Addressing the present, saving for the future (and a Special Live Chat today!)
Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Dec 22, 2009 
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So far this offseason Brian Cashman has traded for Curtis Granderson and (apparently) signed Nick Johnson and dealt for Javy Vazquez. All three moves addressed areas of weakness for the Yankees but, unlike many instances in the past, the team didn’t sacrifice a) financial flexibility going forward; and b) a tremendous amount of top minor league prospects.
With Johnson and Vazquez both on one year-deals, the Yankees aren’t hampering themselves when it comes to the inevitable discussions with Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera, as well as their desire to swim in a 2011 free agent pool that could include Cliff Lee, Joe Mauer, Carl Crawford, Brandon Webb and others.
Also, the Yankees appear to be staying committed to retaining as much young talent as they can while also still being active in addressing current issues. As Tyler Kepner mentioned on Twitter, the Yankees used six prospects to get Granderson and Vazquez but kept Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, Jesus Montero, Mark Melancon, Austin Romine and Zach McAllister. That’s pretty solid.
It’s also worth noting that, assuming Vazquez has a decent year, the Yankees can expect to get draft picks from whatever team signs him as a free agent next winter. So that will help them re-fill their prospect levels.
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Since there’s so much going on in the Yankees world today, we thought it’d be good to have a last-minute Live Chat so that Chad and I can take your questions. It won’t be a video chat, but we’ll have the live Q&A software set up right here in the blog at 3 p.m. so you can send in your questions for Chad and I to answer in real-time.
Make your plans now: 3 p.m., right here on the blog for a Q&A. Be there!
UPDATE, 11:56 a.m.: In other news, the Yankees reportedly agreed to a deal with minor-league catcher Mike Rivera. He batted .228 with two home runs and 14 RBIs in 41 games for Milwaukee and was non-tendered.
who are potential pitchers for sale next offseason besides cliff lee?
The Yankees have also been smart not to extend Jeter or Mo until after this season, which guards against overpaying one or both if they decline.
the Yankees this winter have improved CF when facing righty pitchers, have probably degraded it against lefties.
they’ve a void in LF.
They’ve picked up a DH who can hit when he’s healthy, which unfortunately is never.
They’ve picked up a failed AL starter who also happens to have been involved in what was beyond doubt the worse moment in Yankee history – though give Kevin Brown and Torre their due share of blame for that debacle.
they’ve given up a bunch of useful players and chips – Ajax, Dunn, coke, Melky, etc., etc.
this is a disaster of a winter so far.
tex’s friend: lee, webb, beckett
WOW! Slam dunk trade for Cashman. Amazing. Perfect. LOVE IT. I called this yesterday afternoon, but thought it would be Lilly. Now for LF. DeRosa on the cheap? Damon one year deal?
George, GET A CLUE. That is all.
With Andy retiring after the 2010 season, I’d be very surprised if the Yankees didn’t go hard after Cliff Lee.
“this is a disaster of a winter so far.”
Actually it’s been the exact opposite.
I agree with George 100 percent
I would take this “disaster of a winter” over the winter that literally every other team in the league has had, player acquisition-wise.
“They’ve picked up a failed AL starter who also happens to have been involved in what was beyond doubt the worse moment in Yankee history – though give Kevin Brown and Torre their due share of blame for that debacle.”
If facts matter to you, Vazquez was hurt in 2004.
It’s Zach McAllister, Sam. Not Blaine.
Trade Mitre. Gaudin is better.
I’m liking this trade more and more.
But I have to say, I will miss the Melkman.
We won the world series last year, 2004 is in the past it happened get over it.
Valerie,
Stop going back 5 years ago. Live in the present. The presnet is that Javy is a stud, who finished 4th in Cy Young votes.
Already changed Rodg – caught it right away. I’m a big golf guy, what can I say?
The only deal I like so far is the Granderson deal. Other than that, this winter has been a disappointment.
nyp_joelsherman:
#Yankees project Vazquez as Type-A fr agt next winter so can offer arb and – if rejected – get 2 high picks to begin replenish system
Disaster of a winter! LOL
Without question, the dumbest comment posted today.
Congratulations.
If facts matter to you, Vazquez was hurt in 2004-
Rich, sorry thats no excuse of how bad he pitched in that series and how bad he pitched for the white sox
Already talk of trading Mitre or Gaudin…
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....mitre.html
Not shocking, obviously.
Eh
Melky was blah, not sad to lose him.
Vazquez is also crap, al east fodder.
THIS is the big trade?
Koolaid drinkers drink deeply while the rest of us giggle.
Starting to think this is a Yankee hater blog. Every other one love the move!
“disaster” really??
You don’t think for a minute that people who acutally get paid to learn about players and make the team better know just a little more than you do? Are you going to get fired if the Yankees lose?
How about a little perspective and a little less knee jerk reaction…
Joe from CT–I enjoy living in the past
. Seriously, though, I’m not a fan of Vazquez. yes, he was good last year and the year before (and the year before) but I’m just not confident in his abilities. I guess he’ll have a lot to prove.
Can the Yanks turn around a make another deal including Vazquez and ship him somewhere freezing cold…Maybe Minnesota stadium outdoors??
SJ44
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:27 am
Disaster of a winter! LOL
Without question, the dumbest comment posted today.
Congratulations
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SJ, don’t be so quick to crown him the winner. I’m sure there will be more.
“…and how bad he pitched for the white sox”
Only he didn’t actually pitch that poorly, of course. His numbers are worse compared to what he did with the Braves last year, of course. But, the numbers he put up in Chicago, on the Yankees in 2010, it is upwards of 15 wins.
-You are wrong.
-How can the deal be good contingent on signing Lee and yet it doesn’t have an eye towards 2011?
-In the most airtight of vaccums this deal is an absolute steal.
-The Yankees could stick ANYONE in LF and they would still be the best team in the AL (and that isn’t to say I think they will. I believe they will bring someone in and be that much better).
-12 million isn’t that much for a pitcher that would be a #1 or #2 on any other staff in the league. Also its more like 8 million b/c of getting rid of Melky’s salary.
-You are wrong.
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1) so then 50% of the bloggers are also wrong – according to Mr. D….
2) rich harden who is 10 times better than vasquez (and has proven it in the AL too) signed a 7.5 million contract – THATS a good deal –
3) anyone who starts using questionable math (its really only 8 million when you take away the 3 million from babe ruth’s 1921 signing bonus blah blah blah) needs to get out of his mom’s basement and start living in the real world..it doesn’t work that way
4) if i’m wrong i can’t even begin to think of the word to describe what ideas come out of your head..
5) merry christmas..
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thans for ignoring most of my points and just spitting out nonsense.
Well that means that 50% (or more) agree with me.
Rich Harden is 10 times the pitcher that Javy is? I didn’t see him getting any Cy young votes last year. I also don’t see him staying healthy ever. you want to talk about questionable math, then I guess your 10 times the pitcher stunt is pretty damn questionable.
Great job working babe ruth into the discussion.
You countered my argument by throwing out ridiculous subjective numbers like “50%” and “10 times better” and then flaunting your lack of understanding of basic accounting.
Then you just made 2 non-sequitur statement.
Great argument skills.
Happy Holidays to you and yours.
2. Also from Sherman:
With Vazquez, #Yankees will try to save some $$ by trading Gaudin or Mitre to team seeking backend help before spring training ends
None of this makes any sense – the Yankees will have no pen by the time the offseason ends. I don’t care if they dump Mitre, but I like Gaudin
The Commish December 22nd, 2009 at 11:27 am
nyp_joelsherman:
#Yankees project Vazquez as Type-A fr agt next winter so can offer arb and – if rejected – get 2 high picks to begin replenish system
==============
This is fun to read, let’s offend the returning pitcher who was chased out of town.
First, we consider him an 8 million dollar pitcher.
Second, we won’t be signing him for 2011.
I’d be shocked if Vasquez had a terrific season in the AL based simply on a spectacular season in the NL……at best, I think he’ll be workman-like and solid. I don’t get why, after 1 season, JV is all of a sudden some fantastic pitcher.
mike ri
There are no excuses in life, but there are reasons.
His ERA+ in his three seasons for the White Sox:
98, 126, 98
So he was about league average in two seasons, and 26% above league average in one season.
Getting a 4th starter coming off a 143 ERA+ season, is pretty good.
People, as much as I disagree with this move, we have to remember a certain player by the name of Curtis Granderson, who is now wearing pinstripes. That outweighs this, if this should turn out badly.
And the Yanks get another Boomerang Yankee!
Braves were interested in Johnny but he was too expensive. Johnny was interested in the Braves because their ST is in Orlando and Atlanta is near Orlando.
Do they now use the $8-9 M they saved on Vazquez and give it to Johnny and make Melky the 4th OF or save the cash and play Melky?
Here’s an old blog entry (Sept. 2008, when the Yankees last played meaningless baseball) by Tyler Kepner about Vazquez, that was good then and is still really good now. I dedicate it to all the Vazquez haters:
http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/.....r-vazquez/
Worst case scenerio vaz pitches like a good #4. Best case scenerio, he’s the second best pitcher in the team. The guy eats innings. Strong move by the cash-manm
I understand that now that George is back running the show the Yankees will sign Thome (one of his favourites)as the DH and then trade Nick Johnson to the Mariners for Jay Buhner so the Yankees will have a righty/lefty DH combo.
Can’t comfirm the rumour of trading Austine Romine for Jamie Moyer.
And what’s this dripple about 2 draft picks if Vazquez becomes a FA? The Yankees have to offer arbitration to get them. They are not doing this anymore they are either signing the guy to a longer term or just letting him go.
UPdate: Other team is requesting Montero for Moyer. George is thinking it over.
HC
So, is it correct to say that this is the “Winter of our discontented content”?
joel she-man hates the Yankees
I not too broken up about trading Melky.
A-Jax may or may not be the goods, but the Yankees have
seen him a lot more than I have.
Coke is a nice have, but not essentia and Marte looked like a new man in the playoffs.
Never seen Dunn on a Top 10 prospect list.
Arodys, if traded, had a good arm, from what I read, but I really don’t know too much.
I am one happy Yankee fan. What a great job by Cashman so far. The only thing left to do is getting a LF which he’ll do in the near future.
JeterJobaCanoFan2010
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:24 am
I sure am going to miss Melky. He was fun to watch. Loved it when he got his triple to complete the cycle. Was he pumped. I would love to know what he really said in Spanish when he was safe at 3rd base.
——————————-
Melky literally said ” damn..co-ks–kers”
But me being dominican you can take it as him saying ” yeah I told you so”.. or something of that sort
repost:
SJ44,
You are underrating Vizcaino a bit. His ceiling is as high as anyone in the Yankees system.
That being said, I don’t disagree with you a bit. While Viz has a ton of potential his trade value isn’t all that high. Chances are he will never make it to the big leagues, let alone reach his ceiling.
While I think this was an absolute steal of a deal, and think that Javy is more like our No. 2 or 3 pitcher as opposed to those calling him our No. 4 pitcher, those pointing to his 1 good start against the Sox last year need to think for just one minute….
It’s one start, one start…
Red Sox don’t understand how Cash can pull these greats deals off while RedSox trades just disintegrate before their very eyes.
Answer is easy…
Maybe Epstein should think about offering non-injured players…he might actually get a deal done if they offer a player that has a chance on being able to play during 2009!
Gardner and Mitre to Kansas City for David Dejesus.
Our payroll would then sit at 199 million.
Done for the offseason.
“I would take this “disaster of a winter” over the winter that literally every other team in the league has had, player acquisition-wise.”
i’d take the Red Sox winter. they got Lackey to improve their rotation – he’s much better than Vasquez. didn’t cost them any chips, either. they lost Bay, but patched that w/Cameron. but overall Lackey improves them.
we’ve just gone downhill. the starting 9 was better with Matsui & Damon, we’ve lost some very useful role players and chips. and all we have to show for it is Granderson – a nice center fielder but probably best suited to a platoon – and Grand Slam Vasquez.
