A year later, Joba is walking the walk
Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Dec 19, 2009 
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It was about 14 months ago that an already-disappointing Yankees offseason got uglier when Joba Chamberlain was arrested in Nebraska and charged with driving under the influence. Chamberlain was embarrassed by his actions and, in the aftermath, vowed to try to make a negative into a positive by speaking to parents and children about his mistakes.
I think all of us have heard athletes make similar promises before which means all of us know that someone saying he’ll do something is a far cry from actually following through. Chamberlain, though, did spend time talking to young people this year and never ran from difficult questions about his error in judgment.
With the holidays approaching, Chamberlain is back in Nebraska and it sure sounds like he is making a more positive impact on his hometown community this year. As the story notes, Chamberlain spoke to the kids and then signed a never-ending line of autographs – something that actually isn’t an occupational hazard for him since he’s one of the few players who pitches right-handed, but writes (and does most everything else) left-handed. Chamberlain also handed out gifts, including Yankees lunch boxes and winter hats.
At this point, I’d like to think that no one assumes athletes are perfect; like the rest of us, they aren’t. Athlete or not, though, it’s always nice to hear about someone learning from his past. In 2008, Chamberlain made an immature mistake. In 2009, he’s showing his maturity.
Good to read this.
Hopefully he’s working as hard to be ready to pitch in 2010. Not sure his work ethic was what it needed to be in 2009.
Joba has the potential to be a special pitcher and enjoy everything that goes with it.
I’m feeling excited about Joba’s upcoming season, amped even.
That’s just great.
When I read the title of the post, I expected to be reading about the great offseason conditioning program that Joba was on. I sure hope he is doing both.
Maybe Damon will go the Cardinals and Holliday will go the Yankees. LOL!
Lets just hope Joba isn’t walking the hitters come April.
Oh and as for the article, I was very frustrated with Joba and his inconsistency last season, but I have a feeling he has going to have a bounce back year with those ridiculous Joba Rules behind him. He can be dominant and I think this is the year he embraces that. And if not, Joba to the Pen!
Let’s see if he takes his profession seriously and comes to camp in shape…….and stops shaking off Posada…..and stops being a stubborn goat.
I hope he gets his velo back for Christmas. And I thank him for being so good to kids.
He’s a good-hearted chap.
I still doubt the Yankees are in on Holliday, but if they are, would the whole Damon situation sour his relationship to the Yankees? I guess if they could survive the Alex thing, they can survive this – and objectively speaking, I know that it would not be good business for Boras to tick off the Yanks
Joba’s future is so bright, he’s gotta wear shades.
Good for Joba. That’s great he spent so much time signing autographs.
And as a fellow Midwesterner, I had to smile at this:
“My family is here, my heart is here,” said Chamberlain, a native of Lincoln. “I love being from the Midwest.”
The tendonitis must have been worse than we thought – perhaps the velocity is gone for good. Of course, if he kept himself in better shape, perhaps he wouldn’t have had a problem with velocity.
I know that it would not be good business for Boras to tick off the Yanks.
No, as long as agents act in good faith, teams know that it’s just business, and they don’t take offense to it.
“The tendonitis must have been worse than we thought – perhaps the velocity is gone for good”
Cone says it takes a full season to get your velo back after an injury like that.
Better than walking the perp walk.
I agree with mick in the previous thread: the notion of trading Swisher is predicated on the concept of signing Holliday and then needing salary relief to meet a budget number (or to meet a budget number while also getting Sheets or another arm).
I am not worried about the sign Holliday/trade Swisher scenario unfolding.
Not so sure that Chamberlain made a mistake with the DUI, but, more of an bad error in judgement. Whatever…as long as he’s figured it out, I’d be satisfied with that. Next is finding a year round conditioning program that works for him.
Conditioning is key. Like I said. Eliminate the bad stuff: refined sugar, gluten, dairy, saturated fat, trans fat, Omega 6 fats (any oils found in package, processed foodsl like Potato chips).
Add the good stuff: natural sugar from fruit, complex carbs from veggies and brown rice, Omega 3 fats from fish and seafood (wild caught), essential amino acids from lean meats like grass-fed chicken/turkey (Joba can afford it) and monounsatured fats from nuts, olive oil and avocado.
Basically, all organic Mediterranean diet minus gluten, dairy and Omega 6′s.
Rich, is that true? Thanks for the info…….I’m rooting for Phil and Joba to knock everyone dead in ST
Betsy
I will never lie to you.
It makes no sense to sign Holliday, trade Swisher and replace Swisher with Melky in RF…..you’re not improving the team THAT much by doing so.
Rich – this board’s George Washington.
So far only we only hear about the Cardinals being linked to Holliday. Wonder when Boras will introduce the “mystery team” to drive up the offer. I really don’t think it will be the Yankees.
I’m shocked, shocked…..but Bill Madden is truly right on point:
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....e_col.html
We start with Damon, a terrific guy for whom there will be no sad songs sung here over his self-imposed exile from the team he loved, the Yankees. It wasn’t as if the Yankees deceived him. They told him from the get-go that if he wanted to come back it wasn’t going to be on a three-year contract or anywhere near the $13 million salary he earned on his last contract. To that, Boras told them: Then don’t bother making an offer. So they didn’t. And neither, it seems, did anyone else. And so, not surprisingly, Boras grossly misread the market, and by the time the agent came down on his demands to the Yankees (to two years, $20 million), it was too late. They Bombers had already moved ahead and agreed to terms with Nick Johnson to bat second and still weren’t prepared to offer Damon any more than $14 million-$15 million total. If Boras hadn’t established the parameters of the bidding at the outset, the Yankees conceivably would have started at two years, $14 million and wound up somewhere near Bobby Abreu’s two-year, $19 million market deal for corner outfielders with the Angels
But you know what? Damon has only himself to blame. Here’s a guy who has made $97.2 million in his career and for an extra $6 million he sacrificed happiness and contentment and all the other perks associated with playing for a world champion team in New York. If he really wanted to stay a Yankee, he should’ve told Boras: “Go shop around for a three-year offer, but at the end of the day just make sure I’m still wearing pinstripes.” Instead, he drank the Boras Kool-Aid and came out looking like just another baseball mercenary. Happy trails, Johnny.
Betsy,
I’m with you. I don’t agree with Madden very often but he is right on point.
Betsy – high on pie
December 19th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
I’m shocked, shocked…..but Bill Madden is truly right on point:
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo…..e_col.html
But you know what? Damon has only himself to blame. Here’s a guy who has made $97.2 million in his career and for an extra $6 million he sacrificed happiness and contentment and all the other perks associated with playing for a world champion team in New York. If he really wanted to stay a Yankee, he should’ve told Boras: “Go shop around for a three-year offer, but at the end of the day just make sure I’m still wearing pinstripes.” Instead, he drank the Boras Kool-Aid and came out looking like just another baseball mercenary. Happy trails, Johnny.
*******
Jim Bowden tweeted last night that the Yanks were in on Holliday despite denials. He’s a dummy but he’s about as connected as a person can get in baseball.
I think the Yankees are more likely to be the team that swoops in and signs Holliday than a team that drives up the price.
“Jim Bowden tweeted last night that the Yanks were in on Holliday despite denials.”
This sounds like bad news for those of us wanting Holliday. Now all we need is a Steve Phillips guarantee for it to definitely not happen.
Of course Phillips would be reporting from somewhere in southeast Antarctica.
As to the pitching:
We need another solid pitcher (don’t care what # he is.
The problem is that, IMO, Phil needs to be a starter at this point; I think it’s a terrible idea for him to be relegated to the pen again (which he would be if we get a Sheets). I may just be inclined to go with what we have and, if either of the kids don’t prove up to it, try and get another SP. It’s definitly not ideal as the Sox already have a better rotation, but if Joba does pitch well, Andy does what he does and Phil pitches like a #5, we’ll be in good shape (with the added bonus of knowing that we have two potential tigers in the rotation)
hmmm. ok.
Nice feel good story on Joba….Let’s hope he finds his way to the gym everyday and comes to camp in shape…..His visit to the DL in 08 was precautionary, there was no physcial damamge at all….Tendonitis is treatable with a anti-inflamitory shot….Your back on the field in 2 days max……Had the Yanks been in contention last season, he’d miss one turn…..Cone was carrying out the clubs PR instructions……Those shots are very routine, but they do sting regardless of much lydocaine they shoot you with…..I get spliked in my knee at least twice a year
Maybe the Yanks are swooping now.
