Dollars and sense
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- December
- 19
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An interesting note from Buster Olney regarding Johnny Damon’s negotiations with the Yankees.
“Part of the concern in some corners of the Yankees’ organization,” Olney wrote, “was that in light of Damon’s initial insistence on not taking a pay cut, he might have gone into the 2010 season very unhappy if he had surrendered to a deal on the Yankees’ terms.”
Indications are that Damon asked for two years, $26 million. The Yankees offered two years, $14 million. Then Damon came back with two-years, $20 million (or $22 million, depending on the version of the story). By then, the Nick Johnson deal was done.
It’s interesting that Olney notes concern about Damon’s happiness about a pay cut, because it’s something Brian Cashman has talked about in the past. Cashman has said he doesn’t believe Bobby Abreu would have come back to the Yankees for the same contract that eventually brought him to the Angels last winter. There is hesitance, Cashman said, for a player to accept a pay cut under any circumstances, and that hesitances grows when it involves coming back to his old team. It’s simply hard for the player to believe that his team believes his value has dipped. It might be especially true when that team has the highest payroll in baseball.
Assumption seems to be that Hideki Matsui would have come back to the Yankees for the same deal he signed with the Angels — count me in that group – but maybe that’s not the case. And maybe Damon’s offer of a diminished contract was made grudgingly. Not sure there’s any way to quantify those sort of personality intangibles, but it’s worth considering.
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Sam Borden
Matsui was the knees, Damon was the paycut.
repost:
Did my required reading here today.
Some of the same debates persist.
Damon’s chances of a return. Slim to none. I am not convinced the Yankees ever wanted him back. He was low-balled(in his eyes), and though the Yanks night have wanted him back on a steal of a deal.The more likely interpretation of their offer to damon was that they thought it was very unlikely he would accept their offer, and that by refusing their offer the Yankees would be in the clear to persue other targets.Partially a public relations ploy.
Having Damon and holliday represented by the same agent for the same position on the same team is a very tricky thing to deal with IMO.
Thought Boras may have been able to handle that maybe it presented problems for the Yankees. especially if they preferred Holliday over damon.
With damon out of the picture after rejecting the Yanks offer
they moved onto holliday w/o hurting Johnny’s feelings, or loosing in the court of public opinion on such a poular player. They maintain they’re “good guys” image that way, and they send a message to Boras that they will not be fleeced in their negotiations.
For the present Holliday is in play with the “message” having been sent to Boras via Damon.
They now appear to be playing a game of “negotiating chicken”
where the object for the Yanks is get Boras to capitulate, and to agree to a deal on terms more to the Yankees liking.
One of them either must back down, or no deal can be consummated.
The Yankees weapon is their financial leverage in weak market, Holliday’s weapon is that the Yankees probably would love to have him.
Something has to come along to break this negotiating logjam.
The Yankees have options and Holliday has options.
Who is gonna blink first ?
Well. Who stands to loose the most by the deal failing the Yanks, or Holliday? To me that is the Fulcrum which decides the deal’s outcome.
i do not think Holliday is going to the Cards. He wants to be a Yankee all else equal. And I think it can be made so easily.
The yankees can use Melky. Are they willing to risk doing that by loosing Holliday ?
These are difficult questions to know the answer to.
Does Holliday blink first, or do the Yankees, or do they both just move on.
Most people here think that Holliday will blink first and that may be the case.
But the Yankees have something to loose also. They might be forced to use Melky instead of Holliday. Quite a difference.
Do they want to risk doing that ?
The outcome is difficult if not impossible to predict.
If you believe Holliday needs the Yankees more than the Yanks need him then he gives in.
If you believe the Yanks really do not want to go with Melky, and greatly prefer Holliday then maybe they give in first.
The Budget issue is not a significant factor here IMO.
The yankees can afford holliday especially if the deal is structured right.
Very big apologies for the length of this post.
Hope it makes sense.
(repost):
“having said what you just said about Teixera what do you think would be the win differential if the Yankees sign Holliday and the Sox don’t get a quality bat?”
Holliday is conservatively around a 4 win player. Melky looks to be around replacement as a LF. So if the Socks don’t add a bat and the yanks add Holliday the yanks pick up 4 wins on the sox – could be +5-6 wins if Holliday plays particularly well.
That’s the context neutral impact. In context I think Holliday would have a bigger impact due to the fact that he is going to give the yankees the option of putting a hitter with plus bat control skills and strike zone command behind Tex and Alex who are on base all of the time.
I think the yanks chances of signing him are pretty good – 20-30%.
when a player has $cotty B for an agent…….’nuff said
Francessa rumor of Damon bad investments that he “needs” this contract..
Boy I wish I had millions to be sad about losing..
Chad
LA offered Matsui a chance to play LF, something the Yanks could not.
Cashman let Abreu walk last year because of money and traded for the cheaper, younger Nick Swisher. That worked out okay for the Yankees. Cash is letting a couple of more players leave because of age and money this year and replacing them with cheaper, younger guys. Let’s hope it works again this year.
I think with Matsui, it was the timing and the Yankees not ready to move from Damon filling the same role. Matsui is a different type of person who can probably recognize that his skills have diminished, even though he thinks he could still field. I base this thought on his apology for getting hurt.
The Angels made a quick move and it was timed perfectly for Matsui to feel that he could be left out in the cold that decided things.
Damon had made mention of the Yankees fiscal might. I don’t think his demands were realistic given his fielding decline, therefore his role in the team becoming reduced. We all tend to expect pay raises, but with sports pay decreases over time due to declining skills. This is contrary to how we think.
Damon and Boras had put up a good front but missed on the value that the Yankees had set for his services. His dithering about the contract cost the Yankees the chance to negotiate with Matsui, so there was a double cost involved from Damon’s stance.
The only thing that would have put the Yankees at ease about the paycut is if Damon communicated that he was OK with it. Instead, he did the opposite, communicating that he wanted at least $13m per.
My guess is if he ends up signing for $7m elsewhere, he will end up having seller’s remorse.
Poll question:
Who/what breaks the negotiating stalemate between the Yankees and Boras regarding Holliday ?
A) Boras(Holliday) blink first
B) The Yankees
C) Neither. They both are forced to move on.
D) There is no deal in play
E) Holliday sign with the Cards
F) There is no deal to negotiate over.
Please state WHY you think the way you do.
Sorry,
Strike out choice F. it is redundant.
G) I have no clue.
Chad
What are your thoughts on the Yankees offering Damon an offer he had to refuse, ala Joe Torre, while they pursue their first choice Matt Holliday?
In the meantime, if Holliday falls through, Johnny will still be there at a lower price.
Sorry MTU, I think the answer is D. Everything I’ve read states that the Yankees like Holliday, but don’t LOVE Holliday. And Cashman has insisted he’s sticking to a budget. Of course, Cashman could be laying in the weeds like he did last year on Tex. So I guess my answer is D, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the Yankees swept in and signed him. I just don’t feel confident about it.
I don’t understand why Torre had to refuse a contract that would have paid him one-third more than the next highest paid manager.
H)What stalemate, when the moment’s right, they’ll swoop.
mick December 19th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
Repost
mtu
I just don’t get the complicating nature of this deal. In the past, money was not an object. It just seems the general public is buying into this “budget” issue which Hal correctly played. I think something can be worked out for Holliday, he appears to be in the Yankee mold along with Granderson.
==========================================================
Rich-
I already knew that ! (lol)
The Dodger tampered with Torre.
Phil-
Isn’t it possible that that moment never arrives, and they are both forced to move on.
Or do you think this can go on indefinitely ?
Rich in NJ December 19th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
I don’t understand why Torre had to refuse a contract that would have paid him one-third more than the next highest paid manager
===========================================================
He wanted the security of a 2nd year. Did not want to be a lame duck mgr.
Lowe could happen. Yanks are concerned about the health implications for CC and AJ if they have to carry too much of a load. To preserve that huge investment, they really want to add a reliable innings eater and there just isn’t that much out there.
MTU,
they could be swooping right now. They just “broke up” with Damon on Thursday. Give them a minute, here. We don’t have a game for awhile.
CB
I believe Hoyer was the acting GM for the RS when Theo walked away for a few months. That was when the trade was made with the Marlins.
From what I’ve heard some don’t think Theo would have made that trade. Probably Luccino was really the driving force in that trade.
Mick-
What’s your choice ? Who is going to blink first, or neither ?
mtu
It is still early in the game, you seem impatient.
Maybe by X-mas or New Years something might be done.
Maybe Cashman and Boras have been waiting for Senator Ben Nelson to breal the stalemate.
A deal could now be imminent.
Lowe could happen. Yanks are concerned about the health implications for CC and AJ if they have to carry too much of a load. To preserve that huge investment, they really want to add a reliable innings eater and there just isn’t that much out there.
========================================================
But what about the “budget?” 15m is owed lowe next year
I tend to think it will happen this week. Yanks are tough around the Hollidays. Lots of stuff has happened around Thanksgiving, around Christmas, heck, we got ARod on Valentine’s Day. We are tough at Holliday time!
Lowe could only happen if his contract didn’t have so many years and money left on it. With the way he fell off in the second half, I don’t see the Yankees taking that risk.
ba da boom nick, the henny youngman of bloggers
Phil-
I would guesstimate that they have literally had hundreds of minutes already.
Something has to change form one of the sides at some point for a deal to be consummated.
More time wont necessarily help matters. It may actually cause the deal to become less likely.
Dont get me wrong. it’s fine with me either way. It aint MY
money.
I am just curious about people’s opinions and their reasons for them.
Comprendo ?
I tend to think it will happen this week. Yanks are tough around the Hollidays.
============================================================
Exactly, Phil. They have an arrangement with the NY Post and Daily News for the headline:
Happy Hollidays!
Nick-
That wasn’t a choice ? Play be the rules or die !
Believe that if Damon had told Boras to make it work with the Yanks from the outset, Veritek did that with Boston (told Boras he wanted to stay) – a deal would have been done – the player should drive the agent not the other way around
Catfish on New Years.
And CC only went 239 while AJ went 207 last season. That isn’t being overworked or overloaded. The main concern is finding a #4 who they can get close to 200 innings out of.
MTU,
This feels like your first rodeo.
mick
“He wanted the security of a 2nd year. Did not want to be a lame duck mgr.”
He also said that he was offended by incentives in the contract even though he had incentives in prior contracts. The Yankees increased his net worth by about $30m. How much security does any person need?
MTU, the thing is that while we fans can see the sense that signing Holliday makes for the Yankees, we don’t really know anything of Cashman’s plans for this season and the next season.
Holliday looks almost perfectly placed in the role he plays and the opening that is in the Yankees roster. All except for the payroll issue.
I do think that the Yankees have at least some interest in Holliday. Adding a third power hitter to the already powerful lineup helps negate some of the pitching they would be facing. With the circular lineup they already have, starting pitching will have a hard time staying late in a lot of games. Holliday adds to that quite a bit because of his power hitting.
While pitching “wins in the post season”, you also have to have the offense. Its why the Phillies won their WS and its in part why the Yankees prevailed over them this year.
With the economy we are in right now, and despite the hope that is out there that it will turn soon, that isn’t likely, though this isn’t the forum to discuss those aspects. The Yankees could hold back from further investing in their team, or they could push a little more because winning championships bring in more fans. The RS got a lot of bandwagon fans that are still helping finance their club. The Yankees get their share as well.
Overall, it seems like Boras, already smarting from what transpired with Damon, might be the party to blink first. It seems that the market for Holliday is pretty much set unless a team comes in and really pushes it.
I think it will get settled before the Holidays. Players don’t like the uncertainty any more than we fans do.
Varitek’s situation was different. There was no way Boras could tell people he was in high demand without being laughed at and hung up on.
Rich
Do you think Levine is behind the scenes on this deal too?
MaineYankee,
I do believe Hoyer was part of the multi-headed GM the Sox had when Theo disappeared in the gorilla suit.
However, I think the architect for the Beckett-Ramirez trade was Bill Lajoie. Hoyer was a relatively junior person at that time and I don’t think he was the driver.
It’s hard to know what to make of the whole idea of Theo not wanting to do the Beckett trade. It seems to me the perfect narrative for the Theo and the sox to have their cake and eat it to.
With that narrative the Sox can always say flags fly forever so Beckett was worth it, while still protecting the “genius” label their organization cherishes by throwing Lajoie under the bus (or the non-Theo’s…) for trading away a player who is not only great – but historically great.
The Derek Lowe that is owed:
10:$15M, 11:$15M, 12:$15M
?
Not happening.
Take my leftfielder — please!
mick
The Torre deal, he had a role. The Damon deal, no. Damon just isn’t worth what he thinks he is in this market at his age.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....ees-121709
I agree with Rosenthal here… (but the big IF part would Damon sucking it up and taking a 2 year $14 mil contract…)
They should have never made that offer to Torre in the first place.
Nick,
Think of the new anarchy in young master hughes’s life.
Sinsei Damon has exited.
Who will teach the children?
Phil-
it’s odd that you would say that since i live in the west where the sky’s are not cloudy all day.
But as far as my opinion on negotiations. If it were me I would rather be boiled in oil, or maybe have my nails pulled off one at a time instead.
If you like this sort of thing more power to you. I would imagine lawyers live for this, or should I have said makea living off of this.
It’s all good. I can wait for a Xmas present but id o not like to see people pissing up a rope so to speak.
Capiche ?
I would think that the length of the contract could be something that might make the Yankees hesitate to sign Holliday. They have quite a few now which could limit them in the future.
I think Levine and Trost are still busy writing “I will not overprice the VIP seats again” 27 MILLION times before next season starts.
Nick Johnson’s injury history:
sprained right wrist (2000), bruised left wrist (2002), broken right hand (2003), strained back (2004), broken cheekbone (2004), bruised right heel (2005), broken right leg (all of 2007), right wrist surgery (2008) and strained right hamstring (2009)
Nick in SF December 19th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Take my leftfielder — please!
===================================================
ba da boom!
mick
December 19th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
Chad
LA offered Matsui a chance to play LF, something the Yanks could not.
=============================
The chance to play outfield appeared to be the key factor in Matsui to LAA.
NYY wanted him as a DH only.
The Damon offer was not a “message” to Boris. Or a PR move to save face. Where do you guys get this? They made an offer, didn’t see promise, so found an alternative (nick johnson). Now they have some flexibility next year. No chance they want Holliday. If there really was a negotiations “stalemate” I’m sure one of the many sports journalists out there would’ve reported on it. The only reason the Tex signing was a surprise was because they moved so fast. I’m no Melky booster, but geez, would it be so bad to have him batting NINTH? You people ask for too much. Ill take one 3/4 starter, then bring on spring training.
The crutch is gone, Young Master Philip. I hope you can walk on your own.
I agree with Rosenthal here… (but the big IF part would Damon sucking it up and taking a 2 year $14 mil contract…)
=========================================================
If No Holliday, Johnny would be lucky to get that.
Part of the reason the wait is good for Cash.
The longer he waits, the worse the offer.
They made an offer, didn’t see promise, so found an alternative (nick johnson). Now they have some flexibility nex
===================================================
They would have signed NJ either way.
We have a new #2 hitter who’s better at getting on base. The Yanks have reservations about how Damon would act on a lighter contract. He’s as gone as Matsui. He just doesn’t have a new team yet. Johnny’s not coming back, no matter what does or doesn’t happen with Holliday or Left Field.
Sinsei Damon will pass the torch to Sinsei Swish.
In a new vein I am posting the folowing sign:
All opinions on Holliday are welcome w/o respect to their intelligence or lack thereof.
signed,
The Management
P.S. Chops will not be broken whatever your opinion might be.
This same principle will be at work when it comes to re-signing Jeter and Mo next year. Jeter will likely not be much of a shortstop in 2011 and almost surely not in 2012. He will be an outfielder or DH with good batting average, OBA average, and speed, but limited power. As such, he would be worth maybe $10 million/year and at most a 2-year contract.
From a standpoint of winning, the Yanks shouldn’t offer any more than that. If they over-pay Jeter, there’s less money available to sign other good players. Furthermore, Jeter would probably accept that sort of contract, because he doesn’t want to leave the Yanks and because he couldn’t get much more from another team. Still, what will his psychology be if his salary is cut by over 50%?
Johnny we hardly knew ye.
CB
I think Theo so cherishes the thought that he has rebuilt the farm that it’s difficult for him to trade it away. Also received alot of praise from the media for what he had done with that as well.
Also even though they won a WS with Beckett, Theo has to hear all the praise leveled at Hanley.
Forget Damon he aint coming back…he is a butcher in LF and has a noodle arm
I think Cashman will bring in a LF through a trade
Making Damon an offer in hopes he would refuse seems a bit risky. Why take the chance? I know I’m one of the few, but I honestly believe the Yankees are not going after Holliday.
Chad,
He’s coming after them.
sunny615:
Good link. I can see some of Rosenthal’s points, and I usually ignore Rosenthal’s points. I’m still not thrilled with trading Swisher. If Melky’s offense doesn’t play well in LF, it definitely doesn’t play well in RF.
Braves eating contract would have to be part of Lowe deal.
Chad-
your the REPORTER. I give that EXTRA weight but could you please give your reason(s) WHY you think so ?
Thanks in advance.
lets go yankees (formerly lets go twins)
December 19th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Adrian Gonzalez is not some expensive talent that the Padres cannot afford to keep.