“Only he didn’t actually pitch that poorly, of course. His numbers are worse compared to what he did with the Braves last year, of course. But, the numbers he put up in Chicago, on the Yankees in 2010, it is upwards of 15 wins”
Agreed. I do think last year was a case of a good pitcher having a great year that was much more the exception than the rule. But, he is a virtual lock for 200+ innings and with an ERA which I’d project to be in the 4.00 to 4.30 range, he does stand to be a 15 game winner on this team. He’s what this team needed.
Assuming Hughes or Joba go to the pen (and not AAA), it does not lessen their long term value. The Yanks will need two starters next yr (Vazquez and Pettitte coming off the books) and I doubt they will sign two FA pitchers.
So you could very easily see Hughes and Joba both in the rotation next year. Especially if Joba pitches a full season this yr with no issues.
I still think the yanks will start Hughes in AAA and let him pitch 100 innings there and then call him up mid season to bolster the pen.
Erin,
very true! LOL
Betsy,
No pen?
Ace, Joba, Robertson, Marte, Logan, Rivera is probably one of the 3 best pens in the league.
They have 4 guys who can pitch 800 innings on the rotation, with Hughes as the fifth starter.
It’s a better staff, top to bottom, than last year.
What more do you want?
People need to really look more carefully at why Vazquez’s prior stint in NY went the way it did.
Vazquez made the all star team in 2004 when he was with the yanks.
He had a good first half and a very bad second half. People are only remembering the second half.
And he likely had that bad second half due to injury. He threw a ton of innings the year prior for the expos and with the yanks he developed a tired shoulder the second half. The tired shoulder came out after the season was over, but there was a marked difference in vazquez the first half and second that year and his stuff just wasn’t the same.
Erin
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:29 am
SJ44
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:27 am
Disaster of a winter! LOL
Without question, the dumbest comment posted today.
Congratulations
********************
SJ, don’t be so quick to crown him the winner. I’m sure there will be more.
————————————————————
You always seem to be trying to stir things up, Erin. Bert and Ernie won’t be very happy with you. One Ms Piggy is enough.
Vazquez had good numbers with the White Sox because he got a lot of run support. He was giving up 5+ runs a game and a ton of walks. At the end, they were very happy to see him go. Come 2011, so will we.
In the past 9 seasons, vazquez has averages 190 plus innings, a k/9 around 8, and a whip under 1.3. Anyone who dislikes a pitcher with those peripherals needs to expand their baseball knowledge. Vazquez is a stud and an absolute steal for the yankees. If he puts up numbers anywhere close to what he did last season, the Yankees will again have one of the best rotations in baseball.
I sure am going to miss Melky. He was fun to watch.
————————————————-
if we can get Hoffmann to put a empty box of David sunflower seeds on his head, he can be fun to watch too
You guys are forgetting that Vazquez is pitching this year for a new contract.. Great move by the Yanks
That being said, I don’t disagree with you a bit. While Viz has a ton of potential his trade value isn’t all that high.”
Exactly. He does not have Red Sox organizations such as BA, BP, and ESPN propping him up like Casey Kelly or Ryan Kalish or Jose Iglesias, Stolmy Pimentil, Tim Federowicz, Ryan Westmoreland…….
Lackey has elbow problems.
Valerie G.–BRING BACK MELKY!
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:21 am
Joe–look at his stats from when he was on the Yankees.
————–
He had a very good 1st half (All Star) of the season and struggled in the 2nd half with a sore shoulder. Like a lot of players that come to NY, he didnt tell the training staff about the injury because he didnt want to let people down.
I really wouldnt look to closely at his 2004 season.
“I don’t get why, after 1 season, JV is all of a sudden some fantastic pitcher.”
Well first of all because in that one season he was probably the second best pitcher in the NL.
He has also had other very good seasons throughout his career, it’s not like 2009 was his only good year.
The other thing is, his peripherals throughout his career have indicated that he is a very very good pitcher. Sometimes the results didn’t match up with how well he was pitching.
To be quite honest, Vazquez should be the #2 pitcher on this team, not the #4. He’s better than Burnett and Pettitte.
george
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:23 am
the Yankees this winter have improved CF when facing righty pitchers, have probably degraded it against lefties.
they’ve a void in LF.
They’ve picked up a DH who can hit when he’s healthy, which unfortunately is never.
They’ve picked up a failed AL starter who also happens to have been involved in what was beyond doubt the worse moment in Yankee history – though give Kevin Brown and Torre their due share of blame for that debacle.
they’ve given up a bunch of useful players and chips – Ajax, Dunn, coke, Melky, etc., etc.
this is a disaster of a winter so far.”
Mr. George, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul
Repost but necessary
Wow… this is just absurd.
Newsflash Yankee fans: MELKY CABRERA IS NOT THAT GOOD.
He’s a 4th OF at very best. He can’t hit his way out of a paper bag and he’s an average fielder.
Trading him for a guy who was one of the best pitchers in baseball last year is a terrific move.
Seriously, anyone who thinks this isn’t a good deal for the Yankees… is just wrong. I don’t know how to say it any other way.
Betsy -high on pie
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:31 am
I’d be shocked if Vasquez had a terrific season in the AL based simply on a spectacular season in the NL……at best, I think he’ll be workman-like and solid. I don’t get why, after 1 season, JV is all of a sudden some fantastic pitcher.
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – -
Yep, great words of encouragement especially in light of the fact that Javier Vasquez has won 10 or more games in each of the last 10 years. Now that’s terrible consistency.
# Laura • Why aren’t more people watching FRINGE? December 22nd, 2009 at 11:35 am
Vazquez had good numbers with the White Sox because he got a lot of run support. He was giving up 5+ runs a game and a ton of walks. At the end, they were very happy to see him go. Come 2011, so will we.
————
Your right we wont give him much run support our offense is downright terrible.
How are some of you people real???????????????
I’m going to miss Melky a lot.
And he wasn’t just fun because of the empty sunflower seeds box lol.
Go ask White Sox fans about Vazquez. It;s like talking to Yankke fans the day after the 04 season when Vaz put the final touches on ending the curse…..GRAND SLAM……and don’t use BS like he was hurt in 04…..he was just bad and didnt have the stomach to get through the tough times.
He was then very sub-par in Chicago. Last yr, he was awesome. Javier likes the NL. Just a fact
Headed into the season, the yankees will have arguably the best starting staff and the best bull pen in baseball.
They will also have more depth in starting pitching then nearly any other team.
Gordon Eddes’ take, ESPN’s Boston guy
“By trading outfielder Melky Cabrera to the Atlanta Braves on Tuesday for pitcher Javier Vazquez, the New York Yankees are now in a position to make one more big play for a left fielder.
My guess is they re-sign Johnny Damon, but you can be certain agent Scott Boras is trying to persuade Brian Cashman to make a play for Matt Holliday, with Jason Bay a more remote (but more affordable) possibility. But I’ll stick with my prediction of Johnny D., with the Yanks holding back some resources to make a huge play for catcher Joe Mauer in 2010.”
http://espn.go.com/boston/colu...../name/edes
Sounds like an amalgamation of what a lot of people around here have been saying.
Very good move by Cashman.
We no longer “got melk”, but his skills are very replaceable.
Looks like Joba will be pitching the 8th, so this just solidified our bullpen.
This is similar to what I proposed in getting Sheets and moving Joba to the bullpen, but Javy is as close to a lock to throw 200+ innings as you can get (I didn’t know the Braves were looking to move him), for about the same price Sheets will likely get, or a little more.
Laura • Why aren’t more people watching FRINGE?
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:35 am
Vazquez had good numbers with the White Sox because he got a lot of run support. He was giving up 5+ runs a game and a ton of walks. At the end, they were very happy to see him go. Come 2011, so will we.
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A ton of walks? His highest White sox total was 61. His highest ever was his rookie yeat at 68.
Thanks to Melky for a very good Yankee in 2009.
Sparked the team on many come from behind victories.
Melky will always be remembered by the Yankee Faithful…as will Johnny Damon.
They got it done in Pinstripes…nobody can ever take that away from them!
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AjJy1Bmwcyr_dGpwTzlEYzdVWnRVQ2toZlYwRDJHTHc&hl=en
Current 25 man roster = 194 million AAV. There is still one bench spot open, and assumes Gardner is our LF.
GreenBeret7
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:35 am
You always seem to be trying to stir things up, Erin. Bert and Ernie won’t be very happy with you. One Ms Piggy is enough.
*********************
GB, Bert and Ernie would never disagree with me! And there can never be too many Miss Piggy’s! Do you need a karate chop?
“To be quite honest, Vazquez should be the #2 pitcher on this team, not the #4. He’s better than Burnett and Pettitte.”
This is true. But it’s just better for the team to say he’s a #4 to temper expectations given his prior stint here.
So if the NYY are really serious about the budget, who plays LF in 2010?
Patrick-Vazquez is not better than AJ or Pettitte. You are saying that he is better than a guy that just finished off 3 clinching games in a series including the World series; where vazquez has spit the bit in every big game he has ever pitched!!1
Now I think this could all change and Javier should have a better yr than his previous AL stops, but please don’t say on Dec 22 that he is better than AJ and Andy…..get a clue
I really want nothing to do with Mark Derosa. His pedestrian OBP and OPS, and more importantly, his very slight resemblance to Ben Affleck…. YUCK!
vazquez is a great fit. He throws a lot of innings and its a short term deal. Melky is very easily replaceable. I don’t see any way this is a bad deal for the Yankees.
I still think Holliday or Damon one will be wearing pinstripes.
“Vazquez had good numbers with the White Sox because he got a lot of run support. He was giving up 5+ runs a game and a ton of walks. At the end, they were very happy to see him go. Come 2011, so will we.”
He can give up 5 runs a game with the Yankees and win plenty of games. He can also sprinkle in some great pitched games, which I am confident he will do and which he certainly did in Chicago, as well, regardless of what the “fans” and people of the city said and felt about him. His numbers from those 3 years don’t lie, and they are not as “terrible” as a lot of people would have them be.
If it doesn’t go perfectly with him in his second stint in New York, then as you said, he moves on to another team. I don’t think this will be remembered as the trade where the Yankees gave up Melky Cabrera for 1 year of Vazquez. 5 years from now, it may be discussed around Vizcaino getting dealt, but 5 years is a long time.
Joe, I didn’t say that he wouldn’t get run support from us. My point is that he gives up a lot of runs and isn’t this great pitcher that people on here want us to believe.
“this is a disaster of a winter so far.”
Is your real name Eeyore?
Patrick-Vazquez is not better than AJ or Pettitte. You are saying that he is better than a guy that just finished off 3 clinching games in a series including the World series; where vazquez has spit the bit in every big game he has ever pitched!!1
Now I think this could all change and Javier should have a better yr than his previous AL stops, but please don’t say on Dec 22 that he is better than AJ and Andy…..get a clue
—–
Being a good all around pitcher and being a good big game pitcher are 2 different things.
Javy will have better numbers then Andy over the course of the season. I guarantee you that. But who do I want up on the mound in a clinching game…probably Andy
Not complaining about the trade, but I will miss Melky. He will always be a part of Yankee history w/ the walk-offs and hitting for the cycle…for that matter I will miss Johnny D and Matsui. I really liked the 2009 team, which is not to say I wont like the 2010 team…
vinny-b (NJ and Granderson – thank you Cashman!) December 22nd, 2009 at 11:36 am
if we can get Hoffmann to put a empty box of David sunflower seeds on his head, he can be fun to watch too
—
LOL
Contrary to the “Other” George.
The Yanks have an improved team in pitching, defense, and offense.
I have been a Melky supporter, but with him gone I would like to see an upgrade in left now. Not necessarily Damon or Holliday. Gardner/Hoffman LF is good defensively and we still wouldn’t have the weakest 9th spot in the league if it came to that.
This is turning out to be a pretty good off season.
Johnson’s not Matsui or Damon, he’s an injury risk and Tex owns 1B for the next 7 years. Yet somehow (considering all 3 only as DH’s) he has some qualities of both Matsui & Damon. A slight downgrade but not bad as long as the OF gets more of what it needs. Granderson needs work on some splits but this stadium & lineup might suit him better than Detroit. Compared to last year the OF will be an overall upgrade. Vazquez is not an ace but he should be a great fit as the team’s 4th best starter. Upgrade to the rotation, unless Joba or Phil breaks out, either of which would make it even more of an upgrade.
