The LoHud Yankees Blog

A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Joba or Phil

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 27, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

If everyone stays healthy, the Yankees rotation will have room for only one of Joba Chamberlain and Phil Hughes. That’s obvious. Whichever doesn’t make the cut will fall back into the bullpen or go to Triple-A (though I tend to think Triple-A is unlikely simply because the bullpen impact would be too great to pass up).

When I’ve been asked to guess, I’ve guessed that Hughes will be the starter and Chamberlain the reliever, but I don’t think there’s an obvious answer. I’ve long been in the “Chamberlain should be a starter” camp, and I’m still there. I think the best thing for the Yankees is to use both Hughes and Chamberlain as starters, but there simply is not room for both of them in the New York rotation.

If one of them is going to bump to the bullpen, I prefer moving Chamberlain because his stuff plays up so well as a reliever. Hughes throws a little bit harder when he’s coming out of the bullpen, but it’s not the suddenly electric stuff we’ve seen from Chamberlain. And, frankly, I think Hughes is the better starter of the two. He has the fastball, curveball and cutter, and I believe the changeup will be a quality pitch.

Hughes would have more of an innings limit than Chamberlain, but Hughes threw 105.1 innings this year. That’s more than Chamberlain pitched in 2008. Hughes has also been stretched out to 146 in the past, which is much more than Chamberlain ever threw in the minors. If Hughes can pitch a little bit beyond the 157 innings that Chamberlain threw in 2009, I think that would be enough to make it work.

And the alternative of putting Hughes back in the bullpen would mean a fourth straight year of him pitching not much more than 100 innings. Every year that happens it becomes more and more difficult to ever make him a starter.

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448 Responses to “Joba or Phil”

  1. Paco Dooley December 27th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    Joba in the rotation, Phil in the pen to start the season.

  2. Bret the Hitman December 27th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    Holliday hasn’t taken the Cards offer yet?
    The Yanks haven’t signed a podunk LF from the scrap heap?
    And ‘Lost’ speaks of the lack of communication between Boras and Cashman?
    The silence is deafening…

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    B12 as Methylcobalamin (100mg)

    All natural, day-long euphoric buzz

  3. Paco Dooley December 27th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    And no to AAA, that doesn’t seem to be an option for these two any longer. Joba will be a fine starter, just give him a decent chance. He had pretty good numbers this season for a young starter. Phil was also lights out in the pen, and he’ll still have more of an innings limit. Someone in the rotation (most likely Pettitte) may miss a few starts, and so you have him ready to build back up into the rotation.

  4. ortforshort December 27th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    Neither. They’re both relievers until they prove otherwise. Its a bad idea, going into the season, once again, hoping that a young guy comes thru as a starter. Sign Bedard. Re-sign Wang. Go after Sheets. Get an established guy in there. Do it the old fashioned way. When a starter gets hurt (they always do somewhere along the line), work Hughes or Chamberlain in and see if they’re ready yet. Do we have to go thru this handing these guys a job only to see them screw up again? Then ending up with an equivilant to a Ponson, Rasner, Karstens, Giese, Gaudin, Mitre, Small, Chacon etc in the rotation. Let’s do it the right way this time. Besides, you could do worse than a dominant Hughes and a dominant Chamberlain in your bullpen.

  5. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 1:49 pm

    CR9
    December 27th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
    I guess that Carolina TD is not gettin called back by penalty.

    The refs are doing what they gotta do this game.

  6. m December 27th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    Hughes in the rotation. Joba to the pen.

    If they insist on making Joba a starter, the right thing to do is send him to AAA to break down his mechanics. His shoulder might not be allowing him to top out like he used to, I think they can tweak his mechanics for better results. Another reason I say send him to AAA is because we often hear, “…because Joba didn’t spend much time in the minors…” Can’t have it both ways.

    Otherwise, Chad, very good observations. And I realize that they’re not going to send either one to AAA. They’re just too talented.

  7. m December 27th, 2009 at 1:57 pm

    Beginning to end, that was a gorgeous play for the Baltimore TD.

  8. Chris from NJ December 27th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    Wow, the giants really stink. I think Joba is happier out of the bullpen, he likes maxing out for one or two innings in a high impact situation. I think stuff-wise, everyone is a little better for a few innings, but I think Hughes has a little more maturity which I think makes him a better bet for hte rotation.

  9. Patrick Bateman December 27th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    I’d prefer Hughes in the pen and Joba in the rotation.

    Hughes has a history of being a fragile pitcher thus far in his career. He had the hamstring injury which kept him out most of the season then he had the fractured rib. I also haven’t liked what I’ve seen with Hughes when he stops throwing strikes when he gets nervous. He did it in the post season last year, he started throwing everything outside the zone. The same thing happened when he and Kennedy were in the rotation. Neither of them could throw a strike. I also wasn’t too impressed with the velocity on Phil’s fastball as a starter. It was 91-92ish with little movement. Only time I saw movement on his fastball was when he was in the bullpen.

    Chamberlain has finally reached a level with no innings limit, and no foolish system of switching him from a starter to a reliever mid season or letting him only make a 3 inning start. Lets finally see what he can do for a normal season with no restrictions.

  10. Vincent December 27th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    This is easy. Whoever earns it gets the job. I’m fine with either scenario.

  11. vinny-b (NJ and Granderson - thank you Cashman!) December 27th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

    “if they insist on making Joba a starter, the right thing to do is send him to AAA to break down his mechanics. His shoulder might not be allowing him to top out like he used to, I think they can tweak his mechanics for better results. Another reason I say send him to AAA is because we often hear, “…because Joba didn’t spend much time in the minors…” Can’t have it both ways”
    ————————————————–

    intelligent post. Joba in AAA would also be good for his “outlook”

  12. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

    Mohammed pushed off for that TD.

    No penalty to take it away however.

    We are in trouble.

  13. jake December 27th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

    Joba or Phil? Joba or Phil? What will we do when we no longer have that question to argue?

    My opinion is this: Joba belongs in the bullpen.

    As much as I’d love to see Joba turn into the Clemens-esque #1 starter so many have imagined, I think his future is in the bullpen. Why? Simple: out of the bullpen, Joba has shown himself to be effective. Out of the rotation, he’s been inconsistent and, too often, has looked like “just another guy.” Remember when he first came up? Electrifying, overpowering. He’s virtually NEVER looked like that as a starter.
    The main reason why the Yanks were able to sign Joba is because of questions about his health. He’d been hurt in college and his “conditioning” had been an issue. Generally speaking, the bullpen is a less physically taxing environment than the starting rotation.
    This would, perhaps, be another reason to keep Joba there.
    But most important: Who would replace the great Mo as closer? When Joba first came up, he looked like the best reliever in the game. 98mph heat and a killer slider. (We’ve seen neither pitch from him as a starter!!!)
    As for Phil, he’s got three to four good pitches. His fastball, alone, is not the hammer that Joba’s can be. But his overall package is a good one for a starter.
    Sure, it would seem a little bit of a disappointment not to see Joba in the rotation, but what if he were to be the reliever that he was when he first came up? I say let him set up Mo in 2010 then, when Mo retires, let Joba be the fireman. He’s got the stuff, he’s got the fire.

