It’s official: Nick’s back
Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Dec 23, 2009 
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Nick Johnson has passed his physical.
UPDATE, 12:15 p.m.: Chad here. Figured I would throw this up at the top of the post instead of beneath the press release.
One interesting moment from yesterday’s Javier Vazquez conference call came at the very end, when Brian Cashman was more or less asked why he didn’t simply bring back the pieces from the 2009 Yankees. If he wanted to, it seems Cashman could have simply stuck with Melky Cabrera, re-signed Andy Pettitte, Johnny Damon and Hideki Matsui, and agreed to take a chance on Chien-Ming Wang’s recovery. Instead, there’s a good chance only one of those five will be back in pinstripes next season.
“Some players removed themselves from our ability to re-sign based on the contract discussions that were taking place,” Cashman said. “That happened both with players we had on this roster who elected free agency, as well as players in the current marketplace who we like and like a lot.”
It’s hard to hear or read those words and not think Cashman was refering to Damon. It seems the Yankees set a pretty firm limit on the amount of dollars and years they were willing to give their free agent left fielder, and they were able to hold that line because they had already reeled in Curtis Granderson, and because they had Nick Johnson on the hook. I know a lot of people prefer Damon — and it seems even more people prefer Matsui — but it’s hard to deny that Johnson can help this lineup with his ability to reach base. Injury is obviously a concern, but it’s not as though Damon or Matsui would have come without health concerns of their own.
Here’s the press release from the Yankees.
NEW YORK YANKEES SIGN DH/1B NICK JOHNSON TO ONE-YEAR CONTRACT
The New York Yankees today signed designated hitter / first baseman Nick Johnson to a one-year contract.
Johnson, 31, was third in the Majors in 2009 with a .426 on-base percentage in 133 combined games with Washington and Florida, trailing only American League MVP Joe Mauer (.444) and National League MVP Albert Pujols (.443). He placed sixth in the NL with 99 walks, while batting a career-high .291 (133-for-457) with 24 doubles, two triples, eight home runs and 62 RBI.
The Sacramento native began 2009 with the Nationals, batting .295 (104-for-353) with six home runs, 44 RBI and a .408 on-base percentage in 98 games before being traded with cash on July 31 to the Marlins in exchange for left-handed pitcher Aaron Thompson. In 35 games with Florida, he hit .279 (29-for-104) with two home runs, 18 RBI, 36 walks and a .477 on-base percentage.
Johnson’s .402 career on-base percentage since his Major League debut in 2001 is eighth among players with at least 3,000 plate appearances over the span.
He had his best overall season in 2006 with Washington, batting .290 (145-for-500) and posting career highs in games played (147), plate appearances (628), at-bats, hits, doubles (46), home runs (23), RBI (77), stolen bases (10) and walks (110). His .428 on-base percentage was a career best and the second-highest single-season mark in Washington franchise history behind Tim Raines’ .429 in 1987. Despite the numerous career highs, Johnson’s season was cut short on September 23, 2006, by a fractured right femur, which forced him to miss the entire 2007 season.
Johnson, who is a left-handed batter, is a .292 (190-for-650) career hitter with 16 home runs and a .424 on-base percentage against left-handed pitching and a .266 (503-for-1,889) career hitter with 73 home runs and a .394 on-base percentage against right-handed pitching. He owns a .992 career fielding percentage, having committed just 48 errors in 5,719 career chances.
He began his professional career in the Yankees organization after being selected by the club in the third round of the 1996 First-Year Player Draft. In three Major League seasons with the Yankees from 2001-03, he batted .256 (197-for-769) with 36 doubles, 31 home runs, 113 RBI, 125 walks and a .376 on-base percentage. He posted a team-leading .422 on-base percentage in his final year with the club before being traded on December 4, 2003, with outfielder Juan Rivera and left-handed pitcher Randy Choate to the Montreal Expos in exchange for right-handed pitcher Javier Vazquez.
In eight Major League seasons with the Yankees, Montreal/Washington (2004-06, ’08-09) and Florida (2009), he owns a .273 career batting average (693-for-2,539) with 165 doubles, five triples, 89 home runs, 379 RBI, 27 stolen bases and 487 walks.
The Yankees’ 40-man roster now stands at 38 players.
Perhaps this is the imminent signing Cashman was referencing last night on MLB Network?
Verducci said that there was one coming and it would likely be either DeRosa, Dye or Vlad to play the OF.
Welcome Back… (help me out with the lyrics, guys)
Now we can call it the NTNYA Contest. C’mon guys. Test your wits against Cashman.
Damon: Rich, Erin
Dye: Mike in RI
Holliday: MTU (stuffing the ballot box with 25 online votes)
Welcome Back NJ!
“•ESPN’s Keith Law rated David Ortiz signing with Boston as the best free agent pickup of the decade. Darren Dreifort’s deal with the Dodgers was the worst, and he called the Erik Bedard trade the biggest of the decade. That last one is certainly debatable; I prefer the Bartolo Colon for Grady Sizemore (plus others) deal.”
While Law is right about Ortiz, he should have included the words “David Ortiz and his needles signing with Boston as the best free agency pickup of the decade.”
Nick the Stick, gonna have a big year in that park…
Yay!!
Aww, I’m so happy for Nick – it’s obvious that he wanted to be back, even taking the Yanks gig over more lucrative opportunities. I’m really excited to see what he can do. It will be a nice reunion for Jeter, Andy, Mo and Po as well.
m
put me down for Johnny D
just say no to Vlad
-I hope that he’s worth the money by staying healthy and contributing with his High OBP and cluth hits like Matsui did.
How was the Alex Rodriguez trade not the biggest trade of the decade simply because of the enormity of the player being moved?
CR9….People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones
Let’s be honest, no way he failed his physical. Yankees have to assume given his history he will not put in a full season here. Although it might help if he was in shape coming into the season as well.
Kate -
In that interview Cashman was asked point blank about Damon and said, “no, we wish Johnny the best going forward but at this point I think it’s fair to say that we’re parting ways.”
I’m saying it again. Get used to the name Jermaine Dye in RF this year. He will be the cheapest option and at the price the best fit. Whether you like him or not.
I’m beginning to think DeRosa in LF since the team needs an emergency 3b to insure Arod’s hip condition.
Crawford in 2011.
Damon: Rich, Erin, upstate kate
Dye: Mike in RI, Phranchise
Holliday: MTU (stuffing the ballot box with 25 online votes)
====================================
Rich,
I thought that was pretty mean of Cashman. But he has his reasons for saying it. To push Damon away? To make him accept the challenge?
I don’t think Damon would have the problem. But he might thrive better on another team if he were playing with a chip on his shoulder.
Chip
yeah I know, I heard that too. I think the signing of NJ sealed his fate…but until he signs somewhere else or Cash gets another LF it could still happen.
Pena fits the bill at third base. DeRosa looking for a multi year deal. Dye goes in RF and has an arm, solves their problem with finding a 5th place hitter and Swish moves over to left field where his arm is hidden a bit better. Nick Johnson is you backup firstbaseman. Pena is you utility infielder. And they also have guys in the minors.
Welcome back, NJ.
The OBP is all one could wish for……….
Now, where did I put that NJ and Sori poster from the Navigators?
Alert !
I’m changin’ my position on Holliday.
I have found the PERFECT solution for LF instead.
I have decided after giving it a great of thought, and trying to think outside the box
That
the position will just have to be left VACANT.
until next year.
We can revisit the idea again at that time.
My only real concerns are the effects it might have on the Yankees Offense and Defense.
And on the void it may leave going forward.
This is really the BEST solution I can come up with.
And I think it will work for everyone.
“Perhaps this is the imminent signing Cashman was referencing last night on MLB Network?”
————————————–
of course it was. It was what Cashman was referring to.
have no idea who Verducci was referencing. Others on this board claim Verducci has lost all his NYY connections
And my proposed solution also includes:
PJO, or MMO as filler.
Put me down for Holliday, m. One can only hope…
I’m saying it again. Get used to the name Jermaine Dye in RF this year. He will be the cheapest option and at the price the best fit. Whether you like him or not.
—————————-
He wouldn’t be that bad but I prefer Vlad though.
And that keith law is stupid ! A-Rod’s trade was the biggest of this decade. Two All-stars players were traded and they both contributed on their teams and keep doing so.
If Nick is healthy this whole season (fingers crossed) I can see him hitting 25-30 HR this year. Look at how Damon’s HR total jumped. He’ll also be hitting in front of two of the best hitters in the AL. Lots of pitches to hit.
M, lol – I don’t think I’m picky at all. I just don’t like Gardner. Stuckey, I have to think about that…MTU, thanks!
Chip, darn – is Kim still on? Does she have any insight into what the Yankees plan to do with LF?
Swisher is not suited for LF.
Rob L.
December 23rd, 2009 at 11:30 am
CR9….People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones”
What does that mean? Not the line, the context?
I’m not shocked by Johnson’s .402 career OBP. I’m only shocked that he’s been healthy enough to qualify for 3,000 plate appearances.
“How was the Alex Rodriguez trade not the biggest trade of the decade simply because of the enormity of the player being moved?”
—————————————————-
will take the Indians-Expos trade
Vlade’s issue is his back and therefore now his needs. Plus Vlade sees almost no pitches and swings at pretty much anything. I’m not saying Dye doesn’t swing, but Vlade is maybe the most aggressive hitter which doesn’t suit the Yankees mold. And again putting a guy out there like him goes against throwing Damon back out there or trying Matsui in the OF. None of them have proven they can play in the field. With Nick Johnson on board, you need an OFer who plays the field.
Also if Nady proves healthy it is possible that he could fit the bill in a rotation with Swish and Gardner.
“He wouldn’t be that bad but I prefer Vlad though.”
Oh, yes he would. Dye’s skills in the field are declining. They might as well have signed Damon.
Betsy-
If you do you will see its many advantages.
Great outside the box thinking.
Mick has pointed out earlier.
that it also immediately solves our Budget problem.
The idea has alot of merit.
Should we take a poll on it ?
Betsy,
As the great Peter Gammons once said (he really did), if you can’t root for Brett Gardner, you’re not a true baseball fan.
______________________________________
GTNY Update:
Damon: Rich, Erin, upstate kate, erica (duh!)
Dye: Mike in RI, Phranchise
Holliday: rodg12, MTU (stuffing the ballot box with 25 online votes)
Forget about Vlad. He’s no longer a fielder and the DH spot is taken.
NYY is not signing Vlad. If Cashman wanted a subpar OF’er, Matsui and Abreu would still be on the team
m-
You’re not keepin up on my POV.
I have changed my vote to VACANT w. PJO, or MMO.
Get it straight.
Per a poster on NYYFans:
Cashman was on with Davis and Bowden on XM this morning and if you listen between the words no Holliday or Bay but they are looking at other LF options. Bowden interpreted it as being Damon also still in play.
Blake, I disagree. The Yankees are going to be good for a long time….I don’t believe 2010 will necessarily be their best or only shot for a WS in the coming years. Joba and Hughes, just to name a couple of reasons, will be better.
“And that keith law is stupid ! A-Rod’s trade was the biggest of this decade.”
Who knows what the criteria was. The Bedard and Colon deals were noteworthy for the prospects moved in the deal. Colon was traded for Sizemore, Brandon Phillips and Cliff Lee. How big does that look now?
Well if we are talking about range, Dye is getting older, but he plays full seasons in the OF and has a good arm. The problem with any of the other options is they can’t run or have injuries that lead you to believe they can’t hold up there every day. De Rosa isn’t a great fielder, but is a good utility guy. But he isn’t a #5 hitter. And he wants a three year deal I believe. After that you are looking at Rick Ankiel or someone like that. Not sure piling on the lefties is the best idea and he wasn’t great last year. Nady if healthy isn’t a great fielder but could play LF, leave Swisher in RF and is capable of batting fifth. But again, does his arm hold up to throw from the OF?
Holliday makes perfect sense, but unfortunately, I actually believe that Cash will stick to his budget.
MTU,
We can only go “VACANT” in LF if Gardner’s in CF.
Nice pickup by Atlanta adding Troy Glaus to an incentive laden deal. He’ll add a lot of power to their lineup. The downside of course being that they’re putting a lot of eggs in the health of Glaus and Chipper.
I’m not entirely sure Atlanta knows what direction they want to go in. They were so tired of being spurrned by free agents last year (Furcal and AJ) that they went out and overpaid D-Lowe and when that backfired they had to unload a much better pitcher for pennies on the dollar to free up salary to add offense and chose to spend that money on Troy Glaus? Maybe they go out and sign Orlando Hudson, maybe they are stockpiling outfielders to make a trade, I’m not sure. But right now it looks like the Braves are stumbling around without much of a plan.
New poll:
Our LF next year should be ?
Damon
Holliday
Neither
Other
Vacant w. either PJO, or MMO
I’ll cast the first vote.
Vacant w. either PJO, or MMO.
Holliday makes perfect sense NEXT YEAR. Maybe the year after. But what about 5 years from now? Does he make perfect sense at $16 million then?
Laura – Why aren’t more people watching FRINGE?
December 23rd, 2009 at 11:42 am
“He wouldn’t be that bad but I prefer Vlad though.”
Oh, yes he would. Dye’s skills in the field are declining. They might as well have signed Damon.
***************************
Laura, I agree. I have a friend who’s a huge White Sox fan, and I’ve heard her complain about Dye for years to the point where I don’t want anything to do with him. lol
DeRosa ‘wants’ a multiyear deal.
Doesn’t mean he’ll get one.
“I’m beginning to think DeRosa in LF since the team needs an emergency 3b to insure Arod’s hip condition.
Crawford in 2011.”
Amen… Boston is out of the Crawford race by signing Cameron to two years and they will still have Nancy Drew on the Payroll for about 16 million or so
m-
not a good solution.
Why ?
because CF would get screwed up with both Grandy and brett
out there together.
It’s TOO crowded that way.
And their speed would be wasted.
Sorry, no go.
How about Grande and Gardner in CF with Gardner shading to left center field?
CB, if you are still around – what are your thoughts on the scout’s (from the DN article) take on Joba/Hughes/Bucholz?
I’ve no idea what we’ll get from Joba, but as to Phil…..as a starter, though he had some bad games, he also had some terrific ones. His stuff was very good (he got a lot of swings and misses) and his command/control was terrific; I recall his K/BB ratio as being outstanding. He doesn’t have to throw 95 MPH because, with his control, 92-94 (with movement) is plenty. I really thought that if he had been allowed to start all year, he would have been a terrific starter by the end……
For Joba, I hate the idea that we even have to question his motivation. He doesn’t belong in professional sports if that’s in doubt. That said, if he gets over his various issues, he can be dominant.
I don’t want to downplay Bucholz either – he’s obviously very talented. I guess I just get annoyed when so called experts don’t respect our hugely talented young pitchers.
Its the process of elimination
1. Vlad – can’t play the outfield
2. Damon – Only way he comes back if he takes a massive pay cut. Not happening .
3. Derosa – Could cost too much , Alot of teams interested.
4. Bay and Holliday – not happening
5. Which leaves Jermaine Dye- Cheap, Can hit , and can still play the field. Not the best option , but a good enough one
- Jermaine Dye
whatever cashman decided i am sure he has spent a lot of time on research and wouldnt sign dye/damon etc if he didnt believe he would be max value from them. no more rash moves.
M-
Still wont work. They cant do it while holding hands.
Well outside of Holliday, sorry to say, you aren’t going to get a bat who is a plus defender and Holliday isn’t a plus guy, but decent. You either go with Gardner for defense or a FA that can hit, but doesn’t field all that well. Bay and Damon are both negatives in the field and I want nothing to do with Bay. Byrd, Ankiel, there aren’t a lot of other guys who can play the field and maybe hit their weight.
From MLB-Rumors-R-Us.
•Mark Feinsand of the New York Daily News says (via Twitter) that the Cubs were willing to take on Kei Igawa’s salary (two years, $8MM) before the Yanks acquired Javier
————————————————————
Makes you wonder who the Cubs were offering up, doesn’t it?
I’d have to assume that it was a pitcher like Lilly or Dempster.
Not sure if NYY would take Soriano unless the Cubs paid about $20 mil of the $50 mil over 5 years owed him. That’s still be a risk that NYY might not take.
MTU
December 23rd, 2009 at 10:57 am
Kate-
Is satisfying erica’s obssession with Damon worth costing the rest of us another Championship.
I guess love conquers all.
******
I really don’t think a one year deal with Johnny Damon will hurt the Yankees chances of winning anything. The dude is still productive!!
Repost
Backload the deal and it can work
86w183
December 23rd, 2009 at 9:06 am
Certainly Holliday makes this team better, but is it worth the cost of payroll/roster flexibility in 2011?
———-
What payroll flexibility will be needed? If we don’t win then everyone will want a Crawford signing for about the same amount. We don’t even know if he will be available or want to be a Yankee.
Holliday wants to be a Yankee from all indications or he would have signed already with the Cardinals.
This just makes too much sense as did the Tex signing.
He hits to all fields with power, hits for average and despite his gaffe in the playoffs is a pretty good defender.
Gardner will get plenty of opportunity to play defense for him and or swish late in games as will Hoffman. Hoffman can spell Grandy from time to time against lefties and Gardner will be running once a game for Posada in a double switch move then replacing an OF for defense. Thats flexibility.
Holliday needs to be in the 5 hole to protect the 4 hitter who for me in this lineup would be Tex.
Jeter RH
Johnson LH
Arod RH
Tex SH
Holliday RH
Posada SH
Cano LH
Swisher SH
Granderson LH
Is that a flexible line up that will get us #28?
Payroll flexibility comes next year when Pettitte and Javy come off the books and we look at trading Swishers escalating salary and signing Lee.
” According to their roster they now show only four outfielders, Granderson, Nick Swisher , Brett Gardner , and Jamie Hoffman . Is it just me, or is that paper thin? The management looks more than a little disorganized, with their hard-nose stance against Johnny Damon and now trading away their former starting center fielder.”
http://bleacherreport.com/arti.....field-thin
There is NO WAY that they are going into Spring Training with these as their only 4 OF options. Cashman has proven to not be totally truthful with the media time and time again, then come through with the “goods” in the end. This year will be no different, IMHO.
The problem for all those guys (besides age and decline) is that the Yankees aren’t going to spend big to fill the position. So their market is very limited. Holliday-St.Louis, Bay-Mets, Damon-?. Everyone thought that the Sox would be controlling the market this season, and from what I’ve seen it’s been the Yankees driving the bus.
Erica-
i have proposed a solution that will work for everyone including you.
Vacant with PJO.
Your gonna love it.
(from previous thread)
“But if IPK, Bruney or Coke have post-trade careers like Javier has had?
Then I’d be pretty excited to get them back.
Besides all that “accountability” crap is overrated. You want to be accountable? Pitch better! Then you can say whatever you want.
And no one was less “accountable” than Joba last season and he’s not going anywhere.”