The only good move Boston made was Lackey. Lowell backfired on them and Cameron ain’t much to worry about. Oh… they also retained the services of Varitek & Wakefield. Skunk.
Halladay went to Philly but Philly lost Lee in the process. Par.
Lee is on the same team as King Felix, but the rest of their team’s not nearly as good as ours and Lee’s a free agent in one year. Upgrade but not enough.
Angels upgraded with Matsui replacing the shell of what was once Vlad, but they lost Lackey. Slight upgrade with a downgrade … ultimately not enough.
As Sam points out, adding Granderson, Johnson & Vazquez so far while keeping what the Yanks have been able to keep is pretty good. More so when you consider how last year’s key opponents have done.
And Holliday’s still out there, available w/o having to trade away any players. Probably the same goes for Cliff Lee next year too.
Javier Vasquez is a very good pitcher, but it would be silly to expect him to be what he was in Atlanta last year because he won’t pitch most of his games against NL teams with a pitcher in the lineup.
Late last year in consecutive starts against playoff contenders Houston, St Louis and Philadelphia he went 23 innings and allowed just two earned runs total. He lost to the Red Sawx in a game where he pitched 7 2/3 and gave up one run. He’s a better, more mature version of the guy the Yanks had and should have held on to in 2004.
Took me awhile to process my thoughts, but I LOVE this trade.
Want to know why?
Javy is not coming back to the same AL East he left.
Manny Ramirez is gone. Ortiz is a shell of himself. The teams in the division have gone from drug fueled mashers to teams who rely on speed and defense.
You know how you beat speed and defense? Great pitching that doesn’t walk the bases loaded.
Javy does not walk the bases loaded.
Maybe the way he ended 2004 will make him go out and erase that thought from all of our minds.
The only sure thing we give up in the deal was Melky who did a great job for us last year and helped us win a ring.
That said, Melky was a player that the rest of the lineup had to carry in order to justify him being in the lineup.
This opens the door for another LF’er and I can’t wait to see what Cashman has in store for us.
Our rotation is loaded now people. Theo and the Sox are shaking in their boots.
We added a healthy 200 inning strikeout pitcher who doesn’t walk people.
Yes, he was here before and a lot of us, myself included, have a bad taste in our mouth.
But just remember, Javy’s had time to learn from this and the AL East isn’t what it was.
Boston alone has lost so much power in it’s lineup. If we keep them off the bases we beat them.
Great deal by Cashman and I can’t wait to see what the cherry on top of the sundae is going to be at this point in LF.
I’m sure whoever he gets for LF will be a better offensive player than Melky.
The team is upgrading in a big way.
I know there is a lot of connections to Melkey et all: but this team is now built to wreck people, in regular and postseason. This team could be a wrecking ball.
“This is true. But it’s just better for the team to say he’s a #4 to temper expectations given his prior stint here.”
Good point.
Nud,
You are putting too much stock into a very small sample of postseason games. Please go look at Vazquez’ stats vs Burnett and Pettitte’s in 2009.
Love the move, hate the fact that it means Joba will most likely be in the pen.
He should start in AAA and continue to develop as a starter. This is career suicide for someone who has a chance to be one of the truly elite pitchers in major league baseball. Phil doesn’t yet have that potential.
Its unfathomable to me that Cashman is giving up on this guy after the glimpses he showed in 2008 and the fact that he was coming off a significant shoulder injury in August of that year. He hasn’t been the same pitcher since then, as a starter or in the bullpen. If Joba returns to the ‘Joba of old’ this year in the pen then we can only ponder what the hell he’d be doing as a starter.
If he’s healthy and ready to go he’s the best starter we have not named CC. And he’ll be wasted in the ‘eighth inning role’ that’s bar none the most overrated commodity in the game today.
Damon is only an option if he takes 7 mil or less.
There’s still a lot of time before Spring Training to pick up a LF.
i don’t understand why people are being negative.
the yankees now have the best starting staff in baseball. they also have one of the best bullpens. their number 6 (joba or phil) are still better than the red sox number 5 (or 4 for that matter)
their offense is now better than 2009. and they are still not done.
has any team improved themselves more than the yankees this offseason? and we did win the world series.
just relax and enjoy your holidays. cashman is in stealth mode. that’s a very good thing
G. love—all interesting points.
Erin
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:41 am
GreenBeret7
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:35 am
You always seem to be trying to stir things up, Erin. Bert and Ernie won’t be very happy with you. One Ms Piggy is enough.
*********************
GB, Bert and Ernie would never disagree with me! And there can never be too many Miss Piggy’s! Do you need a karate chop?
————————————————————
Bert and Ernie are wimps. Ms Piggy could give me chops anytime. What a rack…of ribs.
Transmission allowed:
Who is the Grandmaster ?
And
What game does he play ?
And
Are there many pieces in this Game ?
And
Isn’t a Grandmaster good at moving them ?
And
What is the object of this game ?
CHECKMATE.
That is what we see.
End transmission.
End transmission.
I’m just going to put this out there MTU…
I don’t really get it.
800 innings plus at the top of our rotation. Joba or Hughes in the pen. A great offense. Does it really matter who is in left? We are looking at 105+ wins next year with 6 very good options (plus kids) for starters to reduce risk.
2010 is going to be a fun year!
Last year, we got Tex on 12/23. Maybe history repeats this year….
G-C–maybe I’m insane, but I like Joba in the pen. always have.
Andrew, I watched some of the stinkers that he pitched for the White Sox; they are still very fresh in my mind. I of course remember 2004 so let’s not even go there. I have not seen him pitch for ATL so perhaps he has improved. I’ll keep my fingers crossed.
MTU,
I don’t want to be mean but your gimmick isn’t funny.
Melky, Thanks for the mammaries
800 innings plus at the top of our rotation. Joba or Hughes in the pen. A great offense. Does it really matter who is in left? We are looking at 105+ wins next year with 6 very good options (plus kids) for starters to reduce risk.
2010 is going to be a fun year!
—-
I concur sir. As I have said all along, the Yanks could stick anyone out in LF…some options are much better then others but we will win regardless of who is in left.
I think the Yankees should buy a cow and stick him in left field.
I bet the cow would take the major league minimum and this Yankee team would still compete!
Transmission allowed:
Nick-
Learn to play the game, and you will understand my meaning.
End transmission.
GreenBeret7
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:46 am
Bert and Ernie are wimps. Ms Piggy could give me chops anytime. What a rack…of ribs.
**********************
GB, you’re horrible! lol
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:49 am
Transmission allowed:
Nick-
Learn to play the game, and you will understand my meaning.
End transmission.
—-
No. I mean I get the meaning of what you are saying…I just don’t get the schtick.
I recently found the need to get MLB Network.
Can soemone explain how they are so great?
They have not had any breaking news or analysis of Javy trade.
Sorry to see Melky go. He could have played LF for the Yankees while batting 9th.
But I like the trade. Vazquez is a solid pitcher and will give you 200 innings. I expect he will do very well and the Yanks will score a lot of runs for him.
“this is a disaster of a winter so far.”
Circle gets the square. Why don’t you go root for the Mets. They are having a MONSTER off-season so far.
After the Sox signed Lackey there were a lot of yankee fans down playing that signing.
Lackey doesn’t have better stuff than AJ. But Lackey is a better pitcher than AJ.
Now Lackey’s big downside is his health. I really don’t like his elbow.
That said – prior to this trade the Red Sox probably had better pitching than the yankees.
Now – the yankees not only have a better starting staff they clearly have a better bull pen because either Hughes or Joba now goes back to the pen.
The Red Sox entire strategy this off season has been to beat the yankees by “run prevention” – that is, to have better pitching and defense.
The yankees just punched a hole in that entire strategy in a big way.
And depending on who the yankees get to play LF the yankees also looked primed to be a much better defensive club than they were in 2009.
“I bet the cow would take the major league minimum and this Yankee team would still compete!”
Yup. But the grass in left would be all effed up.
The fact that my White Sox buddies are texting/emailing with their condolences isn’t helping matters.
Expanding on what CB said this is from RAB:
“What we forget though is Javier Vazquez’s All Star-worthy first half of 2004. Through his first 18 starts, Vazquez went 10-5 with a 3.56 ERA. He struck out 81 in 104.2 innings and sported a 3.12 K/BB ratio. In the second half, though, everything fell apart for the right-hander. He went 5-6 with a 5.79 ERA and found himself pitching in relief in the playoffs. He got the Game 3 win in Boston but was hardly stellar in the Yanks’ 19-8 trouncing of the Red Sox.”
CB,
How does the addition of Vazquez affect the win projection with using a replacement level player in LF?
JoeyA–that was funny lol.
How much is Javy’s contract?
I posted this before, and I’ll post it again.
One question.
It’s lame, and it makes not sense, and this is probably a great trade, but:
WHO RELEIVED KEVIN BROWN IN GAME 7 OF THE 2004 ALCS? WHO GAVE UP THE GRAND SLAM TO JOHNNY DAMON? WHO?
Five years of erasing bad karma, and it now comes flowing back in. Let’s hope they now sign Johnny or Halliday to be the LF for 10.
Nick-
I was trying to say that Cashman is like a Grandmaster
playing a chessgame.
He has his pieces, and he moves them in strategic fashion
to accomplish a certain goal.
Which is like a checkmate in chess.
It allows the Yanks to do that to the other teams.
No schtick at all.
Actually, hearing all of these comments has actually managed to change my mind somewhat…this might not be so bad after all, though I’m still mad about losing Melk.
No problem with this trade.
Melky is a decent player but doesn’t do anything terribly well and can be replaced.
Dunn may be a power lefty but has allowed a lot of walks
I know Vizciano is supposed to be very good – but I have no issues trading a guy who is not even in full season ball yet.
Vazquez won’t be as good as he was last year but he’s a work horse who is going to give the team 200+ IP and given the choices between him and a guy like Sheets or Ducscherer coming off major injuries I would rather have the innings’ eater – especially with AJ in the rotation.
Joba will likely be the set-up pitcher to Mo.
The question now is who plays LF. I doubt Holliday, I doubt Bay and I doubt Damon. Maybe they get Dye or Vlad on 1 year deals to play RF? Maybe Ankiel? Who knows, but I will say this – for those who complain about the Yankees “buying players” the only FA the Yankees have brought in is Nick Johnson and the two trades were very good baseball trades.
I saw Joba starts and Hughesie stays in the pen. Sending Joba back and forth AGAIN, will set him back 2 years. He is finally past innings limits. I say leave him and let hughes stay in 8th inning.
Erin
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:50 am
GreenBeret7
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:46 am
Bert and Ernie are wimps. Ms Piggy could give me chops anytime. What a rack…of ribs.
**********************
GB, you’re horrible! lol
————————————————————
Sorry, Erin, but, I couldn’t pass that up. Not often that I have a chance to make remarks about Ms Piggy.
Question for everyone (because I don’t remember or have blocked out 2004) how was Jorge’s relationship with Javy?
Laura, I remember how poorly he pitched down the stretch in 2008 for the White Sox, and how Guillen basically was ripping him every chance he got for having no guts, which I do not think was the right way to handle that situation at all. But then again, I think Ozzie Guillen is an absolute moron, so that’s par for the course for him. And I think Vazquez does not do well when he is relied upon to be the go-to guy.
The beauty of his 2010 in pinstripes, though, will be that he will not be the go-to guy. He will be subject to the New York scrutiny like everyone else, but there will always be CC and AJ to get the heat for him. He also has a very player-friendly manager in Girardi who doesn’t rip his own players in the press, nor does he have the “old boys club” mentality Torre had by the time 2004 rolled around.
Yanks are at 194. If they trade a Gaudin and Gardner, for say a Dejesus, they would still be at around 195…
“Vazquez had good numbers with the White Sox because he got a lot of run support. He was giving up 5+ runs a game and a ton of walks. At the end, they were very happy to see him go. Come 2011, so will we.”