For anyone finding themselves in agreement with Madden. Don’t worry – he meets expectations at the end of his column.
While saying that Jack Z in seattle is doing a top notch job in seattle, this is what Madden says about the second best job a GM has done his off season:
“Our choice for runner-up offseason exec of the year (albeit a distant one) is the Chicago White Sox’s Kenny Williams, who upgraded big-time in the leadoff spot last week with his acquisition of left fielder Juan Pierre (in a salary-dump trade on the Dodgers’ part) and, earlier, at third base with his trade for Mark Teahen from the Kansas City Royals. Williams still has work to do with his bullpen, but the White Sox, on paper anyway, have jumped ahead of the Tigers and Twins in the AL Central.”
It’s just amazing – Juan Pierre and Mark Teahen.
How you can you ostensibly spend decades watching the game and think these are good players or those trades were good moves?
Reds trying to move Arron Harang. Trying to dump some salary.
” he’s one of the few players who pitches right-handed, but writes (and does most everything else) left-handed. ”
I’m kind of the same way. I throw left handed but write right handed – although, for example, I also use a knife, scissors left handed, use a mouse right handed, catches right handed. Weird?
“.Let’s hope he finds his way to the gym everyday and comes to camp in shape…..”
I was very much hoping Joba would participate in a structured off season training program like Hughes did last off season.
Joba would have benefited from it a great deal.
There’s no guarantee Sheets or Dur will be anything close to their previous heights…Gaudin and Mitre are what they are. Let’s hope Zach or Ivan matures fast.
From now on when someone mentions a starting pitching option, it would be nice if that starter is clearly better than Joba or Phil and warrants both the financial cost and the demotion of one or the other from the rotation.
joba may have issues with posada. i wonder if cervelli just sits him down and tells him how it is supposed to be. cervelli seems mature beyond his years in baseball and probably can relate better to joba, at least in talking about how he needs to be on the mound when pitching to posada.
the 4:46 comment wasn’t mine. And now I’m off for awhile.
Cervelli did do an amazing job with Joba in 2007 and 2008 when Joba was flashing some of the best stuff in baseball.
The way cervelli handled Joba in that 1-0 gem joba threw against beckett at fenway in 2008 was phenomenal. Don’t know how cervelli did it.
Faux catching controversy already. It’s going to be an interesting season, once again.
The 4:49 comment wasn’t mine. And I’m still here.
Does Phil need to go to that place again? I don’t want him getting any bigger – you could just see how huge he was in ST. He’s already tall – but man, was he broad. What Phil could use in the off-season is a way to work on his secondary pitches as he won’t be able to do that in ST if there is a competition. I’m just so eager to see what he can do……..
The “poor Johnny, got bad advice from Boras” meme might very well be correct. But pleas consider another idea:
Perhaps Johnny, flush from a WS victory, didn’t feel he should have to take a pay cut from the richest team in baseball (ignoring the fact that he had been paid to do a job he hadn’t done for half of his contract). Maybe Boras gave him good advice but he wouldn’t listen until it was too late.
If it is too late, that is.
CB, is Cervelli just a place holder until Montero or Romine is ready? Or can Cervelli really contribute at the ML level as a starter for someone?
Good to hear. We all make mistakes, unfortunately for Joba his mistakes were shown to the world. Good to see he is keeping his head up!
CB, is Cervelli just a place holder until Montero or Romine is ready? Or can Cervelli really contribute at the ML level as a starter for someone?
—————————-
I don’t know about his bat, but when it comes to pitch selection and his defense, he seems to be a nice option for backup.
He could still develop into a better hitter, but I don’t see him turning into the next Jorge
ERica, despite the weather, have a most magnificent birthday.
CB,
Guess that I should have read the whole article before I agreed with Madden.
I really do not know where Damon is going to end up at this point. The Mets and Cards are looking for a LF, but it seems Bay will end up with the Mets and Holliday with the Cards.
The Giants?
Is there anyone else out there for Damon?
As a Yankee’s fan, I loved, loved seeing Joba’s fist pump. I am seriously looking forward to seeing more of that in the coming season.
If Joba is serious about his career, he’ll be among the early arrivals in Tampa to get himself in the pitching shape he never saw in 2009.
He lacked the stamina to exceed 5 innings of work. Maybe he’ll finally learn to be economical with his pitches in 2010 if he’s to be considered a starter.
I love cervelli, mainly because he could be the clone of this scrappy little catcher I played with in college.
I’m glad he’s getting a full time spot this year.
The “poor Johnny, got bad advice from Boras” meme might very well be correct. But pleas consider another idea:
Perhaps Johnny, flush from a WS victory, didn’t feel he should have to take a pay cut from the richest team in baseball (ignoring the fact that he had been paid to do a job he hadn’t done for half of his contract). Maybe Boras gave him good advice but he wouldn’t listen until it was too late.
If it is too late, that is.
—————————–
Well I’m sure Boras was the one feeding him the idea that he had such a big market for him. While Boras is good at getting his players good deals, he’s also screwed a few of them big time. Look at A-Rod a few years ago, when A-Rod decided to do the negotiations himself.
Nick, he did get bad advice from Boras, but it was Johnny’s own fault. As Madden said (and I’ve been saying), he’s the boss – he could have just told Boras to make a deal. I hope Damon doesn’t have any regrets once he signs with a new team because that can’t be a pleasant feeling.
Cervelli will be a nice back up catcher on a decent to good team. He is not a starting catcher unless it’s for a bottom rung team.
I like Cervelli quite a bit for what he is – which is a role player coming off the bench.
The yankees have been the dominant franchise in the sport throughout it’s modern history. One of the key threads running through that dominance is the yankee’s ability to find offensively gifted catchers which gives the team a huge marginal advantage up the middle.
Cervelli does not fit that model. He’s a back up and he’ll be a good bench player but that’s what he is.
Good for Joba. Now, back to the ‘pen in ’10!
I’m starting to get a little worried for Damon. He could end up nowhere. Either nowhere or some place really horrible. Maybe he should have pulled an Alex and talked to the Yankees himself.
I don’t get the swisher trade rumors..what are they going to get for him? Not much…Are the yankees really going to sign Matt Holliday? I don’t see it..I think I like jason bay better myself. He has proven he can play in the american league east..but saying that I would not sign either bay or holliday
How nice would it be if damon turns into last years bobby abreu. has no where to go..comes back to the yankees for a one year deal under 10 million…that would be perfect..
If Damons price tag falls far enough I think the Yankees might sign him. Now if they sign Holliday then of course they won’t but its not like they don’t like him. If it falls to a one year deal for 7 or 8 million them I can see them choosing damons bat over melkys ove in LF. I know that’s a lot of ifs but its theoretically possible I guess.
Damon is in a lot of trouble.
He is simply not going to be very attractive to an NL team due to his defense.
I could see him winding up in Atlanta perhaps – but at this point he very well could wind up with a 1 year deal at 3-5M or so.
Damon may have cost himself a shot at the hall of fame through these negotiations. He’s at around 2600 career hits. He has an outside shot at 3000 which would have placed him in the history books and given him a shot at cooperstown.
But achieving those milestones would have been much, much easier hitting in the yankees line up and in yankee stadium than anywhere else.
To me that is one of the most baffling parts of this. Damon really needed the yankees.
I can seriously see Damon coming back for a cheap one year deal.
Damon has sounded desperate from the beginning. Ever since his post WS speech, he has been lobbying for a big contract. Seriously, he was busy talking about his contributions to the Yankees in his post-game speech – not about the team as a whole. He knows he’s a risky investment as an old OF with banged up legs and as a DH, he’s not a proven slugger. Boras has likely communicated Damon’s situation realistically, giving Damon a clear picture of his limited market. Damon never rejected an offer from the Yankees because the Yankees never made an offer.
the problem with damon and boras is that as a good a hitter as damon is…he MIGHT BE THE WORST defensive outfielder in baseball. he is so bad in the outfield teams, like the yankees, are not going to give him the contract he wants…I agree with cashman..damon is a 7 million dollar a year player..not a 10-11-12 million dollar a year player. He kills the yankees in the outfield..
