What’s next?
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 15, 2009 
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A flurry of signings and one major trade significantly changed the offseason landscape on Monday. Today, the international market could take shape as Aroldis Chapman is scheduled to throw a bullpen session for several teams, including the Yankees.
Chapman is the top international player on the market. He’s a 22-year-old lefty who has hit 102 mph with his fastball, and he could be in the big leagues sooner rather than later, but I’ve talked to one executive who feels Chapman is still too raw to pitch in the big leagues right away. His command isn’t where it needs to be, and when Chapman defected from Cuba, the ESPN.com article announcing the move called his secondary pitches “average” and said there are questions about his maturity.
All of that might explain today’s bullpen session. Chapman is so highly touted and has pitched in so many international events, scouts have seen him plenty of times. If he were a sure thing to pitch in the big leagues this year, he’d almost certainly be signed already. I’m not knocking the guy — he may very well be the top prospect in baseball by the middle of next year – but he might not be an instant game-changer.
Brian Cashman has said the Yankees do not consider Cashman a target for next year’s rotation. It doesn’t mean the Yankees aren’t interested, just means — if they get him – they’re more likely to start him in the minor leagues than push him instantly to New York. Pushing Kei Igawa into the major league rotation didn’t work out so well in 2007. Neither did pushing Ian Kennedy and Phil Hughes into the big league rotation in 2008, when they had only 11 Triple-A starts between them.
Keep an eye on Chapman because he has a huge arm and a ton of potential, but don’t count on him as a guy who can impact next year’s big league rotation. At least not in April. He’d be a great addition to the system, but he might not change much about the Yankees’ current starting pitching situation.
Re-sign Morgan Engsberg!!!!!!!
It will be interesting to see if they end up signing Chapman. They changed their whole approach in IFA this season past season as soon as he defected.
“Brian Cashman has said the Yankees do not consider Cashman a target for next year’s rotation.”
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you mean Chapman, right?
I consider it funny that Cashman is considering himself as a target for next year’s rotation.
The secondary question is will he ultimately end up as a starter or a reliever.
These international signings work about 25% of the time. No one ever lives up to their hype. Let someone else be on the hook for the cash.
Well, good thing that “Black Monday” is over with.
Not that it was disastrous for the Yankees, because it wasn’t, but a number of options are now off the table which may motivate Cashman to get some things settled quickly.
Is there a # 4 starter that makes sense? Is it time to reconsider Holliday who would make less than Matsui + Nady did a year ago?
Hmmmmm
kbar
December 15th, 2009 at 8:27 am
I consider it funny that Cashman is considering himself as a target for next year’s rotation.
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LOL
Cash can do it all.
in light of the Cardinals offer to Matt Holliday.
maybe the most pertinent question today is, will Albert Pujols remain in ST Louis??
I believe it’s a fair question for this reason: Companies (teams) normally don’t abruptly change their profit margin and business model. The offer to Matt Holliday is crazy. I am happy for Cardinals fans, however i have to wonder if they will also open the bank vault for Pujols.
interesting
I think Cashman was his Little Leagues teams #4 starter.
“I think Cashman was his Little Leagues teams #4 starter.”
In a 3 man(kid) rotation.
SJ:
please tell me the Yankees will not sign Jason Bay
I wouldn’t believe a thing Cashman says right now. Whatever he’s really thinking is probably quite different than anything coming out of his mouth now.
Well, Cash really needs to get another good bat. 180 RBI’s and 55HR walked out the door with Matsui + Damon and Granderson only partially mitigates that loss.
I don’t like Bay because his defense stinks, so that leaves Damon and Holliday.
Rotation depth is a must now, considering Boston’s rotation is:
Beckett
Lackey
Lester
Dice-K
Wake / Bucholtz
That’s a very scary rotation…I hate to say it.
“Is it time to reconsider Holliday”
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did you see the offer the cardinals made him? If the yankees matched or exceeded that offer, they would deserve to be in the cellar the next 10 years.
“SJ:
please tell me the Yankees will not sign Jason Bay”
I think Holliday is the true target. Bay is the fallback position.
“did you see the offer the cardinals made him? If the yankees matched or exceeded that offer, they would deserve to be in the cellar the next 10 years.”
That offer isn’t that great except for the number of years which is 8, but it’s unclear if some of those years are options or not.
no man yankees rotation 2010:
sabby
Pettite
Burny
CASHYPOO
AND…..
ROSS OHLENDORF
no man yankees rotation 2010:
sabby
Pettite
Burny
CASHYPOO
AND…..
ROSS OHLENDORF
vinny b
I think if the Cards really want to keep Pujols, they have to try to keep Holliday. Pujols has said he wants to play on a contender.
Betsy
I sincerely hope you are not calling me an idiot for saying that Halladay going to the Phillies is good for the Yankees. The Yankees were not going to get him w/o giving up serious prospects. If he was to go anywhere in the AL (especially in the AL east) it would hurt the Yankees. Halladay going to the Phillies means the Yankees will only have to face him if/when they meet in the WS. And the Phillies gave up Cliff Lee, so they are trading an ace for an ace. And there is the possibility the Yankees could pick Lee up next year when he becomes a FA. So other than the Yankees getting Halladay w/o giving anyone up (which wasn’t going to happen), I think this is the best case scenario.
“That offer isn’t that great except for the number of years which is 8, but it’s unclear if some of those years are options or not”
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well that’s kinda the point, crawdaddy. When you add up the total value of the contract, the money is crazy.
repost from previous thread)
Seriously this forum is a good place to stay away from if you don’t have the energy to deal with high illogic and misguided drama.