He averaged 2.4 walks/9 innings when he was with the ChiSox. Andy Pettitte (who we all love) has a career average of 2.8 walks/9 – and 3.5 walks/9 last year.
The following is true about Javy Vazquez:
He strikes guys out.
He doesn’t walk many guys.
He doesn’t give up many hits.
Compared to Andy (first guy to come to mind for comparison’s sake) – he allows fewer hits, fewer walks, gets more strikeouts, and throws more innings. The only downside to JV is the HR rate. It’s a bit high, but he limits the damage by not walking guys or giving up hits.
JV is a very good pitcher. He complements the rotation nicely. The Yanks now have:
A reliable ace
A somewhat erratic, yet great arm #2
A dependable, proven, quality starter
An effective, wily veteran
A young guy who will prove he deserves a spot(I hope its Joba, but we shall see).
@Buck Nasty – “Mr. George, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought.”
yes, it’s very irrational to complain about trading for a guy who pitched like garbage in 3 of his 4 AL seasons, and complaining about dumping our excellent LF for no good reason, etc.
I recently found the need to get MLB Network.
Can soemone explain how they are so great?
They have not had any breaking news or analysis of Javy trade
——————————————————
news breaks are not yet their specialty, although they did have news breaks on some trades this off-season.
the value of the network lies in their programming. And their excellent evening wrap-up shows.
PittsburghYankeeFan–good point.
Losing Vizcaino here was just sloppy.
You don’t give up an arm like that for a year of Javier Vasquez.
Melky moving was predictable, although I see a breakout year from him. Guess he’ll have it in Atlanta.
Dunn has a great arm, but I’m not going to mourn the loss of a BP guy – they’re always replaceable.
The stinging loss here is Arodys Vizcaino – hardly “a lesser prospect” as per Borden’s blog entry.
Nasty breaking stuff and a 96 mph FB. At 19 years of age.
Rated first by BP among Yankee pitching prospects- 2nd overall. Rated in the Top 5 by virtually everyone, and considered by many the most talented arm in the organization.
Dismissing him because of the level he’s got to is beyond obtuse. His is a special, special arm – and the Yankees could have secured their No. 4 spot in the rotation without losing Vizcaino.
It’s a horrendous loss – no spin from the board’s jackals can gloss it over, either.
“for those who complain about the Yankees “buying players” the only FA the Yankees have brought in is Nick Johnson and the two trades were very good baseball trades.”
True but lets be fair, both trades were essentially salary dumps. The Yankees’ money allows them to make both deals.
Would not be surprised at all if Javy outpitches AJ and Andy next year. He is in a contract year to boot.
GreenBeret7
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:54 am
Sorry, Erin, but, I couldn’t pass that up. Not often that I have a chance to make remarks about Ms Piggy.
*****************
No worries, I forgive you. Miss Piggy on the other hand…
“Red Sox don’t understand how Cash can pull these greats deals off while RedSox trades just disintegrate before their very eyes.
Answer is easy…
Maybe Epstein should think about offering non-injured players…he might actually get a deal done if they offer a player that has a chance on being able to play during 2009!”
Best post of the day!!
does anybody else still think
Matty is still in Play ?
I do.
“Question for everyone (because I don’t remember or have blocked out 2004) how was Jorge’s relationship with Javy?”
Posada caught him 28 out of the 33 starts.
“And depending on who the yankees get to play LF the yankees also looked primed to be a much better defensive club than they were in 2009.”
CB, they were already there with Granderson. Now w/o Melky they may not be (for the next few days or few weeks) but unless they sign Damon or trade for Manny, the LF the eventually get will surely make it an overall defensive upgrade.
I’m still super excited about this trade and the look of the 2010 Yanks.
I hate losing players and prospects…
but think about this -
do you think Sox fans or opponents of the Yanks like this move?
The Yanks just got much better for next season. I imagine most, if not all, in the media consider this a nice addition for NY.
Or how about this for LF…everyone always talks about studs…what about an actual stud?
Lets stick a winning race horse out in LF.
Once again, the Yanks would still compete with the current team they have, the horse has the speed to track down balls in death valley, Gardner can spot the horse in case of Barbaro-like disaster and i’m sure we won’t have to pay the horse that much…the horse might work for the major league minimum but we might have to post quite a bit to get the rights to the horse just as if we were acquiring a player from Japan.
Or better yet…how about Brett Gardner RIDING a horse in left field? eh? eh? that would be awesome.
Well even if that doesn’t come true, I still like our teams chances with the actual live stud left field.
http://slickdeals.net/forums/s.....?t=1763360
Free $4 credit on Amazon Video on Demand.
Patrick I have watched Vazquez very closely for his entire carrer, Expos, Yanks, Arz, ChiSox and last yr with Atlanta. Nobody wants him to become an impact player for the Yankees more than me but I refuse to look at last yrs stats and say he is better than Aj or Andy. Maybe he will be in 2010 and that would be great!! I root hard for Vazquez and I am actually glad he gets a chance at redemption as a Yankke because I know he was crushed with the way he pitched for them.
CB – This question is right up your alley.
How does adding Vazquez AND his 200 innings affect the team overall? A huge theme last year was not only how good CC was (and to a lesser extent Pettite and AJ) but also how many innings they pitch. Adding a good to very good Vazquez with all of the innings has to compound the benefit to the Yankees. It also reduces the strain on the bullpen and allows for their maximum effectiveness.
Thoughts!
Melky was fun to root for – a clutch hitter and underappreciated ballplayer. But I like this trade. Vazquez is a quality innings eater who now has veteran experience to go with his stuff.
My initial concern in moving Melky or Swisher was that teams might lowball the Yankees on Melky and downplay his upside.
But by the looks of the talent coming back in this trade, the Braves put a fair value on Melky.
Javier Vazquez is a solid addition to the rotation, especially given the other risky options in this market.
Cashman saw recognized the Brave’s limitations with the Lowe contract and swooped in to grab a bargain in Javy.
Again, Melky was fun to watch but he tried to do too much. He ain’t a HR hitter. Maybe he’ll stay within himself in Atlanta – a low key place that suits his unrealized potential.
“does anybody else still think
Matty is still in Play ?”
No chance.
Transmission allowed:
Can’t help but get the feeling that MTU stands for “Making This Up.”
End Transmission. No, really. End Transmission.
Any chance the Yanks could package up Joba, Gaudin and other stuff and get Shin-Soo Choo from the Indians? Or get Nelson Cruz from the Rangers? Or [insert your favorite young outfielder here]?
Nick-
I was trying to say that Cashman is like a Grandmaster
playing a chessgame.
He has his pieces, and he moves them in strategic fashion
to accomplish a certain goal.
Which is like a checkmate in chess.
It allows the Yanks to do that to the other teams.
No schtick at all.
—-
No, no i get that. It’s the transmission thing that is throwing me off.
“Dismissing him because of the level he’s got to is beyond obtuse.”
No it’s not. It’s simply playing the odds. There is a very high chance that Vizciano never reaches the major leagues. There’s a very high chance that if he does he never reaches his ceiling.
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:54 am
“Howard Cosell December 22nd, 2009 at 11:00 am
Yankee fans who think Melky was nothing more than a fourth outfielder will miss his strong arm and throwing guys out. They’ll miss his speed on the bases and they’ll miss his clutch hits.”
==========================
Sorry Mom but —
4th OF – that’s his level of ML performance.
Strong arm – but not accurate; therefore almost useless.
3 stinking assists – you call that impressive based on all those innings he played ?
Speed ??? Yes; faster than Molina and a few others – otherwise, he often looked like a lost and confused FOZZIE BEAR on the basepaths.
Clutch hits – yes last April & one in May, credit where credit is due…
But – GEEEEEEZ….what a lopsided trade for us !!!
Thanks Cash, Hal, & Hank !!!
(from end of previous thread)
“WHO RELEIVED KEVIN BROWN IN GAME 7 OF THE 2004 ALCS? WHO GAVE UP THE GRAND SLAM TO JOHNNY DAMON? WHO?
Five years of erasing bad karma, and it now comes flowing back in. Let’s hope they now sign Johnny or Halliday to be the LF for 10.”
That’s the reason LOL…..
I’m dieing inside of laughter. He pitched 2004 w/ a bum shoulder.
So LF: DeRosa or Damon?
The chances of Hughes (Or Joba, if he is in the rotation) putting up better numbers than Vasquez in 2010 (200 IP, 200 Ks, low-mid 4 ERA) is slim to none.
We are a better team today than we were yesterday. Embrace it.
I’ve always thought that Javy got a raw deal here a little bit. True, he underperformed but Mel and Joe did nothing to help him.
Mel wasn’t so much a pitching coach as he was a guy who tracked what the pitchers were doing. He was a sounding board for veterans which is why veterans loved him. But if you look at his track record with young starters with the Yankees, outside of Andy it’s not very good (Javy, Lilly, Weaver, Westbrook). And Torre, known for his quick hook, made Vazquez feel as if he was pitching with no margin for error. Vazquez was never allowed to work his way out of trouble or even out of semi-trouble. He got a couple of people on and there was Torre to take him out.
I just think that the two of them could have done more to bring him along and help him adjust to the American League.
We’ll see how he does now that he’s been around the block a few times.
I don’t expect the same numbers he posted last year – but I do imagine that he’s going to be a pretty darn good option for the 4th spot in the rotation.
when I heard about this trade I thought Damon comes back but now thinking about it what do you do with Damon when he’s not in LF do you sit him or NJ & who slots into the LF position.. With a nice group of FA OFers next year it’s hard to say what direction they go in, but one thing for sure they now need a LF
The Yanks can now expect 950+ IP from their starting rotation. That will take a huge load off the pen, maybe even let them carry only 6 relievers.
MTU = Empty You??
LF options:
Cash as Grandmaster
How does he think. what’s his choices and MO.
FA
Trades-bargain bin
Trades-full monty
do nothing- gardener
He isn’t done yet is he ?
I dont think so.
It is a disaster of a winter.
For the rest of the American League.
“So, is it correct to say that this is the “Winter of our discontented content”?”
I’m not sure what surprises me more…that you’re paraphrasing Shakespeare or that you somehow typed “discontented content” without a typo!
“Any chance the Yanks could package up Joba, Gaudin and other stuff and get Shin-Soo Choo from the Indians? Or get Nelson Cruz from the Rangers? Or [insert your favorite young outfielder here]?”
I’d want more for Joba, wouldn’t you?
Josh Johnson + Maybin (that type)
Why would one assume that Javier would be offered arbitration?? He earns $11 million this year. Which means he could pick up the option for a year at at least 11, but possibly much more given his year. The economy should hopefully be much better given another year after that. So the risk of him picking that up is quite high for a year and then looking for a multi year after that. Who would offer him more than 9-10 a year for multiple years next year? Any time the Yankees have sniffed at a player picking up arbitration they haven’t offered it.
Wrapping up the Holliday’s soon.
“Any chance the Yanks could package up Joba, Gaudin and other stuff and get Shin-Soo Choo from the Indians? Or get Nelson Cruz from the Rangers? Or [insert your favorite young outfielder here]?”
Sign me up for Cruz…
Can people stop talking about Game 7 in 2004?
Once that got to a game 7, we had NO SHOT. Did anyone on this planet think we had a shot in game 7?
It was over before it started.
bronx-
give him a break.
He’s made alot of jumps.
At least a 1000.
So now, you sign Damon for $9 x 2. You’ve gotten younger and more athletic?
Erin
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:56 am
GreenBeret7
December 22nd, 2009 at 11:54 am
Sorry, Erin, but, I couldn’t pass that up. Not often that I have a chance to make remarks about Ms Piggy.
*****************
No worries, I forgive you. Miss Piggy on the other hand…
————————————————————
Yeah, she does worry me. She has a large posse that takes offense at those who speak ill of her.
As you can see…I’m gaining more confidence in my spelling.
“The Yanks just got much better for next season. I imagine most, if not all, in the media consider this a nice addition for NY.”
This newly formed front four will give us some flavor for what things may have been like had a healthy Wang shown up for spring training last year. Definite improvements in run prevention both in the rotation and the OF. I don’t think they’ve improved offensively at all, but they didn’t have to given what they’ve done.
