Yogi remains the coolest guy in the room
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 15, 2009 
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Major League clubhouses lost their “wow” factor for me a long time ago. Even when I was covering minor league ball, going into a big league clubhouse was part of the job. The thrill was gone, as B.B. King might say.*
That said, the first time I walked into the Yankees clubhouse in spring training, Yogi Berra was the first person I saw, and in that little moment, the thrill was back. I don’t know the man at all, but in a clubhouse of Derek Jeter and Johnny Damon, Berra was clearly the coolest guy in the room. I thought of that when this press release landed in my email inbox.
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Baseball Hall of Famer Yogi Berra has been named the first-ever “Classic Ambassador” for the Bob Hope Classic. Berra, who played in the Classic 15 times from 1995-2009, will perform a wide variety of duties on behalf of the iconic PGA TOUR event at the 51st Classic, Jan. 18-24.
“In recognition of Yogi’s long-standing association with the Bob Hope Classic and his energetic and tireless contributions to extending the reach and impact of the Classic, especially to the many charities and fans the Classic serves throughout the Coachella Valley, we are delighted to be able to honor him in this way,” said John Foster, president and tournament chairman.
“It’s a privilege for me to be honored by the Bob Hope Classic, which has always been a wonderful tournament,” Berra said. “I thought the world of Bob, for all he’s done for golf and everything and everybody, and I cherish the times we spent. Playing this tournament every year over the last 15 years, I can honestly say has been a great experience. I can also say, being 84, not many can beat me in experience.”
Berra’s role as Classic Ambassador will encompass attendance at a series of special events throughout Classic week: the Classic Gala, Classic Kickoff Breakfast, Five-Star sponsor dinner, charity distribution ceremony, hitting the ceremonial first tee shot on Wednesday, Jan. 20, the VIP Celebrity Dinner, appearances at the four Classic courses to visit with celebrities, amateurs and professionals, the Amateur Awards reception, and concluding with the winner’s championship presentation on the 18th green at the Palmer Private Course at PGA WEST on Sunday, Jan. 24.
A World War II veteran of the U.S. Navy, Berra was a 15-time All-Star during a playing career with the New York Yankees from 1946-63 and with the New York Mets in 1965. He had a .285 career batting average with 359 home runs and 1,430 RBI and is widely regarded as one of the greatest catchers in baseball history. He won the American League MVP award three times. He led the Yankees in RBI seven consecutive seasons from 1949-55. He was a member of 14 World Series teams, 10 of which won championships, both records. He established seven World Series records and hit the first pinch-hit home run in World Series history off the Dodgers’ Ralph Branca in Game 3 of the 1947 World Series. He was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1972. Berra managed the Yankees in 1964 and in 1984-85 and the Mets from 1972-75. He was a coach on world championship teams with the Mets in 1969 and Yankees in 1977-78. Berra is a recipient of the Boy Scouts of America’s highest adult award, the Silver Buffalo Award, and is active with the Yogi Berra Museum and Learning Center at Montclair State (N.J.) University. During and after his playing days he has been one of America’s most iconic advertising symbols.
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* I don’t know whether it’s true, but I always heard that Will Clark’s answering machine played The Thrill is Gone. Even if it’s not true, it’s a great story.
Sounds like a great honor for baseball’s greatest living player.
continued: i was all for matsui back, and he is gone, so now i want to right handed matsui (mr. guerrero).
Cash can go 1/$6.5M just like matsui. We can even put 55 on him, and eventually start calling him hideki guerrero.
oh. and we love you (in a professional athlete who played for my favorite team sort of way) yogi.
About Chapman today
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....Id=rss_nyy
Vinny-b, what did Kay say?
Who doesn’t love Yogi? With the exception of that white duck maybe.
Gotta love Yogi…..may we have him around for many more years……
“Hal is becoming a real problem here. I like that he lets Cash do his job and doesn’t intervene, but seesh, enough with this budget talk already.”
God forbid we have a payroll under 210 million, right Tim?
We have to be almost double any other ML team to compete, right?
Just a bunch of nonsense.
Hey Miggs to you post at RAB?
Betsy:
Michael Kay was admonishing a caller who expressed his displeasure with Cashman, for not aquiring Roy Halladay. Kay doesn’t understand yankee fans who are of the belief that aquiring every great player is their birth-right. “The Yankees just won a world series and then they went out and got Curtis Granderson. I don’t understand this. When does it end? It is glutony”
and i completely agree
Love Yogi. Great post.
Easy there, Pokey. I love Yogi as much as the next guy, but that ‘Greatest Living Player’ moniker definitely belongs to the Say Hey Kid – Willie Mays.
Rob I read everything there at RAB but only post here.
If I did post there I’d use the same handle.
Before they instituted a draft to stop the Yanks, the Yanks used to be able to comb the country, find great players who were amateurs and sign them that way. Now the Yanks have to wait sometimes.
Nothing wrong at all with Melky in LF and Damon at DH.
We have 8 all-stars in our lineup now, we need 9?
Melky is a solid ball player who is a winning role player and clutch. He will be fine in left. Who cares about league average production? We get way more from SS, 2B, 3B, C, and now CF. We can afford to go light in LF.
“Yogi.” All you have to do is say the name and the picture fills itself in.
Speaking of pictures, I have one of my dad with Yogi at a signing event. Two little old Italian guys smiling the same smile. (Yup, I’m half Italian. But the Irish DNA beat it out). My dad was a fan, and Yogi a player, during the golden age of baseball. No question about it, the fans and the players weren’t that different from each other then (except for the freakish talent of course). The camera doesn’t lie.
Despite everything Yogi accomplished on the baseball diamond, he and my dad – and everybody else’s dad of that time – were more alike than different off the field, in the way they grew up and in the way they lived. If I live long enough to get a picture of me as an old man with a middle aged Jeter it just wouldn’t be the same.
No going back once you cross through the looking glass; they’ll never again be “just like us, only more talented.” That’s one of the reasons Yogi is so instantly preceived as “cool.” For all his accomplishments he’s really still just that kid from St. Louis.
Ticket sales obviously suffered last season, and the way things look economically, I can’t blame Hal for wanting to reel in the spending.
“Now the Yanks have to wait sometimes.”
B-B-But that’s not fair!
Anyone complaining about the Yankees budget needs to GTFO.
Are you people serious. The Yankees have the highest payroll by a LARGE margin. We signed the 3 best free agents on the market last year.
Oh no. The payroll is so tight. We cannot have every free agent. We cannot have Chapman. What are we to do with a 200 million dollar payroll
You people are the reason most baseball fans HATE Yankee fans.
“Man i guess bobcat was right. They only tell you what they want you to hear. All this time people were not taking him seriously. My bad bobcat”
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lol, SoS. I’m still trying to see the corelation myself
Vinny-b, I did tune in for a bit- you’re right, Kay is making sense. I still hate hearing that the Sox have a better rotation, but…..if Joba pitches well and Phil shows good things, we’ll be ok.
Also, good for Kay. I wanted Doc badly, but I would never admonish Cash for not giving up the farm for him (although if Heyman’s tweet is true, it’s odd to me that he’d prefer giving up Montero to Joba).
NYY Steak is the clunkiest name for a steakhouse in history. It should be called “Yogi’s”. Unless Yogi is a vegetarian..
Please, Willie isn’t fit to carry Yogi’s golf bag.
We need to sign Damon.
Who else will have the guts to call out the kids if they do not do well in the rotation early on and are killing the pen?
Cuban defector Aroldis Chapman today, in side session in Houston: 93-96 mph, abv avg slider & change. Person there: “He’s got the package.”
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We need Chapman. We never get to draft players like that…..
…….(i)goes to look up Joba Chamberlain scouting report(/i)………..
Chamberplain sits in the 92-95 MPH range with his fastball, which has excellent movement and a ton of “zip” to it. He has polished his fastball command since being drafted by the Yankees as well. His best secondary pitch is a hard biting slider that clocks in at 82-87 MPH. His curbveball was his best pitch in college, but he’s relied upon his slider/change/fastball combo in the minors.
“Easy there, Pokey. I love Yogi as much as the next guy, but that ‘Greatest Living Player’ moniker definitely belongs to the Say Hey Kid – Willie Mays.”
Now this is fodder for a good debate on a slow day come January. I won’t disagree on designating Mays as the Greatest Living Player, but “definitely” might be a bit strong.
I suggest you could also make an argument for Aaron overall. Maybe even Johnny Bench, but that may be because I grew up watching him.
Cashman said pitching is his priority.
Posada and Andy both went on the radio and said they would like another starter.
We’re getting another starter. Just a question of who it pushes out of the rotation.
Betsy,
He was probably more willing to part with Montero because of all the catching depth in the system. They’re a lot thinner in the starting pitching department, especially in terms of who is major league ready.
If Cashman believes in Hughes and Joba so much and was willing to keep them over Montero, then why does he seem so intent on adding another starter? Every interview he has done this winter, he has mentioned that he is looking for more pitching.
Either he wants both kids in the rotation or he doesn’t.
I agree on the coolness of Yogi but was a little disappointed that you just declared it without describing what about Yogi struck you as so cool when you were actually in the room with him (as opposed to just reading a bio).
The only time I was physically close to Yogi was when they had a day in his honor at the beautiful little gem of a minor-league park that is home to the Staten Island Yankees. This was several years ago, when the whole thing was pretty new, and the local guys were fumbling around a little bit with the ceremonial arrangements. Yogi sort of took over in a nice, polite, but effective way, and got the whole process moving smoothly with a few words, nods and finger-pointings. He made everybody look better.
That’s cool.
Now maybe you could tell us about the coolness you witnessed?
Last night some of us on this blog had a discussion last about how historically, the Yankees always had the best players at every postion. I tried to say that it didn’t have to be that way, and we could still win.
We’ve got an All-Star at 1B, 2B, SS, 3B, CF, and C. That’s 6 out of 9 positions. I think we can win with that, no?
“NYY Steak is the clunkiest name for a steakhouse in history. It should be called “Yogi’s”. Unless Yogi is a vegetarian.. ”
Have to disagree: “Ruth’s Chris’ Steakhouse” is the most awkward name for a steak house. Two possessives in the title, along with that special rule that you can form a possessive with a word that ends in “s” by adding an apostrophe without an additional “s.”