I am a definite hit and run poster this offseason so I apologize if people respond/question and I don’t respond in return. I saw this one so will respond to it.
Ted Lilly has a pretty damned good post trade career and I wouldn’t want him back. AGAIN – my premise is that there are pitchers who are not cut out to play in the Bronx. It doesn’t mean they won’t be brilliant elsewhere. I mentioned Vazquez’s attitude because I also think that didn’t help his cause.
AGAIN AND AGAIN – I am hoping that I am wrong in thinking that Vazquez isn’t cut out for the Bronx. But at least for the time being I think that bringing Vazquez back is a mistake. Time will tell if I am right or wrong.
**********************
On the other hand – WELCOME BACK NICK THE STICK!!!
From the last thread:
Jeter
Johnson
Tex
Alex
Grand
Jorge
Cano
Swish – LF
Church – RF
I know, people hate it when I mention Ryan Church (or pretty much any other player) but he’s a better defensive option than Dye or Vlad in RF and will likely cost less to sign than Byrd or DeRosa.
My first choice is still bringing in Ankeil to play LF but short of that, adding Church to RF and moving Swisher to LF (where he can be defensively swapped out by Gardner or Hoffmann) would work as well.
Much like Ankeil, I think Church would produce pretty strong offensive numbers playing in a park like Yankee Stadium with its short porch.
The Igawa deal was tied to talking about Zambrano. But I assume the Cubs wanted the Yankees to pay most of Zambrano’s ridiculous salary and however many years left on it there is and they would be willing to eat Igawa for two years and maybe use him to pitch.
DT – OPPC member
December 23rd, 2009 at 11:10 am
Erica – always OPPC – Bring Johnny Back!!!
December 23rd, 2009 at 10:48 am
Johnny Damon??? Johnny Damon??????
Erica – don’t stop there…sing us the entire song…..
“Johnny Damon, how I love him.
He’s got something I can’t resist,
but he doesn’t even know that I exist.
Johnny Damon, how I want him.
How I tingle when he ice skates by.
Every time he waves “Hello” my heart begins to fly.
Other fellas call me up for a date,
but I just sit and wait, I’d rather concentrate …
… on Johnny Damon. ‘Cause I love him.
And I pray that someday he’ll love me.
And together we will see how lovely Yankee Stadium will be.”
********
Instant. Classic.
I LOVE THIS SONG!!!!
DeRosa posted a .319 OBP and struck out 121 times. He’s 34. No team’s giving him big money or more than 1 year.
MTU
December 23rd, 2009 at 11:55 am
Erica-
i have proposed a solution that will work for everyone including you.
Vacant with PJO.
Your gonna love it.
********
I am out of the loop. What is PJO?
Erica-
are you Suuuuuuure you wanna know ?
Bret the Hitman
December 23rd, 2009 at 11:50 am
DeRosa ‘wants’ a multiyear deal.
Doesn’t mean he’ll get one.
********
I want a Kindle. I want my Vegas fund to triple in size. And I want Johnny Damon to come back.
Not sure if any of the three have an immediate chance of happening in the near future- but I can keep hoping!
MTU
December 23rd, 2009 at 11:58 am
Erica-
are you Suuuuuuure you wanna know ?
******
GULP. I am scared, but I think so
Erica- I have a kindle for sale…
OK Erica-
Here it comes.
You’re gonna love it !
For LF
Vacant with PJO = PJO Pretend Johnny Outfielder.
I had one choice for m but she didn’t have the courage to ask me what MMO was like you.
He will be the perfect PB for you and will solve all of the teams problems for LF next year.
tex’s friend
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Erica- I have a kindle for sale…
*******
I have a credit card that earns me amazon.com gift certificates. Thanks to my spending issues I have accumulated enough of them to get me a Kindle if I want. However, when Barnes & Noble came out with their Nook, I got very confused and held off on getting it
If Nady is healthy, they should look at bringing him back to play left. Otherwise, Marlon Byrd.
“The management looks more than a little disorganized, with their hard-nose stance against Johnny Damon and now trading away their former starting center field”
—————————————————-
Cashman conducts a clinic in the off-season. Schooling every GM in the process. Yet now he’s accused of being “disorganized”. un****ing real
(repost)
The team is going to upgrade LF if for no other reason it would be one of the most efficient investments they could make.
Brett Gardner is a nice player for a particular role. But as a starter he very well could perform at replacement level for a LF. If his defense proves to be a remarkable as some people believe, he could be a game or so better than replacement.
Overall, Gardner doesn’t profile too much differently than Melky did. Only Gardner has significantly more uncertainty and a higher error surrounding his potential performance.
Given the market and the number of corner outfielders looking for jobs the yankees should be able to get an upgrade of a couple of wins out in LF for 5-8M.
They’ve assembled a very good team. But if Gardner or Hoffman can’t handle starting it will be much more expensive to try to upgrade during the season than it will now.
If nothing else they should just take a flier on Xavier Nady.
MTU
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:02 pm
OK Erica-
Here it comes.
You’re gonna love it !
For LF
Vacant with PJO = PJO Pretend Johnny Outfielder.
I had one choice for m but she didn’t have the courage to ask me what MMO was like you.
He will be the perfect PB for you and will solve all of the teams problems for LF next year.
**********
There is only one Johnny Damon
. I am pretty sure if we have a pretend left fielder the opposing teams could score a lot of runs
Another name Sweeny Murti mentioned as a possible left field solution, Scott Posednik! THATS OUR GUY!!!!!!!!!
I like MTUs idea better than Derosa. at least they wouldn’t be wasting “precious” payroll.
Don’t be coy, MTU. You know you’re dying to tell us. Just don’t expect me to beg.
From the last thread:
Jeter
Johnson
Tex
Alex
Grand
Jorge
Cano
Swish – LF
Church – RF
I know, people hate it when I mention Ryan Church (or pretty much any other player) but he’s a better defensive option than Dye or Vlad in RF and will likely cost less to sign than Byrd or DeRosa.
My first choice is still bringing in Ankeil to play LF but short of that, adding Church to RF and moving Swisher to LF (where he can be defensively swapped out by Gardner or Hoffmann) would work as well.
Much like Ankeil, I think Church would produce pretty strong offensive numbers playing in a park like Yankee Stadium with its short porch.
—–
Church seems reasonable enough to me. One of the players I liked on the Mets…and there aren’t many. He was decent for them but after his concussion problems the team handled him all wrong leading to his trade.
Ankiel would also be solid I think. Though I hear he is asking for a ridiculous contract. That might keep him out of the running for now.
Scott Posednik — that’d be cool
ha, im just trying to get rid of mine. still in the box. a gift from my boss.
I have covered that very point previously but the virtues outweigh the disadvantages in my opinion.
And look at this way.
If you too get into a little spat.
It will be easy for you to win.
Kissing and making up wont be as satisfying though.
Oh well.
Guess you can’t have it all.
Frank
December 23rd, 2009 at 11:46 am
“And that keith law is stupid ! A-Rod’s trade was the biggest of this decade.”
Who knows what the criteria was. The Bedard and Colon deals were noteworthy for the prospects moved in the deal. Colon was traded for Sizemore, Brandon Phillips and Cliff Lee. How big does that look now?”
——————————————————
I don’t even read Keith Law but before one goes ballistic about it they should read what he actually said.
He did NOT say that the Ortiz deal was the biggest trade of the decade. He said that it was the most significant free agent signing of the decade and whether you agree or not there is a difference between a free agent signing and a trade.
I meant to add an adress ‘Erica”
You could argue that the Bedard deal was the biggest trade of the decade. The players that went to the Orioles could very well change the course of that franchise.
The deal also exposed Bavasi for being the hack GM that he was which resulted in Jack Z taking the reins. With him in control the Mariners are making all the right moves and should be a playoff contender in 2010 and beyond.
If you think about it, the Bedard trade has drastically changed the future of two ballclubs.
I don’t think Nady runs well enough to play LF in Yankees stadium.
While Law is right about Ortiz, he should have included the words “David Ortiz and his needles signing with Boston as the best free agency pickup of the decade.”
I think MLB should have done the same thing with Arod when they named him the best 3rd baseman of the decade.
Hey, Sam. Isn’t NJ passing his physical worthy of its own thread?
“Cashman conducts a clinic in the off-season. Schooling every GM in the process. Yet now he’s accused of being “disorganized”. un****ing real”
Imagine, a real GM thinking he knows better than blog posters!
Scott Podsednik = more expensive Brett Gardner
Podsednik would be a disaster. Better off with Gardner out there.
Posednik – certainly a good lead-off hitter! If his D is good that could be a sweet thing.
Welcome back, Nick!
2009 OBP:
Jeter .406
Johnson .426
Teixeira ..383
Rodriguez .402
Granderson .327
Posada .363
Swisher ..371
Cano .352
Gardner .345
Not bad. I think Granderson and Gardner improve, too.
really off the wall trade that I’m not at all endorsing but just throwing out there:
Angels get: Igawa
Yankees get: Gary Matthews Jr. and a prospect
“I think MLB should have done the same thing with Arod when they named him the best 3rd baseman of the decade.”
Fair comment up to a point. A-Rod had ridiculous numbers before the provable juicing and has returned to ridiculous numbers after. Ortiz? A nobody, then suddenly the best LH bat in the universe. Now with testing and scrutiny, a nothing again. Draw the fair conclusion.
I have the solution..let’s sign a guy like Dye or Vlad to a one year deal because next year we have…..(cue crickets curping sound effect)….
Check the update. On my phone but wanted to make sure you all saw it
Posednik is a terrible player. Pass.
Although on paper the Yanks’ offense is as good or better than it was last year, right now the Yanks are significantly more vulnerable to LHP than they were last year.
Given that NYS encourages teams to pitch lefties against us, that’s not a great situation.
The Yanks are going to get a right-handed OF to play LF, it’s just a matter of who, of course. Xavier Nady, Marlon Byrd, somebody.
My fantasy right now is Cashman thinking of a way to turn Joba or Phil into Shin-Soo Choo or Nelson Cruz. That’s unlikely, of course, but probably more likely than the Yanks signing Holliday.
AGAIN AND AGAIN – I am hoping that I am wrong in thinking that Vazquez isn’t cut out for the Bronx. But at least for the time being I think that bringing Vazquez back is a mistake. Time will tell if I am right or wrong.
***
====
Hey Trisha!!!
Hope you are having a merry week.
I think with Javy it’s more about ballpark – that’s where my trepidation lies.
He’s a good pitcher, but Yankee Stadium is not the best park for him.
He will fill the need for a No. 4, but I would have strongly preferred the two kids took their crack at the rotation with reserve guys in the wings in case either stumbled.
Javy will go something like 14-9 for the Yankees, which will be fine. The issue for me is, I think Chamberlain and Hughes are both capable of putting the Yankees in a position to win as many games with their pitching.
And I thought the idea, moving forward, was to hope each make strides in 2010 en route to being full time starters.
I was relieved greatly that neither Joba nor Hughes (nor Montero) were dealt away.
But the idea that one of Joba or Hughes winds up in the BP – unless it was Hughes as a result of running out of innings – to me, means they might have just dealt whichever arm that is.
WYH,
That is a nice idea, Choo or Cruz would be pretty nice on this team.
I think the best realistic option is Marlon Byrd.
blake
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:10 pm
I have the solution..let’s sign a guy like Dye or Vlad to a one year deal because next year we have…..(cue crickets curping sound effect)….
—————————–
Jayson Werth?
2004 was a long time ago. I have no recollection of anyone’s accountability gleaned from post-game interviews from that time.
For the sake of discussion, let’s assume he was as flip is Ian Kennedy was in the one interview. Or as unaccountable as even Phil Hughes was in the post season when he did not make himself available for a post-game interview and was raked over the coals right here on the Lohud.
I still take it as a positive that he addressed a mistake in how he dealt with some adversity (shoulder) during the second half of that season.
But food for thought: if a person was trying to pitch through discomfort without telling anyone, as foolish as that is, wouldn’t that be an extenuating circumstance of sorts? I would imagine such a person trying to put a rosy coat on things considering the circumstances, or avoiding the press altogether. He may even think he’s doing something good by trying to pitch through something, misguided as I think that is.
And I think that 5 years is enough to maybe gain some maturity.
If he could go 10-5 in the first half of that season, that’s some indication that he was having success in NY.
But we shall we what we shall see. I tend to assume the best in most circumstances. That might be naive; but I yam what I yam.
Welcome back, officially, to Nick Johnson. Let’s hope DHing keeps him healthy.
“Another name Sweeny Murti mentioned as a possible left field solution, Scott Posednik! THATS OUR GUY!!!!!!!!!”
———————————————-
already on the active roster. aka Brett Gardner
You can’t paper over a problem forever.
I suspect that those who are bad-talking our future leftfielder now will appreciate him more next year.
•Mark Feinsand of the New York Daily News says (via Twitter) that the Cubs were willing to take on Kei Igawa’s salary (two years, $8MM) before the Yanks acquired Javier Vazquez
****************
Interesting………….
Damon for one year at $8.5 million with a team option 2nd year is where this is going to end up.
They’ll trade one of Mitre or Gaudin (or release one with 45 days termination pay) before the end of ST. Gaudin should know to accept the Yankees arb figure or he’s DFAed, so figure him for about $2.25 million.
Payroll then at about $198 million AAV (right now its a shade less than $189 million AAV before arb). Done. Lux tax figure is then about $220 million. Still high, but less than last year. Flexibility exists for 2011 and 2012.
Matt Holliday makes baseball sense to me, but apparently Cash has a plan and he’s not in it.
Move Jesus Montero to RF in the minors this year.
Give the Cubs Igawa for a bat boy! Do it quick, Cash, before they see the Sportcenter highlights!
“already on the active roster. aka Brett Gardner”
Pretty much, except Gardner may yet improve. Scotty Pods is declining.
Erica, my wife got me the Sony Reader for Chanukay and it seems very cool. you have access to the public library ebooks which you dont get with Kindle. The Sony seems to be the best rated ebook reader around.
murphydog
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Fair comment up to a point. A-Rod had ridiculous numbers before the provable juicing and has returned to ridiculous numbers after. Ortiz? A nobody, then suddenly the best LH bat in the universe. Now with testing and scrutiny, a nothing again. Draw the fair conclusion.
——————————————————
I like Ortiz-bashing as much as the next guy, but after his wonderfully horrifying April and May, he did finish with 28 HRs and 99 RBIs. He’s not the threat he once was, but that’s hardly nothing. Not sure why everyone thinks he’s done.
i think the yankees meet in the middle with Damon on a 2 year deal.
either that, or we go with Gardner/Hoffmann and possibly make a trade mid-season.
People keep talking about Montero to the OF. Can he run? Most catchers don’t project to the OF…
I was reading a White Sox blog where everyone was hoping to get Gardner so they didn’t have to watch Podsednik.
“Move Jesus Montero to RF in the minors this year.”
Latest word is that his footwork behind the plate has improved, so I don’t think we’ll see him go to the OF.
Chip
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:09 pm
really off the wall trade that I’m not at all endorsing but just throwing out there:
Angels get: Igawa
Yankees get: Gary Matthews Jr. and a prospect
======
Gary Matthews Jr is awful.
murphydog
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:10 pm
“I think MLB should have done the same thing with Arod when they named him the best 3rd baseman of the decade.”
Fair comment up to a point. A-Rod had ridiculous numbers before the provable juicing and has returned to ridiculous numbers after. Ortiz? A nobody, then suddenly the best LH bat in the universe. Now with testing and scrutiny, a nothing again. Draw the fair conclusion.
————————————————————
Not sure how much the steroids really helped Rodriguez (or any player for that matter). I would assume at the very most it would be 10%, and that’s stretching it. However, in Rodriguez’ case, there wasn’t even that much difference in numbers, prior to or after Texas. Certainly no proof that they kept him on the field in the Texas heat. Teixeira played in over 450 straight games in Texas. Years ago, Jim sundberg had 142 or more games caught for 6 straight years and at least 2 over 150.
Christina25
But ARod actually admitted to wrongdoing, like Pettitte, and Giambi, with class.
David Ortiz took the cowards way out, like Manny, but because Ortiz is still on the Red Sox, the media forgot all about it.
I am still waiting for Ortiz to get back to us with the reasoning. Didn’t he say he would get back with more information………
I hope Gardner gets the chance to start in LF.
Batting 9th with 600 PAs I’ll predict:
.270 Avg
.360 OBP
85 runs
45 SB
near gold glove quality fielding
CB,
The Yanks feel like Jose A Ramirez, who’s about to be named short season pitcher of the year by MLB(milb).com is very similar to Arodis and healthier. Stilll they’re not happy about losing Viz.
bodhisattva -
I have mixed reactions to Rob Dibble on XM (sometimes he’s just annoying). But I had the opportunity to hear him talk about Vazquez on his radio show yesterday afternoon. He thought it was a great deal for the Yankees, specifically talking about his k/bb ratio, and his ability to keep the ball down, to give many, many innings and low pitch counts. But more important than all that, to me, was that he addressed what I’ve been trying to say here. That he has matured as a pitcher. That he has, in fact, become more of a pitcher and less of a thrower, that he’s become smarter on the mound. That’s what I’m hanging my hat on.
I was crossing my fingers that they’d give Hughes and Joba the ball, too. But with Hughes on whatever limit they decide upon and Joba still a question mark if you take last season into account (will he be strong? will he avoid deep counts? will he pitch more than 5 innings at a time?) I figured they’d want to protect themselves a bit.
It will be interesting to see how things work out.
Boy, that Bleacher Report blog is so off base. The Yankees management is disorganized? That’s ridiculous. Imagine – Yankee fans upset that their team is actually standing firm and being unwilling to be a doormat for players/teams/agents anymore.
CB, I totally agree on LF. What a situation – Gardner is terrible, Holliday too expensive and our farm is a bit depleted thanks to the recent trades. Cash is going to have to really get creative because I don’t see any good options.
Montero has no chance at ever playing the OF. He is not fast enough and has slow reflexes. They key to being a good outfielder isn’t always speed, it’s making a good read on a ball and getting a good jump. Montero’s skillset doesn’t translate well to that at all.
I think Montero will stick at catcher, if the Yankees didn’t think he could catch they wouldn’t have moved him up to AAA as a catcher. It’s still probably 50-50 that he stays there.
Yazman
That would be enough.
Fair comment up to a point. A-Rod had ridiculous numbers before the provable juicing and has returned to ridiculous numbers after. Ortiz? A nobody, then suddenly the best LH bat in the universe. Now with testing and scrutiny, a nothing again. Draw the fair conclusion.
I know but some people suspected that he was juicing before he even got drafted. In one instance the Texas owner said that he thought that Arod was juicing when he was with the Mariners. To tell you the truth I’m so suspicious of everybody that I think the majority are doing something even to this day. there is too much money at stake.
agreed about the roids having minimal affect on a-rod. ortiz on the other hand….
released from the twinkies? suddenly hitting 40 homeruns a season in fenway? and now rapidly declining?
yeah which one benefitted more?