MTU –
The Oracle has spoken.
“When is what’s in play not in play?” The One asks.
“It’s when you begin to THINK it’s not in play that it no longer is in play.” She replied.
Then as a dove flies from a nearby tree branch 10,000 Theo Epsteins in black suits descend, and Cashman does his ‘Superman’ thing …
I like Joba, but Josh Johnson > Joba. Josh Johnson would be our #2 starter next year behind CC right now, he is that good.
Buck Nasty
That 11:37 post was awesome.lmao Great movie ref.
yes, it’s very irrational to complain about trading for a guy who pitched like garbage in 3 of his 4 AL seasons, and complaining about dumping our excellent LF for no good reason, etc.
yes it really is becasue we have upgraded with everymove we have made this offseason. Javy isnt comming in to be the savior of the rotation like 2004. especially when he had an amazing first half of 2004 and was hurt the 2nd half. especially when cashman wanted nothing to do with trading him. when he has won 10 games for the last 10 years. id say calling this winter a disaster is prolly one of the dumbest things ive ever heard yea.
tex’s friend December 22nd, 2009 at 11:59 am
So LF: DeRosa or Damon?
———————————–
it now looks like they will need two OFers, if Granderson just plays CF, Gardner’s not going to play LF or RF,even if they move Swish over to LF then who plays RF…..
You can’t pin 2004 on Javy. Torre throwing a starter into a bases-loaded jam, there, against a hitter who owned him (Damon) was colossally stupid.
The point is – Cashman gave up Vizcaino.
At once, stunning and crushing.
Joel Sherman had the Granderson trade and Vasquez trade before the other guys.
Took a big step forward this winter, probably ahead of Heyman now.
Here are the 3 year splits on the Yankee top four starters and I threw in John Lackey as well. It’s hard to believe some people are complaining about this deal.
JV ERA: 3.74, W:42, L:34, K/9: 1.01, OBA: .243, OBP: .289, SLG: .399
AP ERA: 4.25, W:43, L:31, K/9: 0.73, OBA: .279, OBP: .333, SLG: .410
AJ ERA: 3.97, W:41, L:27, K/9: 1.01, OBA: .239, OBP: .321, SLG: .382
CC ERA: 3.08, W:55, L:25, K/9: 0.91, OBA: .243, OBP: .288, SLG: .364
JL ERA: 3.08, W:42, L:22, K/9: 0.79, OBA: .259, OBP: .310, SLG: .401
SJ, we don’t know if Joba will be in the pen and, if he is, he’s still an uknown (the pen is not a cure-all for his lack of velocity and other issues he had last year). Logan? From what I’ve read on another board, he’s awful. I like Robertson a lot…..hopefully he’s healthy. I like Marte a lot….if he’s healthy.
Patrick, his #s in the AL are just not that special. Results are what matter, correct? And he wasn’t getting good ones in the AL? How is that good. One year in the NL, along with mediocre years in the AL, and he’s a stud pitcher.
How about relieve the Rangers of some salary and take on Josh Hamilton haha.
Andrew, you are absolutely right about how badly Ozzie handled Vazquez. In fact I’m amazed that he’s still employed. He constantly throw his team under the bus, something that the team owners don’t appear to have a problem with.
As far as Javy is concerned, he is now a Yankee which means that I’ll pull for him to succeed.
“How does the addition of Vazquez affect the win projection with using a replacement level player in LF?”
Off the top of my head I believe Vazquez will be 1.5-2 wins better than Hughes or Joba.
But even more importantly than the wins alone – he will be 1.5-2 wins better with considerably less variance in expected performance. And decreased variance translates into tangible value – decreased risk.
Also, if they move Joba or Hughes to the pen I’d believe that that will lead to the team picking up another 1-1.5 wins given leverage.
So on the whole I’d say that Vazquez will lead to a net pickup of 3 wins.
Melky already projected to be around replacement in LF next year. But let’s say that was an underestimate. Let’s say he was 0.5 wins better.
So on the whole I’d say Vazquez leads to around a 2.5-3 wins.
And that’s with a pure replacment level LF – which I don’t think the team will have. They’ll find someone in this market who could be around +1 wins in LF.
With Vazquez this is now a 96-97 win team in the AL East.
And that’s what I’ve wanted them to get to headed into the season.
Add a marginal LF who could be +1 wins – this is a 97-98 win team.
Which is what they were after they signed Tex.
Cashman knows what he’s doing. He knows who good he needs to build the team so that it can withstand 162 games in the AL East.
I don’t understand why some people are mad about this deal ?
I am not the biggest Javy fan but this deal was a steal, the Yankees didn’t give up much or pretty much anything at all for a pitcher. And on top of that unlike 2004 the Yankees are defending World Champions with a solid top 3 with Sabathia, Burnett, and Andy, and will still have some more pitching in the minors-zach mcallister.
Want to offset the loss of Vizcaino?
Sign Chapman.
You have to look at the big picture at what is going on in baseball and specifically in the American League.
The drug era is over. Teams know this and are now focusing on pitching and defense.
Think about all the offense that Boston has lost. I don’t care what you say, but there is a huge drop off offensively from Manny to Bay to Cameron. Ortiz isn’t what he was. Lowell is injured. Their projected 1b is Casey Kotchman.
With our pitching we should be more than able to handle that lineup. Maybe you pitch around Youk or Vmart in a big spot once in a blue moon. Otherwise, that lineup can be handled by good starting pitching.
Toronto, who still has some nice offensive pieces, has downgraded the rotation so our hitters should fatten up on them.
Tampa? They’re the same team they were last year essentially. I think they’re the most dangerous in the division if everyone performs they way they should. Still, that’s a lineup that strikes out a lot and we just added a strike out pitcher.
Baltimore? Wake me up when they are relevant again. They seem to change the plan from season to season.
The Angels are going to be a shell of the team that battled us this past year.
The Mariners? Love their 1-2 punch, but their offense doesn’t scare anyone. Keep Ichiro and Figgins off the bases and you beat them.
The Rays and the White Sox should probably be the toughest 2 teams in the league to beat.
We’re still leaps and bounds above them.
CC, AJ, Andy, Javy and Phil/Joba is a nasty rotation. It’s also a deep one should any injury befall us.
I can’t believe no other team didn’t have the chips to get Javy from ATL. The Angels certainly could have used him in a big way.
This is a great trade. It shows Cashman is looking at how the league and division is changing and he is preparing for that change proactively.
Here are the 3 year splits on the Yankee top four starters and I threw in John Lackey as well. It’s hard to believe some people are complaining about this deal.
JV ERA: 3.74, W:42, L:34, K/9: 1.01, OBA: .243, OBP: .289, SLG: .399
AP ERA: 4.25, W:43, L:31, K/9: 0.73, OBA: .279, OBP: .333, SLG: .410
AJ ERA: 3.97, W:41, L:27, K/9: 1.01, OBA: .239, OBP: .321, SLG: .382
CC ERA: 3.08, W:55, L:25, K/9: 0.91, OBA: .243, OBP: .288, SLG: .364
JL ERA: 3.08, W:42, L:22, K/9: 0.79, OBA: .259, OBP: .310, SLG: .401
—–
LOVE THIS POST!
Take notice haters.
“I like Joba, but Josh Johnson > Joba. Josh Johnson would be our #2 starter next year behind CC right now, he is that good.”
If the Yankees get Josh Johnson for Joba… then Cashman is gonna get some explicit finger gestures from the AL East + anyone who’s not associated w/ the Yankees.
“Or get Nelson Cruz from the Rangers?”
Cruz is a free agent. get your facts straight.
The Phranchise–One word: no. Or better, not a good idea.
at least Swisher has someone on the team who understand crazy Ozzie Guillen now
I’m cash.
I have a strategy.
I have options.
i want a LF.
I have a soft-cap budget.
I have moved some pieces on the chessboard.
I am calculating what i have left to spend.
Maybe I need a little more.
No problem.
i can still shed more pieces if i need too. They aren’t as critical to the plan.
Or I can do nothing for now,
and react to what my opponent may do.
Like a counter puncher.
Cash is Very, very smart.
the people around him are smart.
And he is proving he knows how to play.
no worries.
The Phranchise December 22nd, 2009 at 12:04 pm
How about relieve the Rangers of some salary and take on Josh Hamilton haha.
—
How about relieve the NY Rangers of some salary and take on Chris Drury
he did win the LLWS.
3 year splits with Javier in the NL. It is a bit skewed. AJ and CC were both completely lights out in the NL.
There is an advantage pitching there than in the AL which needs to be accounted for.
More importantly, is it officially “Bye Bye Wangy”?
Is chien Ming Wang still an option?
You can never have too much pitching. But…..
Just found out. Bold move, this obviously leaves LF and LHR to take care of, thought Dunn would be in the mix but let’s be honest. He was raw still
Losing Melky doesn’t really hurt. He projects to be 6 runs better than Jamie Hoffman over a full season (stolen from replacmentlevel blog).
The Yanks have a lot of options now. They can get a decent LF for 5-6 mill, they could trade Hughes or Joba for a stud young LF, they could stand pat with Hoffman and Gardner. Should be fun to see what happens.
We spent most of last year with one lefty (Coke) and had the best pen in baseball. Robertson has better numbers against lefties than righties anyway.
The two lefty thing is overrated, especially if one of the lefties sucks. Mike Dunn couldn’t hit the right side of a barn…
Rishi–lol
Nelson Cruz is not a free agent you fool!!
*BEFORE I WAS RUDELY INTERUPTED*
If the Yankees get Josh Johnson for Joba… then Cashman is gonna get some explicit finger gestures from the AL East + anyone who’s not associated w/ the Yankees.
And he has the Millwheel at his disposal.
he can grind things down if he so chooses.
Vizcaino is a horrible loss. Should’ve played your cards right cashman.
Dismissing him because of the level he’s got to is beyond obtuse. His is a special, special arm – and the Yankees could have secured their No. 4 spot in the rotation without losing Vizcaino.
How many “special, special arms” never make the majors because they get derailed by injury or stall at another level. Guys like Humberto Sanchez or Brein Taylor come to mind. Now I don’t know, maybe Vizcaino goes on to be the next King Felix but he’s got a long, long way to go before then.
More importantly, is it officially “Bye Bye Wangy”?
Is chien Ming Wang still an option?
You can never have too much pitching. But…..
—–
I don’t think so. And if it is so, it will be one Wang, not the Yanks. I’m pretty sure the Yanks want an opportunity to match any offer Wang gets and if its reasonable i say we do. Then it’s just a question if Wang wants to come back or not.
Wow, interesting move on Cashman’s part.
I gotta say, I like it. I remember being highly apprehensive about them trading Vazquez for Johnson after only one season. Didn’t make sense, especially since the Unit was not what he once was.
Best of luck to Melky Cabrera. He was definitely frustrating at times, but I liked the kid overall.
Well, looks like LF will continue to be an interesting topic.
Vote NO on Holliday.
“Joel Sherman had the Granderson trade and Vasquez trade before the other guys.
Took a big step forward this winter, probably ahead of Heyman now.
”
Not sure if he’s ahead of Heyman yet, but Sherman has been on fire this offseason.
We gave up Melky Cabrera, a lefty Jose Veras, and a Low-A pitcher.
What did you expect? Tim Lincecum?
For what we gave up, it is a steal of a trade. Why anyone is complaining is beyond me. Even if you don’t like Vasquez, the package we gave up is minuscule for a pitcher of his caliber.
I think CC-AJ-Andy-Javy against Beckett-Lackey-Lester-Dicek is an even matchup..All of these 8 pitchers have potential and can impact the AL east race.. Beckett is in his contract year.. so expect him to pitch much better than his prev seasons..
Everybody please calm down. One mistake about Nelson Cruz…come on, guys.
“Cruz is a free agent. get your facts straight.”
No he isn’t.
GreenBeret7
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Yeah, she does worry me. She has a large posse that takes offense at those who speak ill of her.
As you can see…I’m gaining more confidence in my spelling.
