca$h has repeatedly stressed pitching and the biggest names are gone. Maybe he can get creative and really show his stuff. Tempered as always with an IMO.
JJ’s 2009 was to the tune of a 131 ERA+ in 209 ip with 199 k’s. Probably wouldn’t happen but I can connect some dots too. Willing to move anybody+stress on sp = JJ in the second game of the season? Stay tuned!
SJ44
December 15th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
The Red Sox aren’t signing “everybody”. Unless you include Lackey, Cameron and Scutaro, 3 guys the Yankees have no interest in, as “everybody”.
********************
LOL
Did anyone notice that, not only did the Jays trade Halladay
for prospects, but are giving the Phillies money @6mm too?
Can’t wait to see how Pujols bats against Halladay.
All Star Games just got better for the NL!
Josh Johnson is not on the market. The plan, at least for now, is for the Marlins to keep him at least through July and see what happens at that point.
When you turn down Smoak and Feliz for JJ, you are making it pretty clear he’s unavailable.
Rob NY — 2009 the Road to Redemption.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
The Josh Johnson rumors from early on in the hot stove season seem to have been debunked but boy would I love for Ca$h to get him in our rotation. We could mitigate the risk of a Joba, Hughes rotation with another huge upside mid 20s arm. CC followed by JJ. Wow. It’s probably just a pipe dream but Ca$h has repeatedly stressed pitching and the biggest names are gone. Maybe he can get creative and really show his stuff. Tempered as always with an IMO.
JJ’s 2009 was to the tune of a 131 ERA+ in 209 ip with 199 k’s. Probably wouldn’t happen but I can connect some dots too. Willing to move anybody+stress on sp = JJ in the second game of the season? Stay tuned!
—
I hope you’re right.
Furthermore, Josh Johnson’s salary is low enough to allow the Yankees to add a big hitter like Holliday as well, not to mention Aroldis Chapman as a possibility for the pen late-season.
If Cashman brings in Curtis Granderson, Josh Johnson, Matt Holliday and Aroldis Chapman? My goodness.
Squid, Rosenthal didn’t predict anything – it was an idea he had for which he had no basis to believe anything like that would happen. He’s no Nostradamus.
The Yanks pretty much handled Vlad during the ALCS……
The Mariners are giving the Philles the money. Not the Jays.
Ken Rosenthal of Fox Sports says the Yankees are very interested in free agent pitcher Ben Sheets, but the former Brewers ace is in no rush to sign anywhere.
- per mlbtraderumors
Posada is not the GM. I didn’t hear his comments, but I’m sure they were meant as knocks against Phil and Joba……I like Po, but this doesn’t help his relationships. He did the same thing when Santana was on the block. Now, I don’t think Wang was really a real ace the way a CC is, but at the time, I thought his comments were out of line. I wish Posada would keep quiet.
I’d rather get Dye than Vlad. Dye’s fielding is starting to decline as well, but he’s better than Vlad. Not sure what he still has left on the offense side, but since my first choice has signed with LAA, I don’t really have many options left.
Betsy . I think you have to come to terms that either Joba or Hughes will be in the bullpen
Sheets would be cool
If Sheets is a competitor (not sure –does he have the rep of a bulldog?), then he would take this chance. He could really make some money if he pitches well in the AL East….I hope he has that confidence. One thing I loved about AJ last year when he first signed was that he made it clear that he really preferred the challenge of the AL East, facing hitters he’s comfortable with. Obviously Sheets doesn’t have the familiarity with the AL, but he sure has the talent. I’d like to think he won’t take the easy way out.
SJ, how important is it for teams to have good relationships with agents. If a team has a bad relationship with a certain agent, will that agent try and steer his client away from that team? Vice versa – if they have a good relationship? Does it make no difference?
yes lets give vlad a contract based off of 2 hits in the playoffs. seem to be a lot of professional burger flippers in here today…
Why all the love for Vlad?
He is a free swinger and doesn’t catch up to the ball like he once did. Has had a nice career, but I don’t think he would really help us.
Why all the love for Vlad?
-
Protection for Arod
SO no one from the Yankees. The biggest draw the biggest team in baseball. That makes a ton of sense. Good going Bud, can’t wait till you retire.
No Yankee rep for Selig meetings?!
Uh oh…
Erin
December 15th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
MFC
December 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Off topic but has anyone read the Mets blog from the Lohud?
*******************
I’m not surprised. If you’re a Mets fan, what is there really to talk about?
*******
Guess What Day the Mets are Mathmatically Eliminated sounds like a hit game to me
Vlad was handled by the Yankees in the postseason?
Ask Pettitte and Hughes about that. And any player can be “handled” in the postseason (see Ryan Howard) because it is a small sample size of games.
GM’s don’t base a player’s value on small sample sizes.
SJ, I only mentioned that because we were talking about age and say, what happens if Alex ended up needing the surgery? If he’s fine now, that’s great….it’s a tribute to a damn good surgeon and to Alex’ ability to heal.
I wonder if Cameron, who is also CC’s buddy, talked to CC……..Are Sheets and CC close? Now we know that if AJ talked to Doc, it didn’t do much good…..but then again, Doc didn’t have total control of the situation and wasn’t going to turn down a trade to the Phillies (hope he likes to hit).
If the Yankees get another SP, then that means Phil is in the pen……..I prefer him to be sent to AAA. By the time this kid ever gets started as a starter, he will be close to 26 years old, with severe innings limits, and a good deal of his prime will have been wasted.
RE:
Mike RI
December 15th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Why all the love for Vlad?
-
Protection for Arod
That’s Posada’s job
CB
December 15th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
“I also wonder if they would leak the offer if it wasn’t close to their best offer.
Sounds like the cards want Holliday to make a decision sooner rather than later.”
Definitely agree. However, Jerry Crasnick is reporting that “nothing is imminent” and Boras/Holliday “are still looking for something that they’re not finding”. Perhaps more interesting, is the rumor attributed to Olney stating the Yanks “are not pursuing Holliday at all and cannot foresee a situation in which they would get involved.” Sherman also noted the Yanks would be comfortable with Melky in left and Damon at DH. Do you think the Yanks are finally starting to leak tidbits like this in an effort to get Boras to come to them about Holliday?? Isn’t that kind of how they played the Teixeira market, wait until it develops, have Boras come to them and then quickly make a firm offer? Care to share any thoughts on this?
Erica – always OPPC
December 15th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Guess What Day the Mets are Mathmatically Eliminated sounds like a hit game to me
***************
Ooooh…that does sound like a fun game.
SJ — Dont rain on my parade lol Im all for Sheets if Cash decides his medicals are alright.
I just hope that doesn’t result in Hughes back to the pen. I’m in agreement with the Betsy faction that says Phil in the ‘pen further stunts his development as an SP. Phil showed flashes of genius (that Texas game was pretty brilliant) and I think it’s time to give him another shot.
With all that in mind it would seem to be a waste of
the great effort the team went to in getting Joba his innings this year. Moving HIM to the pen would pose the same issues as it does for Hughes. Seems to me like a trade for a more dependable young pitcher (admittedly not JJ due to his unavailability ATM) headlined by Joba or Hughes would be in the best interests of the team (having another starter) and the player (getting to continue developing as a starter.
Lots of moving parts. It should be fun to see what happens.
“He’s not shy about saying such things. It was he who wanted Santana a couple years back”
————————————-
he also spoke in favor of joba in the bullpen
Protection for Arod
That’s Posada’s job
- George. It won’t be
Vlad is done.
x-mann,
i doubt holliday is even plan f or whatever.
i don’t see any scenario that brings him to NY, not do i think he should be gotten.
the yanks need financial flexibility going into next year’s FA crop.
Betsy they aren’t knocks on Joba and Hughes. One stays in the rotation the other sets up for Mo. Stop it already with the hysteria.
“Protection for Arod”
Vlad doesn’t offer any.
I’ve been writing for some time now that I don’t think the Yankees will do another 100mil contract this year. No Halladay for LF. They spent the BIG $$ on FAs last year.
This team just won the WS they don’t need much.
I think pitching should be a higher priority than LF.
I agree with the poster that said Wang needs to be replaced. The thing is, does that mean Joba or Phil goes to the pen?
Buster_ESPN Heard this: the Red Sox are looking at RHed hitting OFers, utility types, such as Xavier Nady.
5 minutes ago from web
Reply Retweet
Posada wants Joba in the bullpen because he’s tired of having Joba shake him off.
“Ooooh…that does sound like a fun game.”
Memorial Day is mine!!!!
squidward
December 15th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
“Ooooh…that does sound like a fun game.”
Memorial Day is mine!!!!
****************
OK then, I have July 4th.
rconn23, i’d say that holding the best slugger on the team to 2 hits is being handled, much like vlad was handled ALL SEASON.
he’s done. why would the angels sign matsui if vlad was worth anything?
Laura yep doesn’t want to spend 6 grueling innings having Joba shake him off, would rather deal with 1.
RE:
Mike RI
December 15th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Why all the love for Vlad?
The point is that the organization let Matsui go, a guy past his prime that can’t play the field, only to replace him with another has been. We need flexibility in the DH role.
How many yanks said in interviews how being fresh and rested was a key to their success in the playoffs. Girardi needs the flexibility in that spot to occasionally play Tex/Arod/Jeter/Posada there.
I think Vlad is done as a player. His knees are poor, he can’t run. Even Posada can carry Gardner on his back and run faster than Vlad. His bat isn’t a big threat anymore.
If the Yankees are so hot on getting a DH, though, why did they let Matsui go? He was willing to sign a one year contract. One that pretty much paid for itself at that.
Cardinals manager Tony LaRussa
Dodgers manager Joe Torre
Angels manager Mike Scioscia
Tigers manager Jim Leyland
Braves president John Schuerholz
Orioles president of baseball operations Andy MacPhail
Former Twins general manager Terry Ryan
Indians general manager Mark Shapiro
Mariners COO Chuck Armstrong
Blue Jays CEO Paul Beeston
Cardinals owner Bill Dewitt
Phillies owner Dave Montgomery
Hall of Famer Frank Robinson
Journalist George Will”
What is stoping those members from only making sure what will benefit their team gets recognized???
What happened to that “bridge” the soxs were building, they are attempting to spend like drunken sailors.
why would posada, now 2 years removed from shoulder surgery, not be able to protect arod? i seem to remember that working out quite well…
oh right, we need a HOF’er to protect a-rod, i forgot. no one can possibly get to the WS without 5 first ballot guys in their lineup. it’s never been done in the history of baseball.
We didn’t bring back Matsui because he couldn’t play the field anymore, why would we want Vlad, who’s a worse fit for NYS and also can’t play the field anymore?
“Do you think the Yanks are finally starting to leak tidbits like this in an effort to get Boras to come to them about Holliday?? Isn’t that kind of how they played the Teixeira market,…”
Yes on both counts. I think the yankees made their initial offer on getting Damon back on a reasonable deal and are now moving on.
That’s not to say they’ve closed the door on Damon. But they aren’t sitting around and waiting.
And I think what we’re seeing now is more activitiy – the leaks about Bay, the story about the yanks inquiring on Holliday, the stories about the Yankees being ok with Melky in LF, etc.
And that activitiy is related to the yankees starting the process for seeing what the market will bear for Holliday and how much he wants to play for them.
The yankees have learned how to deal with boras effectively. They know Scott needs them because they are the biggest game in town.
The biggest implication of the Cards leak are this – the Cards made Holliday the “biggest” offer in their team’s history and Holliday still hasn’t signed.
“Buster_ESPN Heard this: the Red Sox are looking at RHed hitting OFers, utility types, such as Xavier Nady.”
Beginning to think maybe Ellsbury is going to be a piece in a trade package
Abdababdaserser
December 15th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Even Posada can carry Gardner on his back and run faster than Vlad.
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Now that I’d like to see.
Cardinals throwing out the Holliday offer for 3 reasons.
1.Plays well with fan base, “We really tried to keep him see.”
2.Pujols will see they went out on a limb to get him.
3.If he goes elsewhere it’ll cost the interested team.
Boston in on Nady?
Thanx Rishi
To do list:
1. Duchscherer, Capps or MacDougal for bullpen, in that order. Duchscherer can spot-start, if needed. Capps had a bad year, but if he rebounds, would be a good set-up man for Mo. MacDougal walks too many, but has performed ok in the past.
2. Dye, Vlad, Thome, Nick Johnson, Damon or Delgado for 1-yr DH, in that order. Openings for DHs are running out, there should be a decent bat to pick up by spring training. Dye, Damon & Johnson are at least servicable in the field a few times per week.
3. Podsednik for back-up LF/CF. Better fielder, hitter & base stealer than Gardner, though only a few years younger than Damon & injury-prone. Perhaps Ryan Church for back-up LF/RF if he’s jobless during spring training.
At least they got the Managers right.
Gardenhire would be like the only other manager I think would be a real good fit for the committee.
Still, those are 4 superb baseball men.
(didn’t see the new thread, typed all this and didn’t want to waste it!)
Sam,
I just got in from being out all morning and just read your post. I would have to agree with what you’ve written.
It’s not easy to say goodbye to Matsui, though. He has been a favorite almost since the first game he played here. No one represented the Yankees better. I wish him well. I understand the Yankees’ reluctance to take on a one-dimensional player, even if that one dimension was pretty powerful.
The Mariners certainly do seem to be a team on a mission. I don’t think the Angels are even close to being the lock on that division that they’ve more or less been in the recent past. That’s good for that division.
I was happy that Halladay signed with Philly – for the reasons you cite. I was also happy that Philly traded Lee (that part did go through, right?) because Lee AND Halladay is scary. Halladay instead of Lee is almost a wash. I mean, how many more wins can Halladay have for Philly than Lee did (if you extrapolate over a full season of Lee)? The only difference would be the ERA at which they were able to win their games, and MAYBE the number of innings pitched and complete games. But actual wins? Would be reallyreallyclose.
I don’t know how anyone can accuse Cashman of being asleep on the job. He’s basically said he never takes a day off; he was on the phones seeing what was what immediately after setting his WS roster. No one is more on top of things than Cashman. Doesn’t mean all his moves will meet with favorable fan reaction, but just because you don’t like what he’s done or not done doesn’t mean he’s not working hard. Also have to keep in mind what he knows versus what we know (regarding health, performance and off-field issues) as well as his particular budget and the relative fluidity of same (or non-fluidity whichever the case may be) not only for this season but for several seasons going forward.
Holliday hasn’t signed because he went on XM radio saying the Yankees or the Mets were his first choice!!
squidward
December 15th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
“Buster_ESPN Heard this: the Red Sox are looking at RHed hitting OFers, utility types, such as Xavier Nady.”
Beginning to think maybe Ellsbury is going to be a piece in a trade package
—
Buchholz + Ellsbury could get them a big bat.
Interesting from Jon Heyman tweet yanks were not going to trade Chamberlain and Hughes.
“#yanks were willling to offer jesus montero in big package but not joba or hughes for halladay. #jays liked drabek.”
I think it’s false to say the Yankees had no interest in Cameron. They obviously like the guy as they nearly made a trade for him last year. There were also numerous reports this year saying the Yanks had interest in signing him.
That being said, lets move on. I wanted Cameron on the team but I don’t think he’s a good fit for the Red Sox. His value is in the range he brings to the CF position and it’s highly doubtful that Ellsbury is moved to the bench of LF. He will be a nice hitter for them but not really a perfect fit IMO.
As CB has been suggesting since yesterday I think the chances that the Yankees go after Holliday are going up. I think the Yanks need one or two more impact bats. I’d be very happy with Holliday and/or Nick Johnson.
teejay
December 15th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Interesting from Jon Heyman tweet yanks were not going to trade Chamberlain and Hughes.
“#yanks were willling to offer jesus montero in big package but not joba or hughes for halladay. #jays liked drabek.”
—
I think he meant to say that Cashman refused to deal Montero and Joba/Hughes in the same package.
Nady would be a nice cheap option for the yankees to resign as a bat off the bench. Especially if they want to use a rotating DH.
Looks like Boston is primed for a big move involving Ellsbury.
They also have 6 starters at the moment. Something is brewing…
Patrick,
Granderson replaces Damon and Holliday would replace Matsui.
Why would the Yankees need to spend more money on offense after replacing all the production lost while upgrading the defense in the process?
How many yanks said in interviews how being fresh and rested was a key to their success in the playoffs. Girardi needs the flexibility in that spot to occasionally play Tex/Arod/Jeter/Posada there.
______________
Seems to me, being that Alex needed to have scheduled days off last season, and had a full time DH it worked out fairly good for the Yankee having Matsui.