1. I too am really sorry to see Sui go. I wanted him back in the worst way. I am happy that he at least got his ring.
2. The Sux signings – BFD. I see we are going to have to watch the usual suspects quake through yet another season.
3. I’m happy Doc went to Philly. Good for Philly. Takes him out of the AL. If it’s true that they’re sending Lee to Seattle, for me that’s at least a head scratcher.
4. As far as I can see it (and without any trepidation) at this point our rotation is CC, AJ, Andy, Joba, and Phil. Our backup is Gaudin, with Mitre in the wings. I have always heard that the Yankees plan is to have both Joba and Phil in the rotation. Anyone else hear anything different? If that’s the case, kiddies, you certainly don’t go out and get a top-flight starter and then bench him. ONLY IF the Yankees don’t plan to use Joba or Phil as starters this season would it make sense to be searching for a 1-5 starter. Or, as some people have suggested, if the Yanks were going to use Phil or Joba as trade bait.
While I know that Yankees know infinitely more than I do about what is best for the team, I was certainly voting for keeping Phil and Joba – the youth and future of our pitching staff. If that be the case, you’re not in the market for another starter unless your intention is to put Phil and/or Joba in the pen. If they are in the starting rotation, YOU DON’T GET ANOTHER STARTER TO SIT IN THE PEN. That’s really not fair to the starter, is it?
Brian Cashman put together the team that won the world series in 2009. IMO rational fans might continue to sleep well knowing that Cashman will be helping to put together the team that will win the world series in 2010. Yes I have already called it. The man knows what he is doing. The fact that fans don’t know what will happen next is of little moment.
About Doc and other players. The craziest stuff I see here is for fans to decide they want certain players on the team and then spin out of control and lose all faith in Cashman when it doesn’t happen. If you’re smarter than Cashman at putting togther the Yankee team, submit your resume. Otherwise realize that your wishlist is just that – YOUR wishlist, based on your own musings. And if you’re someone who spun out of control all of last season, I can’t even pay attention to your musings since they were obviously misguided all of last season and nothing tells me you’ve gathered your wits any better now!
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Yankees will win it all again next season. I will happily continue to enjoy the offseason knowing that by opening day they will have all the players in place to get the job done.
Halladay going to the Phillies means the Yankees will only have to face him if/when they meet in the WS.
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kate, and the series they play against them in June. I only know this because it falls on my birthday.
“did you see the offer the cardinals made him? If the yankees matched or exceeded that offer, they would deserve to be in the cellar the next 10 years.”
They may not have to match or exceed it. The NYY are his first choice. They may just have to be competitive.
kate-
The Phillies come to Yankee Stadium the June 15,16, and 17 after a stint in Boston the 11th, 12th, and 13th. I’m sure the rotation will be set up to have Yankee fans enjoy seeing him once before the WS!!!!!
lol too bad this isnt a forum
trisha:
thankful to have an additional person on this site, who is sane
agree with all the points you have mentioned. In particular, your take on the rotation (ie your willingness to go with what we have)
trisha – OPPC forever – (new lucky picture from last day at the old Stadium) BRING ON THE GHOSTS!
December 15th, 2009 at 8:48 am
repost from previous thread)
1. I too am really sorry to see Sui go. I wanted him back in the worst way. I am happy that he at least got his ring.
******************
you and me both. Matsui is one of my favorites. I was SO disappointed yesterday, but I’ve sadly come to accept that he was never really a part of their plans for 2010. But he sure couldn’t have topped his Yankee career off any better!
Rich in NJ-
Are the NYY Hollidays or his fathers first choice? I haven’t read anywhere anything from him or Boras indicating a preference for NYY.
I question the structure of the 8/16M offer to Holliday.
It appears that the Boras camp is not too thrilled with the Cards’ offer. If it is because of the AAV, the Yankees can beat that with 18M per year, maybe for 5 years. It they are unhappy with the overall value, I would like to see the Yanks stay away. I wouldn’t want to see Holliday locked up for more than 5 years. Maybe 6, if that year is some kind of option.
It is also possible that the offer only has 6 guaranteed, with 2 backloaded option years. If that is the case, 5 years at 18 per is a competitive offer.
Yankee Trader
December 15th, 2009 at 8:52 am
Rich in NJ-
Are the NYY Hollidays or his fathers first choice? I haven’t read anywhere anything from him or Boras indicating a preference for NYY.
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I’ve read numerous times that his dad is a big NYY fan, and always wanted Matt to play for them. Whether or not he feels the same way, I have no idea.
Will the yankees really top a 8/16m offer?Not likely right?
No way St Louis gave a straight 8 year deal to Holliday, must have options and backended money. One it means they face issues with Big Al when he looks for a long term deal for much more. They can’t afford two massive contracts and then sprinkle the infield with no cash. It probably is a 5 year deal with options. I bet if the Yankees wanted to, they could possibly offer more up front cash and make it more attractive. What they can’t do is offer another long term deal to a guy like him. I think Holliday would fit nicely in the lineup, but not at that length of a deal. I would much rather give a Carl Crawford that type of deal being a special talent next year. Or take Cabrera’s contract off the Tigers for that matter.
Yankee Trader
http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....off-18616/
Yankee Trader and Erin- OK, OK, so the Yankees will have to face Halladay once during interleague, it is still a lot less than if he was still w/ Toronto, or any other AL team
Will you get to go to the game on your birthday Erin?
Erin,
Please check out the above link as well.
I don’t think the Yankees will top 8/16M as I’ve read that they have 20M to spend and still stay under 200M.
However for the right player and a chance to go back to the WS, I would think the Yankees might up their payroll for the signing that might put them over the top.
Is Holliday that guy? or do they keep money in reserve for a July deal for another player??