********************
LOL on the spelling
If she sends Kermit after you, watch out. You never want to make The Frog mad.
Yankees had said they will match any offer to Wang. Any offer will not be high dollar wise and the Yankees will more than likely be willing to gamble on him especially if they control him past this year under some sort of option. They won’t need him to start now. They could rehab him, start him in the minors and if healthy slot him right in in the back of the rotation after next year if he regains his form. He is still fairly young and when healthy is an innings eater which the yankees love.
Rishi
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:06 pm
at least Swisher has someone on the team who understand crazy Ozzie Guillen now
********************
LOL
If Joba comes into camp in shape, finds his missing velocity, and is motivated… there is an excellent shot that he wins the 5th starter spot over Hughes.
Don’t know why people are just giving it to Hughes… Cash said it would be a competition. If Joba is hungry and wants it, he has the talent to get it.
Will the human bullet be our everyday LF ?
I think not.
4th OF.
Not part of a Grandmasters plan.
Sorry Valeri, didn’t mean to pile on, I didn’t see that someone had already corrected you.
Wang possibly = Lieber from a few years ago. Signing him assuming he will not pitch next year.
Did Torre’s book say anything bad about Vasquez?
Boston Dave – XXVII
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:07 pm
More importantly, is it officially “Bye Bye Wangy”?
***************
I don’t think so. The Yankees have supposedly said they’ll match any offer he gets. We shall see…
I’m just teasing about the ALCS. Great trade. This likely means they go after Chapman and resign Damon.
Chip,
I agree re: Vizcaino.
No one knows whether this guy will shake out. Maybe he will, maybe he won’t. I’ll say this much, though: I trust guys like Mark Newman and Brian Cashman on decisions like these far more than I do the opinions of people on here.
These guys know what they’re doing.
If its any comfort, at least we know Vazquez is better than Ed Yarnall.
Two things -
Jim, I believe that K/IP not K/9 in your stats.
Ed, Nelson Cruz is NOT a FA.
Patrick-lol, no I didn’t say it in the first place. I just saw the comments and thought it was a bit much. no worries.
“Yankees had said they will match any offer to Wang”
That’s not exactly what they said.
Alex Anthropologist
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Vizcaino is a horrible loss. Should’ve played your cards right cashman.
HE IS A TEENAGE PROSPECT WHO HAS NEVER PITCHED ABOVE THE PENN LEAGUE, THERE IS NO GUARENTEE HE WILL EVEN EVER MAKE THE MAJORS LET ALONE BE A SUPERSTAR! HOW MANY PROSPECTS HAVE WE SEEN LOOK AMAZING IN THE LOWER LEVELS AND THEN JUST NEVER HEAR FROM THEM AGAIN
US Cellular Field is a launching pad. Chase Field in AZ is also a hitters park.
He is coming to a neutral park now. His numbers will look more like they did in Turner Field rather than US Cellular….
Just a footnote on Chamberlain/Hughes:
Cashman has prior (bad) experience with slotting in two youngsters into the rotation. Part of his strategy is also to create an OFF-SEASON, and spring training competition for the 5th spot.
You may not think much of their ceilings, but last year’s CF competition probably got as good as you could expect outta Cabrera/Gardner.
This is a very solid move on it’s own, but I have to think part of the motivation is lighting a fire under the duo NOW, particularly Chamberlain, that the 5th spot as to be WON, not inherited.
Probably been said already – but very funny to see both sides of a trade end up on the same team in the same off-season (in the same week!).
I asked this earlier, but does anyone know if the Chapman money goes against their luxury tax number? Just curious because if it doesn’t I would assume he is becoming a real possibility. Ultimately the payroll number they have is effected by the luxury tax they paid last year so any signing is that much more. I would assume that Chapman is like any other free agent and it would be included, but was wondering if anyone knew for sure how that works.
Want to offset the loss of Vizcaino? Sign Chapman
——————————————————-
good point. Lot of eggs to put in one basket. Unless the money for Chapman doesn’t come out of the regular IFA budget.
by the way, i would rather have Banuelos over Vizcaino
“Don’t know why people are just giving it to Hughes… Cash said it would be a competition. If Joba is hungry and wants it, he has the talent to get it.”
“If Joba is hungry and wants it…”??? Whaaaaat?
Just exactly who the expletive is Joba to decide whether he wants it or is hungry? IMO, Joba showed what he thought of the opportunity the Yankees gave him by coming to camp out of shape last year. Fool me once, etc. Joba is going to the pen unless Hughes flops or is hurt coming out of ST.
Probably been said already – but very funny to see both sides of a trade end up on the same team in the same off-season (in the same week!).
Who knows, maybe the Yankees swing a deal with the Angels for Juan Rivera.
Jeremy
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:04 pm
I don’t understand why some people are mad about this deal ?
=====
Because Vizcaino is considered to have the highest ceiling among all our system guys?
And he’s 19?
And he already can throw 96 and has a power curve that already is ML-worthy?
There were other roads to take that did not include giving up the arm in the system with the highest ceiling.
I am so disgusted, I am going to jump in the proverbial ocean and find myself a lobster to dance the quadrille with.
It won’t be a happy dance.
two guys not happy about Melky gone , AROD & Cano
“Cruz is a free agent. get your facts straight.”
Ed, think before you type. Or if you don’t want to think, at least check your facts.
“Adding a good to very good Vazquez with all of the innings has to compound the benefit to the Yankees. It also reduces the strain on the bullpen and allows for their maximum effectiveness.
Thoughts!”
I touched on the additional wins Vazquez brings in my post from 12:04.
But on a related point to your post is something fans don’t take into consideration enough – which is risk.
Vazquez has thrown close to 200 innings more more every year for close to a decade and has done so at levels far above what an average pitcher would do.
Sherman had a Tweet before that I think probably summed up the teams thinking very well:
“Key element with Vazquez: #Yankees worried about hvy loads of CC, AJ and Pettitte in ’09, and Vazquez at least 198IP every yr since 2000″d
“#Yanks felt could spend on SP or LF, and would rather be vulnerable in LF than rotation, so money on Vazquez not on LF”
I think these two issues were the driver here.
The team knows it is weak in LF but they would rather absorb risk in LF than to have any risk in the starting rotation. And they felt that way so they could reduce the stress on CC, AJ and Andy.
In this sense the value Vaquez is providing is two fold:
1. Risk stratification
2. Potential upside – because he’s a good to very good pitcher and not just an “innings eater.”
And the issue of risk stratification is one that doesn’t readily get directly absorbed into easily into the estimates people come up with before the season starts for how teams will do. This is true whether it’s an informal thing like a sports writer picking who they think will win the division or a sabermetrician who is doing a statistical projection.
http://tinyurl.com/aerofanaticNYY
25 man roster set with AAV of 195 million. There should be no problem finding a LF for 1 year at 5million.
Gardner becomes 4th OF, and the remaining 3 spots on the bench go to Cervelli, Pena, and Hoffman/Miranda
Cashman will wait on his LF…getting him at “his price” (1yr, 5 million). Similiar to NJ deal.
So whose it gonna be, for LF I mean ?
CASH:
FA
Trades-bargain bin
trades-full monty
How much does Cash want to spend, and how much does he have left ?
And most of all.
What is best for the overall
construction of the team ?
If I am Cash this year.
I want things on my terms within my values.
I will do the best I can but I will not get fleeced.
outcome uncertain.
best is known though.
Please, let’s stop lashing ourselves over the loss of a low A pitcher who was years away from the majors.
Once again Cashman has shown it’s about making the big league team better and winning a world series.
It’s not about wait and see prospect watching.
If this guy turns out to be a young Pedro Martinez then you can grim and grouse. At this point, he was a trade chip that could only help the big league club in a trade and not on the field.
I’m still waiting for that list of incredible prospects the Yankees have given up in recent years that has come back to haunt them.
I think the best names people could come up with were Marcus Thames and Dionner Navarro both of whom we can sign right now for pocket change.
by the way, i would rather have Banuelos over Vizcaino
====
How about both of them for about a decade?
Alas, alas…
Am I calculating this right that the payroll stands at 195 right now?
“The drug era is over.”
The “Performance-Enhancing” – drug era is over.
The “Mind Altering” – drug era is upon us.
See Lincecum, T. for details.
I’m surprised no one has mentioned what effect losing Melky will have on Cano. My guess is he’ll be fine.
“He is coming to a neutral park now. His numbers will look more like they did in Turner Field rather than US Cellular….”
Yes, the NYS is a neutral park but only because it depresses the amount of doubles and triples. Vazquez has a problem giving up too many homers so the new YS actually hurts him.
Florida needs to open up a spot in center or left field for Maybin. I would settle for NYY making a run at Ross or Pittsburgh’s Ryan Doumit for right field and move Swisher to left. He can’t provide any worse defense there than Damon.
May 2004 Yanks came to Oakland, Javy pitching; went to game expecting to be impressed with our new ace. Offense gave him big lead early which he proceeded to fritter away. He exited after going single, single, wild pitch, walk, bases loaded walk to the last four batters he faced. The walks were to the 8 and 9 hitters in a weak Oakland line up. His attitude struck me as “full mope.” Didn’t like what I saw and rest of ’04 obviously didn’t help.
Cashman does have a thing for proving that he was right so we’ll see how this round plays out. Absolutely needed a regular season innings eater but regret the player cost to bring Javy back.
rodg12 December 22nd, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Two things -
Jim, I believe that K/IP not K/9 in your stats.
====================
Yeah, you’re right, oops.
i think damon still believes he will return.
SJ44…….If – and I understand it’s probably not possible at this point but for argument’s sake- if the Yankees were able to pry Carl Crawford away from the Rays without giving up (what’s left of) the Farm, would you rather have Holiday in left field or Crawford?
Laura • Why aren’t more people watching FRINGE?
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:19 pm
I’m surprised no one has mentioned what effect losing Melky will have on Cano. My guess is he’ll be fine.
********************
Laura, that was touched on in the last thread. I think he’ll be fine too-he’s got a lot of friends on the team. I’m sure he’ll be sad to see his buddy go, though.
Joba’s missing velocity coming back is key. If it doesn’t come back, Hughes probably wins the job. If it does, Joba probably wins it.
If Joba is flinging 96-97 with the sharp slider in ST and is in shape, how would he not win the job?
I doubt they would just outright him to the pen if he looks better than Hughes.
Vazquez is one of the 3 pitchers in MLB who has won atleast 10 games in the last 10 years.. Can you name the other 2 ??
This was asked by Jason stark in Mike & Mike a few months back..
what you are getting from Vazquez is depth and quality at the back end of the rotation.. If he can pitch like last year, it would be great.. If he pitches like he has throughout his career he’s a very good #4 starter..
Sign Damon 1yr 12mil to play LF 2010…Sign Crawford next year for CF and move Granderson to LF…Swisher RF
Laura–yeah I thought of that. But I think (as of a while ago) they were roomies, so his living arrangements gonna have to change.
# Laura • Why aren’t more people watching FRINGE? December 22nd, 2009 at 12:19 pm
I’m surprised no one has mentioned what effect losing Melky will have on Cano. My guess is he’ll be fine.
——————————————
I said something about it back a ways…they were boys for sure
Blake-
Correct. The Yanks sit a hair under 195million for their 25 man roster.
“The “Mind Altering” – drug era is upon us.
See Lincecum, T. for details.”
Hey, bro. They been smokin’ the cheba for a long, long time now. Nothing new at all. Still, I can’t believe that an elite athlete smokes anything. It’s like scratching your own Rolls Royce with a key.
“Cashman will wait on his LF…getting him at “his price” (1yr, 5 million). Similiar to NJ deal”
——————————————————-
and i predict: VERY similar to the Abreu deal, last year. It is a buyer’s market, Cashman will walk away with a good LF’er at a bargain price.
I don’t look forward to the panic on this board, which will persist until a LF is signed
damon is not getting 12 mil for one year.
If people are right with their calculations about the budget, I don’t see Damon’s pride letting him sign a one year deal for 5mil.
Are we talking about the same vizciano?
Feinsand saying Yankees looking at DeRosa for LF.