He is someone that basically any team in baseball can afford over the next 2 years. If the Padres make him available, there are several teams that can put together a better package then the Red Sox.
Like Jackie Z and the M’s?
Derek Lowe is washed up…and would get killed back in the AL
Braves could eat Lowe’s whole contract.and it still wont happen
Jack Z tried to get him at the deadline, but he wouldn’t give up one of the players he just gave up for Lee in that deal, so he didn’t get him.
From the Braves side of things what do we have that they need that we can afford to part with? They’ve got enough pitching for 2 teams, and we aren’t deep enough with ML talent anywhere to be able to give them anything in return, especially in the OF where they really need it.
Making Damon an offer in hopes he would refuse seems a bit risky. Why take the chance? I know I’m one of the few, but I honestly believe the Yankees are not going after Holliday.
—-
They weren’t hoping he would reject it. The offered a bargain and were only willing to take him back for that bargain.
mick
December 19th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Catfish on New Years.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And wasn’t that a hoot ?
Cashman was probably in high school when that went down and it was 100% George Steinbrenner with a slight assist from Gabe Paul.
CB, what do you think of how Cash is going about building this team? What thinks would you do differently? Are you satisfied that Cash has the Yankees built for a sustained run of success?
We were discussing in the other thread how remarkable it is that the Yankees old players just don’t play old – not only in comparison to the Sox, but to the every other team. Po will be gone in 2011, but we’re still going to have to pay Jeter and Mo. Will that hurt payroll flexibility? You’d think Hal would have to raise the budget, because I wonder how we can fill holes and still keep the team under $200 million when we have to pay Jeter and Mo. It would help if Joba and Phil were given the chance to start and solidifed their place in the rotation – we can save $$$ there. I’m not sure how we can get younger and more athletic when we have so much $$ tied up with Alex, Jeter, Tex. It’s amazing what Cash has done, but it seems to me that he’s limited (in a way) by so many big contracts. Our total lack of OF prospects anywhere close to the majors hurts. I wonder if we’re going to need to trade some of our arms….
Chad Jennings December 19th, 2009 at 8:15 pm
Making Damon an offer in hopes he would refuse seems a bit risky. Why take the chance? I know I’m one of the few, but I honestly believe the Yankees are not going after Holliday.
CHAD=========================================================
They did it to Torre. Why is it risky? They obviously have other plans.
They have to go after Holliday, if only to drive up his price elsewhere.
Cashman wasn’t in about 2nd grade when the Catfish deal went down.
Why do people want Lowe? Seriously – he was awful in the NL, but he’s going to revert to years past and be great in the AL East? I don’t think so.
Brian (Red Sox Fan)
December 19th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
CB and Let’s Go …..
My gut tells me that the Sox will beat anyone else’s package for Gonzalez (i.e. “overpay”); they have enough quality/quantity to do that.
—————————
Do they really have enough quality to do that?
Who would the package center around? Bucholz and Ellsbury? That offer can surely be beat by several teams in baseball. So, lets say you add in Kelly or Westmoreland. Is Hoyer really going to view those guys as adding significant value to the trade when they have yet to prove anything in the higher levels of the minors?
I do not think the Red Sox have enough quality to beat what other team’s are willing to offer unless they center the deal around Lester, which I highly doubt they are willing to do.
CB, I also meant to ask you about LF – do you think we can go into the season with Mellky?
That Torre thing was all a big hoax. They essentially sat down and said “hey, we’ll make an offer, you refuse it, we all move on with our lives”.
sunny615
December 19th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s…..ees-121709
I agree with Rosenthal here… (but the big IF part would Damon sucking it up and taking a 2 year $14 mil contract…)
——————————–
Why would the Yankees trade a younger, cheaper, and more productive RF to sign an older, less productive, and more expensive DH?
Why would the Yankees trade a younger, cheaper, and more productive RF to sign an older, less productive, and more expensive DH?
—————————–
Well, to be fair, George did that A LOT.
I don’t think that was Chad, usually his name would be in bold type.
LOL CB, forget my Melky question as I forgot I asked about it earlier.
I just came back from dinner with my parents – I can’t believe we went out in this weather. Some kids were playing with remote control cars in the parking lot – I passed the time between courses watching them, lol. Still I can’t believe we went out – it’s going to be ugly tomorrow (though the snow is beautiful).
Hmm…they let the world series MVP walk the plank and then push another solid player overboard. Why? To save money?
And so far they address the situation with a rent a wreck player in Nick Johnson!
To be sure the acquisition of Granderson looks good on paper but it remains to be seen how it plays out in the field in 10′.
If I am DJ I am wondering what they might have in mind for me when my contract is up in the near future. Will he be asked to take a 50% or more pay cut to bring his actual value as an everyday SS into line with what other SS’s are making at his level of production.
Just wondering.
So, I see two events as inevitable …. Gonzalez to the Sox, Holliday to the Yankees. Hoyer knows the Sox players, and would be more comfortable using player evaluations he has been privy to (just like football coaches try to recruit players from their previous teams).
__
What sick arrogance from Brian Red Sox fan. You are obviously a weasel. To expect the Padres to give up Gonzalez to any team, let alone the Red Sox, is sickening.
Not only do they not need to get rid of him, there are 20+ other teams with the talent and the need for a guy like Gonzalez.
Also, what makes you think Hoyer values the Red Sox prospects. He probably understands that most Red Sox propsects are overrated due to the media and baseball organizations such as BA and BP.
The Sox will beat any other team’s package with what, their low level “prospects.” I put prospects in quotes because they have never done anything to warrant being called prospects, other than wearing a Red Sox farm system uniform.
Get over yourself, and enjoy number 27 this holiday season!
You can’t compare a manager contract offer with a starting OF offer.
Its incredible how some people are stuck on Holliday.
Its absolutely obvious to anyone who watched yankeed play last year that they desperately need another starter. They were forced to go with 3 men rotation for the post season and were incredibly luck that Philly had only 1 quality starter. If there was a game 7, it would have been anyone’s game.
Yankee brass knows that they can not take those chances again. They have to get another pitcher.
Getting Holliday just improves an offense that doesn’t need improving.
As currently constructed, this team will win 95-100 games and clinch AL East. Holliday would probably ensuare 100-105 wins but post season rotation could be extremely shaky. Are 5 extra regular season wins worth risking another post season with 3 men roation? Clearly not. Ergo, no Holliday. So get over it.
I just came back from dinner with my parents – I can’t believe we went out in this weather. Some kids were playing with remote control cars in the parking lot – I passed the time between courses watching them, lol. Still I can’t believe we went out – it’s going to be ugly tomorrow (though the snow is beautiful).
====================================
Betsy-
Where did you eat?
I can’t imagine the Yankees thought Damon would accept $14 million for two years. So, I would imagine they had a plan for LF? I hope so…..
Unfortunately, there’s nothing we can do about our aging players as they are still darn good (it’s not like they’re aging and they’re bad). I hate to say it, but I’m glad Po’s contract is up in 2011 – we’ll have to massage him through the next two years. Jeter keeps himself in great shape – he looks like he can hit until he’s 40. Why not? Other players have done it. Alex, IMO, should be DH’d every couple of weeks….or given a precautionary day off here and there, just to keep him strong. We shouldn’t push it. If we had younger players closer to the majors, it would
Mick, some neighborhood Italian/pizza place called Phil’s. It’s very good…….there were people there, so we weren’t the only fools out in this weather, lol
When the media, and fans, and journalists say “Hoyer knows the Red Sox system”, why is it always that the implication is that Hoyer thinks highly of the Red Sox prospects?
Is it not possible that Hoyer thinks lowly of the Red Sox prospects?
Or is that not possible in the dream world inhabited by Buster Gammons Stark Callis Brian Red Sox fan?
The last time the Yanks let the WS MVP go they won 3 out of the next 4 WS.
“What sick arrogance from Brian Red Sox fan. You are obviously a weasel.”
This is absolute and utter nonsense. Why do you keep posting with this nasty, insulting tone?
Brian is a long time poster here – longer than you. He is a respectful poster and his opinion adds a lot to the blog. That he happens to be a red sox fan is entirely besides the point.
And on top of that – the quote you are being so melodramatically indignant about was his opinion to a specific question I asked.
His response was to me and my question and was welcome. I asked him for his opinion and was happy to see him respond openly.
So if you have this irrational hatred of the Sox, or the eagles or say people of other races – why don’t you think a minute before posting instead of making a fool of yourself.
Vader-
Maybe the problem only exists for you because I think the Yankees can and will do both.
I dont see it the way you do as an either a pitcher, or a hitter but not both problem.
if you do.
let’s just agree to diagree on that one.
Betsy-
since were blog friends.
If you like, I will lend you my snowblower and snowmobile to make things easier on you.
Betsy
Phils in Mass. next to country buffet?
CB, just read your earlier post and couldn’t agree more. Unfortunately, it’s not a very positive one…..Maybe Cash is wrong not to trade Joba or Phil. HO are we ever going to get younger when we have zilch in the minors to help us? I love Cash, but I wonder if he went WAY overboard in drafting pitchers. The idea of a farm system is to help the big club, correct? Well, we have no one that can help us. I know he traded Kennedy, but Cash is going to have to trade one of his arms in the minors to get some young OF prospects……..We could be looking at a one and done championship team.
Mick, Phil’s in Syosset, but I think it’s the same people….
Betsy,
I think Cash is doing a very strong job overall. And more importantly the combination of Cash and Hal is a very formidable one.
Cashman has a real sense of how to maximize the impact of the yankees financial advantages. He’s actively improving the team through so many routes – whether it’s signing CC for huge money last year or taking the time to look in the independent league for Edwar Ramirez or the rule 5 draft for Hoffman, etc.
The team is extremely well positioned for the next year and the intermediate term future.
MTU, thank, lol. Once the plows come tomorrow, it will be fine……..but I am glad to be inside and not on the road.
We say we need a starter, but the rest of the FA starters would either get killed in the AL Permiership, or come with injury/mood issue concerns. So who is this starter we’re supposed to be hording dough for? Ben Sheets? Won’t throw for awhile. Duke? May not have the makeup. Bedard? Hasn’t thrown/no one likes him. Really great choices among the three who could possibly fit.
We also do need a left fielder which Girardi reiterated at the Granderson Presser, and we know which one wants to be a Yankee.
If we really need a starter, Cash will have to make a Jedi trade for one.
Betsy-
How about minor leagues trades. They happen dont they.
Couldn’t cash swap some of our pitching depth for position players in the minors of similar quality ?
just a thought.
Cash is creative.
CR9:
I think the media assumes that since Hoyer helped draft those players, they’re the only ones that he’s going to want in a trade.
CR9-
What’s your problem buddy? Like CB said, Brian as well as ray are longtime posters here, respected as well.
Thanks, CB. Forgive my recent negative post, lol – when I say one and done, I don’t mean that they are going to tank. I guess I had maalox moment where I started fearing the worst….that’s gone. However, do you think we need to trade some of the young pitching (not Phil, I didn’t mean that, lol) to bring in some young OF prospects?
I love Cash, too and despite my occasional comments about Hal’s budget, I love him too. They obviously work well together…….and I suspect Cash loves this game of having to work within a budget. It allows him to use his smarts instead of just being able to burn $$$ at the best players.
MTU, yep – forget Joba and Phil. I had one iffy moment there, lol. That’s what I’m thinking. I hate to do it because we need the depth, but…..we may have to. Of course, many of our young pitchers are/were hurt, so that doesn’t help any. Cash is definitely creative – I see him with a wizard’s hat on, like Mickey Mouse in Fantasia, conjuring up all sorts of possibilities…..
Nite all. Pleasure chatting with y’all. Blogged out.
The point of stocking all those arms is to see which ones develop and which ones can be spun off for needed pieces.
And we also have like 5 pretty promising catchers in the system too. Some of them will surely be used for trades down the road. And Romine might end up becoming an OF himself.
The pressure is on St. Louis to sign Holliday at the insistence of Albert Pujols who wants him for protection.
Pujols is not a FA until after the 2011 season assuming the Cardinals pick up his 2011 option.
Holliday will be 30 years old on 1/15.
The clock is ticking …..
I do not have a problem with Red Sox, Eagles, fans of either or races of any kind.
I have a problem with arrogance.
It is possible I took that quote out of context, but to say it is “inevitable” that Gonzalez will end up with the Sox is as arrogant as arrogant gets.
That is my last post on that topic.
Betsy-
that’s cool.
he is lucky to have the tools he has at his disposal, and he is good at his job.
I am not worried about HIM.
he will make the best decision he can with the facts available. And will deal with Yankee needs in many different ways.
His preferred mode is FA but he is certainly open to other options.
He’s very open-minded.
CR9,
Brian’s not arrogant. Say you’re sorry and move on. No harm done.
Neil-
Link ????
CR9,
You are completely out of line. You blatantly insulted a very good poster and are now trying to take a holier than though attitude about “arrogance.”
Anyone think the Yanks “soft cap” and posturing with Damon has to do with the group of elders that Selig put together recently? He did say NOTHING in sacred meaning maybe they talk about a “soft” salary cap. I know the luxury tax is kind of like that but do you think they see the writing on the wall of some kind of harsher luxury tax?
Lost-
About time for you to chime in.
Anything more you can add ?
Betsy
I think you don’t understand Posada’s value on this team. He has been one of the important parts of their sucess and still is.
There’s more aggression and hostility here this winter, and just think The Yanks won the World Sereis…..LathamJoe noticed this the other evening…..I find myself getting caught up in it, last night in particular
If this was already posted or has been discussed I apologize.
•The Cubs are in need of a center fielder after the trade of Milton Bradley, but they are not leaning towards any particular candidate, according to Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. According to sources, Marlon Byrd and Scott Podsednik are the strongest options on the open market. However, the duo writes that GM Jim Hendry may also look into striking a deal with the Yankees for Brett Gardner or Melky Cabrera if they become available.
From MLBTR
They can’t do anything other than make recommendations. Also, they’re going to be focused on on-field things.
They can’t do anything about salaries or caps without approval from the MLBPA, and that ain’t happening.
Man. it’s really quiet on here tonite.
Did the snowstorm knock out everybody’s computers ?
In other business, in “real life,” when the economy is not quite so good, companies will retain their best people, but often EXPECT them to take some sort of salary adjustment. While it’s disappointing, it is also not totally unfair. When times are good, bonuses are fantastic – a reflection of the good times. So, it would seem intuitive that when times are not as good, the bonuses may be reduced or removed. It is not necessarily a reflection on the work you’ve done, but if you want to retain your job, you take the pay cut or bonus elimination.
While the Yankees seem to be “flusher” than many MLB organizations, the general health of the economy in baseball and elsewhere is not great. It is not unfair for the Yankees or any team to do a yearly review of where they want to spend their money and how, and to ask that those employees they want to retain because they value them to ride it out and take the downward adjustment.
In a sense, sports figures and entertainers in other areas have a serious disconnect with the hardships of economic life. What’s a million or two or ten?
In addition, it would be totally irresponsible of the Yankees to throw money around when the general climate is operating in a contrary manner.
Also, most of us, when we come up for salary review, are told what our strenghts and weaknesses are and our salaries reflect this (up and down). Damon has a series of weaknesses that were not apparent 4 years ago when he signed his first contract with the Yankees. He signed as a premier centerfielder and while he is a good player for the Yankees, he does not fill the same job description. He is now a leftfielder, and an inadequate one at that. He is older and he is not as strong in body. It is fair of the Yankees to set his salary accordingly. It is ignorant of Damon and Boras to insist that this is the same Johnny Damon that signed 4 years ago. It is also slightly arrogant.
I have no problem with players wanting to get the best deal they can. It is, after all, the American way – capitalism at its best. But it works both ways.
I am sorry Damon probably won’t be back. He is likeable and I was ecstatic when the Yankees first signed him. I was very excited when he kept talking about wanting to stay a Yankee.
Lowell to Texas is off. Boy Wonder loses again!
To look at the rotation on the positive side:
CC is a stud…..AJ is good/very good (whatever – let’s not debate him for now). Andy is solid (though, IMO, he’s going to give us #4 numbers as a #3). Now, IMO, Joba is the key. I have NO clue how he’s going to pitch. I have no idea if he’ll come to camp in shape, if he will drop his stubborn act, whatever. However, if he’s good (not great, but good), that’s a huge help. Then, Phil at #5 will be a normal #5…..but at least we can break him in and you know he’ll show some of that promise we know he has. If we can get Joba to be good and Phil to be relatively good (as a #5), the rotation could be very solid. The bonus would be that, next year, Phil and Joba will more experienced and better pitchers. They’re still young – in a few years, we could have real studs on our hands.
I wonder if we should trade some of our young catching for ML position players – though, unless we traded Romine, I’m not sure that’s possible given that the others are way down in the lower levels (and what team will trade for prospects that young?)….
Our former blog host has tweeted that the Lowell to Rangers deal is off … Lowell needs thumb surgery.
MTU -
Don’t know about anyone else, but lots of responsibilities at this time of year severely cut into my Lohud time.
Wow……watch Lowell have a great year. How happy is HE going to be, though? Didn’t the team spread stories about him when the trade first went down?
What would Melky’s trade value be?
Pat M
Sometimes you can only resist from jumping into the fray for so long. Biting the tongue makes it hurt after awhile.
By the way, I wanted to comment about the prior thread regarding Joba.