Interestingly with regards to Carlos Beltran and his, I believe 119M, deal with the Mets, Boras came back to Cashman at the last minute and told him Beltran would take some 20+M less to play with them.
Chapman can be signed w bonus money that won’t count towards cap payroll true?
kate-I don’t think so. I live in Illinois, and I am going to try to get to New York this summer, but probably not in time for my birthday. The Yankees present to me can be winning the game on the 16th. lol
vinny-b thanks. We usually figure things the same way!
The thing that makes me a bright light here is that I am wise enough to have faith that the Yankees know how to put together a team! I was good to go all of last season, 8 losses in a row, as well as up by 4.5 in first. I can’t manage to worry about much at this point.
As I said, to me the least sane thing for a fan to do is decide what he or she wants to happen and then spin out of control when it doesn’t. Cashman is a pretty bright guy.
Gotta run, but I will catch you later. Keep the sanity going!
Rich in NJ
December 15th, 2009 at 9:02 am
Erin,
Please check out the above link as well.
***************
Thanks Rich. Good article.
“Chapman can be signed w bonus money that won’t count towards cap payroll true?”
.
As long as he signs a mL contract
Erin — which day? I’m the 15th… same as Andy Pettite, just a bunch of years earlier.
Trisha, if the Yanks acquire a starter it is with the intention of putting either Joba or Phil in the pen, not benching a starter.
The Yanks need a bat, but there are a bunch of bats out there right now and they still have most of their trade chips if they want to deal for one.
I don’t think anyone is panicking, but the need to get some things done does become a bit more urgent after all those options were taken off the table.
Of course, something weird is going on when these “deals” are still not yet quite done.
Rich in NJ-
Thanks for finding that article for me. He’s from Oklahoma, the great state that produced my “idol” Mickey Mantle!!
Cashman does seem clear that he has a budget. I very much like Holliday, but I don’t see the Yankees spending over $100M on him. The St. Louis Dispatch article says he wants to return to the Cards. I don’t expect him here and that’s why Cashman has now contacted Bay.
Bay’s splits show he hit many more home runs on the road than at home. He has unquestioned power, but I hate to see another poor defender in LF. Maybe he could primarily DH, but thatg is a fortune for a DH. DeJesus, anyone?
86w183
December 15th, 2009 at 9:06 am
Erin — which day? I’m the 15th… same as Andy Pettite, just a bunch of years earlier.
**************
You’re the same as my dad. He’s the 15th, and I’m the 16th. He always has to rub it in that he’s the one that shares a birthday with Andy (who’s one of my favorites). I used to get very jealous when I was younger. lol
It seems we are playing the Phillies every year.
Mantle and Bobby Murcer were both from Oklahoma. And Allie Reynolds also lived their most of his life.
Of course, something weird is going on when these “deals” are still not yet quite done.
————————————————-
I think it’s safe to assume this three way deal happens unless the medical reports come back with questions on Lee and/or Halladay. The other holdup is MLB signing off on the money exchanged in the deal as Toronto appears to be paying Part of Doc’s 2010 salary, plus the structure of the extension. They have 72 hours to complete all this.
My 2010 opening night lineup pls comment with yours
SS Jeter
CF Granderson
LF Swisher
3B Arod
1B Tex
2B Cano
C Posada
DH Miranda
RF Melky
If Damon comes back I’ll put Melky 8th & Damon 9th as the DH to be the 2nd lead off hitter
Now to bosox
SS Scutaro
2B Pedroia
C Martinez
1B Yukilis
RF Drew
3B Lowell
DH Ortiz
CF Cameron
LF Elsberry
If Lowell gets traded its like this:
SS Scutaro
2B Pedroia
1B Martinez
3B Yukilis
RF Drew
CF Cameron
DH Ortiz
C Veritek
LF Elsberry
3 starters
CC-Becket
AJ-Lackey
Andy-Lester
I’m picking the yanks any time against boston, how about you???
I don’t want Holliday. I think he’s an NL guy who won’t excel in the AL. Let the Cardinals have him.
It’s not a three way deal. It’s two separate deals. One between the Phillies and Jays and another between the Phillies and Seattle.
Laura,
I think you may be taking park effects for league effects.
would be suprised if Boras doesn’t target and get at least 6 years for Holliday. From a NYY prospective this Holliday talk is all about nothing
people need to wise up, bostons rotation goes beckett lester lackey. and no other way.
and don’t cry over matsui, his production is easily replaced.
Speaking of great players from Oklahoma, Warren Spahn was from there. His daughter-in-law, Miss Wilson, was my fifth grade teacher. If I had known that at the time, I would certainly have asked to meet him. Ah well.
Yeah cause there are 130 OPS+ hitters just falling out of the sky this offseason.
Any chance of the Yankees being able to put a package together (that’s not too painful) to get Carl Crawford for left field? You gotta figure that Tampa is not a serious contender to re-sign him to a pricey long-term contract after this season so maybe they’ll be willing to deal(?) If that’s possible, then try to sign Sheets for 8M – 9M. I’ll take that line-up/rotation combination over Boston’s any day of the week.
To say Holliday is an NL guy only is, at the least, based on incomplete analysis. He played in the best hitter’s park in baseball, then he went to the worst. He had a bad start, which is to be expected when switching leagues. His numbers from May until the trade were very good. After the trade, in a fair park, he hit great. Don’t forget that the A’s lineup is dreadful, his protection was the soon to be released washed-up Giambi.
We would be getting a hitter who has gone through the AL growing pains already, and should be ready to go. Also, YS is, of course, a very good hitter’s park, even for a right hand batter. From last year, it seems even Death Valley ain’t what it used to be.
Hideki Matsui: BA .274 — OBP .367 — slg .509 — RBI 90 — HR 28 — OPS+ 131
How is that easily replaced exactly? There are guys who can replace it, but come on that’s a damn good hitting line.
