Fifth time’s a charm
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 26, 2009 
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Javier Vazquez has been traded five times, a fairly stunning number considering he’s been a productive pitcher throughout his career. He seems to be the kind of player a lot of teams want, but that no team is unwilling to deal. Good but not great. Valuable but not priceless.
Here’s the company Melky Cabrera, Mike Dunn and Arodys Vizcaino are joining in the fraternity of players traded for Javier Vazquez.
December 16, 2003: Traded by the Montreal Expos to the New York Yankees for…
Randy Choate – Fairly young lefty reliever who went on to bounce from Triple-A to the big leagues. He’s had solid numbers at both levels.
Nick Johnson – Young first baseman stuck behind Jason Giambi. He’s been awfully good when healthy. You know where he’ll be next year.
Juan Rivera – Young outfielder on the rise. Within 11 months of this trade, he was traded again, this time to the Angels, with whom he’s had a nice big league career. Still a good, not-too-old big leaguer.
January 11, 2005: Traded by the New York Yankees with Brad Halsey, Dioner Navarro and cash to the Arizona Diamondbacks for…
Randy Johnson — Second in the Cy Young voting the year before, Johnson was supposed to do what Vazquez could not and get the Yankees back to the World Series. He never got out of the Division Series.
December 20, 2005: Traded by the Arizona Diamondbacks to the Chicago White Sox for (a few of these names should be familiar)…
Orlando Hernandez — Coming off a bad season, the aging Hernandez would ultimately be traded again just six months and nine starts later.
Luis Vizcaino — The journeyman reliever had pitched well for the White Sox, and he pitched well for the Diamondbacks. Then he was traded to the Yankees in the deal that sent Randy Johnson (see above) to Arizona. Apparently, baseball’s circle of life always comes back to Javier Vazquez.
Chris Young — The hot prospect in the deal, Young had hit for power as a Double-A center fielder in 2005. The White Sox could afford to lose him because they had Brian Anderson and Ryan Sweeney. Within two years, Young hit 32 home runs as a rookie center fielder in Arizona.
December 4, 2008: Traded by the Chicago White Sox with Boone Logan (same extra pitcher who came to New York) to the Atlanta Braves for…
Tyler Flowers — Good power and a terrific on-base percentage as a High-A catching prospect in 2008, he went all the way from Double-A to the big leagues in his first year with the White Sox. Very legit prospect.
Brent Lillibridge — Very good defensive shortstop, but his bat was always a question. Still is after he hit .158 with Chicago this season.
Santos Rodriguez – Baseball America called him the “wild card” in the trade because he had good stuff but no polish. The lefty could hit 91-93 with his sinker, but his control was bad. He’s still very low in the White Sox system, but had 50 strikeouts and 18 walks in 31 innings this season.
Jon Gilmore — Third baseman who was a supplemental first-round pick in 2007. Gilmore had been terrific in short-season ball with the Braves, but had struggled when sent to Low-A. The White Sox sent him to A-ball this season and he was OK, but not great.
Where does the Yankees’ package fit? It seems to be more or less in keeping with the past two Vazquez trades, but it’s impact will ultimately depend on Vizcaino’s development. To get Vazquez, the White Sox gave up Young and the Braves gave up Flowers, two prospects who were a year away from the big leagues. Vizcaino is the top prospect in the Yankees package, but he’s much, much farther away. The reward could be higher, but so is the risk.
And the Yankees could still get two draft picks out of the deal.
Nick in SF,
From yesterday, I live outside of Charlotte in a little crossroads town called Midland. If you are interested google Reed Gold Mine . I am in that area
Belated Happy Holidays to you Chad and the rest of the Lohud crew. Happy Holidays to all the fans who contribute to the blog and make for some great reading as well. Let’s hope that next holiday season we can still call the Yankees the world champs.
Hey just because its basketball season doesn’t mean us tar heels aren’t watching the car care bowl..
Hope urban is ok, they said it was for health reasons…
This list reminds me of Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. I wonder which player has played with the most number of players in their career. I guess it has to be a journeyman. Maybe a reliever or something.
Pat M, I think I need to remove the kick me sign from my back, lol. Thanks for sticking up for me! I don’t bother responding to posters who clearly misrepresent what I say and who insult me. The poster who shot those darts at me is simply not worthy of my time.
Bru, I’m still confused. You’re making it sound like I don’t want Phil and Joba as starters and that’s not true at all. Also, there’s no need to jump on GB’s back. This is a message board, where people jump in on conversations all the time. Anytime GB wants to pop in is ok with me…..
Thanks, tom, I’ll check it out. I’ve had family here in Charlotte since 1997…I always enjoy my visits to the Queen City, but I have little interest in the local teams. I am rooting for the Heels, today, however. Suddenly looking pretty dicey.
“Apparently, baseball’s circle of life always comes back to Javier Vazquez.”
Anyone up for a rousing game of “6 Degrees of Javier Vazquez”?
More thrilling than Avatar! How will it end?????
The good news is, they beat the spread.
For entertainment purposes only, of course.
Man i’m sick of this Mayweather/Pacquiao nonsense. Either they want to fight or they don’t.
Ugh, football is not our thing, oh well….
Looks like Urban Meyer will spend the rest of his many days printing money at ESPN.
Spurrier back to Gainesville?
i was hoping Galen Hall
Nick in SF……USC in the rain over Boston College
Spurrier most likely isn’t coming back, but I would love to see it.
IMO, college football is better with Spurrier at UF, even though I can’t stand him. I rooted for UF these years while Meyer was there, I always rooted against them when Spurrier was there. It was a lot more fun rooting against them.
Gators were totally irrelevant, though, when Zook was there. I don’t want to see a repeat of that.
true. Zook wouldn’t be bad either
am i the only one sad about melky’s departure? even assuming vasquez does a good job, he will need to be offered an extension, he might be a one year player for the yankees, is it worth it to trade away a good, young, clutch player like melky?
am i the only one sad about melky’s departure?
———————————————-
pretty much
I wish him well
to clarify: melky had alot of big hits with NYY. For that i am thankful
Melky’s a good guy but not an overly great player. I wish him well.
I’m glad for his departure because I am hoping that Brett Gardner will have more of an opportunity to develop. I think he’s got a higher ceiling than Melky.
Florida should hire Eric Mangini once he gets let go by Cleveland….
I know he’s nothing special, but I’m sad the Melk is gone. His clutch hits and childlike enthusiasm for the game were fun to watch.
I know I’ll be hoping Melk does well, except if he ever plays against us.
I could not say the same for scumbags like Bubba Trammell, Randy Johnson, or Kevin Brown.
Florida should hire Eric Mangini once he gets let go by Cleveland…
—————————————
Oops. Substitute Carl Pavano for Randy Johnson.
RJ actually attempted to pitch through injuries with us.
Reading Torre’s book… man, did we have some creeps on the team from 04-07 or what… no wonder we didn’t win….
crow: name names
Joe Torre, for one……
Most unappreciated Yankee of last five years. I vote for bruney
The biggest creep on the 04-07 teams was Torre.
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....start.html
One major-league scout, who spoke on condition of anonymity, says simply, “The Yankees let him walk the first time. That raises suspicion there.”
*********
Is this scout kidding? That raises suspicion but Cash’s comments about how they really like him and in essence never wanted to trade him don’t mean a hill of beans? Unnamed scouts are creeps.
Jim Kaat is certainly negative, but it’s nice to hear Flaherty praising Javy……and Swish as well; I forgot they were teammates.
“Man i’m sick of this Mayweather/Pacquiao nonsense. Either they want to fight or they don’t”
Agreed. Looks for all the world like Mayweather wants no part of it.
Just a LF option. Oakland has cornered the market on average offense, good defense OFs as in – signing Crisp, trading for Taylor and then Davis, Hairston, Sweeney, Cunningham etc, etc. Why sign a broken down old man?
Is it just a coincidence that clubhouse chemistry improved when the guys who talked with Verducci(Torre, Giambi and Mussina) for books and articles left?
Torre was terrible.
Never won any rings.
His players hated him especially Jeter.
He was not a buffer between George and his players.
Made enemies with the press.
Glad he is gone. What a loser.
Clubhouse chemistry also improved when Torre left. He encourage a clubhouse that was divided and he did it intentionally. He threw anyone that was his guy under the bus. He’s a complete phony in every respect.
For those inneed of a baseball fix, MLB is showing game #7 of the 1952 WS between the Yanks and Brooklyn. Red Barber announcing. The games has a total of HOFers in the game, 4 for each team.
^ Torre had his time. He deserves credit for what he did but he shouldn’t escape blame for what he did or didn’t do because of a good run.
Rose, is that supposed to be some kind of defense of Torre? Let’s see – he treated “his guys” one way and everyone else another way. He revealed personal moments of his ex-players, moments that should have remained personal and private. He embarrassed Alex by batting him 8th and basically treated him like dirt.
He won rings, so he gets a pass for terrible managerial moves after 2001?
The fact that he made friends with the press is not a point in his favor – in fact it explains his “Saint Joe” image.
During his tenure, the team consisted of more players than just Jeter, Mo, Andy and Jorge. Did you read what Vasquez had to say about how he was never made to feel comfortable? I will bet you anything that other players felt the same way.
The MLb network is awesome
“Is this scout kidding? That raises suspicion but Cash’s comments about how they really like him and in essence never wanted to trade him don’t mean a hill of beans? Unnamed scouts are creeps”
I’ve always had a hard time with this. Was Cash the GM or not? If he was in name only and his real job was primarily to detail George’s car and know what cigarettes he liked, then that’s fine. But if that’s the case he gets zero credit for anything that happened before 2006. Too many times, I hear “that was Steinbrenner’s idea, not Cashman’s” Probably true. However, to me that means Cash was along for the ride from 1995-2005 rather than responsible for what transpired.
By the way, I loved Joe – when he left, I was very upset. Also by the way, Cash trashed Torre’s book as garbage (when do you ever hear Brian speak that way) and detailed how the coaching staff basically lied to him (about Jeter and probably about other things). Good riddance – how dare they think they are bigger than a team? Joe formed a little cult and I’m sorry to say that Donnie Baseball may have been a part of that.
“Clubhouse chemistry also improved when Torre left. He encourage a clubhouse that was divided and he did it intentionally. He threw anyone that was his guy under the bus. He’s a complete phony in every respect”
Who were his guys?
