I know you want him, but…
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 18, 2009 
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Bob Nightengale is reporting the Yankees are not going after Matt Holliday, and the folks in St. Louis are growing restless waiting for an answer from the left fielder.
Brian Cashman signed Mark Teixeira last year because he wasn’t sure an impact bat would be available this year. Now he’s talking about a 2010 free agent class that’s “incredibly more impressive” than this year’s crop. He’s said all along that pitching is his priority, but he’s added only one arm this offseason.
Never count the Yankees out, but there seem to be signs that indicate a Holliday-to-the-Yankees deal is not in the works. If anything, the Yankees seem likely to tinker with the offense while saving most of their remaining offseason cash for a risk-reward starting pitcher.
Today’s Nick Johnson deal makes it unlikely Johnny Damon will return. That’s the consensus, anyway. The Yankees and Damon seem to have started the day far, far apart in negotations, and by the time that gap closed to being simply far apart, the Johnson deal was done.
Every team always wants as many toys as possible, but isn’t this lineup already the best in baseball, and a defensive upgrade from last season?
1. Jeter, SS
2. Johnson, DH
3. Teixeira, 1B
4. Rodriguez, 3B
5. Granderson, CF
6. Posada, C
7. Cano, 2B
8. Swisher, RF
9. Cabrera, LF
C’mon Chad. Don’t be a killjoy!!
Damon overplayed his hand and took too long to understand he had no leg to stand on… now he’s lost any chance of coming back… It’s too bad really, a two year deal would have been ideal…
i play gardner in lf, better run prevention
The only thing I disagree with is that our lineup is the best in baseball. I would argue that the Phils have the best lineup, although they do have to bat a pitcher every day.
Sorry rodg12! At this point, I think the team would better off going after a pitcher anyway.
Nail on the head Chad. There isn’t a weak bat in that lineup, and except for Swish and Posada, they are all at least above average in the field.
5:33pm: Tyler Kepner of The NY Times says that Damon came back to the Yanks late Thursday and asked for two years and $20MM, however by that point the team had agreed to a deal with Johnson and there was no going back.
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. thats on Boras ..
nick johnson’s OBP
let’s rememeber that nick put up his numbers mainly playing on crappy teams with limited protection.
what do you think his OBP would be playing in front of tex and a-rod, where a pitcher just has to challange him?
So why hasn’t he signed with St. Louis, and why haven’t the Yanks addressed LF, in any other way than by signing Nick Johnson and assuring that Johnny Damon wouldn’t be back?
Holliday and the Yanks seem to be on a collision course, and until he lands somewhere else, and as long as the Yanks have a hole in LF, you cannot reasonably conclude they are not in on Holliday.
Oh, and one thing about NJ: he may have a puffy face, but dude ain’t “fat”.
Something just doesnt feel right with matsui out of the five hole and nick johnson in the two. a little uncomfortable
Sorry Damon 2 years at $20 if that is there I do it. Financially then you could trade Nick Swisher. Melky in RF. Just feel like Damon is a big part of this lineup. Only comparable impact type guy to me is Carl Crawford. Damon is also one of the few truly clutch hitters on this team.
I think the Yankees should consider Cabrera in RF with his superior arm. I know the gap in left center is big, but I think the Cabrera’s arm would prevent a lot of 1st to 3rds. And Gardner could be a late inning replacement in LF for Swisher.
Phil,
LF is already addressed. It’s Melky.
While the Phils lineup is great, I don’t think it is better than ours.
“what do you think his OBP would be playing in front of tex and a-rod, where a pitcher just has to challange him?”
His OBP could go down, but his productivity go up. He is unlikely to draw walks at the same rate as in the past, if indeed he does bat 2nd. But he could have more RBIs and better SLG if he is seeing better pitches to hit. He would have to have a BA about 25 points higher to equal his usual OBP if he is walked 10% less. So, we will see his real hitting skill this year.
IMO, he starts the season batting 2nd, but doesn’t finish it there.
Yeah, it’s Melky just like CF was gonna be Bubba Crosby, 3B was gonna be Enrique Wilson, 1B was gonna be Nick Swisher. Etc. The Yanks would NEVER concede LF to Melky Cabrera in December of a title year. Know who you root for.
That is an impressive line-up. I think that the Yankees do need 1 more mid-rotation starter (#3 or 4)
Gene, his arm is great for RF, but you want the better corner OF glove in left. Can’t imagine watching Swish in left everyday…
Great pic of NJ. Doesn’t look puffy to me.
http://razzball.com/wp-content.....ohnson.jpg
I don’t seem to understand why does the nick johnson deal make it unlike for damon to return? damon play 132 games in LF last year, and only 4 as DH. Wouldn’t Damon be better than Melky at left?
Arods healthy hip and new mental approach to hitting makes me think this lineup will be even better next year. Now NJ will grind out AB’s and opposing bullpens will enter earlier in the games..
Some of us don’t really care if we get Holliday or not. I mean he’s a good player, but I think Tex will end up being the better investment.
I think the financial flexibility that comes with passing will outweigh the difference in LF production.
Phil
We won a Championship with Melky in centerfield. I like Melky , he plays hard and plays the game the right way. If i’m getting 270 15 hrs and 75 rbi’s from my number 9 hitter . I’m all for it .
Plus i have a soft spot for the Melk Man because he’s homegrown. Man do we always have to have a mercinary out there.
Like i said. we won with the kid in center. let hime play
Chad, with all due respect, you are better than this.
Guys, read the links. The “folks in St. Louis” is not the Cardinals management or anyone that matters, but 1 writer. Weak.
Maybe the reporter is getting restless b/c he has nothing to write about, but I doubt that will pressure Matt to make a decision.
Come on, Chad, this is weak.
A nightengale tweet that the sox and Yankees aren’t interested really doesn’t mean a whole lot to me
As ok I am with the team as currently constructed, I can’t help but feel that I wish Damon smartened up sooner… why did he have to play this stupid game…
Plus, didn’t Gammons tweat that Boston made a $80 offer to Matt before looking at Lackey. Clearly there was interest at one point, which refutes the STL reporter’s tweat.
Ok lets do it this way
CF Shane Victorino Curtis Granderson – Granderson
3B Placido Polanco Alex Rodriguez – Rodriguez
2B Chase Utley Robinson Cano – Utley
1B Ryan Howard Mark Texeira – Howard
RF Jayson Werth Nick Swisher – Werth
LF Raul Ibanez Melky Cabrera – Ibanez
SS Jimmy Rollins Derek Jeter – Jeter
C Carlos Ruiz Jorge Posada – Posada
4 – 4 if you are seeing it as I am, but I think the Phils have a slight edge.
ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am sorry, I just can’t give up hope until MPB Johnny Damon actually signs with another team.
That’s funny because I recall Melky and Gardy being in the lineup all season and us winning a WS, with Melky providing a lot of big hits along the way.
No one believed that those 2 would be the CF solution either.
No glove or arm out there is better than Melky’s.
Mike RI,
I like Melky, too, but he has not developed into a consistent bat. And while you can afford a slightly below average bat in center, you can’re really in left. That’s just poor team construction if you do that.
Jon -
Teix >> Howard
Is it wrong to hope that Nick Johnson fails his physical????
Thats not exactly beyond the realm of possibility……
I’m holding out hope that the Yanks will somehow find a way to resign damon – maybe trade Melky…? Or Gardner? Not that that would be ideal, but just a thought.
So you guys don’t read the Granderson trade as some kind of comment about Melky?
In the 2009 World Series anyway, Tex was better than Howard…
Well crap,there goes the idea I spent all morning dreaming/blogging about. I actually emailed Chad after I posted that and he told me I was crazy. Guess he was right. I was sorta convinced that Cash was going to swoop in on Holliday at the last second like Batman. Cash-man. Cash-bat. Whatever.
I guess saving money for the Mauers of the world is a better move, but I still think Damon might end up landing here. I mean, really, what are his other options? I’d like to see someone who knows what they’re talking about do a list of the possible places Damon could wind up, and what the odds are he’ll go there. I don’t know enough about the needs of the other 29 teams to put a list like that together. Actually, maybe with a little research…
The Yankee edge at 3B and C is a lot larger than the Phillie edge in RF, 2B, and 1B. In fact, I would call 1B even, if you include defense, it is edge to the Yankees.
Teixeira is better than Howard.
“The Yankees made us an offer yesterday at 4 o’clock and we responded at 4:30 and they told us that Johnny just didn’t fit in their budget,” agent Scott Boras told the Associated Press.
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Boras obviously isn’t used to the Yanks actually having a budget. He expected the Yanks to over pay by like $5m and a deal would be done. I am sure Damon was surprised by it also.
*assuming that melky won’t remain the LF over the lifetime of Holliday’s contract.
You know that this leaves LF open for Carl Crawford (hmm…he’s on that FA list that Cash keeps referring to).
I know that there was some discussion about Carl Crawford and his downside, but I think he’d be a terrific player to get. Young, athletic, and good.
I read it as an All-Star CF with 30 HR potential vs a good defensive CF…
Mauer’s not gonna be a FA.
Yeah, Howard v. Teixera is either a wash or for Tex.
You can afford Melky in LF when you have a centerfielder, second baseman, and catcher all capable of 90 RBI, plus a shortstop that can hit .320 with 100 runs scored.
“Nick Johnson is a nice ballplayer, however let’s not get all giddy about him being remotely close to being in the same class with Matsui when it comes to swinging the stick….They are different players with different roles…..It’s just silly and boarderline foolish to think Nick is the hitter that Mats is right now…..Lets go yankees, if your out there, we’ll send $ 100.00 to Nick in SF on Matsui’s numbers in 2010……”
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OBP is the most important factor in hitting. And no, not a Bill James follower. When healthy, Nick Johnson is every bit the hitter Matsui is. And moving to full-time DH, am expecting NJ to match Matsui’s 2009 numbers, if he doesn’t pass them
Considering the positions that are locked up on this team, CLiff Lee and maybe another good starter are the free agents I see them chasing.
Signing Holliday this year would make it unnecessary to go after one of next year’s OF free agents. I didn’t notice anyone significantly better on the list for OFs, unless Andruw Jones were to find a time capsule and come back 10 years younger.
I’d guess they’re going for Holliday this year, and going for Lee plus maybe another pitcher next year.
but Phil. your only moving him over to left. Granderson will make up for the offenisve production.
Yes, you stress the rest of the line-up and therefore your pitching staff by having Melky in left. You can definitely do that. But that better not be your plan in December, and I don’t think it is their plan. They just upgraded Center cause they didn’t like what they had out there, you really think they like it more in Left?
Lost-
What did you mean by this little riddle:
It’s only a matter of time before what doesn’t come out in the wash comes out in the rinse.
sunny,
I don’t think this is about the budget. The Yankees offered 2/14. That’s not budget related, that’s what they think he’s worth.
If that statement by Boras is correct (Big IF), that’s pretty cold.
I don’t think the Yankees were as engaged as anyone, especially Damon, would like to believe.
Cash is one cold mother.
Phil,
I understand that it’s not how it’s ‘normally’ done, but why is it a must to have a LF that hits in the upper 2/3 of the order? Why is that such a big deal, when you have a CF that will occupy that spot?
If the lineup works and the fielders can play their positions, it doesn’t matter to me if the LF doesn’t normally hit the way Melky does.
It wasn’t that long ago that SS didn’t ‘normally’ hit for power, and then Jeter, ARod, Nomar, Tejada came along…
I don’t buy the hype on Holliday. I’d take a pass and concentrate on an arm. Honestly, I don’t like the idea of going after Crawford next year, either. I hate the idea of mercenaries at every position. Hate it.
.02.
I think Damon could have gotten 2/20 when the Yanks were still in on Halladay. I think when Halladay went to Philly some plans changed.
my guess is that the Yanks are done offensively and the focus will be on pitching (Sheets)
Grandy was a statement on Damon more than Melky. It allows us to greatly improve the defense without killing ourselves at the plate.
Phil , we won with Damon out in Left. talk about stress ..lol .. Melky will be fine . he’s not a bad defender at all. Alot better than Johnny thats for sure.
2010 – sort of a transition year?
while still fielding a really really good team, 2010 is a test-season for the yanks, with 3 crucial questions:
1) is joba a prime time SP?
2) is hughes a SP or a hot shot RP, perhaps future closer?
3) is montero really a catcher?
the answer to these questions will define 2010 off-season, regardless of how the actual season ends.
if the answer to 1 is no or maybe, be sure the yanks will pursue a SP like lee, or even trade for felix or josh johnson (esp. if the answer to 3 is also no).
by the way, question to fellow posters:
how do you create enough catching time for both montero and romine? who goes to aaa, who goes to aa?
save the dough for Carl Crawford
really, it’s a no-brainer
Mauer will never be a yankee…crawford maybe but not at the length he will demand in the market place.next year it will be jeter and Mo’s turn to come to the steinbrenner bank. the only problem is hal not george is the bank president now. hal runs this as a business. unless the yankees are terrible next year the yankees will tinker again like they are doing now.
i am an economics major…one thing i have always seen second generation owners in a family business take less chances and try to get more out of a business in profits than first generation owners.
I wouldn’t be surprised that in five years the Steinbrenner sons sell this team. They are trying a balancing act right now….cut as far as possible and keep value at the same time. this is cashman’s job now.
Howard versus Tex isn’t a wash. You can neutralize Howard by throwing lefties at him. Tex didn’t do squat during this past postseason, but I think that was “first time Yankee postseason jitters”. He’ll do better next time.
Other Phil,
It doesn’t have to be a power spot, though all corner spots shopuld be, but it should at least be an above average hitter and Melky is still not that. We’ll see what happens, but they were still talking about their hole in left at that Granderson press conference, yesterday, and it didn’t sound like they were thinking Melky would play it.
Lost-
can you also share a bit more why you think this is now the case. Is it just your opinion or something more concrete.
“Boras may finally be ready to concede his demands at this point.”
One aspect of this I’m excited about is the NJ-Gardner threat for late and close/tied: Let NJ get on base and Gardner Pinch run and steal bases.