  14. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    I still think AAA is the best option for Phil (I just can not see him winning a competition in ST – he’s not as advanced as Joba is thanks to the Yankees keeping him in the pen this year). It’s asinine if Phil stays in the pen as the set- up man; I totally agree, Chad. If he does, then he will be no more advanced in 2011 than he is this year. He also couldn’t be a spot sparter as he’d not be stretched uot. How long to the Yankees plan to waste Phil’s talent? The Yankees need to be forward thinking and send Phil to AAA. At least he could use all his pitches. I’d like to see him have a chance to go through MLB lineups more than once (instead of AAA), but that’s just not possible this year. I really think that, if given the chance to start this year, Phil would have some exceptional games. He’d be up and down, but he’d be very good at times and in 2011, he’d be a lot better.

  15. jake December 27th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    Oh, and I think the Yanks should, and will, re-sign Wang. He’ll provide some insurance–at least in the second half of the year–and, maybe, return to form to rejoin the rotation full-time in 2011. But, as much as I liked the idea of signing Sheets, the Vazquez deal has killed that one.

  16. O December 27th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    why not send joba to aaa for insurance…. if hughes stumbles or injury joba gets called up… if nither happens bring him in pen around july.

  17. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    Paco, unless Phil is the long-man, there is no way he can fill in for anyone as he wouldn’t be stretched out enough.

  18. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    Not going to get a penalty in this game.

    He pulled him, defensive pass interference, and no call.

    This refereeing is a sham.

    I wish more people would believe Tim Donaghy.

  19. m December 27th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    Hughes stayed healthy this year. Joba has shoulder issues, and Hughes doesn’t. Another reason for Joba to go for short stints.

    Chad, another thing is that Hughes may not be as explosive as 2008 Joba, but his fastball is sneaky. And he made quite a few hitters look foolish. I saw very few complaints about Hughes as a reliever until the playoffs.

  20. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    CR9:

    This game is not about the refs

  21. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    You have a home game with your playoff lives on the line.

    In spite of the referees cheating us, I cannot believe this is what Bill Sheridan has sent out there.

  22. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    Joba was not exactly lights out in the pen outside of 2007. Until he can get whatever issues he has straightened out, he’s not going to be great as a reliever……or as a starter.

  23. m December 27th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    Betsy,

    IIRC, Phil did well enough to win a job this season. But the job was already given to Joba. It’s not a stretch to say that Phil can’t win the job. When he’s healthy, he’s a very good pitcher.

  24. thisguy December 27th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    what do you people not understand when it comes to 23 year old kids and starting pitching?

    it is rare young pitchers succeed before 2-3 years of starting in mlb…what you need to look for his development.

    whichever guy fails to make the rotation should be sent down.

    if the yanks were so worried about the bullpen, then they should have signed some relievers…there were enough out there…and if the bullpen begins to suck, then you can re-evaluate the situation.

    top starting pitching prospects deserve a shot at being a starter. if joba doesn’t show progress as a starter this year, i understand the yanks considering the move of him to the pen…but he hasn’t even had a chance to fail, he hasn’t even pitched a full season yet.

    go look at some of the great pitchers and see how they fared when they first came up to the bigs.

  25. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    There was a holding on that 3rd and 11 conversion.

    I guess the refs are not giving us a penalty until the 2nd half and this game is way out of hand.

  26. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    M, he made the Tigers and Rangers look utterly foolish. Why are fans fixated on velocity? When he started this year, Phil’s velocity was back to 92-94, where it usually is. He has swing and miss stuff; his K to BB ratio as a starter was outstanding. He’s definitely got late life on his FB……He’s going to be an outstanding starter.

  27. jake December 27th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    High on Pie Betsy: I agree with you about Phil belonging in the rotation. But I think he’d do just fine as the #5 guy in 2010. The Yanks shouldn’t send him to AAA. They should just keep him as the #5 guy in the bigs and let him work out the kinks early in the big league season. Get 160 innings out of him as the back-end guy and he could, then, be switched into a bullpen role in the post-season. No point sending him to AAA. That wouldn’t be “forward thinking” at all. He got ML hitters out throughout 2009 and he can do it again.
    I agree he might be “up and down” but that’s true about a lot of young starters. Let him work things out in the big leagues until, and unless, he shows he really can’t handle things.

  28. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    M, I agree. All I keep hearing about is Phil’s 5.45 ERA as a starter this year, like he’s not allowed to have one horrible outing (in Baltimore, which skewed his numbers).

  29. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    Thisguy, I agree. The Yankees should bolster their pen instead of depending on Phil to do that. Then again, IMO, they have mishandled Phil from the beginning.

  30. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    Jake, they won’t do that, though. There’s to be a competition and I don’t see how Phil can win that.

  31. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    OK. We are missing Rich Seubert and Kareem McKenzie. This is putred.

    Fire Bill Sheridan!

  32. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    They did not even call the penalty. Carolina had too many men on the field.

  33. vinny-b (NJ and Granderson - thank you Cashman!) December 27th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    bret:

    you the man. Love the alternative/natural offerings you share with this site. Knowledge is power

  34. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    That is a reviewable play!!!!

    Too many men on the field is reviewable.

    Why did the booth not review it????

    Bill Belichick reviewed that in a Super Bowl and got the call in his favor, rightfully.

    Why did the booth not review that??????????????

  35. Phil December 27th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    The problem with sending either one to AAA is that they are 2 of the 12 best pitchers in the organization. Both have proven they can succeed at the Major League level. It would be awfully tough to put one in AAA whie a lesser (sp?) arm fills their spot on the major league roster.

  36. m December 27th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    Pats are up 28-0, and I’m stuck with Baltimore/Pittsburgh. :mad:

  37. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    I think Troy Aikman’s brain has been fried due to his concussions!

    We can still make the playoffs, we just have to hope for a miracle to either win this game or have the Cowboys lose tonight.

    We got one miracle with David Tyree, in the biggest of situations, so another miracle is not out of the question.

  38. RhapsodyInBlue December 27th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    We?

    Go Panthers. Go Cowboys.

  39. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    I know it’s not going to happen, but suppose Phil and Joba come into ST and both dominate as starters.

    Chad, would it be remotely possible for the Yankees to hold Andy back a little bit and protect his shoulder….and leave Joba and Phil in the rotation?

    I am not comparing Andy to Pedro, but we could hold Andy out a month to reduce his number of starts….only if Phil and Joba prove to be great starters.

  40. Dave December 27th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    I really feel strongly that CMW deserves another chance. If he and his agent can lower the price tag, admitting the risk that’s involved in signing him, I think the Yankees should take him on as a rehab project. Let’s face it, the guy can pitch. Let him at least try to be your fifth starter.

  41. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    Rhapsody
    Yes. We. As in, We Giants fans.

  42. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    Phil, that’s true, but assuming Joba wins the #5 spot, the Yanks are not doing Phil any favors by keeping him in the pen. I detest the idea that he’s going to be a set up man again – it’s a complete waste of material and, in 2011, he will be no further developed than he was a few years ago (that’s bad for him and bad for the Yankees).His career has been one frustration after another.