“I like Ortiz-bashing as much as the next guy, but after his wonderfully horrifying April and May, he did finish with 28 HRs and 99 RBIs. He’s not the threat he once was, but that’s hardly nothing. Not sure why everyone thinks he’s done.”
OK, got me
Christina25
Oh, and GB7 and murphydogs posts sum it up pretty well.
Ortiz was never anything until he put on the Red Sox uni, needle in buttocks, increased size by 30% and started going by David Ortiz instead of David Arias.
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:19 pm
People keep talking about Montero to the OF. Can he run? Most catchers don’t project to the OF…
=====
No, no, and no. He can’t run. He’s not OF material. RF would be a place to hide his bat. That’s it.
There is a “slow” 1B/guy with RH 70 power in the system that may eventually convert half way decently to OF – Reymond Nunez.
He’s not the hitter Montero is, but he can launch ‘em. The difference is, like Montero, Nunez doesn’t have great pace, but he has a quick first step, which is critical to OF defense.
Last man Standing on MH.
That is except for PJO.
And Nick-
I didn’t paper over anything. I thought it was a standup solution.
Doreen,
I think he has the 2nd most strikeouts over the last so many years. You don’t achieve those kinds of numbers if you don’t know how to pitch (or don’t stay healthy).
I think being a secondary piece in the rotation will be a good thing. No one (but a few fickle fans) will be expecting perfection out of Javy.
Please, anyone, if you have the link the statistics on the average ERA out of each rotation slot, I’d appreciate it. I think the average 4th starter was in the 5′s and the average #5 starter was in the 6′s.
BTW, Doreen, are you feeling better now? Less stress?
C25:
“To tell you the truth I’m so suspicious of everybody that I think the majority are doing something even to this day. there is too much money at stake.”
I hear you, but I think the testing and penalties are having a greater deterrent effect.
“If you are still around – what are your thoughts on the scout’s (from the DN article) take on Joba/Hughes/Bucholz?”
It doesn’t really matter. There’s rarely if ever going to be uniform evaluation or opinion of any player.
The news talked to a scout that liked Buchholz. That’s fine.
Buchholz did a nice job of making adjustments when he was in the minors. He came back up as a very different pitcher. But the league is going to make adjustments back against what Buchholz picked up in the minors.
On the whole, I have been surprised to see how so many people are assuming Buchholz based on the end of last year while Joba and Hughes are much more uncertains despite performing at the big league level the entire year.
That still doesn’t change the fact that the yankees and sox have very comparable pitching rotations and that the yankees have the better pen now.
And of course it also doesn’t really say much about the fact that the yankees line up is much better than the sox.
Finally, if Joba is able to get his stuff back up to where it was when he was starting in 2008 most of these comparisons are going to be afterthoughts, because Joba’s stuff in 2008 as a starter was very comparable to Felix Hernandez’s.
m
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:19 pm
People keep talking about Montero to the OF. Can he run? Most catchers don’t project to the OF…
————————————————————
That’s one reason that I’d like to see the Yanks move Romine to a corner outfield. He has the footspeed to play both right and the big left field in YS. He also has the arm. He’s also a very good base runner and can steal more than 10 bases a year.
Thanks for that info, bodhi. I guess it would be C/DH for Montero. Can’t wait to see what all the hullaballoo is about.
Chip, werth would be a possibilty but I would argue that 1) he’s not as good as Holliday 2) he may cost more than Holliday depending on the economy 3) he may sign an extension with Philly 4) you are getting him a year later and the jeters and riveras will be a year older.
If they don’t go with Holliday because of the payroll then that’s fine, but if they choose not to because they think they can just get Crawford or werth next year then thay makes no sense and won’t do anything to lower the payroll long term.
It had better not end up there, Pitt and I seriously doubt it. No way are the Yankees going to cave on Damon by actually upgrading their offer. I don’t like Gardner, but they aren’t desperate. If they upgrade their offer to Damon, then that’s a sign they are soft as marshmallow. You’d have to pick my jaw off the ground if that happened.
We’re “parting ways” with Damon? For what? If the reports are correct, we offered 2/14M and they’ve countered at 2/20M. We’re going to lose a core guy over 3M per? Who are we, the Twins?
Cashman’s arrogance knows no bounds. He’s more concerned with outplaying Boras and Tellum than he is with making the team the best it can be.
Proving to everybody that he was right about Vazquez and refusing to cut the strings on Igawa are just further examples.
“But ARod actually admitted to wrongdoing, like Pettitte, and Giambi, with class.”
Nothing classy about Pettitte, CR9. Confessed. Got caught lying in his confession and had to re-confess. In the end, they were all cheating and there’s no nobility in owning up after you’ve been exposed. The guy that gets up one day and ” I did it and I’m sorry” before being exposed is the guy I’ll respect.
Probably be dead before that happens though.
“no, we wish Johnny the best going forward but at this point I think it’s fair to say that we’re parting ways.”
Jeter
Johnson
Teixeira
Rodriguez
Holliday
Granderson
Posada
Cano
Swisher
But ARod actually admitted to wrongdoing, like Pettitte, and Giambi, with class.
The only person from this list that I admire is Giambi and Pettitte. They admitted it. Arod on the other hand lied about then came out clean because of Roberts. You are right about Ortiz. He should have come out and say that he did it.
Phil, that’s the balance the Yankees have to strike in NY – between winning and building for the future. Cash may have been unhappy about giving up Vizcaino, but he made the deal. Therefore, he reasoned that, whatever pain it caused, it was worth it. It’s not like the Yankees can’t ever develop another very good pitching prospect….Who else do they have, by the way, that is a really good arm besides Banuelos? I’m not counting Brackman because I have my doubts.
I think we should either go with Holliday or stick with Gardner in left (or center). If we go with Gardner we should take the money we’re not spending on a free agent and plunge it into IFA. I know they have a few lined up. Before he broke his thumb, Gardy had put up a few really nice months, after he got back he was not the same, but thumbs are like that for hitters.
Did ya hear that folks?
We are PARTING WAYS
Cash’s Favorite song.
An old Stones tune.
Goes like this:
“Time’s on my side. Yes it is”
Boras, Hear it. Deal with it.
“Hey Scott, Who’s your Daddy ? “
“We’re “parting ways” with Damon? For what? If the reports are correct, we offered 2/14M and they’ve countered at 2/20M.”
Think we need to know a little more about the timing than we do before casting aspersions. For example, had the Yankees actually offered 2/$20M earlier in the off-season as reported? When exactly did Damon make the jump from 3 or 4 years at $13M to 2/$20M? I think this ends up being more about Boras misreading his market than anything else.
and here i thought the Montero to the outfield comment was a joke?!
goes to show i have really been posting here enough lately.
Let me make myself CLEAR:
“no, we wish Johnny the best going forward but at this point I think it’s fair to say that we’re parting ways.”
IF you want a long term outfield fix this year for one of the corners, how about this:
Houston gets: Joba Chamberlain
NYY gets: Hunter Pence
Now, this makes sense if the Yankees made the deal for Vazquez because they believe Joba is a relief pitcher.
Gardy had his trials, tribulations, and misadventures. But he’s barely graduated from rookie status.
Cashman does sound like he’s looking, though.
m
Welcome back
Your dreams were you ticket out
Welcome back to the same old place that you laughed about
The names have all changed since you hung around
but the dreams have remained and the’ve turned around
And
Who’d a thought they’d need ya (Who’d a thought they’d need ya)
BACK here where we need ya (back here where we need ya)
we tease him a lot ’cause we got him on the spot
Welcome back
All from Memory!
m-
he’s just turnin the screws and kickin the tires.
He knows what he wants.
He likes big game meat when he can get it !
Hates hamburger.
@Cashman, “Some players removed themselves from our ability to re-sign based on the contract discussions that were taking place”
this is corporate-speak for: we’ll continue to charge outrageous ticket prices, but we’re going to get worse players so we can save some bucks.
They wouldn’t trade Joba for Halladay, what makes you think they’re going to trade him at all (for anyone not named Felix or Adrian Gonzalez)?
CB, thanks!
I’m eager to see how both Phil and Joba pitch in ST, though I dislike the idea of a competition and I dislike the idea of either (esp. Phil) in the pen.
Cashman’s arrogance knows no bounds. He’s more concerned with outplaying Boras and Tellum than he is with making the team the best it can be.
___
guess we have one moron in the house today. Cashman’s arrogance? The same arrogance that won us titles in 1998, 99, 00, and 09?
For example, had the Yankees actually offered 2/$20M earlier in the off-season as reported?
—
A suggested offer is not the same as a real written offer. You can suggest an offer but attach the suggestion with an open timetable. For example, the Yankees can say, “We might be interested in Johnny Damon on a short term deal of maybe 2 years 10 million tops but we’re not quite ready yet.”
One last thing:
“we wish Johnny the best going forward but at this point I think it’s fair to say that we’re parting ways.”
Uncle-
And if necessary. How about this classic ?
“Obla di. Obla da. life goes on. La la la life goes on. “
no other big ticket FA (OFer) is coming to NY….it’s going to be a vet OFer & will be sign for one maybe two years..
Gardner will be the 4th
I was crossing my fingers that they’d give Hughes and Joba the ball, too. But with Hughes on whatever limit they decide upon and Joba still a question mark if you take last season into account (will he be strong? will he avoid deep counts? will he pitch more than 5 innings at a time?) I figured they’d want to protect themselves a bit.
=====
Doreen,
Javy is a fine pitcher. But he’s been doing his maturing in the NL, where the bottom third of the order is a snooze, and also not pitching half his starts in YS with it’s pull RF of 314.
He’ll be alright, but his stuff lends itself much better to Turner Field, or whatever they are calling it these days.
Re the kids: it’s time to fish or cut bait.
Either you’re committed to developing homegrown arms, or you are not.
I’d be more comforted if they send Hughes to AAA. Having him languish in the BP this year tells me they aren’t serious about him as a starter, in which case he may has well have been dealt.
You might say that I’m being a bit militant, and that it would be too much to expect the Yankees to try and develop TWO young arms in the same season – but that would only be relevant if Hughes is sent to AAA. If he’s in the BP, well, I think the Yankees then have lost their way.
And sending Vizcaino to the Braves for 1-year of 33-year old Vasquez makes me question Cashman’s poise. For I can’t believe a lesser arm could not have gotten this done, perhaps one closer to the majors.
The Yankees could get a lot more for Joba than Hunter Pence. Pence is ok but nothing special. Why are you in love with average players Chip?
Granderson + Vazquez for Cabrera, Dunn, Kennedy, Coke, Jackson + Vizcaino? Unless the last 2 become stars, it’s thievery 4 Cashman
___
who would know more about thievery than a sox fan?
v-mart for masterson? REALLY!?!?!
My favorite though is the attempt to trade Lowell without disclosing an injury that requires surgery.
We’re “parting ways” with Damon? For what? If the reports are correct, we offered 2/14M and they’ve countered at 2/20M. We’re going to lose a core guy over 3M per? Who are we, the Twins?
Cashman’s arrogance knows no bounds. He’s more concerned with outplaying Boras and Tellum than he is with making the team the best it can be.
Proving to everybody that he was right about Vazquez and refusing to cut the strings on Igawa are just further examples.”
You should change your name to Cashman hater… If johnny damon is such a core guy to a team how come he left the red sox to come to the Yankees.. Hes a Scott Boras Client… He will go where he can get the most zeros in his paycheck first… I loved Johnny but hes not worth $10M/ yr.
He’s not refusing to cut strings with Igawa… he didn’t want to Pay Zambranos huge back-loaded salary… Read up
Let me guess,,, your still sour because we let go via free agency of a 37 year old Japanese man with knees that are ready to give out at minute???
Im curious to know where your information comes from about Cashman’s Arrogance??
Uncle,
Very impressive. And eerily fitting.
Do you guys want me to hold off my “Phil in the rotation” campaign to Cashman until February?
Good thing is these last 2 are 1 year deals. Johnson was a 1 year contract, and Vazquez is in his walk year. Also Pettite is a 1 year deal.
They wouldn’t trade Joba for Halladay, what makes you think they’re going to trade him at all (for anyone not named Felix or Adrian Gonzalez)?
They wouldn’t trade Joba for Halladay because Brian doesn’t like to pay twice – he doesn’t want to give up top young players for guys he has to sign to long term deals.
Again, if the Yankees have decided that Joba is a relief pitcher then dealing him for a young player like Pence makes sense. The value chart for players is:
Starting pitcher
Everyday player
Closer
non-closer relief pitcher
bench player
If the Yankees can lock down two thirds of their outfield with young emerging stars in Granderson and Pence I think that would be a good thing.
“The Yanks feel like Jose A Ramirez, who’s about to be named short season pitcher of the year by MLB(milb).com is very similar to Arodis and healthier. Stilll they’re not happy about losing Viz.”
After the trade was announced I was wondering if Ramirez’s success last year may have helped the FO justify putting Vizcaino in the deal (though I don’t like the notion of projecting forward the health of a 19 year old unless there is a major problem…)
Ramirez had a very nice year and seems to have a terrific arm.
we tease him a lot cause he’s injured a lot
welcome back
Please call WFAN today and tell EVERYONE in New York:
“no, we wish Johnny the best going forward but at this point I think it’s fair to say that we’re parting ways.”
apparently NJ welcome back conf call set to begin shortly
The Yankees could get a lot more for Joba than Hunter Pence. Pence is ok but nothing special. Why are you in love with average players Chip?
Pence is a young corner outfielder with a lot of power and very good defense – look around the league there aren’t a lot of those.
If the Yankees have decided that Joba is a relief pitcher then it is better to move him now rather than waiting for his value to reflect that of a relief pitcher.
george December 23rd, 2009 at 12:36 pm
@Cashman, “Some players removed themselves from our ability to re-sign based on the contract discussions that were taking place”
this is corporate-speak for: we’ll continue to charge outrageous ticket prices, but we’re going to get worse players so we can save some bucks.
———————-
Everyone should do this, cause this philosophy only won us a World Series a couple months ago. It’s called financial flexibility. Congrats for being moron of the day.
Chip,
Joba will most likely be in the rotation this year, with Phil in the pen or down in AAA getting stretched out for part of the year. They don’t believe Joba is a reliever. They see a guy with four pitches who just needs to grow up a bit and get healthy.
when the yankees got javy, sheets and co value just declined rapidly. if the yankees close up lf and it is not holliday or bay, they have no bargaining power either.
GGBG projects to dreck, unfortuately.
.250/.340/.333 with 3-5 HR.
For inexplicable reasons his WAR is 2.1 (maybe his speed).
Cashmoney, you don’t spend that kind of scratch on your dynasty team and have that production in LF. You just don’t. You’re not the Pirates or the Marlins.
Everybody knows it. Why lie to the media like you do?
“Cash’s Favorite song.
An old Stones tune.”
Well, you’ve got your diamonds and you’ve got your pretty clothes
And the chauffeur drives your car
You let everybody know
But don’t play with me, ’cause you’re playing with fire
CB,
Viz’s injury was a back.
I wonder what the Yankees 2011 payroll would look like if they re-signed Jeter and Rivera, signed cliff lee, and signed Crawford/werth next year…I’m guessing more than 200 million.
m
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Thanks for that info, bodhi. I guess it would be C/DH for Montero. Can’t wait to see what all the hullaballoo is about.
————————————————————
Mel, have you seen some of the videos of Montero’s games and interviews? He actually speaks English pretty well.
Here’s a 1 July 2009 interview. There are game clips on the right side. Love the sound of the ball off of the bat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKKwRlgALT0
If the Yankees have decided that Joba is a relief pitcher then it is better to move him now rather than waiting for his value to reflect that of a relief pitcher.
___
OR
they have no intention of trading him so it doesnt matter what teams value him as. He could potentially be the closer after Mo retires (hopefully many years from now)
Chip,
You are overrating Hunter Pence. He’s slightly above average for a corner OF. Not something I’d give up Joba for.
Tyler Kepner’s article on Vazquez today was really outstanding. I highly suggest it.
Here was the most interesting part for me – the yankees scouts felt that Vazquez is one of the top 15 pitchers in all of baseball.
The yanks felt there were three pitchers potentially available that were in a class by themselves in terms of being difference makers – Hallady, Lee, and Vazquez.
That’s who highly they thought of him.
” Since leaving the Yankees, Vazquez is one of only two pitchers with at least 1,000 innings and 1,000 strikeouts; Santana is the other. The Yankees’ scouts consider him one of the 15 best starters in the majors, and when the Yankees analyzed their options for improving the rotation, Vazquez’s name was one of three that stood out.
The others were Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee. But the Toronto Blue Jays never seemed serious about dealing Halladay to the Yankees, and the Philadelphia Phillies were uncomfortable sending Lee to the team that just beat them in the World Series. Halladay wound up with Philadelphia and Lee with Seattle.
That left Vazquez, who has one year and $11.5 million remaining on his contract. But he was not initially available, because the Braves preferred to deal Derek Lowe, who has three years and $45 million left. ”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12.....ref=sports
“guess we have one moron in the house today. Cashman’s arrogance? The same arrogance that won us titles in 1998, 99, 00, and 09?”
Oh right, I forgot. When apportioning credit for the titles, Cash and Cash alone gets full credit. When assigning blame for the the post-dynasty disappointments, Cash wasn’t really the GM, the guys in Tampa were in charge.
MYU
if you want some fun take ob la di la da
Joba will most likely be in the rotation this year, with Phil in the pen or down in AAA getting stretched out for part of the year. They don’t believe Joba is a reliever. They see a guy with four pitches who just needs to grow up a bit and get healthy.
Phil, if that’s the case then you don’t do the trade. Again, I’m only advocating it if the Yankees have decided to move Joba to the pen full-time (which I believe is the case).
Ledger_Yankees Johnson says Yanks were his first choice, even if it meant giving up playing defense. He wanted a chance to win.
5 minutes ago from TweetDeck
Reply Retweet BloggingBombers Nick Johnson: “It’s great. I started my career here and I’m really happy to be back and to put the pinstripes back on.”
13 minutes ago from web
blake December 23rd, 2009 at 12:45 pm
I wonder what the Yankees 2011 payroll would look like if they re-signed Jeter and Rivera, signed cliff lee, and signed Crawford/werth next year…I’m guessing more than 200 million.
——————————–
ask that question last night..guessing somewhere around 225 mil
Uncle-
like this tune ?
“He’s a real nowhere man,
Sitting in his Nowhere Land,
Making all his nowhere plans
for nobody.
Doesn’t have a point of view,
Knows not where he’s going to,
Isn’t he a bit like you and me?
Nowhere Man please listen,
You don’t know what you’re missing,
Nowhere Man,the world is at your command!”
The Boston Chapter also announced that Yankees’ general manager Brian Cashman has been selected as executive of the year.