Man do I have too much time on my hands.
Bench wasn’t even the best player on his team, let alone of his era.
Hal is a hinderance? LOL
You mean the owner of the World Champions, who has spent over 800 million in guaranteed money the last 2 off-seasons.
Some hinderance! LOL
“Please, Willie isn’t fit to carry Yogi’s golf bag”
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Pokey: you serious? Was not a fan when either played, but after watching 12 hours of Ken Burns documentary, i would venture to say the 4 greatest players (non-pitchers) in history are:
Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Willie Mays, Ted Williams (not in any specific order)
“Bench wasn’t even the best player on his team, let alone of his era.”
Of course, the same could be said of Yogi.
From Wikipedia:
“The chain was founded by the late Ruth Fertel, a single mother of two, in 1965, after she bought the existing Chris Steak House in New Orleans. In buying the restaurant, Fertel had to agree that the restaurant keep the “Chris” name for a specified period of time. After the original location sustained a kitchen fire, she relocated the restaurant about one-half mile (0.9 km) to the west on Broad Street and renamed the rebuilt establishment “Ruth’s Chris.” Under the purchase agreement, the name “Chris Steak House” could not be used at any other location, and she did not want to lose customers already familiar with the Chris name.”
“He was probably more willing to part with Montero because of all the catching depth in the system. They’re a lot thinner in the starting pitching department, especially in terms of who is major league ready.”
I believe that Heyman report was bogus anyway. Cashman plays his cards too close to the vest, plus I think the Yankees never got close enough to start making counter proposals to Toronto. People need to stop believing everything they read from these reporters trying to be the first ones to break a story. Too much sloppy reporting going on with only one source being used without any confirmation.
Ruth’s Chris is definitely in my top 5 steakhouses.
Palm, Morton’s, Smith and Wolensky are also up there.
But Peter Luger’s takes the cake.
murphydog
December 15th, 2009 at 4:41 pm ”
Have to disagree: “Ruth’s Chris’ Steakhouse” is the most awkward name for a steak house. Two possessives in the title, along with that special rule that you can form a possessive with a word that ends in “s” by adding an apostrophe without an additional “s.”
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I agree. That’s an awful name for a steak house. I always wondered who came up with that. Could they not think of anything better? lol
Mays was better than Aaron.
If the Yankees want to Rotate the DH this year…wouldn’t Mark DeRosa make sense? Righty bat with some pop that can play nearly any position well? If we get Damon as DH, Derosa as LF? Derosa can play most of the infield when others rest..e.g. when ARod has a day off or is DHing…
Pokey
December 15th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
From Wikipedia:
“The chain was founded by the late Ruth Fertel, a single mother of two, in 1965, after she bought the existing Chris Steak House in New Orleans. In buying the restaurant, Fertel had to agree that the restaurant keep the “Chris” name for a specified period of time. After the original location sustained a kitchen fire, she relocated the restaurant about one-half mile (0.9 km) to the west on Broad Street and renamed the rebuilt establishment “Ruth’s Chris.” Under the purchase agreement, the name “Chris Steak House” could not be used at any other location, and she did not want to lose customers already familiar with the Chris name.”
******************
Thanks, Pokey. That answers my question.
Great food, still don’t like the name.
If the Yanks had been willing to trade Montero, Halladay would be taking his Yankee physical right now.
I said he was the greatest LIVING player. Obviously guys like Cobb, Williams, Ruth, etc. were better. But they’re, uh, not living.
“If Cashman believes in Hughes and Joba so much and was willing to keep them over Montero, then why does he seem so intent on adding another starter?”
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ding ding ding. Winner!
damm good question. I expect the report by Heyman was either bull****, or less likely the yankees leaking false info to increase Joba’s value
Chapman sounds intriguing, but I wouldn’t go north of $20 mil for him – total.
The next sound you hear is the flushing noise from Kei Igawa’s $40m immortal waste of a contract (hey the RS signed Dice-K, let’s sign our own Japanese pitcher).
RvX
December 15th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Cashman said pitching is his priority.
Posada and Andy both went on the radio and said they would like another starter.
We’re getting another starter. Just a question of who it pushes out of the rotation.
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OR they are getting a starter for depth like Duscherer or Escobar because no one on the market right now is likely to outperform Joba and Phil next year.
Oh and no one in the Yankees FO cares what Posada or Andy say when it comes to personnel moves.
And finally, someone else asked this last night so I cannot take credit:
Name any other team in MLB with a better 4-5 combo than the Yankees have right now.
If you want to have a great steak (or mutton chops) and see Babe Ruth’s clay pipe go to Kean’s near Madison Sq Garden.
I wasn’t saying Heyman was right, just that if the report was true, then that would have been Cash’s reasoning.
“I said he was the greatest LIVING player. Obviously guys like Cobb, Williams, Ruth, etc. were better. But they’re, uh, not living”
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yes, but Willie Mays is still living. Is he not in the forementioned group?
Take Hey-man with a grain of salt.
Just like Mom used to say: You can never have too much pitching.
derosa makes some sense, but i still think having the dh, and sitting him from time to time to give the players a break will be fine. if damon isnt there, rest isnt as important except for posada. jeter/alex/tex can rest once / twice a month.. on those days, sit vlad.
IMO nothing even comes close to Peter Luger
DeRosa is a bad OBP guy who is defensively poor anywhere you play him.
I love that the Yanks kept the Hughes, Joba and Montero, but all I hear now is that the Sox have the best rotation. Why couldn’t the Yanks add Sheets and Duscherer and add LF back to Damon. Jeter and Damon were very successful together and Damon re-invented himself a bit. I just see a more formidable lineup with basically Granderson replacing Matsui.
Some good steaks at Ruth’s Chris’ Steak House!
Yogi is a classic. Just nobody else like him.
I’m curious to know if the Yankees see closer potential in Aroldis Chapman and think they can accelerate his development fast enough for him to join the pen late season.
It sounds so far like he’s got 2 pitches – a plus fastball and an above average slider.
We had our chance to roll with Vlad and blew it years ago. Time to move on.
chemicals aside, Barry Bonds is probably the greatest living player.
Name any other team in MLB with a better 4-5 combo than the Yankees have right now.
1. Beckett
2. Lester
3. Lackey
4. Dice-K
5. Bucholz/Wakefield.
I’d say boston right now, but that could change if Joba and Hughes have stellar seasons.
Took a moment today to check out Pete’s new blog…man he’s getting roasted by the sox fans…some really hate him.
ARod & Pujols will blow by Bonds soon enough, and not just in HRs.
Guess Aaron gets no love.
borat:
link ?
“Name any other team in MLB with a better 4-5 combo than the Yankees have right now.”
4-5 what? Starters? Better than Hughes/Joba?
As it stands today, Atlanta for sure. The Red Sox and White Sox would probably be in the conversation.
Whats all this steak talk about? All we have in so cal is Outback and Black Angus. How does Ruths rank?
Worst 40 mil spent?
Igawa
Pavano
my father was a huge Braves fan (used to live in milwaukee and go to all the games), but he admits Willie Mays was better then Hank Aaron. And by a decent margin
DeRosa is also a guy who’s looking for 3yrs @ 9-10per
Berra played a tougher position, especially physically, for most of his career and also missed time due to WW2. Factor those in and what he did during his career far outpaces Mays.
Barry Bonds was overrated in the field, and wasn’t a feared hitter until he gained 200 pounds and 15 hat sizes.
NY we’ve got Peter Luger, Smith & Wollensky, Ben Benson’s, Gallagher’s, besides Morton’s & Ruth’s Chris’, among many others
Pretty spoiled
Name any other team in MLB with a better 4-5 combo than the Yankees have right now.
1. Beckett
2. Lester
3. Lackey
4. Dice-K
5. Bucholz/Wakefield.
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Let’s analyze:
1) Beckett vs CC -I go with CC everyday and all day long.
2) Lester vs Petitte- Lester gets the edge, but let’s not forget what Andy did just a couple months ago.
3) AJ vs Lackey -Even. Lackey is a good pitcher, but he’s injury prone and beatable as well.
4)Dice-K vs Hughes -I have to go Hughes here, the best is yet to come with this guy, I do think however, he will be dealt.
5) Buckholz/Wakefield vs Joba/Gaudin/Aceves/Mitre, etc-Depth baby, it’s a beautiful thing that Cashman has built in the pitching staff.
The Red Sox are playing catch up. We still have the best 3 rotation, remember? They just won the WORLD SERIES a couple months ago, not a couple years ago.
lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins) December 15th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
And finally, someone else asked this last night so I cannot take credit:
Name any other team in MLB with a better 4-5 combo than the Yankees have right now.
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The Yankees don’t know what they have right now in Chamberlain and Hughes. They’ve both been pretty inconsistent as starters. As we well know from Chamberlain, we don’t know if Hughes’ success as a reliever will translate to starting.
So, since we don’t know what we have, it’s hard to make any comparison.
And that’s the problem. The Yankees should not go into spring training relying on *both* Hughes and Chamberlain with only Aceves as backup.
The should sign Sheets if they can get him < $10mil.
Vinny have to agree – I wouldn’t exactly call Aaron a “compiler”, but he’s never really been in the conversation (other than the HR record).
Aaron was a great hitter, obviously, but all-around? Not in the top 15 all-time
http://www.boston.com/sports/b.....day_j.html
You look to add pitching because of depth.
You need 8-9 starters to get thru a season. Right now, the Yankees need a stsrter and will add one, IMO.
Hey murphydog, it’s Ruth’s Chris, not Ruth’s Chris’. Still an awful name, though. The way I heard it explained, Ruth, founder of the restaurant chain, named it after her son Chris. So it’s like “Chris Steakhouse,” which belongs to Ruth. Even going with “Chris Steakhouse” would have been bad enough.
Ruth’s Chris has always reminded me of that time on Taxi when Jim bought Mario’s and changed its name to Jim’s Marios’.
“Berra played a tougher position, especially physically, for most of his career and also missed time due to WW2. Factor those in and what he did during his career far outpaces Mays”
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cool cool. Never saw either play. Not my intention to come off like an authority on the subject
Sparks on E 46th.
Go with a buddy not a girl. Gets steaks and split a 3 lb lobster.