Pokey December 18th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
Grandy was a statement on Damon more than Melky. It allows us to greatly improve the defense without killing ourselves at the plate.
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I agree. Grandy + Melky > Damon + Melky, offensively and defensively. Grandy is a better hitter and fielder than Melky. Grandy will make up for Damon’s numbers. Melky is a better fielder (and obviously much better arm) than Damon.
Holliday is better than Carl Crawford, who is gonna get overpaid then lose speed and much of his value over the life of his contract.
Cash is cold indeed, but I still think if Damon was smart and reasonable and just gave them the reasonable 2/20 in the first place he would been resigned right along with Pettitte at the same time.
Gil -
It just about has to be Montero in AAA and Romine in AA since Romine hasn’t played about A and Montero spent some time in AA last year. I suppose it’s also possible that both start in AA but I’m not too keen on that plan.
With the way the M’s are spending, they aren’t trading anyone, let alone Felix.
Montero probably goes to AAA this year with Romine in AA. When they were starting out, They’d both be in the lineup every day, one catching and one DHing.
Montero and Romine will both probably start in AA then we’ll see Monteron promoted after a month or so.
Phil,
I take some of that talk as grandstanding, just in case a Tex situation comes their way. But I just don’t see Cash committing the kind of dollars that Holliday wants to him. I find him to be overrated and best suited to the NL. Granted, Holliday is an upgrade over Melky, sure, but I don’t think he’s worth anywhere near the money that is being talked about. For me, a lot has to do with the fact that he’s out this year. If he was in next year’s FA class, I don’t think there would be anywhere near the interest.
I’d be happy to have the guy, but not for the length/dollars as it limits moves in the future. I’m happy to have Melk have the job and put in the effort to make the job his.
.02.
rodg12
at the end of the day it’s like two trains nearing the same station on the same tracks – something’s gotta give…
one of these guys, by 2011, either has to be in the majors, or traded. wrong?
I don’t think Crawford will end up being a FA. I don’t see Mauer being a FA either. Both are identified with their clubs and both have expressed desire to stay with them.
While that doesn’t mean they absolutely will, both of them hitting the FA market seems very slim to me.
That dilutes the FA class of next season a good deal. Lee is the more interesting FA next winter in any event.
Speculating on Holliday has been a blast, and while I can see it happening I am not counting on it happening. I think it all depends on how things shake out, and I think whatever is going to happen will become clear fairly soon.
I think Holliday would be a great addition to the Yankees. He plays hard, like Damon does. He comes across as someone who doesn’t like defeat and while there is some debate about his hitting in the AL, I just don’t think he is all just a product of the NL or Coors Field. No more than Pujols is just a product of the NL.
I wouldn’t count the Yankees out totally. I also wonder if the Yankees would really not try to keep the two amigos in the rotation. They have backup in Gaudin and Mitre if need be. I know they have interest in adding pitching, but there isn’t a lot out there without a trade.
pokey,
lee said he’s going to demand cc money. felix is no slouch either… do you see the mariners spending around 40-45mil on 2\5 of their rotation?
i find that hard to believe, but stranger things have happened…
Congrats Chad. You are one of the few reporters who even mentions defense in talking about the changes. I do think we will add a left fielder. Just not Holliday.
The way Montero has been slaughtering pitching I can’t see them wasting his time in AA. Most likely he gets paired with a Chris Stewart type in AAA while Romine splits time with Kyle Anson.
Johnson/Granderson for Damon/Matsui is a downgrade offensively. bloody stupid by Cashman.
it’s bloody stupider not to grab Damon if he’s willing to do 2 years at 20 million
Phil
to me the Grandy trade wasn’t as much about Melky as it was about Grandy’s glove replacing Damon’s and his offense replacing Matsui’s. If we are to believe that Cash’s plan A was to resign Damon then it had to have been with the idea being that he would primarily be a DH. I cannot fathom that they wanted Damon in LF for 2 more yrs.
Vinny-b…..You must be a disciple of nitendo….This, when healthy is a lame excuse…I like Nick Johnson and I’ve liked him ever since he came through the system….However he is not a feared game changing hitter…..I will not argue the merits of what he’s capable of doing hitting in a selective role for the club this season….However, if you know anything about the game, you’d refrain from such BS…..Nick Johnson is not a feared hitter in any pitchers mindset….Matsui is not the type of hitter any pitcher, manager wants to deal with when the game is on the line, or when runners are on base…….Matsui will have the better Hitter’s numbers when it’s all said and done come October…..Matsui is a difference maker , Johnson is a role maker type ballplayer…..
Gil -
Yeah, I agree for the most part. The other option is a position switch for one of them. It’s been discussed on here previously that Romine has the skills to potentially transition to a corner OF spot (hat-tip to GB7 who’s trumpeted this idea in the past). Even without a switch though, it’s a potentially great problem to have – two high quality catchers both ready for the bigs at the same time.
Erica,
Can’t Johnny still be your PBF even if he’s on another team? It’s like a couple where one person is a Dem and the other a Rep. He was your PBF even when he was on the Red Sox, right? If a relationship can stand that much stress, this shouldn’t be a problem for the two of you!
@Jon (yankfan212)
Our projected line up has a guy with 29 HR this season hitting in the 8th spot, and a 23 year old with 13 HR’s hitting 9th. I dont think it gets any better than that
champ809,
They said they wanted to get Grandy to upgrade CF. Damon wasn’t playing CF. We’ll see what happens, but I think they’re gonna swoop.
I doubt Nightengale knows anything more than we do – but I agree.
AS to Damon, he waited too long. He’s Boras’ boss, not the other way around. If Johnny wanted that deal from the Yanks, then no matter what Boras suggested to him, he would have told Scott to jump on it.
Melky’s going into his age 25 season.
Gil,
I think Lee is a 1 year rental. They’re already talking about a Felix extension. Plus, Lee seems like he really doesn’t like what happened and won’t be willing to resign.
All signs point to the M’s trying to shoot for the moon this season without caring how it affects their future.
If they don’t win it all, that front office should get cleaned out.
rick – I understand what you’re saying about the second generation Steinbrenners. However, I think they would have to be a bit shortsighted to sell. The Yankees brand – team, merchanidise, and YES Network – is worth close about $4-5 billion dollars. That’s an awful lot of money! Hal and his siblings may not know much about baseball, but they sure know money. Over time, they will make a lot more by holding the team than what they will get in a sale, no?
Melky wont be starting they will get someone else
Chad,
Do you really see Curtis Granderson being a better option as the 5th hitter over Jorge Posada and Robinson Cano?
If he improves against lefties, he’s the obvious choice, but I don’t think you can assume that he will. If he doesn’t improve I can already see A-Rod being walked in a big spot late in the game so that a lefty reliever can come in to get Granderson out.
There’s a quote from Derek Jeter saying that whenever the opposing team pitched around A-Rod to bring in a lefty to face Matsui, he was ready to celebrate an Upperdeki. And usually, he did.
Phil,
So, CC (Crawford) will lose his speed, but Holliday won’t?
Why do you guys think that at 33-34 which is what he’d be in the last year of a 5yr deal- that Craws speed will be gone? I for one think that if you get him off the turf now and onto grass you extend the life of his legs.
Also Figgins who is 33-34 now just had his best year and he stole 50 bases so his speed is still there.
Ichiro’s speed is still present.
Darrel Green was one of the fastest men in the NFL @ 38yrs old.
I wouldn’t be concerned about Crawford’s speed dissappearing in the next 5yrs and he would also benefit from the short rf porch in YS so his power #’s wouldjump similar to Damons and he’d still steal 50-60 bases while playing a GG lf.
Crawford will be a FA unlike Mauer because there is no way on earth the Rays can extend him the 5/75 that the Yanks will hand him next season. They know that but more importantly he and his agent know it too.
Pat – You are 100% right about Matsui. Ask any pitcher who they would rather face, and all of them would pick Johnson.
Hopefully Holliday doesn’t come here, I just get a sense he’ll be a bust or a minor bust. I don’tt consider him an elite player by any means and the $$$ is better used on pitching.
That being said he’d be great for the Mets, another big ticket player that does nothing for them
..It’s just silly and boarderline foolish to think Nick is the hitter that Mats is right now…..Lets go yankees, if your out there, we’ll send $ 100.00 to Nick in SF on Matsui’s numbers in 2010
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Pat you need to get off this tangent. They are not the same players, but Matsui is not some mythical beast that is lightyears ahead of Nick Johnson with the bat.
They have different skill sets. When he is on, Matsui is very good at going with a pitch and isn’t afraid to go the other way and he has excellent power. Nick Johnson has always walked around the same amount or more than he struck out, and is as good a contact hitter as Matsui is. He swings at less pitches, and if he can return from wrist surgery he will be as powerful as Matsui.
Nick Johnson’s career high in ISO (SLG-AVG) is the same as Johnson, both can be .200 ISO type players.
I love Matsui, he was my favorite Yankee, but you are mythologizing him and its unfair to Matsui going forward and its unfair to Nick Johnson going forward.
And for not being a feared hitter, Johnson has hit just as well as Matsui in his career and gets on base more. If Matsui was as feared, would he not walk more?
Granderson/Nick saves the yanks $15 million versus Damon/Zilla.
Save some of that, and spend some of that on 5th pitcher.
Pat M. December 18th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
Nick Johnson is a nice ballplayer, however let’s not get all giddy about him being remotely close to being in the same class with Matsui when it comes to swinging the stick….They are different players with different roles…..It’s just silly and boarderline foolish to think Nick is the hitter that Mats is right now…..Lets go yankees, if your out there, we’ll send $ 100.00 to Nick in SF on Matsui’s numbers in 2010…….You remind me of a 20 handicap Golfer, you’re all over the place with your opinions……Time to put up !!!!!!!!!
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From the last thread, you are so right. Cash screwed up, plain and simple. Epstein probably threw a party when he found out this news.
I think the Damon/Yankees divide was because of timing. Damon and Boras were pushing for more than the value the Yankees were willing to pay. Once they did those initial demands of at least 3 years and the same pay or don’t talk to us, the Yankees started to look elsewhere.
Damon might very well have timed it wrong, be it under Boras’ advice, or his own hopes for a larger payday. The Yankees losing Matsui early on pushed other things into the works.
You can’t wait too long before doors close. Once the Yankees made the deal with Johnson the need for Damon in pinstripes was reduced. No DH spot for him to occupy for a decent portion of the season. His fielding might be OK enough still, but two years makes it tougher, and with Johnson being there it takes care of the type of batter to lead off or bat 2nd.
Honestly I think the concern about payroll is more because of the economy than anything else. I have a feeling that lower ticket sales combined with heavy spending for all of the decade has left the team with less in the bank than most of us realize.
The Rays SHOULD re-sign Craw and trade Upton and play Desmond Jennings in CF but that won’t happen. I’d call up the D’Backs and offer BJ for Miguel Montero and Qualls if i were the Rays….
opinion Phil?
Almost all of Matsui’s extra RBIs over NJ last year were entirely based on HRs. If NJ can return from wrist injury after being removed from it for over a year, he can get the type of power back that will equalize their numbers.
Nick Johnson has a .950 OPS in career with runners in scoring position. He is as clutch and as focused as they come.
I think you unfairly denigrate him while trying to honor our departed Matsui-san.
Crawford’s only weapon is speed. He does not have the power, OBP, or hitting ability of Holliday.
Cashman passing on Holliday to sign a 29 yr old Crawford would be a joke.
Strictly on hitting,
Matsui>Damon>Granderson>Johnson
Other factors such as money, health, defense, and age made Yankee turn the other way from Matsui and (probably) Damon.
Let’s not compare NJ to Matsui as hitters anymore. There is nothing in NJ’s track record (and a lot of time spent on the DL)that suggests that he will match Matsui’s production in 2010.
And for the love of god, OBP is not the most important factor in baseball. If so, people like Adam Dunn and Nick Swisher should be regarded as superstars, or gods.
AVG, SLG, OPS, RISP and other situational hitting skills/stats all factor in to what kind of a hitter that particular baseball player is.
If you are an Ichiro with 400 OBP, that’s a dangerous hitter. Not so much if you are Mr. Potato Head with 400 OBP.
The only thing that Nick Johnson equals to Matsui as a hitter is probably the size of his helmet.
How many years does Holliday want exactly? I just dont feel like another long term deal is needed. Especially when he isn’t necessary.
With all this talk about budget, a point that is being missed is that Cash can almost pay for Holliday with the savings from the difference between Matsui/Damon’s salaries and Granderson/Johnson’s salaries. $26MM-$11MM=$15MM. If they pay Matt around $17MM that’s pretty close to being a wash.
Johnson is a stiff.
He is old, slow, and injury prone. He is basically Luis Castillo without the speed.
5:33pm: Tyler Kepner of The NY Times says that Damon came back to the Yanks late Thursday and asked for two years and $20MM, however by that point the team had agreed to a deal with Johnson and there was no going back.
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If this is true…wow. You don’t say “13 million or don’t call” and then right when your about to be replaced say “actually I was just kidding”
The way Damon has handled this off season has NOT impressed me. I am convinced if he wanted to be a Yankee he would be. He brought his on himself and I don’t feel bad about it at all.
Let his calf go explode for a loser.
Melky in LF is a dumb idea. How long is he going to wear that “but we won a WS with him ” mantle? His whole career? I like the kid a lot as a 4th OF – in fact, I like him a LOT better than Brett Gardner – but that’s it.
Pokey
the concern over payroll also is because of the debt service on the bonds they floated to build the stadium,revenue sharing and luxury tax issues as well as Hal being slightly more businessman like in his approach as opposed to George who kind of took more of a passionate hobbyist approach to running the team.
The 98 Yankees scored 965 runs with a LF who had a .714 OPS.
This team as currently constructed is better than that 1998 team.
1998 Team vs. 2010 Team
C – Jorge Posada – Jorge Posada
1B – Tino Martinez – Mark Teixeira
2B – Chuck Knoblauch – Robinson Cano
SS – Derek Jeter – Derek Jeter
3B – Scott Brosius – Alex Rodriguez
LF – Chad Curtis – Melky or Garder or The Hoff
CF- Bernie Williams – Curtis Granderson
RF – Paul O’neil – Nick Swisher
DH – Daryl Strawberry – Nick Johnson
By my estimation the Yankees offense of today is superior to the Yankees offense of 1998.