I am very happy to hear about Joba’s off-season. I hope he’s really in a better place than he was last year.
It can only translate positively in all aspects of his life.
Pat M, keep fighting the good fight.
Maine Yankee, not true……….but Posada is aging and is nearing the end. He’s got a big contract – and I’m hoping by the time his contract is up, Montero or Romine are ready to take over. He can’t play forever and the Yankees are not going to give him a big contract when his current one expires.
“I wonder if we should trade some of our young catching for ML position players – ”
To play where exactly?
Wouldn’t surprise me, Boston has a history of trashing guys before their bags are even packed.
Wow. Boston is screwed. They clearly think he has nothing left in the tank to try to trade him and pay pretty much his whole salary. Unless he is about to become a very expensive bench player they cannot sign or trade for a 1B/3B
Betsy:
I think the Yankees would trade Montero before they trade Romine. The Yankees are pretty set in the infield, so would they trade for an outfielder? I think they’re pretty set there, too.
They won’t trade either one of them. Montero will be catching and Romine will get moved to a corner OF spot.
What’s the time table for thumb ligament surgery recovery?
I wonder what the Yankees could get back if they traded him to the Cubs. Nothing too great I expect.
Pat M -
There’s a lot of new “faces” here this year. The vibe has changed somewhat.
I agree that the discourse is not always as friendly as it should be. Disagreement is not the problem – it is the tone of the disagreement. We’ve had many great discussions here since I’ve been a part of this blog (November ‘06). Most were very civil.
There’ve always been trolls, but they’re easily ignored. When the friction comes from other Yankees fans, it’s discomforting, to say the least.
I find myself posting less and less. (Although this week’s my usual pre-Christmas schedule – kind of hit-and-running the blog.)
Game threads are a whole different animal, though. Those have always been, um, schizophrenic.
Dos Equis….the Most Cliched Man in the World…
Well when you try and trade a player that you know is hurt, sometimes it comes back and bites ya. Can’t think Lowell will be too thrilled to stick around Boston after this.
Yanks arent trading Montero…his bat is one of the best to come through our system in a long time
Pokey:
According to Baseball America’s review of the Yankee top 10 prospects the Yankees are no longer talking about Montero being strickly a catcher … he may catch, DH AND play some 1B. Romine is the complete package … he’ll be the catcher of the future before Montero is, and if that’s true, then Montero’s value diminishes just a little.
MaineYankee & Tom in NJ,,,,Maybe it’s a result fron hanging out with GB7 & Randy I ( The Original Tin Cup ) too long…..I’m mutli-tasking right now, as the house is getting invaded by Party guests & I’m on the patio grilling my tail off….My house is the staging area, and then the party moves across the street….Screwdrivers are catching up….I squezzed 10 dozen oranges off the tree earlier……Keep the faith guys, the LoHud will round into shape
Considering both Abreu and Figgins (who have similar skill sets to Johnny, I’d say Figgins’s skill set is actually better) signed contracts with AAV of $9 million, I think Johnny going to have a very tough time getting more than that…
2003 ALCS game 7 is on and right after they cut to a shot of Nick Johnson in the dugout, Matsui hit a ball over the head of Johnny Damon.
The Yankees don’t give BA proprietary info. That post about Montero is a shot at the Yanks.
The Yankees don’t give BA proprietary info. That post about Montero is a shot at the Yanks.
I am sorry if I have been part of the problem, but not to make excuses, I have a poster here who is obsessed with me. I try to avoid responding so I don’t poison the atmosphere, but I’m only human…..
Doreen, really well said. In my firm (and the owners are VERY employee friendly – they actually know you, they don’t treat you as some drone), they had to cut off bonuses last year (and raises) in order to avoid laying anyone off.
The thing I love most now about the direction we’re going in is that the team has a plan and it’s sticking to it. A player we’re targeting is just trying to extort more $$$ from us? Forget it – we have an alternative. We are no longer so desperate for players that we give them everything they want. Also, Cash will not allow this team to be used by players just so that their preferred teams will increase their offers……..A team with money and smarts is dangerous.
Phil:
BA’s review of Montero is a shot at the Yanks?
I like the approach Cashman and Hal are taking.
Still not sure Holliday will be a Yankee…but if St. Louis doesn’t lock him up….there’s not many more places he can reasonably go.
Stuckey, what do you mean to play where? To play in AA or AAA -wherever. We need OF and INF prospects that are relatively close to the majors……we’re barren there, as CB said.
Pokey, I love Romine, so I hope that’s true……..
@ngerman,
The Yanks still expect Montero to be their catcher. And if they had another plan, they most certainly wouldn’t tell BA. Btw, BA called Montero a bust after his first instructs, even though they had no representatives there. They have been on the kids jock ever since the Yanks got him.
I always take what BA says with a grain of salt. Why would we try him at first when Tex is filling that spot for the foreseeable future? DHing I understand though, because his bat is going to be ML ready before his glove is.
Romine is going to be great as well, but there has been talk for a while about possibly moving him to a corner OF spot if Montero continues to catch as well as he has. He apparently projects well there defensively.
I think it’s more likely Suttle gets moved to the outfield first though.
Phil-
Just curious.
If the money is the same do you think Holliday has a preference who he plays for ? Yankees or cardinals.
Not sure the Yanks “expect” Montero to be their catcher. I think “hope” Montero can be their catcher, might be more accurate.
Cards.
CB: You better watch out, you dissed Juan Pierre who never strikes out and has a decent enough average, which means all the old coots on this blog probably think he is better than Nick Johnson
Pat M
Randy and I have some disagreements but I think when all is said and done we realize we’re like a comple of old roosters in the barnyard. We talk big but can’t fight anymore.
Phil,
They expect him to be. He’s a lot further along than a lot of people think.
MTU,
Probably the Yanks, to make his dad happy.
mick
December 19th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Catfish on New Years.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And wasn’t that a hoot ?
Cashman was probably in high school when that went down and it was 100% George Steinbrenner with a slight assist from Gabe Paul.
___________________
LOL! Try Grade School. Cash was 8 years old at that time.
Montero:
One thing we do know about Montero is he aint gonna beat Usain Bolt in a sudden death foot race.
I would still not be worried for him if he cant make the Yankees. Football might just suit him. A BIG dude ! And obviously STRONG !
Lineman, or Linebacker type.
No, expect is too strong a word.
They hope he maintains his progress and that Tony Pena can mold him into a solid, defensive catcher.
Theres too much Phil-andering going on here, one of you Phils gots ta go
Holliday developed a strong relationship with Tony LaRussa and his staff. He really liked it there…that can’t be underestimated as the environment and security are very important to him.
Still up in the air.
If Montero can catch even 80-100 games at the major league level without embarassing himself I will consider that a success.
I know the yankees most likely have great roving instructors and stuff, but I really want Montero up at the majors with Tony Pena and Girardi.
Age-old argument about registration. I’ve been posting under this name since 2007 – Pete’s salad days when the game threads were every other game or so. More come along and “claim” the name.
We need registration.
Jerk-
and he’s obviously schizophrenic since he sees the same thing in 2 different ways.
Phil,
I don’t know who you talk to, but I know who I talk to.
The Yankees have won 5 world series with Posada behind the plate and he’s not exactly Johnny Bench back there. If Montero can just be descent defensively then I think they will try and keep him there because of how huge an advantage it is to have a catcher that can hit. Now when it gets Mike Piazza bad back there then I question whether its worth it or not, but they will just have to see how he develops.
“One thing we do know about Montero is he aint gonna beat Usain Bolt in a sudden death foot race.”
No crap MTU. Nobody’s going to be Bolt in a sudden death foot race…well, unless that tackle him before he gets started.
Why would you know with whom I speak?
The “unhappy player” angle is an interesting theory except for the fact that they have drawn from that well successfully with Andy Pettitte. Andy stated throughout the season he was not happy with his contract last year but it didn’t effect his performance. Damon is, if anything, a true professional so the argument is weak so it seems more likely they just wanted to move on and were looking for a reason.
I’ve been here since the blog started and have always had it linked to my blog in my name. Not Yankees.com.
Wait, so I thought Holliday wanted to be a Yankee? Then this makes no sense – if he prefers the Cards, what is he waiting for? I personally never bought into the idea that he wanted to be a Yankees, but that is all people keep saying. Based on what are they saying this? Let Holliday stay in ST. Louis if that’s what he wants and let Cash get another LF.
Pokey, to be honest, GB has mentioned Romine moving to a corner OF spot, but I’m not sure the Yankees have discussed it. He appears to be a better defensive catcher than Montero
I would pay money to see Bolt race Giambi around the bases. Start Giambi at 2nd or maybe 3rd and see who touches home first?
I said I don’t know who you speak to, but I know who I speak to with the Yankees.
Phil, haven’t you been saying that Holliday wanted to be a Yankee?
Easy there, blake. Jorge wasn’t the primary catcher on the ‘96 team. In fact, it’s a bit of a gift that he has a ring for that year since he only played in 8 games in the bigs that year…
Not true, other Phil.
But I don’t care to argue. We need registration.
Betsy – the word from his camp is that he is legitimately torn. Loved St. Louis, but intrigued by the other options – especially NYC and the lure of the Yankees.
Betsy last time I heard anything, they weren’t that far apart defensively. If they were, I think they’d still be attached at the hip in the minors.
I think the Holliday situation will boil down to just how bad St. Louis wants him and how much money they have to spend with Pujol’s free agency looming.
I think the Yankees have a max bid that they are willing to spend that is probably higher than what the Cards have offered to this point. If the Cards decide that they really need Holliday and raise the bid significantly then I doubt the Yankees will chase. However, if St. Louis has already bid close to their max then I think Holliday will be wearing pinstripes next year.
Betsy-
You’re getting confused.
Phil’s got a dopple Ganger. An impersonator.
I miss the optimism push of Rebecca two seasons ago.
Very true. I’ve always been the bolded Phil. The other Phil used to be unbolded. I don’t know if you’re the old other Phil, but you’re not linking to your own site.
Man, Holliday should stay with the Cards. If he only wants to sign with the Yankees to make his dad happy, no thanks……Fortunately, he’ll sign with the Cards.
MaineYankee….Randy I, is just an old former banged up catcher with cranky knees………Matsui just turns on Pedro and its a lazer down the right field line…..Wonder if Grady is watching tonight …….Doreen, I agree with you on all points…..
Yes, Holliday wants to be a Yankee, otherwise he’d be a Card already.
Ok, 4 and a half championships, lets nit pick why don’t we.
No, not an impersonator. I’ve been here for years.
Other Phil has been here awhile.
Two different people.
We need registration.
So for quite some time last season we heard about how the Red Sox – the model franchise – were not only light years ahead of the yankees in terms of their sophisticated front office, but also in the area of sports medicine – Alex’s hip front and center. The Sox on the other hand had the best sports medicine team in the business and did biometric testing, etc.
The season’s been over almost two and a half months for the sox.
And no one diagnosed Mike Lowell’s torn thumb ligaments until he was traded and the rangers doctors looked at him?
Phil-
If he is truly torn that’s great.
Let’s just give one half to St. Louis and keep the other half for ourselves.
Problem solved !
Phils everywhere!
But what top FA isn’t going to say they love the idea of playing for the team with the deepest pockets?
will the real Phil please stand up
I agree – registration please. These trolls are utterly pathetic.
Testing, testing.
I never had my own site…have always used yankees.com.
I am here less and less now due to the negativity…just happened to be snowed in tonight.
Holliday does not definitively want to be a Yankee. He wants more options, but LOVES St. Louis. Dude is a thorough, analytical individual who wants to be sure.
The thing is, the Yankees haven’t made an offer and they may never. It’s strange that Holliday hasn’t accepted – he’s not getting much more from any team, even if the Yankees do make an offer. Also, if he’s really torn and loves St. Louis, I doubt Holliday is going to agree to any creative accounting (backloading, etc…..). If he really wanted to be a Yankee, I could buy it…..but he doesn’t.
“We need registration.”
True. At the same time, what is the point of posting your handle with a link embedded when the link points to yankees.com and not a personal web site – especially when there is another Phil posting with a handle in bold already?
And I’ve had my own site since this blog started, and my name has always been linked to it and bolded. Your’s is bolded for no reason.
Betsy – neither of us are trolls…we just need registration, that’s all.
Phil-Impersonator.
I’d hate to see him working on the Manhattan project with his analytical skills.
I understand being analytical…..I’m that way myself. I analyze everything to death, not that that’s a good thing. He has an offer from St. Louis – just take it already. If he doesn’t, that’s his issue. IMO, the Yanks should try and make a trade for a LF…..
Bolded for no reason?
Says who?
What’s wrong with promoting the Yankees’ site? Providing an easy link?
Have been doing it for going on four years now…check backwards, you’ll see.
I was just messin’ with ya blake…
Phil, I know you’re not a troll………..I thought the other one was pretending to be you (it’s happened before) on purpose.
Betsy – not that easy decision to make. Signing off on where you’ll be living / working for the next 8 years? That’s quite a commitment. It is easy for us to tell him to just make a decision. But another thing entirely to be in his shoes.
Gee, Phil, seems like you just like having your name in bold. I and I’m sure a bunch of us have the Yankees.com toolbar on browsers. All you’ve done is created confusion by linking to a site all Yankee fans around the world already know about and don’t need you promoting.
I bet one of them is Phil Hughes…..
Holliday’s not getting an 8 year deal and no one is offering him one.
CB – I’m surprised. We’ve had some great discourse in the past.
But, whatever…this season, I stopped going to the game threads and posting because of the negativity and getting married. If I do check the game threads, it is a quick look for information. Ditto most of the off-season.
Just too much crap to wade through unless I really have the time. Otherwise, I search for SJ’s and CB’s posts, then move on.
Phil, I was think about Rebecca, she was a regular and always offered an interesting view on issues……Very gifted writer….
Why do people bold their names with no site of their own to link to?
Phil, that’s true – but it’s not 8 years. What I’m saying is that if he wants to be a Cardinal and loves St. Louis, what’s the hold up? It’s probably just Boras trying to get the Yankees to get involved so that the Cards raise their offer. I hope the Yankees stay far away and don’t allow themselves to be used.
“Stuckey, what do you mean to play where? To play in AA or AAA -wherever. We need OF and INF prospects that are relatively close to the majors……we’re barren there, as CB said.”
I’m not arguing that the Yanks don’t have above average or + positional prospects at the high levels, I’m just not sure they have a pressing need at the moment.
Every position but arguably left field is locked by a high-level starter at the moment. And you don’t trade pitching depth or a depth at a leverage position like catcher for injury protection.
3B, SS, 2B, 1B, RF, CF are all well manned for the next 2 season or more, at which time lower level projects have time to begin distinguishing themselves at upper level.
And Montero MIGHT wind up being a player that fills a need at corner OF (or even DH).
Again, no argument that Yanks don’t have a big-time OF or INF prospect less than 2 years away, but I also don’t think they have a pressing need for one.
I thought one of the Phil’s was traded to the Tigers.
“I’m surprised. We’ve had some great discourse in the past.”
It’s nothing personal in any way.
This is just extremely confusing. I brought up the question as a point of clarity.
Agree that registration is needed – but for right now this is needlessly confusing.
Again – it’s nothing personal, nor is it about the preference to link to yankees.com. It’s just a pragmatic issue.
Other Phil – I’m quite certain I don’t need your permission to do it. Have been doing it for years. Bold makes it easier when I refresh to scroll to the last post and move down from there. Give it a rest, kid.
And yes, St. Louis would give 8 years, if his AAV came down. That is a fact. However, Holliday’s camp doesn’t want to drop the AAV to provide that type of security that Matt covets.
Betsy, yes, that is the question. What’s the hold up? Why wait till Johnny Damon is gone from the Yanks if you want to be a Card and like that phony LaRussa?
It’s a win win for Holliday.
He’s gonna be rich either way.
Where he’s gonna live ? Easy. Is he married ? Just ask the wife.
And nobody is TELLING him anything.
Maybe his wife doesn’t like the shopping in NY ?
Being a bit flip. Yeah. Flip a coin if you can’t decide.
whatever. It isn’t gonna be the end of the world as you make it seem.
Wow. NY and St. Louis must be virtually identical. didn’t know that.
I have to say, when you’re talking about this much money, why do players not just go where they want to go, even if it’s for a little less? What’s $2 million a year when the total salary is $14 million vs. $16 million, for example? Instead, we get these protracted “negotiations.”
Sigh.
Holliday seemed like a real good fit in St. Louis, so if he likes it there, just go there already.
The rest of the world would really get over it – quickly, too, I’d guess.
I have to say, when you’re talking about this much money, why do players not just go where they want to go, even if it’s for a little less? What’s $2 million a year when the total salary is $14 million vs. $16 million, for example? Instead, we get these protracted “negotiations.”
Sigh.
Holliday seemed like a real good fit in St. Louis, so if he likes it there, just go there already.
The rest of the world would really get over it – quickly, too, I’d guess.
So what does Boston do with Lowell now?
Betsy – I don’t know what is going through his head. I hope he comes East. I just think he has as much chance of that as he does of going back to St. Louis.
How about the Phils agree to use the first letter of their last name? Then maybe we can move on…
St.Louis’s 8 year offer is really a 5 year offer with 3 club options. It’s not a real 8 year offer.
You don’t need my permission, but I was here first, bolded first and now must be concerned that what you have said bolded has been taken as coming from me.
Stuckey, good points.