Vasquez gave up 20 HRs in Turner Field and in a division with only one hitters park (Citizens Bank).
He gave up 23+ each year with the Chi Sox and 35 in the NL West!!! with 3 pitchers parks… SF, SD, LAD.
Now he is coming to the AL East, plays his home games in a park that gives up a ton of HRs. Plays road games in 2 hitters parks like Camden Yards and Fenway.
He is going to be a disaster here with the long balls…
Just put Johnny back in left and we’re all set.
“I’m surprised no one has mentioned what effect losing Melky will have on Cano. My guess is he’ll be fine”
—————————————————-
it was already covered
Damon will get a little over Matsui $$$$$$$$$
Do the math.
project his numbers.
chop some deadwood.
raise the total available for a move.
Can i get to Holliday value ?
Will Boras succumb.
or do I have enough so i can rest a bit, and shoot lower ?
Hey Boras, “who’s your daddy ?”
I hope so.
otherwise it’s the rest of the process.
that wouldn’t be quite as good but still great.
Cash spends the money.
what will he be able to do ?
My two cents on all the goings-on (didn’t realize there was already a new thread) –
The deal is a good one for the Yankees. Melky was a good guy and solid player and young as well, but he’s frankly a fourth outfielder, especially on the Yank. Dunn has promise and Vizcaiano has a very high ceiling, but he’s several years away. My only concern is we gave away too much long-term. The argument that we could have/should have held our chips and gone out and gotten Sheets makes some sense, but it’s not a bad gamble. I’ll take my chances on Vazquez, who’ll either thrive or dive. If all that AL-NL talk is true and he sucks, it’s one year and out, and we’ll probably get draft picks out of it with which we can re-stock the minors.
Holliday or Damon. Either works for me. For the sake of retaining some of the 2009 team chemistry, and if the Yankees really need to keep the budget in check, then by all means bring back Johnny. But if we open the piggy bank a little for Hollidaym, that’s fine, too. My bleacher seats will still cost the same $14 next season even if we go a few million over budget.
Joba and Phil. I like both these guys, but I’ve felt since first seeing them play in Scranton that Joba was a reliever and Phil was a starter. It seems, just reading the pulse of the Yankees, that management feels that way as well. Plus, we’ve now given up some solid relievers, making Joba all the more important as part of the bridge to Mo. And one day, it pains me to say, Mo will hang it up, and it may fall to Joba to fill that role. Better he prep for it now, while Mo is there to provide counsel and leadership by example.
Cashman. There’s a lot of Cash-bashing going on on LoHud. I’d like to point out that we WON the freakin’ World Series this past season. Hello. And a lot of that was thanks to Cashman’s guidance, patiences and wheeling-dealing. Do I think the guy walks on water? No. But he pushed the right buttons last year and I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
On other matters: Fringe is awesome; watch it, folks! And also, happy holidays, everyone.
Erin
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:10 pm
GreenBeret7
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Yeah, she does worry me. She has a large posse that takes offense at those who speak ill of her.
As you can see…I’m gaining more confidence in my spelling.
********************
LOL on the spelling
If she sends Kermit after you, watch out. You never want to make The Frog mad.
————————————————————
That would make quite a dinner…pork chops a rack of BBQ ribs and frog’s legs.
Suddenly, I feel like the spirit of Doc Hopper is overtaking me.
I still think if their plan is to sign Crawford next year then they would be better off signing holliday this year. Stopgaps are a waste of money unless you are actually holding the spot for someone.
Now he is coming to the AL East, plays his home games in a park that gives up a ton of HRs. Plays road games in 2 hitters parks like Camden Yards and Fenway.
He is going to be a disaster here with the long balls…
__
as long as they are solo homeruns, its fine.
Bill Pulsipher
Paul Wilson
Jason Isringhausen
Brein Taylor
Humberto Sanchez
Jeremy Bonderman
Ryan Anderson
Kris Benson
Jaret Wright
The list of highly touted prospect pitchers who never lived up to the hype is a lot longer than the list of ones who did.
Even if we assume that this kid would have a major league career someday – odds are, given where he’s been pitching, it wasn’t going to be for at least three or four years from now. In the meantime the Yankees have a slew of pitching prospects ahead of him: Brackman, Mitchell, Buneuelos, Hughes, Bleich, etc… – plus they may sign Chapman, they also will likely draft high caliber arms, and sign others in the FA market. Bottom line, he’s replaceable.
If, four years from now, Vizciano is being mentioned in the same breath as Greinke and Felix Hernandez, and the Yankees rotation is a shambles – feel free to pan the trade then. But the bottom line is that Cashman has vastly improved this team and done so by sacrificing only 1 key prospect (Jackson), 2 middle relievers, 1 pitcher coming off injury, a fourth outfielder who had been pressed into everyday service and a prospect who is far too far away to accurately project.
Impatient for a LF?
Iago:
“How poor are they that have not patience!
What wound did ever heal but by degrees?
Thou know’st we work by wit, and not by witchcraft;
And wit depends on dilatory time.”
Othello (II, iii, 376-379)
testing…
What’s Fringe about? The commercials don’t say much.
Interesting, so if you put links in your post, you have to wait for it to be moderated?
get DeRosa he can play all over & his price had to come down…
I for one, don’t care for football numbers on players.
Phil Hughes likes a number with a 5 in it. Give him No. 35.
Jose Moline is gone. Give Joba No. 26.
Cashman doesnt work on a whim.
he clearly sees something in vasquez the rest of us dont see when it comes to his issues in the AL.
only if you put more than 1 link in a post
My log saw something last night.
Isn’t DeRosa too expensive?
Murph-
you are on it !
I respect the differences of opinion but this was a very good trade for the Yankees, giving up a 4th OF’er for an innings eater, strikeout, low WHIP [1.02], pitching for his next contract, who pitched very well against the Phillies last year, as well as in the 2nd half of the season.
Now I would have complained if we had gotten Lowe, even if the Braves paid most of his salary and gave up Swisher.
I doubt Gardner or Hoffmann will be our starting LF next year, but whatever happens, now we saved the chips that could be used come the July trading deadline to trade for a Cliff Lee or Josh Johnson.
Count me in and now excited about this trade!!
Now I wouldn’t be too upset if the Yankees got a creative deal that netted them Holliday for the Holidays!!!!!!
“till, I can’t believe that an elite athlete smokes anything. It’s like scratching your own Rolls Royce with a key.”
You’d be surprised at how many big leaguers smoke weed
Out of the relevant teams the one that has thus far had a disastrous off season is the Angels.
Oh, I just put links to baseball-reference.com and fangraphs.com for David DeJesus. Perhaps some sites could be automatically allowed?
Can we get DeRosa for 2/10?
End this nonsense with Damon and bring him back on a 2 year, 20 million dollar deal. Payroll stays in virtually the same exact range as last year.
1) Jeter, SS
Swisher, RF
2) Damon, LF
3) Teixeira, 1B
4) Rodriguez, 3B
5) Posada, C
6) Granderson, CF
7) Cano, 2B
9) Johnson, DH
SP1) Sabathia
SP2) Pettitte
SP3) Burnett
SP4) Vazquez
SP5) Hughes/Chamberlain
Bullpen: Rivera, Robertson, Marte, Melancon, Aceves, Gaudin
With 1 of Hughes/Chamberlain in AAA until the inevitable injury.
GreenBeret7
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:27 pm
That would make quite a dinner…pork chops a rack of BBQ ribs and frog’s legs.
Suddenly, I feel like the spirit of Doc Hopper is overtaking me.
****************
That’s awful, but I can’t help but laugh!
Don’t be like Doc Hopper-he is a terrible man!!
It’s Damon or Reed Johnson for left unless Hal allows some overage.
“If, four years from now, Vizciano is being mentioned in the same breath as Greinke and Felix Hernandez, and the Yankees rotation is a shambles – feel free to pan the trade then.”
Similarly, over those four years, consider how many rings the Yankees may have put themselves in contention for by this move. Do you seize the moment or pass, on the statistically improbable chance that any young arm matures into CC Sabathia or Sandy Koufax?
Derosas value is in that he can play multiple positions. If you make him a full time LFer then much of that value goes out the window.
they can do better than him…pass
OK, my bad. i failed.
Stolen from Twitter but very cute….
There’s no use cryin over dealt Melk.
“Out of the relevant teams the one that has thus far had a disastrous off season is the Angels”
————————————————
yup. They completely dismantled. And it couldn’t happen to a better team
I want to hear Mike Sccosia make some bold statements now
Valerie, Fringe is very similar to the X-Files except it’s got more of a family element to it. And the acting is better. You should check it out.
pat–lol nice (but sad)
jennifer
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Out of the relevant teams the one that has thus far had a disastrous off season is the Angels.
********************
Well, they did get Matsui, so at least they’ve got that going for them
Ledger_Yankees Damon: “All I can say is I love New York. and I have to see what shakes out.”
32 minutes ago from TweetDeck
Anyone wondering why it’s taking so long to officially announce the signing of Johnson?
BryanHoch Yankees officially announce Javier Vazquez trade.
2 minutes ago from Power Twitter
Ed:
isn’t it amazing how many people love our boy Matsui now. Compared to this same time, last year?
Laura–thanks. Is it a jump-in-in the middle or should I watch from the beginning?
The Yanks can do better – if they trade Mitre ($1.5 mil) or Gaudin ($2 mil) then they can sign a LF for $7 mil and still be under/at the $200 mil cap (Damon?)
Hey Heyman, how about askinkg Santa for a new Blackberry.
LOL
Facts:
- Cash has done one heck of a job so far.
- JV is a great addition to the rotation (especially when you consider the other options available)
- Yanks are positioning for next year (financially).
- Melky will be missed sure, how much he is missed depends on who his OF replacement is and how well JV pitches.
- Cash has manipulated ‘market value’ by exactly what he is doing. Intentionally, or not.
Holliday:
5/82 for Holliday is a steal for whichever team gets him (although I think it will be slightly more).
In MH’s eyes 5/82 is a big difference than what Boras projected. One might view that as a discount.
If MH is going to sign for a *discount, he’ll do everything in his power for it to be the team that is his first choice.
Hope to have a better update later..
for one, don’t care for football numbers on players.
Phil Hughes likes a number with a 5 in it. Give him No. 35.
Jose Moline is gone. Give Joba No. 26.
__
no way. they are recognized as 62 and 65. its their identity now. Stick with it.
Remember.
it’s a MACHINE. a machine has parts.
for the machine to do it’s job
all the parts must work harmoniously.
And they MUST work within specification or it will not
be able to function well.
Cash is designing our MACHINE.
He will make damn sure that it is well constructed, able to function within specs.
He knows it would fail otherwise.
The INDIVIDUAL parts do not matter as long as they are designed to make the MACHINE work according to design.
Translation:
Cash is gonna cover it.
He’s almost there already.
The Angels will be lucky to finish 3rd.
I cannot wait to hear all the Joba bullpen lovers have a heart attack when it is Hughes that goes to the pen.
Seriously guys?
Quit complaining. This is how it works out. We were all expecting a ex-injury recovery job pitcher like Sheets…instead we got a striking out CY Young candidate. True it was in the AAAA league…but he will still at least do a decent job as 4th starter and at best be an All-Star. We gave up an average player (Melky) who didn’t have
anywhere to play.
There are only two big losses from this deal in my books:
1) Arod2 – he could be good…dunno. But it was worth trading away a question mark like him in this situation.
2) No more “The Melk-Man delivers”…which was one of my favorite John Sterling calls….at least we got “It’s a Grand-erson slam” now.
“Anyone wondering why it’s taking so long to officially announce the signing of Johnson?”
it could be annouced today.
“Well, they did get Matsui, so at least they’ve got that going for them”
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that’s true Erin. There big move this off-season. He do not look right in that uni
From MLB-Rumors-R-Us.
Yankees Will Try To Trade Gaudin Or Mitre
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [December 22 at 10:24am CST]
Now that they’re set to acquire Javier Vazquez, the Yankees have a surplus of pitching. Joel Sherman of the New York Post says (via Twitter) that the Yanks will try to trade Chad Gaudin or Sergio Mitre before Spring Training ends to free up some money.