Cashman should just upgrade the bench and they’re ready.
If they get Holliday however I wouldn’t complain about it either.
i LOVE what cashman is doing!
damon and matsui were complimentary players. they are getting old and damon’s game has really shown signs of falling apart.
johnson and granderson are also complimentary players who are younger and may well be more productive and healthy than damon and matsui will be in the next 2 years.
i’ve watched johnson alot in the n.l. and his at-bats have just gotten better and better. granderson in cf and melky in lf gives our pitchers the kind of defense our pitchers deserve.
damon and (especially) mastui were my favorite yankees. but cashman’s right, you have to turn over the roster and you have to get younger. im really glad cash has the cajones to do what needed to be done.
i see girardi changing #’s again next offseason…
How can you count Melky out in left field? Just because he is in left doesnt mean he suddenly should be crapped on. The position argument is weak.
The extra rbis weren’t just based on homeruns. They were based on the batters that hit in front of Matsui compared to Johnson.
Secondly to Jonathon, Luis Castillo never was third in the league in on base percentage. Nick Johnson is an excellent offensive baseball player as his numbers suggest every season he plays. Its just a matter of health with Nick.
Granderson and Nick is a slight offensive upgrade off Damon and Matsui. Its even better when you include the defensive improvement of getting Damon out of our defensive outfield.
You hit Granderson 5, A-Rod is never going to see a pitch to hit in a big spot. He will be walked and a lefty will come out of the pen and make easy work of Granderson.
As PAT M has been saying, we have no #5 hitter. Godzilla was a power hitting monster who killed both types of pitching
That is another thing missing in the Matsui vs. NJ debate. A-Rod’s protection is gone.
Johnson’s not even 32 yet.
Wouldn’t part of Crawford’s value come from being a + defender?
I just don’t like the idea of paying Holliday close to Tex kind of money because 1)he’s not nearly the player (imo) as Tex and 2)I think there are still questions about Holliday as a hitter. Yes, I know, the numbers are there in his Oakland stint.
Nick D. December 18th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
If this is true…wow. You don’t say “13 million or don’t call” and then right when your about to be replaced say “actually I was just kidding”
The way Damon has handled this off season has NOT impressed me. I am convinced if he wanted to be a Yankee he would be. He brought his on himself and I don’t feel bad about it at all.
===============================================
Well, Johnny always did say he was an idiot.
Look at the bright side, he get to grow out his hair and beard, again
Chad Curtis only started 76 in LF for the ’98 Yanks.
would it really be any different if Melky were in CF and Grandy were in LF….the whole 4th OF’er comment is tired and silly and I wish people would stop repeating nonsense just because they heard somebody else say it. Melky is a 24yr old developing player.
Just for sh!#$ and giggles go look at Bernie and Paulie’s 24yr old season production #’s and then talk about 4th OF’er….Gardner can be an everday player as well if given a chance. Figgins just signed a 45 million dollar contract and some wanted the Yanks to be in on him and his 3 homers as our LF’er.
Strictly on hitting,
Matsui>Damon>Granderson>Johnson
Other factors such as money, health, defense, and age made Yankee turn the other way from Matsui and (probably) Damon.
Let’s not compare NJ to Matsui as hitters anymore. There is nothing in NJ’s track record (and a lot of time spent on the DL)that suggests that he will match Matsui’s production in 2010.
And for the love of god, OBP is not the most important factor in baseball. If so, people like Adam Dunn and Nick Swisher should be regarded as superstars, or gods.
AVG, SLG, OPS, RISP and other situational hitting skills/stats all factor in to what kind of a hitter that particular baseball player is.
If you are an Ichiro with 400 OBP, that’s a dangerous hitter. Not so much if you are Mr. Potato Head with 400 OBP.
The only thing that Nick Johnson equals to Matsui as a hitter is probably the size of his helmet.
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This is so much baloney. Studies have shown that teams with the most wins typically have the best team OBP, wOBA, or OPS. Secondly Nick Johnson in his career: .273 .402 .447 .849
Matsui in his career: .292 .370 .482 .852
Nick Johnson is not some kind of all or nothing player. He hits for a perfectly acceptable batting average, gets on base like a monster, and has decent power.
Matsui in his career hits for a slightly higher average, doesn’t walk as much despite being ‘more feared’, and hits for slightly more power (taking into account ISO, if Nick Johnson had a higher SLG than Matsui for his career he’d have far more power due to his lower career AVG)
Everyone wants a player to be a .300/.400/.500 type hitter, a guy who hits for a high average and gets on base and hits for power, but those don’t exist / are expensive.
You end up with guys like Matsui and Nick Johnson who push or pull slightly on the average-onbase-slugging triangle.
There is nothing that Matsui has done or will do that suggests he is far superior to Nick Johnson in batting. NJ’s wOBA career is higher than MAtsui’s for example.
We can all appreciate how good a hitter Matsui is, but Nick Johnson is going to surprise the lot of you when he starts dominating some games.
Another joke that Cashman thinks this Hoffmann kid is the answer… when they are cheap bench guys like Reed Johnson and Johnny Gomes available who have killed lefties in their career and can play the OF, and are used to coming off the bench.
“That is another thing missing in the Matsui vs. NJ debate. A-Rod’s protection is gone.”
Not for long.
I HATE the argument that a team can “afford” a lesser player just because that team has superior players elsewhere. First of all, the goal is to field the best team possible…….why the heck would you accept less? I don’t mean you have to have 9 all-stars, but there are much better LFers than Melky out there. Secondly, what happens one of those superior players gets hurt? Or two? We’ll still be happy having a lesser player out there when a better one would have helped enormously?
Jonathan December 18th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Johnson is a stiff.
He is old, slow, and injury prone. He is basically Luis Castillo without the speed.
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he’s only 30.
You all should look at Nick Johnson’s highlights on MLB.com. Look at his defensive highlights, his doubles, triples, hits, and home runs. You will see a player that is surprisingly more spry and active than is being thrown around here.
Grandy is more than a complimentary player. He’s a stud.
Something tells me the lefty problem is going to get fixed when Long gets a hold of him.
Nick, Damon did play his hand poorly, mostly in the timing. I think the Johnson reports motivated him but it came too late.
I really didn’t like the idea of signing him in the beginning, but he won me over. His time in pinstripes was enjoyable. He is very likable. He timed his capitulation on his salary too late, after the Yankees made the move that took away the role they wanted him for.
I think Damon being DH in place of Johnson would have been fine. I think that is how the Yankees had it drawn up.
It comes down to “you gotta know when to hold them, know when to fold them”. Damon didn’t.
m,
speed isn’t Holliday’s primary tool. He has broad based offensive skills that will age better. Remember Mickey Rivers and Willie McGee at all?
People can complain about Melky all they want, but the fact is that he is going to be our LF’er next year and Cashman thinks so as well, and his opinion is the only one that matters.
M, I don’t see what’s cold about it. The Yankees didn’t owe Johnny anything. They wanted him back at their price – he was well aware going into FA that that would be the case; they weren’t going to splurge on him. They gave him plenty of time to budge, but he didn’t….Cash did what he had to do – he couldn’t just wait around forever hoping that Damon would come around. You could easily say that Damon was recalcitrant about this whole affair.
Jonathon
Please show me the season in his career when Luis Castillo hit 23 homers 46 doubles and slugged .950. Can you?
or show me where LUIS CASTILLO has a career ops+ of 126…find that for me?
OK listen grown folks are talking so keep it down..
If Cashman is indeed on a budget, he can’t afford a pitcher (Sheets) and a left fielder like Damon or Holliday.
People can complain about Melky all they want, but the fact is that he is going to be our LF’er next year and Cashman thinks so as well, and his opinion is the only one that matters.
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I doubt Cashman feels excited by Melky in LF. If he could he would replace him. He still might. And even if that were his opinion, it doesn’t mean its the correct one or that no one can complain about it.
Johnson is a stiff.
He is old, slow, and injury prone. He is basically Luis Castillo without the speed.
All he needs to do is make it to first w/o a wheelchair every time he walks. Which is a lot.
His JOB in this lineup is his strength. Getting on base.
He was not brought in to be Ricky henderson.
I love damon, he was one of my favorite yankees..but 2 years and over 10 million a year is just too much for him. HE IS HORRIBLE in the outfield. He might be one of the worst defensive outfielders in baseball. Granderson is a really good defensive centerfielder who is younger has good power. Johnson is not great but will be a fine dh in the yankee lineup and will spell tex at first..They were both good moves..yankees saved money got two good players and are not done yet. I am not a cashman but he did a good job. You can not over pay johnny damon and matsui they are old and gettin older
Betsy but the point is Melky is not going to hurt this team as he proved last season. He also has a chance to get better. Why spend way more money when it isn’t necessary? I know it is the Yankees but still.
Boras is losing his touch in the bad economy, he can no longer count on a stupid team to throw a giant bag of money at a guy, and he can’t do his stupid waiting game because teams will look faster into other options.
Boras has made a number of miscues the last few years.
We still don’t have a LF’er (Melky is a 4th OF) and we still need another starter and help for the bench.
A Pena/Russo, Cervelli, Gardner, Hoffmann bench is a joke. Light hitting, no power, a bunch of punch and judy hitters.
damon and matsui are gone, get over it.
johnson and granderson are yankees. get behind it.
As PAT M has been saying, we have no #5 hitter. Godzilla was a power hitting monster who killed both types of pitching
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At times. And there were plenty of times when Godzilla didn’t. Let’s not over blow Matsui’s bat.
He was streaky as a hitter, his HRs usually came in bunches. Yes, he is a bigger threat than Granderson, but we don’t know how Granderson will do in this lineup, under Long’s tutoring. We don’t know how Girardi will put the lineup together either.
Phil,
That’s fine, but I still think that CC is a player worth taking a look at. But then again I really, really value defense.
Betsy,
That was not a sympathetic comment about Damon. That was admiration for Cashman.
Jerkface…..I made my point, and shame on all the phony bandwagoners that have polluted this site…..You can have all the if’s you’re comfortable with, however it’s shakey ground…I’m more a guy who perfers, has done this ….I do understand their roles are different, however so is the quality of the player…..I do hope a career built on if’s pays off in 2010…..My entire tangent was targeted at the chumps that are attempting to equate both players in the same light….I’m over it……IF Nick stays healthy, he should do fine
h. Fighters I am behind it.
I HATE the argument that a team can “afford” a lesser player just because that team has superior players elsewhere. First of all, the goal is to field the best team possible…….why the heck would you accept less? I don’t mean you have to have 9 all-stars, but there are much better LFers than Melky out there. Secondly, what happens one of those superior players gets hurt? Or two? We’ll still be happy having a lesser player out there when a better one would have helped enormously?
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The point is to field the best team within the constraints set my management.
Betsy but the point is Melky is not going to hurt this team as he proved last season. He also has a chance to get better. Why spend way more money when it isn’t necessary? I know it is the Yankees but still.
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Its arguable as to if he hurt the team or not. Perhaps with a slightly above average CFer they win 120 games, or whatever.
Just because they won the WS with Melky once, does not mean they can do it again. The Yankees should look to become better everywhere possible. Melky’s position is one of the possible areas of upgrade.
Remember how nice it was to have Hinske and Hairston on the bench? Two professional hitters who know their way around the league, know their role, and can give you a professional AB when you need it?
Going to miss that this year when we’re filling it with a bunch of minor leaguers. And a bench player is probably going to be int he lineup too (Melky).
Jerk-
it’s called LEVERAGE and the Yankees have it and Boras doesn’t.
Hey Scott. Who’s your Daddy ?
How much did we pay for our OF last year ? Matusi and Damon about $12 each. Nady $10. That’s $35m.
Sure, Swisher gets a raise and Granderson is $6 or $7m and Nick is $6 but we are still well ahead of the game.
melky won’t hurt the team, but I don’t think he’ll get much better.
The Yankees would of won 120 games with a better cf lol???
Well Cross-T, that’s okay. We don’t have a game tomorrow. So we’ll be okay. Lots of bench players available.
“Chad Curtis only started 76 in LF for the ‘98 Yanks.”
Well he must have played LF more than anyone else because he’s listed as the main LF on Baseball Reference.
He also had over 500 plate appearances so he clearly started a ton of games for the team.
My point still stands, if a guy with a .714 OPS can get over 500 plate appearances then Melky surely can.
Secondly, what happens one of those superior players gets hurt? Or two? We’ll still be happy having a lesser player out there when a better one would have helped enormously?
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that is called injury risk. no team has the kind of depth where one of their “superior” players goes down with an injury and they just pull out another superior player that they had on the backburner just in case this superior player goes down. Backups usually aren’t superior players.
Basically the call is this if the Yanks bring in Holliday lets say then they will not sign a pitcher. it seems that they are prioritizing an arm and are comfortable with the combined production of Leche/Gardy in LF .
If the COMBO of the MELKY/GARDNER give you .280-.290/20hrs/100runs/90rbis/40sbs would that be above average production from LF? i think so.
December 18th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Jerkface…..I made my point, and shame on all the phony bandwagoners that have polluted this site…..You can have all the if’s you’re comfortable with, however it’s shakey ground…I’m more a guy who perfers, has done this ….I do understand their roles are different, however so is the quality of the player…..I do hope a career built on if’s pays off in 2010…..My entire tangent was targeted at the chumps that are attempting to equate both players in the same light….I’m over it……IF Nick stays healthy, he should do fine
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Pat what you are missing is that Nick Johnson has done plenty in his career to suggest he is a great player. From the minors to his seasons with New York and the Nationals. Its not like he has never played baseball. Matsui is just as likely to succumb to injury as Nick Johnson is. We lost him in 2006 and 2008, and he wasn’t the picture of health in 2009. Even during the year he had a 2 month stretch where he looked dead.
I think you are just too blinded towards Matsui’s greatness, you need to recognize his weaknesses. My preference was always to re-sign Matsui, but barring that Nick Johnson was my second choice (Milton Bradley the third!) because of all the great things he does.