Phil, I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic or not. I wasn’t implying anything about LaRussa…….AT this point now, I don’t care where Holliday goes.
Boston now has a very sticky situation with Lowell. They’ve tried to trade him a couple of times now after he took a hometown discount of around $12M to stay with them.
He can’t be happy about the way they’ve treated him – especially because in the usual Red Sox fashion they started leaking negative stories about Lowell being a negative presence in the locker room when the trade to Texas was going through.
Lowell’s a stand up guy but this is not a pretty situation – especially with the knocks on his character.
Doreen – I wonder the same things.
Last year, SJ made a great post from his perspective in dealing with the MLBPA – said the pressure to take top dollar, in past years, was tremendous coming from the union.
I imagine that pressure is still around to some degree.
The Phil’s should join forces and create a commenting tag team.
Call yourself The Philthies.
True or false. If Damon (with tail between his legs) comes back and says “OK, I’ll take your last offer, 2 years, $14 million”, do the Yanks do it? And if they do, does Swish get traded (thereby saving around $21 million(?) between 2011 and 2012for next year’s free agents)? And if yes, what type of return do the Yankees look for in trading Swish?
Heredia became a joke in circles but I always loved his live stuff. Too bad he could have been a “crazy” control guy.
Dunn could be that guy.
Blake-
tell him to put that that thumb right back where always used to keep it !
Other Phil – give it a rest. The constant “me, first” whining is boring and drags down the board.
I wonder if the Sox will quickly pull the trigger on something else. They’re probably about as wounded as an animal can be over the 3M and having to keep Lowell.
Well, Doreen and I agree….If he loves St.Louis so much, there is no reason to leave. I hope his dad is not pressuring him to sign with the Yankees…..
Speaking of our current Heredia, that dude from Hardball Times needs a reality check.
Heredia does not throw in the mid-90s – which is what the guy wrote when he put together his Top Ten Yanks’ Prospects list.
Goes to show what those lists are worth. Who cares what BA or HBT says any way. BA has Gardner as the Yanks’ starting CF in 2013. People are clueless – watch the players yourself.
“I don’t know what is going through his head.”
and that’s the problem. HE doesn’t seem to either if what you said is true.
He’ll sort it out Eventually………………..(Infinity)
I don’t know why they’d get rid of Swisher, at this point. He’s their number 2 OF right now.
Yankees.com Phil. It was me first I link to my own site. You bold your name and it sucks that people will ever get us confused cause you like your name dark but have no proprietary content linked to it.
Phil Esposito banner.
Settle it.
He can’t be happy about the way they’ve treated him – especially because in the usual Red Sox fashion they started leaking negative stories about Lowell being a negative presence in the locker room when the trade to Texas was going through.
There is a little problem with your theory. Baseball season is over. There are no players in the clubhouse right now. They already packed up their things for the winter.
If Hal allows Cash to stretch to get Holliday…I can see the headlines now: “Yankees ruin baseball with spending.”
On lowell:
I dont believe the SOX did not know about Lowell’s thumb.
They tried to pass off damaged goods, and now it their reputation which has been damaged.
I think teams are going to approach trading with the Wunderkind with a lot more caution.
If that hurts them going forward.
Great.
They can just look in the mirror on that one.
Boston trashing Lowell as they try to get rid of him doesn’t surprise me. However, it does upset me. By all accounts he’s one of the nicest and most stand-up guys in all of baseball, and Theo & co. have no right or reason to treat him like that.
And Damon is gone, deal with it. Even if he wasn’t, Most likely the guy to get moved is GGBG or Hoffman gets sent back to the Dodgers.
Yankees Save Baseball With Revenue Sharing And Luxury Tax!
So Boston now has to decide whether to play him, sit him, or try to trade him again after his surgery.
Other Phil – you sound like my 3 year-old neighbor’s son who recently said:
“I saw the sun come up first. It was me. I found it before anyone else.”
Give it a rest.
Phil Esposito was possibly the dumbest human being to ever hold an executive position in the NHL.
And he traded Reijo Ruotsalainen for Don Jackson….
Don Jackson.
Phil (bolded) -
Unions don’t always have the best interests of the individual at heart.
Posada laid off there nice.
This is not incredibly confusing or anything.
Why can’t he bold the name if he wants?
PHil / non-Yankees.com, quit the crying.
So does the Lowell news make it more or less important for them to trade for a new corner infielder?
Money vs Manpower?
If they were willing to eat 9 why not 12, I guess.
Was Ramirez needed to get something done?
Holliday wants the deal done by Christmas–those in the supposed know have said as much.
My guess is we’ll know fairly soon.
As I’ve said before, you’re going to spend the $17 AAV x 5 on Holliday or Carl Crawford (if he’s available) if you want the best LF out there in the next few years. One or the other, if you feel that you need production out of LF.
Personally, I’d want a RH behind Alex so they can’t pitch around him in the late innings. That RH is not going to be Melky, and it’s not going to be Swisher. If it’s going to be a LH, then it will be Johnson, with Granderson leading off or batting 2nd?
This is one of those situations where the player makes sense, but the $$$$ seem just a bit too much to pay. Who knows? In any event, I suspect that this will come to an end soon.
Question about past stadium infield designs. In this picture ( http://images.marketworks.com/.....dium06.jpg ) I see several circles in foul territory that I don’t see on fields today. Does anyone know why the fields of the 1950’s had additional circles? Were any of these used for the starting pitcher to warm up instead of the bullpen?
Does anyone know why relief pitchers stopped entering in vehcles?
As I recall, Giambi homers here…Wells comes in and gives up a jack to make it 5-2, IIRC…
Doreen – agreed.
Bed time for my family.
Good night, all.
As the Red Sox inch closer to the luxury tax, it is possible that 3 million means something
We really need not only registration, but a way to stay on topic. Seriously need an open thread per day, with all other posts subject to being relevant.
Wow…Giambi looking svelte…
Jeez it’s not like these guys are getting cut from 20$ an hour to 10$.
Ken Lofton,
I was here first. Believe me I’m not crying. I just don’t like the confusion and don’t buy his bolding based on a site he has no affiliation with.
I am going to shower now.
Its been a while since I notified the blog of when I am showering. I thought I would recapture some of the 2009 season magic
Pitt-
“In any event, I suspect that this will come to an end soon.”
Hallelujah !!!!!
Where would Melky or GGBG go in a trade? KC and Cubs don’t exactly match up with the Yankees.
Why didn’t the union kill Roy Halladay for taking a below market deal from the Phil’s?
GWALK…They’re fungo circles…Infield & outfield ( which they really don’t use anymore
Pitt-
from your mouth to Holliday’s ears.
Granderson isn’t batting 1st or 2nd. He’s going to be in either the 5 or 6 spot, possibly 7.
Man, Soriano had a fast ass bat back then
Something tells me that Halladay doesn’t take calls from the union.
“If they were willing to eat 9 why not 12, I guess.
Was Ramirez needed to get something done?”
The biggest issue for the Sox may simply be the roster spot.
They are relatively old in certain places and Lowell clearly is not someone they want around – they’ve written him off. They really could use the roster spot.
They been saying they would use Kotchman at 1b and Youkilis at 3b (though that would really hurt an already problematic offense). They could use Lowell at 1b with the idea that 1b would help hide his lack of lateral range – however, Tito has already said he doesn’t want to use lowell at 1 with youkilis at 3b.
At the same time I don’t think they simply want to DFA him either.
It’s a strange situation. They are very lucky to have Tito managing that club.
We’ve talked alot today about how players should take less money to play for a certain team or for a certain situation. Lowell did exactly that when he was a free agent and got the shaft.
“As the Red Sox inch closer to the luxury tax, it is possible that 3 million means something”
True. Not sure what % they would be billed at.
Yanks are at 40% because they are repeat offenders.
Don’t know if it is consecutive offenses or cumulative offenses that accelerate the rate?
Quite the conundrum Theo probably wasn’t counting on.
The Sox right now have 5 guys for 4 spots. Aside from Youk, none of them are any good at the fielding parts of those spots. Also, unless they’re planning on making Kotchman, Papi and Varitek all part time players, how are they going to get V-Mart the ABs he needs?
As far as I am concerned the Lowell thing could not have happened to a nicer team.
Make that 6 guys for 4 spots.
I still have nightmares of Soriano swinging at sliders in the other batter’s box.
Phils -
Maybe throw a last initial up there to remove the confusion? Keep it bolded, remove confusion, win-win.
I really don’t see why the Sox have bury everybody on their way out the door. What does it ever get them?
Thank you Pat M. Sorry for the interruption.
Question: If you were gonna investment 10-15 million on a pitcher would it be on Sheets or with a guy with an unlimited ceiling in Aroldis Chapman? A blazing lefty to boot! I say go get Chapman.
How do you like the new look?
Pitt, Holliday wants to go back to the Cards. The Yankees have not made an offer and they may never make one. I really don’t get what he’s waiting for…..sign with the team he’s comfortable with and be done with it.
Phil-
the reputation they so richly deserve !
They’re petty, just like their owner.
Lowell wouldn’t be a problem if he hadn’t had his hip problems and now his thumb injury. That is the risk of signing the older players, they have a higher chance of breaking down.
The RS were looking to get some value out of Lowell by that trade, but with all they were eating on his salary it was pennies to the dollar. I can see them coming to the conclusion that they will DFA him.
Lowell can’t be all that happy with Boston right now anyway. He gave them a discount and they are sending him out to pasture while painting him in a poor light.
Chapman probably won’t get a major league deal. So we can give him whatever we want over 4 over 5 years. We can bonus him now, and keep his major league salaries low.
Chapman is a project, Sheets isn’t. Even if they did sign him, chances are he wouldn’t reach the bigs until August, if at all in his first season.
And after the throwing session the other day, 15 mil. won’t even get you to the table with him.
Silverman from the Herald is saying 6-8 weeks recovery from surgery for Lowell.
Betsy-
Obviously Holliday has trouble making decisions. Some people do.
They just cant sort through the chaff to get to the wheat so to speak.
They bogged down by too much detail.
The best way I personally found to make decisions is to try to SIMPLIFY the promlem first.
If a person can do that it usually makes the whole process a lot easier.
JMHO. It works for me. (LOL)
Chapman is going to want a spot on the 40 Phil.
“Aside from Youk, none of them are any good at the fielding parts of those spots”
Kotchman is actually a very good defensive 1B
“Holliday wants to go back to the Cards. The Yankees have not made an offer and they may never make one. I really don’t get what he’s waiting for…..sign with the team he’s comfortable with and be done with it.”
We don’t know any of that..he’s waiting for someone to make a higher offer. If he wanted to stay in St. Louis so bad he would have signed already. I suspect he would play a couple different places and like most players is telling Boras to “show me the money”.
Holliday’s looking for 4 things: money, years, winning and being comfortable where he ends up.
Betsy, where have you read anything stating that Holliday wanted to go back to St. Louis over all other clubs? If he hasn’t signed with them he either isn’t satisfied with the offer or is having some interest being shown by other clubs or at least one other club.
That doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be happy in St. Louis, but if it is the team he wants to play for the deal would be progressing.
Something is keeping him from signing.
“Holliday’s looking for 4 things: money, years, winning and being comfortable where he ends up”
Agreed. And in precisely that order.
Got me there Frank. When I said 5 originally, I somehow left out Kotchman. Problem with him though is that there isn’t a lot of power in that stick.
“Holliday’s looking for 4 things: money, years, winning and being comfortable where he ends up.”
I think both NY and St. Louis satisfy the last 2 of those so it will come down to the first 2 as usual.
“I really don’t see why the Sox have bury everybody on their way out the door. What does it ever get them?”
The “break up” becomes the players “fault” and not the FO’s with the fanbase.
It may only be a marginal impact – but it’s a way of ushering out popular players by painting them as problems that have to be eliminated.
The idea that Lowell – a guy with a sterling reputation – was a clubhouse problem is just hard to believe.
But like clock work that’s what they leaked just as they were trading him.
It’s PR – and the spin is designed to make their personnel moves seem like necessities and the rational thing to do.
When did the Red Sox trashed Lowell?I have been reading most of the blogs and I havent see any negative story about Lowell. Are you talking about the story that Lowell is not going to be happy about getting traded after he took a discount by some of the media? Isnt it true that he wouldnt be happy? Do you call that trashing? Most of the stories I read they are talking about Lowell being a nice guy a class act.
Pokey,
More than he’s gonna want lots of money? The Yanks changed their whole IFA stategy for this year when Chapman defected. They were turned off when he wouldn’t throw at the stadium, but I think they liked what they saw the other day.
If they have to do a major league deal, I’d rather they pay him then play a big league starter who will block Phil or Joba.
Abda:
Holliday has said that “all things being even” he’d prefer to stay in St. Lou. I don’t think any clarification is required on the “all things” part of that statement.
blake,
I think the Yankees obviously potentially offer more money, but I think STL would be more willing on the contract length.
Honestly, I don’t think he makes a decision until Bay signs, which really sets his asking price.
This 2003 ALCS Game 7 is bringing back memories….Row W in Section 10…My GF has moved from her seat to one unoccupied, to escape a Red Sox fan who has been giddily chirping without rest into a cell phone:
“No one’s saying a word to me..aha….I can say anything I want,hah.hu-hah….No one’s saying anything…ha-HA!…Place is so quiet…” Etc.
She is turning to me looking daggers at me…The people who have one of the seats she’s now in come back after, I assume, some drinking binge somewhere else in the Stadium..they are not pleased she’s in the seat, and become outraged when she refuses to give it up…
“You’re kidding, right?…” they say.
“I’m not only not kidding, I’m not moving. Now you can call the security guard if you like, or you can take the seat next to me, if you want us to come back and win this game. You do want to win the game, don’t you? I’m not moving.”
The matter of factness, dead seriousness, and lack of negotiating tone disarms them. Outrage gives way to bewilderment. They reluctantly accept the terms and sit down.
After the game, hugs and kisses are exchanged…”You were right! Glad you stayed in the seat!” …..Euphoria all around.
The guy with the cell phone was long gone, having creeped off a few seconds after Posada chased Pedro with the game-tying double….
LOL A lot better – and a lot less confusing, Phil Thrill!
“Holliday has said that “all things being even” he’d prefer to stay in St. Lou. I don’t think any clarification is required on the “all things” part of that statement.”
Most free agents say that about the team they were on the previous year. Damon and Matsui both said they would prefer to remain in NY and guess what neither one of them are going to. Its a way of not disrespecting the guys you just played with.
What does a major league deal get a talent like Chapman? Nothing really. It’s a silly abstract benefit and seems to be something Boras did just to sell to prospects as a marginal extra he could get for them.
There’s no question about Chapman’s talent. If he isn’t on a major league roster by the time he’s burned through his options then there is a much deeper problem going on.
Jeter was faaaast back in `03.
Jesus Montero flew around the bases and GM Brian Cashman started calling the scouts who signed him, saying, “Hey, you won’t believe what your boy just did.”
It was a spring training game against the Phillies and the 18-year-old Montero had just taken an awkward swing against Vic Darensbourg, a pitcher with eight years in the majors, and the ball sailed over the right-field wall for an opposite-field home run.
“That was a great organizational moment,” Cashman said. “He mis-swung and it went into the bleachers
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....z0aCFkyaQF
MTU – I am one of those people, believe me. I weigh everything very carefully; I can’t even decide what to get at a diner, lol. There’s nothing for Holliday to decide. He has an offer on the table from a team he loves. He’s not nothing from the Yankees. In other words, he is not being offered a choice from column A or column B – he’s not being offered a choice at all.
I want Chapman badly – I think RAB wrote that the Yanks were trying to set up a private session with him.
Betsy,
I heard about them trying to set up a private session as well. Wonder what is going on with that.
“Jeter was faaaast back in `03.”
And Matsui didn’t limp.
“There’s no question about Chapman’s talent.”
I’ve read where some wonder why he was not more successful in Cuban baseball. Physical tools to dominate apparently were there, but his numbers were somewhat pedestrian. I’ve only seen him in the WBC. He wasn’t very good there either. Didn’t seem to deal well with adversity. Obviously that can change with maturity.
Blake, well CC was worth throwing the $$$ at and hoping he’d love NY. Holliday /Boras are just using the Yankees to get the Cards to bid higher – that’s not acceptable to me and it’s what the Yanks don’t allow anymore. Holliday will just have to take the offer that stands because he’s not getting a better one.
Listen to the noise at the old place!
“I’ve read where some wonder why he was not more successful in Cuban baseball. ”
They have – but that has little to do with how he would theoretically benefit from being on a major league deal now.
It doesn’t get him anything besides a theoretical advantage once all of this options are burned.
And if makes it, he’s going to make it well before then anyway. The team that signs him is going to pay a lot of money – their impetus will be to get him to the majors as soon as possible. They are not going to want to keep him in the minors.
Aba, on this board. However, as I’ve said, I didn’t believe any of the rumors that Holliday wanted to be a Yankee…I had no idea before tonight how he felt about St. Louis. In any case, I hope the Yanks resolve their LF situation and it’s not him.
CB:
How much do you believe it will take to get Chapman? I guess we know it’s more than $15.5M….but how much more?
Betsy, the Yankees aren’t going to help set the market for Holliday. They are going to wait until everyone bids their max and then they will decide whether they want to lay a trump card or not.
Nobody knows what Holliday wants to do but he like most players will probably sign with whoever pays him the most money.