If there is no assigned DH, or even a DH who can play a little outfield is over selling this. If there is no DH do the math. 6 month season, 4.3 weeks a month means Jeter, Alex, Teixeira play 26 games as a DH, losing their fielding for those days for a lesser player. Posada would have to play 50 games as DH.
The real bonus of resting the players wasn’t having them DH, it was being able to give them days off when they had a big lead in the division and in the league. That is what helped. Extra days of full rest at the end of the year. The only one who got a lot of rest was Alex because of his hip.
Cameron in LF would be a waste
Ellsbury is going to be apart of some package. The Sox roster right now makes little sense. 6 starters, no 3B, still missing a big bat. They are still going to make one more big move. their roster is kind of cluttered right now.
Jsys gave away the best AL pitcher for prospects,and money.
He’s the NL problem now.
If the Phillies make postseason again,Halladay will pitch on short rest,something Lee wouldn’t do!!
You people need to take your foil hats off. Nady is coming off his second TJ surgery, and will not even be ready at the beginning of the year. Signing him, and trading Ellsbury makes the sox infinitely weaker.
Bill Lowel is there 3rd baseman. They haven’t traded him as far as I am aware.
gfd Actually they gave away their best pitcher and money for prospects.
The Yankees will sign sheets IMO. Its the obvious counter to lackey and they need another starter. I think whether or not they get Holliday depends on whether Hal will ok the added payroll. Cashman will ask, if he says yes then he will be a Yankee. If he says no then he won’t..
The team was also fresh and rested because they basically clinched the division in late August and used September as a way to rest guys.
We might not have that luxury next year and may need to play till the final weekend. Best way to avoid that? Fill our remaining holes.
Cardinals manager Tony LaRussa
Dodgers manager Joe Torre
Angels manager Mike Scioscia
Tigers manager Jim Leyland
Braves president John Schuerholz
Orioles president of baseball operations Andy MacPhail
Former Twins general manager Terry Ryan
Indians general manager Mark Shapiro
Mariners COO Chuck Armstrong
Blue Jays CEO Paul Beeston
Cardinals owner Bill Dewitt
Phillies owner Dave Montgomery
Hall of Famer Frank Robinson
Journalist George Will”
What is stoping those members from only making sure what will benefit their team gets recognized???
—–
Yes because all of those clubs have identical needs and interests. It’s all one big Anti-Yankee conspiracy.
Lord knows the Orioles. Dodgers and a Journalist all are after the same thing.
“Ellsbury is going to be apart of some package. The Sox roster right now makes little sense. 6 starters, no 3B, still missing a big bat. They are still going to make one more big move. their roster is kind of cluttered right now.”
The Nady rumor, if true, swings it that way for me too. Easy enough to envision Cameron in CF, a Nady/Hermida platoon in left with Youkilis moving to 3rd in favor of an 1B power bat that comes from a package centered around Buchholtz/Ellsbury plus.
“Halladay instead of Lee is almost a wash. I mean, how many more wins can Halladay have for Philly than Lee did”
This point keeps being made and it’s not accurate. Halladay and Lee aren’t a wash – not even close.
We usually wonder about who the “best” pitcher in baseball is. Halladay, Lincecum, CC, Santana, etc. get thrown in that mix.
But the real question isn’t who the “best” pitcher is per se – the real question is who the most valuable pitcher is.
And on that note there are two pitchers who are heads and shoulders above everyone else – Halladay and CC. And quite honestly, you can make a real argument that Halladay simply exists in his own stratosphere.
Halladay and CC are more valuable than any other pitchers in baseball because they are the only two guys who combing brilliant quality with brilliant length.
For every additional inning Halladay and CC give you, it saves your team having to live through an inning thrown by a middle reliever. That is a huge value.
Cliff Lee doesn’t even remotely approach Roy’s value in that regard.
To put this in perspective – next year Tim Lincecum – comming off back to back Cy Youngs – projects to be around 5 wins above replacement. That’s terrific. But it’s not even close to Halladay.
Halladay projects to be 7 wins above replacement. (CC projects to be around 6.5 wins above replacement.
So Halladay looks to be around 2-3 wins better next year than Cliff Lee. That is an enormous difference.
And finally there’s the post season. Going into the world series one of the yankees biggest strategic advantages was having confidence their ace could throw games 1,4, and 7 on short rest.
The phillies did not have that confidence in their ace because Lee never throws on short rest.
Going into the post season next year the Phillies can be confident that their new ace can pitch the entire post season on short rest.
There are only two pitchers in baseball who can do that. The yankees have one. The phillies now have the other.
None of our regular starters are going to see more than a few games at DH in the season. If Jeter/A-rod/Tex need 20+ games at DH then you might as well get rid of them because that is pathetic.
The roster spot for the player you’d normally have at DH needs to be filled regardless, so unless we’re going to have a 15 man bullpen we need a guy that will play at DH when no one is being rested.
That is why it made no sense to lose Matsui. I like Granderson+Matsui more than I like Damon+Granderson.
Patrick from CT
December 15th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
I’ve been writing for some time now that I don’t think the Yankees will do another 100mil contract this year. No Halladay for LF.
———————————
For the millionth time…
Halladay – Starting pitcher
Holliday – Out fielder..
Also, There is no player called Halliday or Holladay…
CB,
The fact that the Yankees are starting this activity now leads me to believe that the Cards’ “biggest” offer ever hasn’t scared them off. I presume they are willing to top $16M for Holliday. Like you said, they know how to play Boras, so maybe they’re taking this approach so that once they top the current offer, there will be no opportunity for Boras to use them as leverage & go back around shopping the offer?
Coach6423 Boston can put together a trade of Ellsburry and Buccholz and a few others and get their impact bat, such as Gonzalez.
There had been some report earlier that listed Laptops and Jacoby as being asked for in talks for Gonzalez. These moves frees the Sox up to do exactly that.
Either that or Cabrera.
I wouldn’t be shocked to hear that is what the next big deal will be.
If the Sox get Adrian Gonzalez, he’d rake in YS.
IF all rumors are true imagine if the Bosox brought in this haul:
Lackey
Cameron
Beltre
Nady
While shipping out old man lowell and potentially Ellsbury and Bucholz for someone one else (Gonzalez…I hope not)
I know that all hasn’t happened yet but wowza, that would be pretty ridiculous offseason and they all seem to be things the Sox are checking up on.
Joba and Phil both have potential as starting pitchers, which are more valuable than relievers (other than Mo). They both deserve the opportunity to start. It is a tough decision to make, because I think it will come down to one or the other. I guess ST will help sort out the options.
I would be extremely shocked if Jed Hoyer traded Adrian Gonzalez for Clay Buchholz and Jacoby Ellsbury.
There was a player named Holladay. Nothing more of him is known….
http://www.baseball-reference......001—
Mike Cameron ,25 game suspension prior to 2008 season,for failed drug test,NO THANK YOU,next!!
This from Pete Abe’s tweeter..
How in the world would Buchholz + Ellsbury be enough for Gonzalez? If it is, make the deal. But Hoyer needs more.
There was a player named Holladay. Nothing more of him is known….
http://www.baseball-reference……001—
——
Tom, I literally started chuckling in the middle of a dining hall at my school when I read that and clicked that. Hysterical find.
“You people need to take your foil hats off.”
No way! I hear so many fewer voices when it’s on.
Think about it Coach. Nady, or someone like him doesn’t replace Ellsbury. Cameron does that. A Nady-like player would serve to platoon with Hermida in left with a Buchholtz/Ellsbury plus deal going to get them a big bat. Still leaves them with issues, most notably pitching depth, but they can probably find a #6 starter type on the market.
I would be extremely shocked if Jed Hoyer traded Adrian Gonzalez for Clay Buchholz and Jacoby Ellsbury.
—–
Maybe 1 or 2 prospects thrown in with all that AL tested, young, ready made talent…I could see that happening and it SCARES THE BEJEESUS OUT OF ME
I am literally terrified of the BoSox getting Gonzalez. He could be a behemeth for them.
Blackaccord
December 15th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Patrick from CT
December 15th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
I’ve been writing for some time now that I don’t think the Yankees will do another 100mil contract this year. No Halladay for LF.
———————————
For the millionth time…
Halladay – Starting pitcher
Holliday – Out fielder..
Also, There is no player called Halliday or Holladay…
+++++++++++++++——————–++++++++++++++++++
SOoooooooooo SORRY.
No 100mil contracts was my point regardless…
Posada wasn’t ripping Hughes or Joba, Betsy.
He’s saying the same thing Cashman has said this off-season. They need another starting pitcher. Which they do.
Its important to have good relationships with agents because that’s how you build trust and gain info into what’s going on around the league.
Cashman can tell Casey Close to “sit tight” until they make other moves because he and Close have a solid professional relationship.
Doesn’t mean Sheets will sign with the Yankees. However, I bet he waits it out until the Yankees resolve their LF issue before signing with anybody.
Cashman handles Boras as well as anybody in the game. He doesn’t fall victim to the “one dumb owner/GM” mantra that has been Scott’s negotiating ploy for years.
Here’s something that some Yankee fans just have to understand…..the Yankees didn’t want Matsui back.
Like Abreu, they felt it was time to move on.
They have GREAT respect for Matsui and were not going to do anything on or off the record to embarrass him.
However, they felt the club would be better served moving on from Matsui and filling their holes in LF and SP.
After that time, if Matsui was willing to take a smaller deal, they probably would have re-visited it.
Matsui, knowing the Angels offer was time sensitive, didn’t want to want.
That’s the business of baseball folks.
Now, its time to see how the Yankees fill out the rest of their roster.
Last year at this time, Cashman let Abreu go, the Sox signed Smoltz, Baldelli, Saito and Penny, and half the folks on this blog conceded the World Series to the Red Sox.
Didn’t quite work out that way, did it?
Jerkface December 15th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
I would be extremely shocked if Jed Hoyer traded Adrian Gonzalez for Clay Buchholz and Jacoby Ellsbury.
___________
And others. Add in Lars and Kelly which given the moves they have made this off season looks to be something they would consider doing.
Laptops, Dumbsbury, are two MLB players, Anderson wouldn’t be needed by them, and Kelly is the next HOF player developed by the Sox, even though he couldn’t even decide on what he was playing till recently.
Bret the Hitman,
You’ll have to pardon me, but Holliday is not worth anything close to $16 million/year.
St. Louis is foolish if they offered him anything above 12.
The guy is overrated and while we need a DH, we don’t need to spend $140 million on one even if he can play LF.
There are short term DH options available.
Maybe 1 or 2 prospects thrown in with all that AL tested, young, ready made talent…I could see that happening and it SCARES THE BEJEESUS OUT OF ME
I am literally terrified of the BoSox getting Gonzalez. He could be a behemeth for them.
–
Why do you think Jed Hoyer would do that? Jed Hoyer knows the Red Sox system, he knows the value those prospects have internally. He isn’t going to trade his superstar 1st baseman, who is under cheap contract for the next few years, for a bunch of guys the Red Sox don’t value.
He will be demanding guys like Westmoreland and Kelly, and Theo won’t give in.
Laptops, Dumbsbury, are two MLB players, Anderson wouldn’t be needed by them, and Kelly is the next HOF player developed by the Sox, even though he couldn’t even decide on what he was playing till recently.
–
Hoyer worked for the Red Sox, he knows the prospects internal value to the Sox. He knows who was being hyped to raise value and who are the real gems. He isn’t going to be tricked by Boston into giving up Adrian Gonzalez for nothing.
Especially LARS ANDERSON? His value has dropped immensely.
CB, your comments on Halladay vs Lee are very good. Halladay and Sabathias ability to consistently go deep into games is nearly as important as the quality of their pitching. It makes a huge difference over the course of the season when your bullpen basically gets a night off every fifth game.
CB -
I don’t doubt that Halladay may have more value – complete games save the bullpen innings – and the confidence he instills is undoubtable.
But is he really 4 wins better than Lee in that division? Quality of starts I definitely give to Halladay, but quantity of wins, with that offense in that division has to be closer than what you’re saying.
I don’t recall – was Lee set up to pitch 1, 4 and 7 as well? I don’t think they were going to do that, but I think they could have, no?
And Lee does very well against the Yankees. No one does as well as Halladay has done, but Lee did more than okay, I’d say.
I’m not saying the Phillies made a mistake in getting Halladay or in being willing to give up Lee to get him. they will have Halladay for several years; apparently Lee wants to make his way to the open market (and apparenty that was ot important to halladay), so you get what you can get while you can get it, as far as the Phillies are concerned.
I was thinking Halladay could be 2, 3 wins at most above Lee for the Phillies with their offense and in that division. I just see the difference lying more so in slightly better quality starts for Halladay than Lee.
“He will be demanding guys like Westmoreland and Kelly, and Theo won’t give in.”
You mean he’ll drive the really hard bargain and hold out for the guy who played part of a season in the NY Penn League and another guy who pitched in A ball?
Nick D:
then let Boston empty anything that’s left of their farm system, and trade for Adrian Gonzalez. When John Lackey goes on on the DL the RedSox will have nothing
I understand that they can make a trade. But do you really think, Bucholtz, a 3/4 starter, and a young CF, land you a young/cost controlled, gold glove, MVP caliber 1b?
Also like I said, Nady is coming off his 2nd TJ, and is not going to be ready for opening day.
why yesterday improved yanks post-season chances
1) we all know that making the post-season is goal no.1, then you can start thinking about winning it all.
2) fact – it’s almost a given that the AL east sends 2 teams to the post season. the sox getting stronger or not means nothing to yanks PS hopes. remember, even when we missed the playoffs in 08, the AL east still sent 2 teams. our problem wasn’t boston that year.
3) the angels have taken some huge blows. texas traded their no. 1 pitcher. detroit is substantially weaker. no one in AL central seems to make serious strides.
4) 2010 will see both sox and yanks in the PS. explain to me why not.
“You mean he’ll drive the really hard bargain and hold out for the guy who played part of a season in the NY Penn League and another guy who pitched in A ball?”
———————————————–
CB: I don’t get it either. Propoganda is a powerful thing
You mean he’ll drive the really hard bargain and hold out for the guy who played part of a season in the NY Penn League and another guy who pitched in A ball?
–
I don’t think he is going to trade Gonzalez at all, but if he did I imagine it would be for players like that(both of them) and more.
Its amazing to me how quickly people forget about Holliday’s production, or lack there of, while in Oakland.
Let’s see, he went from Coors Field where he put up solid offensive numbers to Oakland where he looked lost at the plate half the time.
Then, he goes to St. Louis and starts hitting. Gee, I wonder if that has anything to do with the guy hitting behind him. Good hitters find ways to hit the ball. His numbers in Oakland weren’t atrocious, but they are not numbers that justify a massive contract such as Boras is seeking.
I’m not saying he isn’t talented or a good fielder, but the price tag is outrageous. Just my take.
Lackey, Cameron, Nady, Scutaro and Beltre.
That’s an off-season haul?
A starter who has been hurt the past 3 years and doesn’t pitch well in Fenway Park. They went off their, “We don’t give starters 5 year deals” and gave him a 5 year deal.
Cameron is a nice player for a limited, 38 year old guy. He’s not the offensive force Jason Bay is.
Scutaro is a platoon player coming off a career year. Nothing special.
Adrian Beltre is a premier defender and not a very good hitter. He won’t be coming cheap (if he comes at all) and that further ties up the Sox money-wise for next year.
Nady is coming off his second TJ Surgery and nobody knows how that will turn out.
How is that different than last years “great” Sox haul that was supposed to guarantee a World Series?
Its different in one BAD sense for the Sox.
If they sign Beltre from this group, they would have over 170 million guaranteed dollars tied up in 4 guys who aren’t all star players.
That’s a lot of coin for non-elite players.
I think the Padres would look to acquire lower level players at any rate, which means they aren’t going to have many seasons out of them to begin with.
Um, I’m not hysterical, Jen, but thanks for your advice. I’m sure I’ll seriously consider it. I already said I think Phil in the pen is a terrible idea, so yeah – I’m not happy about it. If you don’t agree, fine – there is no need to be insulting
Doreen,
“Wins” for a pitcher are a misleading stat because obviously they are more a team stat than an individual stat.
If you try to isolate what a pitchers particular contribution is, wins above replacement is probably the best way to do it (there are some limits there but of the ways to do it, it’s the most helpful).
Year in and out Halladay is by himself as far as wins above replacement for a pitcher.
And by that yardstick, through his own individual performance, he will help the phillies much more than Lee will.