Holliday had a bad month of April last year- .648 OPS, .240 BA, OBP under .300.
But, from May 1st until the day he was traded he hit .299BA. 400OBP. .480SLG .880OPS..
He can hit in the A.L.
and don’t cry over matsui, his production is easily replaced.
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Besides his production he was great protection for Alex. The Yankees need another bat for the #5 spot.
Jay….. you’ll never ever ever ever ever win guess the lineup of that I’m sure. No way Swish bats ahead of Tex unless he’s in the 2 hole and that’s only in case of injury.
Rich, does that mean Chapman couldnt start season in AAA?
I think there was meant to be sticker shock with the Cards offer to Holliday. What isn’t known is the structure of that offering, and if it includes a number of options/incentives/backloaded amount of money, all of which can change the true value of the offer.
I question if any player really means it when it gets reported that they want to stay anywhere.
The Cards might put themselves in a big bind with that contract offer as well. It sets up Pujols to be as long for quite a lot more per year. It would mean (if the structure is 16M per year throughout) at least 42Million a year for two players. That doesn’t leave them with a tremendous amount for the other players around them.
Of course they can field a decent team built around those two, but it still comes back to the pitching they would need.
I am not sure how I feel about Holliday being signed by the Yanks in any event. He is a good player who would keep LF covered for a while, a tough player who goes all out to try and win. He is a better fielder than Bay. His hitting, who knows. The time in the A’s wasn’t great but it wasn’t as bad as its made out to be either. If you took Teixeira’s number from the first portion of time he was playing for the Yankees, it doesn’t look all that impressive either. Batting in the Yankee lineup could have a positive impact with him as well.
I don’t like Bay. There is something about him that rubs me wrong. He is younger than Damon, can hit fairly well, but there were times when he looked pitiful at the plate as well. If it were a choice between him and Damon patroling LF I’d rather have Damon, only because his bat was very effective and its shorter term than Bay will get.
Of the three choices above, Holliday seems like the better option, but its a question on how much he will cost and for how long.
A lot of mediocre moves by the red sox, and a very puzzling move by the Phillies. I hope the Yanks sit tight this year, maybe just adding Ben Sheets and some bench players. Carl Crawford next year in left field is where it is at
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.c.....-2011.html
Chapman would probably start in extended spring training then move up the chain.
You people who say Holliday can’t hit in the AL are basing that statemnent basically on a bad April in the worst hitters park in the AL in a bad team.
He hit .322 in 80+ interleague games vs the AL while with the Rockies. The Guy can hit. Save the he can’t play in the AL garbage.
i wonder if Mike Scioscia is in the mood to make any more bold statements on how his team will dominate in 2010?
the angels are self-destructing
Matt,
Swish is an on base & rbi guy watch out this year girardi will try it out & tex will be great protection to arod (with this roster I see it like this)
Tom B-Exactly who is replacing production next year? Bay is reporting going to sign in the next couple days, Holliday reportedly has a big offer and Damon wants too much money and years.
The Yankees with some bench tweaks will be a very good team. World Series capable? We’ll see, but they have lost critical hitting and still have the same starters who they didn’t want to use in the playoffs. Also, if Hughes is in the rotation, they are back to the pen they had at the beginning of last year. Remember hoping to hang on with a multiple run lead in the 7th inning?
They need another quality hitter, either a solid starter or reliever and, in my view, and infielder who can play 2d, 3d and short with some pop. Pena doesn’t meet that qualification. With these needs and if their is less than $20M to spend, I don’t see Holliday or Bay.
Craw, if you think I deserve to be personally insulted based on my posts…then I really don’t know what to say. Nothing, I guess since I can’t change your mind.
Bellick is drawing parallels between Jay Cutler and Jeff George
haha haha
Holliday is really underrated. Even in Oakland he had an OPS+ of 130. He was doing something right.
TR December 15th, 2009 at 9:30 am
Any chance of the Yankees being able to put a package together (that’s not too painful) to get Carl Crawford for left field?
================================
Why would Tampa make such a deal unless they got big return? One of the reasons I think they won’t go after Holliday is because Cash is looking to next year’s FA class which will include Crawford.
Upstate Kate, seriously – you haven’t read all the posts insulting me if you thought I was directing my comment to you. I was directing it to a few choice people….and it had nothing to do with Halladay. Call me crazy – I don’t relish being insulted on a daily basis. I must have a thick skin or I’m incredibly dumb because for something that is supposed to give me enjoyment, I’m sure getting a few gray hairs.
Yes, there are 2.5war players just floating around waiting for contracts. we have 2 other players on the team that can bat behind arod, OPS+ is not a defining characteristic of a 5 hitter.
Damon probably can’t replace Matsui’s production. He had a tough second half that could just be decline.
Holliday will go where the $$$ is. I don’t believe any player who says he wants to play for the Yankees….or any team.
Mark in Tampa December 15th, 2009 at 9:31 am
…YS is, of course, a very good hitter’s park, even for a right hand batter. From last year, it seems even Death Valley ain’t what it used to be.
=========================
As long as you think 20th out of 30 parks is good you are correct.
I really want to know what Big Stein thinks of Kei. He felt Irabu was a fat toad, so maybe Igawa is a “useless toad” ???
LOL
Thanks for clearing that up Betsy, you are right, I don’t read the night time posts very often.
1: Lots of reports out there that the Halliday deal is NOT done yet. Should be today or tomorrow but anything can happen….
2: Red Sox already offered Chapman $15.5M according to MLB.com and other sites. I can’t see paying $15M for a kid that’s never pitched in the big leagues. Sox made that mistake with DiceK. Yanks made it with Igawa. It’s time for the Yankees to spend their money wisely.