Best surf n turf you’ll ever have.
Phil
December 15th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Ruth’s Chris has always reminded me of that time on Taxi when Jim bought Mario’s and changed its name to Jim’s Marios’.
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LOL
L to the 2nd
December 15th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
NY we’ve got Peter Luger, Smith & Wollensky, Ben Benson’s, Gallagher’s, besides Morton’s & Ruth’s Chris’, among many others
Pretty spoiled
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Ever try Keens on 36th? Best steak I’ve ever had. Always get the porterhouse. Always shake my head in disbelief about how good it is.
SJ,
I think the key word is *depth.* I would love to add Sheets, but I think he may be too expensive and you have to guarantee him a spot in the rotation if you are paying him that much.
With that said there is not a team in baseball that really knows what they are getting out of the 4 and 5 spot. However, Joba and Phil project to better than most if not all.
I would not take Dice-K and Bucholz over Phil and Joba. To me Wakefield is not even part of the conversation because the guy could not even move a few months ago
borat:
thank you. Will check
We used to go to Sparks all the time when I was growing up.
Stanzy, see the wikipedia quote I posted above.
How about a blockbuster Josh Johnson/Dan Uggla (DH/2b) or on a smaller size Nolasco,Uggla? I know it sounds crazy, but would be nice.
Cot salaries are bogus. They prorate signing bonuses and add them to current salaries. Sabathia & Tex got their bonuses last year not in 2010…
Rotation
23M Sabathia, 16.5M Burnett, 11.75M Pettitte
Bullpen
4M Marte, 15M Rivera
Lineup
9M Cano, 5.5M Granderson, 6.8M Swisher, 20M Teix, 33M Arod, 21M Jeter, 13.1M Posada
Extended Roster
400K 12 minor leaguers on split contracts, 858K Brackman, 400K Miranda
^^^^^^^^ 180.2M Right now + 8M for the kids in the pen, joba & hughes, bench, melky & gaudin. So the Yankees have about 10M (13M if they move melky or gaudin) to work for a LF & SP to keep the budget under 200M.
stanzy,
Better than Luger’s?
“Cot salaries are bogus. They prorate signing bonuses and add them to current salaries. Sabathia & Tex got their bonuses last year not in 2010…”
For luxury tax purposes, the signing bonuses are spread out over the contract. CC was paid $23M last year, but was on the books for $14M (read: they only pay 40% of $14M, not $23M). This year, he’s on the books for $24M+.
Thanks, Pokey. Now I know. And knowing’s half the battle.
Vinny,
No big deal. I just get a little miffed that people forget just how great a player Yogi was, not to mention all the Mays yapping. Combine the two and I can go on a tear.
Folks im as big as a Yankee fan as there is. But im not going to be bias here. I thought Bucholtz pitched pretty damn good at the end of the year. Better than Joba. Am i missing something here?
My dad was down the street when Big Paul Castellano was rubbed out in front of Sparks.
Woo hoo, mob hit shout out!
I had a great steak at La Canana in Buenos Aires.
Wolfgangs is pretty darn good….
Joba pitched a full season. You cannot compare them when Bucholz pitched 60 fewer innings
“We have 8 all-stars in our lineup now, we need 9?”
We don’t NEED 9, but wouldn’t 9 be nicer than 8? 8 is sure nicer than the single obligatory all-star!
Borat, Pete is doing for the Boston Globe exactly what he did for LoHud — writing provocative entries, often tongue-in-cheek, that get naive, excitable fanboys and fangirls pounding their keyboards. It’s working, too. Extra Bases traffic is way up. It’s unlikely to reach NY levels because Boston, for those of you who haven’t been there, is a small city with fewer people in it than one borough of the Big Apple. But, for Boston, it’s something.
Smart guy, Pete, doing what it takes to make a successful career in an industry where many are going down the drain. It’s not always a pretty sight, but it works. Kind of silly to see the tactics criticized here that got 90% of you on board.
lets go yankees – Have to confess I haven’t been to Luger’s. However, My brother-in-law, who usually treats me to Keens as a “client,” has said they’re comparable, though he prefers Keens. Awesome thing about Keens is that it’s very simple — the menu, the preparation (they let the meat speak for itself), and even the place (nice, but not showy). Luger’s is on my list to try, though.
Wow, is that 4 comments from me on one LoHud post? Apparently we’ve finally hit a topic that I can get really into.
borat:
checked the link you posted. I actually thought the piece by Pete was really good. Wow, boston fans didn’t. Red Sox fans being mean – imagine that
Stanzy, sounds like a plan.
What is the argument for Burnett being as good a pitcher as Lackey? I realize Lackey has missed some time the last 2 seasons, but his numbers are significantly better than Burnett’s over the last 5 years, 3 years, even last year. I don’t think Burnett pitched up to his full potential in 09, but he would have to improve on the best numbers he put up in the AL to match what Lackey has done pretty much year after year.
squidward,
For Salary cap purposes they still do it wrong. You average out the entire contract including the bonus. So Jeter should be at 18.9M not the 22.6M Cot has him at.
^^^^ For Luxury tax purposes
stanzy: how about some Kobe steak with Matsui knee fluid ua jus?
Sorry, that was totally uncalled for.
“No big deal. I just get a little miffed that people forget just how great a player Yogi was, not to mention all the Mays yapping. Combine the two and I can go on a tear”
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pokey: I hear you. Understandable
Pokey
December 15th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Berra played a tougher position, especially physically, for most of his career and also missed time due to WW2. Factor those in and what he did during his career far outpaces Mays.
Barry Bonds was overrated in the field, and wasn’t a feared hitter until he gained 200 pounds and 15 hat sizes
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you must belike 16yrs old so it’s okay that you know not what you speak of…
Young Barry Bonds was without question the best leftfielder in the game and he was also a feared hitter from his rookie year going forward…
go look at his stata from the early ’90′s-the skinny Barry era if you will- you’ll see that he was on a 60homer pace the strike year….it was clear that Bonds was a HOF’er from about his 3rd season on….in his later phase he just become unpitchable I mean hgh or not any guy that has the concentration and hand eye cord to see maybe 1pitch per gamr that is hittable and hit that 1pitch 500ft is just not of this baseball world
Are you saying the entire contract is averaged for the luxury tax? Like if someone signs a 2 year deal for 30 mil, but it pays 16 the first and 14 the second, the league just says it’s 15 mil both seasons? That makes no sense.
stanzy: how about some Kobe steak with Matsui knee fluid ua jus?
–
You are as foolish as you are cretinous if you thought to mar the delicate taste of Kobe Wagyu Beef with what you laughably call a sauce!
Have at thee.
stanzy
December 15th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
lets go yankees – Have to confess I haven’t been to Luger’s. However, My brother-in-law, who usually treats me to Keens as a “client,” has said they’re comparable, though he prefers Keens. Awesome thing about Keens is that it’s very simple — the menu, the preparation (they let the meat speak for itself), and even the place (nice, but not showy). Luger’s is on my list to try, though.
The Atmosshere at Keen’s is awesome -it’s like a museum. The bar is beautiful.
If you are a Steakhouse person you must go there
Haha, Yogi better than Mays. Now I’ve heard everything…
Those numbers in JK’s 5:08 post match what’s in Cot’s spreadsheet.
Make that ‘au jus’ — doh.
S.o.S.: the worry for us is not that Laptop looked better than Joba (as a starter) at the end of the season, it’s that Chad Gaudin looked better than Joba.
Hopefully Joba’s getting with the program right now. Preferably the Pettitte program.
“Are you saying the entire contract is averaged for the luxury tax? Like if someone signs a 2 year deal for 30 mil, but it pays 16 the first and 14 the second, the league just says it’s 15 mil both seasons? That makes no sense.”
There’s a reason it makes no sense.
It’s incorrect.
Folks im as big as a Yankee fan as there is. But im not going to be bias here. I thought Bucholtz pitched pretty damn good at the end of the year. Better than Joba. Am i missing something here?
___
buchholz won 6 games. 5 were against toronto and baltimore. yes you have to win those games too, but i want to see him beat a good team ie: yankees/angels/etc…
even his no hitter in 07 was against baltimore.
Pokey
December 15th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Berra played a tougher position, especially physically, for most of his career and also missed time due to WW2. Factor those in and what he did during his career far outpaces Mays.
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Berra didn’t miss any time because of WWII. He was 21 when he joined the Yankees in 1946. 21 years old in that era was really young for any player, especially for a catcher.
There were few things that Mays did that Aaron couldn’t do as well. He wasn’t as flashy on defense, but he was able to convert from a shortstop to second base and to the outfield and win 3 Gold Gloves. A great base runner and stolen base threat.
Mays, as good as he was, was a showboat. The only reason his cap would fly off was because he wore caps that were too small so they would. He said that it made him look faster. Mays was also a bigger jerk than Mantle, unless the media was around. Aaron takes a backseat to nobody.
Yogi is one cool dude
Champ,
I’m 30, I remember Barry just fine. I always thought that even without “Hulk Barry”, he was going to be a HOFer and go down as possibly one of the best players of his era. He had a very good arm, but not much else in the field.
Just because he could hit the ball a mile doesn’t mean he’s the greatest. Sosa could do that too.
Mantle was better than Mays.
Joba needs to elminate alcohol, gluten, dairy and foods high in Saturated, Trans and Omega 6 fats.
He needs to boost intake of Omega 3′s from fish, organic fruits and veggies, beans, brown rice, Soba pasta from Japan and foods rich in monunsaturated fats like Avocado, almonds, pecans, cashews and olive oil.
They should put him on the Mediterranean Diet and eliminate alcohol, gluten and dairy. If he does this, he doesn’t even need to go crazy with the cardio – the weight will fly off.
“Worst 40 mil spent?
Igawa
Pavano”
Dinner at Ruth’s Chris?
Pokey & squidward
It is correct. They changed in the prior labor agreement because the Yankees use to backload all their big contracts to lower their luxury tax number. They average out the total value of the contracts including the bonus.
# Phil December 15th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Mantle was better than Mays.
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+1
GB7, thanks for the WW2 correction.
But does Aaron really crack the top 15, possibly 20, list of all-time greats?
yeah you are missing something at the end of the year Joba made a series of 2 and 3 inning “starts” you have to throw those out….