Aside from Jeter, Posada, Mo, Bernie and Andy? For a while that included Todd Zeile even though he sucked. Tino when he came back. Basically anyone from the teams of the 90s or that we acquired that he’d managed in previous stops. Its funny how he never threw these guys under the bus, but had no problem questioning A-Rod in the media.
Its kinda sad that the only thing people seem to remember about Torre is the bad breakup….The end was ugly but he did some good things while he was with the Yankees, why can’t we just leave it at that?
Dave:
What made them “his guys”?
Torre getting the Yoko treatment?
Frank, I don’t think Mayweather wants any part of the fight either. I think that they should tell him if he doesn’t go through with the fight then he’ll have to fight BJ Penn.
Betsy – high on pie
Torre was not a perfect man or manager. Just trying to make a point that Torre gets no credit from some people. Some of the same people who bashed Posada ( terrible catcher,can’t catch certain pitchers).
Bashed Alex (choker, cheater).
Torre made some bad moves as a mgr. He and the Yankees have moved on. So should the Torre haters.
What made them his guys was his treatment of them as opposed to others. Running Bernie out in Center long after he couldn’t play the position anymore is but one example.
“Its kinda sad that the only thing people seem to remember about Torre is the bad breakup….The end was ugly but he did some good things while he was with the Yankees, why can’t we just leave it at that?”
Thank you, Blake.
“What made them his guys was his treatment of them as opposed to others”
No. That defines what, in your mind, makes them his guys (and I’m not saying you’re wrong). I’m asking how they became his guys? What made them unique? Why them and not those who were not “his guys”?
Ab:
“Torre getting the Yoko treatment?”
LMAO.
blake -
Because the book Torre wrote completely changes how I thought of him as a person and manager. The one thing you don’t do in baseball is air your dirty laundry from the clubhouse in the press or a book. Terrible, petty decision by him to sign-off on and contribute to that book. Especially after he called out David wells for basically doing the same thing. He’ll never be the same in my eyes because of that.
Blake:
LOL! If a fight were set up with Penn, Mayweather would request that all his blood be drained from his body and tested.
Listen, Torre won 4 titles, one of which the Yankees had no business winning (2000), went to 2 more WS, and the Yankees never missed the playoffs while he was here. He did some shady things there towards the end but he was unhappy because he couldn’t get along with management. He has moved on and the Yankees have moved on, time for the fans to move on too.. We have a great team and manager now, lets concentrate on that.
As far as him having “his guys”, wouldn’t you feel some loyalty to the guys that won you 4 titles?
Rose, that’s fine – I’ve moved on in the sense that, frankly, I never think of him anymore. It’s not like I think bitter thoughts of Joe whenever I hear his name. I’m all for talking about something positive……
“LOL! If a fight were set up with Penn, Mayweather would request that all his blood be drained from his body and tested.”
haha, yea if he’s afraid of Pacquiao then he would probably enter witness protection to get away from BJ.
Blake, one more thing on Torre. It’s fine that Torre loved the core guys, but treating the other players differently was a bad move on his part – it’s just not kosher.
On a more positive note, I did hear AJ’s intervew with Brandon Steiner (thank you, You Tube!) and he just gushed about Girardi (said he is just a great human being, etc…). I think all the players love Joe and it shows…..
Showing loyalty and throwing everyone else under the bus are two different things.
rodg12,
You don’t have to look at him the same, still doesn’t change what he did while he was with the Yankees. Its over, many good relationships end badly because they would never end any other way…
And to attack Cashman like he did, when Brian saved his job for at least the previous two years was unseemly.
Betsy, I agree that Torre did some pretty rotten things to certain players toward the end of his Yankee career. I think most of it was because he was just unhappy, its no excuse but people do strange things when they are upset.
Also, I have never really heard anyone say a bad thing about Girardi the person. By all accounts hes just a really good guy, seems like the Yankees have a team full of good guys now which I think is awesome…
Torre shot down a Ramiro Mendoza for Jim Edmonds trade that probably would have helped us win more titles.
“As far as him having “his guys”, wouldn’t you feel some loyalty to the guys that won you 4 titles?”
Yes. But don’t you think it was more than that? Let’s keep in mind that Torre had “no guys” when he scored this job in 1996. He came in cold. What he developed over time was relationships with several guys who were consummate professionals whose primary concern was winning. Unlike last year, those teams were not necessarily the far and away more talented than their competition, but their undying focus on winning was undeniable. I don’t know whether guys who went on to curry something less than Torre’s favor necessarily had that focus and maybe that bothered him. Wasn’t just him though. How many times has Jeter said “not this team” to the press in response to questions about the Yankees recent history of winning? Was Torre right to hang people out to dry? No. But he wasn’t alone. He probably had it too good, and ended up spoiled to a degree that having guys whose total focus was on something other than winning was a problem for him.
Blake, I suppose I’m a pollyanna, but I love how well this team gets along. I guess I’m not alone because I suspect the 2009 Yankees are a lot of fans’ favorite WS team.
“We have a great team and manager now, lets concentrate on that.”
Why are people still talking about Torre? He is gone. Our team just won the World Series. Who is going to play LF?
Joba and Hughes, who makes the starting rotation?
Will AJ continue to stay healthy?
How many more moves will Cashman make?
Get over Torre. Enough already.
Managers have a shelf life IMO. The shelf life is made shorter if they do not have sufficient control of the players that he must manage ( I think of Torre like Jimmy Johnson in Dallas) and I don’t hold any hard feelings for the way it ended. But I did lose some respect for Torre for what he put in his book. Can you imagine any player in LA trusting him at all after what he did to A-rod. I wouldn’t.
As for the Mayweather/Pacquiao fight. Just look at who is trying to set all the hurdles, that is the man who is scared.
My humble opinions, hope everyone is having a great holiday.
Frank, I think Torre just flat out didn’t like some of the players towards the end. As you said, he got used to managing players that were totally committed to winning and that was it. He didn’t know how to relate to some of the different and younger players he was having to deal with. You combine that with being upset with management and you get what happened.
The four titles that Stick and Buck set up went to his head.
Ramiro Mendoza for Jim Edmonds? Phil, when was this? It must have been that year that Bernie wasn’t offered a contract, but rather a chance to win a job at ST? I forget what year that was…..
“Torre shot down a Ramiro Mendoza for Jim Edmonds trade that probably would have helped us win more titles.”
Forgot about Torre’s tenure as GM
Buster said in his blog today that both the Yankees and Red Sox were working on hard budgets this offseason but that would change at the trading deadline in July. Kinda curious I thought, then again its Buster?
Betsy, I think it was in `99 or `98.
You just have to wonder what the comments here will be when Joe Torre enters The Hall Of Fame wearing a NY Yankee cap and then especially after the Yankees retire his # 6…..Yankee fans, special breeds that we are….
btw- anyone still think that aceves is going to be mendoza redux? love aceves but mendoza was special in that role-
the trade wasnt straight up mendoza it included prospects as well (i forget which ones)
we had a thing for edmonds forever-
Pat M- i agree- I’m mad at joe but still love him- much different circumstances- again i caveat MUCH-
but its similar to giants fans who wanted plaxico to go to jail for life- once you bring me an unforgetable moment and deliver a championship you have a special place with me- torre’s brilliant ’96- (let alone his 98-2000) was enough to get a lifetime pass with me- i mean come on he didn’t fax in his resignation or anything, haha
“You just have to wonder what the comments here will be when Joe Torre enters The Hall Of Fame wearing a NY Yankee cap and then especially after the Yankees retire his # 6″
His accomplishments should be celebrated when those things happen.
Torre didn’t build his reputation on game management skills. He built it on his clubhouse management skills. When those skills were no longer effective, it was time for a change. Both sides handled the break-up poorly but it was the right move for it to happen.
The book and comments following his resignation was an overestimation on Torre’s part for just how Teflon he thought he had become. When he was managing the Yanks, being critical of players could be seen as motivating. When doing it from outside the organization, it came across as vindictive and petty.
Pat M, when Joe enters the HOF, I’ll probably be silent. The Yankees will not retire his #……..
Roberto, no, I don’t think so. Aceves did not pitch overly well in the 2nd half and I doubt he can hold up pitching in relief. Also, the leaugue may have caught up with him.
NYYanks fan, well-said.
“btw- anyone still think that aceves is going to be mendoza redux? love aceves but mendoza was special in that role-”
It depends on whether or not the league adjusts to him (even though he can certainly adjust back). The thing that made Aceves so valuable last year was that he could throw 3 innings in just 30 pitches, which allowed him to eat up innings without getting too overworked. He did have a dropoff in the second half, but his overall numbers were great.
still hoping damon finds his way back… somehow
Ace was used and abused by girardi last year in the first half. Expect a fresh and effective ace come spring.
Eric, he was used a lot, I’ll give you that……
Aceves is a starter. Plain and simple.
Aceves dropped off after pitching too many innings one game when he wasn’t stretched out for it.
Just a thought:
So far we have lost Melky,Coke, Matsui,Molina, Hinske, Hairston and possibly Damon.
We have picked up Granderson,Vazquez and Johnson.
Am I missing anybody?
Doesn’t equate, does it?
kevin: am i the only one sad about melky’s departure?
———————————
I’ll miss Melky, He’s terrific to root for.
But I think it’s a good trade, and I hope Gardner gets his shot to be “the kid to root for” in the lineup. It’s fun to root for an up-and-comer, in addition to all the all stars.
mick, the Yankees also get the Great Boone Logan!
Betsy, Then Torre would be the first Yankee HOF not to have his Yankee # retired ????
GreenBeret7 December 26th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
For those inneed of a baseball fix, MLB is showing game #7 of the 1952 WS between the Yanks and Brooklyn. Red Barber announcing. The games has a total of HOFers in the game, 4 for each team.
========================================================
I’m in another room and all I hear is the melifulous (sp?)voice of the great Mel Allen. “Going, going,gone.”
Good night.
mick,
Add inhouse reliever or Boone for Coke. Cervelli for Molina. Hoffman (possibly) for Hinske. Pena (or upgrade) for Hairston. Gardner (or upgrade for Damon.
I think they’ll look for a utility guy with a bat.