Is there anyone else out there for Damon?
………………..
The Braves are a possibility. They train in Orlando where he lives and might cave in to a 2-year deal.
It’s reached the point where Scott Boras is running out of options.
“I can seriously see Damon coming back for a cheap one year deal.”
I agree..but with nick johnson, the yankees already have a lefty DH…damon screwed himself…
Boras is a really good agent if the player is a star and the demand is high but his methods don’t usually work well for his lesser clients. He makes these demands and just puts teams off and they pass..it works if teams really want the player but not so well otherwise..
I still believe that Romine ends up as a corner outfielder. Cervelli was also taking infield practice and instruction at third base from Rodriguez. That’s the best way to make a team more well rounded and functional. Have these kids learn at least one other position. NYY, for years had versatile players. They carried three catchers and all of them played 2-4 positions.
Another thing, with N. Johnson as the everyday DH, there’s no way the Yankees pay Johnny Damon to play LF. There’s no need for a risky short term solution in LF when there’s a guaranteed producer available as a long term fix.
Im a true yankee fan and I appauld the Yankees keeping thier cost down and trying to go younger, Don’t blame Damon if he does not come back, he is listening to his agent and at this point Boras is wrong and cost Damon a position with the yankees, If he like the yankees so bad, he should of said no I want to play in NY. The yankees now should trade Melky not swisher for a decent # 4 starter, we do not need Hoilday, Make a deal with the rays for Crawfors maybe melky, joba and a few minors. Now that would be a great thing, dont you think.
If Damon comes crawling back for a one year deal I think it may be worth the risk to put him in LF. If he is absolutely brutal in the OF, the Yankees can absorb the cost for a year and rotate him into the OF and DH. Also, like Nady last year someone could get hurt
Boras cost Damon NOTHING.
The Yankees never made an offer.
No team has made an offer.
The reason?
He’s being viewed as a DH and he has company.
“Boras is a really good agent if the player is a star and the demand is high”
Wouldn’t any agent be “really good” under these conditions?
A lot of Boras’s “best work” has been for middling players that teams mis-evaluated to have significant potential – derek lowe and oliver perez just last year. But there have been so many others e.g. Chan Ho Park, etc.
If Damon comes crawling back
—
Crawling back to what?
There was no official offer made.
The Yankees have options.
CB, All the points that you raisd about Johnny Damon are so sadly true…..However once he ( and his wife ) started to pop off in the press after the Granderson deal, it seemed to me that things were going in the wrong direction for him coming back to The Bronx….Now one has to wonder how damamged is his ego & pride, and how will that translate to the playing field….That’s where Matsui and his rep were smart, Yanks aren’t ready to commit right now, move on while you’re still marketable……
Don, so you want to trade Joba and melky for Crawford when you can sign Holliday as a free agent? No, that’s not a good idea..
“The Yankees never made an offer.”
Sure they did. Damon just didn’t like it.
http://twitter.com/KenDavidoff/statuses/6806669427
Does Johnny end up closer to home in Tampa or Florida? Does either have room for him on an Abreu-like deal?
Bret,
The Yankees offered 2 for 14
Erica
I have noticed that you have not been online for a few hours… probably lurking on the sidelines reading and reading this Blog. Even in PJs.
Everyday – well, most everyday, I look for a few of my fav posters.
Ones with a lot of knowledge and the ability to articulate that knowledge on Yankee subject stuff.
So obviously, you are on my list and even though your employer has curbed your writing time, your enthusiasm still rides high. And, even though Boras Boras has put a wrench into your life, you still sound as positive as ever.
Have a happy happy birthday! With some white on it!
Enjoy this day b/c we enjoy you.
I think another reason Damon was looking for a big pay day might be that Stanford scam he got caught up in. He probably is desperate for $$$ and saw this as his only way to get it.
CB, I just meant that sometimes it seems that he overplays his hand with players like Damon. He’s a great agent, probably the best of all time but he gets a little too big for his britches occasionally I think
The yankees now should trade Melky not swisher for a decent # 4 starter
—————–
Impossible. The value of a decent #4 starter is much higher then the value of a decent centerfielder (melky).
you’d need multiple players, prospects to get it done.
simply put
pitching is more expensive then positions players. especially in this scenario.
Pat,
Johnny didn’t stick long enough as a plus CF to be a true hall of fame talent, but I get the sense from comments he’s made that he thinks himself as a very under rated player and one who is worthy of induction (or at least strong consideration…)
His best shot was to get to 3000 hits – which was feasible. Hitting in the #2 slot for the yanks is arguably the best spot to hit in in baseball. Jeter always on base in front of you. Tex and Alex behind you. On top of that Damon’s swing worked well in the new stadium.
His best shot to win a couple of more rings was with the yanks. A few more shiny fingers would have strengthened his case for induction – or at least impressed voters.
And on top of that being in NY with the media doesn’t hurt.
And he gave up the best shot he had of that legacy for what?
CB December 19th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
“The Yankees never made an offer.”
Sure they did. Damon just didn’t like it.
http://twitter.com/KenDavidoff/statuses/6806669427
—
Favor to Boras. I doubt it’s a real offer. There is no market.
Why Hoilday, The yankees are already looking at 2010 when Crawford is a free agent, so why not trade for his speed and talent now? Ok, Trade Melky for a good quality pitcher and put Gardner in left.
blake,
I agree with you. I think boras has done a very uneven job the past couple of seasons.
What he did for Varitek last year and damon this year is baffling.
It’s not like what he was doing in his heyday.
And for all we know, Davidoff was fed that info. from Boras, not Yankees officials. Yankees officials deny making an offer.
Joba needs to prove he can pitch a full season as a starter and accept Jorge’s pitch selection.
Damon is a mercenary plain and simple with his stupidity at not accepting 2 years 20 million. Didn’t Johnny learn anything from the Abreu case study?
If Damon didn’t want to take 2/$14M, what do we care?
From a Yankee point of view, Granderson and Johnson are better than Damon and Matsui in almost every respect.
Fans knocking Damon because he made a choice which may or may not turn out to be better or worse for the Johnny Damon family is absurd.
And while I was away I see Nick Swisher was a big subject of conversation.
As one of the big Swisher defenders early this season, I can tell you it had nothing to do with whether Nick was over- or under- rated. Early on, many people just refused to appreciate him for what he could do, and insisted on focusing only on what he doesn’t do.
But most everyone came around sooner or later to realize Nick was a valuable contributor. So the strident defense of Nick gradually became less and less necessary.
“I think another reason Damon was looking for a big pay day might be that Stanford scam he got caught up in.”
Should’ve taken Cal and the points.
After one more year of playing 90-95 games on turf, Crawford’s knees are going to start aching and within 3 years, his legs will start giving him the same problems that Damon’s have for the last 3-4 years. Once Crawford’s legs and speed start diminishing, his value will be half of what it is now.
“Favor to Boras. I doubt it’s a real offer. There is no market.”
You’ve just made a largely non-falsifiable proposition so that’s not particularly interesting baseball talk.
And by this line of arguing it’s very easy to say that Boras essentially never makes a mistake – because any rejected offer that turns out to be the best offer could simply be a pithy “favor to boras.”
Finally, that offer was reported not only by Davidoff but also by multiple sources.
cb,
i don’t mean to nitpick, but damon has 2425 hits. he averages about 160/season. he might need 4 more years to get to 3000.
maybe a tam like baltimore or the a’s might be his best bet
http://www.baseball-reference......jo01.shtml
“And for all we know, Davidoff was fed that info. from Boras, not Yankees officials. Yankees officials deny making an offer.”
That would likely have been Heyman if it was leaked from Boras. Boras works mostly with the national guys – not the local guys.
And Kepner and Feinsand had similar information.
It’s not in boras’s interest to leak that the yankees made damon a reasonable market rate offer.
CB:
Do you see any scenario in which another team offers Damon $14 Million over two years? In other words, is there any chance Damon did not make a stupid decision (at least from a financial perspective) by turning down that offer?
I can’t think of a team that would offer that except perhaps the Cardinals should the Yankees sign Holliday.