To me a better analysis of Joba as a starter is this from Jul ’08(when he moved into the ro)-jul ’09(when the Yanks began the abbreviated starts thing)….in that one year span
Joba made
35 starts
13-4 record
3.13era
slightly more than a k per inning
fewer hits than innings pitched
if he pitches this well next year over his 34 starts would we be clamoring that he should be in the pen?
“Mantle was better than Mays.”
Not over the lengths of their career he wasn’t. Furthermore, Mays played a lot of his career in that god awful Candlestick Park.
Well stanzy now that Luger’s is on your list, I am gonna have to add Keen’s to mine.
“My dad was down the street when Big Paul Castellano was rubbed out in front of Sparks.”
A-Ha. Now I finally figured you out. You’re in Witness Protection/Relocation right? Your last name isn’t Gravano or Gotti is it?
I think I rented an apt. across the street from La Cabana. If you’re talking about the one with the stuffed cow in the window. In Recoleta.
At the very least, he should stick to white meat preferably as wild caught seafood and grass-fed organic free-range chicken and turkey.
Its funny how things have changed with Yankee fans. Just last year Joba was the stud and Hughesie was the dope. Now it is the reverse.
Joba has proven himself way more than Hughes has ever done on the big league level. I definitely think Joba has a better year next year than Hughes does
The wife and I went to Keen’s for my birthday a couple of weeks ago. It was fabulous. The food (had the filet mignon kebabs), the scotch, the service, everything. A classic. I have to go back – but only after a brief diet!
Bret-
Are you a personal trainer?
GTA IV was great. This looks even better
for any vidgame fans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sU0PwzdMiY
If Mantle had treated himself a little better on the field, or never stepped on that grate, or both, we’d be talking about him as unquestionably the greatest of all time.
But Mick did have a better OPS and OPS+ than Mays.
Mantle Career OPS+172 Mays 157. Mays was a better defender but Mantle was a very good defender. Mantle made many fewer outs per season than did Mays. Mantle had a higher OBP. Mantle had 4 or 5 seasons better than any Mays seasons, had many more RINGS even though Mays played most of his career with a better line-up. Mantle stole bases for a better % and hit into fewer DP’s. Mays lasted longer, but I’ll take Mickey and all those rings, every time.
“Are you a personal trainer?”
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no. But he did sleep at a Holliday Inn Express last night. Couldn’t help myself
On Long Island, we got to Rothmann’s…….or Bryant and Cooper. Hmm, a steakhouse steak and potatoes is my favorite meal in the whole world.
What great memories you bring back:
. . I don’t know whether it’s true, but I always heard that Will Clark’s answering machine played The Thrill is Gone. Even if it’s not true, it’s a great story.
While I was still an Orioles fan, Will played first base and it was said his machine played The Thrill is Gone. He was a lot of fun and I can truly believe the story is true.
Wow! I didn’t think you were old enough to remember Will the Thrill.
No but I’m going back to school to be a Registered Dietitian and read health-related literature whenever I can.
“Bret-
Are you a personal trainer?”
No, he just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
You beat me to it, vinny-b
“Mantle Career OPS+172 Mays 157. Mays was a better defender but Mantle was a very good defender. Mantle made many fewer outs per season than did Mays. Mantle had a higher OBP. Mantle had 4 or 5 seasons better than any Mays seasons, had many more RINGS even though Mays played most of his career with a better line-up. Mantle stole bases for a better % and hit into fewer DP’s. Mays lasted longer, but I’ll take Mickey and all those rings, every time.”
Phil,
You know as well as I do that Mays played in a terrible ballpark for hitting and furthermore, the NL had a lot more dominating pitchers than the AL during their careers.
GB, how’re you feeling?
Aaron (though I never saw him) is one of my favorite players ever – a real gentleman, to boot.
Joba needs to show a dedication to his craft and get his behind in shape……He should go to the place where Phil went to last off-season. If he doesn’t come into camp in shape, then there need to be serious questions asked about his makeup.
Bronx Jeers: I don’t remember if La Cabana is in Recoleta or not, we took a cab. There is a stuffed cow in the lobby, can’t remember if it’s visible through the window, this was a loooong time ago.
They brought us Cubans at the end of the meal. Actually kind of a touristy place, but we fit right in.
“though Mays played most of his career with a better line-up”
That’s another issue up for debate.
craw,
I hope you know as well as I do that those numbers were park and league adjusted. Excuse denied.
Man, the RS AbomiNATION isn’t giving Pete any love.
I didn’t think his post was that bad, maybe the fans up there don’t “get” him yet.
Still see that he likes mixing it up with the crowd.
They’re all delusional, though, about AGonz – they’re not getting him.
Period.
Hoyer would be out on his arse faster than you could say Dan Duquette.
GB, I’ve gone all day with my own medical bs….How ya doing old buddy ????? Also Willie would flip his cap off just as he was rounding 1st base on his way to 2nd….I watched the 62 World Series the other day..He must have performed that flip 3-4 times………Still cannot get over the great play Roger Maris made in the 7th game in the 9th inning…He saved the series on that play……As for the Mantle / Mays issue that has been going on since the 60′s ( Mantle was hands down the better player in the 50′s ), pitchers always give you the answer….They respected Willie, they feared Mantle…..See Bob Gibson on this…
Pokey
December 15th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
GB7, thanks for the WW2 correction.
But does Aaron really crack the top 15, possibly 20, list of all-time greats?
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In his era (50s-70s), He was a top three position player. As a base runner and hitter, there was little to no difference between him and Mays, and Frank Robinson was close.
Talent wise, Mantle was better than any of them. The injuries, from games that he didn’t play to games that he shouldn’t have played but did, killed his numbers. He had more power and more speed than anybody in the game. Cobb and Williams both said his talent was at a different level than any they had ever seen. That’s what makes him so tough to rank. Even with the injuries, he was legendary.
To answer your question, yes, Aaron is a top ten all-time.
Betsy – we love Bryant and Cooper. It’s good thing it’s a drive for us, otherwise I’d be in trouble. Rothmann’s is nice, but a little pricey, I think.
“craw,
I hope you know as well as I do that those numbers were park and league adjusted. Excuse denied.”
Not for me as Mantle’s advantage with OPS was the opposing teams walking him.
A couple of weeks ago one of my customers, an avid Yankee fan told me a that last year he attended a family affair down in Montclair.
Sunday morning he went to Mass at the local RC Church with his family, he said his jaw hit the floor when the person manning the collection basket was none other then Yogi Berra.
He said he jabbed his brother in the ribs stuttering pointing at Yogi, his brother whispered in reply, yeah no big deal, Yogi’s here every Sunday.
“Its funny how things have changed with Yankee fans. Just last year Joba was the stud and Hughesie was the dope. Now it is the reverse.”
You like to generalize about ‘Yankee fans’, huh? There are actually wildly divergent opinions about both players, individually and respective to each other, on this very board. So why wouldn’t that be the case with Yankee fans in general?
Didn’t Carlos Delgado fight for our right to think as individuals?
When Bonds came out to SF in ’93 and I got to see him every day (skinny guy he was) it blew me away. I still remember picking up the Sunday paper about a month into the season and he was 38 for 88 with 21 extra base hits. Tremendous instincts in field as well; not blazing speed but would put his head down, run to a spot and snag balls he had no business getting. Earned the GGs fair and square. I was just old enough for the tail end of Mantle. Bonds (natural version) is without a doubt the best I’ve witnessed, day in, day out.
Outside of `51 the only other everday player in Mickey’s line-up who is also in the Hall of Fame was Yogi. Mays played with Monte Irvin, McCovey and Cepeda who were also Hall of Famers, plus guys like the Alou bros, Jim Ray Hart, Leon Wagner, Jim Davenport, Bobby Bonds, and others. Mantle had some other good hitting teammates like Elston, Maris for a few years, Bauer sorta, but surprisingly few really good hitters given the number of championships he was in on.
Bret: Your suggested menu diet for Joba sounds intriguing. Do you know that Joba has had a weight problem since his little league days. SJ himself said that Joba weighed 280 in college. So he has lost some of that baby fat.
Mantle always walked more than Mays. He had much better control of the strikezone. And the numbers prove that in no uncertain fashion. He was getting on base more and saving outs. Willie was getting on base less and using more outs. It’s a pretty simple concept.
If you are going to bring the ballpark factor into Mays’ career by mentioning Candlestick Park, then you need to mention his 5 years in the Polo Grounds with it’s 260 foot foul lines and the 15 foot overhangs in the outfield.
Bret-
Good to know, I may take some of your advice myself & I’ll let Joba know how it’s going.
Also, are you sure OPS+ is league adjusted?
“If you are going to bring the ballpark factor into Mays’ career by mentioning Candlestick Park, then you need to mention his 5 years in the Polo Grounds with it’s 260 foot foul lines and the 15 foot overhangs in the outfield.”
Like Mantle didn’t have any advantages playing his entire career in Yankee Stadium.
to my knowledge it is league and era adjusted as well as park.
careers.
Betsy – high on pie
December 15th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
GB, how’re you feeling?
Aaron (though I never saw him) is one of my favorite players ever – a real gentleman, to boot.
Joba needs to show a dedication to his craft and get his behind in shape……He should go to the place where Phil went to last off-season. If he doesn’t come into camp in shape, then there need to be serious questions asked about his makeup.
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Afternoon, Betsy. Doing better today than yesterday. It was a bit of a rough day. hank Aaron was a class act from the first day until the last. A marvelous player in every facet of the game. He’s still all class.
“Mantle always walked more than Mays. He had much better control of the strikezone. And the numbers prove that in no uncertain fashion. He was getting on base more and saving outs. Willie was getting on base less and using more outs. It’s a pretty simple concept.”
Let’s be honest, Mantle also struck out more so I don’t know about his understanding of the strikezone. Furthemore, for the most part players from those previous eras never had walking and OBP really stress to them as batting average, hitting homers and driving in runs is how they made their money.
crawdaddy
December 15th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
“If you are going to bring the ballpark factor into Mays’ career by mentioning Candlestick Park, then you need to mention his 5 years in the Polo Grounds with it’s 260 foot foul lines and the 15 foot overhangs in the outfield.”