And he’ll be much, much more valuable in the playoffs because of his ability to throw on short rest.
I’m not saying the trade was “good” or “bad.” I’m just commenting on Lee vs. Halladay.
Roy really is just amazing.
Erica – always OPPC
December 15th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Erin
December 15th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
MFC
December 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Off topic but has anyone read the Mets blog from the Lohud?
*******************
I’m not surprised. If you’re a Mets fan, what is there really to talk about?
*******
Guess What Day the Mets are Mathmatically Eliminated sounds like a hit game to me
************
Mathmatically eliminated August 23rd.
Realistically eliminated April 1st
CB,
I think if Cliff Lee was willing to sign an extension below market value with the Phillies, they would have never made the deal.
He didn’t want to do that, and it put all of this in motion.
In the end, its great news for the Yankees on 2 fronts:
1. It gets Doc out of the AL.
2. It puts Lee in play to sign as a FA after next season because he will be one and done in Seattle.
Why do you think Jed Hoyer would do that? Jed Hoyer knows the Red Sox system, he knows the value those prospects have internally. He isn’t going to trade his superstar 1st baseman, who is under cheap contract for the next few years, for a bunch of guys the Red Sox don’t value.
He will be demanding guys like Westmoreland and Kelly, and Theo won’t give in.
—–
Jerkface, I am not in any way saying that you are wrong here.
In fact I truly hope you are right.
It’s just the prospect of Adrian to the Sox really scares me. And it isn’t as if Theo couldn’t cave on any of those prospects.
Even Miguel Cabrera would rake on the BoSox but I’m not gunna lie, Adrian would scare me more than Miggy (and i don’t think Miggy is for sale)
CB,
How do you think signing Holliday would affect the Yankees flexibility in the future? According to the Cot’s website, the Yankees have $144.362M committed to 9 players. You add Mariano, Jeter, and Holliday and the Yankees are close to $200M with only 12 players on the roster.
“holliday is overrated”. “he’s not worth 16M dollars a year”.
Holliday isn’t Arod or pujols or Joe mauer but people on this blog amaze me when they just write him off. He’s a really good player and the type of player he is usually projects to play well as they age. Of course he’s not worth 20M a year but let me ask you this, is a coke worth $6 inside Disney world. No, but you’ll pay it when it 100 degrees and you’re thirsty. Its supply and demand, a player is worth what the market says they are. If the Yankees decide that Holliday isn’t for them then that’s fine but he is a good player and he would make the Yankees better
CB -
Just looked at the stats on both guys for this past season only. Lee had 6 CGs, Halladay 9. Lee pitched 231 innings over 34 games; Halladay 239 innings over 32 games. Lee’s ERA is higher by .43 runs. WHIP favors halladay by 0.117.
They can’t be as far apart as you’re seeming to say.
I think people are dreaming if they think Jed Hoyer and Mike McLeod (Hoyer’s RH man in SD, who also came from Boston) will accept anything less than an A List package for AD from the Red Sox, or anybody else.
Those guys are trying to establish their own careers in SD. They aren’t interested in propping up Theo.
They have no reason to trade AD for anything less than a stellar package, given his favorable contract.
Getting a bunch of Class A players, regardless of the team, isn’t great value for AD.
For all the reasons CB explained, that’s why I wanted Doc. I seriously would have considered trading Joba, but it if was only 1 of those 3, that would mean there would be several other good prospects going with him. I don’t think that would have been a good idea. Again, though – just the way CB is describing Doc, boy I wish he was ours. Oh well……
SJ, thanks for the insight on team/agent relationships. I know Cash works well with Boras – Cash is just a very shrewd guy, shrewder than people give him credit for.
Question:
Sheets at 8 mil per for 2 years and Damon for 10 mil per for 2 years OR deal Aceves, Gardner, Russo, and another prospect for Gil Meche (11 mil per for 2 years) and David DeJesus (1 year 5 mil plus an option)?
I would probably go with the second group as DeJesus and Meche are healthier options than Damon and Sheets.
“Its amazing to me how quickly people forget about Holliday’s production, or lack there of, while in Oakland.”
During Holliday’s brief two month stint in Oakland he produced at an .830 OPS level.
Last year only two LF in the AL produced at better than an .830 OPS level.
And for the rest of the year Holliday was terrific.
So even at Holliday’s vaunted worst when he was in Oakland he was still among the more productive LF in the AL.
And that’s not even taking into account how small that sample size of games was.
During that same period of time Teixeira’s overall numbers weren’t great either due to his poor start.
“You people need to take your foil hats off.”
Probably the best comment I have heard in a while and could easily be applied to the majority of trades proposed on this blog and other blogs written by former writers of this blog.
There is no way the yankees make any more blockbuster trades this winter:
A) we probably wont get chapman b/c a unproven rookie is not worth 15M+
B) Ben Sheets will suffice. We could use another pitcher but who couldnt and an inexpensive option who could be good is definatley worth the gamble but adding to payroll isnt what they are looking to do
C) Matt Holiday and/or Jason Bay are not worth the money that the yankees will have to shell out and honestly do we really need another outfielder? Last I counted we had 6 decent ones if you count Damon.
If they get Beltre, that puts an end to the Gonzalez talks.
Anyone want to recap the last 24 hours? Minus any angst of course!
A few questions:
1. Why is St Louis offering the (Cardinals) World’s Largest contract to Holliday?
2. Why are the Red Sox paying Cameron $15M over two years?
3. Is Bay looking sexy to anyone else right now?
blake,
Supply and demand? Are you kidding me? did you just compare a bottle of coke in Disneyland to a baseball player?
The point you seem to miss is that the Yankees DO NOT need Holliday. If they can’t get their offense going with Jeter, Granderson, Teixeira, ARod, Posada, and Cano, they’re hopeless.
They have guys like Swisher and Melky hitting 8 and 9.
Exactly why do we need him? Defense? He’s better than Melky, sure, but he’d also cost upwards of $15-16 million more per year.
It has nothing to do with supply and demand when you don’t need a supposedly heavy hitting LF like Matt Holliday.
SJ44
I think people are dreaming if they think Jed Hoyer and Mike McLeod (Hoyer’s RH man in SD, who also came from Boston) will accept anything less than an A List package for AD from the Red Sox, or anybody else.
Those guys are trying to establish their own careers in SD. They aren’t interested in propping up Theo.
They have no reason to trade AD for anything less than a stellar package, given his favorable contract.
Getting a bunch of Class A players, regardless of the team, isn’t great value for AD.
—–
I agree. I don’t think the Padres would accept anything less then solid value for Adrian.
I just think the Sox might consider caving on that value and that makes be a bit uneasy.
I’m not saying it will happen, i’m not crying the apocalypse for the Yankees. I’m simply saying, Adrian in a Red Sox uniform, regardless of what they give up to get him, scares me. Thats it.
Agree with most that say no way SD trades Adrian Gonzalez, the face of the franchise and under cheap contract for the next few years, unless it’s an “A” list package.
The Red Sox can’t offer that pacakage, and Hoyer, as much as anybody, knows this.
CB -
I guess we’re disagreeing about degrees of exceptional in pitchers, and I don’t argue that Roy Halladay is a cut above. I know you don’t judge a pitcher by wins solely, but I’m talking about team wins not pitcher’s wins, and I can’t see how, and I’m sounding like a broken record, Halladay nets that many more wins than Lee given that the Phillies have a tremendous offense (an AL offense in the NL). Lee may cost the bullpen an extra few innings over the course of the season, but we’re not talking a 6 inning pitcher here. He’s capable of throwing CGs himself and pitches close to 7 innings each start.
Now, I don’t doubt that Halladay will never be a question mark to pitch 3 times in a 7 games series and do it well. That’s pretty much a sure thing – like CC.
“Again, though – just the way CB is describing Doc, boy I wish he was ours. ”
For clarification – as amazing as I think Doc is – I would not have traded for him if it required trading Montero, Hughes or Joba, never mind 2 of the 3.
The yankees have CC. That’s why they didn’t need to unload the bank for Doc.
The yankees need another quality pitcher. They don’t need Doc if he was going to cost that much in terms of talent and money.
Newsday’s Ken Davidoff doesn’t expect the Yankees to commit to another nine-figure salary and sign Matt Holliday, especially since they need pitching.
MLBTR
As things stand now, the Yanks aren’t as good as the team that won the World Series, and the Red Sox are better than they were at the end of the season.
The Yanks still need to make moves, which makes me nervous. What if they don’t get Ben Sheets? What if Damon uses his leverage to insist on a three year deal?
No answers here, for now. Like I said I’m nervous.
Shouldn’t a committee reviewing on-field issues have a current player on it to get their perspective and input?
Mad prince, they don’t NEED anybody. They could go into the season right now and compete for a playoff spot but when you can improve at a position the Yankees have been weak at for years then its something you have to consider. Plus protection for Arod would be nice.
cb, holliday was in OAK for 4 months… and just for comparison… damon had a better OPS through the same date (7/23). i think holliday should stay in the NL.
CB,
Holliday is still not worth the asking price.
End of story.
Wave your hat, I’m not sure Boston is better.. So far they have strenghtened a strength by adding lackey and weakened a weakness by letting Bay go. I don’t see that as better unless they make a move for a bat
who is johnny damon bringing with him to monday night raw next week?
Wave,
Unless Damon has a 3 year offer from somebody, which he doesn’t, he has no place to go but take a 2 yr offer (which he will get) from somebody.
All things being equal, I think he ends up back in NY with a 2 yr offer.
If Mike Cameron and Bobby Abreu can get 2 years, Johnny Damon certainly can.
“Mad prince, they don’t NEED anybody. They could go into the season right now and compete for a playoff spot but when you can improve at a position the Yankees have been weak at for years then its something you have to consider. Plus protection for Arod would be nice.”
They can be weaker at one position than another. They’ve been weak at CF since Bernie Williams slowed down like 8 years ago, yet they’ve managed well enough out there. Now they have Granderson. Swisher can play RF. Melky can play LF.
They have plenty of solid bats around A-Rod in Teix, Posada, and Cano (who I would assume will make even more strides this season). I think a lot of people fail to realize that Cano is still young and is going into his prime. Shouldn’t be too long before he is ready to step into the 5 hole.
Maybe its me, but I’d much rather invest that $16 million in other needs, particularly pitching.
“They can’t be as far apart as you’re seeming to say.”
Let me clarify – Lee was terrific last year. And I’m not knocking him.
But the differences you described are large ones.
Lee’s ERA was as you said .43 runs higher than Roy’s. Let’s look at that number in a different way with some more context.
Last year Cliff Lee’s ERA was 15% higher than Halladay’s. 15% is an enormous difference.
In addition there is a 5% difference in performance when pitcher’s change leagues. So for the same of estimates we could say that Halladay’s NL corrected ERA (assuming he spent as much time in the NL as Lee) would be closer to 2.70. And on top of that, before Lee went to the NL east he pitched in the very light hitting AL Central.
If Roy pitched against the same caliber of competition as Lee did I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume his ERA would have been closer to 2.65 or so.
Now if you want to make an argument that give the Phillies prodigious offense it doesn’t matter if they had a pitcher pitching to an ERA of 3.22 or 2.65 – they would win a similar number of games, I guess you could.
But as far as individual contribution to team wins, halladay offers the phillies much more. And he does so with much more certainty – Lee has had 2 good seasons. Halladay has had numerous. And Halladay hasn’t had the injury problems in his career Lee has.
“Holliday is still not worth the asking price.
End of story.”
Thanks. Very enlightening.
Mad prince, what pitching? I’m for the signing of sheets but he and every pitcher that is left come with significant risk involved. I’m for whatever is best for the Yankees and trust Cash to spend whatever money they have left wisely..
As things stand now, the Yanks aren’t as good as the team that won the World Series, and the Red Sox are better than they were at the end of the season.
Well yes, but as things stand right now the Yankees only have 8 players in the lineup. Thankfully the season doesn’t start right now.
Roy is da man. That’s all that needs to be said to describe him.
I can’t believe that a pitcher like him grew out of the ashes as described in the story that Betsy linked over the weekend.
I hope Damon is not the only target.
I understand about applying leverage to Boras.
There still should be a time limit IMO.
I hope Cash has last right of refusal from Boras or others.
Persue the additional pitching while working the offensive side of the equation.
Chew the bubble gum while continuing to walk.
“Thanks. Very enlightening.”
I know, huh?
Its so straight-forward its killing me.
The problem is, if Ellsbury is part of a package (which I don’t believe he is), the Red Sox get older, more expensive but, not better.
They become the 2004-2008 Yankees. Older, inflexible and expensive roster.
Very tough to trade a young, productive, cost controlled kid for a 38 year old LF.
I don’t think they have enough to land Adrian Gonzalez and the Padres, at least right now, would be nuts to trade him.
Better to wait until July and see if a pennant contender gets desperate.
Also, if the Red Sox trade Ellsbury and Buchholz for AD, they lose their starting pitching depth.
That’s a high price when you have guys like Beckett, Lackey, Dice-K and Wakefield in your rotation. All guys who have spent time, some considerable amounts of time, on the DL in recent years.
CB -
That makes sense to me. Wins-wise they could be a “wash,” but it’s a limited benefit, given what extra Halladay would bring. Is that a fair statement?
(Which is what made trading Lee palatable, in view of his not wanting to extend his contract with the Phillies?)
It’s too bad for the Phillies that they couldn’t find a way to keep Lee and Halladay. Holy cow. I guess they can always try to sign him as a FA after 2010 along with everyone else if their finances work out favorably.
blake-
Boston has stealthily improved at SS. And they will have Victor Martinez for the whole season. We tend to overlook those things when thinking about Lackey and Cameron.
I don’t want Damon for 1 yr, let alone 2.
“Granderson replaces Damon and Holliday would replace Matsui.
Why would the Yankees need to spend more money on offense after replacing all the production lost while upgrading the defense in the process?”
Bret,
Sorry this took so long to reply, I’ve been busy.
First of all we aren’t sure if Holliday signs with the Yankees which is why I say they need 1 or 2 more hitters.
I’m leaning more towards 2 because it is very unlikely that everyone in the Yankees lineup performs at or above expectations in 2010 similar to what happened in 2009. Jeter and Posada are over 35 yrs old which means it’s pretty likely they will regress.
If the Yankees get a guy like Holliday you could say that Holliday replaces Matsui and Granderson replaces Damon in a roundabout way. However that doesn’t account for the fact that the rest of the lineup probably isn’t going to perform as well as they did last year.
The Cards are in a bad spot with Holliday – they have to bring him back because Pujols has said publically that he wants to see the Cards make a commitment to winning (translation: “Get me some friggin help in the batting order”) before he opens talks with them about a new contract.
And I highly doubt that unless he offers a major home-town discount I’m still not sure how St. Louis is going to keep him. I mean if you’re Pujols, wouldn’t you start the conversation with the opening line, “well, the Yankees gave Alex Rodriguez…..” and go from there.
SJ44-
I hope you are right about the Red Sox but I suspect you may be a little over-optimistic.
They still have plenty of money if they want to sign Beltre this year. Plus, in 2011 and beyond, they will have plenty of money in freed up payroll to sign guys.
So far in his career Holliday is performing at a borderline Hall of Fame level and he’s in his primve. If that type of player is not worthy of a strong commitment, who is?
Oh, I hope the Yankees don’t offer Damon two years; I barely want him back at one.
I like that Holliday’s SO rates are low for a high OPS guy.
I don’t think Wave is saying that Boston is currently better than the Yanks. Simply that the Yanks aren’t as good as they are when the season ended and that Boston is better than they were when the season ended.
How much have the Yankees lost and how much have the Red Sox gained is up for debate but I think what Wave says is a fair point to make.
Also, Holliday’s swing plays well in Fenway so he’d be a nice weapon in addition to Alex.
Boston has stealthily improved at SS. And they will have Victor Martinez for the whole season. We tend to overlook those things when thinking about Lackey and Cameron.
Offensively Scutaro is better than Gonzalez; defensively Scutaro can’t hold A-Gone’s jock.
Cameron vs. Bay defensively is a wash because of the Monster, offensively it’s a drop off.
Victor a full season helps; but unless they can unload Lowell he’s going to be worse than he was last season.
Nancy Drew is having yet another operation.
Lackey is an upgrade
Overall I would say that if Boston is better – it is not by much.
We knew the Sox wouldn’t be down for the count. I mean, they still made noise in the playoffs. They’ve got $$ to burn. They’ll likely be healthier in the rotation.