Can we ban the word “Lowe” from this blog?
I’d rather Aceves pitch.
Betsy,
You still have no idea about how he feels about St. Louis.
Frank,
I really have no idea. It really depends on whether 2-3 teams all decide to go all in on him and turn this into a bidding war.
I don’t think that will happen. I don’t think it will go past $25M but who knows.
There’s a lot of risk with him and he’s not that close to the majors.
cb,
i have a question about the red sox burning players on the way out. do the agents ever discuss it with the player? take lowell for example. the yankees, if i remember correctly, wanted him to play 1st. he took less money and years to get his position with the red sox.
i am not sure who his agent is, but i gotta believe that the next time a free agent is talking to the sox player mistreatment has to come up.
I don’t think the Yankees are going to bid on Chapman; the consider him a project and I’d be shocked if they spent millions on a project. The Sox would, not the Yankees. Also, what’s this about the guy refusing to work out for them?
Blake, around here, people made it sound like Holliday really wanted to be a Yankees. That’s not the case – and I was always skeptical of it. I don’t want the guy anymore, so I hope he signs with the Cards.
Thrill, and I have no idea what you are talking about. You’re the one who said he loves St. Louis and prefers the Cardinals……so let him go back there. I don’t like Melky as the LF, but we’ll find someone else.
Betsy,
do you think anything is ever going to happen?
“around here, people made it sound like Holliday really wanted to be a Yankees. That’s not the case – and I was always skeptical of it. I don’t want the guy anymore, so I hope he signs with the Cards.”
How exactly do you know thats not the case, because he said all things being equal he would stay in St. Louis. Matsui said the same thing about the Yankees, do you think the Angels aren’t happy they got him. I think Holliday would be happy with the Cardinals or Yankees either one and it will just come down to who wants him more not the other way around.
No Betsy,
I’m the original Phil and I’m not the one who was on here saying he liked St. Louis. All I’ve heard since FA opened was that he wants to be a Yankee.
Thrill, I have no idea what you are talking about…
kd,
It was the Phillies who made the offer Lowell turned down – it was a 4 year 48M, IIRC. The Sox would only go to 3 years /36M.
Lowell turned down a huge amount of money – and in doing so he had to know that given his age and injury history he might not get it back.
As such, I don’t know what his agent said to him about the poor treatment – I’d guess that was a very distant thought at the time given the money issue.
As a whole, people tend to discount future events so when a player signs a contract they generally aren’t thinking about what will happen as their run out of town.
But on the whole, the Sox ability to get these hometown discounts is going to come to an end.
Knocking a respected guy like Lowell isn’t going to help them.
Betsy, isn’t it the same then regarding Holliday loving St. Louis? A rumor? I’ve been doing a number of searches and the only thing close to Holliday wanting to stay in St. Louis are other people saying it for him.
Maybe there is a quote out there from him but if there is its very well hidden.
Oh, I got confused,lol…….ok, now I know who’s who.
Are you referring to Chapman? Would it be better if I said I thought the Yankees would bid on him? Not really – my prediction means absolutely nothing.
This is sort of a repost, but after extensive analysis of the 29 other teams in MLB (scroll down a little for the Damon discussion, it’s in two parts), I really don’t see anywhere else for him to land. I think the Yankees make a face-saving frontloaded 2/$17M offer and he takes it. Damon gets to talk about how much he wanted to stay here, he was willing to take less, yadda yadda yadda, and the Yanks get a solid option for LF/DH that plays particularly well in their home park. It makes too much sense not to happen, especially if you take a look at my blog and check out his other options (hint: not much). I’m happy; I like Nick Johnson, but having Damon back is insurance we definitely can use. Lock up Sheets and Duchscherer and call it an offseason.
“I don’t think the Yankees are going to bid on Chapman; ”
?
Really? Things aren’t so bad.
What exactly have the Boston front office been saying about Lowell?
Looks like the Saints might be going down tonight.
Why wouldn’t they take on Chapman as a project? The guy has an electric arm and new agents that will nip the maturity issues in the bud with a quickness.
Blake, I have no idea if or when Holliday said that “all things being equal” comment……..If he said it, it doesn’t bother me. We have disagreed on this for days- I still don’t think the Yankees have any interest in him (first, because he’s not a great player and second, it’s too much $$$ and too many years). I was for signing him for a few days….maybe even up until today. However, enough with the long-term, big $$$ deals.
Hmm. The Yanks are the ones who signed El Duque, signed Matsui, signed Conteras, signed Montero and beat the snot out of the Sox in IFA every year are less likely to sign Chapman than the Sox are? Really?
If the bid on Chapman is 20-30 million then I just don’t see them letting that arm get away. Thats a fairly low risk for the Yankees for such a potentially high reward. If the bidding gets higher than that then I don’t know.
cb,
thanks. it simply can’t continue. in my industry, albeit a lot less lucrative than professional baseball, we are very careful what we say about people on the way in and on the way out. you never know what might come back at you.
that being said, i’ve never left $10,000 on the. there’s no way on earth i’d leave $12 mill!
Just for you, steveoh:
“Meanwhile, the Braves’ current priority is attempting to trade starting pitcher Derek Lowe to free up payroll. The Los Angeles Angels and possibly New York Yankees have emerged as potential trade partners.”
http://www.ajc.com/sports/atla.....46798.html
CB, that wasn’t meant to be a negative comment…..as I said, predictions mean nothing. If I said, I think the Yanks will bid $30 million on him, it would mean the same thing. I admit, I’m very skeptical about the Yankees and their spending habits now…..
ok betsy, thats fine.
They aren’t going to sign more than one of the rehabbing pitchers. And Damon is gone.
I really don’t want Lowe, he makes way too much money for the quality of pitcher he is now.
Pokey, maybe they would. There will be a lot of suitors for him, that’s for sure.
Aba, yes……..that’s true. In any case, I changed my mind on him……..
I would prefer they not sign any rehabbing pitchers. Either give Phil and Joba a chance or trade for something healthy and good.
according to mlbtradrumors, the lowell trade is off. they have a lot of work to do to mend that hurt
Unless the Braves pay almost all of Lowe’s salary and expect a bag of balls in return, the Yankees aren’t going to be too interested.
Gross, Derek Lowe? That’s a ridiculous rumor – why would the Yankees want a guy they spurned last year, who is coming off a terrible year in the NL? Bogus.
I don’t mind signing a rehab guy as long as it’s only for 1 year or not a huge amount of money. Escobar is another name that keeps getting thrown around.
Escobar’s a shoulder and says he only wants to pitch out of the pen this year.
Angels were offering Juan Rivera for Lowe and Atlanta was eating 10 million of the annual……That would be a good deal, however the Angels would go after Bay or maybe even Holliday…..It’s been a dead topic out here for a few days…..
Angels wouldn’t negotiate with Boras, so probably Bay.
If you take a chance on Sheets, if he stays healthy you’ve easily got the best rotation in baseball, especially for the playoffs.
If you’re going to go with a rehab guy then I think you go with the one who is the best at 100%. Thats Sheets.
I wonder how much Escobar would cost to be a pen guy. Adding him into the mix would sure shore up the middle inning relief since it seems as if Robertson & Marte are the 8th inning combo.
If he stays healthy. He hadn’t pitched a full season in years. If you stick with Phil and Joba and they start pitching to projections, you’d still probably have the best 4 man rotation.
If the Cards allocate so much of their payroll to Holliday and Pujols, they probably can’t be that good mid- to long-term.
Get a pitcher (no to D. Lowe)
Leave Melky in LF. He can field,throw and hit. He is not injury prone and is not old.
No to Holliday
Rich, I left you a message on my blog.
I think with the innings limit you’ll see Phil start out the season in either the ML or AAA rotation, then transition into super-setup man in late August or so.
Rich, I think thats the question that decides where Holliday ends up. How high can the Cards go on Holliday and still re-sign Pujols? If their stopping point is less than the Yankee’s comfort zone then he may be a Yankee next year. If they decide they need him at all costs though then the Yankees probably won’t chase them up the payscale.
Sheets did go 198 in 2008, which is pretty close to a full season.
Just piggy back Aceves on Young Master Hughes’ starts if Sheets is a non option…..Although I do think he’ll be the best signing this offseason….He’s waiting for the spotlight to be soley on him when he auditions next month…..Then the bidding begins……Has the club comeout and stated how many innings they are allowing him to toss this season ????
“I think with the innings limit you’ll see Phil start out the season in either the ML or AAA rotation, then transition into super-setup man in late August or so.”
I hope not, Phil gets nothing out of mowing down minor league hitters. He is going to be a starter so he needs to start learning to get big league hitters out as a starter. He’s not 19 anymore. Let him start the year as the #5 and then you can skip starts later in the year to limit his innings.
Not Aceves, Pat!
I think they have fairly hope hopes for Gaudin.
Sheets has to get real about guaranteed money.
“Sheets did go 198 in 2008, which is pretty close to a full season.”
He also threw 5 CG’s and 3 shutouts that year.
Blake, Phil has to be in the rotation if the club is looking at him long term…..April has many open dates, and just let him go and make 27-28 starts….
It’ll never happen, but I would consider signing Pedro Martinez. He pitched well for the Phillies last year during a short major league stint. He pitched well against the Yanks in Game 2 of the WS. He pitched badly in Game 6, but I read somewhere that he sick that day. Among starting pitchers, he’s the all-time leader in ERA+.
blake,
I think he needs to be in the ML rotation, but if he isn’t I’d rather have him in AAA ready to go when/if something happens. I think if there is only one spot in the rotation, Joba needs to be the one going to SWB, mainly so we can find out if he really came into the season in shape and got his head on straight.
Pat -
I gotta figure Hughes’s limit this year is about the same as what Joba had last year.
Pat M,
I agree, its time for him to start building on something as a starter.
It was the Godzilla Flu.
Blake-
At this point it is starting to matter to me less and less if Holliday signs or not.
The thing has been drawn out way to long for my personal taste.
I wish him luck in whatever he ultimately decides but I have to say if he really is comparing two offers his analytic powers dont seem to match his athletic prowess.
myabe it’s time for the Yankees to move on too, of course that is only my opinion.
This guy is making it seem like he is trying to decide how to split the atom, or cut the world’s most perfect diamond.
he is only going to sign a baseball contract that either is going to make him rich, or just slightly richer.
if it is mainly about the money and the Cards have the highest bid then great just go there.
If ours is then take ours .
This cat and mouse crap, if that’s what it is, for me is just
bullcrap.
Pedro would never go to the Yankees, and I don’t think he’d make it through the press conference before Jorge went all Juan Marichal on him.
His best bet is to do what he did this year, which is wait around until July then sign.
Pokey,
I’m not really a “Joba the starter” believer but thats a separate topic that neither of us probably wants to get into.
I just feel like Hughes has done all he can do at the Minor League level and that he needs to learn to get big league hitters out. He is going to struggle at times but thats why he will be in the #5 spot. He has to given the opportunity to figure things out or he never will.
December 19th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
This is sort of a repost, but after extensive analysis of the 29 other teams in MLB (scroll down a little for the Damon discussion, it’s in two parts), I really don’t see anywhere else for him to land. I think the Yankees make a face-saving frontloaded 2/$17M offer and he takes it. Damon gets to talk about how much he wanted to stay here, he was willing to take less, yadda yadda yadda, and the Yanks get a solid option for LF/DH that plays particularly well in their home park. It makes too much sense not to happen, especially if you take a look at my blog and check out his other options (hint: not much). I’m happy; I like Nick Johnson, but having Damon back is insurance we definitely can use. Lock up Sheets and Duchscherer and call it an offseason.
—————————
What motivation would the Yankees have to pay that much for him, when as you said they already have Nick Johnson?
Rich in NJ….What I was proposing is have Phil make his starts with a limit of let’s say 80 pitches to start the season and gradually build up from there…..And just have Aceves ready to come in and carry the baton….Inning counts are one think, pitch counts are another….
blake,
We’ll save the Joba debate for another time. I agree that Phil now has to make that transition. Which is why Coney’s idea to stick him in the pen I think will pay big dividends this season. After being rushed up way too fast, the injuries and the shellings, it seemed like he lost his mojo. I really think the move to the pen helped him get some of that back, even if he did struggle in the postseason.
Pat M I think the yankees use pitch counts more than innings, inning counts are just for the media because its easier to understand. I guess we will see how hard they ride him if he makes it to the rotation
Cashman said Joba and Hughes will compete for a rotation spot and the loser will go to the pen.
MTU, patience isn’t one of your strengths is it. I personally don’t care if the Yankees wait until the last day of February to makes their moves as long as they are the right ones. I don’t think Holliday is playing cat and mouse, I think he’s just waiting like the rest of us.
http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....-1.1662718
“Damon has never been accused of being anything but a team player, but Cashman has said before – while speaking in general terms – that he’s not wild about the concept of veteran players coming back to their most recent clubhouse after absorbing a pay cut”
It’s over.
COWBOYS END SAINTS PERFECT SEASON RUN 24-17..Great game by Romo
Aceves is a fly ball pitcher with mediocre stuff.
Be careful counting on him….
“Cashman said Joba and Hughes will compete for a rotation spot and the loser will go to the pen.”
He clarified that comment with Kay on Friday. That would only be the case if he acquired a starter that provides certainty.
The last thing they need to do is pull a Joba with him. If he’s going to start, it needs to be on a regular pitch/inning count. Jerking him around in short starts isn’t going to help. In fact, knowing you have only that many pitches probably puts more pressure on you.
Cashman said that Phil and Joba would only compete for one spot if they got another starter.
What’s so terrible about Phil spending some more time in the BP this year ?
Wasn’t it Cone who said that pitchers can transition back and forth, and that it actually can be beneficial, or least not harmful ?
If Phil, or Joba, but moreso with Phil would go to the pen couldn’t they work on stuff during side sessions, and then stretch him out at some point to take spot starts, or replace anyone who might get injured or need a rest ?
I just dont agree that it will be so awful for Phil.
Remember, by pitching standards, Both Phil and Joba are still quite young.
Ok, Betsy. Flame away !
Pat M
I know. I would prefer another pitcher to fill the role of the shadow.
MTU:
If your agent has been telling you he is going to get you ‘close to tex’ money for the last year and all you’ve seen so far is 5/85 wouldn’t you be quite disappointed, or at the very least have had very high expectations?
Sending one or the other to the pen is a terrible idea. Both way too young with not a lot of innings under their belts to give up on them starting just yet.
I think it depends on how the other arms in the pen look in the Spring. If there is an injury to Robertson or someone, or guys like Melancon/Dunn still look overmatched, they may decide to put the loser of the competition in the pen. It would make little sense to put one of our primetime arms in the minors if we need them at the ML level, even if it is the pen.
On the otherhand, if the relievers look decent, they might decide to stash away the loser of the competition in AAA and make him the first guy to come up if someone gets hurt. Sheets/Duchester are guys with big injury risks, so it is no lock they hold up.
“What’s so terrible about Phil spending some more time in the BP this year ?”
Well one reason is because he’s not developing his secondary pitches which he needs as a starter. Last year in the pen it was mainly fastballs. Thats fine to a few hitters but won’t cut it as a starter. Another thing is that he’s not building stamina and confidence that he can get hitters out starting.
I just think that he’s 23 now and its time to stop messing around with him.
MTU:
What I am trying to say is that you can’t really speculate, or truly appreciate the dynamics of what is really going on behind closed doors by what you read in the media.
Holliday has been on an emotional roller coaster. He went from extremely excited to anxious to frustrated very quickly. I think he is taking a breather right now and i can’t say that I don’t blame him.
MTU
“What’s so terrible about Phil spending some more time in the BP this year ?”
Because he is one of their five best starters. Just a few years ago, he was rated higher than Lester, even though Lester is two years older, in large part because of his command. Then injuries intervened. But his time in the pen should have given him the confidence that he can dominate ML hitters. I expect him to have a big year.
If he goes to the pen, he needs to stay there. That stretching out for later stuff does nothing but ruin arms. You’re holding back his development though if you cut back his innings and use of secondary pitches by sending him there.
Cone was saying that taking a young starter and getting his feet wet by putting them in the pen can be beneficial before transitioning them to being a ML starter. What you’re proposing is different.
Duchester gives you options— you can use him as a starter or in the pen. So if the kids both look good in ST, you can move Dutch to the pen.
If you sign Sheets, he is in the rotation as long as he is healthy. Even if the kids light it up in ST, Sheets is going to be in the rotation.
Which is why I would think Cash would lean more towards Dutch, even though Sheets is by far the more established pitcher.
Terry from NH December 19th, 2009 at 11:34 pm
COWBOYS END SAINTS PERFECT SEASON RUN 24-17..Great game by Romo
_______________
Wow. How could this be? All I heard during this week was how it would be the usual Cowboys in December losing. I wish I could have seen the game, even though I don’t root for any team, I enjoy watching competitive football games. This must have been fun to watch.
As Boone this one to deep left! This might send the Yankees to the World Series! Boone a hero in game 7!
As Boone sends***
Rich in NJ….Who else do they really have that isn’t in the bullpen rotation, Gaudin ????
Blake-
maybe not but there is no need to get personal about it.
I thought you and I had a good dialogue going here I was merely expressing my opinion. If the opinion is not a good one then just say so and please leave it at that.
We really dont know each other but I always try to be polite on here.Though like everyone I can be wrong in my opinions.