Like Mantle didn’t have any advantages playing his entire career in Yankee Stadium.
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He lost more home runs to left, left center and center field than he ever got to right field.
The explanation of the OPS+ formula:
http://www.baseball-reference......sary.shtml
As best I can decipher, it makes the OPS stat a little more neutral, however:
-I am not sure how accurate it can really be in comparing time periods. There are alot more variables than the numbers presented.
-Using OPS+ requires that you view OPS as the single most important stat. Just like any single stat, there are flaws in OPS-i.e. ranking players by OPS alone will not necessarily tell you who is the best player.
-This formula is only slightly less(or more) complicated than the intended to be perfect QB rating formula, which rarely is a true ranking of the best QBs.
-It is a good tool to use in an argument, but not as the sole basis for a position in an argument.
“to my knowledge it is league and era adjusted as well as park.”
When you click on OPS+ it just says park adjusted so if there is a more complete definition I want to see it.
By the way, we both know that we’re not going to convince the other about which player is better. Mays has always been the best overall player I saw in my lifetime and I’m sure you feel similarly about Mantle.
This myth about players from earlier era’s that Jim Rice started last year not walking is ludicrous. Great players have always taken a lot of walks, because controlling the strikezone is part of what made them great. And even though Mickey struck out more than Willie, he made fewer outs and GIDP’d a hell of a lot less.
Craw -
Swisher strikes out a lot but nobody denies his skill at judging the strikezone. Conversely, Cano doesn’t strike out much and I think everyone agrees that he has very little knowledge of the stirkezone
Patrick,
Mantle was intentionally walked a lot unlike Swisher.
Buddy Biancalana
December 15th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Bret-
Good to know, I may take some of your advice myself & I’ll let Joba know how it’s going.
—
You want shortcuts?
I got shortcuts.
as far as the walks issue goes between Mays and Mantle I’m sure that there were many years in Mays career- esp.early 50′s- where Mays was getting alot of balls on the corners both in and out called as strikes against him by some of the good ol boy umps out there.
Phil you don’t think that affected his .obp and contibuted to Mays making more outs than Mantle also? at least a contributing factor?
“This myth about players from earlier era’s that Jim Rice started last year not walking is ludicrous. Great players have always taken a lot of walks, because controlling the strikezone is part of what made them great. And even though Mickey struck out more than Willie, he made fewer outs and GIDP’d a hell of a lot less.”
It’s a myth because that’s what you believe, but guys back then were paid to swing the bat, not take walks which is what I believe.
Mays was IBB’d 192 times in his career Mickey just 126.
Pat M.
December 15th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
GB, I’ve gone all day with my own medical bs….How ya doing old buddy ????? Also Willie would flip his cap off just as he was rounding 1st base on his way to 2nd….I watched the 62 World Series the other day..He must have performed that flip 3-4 times………Still cannot get over the great play Roger Maris made in the 7th game in the 9th inning…He saved the series on that play……As for the Mantle / Mays issue that has been going on since the 60’s ( Mantle was hands down the better player in the 50’s ), pitchers always give you the answer….They respected Willie, they feared Mantle…..See Bob Gibson on this…
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Doing better, PaT M, thanks for asking. Hope your med exams turned out well and you get back on the links….shanking and slicing drives all over the place again. Randy needs somebody that does that as well as he does. I don’t count. You can’t shank or slice a drive that goes less than 50 yards.
Phil
December 15th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Mays was IBB’d 192 times in his career Mickey just 126.
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Mays also had 4000 more at bats.
“Mays was IBB’d 192 times in his career Mickey just 126.”
Mays also had more than 3500 plate appearances too.
“Mays was IBB’d 192 times in his career Mickey just 126.”
Or, Mays 1.54% of total PA, Mantle-1.27%
Close enough to be considered negligible, IMO.
Joe, I guess all steak houses are pricey. I can’t compare B&C to Rothmann’s because I really only go out to a steakhouse a few times a year (for sure ALWAYS on my birthday). Bryant & Cooper has this wonderful shrimp, tomato and green bean salad that I always start off with……then (regardless of the steakhouse), I get a nice thick sirloin, medium rare. Ugh, I’m making myself hungry now
It was about 2600 more plate appearances.
Anyhow good discussion as I got to go and talk to you guys tomorrow.
craw,
so John McGraw, Miller Huggins Babe, Lou, Charlie Keller, Ted Williams, Tommy Henrich, Mel Ott, Joe D, and tons of others who all came before Mickey and Willie all knew that taking walks was a weapon, but only Mickey got the message? It’s nuts. Mickey had better control of the strikezone, Willie’s patience wasn’t as good. What’s more, look at pitching records for the `50s. People were walking a lot! It was going on around Mays, but he wanted to swing. When he got old, he walked more, but by then, the Giants championship window was closed.
Betsy – I LOVE that salad, it’s the Bryant and Cooper salad, I believe.
GB7 – speaking of food, how’s your appetite. Over the years, I’ve learned that someone’s appetite is a great indicator of how they’re feeling.
Another stat that surprised me-for all the talk about pitchers not coming inside like they used to, the career HBP #s:
Mantle-13
Mays-44
Jeter-143
Arod-149
Babe Ruth-43
GB, glad you’re doing better…….!
In 1950 Berra had 597 ABs and struck out only 12 times!
Ruth greatest of all time. Had 2000 less ABs than Aaron and won some 90 games as a pitcher.
GB7,
Just got back. Not sure what health problems you had my friend. But i hope your all better and good enough to get back into the swing of things. This blog needs a regular old foegy monituring it. Miss the classic jokes. Key CLASSIC.
have a good one, Craw, and it’s been fun killing time while we await the next brilliant move by the Yanks!
Mark,
see what a small component the HBP was of Mickey’s OBP? That was when pitchers used to hit and I think they were a little scared to come inside and hit Babe or Mickey.
“craw,
so John McGraw, Miller Huggins Babe, Lou, Charlie Keller, Ted Williams, Tommy Henrich, Mel Ott, Joe D, and tons of others who all came before Mickey and Willie all knew that taking walks was a weapon, but only Mickey got the message? It’s nuts. Mickey had better control of the strikezone, Willie’s patience wasn’t as good. What’s more, look at pitching records for the `50s. People were walking a lot! It was going on around Mays, but he wanted to swing. When he got old, he walked more, but by then, the Giants championship window was closed.”
Phil,
For the most part, the black and latin players from those prior eras were taught to swing the bat and put the ball in play. I heard too many of them say that’s the way they were taught to dispute their talk as a myth. Just look at the number of times, Mays struckout by season. His worst season striking out came when he was 40 years old.
JeterJobaCanoFan2010
December 15th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Bret: Your suggested menu diet for Joba sounds intriguing. Do you know that Joba has had a weight problem since his little league days. SJ himself said that Joba weighed 280 in college. So he has lost some of that baby fat.
—
Nutritionally speaking – he is in deep doo doo as is the rest of America.
“have a good one, Craw, and it’s been fun killing time while we await the next brilliant move by the Yanks!”
Good night and the same to everyone else.
Betsy, the food is lousy. The appetite will come back around. It’s still hard to breathe, though.
“It’s a myth because that’s what you believe, but guys back then were paid to swing the bat, not take walks which is what I believe.
Take a look at how Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, Mantle, Musial, Aron, Mays, Musial, and on and on played the game.
All of them drew a ton of walks and not only hit for power, but hit for power and got on base a ton by both hitting for strong averages and drawing a lot of walks.
Since the end of the dead ball era, this has never changed. The most truly elite, great players in the history of the game have always drawn an inordinate number of walks.
Craw and Phil
the Black and Latin players when they first were allowed in the league HAD to swing the bats because they knew that any “close” pitch was going against them. So in turn they expanded their strikezones some to give themselves a fairer chance against the umps many of whom did not want these players in the game.
Thanks, S.o.S. What they removed was the lower lobe of the right lung. The real killer, though is that I haven’t had a cigarette. I need one badly. I have to hang around the smokers just to hear them talk about how good it tastes.
Jackie Robinson used to walk a lot and had a great OBP for his career. Josh Gibson also was a big walker, but he never got a chance to rock the majors.
Nick in SF
December 15th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
“Its funny how things have changed with Yankee fans. Just last year Joba was the stud and Hughesie was the dope. Now it is the reverse.”
You like to generalize about ‘Yankee fans’, huh? There are actually wildly divergent opinions about both players, individually and respective to each other, on this very board. So why wouldn’t that be the case with Yankee fans in general?
Didn’t Carlos Delgado fight for our right to think as individuals?
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I did not say EVERY Yankee fan, but it is pretty clear that the general opinion right now is that Joba would be the first one people would trade or throw to the bullpen. If you had to pick one guy to have I would not be surprised if 95% of the people on here chose Phil.
Larry Doby used to walk a lot and had differential of over .100 between his BA and OBP.
And what does Delgado have to do about this? First you say I am generalizing and then you completely generalize my view on Delgado.
Yeah how awful is it for an athlete to actually speak his mind for once instead of being a mindless drone who is too afraid to ruffle anyones feathers.
too bad Josh didn’t get the chance to show out on that level…same way it’s a shame baseball waited til Satch was 68yrs old to give him an oppurtunity
Green Tea is said to boost the neurotransmitter GABA (Gamma Aminobutyric Acid), the body’s relaxant chemical and model for the makers of Valium. It’s the theanine. The caffeine dosage is moderate, equivalent to 1/6 cup of regular coffee but overall, Green Tea wakes you up and calms you down at the same time. I drink it every morning. It’s also loaded with phytonutrients that act as antioxidants. I buy it in full leaf form at the Japanese market, boil it and strain it.
It should be classified as a drug
Not a substitute for nicotine but potent and effective.
GB7,
Sounds painfull. I think they might have also fixed you spelling problems. Your sentences arent looking like a game of scrabble. Which sucks because it just leaves me to screw up the english language on this board.
They made nicotine gum and patch in this era. Maybe it could help. Or you can always go for the second hand smoke route.
Musty kinda taste though. I cut it with Lemon or Agave or both.
How feared a slugger was Mantle? Batting 4th in the order behind Maris, Maris didn’t draw a single intentional walk.