Well I don’t think anyone has ever questioned Javier’s stuff, it’s whether he can dominate AL competition and how he can produce under pressure. Some guys have great stuff and don’t make use of it. And some guys don’t, but know how to pitch. I am hoping the 2010 Javier has learned a little more know and is more seasoned. He claims he knows how to pitch more now then he did back then. If that’s the case, he may well be our #2 guy this year by season’s end. He certainly can be more consistent than AJ was last year.
Brian Cashman,
Can you repeat that? I didnt quite get it the gajillionth time. Thank you in advance.
Oh right, I forgot. When apportioning credit for the titles, Cash and Cash alone gets full credit. When assigning blame for the the post-dynasty disappointments, Cash wasn’t really the GM, the guys in Tampa were in charge.
___
You are the only person to put it like that so you are arguing with yourself. Certainly not reflecting on Cashman’s ‘arrogance’. He is in charge now and won a title in 2009. And getting vazquez back isnt arrogant. not wanting damon and matsui is not arrogant.
the days of the yankees being taken for a ride by boras and others is over. cash will spend where he sees fit, and not overpay for older players anymore.
the only arrogant one here is you thinking you somehow know more than the GM…
GB7,
Thanks. He looked very comfortable doing an interview, not so many 19 year olds do, haha. And oh, that face! Very marketable.
He’s not all that big. Sounds like he’s prepared to keep working to become a better catcher.
I saw her today at the reception
In her glass was a bleeding man
She was practiced at the art of deception
Well I could tell by her blood-stained hands
You can’t always get what you want
You can’t always get what you want
but if you try sometimes you’ll find
you get what you need
S.o.S.
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Brian Cashman,
Can you repeat that? I didnt quite get it the gajillionth time. Thank you in advance.
MY pleasure my friend!
We wish Johnny the best going forward but at this point I think it’s fair to say that we’re parting ways!!!
PARTING WAYS
The Yankees can trumpet Jose Ramirez all they want -and he does have an electric arm.
But here’s a concept – how about sending McAllister or Nova?
Hell, I’d send both those guys before I’d gift-wrap a gem like Vizcaino.
I’m a talent-centric guy – I’ll sooner part with organizational “depth” and guys closer to the majors who project to 4 or 5 types than I’ll let someone wrench a golden arm like Vizcaino’s from me – and certainly not for Javier Vasquez.
The “depth” guys are easily replaced. An arm with the upside of Vizcaino’s isn’t.
get rid of joba and bring a LFer back for him…he’s not that good. He’s a train wreck most times when he starts & did a so so job in relief ..
maybe Tex will give up Cruz for him
MYU you are 2 days late with the Beatles
Today is a Stones day.
nick agreeing to give up defense should help him stay healthy.
Fellas. Not sure if you have already touched upon this. I was watching MLB last night and they had Cashman on. He mentioned that there is a signing that just neededd the t’s crossed and i’s dotted. They thought he was talking about Derosa. He made it seem like it would be coming in the next day or two. Anyone heard anything thats coming out? Was he just talking about the official signing of Johnson?
“Ledger_Yankees Johnson says Yanks were his first choice, even if it meant giving up playing defense. He wanted a chance to win.”
He turned down a comparable amount of money from the giants and they wanted him to play 1b. Also think they were offering him a 2 year deal.
Johnson and his agent may have felt it best to just have him DH and try to show he’s healthy in a deep lineup.
But it does seem like Johnson very much wanted to play for the yanks rather than taking an ostensibly better short term opportunity from another team.
Joeman, exactly that’s why I don’t put any stock in anything cashman says. One minute he is talking about sticking to a strict budget and the next he is saying how impressive next years free agent class is. You can’t have it both ways. Lowering payroll this year only to raise it next would be kinds silly no…
they have no intention of trading him so it doesnt matter what teams value him as. He could potentially be the closer after Mo retires (hopefully many years from now)
Tex – see I don’t buy that argument.
If Joba’s not a starter and he’s not going to close until Mo retires three or four years from now, then you move him. In the four years between now and then the Yankees can develop or sign another pitcher to replace Mo.
Again, I only bring this up for three reasons:
1. You want a long term solution in the OF rather than a stopgap
2. You believe that Matt Holliday is not in the Yankee plans
3. You believe that Joba is going to be a relief pitcher and not a starter.
If those three things are not the case then disregard my suggestion entirely.
But on the other hand, Pence represents a young, inexpensive, emerging player who could be the Yankee right fielder for the next 5 years. To me that is more important than Joba being the Yankee set-up reliever for the next four years until Mo retires.
I played Homerun Derby on MLB 2009 last night. Nick looked REALLY good taking pitches — and actually hit one line drive to the base of the wall.
Tonight, it will be Javy pitching to Damon with the bases loaded.
the suggested deals for Joba are ridiculous.
Joba for Nelson Cruz?
give it up….
I don’t get the “well if Joba’s (Hughes) not going to be in the rotation this year you might as well trade him” stance that I’ve seen on more than one occasion here.
Why they gotta do anything? They don’t have any huge holes they need to fill. Joba and Hughes are under our control for years to come. They both have options. Andy and Javy are on one year deals. You can never have too much pitching.
I just don’t understand it.
Uncle-
“Blackbird singing the dead of night.
take these broken wings and learn to fly.
All your life.
You have been waiting for this moment to arrive.
Blackbird….Bye”
“The yanks felt there were three pitchers potentially available that were in a class by themselves in terms of being difference makers – Hallady, Lee, and Vazquez.”
Gotta be honest, CB. I’m not buying this at all. This guy is going to help, but difference maker? Mentioned in the same breath as Halladay? Well, let’s just say we’ll see how much they really believe that when he hits free agency.
MTU — You are not funny. Please stop or text your “humor” to some of your middle school classmates.
No one knows for certain what anyone offered, asked for or anything else. It’s really a stretch to critique someone (Cashman) over something you know nothing about.
Dye is okay, even if he was awful early last year. He fits the lineup well, especially if Hoffman proves worthy of being the 5th OF and can provide late inning defense.
Was it really necessary to start kicking around the steroid nonsense again? To paraphrase the late great John Lennon, All we are saying… is give Sanctimony a Rest….
Chip i understand, but many of us still believe that Joba has a future on this team, he just needs to refocus. This year will go a long way to seeing his future, now that he is off the innings limit. He knows his fastball was 5mph slower this year. he has to be in better shape and a year off the tendinitis may help too.
m
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:50 pm
GB7,
Thanks. He looked very comfortable doing an interview, not so many 19 year olds do, haha. And oh, that face! Very marketable.
He’s not all that big. Sounds like he’s prepared to keep working to become a better catcher.
————————————————————
Mel, he’s a big kid, but, surprisingly, it’s not baby fat. He’s built like a linebacker. His hands are qick and soft behind the plate. It was his footwork that needed work.
little side bar…if it’s DeSosa check out his better half
Bodhisattva,
Perhaps the Braves didn’t want McAllister or Nova? You are assuming that they would have done the deal for any pitching prospect, maybe the Braves really wanted Vizcaino?
86-
I am not rying to be sanctimonius.
If it appears that way to you.
I apologize.
I think all of the love for Bucholtz and the diminished love for Hughes and Joba has more to do with how the season ended for the three pitchers.
Joba didn’t succeed as a starter after his awesome trade deadline stretch and then the Yankees jerked him around and skipped starts and what not so by the end of the season it appeared he had a bad season.
Even though he pitched well in the pen at times in the playoffs, it still could be perceived he took a step back and is just a reliever to some.
Hughes, on the other hand, wasn’t himself in the post season. He was so dominant in the set up role up until the playoffs that when he scuffled in the playoffs and the team had to use other options for his role, it also lent to a perception that he finished poorly.
Laptops, on the other hand, had a nice smooth ride against teams who had packed it in for the season. That said, he finished with a positive hence all the love he gets.
I don’t think any of the above means anything. Laptops still has to prove he can handle a full season in the rotation in the majors.
Joba has to prove he has his stuff back as a starter, otherwise he’ll be sent to the pen to jack it up for an inning a night.
Phil has to prove that he can pitch as a starter and that his secondary stuff has improved enough to get major league hitters out.
The jury is still out on all 3 of these pitchers and I think in our case it’s why Cashman could not go into next season with Joba and Phil locked into the 4 & 5 spots.
That being said, I expect Joba and Phil to be dynamite this spring.
They are pitching for a rotation spot on the world champions. If that doesn’t bring out the best in them and cause them to prepare like they never had before I don’t know what will.
Nothing is being handed to either of them and Cashman wisely mentioned the dreaded AAA word which would be a major career let down after you ride down the canyon of heroes and get the key to the city accompanied by awful techno music.
As for Laptops, I think this is the season that Theo realizes he should have sold high on him. The players he may have been able to acquire for him in the past will not be there if he doesn’t pitch well from jump street.
The thing that keeps sticking out to me about Boston is they have downgraded their offense. Their pitching and defense will have to be spot on to win. There isn’t going to be much margin for error when you are trying to win 4-3 games vs. 10-4 games.
Wow, didn’t realize so little home-runs. Hope Curtis Grander-slam can make up for it or we shall a bit short for the long ball without Godzilla striking fear in the hearts of pitchers.
Wow, MLB 2k9 Updated Rosters.
I love my 2010 Yankees So far,It’s an insane lineup from one through eight spot.
Gardner being the only exception, but his speed makes up for his bat on the base paths.
MTU
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Uncle-
“Blackbird singing the dead of night.
take these broken wings and learn to fly.
All your life.
You have been waiting for this moment to arrive.
Blackbird….Bye”
good one
SOS -
I heard that last night. I think he was talking about Johnson but Tom Verducci seemed to think he was talking about DeRosa or Dye.
It was confusing because they spliced the interview together and didn’t show the entire thing so I’m not sure if there were a couple of different signings that Cash was talking about.
Bodhi,
Saint came up with some numbers yesterday that had Javy pitching to Philli and Boston 20% of his starts last year. His earned run average was 3.00. Maybe he has matured as a pitcher and most importantly is mentally tougher than he was a few years back. If he puts up those numbers again. Whats to say he doesnt resign with the Yanks next year and in the end of it all(with another championship won). It would have been well worth trading a future potential for now.
tex’s friend December 23rd, 2009 at 12:54 pm
the suggested deals for Joba are ridiculous.
Joba for Nelson Cruz?
give it up….
——————————
alright then Joba & Gardner( as of now he’s a NYY starting OFer)
Frank,
I think the yankees like Vazquez a lot. They traded for him from the expos and then tried to trade form him from the D’Backs and then also from the White Sox.
Their talent evaluators may be wrong and they may be talking up Vazquez in the press but it wouldn’t surprise me if they had Vazquez pegged as one of the 15 best pitchers in baseball.
Again, that evaluation might be wrong – but I think the club has put a big valuation on vazquez and done so for a long time.
“Gotta be honest, CB. I’m not buying this at all. This guy is going to help, but difference maker? Mentioned in the same breath as Halladay? Well, let’s just say we’ll see how much they really believe that when he hits free agency.”
He was the second most valuable pitcher in the NL last year. If that’s not a difference maker I don’t know what is.
A song recommendation for those that love great music.
Steve Earle – To Live Is To Fly
It’s a Townes Van Zandt song
“Shake the dust off your wings and the sleep out of your eyes”
Chip i understand, but many of us still believe that Joba has a future on this team, he just needs to refocus. This year will go a long way to seeing his future, now that he is off the innings limit. He knows his fastball was 5mph slower this year. he has to be in better shape and a year off the tendinitis may help too.
Tex, I don’t necessarily disagree with that optimism. My question is what do the Yankees think of Joba?
I think that if either Joba or Hughes open the season in the pen then that essentially shuts the door on them being starters in the long term with the club, especially Joba. I just don’t see them going through this whole routine of stretching him out again a year or two from now to get him back into the rotation.
It’s not all that difficult to argue that he’s one of the top 15-20 pitchers in baseball. Some numbers bear that out. Workhorse, strikeouts, low BB.
alright then Joba & Gardner( as of now he’s a NYY starting OFer)
___
getting worse. Joba isnt going for one player unless that player is a top line star. Otherwise, they have no reason to deal him and they won’t.
It’s hilarious how Cashman’s grace period is only until the parade ended, then he’s the worst GM in baseball again. Only Yankee fans.
CB,
How come there weren’t more teams in on him then? An ace pitcher with a reasonable, one-year deal and the best the Braves could get was a 4th outfielder, an oldish rookie reliever who can’t throw strikes and some kid with a live arm? Does it give you any pause that he’s been moved 5 times now in 7 some odd years?
The Braves have been pretty good about judging which arms to hold and which arms to fold. The list of guys we “stole” from them and lived to loathe (Hammond, Karsay, Wright, Farnsworth) is as long as my arm.
One big difference between them and Vazquez: only Javy’s already been here and spit the bit.
Here’s hoping I’m wrong.
Even if Hughes/Joba go to the pen this year I think they could still be starters in 2011. We are losing Pettitte/Vazquez after this year – that leaves open spots for our young guys. The thing is, the young guys have to pitch well to get spots, they aren’t going to have reserved slots in the rotation like in 2008.
It’s amazing that people are giving away Joba for nothing, yet the Sox trades involving Bucholz who has not proved anything more than Joba has is going for Adrian Gonzales or someone else?? Nelson Cruz? Hunter Pence? If anyone even entertained trading Joba I hope it would be included in a package for Miguel Cabrera or Sizemore or someone who at least is a bigtime player. You don’t trade 24 year old pitchers with Joba’s stuff. Yes he struggled last year as a starter. Look how Sanatana, Halladay, Beckett, Lester and other guys started their first full years. It’s crazy to think that you would trade him now for anything other than getting a frontline starter back. Also a little ridiculous to assume he won’t get better. Halladay was sent all the way back to single A ball he was so bad his first time around.
Just another thought I’ll throw out there when considering Joba and trade scenarios –
We all may be overvaluing Joba. If other teams consider him a potential elite starter that’s one thing, but if teams look at him as a possible starter or reliever then his value is really not any better than that of Brandon Morrow’s who was just traded by the Mariners yesterday for Brandon League, a relief pitcher who has never shown the ability to stay healthy.
Patrick
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Bodhisattva,
Perhaps the Braves didn’t want McAllister or Nova? You are assuming that they would have done the deal for any pitching prospect, maybe the Braves really wanted Vizcaino?
====
I am assuming they could have put other acceptable options before coughing up the pitcher in the system with the highest upside, yes.
Cashman desperately wanted Javy back, and to my mind, he made a desperate move to get him.
I read a tweet two days ago, during the whole Vasquez fiasco, that Cash was working on 2 or 3 deals. I wonder if one was about a Left Fielder.
Phil in the pen= sheer stupidity if they ever have hope of him becoming a good starter.
Ledger_Yankees Cashman regarding another outfielder: “It won’t be a big name situation, I can promise you that.”
5 minutes ago from TweetDeck
BloggingBombers Cashman on Johnson vs Damon in No. 2 hole: “The main thing (they’ll miss) will be the speed component. That’s not something Nick possesses.”
16 minutes ago from web
Chip,
You’re right that many may be overvaluing Joba. But you don’t just give him away.
Cashman on Johnson vs Damon in No. 2 hole: “The main thing (they’ll miss) will be the speed component. That’s not something Nick possesses.”
___
love how blunt cashman is.
Now that I’ve lost everything to you
You say you wanna start something new
And it’s breakin’ my heart you’re leavin’
Baby, I’m grievin’
But if you wanna leave, take good care
Hope you have a lot of nice things to wear
But then a lot of nice things turn bad out there
CHORUS:
Oh, baby, baby, it’s a wild world
It’s hard to get by just upon a smile
Oh, baby, baby, it’s a wild world
and I’ll always remember you like a child, girl
CB, I read it – it was fantastic. The Yankees really love this guy, so if he succeeds, isn’t it possible that he’s re-signed? Then, Andy can go and Joba/Hughes would both be in the rotation
“How come there weren’t more teams in on him then?”
He has a partial no trade clause which allows him to veto any trade to the West coast.
The Angels wanted him a great deal to replace Lackey but he wouldn’t go to LA.
Also, the Braves didn’t want to trade him in the AL East. The Mets would have wanted him a great deal.
That eliminates half of all the teams in baseball that Vazquez could feasibly be traded to.
Many of the other probably had no interest in absorbing his 12M salary.
“The Braves have been pretty good about judging which arms to hold and which arms to fold.”
That’s the past. That was John Schuerholz. He’s not there anymore and Frank Wren is not John Schuerholz.
Even if Hughes/Joba go to the pen this year I think they could still be starters in 2011. We are losing Pettitte/Vazquez after this year – that leaves open spots for our young guys. The thing is, the young guys have to pitch well to get spots, they aren’t going to have reserved slots in the rotation like in 2008.
Patrick,
As I said to Tex – I can’t imagine the Yankees going back to the drawing board and having to stretch Joba back out into a starter again if they send him to the pen to open this season.
I think this is the year they make their final decision on these guys – if Joba opens the season in the rotation I think Hughes opens in AAA, if Hughes takes the final spot I think Joba’s a reliever and there he will stay.
Also with Joba. Let’s say he does become a closer. Does anyone really want to discount Mariano Rivera’s career in pinstripes?? How important has the closer role been. Kyle Farnsworth was a closer in this league. Who are we turning the reigns over to? If Joba became a shut down closer, I would think it is safe to assume we would take him over a mediopcre LF any day of the week as a shutdown closer is not only expensive, but hard to come by.
Facts:
- Personality wise, clubhouse chemistry, yanks love Damon.
- Age with Damon is an issue, he battled injuries most of the season (some unpublished).
- Damon is not happy and adamantly feels he is worth much more than 7 mil
- Yanks org much prefers Holliday and has expressed interest to Boras.
- Boras’s asking price on Holliday is STILL off the charts.
—–
Based on the fact that the offer the yanks were prepared to make for Holliday was extremely low according to Boras, Yanks have moved on (without giving up hope) and Cash said the right things to the media. The player the yanks like a lot is Holliday, but 7/120+ is not coming out of their pocket.
I am lead to believe there is/was a formal 5/85 offer to Holliday, or there was going to be, but it was never submitted because of Boras’s persistance at hitting 9 digits.
Boras has been getting low-balled on Holliday all along, but his persistance in high-balling all teams is what has created the stand-still. The only mediator here is Holliday himself, but I am not seeing him intervene just yet.
With all that said, there is one more variable:
Hal.
“One big difference between them and Vazquez: only Javy’s already been here and spit the bit.”
One other thing – I distinctly remember the significant negativity yankee fans had towards Andy Pettite at this time last year.
Andy had a very poor second half in 2008 and people were ready to give him the boot.
How did that turn out?
Andy was pitching with a bum shoulder the second half of 2008.
Just like Vazquez was in 2004.
From Buster’s Blog this morning:
==============================================
Doubts have been raised through the years about whether Javier Vazquez can win a big game — most notably by Ozzie Guillen — but nobody can question his durability. He’s second in K’s this decade, behind Randy Johnson; he’s tied with Mark Buehrle for most 200-plus IP seasons since 2000, with nine.