Never claimed different.
If you dont want me to respond to your posts anymore thats fine with me too. just let me know, or just skip them.
At this moment you and I seem to disagree about the level of patience that should be required to complete the deal that’s the way i see it, and that is all i see.
My personality or yours should not enter into the discussion.
And by the way, are you a professional psychologist or something.
Whew.
“If your agent has been telling you he is going to get you ‘close to tex’ money for the last year and all you’ve seen so far is 5/85 wouldn’t you be quite disappointed, or at the very least have had very high expectations?”
Especially when your agent probably told you to turn down the offer the Rockies made you for 4yrs/ 82M not so long ago.
It is remarkable how badly the economics of this are working out for Holliday.
He is going to get paid for 5 years what he was offerred for 4 years in Colorado – a place he reportedly liked.
That alone is a huge financial hit.
That the $150M+ offer never materialized cannot be going over well.
Heyman earlier this week wrote that the Holliday negotiations are something of a mystery. And I dont’ think it’s a conicidence that Heyman has had almost nothing to post about on Holliday this off season.
It’s tough to get Teix money in this economy if the (recession proof) Yankees don’t have a pressing need.
Pat M
Yes, Gaudin.
MTU, I was joking really. Didn’t mean anything by it. Its hard to convey what you mean when the person can’t hear the tone that you say things in. Sorry if you misunderstood.
Holliday is going to be an absolute bargain for someone.
MTU, I’m surprised. We do not know yet if they Yankees have decided how high/long they might go on Holliday… we do not know if his market value has settled yet… I doubt a formal offer has been made yet.
Holliday surely doesn’t have all the facts yet either.
Patience.
The Holliday season doesn’t end tomorrow. Or even on Friday.
MTU….It’s been said over and over again, the Yankees need a leftfielder who can hit in the 5 hole…..Is there such a player available ?????
Don’t forget we are bringing Sergio Mitre back as well. He could play a huge roll for us….
As far as Mitre and Gaudin are concerned, I think Gaudin competes for a rotation spot in ST but ends up as the long man in the pen, while Mitre becomes the 2 or 3 guy in SWB behind Aceves.
CB:
So the question I would ask Holliday right now is, “What’s more important, your tentative xmas deadline and a deal or hopes that your agent can deliver on his words after the holidays?”
I believe Mitre is out of options. Can’t send him to Scranton.
If damon really wants to come back to the Yankees, than he should call Cash up personally and tell him he wants to return and not to worry the paycut won’t effect his play.
Lost-
if that is the case then maybe he needs a new agent.
I dont have a lot of sympathy for a guy who might be forced to choose between 80 Mill, or say 90 Mill.
Wanna know why ?
because either way he will be rich, and is gonna be set for life.
If it’s just about the money fine. Just take the highest offer. No sweat off my brow.
gettin time to move with this at least for me.
Sign Sheets. Forget holliday. Is becoming my new motto (almost).
I’m not cash. i dont have to wait to express how i feel.
best of luck to matt in whatever he chooses. Just make a decision kid. You cant lose either way.
Thanks for all your posting I appreciate it. best of luck to Matt, more importantly best of luck to the Yankees.
But is he really going to refuse an assignment or get picked up by somebody else?
Lost,
This is going to drag out, I’d guess. I wouldn’t be surprised after all of this if he doesn’t have Scott take this into January.
And I’d guess that’s Boras’s strong desire as well.
Holliday might be the most high profile client boras hasn’t delivered for in years.
Last year that strategy worked for Manny. They might try it again.
It’ll be tough though – Bay still hasn’t signed and there is a flood of hitting available.
Holliday has some choices to make.
Know what my new mantra is?
“Damon is gone. Get. Over. It.”
Seems the horse is out of the barn and roaming freely. Maybe tomorrow he’ll come back for some hay.
*shrugs
night all.
Pat-
that would be Holliday wouldn’t it. But he seems to be caught in some paralell universe right now.I wish him luck getting out of it.
Blake-
no problem. we’re good. as long as i know you weren’t getting personal.
I still think he’ll be a Yank by Christmas.
Funny thing is Mitre and Gaudin both had some starts where they looked good.
Personally, I would see what Joba can do this season in the rotation. A high 3 ERA for a number 4 pitcher is competitive. Hughes covering the number 5 slot with Gaudin and Mitre as back up if he can’t handle starting.
Joba is off the innings limitations, and Hughes is not supposed to be on as restrictive a limit as Joba had been on.
Holliday has to be feeling a bit perplexed by the current offerings to him, though he can’t be blind to what has been happening in the economy. His not accepting the Rockies offer probably made sense for the time, but with how things have changed he would have to adjust his expectations.
There was never a chance that the Cards were ever going to go as high as Teixeira’s contract. As it is, the salary expectations of Pujols and Holliday (as his offer stands now) would account for 40% of the club salary. That is a huge amount for them to spend on two players, and could cripple them.
MTU, I wasn’t getting personal. Now lets go get some rope and round up Lost’s horse.
Boras hasn’t delivered jack in the last few years except with Tex. A-Rod had to lock him out of the room just to get what was essentially his old contract back, Manny was a disaster and now Damon and Holliday are both looking like chumps because of how they’ve allowed him to grossly over-value their market.
Bring Johnny Back
http://www.facebook.com/group......amp;ref=mf
Does Holliday have a Christmas deadline?
I mean, not a deadline, but did he indicate that he wanted to sign by Christmas?
Over the next 5 years Holliday could very well generate $130-140M of value through his play on the field.
And his best offer right now for those next 5 years is 85M.
So he could be generating 160% more value than he’s being paid.
“A-Rod had to lock him out of the room just to get what was essentially his old contract back”
Yeah, right. Yet somehow when Alex needed hip surgery, a year and a half later Boras was integrally involved in the decision making.
I think Alex’s return to the Yankees was orchestrated by Boras.
Blake-
I’d be glad to help if i just knew what the hell Lost meant sometimes with his little riddles.
But if you just want to go rope some ponnies I am cool with that !
CB, do you think that some of the difficulties that Boras’s clients seem to be experiencing has to do with the fact that so many clubs don’t like dealing with him? Could it be that some of the great moves he has made in the past have actually hurt him in the present?
“Over the next 5 years Holliday could very well generate $130-140M of value through his play on the field.”
Which is why Boras will want an opt out in any deal.
Abdababdaserse, DeMarcus Ware who some of us thought was paralyzed on the field for a few moments had 2 sacks and 2 forced fumbles and sacked Brees to end the game with a fumble.. Great game on NFL network
The “Damon wouldn’t be happy with a paycut” is all about Cash covering his hindquarters. Andy took a paycut last year and I think that turned out okay. Bernie and Tino took paycuts back in the day and the train kept a rollin’.
The way I see it, Cash almot has to sign Holliday now, which to me is a mistake. Otherwise we’ve swapped Damon and Matsui for Granderson and Johnson (making us a weaker team) and lost Ajax, Kennedy and Coke in the bargain.
Why couldn’t we have moved some combination of those three, Joba and Romine for Hallyday and then resigned the WS MVP and the 2-hitter who’s clutch atbat and clever baserunning saved the season, for short term deals?
If we had, wouldn’t we have a much, much better team now?
Andy is sui generis among MLB players.
“Over the next 5 years Holliday could very well generate $130-140M of value through his play on the field.
And his best offer right now for those next 5 years is 85M.
So he could be generating 160% more value than he’s being paid.”
This is why I think anything under 100 million and maybe even 120 million for him is a bargain and the Yankees should strongly consider it.
Just like in the Damon and Matsui issues this off season, timing is everything.
“This is why I think anything under 100 million and maybe even 120 million for him is a bargain and the Yankees should strongly consider it.”
Why should they? No other team will offer anything close to that.
MTU, i have no idea but sounds like its a pretty important horse.
Rich, I know they won’t. Thats what I’m saying, if his price stays in the range it is currently in then they should sign him.
CB/Lost:
My question then is, if your Holliday, do you explore the possibility of say a 2 year deal and put yourself back on the market while you’re still 32 and in your prime in what will hopefully be a better economy or do you still lock in the security of a 5 year deal even if it’s lower than you expected?
CB-
I am slowly beginning to lose any respect i had for Boras.
he seems to be misjudging things this year, and because of it he is not doing right by his some of his clients.
He should not be promising things he has no chance of delivering.
I try to be a man of my word. It’s essential as far as i am concerned. In his role surely he must be sensitive to that.
If he raised Matt’s expectations, wether his intentions were good or not, but misjudges the market how has he helped Holliday rather than hurting him.
At the very least ,if that were the case, he would owe his client a big apology.
and in the worst case if he had been a bit incompetent probably more.
Holliday might be better served with a new agent if this has any ring of truth to it.
This whole Lowell thing has been confusing from the start.
1) He one of the Sox’s most clutch hitters, and they want to pay him $9 million to play for another team. How badly can you want a free roster spot? I never want to see Lowell at the plate in a clutch situation.
2) How could they possiby not know he needs surgery? How does Lowell not tell them? How has he not had surgery in the past 2 months?
It’s really mind-blowing.
“A-Rod had to lock him out of the room just to get what was essentially his old contract back, Manny was a disaster ”
Not true at all.
Boras negotiated A-Rod’s new deal. A deal for 315 million. A deal that will pay A-Rod 31 million a season when he’s in his 40’s.
Manny got a two year deal for 45 million as a 37 year old. Hardly a disaster.
I think he would rather go ahead and sign a 5 year deal but have an opt out option after the 2nd year in case the economy improves. That way he is protected against the chance he gets hurt or heaven forbid the economy gets worse.
“do you think that some of the difficulties that Boras’s clients seem to be experiencing has to do with the fact that so many clubs don’t like dealing with him?”
I don’t think so, though I could be wrong. It is quite remarkable that the Red Sox, Angels, Mets and yankees all could use a LF and none has gotten involved with Holliday. The angels and Sox may have been turned off by Boras. The mets seem to not want to bother with the premium player. The yankees are talking up the budget.
I think overall Boras’s gambits have worn off and he’s been hurt by the way the Yankees and Red Sox are now run. Besides Hanks bailing him out on Alex, Boras hasn’t been able to run up the yankees recently. Same with the red sox.
The whole gambit of the “mystery” team hasn’t worked nearly as well as it seems to have in the past because teams are much more risk averse given how badly so many of those deals have turned out e.g. Soriano and of course the economy.
With Holliday, I do think his home – road splits in Colorado and his short stint in Oakland really killed his value – disproportionately so.
One of the areas where Boras didn’t do Holliday any favors was in not stopping the trade to Oakland. Going into your free agent year and trasitioning from a huge hitter friendly environment to a horrible hitting environment in a new league is just not a good situation to be in.
Yanks have a big hole that they’d acknowledged in left and they have not done anything to fill it. In fact this week alone they got rid of their old LF, and the old LF before him. Cash told MKay that he hoped to get things done during MK’s two week vacation. How many things are on his to do list? I think we’re getting the best LF on the market for the next few years.
Just for you, steveoh:
“Meanwhile, the Braves’ current priority is attempting to trade starting pitcher Derek Lowe to free up payroll. The Los Angeles Angels and possibly New York Yankees have emerged as potential trade partners.”
Perfext- Lowe to Angels… Swisher to braves… Abreu to Yanks
“My question then is, if your Holliday, do you explore the possibility of say a 2 year deal and put yourself back on the market while you’re still 32 and in your prime in what will hopefully be a better economy or do you still lock in the security of a 5 year deal even if it’s lower than you expected?”
I think the problem for Holliday there is that he’s coming up to free agency when he’s 30 and not 28.
It’s a real difficult thing to bet you’ll be more valuable when you’re 32 than at 30.
And it’s difficult to bet on what the economy will look like at the same time.
A-Rod had to get Warren Freakin’ Buffett to call Hal and open lines of communication. Boras may have been in on the hip discussions, but he wasn’t anywhere near the contract talks.
Terry… thanks. I think the NFL really needs to think about how to get their network to more consumers. They play on nights where there aren’t other football games going on, so they would have a big volume of viewers looking for their football fix.
Ware doing that is pretty incredible.
CB, thats a really good point about Boras allowing Holliday to go to Oakland. If that had never happened then Holliday’s value would be much higher I suspect.
Boras knew that Hank was a rookie— and played him like one.
Cashman would have never fallen for the trap. Yeah… A-Rod came crawling back and had to sing for his supper… to the tune of $315 million.
That Arod contract is just ridiculous. They bid against themselves for a great deal of that money.
“Meanwhile, the Braves’ current priority is attempting to trade starting pitcher Derek Lowe to free up payroll. The Los Angeles Angels and possibly New York Yankees have emerged as potential trade partners.”
I call bs.
Manny was a disaster from a PR point of view. Between getting him to act like a spoiled brat to get dealt out of Boston to the way too drawn out Dodger contract, they both lost a lot of face around the league and with fans.
Hal said they still had work to do before signing NJ.
Now that NJ is signed, they are probably done.
CENTRAL CT YANKEE
December 20th, 2009 at 12:02 am
Bring Johnny Back
http://www.facebook.com/group&.....amp;ref=mf
*************
Yeah, I just totally joined this group
The Yankees aren’t done.
Nowhere near done. They still have a lot of issues to address…and they will.
I am off to bed. I’d like to thank everyone who sent warm birthday wishes. Not my most exciting birthday ever, but we made it work
Good night Yankee people!
I don’t fault either Holliday or Boras for rejecting the Rockies offer because the economy didn’t look like it would tank as it did.
The stock market was looking good at that time, and unemployment was at 5% or so.
I don’t think the Red Sox or Angels would hesitate to work with Boras for the right players. This year the RS have a number of holes in their roster and players they are looking to get rid of while paying their salary. The Yankees have taken a different approach to FA markets, though they will play big for the right player.
This year Holliday just ended up with a bad timing issue. The Yankees have payroll high and while there is some need, it isn’t a driving need. The Red Sox are at a high payroll as well. The Angels don’t really need a LF, and they need a starter to help in the top of the rotation.
That puts the Cards as the team with the greater desire to sign Holliday, and it stretches their financial issues with this offer, let alone going higher.
“Manny was a disaster from a PR point of view. Between getting him to act like a spoiled brat to get dealt out of Boston to the way too drawn out Dodger contract, they both lost a lot of face around the league and with fans.”
From a PR standpoint? I think some of the best players still want Boras as their agent, ie Strasburg, and Bryce Harper.
When the best players still want you as their agent I would say from a PR standpoint he’s doing quite well.
Manny still got what he wanted in the end. He got out of Boston and got his money.
Boras represents the players. Who cares what fans think about him?
MTU, no flaming, lol- Pokey, Pat M and Blake have said it better than I could. He can’t use his pitches in the pen – only the FB and curve. I hated the idea of Phil in the pen last year and I despise it even more now. He has got to start the whole year……skip his starts if necessary, which is fine. Phil needs a whole year of being able to learn to get through lineups more than once, using all his pitches, that kind of thing. I would rather see him in AAA than in the pen, that’s how strongly I feel about it. However, I would never flame, lol
It’s not like there is much out there left. Holliday is the only OF option.
As far as pitchers, Sheets and Duch are the only guys worth looking into. Don’t know if Cash wants to completely rule out both kids in the rotation (which would happen if we sign Sheets, only one would have a chance to be in the rotation), but wants a good matured competition to motivate guys and a guy for insurance… which will probably lead them to Duchester.
And I doubt Cash is going to sign older bench players like DeRosa to multi-year deals. Unless Cash has some surprise trade out of nowhere, you can pretty much see where we are going, if we add anyone at all. It is set up for them to add Holliday, if they decide to.
blake December 20th, 2009 at 12:23 am
That Arod contract is just ridiculous. They bid against themselves for a great deal of that money.
______
At that time Alex was thought to be clean, that made him a big legacy player. In hind sight, yes it was not a good deal for the Yankees.
Lost, if he loves St. Louis, what’s the problem? He’s got the team he loves bidding for him…….
Holliday is frustrated at $17 million a year?
Now that Erica’s gone, how soon does that Facebook group fold up after we sign Holliday?
Actually, I wonder if Bay being a cheaper, though lesser option, has Holliday’s offer lower than it could be. With other players available still it keeps the demand lower.
The prices being asked for is another issue. By holding off his price might rise a bit once Bay signs. The larger market teams haven’t moved in on bidding openly for him either.
Boras is still doing well for himself, despite Damon. He can’t get them all good deals.
He did get Teixieria $180 million and got 3 big market teams (NYY/BOS/LAA) bidding upwards of $150 mil for him.
He got the SF Giants to give Zito $130 million. He got 4 years/$60 million for a 37 yr old Lowe. He got the Mets to bid against themselves and give Perez $30 million. He got the Yanks to bid against themselves for A-Rod. He got the Dodgers to bid against themselves for Manny last year and got the Dodgers to agree to HIS terms (the ‘10 player option).
I wouldn’t shed a tear for Boras.
Is Holliday expecting the Cards offer to increase ? If so, then he should by all means wait…..If not, I don’t see what choice he has. There are no other teams involved……
Betsy-
“Holliday is frustrated at $17 million a year?”
I couldn’t agree with you more. The guy gets to choose wether he is gonna be mr. rich, or mr. slightly richer.
What a tough choice. I pity him.
I should be so lucky. It would take a mega bucks win though.
Why should Holliday rush into taking STL’s offer?