The biggest disappointment is the Yankees letting Hideki take his bat and go. But nothing can be done about that now.
No matter what rosters look like or how they match up, they still have to play the games. Your ace is going to lose games, but your other Ace is going to pick up wins as a reliever. That’s how it goes.
Patrick-
I don’t believe the Yanks will commit to what it is going to take to sign Holliday. Pitching is clearly their focus. Also, they could have had Cameron and Matsui for less than what Holliday will get, with more long-term flexibility to boot. I just don’t see Holliday in my Yankee offense crystal ball.
They also have a healthy DiceK for the whole year who was outstanding in September this year.
V-Mart for the whole year, DiceK for the whole year, Lackey, Cameron, Scutero a 2-way SS who is 10x better than Lowrie or Green. Bard will also be better having some experience under his belt.
Sox are a much better team than they were last year. If they ever get Gonzales, then forget it. They will be an absolute force. They won 95 games last year and would have added a lot while only subtracting Ellsbury.
“So far in his career Holliday is performing at a borderline Hall of Fame level and he’s in his primve. If that type of player is not worthy of a strong commitment, who is?”
Felix Hernandez.
I’m holding out for the King.
“I don’t think Wave is saying that Boston is currently better than the Yanks. Simply that the Yanks aren’t as good as they are when the season ended and that Boston is better than they were when the season ended.”
Yes.
The Yankees haven’t finished their off-season…..and the Red Sox had a LOT of ground to make up.
Dice-K, Victor Martinez, Lowell, Ortiz, Wakefield and their bullpen are no sure bets. Victor had a strong 1st month but was abysmal after. Dice-K has yet to show major league control, lowell might not get traded and will require thumb surgery, ortiz is breaking down, wakefield can’t move. Ramon Ramirez, Delcarmen, Papelbon, Okajima, Bard are no longer invincible. Bard isn’t a super prospect. he just throws hard.
The red sox will almost always be a good team, but I don’t think they have yet to eclipse the Yankees.
Just rumored on WFAN – the Phillies are fielding offers on Shane Victorino. My oh my – you can put him ahead of DeJesus on my list of players I would want to deal for to play LF here.
Offer up: Aceves, Nunez, Brackman, Romaine for Victorino?
Wave,
My point is, if they sign Beltre, which I think is what’s going to play out, they have a lot of money tied up in Beltre, Scutaro, Cameron and Lackey.
Not exactly CC Sabathia and Mark Teixeira.
I think the Sox overestimated how good their young guys were (including Ellsbury) and are trying to patch their mistakes through free agency.
The problem is, paying guys great money (as we saw with the Yankees) doesn’t make them great players.
John Lackey is making more money than AJ Burnett. They are the same guy, with Burnett possessing better stuff and a healthier last couple of years.
Marco Scutaro is nothing special. Defensively, Alex Gonzalez is much better. Yet, they have 3 years tied up in a guy who was a utility player most of his career.
Aside from one, steroid year, Beltre has always been a much better defender than hitter. His age is also fuzzy. Some guys I know in the game swear he’s 32. Beltre says he’s younger.
Mike Cameron will make more money than Curtis Granderson this year. I’m sorry but, Mike Cameron is not a better player than Curtis Granderson. As good a guy (character-wise), not a good a player.
Their moves have been ok IMO. Nothing great.
If the Yankees signed Damon and Sheets and added Nick Johnson or Vlad (if the money was there), they are still better.
Personally, I think they are going to sign Damon and Sheets and see who is left at the right price to DH.
It wouldn’t shock me that sometime in January, they get Vlad (or another stick) with a one year, friendly contract after getting Damon and Sheets done.
“Also, Holliday’s swing plays well in Fenway so he’d be a nice weapon in addition to Alex.”
How many games do we play in Fenway each year? 9? MAYBE 13 if we go 7 games in the ALCS.
This point is absolutely irrelevant.
Last I checked, the Yankees play 81 games in Yankee Stadium, and roughly 18 different teams each year. You don’t build your team around one opponent. That is asinine.
If the Yankees get a guy like Holliday you could say that Holliday replaces Matsui and Granderson replaces Damon in a roundabout way. However that doesn’t account for the fact that the rest of the lineup probably isn’t going to perform as well as they did last year.
—
That makes sense but the core isn’t that old except for maybe Posada. I can’t see much dropoff anywhere in the lineup and possibly further improvement from Cano, Melky and Swisher.
Our 9th hitter would have a .750 OPS.
I think after getting Granderson and Holliday, any leftover money should be used to address other areas of need.
Chip,
Ruben Amaro hangs up the phone with that offer.
That’s not getting it done for Victorino.
Chip, you would put someone ahead of dejesus?
Chip
December 15th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Just rumored on WFAN – the Phillies are fielding offers on Shane Victorino.
—
Would they deal with the Yanks though?
“How do you think signing Holliday would affect the Yankees flexibility in the future? ”
no. 27,
You’re bringing up a really critical point. Overall, I’d say you have to look at the trade offs as it’s not really a binary situation where they are or are not flexible.
On the whole, I’d ask you to specify your question by asking how do you think signing Holliday would affect the yankees flexibility in the future compared to other alternatives? LF has to be filled so it’s going to impact their flexibility in one way or another.
And here’s the crux of the problem – the yankees now have very, very few outfield prospects and literally no viable prospects in the upper levels of their minor leagues. None. (I don’t think one can assume that if Montero has to move off of 1b that he could play an even adequate LF as he hasn’t even tried it yet…)
Given that – filling LF will be painful either in terms of talent to trade or money. There are no alternatives unless you are banking on getting another GM to make a dumb trade (which isn’t a strategy you can plan on…).
So given the state of the yankees minor leagues and the hole in LF – a hole which will exist in the near future even if Damon comes back due to his age – the team will need to make a trade or a signing.
In terms of signings that really gets down to whether or not you want Holliday at the money he’ll sign for + that production this year vs. taking a shot at Crawford next year if he hits the market + the stop gap production in LF you’d get his year.
Crawford will not be “cheap.” In fact, given the lack of OF in next year’s free agent crop I’m concerned that Crawfor might wind up getting wildly over paid.
Crawfor will also impact the yankees flexibility moving forward. He is going to get a 5 year deal. And his game is built on speed and if he loses it much (most?) of his value will decay away.
And I’d argue that that is exactly the kind of situation that kills flexibility – it’s having a player under produce on a long term deal.
Holliday is a better ball player than Crawford and carries less risk over the life of his contract given his skill set compared to Crawfords. Plus if you act now you get plus production in LF for an additional year in which the veterans on the team will be more likely to produce at a higher level than they likely will in 2011.
Trades are a whole other matter. But in general I don’t think you can bank on being able to trade for a young, reasonably signed corner OF unless you trade away the farm. Now they successfully did it with Swisher and Granderson but those situations aren’t common.
So you can’t look at Holliday in an isolated fashion. They will most likely fill LF via free agency. And that really means either Holliday now or take a shot at Crawford next year.
SJ44,
“Ruben Amaro hangs up the phone with that offer.
That’s not getting it done for Victorino.”
Its usually better not to respond to the absurd ideas for trade offers that we so often get on here.
Don’t give in
“I don’t believe the Yanks will commit to what it is going to take to sign Holliday. Pitching is clearly their focus. Also, they could have had Cameron and Matsui for less than what Holliday will get, with more long-term flexibility to boot. I just don’t see Holliday in my Yankee offense crystal ball.”
Neither did I, until they let Matsui and Cameron go to our two most hated rivals (because seriously, f the angels).
I too thought that adding Matsui and Cameron would have greatly improved the offense and defense of the club while not spending a lot of money and still providing long-term flexibility (that’s a Cash buzzword folks!).
I can only guess that they
1. either have something bigger planned or
2. they truly don’t think Cameron and Matsui are good fits.
I’m choosing to be optimistic and think that #1 is true because if #2 is true, they are flat out wrong.
Mad Prince,
The king is about to get extended in Seattle. They aren’t doing all of these other things only to dump the crowned jewel. Also, King Felix has refused to sign with the Yanks before, even when they were offering more money.
The Mad Prince in Pinstripes
December 15th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
“Also, Holliday’s swing plays well in Fenway so he’d be a nice weapon in addition to Alex.”
How many games do we play in Fenway each year? 9? MAYBE 13 if we go 7 games in the ALCS.
This point is absolutely irrelevant.
Last I checked, the Yankees play 81 games in Yankee Stadium, and roughly 18 different teams each year. You don’t build your team around one opponent. That is asinine.
—
Very enlightening indeed.
They have no choice but to give Damon what he wants— Cameron is gone, so is Matsui.
Even if they sign Vlad or someone, they are not going to camp with Melky as the starting LFer. That basically negates the net value we get from Granderson.
“The Yankees haven’t finished their off-season…..and the Red Sox had a LOT of ground to make up.”
Betsy, this is the most calm, rational statement you’ve ever typed here. Keep it up!
If the Yankees get a guy like Holliday you could say that Holliday replaces Matsui and Granderson replaces Damon in a roundabout way. However that doesn’t account for the fact that the rest of the lineup probably isn’t going to perform as well as they did last year.
___
you are right. probably going to get more hits and runs from a rod.
Would they deal with the Yanks though?
Why not?
Ruben Amaro hangs up the phone with that offer.
Alright – are you willing to part with Hughes, Joba or Montero to get it done?
Chip, you would put someone ahead of dejesus?
Only because Victorino has proven he can play in a tough market. I still believe DeJesus would be a great fit for the Yankees
Jeez how could anybody pitch as well as Lee did for the Phil’s last postseason?
Well maybe Doc could have but he wouldn’t have made that behind the back “look what I found” grab!
That was just like twisting the knife at that point of the game.
The Phil’s problem was that they didn’t have anybody to follow Lee. And they still don’t really have anybody.
It would suck if Holliday turned out to be a Gary Matthews or a Bobby Bonilla.
I think he’s better than that, but he wants too many years at too much money to take such a long term risk.
Vin, lol – it has to do with the idea that the Sox are gaining or are better than us. I can’t even cotton to that idea, lol. I’m pretty sure the Yankees are going to have a LF this year and that there won’t be a void. DH? I don’t know – I can’t believe Cashman (who’s very smart) actually thinks a rotating DH is a good idea….he has to mean that it’s just a good idea to give our guys some rest from time to time. On those days, you sacrifice a bat…He’s inscrutable, Cashman is.
Patrick-
I suspect the reason the Yanks didn’t go the Cameron/Matsui route is that they have a limited budget remaining and are planning to spend a big chunk of that on a pitcher. That seems like the simplest explanation to me.
Getting Holliday looks great in the near term, but I worry in the out-years when an aging CC, ARod, AJ and Tex will all also be signed. They could all remain fine and productive and no problem, but what will the Yanks be able to do if it doesn’t work out that way?
Hey Guys, I’m opening this one up to the boards.
What does the Yankee lineup look like with Nick Johnson and no Damon?
What about with both Damon and Nick Johnson.
I think Nick Johnson might be a good addition. He’s not exactly what they are looking for because he isn’t an outfielder but I think he could be a good fit.
Shane Victorino is going to be 29 and is an .800 or lower OPS type of guy. I think that package Chip suggested might even be too much. We’ll see what they get for him.
SJ44
December 15th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
If Mike Cameron and Bobby Abreu can get 2 years, Johnny Damon certainly can.
=======================================================
I’m not so sure he is worth what those guys are.
He is not vary good in the OF anymore.
He is a good fit for Yankee Stadium as a DH part time LF.
Sox didn’t have that much ground to make up. Our rotations and pen were comparable. They needed to upgrade their lineup. If they get Gonzalez, they would have effectively done that.
Gonzalez/VMart/Youkallis is a very good middle of the order. The Sox are presently constituted are not much better than they were last year. However, I doubt they are done. They have 6 starters, Lowell is gone (or about to be gone if that trade gets approved), and Cameron is in left. They are also looking at Nady and already have Hermedia. Their roster construction does not indicate a finished product.
The composition of that committee is a joke. They need dynamic young guys to move the sport foward.
Damon may get two years, BUT it shouldn’t be from the NY Yankees.
Matt Holliday is an interesting case.
You can look at him one of two ways.
1. He is an elite hitter, and a good enough defender, to make a long term commitment to at this time. Especially since there aren’t any OF prospects ready for the majors anytime soon.
2. Signing him puts another big contract on the books and makes them more inflexible in coming years.
The question then becomes obviously, more inflexible toward whom?
If they were to sign Holliday, it may limit their pitching options this year and next year (Beckett or Lee). It certainly takes them out of adding a DH this season.
Its an interesting situation and I see both sides of it.
Personally, I’m good either way they go but, I tend to lean toward Damon, Sheets, then see where you are at that point, rather than tying up huge money on another guy.
Another option…..
They sign Holliday and then look to trade Swisher to free up money and add some prospects to the mix.
The good thing about all this is, the Yankees have options. They aren’t roped into doing any one thing.
Funny thing about guys like Holliday…
The average LoHudder would want Cashman to trade for him .
But when he becomes a FA, the average LoHudduer doesn’t want anything to do with him.
Seems illogical to me. He’s a very talented player. Has skills that will age well (as CB mentionned). Can give you positive production out of LF. Fits the Yankees’ needs like a glove.
If he’s willing to sign for something like 5/90… then the Yanks will have nailed down a very potent middle of the lineup for years to come.
I’ve waffled on Holliday this offseason, but I know he’s major talent – the only question is what the price will be.
Patrick –
I’ll have to disagree. I love Mats, but his ability to only bat eats a roster spot for someone that can spell a fielder on off days. Plus, it’s another year on those knees which are shot. As much as I didn’t want to see him go, I’m okay with him leaving, even if it’s to the Angels.
As for Cameron, I just don’t see it. I have never understood the love that some here have been giving him. If we were talking early 2000′s Cameron, sure. But the aged version? For the money that the Sox gave him? PASS.
Yankees this year are going to operate in a vacuum. They aren’t going to let what other teams, even the Sawx, dictate what they do. They addressed their major needs last year and won the WS. This year’s needs, while important, are not as dire as last. Sawx are in trouble if they are looking to Cameron, Beltre et al to be their saviors. Who’s next, Giambi?
Yanks will be in fine shape come ST and I look forward to a good defense of the title.
A name that we thought would sign quickly but seems to be just hanging around without a landing spot – Mark DeRosa. The Yankees had interest early, maybe he’s their Plan B if Damon doesn’t give them an answer by Christmas.
I am still trying to figure out how the Red Sox expect VMart to handle a full season of catching.
What does the Yankee lineup look like with Nick Johnson and no Damon?
What about with both Damon and Nick Johnson.
I think Nick Johnson might be a good addition. He’s not exactly what they are looking for because he isn’t an outfielder but I think he could be a good fit.
–
Just NJ?
Lefties
Jeter
JohnsonTex
A-rod
Posada
Cano
Swisher
Melky/Hoffman (pending making the team)
Granderson
Righties
Jeter
Granderson
Tex
A-rod
Johnson
Cano
Posada
Swisher
Melky/Gardner
Damon AND Nick Johnson? (an actual smart move by Cash, seeing as how both damon and NJ could play the field and DH)
Jeter
Damon
A-rod
Tex
Johnson
Granderson vs Righties / Posada vs Lefties
Cano
Posada vs righties / swisher vs lefties
Melky/Gardner/Hoffman
Betsy,
OK, now you’re freaking me out. I actually completely agree with your last post. This is like one of those few occasions when I find myself agreeing with GB7. What’s this world coming to?!
Bret,
“Very enlightening indeed.”
Sorry bud, but signing a guy because he would hit well in Fenway is not a bright move. Plenty more to worry about.
Chip,
Shane Victorino is an all star player.
Why are the Phillies trading him to the Yankees for non-elite talent?
You don’t think they can do better than that on the open market.
If you aren’t giving up one of Hughes, Joba or Montero, you aren’t getting Shane Victorino.
The Phillies have plenty of money. They don’t need to give all star players away.
“That makes sense but the core isn’t that old except for maybe Posada. I can’t see much dropoff anywhere in the lineup and possibly further improvement from Cano, Melky and Swisher.”
Jeter and Posada are both above 35. That is two big bats in the lineup that are probably (not definitely) going to regress. Also if you look at the rest of the lineup, everyone performed at or above expectations. I think it’s hard to assume that they will all do the same thing again.
“It would suck if Holliday turned out to be a Gary Matthews or a Bobby Bonilla.
I think he’s better than that, but he wants too many years at too much money to take such a long term risk.