Torre never played an inning in his life for the Yankees. So not retiring his number wouldn’t be a grievous crime. But everytime YES pans the numbers, they mention Joe’s number being retired…
Stengel’s number is retired. I don’t think Huggins wore one, and I don’t think Joe McCarthy’s number is retired. And if McCarthy’s # isn’t retired, Torre’s surely should not be retired.
Pat M
December 26th, 2009 at 11:36 pm
Betsy, Then Torre would be the first Yankee HOF not to have his Yankee # retired ????
—————————–
The Yankees have many more HOF members than retired numbers. Lefty Grove and Tony Lazzeri come to mind as Yankee HOFers without retired numbers. I’m sure there are many more.
“Just a thought:
So far we have lost Melky,Coke, Matsui,Molina, Hinske, Hairston and possibly Damon.
We have picked up Granderson,Vazquez and Johnson.
Am I missing anybody?
Doesn’t equate, does it?”
not in quantity but i think the quality is equal
Ooos! I mesnt to say Lefty Gomez. Not Lefty Grove (he was never a Yankee)
“Stengel’s number is retired. I don’t think Huggins wore one, and I don’t think Joe McCarthy’s number is retired. And if McCarthy’s # isn’t retired, Torre’s surely should not be retired.”
It’s funny how some Yankee fans have turned against Torre.
I turned against him in 2001. Don’t hate him or anything but we should have won more between then and now, and he’s one of the reasons why we didn’t.
“The four titles that Stick and Buck set up went to his head.”
A lot of those players on the last 3 championship teams never played for Buck. Also, Jeter and Posada barely played for Buck.
“I turned against him in 2001. Don’t hate him or anything but we should have won more between then and now, and he’s one of the reasons why we didn’t.”
Did you turn against Buck in 1995?
No, but I was mad at Buck after we lost that year.
Joe’s managing in the ’03 Series and the ’04 disgrace killed us. He overstayed his welcome by a few years and clearly started to believe the “St. Joe” hype at the end. The book is an embarassment.
That said, the man restored a once proud franchise to its rightful place at the pinnacle of professional sports. Did he do it alone? Of course not. But it could not have been done without him.
As manager, he deserves blame for the post-dynasty disappointments. But he gets the credit for 4 championships in 5 years. Nothing he’s said or done since then changes that. Nothing ever will.
The acrimony will blow over eventually and if the younger Steinbrenners have any class, Joe will be welcomed back with open arms someday.
“No, but I was mad at Buck after we lost that year.”
Why were so kind to him and not to Torre, when he made some crucial mistakes too?
Phil the Thrill
Who did you turn on? Torre? I agree we should have won more between our last championships, and did not because of Torre. I am appreciative for what he did with us during the beginning. I just thought he got too complacent over the years and was loyal only to a certain group of guys (Jeter), to the detriment of others on the team (ARod).
Girardi may not be the best manager, but he brought the team together as one. It sure looked this year as if Alex and Jeter hate each other
“Joe’s managing in the ‘03 Series and the ‘04 disgrace killed us. He overstayed his welcome by a few years and clearly started to believe the “St. Joe” hype at the end. The book is an embarassment.”
I agree with that statement and he should have recognized that he stayed too long, instead of trying to bury Cashman under the bus with his book.
I think Buck’s a better man, but beyond that, how was I being kind to him. I was mad at him and he got fired. But he and Stick did do a lot to bring the team back from where it had been languishing. I think Torre made mistakes from the 2001 WS on, I thought he was a terrible game manager, always burned out the pen, and always threw people under the bus instead of taking responsibility for his endless screw ups.
When the Boss wanted to fire Buck’s pitching coach, Buck quite on principle. When the Boss wanted to fire Zimmer, Torre stayed around, collecting his checks and mismanaging till he got that job with the Dodgers.
“Who did you turn on? Torre? I agree we should have won more between our last championships, and did not because of Torre. I am appreciative for what he did with us during the beginning. I just thought he got too complacent over the years and was loyal only to a certain group of guys (Jeter), to the detriment of others on the team (ARod).”
How did Torre’s loyalty to Jeter became a detriment to the team? When did Jeter become the source of the problems Arod had?
“I think Buck’s a better man, but beyond that, how was I being kind to him.”
I’m not close enough to either man to judge what type of man they are so I won’t, but Buck has his own detractors too about some of his managerial moves in his career.
Did I say that Jeter became the source of Arod’s problems?
No.
I said Torre’s loyalty to a collection of guys like Jeter was a detriment to others on the team as Arod, whom he was not loyal to.
As David Wells mentioned, he did not give 2 ***** about Wells in the 2003 World Series.
He put Alex in the 8th spot in a playoff game, not because he thought it would help Alex or the team, but as a slap in the face.
“I said Torre’s loyalty to a collection of guys like Jeter was a detriment to others on the team as Arod, whom he was not loyal to.”
Again, how was Torre’s loyaty to Jeter a detriment to others on the team like Arod?
He left the team on the field during an insect attack. He didn’t encourage them to bunt against Schilling… He left the infield pulled in in 2001. He left Weaver in when he had Mo in 2003…
At http://www.chicagocubsonline.com
Damon may be on the Cubs radar. Check under the rumor tab.
Well said, randyhater.
Some good folks on here seem to succumb to a totalitarian impulse when it comes to Torre, airbrushing out the positives and highlighting the negatives.
“As David Wells mentioned, he did not give 2 ***** about Wells in the 2003 World Series.”
Neither did I!
“He put Alex in the 8th spot in a playoff game, not because he thought it would help Alex or the team, but as a slap in the face.”
I can’t defend Torre on that move as the Yankees lost that series for many reasons beyond Arod.
“He left the team on the field during an insect attack. He didn’t encourage them to bunt against Schilling… He left the infield pulled in in 2001. He left Weaver in when he had Mo in 2003…”
Agreed. He did not use Mo, and there was never another important spot for Mo to be used again. The most egregious of his offenses is leaving the guys on the field with the midges. It showed a clear lack of desire to win.
Batting ARod 8th was pretty egregious.
Torre had to be the reason behind the players NOT melding together. Sheffield was so jealous of Jeter’s status he was quite vocal. Joe played favorites.
crawdaddy
Because when a manager is loyal to one person and not loyal to another, it ends up with one person feeling slighted.
I am not playing faux-psychiatrist, but we all know the problems that Alex had. He wanted to please everyone, say the right things, be loved by everyone.
So when his manager treats him like a piece of garbage, then I can see how his psyche and play on the field might be affected.
“He left the team on the field during an insect attack. He didn’t encourage them to bunt against Schilling… He left the infield pulled in in 2001. He left Weaver in when he had Mo in 2003…”
Like I stated, he stayed too long and probably should have left after the 2003 WS, but was given a new contract prior to that season. Anyhow, he did leave, but I can’t go along with certain Yankee fans continuing to attack the man and what he accomplished with this franchise.
All managers play favorites and if you don’t think so then you’re forgetting their human.
I can honestly understand some of the frustration with Torre.
At the same time, in fairness to him he acknowledges in the book that the biggest mistake he made in his Yankee career was in reference to leaving his players on the field with all the midges.
I personally don’t think it was a lack of desire to win, but more a bad judgment call.
I never brought him up.
Sheffield’s jealous of his own shadow.
Managing the media was Torre’s greatest strength. I did love the iron door to the clubhouse. Nothing got in and nothing got out. Unless Torre wanted it to. snicker…lol…
“I never brought him up.”
Yeah, but you sure were vocal afterwards.:)
My next comment, I do not believe, but I do think is possible.
It is possible that Joe’s loyalty to Jeter gave Jeter a sense of contentment with his own peformance.
If you look at a timeline, Joe Girardi is hired, Jeter begins working with trainer Jason Riley in early 2008 to improve his range of motion and lateral quickness to try and better his defense, and in 2009, has one of his best if not his best defensive year.
ray,
The midges game was horrible. Wasted a gem by Pettitte. And put us behind the 8-ball.
I can understand if it was someone like Pettitte or whomever. But Joba was a rookie.
eric 11:09 pm I agree!
Ace was abused, he wasn’t the same lights out pitcher after Joe let him start a game, the one time. I hope Joe has learned from that. I also wish Joe gets over his love of Mitre.
Hey there m. What about those rowdy Laker fans?
I couldn’t resist.
Jeter worked hard because he was tired of reading that he was finished at shortstop. He wanted to prove everyone wrong and shut up the Jeter to LF talk.
If anyone has read the book, it is more Verducci than Torre. But Torre had to sign off on the finality of the book. And parts of the book talk about how great the Red Sox organization and management are (probably written by Red Sox smoochie Verducci). How does Torre allow that in his book?
How does Torre also allow the personal struggles of Damon in his book?
Torre had a tremendous career with the Yankees. I apperciate the man greatly and I have great respect for what he did while he was manager. He was the manager that saw a team win four World Series from 1996-2000.
However, Torre wasn’t the best of managers. His managing of the bull pen, for example, was one of his weaker points; it was borderline frustrating, at least to me. Also, I can’t say that Torre lost a desire to win World Championships…after all, how can anyone lose a desire to continue winning, especially winning with an organization that values it above all else. But Torre lost some fire, in my opinion.
During Yankee broadcasts, whenever they show the Yankee dug out, Girardi is usually standing with his arms crossed and his eyes locked on the game. When Torre was managing, he would sit on the dugout bench with this look of…it was just a blank stare. i’m not saying Torre wasn’t locked into the game but still…he could have shown a little bit more fire.
Anyhow, whether we like it or not, Torre’s going to the HOF and the main reason for that is his time with the Yankees. I think we could’ve won more WS too, but there was plenty of blame to pass around in that regard from the ownership to the manager and ultimately to the players. I’m hoping the Yankees winning another tile in 2009 will allow more of us to move on from those disappointments and focus on the great things we’ve enjoyed over the last 14 seasons or so.
Anyway, I’m off my soapbox and wish everyone a good night!
Again, I do not believe it, but do think it’s possible.
And it just so happened he decided to work harder to be a better shortstop because of reading how he was done, just months after Torre’s departure and Girardi’s arrival.
Oh, what an embarrasment. The officiating isn’t why they lost, but the refs were putrid. Can’t accuse LA fans of lacking passion.