By all accounts, it isn’t going anywhere. He has that as a fallback option anyway. Why not see if some team gets desperate?
Remember guys, the current labor agreement is expiring after the 2011 season I believe…..Somethings are going to change, so you if someone looks good it could be the time to make the move….Cashamn has built the organization on the foundation of pitching and catching, that’s the minor league’s strength…If you need a position player you make a run at buying him..If not then make a trade…..Matt Holliday is a very fine baseball player,as he hits all 5 skill levels at average and above…..HOF, no however he locks down leftfield and will be a monster in the 5 hole…..I don’t care what many here feel about Nick Johnson’s arrival, unless Cashman fixes the # 5 hole in the order & upgrades the outfield, the Johnson trade is going to haunt him & the club
It’s easy to say $17m is more than enough money when you’re making a fraction of that.
That’s his option.
But sometimes you snooze you loose. just ask Damon how he feels.
“Holliday is frustrated at $17 million a year?”
No. I’d guess he may be dissappointed that he’s being paid at only 68% of what he’s worth in likely value generated.
I think there’s been some overreaction about our “hole” in LF.
If Granderson were playing LF and we still had Melky and Gardner in CF, would people still feel the same way?
The only place we’ve “downgraded” is DH. Johnson for Matsui. But if Matsui’s knees gave out and he ended up on the DL, that wouldn’t make a difference anyway.
Our outfield has gone from Damon, Melky/Gardner, Swisher to Melky/Gardner, Granderson, Swisher. I just don’t see how LF is a problem.
Rich-
and that is exactly my point.
This guy might be just getting a little too greedy for his own good.
But hey, it’s not my life it’s his call.
the poor baby might be a bit disappointed because he wont be able to afford that extra Ferari. What a pity on him.
He has all of my sympathy. He has a really tough life.
Betsy, the point remains that while the Cardinals are the only team known to make a formal offer, the Cards were the ones to leak about it. We don’t know if there are other teams talking to Boras and keeping it quiet like the Yankees did last year with Teixeira.
The other thing is how do we know that Holliday really wants to stay in St. Louis? Because someone on here said that? I read through a lot of articles mentioning Holliday and this FA period, and the only things I found were other people who are close to Holliday said he would love to stay. Even if he said that, its not to be taken in a manner that it is an absolute. Almost every player makes comments like that and end up elsewhere.
MTU, yesterday you were convinced that Holliday was on the way. Today, not so much.
This is the way it goes with the bigger FA’s. They want to get the best deal they can. Can you really blame them for maximizing their worth during a time when its open for them? Its a small period of time for them to do so.
To date, over the course of his career Holliday has generated around $150-160M of value for the three teams he’s played for.
He’s been paid a total of around 20% of the value he generated for those three teams.
The Bay signing is going to make the picture clearer. If he signs with the Mets, that would probably end the mystery.
If he doesn’t, however, then it opens up a new door. Omar knows he absolutely cannot come up empty handed this winter. If he loses out on Bay, he really has no choice but to go for Holliday. Boras may find his “one dumb owner”, in the form of the Mets. I have no idea how dire their financial situation is. But are they really going to sell the season ticket holders on Jason Marquis being their big FA signing, coming off the year they had?
And of course, we are all in the dark in terms of the Yankees’ interest in Holliday.
There are still some variables at play, which is why Holliday, smartly, hasn’t signed yet. He didn’t get an ultimatum from the Cards… they probably are letting him take his time.
MTU
Don’t you think life is usually defined by expectations? He had a reasonable expectation of making more money. Beyond the material benefits, money is tantamount to status in the game. So by having to take less, he may feel that is status is somewhat reduced.
“I don’t care what many here feel about Nick Johnson’s arrival, unless Cashman fixes the # 5 hole in the order & upgrades the outfield, the Johnson trade is going to haunt him & the club”
Couldn’t agree more, pat.
We did win a World Series will Melky Cabrera is our starting center fielder. We could win another one with him as our starting left fielder.
Derek Jeter SS
Nick Johnson DH
Mark Teixeira 1B
Alex Rodriguez 3B
Jorge Posada C
Curtis Granderson DH
Robinson Cano 2B
Nick Swisher RF
Melky Cabrera CF
That’s still a really deep line up. Would it be better if Damon or Holliday were in LF? Yes, it obviously would be. But it’s still a deep line up.
BJK is right…there is a little bit of an over-reaction to our LF hole
“If he loses out on Bay, he really has no choice but to go for Holliday. Boras may find his “one dumb owner”, in the form of the Mets.”
I think this is probably a pretty good estimate of what Boras is thinking about right now in terms of strategy.
I would do the same.
Even if the Yankees enter the bidding, it isin’t like we’re going to past $100 million. So either way, this contract is the best Holliday is going to get. It is just a matter of which team gives it to him.
When the club breaks camp, I’ll be surprised if Nick Johnson is actually hitting 2nd, I can only imagine how many times he’s either going to get thrown out at the plate, or will be held up at 3rd…..You just have a 15.0 flat 100 yard guy hitting in the 2 spot before the heart of the order guys ( 3-4-5 ) coming to the plate….Especially in a 2 out situation…No Way
I read on the underbelly that CC was definitely going to a west coast team.
He ended up in the Canyon of Heroes.
We’ll see where Mr. Holliday winds up.
I don’t think the Mets are going to offer anyone an extremely large contract.
Lowell deal is off
http://twitter.com/GordonEdes/status/6849780554
MTU,
I think you are starting to take this Holliday thing a little too personal. Like Bowl said, he has no reason to sign yet. His only offer right now is well below his true value. He has plenty of time to sit back and wait for someone else to jump into the mix. He is not going to leave millions of dollars on the table just because he may be getting a little impatient right now. For all we know he is sitting at home right now without a care in the world, because he trusts Boras to show him the money!
I don’t see having the desire to see Holliday in pinstripes being an over reaction. As a fan you always want the best players possible.
I don’t think Holliday is critical, but with him the team is stronger. It can also allow time for the rotation to iron out how it will shape up for the bottom of the order.
If Holliday isn’t a Yankee, he isn’t. Its not like we have any influence over who the Yankees sign or let go.
I do like watching Holliday play. He plays the game hard. He was a big part of the Rockies getting to the WS, which for some reason I have no recollection of the outcome (
).
Abda-
I certaainly believe in capitalism if that is what you asking me.
Wouldn’t have it any other way.
No gripe or jealousy whatsoever in respect to Holliday getting what he thinks he deserves.
it just seems some posters have expected sympathy for him because he might now be “disappointed” that his agent has promised so far and cant seem to deliver.
he is being forced to do what most every person has to do most of their lives – to adjust to changing circumstances.
Moreover, what is he being asked to adjust to ?
He is going to be a very rich young man. Isn’t pittable.
Don’t you think we all should feel very sorry for him.
It’s those kind of sentiments that I just cant see.
let himdo as he wishes but he wont get any sympathy from me for getting rich, or less rich. That’s his problem. If it is one.
This whole thing is becoming tiresome to me Abda that’s all.
All would love to see Holliday figure it out and come to the Yankees but seems very indecisive to me.
Maybe it’s just that i have never had trouble making decisions. Apparently matt seems to.
Call me Matt I’d be glad to help.
Night all.
Stay warm.
“You just have a 15.0 flat 100 yard guy hitting in the 2 spot before the heart of the order guys ( 3-4-5 ) coming to the plate….Especially in a 2 out situation…No Way”
Pat M.,
Come on! Next year Tex and Alex will probably have 360-370 or so hits between them.
Of those 360 hits, around 80 will be Home runs. That’s around 22% of the time.
Not hard to score on a home run now matter how slow you are.
7*7, he shouldn’t rush….His waiting doesn’t affect me at all. It’s not like the season starts tomorrow – he’s got plenty of time to sign.
I’m not saying that Matt should take the $$ if he’s not happy; I have always been a players fan as opposed to an owner’s fan….I just didn’t understand why Lost said he was eager/anxious/frustrated. He probably should just take a nice vacation with his family and forget about things for awhile.
Nick is a smart baserunner despite is lack of foot speed. He gets a good read on the ball, and can go 1st to 3rd or score from 2B on a double. That’s enough.
I guess I can understand that, CB, but he’s in the same boat as a lot of players. There’s really nothing he can do except sign a short term deal and then hope for better in a few years. As you said, however, by then he’ll be 32/33 and he may not get any better offers. As I said, Holliday probably needs to just clear his mind – enjoy the holidays with his family, that sort of thing.
Did I miss the part where the Yankees made a formal offer to Matt Holliday?
How long has it been snowing???
If the Yankees do sign a question mark SP (Duch, Sheets, Bedard, etc.), does anybody see Cash & Co. getting a bit creative with the rotation?
For example, using a 6 man rotation for the season, limiting the innings for Hughes as well as the FA SP & possibly Andy down the stretch for the playoffs if we make it.
I think it’s something they definitely have to consider, especially if we get Sheets and Hughes needs to be limited.
I consider Sheets/Duch/Bedard true value lying in their ability to perform in the postseason. Thus, them being prepared for that is key, which is why possibly limiting their innings as well as for hughes, may be the best course to take.
Maybe some one can explain why this is a bad idea.
(BTW, CC and AJ would obviously go on reg. rest)
Abdababdaserser
December 20th, 2009 at 1:02 am
I don’t see having the desire to see Holliday in pinstripes being an over reaction. As a fan you always want the best players possible.
———————————————————
Of course. There’s nothing wrong with wanting Holliday in the 5 slot. That lineup would be crazy sick. Murderers’ Row 2010.
When I say overreaction, I’m referring mostly to the posters who feel that without an upgrade in left field, we are doomed to 2nd place in the AL East or worse.
There’s been plenty of posters over the past few days who have expressed those sentiments.
The Mets won’t go 5 with Bay, why would they do that with Holliday?
“How long has it been snowing???”
In NNJ, since noon, but only really sticking since like 6.
CB, Review my comment about him being on 2nd basem, & 2 outs, how many times will he be yanked for a pinch runner in that situation late in the game…..I have the upmost respect for your insights on the game…However, you look at the field from a GM’s perspective, I look at the game from the dugout or from the field…..For all his wonderful obs, he’s slow, he whiffs more than the walks, and he has a .273 batting ave….He’s too slow….Look how All-Star lineups are constructed…..You have the best players with all the best stats ( for the most part / fan voting ), but the first 2 guys are going to be guys with wheels….They’ll work very hard with Granderson to go to left when facing lefties, he’s you # 2 hitter, not Nick
Betsy – high on pie
December 20th, 2009 at 1:12 am
The Mets won’t go 5 with Bay, why would they do that with Holliday?
—————————————————
If they did, my guess is it would be for these two reasons:
1) Holliday is a year younger than Bay.
2) They think Holliday is better than Bay.
MTU, I don’t pity Holliday for the position he is in. I also don’t see the need for him to rush.
He is going to get a fat paycheck from some team. Even if it means he sits out there on the FA market after ST starts.
With Holliday not signing by now it puts the lie to his wanting to stay in St. Louis as any kind of factor.
Even with the Damon situation, he might have wanted to stay with the Yankees, but it wasn’t a high enough desire to become the priority.
Holliday working to get the best contract he can now isn’t being greedy as much as it is about him getting his worth in terms of what others with his talent can get. He likely won’t get another chance at this given his age, so his timing has affected his worth.
If the economy was at a normal level his pay would probably be a good deal higher. He will have to settle for less, but its about how much less.
He might also be looking at St. Louis and wondering how well they can compete even with Pujols if he and Pujols are taking up 40% of their payroll.
His standing deal now is less than what he turned down from the Rockies. That’s tough to come to grips with when your talent hasn’t fallen off.
It will get settled at some time. It will be on his timetable though. And it generates a lot of speculation which can be fun.
Edit: 2B on a single
BJK, if they thought Holliday was better, why play these games with Bay? I think they want Bay…..but they aren’t acting like it.
“Review my comment about him being on 2nd basem, & 2 outs, how many times will he be yanked for a pinch runner in that situation late in the game…..”
My mistake! I’m not disagreeing that Nick is far from an ideal #2 hitter.
Jeter is an ideal #2 hitter – but there’s only one of him on the team.
Johnson has real pluses and real minuses. If he stays healthy the pluses should outweigh the negatives.
BJK That over the top talk is what always happen on blogs though.
It comes from being anonymous. You can post over the top things that you would never say face to face. I think for some its venting out frustrations or putting undue expectations to situations they have no control over.
One reason that Jeter is no longer the #2 hitter is that he hit into so many DPs. I’m not sure he is ideal anymore.
Betsy – high on pie
December 20th, 2009 at 1:20 am
BJK, if they thought Holliday was better, why play these games with Bay? I think they want Bay…..but they aren’t acting like it.
—————————————————–
I think they’re targeting Bay because theoretically he’s cheaper and will cost less years than Holliday.
Betsy, despite the talk about their finances being fine, I think the Mets are feeling some pinch in their wallet. Bay is their target because he is more affordable, and his market hasn’t been on fire either.
Bay would be a nice enough addition to their club without costing them as much for the better player.
I think Bay is holding out with the hope that the Cards might sign him for more if they lose out on Holliday.
These two have some interconnection because they can both fill the same position.
CB, There’s only one of him ( Derek Jeter ) in baseball
What is NJ’s ideal position in the batting order?
Abdababdaserser
December 20th, 2009 at 1:21 am
BJK That over the top talk is what always happen on blogs though.
It comes from being anonymous. You can post over the top things that you would never say face to face. I think for some its venting out frustrations or putting undue expectations to situations they have no control over.
————————————————
We’re on the same page about that. Just posting a point of view I hadn’t seen much of on here.
http://www.newsday.com/columni.....-1.1662637
What, you thought the Mets would close out this miserable year riding high? Why should December be any different?
No, as the Mets, seemingly the highest bidders for Jason Bay, continued to wait for him to decide his future, they had to be pondering these questions:
Is our state-of-the-art ballpark working against us?
Do hitters not want to play their home games here?
They’re not acknowledging that publicly, of course. To the contrary, this past week, Omar Minaya said, “I think what we sell here, we sell the beautiful ballpark, we sell a great city.”
Privately, though? I’ll bet you an autographed Jerry Manuel lineup card that inside Citi Field, they’ve discussed this very issue.
The irony is, while the Yankees’ bigwigs were taken aback by how hitter-friendly the new Yankee Stadium was – and wound up solving the place and using it to their advantage – the Mets achieved their goal when they watched Citi Field play out its first campaign.
Management wants to build a ballclub that has pitching as its strength. Their outfielders will grow comfortable with all of those quirks, dips and valleys by osmosis, while other teams’ defenses will struggle, allowing the Mets’ hitters to pick up more gap hits. That’s the vision.
That still could happen, assuming the Mets can keep their starting pitchers and regular outfielders healthy. But no one talks about how great it is to pitch at Citi. They shake their heads about how tough it is to hit there. They agree with what David Wright told Chipper Jones, who embarrassed his buddy by making it public: “Nice park.”
Citi Field gave way to 130 homers in 2009. That ranked 11th overall in the National League (and 25th in the major leagues), not quite as unforgiving as San Diego’s PETCO Park and San Francisco’s AT&T Park (both 129), Los Angeles’ Dodger Stadium (127), Atlanta’s Turner Field (124) and St. Louis’s Busch Stadium (123). (Thanks to the Elias Sports Bureau for that data.)
Of course, those totals reflect the quality of the home team, and the Mets’ 95 homers (49 at home) put them last in baseball by far. Baseball-reference.com gave Citi Field a “Park Factor” of 98, with 100 representing a neutral ranking; that means that by those measurements, the place is only slightly pitcher-friendly.
That’s not the word on the street, though. People seem more inclined to agree with Wright.
As Newsday first reported in October, Matt Holliday doesn’t love the idea of playing his home games at Citi Field. That doesn’t mean he would spit at a mammoth offer. But it means that if he entertained comparable offers from multiple teams, he’d probably go elsewhere.
Bay? Like Holliday, he saw Citi Field for two days – the first two days, when the Red Sox played the Mets in exhibition games. Was he evaluating it in his mind, scouting it as a potential future place of employment? Or was he thinking, “They won’t go after me; Daniel Murphy will be their leftfielder for the next 15 years!” Wish I knew, but I don’t.
What I do know is that the Mets don’t appear to be an attractive place of employment right now. That’s due, of course, to their lousy 2009 and the disappointing fashion in which the two previous seasons concluded. For hitters, though, it just might be the ballpark, too.
Yes, the Mets could keep adding to their Bay offer, making it so lucrative that the Players Association pushes him to take it.
But this is the five-year anniversary of overpaying Pedro Martinez to establish credibility. Do the Mets still need to resort to that as Minaya enters his sixth year? That would be an embarrassing end to this brutal year. Not the sort of history you want advertised at Citi Field.
BJK, I hear ya! Though I have seen both the “gotta have him” and “don’t want him” and all in between on here. I think I might have a little too much time on my hands. lol.
I have a question. Assuming we don’t get Holliday, who would you rather have in LF? Melky or Gardner?
I don’t know if the above is true, but if it is, the Mets have a problem. Still, I think the major issue is that players do not want to come to the Mets…..CB (or was it SJ) talked about how players are friendly with each other and they talk…we discussed this in terms of the Yankees (how players on other teams would mention how great the Yanees clubhouse seems, etc…..). Well, the gossip about the Mets has to be pretty poor and it’s nost just that they had terrible luck with injuries. This is a franchise that fired a manager in the most disgraceful way possible, who allowed their VP to talk up another manager – practically in front of his own – who just can’t get out of their own way. More importantly, they share the town with WS team – a team that is actually run the right way, has a great new stadium and a wonderful clubhouse. How can they compete?