  43. pete December 27th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    I think that there is about a 10% chance that Joba doesn’t start in the rotation. He would have to be truly awful, and hughes truly awesome, in spring training to get the bump. Remember this is the 5th starter spot we’re talking about. We’d all love to get a 3.5 ERA out of it, but that isn’t nearly as important as getting at least 175 innings. Right now, we know that Joba’s capable of doing that, and Hughes, in all likelihood, isn’t.

    As for Hughes, I would personally prefer that he build up his arm strength by throwing innings in AAA, which would also make him a much more readily available option as injury insurance for the rotation. Without hughes OR joba in the ‘pen it’s certainly not going to be quite as strong as it was last year, but I think having hughes as our 6th starter would make our rotation so much stronger that it would make up for it.

    I’m not fully sure what to expect from joba this year – I think by the end of 2010 we’ll be able to project him a lot better. Right now the most important goal is to get him up to about 185 innings. I kind of expect it to be similar to last year – he’ll likely take a little while to settle in, then get hot for a while, and taper out towards the end (probably around earlyish september). Hopefully having the four cogs in the rotation will negate the need for a 5th starter in the playoffs and we won’t have to worry about the stuff we had to worry about last year. I’m predicting 180 innings (regular season, at most 10 in the PS), about a 4.10 ERA (3.75 at the end of august, then a couple of stinkers), and maybe 150-170 Ks.

    I know it’s tough to ignore the obvious boost to the bullpen that either of these guys gives, but the more hidden, more potential boost that hughes gives the rotation from the #6 spot is more important, I think.

  44. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    If Chamberlain comes into camp without dropping about 25 pounds and in top condition, no way he;s in the rotation, because, he’d have no more stamina than he had last year. It would be somewhat less of an issue if he’s in the bullpen.

  45. RhapsodyInBlue December 27th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    CR9
    We as in we Cowboy fans are happy with the current Giant score.

  46. GrouchoNYY December 27th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    Assuming that one of the two doesn’t totally crap out in spring training, my guess is that Joba starts out in the rotation, with Hughes pitching in two inning stints three times a week. If Joba succeeds, Phil remains in the pen. If Joba falters, after a big enough sample to be determinate, they reverse roles. The time Hughes had spent in the pen enables him to go all out for the rest of the season without increasing the innings load beyond plans.

    Of course, another starter going down could put them both in the rotation ( no, I’m not wishing for it, but has any team ever had enough starters?).

  47. m December 27th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    Joba needs to work on a lot to do what you’re projecting, pete.

    He needs to show up in shape. Stay in shape. Focus on the mound. And work with the staff and catchers.

    Can we all agree that Joba doesn’t have the best control? And that the league has adjusted to him?

    I think most signs point to Joba having more success as a reliever than a starter.

    Once again, this is my opinion, therefore there is no link.

  48. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    Good news for you Rhapsody. As long as the Patriots do not win the Super Bowl, I could care less if the Cowboys or even *gasp* the Eagles win.

    But, as a Cowboys fan, not winning a playoff game in a decade….

    And the lowly Giants played their best 4 games of the season in the playoffs in their march to SB XLII.

    That cannot feel good.

  49. GeorgeInJax December 27th, 2009 at 2:41 pm

    Phil is at a breakout point, he’s healthy and going to the bullpen was a godsend for him as he has added another pitch (the cutter – and he learned it from the best MARIANO).
    Phil is just a more all around polished pitcher. Joba has a great fastball, so unless he wins the 5th spot, AAA is a very good option to work on mechanics and refining his other pitches.

    I don’t want to jinx the rotation, but the rotation always changes throughout a year, and I can envision both these guys doing great as starters. These guys have had a couple of years of more experience & maturity from the 2008 experiment year. They are both ready to contribute.

  50. GeorgeInJax December 27th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    As a follow up to my last post,
    IMHO I think Ian Kennedy is going to have a breakout year for Arizona too. Granderson will be great for us & It was a good trade for them too.

  51. m December 27th, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    Another option is to go with Phil as the #5. Joba to the pen. And if and when Wang’s ready to go, he becomes the #5 and Phil goes to the bullpen. Phil, Joba, Mariano for the last 3-4 innings? Wang as your #5? Hoo-Ha!

  52. Joe X December 27th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    Start Hughes and put Joba in the pen. Give Wang a minor’s contract with realistic incentive goals. If he comes back mid-season, phase him in with Hughes eventually returning Hughes to the pen if Wang’s progress warants it. With Aceves, Hughes and Joba leading to Mo they’ll have the best pen since Mendosa, Stanton and Nelson. Wang had 3 terrific years and would fit in grear behind Lee in 2011.

  53. Zack December 27th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    Cant we just agree that Joba is a young pitcher and that we shouldnt panic that he doesnt have a Cy Young award before he turned 24? Cant we just agree that he had barely any minor league experience and was rushed to the majors and still learning how to pick.

    “I think most signs point to Joba having more success as a reliever than a starter”

    That’s true for every SP

  54. GeorgeInJax December 27th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    No disrespect to Andy, but I’m not sure he’ll make it through the entire season.

  55. Matt December 27th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    This is the season when Joba can show his real worth by reporting to Tampa with the early arrivals in about 3 weeks and finally get himself in true pitching condition.
    He needs to strengthen his legs to get more push from the mound.
    Going deep into games and getting economical with his pitches should be his full focus in 2010.
    Phil Hughes is always an early arrival. Both need to impress Girardi / Eiland in March and only one can be a starter.

  56. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    Wow. Just Wow. Where was this against the Patriots earlier this season? In the Super Bowl several years ago? Where was Joe Buck’s excitement in SB XLII after Tyree or Plaxico’s catch?

    Expect to see a couple penalties on the Panthers defense now, so the refs can make it seem like it was fair.

  57. m December 27th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    Zack,

    Yes, we can agree to that. Unfortunately, it seems that Joba has shown signs of immaturity as well.

    I hope he proves me wrong.

  58. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    This Giants game is just brutal. I give the front office credit for round up enough living players from the ’62-68 New york Mets to suit up for the game.

  59. GeorgeInJax December 27th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    A healthy CMW would be a nice addition to any team. If that happens sliding Hughes or Joba to the pen for a year might be ok, but hopefully in a different roles. If Phil is in the pen, I’d like to see him go more than one inning. In a long relief role he can learn more of his craft leading him back to starting. Joba is an animal when he is throwing all out for an inning or two.

  60. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    GeorgeinJax
    I am not saying I do not think Andy can hold up, because I believe he can, but if Joba and Phil can be dominant as starters in ST, why not attempt to leave them in the rotation and hold Andy out a little just for the sake of protecting him, whether or not he needs protection.

  61. kenneth Szwech December 27th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    I think Joba will be good in the rotation. If you look at his numbers, he was pitching very well for his first full year as a major league pitcher. From April until July his numbers were good, but when the Yankees started limiting his innings and altering the days he starts, his ERA skyrocketed.