“My next comment, I do not believe, but I do think is possible.
It is possible that Joe’s loyalty to Jeter gave Jeter a sense of contentment with his own peformance.
If you look at a timeline, Joe Girardi is hired, Jeter begins working with trainer Jason Riley in early 2008 to improve his range of motion and lateral quickness to try and better his defense, and in 2009, has one of his best if not his best defensive year.”
That’s a giant reach by you. The failures of the Yankees from 2001 to 2008, had little to do with Jeter.
“That’s a giant reach by you. The failures of the Yankees from 2001 to 2008, had little to do with Jeter.”
I did not say that it did. How did you get that by my statement?
craw,
I answered your questions. I was comfortable leaving it after my retired numbers comment. I don’t think his number should be retired if McCarthy’s is not.
Cameron 12:14 am
If Damon goes to the Cubs, how far he’s fallen. Boras will look stupid, and ineffective too!
Where would they play Soriano?
It’s only natural that a coach or manager shows favoritism to players who win championships over others… especially as the drought increases and we move further away from a championship and continue to fall short. You feel a special bond with the players who brought you to the promise land and are not as connected to the ones who are responsible for the present day failures.
And aside from A-Rod, it is not like Torre didn’t get along with great players. He had low tolerance for the guys who didn’t have the stomach to play here and the steroid users and guys who didn’t know hot to win… like Womack, Lofton, Sheffield, Giambi, Vasquez, Brown, Randy, Pavano, Damon (in his 2 yrs here), Abreu, Farnsworth, Karsay, Gordon, etc. As Yankee fans… don’t you cringe when you see that list? Because it reminds you of an unpleasant time. You don’t feel warm and fuzzy with those guys like you do the dynasty guys.
I don’t think his number should be retired if McCarthy’s is not
================================================================
Seems like an argument for retiring McCarthy’s number rather than denying Torre. Why don’t you ask how they cannot retire Torre’s number if they retired Billy Martin’s number(and please, don’t tell me about his playing career which, with the exception of one catch in the World Series, was totally unremarkable.}
CR9,
He used Verducci as his cop out. That was his book… he just had someone else write it for him. Don’t buy into it. That is what he wants you to think… that Verducci somehow incorporated his own thoughts into the book and it didn’t represent what Torre wanted. It was Torre’s book, he wanted everything to get out, that got out.
The number of rings or postseason appearances should not be the criteria for having a number retired.
So every player who won 4 rings (and Posada/Andy both have 5 too), should have their number retired?
Give #6 to Hoffmann or Boone Logan in Spring Training and end this nonsense.
I’m not jumping on sides here but Dan they were all responsible for the failures during the drought. It wasn’t just the ones who didn’t have rings. Rings or no rings, they all had bad times in the postseason.
“Jeter worked hard because he was tired of reading that he was finished at shortstop. He wanted to prove everyone wrong and shut up the Jeter to LF talk.”
So he isn’t motivated by a sense of professionalism or a desire to win but rather by vanity and spite?
Link?
Billy also had another WS where he hit about .500 and won it single handedly. But retiring his number probably had more to do with unresolved issues between he and the Boss. Though he was also a WS series hero and WS winning manager for the team.
So will the media “ball wash” Girardi this year after winning like they did to Francona after 04? Or will they say that a monkey could win with that payroll?
And BTW, Cashman looks bad here too. He should have gone to Jeter directly and told him what needed to be said. Joe is his father figure, he should have known that Torre wouldn’t do that to Jeter. Cashman was the one who wanted Jeter to change something, and he should have gone to him directly rather than hiding behind Torre. If something needs to be said, you say it. Don’t ask someone else to say it for you.
lol. That was Torre’s book, not Verducci. Torre owned up to it. Sort of. Said that blah, blah, blah, but my name’s on the cover.
Dan
Can you explain what Damon and Abreu did that Torre would dislike them.
Not really a fan of Abreu, but a consummate professional he was.
A fan, not the biggest (Erica), of Damon, but again, a consummate professional he was.
I cringe when I see many of those names, but it is not our job to keep a team together, manage the players off and on the field. It was Torre’s job.
I never cringed at Alex Rodriguez. I never blamed Alex Rodriguez for our failures. Even if Alex did not win this year, Alex is and always has been a winner. Him making a mistake from 2001-2003 does not take that away from him. Him owning up to his mistakes unlike David Ortiz makes him all the more a winner.
Torre could not put aside his dislike or distain for Alex, and it was his job to do so.
Sigh.
Happy holidays!
I don’t believe in retiring numbers. I think it actually honors a player more by continuing to use his number, but reserving for the next player with great potential.
We also had a bunch of sissies on the team, as evident by Jeter/Soriano going to the hospital, Zimmer being thrown to the ground, and 0 retaliation.
But St. Joe thought that retaliating was “not the right way to play the game”. So we were used as punching bags. We were just a soft team. A soft team with a bad pitching staff is not a good combo.
“So with Yankees officials and coaches privately hoping their shortstop could restore his diminishing range and table the ultradelicate issue of a possible move to the outfield, Jeter hired a new fitness trainer before last season for the purpose of fielding more balls to his left.”
http://www.northjersey.com/spo.....038;page=1
I know it was Torre’s book, but some of the stuff is Verducci.
How could Torre write in a book about how great the Red Sox management, organization and team was during the 2000s and not about the team he managed?
Verducci is another in the long line of Red Sox schills.
“So will the media “ball wash” Girardi this year after winning like they did to Francona after 04? Or will they say that a monkey could win with that payroll?”
Nope. It was all the payroll for Girardi. Girardi will never be Tito. Tito only operated with the 1st and 2nd highest World Series winning payrolls prior to November 4, 2009.
“Joe is his father figure, he should have known that Torre wouldn’t do that to Jeter.”
If you can’t tell people what they need to hear (if you think Jeter needed to hear it or not is another discussion) you are not a leader.
And the first time Cashman would have bypassed Torre he would have been ripped. No, think you let the coaches handle that. And if they felt it was something Cash should tell Jeter himself then say that, don’t lie and say you did. Which is what Cash alleges they did.
Beyond hiring a fitness trainer, Jeter was also asked to pay more attention to scouting reports to guide his positioning, which he was more than willing to do.
CR9,
They came into camp out of shape in 07. Cashman was miffed at them and went public with it. That was the ST that Damon was contemplating retirement. He proceeded to have the worst year of his pinstriped tenure in 07, hit .273 and was even benched for a couple days before Damon started barking and Torre put him back in the lineup.
And my post said “aside from A-Rod”, I agreed that there was no basis for him to be on Torre’s hit list. The other guys, you could rationalize, however, as twisted as it may be to do.
I think baseball manager are largely fungible.
Torre’s a professional who respects other professionals.
I did not read the book, but if anyone has a problem with anything in it, it’s on Torre. If he didn’t have final edit rights, then something was wrong.
It was a Yankee retrospective through Torre’s eyes.
edit; managers.
I love how Giambi wasn’t one of “Torre’s guys”, yet Torre used him to extract info from (remember that Anti A-Rod article in 06 where he revealed private conversations with Giambi?)
lol Poor Giambino… he got used.
I find it funny that when Buster Olney, a respected baseball writer, says news or rumors about the Yankees, people on here immediately dismiss it, saying he has no credibility. Yet when some clown posts that his “sources” told him Cashman made an offer to Matt Holliday, you believe that.
Can people give Kelleher his dues for backing Jeter up as in positioning, working on his angles and so forth. I don’t know why Bowa wouldn’t do it, he worked with Cano, why not with Jeter.
So what did Mussina do to become one of Joe’s guys? Did I miss the ring(s) he won? Or does Torre excuse him from the ring criteria because he was just so darn unlucky?
Sorry, Dan. Did not have that information about Abreu and Damon, and did not see “aside from A-Rod” the first time.
The thing about Damon, I think the book mentions or I have heard somewhere else that Damon suffers from depression and/or other similar illnesses.
Torre, as his manager, should have understood that and helped him as best he could.
Kelleher doesn’t look like a baseball coach. He looks like a fun guy, and he’s always smiling.
” Buster Olney, a respected baseball writer,”
Never heard that before, and never will again!
CR,
You may be right, but it was obviously done with Torre’s approval (re: the praising of the Red Sox).
Don’t think Torre minded taking a couple of parting shots in his book to tweak us… what better way than praising our hated rival?
Kelleher is a tough guy coach. He might be smiling, but he will drive them.
Torre is like the rooster that took credit for the sunrise.
Boston Olney is NOT credible
Neither is Boston Gammons Rnsenthal Stark Callis Law Crasnick Olney
Am I missing anyone?
That link says a lot about Jeter’s professionalism and work ethic (“I’ve never come across anyone like Derek… His work ethic is unbelievable.”) but nothing about Jeter being motivated by being annoyed by criticism.
Semantics?
Al
You stole my “Boston Gammons Rnsenthal Stark Callis Law Crasnick Olney”
Fine by me!
People on this board like SJ44 and CB provide more insight into baseball, and the Yankees than Olney could ever dream of providing.
Olney can keep striving for mediocrity. He may one day reach that goal.
Guitar
Agreed.
So, if over the next 3-4 years… the NY Giants bring in guys like Anquan Boldin, Julius Peppers, Karlos Dansby, DeMarco Ryans, Shawne Merriman, and Chris Johnson, and we continue to fall short in the playoffs…. you don’t think Tom Coughlin will show favoritism to Eli, Tuck, Snee, Steve Smith, etc. ans the guys on the team who are our last link to glory?
This happens all the time. Coaches are tied with the players they won titles with.
Look at how Bellichick disciplines guys like Moss and Adilius Thomas. Think he would have done that to Brady, Rodney Harrison, Bruschi, etc.?
Players who win titles should and will get preferential treatment.
CR,
lol, yes I did. I loved it, very creative. Just wanted to make sure I didn’t miss anyone.
“People on this board like SJ44 and CB provide more insight into baseball, and the Yankees than Olney could ever dream of providing.”
Maybe, but so does a five year old child.
Olney breaks stories because he has sources. Therein lies his entire value.
“Look at how Bellichick disciplines guys like Moss and Adilius Thomas. Think he would have done that to Brady, Rodney Harrison, Bruschi, etc.?”