Aesthetically, I like Citi Field more than NYS, but functionally, it stinks.
You would have thought that the people that planned that park would have understood that chicks dig the long ball.
dee
December 20th, 2009 at 1:32 am
I have a question. Assuming we don’t get Holliday, who would you rather have in LF? Melky or Gardner?
—————————————————-
Melky’s job to lose until Gardner shows more with the bat. Gardner has value as a late inning pinch-runner/defensive replacement.
With that said, if Melky slumps and Gardner gets hot, you play the hot bat like last year.
What’s happening Yankee peoples?
Betsy, I’d say 6th or 7th…..I’d have hitting in front of Jorge…..There’s a great piece in today’s Times by Vecsey….I don’t how to copy, post, paste so you’ll need to pull it up…….Especially for all those you were quoting Branch Rickey……..CB, There is nobody here at the LoHud who even comes close to you in the numbers aspect of the game….I’m around alot of baseball lifers here in Orange County, and they cannot compare to what you bring to the game…..Sometimes we just see things differently…
That was a dumb commercial, lol – I hate that line “chicks dig the long ball”. It’s just icky……. I love new YS and it’s a lot easier to get to than the old YS. I can just go to Penn Station and take the subway, right to the doors of the stadium.
m, are you surving the blizzard ????????
Pat M,
How goes the partying? Did you hear that the Lakers are close to locking up Gasol & Bryant?
Pat M, we’re all rooting for the same thing. If it’s obvious in ST that there is a problem with Nick going 1st to 3rd or scoring on a double, I’m sure Joe will consider an adjustment. He made a radical shift with switching Damon and Jeter……..I should ask my brother (who lives in Florida) what he saw in NJ and if he any issues running the bases. Maybe I’ll call him tomorrow….
Yes, Pat. Brrr..shiver..
It’s going to end up being about 12-18 inches, but with the snow expected to stop by mid-morning, I don’t think it will be a big deal. The snowplows will clear things up nicely………Of course, the real problem is the ice; as long as the temperatures remain below freezing, that ice won’t melt. That’s what scares me about driving on it. A few years ago, I slipped on ice on my driveway and my head hit the iced driveway and snapped back up (like a rubber ball). Man, I was sore for a few days, but very lucky that it wasn’t worse…..
m, a few college coeds after consuming too many Washigton Apple shots, decided to go skinny dipping in the pool…..The Christmas party is now across the street at my neighbors house……Lakers need to win 65 games for me….
Betsy,
Call him NOW. It’s not like it’s late or anything.
College Coeds? Are you sure you’re not Pete C?
Betsy, I miss the Snow on Chrsitmas Eve and Christmas Day…..But that’s it…..
“– I hate that line “chicks dig the long ball”. It’s just icky……”
Maybe you’re reading too much into it, Betsy!!!!!!!
m, it’s the annual neighbor hood Christmas Party that attracts about 100-125 people……It’ll go on till the wee hours….That’s why now a days I’ll start the gig at my house and then it moves on …I squezzed over 100 Oranges off my tree today for Screwdrivers…..I’ll have the scent of Citrus here untill next week
“..There’s a great piece in today’s Times by Vecsey….I don’t how to copy, post, paste so you’ll need to pull it up….Especially for all those you were quoting Branch Rickey…….”
Don’t say I never did anything for you.
December 20, 2009
SPORTS OF THE TIMES
Even the Reliable Must Face the Inevitable
By GEORGE VECSEY
Life has not been fair ever since the Yankees snookered Babe Ruth away from the Red Sox for the 1920 season. They mostly do what they want.
These days, with New York cable television revenue at their disposal, the Yankees can afford to jettison two Old Reliables, Hideki Matsui and Johnny Damon, in the same autumn in which the original Old Reliable, Tommy Henrich, died at 96.
Bring in some younger Old Reliables. That’s the way the Yankees work. But look at it this way: if the Yankees seem cold-blooded about lopping off two professionals who helped win their 27th World Series, Matsui and Damon also contributed to the breakup.
Matsui has signed with the Angels for $6.5 million and Damon, whose agent did not back down from staying at the $13 million level until it was too late, appears to be gone now that the Yankees have agreed to terms to make Nick Johnson their designated hitter.
“It’s part of baseball,” Damon said in a text message Thursday. And he is absolutely right.
This high-salary musical chairs is not reassuring for fans in great old baseball towns like Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and Kansas City, who are not likely to see their team in the World Series in the near future.
The Yankees won the championship this year with the biggest payroll in baseball, $206 million. The players ought to lobby until Marvin Miller is voted into the Hall of Fame.
Free agency works both ways. Matsui is 35 and cannot run well, and Damon is 36 and cannot throw, and both of them, in a mixture of pride and avarice and legal freedom, insist on maintaining their income levels.
Going, going, gone, as Mel Allen used to say. In the space of one autumn, the franchise has actually lost three signature Yankees, including Henrich, who died Dec. 1.
The Yankees do not thrive merely on superstars, their Ruths and Gehrigs, their DiMaggios and Mantles. Where would they be without their Old Reliables?
That was the nickname Mel Allen tagged on Henrich, who crushed opponents with a zestful smile. Old Brooklyn fans remember that October day in 1949 when Henrich hit the first game-ending homer in World Series history, to beat Don Newcombe, 1-0.
Nearly half a century later, Steve Jacobson, then a terrific sports columnist with Newsday, was typing in the Yankee Stadium press room on Old-Timers’ Day when he spotted Henrich walking to the men’s room.
You ruined my life, Jacobson told him. After your home run, I couldn’t do my homework.
“Tough,” Henrich said, laughing at him. “What were you going to do, be a doctor?”
The man could squelch a friendly salute — in New York inflection. The Yankees have always had tough guys who made the superstars even better — Bob Meusel in the ’20s; Charlie Keller and Henrich, then Gene Woodling and Hank Bauer, who groused when Casey Stengel platooned them, but loved their World Series checks; then Lou Piniella; followed by Paul O’Neill, who killed the Mets with his 10-pitch walk in the 2000 World Series.
One year after O’Neill retired, the Yankees reached all the way to Japan for Matsui. The first time I heard of Matsui, the Mets were preparing to open the 2000 season in Tokyo. Bobby Valentine, who had managed at Chiba, and would manage there again, praised two players named Matsui, not related: Kazuo, a shortstop with Seibu, and Hideki, an outfielder with the Yomiuri Giants “who hits for power and average, the kind of player any manager would love.”
The Mets got Kazuo. The Yankees got Hideki. Eternal karma, coming true, over and over again.
Matsui was a perfect Yankee the moment he put on his striped uniform. He was big and he was imperturbable and he blazed trails as a Japanese slugger in North America and he drove in six runs in the last game of the 2009 World Series.
When most Japanese players, even the superstar Ichiro Suzuki, tossed around a bit of English, Matsui stayed behind the facade of a helpful clubhouse interpreter. He was unfailingly polite, and maybe we really did not need to know much more about him.
Damon was also an epic Yankee, after he had been an epic Red Sox. He cut off his Old Testament locks when he entered Steinbrennerland, he played hurt, and he was the most available player in the clubhouse, win or lose. A really decent guy.
And in the fourth game of the recent Series, Damon worked a nine-pitch single from Brad Lidge, proceeded to steal second and an unguarded third base in the same sequence, setting up the go-ahead run. But he is no pushover, which is why he is probably gone as the Yankees think about championship No. 28.
Some Yankees fans consider Matsui irreplaceable, and some are lobbying for the front office to meet Damon’s price. But the Yankees are following the example of Branch Rickey, who built championship teams in St. Louis and Brooklyn, and believed it was better to get rid of a player a year too soon rather than a year too late.
With the legal but unequal dispersal of cable revenue, Brian Cashman of the Yankees can afford to play the role of Branch Rickey in this performance. Matsui and Damon are not arguing with their payoff. As Damon noted, that’s baseball.
m, Coach Pete lives in Malibu, I’m down the coast in Newport…Very funny though
Pat M,
Just visited the Lakers Blog at the LA Times, seems that the very esteemed bloggers of that entity have been headhunted by the new espn regional site for LA. While it’s not quite the wake like feel we had around here in October, it did remind me of when Pete left.
I always thought that Pete would go national.
Anyway, interestingly I read that the news espn la site will be run by a company owned by Jeannie Buss. Isn’t that amazing? I wonder if WEEI or NESN owns the espn boston site…
Pat M
Do you live in one of those big homes close to the ocean like they had in that show the O.C ?
I hope you don’t mind me asking ?
Rich in NJ…..You the Man…I still say they should have hung on to Matsui….I’ll see Richie Amaral this week, and see what Kenny Forsch has to say about how Matsui ended up out here….
Jeremy…..No sir, that’s where the top 2 % live….I’m about a mile from the Ocean on the West Bluffs of The Back Bay…..
Pat M
Oh I see ! Must be a nice place to live. I’ve been to California before but only San Francisco and the Bay area. I plan on checking out Southern California sometime.
Jeter probably always should have batted lead-off.
Oh, that Pat M
Skinny dipping coeds in the pool, plucking oranges off the trees in the back yard. Oh the pain of it, Sigh.
As my buddies used to say “Good on you, mate”
Reading the Damon needs the Yankees, Yankees need Damon article by Rosenthal, wasn’t Rosenthal the one that came up with that Lee, Halladay, Mariners trade days before it happened?
Hmm…
Jeremy, it really is two different geographic regions and two very different cultures……
Bo Knows, I’m a NY boy, played stickball all around the playgrounds in NYC ( for money of course )…..I just happen to live in the land of beautiful women…..One of the young college girls told me, that I must have been handsome when I was younger……I took at as a compliment
Reading the Damon needs the Yankees, Yankees need Damon article by Rosenthal, wasn’t Rosenthal the one that came up with that Lee, Halladay, Mariners trade days before it happened?
Hmm…
Yeah same Rosenthal who wrote a column early Friday, saying that the Yanks & Damon should compromise at 2yrs for $26m.
The Halliday Lee column was great, the Damon column on Friday shows him to write what Boras whispers in his ear.
PAt M.
My friend who lives in New Jersey used to live in Southern California and he said the same thing. At least you don’t have to deal with this snow storm.
Jeremy, I had my share of shoveling that stuff as a kid growing up in NY…I never thought I recieved fair compensation for that task…..Although I was able to rifle 6 snowballs at a passing bus
Ha ! I use to do the same thing. Throwing snow balls at passing cars. Fun stuff when I was a kid just hated shoveling, but now that I live in a apartment in the city I don’t have to worry about that anymore.
But winters in C.T. were fun.
Pat
True story. I worked on off shore exploration oil rigs in the High Arctic (Magnetic North Pole region) for ten years. We worked two weeks on and two weeks off. My buddy JC (my cross shift) talked me into living in Phoenix during the winter. What I didn’t know was that the apartment he rented was three blocks from a hospital and infested by nurses. This was heaven and hell in one package. The welcome home and going away parties were memorable, my body was in constant shock and I wimped out after one season. I can only tell you that nurses are aggresive and I was developing a stutter and becoming meek. This from a guy who faced polar bears and knuckle dragging roughnecks.
Bo Knows, It’s been my expierence that nurses are indeed a very special breed……Great story and you survived to tell the tale……
The only reason that I survived was that my self preservation instinct was stronger than my ego. I came out of it a gentler, wiser man.
Mind you, just seeing a beautiful woman still makes the sun shine brighter and the air taste sweeter.
One of the wonders of life….The softer side of Bo Knows…….” Women weaken knees “…..
Heh
In my formative years I had been known to write bad poetry.
Anyway it’s way past pumpkin time.
I still want Melky to make people eat crow.
I still want Melky to make people eat crow.
One would hope that all Yankee fans would wish that.
If Cashman thought that Damom or Matsui would come back unhappy he should look at Andy Pettitte. Andy was lowballed last year but overcame it and was a crucial player. I don’t like hearing this talk because it casts Matsui and Damon in a negative light and they don’t deserve it. Have the guts to say they werent interested in bringing either player back. Don’t be a coward about it and use the media to cover for you.
“If Cashman thought that Damom or Matsui would come back unhappy he should look at Andy Pettitte. Andy was lowballed last year but overcame it and was a crucial player. I don’t like hearing this talk because it casts Matsui and Damon in a negative light and they don’t deserve it. Have the guts to say they werent interested in bringing either player back. Don’t be a coward about it and use the media to cover for you.”
Cashman never stated publicly he had concerns with Damon or Matsui. He did state publicly that some players have difficulty in excepting paycuts from their most recent club. You can accuse Cashman of many things, but the lack of guts isn’t one of them.
“Some Yankees fans consider Matsui irreplaceable, and some are lobbying for the front office to meet Damon’s price. But the Yankees are following the example of Branch Rickey, who built championship teams in St. Louis and Brooklyn, and believed it was better to get rid of a player a year too soon rather than a year too late.”
The last sentence is so true.
Drive 4-5 …You are right the Yankees didn’t want matsui or damon back. There was no negotiating….Matsui knew that and moved on….Damon hung on longer hoping he could strike a deal that never was there. This being said live with the team they have and wait for spring training.This is the team the Yankees have now. It is the best they will have for the money they want to spend. Cashman did a good job with what he had to work with…185 million or whatever the number was.
The Lowell deal is off. Surgery needed.
http://www.weei.com/sports/bos.....owell-deal
Here in Japan, I watched an interview with Matsui’s old high school coach (who taught him everything). I think the manager told Matsui that Southern California weather would be better for his legs. I’m not sure if that was the deciding factor.
Cash said that either Hughes or Joba were going to pitch out of the pen more than once
did Boras pull the rug out from under Damon ? I hope he gets close to what he wanted somewhere but I can’t see it….fire the man Johnny
But only if they get another starter. He cleared that up on the Michael Kay show Friday.
Regarding Damon i have this explanation.
Boras’ negotiation tactics is to start high so you can settle high. Originally it was Bay and Holliday money over 4 years and when that was shot down it went down but the point was that he signaled to the yanks that if was two years it would be at 26 million. He didnt read what Cashman was saying until about a month had passed cause he didnt believe it. By the time Damon got involved it was too late. Sometimes when someone says they are constrained by dollars and length of contract you need to believe it. Boras didnt believe it and Damon didnt get involved until it was too late. I dont want Holiday cause he cant field and he didnt hit that good in Oakland. Let’s get some pitching help and keep Joba in the bullpen for good.
dipper13, that isn’t only Boras’ negotiation strategy, its every agent who does that. Boras usually wins out so often because he doesn’t crack as early as other agents do.
I think there were a combination of problems with Damon and the Yankees. The Yankees wanted Damon over Matsui, but Matsui, reading his tea leaves, left early. That changed the backup plan for the Yankees. Damon and Boras also were over-valuing the market for Damon. No one wanted to pay him what he was asking for.
Once it looks like a party isn’t going to budge much in negotiations you look elsewhere for your solutions. Damon and Boras did start breaking down their demands, but not far enough for where the Yankees were, nearly completing the negotiation with Johnson to take the role they had planned for Damon. That dropped Damon’s value to the team even further.
The Yankees need became a moving goalpost, mainly because the plans changed. Boras didn’t adjust properly and read the situation for what it was.
Holliday can field quite well, as various stats show. He can also hit, though he did struggle – just like Teixeira did in the beginning of the season. The stats show this as well. Apparently you don’t want Holliday, which is fine, but don’t put out incorrect information as the reason behind it.
Joba to the pen. While I can understand this sentiment, and it seems that there are some thoughts leaning that way from the Yankee GM, it is too soon to make that move. Despite the media pushing their opinions regarding the pitcher, Joba can very well post an under 4 ERA as a starter. That is good for a number 4 of the rotation. We also don’t know how much conditioning and pitching more innings than he has even done in his life lead to him running into a wall. His innings limitations were tough to deal with, and he didn’t always listen to his coaches and fellow players. Maybe he can sort that out this season.
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I agree with Cash on this one, it is a weird psychological buffer these guys have.
I remember first seeing it in my life with Alvaro Espinoza. The Yanks were offering him a contract that wasn’t lights out off a poor season for him, but still a starting gig in the bigs, even if the Yankees weren’t THE YANKEES at that time. But he turned them down and ended up going to Minny or Cleveland on a minor league deal in the spring and ended up in a bench role, after telling the Yanks he’d NEVER do that. Espy had a home here and a starting role but ego or pride got in the way.
Personally, I don’t think the Yankees the WS this year WITHOUT Damon AND Matsui. Their willingness to allow them to walk so easily and quickly is astonishing to me. That said, I still think Granderson was a great pick-up but its completely unclear to me whether or not both Granderson or Johnson will possess what both Damon and Matsui clearly have as far as clutch hitting and the ability to win/succeed.
Outside of Pettitte, what I’ve seen this offseason is a little shocking to me, not just the Yankees, but Sox too (letting Bay walk, paying Lackey so much.) I’m just sort of confused on the Yankee goals for next year. Win again? Re-tool and get younger…? Granderson and Johnson are an indication of the latter.
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On a side note: To CHAD, you are really evolving into quite the efficient blogger. Facts, good thoughts, concise and interesting. This was a great post! Keep it up.