  62. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    I cannot believe we are still running the ball.

    There needs to be some urgency now, and running the ball should not be an option.

  63. Bob December 27th, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    I have a friend who is a former major league pitching coach and I’ve talked to him about the Joba/Hughes situation. He believes that Joba should go to the pen, as he seemws to have a reliever’s mentality. When Joba starts, he seems to hold back in order to conserve his energy. I agree with him. Joba should beccome the 8th inning guy and perhaps eventually replace Mo.

  64. kenneth Szwech December 27th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    ERA’s by month:

    April: 3.13

    May: 4.84

    June: 3.79

    July: 2.73

    August: 8.22

    September: 7.15

  65. The Damon-ator December 27th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    they just spent the last year plus working Joba’s innings limits etc to stretch him out and all that jazz. cashman finally says Joba will no longer have an innings cap and they’re just going to move him to the pen? that would pretty much make all that innings finagling the past few years a waste. keep him in the rotation and let’s see how that plays out.

  66. PJ December 27th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    its funny cuz everyone is saying joba was terrible or not that good as a starter. i think alot of the retard fans are forgetting that it was his FIRST year as a starter and hes YOUNG i can sit here and name some good starters (santana halladay and lot others) who struggled there first year i mean for christ sakes halladay had a 12 something era. i love being a yankee fan but other yankee fans make me sick. if someone has one bad year they suck or should get traded. they want to sign every damn high caliber player( i do love having the money but damn not every every single high caliber player) and yankees fan exepect every single player to hit 300 25+hrs and 100rbis and if they dont they suck i mean damn how greedy and retarted can you be. yes out of joba n hughes i think joba should be in the pen but not because he cant be a good starter just because i dont like hughes as a set up guy. he did good last year but failed in the playoffs and he doesnt have that mentality like joba so every1 who says joba can never be a starter should never claim to be a yankee fan

  67. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    I know we need the FG (not technically because of 2 point conv.), but we are taking a FG!

    I guess no penalties came our way, prediction wrong!

  68. Tom B December 27th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    you guys and your “theories” are making this comment section unreadable.

  69. GeorgeInJax December 27th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    The tinkering with Joba backfired a bit.

    I think he has the makeup of a guy who has to be turned loose without thinking about those limitations.

    Both Phil & Joba are still young and developing neither is near their ceiling yet.

    Cashman has been holding on to them & protecting them for very good reasons. They should both be in the rotation for many years to come.

  70. m December 27th, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    IIRC, they kept changing the rules and the starts because Joba was struggling. He came back from Nebraska and had a few good starts, and then it went downhill. So they started skipping starts. They kept adjusting to him, thinking they could alleviate whatever was bothering him.

    At least that’s how I saw it.

  71. Nick in SF in Charlotte, NC December 27th, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    m, from the previous thread, I only parse words in the service of good. :)

    I’m surprised you would needlessly try to open up a second front.

  72. Al December 27th, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    I start Joba in the rotation. No innings cap this year, let him air it out. Start Phil in the bullpen. WHEN someone gets injured – Phil is first man up for the rotation.

    Burnett was injury-free last year, won’t happen again… Pettitte will be 38… Phil will hit 150+ IP and will make 20-25 starts.

  73. The Damon-ator December 27th, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    A person who is a Yankees fan + Cowboys fan = bandwagoner. do you like the lakers too?

  74. RhapsodyInBlue December 27th, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    CR9

    “Not winning a play-off game in a decade” almost sounds like the usual Red Sox rhetoric toward Yankee fans before this season, i.e, the Yankees have not won in this decade BS..

    Why should it bother me? This is an inconsistent Cowboy team that I don’t expect much from even if they do advance.
    I feel as long as J. Jones is the owner we’ll have to be content with “yes men” as head coaches like Wade Philips.

    I like Coughlin, he’s tough, he reminds me of Tom Landry. Giants will be back next season.

    Then again 5 SB victories, 8 appearances for the Cowboys is not too shabby.

  75. kenneth Szwech December 27th, 2009 at 2:57 pm

    I think that Joba will be a good starter, he was pulled up early and now is learning how to pitch. With Pettitte and C.C. showing him the ropes he will be very good in the next few years, and I am not worried. I think that to move back Joba in the ‘pen would defeat the purpose of last years “Joba Rules.”

    Let Hughes stay in the bullpen for now, because he was lights out. To be successful in NY he has to learn how to pitch in the post season, and I think he will, but it doesn’t matter if he is in the rotation as opposed to the bullpen. Phil will be fine in the future as well.

  76. m December 27th, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    Damon-ator,

    Yes, I like the Lakers, too. I live on an island, and I get to choose whatever team I like. And those are the teams I like!

  77. m December 27th, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    Nick,

    Happy Holidays to you, too!

  78. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2009 at 3:01 pm

    Nick in SF in Charlotte, NC
    December 27th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
    m, from the previous thread, I only parse words in the service of good.

    I’m surprised you would needlessly try to open up a second front.

    ————————————————————

    Could you call the “parse snips”?

  79. Nick in SF in Charlotte, NC December 27th, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    Does it go until MLK JR Day or Presidents Day?

  80. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2009 at 3:03 pm

    Could you call ***them***

  81. RhapsodyInBlue December 27th, 2009 at 3:03 pm

    The Damon-ator

    I’ve followed the Cowboys since 1964 after they drafted one of my boyhood idols Bob Hayes out of Florida A&M.

    Cowboys lost a few heart breakers to the Greenbay Packers in the mid 60s then to the Colts in their first Superbowl appearance, then twice to the great Steeler teams.

    I was hardly considered a band wagoner in those early days.

    Don’t be so quick to prejudge someone.

  82. RhapsodyInBlue December 27th, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    I am a suffering NY Knicks fan.

  83. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    No, 5 SB victories (the only number that matters) aint too shabby. Hopefully, the Boys can win the SB this year if the Giants are not involved, so they can extend their lead over the Patriots in SB victories to 3.

    It’s not the same rhetoric as Red Sox fans gave Yankees fans. The Yankees actually had chances to win, won playoff games, appeared in World Series.

    The Cowboys have not even won a playoff game.

    Anyway, good luck to the Cowboys (not Flozell Adams) the rest of the way, only if they do not lose tonight.

    I do not see much of a chance even if we miraculously make the playoffs, as Bill Sheridan is a bum. I am not sure how Sheridan still has a job, and I mean in this game. He should have been fired at halftime, and escorted out of Giants Stadium in handcuffs for trespassing.

    I like Coughlin, but it is his duty to fire this loser Sheridan. And the fact that he has not…..

  84. m December 27th, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    Until my birthday, or yours, whichever comes later.

  85. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    The holiday season ends on Elvis Presley’s birthday, January 8th.

  86. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 3:06 pm

    And here the Patriots are running up a score again, still passing.

    I guess they have not learned their lesson with karma, like 2007.

  87. Nick in SF in Charlotte, NC December 27th, 2009 at 3:07 pm

    My birthday is in October, so that’s the beginning of the Yankee holiday season.