”
Bobby Bonilla? He signed a 5 year deal with the Mets. Over the course of that deal he averaged:
26 hrs
.286/.365/.508/.873 ops (129 ops+)
Many worse contracts have been signed. Matthews on the other hand… that was an egregious mistake by the Angels front office. No way you pay a (32 year old) career .755 OPS hitter 10 mill a year for 5 years.
Nick-
If the Yanks are only going to get one more major offensive player, Nick Johnson is basically just as good as Damon.
Either way, the Yanks will be one really good hitter short of perfect, IMO, but still good. Either way, the Yanks will have a good #2 hitter. Either way, the Yanks won’t have the number 5 hitter that Matsui was.
If the Yanks are planning to sign an OF and a DH, though, signing Johnson does leave less flexibility, though, as there are more DH options than OF options left on the table.
Jerkface,
What I love most about your lineup is the fact that it presents a cheaper, reasonable solution at DH in Johnson vs. a $16 million mistake in LF.
With or without Damon, I think our offense will be just fine in 2010.
Shane Victorino is an all star player.
—
He was voted to the all-star game once, in his first season with an OPS over .800.
His full time player average is: .289 .351 .435 .786 , good but not super great. Certainly not a Hughes/joba/Montero player. Sorry thats hyperbolic.
If they are going to regress, what about Cameron and Matsui for that matter? You can say that about any older player.
Cameron is now replacing a guy who was second in the AL in RBI, and a solid, middle of the lineup hitter. Cameron has never been that kind of hitter, even in his prime.
I think Mike Cameron is tremendously overvalued by people on this board.
Rick
December 15th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Sox didn’t have that much ground to make up. Our rotations and pen were comparable. They needed to upgrade their lineup. If they get Gonzalez, they would have effectively done that.
——————————–
Except they finished 8 games behind a Yankees team last year that had Sergio Mitre and Chad Gaudin filling out the rotation for a large chunk of the season. The Red Sox had considerable ground to make up.
And it terms of pure offensive production Gonzalez would only be a slight upgrade over Bay
How any Yankee fan could want a whole season of watching Vlad swing at pitches over his head, in the dirt or 6 feet off of the plate is beyond me.
Interesting Jerkface.
Just playing devil’s advocate here…
You think Johnson could bat second? He has the OBP for sure but the lack of speed? I also don’t know if I would bay Johnson 5th. Might slot Posada there and then put Nick 6th. with Cano, Swisher and Melky rounding out the order.
I also think it’s interesting how you have Arod third and Tex 4th in the NJ and Damon lineup.
I think a tandem of Damon and Nick Johnson could actually really make sense.
I wonder if the Yanks have enough payroll to nab Johnson/Damon/Pitcher. That is now my pet prayer for the yanks. I talked myself into it. Just so long as Damon isn’t more than 2 years.
You aren’t getting Shane Victorino for anything less than at least one A List prospect or the Phillies won’t trade him.
Aceves, Nunez, Romine and Brackman ain’t gettin’ it done.
He’s got a ring, Gold Gloves and has been an all star.
Those guys don’t get traded for scraps.
“I think Mike Cameron is tremendously overvalued by people on this board.”
LOL
He may very well be overvalued here (and at RAB)… but that’s because he’s so undervalued by most baseball fans. Funny how that happens to guys.
The only question that really matters now – did the Red Sox under- or overvalue him?
If they were to sign Holliday, it may limit their pitching options this year and next year (Beckett or Lee). It certainly takes them out of adding a DH this season.
Disclaimer: The Yankees are not going to outbid the offer that St. Louis made for Holliday so the following is mostly moot.
Whether the Yankees sign Holliday (or Damon for that matter) they are not likely to sign another bat to DH. More likely they would move Swisher to DH and play Melky in RF and rotate Melky in and out of the lineup when other players need a day at DH.
As an example – say the Yankees sign Holliday, the opening day lineup is:
Derek
Granderson
Tex
Alex
Holliday
Posada
Cano
Swisher – DH
Melky – RF
on a day when Alex DH’s the lineup is then
Jeter
Granderson
Tex
Alex – DH
Holliday
Posada
Cano
Swisher – RF
Ramiro Pena – 3b
This model, versus the one with a traditional middle of the order DH, minimizes the amount of disruption to the lineup on a day when either someone else is at DH or when games are played in a national league park, and also only substitutes out the weakest hitter in the lineup.
By contrast, last year when the Yankees wanted to play Posada at DH they not only lost their number 5 hitter in Matsui, but also had to have both Molina and Melky in the lineup. This way the DH (Swisher) is in the lineup everyday.
From MLBTR:
“The Yankees have no intention of bidding on Holliday, according to Olney’s sources.”
If this is true, it is music to my ears.
You cannot just throw Victorino’s numbers out there without putting it in the context of other CF.
Ortiz had more HRs and RBIs than Teixeira after June 1st.
He is not done by any stretch.
V-Mart for a full year. Drew, Youkallis, Pedroia, Cameron, Ellsbury. Scuero replaces Green/Lowrie. Most likely Beltre replacing Lowell.
That is still a top 5 lineup in baseball and their rotation is much better than last year.
Laura,
If he hits .280, 25, 90, which he could do hitting between Arod and Granderson, why would any Yankee fan care what he swings at?
The idea is to be productive and, if healthy, he still has productive years as a DH.
Johnson is not as slow as everyone is making him out to be. He hustles every play, gets out of the box enough to get a few triples and ton of doubles. You don’t need Damon’s speed in the 2 hole if you have Johnson’s batting ability and on base talents. Plus his P/PA is always very high.
Johnson did this: .291 .426 .405 .831 in 2009 while walking more than he struck out and even collected 2 triples.
Speed in the 2 spot is only worth it if you intend to double steal a lot, which the yankees don’t really do. He will still score from 1st on a lot of doubles, will hit alot of doubles himself.
It just makes sense. He is a great contact hitter and has no platoon split.
What a surprise – Olney is now reporting that the Cards offer to Holliday is actually is a 5 year deal (as opposed to the “up to 8 year deal” reported by Joe Strauss last night).
I’d guess the cards are only guaranteeing a 5 year deal with multiple options that could take the deal to 8 years.
5 years at 16 per. That sounds like the guaranteed money.
Per Olney the Cards arent’ inclined to up their offer because they feel like there are few – if any – teams competing with them for Holliday.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=4745530
Question for you SJ44…and anyone else.
Do the Yankees have the payroll fexibility to land Damon, Nick Johnson and another pitcher (Sheets, Dusch, anyone else)
If that seems reasonable then that is what I would like to see. I think tha rounds out the order VERY nicely and provides the flexibility they need around the diamond.
Someone call Cash and pass that along for me. Now we just gotta make sure we feel good about our bullpen
I think Cashman wants to rotate the DH and won’t sign a bat to play there. He’ll bring back Damon and he will be mostly a DH with Melky playing left, but on days we rest people, Damon plays left and someone else DHs…..
vin
December 15th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
“I think Mike Cameron is tremendously overvalued by people on this board.”
LOL
He may very well be overvalued here (and at RAB)… but that’s because he’s so undervalued by most baseball fans. Funny how that happens to guys.
The only question that really matters now – did the Red Sox under- or overvalue him?
—————————-
I think that is exactly the case. So many people on here are like Cameron is the worst player ever that people like me who are high on Cameron make it seem like he is the best player in the world.
To me, Cameron does not make much sense to the Red Sox on two levels.
1. While he has been consistently putting up the same like for over 10 years now whenever you get that old a multi-year contract is very risky. Cameron for 1 year is a good move. Cameron for 2 is not the worst thing in the world considering he has not shown any decline yet, but pretty risky IMO.
2. Much of his value comes from being an elite defensive CF. That is basically wasted in Fenway sticking him in LF.
“I think Mike Cameron is tremendously overvalued by people on this board.”
I don’t think we Cameron ex-supporters (he is on the Sox now, after all) over-value him. Most of us are pretty realistic about his pluses and minuses. It’s just that we thought him a substantial improvement over Melky, a good hitter against LHP, a good defensive outfielder and a good pick-up if the Yanks could also get Matsui. I never saw him as a good a hitter as Jason Bay.
A Top 5 lineup in baseball>
Gotta be a Sox fan.
And please, can the selective stat mongering.
David Ortiz feasted on horrible pitching and couldn’t hit good pitching for most of last season.
His body type is Type A of guys that regress quickly in the game.
Mike Cameron and Adrian Beltre are not adequate offensive replacements for Mike Lowell and Jason Bay. Not even close.
That’s over 250 strikeouts added to a lineup that was known for putting the ball in play.
Also, Victor Martinez’s stats were up and down most of the year.
Add a full year of catching (and he is a well below average catcher) and that’s not a Top 5 lineup in anybody’s mind but Red Sox fans and ESPN.
Its a FAR cry from their championship lineups.
Chip
December 15th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Just rumored on WFAN – the Phillies are fielding offers on Shane Victorino. My oh my – you can put him ahead of DeJesus on my list of players I would want to deal for to play LF here.
Offer up: Aceves, Nunez, Brackman, Romaine for Victorino?
————————————————————
Amaro must like salads and awful lot to trade Victorino for
a head of Romaine lettuce.
Shane Victorino was tied with Jacoby Ellsbury for wOBA. By WAR he was the 10th best CFer in baseball. He is 29, has a good mixture of skills but doesn’t excel at anything.
If he is traded, which I doubt, I bet you will all be surprised by what he would bring back.
The scenario I laid out above by the way works no matter who the Yankees sign to play the OF – Damon, DeRosa, Holliday, Church, a trade for DeJesus.
The only ways in which it doesn’t work are:
1. The Yankees sign an OF and a DH
2. The Yankees sign a traditional DH who has no position in the field (Thome, Delgado, Glaus, Vlad)
I don’t think either of those options are likely though. With the addition of 1 bat the Yankees will have a formidible enough lineup to carry a weaker hitter in the 9 spot and if the Yankees were interested in a traditional DH then Hideki Matsui would not be shopping for homes in Brentwood right now.
SJ44, what did you think of The U documentary on ESPN? Brought back great memories though Butch got shafted. Had JJ or HS stayed, UM could have won 10 NCs by now
From MLBTR:
Cuban lefty Aroldis Chapman worked out in front of about 15 teams in Houston today, according to Jorge Arangure Jr. of ESPN.com. The Astros and Pirates were there, along with the Angels, Marlins, Pirates, Orioles, Yankees, Red Sox and others. The Dodgers weren’t there because they don’t have the money to bid, according to Arangure Jr.’s Twitter.
The teams saw the 21-year-old throw for five minutes two different times. Chapman’s fastball topped out at 96 mph and he also threw his slider and change-up. Arangure Jr. expects several teams to meet with him today.
Must be out of shape only 96MPH (lol)
“The idea is to be productive and, if healthy, he still has productive years as a DH.”
That’s just it, SJ. His plate discipline worked for him when he was young and at the top of his game. However, from what we’ve seen and from what has been reported, he is no longer getting to balls that he used to. I don’t know about you, but 162 games of him hacking away at pitches (that he’s missing, BTW) would drive me insane.
Plus, I have to ask myself – why didn’t LAA sign him instead of Matsui? Hmmmm……
I agree.
make Damon take one year. If not then sign Nick Johnson at DH
Vlad does not strike out and he is such a dangerous hitter because he can hit bad balls. If you throw him things out of the zone, he can still dunk it in for a base hit. If you are aggressive and attack him, he will make you pay. If you try to pitch around him, he will extend his arms and get a hit anyway.
Look at how Hughes and Andy pitched to him. Andy threw him a ball in the dirt basically and he hit a 2-R HR. Hughes threw a 95 MPH fastball down the pipe trying to overpower him and he ripped a base hit. He can hit all kinds of pitching.
“2. Much of his value comes from being an elite defensive CF. That is basically wasted in Fenway sticking him in LF.”
We don’t know if that’s what the Sox do. My guess is they put him in CF, leaving Ellsbury to go to LF. Leaving them with the same problem as having Melky in LF.
Wave,
I thought that is what is being reported as the Red Sox plan? Do not have the source but I thought that is what I heard when they signed him yesterday. Things could obviously change with that though
Chip,
What can I do to convince you to put some of that Dejesus enthusiasm towards a Damon/Johnson tandem???
“If they are going to regress, what about Cameron and Matsui for that matter? You can say that about any older player.”
That is certainly true. Which is why I wanted the Yankees to double up on Matsui and Cameron. That would have meant entering the season with a better lineup on paper than they had last season. Melky is relegated to the bench, Granderson goes to left, Cameron plays center. It basically gives you an extra above-average hitter which could help provide insurance against regression/injuries.
This topic is played out because he’s now with the Sox but the value in Cameron is his ability to hit at an above average rate while being one of the best CF defenders in the league. I actually think he’s underrated by people on this blog and elsewhere in baseball.
Sox scored 872 runs last year… 3rd best in baseball behind us and Tampa. 52 runs ahead of that vaunted Phillies lineup (820). Also were 2nd in OBP and SLG behind us.
Their lineup issues are really exaggerated. Now, they lost Bay so they are going to take a hit, but there are still going to be a formidable lineup.
Do the Yankees have the payroll fexibility to land Damon, Nick Johnson and another pitcher (Sheets, Dusch, anyone else)
That depends:
1. How much Damon wants
2. How much Johnson wants
3. How much a pitcher wants
Let’s assume that Damon comes in at 2 years 10 mil per. Nick Johnson will probably want in the 2-3 year, 6 mil per range.
So that’s an additional 16 mil on the payroll. Could the Yankees add another pitcher? Sure. But in the end I don’t think that scenario is going to play out.
There are enough teams in need of a first baseman (Seattle, Atlanta, Texas, Baltimore, San Francisco) that would offer Johnson the chance to play first rather than just DH. Second, if the Yankees wanted a traditional DH, as I said above, Hideki Matsui would not be shopping for homes in Brentwood right now.
Also, to be fair, Matt Holliday is an above average fielder in LF.
2007: 14.2 UZR
2008: 9.1 UZR
2009: 5.1 UZR
It basically gives you an extra above-average hitter which could help provide insurance against regression/injuries.
–
This was my entire basis for the stupid argument I got dragged into about the Yankees messing up for not signing Matsui + Cameron. I agreed 100%.
Every hitter in baseball feasts on bad pitching. Are they supposed to accumulate their stats by pounding Halladay, Lester, and CC?
“Vlad does not strike out and he is such a dangerous hitter because he can hit bad balls. If you throw him things out of the zone, he can still dunk it in for a base hit. If you are aggressive and attack him, he will make you pay. If you try to pitch around him, he will extend his arms and get a hit anyway.”
He used to be able to do this on a regular basis. Now, it’s less frequent.
He’s a hacker, who has had some success in the past. Sorry, but I want no part of him.
“Sox scored 872 runs last year… 3rd best in baseball behind us and Tampa.”
Their offensive production was very skewed however.
They were almost two different teams offensively – a team that mashed in Fenway and a team that was mediocre scoring runs on the road.
They averaged around 2 runs more at home than on the road, IIRC (around 6 runs vs. 4).
That’s a enormous gap. Their offense – especially their RH hitting was highly dependent on hitting at home to produce power and score runs.
The Yankees scored 915 runs last year
Home: 460
Away: 455
The Red Sox scored 872 runs last year
Home: 481
Away: 391
Hey everyone. Been out of the office all day, so I’m just catching up. I see not much has happened today, but we’ve all digested yesterday’s developments.
I would say the Yanks still can spend about 16-18 mil to stay under the 200 mil mark.
Shane Victorino is insanely overrated on this thread. He’s a guy who was so impressive he got rule 5′d twice. He has 1 season over .800 OPS and like the rest of the Phillies can’t hit a curveball. Anyway, he fits no need that the Yanks have. He doesn’t have the bat to play left for us and Curtis is a much better fit in CF.
Oh, and if the Cards are 5/16 for Holliday we shouldn’t waste a second before we at least match it. If we are his first choice as reported, he should be willing to come to the Yanks for close to the same thing.
Hughes threw that FB down the middle, that’s why Vlad hit hit it. Hughes couldn’t have thrown a worse pitch… a straight FB down the middle to a hacker you have 0-2? Even Shelly Duncan could have taken that pitch out of the yard.
He is not going to hit a well located FB. He has no more bat speed.
Vlad can’t hold Matsui’s jock. Vlad can be pitched too.
“How any Yankee fan could want a whole season of watching Vlad swing at pitches over his head, in the dirt or 6 feet off of the plate is beyond me.”