Belicheat also thought it was a good idea to trade Richard Seymore for a draft pick, and now his defense gets shredded by a good offense. He believed his own press clippings that his “genius” was what makes the team go, rather then the players themselves and anyone off the street can become a pro-bowler under him.
His arrogance is catching up to him.
Olney breaks stories because he has sources. Therein lies his entire value.
===============================================================
Good point; don’t confuse analytical ability with reporting news.
Well, I stand corrected.
Thanks Al. You mentioned most of them! Lupica, Bob Ryan, Buccigross, Bayless, Simmons are a few other notables.
It was a good idea to trade Seymour. Belichick is smart enough to know that sometimes it’s better to take a step back in order to take two steps forward.
Olney was a beat writer here for what, 7 years? During our glory days and he wrote a book about our dynasty as well.
I imagine his Yankee sources are as good as anyones.
And it seems, from that article, that Jeter’s biggest motivation is to extend his career. And specifically his SS career.
I read an article that said Jeter privately was irked by the criticisms.
That link I provided was the first one that popped up with “Jeter trainer motivation”.
If you really want the link, I’ll look further.
I still wouldn’t count the Pats out of any playoff game. Peyton “one and done” Manning does not inspire confidence in me. Chargers are legit though… but with Brady, they always are going to have a very good shot to beat anyone.
Olney’s Yankee source might have been Torre. In which case it’s not a very good source anymore.
Nat
He was a beat writer during the time in which Cone and Wells threw perfect games.
However, he managed to denegrate those perfect games earlier this year on Sportscenter by saying they were against a young team who had never seen Cone’s slider and a minor league team.
He wrote a book on the end of the Yankee dynasty, and with glee I might add. It really could be argued that the Yankee dynasty never ended, but Boston Olney couldn’t end our dynasty quick enough!
Speaking of the Pats, Shrek as the Prince must’ve been modeled after Teddy Bruschi.
“I read an article that said Jeter privately was irked by the criticisms.”
I would question why he didn’t become irked, and as a result motivated, by the criticism earlier, because his defense was awful for several seasons before he decided to make some changes.
m: in fact you may be correct, partially or more; vanity and its attending vices can motivate even those who already possess unusually strong work ethics (I guess).
But the linked evidence didn’t support the charge.
Anyway, I’m probably motivated by sleep-deprivation crankiness, so I should rectify that.
Continued happy holidays!!!
Rich in NJ
December 27th, 2009 at 1:13 am
Torre is like the rooster that took credit for the sunrise.
——————————————–
That’s about a 7 on the guffaw scale. A evil snicker doesn’t come close.
Boston Olney… LOL. Nice.
Anyway, I remember that SportsCenter segment. He was talking about how special Lester’s no hitter was (or was it Bucholz’s?) because it was against a formidable team like the Royals who had some offensive firepower, not a team that was severely over matched and devoid of offensive talent like the Expos and Twins were when he covered both no-hitters for the Yankees.
ZMAN
He did speak of how great Lester and Buchholz no hitters were special during that segment, but the point of the segment was based on the Sanchez guy from the Giants pitching his no hitter.
Boston Olney had his Last Night of the Yankee dynasty book written prior to Game 5 of the 2000 ALDS against Oakland (first time NYY facing elimination), but had to hold off until 2001.
He sent it in for publication after we were down 2-0 to Oakland in 2001
Torre’s interview with Larry King was such a joke
m
**Tedy** Bruschi
Is that like Jhonny Gomes? @$$ backwards?
CR9 – he seriously said that after Sanchez’s no hitter?
Oh, because it is so hard to pitch a no hitter against the SD Padres, in AT&T Park?
Their lineup that night was
Everth Cabrera
Tony Gwynn Jr.
Kevin Kouzmanoff
Adrian Gonzalez
Chase Headly
Kyle Banks
Eliezer Alfanso
Luis Rodriguez
Josh Banks
With pinch hitting appearances from feared mashers such as Edgar Gonzalez and Craig Stansberry.
I don’t remember much of the Twins/Expos lineups from back then, but those had to have been atleast equal, right? And there was no pitcher batting either.
You can respect Brady and Bellicheat because they are prolific winners and always have dignity, Brady especially. Those guys are just great at what they do. I hate the Pats, but you can atleast respect them unlike an organization like the Cowboys.
Al,
I can confirm. Sadly, Olney said that.
I still like Olney, though.
Olney, Timmy K, K. Law are tolerable. Timmy K’s the best with his infectious enthusiasm for good baseball. Well, maybe not infectius. It doesn’t rub off on his co-workers much.
jhonny peralta!!
Tedy was so sure he was going to win SB XLII, that he bet one of the ‘D’s in his name on it.
Al – Yes, he discredited our perfect games and praised Lester, Buchholz, and Sanchez on their no hitters.
Or Andruw Jones?
I heard that unusual names may lead to antisocial behavior or something like that.
Something about a study of names on the prison rolls. More “unusual” names and spellings than normal names like “Chad” and “Sam”.
All my kids have un-common names. Fingers crossed!
I actually thought Steve Phillips was pretty knowledgeable as well. He just couldn’t keep his fly zipped, though.
Wonder who is going to replace him on Sunday Night Baseball… perhaps John Kruk?
Paul Molitor, Vlad Guerrero, Orlando Cabrera?, Jose Vidro, RonDL White.
m, correlation
Tala08,
Sorry? If you’re asking for a link, I don’t have one.
Daughter’s AP psych class…
“Paul Molitor, Vlad Guerrero, Orlando Cabrera?, Jose Vidro, RonDL White.”
Doesn’t matter.
They are not better than Everth Cabrera, Luis Rodriguez, Kyle Banks, Josh Hanks, and Edwar Alfanso and the other studs that Al posted from the Pads lineup that night.
Nor are they better than guys like Dave DeJesus, Alex Gordon, Tony Pena Jr, Esteban German, Mark Gruzdelanik, Miguel Olivo, Alberto Callaspo (guys during Lester’s no hitter).
Nope just questioning the study. It may be nothing more than correlation. And it may not be that considering all studies tend to have some bias.
How do you know if a person with an uncommon name is a criminal? Checking birth records or are you checking criminal records for uncommon names? If its the latter then its biased because the only uncommon names you’re finding are the ones who ARE criminals.
That means we dont know how many people with uncommon names aren’t criminals because they aren’t on the criminal rolls.
It doesn’t matter which lineups were better. He didn’t need to demean the feat. Especially when Cone & Wells accomplished more in one game than Olney did his entire life.
I mean, really? Maybe he was just ack-acking for the sake of filling airtime. That’s what bothers me the most, is these guys saying something just for the sake of saying something. Kruk’s the worst culprit.
“I heard that unusual names may lead to antisocial behavior or something like that.”
Or becoming POTUS…
Oh, okay.
Causation/correlation kind of thing.
Probably more a trend than anything.
But I think the psychology behind it was that kids with unusual names are often targets of teasing when growing up. Thus leading to other issues.
lol, if you’re talking about the current one, high school was not a fun time in his life.
He was called “Barry”. In a state with very few African-Americans, he stood out even more in a elitist school.
He turned out alright, though.
Kicking back on the beaches of Lanikai.
Rather, he went by “Barry”.
Honestly, I don’t even buy that unless the kid is named Gonorrhea or something.
Okay. Let’s just say a kid was named Rhea. And kids mercilessly teased her by calling her “Diahrhea (sp) or Gonorrhea”. Doesn’t want to go to school. Drops out. Runaway. Hooking. Jail. And on and on.
Of course it’s far-fetched, and the original point I brought up could be more wrong than right. But there is a school of thought about it. And I could why that’s so.
He may have gone by Barry to fit in (makes sense) but there is also a certain amount of laziness when it comes to correctly pronouncing “ethnic” names.
Have a German friend who goes by Heiti, its not even close to her real name but she was tired of people butchering her name, which isn’t even difficult.
I hope you don’t think I’m giving you a hard time M. Its just the studies. I always like to poke holes at them and see where bias can come in. If we look at a list of US serial killers I bet 99% (if not 100%) had common names.
Tala,
I live in the state. You name it, we’ve got it. Try this one on for size. Fataiagogo Fonoti (real name lol).
For the “They didn’t retire McCarthy’s number so they shouldn’t retire Torre’s” whiners…there’s a reason that McCarthy’s number isn’t retired….he didn’t wear a number.
Okay, when I’m talking about presidents and hookers that means I’ve run out of topics.
Passing the mic to GB7…
For the “They didn’t retire McCarthy’s number so they shouldn’t retire Torre’s” whiners…there’s a reason that McCarthy’s number isn’t retired….he didn’t wear a number.
==============================================================
That won’t stop those who dislike Torre from finding another reason that his uniform number shouldn’t be retired. In terms of length of service, pennants & championships won, Torre belongs in the same category as Huggins, McCarthy & Stengel; no one else is close.
m
December 27th, 2009 at 2:28 am
Tala,
I live in the state. You name it, we’ve got it. Try this one on for size. Fataiagogo Fonoti (real name lol).
————————————————————
And, he went by the name of “Fats Fono”?
I don’t care whether Torre’s number is retired or not, but, given his record and precident, it probably should be. I have nothing against Torre, but, some of his dealings with certain players were tacky and uncalled for, to say the least.
I don’t care whether Torre’s number is retired or not, but, given his record and precident, it probably should be. I have nothing against Torre, but, some of his dealings with certain players were tacky and uncalled for, to say the least.
======================================
as usual, well said
Jeter hired a trainer because of what other people said about him?
Imagine my shock to only now find out A-Rod wasn’t the only player who cared what people said about him.
On the Torre issue –
To me it speaks in favor of the idea that coaches/managers can overstay their tenure on a team. Everyone loved Torre through about 2003 or 2004, but he probably should have been fired after the 2004 collapse. His approach was tired and he was losing effectiveness.
I had hoped that Girardi would indeed be the next manager and was scared by all of the talk of other possibilities (like Mattingly), and I was worried that he would be fired after his first season missing the playoffs. But you can see why he is effective and why his approach works with this team better than Torre’s would have. He’s also very good at learning and changing (e.g., his media dealings with players’ injuries), which wasn’t true of Torre, who was very stubborn (e.g., his use of the bullpen).