Hi CB – I’ve had the sutures removed from my wrists and exhausted the counseing allotment from my health insurance. Also, I was prescient enought to be cruising the Mediterranean while the Yankees were cruising The Canyon of Heroes.
Anyway, belated, and grudging, congrats.
Re: Damon and Matsui. I shared with you last year how maddening I found it that the Sox’ old players played “old,”
while the Yankees old players defied the odds (en masse). For that reason, I was hoping that the Yankees would retain Damon and Matsui to see if they could repeat that unlikely scenario. I think Cashman looks at Matsui and Damon the same way Theo looks at Lowell. They’ll worry about the replacement later.
A couple of other thoughts: (1) Damon has some appealing personal characteristics, but he may be one of the dumbest jocks I have ever heard. Boras had to protect him from himself. (2) I think it’s inevitable that the Yankees get Holliday. Right now, it seems as though they simply have to wait for St. Louis’ offer to settle, and step in. It’s almost too easy – no genius or “stealth” required.
I hope you’re enjoying your holiday season.
The supposed 2 years 20 and 2 years 14 are rumored offers.
Not one Yankees official has confirmed those rumors.
They’re rumors.
Do you mean to tell me that Johnny Damon was presented with 2 different multiyear offers from the Yankees and passed on BOTH even while no other team made a better offer or any offer at all?
And why would other teams make an offer to Johnny Damon before Holliday lands somewhere other than NY? If Holliday lands in NY, it could severely lower Damon’s price.
Therefore, no team made an offer to Damon. It is certain.
With no offers from other teams, Damon turned down 2 Yankee offers, neither confirmed by team officials?
Bull.
Finally, that offer was reported not only by Davidoff but also by multiple sources.
—
And confirmed by how many Yankees officials?
Zero.
kd,
Thanks. At 2400 hits Damon’s need to be on the yanks in order to get to 3000 is even more acute.
waveyourhat said:
“If Damon didn’t want to take 2/$14M, what do we care?
From a Yankee point of view, Granderson and Johnson are better than Damon and Matsui in almost every respect.
Fans knocking Damon because he made a choice which may or may not turn out to be better or worse for the Johnny Damon family is absurd”
WE care because Damon is a great player for the Yankees. He was initially offered 2 years @ 20 million. Damon’s ego wouldn’t allow him to take less than 13 million a year. The guy should fire his agent. The Abreu Angels situation should have made that clear. Our loss big time. Granderson has a lot to prove, and Johnson has to prove he can survive a season without breaking a pinky finger. At least we know Damon was clutch and should have been playing for NY>
Dave,
I don’t see it right now. I also do think any NL team will value him differently from how an AL team would due to his defense so even the cardinals won’t go 2/14 IMO.
Mike RI
December 19th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
I can seriously see Damon coming back for a cheap one year deal.
******
I seriously like the way you are thinking
“And confirmed by how many Yankees officials?”
Your right, because after the yankees leak information they routinely “confirm” it in an explicit fashion afterwards.
If you’re going to go the route that this was a secret favor to Boras then you’ve set up a scenario where nothing can be verified.
That’s fine – but that’s what it is. A situation where there’s no other side possible based on the initial assumption.
Frank from Chatham, NJ
December 19th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Erica
I have noticed that you have not been online for a few hours… probably lurking on the sidelines reading and reading this Blog. Even in PJs.
Everyday – well, most everyday, I look for a few of my fav posters.
Ones with a lot of knowledge and the ability to articulate that knowledge on Yankee subject stuff.
So obviously, you are on my list and even though your employer has curbed your writing time, your enthusiasm still rides high. And, even though Boras Boras has put a wrench into your life, you still sound as positive as ever.
Have a happy happy birthday! With some white on it!
Enjoy this day b/c we enjoy you.
********
Awwww.. thank you Frank
.
I am definitely still here. Your guess was right and I am lurking around. I was cuddling on the couch for a while with my blanket and my phones rang, so I decided this would be a good time to check in.
I definitely appreciate your kind words. This is definitely not my most exciting birthday, but its not my fault. And in the grand scheme of things, it could always be a lot worse.
Tammy-
I like Damon a lot. He was a very good player for our team. But, it was time to move on. You have to learn to let go. With Granderson and NJ, we are much younger, and the Yanks get more production and defense for much less money, which can now be re-allocated to other assets which will help the Yanks win in 2010 and beyond.
Bronx Born
December 19th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
ERica, despite the weather, have a most magnificent birthday.
*****
Thanks Bronx Born!!!
CB December 19th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
“And confirmed by how many Yankees officials?”
Your right, because after the yankees leak information they routinely “confirm” it in an explicit fashion afterwards.
If you’re going to go the route that this was a secret favor to Boras then you’ve set up a scenario where nothing can be verified.
That’s fine – but that’s what it is. A situation where there’s no other side possible based on the initial assumption.
—
My mistake. The Yankees ‘Floated’
floated an offer to Johnny Damon according to Davidoff.
That’s concrete enough for you eh?
The question is whether Tex can start hot in May and carry the team just as Arod picks it up.
The only hitch in Damon coming back to the Yanks is that he may have too much pride to return on a 1 year lets say 6 million dollar deal.
Damon’s a LF’er now-and a poor fielding one at that. When he signed his contract with the Yankees he was to play CF.
Now he’s a dimensional player who’s not a power hitter asking for more money than Abreu, Ibanez, Dunn, ect..
“Ok, Trade Melky for a good quality pitcher”
WHAT quality pitcher could you melky..who on earth would give a good pitcher to get melky cabera. I mean we are talking about melky cabera right?? melky?? You are not getting a pitcher of any quality for melky..
And Happy Birthday, Erica.
Hope you’re doing well…
Late to the party but…. Happy Birthday Ms. Erica!
The Granderson trade caused a ripple effect for the LF market. Bay not backing down off 5 years and the Sox jumping quickly at Cameron added to it.
Taking the Yanks and Sox out of Boras’ spin, cuts down on the teeth that the spin has.
The Mets after not getting Lackey or Halladay are primed to be the one dumb owner Boras always looks for but they want in on Bay instead of Holliday or Holliday wants nothing to do with them.
A Yankee/Sox bidding war always worked for Scott but George vs. Lucchino was the key and their voices just aren’t the loudest ones in the organization anymore.
Melky provided quality clutch at bats. Why get rid of him when he isn’t close to his prime? He’s going to have a few very good years. You heard it here first. Hey Pete Abe, did you save the cannoli?
“I like Damon a lot. He was a very good player for our team. But, it was time to move on. You have to learn to let go. With Granderson and NJ, we are much younger, and the Yanks get more production and defense for much less money, which can now ”
I agree, i love damon, but HE IS A JOKE in the outfield. He may be the worst defensive outfielder in baseball. He is no better than a dh..a dh you would have to pay a lot of money. Nick johnson is not as good a hitter as damon..but he is way cheaper and allows the yankees to go do something else..
The Yankees can easily ‘float’ offers without putting anything in writing.
It gives the Yankees another theoretical option to Holliday – their real target.
you guys really think the yanks are going to give a boat load of money to holliday? I don’t see it. I think cashman is getting ready for next year’s free agents..cliff lee, beckett, etc. I don’t think the yankees need holliday…way too much money..also, i like bay better anyway
nice article. and in the pictures, his dad is wearing the 2007 eastern league champs ring that the thunder won! woohoo!
NJ contract should have been based on AB’s. I don’t trust his body. I guess we shall see. Matsui made it through the year, and Andy as well. Great miracles can occur.
Sign Sheets already…And resign Wang to the Lieber type deal
Brian,
Good to hear from you! And happy the health care system treated you so well. Hope the cruise went well. Where in the mediterranean did you go?
Yes, it’s been a very enjoyable few months (i’m sure you can remember from 2007…).
You know – I believe you asked me a few months ago during the season what I thought Cashman would do in 2010.
You expressed the same sentiment you did in your message from today – you couldn’t believe how all of the yankee veterans were performing at such a high level. I think in turn you asked me if I though the team would chance its luck and bring back the squad largely intact for 2010.
I got the sense you were hoping Cashman would tempt fate and go with the veterans again.
I didn’t think they would try it again – too much went right – though I must say I didn’t anticipate this radical a revision. The granderson trade was something that you just couldn’t anticipate during the season. Getting a CF like that in a trade just doesn’t happen often.