I always say that he swings like a lumberjack. Of course he’ll most likely end up in the HOF with that “nose-to-toes” approach. The guy has had a remarkable career. He will swing at anything, yet he has never struck out more than 95 times in 1 season (that was when he was 23 and hit 38 hrs).
What is troubling about Vlad:
1) his health is always a concern
2) his SO rate has increased the last 3 years
3) his BB rate has significantly declined the last 3 years
4) his percentage of hits that went for extra bases was the lowest in his career, last year (could definitely be related to his hamstring injury)
What is great about Vlad:
1) is a legitimate power threat
2) can hit a ball out of any ballpark
3) the price may be right
Chip
Do the Yankees have the payroll fexibility to land Damon, Nick Johnson and another pitcher (Sheets, Dusch, anyone else)
That depends:
1. How much Damon wants
2. How much Johnson wants
3. How much a pitcher wants
Let’s assume that Damon comes in at 2 years 10 mil per. Nick Johnson will probably want in the 2-3 year, 6 mil per range.
So that’s an additional 16 mil on the payroll. Could the Yankees add another pitcher? Sure. But in the end I don’t think that scenario is going to play out.
There are enough teams in need of a first baseman (Seattle, Atlanta, Texas, Baltimore, San Francisco) that would offer Johnson the chance to play first rather than just DH. Second, if the Yankees wanted a traditional DH, as I said above, Hideki Matsui would not be shopping for homes in Brentwood right now.
—–
Makes sense but I don’t know of Johnson would have a traditional DH roll with Cashman’s werid job description for the Yankee DH. I wonder if he could play LF? (just thinking out loud, he prob can’t)
It makes no sense to sign Vlad if they passed up Matsui. Vlad has back issues, costs more and has been declining.
any news on the chapman bullpen session?
This Camoran move makes me livid!! I mean it just tipped the scales over and gave the sox the edge in this matchup. One more reason to hate Sheffield. If he would have just shut his trap many years ago, we would have had Camoran from the Mets. Now we get to watch the 36 year old scare our pitching staff 18x a year. Tough 36 hours if you ask me. Time to counter with Dye.
On a serious note. I was watching mlb tv yesterday and they were showing Pedros performance in the 99 all star. All i could think about is how we had to face the best pitcher in his era year after year. My point is Beckett,Lackey,GYRO,Lester, Back pains or anyone else they can add on isnt anywhere near the threat he was in his prime. We got him to call us his daddy with a lessor lineup than we have now. Its all good fellas. Our offense can handle anything they throw at us and Camoran in left is better for us than Bay or Holliday.
He’s a hacker, who has had some success in the past. Sorry, but I want no part of him.
More important than his strikeouts or homeruns to me is this:
156, 150, 140, 100 – the regression of numbers in games played over the last four years.
Vlad is a gritty guy who plays in pain but between his back, knees, and other ailments I don’t think he can be counted on.
Much as everyone commented that “If the Yankees want a DH why don’t they just bring back Matsui” I will pose the question: If the Angels thought Vlad could still be counted on don’t you think they would have kept him over Matsui?
Victorino is very overrated. He is on a winning team full of stud hitters. He has speed and plays good D and plays in a bandbox, but people see him stealing bases and getting his uniform dirty and think he is some “gritty grinder gamer”. He is a solid player, not a star.
He is not much better than Melky.
Kd-
look at my post earlier in the thread.
“Matt Holliday is an interesting case. They sign Holliday and then look to trade Swisher to free up money and add some prospects to the mix”
————————————-
then you’re screwing with chemistry. The yankees won in 2009 and chemistry/swisher was integral in this. I don’t want to see the yankees revert back to the 20 cabs for 20 players mentality.
barring a trade, NYY needs to remain with what they have in LF, and target a DH instead. Nick Johnson would be the ideal candidate
“If this is true, it is music to my ears.”
If the Cardinals only offered Holliday 5 years at 16MM per, you should be very worried, because the Yankees are very likely to get involved at that level. I think the Cardinals are correct that they aren’t “competing with a lot of teams”, but that certainly doesn’t mean they are without competition. If the Yankees believe they can acquire Holliday with a five year contract in the $16-$18M range, they’re probably going to jump at that. Holliday is extremely likely to outperform that contract…a contract that would only carry him through his age 34 season by the way.
Worrying about what the Sox do is the “old” Steinbrenner way that led to disaster in the late 80s/early 90s. We don’t have many holes on this team, so there’s no need to go out and sign everyone on the market. Especially Mike Cameron!
I’m confident that Damon will re-sign. The Yanks and Boras are simply playing chicken to try and get the best deal. Eventually, reality will set in and he’ll sign for something like 2 years/22 million.
Another starter would be great, but it doesn’t have to be an ace like Halladay or Lackey. We have a strong top 3 and two young SPs with enormous potential so we just need a solid middle of the rotation type. At some point, we need to let Joba and Hughes go and see what we have.
Let’s not overrate Matt Holliday too much.
Not sure Victorino would approve a trade to the Yanks where he would have to wear one of those ballarina scurts. Im sure it still haunts him.
Laura,
Couldn’t you say the same thing about the Yankees and Matsui, since they know his knees better than anybody?
If Vlad is still out there in Jan, he becomes an interesting option.
Gotham Trembles: The Frillies are coming!
“They averaged around 2 runs more at home than on the road, IIRC (around 6 runs vs. 4).”
Likely a result of being heartened by the most passionate and intelligent fanbase in baseball. If they had a wiffleball park out in right field like that billion dollar monstrosity in NY, they would have doubled that production.
/MSM’d
CB, I think I would have had serious regrets about trading Joba (the one I would choose, if I were going to trade any of them), Montero or Hughes.
Good discussion about Holliday. I have been on record as saying I’m not interested, but CB raised excellent points about the LF situation. It’s going to have to be filled somehow and, frankly, I’m not all that interested in Crawford. Once his legs go, he’s shot. If he can be had at a reasonable price, I might just sign him. As to future flexibility, I don’t know. Obviously Mo, Po and Jeter will be re-signed…but I don’t think Cash is going to just give those guys whatever they want to. I think they will be made very fair offers…..but will they back up the Brinks truck? I don’t think so. I just wish we had better, more promising positional players in the minors. I can’t imagine any one of those guys are going to be that highly ranked by BA and other scouting organizations.
As to Chapman, I say the Yankees should go for it. They will never have the chance to draft this kind of arm again.
Bottom line
Vlad > a rotating DH
And those are seemingly out only 2 options. Forget about if he is better than Matsui, Matsui is gone now so that conversation is irrelevant. The question is… Is Vlad better than having no DH? The answer is yes.
When did anyone want to trade for Holliday? No serious fan wanted to. There were the same questions then, that there are now.
He’s a good player, not great. I don’t think he’s worth the huge contract he’ll command.
1 year of Damon in the field is too much. 2 years is unthinkable. Pay him what he’s worth, not a penny more. Otherwise, there are better, more creative solutions.
Eventually, reality will set in and he’ll sign for something like 2 years/22 million.
==========
I sure hope not. Damons days in the outfield looked over last year. Dh for one year fine. So Holliday wants to be a Yankee. Can anyone remember a player who took less just to be a Yankee? I know Beltran wanted to in the 12th hour. Anyone that actually made it happen?
Well, so much for Holliday…….
Vin, I know, right? What is the world coming to!
The Yankees are really serious about their budget and flexibility. Damon for 2 years? Ugh – again, I don’t even want him for one. Then what happens in a year or two? The Yankees go through this LF merry-go-round again?
i think with vlad, if you used him strictly as a dh (something cash doesnt want to do), he would stay healthy. his problem in 09 came after he played the field in the first couple months.
matsui made it through the year uninjured because he was only a dh. it may come down to it. when vlad is on, he can still do damage.
last resort after pitching and lf (if they decide to get a lf).
CB
“Per Olney the Cards arent’ inclined to up their offer because they feel like there are few – if any – teams competing with them for Holliday.”
How much better does this make you feel about the NYY’s chances of landing Holliday? This makes sense in light of the story they leaked referencing “up to” 8 years. We already knew their offer was on the low side with regard to AAV…combine that with this length and it has to set the stage for Cashman to further spoil the fanbase doesn’t it?
If we hire a DH, it should be a left handed hitter.
“I suspect the reason the Yanks didn’t go the Cameron/Matsui route is that they have a limited budget remaining and are planning to spend a big chunk of that on a pitcher. That seems like the simplest explanation to me.”
True, this is probably it considering Cashman is constantly talking about improving the pitching staff.
I’ll be honest, I don’t want Sheets. Not because he isn’t good but because I want Hughes and Chamberlain in the starting rotation full-time next year.
We suffered through all the ups and downs with Joba – in the pen, out of the pen, injury, back in the pen, joba rules, innings limits, pitch counts. Now he’s finally ready to be in the rotation for a full season with no innings limits. It would really suck if they then put him in the pen.
If Sheets or someone like him is signed I would really hope the Yankees would trade Chamberlain. His value as a starter is high, even with a mediocre 2009.
That’s why I want NY to sign Wang to a minor league deal because he provides depth but since he’s coming back from injury he won’t be in a position to demand a spot in the rotation.
Phil,
Would you go for Thome or Delgado? Those are the only LF DHs
It’s a good thing that Erica isn’t around because she wouldn’t like what I’m about to say. I think that Damon is letting his playoff performance go to his head. That double steal was beyond awesome, but it wasn’t worth 13m for the next 4 yrs. Let’s be honest here – Damon’s play in LF towards the end was downright scary. Not sure what the problem was, but he was actually a liability out there. It’s one thing for his throws to be horrible; they always have been so you can’t complain or be shocked by that. But for balls to consistently glance off of his glove….that to me was a cause for concern. He was right there, but still didn’t make the catch.
If given the choice, I’d give him one year guaranteed at 8m with a club option for the second year. That would be doing him a favor.
Mike Cameron got 2 years
Damon will definitely get 2. He is our only option at this point unless Cash wants to spend big $$$ on Holliday.
I just don’t get the Cameron love. A plus defender in his career, he’s one year older and will lose a step in the field as well as losing some arm strength. The degree is debatable, but age will dictate that he will decline.
As for his numbers, he’s a career .250/.340/.448/.788 hitter. Not exactly an all-star bat.
He’s a stop gap at best for Boston, and a downgrade from Jason Bay. His defense won’t be as big a factor in LF and he’s a worse bat.
“Would you go for Thome or Delgado? Those are the only LF DHs”
Thome – Also can’t play the field and might be slower than Matsui. Pass.
Delgado – Recovering from hip surgery and was nasty to Willie Randolph. Pass.
Aroldis Chapman topped out at 96 MPH today.
I agree that that package is too much for Victorino whom i’d love to have and Cash should be on the phone now seeing what could get it done!
The Phils need pitching both starting and relief that is cheap and cost controlled…
maybe an offer of Gardner,McCallister(ouch!),Melancon(ouch!)
play Shane in Cf and bat him 2nd with Grandy in LF and bat him sixth
Boras has us right where we want him. We NEED one of his clients. The other options (Cameron/Matsui) are gone.
Unless our plan is to replace Damon/Matsui with some combination of Miranda, Melky, and a broken down Vlad, we are going to need to sign Damon or Holliday. Damon won’t get 3-4 years, but he will get his 2 years guaranteed.
Dan,
I’d prefer Nick Johnson at this point.
“David Ortiz feasted on horrible pitching and couldn’t hit good pitching for most of last season.”
That’s the story of most good hitters, every year.
RC 16
December 15th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Mike Cameron got 2 years
Damon will definitely get 2. He is our only option at this point unless Cash wants to spend big $$$ on Holliday.
—————————
Except Cameron is a legit CF and Damon may be no more than a DH at this point
The DH market is slim pickings… everyone has flaws. All 3 are old, slow, and injury prone. Have to just pick one. Can’t be picky or we’ll end up with none of them and have Miranda at DH. or Damon at DH with Melky the full-time LFer.
So the cards offer is only five years now?
I don’t get why people want to sign a stopgap in LF. As CB and others have pointed out there is no viable LF option in the minors that projects to be anywhere near as good as Holliday. What are you holding the space for? Holliday is better than both Crawford and Werth which may not even be available next year. I don’t know if holliday fits in the budget, that’s not my decision but if he does then sign him, set up the outfield for several years and avoid this Lf problem again next offseason when the real pitching is available.
“So you can’t look at Holliday in an isolated fashion. They will most likely fill LF via free agency. And that really means either Holliday now or take a shot at Crawford next year.”
I disagree. I’m not going to get into trade options, who knows what could happen there. There are always corner outfielders available in the free agent market. The Yankees don’t need a left fielder that is going to have a .900 OPS and there were 23 corner outfielders that had an .800 OPS last year.
They don’t need the best left fielder, especially now that they’ve got Granderson in CF. Just this year alone you have Damon, Abreu, Cameron, Derosa, Church, and Ankiel ready to sign short term deals at under $10mil/year.
I’m not saying that any of those guys are going to produce like Holliday or Bay, but the Yankees will have the best offense in baseball anyway. But, it will allow the Yankees to be in on Cliff Lee next year when Pettitte needs to be replaced, or Felix Hernandez the following year.
Yea,
I really think the great conundrum of the Yankees right now is not LF but rather do they trust Joba and Hughes in the rotation immediately.
This is, in my opinion, the biggest decision they have to make.
The past 3 years have been grooming these guys to be the next big thing and It seems like both of them are finally at the place where they belong in the line-up and another year in the bullpen would severly hinder their development.
It actually wouldn’t surprise me if the Yanks do sign sheets or whoever that the other is a starter in AAA and not in the bullpen just to keep his arm stretched out.
And whoever it is in AAA will likely be furious.
Laura – So long, Matsui. You will be missed!
December 15th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
“Would you go for Thome or Delgado? Those are the only LF DHs”
Thome – Also can’t play the field and might be slower than Matsui. Pass.
Delgado – Recovering from hip surgery and was nasty to Willie Randolph. Pass
———————————
So you are going to completely rule out 2 very good baseball players because one is slow and the other may have been mean to Willie Randolph?
Ortiz is no longer a force, he is merely another bat in the lineup.
TUESDAY, 2:15pm: ESPN.com’s Buster Olney says the deal’s worth $87.5MM.
–MLBTR
Good article on FanGraphs about Lackey’s value. (SPOILER ALERT: He’s probably going to be overpaid…by a lot)
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....ith-boston
Don’t think the NYYs go after Holliday because they need the $$ flexibility to go after JM next year. The Yankees have enjoyed a plus player at C for these great years recently. IMHO, they are finally able to see strategic moves over several years with Cashman, and we will know if the JM option is possible very soon.
“Twins GM Bill Smith tells Kelsie Smith of the St. Paul Pioneer Press that his traditionally low-spending team has “substantial funds” to cover arbitration raises and potential signings that could raise Minnesota’s payroll into the $90MM neighborhood for next season. The general manager was predictably non-committal when asked if “substantial” translated to “enough to extend Joe Mauer.”
“Good article on FanGraphs about Lackey’s value. (SPOILER ALERT: He’s probably going to be overpaid…by a lot)”
Agreed, but the overpayment to Burnett sets Lackey’s market.
Emo
December 15th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
The DH market is slim pickings… everyone has flaws. All 3 are old, slow, and injury prone. Have to just pick one. Can’t be picky or we’ll end up with none of them and have Miranda at DH. or Damon at DH with Melky the full-time LFer.
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If they did not have flaws and were not old, slow, and injury prone they would not be DHs
Nick Johnson hit 5 HRs in 2008 and 8 HRs last year
Pass. We need power from the DH spot.
$18M for Holliday is a little much. His biggest attribute is that he has been very consistent throughout the years. To me, if you’re making nearly $20M a year, you need to do what he does, plus rack in the homers. Basically, if he hit 40 homers a year, he’d be near ARod territory offensively. So it’s a give and take.
But for 5/6 years, and around $15M a year, he is definitely worth it. I love the type of player he is offensively. He does everything.
Aroldis Chapman topped out at 96 MPH today.
==========
What? I thought he threw 99/100? It must have been when they were clocking him on the Irabu Radar Gun.
“How much better does this make you feel about the NYY’s chances of landing Holliday?”
tk,
Better. Right now the yankees are letting Holliday’s market define itself.
The cardinals have been the most active in setting that market.
If they feel that there isn’t much competition then it’s not a very vibrant market.
Which is the conditions required for the yankees to get involved.
The yankees did this last year with Tex. They let the market develop first.
This is critical for the yankees because it prevents Boras from using the yankees as a tool to up the going price point.
The yankees aren’t a spur to drive prices up because they aren’t entering the process directly.