From Katie Sharp of ESPN Research: “Javier Vazquez was one of the best pitchers this season in getting ahead of hitters in the count, with a first-pitch strike percentage of 67.8 that was the third best in the majors.”
Highest first-pitch strike % (2009)
Pitcher First-pitch strike % (min. 400 pitches)
Roy Halladay 68.4
Carl Pavano 68.1
Javier Vazquez 67.8
Dan Haren 67.0
Roy Oswalt 66.3
The flip side: Melky Cabrera had the fifth-lowest OPS among AL OFs in 2009.
Rival executives say that the Braves had worked exhaustively in trying to dump the contract of pitcher Derek Lowe. In the end, they had to swap Vazquez to free up dollars to pursue a hitter, David O’Brien writes.
Here’s the thing: When you looked at the Braves for 2010, they had an area of real strength on their roster — their starting pitching — that seemingly separated them from any other team. A weak offense? Perhaps. Some concerns about the bullpen? Yeah, a little. But the Braves had the chance to have dominant starting pitching.
Now, with Vazquez gone, the potential for the Braves’ rotation has gone from exceptional to merely pretty good.
I wonder if a better route would have been to keep the rotation intact and then bottom-feed on the plentiful corner-outfield and corner-infield market, and hope that the pitching sustains the team’s pennant race into July. By then, Jason Heyward will probably be in the big leagues and trade options would be more plentiful.
Down the stretch, Vazquez was throwing the ball as well or better than anybody in the National League, pounding the strike zone to get ahead in the count and then finishing off hitters with nasty fastballs. Opponents hit .229 against him in August, .196 in September/October. It’s hard to see — right now, anyway — how trading a guy that good would make the organization better for what is considered a win-now year, in 2010.
The trade of Vazquez shows that the Braves are more concerned with savings than winning, writes Mark Bradley.
http://insider.espn.go.com/esp.....ney_buster
Chip,
We’ll see.
Bod,
If the Yanks gave up more than they got back I’d agree that it was desperate. The simple fact is, they didn’t.
“How come there weren’t more teams in on him then? An ace pitcher with a reasonable, one-year deal and the best the Braves could get was a 4th outfielder, an oldish rookie reliever who can’t throw strikes and some kid with a live arm? Does it give you any pause that he’s been moved 5 times now in 7 some odd years?”
There may have been other teams “in” on him, but the Yankees made a good offer for him since it’s clear Wren & Co. love Vizcaino, and they agreed to pay his entire salary for 2010, which is one of the big things the Braves care about in this deal. $11.5 million is reasonable for the Yankees but the Braves are desperate to add offense, and it’s money they needed to open up to do so. Plus Derek Lowe is virtually untradeable given his terrible contract. I would be much angrier if Melky & Vizcaino were part of a package bringing back Derek Lowe and 3 more guaranteed years of less-than-mediocrity.
“He was the second most valuable pitcher in the NL last year. If that’s not a difference maker I don’t know what is.”
It’s a good pitcher having a great year. Stuff like that happens. I don’t doubt that last year he may have been one of the game’s 15 best pitchers, but it wouldn’t take a lot of effort to name 15 I’d rather have. Again, I’m not saying he’s not going to help or that it was anything other than a good trade for the Yankees, but this is a guy who’s overall career says something considerably different than “difference maker”
Erica – always OPPC – Bring Johnny Back!!!
December 23rd, 2009 at 11:56 am
“Instant. Classic.
I LOVE THIS SONG!!!!”
Erica-it’s all good until Johnny becomes Johnny Angel.
(of Anaheim or LA or whatever they call themselves)
Patrick – I think there will be a time in 2010 where both Phil and Joba are in the starting rotation together.
I mentioned yesterday but I think in a perfect (Yankee) world Joba wins the job to start the season. Phil, who has not started well in cold weather in the past, goes to AAA to get it ramped up, control his innings, and most importantly work on his 3rd pitch (change or cutter). Ultimately, there will be an injury to someone and Phil can step in.
What is the absolute worst case, Joba and Phil are insanely good as starters and then you can theoretically trade Vazquez who would have only 1/2 year left on the contract (i highly doubt this would ever come to pass, but you would get a very nice return). Or, you hold him and get the draft picks.
As I said to Tex – I can’t imagine the Yankees going back to the drawing board and having to stretch Joba back out into a starter again if they send him to the pen to open this season.
I think this is the year they make their final decision on these guys – if Joba opens the season in the rotation I think Hughes opens in AAA, if Hughes takes the final spot I think Joba’s a reliever and there he will stay.
___
this is why i think JOba will start and hughes will either be in the pen or AAA. Also think there is still a small chance Wang agrees to ML/Minor lEague deal and gives us depth.
m
December 23rd, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Chip,
You’re right that many may be overvaluing Joba. But you don’t just give him away.
——————
M,
I don’t think that the suggestion of dealing Joba for a 27 year old Hunter Pence is offering to “give him away”
Pence is a good fielding RF who in 3 full seasons has hit 70 HR, hits about .280 with a .340 OBP, .830 OPS and is likely just going to get better.
Look, if they’ve got too much pitching then this is the logical thing to do.
Joba in the #5 since he’s stretched out. Phil to AAA to work on his secondary pitches and they can control his innings so he can pitch an entire season. That way he’s ready for a callup and can pitch in the postseason as a reliever.
I was so upset when they recalled Wang too early. While it ended up okay because Phil was lights out as a reliever, he wasn’t stretched out to step into that slot. Thus we went with Sergio Gaudin. And it retards his IP limit yet another year.
S.o.S, wasn’t me with that Javy analysis, but I like the trade regardless.
Welcome back Nick!
Great lineup thus far:
Jeter
Johnson
Tex
ARod
Posada
Granderson
Swisher
Cano
Gardner
Chip,
There’s no other way to get Pence? And I don’t think we’ve ever heard Pence and Yankees in the same breath from anyone.
S.o.S.
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Bodhi,
Saint came up with some numbers yesterday that had Javy pitching to Philli and Boston 20% of his starts last year. His earned run average was 3.00. Maybe he has matured as a pitcher and most importantly is mentally tougher than he was a few years back. If he puts up those numbers again. Whats to say he doesnt resign with the Yanks next year and in the end of it all(with another championship won). It would have been well worth trading a future potential for now.
===
In order to accept this idea that he is now mentally “tougher” means I have to first buy the premise that he was mentally “weak” in his first go-round in NY.
But I have never bought that.
I also think he will pitch well, I merely stated the obvious: this isn’t the NL and Yankee Stadium isn’t the best park for him. He is also going to face AL lineups throughout the season – not in a few inter-league games.
BUt I have never said he would not perform well as the No. 4 guy.
What I DID say, however, is that paying with Vizcaino for him was and is a mistake.
I don’t think that the suggestion of dealing Joba for a 27 year old Hunter Pence is offering to “give him away”
Pence is a good fielding RF who in 3 full seasons has hit 70 HR, hits about .280 with a .340 OBP, .830 OPS and is likely just going to get better
___
are you one of the people who downplayed Melky? Because minus 70 HRs, the rest sound like melky only melky is two years younger…
“I am lead to believe there is/was a formal 5/85 offer to Holliday, or there was going to be, but it was never submitted because of Boras’s persistance at hitting 9 digits.
Boras has been getting low-balled on Holliday all along, but his persistance in high-balling all teams is what has created the stand-still. The only mediator here is Holliday himself, but I am not seeing him intervene just yet.”
If true this is just really something. How many clients is Scott going to torpedo in this bad economy?
I really do wonder if the whole hitting 9 digits issue is much more about boras’s reputation than Holliday’s value.
If the yanks offerred 95M and that was the true bottom line, would Scot recommend the offer?
If Boras is holding out that Hal is going to be the “one dumb owner” he is really playing a losing hand.
Trading a kid from short season A Bal. For a guy who was the second best pitcher in the NL is not a “desperate” trade by Cadhman.
You over value just about every prospect in the farm system.
Viz has a great arm for a 19 yr old kid. Truth be told, that’s all ANYBODY in the talent evaluation business can say about him at this time.
When you can get a Javy Vasquez for a kid 4 years away from the majors, and that’s if all goes right for him, you do it.
The Yankee farm system is loaded with RH arms. Especially at the lower levels.
Cashman traded from an organizational position of depth and not desperation.
Jeter
Johnson
Tex
ARod
Posada
Granderson
Swisher
Cano
Gardner
___
if you go LH, RH like Girardi likes to do, then you get something more like
jeter
nj
tex
alex
grandy
posada
cano
swish
gardner (if you believe he will start)
Chip,
I don’t get you. Are you a troll who’s sole purpose is to parrot average to slightly above average corner outfielders as possible Yankee targets? You seem infatuated with truly mediocre players.
Hunter Pence is not a good return for Joba Chamberlain. He just isn’t.
If you want to trade Joba, fine. Give me a good return though, not Hunter Pence.
Lost, thank you for that clear update.
Finally, finally. It all makes sense.
Of course the Yankees want him, but not at 7/120.
5/90 with an option year 6–it’s the best he’ll get anywhere. Noone wants to start the bidding, figuring he will use one against the other.
Since Holliday is a want, not a need, it’s who blinks first.
DT – OPPC member
December 23rd, 2009 at 1:12 pm
Erica-it’s all good until Johnny becomes Johnny Angel.
(of Anaheim or LA or whatever they call themselves)
***********
HISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
…also, ERA isn’t a great pitching stat. His peripherals I’ve looked at, though, and they are good. Again – he’s been doing this against NL lineups.
Also, S.o.s. – though smitten Cash may be with Vasquez, he’s not going to want to re-sign a guy who will be 34 to a long-term deal, no matter what kind of year he has for us in 2010.
The Yankees found the 1-year attractive.
Lost-
thanks for the update.
IMO no one is gonna give MH what the 2 of them appear to be asking for.
Sooner or later I would wonder if they wouldn’t be forced to
concede.
The Yanks appear to be holding firm so far but Hal could intervene ?
Thank you for the info.
I think that lowers the odds considerably.
MH can always take the Cards offer if he wishes.
cashman wouldnt even include joba in a deal for halladay, so i think it is safe to say hunter pence shouldnt be fitted for pinstripes just yet.
Just one more on Joba.
Joba, Brandon Morrow and Max Scherzer are all very similar guys in very similar situations. They are 24-year old, hard throwers with good secondary pitches who no one knows for sure if they’re starters or relievers. We’ve seen two of the three traded this winter for a combination of Edwin Jackson, Ian Kennedy, and Brandon League.
That said, I think the idea that “oh we can’t trade Joba unless we’re getting a top five player in return” is a more than a little foolish.
The player is going to blink, since that is the true market. The Wilpons don’t have the cash, or they’d be the dumb owner.
Pitt-
I am not sure the Yanks are gonna keep playin the game of chicken.
What do you think ?
Movin on time ?
Or will they concede and work another POV ?
A partial list of the high upside arms (perhaps not as high and some have questions of health etc) as Vizcaino:
ML – Joba and Phil.
AAA – Nova who has been getting much love of late. ZMac who does not have the ceiling but is much more likely to reach his floor, Horne/Kontos/Garcia all with big injuries to come back from.
AA – Bleich from the left side and needs results to match stuff, Phelps made a huge leap forward, Mitchell has been impressive so far.
A and below – Banuelos (from the left side), Ramirez, Brackman, Heredia, Warren, Stoneburner, Cotham.
DR – Chris Cabrera
This is off the top of my head. Now Vizcaino had a great, great upside but there are 15 other guys who are ready and willing to step up. Plus you will likely get a high first round pick for Vazquez if he is not resigned.
CB:
“If Boras is holding out that Hal is going to be the “one dumb owner” he is really playing a losing hand.”
Hal was extremely happy about the championship. For so many reasons. He got a taste of championship, and is guilty of wanting more. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
Seriously, if we wanted to pay Holliday, plain and simple.. we can. The market has defined itself this off-season.. but I don’t think you can point the finger. Think about it, before end of season last year.. what did you think Holliday would wind up getting this year? I am sure it was much more than 5/85 ..
It’s almost as ifthe team owners are in cahoots with each other.. nobody expected this.
gotta run out for a bit.. be back later.
Vazquez was not the second best pitcher in the NL last year. Can we please stop with that.
Vazquez was only the second best pitcher in the NL in a world in which FIP is the be all and end all of metrics to evaluate pitching.
If “advanced metrics” or conversely, common sense, were used it would be clear that Vazquez was not better than Carpenter.
Javy Vazquez will show up. He has to because he will be a free agent next year and he will have to perform for his last big contract of his career.
Thats another plus. Pitchers tend to step up their game even more in the final year when a contract is on the line.
M,
Oh there’s absolutely no leadup to a Pence for Joba deal – I was just reading a lot of posts from people annoyed at the idea of the Yankees looking for a short-term solution in the OF and was suggesting a long term one. I personally don’t think that the Astros have any intention of dealing Hunter Pence.
Patrick,
As I said, I think you’re being unreasonable in your aspirations for what Joba would return to the Yankees at this point. If two very similar guys who have had very similar results are netting their teams Edwin Jackson, Ian Kennedy and Brandon League then I don’t see Joba netting the Yankees Adrian Gonzalez or someone of that ilk. That said, Pence is a very good outfielder who is only going to improve.
Tex,
Melky = Pence – come on, that’s a little silly.
SJ44
December 23rd, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Trading a kid from short season A Bal. For a guy who was the second best pitcher in the NL is not a “desperate” trade by Cadhman.
You over value just about every prospect in the farm system.
Viz has a great arm for a 19 yr old kid. Truth be told, that’s all ANYBODY in the talent evaluation business can say about him at this time.
When you can get a Javy Vasquez for a kid 4 years away from the majors, and that’s if all goes right for him, you do it.
The Yankee farm system is loaded with RH arms. Especially at the lower levels.
Cashman traded from an organizational position of depth and not desperation.
====
You are the worst straw man on this site.
If I over valued Ian Kennedy and cried about losing him, I challenge you to find the post.
I just finished differentiating between Nova/McAllister and Vizcaino – so much for your overvaluing “just about everyone” in the Yankee system.
And I know all about Ramirez, Cabrera and Stoneburner and the alleged misgivings about Vizcaino’s conditioning, etc.
I’m still not dealing that arm for Javy.
By the way, you wanted Robinson Cano replaced by Orlando Hudson.
I’ll stick by my own hunches about who is worth keeping, thanks all the same.
As long as there are 5+ Cheap one year type options available for LF the Yankees should be in no rush. They are in a position to wait Holliday out now that they have filled every other need. Wait in the guy you really want, if he comes to you great, if not Damon or someone else will still be around. And they do have GGBG as a last resort.
Chip,
you’ve been misinformed.
“Also, the Braves didn’t want to trade him in the AL East. The Mets would have wanted him a great deal.”
So he wasn’t good enough for them to keep but he’s so good in their eyes that he’s going to make the Mets a contender?
Why wasn’t Boston in on him before braeking the bank for Lackey long-term? Or Baltimore? Or Milwaukee? Or the Cubs? There are alot of teams who don’t play on West Coast and can use an “ace” on a one-year deal.
I still say that the people who know him best seem to like him least. That bothers me.
you can’t spell history without a good HISSSSS.
Erica, did you see Damon kissing that grandma Mrs. Claus on MLB Network last night? The TV panel said he should get 20 mil for that alone.
My bad Saint. All i know is the A.L. east is not what it was in 04. Sox lineup is weaker as are the Jays and O’s. Im usually against picking up n.l. pitchers. But Javy did well the first half with the Yanks and continued to be consistant with the W.Sox. As far as Viscaino goes. He IMO is a crapshoot. All prospects are. Who’s that pitcher that SJ44 said had the best stuff but couldnt stay healthy? Garcia?
CB,
For a guy talking about how much innings pitched effects value I’m surprised you would say Carpenter was better than Vazquez in 2009.
Vazquez threw 219.1 innings compared to Carpenter’s 192.2. Vazquez struck out 238 batters, Carpenter struck out 144.
And although I think FIP is an ok stat I like xFIP far more. Vazquez had a 2.82 xFIP while Carpenter had a 3.38 xFIP.
To me it’s very clear that Vazquez was better. Why do you prefer Carpenter?
The Yankees should just give Holliday/Boras an offer that is 5 years for 85, but has a 6th year option that puts it in the 100 million range that is easily obtainable provided he’s healthy in year 5.
Boras gets his 9 figure number and the Yankees get Holliday at holiday prices.
I still think the “shame of the payroll” routine is a farce. If the Yankees don’t spend on Holliday it’s because they don’t believe in him as a player.
I believe in the front office’s ability to evaluate right now. They’ve been doing a great job. I still haven’t seen what gem we’ve traded away that has come back to haunt us.
I’ve said it before on Vizcaino, if he was as good as some are making him out to be, he’d be untouchable and would never have been dealt for a 1 year rental pitcher.
Some are making this kid out to be the next Felix/Pedro.
If the Yankees thought that was remotely a possibility they never would have traded him.
“Think about it, before end of season last year.. what did you think Holliday would wind up getting this year? I am sure it was much more than 5/85 ..”
I hear you and I’m sure Holliday must be very confused and dissappointed.
That said, I didn’t think Holliday was going to get a Tex contract and I didn’t think he’d even get a Soriano contract.
I just didn’t see huge market demand for him. The team that needed him most was the Red Sox – and they just didn’t seem very interested.
The Dodgers – not with the divorce. Giants – not interested due to the money. Braves – cash constrained.
St. Louis clearly wanted him but I didn’t see where robust demand was going to come for him at anywhere near the dollars boras was asking.
So 5/85 is lower than I would have guessed but I would have pegged it more likely that he’d wind up with 5/85 than he would 7/150.
I would have pegged it Beltran money. But that doesn’t seem to be where the negotiations were oriented to beging with. Perhaps they are now, but in many ways it might be too late as the price point seems to be lower than what might have been reasonable earlier.
my prediction.. yanks trade mitre or gaudin for cash.. sign damon or derosa for 1 year deal and call it an offseason..
m -
I think Javy will be fine for the Yankees. I like five in fenway’s scenario for the start of the season as a better way to manage Phil Hughes.
Thanks for asking about the stress level. Well, all in all, I guess it’s okay. I think I’m a wound a little tighter than usual, but I’m managing it better (I think). I was able to share a long conversation with my sister yesterday that helped.
This is just a time in my family’s life that many things are in flux. All the “sandwich generation” stuff coming to the fore.
Don’t be so sensitive and such a crybaby.
Just because YOU wouldn’t trade him doesn’t make it the wrong move.
Except for sofa scouts, there are very, very, very few untouchable kids in short season ball.
They are either kids that show unusual power or are good LH arms. Other than that, everybody is fair game, especially RH pitchers.
When challenged, you cherrypick posts.
You pump guys that the organization have little or no confidence in being able to contribute for various reasons. Like Christian Garcia, for example.