Watch him get 90 RBIs next year. Its not a matter of staying healthy, because unless he breaks his leg/wrist he is going to play 140 games. BOOK IT.
m,
I’m in favor of getting the better player now and not looking at Crawford next year. We have a title to defend now, and I want to make sure it gets defended.
I’m not thrilled with Melky in LF, but I can live with it if the Yankees grab a strong righthanded corner outfield bat for the bench. A guy like Marcus Thames, Emil Brown, or Johnney Gomes would get 200-300 ABs at the corner outfield slots and provide insurance for when (not if) someone gets hurt.
Matsui and Damon are getting older and are injury risks as much as anyone. I too love both these players but it seems like Damon has made his own bed.
The Yankees would of won 120 games with a better cf lol???
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It’s possible. You have no idea what an increase in production from CF over the course of the season would have done for the Yankees.
Just like you do not know how much Melky hurt or helped the team. We’d have to watch every AB, every play, every permutation and come to conclusions. And frankly, its impossible.
Jerkface, I agree to a point about Boras not reading this particular market very well. I also think there are some GM’s who have learned how to play the game with Boras as well.
Some of it is also the players he is representing these past two years.
This economy is hurting certain markets a lot harder than others, but no where is growing. Detroit is one of the hardest hit markets, unemployment there is over 20% by how the government rates it, and nearly 30% when you factor in those who gave up looking for jobs or have taken part time work for minimum wage.
the `98 team had Raines and Strawberry on the bench. Stuff like that just doesn’t happen anymore. Then late in the season they had Shane Spencer come up and hit 53 homers in two weeks.
Bob Nightengale?
Isn’t that the piano player from “Eyes Wide Shut”?
What does he know?
The Yankees accomplished their goal in 09. All that matters.
We’re seriously worrying about the bench players now? In December?
i dont think boras and damon blew it, i dont think matsui got away from cashman. i think the yankees had no plans to bring either back.
remember when matsui got both his knees drained? at that point, it was looking like he might be done for the season and maybe even for his career. then he got them drained and had a remarkable comeback, but it could easily have gone the other way and cash wasnt going to put himself in that position again. granderson is his offensive replacement for matsui and he is young and healthy.
damon’s legs are shot and whoever signs him to more than one year is going to regret that second year at least. and if whoever signs him plans on putting him in the OF, they will regret signing him by july of next year.
Crawford’s UZR in 2009 was 17.6 (3rd best in the AL)
Holliday’s UZR was 5.7
Holliday obviously hits for significantly more power, but this is not an area that the Yanks are deficient in.
As far as OPB goes, Holliday’s AL OBP was .378
Crawford’s 2009 OBP was .364
if the objective is to score runs and prevent runs from being scored against you, I would argue that Crawford and Holliday are, in fact, in the same league.
Chicks dig the long ball. Astute observers of the game appreciate the more intricate details…
Compare the AL East in 1998 to the AL East today.
Times have changed. Bringing up a team from 11 years ago is fruitless.
Bottom line, we need an upgrade from Melky in LF.
We still don’t have a LF’er (Melky is a 4th OF) and we still need another starter and help for the bench.
A Pena/Russo, Cervelli, Gardner, Hoffmann bench is a joke. Light hitting, no power, a bunch of punch and judy hitters.
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but you regular lineup is lined with allstar caliber hitters who are all .300 hitters with 20-40homer power and .500 slg’ers 1-8 and a guy who is a career .299 hitter in the #9 spot…so when are these bench guys playing again? and Hoffman by the way is a big man who probably has 20hr power similar to hinske he just also happens to be a stud with the glove.
We’re seriously worrying about the bench players now? In December?
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Cashman’s asleep at the wheel!!!!
I like our bench. Cervo will get some time and we can see how he is maturing. Pena will get enough ABs to not cripple the team if he sucks terribly.
The yankees just don’t need a great bench. How much did Hairston and Hinske even play in the postseason? The biggest bench tool the yankees need is a reliable backup catcher.
Melky hit .249 with a .301 OBP in 2008
You want that guy as a LF’er on a championship caliber team?
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....qolEe7j3iM
“That’s how it is,’’ Damon told The Post. “It was a team I had an eye on returning to but that’s part of baseball. They had a certain budget and we came off our (requests) big time.’’
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Yeah, Johnny -but only after absolutely refusing to budge for several weeks; he doesn’t make a good martyr
Bronx-
No he is Florence’s cousin, and is a male nurse.
Cervy is ready for that imo
Remember how nice it was to have Hinske and Hairston on the bench? Two professional hitters who know their way around the league, know their role, and can give you a professional AB when you need it?
Going to miss that this year when we’re filling it with a bunch of minor leaguers. And a bench player is probably going to be int he lineup too (Melky).
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People just say things just to say things.
Its so absurd sometimes.
We did not start the season with EITHER of those guys.
Phil,
With that attitude, our payroll would be $300M at some point.
We had Strawberry and Raines on our 98 bench when we had Curtis in LF
Who do we have on this years bench to turn to? Hoffmann? Gardner? LOL!
Please move Melky back to the 4th OF roll where he belongs.
Damon just got boned by Boras, but he can’t publicly say that and he can’t yell at the Yankees. Its unfortunate, he may still be a yankee if he comes off his requests even more.
He will be classy if he doesn’t return, just like the Yankees will return the favor to him. He will always be remembered as a true yankee. The pop up slide and dash towards 3rd is one of my favorite moments on the blu-ray. The music behind it and the slow motion realization that 3rd is uncovered is great.
Eastport: Melky rebounded with a much better 09 that was similar to his 06 and 07 seasons. Melky is 25 and has a chance to get better. He was on a championship team just last year.
Pokey,
I wasn’t talking about bench, I was talking about some of the other LF’s we used in `98 who were bundles better than Chad Curtis.
I’m sure the players are rolling their eyes at this budget talk and why it was the reason for losing the team’s most popular player.
Melky rebounded with a much better 09 that was similar to his 06 and 07 seasons. Melky is 25 and has a chance to get better. He was on a championship team just last year.
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Being on a championship team does not make a player perform better in the future. It is no indication of that player’s abilities. You know who else was on a championship team? Freddy Guzman. Sergio Mitre. Ramiro Pena. Cody Ransom. Edwar Ramirez.
Teams win championships, players develop and grow of their own accord. The 2009 yankees are the 2009 yankees, and Melky being a part of it does not grant him a 20% bonus to future performance.
Damon is going to get screwed now that he has missed the boat with the Yankees. But of course you can’t cry about a guy who has already made millions and will pick up a few million more (but not $10 million) from some other team.
I’m not a fan of the bench myself, but other things come first. I like Cervelli but let’s relax and not assume he’s going to hit.290 again. I like Pena defensively only -his small sample size is not going to fool me into thinking he can hit. I really would love Hinkse and Hairston back, but I doubt that will happen. After the big stuff is taken care of, the bench does need to be strengthened.
There is still a chance that Damon returns.
Cashman cannot be serious about having Melky in left when the season starts.
For all intents and purposes, we still need a left fielder. The one we have now is a bench player.
“the `98 team had Raines and Strawberry on the bench. Stuff like that just doesn’t happen anymore. Then late in the season they had Shane Spencer come up and hit 53 homers in two weeks.”
I know this. Still doesn’t change the fact that a guy who had a .714 OPS on one of the best teams in modern baseball got over 500 plate appearances.
Shane Spencer got 76 plate appearances that year……
M-
so what ? It’s the Steinbrenners money. They want to put on a winner.
We have more home grown guys on our 25/40 man than most teams do.
The budget should not be our concern IMO. Let the bean counters take care of that.
If the beer at the stadium gets too expensive then people can always turn to sobriety as a solution.
People sometimes talk about it as if it’s their money. It’s not.
JMO.
Why do people say this is the kind of Lf you want on a title team, when it was proved you can start Melky on a title team?
We still need another starter, but Sheets is in no rush to sign.
Does Cash get impatient and snatch Duschester up? Especially if he doesn’t want to get into a bidding war for Sheets when he finally does decide to have his throwing session and take offers?
I’m not a fan of the bench myself, but other things come first. I like Cervelli but let’s relax and not assume he’s going to hit.290 again. I like Pena defensively only -his small sample size is not going to fool me into thinking he can hit. I really would love Hinkse and Hairston back, but I doubt that will happen. After the big stuff is taken care of, the bench does need to be strengthened.
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The bench can REALLY cheaply be taken care of during the season. Just as it was this year.
Cash doesn’t get impatient only fans do.
Eastport
December 18th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Melky hit .249 with a .301 OBP in 2008
You want that guy as a LF’er on a championship caliber team?
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Nick Swisher that same year hit .219 with a .332 obp are you clamoring to ship him out too?
one more starter, tweak the bench and away we go…
Julio Lugo started for a championship Red Sox team. So did Varitek. Pedro Feliz started for a championship Phillies team.
I guess those teams had no reason to upgrade the position because they won with inferior players.
Tom,
Seriously? The players are rolling their eyes? If they Jeter, Alex, Tex, Rivera, Posada didn’t make so GD much there wouldn’t be budget talk.
But as it is budget talk is code for “we weren’t that interested anyway”. They lowballed Damon, and worse they slammed the proverbial door in his face.
But it’s Johnny’s fault trying to negotiate like a player in his prime.
Johnny damon made a big mistake, and dont take this the wrong way cause I like him, but he pushed the “eject” button on his own carseat.
If you know what i mean.
Staying with Melky as the LF’er puts a damper on this off-season.
And some guy named Hoffmann or Gardner backing him up?
Eeek….
m,
no it wouldn’t. I happen to support value all over the place. I hold a record for being under budget on a TV show I produced. For example, I’m against spending even a dime on outside relievers. I don’t really think we need to pick up another starter. I like Cervelli as the back up catcher. I prefer Granderson and Johnson to Damon and Matsui cause they’re cheaper.
There were only two players worth big dough on the market this year (not knowing that Lee would be on the market). One was Lee, the other was Holliday. Now, Holliday is approximately as good as Mark Teixeira (wRC+ 139 for MH, wRC+ 138 for Tex) , and similarly as good a fit for the Yanks.
However; because of the economy and reactive market forces, Holliday is going to get 95-100M less in his contract than Tex got last year. If we could get another Tex for 85/5, we would. And with Holliday we can and should.
Getting Holliday turns us into a 1000 run team, that can afford to carry Phil and Joba as the 4 and 5 pitchers (saving money) and I hope that’s what happens.
JJ the Yankees upgraded cf. Moving Melky to left is not a crime. It is not like he is bubba crosby.
If they need help on the bench, they’ll do what they did this past season and send some spare parts to a team out of contention to get a guy like Hairston or Hinske. The starting lineup being solid is what counts at the start of the season, not the number 23, 24 or 25 guy on the team.
I’m sorry but we are talking about the same Melky cabrera that led the team in walk off pie in yo face hits this season right?
I hardly think so, Tom. First of all, the team’s most popular player? Not. Second of all, let’s stop making assumptions about how the players feel – you must not think very highly of them if you think they believe they know more than Cash does about running a team. I’m sure they are very disappointed, but they’ll love the new guys just the same.
Jerkface, clearly there is no bad blood between the Yanks and either Damon or Matsui. Cashman loved both of them as did Hal…….but you have to separate out the emotion when doing business or it could be the ruination of you (meaning any organization, sports franchise or otherwise). Damon is a real Yankee – I love the guy. Yankees are Yankees forever…….he’ll be at Old Timer’s Days and functions, etc….after he retires.
mtu,
LOL. I said the same thing last year. m:tex as mtu:holliday.
Keep fighting the good fight.
Holliday just doesn’t excite me. But if he signs, he’ll be my favorite Yankee LF of the season.
Cash not waiting out on Sheets doesn’t mean he is impatient… it means he is practical. Putting you eggs in one basket is never a good idea. By the time Sheets has his session, I’d imagine Duch will be gone.
What if Sheets prices himself out of our range? What if some team tries to entice him with a 2 yr deal? Hell, what if gets hurt during his session? lol
Then we’re left with nothing. It is better not to wait until the last option is the only option.
Comparing the ’98 team and the ’10 team based on roster construction overlooks another key consideration:
There is far more parity now than there was in ’98 as a result of the increased revenue sharing provisions in subsequent CBAs.
So the ’10 team has to be significantly better than the ’98 team in order to have the same advantage relative to the rest of MLB.
Jerkface, One final point…Nick Johnson, if he indeed hits in the 2 hole, will see pitchers coming right after him as they certainly don’t want to face Texeria & Alex after giving up a free pass….So Nick is no longer a guy pitchers would rather by pass as was the case on his Expo / National teams….So, we’re going to see if he still has that .300 stroke that he had when he came up with the Yanks……..I’ve always liked Nick Johnson, he’s in an envoronment that he should excell in….My issue is to those you think he’s an upgrade over Matsui…..I always thought he’d be Garret Anderson type player before all the bad fortune fell upon him……
Gardner hit .275 with a .350 OBP before getting hurt
He is fine as our everyday left fielder. Having him in the 9 spot with his speed is a real asset…
Phil-
Behold, the Red Dragon :
Jeter
NJ
Tex
A-Rod
HOLLIDAY
Posada
Granderson
Cano
Swisher
Dont let the light blind you.
I think Yankees had another ex player in mind when they let Damon and Matsui go. Check out my blog to see who. Please honestly i’ve never received a comment.
Damon shouldn’t have negotiated like a player in his prime. He’s not in his prime. He’s at the back end of his career. And its a tight market. The Yanks made the right move.
I’m sorry but we are talking about the same Melky cabrera that led the team in walk off pie in yo face hits this season right?
–
As well as the same player who made the final out or was part of the last 3 outs in 53 career games, grounded into 6 late and close double plays and who made more outs than almost anyone else on the team in 2009.
Just because a player gets a walk off, does not mean they are good. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
If Cashman signed players because of the criteria some of you are throwing out our team would be terribe.
Holliday does nothing to allow us to have Phil and Joba both in the rotation. Solid performances from them to save the bullpen arms is what would allow that. Doesn’t matter how much run support they get if they spend the first 3 months of the season burning out the bullpen.