Pitchers didn’t hit Mantle because he was baseball’s drawing card and pitchers also knew that he couldn’t get away from pitches. Not only that, but he was well-respected and alsmost idolized by players on the other teams. Early Wynn, who would knock down anybody, grabbed a young pitcher on his own team by the throat who hit Mantle, and told him to never let it happen again. Jim Bunning was another that would hit anybody, but, wouldn’t throw at Mantle.
GB7,
I was watching prime 9 and they had a pitcher from the negro leagues that they said would have been the best pitcher ever in the bigs if he had started sooner. Cant remember the name. Im sure some of you know who im talking about. What do you think about that statement?
S.o.S.
December 15th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
GB7,
Sounds painfull. I think they might have also fixed you spelling problems. Your sentences arent looking like a game of scrabble. Which sucks because it just leaves me to screw up the english language on this board.
They made nicotine gum and patch in this era. Maybe it could help. Or you can always go for the second hand smoke route.
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Trust me….Nobody’s going to help my typing and spelling short of having Mavis beacon’s fingers grafted onto my hands.
Thanks for the tip on the nicotine gum. I’ve never smoked gum before, but, I’ll try anything.
I was in an elevator once with Willie Mays.
Gary Carter was there too…
S.o.S.
December 15th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
GB7,
I was watching prime 9 and they had a pitcher from the negro leagues that they said would have been the best pitcher ever in the bigs if he had started sooner. Cant remember the name. Im sure some of you know who im talking about. What do you think about that statement?
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Yeah…that was Satchel Paige that they were talking about. Bob Feller said the same thing on Studio 42 with Bob Costas a couple of days ago.
Keens is an amazing little place. Compares with any steak I’ve had in any of the NY Steak joints. Keens also has mutton chops. Worth a try. They also have a small room (pub) with a fireplace between the main dining room and the bar. Greeeeat burgers there! Also look for Babe Ruth’s clay pipe when you’re there next.
Peter Luger’s in Brooklyn is the place to experience Luger’s, not the one in Manhassett, IMO. And Wolfgang’s is the steak house opened by former Luger’s Brooklyn majordomo Wolfgang. An old retired NYPD lieutenant friend of mine knew Wolfie and used to call him (Wolfie) and let him know when we were coming and get us a table. That was pretty cool.
The gum is terrible. Tastes like dirt and burns when you swallow.
There are the eletronic cigarettes though. And that snus stuff, which tastes pretty good but all it does is make you want to smoke.
I think Satchel Page probably was the best pitcher ever. There were a few other Negro League pitchers, Hilton Smith, Smokey Joe Williams, Leon Day, and Bill Foster among others who probably would have been Hall of Famers if they’d been able to play in the “majors.”
I’m surprised you managed to fit in there with those 2 egos filling up the thing.
Nick in SF
December 15th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
My dad was down the street when Big Paul Castellano was rubbed out in front of Sparks.
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Hey Nick !
Was he on the Big Paulie side of 46th St. or the Tommy Billotti side ?
Could someone have actually said that Mantle benefited from playing at Yankee Stadium? I guess they never saw him hit the ball. His HRs generally were not cheap just over the wall types. He hit the longest moon shots of anyone.
Mantle played so many games wrapped up like a mummy, and yet he was the best player out there. Had he been healthy he would be acknowledged as the best.
I went the patch route myself, GB. It worked. Well, it helped. But I’ll admit those first 2 weeks or so with out a smoke was like trying to speak with out using adverbs.
Thanks gb and phil. It was Page.
Tom,
What happened? Did you say anything to them? I would have done that thing in the ELF movie and pressed all the buttons so it would take them longer to get out. And no its not Stalkish.
If we’re going “Satchel,” then we gotta go Josh Gibson
http://www.nlbpa.com/gibson__josh.html
When in Tampa, Bern’s Steak House is the ultimate.
Wow GB7, I really hope you’re feeling better.
I’ve been trying to quit myself…making some modest strides.
Problem is that I really like it.
lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins)
December 15th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
I did not say EVERY Yankee fan, but it is pretty clear that the general opinion right now is that Joba would be the first one people would trade or throw to the bullpen. If you had to pick one guy to have I would not be surprised if 95% of the people on here chose Phil.
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I would rather keep Joba.
Phil Hughes changed my mind in the playoffs and I’m forever scarred by his performance in Baltimore as a starter earlier in the year. We’ve been hearing about this kid since he was 18. What was that, 5-6 years ago? I once read his slider was major-league ready so they told him not to use it and instead develop his other secondary pitches – particularly the change. As it turns out, he doesn’t have a slider and he hasn’t learned the change. He also seems like he melts easily if a call or play doesn’t go his way or if he makes a mistake – a young Mussina without Moose’s stuff.
I dont smoke. How about plan d. Would drinking more make you forget about smoking. Too drunk to think straight?
Tom on N.J.
December 15th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
I went the patch route myself, GB. It worked. Well, it helped. But I’ll admit those first 2 weeks or so with out a smoke was like trying to speak with out using adverbs.
————————————————————
They said that I needed to quit smoking cigarettes, but, didn’t say anything about not smoking grow-your-owns, so, I have that going for me.
I tried to be polite at first S.o.S.. However, I couldn’t hold out and told Mays “you know, my father once admited to me that you were better than the Mic. And he loved Mantle”. Willie laughed and shook my hand. Then Gary Carter spoke and ruined the moment.
At age 45, Satchel Paige started 6 games, completed 3 of them, with 2 being shutouts. I’d say that’s pretty good. Also had a 3.29 MLB ERA, and didn’t pitch an MLB inning until he was 41.
Bret,
I agree on Joba. But it seems (to me at least) that we are in the very small minority.
Thanks, Bronx. After a rough last couple of days, but, other than the smokeless time, today’s been pretty good.
Medical Marijuana, GB?
They said that I needed to quit smoking cigarettes, but, didn’t say anything about not smoking grow-your-owns, so, I have that going for me.
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LMAO!!
I was in a Shula’s Steak House in Bawlmer (Baltimore). Pretty darned good. Even had a bottle of Cardenal Mendoza at the bar. Excellent postprandial. It’s a smooth, Spanish Brandy aged in Port Wine casks, gets in there and sits right on top of that steak and holds it down till it says “uncle.”
I’ve tried to quit I don’t know how many times.
lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins)
December 15th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Bret,
I agree on Joba. But it seems (to me at least) that we are in the very small minority.
—
Sometimes the minority is ahead of the curve
“I’ve tried to quit I don’t know how many times.”
Quittin’s easy. Done it a hundred times myself. – Mark Twain.
murphydog,
Did you see the story about our favorite striped cat today? Remember what I said the other day about golf and PEDs?
Then Gary Carter spoke and ruined the moment.
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Tom,
Your mistake was not getting in between the two with your back facing Carter. And ignore words that arent coming from Mays’s mouth.
GB 7 :
Happy to hear you’re still battling the butts. Each day gets a little easier. Try gum …. try anything. The day will come when your wallet is fatter. Smokes ain’t cheap anymore, even at a PX. Keep hanging in. You’ve got Single A ball coming to get you through things.
Pitchers and catchers have 1st workout in 85 days.
GB7:
When you said you had trouble breathing, my first thought was maybe you should find a smaller nurse to start with and work your way up
Anyone know how the Chapman bullpen session went? Do any of you guys see the Yankees signing this guy? If he’s gonna be in the minor leagues for more than a half of a season, then IDK if I bite on this guy…i would rather spend an extra 10 million and have Holliday for LF…sign Damon for DH and filter Melky around the OF for days off or whatever you want.
But, back to Chapman…if he’s just gonna be down there in the minors for a month to work on some things, then I sign this guy…he’s dominant and a big kid. he’s got a great fastball and a good curveball that he just needs to work on location a little bit (especially when location is the key for a curve ball). Does anyone know how the workout went?
Like i said earlier, If Chapman is going to be a “work in progress” which it sounds like he’s going to be….then i would so rather sign Sheets and Holliday…that’s just me!
Rotation:
CC
AJ
Pettite
Sheets
Hughes
Bullpen:
Mo
Joba
Marte
Robertson
Romulo Sanchez
Mike Dunn
Melancon?
the Yanks had Hughes scrap the slider and taught him the curve to protect his arm and elbow….I’ve always felt that they should let him bring his slider back out as that was his put away pitch his whole young life.
I think that Young Master Hughes will be fine if we just give him the chance to take the mound every 5th day and do what he loves to do. I will agree though that I’d like to see him toughen up some and bear down more when things start to go against him. That is one quality that we’ve seen from Joba that I can make a pitch when I need to to get out of trouble that’s so improtant for a young pitcher especially.
I really hope that we open the gates and turn these two loose this year. our org will be much better off for it going forward.
I think most people are pro Hughes and leary of Joba starting due to his velocity dropping this past year. Not sure if it was due to lack of pre season preperation or trying to pace himself. There wasnt many consistant gass at 97/98. Once he went back into the pen, it seemed like he let it fly again.
Tom on N.J.
December 15th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
I went the patch route myself, GB. It worked. Well, it helped. But I’ll admit those first 2 weeks or so with out a smoke was like trying to speak with out using adverbs.
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Believe it or not, I never inhaled that much. My trouble was just having something to do with my hands. I didn’t even smoke until I went into service. If you didn’t smoke on your breaks, you picked up cigarette butts.
The Yanks had Brett Marshall scrap his plus slider and learn a curve and suddenly he had to have TJS. I know they think they are protecting arms by taking away sliders, but I wonder if they really are. I’m sure they have data, I just wonder how much.
“I will agree though that I’d like to see him toughen up some and bear down more when things start to go against him.”
I saw him do it a few times this season out of the pen. Got the K and just jogged off the mound, no fist pump. Sink or swim year coming up. We’ll see the real Phil this coming season.
“Did you see the story about our favorite striped cat today? Remember what I said the other day about golf and PEDs?”
Read it with great interest and a knowing smirk on my face. “Spinning,” eh?
murphydog
December 15th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
GB7:
When you said you had trouble breathing, my first thought was maybe you should find a smaller nurse to start with and work your way up
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I was looking for a Jane Mansfield/Loni Anderson type nurse. Somebody that would share her excess lung capacity.
“First you say I am generalizing and then you completely generalize my view on Delgado.”
I did what now???