If your OPINION is, the trade was a desperation move by Cashman, of course you are entitled to it.
However, to state it as a FACT, given how baseball talent evaluators look at players, is factually incorrect.
Fans put more stock in short seasonhuys than teams do for one simple reason. Too much can happen to a kid on the road to the majors.
That’s why teams prefer to trade for knowns every chance they get. Especially pitchers.
It was only a little more than a year ago when Alan Horne and Ian Kennedy were supposed to be “the next big thing”. There are extremely few “can’t miss” 18-19 year old prospects.
Word from Heyman is DeRosa has at least one 2 yr offer on the table right now from the Giants.
I believe SJ endorsed Orlando Hudson over Cano when the idea was Cano was hypothetically being traded for Matt Kemp.
Quite an important part to leave out.
Chip-
There’s no reason to trade Joba for Hunter Pence when you could just sign Marlon Byrd instead.
Joba, Gaudin, Gardner and Mark Melancon for Shin-Soo Choo makes more sense, IMO.
“There are extremely few “can’t miss” 18-19 year old prospects.”
He’s four levels of minor league baseball away from the majors. A lot can happen to a pitcher making that type of journey and some of it is bad.
The Ladies Auxiliary Society has yet to announce their ruling on the Vasquez trade.
Stay tuned !
DT – OPPC member
December 23rd, 2009 at 1:30 pm
you can’t spell history without a good HISSSSS.
Erica, did you see Damon kissing that grandma Mrs. Claus on MLB Network last night? The TV panel said he should get 20 mil for that alone.
**********
Yes. I was oddly jealous of that old lady (who was not me for the record. I am not old nor a blonde)
randyhater
The Braves have alot of pitching so they could afford to get rid of Vazquez. Second, they needed to free up some money to get some offense. Third, The Red Sox most likely didn’t go after Vazquez because Lackey wanted to be a Red Sox and Theo needed to respond to the Yankees winning the World Series.
SJ44
December 23rd, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Don’t be so sensitive and such a crybaby.
=====
This kind of tactic is that of a bully.
It’s transparent.
I’m not taking the bait, pal.
I didn’t even read the rest of the post.
I will debate with people here who show respect to their fellow posters.
You are not one of them, and that’s probably the most diplomatic thing I can say about you.
Orlando Hudson for LF! lol just kidding
Joba, Gaudin, Gardner and Mark Melancon for Shin-Soo Choo makes more sense, IMO.
___
4 major league players for one right fielder?
glad you arent running the team.
i also like ortiz bashing as much as apparently everybody here does, but why do people buy arod’s story about when he started (and that he’s not currently on ped’s) but reject ortiz’s similar claims out of hand?
would is shock any of you to find out that either (or both) are now using some new type of ped which isnt yet testble?
theres no reason to condemn ortiz and give arod, clemens, pettitte, giambi and who knows how many others a pass.
ortiz was a great clutch hitter who is now in decline. it happens, and its gonna happen to arod.
had to leave the melky banner up for another day, he did bring us a starter….
five iron from fenway
December 23rd, 2009 at 1:24 pm
A partial list of the high upside arms (perhaps not as high and some have questions of health etc) as Vizcaino:
ML – Joba and Phil.
AAA – Nova who has been getting much love of late. ZMac who does not have the ceiling but is much more likely to reach his floor, Horne/Kontos/Garcia all with big injuries to come back from.
AA – Bleich from the left side and needs results to match stuff, Phelps made a huge leap forward, Mitchell has been impressive so far.
A and below – Banuelos (from the left side), Ramirez, Brackman, Heredia, Warren, Stoneburner, Cotham.
DR – Chris Cabrera
This is off the top of my head. Now Vizcaino had a great, great upside but there are 15 other guys who are ready and willing to step up. Plus you will likely get a high first round pick for Vazquez if he is not resigned.
————————————————————
Three other pitchers that i’m anxious to see in Charleston are Francisco Rondon, Ben Watkins and especially Sean Black.
They also have three outfielders soming in from Staten Island are Deangelo Mack, Zoilo Almonte and even more, Neill Medchill.
Wave Your Hat December 23rd, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Chip-
There’s no reason to trade Joba for Hunter Pence when you could just sign Marlon Byrd instead.
Joba, Gaudin, Gardner and Mark Melancon for Shin-Soo Choo makes more sense, IMO.
——————-
That trade cant be serious I hope
“To me it’s very clear that Vazquez was better. Why do you prefer Carpenter?”
Patrick,
I wrote a very detailed reply to your question. It keeps getting caught in this stupid filter.
I’ll try to repost it later or in another thread.
A lot can happen to a pitcher before he reaches his potential. Like a bar fight. Or TJ. Or recurring injuries. It’s a cruel, cruel game that doesn’t always reward potential or desire.
GLove,
exactly. But, that gets left out when challenged.
Look, we all have opinions and players we would love the organization to keep.
My point is simply, there is too small a sample size of kids at the lower levels of ANY organization to accurately predict success.
It’s why you always draft as many pitchers as possible.
There is power in numbers.
Joba for Shin Soo Choo? Really?
Ok thanks CB.
This filter is becoming a problem, I hope someone is working on fixing it.
tex’s friend-
You’re right, Cleveland would probably laugh at Joba, Gaudin, Gardner and Melancon for Choo.
Actually, if I had to, I’d add Montero to the deal.
The filter is a real headache. No idea what is going on with it this past week.
Ham Fighters laughing at all the melky haters
I’m sorry but Ortiz was a nobody before 2003 around the age of 29. You don’t go from being a nobody at the age to being a 40 + homerun hitter over night.
I’m not giving a pass to A-rod or anyone else because alot of baseball players used roids but Ortiz is a phony and he is not the greatest Clutch hitter ever.
“Yes. I was oddly jealous of that old lady (who was not me for the record. I am not old nor a blonde)”
LOL Erica – I didn’t think it was you. But you DID come to mind.
With Cashman, never say never when it comes to Damon.
If they want it done, it can get done.
They can get creative.
2 years for 14 mil. with a 3 mil. buyout option for either side in 2011.
This way Damon gets his 10 mil. (if he walks after one year)
The Yanks keep under their imaginary salary cap.
Are we done now? Enough bickering about who said what and who can’t differentiate opinion from fact. There are a lot of posters here who actually know something about evaluation, and most of us would be best served learning something from them.
But that doesn’t mean we have to agree. Numbers and ‘facts’ can still be evaluated, subjectively and objectively. Numbers don’t always tell the whole story, but they do help to add background to decision-making.
Let’s move on to discuss where we are and what’s next with this offseason. Is LF set? Is the BULLPEN set? Shoot, I even want to know who’s in Scranton this season!
Wave Your Hat
December 23rd, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Chip-
There’s no reason to trade Joba for Hunter Pence when you could just sign Marlon Byrd instead.
Joba, Gaudin, Gardner and Mark Melancon for Shin-Soo Choo makes more sense, IMO.
—————————-
Two things:
1. The only reason I even brought up Pence was because people were tired of talking about stop-gap players like Byrd. I do not think there is a Joba for Pence trade in the works nor do I think there would be.
2. Gaudin and Gardner are throw-ins, what you’re suggesting is really Joba and Melancon for Choo – I don’t have a huge problem with it, but I’m not sure that it’s something the Indians would consider right now.
Amazing what those Dominican milkshakes can do for ya
CB,
I’ve been figuring out some of the filter issues. If a word has a “bad” word comprised innocently inside it’s spelling it’s causing a block.
I figured out that by not using another word for “headstrong” that has a word that relates to the male anatomy in it, my posts would go through.
Bodi,
you have called me worse on here.
Funny how sensitive you become when challenged on minor league players.
I understand why you wouldn’t read the post because it would mean you would learn how organizations view players at the lower levels.
Far be it from me to inject a few facts into the debate.
Chip-
See my 1:52pm post.
“would is shock any of you to find out that either (or both) are now using some new type of ped which isnt yet testble?”
It would shock me. There is no evidence to suggest it, unless you are positing that any type of good performance is evidence of PED use. That’s a little too much of “if she floats she’s a witch” for me.
Deolis Guera was called the “right handed Santana” by Mets fans and they were upset to give him up (For SANTANA!) because he was in Low-A and coming off a great year?
Now? Injury problems coupled with mediocre numbers and he is now a non-prospect.
So my Johnny Damon radar just went off and told me that he is working behind the scenes with the Yankees to return.
(OKay, I do not have Johnny Damon radar, I was tipped off)
Chip December 23rd, 2009 at 1:54 pm
2. Gaudin and Gardner are throw-ins, what you’re suggesting is really Joba and Melancon for Choo – I don’t have a huge problem with it, but I’m not sure that it’s something the Indians would consider right now.
———————
There has got to be a package for Choo that doesn’t have to involve Chamberlain. It might be a better idea to wait until he starts hitting costly arbitration, because the Indians have been really stingy paying players as of late.
ex’s friend December 23rd, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Joba, Gaudin, Gardner and Mark Melancon for Shin-Soo Choo makes more sense, IMO.
___
4 major league players for one right fielder?
glad you arent running the team.
—————————————–
not one of those 4 major league players is legit as of yet
Come September when Vasquez is cruising to a 17-10 record, the chant here will be about resigning him, and all the talk about a 19 year old A ball kid will be a distint memory
Tom December 23rd, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Deolis Guera was called the “right handed Santana” by Mets fans and they were upset to give him up (For SANTANA!) because he was in Low-A and coming off a great year?
Now? Injury problems coupled with mediocre numbers and he is now a non-prospect.
—————
That Santana trade was brutal for the Twins. Gomez is a glorified pinch runner and Guera is now a nobody. Not surprised their old GM got canned.
Apparently the filter only eats intelligent comments, hence the reason CB is having so much trouble..
And Mr. Humber who I believe got released or went in the Rule 5 draft or something
Erica, spill it!
Other than Hanley Ramirez, I can’t remember a single “can’t miss prospect” traded for a star that has really taken off in recent years.
I think Cashman should call the Marlins for Cody Ross. He would be a great #9 hitter , who could hit at least 25 bombs and has a good glove. The Marlins have a crowded OF already. If they want Maybin, the Marlins have to do something to their OF.
“To me it’s very clear that Vazquez was better. Why do you prefer Carpenter?”
I know the differences in innings pitched. Vazquez threw more innings. But nonetheless, Carpenter was in fact that much better than Vazquez on a rate basis and made up for the difference in innings pitched through that difference in rate.
It’s a testament to how good Carpenter was last year.
FIP has become such a poorly used statistic it just remarkable. It has a very narrow use that has been completely blown out of proportion to the construct it represents.
How can a statistic that simply ignores how hard most balls are hit be given such importance?
FIP tells you that a ball hit off of Roy Halladay (a pitcher that no one can square up consistently) has an equal probability of being turned into a non-home run basehit as a ball hit off of say Livan Hernandez.
Do you really believe that?
FIP has a very narrow use. Beyond that it’s just a small piece of data that can contribute to an overall evaluation of a pitcher.
I personally think ERA has been abandoned to a degree that is really not called for. And if you look at WAR by ERA Carpenter was more valuable by a significant margin – despite the difference in innings pitched.
But forget ERA. Let’s just stick to “advanced metrics.”
If you want to base global evaluations of pitching on one context neutral pitching stat, tRA is much more appropriate to do so than FIP because it provides a much larger picture of what kind of contact a pitcher allowed.
Last year Chris Carpenter by tRA – even throwing fewer innings – was a 6.3 WAR pitcher.
Last year Vazquez – throwing more innings – was a 5.8 WAR pitcher.
Now I don’t think those two numbers are so substantively different in the big picture of things to say one was better than the other. But when looking at everything across the board Carpenter was better – even cumulatively.
And the primary reason that Vazquez has been thought of as better than Carpenter is almost entirely based on his FIP related WAR. That’s just part of the picture.
I’ve found this whole debate about Vazquez to be strangely misguided.
G.Love,
Thanks so much! I now understand that a synonym for “evaluation” that starts with an a- if a big no no!
I’d be very wary about giving Vasquez a big deal, even if he comes off a good year for us. Not with the other pitchers on the market, who are younger than Vasquez by the way.
I’m also only going to read posts that agree with me from now on!
Although, I may have to read a portion of your post to realize you don’t agree with me.
Then I will stop reading it and be victorious!
DaSaint007
December 23rd, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Erica, spill it!
******
I don’t have details. Thats all the info I have. Although, I do have the massive power of hope and optimism and being Erica
The Yankees gave up A Jax, Coke and Kennedy for Granderson an All-Star and you want to give up Joba, Melancon, Gardner and Gaudin for Choo who mind you struck out 151 times in 583 atbats?????
SJ44,
I think it is actually you who has learned something, and I’m not talking baseball.
You do not debate in earnest.
Have a pleasant day.
The following is not directed at anyone in particular
Who gives a *bleep* about who endorsed what and when?
Yes, it’s nice to be right from time to time, but since none of us actually are responsible for making any major, or minor, player transactions who the *bleep* cares?
The idea of these blogs is to come on and share OPINIONS and SPECULATE and to, from time to time, throw out outside the box ideas that will never ever in a million years happen, and argue about whether or not Derek should have moved off short for Alex or if Paulie’s #21 should be in monument park or if the Yankees should have signed Carlos Beltran instead of dealing for Randy Johnson (and yes they should have).
I’m sorry to say this during the holiday season, but if you’re on this board to keep score about how many times you can say “I was right” or to try and convince people that you’re some kind of expert – then you really need to re-evaluate your priorities and maybe get a dog or something.
Do I really believe the Yankees are going to deal Joba Chamberlain for Hunter Pence – no I do not. But, as I have no power to make such a move, what possible harm is there in discussing the possible advantages/disadvantages of such a move? Do I think Ryan Church is a superstar outfielder and is a lock to be the Yankee RF in 2010? Nope – but until they sign someone then what harm is there in making the suggestion?
Here’s another suggestion – stop taking this stuff so seriously. There are a ton of things more important that who was right, who was wrong and who said what on a Yankee blog.
I guess you can kind of say Adam Jones was a can’t miss prospect that was traded for Bedard. He looks like he may be the real deal.
Oh I forgot his real name isn’t David Ortiz it’s David Arias. LOL !
I’m curious as to what people’s projections are in terms of W-L records for our currently constructed starting rotation. Here’s mine:
CC 19-10
AJ 16-12
Pettitte 14-12
Javy 16-9
Joba 12-8
“I don’t have details. Thats all the info I have. Although, I do have the massive power of hope and optimism and being Erica”
Damon or any other free agent is running out of time if they want to reach a tentative deal with the Yankees this year. I’m pretty sure the Yankees will shut down their offices after today until January 4th.
“The Yankees gave up A Jax, Coke and Kennedy for Granderson an All-Star and you want to give up Joba, Melancon, Gardner and Gaudin for Choo who mind you struck out 151 times in 583 atbats?????”
Granderson is paid $5.5MM, Choo $420K. And Choo is better than Granderson.
Ham Fighters laughing at all the melky haters
December 23rd, 2009 at 1:47 pm
i also like ortiz bashing as much as apparently everybody here does, but why do people buy arod’s story about when he started (and that he’s not currently on ped’s) but reject ortiz’s similar claims out of hand?
would is shock any of you to find out that either (or both) are now using some new type of ped which isnt yet testble?
theres no reason to condemn ortiz and give arod, clemens, pettitte, giambi and who knows how many others a pass.
ortiz was a great clutch hitter who is now in decline. it happens, and its gonna happen to arod.
————————————————————
You’re either Pete A or you’ve been getting a little chummy with him…using his arguements about secret designer steroids. It could just as well apply to Posada, sabathia or Jeter. They all have the money to fund such purchases. seems logical to me.
Chip,
I only read a portion of your post before you wrote “get a dog or something” which I already have 2 dogs so I realized I was disagreeing with your post and then I stopped reading it to write this sharply worded retort.
Holliday – Yes
1- LF locked up for 5 years no chasing year to year option
2- 5 hole protection for cleanup hitter
3- Power to all fields
4- He wants to be a Yankee
5- Helps defend title during that 3 year window of Jeter,Posada,Pettitte, Mo that started last year
6- Sounds like a good guy and wouldn’t hurt chemistry
7- Just makes sense doesn’t it
Holliday – No
1- Takes payroll over 200mm. Why is this an issue? Is the 200mm mark the break even mark for the entire organization as far as making or losing money? If so then ok, if not then do what you have to do to put the best team on the field to defend title
2- Rest of baseball world will further perceive us a greedy – Really?
3- Alters plan for next year. What is that plan, Crawford, Jeter to LF?
4- Too many guys locked up on long term deals – Really?
5- They just don’t think he’s worth it – OK, I can live with that
6- They like Gardner – Really?
7- They think whoever they get for 4mm is good enough for this year – Really?
Bottom line is that to get him it’s all on Hal. Be a Steinbrenner and order Cash to sign him to backloaded contract so we are within reason this year and Cash doesn’t look like a liar.
“That Santana trade was brutal for the Twins. Gomez is a glorified pinch runner and Guera is now a nobody. Not surprised their old GM got canned.”
It wasn’t their old GM that made the trade, it’s their current GM.
I would definitely trade Montero for Choo straight up. Choo is underrated, and would have at least .950 OPS.
“Other than Hanley Ramirez, I can’t remember a single “can’t miss prospect” traded for a star that has really taken off in recent years.”
Adam Jones
Franklin Guittierrez
Neftali Feliz
Elvis Andrus
For the most part, teams are holding onto top prospects with dear life now so not that many are being traded.
Johnson, Vasquez and Thames. Third times a charm. Three exes makes a charm.
Love the pros & cons from YankeeRay!
But I’d pass.
Ed – campaigning for Josh Willingham (it worked for Gaudin)
December 23rd, 2009 at 2:01 pm
I think Cashman should call the Marlins for Cody Ross. He would be a great #9 hitter , who could hit at least 25 bombs and has a good glove. The Marlins have a crowded OF already. If they want Maybin, the Marlins have to do something to their OF.
—-
Obviously I’m all over Holliday but this is a good call Ed.
Phranchise,
Adam Jones was an upper level player at the point he was traded for Bedard. He already played a bit with Seattle. I remember him making a ridiculous catch against the Yankees as a rookie in Seattle.
He was about as “can’t miss” as you’ll get since he his talents were obvious at the major league level.
Joba & Melancon have to prove themselves (over-hyped)…Gardner has speed and plays average OF (can’t hit)..Gaudin was any good the Yankees wouldn’t need Vasguez
“would is shock any of you to find out that either (or both) are now using some new type of ped which isnt yet testble?”
It would shock me. There is no evidence to suggest it, unless you are positing that any type of good performance is evidence of PED use. That’s a little too much of “if she floats she’s a witch” for me.
murph, you’re a lawyer, taking into account prior actsand proven poor credibility, you have to accept that this is possible.
but my original point is that we shouldnt be PED bashing anyone since so many yankees are in the same boat as ortiz.