So again…….never upgrade from Melky because he was 1/25 of a WS team? Boy, I wouldn’t mind being Melky right now as he apparently has a free pass.
“I love Matsui, he was my favorite Yankee, but you are mythologizing him and its unfair to Matsui going forward and its unfair to Nick Johnson going forward.”
Matsui shouldn’t be mythologized.
On the flip side – neither should “NJ.” But he is in a significant fashion.
It’s a joke but Johnsons’s nickname about being an OBP messiah of sorts speaks to this mythologization.
Many yankee fans have had a kind of irrational love affair with Johnson. And that ties into a host of factors including Johnson being homegrown, people dislike of torre, sabermetrics, etc. And we’re seeing many aspects of that love affair now.
And I say this as someone who likes Johnson a lot.
You guys are right. Bench depth is not important. The Yankees should have spun Swisher off last season at this time since Nady was the rightfielder and Texieira was going to play 1B every day. Why would the Yankees want to add a righthanded bat when they have a proven commodity like Melky in LF and an iron horse like Nick Johnson at DH.
Overspending on some mega contract is the answer??
My issue is to those you think he’s an upgrade over Matsui…..I always thought he’d be Garret Anderson type player before all the bad fortune fell upon him……
–
I see Nick Johnson as a lateral move, the best DH on the market after Matsui, not necessarily an upgrade. However Granderson + NJ is an upgrade over Damon+Matsui.
Please give me a Melky upgrade that isn’t an over-priced veteran who would probably end p giving similar value to Melky and isn’t Matt Holliday.
Please.
M-
I am not fighting any fight really. Just having fun.
And just wait till you see him in PS mashing the ball, etc.
He’ll excite you then, and you like so many others will
appreciate his part on the TEAM.
Pat – Another excellent point.
Take NJ’s Nationals’ stats with a grain of salt.
MTU
I posted that batting order on my blog a few days ago.
If Johnny Damon truly wanted to remain a Yankee as he keeps on saying he does, then he’d tell Scott Boras to pull the reigns on a 2-year deal at $8-9M per. Boras works for Damon. He has to bide by Johnny’s wishes and it’s obvious it’s about money and years.
Matsui shouldn’t be mythologized.
On the flip side – neither should “NJ.” But he is in a significant fashion.
It’s a joke but Johnsons’s nickname about being an OBP messiah of sorts speaks to this mythologization.
Many yankee fans have had a kind of irrational love affair with Johnson. And that ties into a host of factors including Johnson being homegrown, people dislike of torre, sabermetrics, etc. And we’re seeing many aspects of that love affair now.
And I say this as someone who likes Johnson a lot.
—–
I agree with this. But people who are just declaring this is a bad move really need to look at the facts rather then just irrationally dismiss it.
Johnson is a solid major leaguer.
Chad, bold post and prediction there.
If you are wrong, can you have Sam “pie” you and post it on the blog?
There’s too much interest on both sides not to structure this deal. Sox would normally come in at the last minute to cause trouble, but they are truly tapped out at AAV of $170 million. Cards? They like him, and he would do well there, but they have Albert to think about. Who else? O’s? Nope. Mariners? Nope.
$16 x 5 set the bottom of his market. Yankees probably would do an AAV of $17-18 with bonuses up front to make the first and second years $11-12.
Yankees could use a LF. They have a CF. Lock them both up for their peak years of 29-34, and use RF as your audition for whoever. What else is out there?
This makes too much sense. If the Cards decide to get serious and offer more, game over, he’s going to St. Louis. But when the player wants to come to NY, he generally tells his agent to make it happen within reasonable parameters.
This is one where the bloggers are ahead of the professional newsies. Viva la internet!
PS: Damon goes to Mets.
“Chicks dig the long ball. Astute observers of the game appreciate the more intricate details…”
Such as the fact that UZR data is inappropriately presented without error ranges or confidence intervals and in turn this makes it inappropriate to weight the contribution of defensive skill sets equal to offensive skill sets due to the differential variance in the metrics?
I just realized this:
Johnson and Granderson < Damon and Matsui
Erica
If you’re around: start celebrating your half birthdays in June.
Some kids with summer birthdays do it so that they can celebrate in school. Why not adults whose birthdays unfortunately fall within the holiday/rotten weather season?
Oh, I almost forgot. Having Holliday allows a trade for a #4 or #5, since GGBG or Melky are now expendable.
Depending on the prospects that go with one or the other, it could be someone decent.
CB,
Fans talk and think baseball in their own way so quit preaching to others about how they should talk and think about baseball in a certain way.
What if Damon can’t get signed at all. Wouldn’t it be ironic that money was his motivation,and he gets nothing in the long run?
Pat M,
It’s not even worth arguing that Matsui scares pitchers and NJ doesn’t. Or that we have no legit protection for A-Rod now. Matsui is not a better player than NJ by any stretch. His 10 straight years on the DL indicates he isin’t more durable either.
If people can’t understand that, it is not worth arguing. They think just because Cashman made the move, it is automatically the right one.
Posada > Granderson Granderson can NOT protect A-Rod.
Johnson, if healthy, will be a productive player.
Still, his injury history is a little disconcerting. I know his injuries are flukish in nature; however, he’s been on the DL every year this decade.
Though I would love to see that lineup in play.
For the record.
PITCHING wins championships. Especially effective Power pitching.
We need more than 3 guys for the Playoffs next year.
We got a little lucky this year with that.
I dont want to have to do it that way again.
I would rather see:
CC
AJ
Andy
Sheets
pitching for us in PS. Because. With or with out the “red dragon”. If we get there we will win that rotation.
Killers all.
What if Damon can’t get signed at all. Wouldn’t it be ironic that money was his motivation,and he gets nothing in the long run?
—-
Not gunna happen. someone will pay him something. He is a very good player. The only way this happens is some weird pride thing where he won’t play for less then a certain amount that no one will give him which i guarantee you does not happen.
If he offered the Yanks 2yrs/10mil per…someone out there will pay that.
There is a rumor about Damon with the Braves. However, there is no way they pay him 10M or more per season.
“If he offered the Yanks 2yrs/10mil per…someone out there will pay that.”
Name the team!
Johnson has a Carl Pavano-list of injuries, yet he is supposed to be reliable?
We are a “slipped on a gum wrapper-out for 2 months” away from Miranda at DH.
Oh, we also have a bench player playing left field.
I just realized the Yankees have a great lineup as presented right now.
Phil-
I didn’t know
tweak it anyway you like and it is still as deadly as a black mamba.
I REALLY wish Holliday would just sign somewhere already.
Anywhere.
I don’t want the Yanks to sign him but i’ll take it at this point.
Just to end this incessant discussion.
Craw,
What’s the Braves rumor? I like Johnny and want him to have a job.
“If he offered the Yanks 2yrs/10mil per…someone out there will pay that.”
Name the team!
—-
I could see Texas, the Mets, maybe the Cubs, and mystery teams x, y and z.
crawdaddy,
Pot meet kettle.
I’m not preaching to anyone. In my last post I was pointing out that it’s silly to say that people who don’t value UZR data aren’t “nuanced fans” and don’t understand the game.
People talking about Nick’s injury history are acting like Matsui was a bastion of health. He’s not. He has knees that are a ticking time bomb. He played less than 100 games the previous year. He won’t get any healthier as he gets older.
Ham, you know I was hot for Tex last year and then went the extra mile looking for Manny. It turned out ok obviously.
This year my one trick is Holliday. I believe he is our best option to fil LF for years to come and gives us the best protection for our 4 hitter. I don’t think Granderson or Posada are the answer for 4 hole protection.
Now for my big call, I think Arod should be hitting 3 this year with Tex 4 and Holliday 5.
I’m pretty sure all the Nick fans here are thinking (as long as he’s healthy) but not writing it in every post.
I didn’t know Hank Blalock was a free agent.
He could have been a good DH option.
Not that i’m saying I don’t like Johnson…I’m just saying…I didn’t know that.
Let’s not mythologize anyone – they don’t need it. Matsui was a wonderful player for the Yankees, but he wasn’t perfect……and his knees are shot. NJ is a very good player, but he’s got his flaws. It’s ok that a player have flaws – I mean, who’s perfect? YOu can be a very good player and be imperfect. NJ fits what the Yankees are trying to do. They wanted Damon, it didn’t work out. Cash knows the pros and cons of every signing he makes – look how honest he was about Granderson and his trouble with lefties. He’s not delusional, he doesn’t acquire players expecting them to be perfect. He signed NJ because he believes that NJ will do a good job for the Yankees…..and that’s fine, that’s all NJ has to do.
Cashman could trade Montero for David Eckestein and people will still find a way to defend him.
“Cashman knows more about Montero than you do! The chances of Montero becoming a major leaguer are 20%. Eckstein is already one and the chances of him ever being as good as Eckstein are slim! Trust Ca$hmoney on this!!”
I think it’s now apparent that Damon would have accepted arbitration had it been offered.
damon’s not getting $10M/year on a multi-year deal. if that was his “come way down” offer, then he’s really gonna be bumming when he has to come way down from that to sign with the giants…
luv ya johnny, but good luck getting that.
This from a Olney Column
“I e-mailed an evaluator who saw Johnson play last year and asked how he sees Johnson fitting in with the Yankees. His response: “As long as he stays healthy, he’s a great addition to any club. Gets on base, uses the whole field. He’ll likely hit for more power in New York than he would in pretty much any other park. Not sure why he isn’t garnering more interest, though a reputation that he’s always hurt certainly doesn’t help. For what he’ll cost dollar-wise I think he’ll be a great pickup.”‘
LOL I Have no idea what UZR is nor do I care to know. I am not good at math (ok at best) and I have no desire to try and reduce baseball to a bunch of figures/graphs/whatever. I don’t judge those who do, of course…..
Nick, thanks!! I’m not an Insider, so I depend on Rishi and others to fill us in on Buster’s info/news
Good post Betsy..
I think it’s now apparent that Damon would have accepted arbitration had it been offered.
—-
I don’t think so. He would have had to decide a couple weeks ago.
I think it was foolish to not offer him arbitration. He clearly want multiple years and arbitration would have guaranteed him only 1.
CB,
It really is amazing. He is almost being set up to fail with the way people are talking about him.
And it seems the 500 lb. Elephant in the room (10 straight trips to the DL) is being swept under the rug.
He is a good player, but not a sure thing by any means. All excitement should be tempered with caution.
Being that we started the season with Nady in RF, I would say the defense to start 2010 vs to start 2009 is a wash. We get a little better in CF and LF, and a little worse in RF while everyone is a year older.
Cashman was smart enough to not offer arbitration to Damon, because it would have been in Damon’s favor.
Didn’t Damon learn anything from Abreu’s FA?
There’s really no sense going into the whole hideki vs. nj thing. Hideki is in SoCal and NJ is back in the fold. But there’s nothing wrong with someone (like me) saying that they think Hideki still had a lot to offer and that he would’ve done just fine. It’s not like they were going to risk $60M on the guy.
I’m not going to tear down Nick Johnson because he’s a Yankee now.
But we reserve the right to express our opinion about Hideki. Will will not be silenced!
Why don’t you want to know about UZR. You say you are bad at math, but you know what a good batting average, on base percentage and home run number is. Don’t fear a stat just because its new. We’ve been using stats to judge players for years. We’ve just recently discovered newer, better stats.
” I would say the defense to start 2010 vs to start 2009 is a wash. We get a little better in CF and LF, and a little worse in RF while everyone is a year older.”
so you’re saying that the amount of drop-off in nick swisher getting one year older washes out the upgrade from damon to granderson?
“It really is amazing. He is almost being set up to fail with the way people are talking about him.”
Joe,
I agree with this. I am a big Nick Johnson fan – but I also know that a lot of that if totally irrational in very important ways.
I love minor league baseball. I really wanted Johnson to anchor 1b for the yankees for a decade.
But I agree – to look past the 10 trips to the DL and constantly discuss his rate statistics (which are great – when he plays…) is misleading and is setting him up for problems down the line with the fan base.
NJ is a major unknown. Of all the things to project – by far the most difficult one is playing time.
I honestly have no idea what Johnson will produce next year. Wouldn’t surprise me is it as great. Wouldn’t surprise me if it was a complete zero.
Swish is still in his prime and may even be a little better this year.
Cashman was smart enough to not offer arbitration to Damon, because it would have been in Damon’s favor.
Didn’t Damon learn anything from Abreu’s FA?
—–
I still don’t get this.
Abreu obviously would have been ok taking a 1 year deal because he ended up doing it. I don’t think Damon is ok with that.
We obviously wanted Damon back but he wanted multiple years. He would have had to make a decision on arbitration a couple weeks ago when no market had developed for him yet.
Also, if we really offered him arbitration it would have made it WAY more likely that we would have gotten him back b/c other teams would play less because of the draft pick loss.
Damon was walking around talking about 4 years @ 13 mil a year. You REALLY think he would have accepted a 1 year arbitration deal?
M there is nothing wrong with being upset about losing Matsui. He was quite frankly a great Yankee. I just get annoyed with the emotional responses to it all. Like somehow the Yankees just cut loose their franchise. It is easy to feel this way when you just saw that man do amazing things in the ws clinching game.
http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....-1.1661584
The front end of the rotation is set with CC Sabathia, A.J. Burnett and Pettitte, but Joba Chamberlain or Phil Hughes is likely to be in the bullpen in 2010. Hughes will have an innings limit; Chamberlain will not.
Cashman will try to plug the starter hole within a budget he said is “hard and set,” meaning the Yankees probably will wait out the market for a bit to see what prices make sense.
That was evident in the Johnny Damon negotiations. The price agent Scott Boras was asking – two years, $26 million – didn’t make sense for the Yankees, whose offer was two years and $14 million. They passed on Boras’ counter-offer of two years and $22 million, already having settled on Johnson.
Among the free-agent starters most mentioned in regard to the Yankees are Ben Sheets and Justin Duchscherer, two pitchers who have had injury issues. Sheets, at the moment, is not on the Yankees’ radar because it isn’t clear when he’ll be healthy.