Cashman really meant it about getting younger and more athletic. Nearly every move he’s made has been in that direction.
I think that will continue. I do think they will at least have serious discussions with Holliday/ Boras. Don’t know if they’ll sign him. But at the current market price on Holliday he could return a lot of value.
I’m quite honestly very, very surprised to see the sox pass on holliday. I thought he was the perfect fit for you guys – much more so than Bay. High obp, plays good defence, right handed hitter…
Why do you think they did that? I honestly don’t know what to make of that leak that they offered holliday 82M. To me – holliday either is or isnt’ a guy you target.
What are your thoughts on lackey and cameron? I like lackey quite a bit – he’s a much better pitcher than Burnett – but I really do worry about his elbow. I also like cameron but is he going to play LF or CF? If he plays LF some of his value will be drained because of how small LF is in fenway, IMO.
former yankees property scott patterson and kanekoa texeira are lefties that throw righty
Boras sales pitch about Damon being in line with Derek Jeter and such, the only one who bought that bill of goods was Mr. & Mrs. Johnny Damon……..The came the Abreu contract, The Granderson trade, the Cameron contract and finally the Nick Johnson signing…..Meanwhile Johnny Damon is unemployed…..
“Rich – this board’s George Washington.”
Most. Honest. Lawyer. Ever.
Thanks Tom and Pat!!!!!
Snowed in alone but making the best of it!
Why does it matter if the Yankees wrote it, floated it, faxed it, phoned it in, telegraphed it, channeled Boras through ESP, or sent it through Morris Code?
The Yankees let Boras know that they were willing to bring Damon back at 2/14.
Boras let the Yankees know that Damon was not willing to come back at 2/14.
The Yankees moved onto NJ.
That’s it
Pat M
Boras is the Tommy Flanagan of sports agents.
I can’t help but suspect the Yanks knew Johnny wouldn’t accept the 2/14 offer…
Erica
How hard is the snow coming down in Nassau? Really cold in Westchester but nothing but flurries so far.
Damon valued $$$ over anything else and that’s why he’s not a Yankee. I can’t see him coming back – he’ll wait it out, but even if he does crawl back, who’s to say the Yankees won’t have resolved their LF situation? Who’s to say the Yankees would even want him back? Hal might be ticked off at how Damon and Boras blabbed on and on during the last few weeks.
CB, do you think the Yankees can repeat with Melky in LF? For me, he’s just not someone I want to see in LF -he’s a nice emergency starter or 4th OF. The AL East is ridiculously competitive – why give away a spot just because we have other good ballplayers?
“I can’t help but suspect the Yanks knew Johnny wouldn’t accept the 2/14 offer…”
Wave,
I’d agree that the yankees knew it was a low probability of Damon taking the offer.
They clearly had a number in mind and that was all they were going to do.
Which still leaves the question of whether or not they made that low probability offer with a another plan in mind for LF should the offer not be accepted?
Granderson and Johnson may project as better than Matsui and Damon, but that is contingent on Johnson getting enough at bats to generate value.
If Johnson gets hurt the offense looks very different because then they have two spots in the line up that are producing at close to replacement.
And of course there always has to be a concern about Posada and Jeter’s age and Alex’s hip.
Last year when we were discussing the need to get Tex part of why we thought he was critical was that the offense – while projecting to be good had so many risks in it Tex was needed as a source of redundancy – his signing was risk mitigation first and foremost because they projected to be a 96-97 win team even without Tex after signing CC and AJ.
Granderson helps a lot – but the line up still carries a lot of risk and it’s a year older.
Rich in NJ….With Boras, it’s every 5th word has some form of truth to it, but it’s hard to find
The wife and I are both righties, but we write and eat with our left hand as well.
We’re not ambidexterous, just “screwed up”. LOL
Brian Cashman has been quiet. He might be using an alternative means of communication.
http://havenworks.com/language/morse-code/
I still say AJ isn’t as bad as he’s made out to be and he’s going to have a great year…….
“I can’t help but suspect the Yanks knew Johnny wouldn’t accept the 2/14 offer…”
Doe that really matter if that was their ultimate ceiling?
Not quite Abe Lincoln, Rich, but close
CB,
That’s why I think it’s probable that they get Holliday. They have to keep the O going as Po, Jeter and ARod decline (boy, just a week ago the list of decliners included Hit-Deki and Johnny!) and they wait for more Yankee type bats to emerge from the farm. Looks like Montero will be first of the next group, and we just recovered one in Nick Johnson.
don
December 19th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
“…. Ok, Trade Melky for a good quality pitcher and put Gardner in left….”
======================
We see that no one can give a ‘guestimate’ of what Melky Cabrera can bring us back in a trade for pitching….
Can we get someone better than say – Elmer Dessens – from the Mets ???
Does Melky have any worth ?
….or is it the case where certain Yankee fans simply “way overvalue” the guy ???
cb-
I’m getting older so my memory may be playing tricks on me but I think the Ynks needed Tex to get to a 97 win projection last year. My recollection is that the addition of Tex was the only way for the Yanks to get there.
Granderson and Johnson are important acquisitions for the Yanks to get younger. Plus, it could be misleading to project Damon’s and Matsui’s projections based on their 2009 numbers. RLYB’s CAIRO projections certainly like CG and NJ better for 2010.
Finally, as to NJ’s injury history, what can you say? At least, his problems have always been a one-at-a-time thing, nothing chronic. Johnny, on the other hand, isn’t going to get healthier.
pat
December 19th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Erica
How hard is the snow coming down in Nassau? Really cold in Westchester but nothing but flurries so far.
***********
We have at least an inch here and its coming down pretty hard.
They said this storm was coming from the South and it would be worse
George Washington was a surveryor and not a lawyer. Now, Abe was an honest lawyer.
Where did Bowden say the Yanks were in on Holliday? I hope he’s right.
Hi again, CB – Our cruise started and ended in Rome, with stops in Sicily, Naples, several Greek Islands, and Kusadasi (Turkey). I’ve been to that area several times, and it never fails to entertain.
Re: Lackey and Cameron. I think they’ll both contribute, and Lackey gives them the probability of getting lots of consecutive quality starts from the rotation.
Where I really like the signing, though, is the road map it creates for a Adrian Gonzalez trade, i.e. Lackey/Cameron supplants Buccholz/Ellsbury.
I assume Theo realizes that the Sox still won’t hit on the road as they are currently constructed. They’d be in a lot of low-scoring games to be decided by the bullpen, which is shaky. In those instances, I like the home team (with the crowd and last bats).
So the “pitching and defense” mantra had better be a smoke screen, because the starting pitchers won’t be an issue late in the games …. but the Cssey Kochmans will still be getting ABs (not good).
So, I see two events as inevitable …. Gonzalez to the Sox, Holliday to the Yankees. Hoyer knows the Sox players, and would be more comfortable using player evaluations he has been privy to (just like football coaches try to recruit players from their previous teams).
No inside info here …. just common sense.
P.S. Theo may be hoping that St. Louis gets Holliday before trying to finalize a Gonzalez deal …. if he pulls off the trade now, the Ynakees will certainly go for Holliday.
austinmac,
he tweeted it yesterday.
Erica-Happy birthday! May you have a day of thoughts of Muppets and Damon coming back on a one year contract.
Betsy,
Can they win with Melky in LF? Sure.
But just because it’s possible, doesn’t mean that’s the right direction.
The concern with Melky in LF is risk mitigation on an old team. Melky is going to produce worse than an average LF will. That would work if the rest of the team is intact.
But the yankees have a very thin margin because of the age of their best players.
If Posada gets hurt – then they would have Cervelli and Melky in the line up every day.
If Johnson gets hurt – Miranda and Melky.
Now any team that suffers injuries to stars can’t truly compensate for them – you only get by.
That said however – 3 of the 4 best offensive players on the team – and their DH in addition – are at disproportionately higher risk to get hurt due to age and/or injury history.
That’s the bottom line.
People are forgetting what happenned in 2008 – that team projected to be a fantastic offense. And it turned out to be mediocre overall due to injuries and age.
And what makes this risk even worse is the lack of position player depth the organization has in the upper minors. The upper minors are really barren. The system is unlikely be able to make up for injuries this year.