  88. RhapsodyInBlue December 27th, 2009 at 3:07 pm

    Wouldn’t at all surprise me to see the Cowboys lose tonight, they are consistently inconsistent.

    Good luck next week in Minnesota.

  89. m December 27th, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    This isn’t Pop Warner. Teams don’t want the score to get out of hand, then score some points and play some D.

  90. m December 27th, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    You mean I gotta be nice to you until October? Ugh.

  91. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    No, after the Redskins disgraceful performance last week, there is no way they win tonight.

    Hopefully, for me, Minnesota next week still matters.

  92. Nick in SF in Charlotte, NC December 27th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    No, I mean you don’t have to start being nice to me *until* October. :)

  93. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    m

    Sorry, that’s not the way it works. Teams do not run up the score on other teams, out of respect and class.

    Then again, the Pats do not have respect for other teams or class, so let’s just leave it at that.

  94. lenNY's Yankees December 27th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    I agree with you Chad, but do you know when the decision will be made? I have a problem with them battling it out over spring training, and I posted about it on my blog.

  95. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    Nice site, Lenny.

    Wow. Wow. Did not go for 2, cannot even hold a snap. It’s a long way until baseball season.

    Nice to see the refs not even giving Bradshaw the facemask call!

  96. Alfred December 27th, 2009 at 3:23 pm

    Why is the weather like spring today, in the east coast. I swear global warming and the pollutants in our environment.

  97. blake December 27th, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    I agree with Chad on this one.

  98. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

    LMAO. That game’s just obscene.

  99. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    The big question is: Will Carolina allow the Giants to score a pity touchdown?

  100. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    For two months in 2008, before the shoulder injury, Joba showed that he can pitch like an elite starter. If his velocity returns and he can maintain it over the course of the game, he has to start.

    Under that scenario, Hughes should go to SWB so that he is stretched out and on pace to pitch a starter’s innings.

    If Joba can’t maintain his velo, and he can’t compensate through pitchablity, I would put him in the pen, and let Hughes start.

  101. vinny-b (NJ and Granderson - thank you Cashman!) December 27th, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    “Why is the weather like spring today, in the east coast. I swear global warming and the pollutants in our environment”
    —————————————————
    tongue in cheek?

  102. Paco Dooley December 27th, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    “Paco, unless Phil is the long-man, there is no way he can fill in for anyone as he wouldn’t be stretched out enough”

    I understand that, but I was imaging a scenario when a starter goes down and Phil is stretched out over a couple of week span to evolve back into a starter (much like they did when they stretched Joba back out late in the season, or guys like Aceves). But you are right, he won’t be the long-man (right? I mean, he would be an 8th inning guy again presumably) and so he wouldn’t be ready for a random spot start.

  103. Blue Bleeding December 27th, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    The Yankees won their final game at the old Stadium vs. the Orioles.
    The Giants will not win their final game at the Meadowlands.
    Even with miracles or help from other teams, the Giants would see all road games in the playoffs.

  104. vinny-b (NJ and Granderson - thank you Cashman!) December 27th, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    “No disrespect to Andy, but I’m not sure he’ll make it through the entire season”
    ———————————————–
    yes. He looked like he was washed up. In particularly, throughout the playoffs.

    you know, it is amazing how little love Pettitte receives compare to Jeter & Rivera. The most winningest pitcher in post-season history

    have never seen a tougher pitcher

  105. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    Not going to happen, but the Giants found themselves at home on the road in the SB XLII playoffs.

    I wonder if this Giants team has any pride whatsoever. Bill Sheridan has to be fired within the next 24 hours. He should have been fired 5 weeks ago.

  106. vinny-b (NJ and Granderson - thank you Cashman!) December 27th, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    lol

    I love the mike’d up fan. “YOU GUYS SUCK!”

  107. vinny-b (NJ and Granderson - thank you Cashman!) December 27th, 2009 at 3:49 pm

    dang i want to see that Baltimore game. (My 2nd fave team)

    20-20 tied up

  108. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    vinny-b (NJ and Granderson – thank you Cashman!)
    December 27th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
    “No disrespect to Andy, but I’m not sure he’ll make it through the entire season”
    ———————————————–
    yes. He looked like he was washed up. In particularly, throughout the playoffs.

    you know, it is amazing how little love Pettitte receives compare to Jeter & Rivera. The most winningest pitcher in post-season history

    have never seen a tougher pitcher

    ————————————————————

    8 wins short of 200 Yankee wins in 12 years, regardless of the team you play for is hard to top. Even Ford didn’t rack ‘em up that fast.

  109. RalphieD (OPPC) December 27th, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    guess the filter ate my nice long post on joba and hughes…oh well guess i gotta remember to copy everything before i hit submit

  110. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    The Giants don’t deserve to be in the playoffs.

  111. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    “Not going to happen, but the Giants found themselves at home on the road in the SB XLII playoffs”

    That was a Giants team with fortitude.

  112. Nick in SF in Charlotte, NC December 27th, 2009 at 3:55 pm

    Which Yankee pitchesr are guaranteed to make it through the entire season?

  113. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    “That was a Giants team with fortitude.”

    And health (I think a team builds fortitude with success). Most of their D line has not regained their form since offseason knee surgery, and their D backfield is decimated. That exposed their LBs.

    Plus Spags > Sheridan.

    And it’s time for a new OC.

  114. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    “Which Yankee pitchesr are guaranteed to make it through the entire season?”

    I assume your question is rhetorical.

  115. vinny-b (NJ and Granderson - thank you Cashman!) December 27th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    come’on Flacco

  116. Nick in SF in Charlotte, NC December 27th, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    Indeed.

  117. GreenBeret7 December 27th, 2009 at 4:09 pm

    Whoa!!! Tampa beat New Orleans in overtime. shocker.

  118. 7789 December 27th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    Joba should start next season and Hughes should be in the bullpen. What was the point of the yankees montoring his innings in august and septemeber if he wasn’t going to start next year?

    Joba doesn’t have much pitching experience and he has been a much better starter than Hughes. There will be no more innings restrictions on Joba anymore. Hughes tired out in the postseason. Even Girardi said Joba is more prepared to start a fullseason than Hughes.

    It is a no brainer to me Hughes should spend one more year in the bullpen. And lets see what Joba can do as a normal starter (180-190ip) before people make a decision if he should be in the bullpen.

  119. Mike Mineo December 27th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    I agree with you Chad. Joba has not shown nearly enough in comparison to Hughes.

    just like I think Joba can be a better reliever than Hughes, Hughes has the tools to be a front-line starter.

    I think by the end of 2010 we might be saying Hughes is the best #5 starter in baseball.

    Pettitte and Burnett are injury-prone so either Aceves or Joba will see starting time eventually, but I would be shocked if Hughes did not start out the season in the rotation.

  120. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 4:19 pm

    Aceves isn’t a ML starter.

  121. RalphieD (OPPC) December 27th, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    “I agree with you Chad. Joba has not shown nearly enough in comparison to Hughes.”

    where has he said that? joba has shown much more than hughes as a starter..