If you get a good year from Javy in his contract year…. take the 2 picks, rather than giving a 34 yr old inconsistent pitcher a big deal. Do not let a contract year from an inconsistent pitcher sway you.
Especially when there are much better options on the market.
Yankee Ray,
thanks dude.
“Joba & Melancon have to prove themselves (over-hyped)…Gardner has speed and plays average OF (can’t hit)..Gaudin was any good the Yankees wouldn’t need Vasguez”
Harsh lol…. but this pretty much sums it up.
“You can never have too much pitching.”
I’m glad to see you’ve come around on that.
So daily news repots that the Yankees have 4milj to spend on a LFer for this year.How much does Derosa want a year?or Byrd?
How about Joba, Melancon, Montero for Ryan Braun?
“Bottom line is that to get him it’s all on Hal. Be a Steinbrenner and order Cash to sign him to backloaded contract so we are within reason this year and Cash doesn’t look like a liar.”
Give up this backloaded Holliday contract thing.
Holliday’s already turned down $82MM/5 yrs. A contract rich enough for Holliday and sufficiently backloaded to work in 2010 for the Yanks would be way too expensive in 2012 and 2013. When combined with CC, Tex, ARod, AJ and who knows what for Derek and Mo there won’t be enough money left over to get done what needs to be done.
Cash is a gangster. He leaked the 4 million for a LF’er number to get Boras to give us Holliday for 4 million a year. He’ll get a nice 5 year 20 million dollar contract like Igawa.
G. Love,
Well played.
People need to clam down on Melancon… his FB looked flat last year and his control was awful….
“Joba & Melancon have to prove themselves (over-hyped)…Gardner has speed and plays average OF (can’t hit)..Gaudin was any good the Yankees wouldn’t need Vasguez”
Well, that’s why I decided to sweeten the deal with Montero…
Ed – campaigning for Josh Willingham (it worked for Gaudin)
December 23rd, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Yankee Ray,
thanks dude.
—–
I live in So Fla and watch enough of him to know that he is a gritty player who always gets his uniform dirty. He can hit for power and is a plus defender. I think Holliday is the right call because of the 5 hole protection but Ross would be one of the better options out there.
You guys are skewing the debate a bit.
How many can’t miss prospects that were traded in A-ball actually became impact players in the majors?
Chip
The Yanks couldn’t get Braun without buying the whole Milwaukee franchise!
4 million to spend?
Brett Gardner it is, then!
4 mil won’t even land Byrd/Dye….
Yanks will not be trading for an outfielder, they’ll be buying one…..
Gentle People,
enough with the name calling or allegations about crying or handwringing. Can we agree to disagree in a little more civil manner. It is the Hollidays (did I misspell that?), and it would be great if we could drop the name calling and see if we can keep it out of here forever. It’s not a schoolyard.
Thanks.
“How about Joba, Melancon, Montero for Ryan Braun?”
Now why would the Brewers give up their future face of the franchise?
Instead of Marlon Byrd, how about the Yankees give 2 mil to Ryan Church and then sign either Austin Kearns or Rocco Baldelli to minor league deals as RH insurance in case Hoffmann doesn’t stick with the club.
Then you can possibly platoon in RF with Church and either Kearns or Baldelli.
“How much does Derosa want a year?or Byrd?”
$6M-$7M
Byrd rumored to be using Cameron’s deal as his model.
“but my original point is that we shouldnt be PED bashing anyone since so many yankees are in the same boat as ortiz.”
Up to a point, I agree. But the evidence gathering – - and leaking – - process was not “same boat.” The infamous Mitchell Report was horribly skewed to an anti-Yankee bias.
As for being lawyer, I can tell you that there is a limit to which you can use past behavior in a court of law to prove or infer present guilt. To infer guilt this time because of guilt last time is generally prohibited with a few narrow exceptions.
As a rational human being however, I tend to use past behavior as a predictor unless there are new disincentives to counterbalance the benefit of being bad. And I think the new testing and scrutiny in place is a huge disincentive to try secret, experimental designer PEDs.
“You can never have too much pitching.”
I’m glad to see you’ve come around on that.
=====================================
Hey, that doesn’t mean they all have to excite me!
“How about Joba, Melancon, Montero for Ryan Braun?”
why on earth would the brewers do that???
YankeeRay,
I used to live in Daytona and Orlando for 2 years, a decade ago. I always head back to Florida to visit my father. 2 summers ago, my dad surpised me to a Marlin game for my birthday. After that game, I immediately became big fans of Willingham and Ross (despite him being a platoon player at that time).
Last year was Joba’s first year as a starter. Just go back and look at most power pitchers careers early on. There is a learning curve for a starting pitcher like Joba. People need to be patient. Everyone was running Phil Hughes out of town last year and he proved he can pitch on this level. Halladay needed to go back to the minor leagues. Cliff Lee was in the minors two years ago. Santana struggled early on out of the bullpen before becoming a starter. They all have some issues early. I truly believe Joba will turn people around this year and given the history of top of the rotation starting pitchers, there is no way in heck I trade Joba + more pieces for random OFers who would be nice editions, but not superstar franchise type guys.
“You can never have too much pitching.
I’m glad to see you’ve come around on that.”
I am a firm believer in everything in moderation.
25 pitchers on a 25 man roster is too much pitching.
(unless they all hit like CC)
The Brewers would never trade Ryan Braun – just figured saying it would earn me a stern rebuke.
Ed – campaigning for Josh Willingham (it worked for Gaudin) December 23rd, 2009 at 2:18 pm
“How about Joba, Melancon, Montero for Ryan Braun?”
Now why would the Brewers give up their future face of the franchise
———————————————–
great player but the future face…will be 31 in July, I say he’s in his prime
Save the cash, Cash.
“There are a ton of things more important that who was right, who was wrong and who said what on a Yankee blog.”
Chip, while I agree with you in spirit, I don’t in principle.
What acts as a lynchpin of DISCUSSION and argument (the non-pejorative definition) is the mutual pursuit of some level of truth.
Without it, you just have a group of people talking at each other, with no incentive for exchange. A huge collection or random, unrelated musings.
Which to me is unappealing.
I also have little time or inclination for constantly qualifying my remarks with expressed respect for everyone else’s opinion.
Convincing other people your opinion is right is a basis of conversation, particularly THIS kind.
Random collections of non-sequitors or people patting each other on the back in agreement doesn’t strike me as appealing at all.
“Yanks will not be trading for an outfielder, they’ll be buying one…..”
Yes Pat M, very sensible, I do admit.
However, many kind folk here have been indulging my fantasy of getting Choo or Cruz. Can’t you get in the holiday spirit and help me out here, or do you insist on spoiling my fun?
Um, speaking of pitching, any predictions of W-L records as per our rotation?
“nick agreeing to give up defense should help him stay healthy.”
It sort of worked for him last year.
“So my Johnny Damon radar just went off and told me that he is working behind the scenes with the Yankees to return.”
I don’t see it. I think he is gone..
just hit me that
we as fans are going to lose
Johnny Damonic
The Melkman
and Godzilla
that’s alot – big wheel keeps on turning though
ed joins the swelling ranks of marlins fans now numbering in the tans of…well….tens…..
Yes indeed, Damon finally lived up to his self-proclaimed reference in 04…..he definitely is an “Idiot”.
Patrick, let’s say Phil goes to the pen this year. Of course he could be a starter in 2011, but he will have major innings limitations and his secondary pitches will have rusted badly from misuse…Joba is more advanced, so I don’t think he’d have the same issues. By the time Phil gets his sea legs under him as a pitcher, he’d be 27 years old –and so much of his youth will have been wasted. I do not want him as the set-up man this year, under any conditions.
I think NJ is going to have a great year- it’s so nice to have him back.
Just sign Nady to platoon with Gardner.
Just throwing this out there on Byrd:
Last year he hit 20 homeruns – in the 6 prior years of his career he hit 40 homeruns.
Buyer beware!
Why all the hostility today? Youd think we just traded Montero for Pavano and Matsui’s ugly etcha sketch wife. Cant we all just enjoy the 09 CHAMPS re loading?
joba was a train wreck every time he pitched in Neb,nothing has changed.. He needs a pitching coach that will spend every minute of the day with him in ST & get him straighten out
A friend of Vazquez’s told The Post the right-hander never really felt embraced by the Yankees.
“He wasn’t comfortable with Joe Torre,” the friend said. “With Torre, you are either one of his guys or not one of his guys. Javy wasn’t one of his guys.”
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....z0aXeQpXdz
CB,
I guess it all comes down to what stats you put faith in.
tRA likes Carpenter more.
xFIP likes Vazquez more.
From ESPN.COM:
“From Katie Sharp of ESPN Research: “Javier Vazquez was one of the best pitchers this season in getting ahead of hitters in the count, with a first-pitch strike percentage of 67.8 that was the third best in the majors….on the flipside: Melky Cabrera had the fifth-lowest OPS among AL OFs in 2009.
That trade was a no brainer..
Javy might be as good a pitcher as Burnett and Pettite
Uncle Ellsworth (Expert textpert choking smokers, don’t you think the joker laughs at you)
December 23rd, 2009 at 2:24 pm
just hit me that
we as fans are going to lose
Johnny Damonic
The Melkman
and Godzilla
that’s alot – big wheel keeps on turning though
********
Uncle E-
I am more convinced than ever of the return of Johnny Damon
Cashman is cool. it is by now obvious that Phil, Joba, Montero, etc, the gems of the rookie class are going nowhere. He has had the possibility of obtaining, Santana, Halladay, Clff Lee, and others and has not flinched in offering only second tier talent, sticking to his guns.
He is obviously committed to making the team younger, cheaper, more athletic and overall BETTER. I for one do not see Johnny Damon back at all. He is a defensive liability, and the new age sabermetric thinking is “pitching and defense”.
I sure would not mind Holliday. I think this is a chip that could have fallen except for the addition of Vazquez and $11.5 million.
However, if it costs only money, it may get done. Tex proved that last year.
S.O.S.,
No we can’t enjoy the 09 champs reloading! The franchise is doomed. Yesterday’s trade set us back 10 years.
Run away! Run away!
Murphydog
I agree.
And if these guys were still using PED’s then why are power numbers going down across the board in baseball ?
People need to get over the steroid era and move on.
“Why all the hostility today?”
It’s the competitive spirit.
Cabin fever.
Cancellation of our blog sensitivity training subscription.
It’s “National No More Mr. Nice Guy” Day.
Chip,
I only read a portion of your post before you wrote “get a dog or something” which I already have 2 dogs so I realized I was disagreeing with your post and then I stopped reading it to write this sharply worded retort.
=====
G.love,
Thats just took the lead for funniest post of the day.
“xFIP likes Vazquez more.”
It does Patrick, but his 2009 xFIP was an outlier.
Good pitcher who had a great year. That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it.
Byrd and Cruz both were hitters in a hitter friendly park. You would expect their numbers to be inflated because of it. Cruz would probably do well in the stadium, but keep in mind this guy was around a while and isn’t young so could be a one hit wonder. Byrd being a righty does not have any advantage in Yankees stadium. He is a nice option because he has a bit of speed, a bit of power, he hits about the same righties or lefties, he’s just not very exciting, but in a platoon with Gardner it’s not the worst option.
Betsy,
Even if Phil is in the pen again in 2010 he will have the same innings limit in 2011 – anywhere from 150-170. The Yanks haven’t made this number public, but innings limits never decrease.
Additionally, secondary pitches don’t get “rusted”. Pitchers don’t work on pitches during a game, they work on them in side sessions. If Hughes is in the pen he isn’t all of a sudden going to forget how to throw a cutter, it’s muscle memory.
Woo hoo!
We had Secret Santa today at the office and I got a Yankee book: Summers in the Bronx, by Ira Berkow. It looks like a great book, with tons of great stories about the Yankees. I’m so excited!
“Good pitcher who had a great year. That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it.”
That’s not even what we are talking about right now.
Just discussing with CB who the 2nd best pitcher in the NL in 2009 was. We aren’t really talking about how he projects going forward.
I completely believe Javy felt excluded by Torre.
All Torre’s book did for me was confirm that he played favorites.
Any active manager who puts out a book to knock his former players like he did tells me he wasn’t the mature kindly grandfather he liked us all to believe he was.
Javy was one of Torre’s guys when he pitching like an all star. When he slumped, he was treated very differently.
2004 was Torre’s worst year as a manager and yet he was still was 1 game from making the world series again, lol.
“No we can’t enjoy the 09 champs reloading! The franchise is doomed. Yesterday’s trade set us back 10 years.”
They traded Melky Cabera….I mean melky cabera…he just is not that good.
My money is on Nady signing to an incentive laden contract. If it works out, great, if not Cash will do a 7/31 or earlier deal…there will always be someone to plug in. Historically, left field has been of the lowest priority in Yankeeland… Chad Curtis, Shane Spencer etc (other than Hideki).
murphydog –
I vote for “cabin fever” and/or “visiting relatives”
S.O.S.
Watch it! Don’t pat me on the back! The quality of this blog will slip rapidly with that kind of behavior. Before we know it we’ll be a Jonas Brothers blog or something.
Cashman has his hands full over the next few years determining what to do with Romine and Montero.
It’s a good problem to have, for sure.
Yankees have the potential to be dealing from more catching depth than any team has in a long time.
Assuming Mauer resigns with Minny (as he should), what do you do with Romine and Montero from mid-2010/2011 forward?
Cash is a gangster. He leaked the 4 million for a LF’er number to get Boras to give us Holliday for 4 million a year. He’ll get a nice 5 year 20 million dollar contract like Igawa.
========
Sorry. Still trying to catch up on posts. Exchange the previous post with this one. Hillarious!!
Hat, are you cmapaigning for Nelson Cruz ???? Well then I’ll sit at your table…..
I had to laugh yesterday on the Yes network board when someone said that Cashman should be fired for the Vazquez trade and that the Yankees have fallen behind because of it.
Some people need to get a grip. The Yankees are World Champions !
Everyone wants to knock the players for making the clubhouse stale… looks like Torre played a large part in it too by isolating those who were not apart of the dynasty.
At the end of the parade they told the driver of Melky’s float to just keep going.
Stuckey -
In generality I agree with you, but to me the bottom line remains that being right or wrong here is much ado about nothing. It is not a predictor of future right or wrong-ness.
For example, SJ44 was on here the other day saying that “according to his sources” the Yankees were in serious talks with Boras and either Damon or Holliday would likely be signed within a matter of days. That didn’t happen. Doesn’t mean he’s going to be wrong the next time he says something.
As far as arguing a point goes. I agree, convincing people you’re right is fun – however you don’t have to be right to do it, and certainly don’t have to take it personally. I didn’t believe the Yankees were going to trade Joba for Pence, but I’ll certainly argue the pros and cons of such a trade and may even convince a few people that it’s a valid point of view, but whether I do or don’t doesn’t alter the fact that the next time I want to throw out a potential trade that I created in my head I’m gonna do it.
“I guess it all comes down to what stats you put faith in. ”
No. It’s quite the opposite. It really has nothing to do with the statistics themselves.
It has to do with the underlying concepts that the particular statistics are supposed to represent and how each one of those representations builds into a larger composite picture through which valid conclusions can be drawn.
This confusion is one of the single biggest problems with “sabermetrics.” It is much too focused on metrics rather than concepts and hypotheses.
For instance, I can’t imagine why one would want to use xFIP to evaluate Vazquez? That would be simply regressing away one of Vazquez’s biggest weakness – which is giving up home runs. So a pitcher like Vazquez is going to benefit from xFIP where someone like say Halladay really won’t.
But that’s not first and foremost an issue of the statistics. It’s an issue of the concept.
xFIP implicitly argues that home runs in fact aren’t intentional or “true outcomes.” Instead it posits that home runs are purely random events that are a function of fly balls. As such it “corrects” the number of home runs someone happens to give up to a function of how many fly balls they give up.
So the actual stat is completely secondary. It gets back to the concept that one would really have to debate and understand.
Do you believe home runs are largely random events? Or does a pitcher’s skill impact the batters ability to hit fly balls in a certain way which systematically makes it less likely for a fly ball hit to turn into a home run?
I personally think the concepts underlying xFIP are misguided.
Uncle Elseworth,
Did you just morph into MTU? I never remember you as a lyrics poster before. Either MTW is impersonating you or he rubbed off on you.
I know Javy V did not have a good second half of the year with the yankees in 2004..but come on..all the yankees gave up for him was melky cabera..melky cabera…Guy is a fourth outfielder…they got a really good starting pitcher..probably as good or almost as good as AJ burnett and Andy P…their starting staff is, on paper, better than last years…
Yank1 December 23rd, 2009 at 2:27 pm
A friend of Vazquez’s told The Post the right-hander never really felt embraced by the Yankees.
“He wasn’t comfortable with Joe Torre,” the friend said. “With Torre, you are either one of his guys or not one of his guys. Javy wasn’t one of his guys.”
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports…..z0aXeQpXdz
——————————
Torre treating non-dynasty players differently? Shocking!
Pat M-
Yes I was campaigning for Cruz (or Choo) and I’ll be honored to have you sit at my table!
Torre’s book pretty much confirmed for me that he did indeed play favorites and isolated players.
He was a great manager here for the most part. One of the best all time.
But his behavior after winning so many titles pretty much proved it was time for the organization to move on.
My votes are for:
1. Rick Ankeil
2. Ryan Church
3. Mark DeRosa
658. Austin Kearns
659. Vlad Guererro
in a lineup full of hitters you have to admit that if he starts Gardner is a auto out which can’t be covered up. how many times can you take it if he comes up to bat 3 times( in 6 innings) with 2 outs & men on 2nd & 3rd & he makes a out,peeps will be all over him, to go along with his average OF play..4th OF on this team for sure.
Phil The Thrill,
I wonder what kind of mileage a float gets from NYC to Atlanta. It’s gotta be ugly.
The better move would have been to sign Holliday and have both kids in the rotation (or signing Sheets to an incentive laden deal).
Prefer that to Vasquez in the rotation and Gardner in the OF. Have we really upgraded? Vasquez is probably a slight upgrade from what Joba/Hughes will be, Gardner is a clear downgrade from Melky.
“looks like Torre played a large part in it too by isolating those who were not apart of the dynasty.”
Torre has his flaws sure..but his pitching staffs between the yeaars 2004 and 2007 were just not that good..randy johnson, jaret wright, carl pavano,kevin brown, aaron small, etc..hard to win championships with that pitching staff…
Torre isn’t the first to play favorites. It’s a pretty widespread condition. It happens everywhere. Sports, Work, schoolyard, blogs…
“Vasquez is probably a slight upgrade from what Joba/Hughes will be”
Vasquez is a proven major league starter…joba and hughes have not proven at all they can even be effective major league starters…
Everyone knew Torre had favorites. Even in 1998 he played that game. He couldn’t stand David Wells though he had a great year with the Yankees and a good postseason in 1998.
Torre should have been fired after the 2004 collapse because he was one of the main reasons why they lost.