“And to attack Cashman like he did, when Brian saved his job for at least the previous two years was unseemly”
————————————————
if this is true, then this
back in the day i thought the world of Torre. That said, would venture to say Joe Girardi is twice the man Joe Torre is
So Torre’s book was mentioned at 8:45 last night. Its now 7:30 the next morning and the Torre bashing is still going strong…Wow…new thread please
Did you guys see this?
If you were starting a team and could have any Yankee, who would you take?
Francona: “Because I really like my job here in Boston, I am going to refrain from selecting any Yankee.”
Trembley: “Derek Jeter — an old type player in the new era. He’s consistent and knows how to win day in and day out. Of course, you would want him when he was 25 years old, not 35.”
Acta: “Derek Jeter. He is a good premium position player with character and makeup off the chart.”
Wakamatsu: “Mark Teixeira. He is a consummate professional, a complete player and at 29 years of age in the prime of his career.”
Washington: “Obviously, it would be Derek Jeter. He creates a winning atmosphere with his presence alone. It creates a team-first attitude, which separates the Yankees from other organizations.”
blake
I never understood why pointing out a person’s faults is considered bashing.
Given the ages of the players (and the fragility of pitchers), I would take Teix.
I love Jeter but building a team around a 35 year old SS is the PC answer but not a winning one.
There’s no rhyme, reason, or explanation of what criteria is used as a standard for retiring Yankee uniform numbers.
Two of the best examples are Billy Martin and Reggie Jackson.
Billy had a less than average career with the Yankees but won rings ’50-’51-’52-’53-’55, and ’56 as a player and just one as a manager in ’77. In 1950, he wore No. 12. Hank Bauer as an example, had a better career.
Reggie was a Yankee from only 1977-1981 but is best remembered for the World Series of 1977. His best numbers were compiled in Oakland.
Rich, when people point out someones faults for over 10 hours then I’d consider that bashing.. I know its partly because there is nothing else to talk about but Geez I was just hoping to talk some 2010 Yankees..
Pat M, there is so much bad blood between the Yankees and Torre…….If they ever make peace, #6 would be retired immediately.
Craw, Joe did it to himself, I’m sorry. What he did with his book is almost unforgivable…..
I think the answer to that question depends on if the question is asking which player would you take off the team right now or which player in their prime would you take..
Based on that criteria the whole off-season has been nothing but bashing. and most of the time bashing people who aren’t even Yankees.
So talking about Yankees 2010 won’t be any more jolly.
Besides m and I did a good job of moving on from the Torre talk lol. Blake you helped bring it back up. You’re in the corner!
December is the perfect time to debate/discuss the past. I don’t think the Yankees should retire Torre’s number without some reconciliation. Torre’s book (yes Torre’s book) was a low class way to try and tear down the Yankees a little. Has he ever issued an apology? Not to the organization but to the players whose confidence he betrayed.
And as it stands now if I’m starting a team I’ll take teix. He is in his prime.
Blake, link please?
Blake, we’ve been talking 2010 Yankees for weeks………
As to Jeter, as AJ said in his interview with Brandon Steiner, he’s the most confident player I’ve ever seen. I really don’t think Jeter pays any attention to criticism – or praise, frankly. I don’t think he spends time scouring the sports pages or the internet for comments about his play. Naturally, some idiot will bring criticism to his attention and perhaps that might irk him, but if it does, it doesn’t irk him much at all. I think he laughs and shrugs it off……esp. since much of the criticism comes from statheads. Jeter is not motivated by anything other than professional pride and a desire to be the best he can be. Once the Yankees brought up some of his defensive issues, did he get his back up and refuse to acknowledge them? No – he set about working harder than ever to improve his game and it paid off. He’s a remarkable players and I’m so proud that he’s a Yankee.
Obviously some managers interpreted the question as meaning in their prime……fine with me. You can’t ever go wrong starting a team with Jeter.
Tala08, sorry. obviously wasn’t my intention.
Betsy, I don’t have the link but it was on the pinstripes blot I believe..
If the question meant now I’d probably to with Cc or tex.
In their prime it would be between Jeter and Arod. Hard to go against Jeter but a 25 year old arod playing SS was pretty darn good himself..arod is probably the most talented baseball player in history just based solely on tools.
Maybe I shouldn’t say the most talented, but certainly one of them. A young Mantle was pretty “toolsy” as well…
Blake, thanks!
More than one right answer to a question like that. Bottom line for me is I’m starting with an ace or an up the middle player. I love Teixeira, but there are too many other 1B’s around baseball from whom I can get very close to the same level of production. Based on age and talent right now, I’d start with Sabathia.
Betsy, I meant the Pinstripes Blog no Blot, i’m driving down the road trying to type on my blackberry. Yes I know I shouldn’t blog and drive….
He’s not there yet, but one day the answer to that question could be Cano. Young, strong defense and outstanding production from 2B? That’s a great spot to start a team.
Blake, no problem. I figured out which blog you meant and checked it out…….NO blogging and driving, lol.
Betsy,
When you get a chance send me your email address so we can make plans to go to New Chilli and Curry after the New Year. My email address is Fran0322@aol.com.
Frank, Cano has the talent to be a monster at 2b. He needs to work on his concentration and pitch selection, those are only things holding him back from being an MVP caliber player (home grown as well)..
Fran, I’m going out now, but as soon as I return, I will e-mail you!
I hope Chad had a great time, back home in Sikeston….maybe he made it out to Lambert’s No. 1, and enjoyed a few ‘throwed rolls’.
http://www.throwedrolls.com/sh.....e=Sikeston
Now there’s a visit that has everything…danger, excitement, carbs……….
Have a splendid New Year, everyone!
attractive topic:
if were initiating a new franchise, and able to select any player from the yankees and any existing contract was not a factor my selection would be: Mark Teixeria
if existing contract was a factor, then my selection would be: Curtis Granderson
if players via the Yankees farm system were not protected, then i would bypass both of the above, and instead select: Jesus Montero
yes, i believe in Montero this much
# Betsy – high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 9:22 am
Pat M, there is so much bad blood between the Yankees and Torre…….If they ever make peace, #6 would be retired immediately.
Betsy======================================================
What if Holliday wants #6, in honor of the Mick’s original #, does he get it?
This is just daydreaming but image a 2011 lineup of:
Jeter (ss)
Cano (2b)
Tex (1b)
Arod (3b)
Holliday (LF)
Montero (C/DH)
Posada (C/DH)
Granderson (CF)
Swisher (RF)
I know its unlikely but hey its fun to think about. Also I put Cano second because I think he’s going to take great strides this year and he would see a ton of fastballs hitting in front of Tex and Arod. Also, this lineup requires virtually no position player moves next offseason. They could focus totally on signing Cliff Lee and not have to worry about anything else.
What if Holliday wants #6, in honor of the Mick’s original #, does he get it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It’s possible seeing as No. 6 hasn’t been retired but it’s out of the question for him to get the No. 15 he had in St. Louis.
About a week ago on Joe Buck Live, I heard Joe talk about how celebrities can turn it around with an apology in re: to Tiger Woods. While talking about Tiger, he brought up Alex Rodriguez and how he turned from goat and hated to World Series hero, and how all it took was an apology…
He then went on to insult Mark McGwire for not apologizing, because he is the new Cards batting coach.
But no mention of David Ortiz.
On Sports Reporters of the decade today, John Saunders said that he has learned that Alex used steroids for his 3 most productive years, then was “allowed to move on, put up great numbers, and do something he has never done before, help the Yankees win a World Series.” He then went to say “All is not only forgiven, but forgotten” with disgust.
He then brings up how the names of the steroid era are players that are no longer playing, and the way to not have your name brought up, is to continue playing, and in Alex’s case, win.
This guy is absolutely sickening. First, it’s not forgotten, if your sick self must continue bringing it up, as does Joe Buck’s sick self.
Second, no mention of David Ortiz. He was believed and forgotten just 10 minutes after his press conference.
“Second, no mention of David Ortiz. He was believed and forgotten just 10 minutes after his press conference.”
I did find that very curious. The media has a very selective memory when it comes to things like this.
No Manny either? He didn’t apologize.
Interesting piece in the Boston Herald on the new head of the MLBPA. Among other things, he indicated that the Union would not oppose a worldwide draft, but would oppose slotting for draft picks. Sounds like he is OK with the current lux tax/revenue sharing plan, but apparently will be resistant to significant changes MLB may propose. Sounds like he’s a NO on blood testing players.
Joe Torre was and is the man……To have to read what some of the idiots in here are writing is disturbing. You give Yankees fans a bad name. Stop crying about the book GEEEZ….It was a friggin book and he didnt say anything that bad anyway……Books always have controversial things in it…..it is a must. Grow up!!
Manny has Boston roots. That’s why. If it comes out that Manny used while on the Red Sox world series teams, that taints it for them.
I think it’s already a pretty safe assumption that Manny and Ortiz used during their championship years, definitely Manny, but when Manny was first outed, Peter Gammons came running to his defense, saying that the drugs Manny was taking could have been for a legitimate reason….
even though the drugs were for females or for chronic steroid users.
After my discussion about Torre last night, I would like to clarify one thing.
It is not easy to manage 4 WS teams in 5 years.
I think Torre should be welcomed back by the Yankees one day soon, have his number retired, and hopefully he could apologize to the organization and players he wronged.
Even if Holliday were to sign with the Yankees, #6 wouldn’t be the smartest selection for Yankee fans, given the reaction they had over O’Neill’s #21, which was beyond stupid.
I hope we end up having the problem of what number to give Holliday..
don’t sleep on Kevin Russo for a utility role with the Yankees
chad loves him
Holliday’s not coming here. We just signed Sarnataro, who should handle LF,
“Craw, Joe did it to himself, I’m sorry. What he did with his book is almost unforgivable…..”
Betsy,
You never read the book so forgive me if I make up my own mind that regard. Nothing in that book was unforgivable. The part that bothered me the most was his criticism of Cashman and not enough about himself. Cashman went to bat for Torre in 2001, 2003, 2004 and 2006. After the 2007 season, Cashman properly read the tea leaves that it was not in his best interest to put his Yankee career in further jeopardy for Torre again. Torre had enemies of all the Yankee executives above Cashman which were Levine, Trost, Hank Steinbrenner and probably Hal Steinbrenner too. In short, without the old man or Steinbrenner’s former son-in-law as Torre supporters, Cashman was all alone this time. Torre should have accepted the reality that Cashman did everything he could for him and that it was simply time to move on from the Yankees.