  122. Dr Mustard December 27th, 2009 at 4:35 pm

    Joba is rubbish as a starter

    Works too slow, No velocity, Early high pitch counts

    Joba belongs in the pen

  123. RalphieD (OPPC) December 27th, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    “Joba is rubbish as a starter

    Works too slow, No velocity, Early high pitch counts

    Joba belongs in the pen”

    yea i bet you were saying that in 2008 before he got hurt righT?

  124. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 4:43 pm

    Rich
    Yep. Injuries depleted our defense, offensive line, plus Sheridan and Gilbride are not a good combination. Also, the team was not mentally focused every game, like is supposed to be the case under Coughlin.

    If the Cowboys do not lose tonight, it’s time to move on to next year.

    Sit out Eli next game and anybody with injuries.

  125. DaSaint007 December 27th, 2009 at 4:46 pm

    The Giants embarassed themselves.

    Whomever performs better in ST should be the #5 starter. The other goes to the pen. But what happens if both of them gets outperformed by someone else?

  126. rover December 27th, 2009 at 4:50 pm

    “No disrespect to Andy, but I’m not sure he’ll make it through the entire season”
    ________________________________________________

    No disrespect to Cc Aj Andy,Jv and #5 but i’m not certain all of them are going to make it through the entire season.

  127. King Joba December 27th, 2009 at 4:55 pm

    If the Yankees really want to keep payroll down, they will have to develop their own young, less expensive starting pitchers. At this point its Joba and Hughes and it is Cashman’s plan to develop both as starters. That means, IF Joba shows up to ST and shows he can be the starter they need, Hughes will go down to AAA to stretch out.

    It would not be a suprise that Hughes has “rules” that will limit his innings this year.

    Vazquez and Pettite will be gone next year, Cliff Lee and Hughes will take their place and keep the Yankees within budget.

  128. GeorgeInJax December 27th, 2009 at 4:55 pm

    Rover;
    that’s typical of most MLB teams. The starting rotation at the end of the season is usually different from the rotation out of spring training.

    We are lucky to have nice depth at starters with Joba/Phil, Aceves, Gaudin, Mitre, and potentially a wang signing

  129. go figure December 27th, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    The last game at Giants Stadium is next Sunday when the Jets face the Cincinnati Bengals.

  130. JMK aka The Overshare December 27th, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    Jobas a reliever

  131. thisguy December 27th, 2009 at 5:16 pm

    king joba,

    as long as the bullpen does it’s job, that is the plan the yanks will probably be hoping works out.

  132. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 5:17 pm

    Paco, the Yankees can’t do that with Phil – short man in the pen, stretch him out (first off, it would take a few weeks to stretch him out, by then the injured pitcher would probably be ok – unless it’s serious), start him, then back to the pen. Talk about screwing with his arm. They’ve not handled this kid very well – he’s not a baby anymore, he’s going to pitch next year at age 24. IMO, he’s either the long man or he’s in AAA

  133. Phil the Thrill December 27th, 2009 at 5:19 pm

    Joba in the rotation, Phil in relief, but with a two or three game minimum. Stretch them both out in ST.

  134. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 5:20 pm

    I do not get why so many want to keep Phil in the pen, like it’s no big deal if he wastes another year as a short man.

  135. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 5:22 pm

    Phil, what do you mean “with a two or three game minimum”?

  136. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 5:26 pm

    “Phil, what do you mean “with a two or three game minimum”?”

    Good question. I’m only familiar with the two or three drink minimum.

  137. Ant928 December 27th, 2009 at 5:27 pm

    I know this usually gets laughed at but under the circumstances…six man rotation?

    Discuss!

  138. m December 27th, 2009 at 5:29 pm

    I’ll bring up the idea I thought they should’ve used last season.

    Hughes for 5 innings, Joba for 4. Hopefully the bullpen gets to rest on that day. :P

  139. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 5:32 pm

    “I know this usually gets laughed at but under the circumstances…six man rotation?”

    1) Pitchers are creatures of habit. Messing with the days between starts can be a bigger issue than it seems.

    2) You really want to take 7-8 starts a year from Sabathia?

    3) If you go with a six man, inevitably someone gets injured and you’re stuck starting guys like Aceves, who simply aren’t up to the task at this level.

  140. DaSaint007 December 27th, 2009 at 5:34 pm

    m,

    I too brought up that scenario last year on another blog as a way for them both to pitch significant innings. They could alternate who could start as necessary. Very unconventional thinking, so it probably wouldn’t happen.

  141. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 5:36 pm

    “I too brought up that scenario last year on another blog as a way for them both to pitch significant innings. They could alternate who could start as necessary. Very unconventional thinking, so it probably wouldn’t happen.”

    Who does it help? 1 guy gets 150 innings while the other gets 120….if they last their 4-5 innings.

  142. ortforshort December 27th, 2009 at 5:41 pm

    After reading the comments above, I guess no one has noticed that neither Chamberlain or Hughes has been successful at the big league level as a starter. There apparently is a plan, wishful thinking may be another way of putting it, that these two will be successful starters for the Yankees some day. Maybe they won’t. They probably won’t in 2010 based on what they did last year. If they fail again, and if a 38 year old Pettitte or an injury-prone Burnett goes down, then the Yankees are back to scrambling around for schlocks mid-seasons to fill out the back end of their rotation – as has happened every year for the last five. Not only that, if the Yankees are battling the Blue Jays to stay out of fourth place at that time, you might find that Cashman will be forced to trade Hughes or Chamberlain and maybe Montero for a, say, Zambrano just to stay in the race. Wouldn’t it be better to have a veteran rotation in place and work these two in when they’re ready instead of handing them the keys to the car, once again, and watching them drive it into a ditch, once again?

  143. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 5:43 pm

    “Not only that, if the Yankees are battling the Blue Jays to stay out of fourth place at that time, you might find that Cashman will be forced to trade Hughes or Chamberlain and maybe Montero for a, say, Zambrano just to stay in the race.”

    Jeez Louise!!!

  144. thisguy December 27th, 2009 at 5:48 pm

    how would you ever know they are ready if you never pitch them and let them grow as pitchers?

    people have to realize, if they want the yankees to develop players, they are going to go through growing pains, and dare i say, some unsuccessful seasons.

  145. RhapsodyInBlue December 27th, 2009 at 5:53 pm

    ortforshort

    knows as much about the Yankee’s pitching depth, what they currently have at the farm level as any Sox troll would.

  146. Anthony December 27th, 2009 at 5:53 pm

    Boy, I never thought I would say I miss Pete Abe, but as annoying and snarky as he could be, he actually had some decent analysis. Tell me why they would have Joba not in the rotation and waste the whole year of stretching out his innings limits? Hughes will find his way into the rotation eventually, but you have to give Joba a chance to show what he can do with no innings limits this year. Knowing that he doesn’t have to conserve his stuff and the competition knowing that they can’t just wait him out because of the limits means that Joba could be a completely different and more consistent starter this year. I don’t think they’re going to waste his 2009 for nothing. He can always move back if it doesn’t work out. Once AJ or Pettitte get injured, Hughes will get his starts and he’ll be in the rotation in 2011 to start the season.