“I don’t think so. He would have had to decide a couple weeks ago.
I think it was foolish to not offer him arbitration. He clearly want multiple years and arbitration would have guaranteed him only 1.”
It would have been foolish to be on the hook for up to $15m for one year when you don’t want to give him that much for two years.
One year for $15m is better than two years at $20m, as long as you believe that you will still be a good player in 2011, which I think Damon does.
I find it hard to believe that Boras didn’t know that there weren’t any other offers out there in the $13m per year range. If there are, I would expect Damon to sign a contract very shortly.
My guess is that they thought the Yankees would overpay him. So by asking for $13m for three, they thought they could always get $10m for two.
That’s why I think arbitration would have been so attractive.
“crawdaddy,
Pot meet kettle.
I’m not preaching to anyone. In my last post I was pointing out that it’s silly to say that people who don’t value UZR data aren’t “nuanced fans” and don’t understand the game.”
Not quite Pot meet kettle. I understand you’re respected around these parts as some kind of baseball guru, but people are going to react in different ways whenever the team they’re rooting for undergoes changes especially after winning a WS. Fans identify with certain players on the team they root for and though the identification is not as deep as it once was during the reserve clause era, it’s still there in the free agency era. Right now, a lot of emotion is being released by Yankee fans all over the internet and sports radio due to these changes and will continue to do so with whatever changes Cashman makes in the near future. It’s what baseball fans do, whether their metric driven or not.
That’s just part of the article – the filter wouldn’t let me post the whole thing.
I think this is a joke. There is NO way Sheets isn’t on the Yankees radar as he claims he’s healthy. They love him – I seriously doubt they would just give up on him as an option while monitoring Piniero, Marquis and Davis (which is what Boland says they are doing – please? Those guys in the AL East?)
Thanks, Corey!
Not for anything but Swisher did improve his fielding and throwing throughout last season, and Nady wasn’t a great fielder.
I think it was foolish to not offer him arbitration. He clearly want multiple years and arbitration would have guaranteed him only 1.”
It would have been foolish to be on the hook for up to $15m for one year when you don’t want to give him that much for two years.
One year for $15m is better than two years at $20m, as long as you believe that you will still be a good player in 2011, which I think Damon does.
I find it hard to believe that Boras didn’t know that there weren’t any other offers out there in the $13m per year range. If there are, I would expect Damon to sign a contract very shortly.
My guess is that they thought the Yankees would overpay him. So by asking for $13m for three, they thought they could always get $10m for two.
That’s why I think arbitration would have been so attractive.
—–
Thats incredibly fair and valid Rich.
I just personally think that the years were a sticking point for them too and they would not have taken a 1 year deal.
When they were doing all that talking up about how he doesn’t age like a typical person and rumors of Damon wanting 4 years…I really think it mattered to them.
Betsy
You don’t have to be good at math to appreciate UZR or any other metric. They are relatively easy to understand. The best thing about them is that they are a check on one’s perception of a player. Sometimes they are at odds with what we see, and it can be because the stat is skewed for some reason, like sample size. But more often than not they dovetail with what we see.
Duchester would be a disaster in the AL East, IMO.
Not to mention, he has never thrown more than 141 innings in any season.
Sheets or bust. Even he is no sure thing to perform in the AL East and/or stay healthy, but he is the safest of a risky bunch (not saying much, though).
Bottom line…Granderson + Matsui is far better than Johnson + Granderson……Johnson has 700 less ab’s than Matsui yet has more whiffs…He’s a .270 hitter guys….Matsui’s career average is better than Johnson’s best season……Unless Cashman comes up with a better alternative in left field, there’s no way he should have let Mats leave….I’ll find out what the real story was when I talk to Richie Amaral who plays golf with Ken Forsch….I still say Cashman was not ready for Matsui to leave NYC, and Johnson was a fallback option……I don’t Nick Johnson was even discussed in Tampa before the Winter Meetings…..
David, isn’t UZR some kind of way to judge fielding? I’m not as up to date on these new ways of judging players – I readily admit that. I do learn a lot every day I am on boards like these, though.
To All Those Who Misunderstand:
1) No one in his right mind would think that Nick Johnson is a better hitter than either Johnny Damon or Hideki Matsui.
2) Matsui’s knees are, in the opinion of the Yankees, so arthritic that he absolutely cannot be counted on to play the OF, and might even cost him so DH time. They’d decided that Damon would be the better choice as DH. But Damon wanted full-time-player money and dug in his heels. The Yankees would have looked like fools had they not turned to someone else
3).OBP is NOT the most glamorous stat in the game. but it is certainly as important as .BA or the number of homeruns a guy hits. Johnson’s .OBP is among the game’s best. That’s important. What a team wants out of its #2 hitter is the following: ability to hit for contact, effectiveness against both LH and RH, ability to hit to all fields, on-base ability, some power, some speed. NJ is slow, but has all of those other qualities. And he wears out pitchers as well as just about anyone in the game, too (i.e. he sees a lot of pitches). The Yankees just picked up a CF who could hit 35 homeruns in 2010. They don’t need for NJ to be a slugger.
4)Remember that NJ’s bat is replacing Damon’s as the #2 bat in the lineup.
5)Granderson’s bat has replaced Matsui’s.
6)Chamomile tea can be calming for those of you who don’t have anti-anxiety medications at-hand.
Pat,
Agree. What Cashman does with left field will determine the success of this risk.
Right now, we have a bench player in left, and a guy made of glass at DH, who can’t hold Matsui’s jockstap. Both are injury risks, but one is a far better and scarier hitter and a WS MVP.
Crawdaddy,
So as I understand it, my post saying that it’s not particularly appropriate to mythologize either Matsui or Johnson is “preaching.” Ok. Got it.
I’m sure if I go through your posts that I’d never find that kind of “preaching” from you either.
“I’m pretty sure all the Nick fans here are thinking (as long as he’s healthy) but not writing it in every post.”
Phil,
Exactly, I heard Nick’s uncle on XM Radio this afternoon and they were asking him about Nick coming back to the Yankees. He stated that Nick is a really good hitter and is very cool under pressure, but his problem has been staying healthy. The hope is that being a DH will allow him to stay healthy. The two biggest injuries that NJ had in his career happened while fielding his position. If I remembered correctly, didn’t NJ’s first wrist injury as a Yankee minor player occured when he fell on his wrist playing first? Also, that nasty broken leg was due to a collision with his outfielder at the end of one baseball season.
Batting average is a really poor way to evaluate players. Nick’s career ops + is 125 to Matsui’s 124. They are equally productive baseball players. At his age, its unlikely Matsui repeats last year. A decline is very imminent.
” No one in his right mind would think that Nick Johnson is a better hitter than either Johnny Damon or Hideki Matsui.”
If the question is whether or not a 31 year old Nick Johnson can be better than a 37 year old Johnny Damon or a 36 year old Hideki Matsui going foward, IF Nick stays heatlhy, then yes, I think he can be a better hitter, so I must not be in my right mind.
So the Angels doctors are not up to the standard? They didn’t see what the Yankees doctors did?
Judging by how many injuries (baffling injuries in some cases) our players have had over the years, maybe it is our medical staff that needs to be reevaluated.
It might have been Cashman’s belief that his knees wouldn’t hold up but if it were that apparent based on his medicals, LAA would not have signed him, let alone agreed to let him try the field.
Pat,
Agree. What Cashman does with left field will determine the success of this risk.
Right now, we have a bench player in left, and a guy made of glass at DH, who can’t hold Matsui’s jockstap. Both are injury risks, but one is a far better and scarier hitter and a WS MVP.
—–
I hate those “holding the jock strap” comments.
How ridiculous.
So the Angels doctors are not up to the standard? They didn’t see what the Yankees doctors did?
Judging by how many injuries (baffling injuries in some cases) our players have had over the years, maybe it is our medical staff that needs to be reevaluated.
It might have been Cashman’s belief that his knees wouldn’t hold up but if it were that apparent based on his medicals, LAA would not have signed him, let alone agreed to let him try the field.
—–
OR the Angels thought he was worth the RISK and we didn’t.
Just like we think Nick Johnson is worth the risk.
Mariners added poison to a lack luster team today, by signing
the most non-team player Milton Bradley.Not much of a business plan!
“Crawdaddy,
So as I understand it, my post saying that it’s not particularly appropriate to mythologize either Matsui or Johnson is “preaching.” Ok. Got it.
I’m sure if I go through your posts that I’d never find that kind of “preaching” from you either.”
CB,
I’m just saying you talk down to others and you do it alot.
If Nick is healthy he can be a damn good hitter.
Ham Fighters,
I said “everyone”.
I was commenting on the post regarding this season’s defense being better than last seasons, which I think misses the point that Swisher was not supposed to start the season as the everyday center fielder, Nady was. It is my opinion that 2009 Nady is a little better in the field than Swisher. That’s a downgrade from last year to this year defensively, in my opinion. Couple that with the fact that Arod, Jeter, and Posada are all a year older. Now, I think all those factors cancel the upgrade of Melky to Granderson in CF and Damon to Melky in LF. Hence, the defense from 2009 to 2010 is a wash, in my opinion.
“Holliday just doesn’t excite me.”
Now I feel better about Holliday’s pinstriped future, mj that’s exactly what you said about CC 13 months ago!
Now Pat M, what’s this $100 that you want to send to me????
Crawdaddy:
Nick hurt his wrist a couple of time early in his career and it had something to do with his swing. He could have aggrevated it in the field at some point; I can’t rememeber. I think he left that issue behind him years ago, though. The only real concern I can see with him at DH is his back which has bothered him in the past.
You are right that his recent injuries have been flukish and field related.
To me, there was no point in choosing Hoffmann unless the Yankees are going to trade either Melky or Gardner and I think that’s the case. He would have gotten a pitcher if it weren’t.
David, A little baseball 101….You read and you evaluate a player by reading their bio by going Left to Right…You just do not pick one line…..Did you ever play ball ??? Better yet, do you even have a clue ????? Look over the player entire body of work, then and only then will you see the difference……Any questions, go buy a pack of Topps baseball cards and start from there…..Then watch a game
Phil,
Regarding Damon and the Braves. The following tweet from David O’Brien of the Atlanta Journal Constitution. From MLBTR:
“J. Damon’s made it known for some time he had interest in Braves, but he might have to take about a 50-percent pay cut for it to happen.”
Thanks.
Nick had that hammate bone injury that Tabata and Ortiz and others have had in 2000 and they sat him out for the year. I think he did it in ST if I recall correctly. Anyway, that was after his huge `99 season so we were all disappointed. I’m very glad he’s back. He’s a good kid.
NJ is a very good hitter and will do well in this line-up.
What is up with the criticism of Melky? He is hitting 9th and does well in that slot. Don’t think Casman will spend big money for a leftfielder, but could make a trade for one.
David
A decline is imminent for Matsui? How would you know?
Tabata never regained his power, so maybe Nick won’t……not that it will matter.
amazing how some posters expect an established All Star at every position….Melky is fine at LF in this current lineup!!!!
Very interesting stuff:
http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....-1.1661583
Here’s my understanding of what went down with the Yankees and Johnny Damon on Thursday:
1) As the Yankees grew increasingly encouraged about their negotiations with Nick Johnson, they reached out to Damon, still their top choice to be DH/leftfielder, and let him know that time was running out.
As the two sides went at it rather intensely, the Yankees said they’d be willing to give Damon two years and $14 million. Scott Boras, Damon’s agent, responded that Damon would sign for no less than two years and $26 million.
2) With that, in the Yankees’ minds, they had given Damon the courtesy of one last chance. They moved forward and agreed to terms with Johnson on a one-year, $5.5 million contract.
3) Boras called back and said Damon would be open to a two-year, $22-million package. Brian Cashman said that sorry, it was too late. They couldn’t go back on their agreement with Johnson.
Let’s wait and see where Damon ends up, and how much money he gets. But at this point, it appears that Damon and Boras didn’t take the Yankees’ rhetoric seriously enough.
Where do the Yankees go from here? Starting pitching. They’ll wait out this free-agent market and see what bargains emerge. They’ll get someone. My early guess is Justin Duchscherer.
I can’t imagine that Nick is going to be a zero as CB thinks could happen……
Where is Lost?
I still think this Holliday deal makes sense in some respects, and little sense in other respects. I’m thinking the last years of the Jason Giambi and Bernie Williams contracts.
It’s 2014. Jeter is 40 making $15 plus. ARod is 39 making $27 plus. Tex is 36 making $22 plus. CC at 35 is making $23 plus. Cliff Lee at 35 making $20 plus. You have $97 million tied up in guys 35 and over. Add Holliday and you’re now up to $115 in guys 35 and over.
Maybe there’s some sort of harder cap in the new CBA. Who knows? Go for it now and win 2-3 more titles, or think even longer?
Betsy,
Nick had it in 2000 and has had power since. He had subsequent wrist surgery in 2008 and it’s thought that his power will probably come back from that this year.
rawdaddy December 18th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
Phil,
Regarding Damon and the Braves. The following tweet from David O’Brien of the Atlanta Journal Constitution. From MLBTR:
“J. Damon’s made it known for some time he had interest in Braves, but he might have to take about a 50-percent pay cut for it to happen.”
lol he could have done that w/ the Yanks…Damon is an idiot
Nick in SF…..I want to place a wager ( # 100.00 )with this ”lets go yankees” character…We’ll send you the Benji to hold….The wager is that Matsui has a better season than Nick Johnson…This will be determined by a selected committe from the LoHud to make that determination…..He picks 5 I pick 5……Nick you get a 20 % vig
its fine for people to think the yankees might want to get another lf..but when you say they NEED one…thats just the selfish greedy typical yankee fan mentality that everyone hates us for…seriously people, we dont NEED a LF instead of melky…that lineup would still be great even if you had gardner in left….
ninja, the team that won the ws didnt have nady playing RF
I think if the Yankees don’t decide to pursue Holliday then they will sign the best pitcher available which is Sheets. If they do sign Holliday which I think is still a possibility then I think they go cheaper on the pitcher.
Pittsburgh,
Lost in… went out to dinner, he’ll check in later.