They are watching and letting other teams set the going rate.
And once that going rate is set they know Boras will come to them as a final check.
And when that happens they can make a fully informed decision on whether or not they want to buy at that price.
With regard to Hollliday, it’s not the AAV, it’s the number of years.
Jerkface
“Ortiz is no longer a force, he is merely another bat in the lineup.”
You’re assuming that he won’t make regular visits to his chemist this offseason.
I hate all those options
Delgado – Will be 38, coming off surgery, on base and power platoon split
Thome – Will be 39, foot problems, heavy platoon split
Vlad – Runs like a grandma, reverse platoon split (so you can’t even platoon him with Miranda)
Nick Johnson hit 5 HRs in 2008 and 8 HRs last year
Pass. We need power from the DH spot.
—-
Nope. We get above average power from !B and 3B and way above average from C and 2B with RF also adding a devent amount
I’ll take a OBP machine and doubles hitter in my DH on this team any day.
Dalgado was mean to Willie Randolph… wahh wahh, let’s have a rotating DH instead so we can have an inferior hitter in the lineup every night rather than having a meanie in our lineup.
I am completely reading all these “leaks” that the Yankees are out on Matt Holliday to mean they are now IN on Matt Holliday.
If you paid attention last season, we were never going to sign Tex. We didn’t have room in the budget. Swisher was our starting 1b. Etc…
Then we signed him.
The Yankees have done a few things that are extremely curious to me.
They reach out publicly to Bay (who I think they have zero interest in).
They have a few writers they leak to come out with the “no chance on Holliday”.
And then the classic Cashman move that “Melky is our LF” leaks out.
To me, all three of those things mean the Yankees know the Cardinals are trying to get Holliday at Walmart prices.
CB posted exactly what I was thinking. You look at the future market when you look at Holliday.
Last night I said if the Yankees really believe they are players for Mauer or Crawford and are willing to wait, then Holliday won’t be pursued.
I don’t think the Yankees are going to wait. I think they got a taste of a championship again and they know what it means financially to the ball club.
Don’t be shocked if Holliday signs with us.
If he did Cashman would be a genius to add Matt Holliday and Curtis Granderson to his OF with only giving up 3 prospects.
As for Sheets, I hope he’s healthy and I hope he signs.
I don’t see Cashman making the same mistake he made in 2008 and guaranteeing Hughes and Joba rotation spots.
“Nick Johnson hit 5 HRs in 2008 and 8 HRs last year”
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bull****. Nick Johnson is a doubles machine who gets on base. If NYY signs him, he is a fine #2 or #5 hitter in this lineup.
Would you go for Thome or Delgado? Those are the only LF DHs.
————————————————–
There’s Adam Dunn “lite”–Jack Cust who might hit 30-40 homers ,with terrible OBP and lead league in strikeouts, playing for the Yankees
Nick Johnson hit 5 HRs in 2008 and 8 HRs last year
Pass. We need power from the DH spot.
–
I’d rather have a .300 hitter who will on base over .400 and can drive in runs with singles and doubles than any number of terrible old sluggers.
“I don’t know if holliday fits in the budget, that’s not my decision but if he does then sign him”
Totally agree…We’re getting to the point where Holliday is closer to the salary of Damon/Matsui than Tex. I think all of the comparisons between Tex & Holliday have actually served to weaken the market for Holliday and even cause people to underrate him. Obviously he’s not as valuable as Tex, but by the same token he’s vastly superior to Damon/Matsui. IMO he would a very nice addition at anything close to 5/90.
edit: who gets on base at an almost 50% clip
“So you are going to completely rule out 2 very good baseball players because one is slow and the other may have been mean to Willie Randolph?”
You only picked part of what I wrote, Lets Go. The Yankees claim that they want a DH who can also play the field. That rules out Thome. Delgado is recovering from hip surgery. That rules him out in my book.
Let me also add that any guy that can undermind a manager is not a good clubhouse guy. Our clubhouse harmony is at a very high level right now. I would rather not have Delgado corrupt that. So yeah, him being a lousy person to Willie Randolph does play a part.
Nick Johnson doesn’t scare you when he comes to the plate, Vlad does. Vlad can end a game with a HR. Johnson will only walk.
Nick Johnson had a wrist injury that zapped his power in 08-09. In 2010 he should have his power back
Nick Johnson hit 5 HRs in 2008 and 8 HRs last year
Pass. We need power from the DH spot.
–
I’d rather have a .300 hitter who will on base over .400 and can drive in runs with singles and doubles than any number of terrible old sluggers.
——
Haha, looks like Truck Driver drove himself right into some disdain with that comment.
So obviously false. If he’s willing to DH I would welcome him with open arms into this line-up. ESPECIALLY with Damon back as well.
“Dalgado was mean to Willie Randolph… wahh wahh, let’s have a rotating DH instead so we can have an inferior hitter in the lineup every night rather than having a meanie in our lineup.”
Carlos, is that you?
I’m 1,000% against a rotating DH, but that doesn’t mean I want just anybody in the spot either. Yeah, he was horrible to Willie. He is also recovering from hip surgery, which means that we have no idea what he can contribute. Pass!
Nick Johnson doesn’t scare you when he comes to the plate, Vlad does. Vlad can end a game with a HR. Johnson will only walk.
—–
What about when vlad strikes out on a junk pitch and ends the game?
I’ll take the man on base a lot of the time over the occasional home run any day. We will have plenty of dudes hitting behind NJ who can put the ball out of the park if he walks.
ughghghhghg….. Black Monday was brutal.
Mauve Tuesday is much more relaxing, however.
“Nick Johnson doesn’t scare you when he comes to the plate”
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he does when a pitcher knows he has to throw strikes, or else put him on base and then still have Tex, Arod, Posada, Cano, Swisher.
Nick Johnson is ideal.
SJ44
December 15th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
You aren’t getting Shane Victorino for anything less than at least one A List prospect or the Phillies won’t trade him.
Aceves, Nunez, Romine and Brackman ain’t gettin’ it done.
He’s got a ring, Gold Gloves and has been an all star.
Those guys don’t get traded for scraps.
——————————————————–
Hmm, SJ meet Curtis Granderson.
What about making that kid Trevor Hoffmann the fulltime LFer and Damon the fulltime DH?
Jeter
Damon
Tex
ARod
Posada
Granderson
Swisher
Cano
Hoffmann
Very solid lineup.
I can’t believe I didn’t jump on the Nick Johnson bandwagon earlier.
I am so totally on it now even tough I know it might be tough to land him because there is a definite market for his services at 1B
Johson/Damon/Sheets!!!!!!
Lets do IT!
Hmm, SJ meet Curtis Granderson.
–
Curtis Granderson doesn’t have a world series ring. FACT: For each world series ring a player possesses you must add 1 additional A list prospect.
Sign Damon as DH and part time outfielder and have Melky man LF for the most part. Then sign a FA Starting Pitcher to be our #4. We’d be all set for next year…we don’t need to trade for or sign any more big names this offseason. Our team is great.
Yankees Interested in Jason Bay?2
Comments
Say Something »
12/15/2009 11:54 AM ET By Tom Fornelli
Laura – So long, Matsui. You will be missed!
December 15th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
It’s a good thing that Erica isn’t around because she wouldn’t like what I’m about to say. I think that Damon is letting his playoff performance go to his head. That double steal was beyond awesome, but it wasn’t worth 13m for the next 4 yrs. Let’s be honest here – Damon’s play in LF towards the end was downright scary. Not sure what the problem was, but he was actually a liability out there. It’s one thing for his throws to be horrible; they always have been so you can’t complain or be shocked by that. But for balls to consistently glance off of his glove….that to me was a cause for concern. He was right there, but still didn’t make the catch.
If given the choice, I’d give him one year guaranteed at 8m with a club option for the second year. That would be doing him a favor.
*********
I caught you Laura!!!!!!!!!!!!
I understand much of what you are saying though. No one wants Johnny Damon back more than me. While my heart would love to see 4 more years of MPB Johnny Damon in pinstripes, I know this is not what is in the best interest of the Yankees.
However, I do think a 2 year deal would benefit everyone involved. (Especially ME!!!)
Victorino?
Pass.
Feinsand stated that the current payroll is at 180M, but who knows how accurate that is. Did it take into account arbitration raises for Cabrera, Gaudin, and Mitre? the 6.5M in raises due Cano, Jeter, and Swisher?
We need a starter [Sheets if healthy would be my choice], and let’s see if Joba comes to camp mentally and physically ready to compete for a starting job against Hughes.
If Damon does come back on a two year contract he’s primarily the DH, and we’ll just have to live with Melky as a corner fielder. Anyway we have our power replacement in CF.
Hoffman is only on the team until the end of spring training. The first team outing will be bare knuckle boxing and Mo will go to town on him.
Vrsce
December 15th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Yankees Interested in Jason Bay?2
Comments
Say Something »
12/15/2009 11:54 AM ET By Tom Fornelli
***********
As I commented before, its a ploy to scare Johnny Damon. Hopefully it works.
Ian Kennedy gets a press conference?
wow
If the Yankees have some extra cash in January I cannot see them passing up on someone like Thome/Delgado/Vlad/Dye
Edwin Jackson = pre madonna
OK. So the budget wont be 200Mill. Nobody believed it anyway. 200Mill is “soft” cap
not a “hard” one. One that can be changed with the addition of the right player ala Tex from last year. Maybe the combo of Holliday + Sheets is that combo. Cash goes to Hal with a similar argument to last year. Maybe a tougher sell the second time around but Hal need only look at last year’s decision to see if Cash has credilbility. Might happen.
Vrsce
December 15th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Yankees Interested in Jason Bay?2
Comments
Say Something »
12/15/2009 11:54 AM ET By Tom Fornelli
*******************
I hope not. I can’t stand Bay.
2:35pm: Mark Feinsand of the New York Daily News hears that the Yankees have no interest in signing Bay long-term. They don’t have confidence in his ability to play the outfield in a few years. Another source tells ESPN.com’s Buster Olney that there’s no chance the Yankees bid on Bay or Matt Holliday.
G. Love
December 15th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
“If he did Cashman would be a genius to add Matt Holliday and Curtis Granderson to his OF with only giving up 3 prospects.”
If Cashman does pull this off, he will have had a historically productive run. Just think about the difference between the 2007/2008 teams and the 2009/2010 teams…an absolutely amazing difference, transitioning from an aging, struggling franchise to one with young, cost-controlled power pitching as well as power-hitting position players in their prime. With that said, Cashman wouldn’t be hailed as a genius, I mean any idiot can resurrect a franchise with this payroll–makes you wonder why the Yankees never spent money until last year…
I’m going to miss Alfred E. Newman… wish he got more of a chance here with us.
Nick Johnson is an OBP machine who might just up his homers again hitting in Yankee stadium. He makes our line-up even tougher on the opposing pitcher. I don’t want anymore old guys at all.
I say forget Nick Johnson. Lets go with Nick in SF. His wrist is 100% and can develop into a power hitting threat.
“Curtis Granderson doesn’t have a world series ring. FACT: For each world series ring a player possesses you must add 1 additional A list prospect.”
******************************************************
that’s funny!
I like Victorino and would prefer him to Damon but if I’m Cash and call Ruben to discuss a possible trade and he tells me that it would take either Joba,Hughes or Jesus…i hang up immediately call his boss and tell on him then call my phone co. and have them charge the Phils for the call…
“Ian Kennedy gets a press conference?”
where’s granderson’s conference? damnit.
“I caught you Laura!!!!!!!!!!!!”
Erica, I was told that you weren’t around until the evenings these days. I’ve been busted!
Nick Johnson makes so much sense, it is scary.
Why has there been no buzz surrounding him and us?
Cashman is clueless if he is seriously going to rotate the DH.
G. Love,
I concur. I have no idea if the yanks will sign Holliday but I think they have engaged in the process of now valuating his market and doing so actively.
Before we heard absolutely no leaks whatsoever on LF. All of a sudden there are yankee leaks all over on this subject.
Joe Strauss last night reports that the Cards made an offer of “up to 8 years” for Holliday but they are concerned that the yankees are the main competition.
Today Olney reports the Cards offer was 5 years and conveniently reports that yankee have no interest.
This isn’t a coincidence.
In the end the yankees will allow a market price to develop for Holliday and decide whether or not that market price fits into what they want to do – both short term and long term.
Before when pursuing free agents the yankees used to enter the fray and help set the market. They are operating in a much smarter fashion – especially for the boras guys.
Last year they aggressively set the market for CC because that was in their strategic benefit. Then they allowed the market for Tex to develop so that in the end they could decide on whether or not to buy.
The Cards leaking their offer is the first big foray into setting Holliday’s price point.
The yankees are likely watching and waiting until they know a stable, equilibrium price has been set.
Phil
December 15th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
Nick Johnson is an OBP machine who might just up his homers again hitting in Yankee stadium. He makes our line-up even tougher on the opposing pitcher. I don’t want anymore old guys at all.
——————————————————–
and makes carl pavano look like Cal Ripken Jr in terms of DL visits
“Feinsand stated that the current payroll is at 180M, but who knows how accurate that is. Did it take into account arbitration raises for Cabrera, Gaudin, and Mitre? the 6.5M in raises due Cano, Jeter, and Swisher?”
Per Cots, they were at $170M before Granderson and Pettitte and are now at $187.5M. That number does not include arb for Cabrera or Gaudin or salary for the kids who haven’t hit arb yet. It does include raises to Swisher and Cano.
What about making that kid Trevor Hoffmann the fulltime LFer
=========
Would that make him Trevor Hoffman jr? Can we use him as the 8th inning guy while we’re at it? I asked this yesterday, can someone give me the scoup on this hoffman kid. I dont know anything about him.
Everything is coming up Nick Johnson.
I am so psyched about this even though Boston has been linked to him way more than the Yanks.
Lets set up the homecoming parade for Nick!
Nick Johnson would be ideal if i knew i could have him for 140 games as he’s a better hitter than Damon. His power should return the second year removed from the wrist surgery similar to how D Lee’s power came back last year and he would rake .300+ hitting behind Jeet and in front of Tex and ARod.
Forgive buster , he knows not what he says.
So basically, we have less than $10 mil to spend to keep it under $200 mil?
and makes carl pavano look like Cal Ripken Jr in terms of DL visits
-
Who has played more in the past 4 years? i’ll give you a hint, its Nick Johnson.
If it forces Vlad to cut off those horrendous braids then yes the Yanks should sign him.
Same thing with Pedro who’s looking more and more like Frankie Carbone from “Goodfellas” everyday.
If the Yankees could get Matt Holliday on a 5/16 deal then it might make sence.
Let’s just hope if they do, there’s still money for another pitcher.
IMHO, the Yankees need another arm or 2 more than Matt Holliday.
“I don’t want anymore old guys at all.”
Old guys = bad
Guys who move like old guys = good
Is this about the size of it???
Mark Feinsand is a real professional sports writer; he is generally accurate. Buster Olney is more of a cheerleader.
if vlad stays out of the field, may be interesting.
Laura – So long, Matsui. You will be missed!
December 15th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Erica, I was told that you weren’t around until the evenings these days. I’ve been busted!
*********************
Laura, I think Erica just has a sixth sense whenever anyone is criticizing the PBF.
“Same thing with Pedro who’s looking more and more like Frankie Carbone from “Goodfellas” everyday.”
LOL! He does have the Carbone do, doesn’t he? Crazy Phillies. Utley goes the barber and ask for The Gekko and Martinez requests Da Carbone.
S.o.S.: thanks for the vote of confidence… I’m a righty but I think I could learn Jeter’s inside-out swing and aim for that short porch. I don’t really help with the younger/more athletic thing, but I would work for the league minimum plus per diem and the chance to actively shop my comp tickets on stub-hub.
“and makes carl pavano look like Cal Ripken Jr in terms of DL visits”
————————————–
that is when he’s played the field. It is hard to injure yourself when you’re a DH. Even Paul Molitor stopped getting injuries when he DH only
Not crazy about signing 2 lefties to be the LF and DH. We need one lefty and one righty to balance the team.
I counted 178 mil with C-Grand and Pettiite but without any of the min. guys or arb. eligibles.
That’s why I said 16-18 mil to stay under 200 mil.
Admittedly, Ruben Amaro said a Halladay trade was very unlikely, so who knows? Is this just a game the Yankees are playing? If so, what do they hope to gain from it?
“Another source tells ESPN.com’s Buster Olney that there’s no chance the Yankees bid on Bay or Matt Holliday.”