  147. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 5:55 pm

    “knows as much about the Yankee’s pitching depth, what they currently have at the farm level as any Sox troll would.”

    Don’t think there’s as much as many like to believe, but the scenario he drew out was nonetheless ridiculous.

  148. m December 27th, 2009 at 6:00 pm

    Pete would put Joba in the bullpen, too.

    As far as our depth is concerned this is it:

    6. Hughes
    7. Aceves
    8. Gaudin
    9. Mitre
    10.AAA staff

  149. RhapsodyInBlue December 27th, 2009 at 6:00 pm

    Unless we have injuries there is a numbers problem not only with Hughes or Chamberlain but also where to plug in Mitre and Gaudin.

    Suppose Nova picks up right where he left off and McAllister continues to improve, to name just a few. We have depth we didn’t have in previous seasons.

  150. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 6:04 pm

    “6. Hughes
    7. Aceves
    8. Gaudin
    9. Mitre
    10.AAA staff”

    I’d be okay with 6 and 8. After that, it’s less than ordinary.

  151. DaSaint007 December 27th, 2009 at 6:05 pm

    Either Hughes or Joba, and eventually both, can be effective ML starters, whether this year or going forward. Regardless, Cashman has built-in depth by retaining Gaudin and Aceves on the roster, as well as Mitre, though I personally don’t consider him effective, nor do I think that all three will be on the 25-man roster come opening day.

    That said, it would not surprise me if Cash continued to work to sign Wang to an incentive-laden contract, as it’s been reported that he would be able to contribute later in the season. Having a former 19-game winner as potential rotation depth could come in handy.

  152. DaSaint007 December 27th, 2009 at 6:06 pm

    How someone could choose Gaudin over Aceves is beyond me.

  153. RhapsodyInBlue December 27th, 2009 at 6:09 pm

    Personally from I’ve seen of Aceves I tend to think he will nothing more then a situational pen guy used for particular match-ups.

    The more I see of the guy fail in critical situations the less impressed of him I am.

  154. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 27th, 2009 at 6:11 pm

    Cash has been quoted as saying there will not be a six-man rotation; then again, Cash has been quoted saying many things that turned out to be not quite so.

    My gut feeling is that Joba should start as the 5th man in the rotation, with Phil Hughes starting the season in AAA in order to control his innings AND to work on his secondary (and tertiary and quadruciary -?-) pitches.

    However, in telling both pitchers to show up to spring traing for a show-down, I’m hoping it’s a difficult decision on what to do with whom.

    Would the Yankees have the courage to send Joba to AAA if Hughes beats him out (or just ekes him out) of the 5th spot? Because, if what they have in mind is for whichever of them doesn’t make the starting rotation to be able to fit into the rotation to take over for an injured or resting pitcher, then the guy needs to be stretched out. One would hope that they Yankees have learned that it is a waste of time and talent to have a guy in the pen and THEN try to stretch him out to start.

    So, I think they’d have the guts to put Hughes in the minors to start the season, because Phil, as well as he did as a relief guy last season, really looks better to me as a starter. But do they have the guts to do the same with Joba, who really has a personality transformation when he relieves?

    It should be interesting, and there’s no easy answer and not one correct answer to this.

    It is too bad Joba didn’t take the bull by the horns last year. I do understand that possibly his shoulder wasn’t 100%, but I also think he was not in the best of shape. He could have written his own destiny, but did not. And so we have this saga for yet another season. If Joba had done what Joba is definitely capable of doing…well, there’d be no need for a Javy Vazquez. Which really is only a money thing.

  155. RhapsodyInBlue December 27th, 2009 at 6:12 pm

    I actually have not seen enough of Gaudin to have an opinion of him. Maybe he won’t work out, I just haven’t seen enough of him to evaluate whether he will or not.

    Small sample size in the ALE up to this point.

  156. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 6:16 pm

    David Tyree

  157. yanksfan7788 December 27th, 2009 at 6:26 pm

    Phil starting Joba in the pen. Phil works harder then joba and he listens to others.

  158. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 6:26 pm

    WoooooHooooo

    The Jets have a shot.

    I wonder if the Colts will put Peyton back in.

  159. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 6:33 pm

    Oh, man, if that was a pick 6 against Painter, the Colts could have Freed Willy!

    If I am the Jets right here, I do not allow Mark Sanchez to cost you the game. You have gotten lead, and you have a pee wee league QB in the game. Just do not give away field position or the lead.

  160. Joe from Long Island December 27th, 2009 at 6:34 pm

    Doreen –

    1. I don’t think either Joba or Phil is going to AAA – they’re two of the best pitchers in the organization. The only question is starter or reliever. If Joba had done better last season, then Vazquez wouldn’t have been necessary, but the situation is what it is. Ultimately, I think both are going to be starters for the Yankees, whether it’s this year or next.

    2. I hope you and your family had a very good Christmas. I just got back from Philadelphia, seeing my wife’s family and having a second Christmas dinner. They’re a unique bunch, it’s a good thing they’re a loving group, and for some unknown reason they like me. Thank goodness! :)

  161. Stan December 27th, 2009 at 6:39 pm

    This is the age of pitchers seldom throwing more than 8 innings, controlled pitch counts, and closely monitered by pitching coaches.
    Depending on the schedules, possible game postponements, or injuries, a 5th starter has to be the most flexible of the starting rotation with his between start regimen unless the schedule gets extremely crowded.
    There’s no such a thing as a 6th starter. He’s otherwise known as a long reliever or emergency starter.

  162. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 6:39 pm

    That was an excellent pass interference on the Colts, and had that been randy moSS, it would have been called as such.

  163. Abe Peterham December 27th, 2009 at 6:40 pm

    Joba pen!

  164. EricNS December 27th, 2009 at 6:43 pm

    Agreed – Hughes is better as a starter than Joba

  165. Erica - always OPPC - Bring Johnny Back!!! December 27th, 2009 at 6:49 pm

    EricNS
    December 27th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
    Agreed – Hughes is better as a starter than Joba

    ********

    I tend to lean in this direction too. However, I have one major concern. Hughes is no longer stretched out and I don’t know if I have the stomach to go thru another season where they give him “three inning starts” so that they can watch some imaginary innings limit.

    Whew- too much baseball talking for me. Ladies of LoHud, are you aware the big semi-annual Bath and Body Works sale started today??????

  166. Roberto for Paul December 27th, 2009 at 6:55 pm

    not sure where people get the idea that hughes is a better starter than joba- why? because of his first start where he pulled the hammy? hasn’t joba shown much more as a starter than phil?

    I’m of the mind that you start hughes in aaa- control his innings and allow him to start. Then, you evaluate either a) when there is an injury or b) come mid-may june when you see how the pen is shaking out. Teams need more than 5 starters every year and with the hopeful emergence of marte/robertson you could have a great scenario in 2011 with hughes joba both ready to be full time starters and then you have aj cc joba hughes with a big ticket free agent pitcher taking over for javy/pettitte and slotting in below their 24 million price tag-

  167. Cameron December 27th, 2009 at 6:56 pm

    ortforshort

    Guess how old Jamie Moyer pitcher for the Phillies is right now? He’s 48, Andy will be fine!