“Let’s wait and see where Damon ends up, and how much money he gets. But at this point, it appears that Damon and Boras didn’t take the Yankees’ rhetoric seriously enough:”
Yup – these Yanks are not the old Yanks; Cash will no longer allow this team to be used to squeeze more $$$ out of a player’s preferred team nor will let players they like hold them over a barrel. There are alternatives after all…..
johnson v. matsui is pretty stupid, granderson is the bat that will replace matsui.
“If the question is whether or not a 31 year old Nick Johnson can be better than a 37 year old Johnny Damon or a 36 year old Hideki Matsui going foward, IF Nick stays heatlhy, then yes, I think he can be a better hitter, so I must not be in my right mind.”
im drinking that cool-aid too! lol…
so its been a day pretty much since ppl came to realize damon was gone. that means the damon to the mets rumors should start up by tomorrow morning.
Why must Boras piss off organizations with outrageous demands?
Ham fighters, That’s not the issue……After several seasons here, I would think you’d understand where I’m coming from……I do have an understanding of the game…..
Phil, thanks. I have to check Nick’s stats, but is he a high average hitter or does he just walk a lot? He’s not going to walk a lot hitting in front of Tex/Alex.
The Yanks can live with Melky in LF for now………but I have serious questions as to whether he’s even going to reproduce last year’s #s. Why are people so convinced that he will? Even if he does, those are lousy #s for a corner OF.
I still don’t get who is available aside from Sheets and maybe Deutscherer.
As most people boldly guarantee there is no chance for the Yankees to sign Matt Holliday, which is distinctly possible, I can’t help but focus on two issues that suggest it is still a possibility. The first is that public statements and denials from the Yankees mean nothing. Actually, as CB has pointed out, we’ve already seen statements that were not just neutral, but were distinct attempts at public misdirection. So why publicly tout their desire/need for SP instead of talking up another offensive addition in an effort to create leverage for negotiations w/ pitching candidates? Secondly, the Yankees could add Matt Holliday ($16M-$18M) to Granderson ($5.5M) and Johnson ($5.5M) for a total of $27M-$29M. This would be less than was spent on Damon ($13M), Matsui ($13M) and Nady ($6.5M) in 2009 (total of $32.5M). So while it’s entirely possible that Holliday won’t be signed, I’m going to hold out hope until he officially signs with someone else.
“Nick had that hammate bone injury that Tabata and Ortiz and others have had in 2000 and they sat him out for the year. I think he did it in ST if I recall correctly. Anyway, that was after his huge `99 season so we were all disappointed. I’m very glad he’s back. He’s a good kid.”
Phil,
I thought when he hurt his wrist in 2000, they couldn’t figure out the exact problem for a long time. They finally did exploratory surgery, but I don’t remember it being a hammate bone issue.
Corey, this is on Damon. People forget that the player is the boss, not the agent. Damon easily could have told Boras that he wanted to make a deal with the Yanks……..and to just get it done. I think Davidoff is right – they didn’t take the Yankees at their word. I don’t think Boras or other players/agents will be making that mistake again.
NJ has a .273 career average
Matsui’s average is higher than NJ’s career high average year.
Ah, I see. I am honored that you would hold me in such esteem.
Tell you what: if you and let’s go yankees agree to terms, I would be happy to help in whatever way you agree on, but you can lower my vig from 20% to 0%. I would be happy to help the community and of course happy to facilitate a friendly wager.
In the unlikely event that something is agreed upon, we can work out the details.
People have listened too much to Cashman’s statements about the budget and starting pithching and not enough to his statments about wanting to get “younger and more athletic.” Now Damon and Matsui are gone.
Just a note to Crawdaddy, I been on this blog a long time. CB does not talk down to folks. He offers a unique perspective that is appreciated by the readers from what I have seen. So enough of the personal put downs its not necessary, just don’t read him. But in my opinion the guy knows what he is talking about.
Hoffman is going to be the LF, not Melky.
Hoffmann will beat out Melky in ST.
Walking is a skill. He’ll walk no matter who he hits in front of, just like he walked a lot when he played on the Yanks previously. As far as his average goes, most years it hovers between 280-290.
Pat M.
December 18th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
Johnson has 700 less ab’s than Matsui yet has more whiffs…
—————————
Walks do not count as AB’s so that is extremely misleading
Pat M’s baseball insticts are usually spot on. Shades of letting Reggie go after ’81?
To Jimmy, that career average is dragged down by two out of context years. Most years it was 280-290. Nick is a very good hitter.
pat i have tremendous respect for your knowlege and it is one of the things that keeps me coming back here…
I like Damon but he/Boras blew their chance by demanding too much money. He might get an Abreu 2yrs, 18 million contract. Maybe. At least Abreau is a decent outfielder, Damon stinks. And Abreau stays healthy, Damon has issues.
Interesting to see where Damon ends up and what he gets paid.
Nick in SF……When it’s all said and done, I’ll spiff you and additional 10 spot….It’s all about curing the mouth runneth over ailment…..
Pitt-
Right now “lost” is lost.
Cant always rely on him to hold your hand.
I am sure he will post if he has anything new to add.
Unfortunately due the ongoing situation he is forced to be
somewhat cryptic in his remarks.Forcing those us who are trying to glean the meaning groping at times.
there were several times when I thought I had read between the lines perfectly only to later find out I was wrong in my
interpretation.
For your sake, mine, and several others at least I HOPE he isn’t just jerking our chain, and sitting in front of some computer somewhere and having a big, big laugh.
Personally, I think he is legit but it is based more on Faith than any REAL proof of his authenticity.
That bothers me a little.
No one wants likes the possiblity of being taken for a ride.
Thought unlikely IMO it IS possible.
Phil,
I always keep my BA Prospect books from years past and found what we were looking for in the 2001 edition.
During spring training in 2000, Johnson felt something pop in his right hand when he checked a swing. Doctors struggled to diagnose the injury, which didn’t heal until his hand was placed in a cast. He didn’t play in a game all season long.
The 2002 edition talks about his recovery in 2001 from a mysterious wrist injury that orginated from a check swing during spring training.
I think the Yanks will swoop in and sign Holliday, but are waiting for the 23rd or 24th so the News and the Post can have a field day with the headlines (Happy Hollidays, Just In Time For The Holliday, etc…)
Bronx Born,
Agree. CB is one of the best posters on this site.
Some people may not like the fact that he injects realism when everyone else is involved in unrealistic fantasies, but he is right. The way NJ has been portrayed here the last few days has been amusing, to say the least. Like he has no risks attached to him and it was a no-brainer move.
consider that johnson came up as a 21 year old and matsui was a polished hitter long before he got to mlb
i just think there is no more (or less) risk in johnson than there is in matsui or damon.
Ed H.
December 18th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
Erica,
Can’t Johnny still be your PBF even if he’s on another team? It’s like a couple where one person is a Dem and the other a Rep. He was your PBF even when he was on the Red Sox, right? If a relationship can stand that much stress, this shouldn’t be a problem for the two of you!
********
That is correct Ed. I am up for a challenge! Its just not the same. I won’t be able to see him as often!
Sabremetrics were invented to counter the baseball purists who say that Nick Swisher sucks because he has a .240 average.
Doreen
December 18th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Erica
If you’re around: start celebrating your half birthdays in June.
Some kids with summer birthdays do it so that they can celebrate in school. Why not adults whose birthdays unfortunately fall within the holiday/rotten weather season?
******
Doreen-
I may just have to go that route. But its not the same. Like 3-year old Erica whined for the first time 26 years ago (I just recently rediscovered the tape of my 3rd birthday party, 3-year old Erica was really damn awesome)… “It’s MY birthday”
“Some people may not like the fact that he injects realism when everyone else is involved in unrealistic fantasies, but he is right. The way NJ has been portrayed here the last few days has been amusing, to say the least. Like he has no risks attached to him and it was a no-brainer move.”
People on this site have been talking about NJ’s injury history ever since his apparent signing became known.
Pete describes Damon on his blog.
~The Damon Dash.
“Stayed with a team for 4 yrs,played a huge role in winning a World Series along the way,then left town because he wanted more money.”
This sums up Damon, the rest of Pete’s thread isn’t worth the read.
Those who say the Yankees don’t NEED Holliday are correct. They would still have one of the best if not the best lineups in baseball and would still be able to compete for the world series. However, Holliday would make the team significantly better both offensively and defensively and would turn a very good lineup into an unbelievable one.
You can argue also that its better to wait and spend money next year. Well the class next year could be very good or it could be nearly as thin as this year. The top 3 free agents next year were supposed to be Mauer, Pujols, and Halladay. Halladay is already gone and Mauer and Pujols may very well sign extensions and never even become free agents. Without those 3 the class becomes much less impressive. Beckett may also re-sign with Boston and Holliday is better than both Werth and Crawford. Cliff Lee will probably be available but I think there is a very good chance that Holliday will end up being the best position player available from this and next year’s free agent class.
I don’t know if they will sign him or not but I don’t think saving money for next year should be a reason not to.
How do you determine who has a better season? NJ is not going to be asked to be a major HR threat like Matsui……Jeter has never won an MVP in part because he can’t put the the slugging #s of most winners (I thought he should have finished ahead of Tex this year); even so, no one questions that he’s had many great years.
if the yankees have the money & feel holliday is worth it they will sign him but i don’t think they are totally sold
& might wan’t to wait for werth,etc…
our lineup is good enough.
we need a pitcher
do we really wan’t to wait til next years fa pitchers?
the few great ones will cost between burnett & cc money
probably more than burnett
if we trade for a frontline starter we get a younger more cost controlled pitcher that allows us to allocate money elswhere so if we trade joba,montero,etc.. we are replacing young talent with young talent
i would do joba,montero & a filler in a second
pitching wins
“Just a note to Crawdaddy, I been on this blog a long time. CB does not talk down to folks. He offers a unique perspective that is appreciated by the readers from what I have seen. So enough of the personal put downs its not necessary, just don’t read him. But in my opinion the guy knows what he is talking about.”
Just a note to Bronx Born, CB is a big boy with a lot of knowledge so he doesn’t need you defending him. By the way, you don’t have to read my posts either if they bother you.
Pitt-
One more thing.
The other night I believe CB gave Losta chance to “authenticate ” himself, and to the best of my recollection I do not believe he passed.
I may be wrong about that CB might be able to say.
It’s my position that it’s fine to suspend judgement for the time being but I wont just drop my skepticism altogether.
Final thing:
If he comes in here beforehand and makes a definitive statement which happens before it has been OFFICIALLY reported then we will know for sure that he was who he was.
I am hoping he is such a person, and not a fake.
Besides i think holliday is a good move.
If we must debate the two players then let’s debate the 2009 versions. The past is the past and all that.
I didn’t follow Johnson at all, but I know that Hideki put together a terrific season in spite of his physical limitations.
Nick Johnson has a nice obp, when healthy. Lets not get all excited, because he’s gonna hit the DL is game #3. To, me, that’s why its $5.5mm wasted, and you just got for Matsui at $6.5mm, or better yet, go for Damon at 2 years $20mm and solve your LF situation as well.
Unless he has something “out of left field in the cards” (pun intended), the only way Cashman hasn’t massively bungled the entire Matsui-Johnson-Damon situation is if he signs Holliday for LF.
Damon holding out like it was 1999 for a team, he won a ring with and presumably liked playing for, could go down as one of the biggest bonehead negotiations by Boras.
That is true it is on Damon. But in this economy Boras should calm down a bit. He goes crazy with player demands and then ends up looking foolish. They listen to him and not themselves.
In 24 ML plate appearances, Jamie Hoffman managed to have a lower OBP (.167) than BA (.182) because he never walked, while having a couple of sacrifices.
Pigs fly before he gets a starting job out of ST.
Verducci says the Yanks want Crawford next year…….I think it’s silly to not make a move on LF in case CC does go FA. First, he may re-sign with Tampa; second, I’m not giving a big contract to a guy whose whole game depends on his wheels.
hAM, You can send in a C-Note as well….Damon is not part of this ……It’s my attempt to restore the IQ level of the LoHud……To question CB’s non partial imput is a prime example…..All opinions is what drives this site, it’s just seems to infested with argumentive nonsense at times……..
Numbers may not matter when comparing Johnson to whoever this year, but if Johnson goes on the DL after tripping over a gum wrapper and Miranda is our DH for 2 months, that is when Cash is going to take heat.
He signed a player who has been on the DL 10 straight years with freak injuries. It wasn’t just one or two… 10 straight. Some guys are just always injury prone. NJ is one of those guys and everyone knows it.
Not saying that Matsui is any less of a risk, but Cashman thought Johnson would not be, despite having the more pronounced injury history. We’ll see if Cashman was right this year. He is a very good player if he is healthy. Some people just cannot remain healthy.
Allan-In what universe does Nick Johnson have a 240 average.
Sabermetrics were invented to counter idiots who thought Juan Samuel was an elite player.
“Walking is a skill. He’ll walk no matter who he hits in front of, just like he walked a lot when he played on the Yanks previously.”
Strike zone control is absolutely a skill and is a key part of drawing walks. But it’s not synonymous with walking.
Walking is not fully under the batters control.
A great example of this is Adrian Gonzalez. He had a monster season and much of that was his terrific OBP. He walked 120 times.
Put Adrian Gonzalez in a real line up and it’s not as likely that he’ll draw as many walks. And that’s not because his skill set in terms of strike zone command will change.
Pat M. is correct – Nick isn’t as likely to draw as many walks hitting #2 in front of Tex and Alex. Pitchers will do their best to not walk him.
Nick will get very fat pitches to hit next year. He will have the opportunity to have a very big year with the bat – but he’s not as likely to draw walks at the same rate.
Nick’s a good hitter – he should hit well over .300 next season. His OBP will still be high if he’s healthy – but more of it will need to be derived from his batting average.
“Verducci says the Yanks want Crawford next year…….I think it’s silly to not make a move on LF in case CC does go FA. First, he may re-sign with Tampa; second, I’m not giving a big contract to a guy whose whole game depends on his wheels.”