So given that it’s December – and not May – i think the team should explore every possible avenue to put the best team on the field given the resources they have available to do so while still keeping the future in mind.
Brian,
I think Gonzalez to the Sox is inevitable, that’s one of the reasons I hope Holliday to the Yanks is.
If it’s true Damon was offered 7M/year, it was a generous offer for a DH position, in line what Matsui got,and more than Johnson, likely Guerrero will get.
Now Damon has to hope a NL team will offer more to play LF??? Or that NJ doesn’t pass his physical!
XM radio stating that Yankees discussing Derek Lowe with Braves for a bat? I find that rumor to be just that-a rumor!!
The Yankees can compete and make the playoffs with Cabrera in LF, if they stay healthy and add more pitching.
Looks like Bay will have to take the Mets offer, although I doubt he wants to play there, unless he is willing to take a lot less from another team.
Hearing Marlon Byrd might be a target of the Cubs.
austinmac
December 19th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Erica-Happy birthday! May you have a day of thoughts of Muppets and Damon coming back on a one year contract.
********
Basically just like every other day
We won with Melky last year, we can win with him next year.
True, as left fielder, he’ll be giving up some marginal value, but it isn’t a disaster.
I do think the Yanks need a righty OF, like Nady, to spell CG against lefties. I liked the idea of DeRosa briefly, but I think he’ll be too pricey for what he’d bring to the Yanks.
For everybody wanting to wait on Carl Crawford, there is no guarantee he will be there next season.
The Rays are going to try & resign him, & if he does not give them a home town discount they will probably trade him before the trading deadline next season.
Chances are they will not be trading him within the division & if its to the Yankees, they will want double what they would get from anyone else.
If Holliday’s demands are reasonable & he wants to play in NY, thats who we should be going after. Matt is in him prime & is the perfect #5 hitter in this lineup.
He will put up: 30 Hr’s, 100 RBI’s, & hit for a .320 avg. in this lineup next yr.
Holiiday & a healthy Sheets will make the Yanks a stronger team than last yr. & a good bet for a 28th championship.
Ohhhhhhhhhhh Johnny.
—-
Via ESPN Rumor Central:
“David O’Brien of the Atlanta JC said via Twitter that Damon has “made it known for some time he had interest in Braves, but he might have to take about a 50-percent pay cut for it to happen.”
Bill Ladson of MLB.com reported Friday that the Nationals have no interest in Damon because they see him as a defensive liability.”
I think most everyone on the blog would welcome a Matt Holliday signing. If the Yankees and Holliday can get creative on a backloaded deal they might be able to stay under the 200 million threshold, but it might be at the expense of signing a better FA starter, “unless” they trade Swisher’s contract for prospects!!
Now is that a scenario you would be happy with?
Johnny could be meeting with Warren Buffet.
Granderson is going to be given a chance to prove he can’t hit LHP over an extended sample size. CC has said that he hit LHP better when he first came up because he took the ball the other way. Then he became more pull conscious. I think there is reason to be optimistic.
Personally i don’t care who plays Left Field. I for one hope Melky is the man roaming left .
The kid plays hard, is semi clutch , and hes a homegrown Yankee.
I’m not sure about you guys but when the Melk Man comes up to the plate, i feel like .. Awesome !, one of our kids not another mercinary. Not that im complaining about signing free agents. but its just nice to see homegrown talent
By the way.. i hope we sign Sheets
“I’m getting older so my memory may be playing tricks on me but I think the Ynks needed Tex to get to a 97 win projection last year.”
Wave,
This is a bit confusing since the projections depend on whether or not you count the 2-3 win penalty for playing in the AL East.
I was referring to the absolute projection – without the 2-3 win AL East penalty.
So without Tex the yanks were projected to win 97 wins absolute but 95 wins in the AL East.
Signing Tex put them to a 100 win team absolute and 97-98 net in the AL East.
Sharkdaddy, I agree with your post but I just don’t see them going after both Holliday and Sheets. I sure wish they would but I think it will end up being an either or situation. They will monitor Holliday and if he can be had at a price they like then they will sign him but if not they can go after Sheets.
Holliday and Sheets both would make this team scary good barring any injuries
Erica
Happy Birthday
Good column on the plight of MPB Johnny Damon
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/ne.....;type=lgns
Gonzalez might just get traded from the Padres, but I don’t expect it to be Adrian- maybe his brother-Edgar who also is on the Padres!!!
Bret,
Scott Boras told the press that The Yankees made an offer to Damon. I’m not referring to a leak, he directly told them they made an offer and that he made a counter offer 30 minutes later and was turned down. Boras may be a snake, but he can not make an outright false statement about a major league team GM and expect to continue to work in baseball. It was a week ago when The Yankees denied making an offer to Damon. The negotiations were just the last few days.
The ironic part of all of this is that Damon will end up taking less than than The Yankees offered from another team.
It can’t be overlooked that C.C., Burnett, Teixeira, and Swisher have settled in after their 1st year as Yankees. That will go a long way in helping Granderson do the same in 2010.
- Alex will not start the season on the DL unlike last season.
- The bullpen is mostly settled with Robertson and Marte being healthy as a plus.
- Frankie Cervelli gained confidence by spending time in the big leagues and enough to show he belongs.
- Most of the team has a feeling of the new Stadium.
Certain key players are a year older but so is everybody else with any team.
GB7
FE FI FO FUM,Ms. Karloff, That was great. Glad to see you are on the mend
If some of you want, you can pretend Melky is in CF and Granderson is in LF, then you can feel comfortable with the production from both positions…
Wave, I think CB mentioned something las winter that win spread with Texeria going to NY rather than Beantown was a plus 7 for the Yanks……….That’s why it was so very important that they signed Texeria, as it widen the gap between the two clubs
Just would like to point this out yet again.
Melky will do fine in left field.
With the current Yankees line-up we could go into the year with a corpse or some sort of farm animal and we would still have the best line-up in baseball.
Find me someone not named Matt Holliday who is a good, cost effective replacement for Melky in left and is reasonable/available.
M radio stating that Yankees discussing Derek Lowe with Braves for a bat? I find that rumor to be just that-a rumor!!
————————————————–
Could the bat be Melky or Swisher?
This would clear out space for Holliday.
Lowe would be a welcome addition, can’t have too much pitching. Joba and Hughes would have to fight it out or one to pen to make it stronger. Down with that.
Somebody mentioned Lowe. The Yankees have had interest in the past, but decided to go with AJ vs. Lowe last year b/c of age and stuff. I can’t see the Yankees picking up Lowe now, who will be 38, 39 and 40 and owed $15m / per for 3 years after putting up a 4.70 ERA in 2009. He’d be worth a 1 year gamble, not 3.
Lowe sucks and would get crushed in the AL East these days. I didn’t want him before last season and was glad they didn’t get him.
Rich in NJ…..Granderson will need to alter his approach to hitting lefties as he’s feed a steady diet of down & away, and away…He’s all over the inner plate…Long needs to to keep his hands back and go to left when facing tailing away pitches……It’s all about his hands….
Except for that salary, Braves would have to eat alot in any deal for Lowe.
Erica,
Don’t know if you saw it but there is a Muppets Christmas special on tonight at 8 on Channel 4.
“So the “pitching and defense” mantra had better be a smoke screen, because the starting pitchers won’t be an issue late in the games …. but the Cssey Kochmans will still be getting ABs (not good).”
Yeah. I’d agree with that. The whole notion of defense as measured by metrics like UZR having equivalent value to offense is overstated because it doesn’t account enough for uncertainty.
Listenting to Theo this winter he sounds a bit like a he’s writing a blog on sabermetrics.
I find it difficult to believe he doesn’t think the team needs a bat, especially on the road.
That’s why I don’t understand why they didn’t sign Holliday. I really don’t.
Quite honestly – i think the Sox could use two bats – not just one.
I think the sox will have a high probability of trading for Gonzalez but I don’t think it’s inevitable due to Gonzalez’s salary.
First – I don’t think Hoyer is necessarily going to move Gonzalez now. Not in his first year as GM with Gonzalez signed for two more.
And on the whole, part of what makes all of these Gonzalez trade rumors so implausible is that the sox are the only team every tied to him. There’s just no way that’s possible and Hoyer is not going to just make the trade that will define his tenure in SD without turning it into an open auction.