Compensation picks are an important factor to consider. One of the brilliant aspects of Cashman’s spree last year was that would could double dip on the free agent market, but only lost one first round pick. If he sits tight this year then we can hold on to the first round pick and go after Carl Crawford or Jason Werth next year.
I thought the Grossman basing was bad, but Cutler-bashing is getting right up there. He has not had a good year by any means, but comments to the effect of “ he can’t play this game” are ridiculous. As a Bear fan…….they are going to become the Knicks of the NFL. They have a lousy coach, lousy GM and gutless owners who won’t make changes. They also have no talent. Other than that, they’re a great team.
Betsy: for someone who is a noticably sensitive person, you have delivered a share of mean spirited posts as well over the past weeks
Betsy,
Agree with you 100%. It is all about the money for Holliday or any other free agents.
I think holliday and boras would prefer 5 or 6 years at 18-20 million over 8 years at 16 million. Maybe I’m wrong on that but I doubt it..
“Holliday will go where the $$$ is. I don’t believe any player who says he wants to play for the Yankees….or any team.”
There you go…..
“I think holliday and boras would prefer 5 or 6 years at 18-20 million over 8 years at 16 million. Maybe I’m wrong on that but I doubt it..”
Furthermore, I suspect some of those years in that Cardinal offer to be option years.
the problem with Halladay like you said very good #’s from May 1st til the trade in the Al but that .480slg% is light for a middle of the order 20mil a yr slugging corner outfielder. He’s not a 120-140mil player away from Colorado but he and Boras want to be paid like he’s one of the top5 sluggers in the game.
Another thing that would bug me about signing Bay, if it were to come to that, then Boston would get the Yankees draft pick. If the Mutts sign Bay they don’t.
Just not very high on the worth of Bay. Maybe that’s because of seeing him in the RS uniform.
before we think Bay or Holliday we have to see how the Damon situation plays out.
Not sure why. But i still think Damon is priority number uno on the Yanks left field list.
He hit .322 in 80+ interleague games vs the AL while with the Rockies. The Guy can hit. Save the he can’t play in the AL garbage.
____
Tex also has bad aprils. So does CC, so do the yankees.
should we just expect to be in 4th place on may 1 and have to come from behind again?
just mentally preparing for april 15 to hear about the yankee demise (prematurely as usual)
I tend to doubt that the Cards offer was leaked by Boras. That was leaked by them.
I think it was to put pressure on Holliday and try to back off others from getting interested.
If more details about the offer leak out, it will be interesting to see what was truly offered. Options don’t work as well as set years. It could be that it was floated out there also for the St. Louis fans so if they don’t sign Holliday they will look like they tried hard to do so.
any way that that offer is structured Holliday would be a fool not to take…he will not be offered the years nor the total dollars from anybody else. the aav is about right for what he is.
“Just not very high on the worth of Bay. Maybe that’s because of seeing him in the RS uniform”
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neither am i. But it has nothing to do with him being on the RedSox. Was ready to vote him to the all-star team and declare him MVP, until he went in to a tailspin. From what i’ve observed he is a VERY inconsistent and streaky hitter. And he may have greatly benefitted from the cozy confines of Fenway as well.
“before we think Bay or Holliday we have to see how the Damon situation plays out.
Not sure why. But i still think Damon is priority number uno on the Yanks left field list.”
I don’t because Boras is going to leave Johnny out there after both, Bay and Holliday are signed.
If the Yankees sign sheets and he doesn’t get hurt then I think that neutralizes Bostons starting pitching advantage quiet a bit
1 CC/beckett – advantage Yankees
2.AJ/Lester – while AJ can match anyone on a given night, Lester is much more consistent. Advantage Boston
3.Pettite/Lackey- age gives this one to Boston- advantage Boston but its close
4. Sheets/bucholtz- bucholtz may get traded and Sheets is better anyway if healthy. Advantage Yankees.
5. Hughes/wakefield- I’m giving this one to Hughes because I have faith and wakefield is 200 years old. Advantage yankees.
That’s 3 out of five spots that I feel NY would be better including the ace position. Just my opinion,
Jim the VT Yankeefan December 15th, 2009 at 9:42 am
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Why would Tampa make such a deal unless they got big return? One of the reasons I think they won’t go after Holliday is because Cash is looking to next year’s FA class which will include Crawford.
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So then you sign no one for LF this year and stay with Melky/Gardner? Then compete with other teams for Crawford in free agency next winter (possibly costing even more $$$)? And meanwhile not replace Matsui’s and Damon’s production from last year for this upcoming season? Not sure if that’s an option. That’s a lot of lost production in the line-up.
Yankees may have a new direction over the last few years about not trading away their future stars (and that’s great), but the “win now” mantra is always front and center in the Bronx. If Tampa doesn’t believe they can re-sign Crawford at the end of this season, he WILL be moved before the trade deadline in July (just like the Phils moved Lee yesterday). It’s just a matter of what it will take to get him to the Bronx. IF (and that’s a big “IF”) it’s possible and we don’t have to give up too much, it would be worth it to put a package together now for Crawford.
3 things:
1. I think when Cash says that Chapman isn’t a consideration for next year’s rotation he doesn’t mean that Chapman is a relief pitcher, he just means that Chapman needs a year or two in the minor’s.
2. I don’t see the Yankees going above what St. Louis offered Holliday – but that’s fine too.
3. With Holliday, Cameron, Matsui all off the boards, if Damon still wants more money/years than the Yankees are comfortable with then here are the options (IMO)
Trade for DeJesus
Trade for Dunn
Sign Church
Sign Winn
Annoy all Met fans by jumping in and stealing Jason Bay.