If this were true, why would the Yankees leak it? Wouldn’t that only serve to weaken their leverage with Damon? It sure seems odd to me that we have heard more leaks about the Yankees’ LF situation today than we have all offseason. Additionally, this is occurring at a point where Holliday’s market has become pretty clearly defined…it just seems reminiscent of how they played the market for Tex last year. They waited patiently, then leaked denials of interest–ditto for Holliday this year–then Cashman, the big game hunter that he is, pounced–hopefully that part will play out the same this year too.
Some people never learn.
Last winter all you idiots were clamoring and arguing about who would be signed to play CF. Obviously Melky was completely unacceptable to you guys, right? How did that turn out?
Now after Melky has a good year (don’t tell me .280 and a good defensive CF isn’t a good year) and they essentially add Granderson to replace Damon, now all of a sudden Melky isn’t acceptable to play LF?
Its the same freaking argument as last year only now Melky has another year under his belt. The only difference is this year he’s going to play LF and not CF.
Its common sense to me and I don’t see why you’re all so blind to the facts. They can’t add another huge contract. Bay and Holliday simply aren’t worth it. And most importantly, they don’t NEED either player. They have Melky, Gardner, and Hoffman to fill out the OF.
Say they sign Holliday, what happens to all those guys? Do they trade Melky? Trade Swisher? Because no way do they keep all of them.
The Yankees need a DH and another back end starter. THAT’S IT.
Those that think more is coming are delusional and likely to be extremely dissapointed. Cash will get destroyed on this board for “sitting on his hands” when last week he was a genius.
Wake up and try and comprehend a little dose of reality.
Not crazy about signing 2 lefties to be the LF and DH. We need one lefty and one righty to balance the team.
–
There are no good righties to be had. Unless we sign Holliday + Johnson, which would be amazing but unrealistic.
Its more likely we get 1 of Damon/Johnson + Sheets
Busters source as always is peter gammons
bay and holliday are overpriced.
vlad should be available for 5 mil like abreu was last year. if it comes down to the dh spot, i think he would be a threat behind a-rod, as long as he doesnt see a day in the field.
hard time explaining to fans how the ended up with him when they could have had matsui doing the same thing.
Vlad IS a threat though, and alex would see more good pitches.
re: Melky | don’t tell me .280 and a good defensive CF isn’t a good year
–
ok but I will tell you that .330/.416 isn’t a great year.
I don’t get the fascination with these marginal players.
Nick Johnson stinks and is always hurt.
Mike Cameron is 38 and a strikeout machine.
Vlad is essentially Matsui from the right hand side.
Delgado is coming off hip surgery and has a bad attitude.
The Yankees don’t need any of these guys. Its not even close IMO.
“I counted 178 mil with C-Grand and Pettiite but without any of the min. guys or arb. eligibles.”
Technically, I think Igawa’s $4M counts against the big club number. So do Brackman and Miranda, who both have MLB deals. All 3 add up to a little less than $5.5M
Sheets or Duscherer (however it is spelled), and vlad, and someone reasonable for the bench. they will be set.
don’t really help with the younger/more athletic thing, but I would work for the league minimum plus per diem and the chance to actively shop my comp tickets on stub-hub.
========
Consider me as your agent Nick and i can have them throw in all you can eat cotton candy/slim jim, hell all the junk food supplied in the locker room.
“Today Olney reports the Cards offer was 5 years and conveniently reports that yankee have no interest.
This isn’t a coincidence”
————————————-
how is it not a coincidence? Buster Onley is a double-agent for the yankees? My bad for the sarcasm, however i believe people read in too much
I actually like Vlad better than the other DH options available. If he could be a straight DH then I think there is a chance for a little resurgance from him. He doesn’t strike out much and he still can hit for power and average. Plus he probably would come fairly cheap. if they did get clad to DH do you flip tex and arod to keep the lefty right thing going?
I don’t get the fascination with these marginal players.
Nick Johnson stinks and is always hurt.
Mike Cameron is 38 and a strikeout machine.
Vlad is essentially Matsui from the right hand side.
Delgado is coming off hip surgery and has a bad attitude.
The Yankees don’t need any of these guys. Its not even close IMO.
—
Wow you did not just diss Nick the Stick aka On Base Jesus aka Nick Johnson.
In what way does a perennial .800+ OPS stink? Do you hate that he gets on base 40% of the time? He broke his leg and hurt his wrist, he is not pulling hammies running the bases. His injury proneness is overrated, he is a slow healer, not easily injured.
And you are talking about MELKY being a good player? Get out of here.
A rude Lohud poster, one Miggs
consistently fouls this site with his digs.
If he knew baseball at all
he’d pick up his ass and haul
it all the way back to his pigs
Melky is a 4th OF. Johnson is an all-star DH.
Wake me up when Melky hits .290 and has a .400 OBP.
“In what way does a perennial .800+ OPS stink? Do you hate that he gets on base 40% of the time? He broke his leg and hurt his wrist, he is not pulling hammies running the bases. His injury proneness is overrated, he is a slow healer, not easily injured.
And you are talking about MELKY being a good player? Get out of here”
—————————————-
miggs was on a role the past day. But he lost me here
oh really?
I was thinking of a 1 year low dollar deal, not 4/49M.
dont flip 3 and 4. tex benefitted a lot from alex behind him.
jeter (r)
granderson (l)
tex (s)
arod (r)
vlad (r)
posada (s)
cano (l)
swish (s)
melky (s)
All works nicely.
I’m going to be sick to my stomuck if Boston gets Chapman. Then we know for sure there is a budget and that is a real problem.
Would hate to see a 100 MPH flamethrower in the Sox system. We never get a chance to draft those players. Too bad, it seems the Sox can afford anyone and we have to ‘scale back’.
Buster_ESPN
Official with knowledge of the Yankees’ thinking said there is “not a chance” the team bids for Holliday or Bay this winter
ed_price
Cuban defector Aroldis Chapman today, in side session in Houston: 93-96 mph, abv avg slider & change. Person there: “He’s got the package.”
** I want Chapman
A-rod kills lefites and righties, vlad kills righties but isn’t as good vs lefties. Having back to back righties isn’t going to mean anything if we had Vlad (which I dont want).
“how is it not a coincidence?”
Because the yankees likely leaked this to Olney today in response to Strauss’s article yesterday.
That’s why.
The Yankees don’t leak for no reason or simply to get attention.
They’ve been extremely quiet about LF up to now with their attention focused on Damon.
All of the leaks today aren’t simply a random occurrence.
“Johnson is an all-star DH.”
He is not. Jeez.
then vs lefties, you put posada 5th and vlad 6th. whatever works.
Laura – So long, Matsui. You will be missed!
December 15th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
“I caught you Laura!!!!!!!!!!!!”
Erica, I was told that you weren’t around until the evenings these days. I’ve been busted!
******
I am not supposed to be on, but as we inch closer to the end of my last work week of 2009, I am having a wee bit trouble focusing
Miggs,
I have to disagree. Melky was fine in centerfield, where power is not needed or looked at as much. We just lost quite a bit of dingers(2 players)this offseason and have replaced one of them with Granderson. I think Melky could be fine in left if they were to resign Damon as dh or pick someone up that can carry the remainder of the missing load. I just think they will end up using the dh spot for resting players or they get someone cheap like Vlad in the 12th hour. Just dont see Vlad having much left, so left field will have to be the only option.
Bowl and Betsy are one. Do not get fooled
vlad isnt the first choice, but cant argue with results. he has a .321 average lifetime and .380 OBP. keep him off the field and healthy and that is a threat behind a-rod.
Bowl, I can see the Sox guaranteeing him a Major League contract. I think Hal and Cash are not inclined to spend this much $$$ on an unproven youngster, so I would be very surprised if the Yankees signed him ….and it would be a shame.
“The Yankees don’t leak for no reason or simply to get attention.”
“All of the leaks today aren’t simply a random occurrence.”
Can both of these be true??
If Jim Thome can scare pitchers just enough to throw ARod strikes then he’s the man for the job.
Sheets and Thome!
vlad isnt the first choice, but cant argue with results. he has a .321 average lifetime and .380 OBP. keep him off the field and healthy and that is a threat behind a-rod.
–
He compiled those lifetime numbers when he was healthy and youthful. He runs like a grandma now and has a bad back and bad knees. His On Base was worse last year.
Bowl,
In an earlier post someone posted that Chapman was clocked at 96. It was either the Yes gun or they were not using the Irabu gun. He might be all hype for all we know.
Michael Kay making sense at this time.
God bless him
Yankees have no real interest in Bay, but will continue to see if Holliday fits their budget. But I’m inclined to think that there won’t be any more big contracts this offseason.
Cash will add a veteran starter, and a bullpen arm. I don’t even think he adds a DH until mid-January, if at all.
Hal is becoming a real problem here. I like that he lets Cash do his job and doesn’t intervene, but seesh, enough with this budget talk already.
He is making Brian’s life difficult too because Cashman now can’t go for the best players he wants because he has to adhere to Hal’s budget and probably feels uneasy asking him to keep giving him more $$$. He confirmed that Hal has said no to deals before because of money.
George would tell Brian he can spend as much as he wants, just put a winner on the field. I get that Hal wants to make a profit but let Cashman do his job. He should decide how much money to spend, not you.
Missing out on Chapman because of $$ and watching the Sox get him, in addition to other big moves this winter, would be a shame.
Because the yankees likely leaked this to Olney today in response to Strauss’s article yesterday.
That’s why.
The Yankees don’t leak for no reason or simply to get attention.
===========
Man i guess bobcat was right. They only tell you what they want you to hear. All this time people were not taking him seriously. My bad bobcat.
Austin Jackson. A List prospect, and the #2 overall for the Yankees.
Like I said, you aren’t getting Victorino for scraps.
I don’t think Cash wants to tie up a lot of years and $$$ in Holliday.
He seems obsessed with rotating the DH too.
He compiled those lifetime numbers when he was healthy and youthful. He runs like a grandma now and has a bad back and bad knees. His On Base was worse last year.
=========
Who would win in a footrace to second?
Vlad
Matsui
Molina
Posada(who iv seen smash walls and stay put with a single)
Melky is fine for what they need when you look at the rest of the team.
Someone has to bat 9th. LOL.
You can’t have 9 all stars. Whether he plays LF or CF makes no difference when you look at the rest of the lineup. Either way, he hits 9th.
As for Nick Johnson…again maybe I’m missing something. He’s slow, spends a lot of time on the DL, and can only play 1B when he doesn’t DH. How many guys do we need to play 1st? Tex, Swisher are already here.
So your reasons for passing on Matsui directly conflict with your reasons for signing Nick Johnson. Again, as the team is currently configured he can only DH or spell Tex at 1st. If that’s the case, why not just keep Matsui?
Its just baffling to me how everyone just jumps on the bandwagon to get a certain guy when logically it makes absolutely no sense.
Guys, you can’t have everyone
Can’t have Chapman, and Holliday, and Damon, and Sheets, and Vlad, and NJ, and Duschester.
Cash has a budget he has to abide by. Cash has to decide which guys will make the most impact within his budget.
S.o.S.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Who would win in a footrace to second?
Vlad
Matsui
Molina
Posada
*********************
That would be one interesting race.
I don’t know who would win, but my money’s on Molina coming in last. lol
Cash has to work with a budget, just like every other business manager does. His is just a bit bigger than mine.
I’d like to see the focus on pitching for a bit, while this LF/DH issue gets resolved. I see interest in Ben Sheets, as reported in several sites, but I think they should also be interested in Mike Gonzalez, a lefty, and Matt Capps, a righty.
Of course, if either Joba or Hughes are in the pen, then no additional bullpen signings are really needed, so they have to resolve the #4 starter first.
Assuming Bay signs with the Mariners. What are the chances of pulling a Melky for Ichiro trade which would in turn give the Mariners some money relief to resign Felix and maybe Lee? It would also take the sting out of the multi year deal for Bay. Thoughts?
“Assuming Bay signs with the Mariners. What are the chances of pulling a Melky for Ichiro trade which would in turn give the Mariners some money relief to resign Felix and maybe Lee?”
0%
Anyone complaining about the Yankees budget needs to GTFO.
Are you people serious. The Yankees have the highest payroll by a LARGE margin. We signed the 3 best free agents on the market last year.
Oh no. The payroll is so tight. We cannot have every free agent. We cannot have Chapman. What are we to do with a 200 million dollar payroll
You people are the reason most baseball fans HATE Yankee fans.
S.o.S.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Assuming Bay signs with the Mariners. What are the chances of pulling a Melky for Ichiro trade which would in turn give the Mariners some money relief to resign Felix and maybe Lee? It would also take the sting out of the multi year deal for Bay. Thoughts?
———————————————————–
Um, none. Zip. Zero. No chance.
Thanks squidward. Way to kill my proposal. All i was trying to do is get us away from the Holliday/Vlad talks. O.K. Ill throw in Gritty Gutty Slappy.(spit)Lets shake on it!
“Anyone complaining about the Yankees budget needs to GTFO.
Are you people serious. The Yankees have the highest payroll by a LARGE margin. We signed the 3 best free agents on the market last year.
Oh no. The payroll is so tight. We cannot have every free agent. We cannot have Chapman. What are we to do with a 200 million dollar payroll
You people are the reason most baseball fans HATE Yankee fans.”
Amen. I posted something very similar on the Yogi thread.
If we can’t ‘make do’ with a $200 million payroll, we have a problem.
Right now Melky is the #3 outfielder and the team does not have a defined DH.
Filling the DH spot with a hitter that is better than Melky is not that hard.
I think the idea is to fill the DH role with a guy that can play in the outfield in place of Melky when one of the others needs a 1/2 day off and DH.
Johnnie Damon is the best fit for this roll and we all are hoping he comes back.
The Yankees also need to spend $$ on 1 or 2 more arms so an upgrade in the outfield in place of Melky and a full time DH is not the idea.
Sui was the guy if the Yankees were going with a full time DH so no way we’ll se Vlad or Tome are anyother DH only guy.
I have no idea whether the Yankees have money for Holliday. I think not. I wish it were otherwise since the point of no upper or even mid-minor outfielders in the system is quite true.
I think the “wait for next years free agents” is overplayed. Simply stated, their is no way to know who will be available then. Every free agent list for next year should say possible free agent. I bet Lee does sign, Mauer does sign and Crawford may well be traded and signed. Hallady, whom most were saying the Yankees should wait to sign him next year, will not be available. Expect more of the same.
quote of the day – full of irony:
. . .. I wish Posada would keep quiet.
To the poster who said that PO said Joba should be in the pen. That is true. HOWever, he later changed his mind. I think it was after the Detroit game when he and Joba fell all over themselves complimenting each other. He even named Joba’s five (count them) pitches.
Incomplete statements about any Yankee player is not acceptable.
Cot salaries are bogus. They prorate signing bonuses and add them to current salaries. Sabathia & Tex got their bonuses last year not in 2010…
Rotation
23M Sabathia, 16.5M Burnett, 11.75M Pettitte
Bullpen
4M Marte, 15M Rivera
Lineup
9M Cano, 5.5M Granderson, 6.8M Swisher, 20M Teix, 33M Arod, 21M Jeter, 13.1M Posada
Extended Roster
400K 12 minor leaguers on split contracts, 858K Brackman, 400K Miranda
^^^^^^^^ 180.2M Right now
Count me in as a Nick Johnson man. I never wanted to see him leave in the Javier Vasquez deal but that was then and now is now and guess what ? Nick Johnson can still hit and won’t be 32 until next September.
He won’t hit as many HR’s as Matsui did but he’s always been a very good alley hitter and run producer.
It’s funny but Nick Johnson’s name was rarely mentioned on a thread from this board until Matsui was gone.
C’mon Brian Cashman. The DH is there for the taking.
So your reasons for passing on Matsui directly conflict with your reasons for signing Nick Johnson. Again, as the team is currently configured he can only DH or spell Tex at 1st. If that’s the case, why not just keep Matsui?
Its just baffling to me how everyone just jumps on the bandwagon to get a certain guy when logically it makes absolutely no sense.
……………………………..
Sorry Miggs but seeing as Matsui has left for L.A., Nick Johnson’s name does come in to play at least until the DH question has been solved.
I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but some article in Taiwan reported that Wang turned down a minor-league offer from the Yankees.
http://english.rti.org.tw/Cont.....ntID=92276
When did George Will become a baseball man except in his own mind?
Interleague play limited to a 3 game home & home with one natural rival.
Twi-night double headers every Sunday to shorten season.
Umpire stats published just like player stats, post- season assignments on merit.