Betsy,
I don’t quite understand your point about CC going free agent. Do you mean his opt out clause after the 2011 season and if so, what does that have to do with Crawford in 2010?
Verducci and the Yanks have been on the outs since the Torre book.
Again Matsui is just as big an injury risk as Nick going forward. Stop pretending Matsui’s knees aren’t a ticking time bomb.
Cashman is a bug proponent of “younger and more athletic”. Not a surprise he is going to be after Crawford next year.
“Johnson has 700 less ab’s than Matsui yet has more whiffs…
—————————
Walks do not count as AB’s so that is extremely misleading”
-Matsui still has less K’s per plate appearance.
That is true Crawdaddy but is there any reason why you have to be so rude?
As for defending him, that was not my purpose, my purpose was to simply say as I did that I appreciate CB and what he has to say. Simple as that.
Crawdaddy,
Give it a rest already. You told another poster in a prior thread that they were “drinking the Kool-Aid” and that is darn “arrogant.”
Word is Damon was willing to take 2 years, $20mm….seems quite reasonable. Its been reported Yanks never contacted damon until like yesterday. We may never have validation of that, but various reports seem to back that up. The Yanks never wanted Damon back, nor attempted to seriously negotiate with him. Too bad. For all the talk of his injuries and problems, he put up 12 straight seasons of 530 or more productive at bats. I believe we will be lucky to get 50 games and 200 plate appearances out of Johnson.
So Matsui strikes out a little less. Nick Johnson also creates less outs per plate appearance over the course of their careers. The less outs you create, the better chance your team has to score runs.
Betsy,
I can totally see the Yankees position. It’s best case scenario if CC makes it to free agency. But it might not suit their interest to sign Holliday to an albatross-type contract.
And from all appearances the Yankees could have Holliday for a reasonable price. Yet no movement…
I don’t think teams should snatch up players because Player X might not make it to free agency.
You sign players you want, you pass on players you don’t want, and if the one you were waiting for isn’t available when the time comes then you go to Plan B.
CC was there…Tex was there…if it makes sense the Yankees will ink a player. If it doesn’t, then pass.
I like Johnny Damon, I appreciate his time with the Yanks, but I think this will give Melky the opportunity to blossom.
He’s only 25 & going into his 4th season.
Go back & look at Bernie Williams #’s and you’ll see his #’s weren’t that special his first 3 years either. We didn’t give up on Bernie & we shouldn’t give up on Melky.
Melky is a considerable defensive upgrade in left.
IMHO he’ll likely start batting 9th to start the season, but He’ll hit his stride and move up in the order.
Melky & Cano to have breakout years!!!
“Verducci and the Yanks have been on the outs since the Torre book.”
Which is why Verducci’s been trying to suck up to Cashman with some recent positive articles.
wow. NJ still has a higher OBP so he makes fewer outs per PA than Matsui did. Who cares that more are K’s, he’s saving his teams more outs.
“If we must debate the two players then let’s debate the 2009 versions”
Mr. Cashman is clearly thinking about the 2010 versions.
I would rather have Holliday with a 35 yr old Jeter, a 34 year old Arod, a 38 year old Posada, and a 40 year old Rivera, than Crawford with a 36 yr old Jeter, a 35 yr old Arod, a 39 year old Posada, and a 41 year old Rivera.
Why wait a year for anything you can get now when you have so many important older players. If Holliday doesn’t fit in the budget fine, but if they choose not to sign him so they can sign Crawford next year then I think that is a mistake.
no.27
December 18th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
“Johnson has 700 less ab’s than Matsui yet has more whiffs…
—————————
Walks do not count as AB’s so that is extremely misleading”
-Matsui still has less K’s per plate appearance.
———————–
I never said he did not K more, I just said when you say it like that it makes it seem like NJ is a K machine which is extremely misleading as I said.
It’s only on paper at the moment, but I think we are stronger offensively this season.
We’ll know fairly soon whether or not we’ll have a real LF for next year, or if we go into the season with Melky and chase Crawford in 2011.
Damon has 626 plate appearances last year, Nick had 574 and Matsui had 526.
There’s no possibility for an albatross like contract for Holliday. The market just isn’t there for it. He’s as good as Tex but he’s gonna cost less than half as much. It’s bargain for a team like the Yankees.
And to add to that I could not care less if he K’s more but that argument has been beaten to death on this site
I don’t anybody is working on Nick’s HOF speech.
I think the point is, once Matsui left for Anaheim (after his agent failed in his attempt to bum rush the Yankees), they had to find a replacement.
As replacements go, he is a good choice.
You can slot him into the #2 hole in the order and he fits like a glove.
Is health an issue? Sure it is.
So is Matsui’s health.
CB may be the best poster on this site. To rip him is ridiculous.
Some of us don’t like dealing in fantasy.
Such as, “The Yankees can trade Brett Gardner and 9 minor leaguers for Justin Verlander”.
No they can’t because Justin Verlander is not available.
As far as losing Matsui, its the business of baseball.
You can’t keep everybody.
Some will argue that you shouldn’t keep everybody from a championship team because new blood (ie: those without rings) bring hunger to a club and that keeps them from getting fat.
Hideki Matsui and Johnny Damon were terrific Yankees. You won’t find me, or any Yankee fan with functioning brain cells, ripping them.
However, one has moved on and the other (at least to this point) has priced himself out of NY.
That’s way it goes. You pick up, find replacements and move on.
“Crawdaddy,
Give it a rest already. You told another poster in a prior thread that they were “drinking the Kool-Aid” and that is darn “arrogant.”
CB,
How many of my other posts you’ve been researching the last hour or so? I’ve made my point and moved on, but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t respond to posts aimed at me.
Oops. The first CC is Carl Crawford. The last one was CC Sabathia.
crawdaddy-
i’ve never seen CB talk down to anyone.
on issues like wang’s release last summer where we had a different opinion , the debate was always respectful (and it turned out he was right on that one ).
you on the other hand seem to have never met an opinion of yours that you question.
there are a few people on this blog i would pay money to be on a baseball field with and you’re one of them.
it’s not a compliment.
Last offseason people said the same about Melky. I dont care if he plays left field. Him batting 9th for this team is perfectly acceptable. He is not some black hole out there.
Of course neither Damon nor Matsui performed in 2009 as they had been expected to when their contracts were agreed upon.
lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins)
December 18th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
no.27
December 18th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
“Johnson has 700 less ab’s than Matsui yet has more whiffs…
—————————
Walks do not count as AB’s so that is extremely misleading”
-Matsui still has less K’s per plate appearance.
———————–
I never said he did not K more, I just said when you say it like that it makes it seem like NJ is a K machine which is extremely misleading as I said
I’d like to know what percentage of Matsui’s outs were weak dribblers to the right side of the infield?
We sure saw a lot of those in that last 2 years.
If Chad takes a poll of this board, CB will get every vote over Crawdaddy.
CB is one of the most respected posters on this blog— calling him out makes you look pretty silly.
CB and craw,
knock it off, good sirs! Don’t make me go all Mo Howard on you two with the eye pokes and the skull clunking.
CC – Carl Crawford, Sorry, Craw!
CB puts thought and intelligence into every argument he makes.
That is more than we can say for about 90% of this blog. Pick a fight with the bridge jumpers, not a respected poster who has proven that he knows what he is talking about.
“That is true Crawdaddy but is there any reason why you have to be so rude?
As for defending him, that was not my purpose, my purpose was to simply say as I did that I appreciate CB and what he has to say. Simple as that.”
Bronx Born,
I admit that my bedside manner on this internet environment isn’t the best and can be taken as being rude, but at least I admit my shortcoming. Furthermore, I really do appreciate CB and what he has to say about baseball. I find him very informative in that regard.
Tom wrote a scathing piece on Cash after that book – that’s when he stopped appearing on YES Hot Stove. I tried boycotting him for awhile, but he’s a very good writer and I do like to read his opinions……so, my boycott didn’t work.
The “word” is wrong on many levels.
Johnny Damon has NEVER told the Yankees he would do a 2/20 deal.
If he did, like last week, he would be a Yankee today.
Instead, he told Scott to tell the Yankees that its 13 million AAV or nothing.
The Yankees, at least to this point, decided its nothing.
The Yankees have been in contact with Boras everyday since the off-season ended.
The nonense that the Yankees haven’t spoken to Damon isn’t accurate. They don’t speak to the player during contract negotiations. They speak to the agent.
Johnny got “reasonable” when the Yankees moved on. Unfortunately, unless something changes, it may be too late.
That’s called, “over-estimating your market”.
I love Johnny. Great guy. Great player.
He’s simply not a 13 million dollar AAV player anymore.
Now, Scott has to scramble to get him what the Yankees were ready, willing and able to pay him 2 weeks ago.
Will be interesting to see where he lands.
Thank you Crawdaddy spoken like a true gentleman. May the Yankees get 28!
“And from all appearances the Yankees could have Holliday for a reasonable price. Yet no movement… ”
I was listening to Cash’s interview with Michael Kay and he made a statement I found interesting, something to the effect of there being value to be had if you’re patient and that involving risk. It’s about impossible to read into what Cash says, but that made me think about the Holliday situation. I believe Cash thinks if they wait out the other parties they can sign Holliday to a very reasonable contract; however, he understands STL or another club can jump in and change the market, causing them to miss out on a player who could make this lineup unbelievably dominant in every way.
Damon bit his nose to spite his face.
“CB and craw,
knock it off, good sirs! Don’t make me go all Mo Howard on you two with the eye pokes and the skull clunking.”
Phil,
You’re right!
Or cut off his nose to spite his face sorry lol
M, I agree…..It’s not like I think Melky is terrible, but I don’t think he’s a starter……and definitely not in LF. I guess we could go with him for now, but honestly – as I said before, I do not think he’s going to improve on his 2009 numbers and I think he could regress. Why? I don’t care that he’s only 25 – he’s just not overly talented. If they don’t want Holliday, then the Yankees had best have a backup plan in case Melky totally washes out. Honestly? They need to have a huge offense to make up for the pitching…….I have more questions about the SP than most. I’m fine with CC and AJ. Andy will put up #4 starter #s most likely. Problem? He’s our #3. Joba is an unknown and so is Hughes. I know the Yanks are looking for pitching, but it’s Sheets or bust. I don’t like anyone else out there.
Blake, SJ-
Stop making so much sense around here. It’s dangerous.
you two should be forced to come here with warning labels like the ones on cigarettes.
only yours should read “Warning: Common sense can be dangerous to your Brain. Listen at your own risk “
David, I once again suggest you review the players boi….Matsui averages in his career over 200 runs ( rbi’s + runs scored ) Nick is around 160…Next point
New Thread…
You can’t compare Matsui and NJ. 2 different types of hitters.
Matsui is a power hitter who hit behind Alex.
NJ hits for average, not power and will hit behind Jeter.
Verducci is a good writer who, “went over to the dark side” when he partnered with Torre on the book.
His portrayal of Cashman, through the eyes of Torre, was completely inaccurate. That pretty much ruined his access to the Yankees.
He’s too close to Torre to offer any impartial views on the club, on or off the field.
“Thank you Crawdaddy spoken like a true gentleman. May the Yankees get 28!”
Bronx Born,
I’m not a gentleman on the internet, but I admit I should have kept my big mouth shut as it’s really not worth it.:)
There is a reason that Torre enlisted Verducci to write his book— he is a damn good writer.
Don’t blame Verducci for that book. He just wrote it on behalf of Torre. It isn’t like he injected his own thoughts into it. Same thing with that piece on A-Rod that Verducci wrote during the season talking about how he had no friends. Torre was the one who gave him quotes and material to write it.
“Verducci is a good writer who, “went over to the dark side” when he partnered with Torre on the book.
His portrayal of Cashman, through the eyes of Torre, was completely inaccurate. That pretty much ruined his access to the Yankees.
He’s too close to Torre to offer any impartial views on the club, on or off the field.”
I agree SJ.
SJ’s 10:04 post is perfect………..
At some point, Holliday is going to sign, so Cash can’t just wait and wait and wait.
You viewpoints are valuable Crawdaddy, no one wants to censor yours or others it is what makes this blog so great, the variety is incredible. But best to not get personal. It does no one any good.
Pat-Matsui batted in a lineup with Jeter, Damon, Tex, A-Rod, Posada. Before that the lineup had Sheffield. Nick played for the Nationals. Don’t you think that had an effect on his rbi totals. They are equal offensive players. The same OPS + over their careers.
“Sabremetrics were invented to counter the baseball purists who say that Nick Swisher sucks because he has a .240 average.”
i thought they were invented so bill james would have a job
the really funny thing about the old school /new school debate is that all of us who played with wooden bats grew up being told a walk was as good as a hit ( right pat m).
i always knew mantle was even more valuable because he walked over 100 times every year.
i think anyone who was smart knew that batting average wasn’t the most important stat.
i can’t ever remember a time that i didn’t value walking.
matter of fact, i walked my first two pro at bats , and tony cloninger, our pitching coach, told me that was the first time that he saw that.
sabermetrics is just another way of looking at the game.
it’s not like the game itself is being reinvented.
it’s not better . it’s not worse. just another way.
Oh hey, a bunch of uninformed folks who think WAR refers to the artist that performs “Low Rider.”
How quaint.
Verducci is a great writer and that was a great book
I hope the Yanks can sign a #2 SP. Burnett is paid like a #2, but with an ERA+ in the last two years of 104 and 106, he’s really a #3. Pettitte is a #3. Given his age, might not be even that good. Hughes and Joba are talented, but they’re unknowns.
The Yanks won 103 games last year with outstanding relief pitching and lots of runs. They were fortunate that Burnett and Pettitte missed no games due to injury. At the moment, our SP staff is weaker than last year. Forget about spending money on Damon or Holliday. We need a superior SP.
There may be some future improvement in performance by Cabrera, but a 1-2 year Damon contract as LF/DH makes more sense to me. We can look to fill the LF hole in 2010 or 2011.
The team is fine with Melky in left. He’s a solid defender and showed a big improvement at the plate last season. He’s also only 24 and I expect him to really break out this year. I’d rather have him in left at 1.4m than give Holliday the rediculous contract he’d demand.