Obviously the two trade targets are a lot more attractive than the free agent targets.
-Phillies know Lee wants to test the FA market,and wasn’t sure they could keep him. By getting Halladay locked up for 3 yrs they still have an Ace,and someone who will pitch on short rest, if needed,inn a WS. Lee’s contract is 4 yrs 15mm. When he won the CY it grew 9mm. The Mariners only pay him 9mm a bargain the Yankees never get in players.
-Panic/Desperation to keep Pujols motivated the Cards. When people say how bad Cashman is , chomp on this.
-Molzeliak (Gm Cards)traded their best prospect to get Holliday as well as others. Now to keep him,they offer him a contract more lucrative than any one on the team, and he’s not the best player on the team. Nor does he even know if Pujols will stay or test the market, that’s “stoopid.”
i still say: Nick Johnson at 1 or 2 years.
no more long & expensive contracts right now
dont know if you want to wait around for carl crawford for free agency. if we dont get him, there is nothing else available.
“any way that that offer is structured Holliday would be a fool not to take…he will not be offered the years nor the total dollars from anybody else. the aav is about right for what he is.”
You have to see how the contract is structured first before assuming that because what if the option years are team only options with buyout clauses that really reduces the overall value of the contract.
Ah – I left out Rick Ankeil on my above list.
chip: it doesn’t matter
FUNNY:
SI_JonHeyman RT @lenno212 Bad timing dept: #Mets “holiday” party today — not Halladay or Holliday. Pagan … Parnell in house. Bah humbug.
36 minutes ago from web
You have to see how the contract is structured first before assuming that because what if the option years are team only options with buyout clauses that really reduces the overall value of the contract.
Craw – while you may be right, knowing Boras I seriously doubt that’s the case.
Chip,
two things that Church and Ankiel have in common, and that is they can’t hit lefties.
“2. I don’t see the Yankees going above what St. Louis offered Holliday – but that’s fine too.”
Again, let’s see how that contract is really structured first before assuming nobody or the Yankees can’t top it.
Chip, I agree that the yankees won’t top the years in the cards offer of that offer is accurate, but I think they would consider topping the 16M per year.
“i still say: Nick Johnson at 1 or 2 years.”
i concur. vinny and I have been saying this since last year.
“Craw – while you may be right, knowing Boras I seriously doubt that’s the case.”
Chip,
This is the contract offer from the Cardinals, not an offer Boras made to the Cardinals.
“Molzeliak (Gm Cards)traded their best prospect to get Holliday as well as others. Now to keep him,they offer him a contract more lucrative than any one on the team, and he’s not the best player on the team. Nor does he even know if Pujols will stay or test the market, that’s “stoopid.”
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if the Cardinals are ready to increase their payroll by a sizable amount on an annual basis, then this contract offer is fine.
but if not (which is the most likely scenario) then i agree. You can’t do it
i still say: Nick Johnson at 1 or 2 years.
Vinny – the way the market is going that’s not looking likely either. Someone (San Fran? Seattle?) is going to give him a 3 or 4 year deal and let him do more than DH.
A trade for DeJesus is looking better and better to me each minute. A very good player (fourth highest OPS out of the leadoff spot last year) for 1 year 5 mil with an option.
I would easily go Gardner, Aceves, Russo and another pitching prospect for DeJesus.
Blake-
Glad to see you there still holding a torch for more pitching.
IMO we do not need to be the top hitting team in baseball just the best Pitching team. Pitching with enough hitting wins championships.
See any other options besides Sheets, Duke, that make sense ?
See any other options besides Sheets, Duke, that make sense
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duscherer…
Tex-
Duke is Duchsherer.
“A trade for DeJesus is looking better and better to me each minute. A very good player (fourth highest OPS out of the leadoff spot last year) for 1 year 5 mil with an option.”
oh please. DeJesus isn’t even on the trading block for all we know.
Someone (San Fran? Seattle?) is going to give him a 3 or 4 year deal and let him do more than DH
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chip: I don’t see it. Don’t see him receiving any contract for over 2 years. BTW, seattle doesn’t need him at DH
Re: Chapman
how many 22yr olds already have plus secondary pitches to go with a power fastball?
It would be nice if he already threw a nasty slider and knee-buckling change but the fact is…
you can teach secondary pitches. You can’t teach 102mph.
Oh, and he’s a lefty!
According Carig (MLBTR). He thinks Cashman will now turn some of his attention to sorting thru the second-tier pitching options. Hope is right.
oh please. DeJesus isn’t even on the trading block for all we know.
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According to Fox Sports he and gil meche are, but Jim bowden said on XM that they aren’t good enough/make too much money to get much back.
There is no way 30 year old Dejesus returns 4 players to KC. 1 or 2 at most.
Hope he is right. Sorry
Mtu, oh I’m always holding a torch for more pitching. I just want them to get both, but then again its not my checkbook.
Duchscherer is a good option as well but to me sheets has much more upside and if you’re going to take a risk in an injury prone player then why not take the guy who is better at 100%.
If I’m not mistaken the Mets were in the bottom half of MLB last year so the Red Sawx would not get their # 1 pick if they sign bay, just the sandwich pick.
I still think Damon ends up re-signing for an Abreu-like deal and settling the DH issue. Granderson is a better overall offensive player than Matsui in my opinion so it’s a net improvement if that happens.
Plenty of resources remain to build a great bench and or reinforce the pitching staff. Pineiro might be worth a shot since he throws a great sinker and is durable.
I read over the weekend Holliday wanted a min of 7 yrs,so as to not have to move his family. He also wanted a NTC so the contract couldn’t be traded a few yrs down the road.