Is there some new TOS anti-humor rule I’m not aware of??
I bet you don’t like Willie Randolph either.
Nicotrol nasal spray was pretty good. A nice rush of nicotine right to the brain. It’s probably the closest thing to smoking. It’s nasty stuff though.
The gum’s alright . Gotta get the 4 mg. stuff. Chew a couple of pieces. That’ll give you a slight buzz.
“Read it with great interest and a knowing smirk on my face. “Spinning,” eh?”
For the record, I think this story and his involvement is relatively benign, if it’s true. But those of us who are basball fans know exactly how this story ends. This is just the first loose thread on the sweater.
“I was looking for a Jane Mansfield/Loni Anderson type nurse. Somebody that would share her excess lung capacity.”
And keep you from drowning…
http://americanhistory.si.edu/......asp?ID=14
Nick,
I could not care less about what happened with Willie and Delgado. Mainly, because no one here has the facts yet people seem to think they were in the clubhouse when it all went down. I find it ridiculous when people say things like Delgado was mean to Willie. Really, you know this how?
……….rant about Delgado w/o getting to the point.
I would take Delgado on the Yankees in 2010 in a second
“This is just the first loose thread on the sweater.”
I think I hear Jeff Novitsky polishing his jackboots
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=4424048
murphydog
December 15th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
“I was looking for a Jane Mansfield/Loni Anderson type nurse. Somebody that would share her excess lung capacity.”
And keep you from drowning…
http://americanhistory.si.edu/.....;asp?ID=14
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Of course. A lot of bath tub drowings could be prevented by having extra lungs handy.
and ***drownings*** too.
I agree sometimes I think that when they “clean” these pitchers up are they doing more harm than good. Lincecum is a good example of if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. The traditional thinking would have been to clean up his delivery and eliminate the drift in his motion and make him “tall” classic…but his success lies in his staying with what he’s been taught to master since 5yrs old and the Giants honoring the agreement that they made with his dad to not change him
“I could not care less about what happened with Willie and Delgado.”
If you could care a little bit less about innocuous (sp?) comments on LoHud, we wouldn’t be ha ving this silly discussion.
So the Sox signed Cameron to a 2 year deal- talk about stupid. Theo will regret getting Lackey and Cameron in the end. The Red Sox are getting older not younger, and Cameron doesn’t play good defense at Fenway park. I remember during the 2003 ALCS Brett Boone during the Pedro Zimmer game talking about Cameron not playing well in Fenway with the Mariners because of the tricky angles and the Green Monster.
Plus the guys strikes out a lot, and he is old. And if you take a look at Lackey he doesn’t even pitch well at Fenway, he hates pitching there,lol.
The Sox will win the Wild Card and maybe they will get through the first round of the playoffs but the Yankees will take them out if they even get that far.
huh?
Forever scarred by a bad start in Baltimore…..? Better be prepared to be scarred again and again by young pitchers; wow…………
GB7, Feel better. Don’t smoke the ‘home grown’, cook with it!
Wait, so Phil has a hard time bearing down, but Joba did? We must have been watching another Joba this year……
Is there any truth to the fact that The Yanks were willing to trade Montero as the centerpiece for Roy Halladay, but wouldn’t even discuss Young Master Hughes or Joba Chamberlain
Murphy, what does that mean, “sink or swim”? Does Phil have to be great? I don’t even expect him to be good – I expect him to be very up and down. Eventually he’s going to be terrific, but he’s got too much working against him next year (having to relearn how to pitch through lineups more than once, developing a workable change, gaining consistency with his curve)……..
Pat M, I doubt Heyman was correct because I do not believe Cash would ever trade Montero…….I know he felt that way about Phil as well.
Jeremy, Lackey won’t be pitching against the Sox in Fenway. If he hated it so much, why did he sign there?
Betsy up until July Joba actually had the lowest .baa(batting avg against) w/risp for starters in the AL
Is there going to be a press conference for curtis granderson any time soon? Apparently the sox have scheduled two separate ones for lackey and cameron tomorrow. I guess the yankees are busy trying to figure out what number to put on the back of his jersey
Pat M.
December 15th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
Is there any truth to the fact that The Yanks were willing to trade Montero as the centerpiece for Roy Halladay, but wouldn’t even discuss Young Master Hughes or Joba Chamberlain
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Heyman’s tweet could be interpreted to mean that the Yankees refused to trade Montero AND Hughes or Phil in the same package.
edit: Hughes or Joba
Who is this guy?
Despite Mets reports, Sponichi has Red Sox in the lead for Igarashi with 2-year, $2-3m deal. http://bit.ly/5unDYw
about 2 hours ago from web
npbtracker
NPB Tracker
Pat,
No truth at all. They leaked that so as not to hurt the feelings of the one they were willing to build a trade around.
#yanks were willling to offer jesus montero in big package but not joba or hughes for halladay. #jays liked drabek.
about 9 hours ago from web
This is the actual tweet (above). IMO, Heyman is clearly saying the Yankees wouldn’t trade Phil or Joba, only Montero…..but I still don’t believe it.
Interesting that Heyman thinks Halladay is a coup for the Phillies (and it is, I suppose), but apparently a lot of Phillies fans are upset (presumably about trading Lee, who they undoubtedly have a lot of affection for)
#yanks were willling to offer jesus montero in big package but not joba or hughes for halladay. #jays liked drabek.
about 9 hours ago from web
This is the actual tweet (above). IMO, Heyman is clearly saying the Yankees wouldn’t trade Phil or Joba, only Montero…..but I still don’t believe it.
Interesting that Heyman thinks Halladay is a coup for the Phillies (and it is, I suppose), but apparently a lot of Phillies fans are upset (presumably about trading Lee, who they undoubtedly have a lot of affection for)
Phil, what do you mean? Are you saying the Yankees were willing to trade Joba or Hughes, but they didn’t want either one to know about it so they wouldn’t get upset…….and they didn’t care about Montero because he’s in Venezuela?
Champ809…What about the walks ????
#yanks were willling to offer jesus montero in big package but not joba or hughes for halladay. #jays liked drabek.
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Could mean, Yanks were willing to trade Jesus Montero in big package but not along with Joba or Hughes for Halladay. Jays wanted to send Roy in the NL.
Betsy
he’s a japanese reliever who throws 98, sits 94-96, whose missed the last year and half because of TJ surgery…supposedly when he’s right he’s very nasty with a kinda tricky deliv and his velo..supposedly the mets have signed him
If the Yanks had been willing to trade Montero, Halladay would be taking his Yankee physical today.
Betsy-
They might regret trading Drabek as well.Kind of like their version of Phil or Joba. Comes from a baseball family. Remember Doug drabek ?
Hmm, if that’s the case, now I’m intrigued……I’ll bet it was Joba just because Phil was on the table for Santana and he didn’t take it personally at all – he was cool as a cucumber.
The Jays did not want to face Halladay in the AL East unless the Yankees paid the special “Yankee price” and gave up Montero AND Joba or Phil.
the walks are an area that Joba needs to cut down on like a lot of pitchers….in ’08 he had done a real good job with that but again some of that is a function of blowing a 4 seamer by a hitter as opposed to trying to place a 2 seamer down and away and missing,or relying too much on the slider with 2 strikes and hitters laying off that pitch as it’s usually out off the zone.
Boy, the MLB Network Hot Stove is pretty good. I’m watching Harold Reynolds, Mitch Williams, and Jon Heyman, and the discussion is actually pretty solid. Very solid.
They do a nice job. This was a great idea by MLB. I wonder how long it will be before it starts broadcasting playoff games.
Love MLB Network.
Champ, I believe that was a mistake. I didn’t post the link from MLBTraderumors, just the tweet – he looks like he’s going to the Sox (I just hope Chapman doesn’t go there, but I really don’t see the Yankees spending the $$$. I can’t believe I’m saying this, lol).
Phil, I agree Montero was never going to be dealt. I really don’t believe Phil was going to be dealt, either – no idea how the Yankees feel about Joba.
I love the MLB net work too but it’s an idea that make sense as the guys are former players and Hart is one of the best GMs when he’s doing it and I always find his opinions and insights fascinating
Their insight is fascinating.
I saw on ESPN that the Mets signed him
sounds like they were willing to part with montero, but phil and joba were untouchable.
if it’s joba and montero, it’s a big package ft. joba
if it’s phil and montero, it’s a big package ft. phil
Does anyone know. Is Casey Close Jeter’s agent ?
m,
Earlier rumors said the the opposite – that they were unwilling to part with Montero but open to offer Phil or Joba.
So taken together, I’ve come to the conclusion that the Jays were so hellbent on sending Roy Halladay out of the AL East that they demanded Montero along with one of Hughes or Joba.
Joe, I’m still decompressing from yesterday, so I can’t deal with MLB right now…..Anything about the Yankees? Thanks!
I saw Drabek pitch at Lakewood (Phillies AA affiliate) 2 summers ago.
This kid was pitching, I didn’t know who he was, and just was really, really impressive. Then I looked at the program/roster and found it was Drabek.
You never forget when you see a kid with real talent.
Casey Close is Jeter’s agent.
MTU, sure I remember Drabek. It’s always weird (but cool) to see sons of former players make it to the bigs……especially former Yankees.
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....8;c_id=nyy
No quotes from Yankees – I really hope they are in on this kid.
Betsy -
Funny you should say you’re decompressing and avoiding the MLB hot stove. I’m doing the same, but also, I had to drive a lot this morning and usually I’ll listen to the baseball stuff on XM, but chose to avoid it today.
Thanks Phil. I wasn’t sure. Thinking about the possible connections to Sheets.
So taken together, I’ve come to the conclusion that the Jays were so hellbent on sending Roy Halladay out of the AL East that they demanded Montero along with one of Hughes or Joba.
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Add: I believe the Yankees basically tipped off other teams that they are open to trading any of the names leaked, first Phil/Joba and Montero today. The reason for the tip is Cashman wants to keep all options open and may need a starting pitcher through a trade, a pitcher that might require the Yankees to include 1 or more of the above in the SAME package.
Well, then that tweet’s worded badly, but what else is to be expected?