In time, I hope Torre makes the necessary peace with Cashman and the organization so that he can be welcome back to Yankee Stadium because it’s in the best interest of the team and the overall fanbase that such a conciliation takes place when Torre retires from managing. It should be a time to celebrate and appreciate the WS championships won during that rebirth of the Yankee legacy.
“Holliday’s not coming here. We just signed Sarnataro”
———————————————–
who?
crawdaddy
What is not unforgivable, but in need of a heartfelt apology, is to Damon, for giving out personal information about Damon’s personal woes and battle with depression (or whichever the mental illness Damon suffers from)
pizza/food court?
Torre can avoid being at 191st and River Avenue in 2010.
The Yankees visit L.A. on June 25-26-27 as part of interleague schedule.
“crawdaddy
What is not unforgivable, but in need of a heartfelt apology, is to Damon, for giving out personal information about Damon’s personal woes and battle with depression (or whichever the mental illness Damon suffers from)”
At the time, it was written not to me.
** typo ** 161st. St. and River Avenue
vinny-b (NJ and Granderson – thank you Cashman!)
December 27th, 2009 at 11:27 am
“Holliday’s not coming here. We just signed Sarnataro”
———————————————–
who?
————————————————————
Forget it, Vinny. He’s either a troll, an idiot or both. He’s been posting the same crap for three days…nothing else. Geoffrey Sarnataro signed with the Mets over 2 weeks ago.
Actually, Vinny, there’s nothing anywhere that suggests that this guy is with the Mets or any other team, as far as I can find.
Tim Hasselbeck, on ESPN.
The Giants looked good against the Redskins last week, but that was the Redskins.
Prior to the Giants/Redskins game last week, Tim Hasselbeck said the Redskins could put up a fight against the Giants and maybe win the game, as they had lost their previous 3 games to the Saints, Eagles, and Cowboys by a combined total of 7 points IIRC.
Tim Hasselbeck, former Giant, but Bostonian through and through.
I’m all for patching things up with Torre but he does owe Damon, Alex and a others an apology for some of the book nonsense.
However I am not in favor of retiring his number. The Yanks have retired way too many numbers in my view.
If it were up to me, the Yankees retired number list would be this: # 3, # 4, # 5, # 7, # 8, # 16
That’s it. The greatest of the great. I would make room for # 2 and # 42 as well.
Gb7. I wanted to ask you this earlier but didn’t think you were around.. Pure baseball talent and tools who had more Arod or mantle? Not asking who the better player is, but who had more natural baseball ability in your opinion?
Well, Craw, for me it’s unforgivable what he did – so we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I don’t particularly care if Cashman forgives Joe or not – that’s his business. IMO, that breach will be harder to repair than the one between the Yankees organization and Joe because this one was personal. AS you said (or implied), Joe presumed on his friendship with Cash and then stuck a knife in his back when Cash had to protect himself (and not only that, but Cash actually had honest philosophical disagreements with Joe…..disagreements which Joe took personally).
If Joe and the Yankees reconcile, great – but I’m not sitting around hoping for it to happen. I still appreciate and love those teams despite the way it ended.
I just bought the official commemorative book on the WS – called Twenty Seven and I absolutely recommend it. It’s a beautiful hardcover book with great pics and articles.
Betsy,
Where did you buy the book?
blake
December 27th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Gb7. I wanted to ask you this earlier but didn’t think you were around.. Pure baseball talent and tools who had more Arod or mantle? Not asking who the better player is, but who had more natural baseball ability in your opinion?
————————————————————
It’s as close as any two talents could be, but, without a doubt, had Mantle had the gift of health, he’d outstrip both Cobb and Ruth….those words came from Ty Cobb in 1960 who said that Mantle was the most gifted baseball player that he’d ever seen and only his health was against him. Ted Williams said nearly the same thing.
Craw, fyi – I’m not trying to argue with you, but it’s clear we have a different perspective on this.
Frankly, it’s not up to me to forgive (hell yes, I’m still annoyed – though I don’t think about it unless the subject is brought up). It’s up to the players in the book that he opened up about…….
Gb7, I’d say that’s two pretty good sources.
Fran, I bought it at Barnes and Nobles. I’d been looking for the book for weeks as it was supposed to be out in early December and then got delayed…..I had actually already bought the DVD I went there for and saw the book on my way out.
I’m going to email you in a few minutes……. It’s such a gorgeous day, by the way. Too bad the weather is going to take a bad turn tomorrow.
Mickey Mantle sounds like a Roy Hobbes, almost too perfect to be true (I did NOT like the Natural, by the way – I thought it was ridiculous).
Betsy,
Thanks. It is beautiful out. At least it is melting a lot of the snow that is left.
Fran, I just e-mailed you – let me know if you don’t get it in a few minutes and I will re-send it.
thank you, GB.
Betsy – high on pie
December 27th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Fran, I bought it at Barnes and Nobles. I’d been looking for the book for weeks as it was supposed to be out in early December and then got delayed…..I had actually already bought the DVD I went there for and saw the book on my way out.
I’m going to email you in a few minutes……. It’s such a gorgeous day, by the way. Too bad the weather is going to take a bad turn tomorrow.
————————————————————
Picture a player with more power than Alex Rodriguez from both sides of the plate and much faster than Brett Gardner. Actually, his time from home to first as a rookie was 3.1 seconds…after swinging the bat.
No problem, Vinny.
With regard to Torre I will be interested to get Javier Vasquez take. After the trade last week it was reported that he did not feel comfortable playing for Torre. Will playing for Girardi make a difference?
Betsy,
Got it. Will answer you in a few minutes.
GB, wow as to the power. I guess 3.1 is fast? I really don’t know……..I always find it a shame when players careers are curtailed or derailed by injuries; there’s always the “what might have been” question hovering over them. Of course, in my time, Mattingly was the biggest “what might have been”, but I’m sorry for Mark Prior as well……even Rick Ankiel as a pitcher.
Betsy, 3.1 is blindingly fast.
GB – 7
With The Mick, catching his foot in the RF drain at the Stadium in the ’51 WS was a factor.
Even though he played superbly through the pain for the rest of his career, he was wrapped and taped like a mummy before games which held down the blazing speed he had.
Ahhhh yes ….. another day without the smokes for you. It will get easier.
reenBeret7 December 27th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Even if Holliday were to sign with the Yankees, #6 wouldn’t be the smartest selection for Yankee fans, given the reaction they had over O’Neill’s #21, which was beyond stupid.
============================
Sentimentality is not one of your strong points. In fact, you probably consider it a weakness, eh, tough guy.
we’ll never know about Arod vs. Mantle since he’s been on roids/HGH since Day 1.
What is not unforgivable, but in need of a heartfelt apology, is to Damon, for giving out personal information about Damon’s personal woes and battle with depression (or whichever the mental illness Damon suffers from)”
====================================================
Johnny D. is mentally ill? We all are to a certain extent, maybe he moreso for turning down our offer.
GM, everyone.
This is for those who are big fans of “Lost”.
http://www.starbulletin.com/fe....._lost.html
Jim Mason
Maybe a better comparison would be A-rod vs Red Sox Big Papi circa 2003-2008.
“Johnny D. is mentally ill? We all are to a certain extent, maybe he moreso for turning down our offer.”
I was being serious. It’s not a joke. Something like 80% of people suffer from depression or anxiety.
We all are to a certain extent,
=================================
I agreed.
Jacob
I do not understand what that means. Why should we compare Alex to Ortiz. Ortiz has been on steroids since his Red Sox arrival. Alex was on them from 2001-2003, not his entire career as Jim Mason would have us believe.
You could say, for all intents and purposes, that Ortiz was on steroids his entire career, as his arrival with the Red Sox was the beginning of his career and also the change of his name from David Arias to David Ortiz.
“I always find it a shame when players careers are curtailed or derailed by injuries; there’s always the “what might have been” question hovering over them. Of course, in my time, Mattingly was the biggest “what might have been”, but I’m sorry for Mark Prior as well……even Rick Ankiel as a pitcher.”
I suppose we’ll have to count Ankiel under the injury banner or mental breakdown. I was living in St Louis at the time, and it was amazing to see how such a dominant athlete could completely fall to pieces in such a short window of time. There have been a lot of mental issues with players, like Knoblauch with his throws to first, but I haven’t seen anything approaching in the insanity of the Ankiel situation.
Neil
December 27th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
GB – 7
With The Mick, catching his foot in the RF drain at the Stadium in the ‘51 WS was a factor.
Even though he played superbly through the pain for the rest of his career, he was wrapped and taped like a mummy before games which held down the blazing speed he had.
Ahhhh yes ….. another day without the smokes for you. It will get easier.
————————————————————
Mantle’s leg injuries actually go back as far as high school football. What doctors thought was just a bruise actually turned into a severe bone diesease, osteomyelitis, basically, it’s a bone disease and injection that usually ended up with amputation. The only thing that saved his leg was penicillin, that had been developed in enough quantities just before the end of WWII to be available to the general public.
By the way, I know David Ortiz was recognized as Ortiz with the Twins, but his performance with the Twins was that of David Arias, and his Steroid-Aided performance with the Sox was that of David Ortiz.
GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Even if Holliday were to sign with the Yankees, #6 wouldn’t be the smartest selection for Yankee fans, given the reaction they had over O’Neill’s #21, which was beyond stupid.
=========================================================
Why is it that anyone who disagrees with you is either a troll or stupid?
If a great ballplayer came over and wanted Oneill’s #, either out of tribute or because he had always worn it, then so be it. Out of respect to O’Neill, Yankee brass should not have given that # to LaTroy Hawkins. After all, who was he anyway?
mick
December 27th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
reenBeret7 December 27th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Even if Holliday were to sign with the Yankees, #6 wouldn’t be the smartest selection for Yankee fans, given the reaction they had over O’Neill’s #21, which was beyond stupid.
============================
Sentimentality is not one of your strong points. In fact, you probably consider it a weakness, eh, tough guy.