At the end of the parade they told the driver of Melky’s float to just keep going.
=======
Was Bruney driving it?
We’ve used our farm enough this winter— going for Choo or Cruz will deplete it even more. You can probably say goodbye to Romine/McAllister as well.
“Torre isn’t the first to play favorites.”
Agree and what is wrong with playing favorites to a bunch of guys he won four world titles with…
Rishi, did Buster analyze the trade from the Yanks perspective?
Guillen is a nutcase and anything he says goes in one ear and out the other
I vote for none of the above. There’s no excuse for grown people to behave worse than the 12 year olds that are often referenced here.
People need to stop calling others out, accusing them of being this or that, and calling them names. There’s no shortage of people have been able to have lively debates and discourse without the insults. Even thought they possess a fraction of the knowledge others possess in their left pinkie.
My votes are for:
1. Rick Ankeil
2. Ryan Church
3. Mark DeRosa
658. Austin Kearns
659. Vlad Guererro
====
Is there really that many free agents? Dunn 660?
Im just going to throw this out there and see if it sticks. Montero for Matthews? The M & M trade.
From MLBTradeRumors.com, “The Braves don’t consider Melky Cabrera the centerpiece of the Vazquez deal and they have yet to determine his role on next year’s team.”
Better not unpack Melky!
G.Love,
that’s a question for the arbitrator.
Person to blame most for 2004?
Mariano.
Let’s not sugarcoat it, please. Torre is a close 2nd, but he had late leads and handed it off to MO in 2 straight games and he blew it.
Blaming Brown, Vasquez, A-Rod, Gordon, etc. is misguided.
Some people don’t realize that Torre was playing favorites even during the Dynasty years. It just got worse after 2001.
The guy was good but he was an overrated manager. He had a great core of young players and solid role players to back up his legacy. Those 90′s Yankees teams were the best in baseball. Only other team that was close to them were the 90′s Braves.
Gardner is a Cody Ransom with speed, one just happens to play OF and the other IN…neither can hit & both play average D
That message was approved/proofed by GB7.
I read that also. Melky may be westward bound.
I read that also. Melky may be westward bound.
No, Torre’s not the first, nor will he be the last, to play favorites. But to me he crossed a line in his treatment of Alex.
He threw Rodriguez under the bus every chance he got – be it batting him 8th in the playoffs or giving Tom Verducci un-believable access when Verducci was doing an article slamming Alex.
The reason of course being that Jeter was Joe’s boy (for good reason) and Alex and Jeter were in a rift and so Torre took his boy’s back.
To me that was an interesting subplot when the Yankees got bounced by the Tigers – there was the suggestion that Joe could have been let go then and that Lou Pinella would have been the guy to replace him. I was wondering how the dynamic of the team would have changed if the manager went from being squarely behind Jeter to being squarely behind Alex.
Let the kids play LF; they did fine in CF last year.
Bring Hairston back for backup in both IF and OF.
Done.
The team is as good if not better now than it was going into the 2009 ST.
From MLB.com’s Mark Bowman via MLBTR on the Vazquez deal:
•The Yankees were apparently the only team willing to trade for a pitcher making $10MM or more.
•There are no hard feelings between Lowe and Braves GM Frank Wren.
•The Braves don’t consider Melky Cabrera the centerpiece of the Vazquez deal and they have yet to determine his role on next year’s team.
There’s nothing wrong with playing favorites as a manager, but when you isolate your non favorites it’s a misuse of talent.
One of the biggest jobs a manager has to is to make it all mesh.
Torre was great at it and then I think when the starting pitching wasn’t at the same talent level he had, he started to get cranky about the players who didn’t rub him the right way for whatever reason.
“We’ve used our farm enough this winter— going for Choo or Cruz will deplete it even more.”
The point is that Choo and Cruz are today, what we hope our best farm players will be someday. Both are immensely good bargains and will be for a long time.
Which is why they probably can’t be had. But I’d rather dream about that, than hope for Holliday (which won’t happen) or think about Nady (which probably will happen but doesn’t excite me over-much).
Sizemore was still in A-ball when Montreal traded him; was he integral in the package or filler?
Maybe you should blame the players for not incorporating themselves more in the clubhouse and allowing themselves to get “intimidated” by Torre and the success of the dynasty.
D-Train…I don’t blame Mariano for not being perfect. If the rest of the pen had held up that 14 bounce grounder wouldn’t have hurt. Torre had the pen burned out (again).
People need to stop calling others out, accusing them of being this or that, and calling them names.
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I stopped reading your posts right about here MEL. Yes m is really MEL!! You 18-1 lover!!
How many excuses is Vazquez going to come up with to explain how horrible he was in the 2nd half of 2004? First, it was a bad shoulder. Now, he didn’t feel comfortable with Joe Torre. How about saying “I stunk back then and I have no one to blame but myself”?
Chip:
“My votes are for:
1. Rick Ankeil
2. Ryan Church
3. Mark DeRosa”
—————————————————–
I would think Cashman is looking for someone to possibly split time with Gardner in LF. Therefore, I would guess it’s a RH bat.
If it’s not one of the following, I’d be surprised:
Thames, Byrd, Nady
I just hope Torre didn’t consider Kevin Brown one of his “favorites”
“2004 was Torre’s worst year as a manager”
No. Not even close. Nothing in 2004 compares to the 2003 world series.
He let Jeff Weaver lose game 4 (when you could see Weaver would be a disaster…) with Mariano sitting in the pen because of the old cliche that says you can’t bring your closer in to a tie game on the road.
That was just amazing.
And Girardi nearly did the same thing against the Phillies in game 4 of this world series.
“Torre should have been fired after the 2004 collapse because he was one of the main reasons why they lost.”
Some was his fault. Lot of it was odd luck. Certainly being forced to play Games 3 thru 7 over 5 consecutive nights was a big problem for them. Who knows what may have happened if the ’09 Yankees had to that rather than play the NFL-like schedule that was this year’s postseason.
Erica – always OPPC – Bring Johnny Back!!!
December 23rd, 2009 at 2:27 pm
I am more convinced than ever of the return of Johnny Damon
**************
Erica, did all of your prented conversations with Damon finally pay off??!!
ATL wanted to dump salary, but get value in return. Melky has value in his youth and versitility. Dunn is a lefty, so he will always have value, but it’s the kid they wanted IMO.
Melky becomes a FA in 2 years. Will be interesting watching his development over the next couple years.
I like the moves we have made for the most part this offseason. I think I would rather have had Matsui back than Nick Johnson. Nick will not really be playing the field much either and although he has a good OBP, I think Matsui (if he stayed healthy) would have been better. Who will be our number five hitter now? Granderson? Glad we got Vasquez but if they are not willing to spend anymore money, are we really going to be starting Gardner? I dont think we should.
The Cubs have been after Melky. ATL may package him in a deal with them.
D-Train
Yeah but Torre had a chance even after MO blew it in Game 4 when the Yankees had a lead in the 8th inning and he refused to go to Mo to close it out and went with Tom Gordon who sucked in the postseason, and then gave up the homerun to Ortiz.
I agree Mo is to blame but Torre is one of the main peple to blame. The fact that he set up the rotation in that series the way he did was stupid. He could have set it up for Mussina to go in a potential Game 7 but no he put his trust in Kevin Brown because he said he could do it knowing good and well Brown sucked.
I could see the upside in dealing for Gary Matthews so long as two things happen:
1. Angels take back Igawa and nothing else
2. Angels give the Yankees money in return.
Matthews has two years 22 mil left on his contract. If the Yankees ended up having to pay Matthews a total of 10 mil (between cash going back to the Yankees and the Igawa contract) I would be alright with that.
Im just going to throw this out there and see if it sticks. Montero for Matthews? The M & M trade.
–
Gary Matthews? Jr? This is the worst trade ever devised by man.
“How many excuses is Vazquez going to come up with to explain how horrible he was in the 2nd half of 2004? First, it was a bad shoulder. Now, he didn’t feel comfortable with Joe Torre. How about saying “I stunk back then and I have no one to blame but myself”?”
Laura,
Are you really being fair with Vazquez? The writer of this article didn’t get those quotes about Torre from Vazquez. He received them from some other source. We know you don’t like the trade, but he’s ours now and as Yankee fans we should be rooting for him to do better than he did in 2004.
CB,
You’re right, he stunk as a manager in 2003 too. How soon we forget. I think I’ve pretty much blacked that world series out of my head as it all just made no sense watching the Yankees lose to the Marlins that year.
I would think Cashman is looking for someone to possibly split time with Gardner in LF. Therefore, I would guess it’s a RH bat.
———————-
Unless he’s looking for a LH bat to split time with Jamie Hoffmann….
“He let Jeff Weaver lose game 4 (when you could see Weaver would be a disaster…) with Mariano sitting in the pen because of the old cliche that says you can’t bring your closer in to a tie game on the road.”
Agree with not losing with your primary weapon on the the bench, but Weaver whistled thru Conine, Lowell and Lee on 8 pitches and had 8,9 and 1 coming up. Best at bat of Alex Gonzalez’s life. That’s for sure.
Gardner is a Cody Ransom with speed, one just happens to play OF and the other IN…neither can hit & both play average D
========
Cody Ransom has much more pop than Gardner. Both bench warmers? Yes. I would compare Gardner with Bret Butler when it comes to being a power slappy hitter without the other plate abilities Butler possessed. Maybe a much lesser version of Podsednic.
I love the posters ignoring Javy’s “I left with a bad taste, and I want to prove myself in New York” quotes and just focusing on the ones that they can psychoanalyze into making Javy a bad person.
CB,
Good point about xFIP. Perhaps adjusting for HR rate is not a good idea but it’s still based on FIP. Can you explain why that is a bad stat?
(Sorry for the 21 questions but you seem to know a lot about this stuff)
Laura – Why aren’t more people watching FRINGE
Vazquez didn’t say that. His close friend did. And I don’t think it was an excuse his friend is just saying what a lot of former players said about Torre. That he played games.
“Gary Matthews? Jr? This is the worst trade ever devised by man.”
Agreed. I’d sooner trade Igawa for Gary Matthews Sr. and put him in left.
Gary Matthews? Jr? This is the worst trade ever devised by man.
==========
Then my plan was a total success. Just trying to loosen up the crowd. Is Sr.available though?
Alright folks, in case I don’t log on again before then I want to wish you all a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Who knows – Santa Cashman may have more things in his bag yet!
Phil the Thrill
December 23rd, 2009 at 2:35 pm
At the end of the parade they told the driver of Melky’s float to just keep going
**************
That’s awful, but I couldn’t help but laugh.
“We know you don’t like the trade, but he’s ours now and as Yankee fans we should be rooting for him to do better than he did in 2004.”
He’s a Yankee so I’ll be rooting for him to do well in 2010. But I can’t fake being happy about the trade. Just like I can’t hide the fact that I’m furious that they let Matsui get away. That one is going to stick with me for a long time to come.
Anybody think the sox will jump back in on Bay or Holliday now they the pitching advantage they did have over the Yanks has been negated?
I just don’t get why they aren’t after a bat unless ownership has cut Theo off.
Oh and when I talked about Mo blowing it in Game 4 Torre blew it in the 8th inning in game 5 by bringing in Tom Gordon instead of Mo for 2 innings to close it out.
Phil the Thrill
December 23rd, 2009 at 2:35 pm
At the end of the parade they told the driver of Melky’s float to just keep going
—————–
Coke, Damon and Matsui were on the same float. The float’s name happened to be “Swan Song”
Fellas. Lets not have the panties in a bunch party. It was a freekin joke!! I might be dumb but im not stupid.
That also was not a direct quote from Vazquez, but instead a “source close to him” who made the comment about him not being one of Torre’s guys.
Chip, that’s a bold statement! Merry Christmas
S.o.S. December 23rd, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Gardner is a Cody Ransom with speed, one just happens to play OF and the other IN…neither can hit & both play average D
========
Cody Ransom has much more pop than Gardner. Both bench warmers? Yes. I would compare Gardner with Bret Butler when it comes to being a power slappy hitter without the other plate abilities Butler possessed. Maybe a much lesser version of Podsednic.
————————————
reason for the compare is that there are people here that have no problem with Gardner playing LF,might be the same people that didn’t have a problem with Cody filling in for AROD (not knowing how he was going to come back)& that turned into a disaster.
Wow, Yank1 – that’s da***ing stuff…., but no surprise. JV will find a much more welcoming atmosphere here.
Chip
Merry Christmas.
Lets hope Santa Cashman loses your list.
G.Love,
That was perhaps his single worst decision because it happened in a world series. He put Jeff Weaver a home run prone pitcher who was very poor that year into an extra inning game with Mo on the bench.
Jose Contreras threw more innings that series out of the bull pen than Mariano did.
Just unbelievable. They partly lost the world series based on a cliche.
“That also was not a direct quote from Vazquez, but instead a “source close to him” who made the comment about him not being one of Torre’s guys.”
Yes, I see that. My mistake for attributing someone else’s comments to Javy. When I see him at the stadium next year, I’ll be sure to apologize.
“He’s a Yankee so I’ll be rooting for him to do well in 2010. But I can’t fake being happy about the trade. Just like I can’t hide the fact that I’m furious that they let Matsui get away. That one is going to stick with me for a long time to come.”
Laura,
Staying unhappy about what happened isn’t going to change anything. Your beef is with Cashman and he doesn’t post here so you might as well accept what transpired and hope for the best.
Laura
At times we have to move on. Cashman has to think about the future not the past. Damon and MAtsui are not getting younger and they are basically at the end of their careers. If they broke down and Cashman gave them pretty good contracts I bet a lot of Yankee fans would be calling for Cashman’s head.
Some people also forgot to mention that Damon and Matsui had a number of bad moments during the season where they were breaking down and their performance was not that good. It easy to look at a player when they get some key hits in a World Series.
The Red Sox do not like long term contracts, meaning any beyond a 4 year frame. Holliday would be an ideal fit for them, but they must not be impressed. You would have to assume they will keep trying to obtain Adrian Gonzales which again is an ideal fit, but the Lowell deal definitely set them back a bit. You also have to keep in mind Beckett and Victor Martinez are free agents after next year. They will need to spend on some big contracts after next year without addressing other issues. And this year they signed Lackey who’s deal is a little out of character for them and then Scutaro so they have added payroll plus Cameron now, three free agent signings.
Say what you want about Girardi’s bullpen management, but he is never afraid of putting in his best pitcher with the game on the line. Mo had a massive impact shortening games in the 2009 postseason.
Anybody think the sox will jump back in on Bay or Holliday now they the pitching advantage they did have over the Yanks has been negated?
========
Thats the first thing that crossed my mind after i heard about the trade Blake. I cant immagine them sitting put with Camaron replacing Bay this offseason. Either that or they will try to make an enticing package for Gonzolez. Cleaning out their farm doing so.
“I agree Mo is to blame but Torre is one of the main peple to blame. The fact that he set up the rotation in that series the way he did was stupid. He could have set it up for Mussina to go in a potential Game 7″
Again, you’re killing Torre on weather. Had Game 3 not been delayed by a day by rain, Mussina probably can pitch in Games 4 and 7. The delay left only 2 days between those games instead of 3. If you remember, Boston had to go with Derek Lowe, who was arguably one of the AL’s 5 worst starters that year and was bounced from their rotation when the playoffs started.
I’m confused. On one hand Cashman says it is not to his interest to discuss a dollar specific payroll limit. Yet, he says it is below that of last year, or others say under $200M. The Daily News says their is $4M left to spend for LF. Which is it, $4M left to spend or an unknown amount based upon MLB accounting methods of “lower than last year”?
Chip, Merry Christmas buddy. You’re one of the more easy going posters on here. Although your proposed trades are CRAZY!
Chip, Merry Christmas buddy. You’re one of the more easy going posters on here. Although your proposed trades are CRAZY!
“Can you explain why that is a bad stat?”
It’s not that it’s a “bad” stat. FIP and xFIP are in fact well designed stats in certain ways from a technical stand point.
The concepts underlying them however are the issue. And they are an issue in that there should be a debate about whether the ideas that the stat represents truly encompass “how good” a pitcher is in a satisfactory way.
The notion that FIP is “better” than ERA because there is more year to year correlation in the stat just astonishes me.
FIP tells you about a very narrow portion of a pitchers performance and that’s it – FIP argues that the only thing that a pitcher has under his control is strike outs, walks, and homeruns. Implicitly this aruges that a pitcher largely has no control over the quality of the contact he gives up is.
I think that’s a ridiculous idea. But fangraphs disagrees, so you know… (or worse yet hasn’t explicitly identified the assumptions)
Go back and compare Mariano’s ERA’s and FIP’s or even xFIP.
Mo’s greates skill arguably isn’t strike outs or even his control (which are both great as it is). I’d say his most unique skill is his capacity to prevent hitters from squaring up his pitches with any frequency.
FIP does not represent this skill or capture it. It implicitly decides that in fact Mariano does not possess this skill – rather it suggests Mariano is simply “getting lucky.”
To me, it is a wholly inadequate statistic to do things like calculate WAR.
“Lets hope Santa Cashman loses your list. ”
Jeez I hope so.
Chip’s list:
Rich Ankiel
Ryan Church
Mark DeRosa
Randy Winn
David DeJesus
Brad Hawpe
Who am I missing?
Chip you are a cool guy but I will never understand your love for average corner OF’s
Have a great holiday.
The more I hear about Torre, the less I like him. His treatment of Alex was shameful and designed to embarrass him; batting him EIGTH? Didn’t that paragon of virture, Jason Giambi, make comments about Alex as well?
Patrick, I hope you’re right. I’m not worried about his cutter as he’d use that in the pen; I’m talking about the curve…..and his development of the change.
Jerkface, everything I’m hearing from Vasquez I like. I feel badly for him that he didn’t feel wanted……but it’s clear he’s wanted now.
new thread
“Holliday would be an ideal fit for them, but they must not be impressed.”
I’m thinking they didn’t want to postion themselves to be used to improve his salary with the Yankees, like a certain 1B and his agent did about a year ago.
Good points CB. I remember back when Wang was healthy he was the bane of the sabr community’s existence. Every projection system hated him and all the fans expected him to regress in a big way. You are touching on one of the reasons why. Wang’s special talent was (and hopefully will be in the future) generating ground balls; especially weak ground balls.
I think the same can be said for Halladay – something you alluded to earlier. You can watch entire games where nobody can hit the ball on the sweetspot of the bat. He’s just amazing at generating poorly hit balls.
I see where you’re coming from now, thanks for explaining.
Betsy,
Hughes throws the curve plenty while he’s pitching out of the pen.
He never throws a change, only during side sessions.
They told Melky he was going to Disneyland.
my apologies for coming to the party late on the “trade of the decade” – but if liriano stayed healthy i would put the pierzynski to the giants for joe nathan, liriano and the HOF bound boof bonser (according to gammons – now that he is with the redsox)at least in the top 3..heck pierzynski for nathan alone should qualify..