And it’s very difficult to know what will happen under those circumstances.
Texas is changing ownership groups right now for example. Nolan Ryan will be part of the new ownership group – and he wants to win.
He very well could decide that he doesn’t want to wait and see what Justin Smoak turns into.
If the Rangers want Gonzalez they absolutely have the bullets to get him.
The same thing goes for the Rays – their window maybe closing – they could decide they need a bat this year or next and move Pena to DH.
I just don’t see the Sox as the only game in town for Gonzalez.
Same for Holliday to the yanks – I don’t think it’s inevitable at all.
Fran (the original) and OPPC member
December 19th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Erica,
Don’t know if you saw it but there is a Muppets Christmas special on tonight at 8 on Channel 4.
**************
Fran, you just beat me to it! lol
Pat M-
I was very aware last winter how much the Yanks needed Tex to compete with the Sox. My recollection is that with Tex we projected to 97-98 wins, the Sox around 95. That was probably adjusted for the AL East as CB points out above.
If I went back to last year’s posts I could get all the details, but it’s time to eat and trim the tree.
I’ll catch up later.
Per MLBTRADERUMORS
•The Cubs are in need of a centerfielder after the trade of Milton Bradley, but they are not leaning towards any particular candidate, according to Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. According to sources, Marlon Byrd and Scott Podsednik are the strongest options on the open market. However, the duo writes that GM Jim Hendry may also look into striking a deal with the Yankees for Brett Gardner or Melky Cabrera if they become available.
Pat M
Exactly. As CC said, he has been getting Granderson out by throwing him breaking pitches away and throwing cutters inside just to keep him honest.
So he needs stay back and take offspeed pitches thrown low and away to the opposite field.
Erica,
I was remiss in not saying this before – but Happy Birthday! Tough weather all around but I hope you can celebrate later.
Also, sorry about the pretend boyfriend.
Strange situation.
Adrian Gonzalez is not some expensive talent that the Padres cannot afford to keep.
He is someone that basically any team in baseball can afford over the next 2 years. If the Padres make him available, there are several teams that can put together a better package then the Red Sox.
“My recollection is that with Tex we projected to 97-98 wins, the Sox around 95. That was probably adjusted for the AL East as CB points out above.”
This is correct (or at least as how I remember it also… fairly sure that was it)
haha disregard my last post as CB just basically said the same exact thing
Blake: I agree, getting both Holliday & Sheets is a long shot (especially Holliday).
Alot will depend on how much guarantee $ Sheets is looking for. If he accepts $5-6 with incentives like Andy did last yr. then we still have a shot.
The only bigs contracts coming off next yr. will be Andy’s & they will probably want to use that for someone like Lee.
So its either spend it now & improve your chances to continue winning or wait til next season & hope we have enough offense this yr. (Which we should, but its always nice to have more).
Anyhow, loved to get them both now & keep them healthy.
The ball is no longer in the court of Boras. Damon has the ball. He can tell Boras that enough is enough and remain a Yankee under the latest terms of Cashman or become known as a former Yankee.
the Gonzalez to the Sox trade is already being dramatized for the citizens of San Diego. Apparently, the Sox are reluctant to include Bucholz and Ellsbury in the deal, so it may not happen. Eventually, Hoyer will become a hero when his brilliant poker playing gets the Sox to include Bucholz and Ellsbury in the deal! Even thought the Sox have already set themselves up to do just that.
e ball is no longer in the court of Boras. Damon has the ball. He can tell Boras that enough is enough and remain a Yankee under the latest terms of Cashman or become known as a former Yankee.
————————————————-
Sounds good but the Yanks don’t want Damon. Never did. They have their eyes on a bigger prize.
Ellsbury may be one of the most overrated players in MLB. His defense is significantly below average, and his offense is league average at best. Most of his value comes from his SB. I still think both Gardner and Melky have a chance to be better players.
They are buying time with Johnny, talking with Holliday, and may the best deal win. Seems so obvious.
If the Yankees are still seriously considering bringing Damon back, they are wasting time, not buying it.
“the Gonzalez to the Sox trade is already being dramatized for the citizens of San Diego. ”
This trade is going to be the make or break moment in Hoyer’s career.
He’s already watched Depodesta flounder in LA.
He fails in San Diego he might not get another shot as a GM.
I can’t see him not taking the best package possible. If he has some love affair with the prospects he knows he might make a bad deal – at the same time he knows the warts as well.
The Sox can set up whatever narrative they want – Hoyer will be well aware of how that works.
Whether or not the Sox can get Gonzalez is going to be contingent on how Buchholz, Kelly and Westmoreland perform this year.
I don’t see Gonzalez getting traded before mid season and even then i think it’s more likely next winter.
Poor Joba. Yankee management has taken a potentially great reliever and dicked him around to the point where he can’t do anything anymore. Any big league player you talked to said that Joba was so awesome in the pen that it was crazy to move him out of there. So, of course, Yankee management did just that.
Wave I know you were on the getting Texeria as well…..I was just responding to your question …..I thought it was determined to be a 7 win swing between the Yanks -BoSox…It came real close
Sheets earned about $12m in 2008 when he actually pitched!! In this market, he is not going to get $12m for 2010 when he did NOT pitch in 2009. My guess is his market value is about $5-6m + incentives, which can bring him to $12m.
Phil
December 19th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
the Gonzalez to the Sox trade is already being dramatized for the citizens of San Diego. Apparently, the Sox are reluctant to include Bucholz and Ellsbury in the deal, so it may not happen. Eventually, Hoyer will become a hero when his brilliant poker playing gets the Sox to include Bucholz and Ellsbury in the deal! Even thought the Sox have already set themselves up to do just that.
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Trading with the RS will be more difficult for Hoyer than with other teams. He will probably have to get a larger return from the RS than from other teams or his GM position may not last long.
Rich in NJ.. Rumor has it the Cubbies need a cf. If we can get Damon on the cheap it could open the door for a Melky or Gardner trade Chicago
ich in NJ December 19th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
If the Yankees are still seriously considering bringing Damon back, they are wasting time, not buying it.
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If Holliday falls thru, Johnny will come crawling back.
Glad to hear this. Joba is still developing as a pitcher and a person – I’d hate for public perception of me to be rooted in what I was doing in my early 20s – and I think he’s going to put it all together this year now that he’s free of the innings-limits and the Joba Rules. Support Joba!
Pat M,
Last winter the net swing for Tex going to the yanks was 7-8 wins. Made the sox around 4 games worse than they would have been with him and the yanks around 4 games better than they would have been without him.
CB,
I think the fix is in on AGone to Boston.
“If Holliday falls thru, Johnny will come crawling back.”
That’s all his gimpy calf would allow anyway.
CB and Let’s Go …..
My gut tells me that the Sox will beat anyone else’s package for Gonzalez (i.e. “overpay”); they have enough quality/quantity to do that.
He’s interesting because he’s low cost for two years, and then will become a big-time FA. San Diego is going nowhere in the next two years. That limits the suitors to the usual suspects – contenders who want a rental, and/or wealthy contenders who think they can do a long-term signing.
And anyone with a marquee first baseman is out (NY, Detroit, St. Louis, LAA). After losing Teixeira, Boston needs to do this to re-tilt the balance in the AL East ….. and it’s doable.
P.S. Re: Holliday – I’m not sure that the Sox are that high on him. In spite of all of the UZR proponents who are convinced that JBay is a butcher and Holliday is a good (more or less) fielder, I don’t see it. During the 2007 World Series, Holliday (6’4′, 230 lbs.) looked stiff and unathletic in the field – like a linebacker trying to play corner. I don’t see any difference (defensively) between him and JBay.
CB, having said what you just said about Teixera what do you think would be the win differential if the Yankees sign Holliday and the Sox don’t get a quality bat?
Also what is your gut feeling about Holliday? From reading your posts I think we pretty much agree on what the Yankees are doing but I was just wondering what you thought the odds of them signing him are?
Fran (the original) and OPPC member
December 19th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Erica,
Don’t know if you saw it but there is a Muppets Christmas special on tonight at 8 on Channel 4.
******
Thanks! Duly noted
Did my required reading here today.
Some of the same debates persist.