Both pitchers will become free agents after the season. Mitre earned $1.25MM last year, striking out 32 batters in 51.2 innings for a 6.79 ERA (5.40 FIP). Gaudin earned $2MM, striking out 139 in 147.1 innings and allowing just 146 hits for an ERA of 4.64 (4.16 FIP). Gaudin would figure to have some value on the trade market.
Setting Vizcaino aside for the moment.
Javy and Yankee Stadium are not the greatest of fits.
Let’s hope he has a great year – and we let him walk to the tune of two type As in the draft.
Jose Ramirez – with great hopes, I turn my lonely eyes to you….woo, woo, wooo…
Sorry, Valerie. You have to start from the beginning if you want the full picture of what’s going on.
“isn’t it amazing how many people love our boy Matsui now. Compared to this same time, last year?”
LOL I know, soo many people were against it last year when we brought up Johnson’s name. Yeah there still are right now, but not much.
vinny-b (NJ and Granderson – thank you Cashman!)
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:37 pm
“Well, they did get Matsui, so at least they’ve got that going for them”
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that’s true Erin. There big move this off-season. He do not look right in that uni
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vinny, I know what you mean. I get very sad whenever I see him in that red hat.
“You’d be surprised at how many big leaguers smoke weed”
Actually, no. I wouldn’t be surprised. While I acknowledge the fact that they do, I just cannot get how they allow themselves to do it. I guess they get to the point where they take their gifts for granted and assume they will always be so much better than the competition, that heir dominance of Little League, High School, College and the Minors will continue into The Show. Having no talent whatsoever myself, I cannot fathom compromising that gift just to get high.
Laura–no problem lol. Thanks!! And happy holidays!
i dont want either of joba or hughes to go to the pen. altho they have nothing to learn there one should go to AAA to stay stretched out
I’m fine with giving up Melky, but giving up a potential stud SP? Who do we have in the minors that is that highly regarded…..aside from Banuelos? That hurts.
Upon first hearing this deal, I didn’t like it at all. Not because of what we gave up, although I do like Melky. But because I don’t fully trust Vazquez, and if we were going to push Joba or Hughes out of the rotation, I would have liked to have somebody else.
After thinking about it, though, they did acquire a decent pitcher and they still do have Joba and Hughes in case Javy is terrible.
DeJesus is an excellent fielding LF’er bats lefty and hits .290 against lefties, with some power and a very favorable 4.6M contract with a club option for 2011. This might be the way to go that would allow us to free up contracts for the 2010 FA class, and keep us within budget, allowing us to have budget room for a midseason pickup if needed.
“Florida needs to open up a spot in center or left field for Maybin. I would settle for NYY making a run at Ross or Pittsburgh’s Ryan Doumit for right field and move Swisher to left. He can’t provide any worse defense there than Damon.”
GB:
I would love to have Ross as the LFer. He has a decent glove, and could be clutch. However, I’m still hoping for Willingham.
The Vasquez/Johnson acquisitions prove out a rule many of us are already aware of.
Yankees can only acquire superstars if they’re slated for significant, or a large part of the fanbase will be bitterly disappointed.
They acquired the #1 starter from a team that won 86 games last year and are slating him as their 4th starter, which all but assures the Yanks of avoiding the revolving waiver wire/C-level prospect door that’s been the Yankees 5th starting slot for a few years now.
Javy Vasquez would be starting opening day for MOST ML teams next season.
Signing off now, folks…Happy Holidays!!!
Just to set the record straight; Joba is real good, but Phil is the real deal. Hughes will be a future Cy Young winner. Joba would never be more than a number 2 or 3. I wouldnt even let him compete for a starting job. I’d make him a reliever right on day 1 of 2010 spring training. Then again, Phil has an innings limit for 2010.
Lost-
I have not waivered.
But I cannot know the size of Cash’s checkbook.
Will Boras capitulate ?
hope so.
Cash has a value.
hoping for a match.
I await your update.
Signed,
fly on the wall.
MTU:
I can see your lips moving but I don’t hear anything coming out!
Wow!! Just got in and i missed a whole lot of action. I think this was a complete steal from the Yankees. For the people who are saying its bad because the Yanks gave up too much for a 1 year deal. Ask yourselves one question. What makes you think this is only going to be a 1 year deal? Have the Yankees ever lost out on a player that was already on their team and they wanted him back?
As far as Damon goes. HELL NO!! He sucks in the outfield and his ship has sailed the second Johnson was signed.
I expect an early present for the HOLLIDAYS..
High School, College and the Minors will continue into The Show. Having no talent whatsoever myself, I cannot fathom compromising that gift just to get high.
____________________
Perhaps because they were smoking weed on all those places too.
new post
Until I’m proven wrong I still believe either Holliday or Damon will be in LF next year. Holliday is at such a discount right now they may not be able to pass it up.
Time will tell, if Holliday comes off the board I think Damon still really wants to play for the Yanks and may lower his demands after he seesthere is no market for him elsewhere.
Carl
I want to examine those homerun numbers. A lot of pitchers give up a number of homeruns. Heck Schilling when he was with the Diamonbacks in 2001 led the league in giving up homeruns in the NL West though the majority of those homeruns were solo shots.
Until I’m proven wrong I still believe either Holliday or Damon will be in LF next year. Holliday is at such a discount right now they may not be able to pass it up.
Time will tell, if Holliday comes off the board I think Damon still really wants to play for the Yanks and may lower his demands after he seesthere is no market for him elsewhere.
Peter R
December 22nd, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Seriously guys?
Quit complaining.
===
Seriously Peter Rabbit?
Quit trying to dictate the discourse.
Just because you think Vizcaino is a washed up relief pitcher from the NL doesn’t mean people who actually pay attention to the system should do a tap dance that the Yanks parted ways with a stud RHP.
There is gravity there and if that doesn’t have a right to be expressed in a Yankee forum, what’s the purpose of one?
I just heard that Brian Cashman has robbed the Atlanta Braves and did not use a weapon……Outstanding trade….Posada will be happy about Vasquez coming back, he always thought he was hurt in the 2nd half of 04……..I see Joba to the pen, Hughes in the 5 slot, and does Johnny come marching home, or will they go all in on Matt Holiday……..Very goOd day for the Yanks
“Gaudin earned $2MM, striking out 139 in 147.1 innings and allowing just 146 hits for an ERA of 4.64 (4.16 FIP). Gaudin would figure to have some value on the trade market.”
Gaudin, I think, has value to the 2010 team. He can be the long man and spot starter. If there proves to be little need for that, his splits show he is very effective against RHB, and could be a very valuable matchup weapon from the 6th to 8th innnings.
“I cannot wait to hear all the Joba bullpen lovers have a heart attack when it is Hughes that goes to the pen.”
Performance is all that matters but attitude is inextricably bound to performance as a precursor. I’m not a Joba bullpen lover, I am a “respect the game and yourself and your team” lover. I hate a kid that’s spoiled, out of shape, and taking his chance for granted. If that’s Joba, so be it. It’s definitely not Phil.
Weed doesn’t really affect your talent unless you are doing it at game time. The worse thing it does it make you lazy, hungry and of course can be bad for your lungs. Don’t let the anti-drug scare mongers get you. Weed has no real long term effects and should not even be considered with the coke, heroin and LSD type stuff.
In fact it is categorized as a performance enhancing drug in some cases.
“5/82 for Holliday is a steal for whichever team gets him (although I think it will be slightly more). ”
I thought the yanks signing Holliday was a 20-30% chance before today.
Now I’d say it’s a 5% chance.
Nonetheless, whoever signs Holliday at this point will get a great value.
And if the yankees pass on Holliday his year at around 5/82 I really hope they have another plan than signing carl crawford next year.
Seriously Peter Rabbit?
Quit trying to dictate the discourse.
Just because you think Vizcaino is a washed up relief pitcher from the NL doesn’t mean people who actually pay attention to the system should do a tap dance that the Yanks parted ways with a stud RHP.
There is gravity there and if that doesn’t have a right to be expressed in a Yankee forum, what’s the purpose of one?
===
Peter Rabbit? Really is this 1st grade?
I wasn’t trying to dictate anything. All I was trying to say was it was worth giving up a average player with no real Yankee future and a question mark prospect pitcher for someone who will likely be a decent number 4 starter and maybe much more.
I am sorry if my slight against the clearly inferior National League got you upset.
The Angels will be lucky to finish 3rd
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Laura I hope they do, but they are still a good team. Four pretty solid starters with Palmer as the 5th. Matsui replacing Vlad. Still have speed and a tough lineup. Relief staff is mediocre.
Seattle has no first baseman no starters after their first three and troublemaker Milton Bradley, plus other holes to fill.
I have real concerns over making a run at Crawford in 2010. His legs have taken a beating for a long time on that turf. Once his speed diminishes, he’s an average player at a high cost.
Can we have a discussion about Joba without all the hope dreams and hype and put-downs and name calling? Don’t get me wrong, I’m a Joba fan, and I’m really glad he wasn’t traded. But does he really have the potential to be a top starter? Are we focusing so much on that 1 relief year we are denying his true potential?
He has had the occasional SP stellar game. The problem is he was rushed into the Majors so fast he didn’t really have the chance to learn how to pitch. Because of this he relies too much on his primary pitch; when it’s off he is inconsistent and at times unreliable. Are his other pitches good enough to help him be a top flight SP in the AL? I’m not sure.
I like his aggressive attitude and style, but at times it deserts him and he becomes hesitant and flails. His aggressiveness doesn’t automatically make him more suitableto be in the pen; some of the best starters have been this way.
All things added up, I’m starting to think if he has greatness in his future, it is in the pen rather than the starting rotation.
Good move by Cash. Pitching is now set. Bullpen is now set. Bench is close and left field we can go with Brett or there plenty of options..keep checking into Marlon Byrd nice reasonable option and definetly an upgrade.
LOL at people calling this winter a disappointment.
Patrick December 22nd, 2009 at 12:19 pm
“He is coming to a neutral park now. His numbers will look more like they did in Turner Field rather than US Cellular….”
Yes, the NYS is a neutral park but only because it depresses the amount of doubles and triples. Vazquez has a problem giving up too many homers so the new YS actually hurts him.
============================
Javier’s HR/9 are not good but also not terrible. Actually comparable to AJ’s #’s over the last 3 years. Again throwing in Lackey for fun.
CC 0.71
AJ 1.02
AP 0.81
JV 1.03
JL 0.97
Also, great points about JV and his propensity for giving up HRs – that will work out well in YS for sure.
Cash has been doing a good job.
I really like the JV addition to the starting rotation.
I hate to even bring it up, because I like him so much, but the guy I worry about in the rotation is Andy Petitte.
Will he make it through the year?
I sure hope his back holds up for the entire year.
Having a glut of back-end rotation pitchers will prove beneficial if Andy struggles or if there is an injury, so I unless it brings us a MLB caliber LF in a trade, I’m in favor of keeping Gaudin & Mitre around.
We would still have Aceves/Joba/Phil for back end too.
Joba will be the starter and Hughes the reliever….Joba has a higher ceiling than Phil…it is what it is….Joba is ready to give us 200 dominate innings in the #5 hole and Hughes will be insurance in Jun when AJ goes down for a month(you know it’s coming). the smart thing would be to use Hughes as the swing man and try to get him 50-65pitches per appearence so that he can be stretched out to 100 if need arises…
Boddi
trading Vizcaino hurt everyone in the org I’m sure but is made easier I think because of what Jose Ramirez did last year…not to mention Brett Marshall,Stoneburner,Barreda,Banuelos,Garcia and Chapman when we introduce him….
Javy allows us to defend next years title and we still keep Nova,Noesi,DJ,Heredia….the depth of pitching in the org is actually embarassing once you study it.
Cash is in the Zone right now!
bod,
I appreciate your POV on Arodys. I personally feel it’s a cost worth paying for an established front end starter… but your opinion is a worthy one.
Brian Taylor was supposed to have a huge ceiling and be a cant miss prospect either but what happened, he hurt himself and was never the same thats why you cant hug your prospects so tight they suffocate