————————————————————
Give it a rest. O’Neill didn’t do anything that deserved a retired number, anymore than reggie Jackson did. George Steinbrenner bought Jackson’s HOF hat for a retired number and a plaque. O’Neill was a fine player, but, not great. Murcer deserves it more. Torre will most likely get one if he apologizes to the Steinbrenners. As far as your remarks about my “sentimentality”, I expected nothing better from you. If that was your idea of a little humor, it failed.
mick
December 27th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Even if Holliday were to sign with the Yankees, #6 wouldn’t be the smartest selection for Yankee fans, given the reaction they had over O’Neill’s #21, which was beyond stupid.
=========================================================
Why is it that anyone who disagrees with you is either a troll or stupid?
If a great ballplayer came over and wanted Oneill’s #, either out of tribute or because he had always worn it, then so be it. Out of respect to O’Neill, Yankee brass should not have given that # to LaTroy Hawkins. After all, who was he anyway?
————————————————————
Should they wait until it’s the last 2 digit number before giving it out?
Why should it have mattered if LaTroy Hawkins asked for and got #21? O’Neill wasn’t one of the great players. His number shouldn’t be retired, even though O’Neill seems to think it should.
Nice penalty to take away a Giants TD.
And a penalty on the defense to do nothing re: a Packers TD.
I love getting TDs taken away due to penalties. The Giants must have that happen the most of any team. Refereeing at its finest.
The fans were the ones who got it wrong. Booing Hawkins.
Going back to Torre’s number. The story Jeter likes to tell is that it was the only one that fit him and they had ready or something like that.
Will there be another player like Jeter that could come up and wear a single digit?
Holliday hasn’t taken the Cards offer yet?
The Yanks haven’t sign a podunk LF from the scrap heap?
And ‘Lost’ speaks of the lack of communication between Boras and Cashman.
The silence is deafening…
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Abdababdaserser December 27th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Why should it have mattered if LaTroy Hawkins asked for and got #21? O’Neill wasn’t one of the great players. His number shouldn’t be retired, even though O’Neill seems to think it should.
================================
It has nothing to do with retiring his #.
He was a great crowd favorite, as you saw in his final WS home game, and mgmt was wrong to have given it out so soon. Which was later rectified when his # was changed. It upset too many people and they made him change it.
Paco, I guess armchair psychologists speculated that Ankiel’s issues with his father lead to his losing his control completely. It’s too bad he used PEDs, because when he remade himself as a hitter and came back, it was a wonderful story; how could anyone not have rooted for him? One of MLB’s Prime 9 shows featured “what might have beens” and Ankiel, of course, made the list.
The fans disgraced themselves with their attitude toward Hawkins…
nners. As far as your remarks about my “sentimentality”, I expected nothing better from you. If that was your idea of a little humor, it failed.
=========================================
You seem hurt. Dish it out but can’t take it, huh?
The fans disgraced themselves with their attitude toward Hawkins…
======================================
Back it up.
Why is it that anyone who disagrees with you is either a troll or stupid?
=====================================
You have a way of avoiding confrontation by belittling others.
Why don’t you answer my question, too deep for you?
m
December 27th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
The fans were the ones who got it wrong. Booing Hawkins.
Going back to Torre’s number. The story Jeter likes to tell is that it was the only one that fit him and they had ready or something like that.
Will there be another player like Jeter that could come up and wear a single digit?
————————————————————
If ever the Yanks had a #6 that deserved having his number retired, it was Roy White…a stylish player and a true gentleman of the sport that did the Yankees proud. He was certainly a better representative of the Yankees than a Billy Martin/Reggie Jackson type.
Wait…I thought miggs was the one giving Betsy a hard time.
mick
December 27th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
nners. As far as your remarks about my “sentimentality”, I expected nothing better from you. If that was your idea of a little humor, it failed.
=========================================
You seem hurt. Dish it out but can’t take it, huh?
————————————————————
Certainly not by somebody like you..or, for that matter, anybody else, and especially on a sports board.
I know what I can be on occassion. The difference between me and others is that I admit it when others won’t.
m
December 27th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
The fans were the ones who got it wrong. Booing Hawkins.
===================================
They were booing mgmt. who gave the ok for him to wear that #. It was a mistake, they corrected it. I love the way some fans sit on high and ridicule the real fans who go the games and are on top of things here in NY.
mick
December 27th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Why is it that anyone who disagrees with you is either a troll or stupid?
=====================================
You have a way of avoiding confrontation by belittling others.
Why don’t you answer my question, too deep for you?
————————————————————
Yes, mick..you and you’re questions are too deep for me. As deep as a petri dish.
I guess that Carolina TD is not gettin called back by penalty.
The refs are doing what they gotta do this game.
Certainly not by somebody like you..or, for that matter, anybody else, and especially on a sports board.
===========================
You don’t know me, GB. You have prejudices, why can’t you say my name. Are you above it all. Get off your high horse.
M, giving me a hard time is putting it nicely; the guy is obsessed and a few other words I can’t say here.
Mick, I don’t have to back it up; it’s my opinion. The situation wasn’t rectified, Hawkins had no choice – he was being booed and heckled off the field. Too soon? O’Neill has been retired for years……If the Yankees thought it was too soon, they wouldn’t have allowed other players to wear it. Too bad they didn’t take into account the fans’ obsession.
I know what I can be on occassion.
======================================
At least we agree on that.
And it’s more than occasionally.
What’s done is done with #1 and #37. Managers should not have retired numbers in the first place.
The only retired Yankee numbers should be players with longevity and significant contribution with numbers worthy of Hall of Fame consideration or at least by the Veterans Committee.
Holding back O’Neil’s #21 is a travesty. For the sake of thanks and remembrance, #21 should have been held from issuance for one year after he retired and no more. The same should apply to Mussina beginning with this year.
Somebody should be issued #35 this coming season.
Mick, I don’t have to back it up; it’s my opinion.
====================================================
Usually people can back up their opinions, which you just did, so once again you have contradicted yourself.
Hawkins had no choice – he was being booed and heckled off the field.
=================================================
At least justice was served, seems like you and gb are in the minority.
CR9:
You’re directing your ire at the wrong guys. Giants lose to these guys, then it’s all on them.
O’Neill was a beloved Yankee, why is that so hard to understand.
He wore his heart on his sleeve as did the fans for him.
If that is hard to understand…then you obviously didn’t love the guy like most did.
What other old issues should be dredged up and bickered about today?
Hey, was Chad Curtis right to criticize Jeter for fraternization during an ingame rumble?
Was management right to jettison Chaddy Chaddy Bang Bang after that season?
m, thanks for that Lost link.
Justice was served? We have a different definition of justice.
Also, I don’t care if I’m part of the minority – which I don’t think I am. I don’t hold opinions based on what other people think.
Betsy
You obviously had something against O’Neill, for what reason I do not know.
So mick is right and everyone else is wrong?
Nick, NP. Knew you would be interested. Thought of you and those Virgin Mary statues.
mick
December 27th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Certainly not by somebody like you..or, for that matter, anybody else, and especially on a sports board.
===========================
You don’t know me, GB. You have prejudices, why can’t you say my name. Are you above it all. Get off your high horse.
————————————————————
You’ve got to be joking. I’m prejudiced because I don’t call you by an imaginary name? I could have called you Idiot or Troll. Would that make you happier? You’re closer to those than “Mick”.
Justice was served? We have a different definition of justice.
============================
Why don’t you read posts you disagree with and see what others are trying to say.
Why did mgmt take the # away? They made a mistake and rectified it. The fans let them know. They were certainly in the majority AT the ballgames.
I could have called you Idiot or Troll. Would that make you happier? You’re closer to those than “Mick”.
=================================
There you go again.
m December 27th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
So mick is right and everyone else is wrong?
==================================================
Funny, that’s the same opinion I have of you, Betsy and gb.
What a coincidence.
Why not retire #1 and #2 for Bobby Murcer, #s6, 21 and 48 for Roy White, #31 for Dave Winfield, #s 30 and 34 for Mel Stottlemyre?
mick,
You back up your opinion, then. Tell us why O’neill’s number HAS to be retired. I don’t care either way. All I know is that the Yankees weren’t thinking about retiring the number when they issued it to Hawkins.
And yes, I’m quite opinionated, but I try very hard to respect other’s rights to offer their opinion.
And I’m not the one who’s being passive-aggressive today.
Except for two managers (one undeserving), one history making player and one undeserving player, every retired number belongs to lifetime Yankees.
m
once again I never said a word about retiring his #. it was the instance where they gave it out to a no-name the year after he retired. it was disrespectful, the fans thought so and made their feelings known.
and what the heck is passive-aggressive about this, please explain.
The year after he retired? O’Neill had been retired for 6 years.
mick,
You’re in everyone’s face. Insisting that Betsy “back it up” her opinion. It’s just an opinion. And she’s right. It was low-class to boo a Yankee before they made their first pitch because of something that management did.
People wouldn’t be bothered by it if they didn’t think it should be retired. Otherwise, what’s the proper mourning period? When will it be appropriate for them to reissue the number if they decide not to retire it?
If the great Clemente came down from heaven, he could have the #.
Please be more tolerant and read what people say before you do your sarcastic routine upside their head.
You’re in everyone’s face.
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Your “opinion” is once again wrong.
It’s only gb and betsy I have taken issue with, as so many others have.
Some people just didn’t like LaTroy Hawkins.
Please be more tolerant
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Funny, that’s what I think about you. What a coincidence.
Just kidding, mick. Obviously, you feel very passionate about the issue, and I won’t trivialize it any further.
Have a good day.
OMG, mick.
You’re rivaling Nick for Top Parser of Words.
LOL I have something against O’Neill……..I don’t love him as much as others do. M is right – she’s got her radar on for passive-aggressive BS.
So many others have taken issue with me? You’re referring to a psychopath who won’t leave me a lone and a bunch of his troll cronies who insult me, then leave and never come back.
mick
December 27th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
If the great Clemente came down from heaven, he could have the #.
Please be more tolerant and read what people say before you do your sarcastic routine upside their head.
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Facts = Sarcasm?. I was wrong. You’re not smart enough to be a troll or an idiot.
Good stuff Betsy, keep giving it back.
I only parse words in the service of good.
Facts = Sarcasm?. I was wrong. You’re not smart enough to be a troll or an idiot.
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Opinions=Facts? Man you are obtuse. But not smart enough to know what that means.