For Holliday it comes down to,
not uprooting his family,
a long contract,
and a NTC.
The demon seed (Boras) has played the Cardinals!!
“According to Fox Sports he and gil meche are, but Jim bowden said on XM that they aren’t good enough/make too much money to get much back.”
let’s see then. Bowden, as in the Nats former GM?
I don’t see it. Don’t see him receiving any contract for over 2 years. BTW, seattle doesn’t need him at DH
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Seattle needs anyone with a pulse at 1st and DH and LF. Their offense is terrible. What makes you think they would not need nick Johnson?
Any chance the Yanks take a look at Vlad for DH?
let’s see then. Bowden, as in the Nats former GM?
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i didn’t feel like touching it.
chip: I don’t see it. Don’t see him receiving any contract for over 2 years. BTW, seattle doesn’t need him at DH
No, but Seattle does need a 1b
Chip-
I thought trading for DeJesus “brings a tear to your eye.”
KC would probably make that deal for Gardner.
DeJesus is a very good LF’er, doesn’t steal bases like he used to, hits .290 against lefties,but is not a big power bat. But at 4.6M with a club option for 6M, that might allow the Yankees to move Swisher to DH and Melky to RF and we’d have a distinct upgrade in defense in the OF. Plus we’d have money for a starting pitcher.
No to Winn. Marlon Byrd. If the $$/contract length are right, maybe.
“Aroldis Chapman is scheduled to throw a bullpen session for several teams ”
arnoldis chapman has nothing further to learn in bullpen sessions.
Moves I would make :
1. Cashman and Boras have a dialogue unlike Boston. They can find common ground with Matt Holliday.
2. Sign Nick Johnson as DH and occasionally spell Teixeira at 1st base without losing a beat. Nick is the prototypical contact hitter with some power. Slot him as the No. 2 hitter behind Jeter.
3. Brett Gardner and Juan Miranda are odd men out. Deal them to K.C. for RHP Gil Meche who can battle it out in March for the 4-5 spots in the starting rotation. One of either Joba or Hughes ends up in the bullpen.
ages: Holliday (1/15/80)
Johnson (9/19/78)
Meche (9/18/78)
Can someone explain to me how the Cardinals are going to pay Pujols next year if they give Holliday 18m? Pujols will demand 20+. The Cardinals don’t have that kind of $$$. If you were them, wouldn’t you choose Pujols as the guy to give the big contract to? Or do the Cardinals have more money than I realize?
can you guys stop talking about dejesus/dunn/church/wynn/delgado/vlad/every other aging or mediocre player out there, on the off chance that someone reads this and thinks its a good idea?
we got 162 games of production from melky/gardner last year, won the division running away and won a world series. i think we’ll be OK with that same production coming from LF instead. we don’t need all stars at every position to be a winning ballclub, but you guys always want to take the easy way out.
86w183
December 15th, 2009 at 10:14 am
I still think Damon ends up re-signing for an Abreu-like deal and settling the DH issue. Granderson is a better overall offensive player than Matsui in my opinion so it’s a net improvement if that happens.
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I think you’re right about Damon. I wonder if he’ll have to side-step Boras like Alex had to a few years ago.
Can someone explain to me how the Cardinals are going to pay Pujols next year if they give Holliday 18m?
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They offered Holliday 16 AAV for 8 years.
I think we can count on Hal and Hank to tell Cashman to respond in a significant way, with another bat and good pitcher. Cashman will be directed to do something. He’s been quiet, maybe negotiating with some agents perhaps.
“Seattle needs anyone with a pulse at 1st and DH and LF. Their offense is terrible. What makes you think they would not need nick Johnson?”
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didn’t say Seattle didn’t need Nick Johnson at first base. I don’t know their first base situation. Although, IMO they would be foolish to rely on NJ in the field, without a back-up plan. That said, they definitely don’t need NJ at DH. That’s where they will be playing Griffey
can you guys stop talking about dejesus/dunn/church/wynn/delgado/vlad/every other aging or mediocre player out there, on the off chance that someone reads this and thinks its a good idea?
we got 162 games of production from melky/gardner last year, won the division running away and won a world series. i think we’ll be OK with that same production coming from LF instead. we don’t need all stars at every position to be a winning ballclub, but you guys always want to take the easy way out.
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We got a season’s worth of production from Matsui and Damon as well. It is also a different season.
“Granderson is a better overall offensive player than Matsui in my opinion so it’s a net improvement if that happens”
Matsui’s the better bat of the two, IMO. Similar power, more OBP, fewer K’s and Matsui can hit LHP’s effectively. Still a net gain for the Yankees because of run prevention, but if Damon is the last piece of the offensive puzzle, I don’t see them as being improved offensively (not that they needed to improve offensively).
“They offered Holliday 16 AAV for 8 years.”
Ok. That doesn’t answer my question though. Do they have enough $$$ to give Holliday 16 and Pujols 18-20?
A few things to get people to back away from the edge of the bridge:
1. Boston has weakened their INF D with Scutaro instead of Gonzalez, and their offense with Cameron instead of Bay with an increase to their pitching. Barring a deal for Adrian I’m not going to get my shorts in a twist.
2. Seattle has done the most to improve themselves thus far but still have a lot of holes (C, 1b, LF, Run Producers)
3. The Angels have taken major hits to their rotation and lineup and barring some additional moves could very well struggle.
4. Roy Halladay is out of the American League East
5. If the Yankees bring back Damon (or bring in DeJesus) and adds a pitcher the team is improved from the one that won the WS last year
That’s where they will be playing Griffey
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You can’t possibly believe that the same GM who might have just pulled off a deal for Lee, picked up Chone Figgins, and has been aggressively courting superior options for his team, would go into the season with Griffey at DH.