Damon’s chances of a return. Slim to none. I am not convinced the Yankees ever wanted him back. He was low-balled(in his eyes), and though the Yanks night have wanted him back on a steal of a deal.The more likely interpretation of their offer to damon was that they thought it was very unlikely he would accept their offer, and that by refusing their offer the Yankees would be in the clear to persue other targets.Partially a public relations ploy.
Having Damon and holliday represented by the same agent for the same position on the same team is a very tricky thing to deal with IMO.
Thought Boras may have been able to handle that maybe it presented problems for the Yankees. especially if they preferred Holliday over damon.
With damon out of the picture after rejecting the Yanks offer
they moved onto holliday w/o hurting Johnny’s feelings, or loosing in the court of public opinion on such a poular player. They maintain they’re “good guys” image that way, and they send a message to Boras that they will not be fleeced in their negotiations.
For the present Holliday is in play with the “message” having been sent to Boras via Damon.
They now appear to be playing a game of “negotiating chicken”
where the object for the Yanks is get Boras to capitulate, and to agree to a deal on terms more to the Yankees liking.
One of them either must back down, or no deal can be consummated.
The Yankees weapon is their financial leverage in weak market, Holliday’s weapon is that the Yankees probably would love to have him.
Something has to come along to break this negotiating logjam.
The Yankees have options and Holliday has options.
Who is gonna blink first ?
Well. Who stands to loose the most by the deal failing the Yanks, or Holliday? To me that is the Fulcrum which decides the deal’s outcome.
i do not think Holliday is going to the Cards. He wants to be a Yankee all else equal. And I think it can be made so easily.
The yankees can use Melky. Are they willing to risk doing that by loosing Holliday ?
These are difficult questions to know the answer to.
Does Holliday blink first, or do the Yankees, or do they both just move on.
Most people here think that Holliday will blink first and that may be the case.
But the Yankees have something to loose also. They might be forced to use Melky instead of Holliday. Quite a difference.
Do they want to risk doing that ?
The outcome is difficult if not impossible to predict.
If you believe Holliday needs the Yankees more than the Yanks need him then he gives in.
If you believe the Yanks really do not want to go with Melky, and greatly prefer Holliday then maybe they give in first.
The Budget issue is not a significant factor here IMO.
The yankees can afford holliday especially if the deal is structured right.
Very big apologies for the length of this post.
Hope it makes sense.
Mike RI
I think we can afford to trade Gardner without Damon.
mick
The Yankees should only have interest if it was for one year.
# Rich in NJ December 19th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Ellsbury may be one of the most overrated players in MLB. His defense is significantly below average, and his offense is league average at best. Most of his value comes from his SB. I still think both Gardner and Melky have a chance to be better players.
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The thing with Ellsbury is he makes routine plays look exciting and difficult, and gets overvalued because of that. He isn’t a good fielder, takes poor routes that leads to him having to make dives for the ball.
With the Padres, trading for a big package from the Red Sox might be OK, but if he doesn’t get extra value from them it could be seen poorly by the club knowing that he came from there. He would be better off trading with another club for their star player.
Damon’s chances of a return. Slim to none. I am not convinced the Yankees ever wanted him back. He was low-balled(in his eyes), and though the Yanks night have wanted him back on a steal of a deal.The more likely interpretation of their offer to damon was that they thought it was very unlikely he would accept their offer, and that by refusing their offer the Yankees would be in the clear to persue other targets.Partially a public relations ploy.
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MTU,
Sounds like what they did to Torre, doesn’t it?
Phil,
Come on! Hoyer has to protect his own self-interest. And I think MaineYankee makes a good point – the scrutiny on Hoyer making a trade to the sox will be intense.
Sox protege’s who have gone on to management elsewhere have very mixed records.
And the problem with your first GM job being in SD is that it easily could turn into your last.
And this isn’t only a matter of Hoyer – it’s also Jason McCloud’s neck on the line.
McCloud was the guy who drafted all the red sox prospects in question – he knows all of them.
If he whiffs on a Gonzalez trade based on the prospects he knows it will make him look very bad.
Holliday is at about 5-6 WAR. Melky is at about 1-2 WAR. So if he signs with the Yankees he’s about 3-4 win upgrade.
Mick,
Yes.
I think once Halladay landed in Philly, they decided they wanted Holliday more than Damon.
“Holliday is at about 5-6 WAR. Melky is at about 1-2 WAR. So if he signs with the Yankees he’s about 3-4 win upgrade.”
3 or 4 wins could be the difference in the division.
you say halladay, i say holliday
CB, seems we are in complete agreement about that. Unless the RS overpay big and that means closer to MLB ready players, Hoyer could end his career if there is no great return for a very popular player.
It would be tough for any trade, but going to the RS puts a lot of added need for return upgrades.
it seems like such a no brainer…we need a LF….someone to bat 5th and protect arod….he’s from OK and his daddy loves the Yanks….sounds a little like giambi…oops
I just don’t see the “Gonzalez to Red Sox is inevitable” nonsense.
Why is it preordained to be BOS? There are certainly other teams (e.g. – TEX) that can offer a better package.
Why now? He is cost controlled, under contract for 2 more years & is the face of the franchise. You’re talking this time next year at the earliest before SD would entertain any serious offers, and that’s assuming he’s priced out of their range (who knows).
Jed Hoyer “knows the RS system”. Great. Why in God’s green Earth would he make a trade with his old team when he could get superior offers elsewhere. Kelly? Westmoreland? Why would SD accept A ball prospects? Hoyer would be roasted alive, & rightfully so, never getting a GM job again.
Wishful thinking by the NESPN crowd.
Mick-
dealing with aging players values and contacts may be a generic porblem for any team especially a team like the yanks that prides itself on treating their stars right.
The bernie situation had some of those aspects.
Will their be valuation problems upcoming with other Yankee stars and their contracts ?
Finding a good balance there will require great skill.
“contracts” not “contacts”
No doubt, blake.
“having said what you just said about Teixera what do you think would be the win differential if the Yankees sign Holliday and the Sox don’t get a quality bat?”
Holliday is conservatively around a 4 win player. Melky looks to be around replacement as a LF. So if the Socks don’t add a bat and the yanks add Holliday the yanks pick up 4 wins on the sox – could be +5-6 wins if Holliday plays particularly well.
That’s the context neutral impact. In context I think Holliday would have a bigger impact due to the fact that he is going to give the yankees the option of putting a hitter with plus bat control skills and strike zone command behind Tex and Alex who are on base all of the time.
I think the yanks chances of signing him are pretty good – 20-30%.
new thread.
Brian (Red Sox Fan)
December 19th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
CB and Let’s Go …..
My gut tells me that the Sox will beat anyone else’s package for Gonzalez (i.e. “overpay”); they have enough quality/quantity to do that.
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Do they really have enough quality to do that?
Who would the package center around? Bucholz and Ellsbury? That offer can surely be beat by several teams in baseball. So, lets say you add in Kelly or Westmoreland. Is Hoyer really going to view those guys as adding significant value to the trade when they have yet to prove anything in the higher levels of the minors?
I do not think the Red Sox have enough quality to beat what other team’s are willing to offer unless they center the deal around Lester.
mtu
I just don’t get the complicating nature of this deal. In the past, money was not an object. It just seems the general public is buying into this “budget” issue which Hal correctly played. I think something can be worked out for Holliday, he appears to be in the Yankee mold along with Granderson.
Betsy at her worst. She is so afraid that Joba will overshadow her baby Phil. Hon, he already has. Live with it.
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Let’s see if he 1) takes his profession seriously and 2)comes to camp in shape…….3)and stops shaking off Posada…..4)and stops being a stubborn goat.
Betsy, do you know the above four facts are provable or are you parroting something that another “expert” has stated so many times on this board. It sounds just like that expert but I know you added the goat. You can be so mean and rude about players you don’t like. Re-read your posts some time.
I know for a fact that you are getting a coal in your stocking, if I have to deliver it my self. GRINCH.
lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins)
December 19th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Adrian Gonzalez is not some expensive talent that the Padres cannot afford to keep.
He is someone that basically any team in baseball can afford over the next 2 years. If the Padres make him available, there are several teams that can put together a better package then the Red Sox.
Like Jackie Z and the M’s?