Brett-
I admire Cashman’s open-mindedness. It serves the Yankees well.
it’s not a badly worded tweet, it was a dishonest leak.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
The Phillies will now have a better No. 1 starter than Lee, if that’s possible. The Mariners will have two potential No. 1 starters, with Lee and Felix Hernandez. The Red Sox will have three, with Lackey, Jon Lester and Josh Beckett. The Angels, already short on arms, are left with Jered Weaver at the front of their rotation. Because the Angels lost Lackey and the Mariners picked up Lee, the AL West gets more competitive. Because the Red Sox picked up Lackey and the Yankees missed out on Halladay, the AL East gets more competitive as well.
****Wow, this guy thinks the Sox have 3 #1s – I hope I don’t start getting depressed again, lol
So they leak that they were willing to part with 2 of the 3 in the same package? That doesn’t make sense at all.
I still think the Yankees weren’t going to trade any of those kids…….
Doreen, I just want to get myself back to a better place. Yesterday, I was upset. Today ? Not so much. Halladay is gone – whatever. I’m still annoyed that the Sox got Lackey and are not done yet – if they get a big bat, I know I’m going to freak out. I really shouldn’t have even gone on CNNSI.com because I knew I’d find an article like the above that would tick me off, lol
m,
are you not talking about the leak where they said they’d be willing to build a trade around Montero, but wouldn’t trade Joba or Hughes?
Betsy -
Lackey’s not a #1, but he’s good.
Beckett’s been not as dominant.
Lester’s good.
Maybe they have 3 #2′s?
The MLB Network is outstanding and is giving ESPN baseball fits.
Let’s hope Gammons doesn’t muddy up the waters with his Boston drivel and gibberish.
Doreen,
In follow up to our earlier conversation on Halladay vs. Cliff Lee – I was doing some estimates off the top of my head regarding Halladay looking to be around 2 wins better than Lee.
SG over at the terrific RLYB actually did the analysis. It’s a very good piece. The link is below.
Next year Halladay projects to be around 1.5 wins above replacement compared to Lee and over the next 5 years looks to be 5 wins above replacement better than Lee.
I do think SG may have overestimated Lee a bit in that he set both Halladay and Lee’s expected innings pitched at the same level for 2010 (233). That decreases Roy’s advantage some.
On the whole – it’s just hard to believe how good Halladay is. It’s ridiculous.
Again, this isn’t to say the trade was a good or bad one for the phillies. They did give up some very good prospects in the deal – both Drabek and Taylor are very good.
http://www.replacementlevel.co....._cliff_lee
Just for the sake of discussion. What MLB Pitcher would a trade involving both Joba/Montero get us ?
Betsy -
I’ve learned which outlets to avoid if I want to stay positive.
Twitter seems to not be such a great thing. This is the first post-season that Twitter has been a major source of information. It’s instant sharing of thoughts. No editing. No time to think about what you’re writing. It’s raw. Sometimes cute, but I’m not sure I’m liking the thousand rumors per second nature of it.
John Lackey can be the Boston version of our ex-friend from Taiwan.
Lackey is not an Ace!
MTU
that would be Lincecum
MTU
1997 Pedro.
Just for the sake of discussion. What MLB Pitcher would a trade involving both Joba/Montero get us ?
==================
The only pitcher I give up both Joba and Montero for is King Felix.
again just for discussion purposes only. Would you do that trade for Lincecum, and do you think it would be a fair trade ?
LOL Doreen……..Believe me, I still think the Sox rotation is better. However, if we get a Sheets (which is a big IF….and then he has to be healthy and able to pitch in the AL East), we’re better. Joba and Phil have immense promise – Joba is further ahead of Phil at this time. I expect (and would be very disappointed) if Joba didn’t show up at camp in shape and primed. Now, maybe no matter what he does, his velocity will never return. That would suck – I mean, it’s understandable if he had TJ surgery, but to lose velocity permanently due to stupid tendonitis? Ugh. Phil? He’ll struggle, but it will be a great learning experience and I know he will be a great pitcher one day. However if Joba struggles…. Lots of promise on the staff with these kids, but also lots of ?. It’s just very, very hard to develop young pitchers and win at the same time.
m
December 15th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
So they leak that they were willing to part with 2 of the 3 in the same package? That doesn’t make sense at all.
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No. The leaks were separate. The original leak had Joba or Phil available. This one had Montero available. Taken together – all are available. Cashman has also said that he ‘really’ wants to add a pitcher. In a separate but also recent remark, he stated that he’d trade anyone for the right player.
So there you have it. Cashman’s exploring a trade market for starters because of the risks he sees in the free agent starting pitchers.
He has to keep all options open.
The question burning in my mind is, has he engaged other GM’s for their starters or is he waiting for them to come to him?
The fact that he acted so proactive in acquiring Granderson leads me to believe that he contacted someone long ago – just to make a contact and state an interest.
Also recently, Texas came out strong for Josh Johnson and were shot down immediately. Were they shot down because of Cashman’s initial contact or are they really trying to keep Johnson who is 2 years away from free agency and just finished a messy negotiation process for an extension that failed miserably.
Phil,
I said that it sounded like they were willing to build a package around montero, but not hughes or phil.
I said this because if phil and montero is in a deal, the deal is built around phil. if joba and montero is in a deal, the deal is built around joba.
But Bret is contending otherwise. Basically saying that they’re letting other teams know via the leak that they’re willing to give up 2 of those guys in the same deal (unless I read Bret wrong). I said that leaking that for the purpose of letting other teams know they are open to sending two of the three for a pitcher doesn’t make sense, because that doesn’t sound like a good negotiating strategy.
Doreen, I personally would never tweet. Frankly, I didn’t get any sleep during the winter meetings because I was on the computer all night checking out the dueling tweets, lol.
I’m trying to put Doc completely out of my head as just thinking of him potentially on the Yankees would make me cry, lol.
Also, I agree about picking and choosing the outlets. MLB is very good, but I honestly can’t stand hearing about the Halladay, Lackey, Cameron, etc…..deals. I want to put them all behind me and move on. I don’t want to be obsessed about other teams and the improvements they are making (specifically the Sox……..but it’s too late. I’m now worried about them signing this Ishigara guy and Chapman as well).
But Bret is contending otherwise. Basically saying that they’re letting other teams know via the leak that they’re willing to give up 2 of those guys in the same deal (unless I read Bret wrong).
—
They would never do that. The point of the leaks was to let teams know that they’re all available, not necessarily in the same package. Cashman might believe that he’ll ultimately have to include 2 of them in the same deal to get the guy he really covets.
Jackie Robinson had an OBP of > .400 six straight years, and drew a lot of walks. I’m sure there are plenty of other examples. Willie McCovey a little later, certainly; he had OBP’s of around .450 a couple of times.
Is there any evidence that African-American ballplayers during the first 10 or 15 years after Jackie Robinson actually believed that they were getting substantial numbers of bad calls by umpires because of their race, and that that’s why they didn’t walk more?
I’ve heard the old comment about Latin players supposedly swinging at everything because you can’t walk your way off an island, but I’m not so familiar with this theory.
And, catcher or not, the idea that Yogi Berra (not Mays or Aaron or Musial — everyone’s forgetting about him, it seems) is baseball’s greatest living player seems ridiculous to me. As much of a Yankee fan as I am.
Brett,
What guy do you think Cash covets? If he was going to trade 2 of the 3, he would have done it for Halladay.
To clear up any confusion, I’m only referencing the tweet Betsy cited at 7:42.
Heyman awhile ago had suggested that Joba or Phil might be made available, but that was dead wrong…..I truly don’t believe Phil or Montero could be had…Joba? More so than the others, for a variety of reasons, but even then I’m not sure how willing the Yankees would have been. 2 out of 3 was ridiculous………..Per Jayson Starks, executives think the Jays could have gotten more from Yankee kids not named Phil/Joba/Montero……but the team has the bad luck of being in the same division. Anthopolous was disingenuous that way.
Frank Robinson was a better player than Yogi too, and he’s still alive.
“They would never do that” means Cashman would never concede that kind of leverage by implying that 2 of those 3 would ever go in the same deal.
They flat weren’t trading Montero or Hughes and the only evidence you need to realize that is that Halladay is not a Yankee.
Brett,
“They would never do that” means exactly what it says. There are no other scenerios out there that make more sense than trading 2 of the 3 for Halladay.
GB7–I quit smoking after 25 years. It was very difficult, but my experience is it gets much, much better after a week. I kept saying I can’t start again because I sure didn’t want to go through quitting again.
On the best living player issue and coming from a huge Mantle fan as a kid, Mays is the best player I ever saw. No question in my mind. He could beat you in every way. I hated it when he came to bat in the All-Star game with the score tied in the 9th. He always found a way to get on and score.
CB -
Thanks for that link and the further information.
My feeling was just that Lee was your typical player that you would figure in the “wins above replacement” category. i usually think that is referring more to an average pitching/player. Lee’s better than average. But I’ll never disagree that Halladay is in a class by himself.
(I liked having a subject to focus on that wasn’t how awful the last few days have been for the Yankees, etc., etc. –
)
Would they trade them for Lincecum, Felix (in theory only). Who would hang up first ?
“Jackie Robinson had an OBP of > .400 six straight years, and drew a lot of walks. I’m sure there are plenty of other examples. Willie McCovey a little later, certainly; he had OBP’s of around .450 a couple of times.”
Take all of the truly elite – not just all start but elite – ball players since the dead ball era ended and they are remarkably similar.
As you pointed out – did someone seriously tell Willie McCovey and Frank Robinson that they shouldn’t walk? And if they did why did they draw walks so often and get on base so much more than their battings averages suggest they should?
Same thing with Latino players. I guess Pujols and Manny missed the memo that they shouldn’t be patient at the plate and control the strike zone.
It’s just strange to think that the idea that getting on base is a “modern” idea and that somehow minority ball players weren’t sent the memo that not making an out is a good idea.
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Betsy -
Anyone who says they don’t have some concerns about the Yankees’ rotation is lying. Now, the degree of concern is open to differences for each individual – their comfort level so to speak.
But, any pitching rotation has concerns. Of the two, I’m more concerned about Joba than Phil, but who really knows? I think they’re probably both motivated to finally be a major part of the rotation next season. The Yankees may end up being very, very fortunate next season.
(Or, the whole thing could fall part, but I don’t think so.)