Griffey can barely hit, and at the most would be a platoon player because he can’t hit lefties.
no, sorry, if they got NJ he would be DH or 1B. Griffey is a bench bat brought in for good will and fan appreciation. Also he is friends with Ichiro.
The Royals have there own Juan Miranda type player in Kila Ka’aihue.
Ok. That doesn’t answer my question though. Do they have enough $$$ to give Holliday 16 and Pujols 18-20?
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Yes, I would imagine if they are offering 8/16, then its because they feel like they can also re-sign Pujols
“Can someone explain to me how the Cardinals are going to pay Pujols next year if they give Holliday 18m?”
Pujols is under contract thru 2011, so he was already a fixed expense at $16M. What they do beyond then is the issue, but it’s not as though it isn’t something they’ve been thinking about.
and we will get a full season of granderson, mitigating one of those 2 players(damon/matsui), and damon is still out there. there is nothing to worry about, but signing old/mediocre FA’s just because they are there is NOT the answer, and cashman will prove that to you(as he has already been doing).
“we got 162 games of production from melky/gardner last year, won the division running away and won a world series. i think we’ll be OK with that same production coming from LF instead. we don’t need all stars at every position to be a winning ballclub, but you guys always want to take the easy way out”
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agree. If Damon doesn’t return, the combination of Melky/Gardner/Hoffmann can hold it down. Who knows, Hoffmann may prove to be a fine LF’er
“You can’t possibly believe that the same GM who might have just pulled off a deal for Lee, picked up Chone Figgins, and has been aggressively courting superior options for his team, would go into the season with Griffey at DH”
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well then why did they sign him (for millions $) ?
i’m not the Seattle GM. It’s not my decision. Otherwise Griffey would be at home playing videogames
tex’s friend December 15th, 2009 at 10:01 am
dont know if you want to wait around for carl crawford for free agency. if we dont get him, there is nothing else available.
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I’m with you 100%. Forget the free agents and DeJesus, go get Crawford. It might cost a bit, but as long as it’s not Joba, Hughes, or Montero, the farm is still safe and we’re still a better/younger team.
The Sox rotation on paper looks strong. But all of them, except for probably Lester, have legit injury concerns. Remember, it’s a long season.
Could it end up being Bay? Do I want Bay? I have no idea, never even considered that an option.
Never considered Holliday either. Just thought they were going in a different direction.
A certain poster who shall remain nameless is again infiltrating this board with drama and nonsense. Please everyone try and ignore her and her idiotic posts. It only steers the thread away from intelligent baseball conversation.
•Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports reports that Kelvim Escobar will pitch in front of teams this week in Venezuela. We know the Mets recently offered him a minor league deal (MLBTR).
•The A’s sent three people to watch Aroldis Chapman throw in Houston, according to Susan Slusser of the San Francisco Chronicle.
Stay on it Yanks.
“Pujols is under contract thru 2011, so he was already a fixed expense at $16M. What they do beyond then is the issue, but it’s not as though it isn’t something they’ve been thinking about.”
There is the source of my confusion. I thought that his contract was up in 2010. Still, they need to be prepared to pony up some change because I’m sure that Pujols will believe that he should be making substantially more than Holliday.
Neil:
agree. Others miss the point on Nick Johnson, and complain he has lost power. However, that’s never been his game. Nick Johnson is a doubles, and on base machine. He would make a fine #2 hitter in this lineup. And if need be he could also offer Alex protection at #5
well then why did they sign him (for millions $) ?
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I said in that same post. Its a grab for fans, his teammates love him, Ichiro loves him. Look at his incentives:
“Griffey will earn $3.9 million if he again has at least 400 plate appearances, Seattle has an increased home attendance of at least 2.5 million fans and Griffey again does not go on the disabled list while remaining on the roster for the entire season, AP reported.”
The Mariners are not a small market, his 2 million base salary is chump change.
Don’t want Damon back.
Halliday improved Philly he will pitch on short rest, and they keep him for 3 yrs. They will stay in the postseason mix.
Granderson didn’t come for Yankees to go crazy for Holliday spending.
the red sox have had money on hold to spend since they got rid of manny’s big contract.
they add lackey with that money freed up.
add cameron.
is that all they got?
big deal.
something’s strange in boston.
16 AAV for Holliday.
He’s a Yankee.
edit
16 AAV for Holliday?
He’ll be a Yankee
The Yankees need another arm or 2 a lot more than they need Damon.
Granderson replaces Damon in the outfield for 2010.
While Melky does not have a big bat to play the corner spots, he has been a vary usefull guy on this team for the better part of 4 years.
If Damon comes back, I see him as the primary DH. I think the Yankees have the same view of him as a DH that can play the field. They are not going to give him more than 9-10mil. There are lots of Vets that can be had to fill the DH roll out there and for a lot less. You may see the Yankees go with young guys to fill the utility and DH holes until they proove they can or can’t do it.
Sui can’t play the field any longer and that is why he’s going to LA.
I keep hearing about Bay’s defense, but who would you rather have out in left, Bay or Damon? It shouldn’t even be close.
Someone referred to December 14 as Black Monday. Darn, that is my birthday and now I have to share it with Black Monday.
As a senior citizen I will choose to ignore it.
After reading countless posts, the ideas I like that is being thrown around here is getting Ben Sheets and Nick Johnson (If Damon doesn’t lower his demands).
Sheets adds depth to the rotation thus allowing Hughes or Joba go to the pen or get their innings in the Minors.
Johnson would add contact hitting to the top of the order. Which in turn would make Granderson’s strikeouts away from the top and provide protection for A-rod and a runner on base for Posada to get some pitches.
Both for less of the price that Damon is demanding.