    Yankees will win the the division too!!

  168. Bret the Hitman December 27th, 2009 at 6:58 pm

    We need to add more catching depth. Only 4 of our top 10 prospects are catchers.

    If we convert both Phil and Joba to catcher maybe we get to the elusive 60% mark.

  169. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 6:59 pm

    What the Colts are doing here is a disgrace. Giving up like this will come back to haunt them.
    less than 10 seconds ago from TweetDeck

    Pete Abe Twitter

    As opposed to what the Patriots did in 2007. That came back to haunt them!!!!

    Wishful thinking, waaa waaaaa, Peter.

  170. blake December 27th, 2009 at 7:02 pm

    I don’t think either of them are going to AAA. As Chad said it will be too tempting to put one of them in the pen because they will be needed out there. The bullpen is thin and they aren’t going to spend money to add to it when they have a better option available for nothing.. I think Hughes needs to be in the rotation and Joba in the pen shadowing Riveras every move…

  171. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 7:03 pm

    WoooooooHoooooooo

    Painter!!!

    We Painted him into a corner, and he could not Paint his way out!!!!!!

  172. Bret the Hitman December 27th, 2009 at 7:04 pm

    BA top 10

    TOP TEN
    PROSPECTS
    1. Jesus Montero, c
    2. Austin Romine, c
    3. Arodys Vizcaino, rhp
    4. Slade Heathcott, of
    5. Zach McAllister, rhp
    6. Manny Banuelos, lhp
    7. Gary Sanchez, c
    8. J.R. Murphy, c
    9. Jeremy Bleich, lhp
    10. Andrew Brackman, rhp

    BP Top 10

    Five-Star Prospects
    1. Jesus Montero, C
    Four-Star Prospects
    2. Arodys Vizcaino, RHP
    Three-Star Prospects
    3. Manny Banuelos, LHP
    4. Zach McAllister, RHP
    5. Austin Romine, C
    6. Gary Sanchez, C
    7. Slade Heathcott, CF
    8. Kelvin De Leon, RF
    9. J.R. (John) Murphy, C
    10. Mark Melancon, RHP

  173. Bret the Hitman December 27th, 2009 at 7:06 pm

    No Dellin Betances

  174. get it right please! December 27th, 2009 at 7:07 pm

    ~Phil did start last year, and was bad. When moved to out of the rotation and into the pen, he said that as long as he was still considered a starter, he would go to the pen, because anything was better than AAA. Did you guys forget?

    ~He has earned the right to start in 2010, if not he’ll never come close to 200 plus innings necessary for starters. I say give him the start.

  175. DaSaint007 December 27th, 2009 at 7:08 pm

    Good info Bret. Thx.

  176. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 27th, 2009 at 7:09 pm

    Joe from Long Island -

    Thanks. We had a good Christmas. Today was a wind-down day. I’m glad you had a nice Christmas, too.

    I never feel very comfortable talking about what the Yankees pitching picture should look like – more flying off the cuff than anything else.

    I agree that Joba and Phil are both too good for AAA, but I hate to see either one of them out of the bullpen.

    Then again, people with a whole lot better baseball minds and experience will be making this decision. :)

    Off-topic – I bought myself one of those turntables that digitalize LPs, and I spent a part of the day exporting my old Barbra Streisand albums to my iTunes library. What fun!!! I forgot how much I enjoyed singing to her music. (I did 3 today – Broadway Album, Superman and A Star Is Born. I’ve got about 8 more to go!)

  177. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 27th, 2009 at 7:11 pm

    blake -

    But Joba is so different from Mariano personality-wise. He could follow him from now to the end of time, and he will never be him.

    Which is not to say he couldn’t be a good closer in his own right.

    But that’s assuming the Yankees want him to be a closer…

  178. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 27th, 2009 at 7:14 pm

    Um -

    Get It Right -

    Follow your own advice. :)

    Hughes had ONE really poor start. He also had a couple of pretty good ones and one GREAT one, where Girardi took him out and Hughes was on a roll and could probably have finished the game.

    You are correct that Hughes himself wanted to stay in the ML and preferred the pen to going back to AAA. It turned out well, didn’t it? :)

    But I think if things turned out differently, Hughes would have had a great year as a starter.

  179. DaSaint007 December 27th, 2009 at 7:16 pm

    I love how our fans give up on young players who struggle. Yet those same fans would love to pick up a David Price or Justin Verlander irrespective of their struggles, yet trade or place ours in the bullpen.

    Just for info’s sake:
    In 2005 Verlander was 0-2, with a 7.15 ERA. Would NY fans have given him a chance in 2006? Well in 2006 he was 17-6 3.63 ERA, then in 2007 he was 18-6 3.66 ERA, then in 2008 he was 11-17 4.84 ERA. This is about where Yankee fans would have called for trading him. Yet, in 2009 he bounced back and was 19-9 3.45 ERA – at age 26.

    David Price:
    2008 0-0 1.93 ERA in 5 games, only 1 of which was a start. This is where we call for him to be in the bullpen.

    2009 10-7 4.42 ERA at age 23, with 23 starts. Glad he wasn’t a Yankee as we would have called for him to be in the pen.

    Point is these kids need time to develop. All are more valuable as starters. Give them a full season, and they’ll be productive major league starters. Patience is difficult to come by for us Yankee fans, but come on!

  180. blake December 27th, 2009 at 7:17 pm

    Doreen, nobody will ever be Mo. He’s once in a lifetime.. I think Joba is better suited to be a closer than a starter, much like Papelbon was. The sox tried to go back to starting Papelbon but closing just felt right with him.. I could be completely wrong but if Joba ends up in the pen this year then he could learn a lot from watching how Rivera prepares and goes about his business. That doesn’t mean he will be Rivera but it certainly couldn’t hurt.

  181. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 7:19 pm

    “No Dellin Betances”

    Maybe he slides in with Vizcaino now in the Braves org?

  182. blake December 27th, 2009 at 7:20 pm

    Dasaint, saying that you feel a guy is better suited for the bullpen isn’t giving up on them. Did the red sox give up on Papelbon? its just an opinion..

  183. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 7:20 pm

    Interesting 1st round for the Jets. They’ll either play NE or the Bengals for a 2nd week in a row.

  184. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 7:21 pm

    Well, should they get there.

    No putting the cart before the horse.

  185. get it right please! December 27th, 2009 at 7:23 pm

    Doreen?

    Hughes fizzled out in postseason, Mo had to pretty much carry the pen.

  186. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 7:24 pm

    “Hughes fizzled out in postseason, Mo had to pretty much carry the pen.”

    Damaso Marte says hey.

  187. DaSaint007 December 27th, 2009 at 7:27 pm

    Hey blake, I understand your point, and I wasn’t directing that post at anyone in particular. Just saying that many have opined that one or the other should be traded or buried as a setup man for god-knows how many years, just based on their short careers thus far.

    From a value perspective, both are much more valuable to the team as starters, as quality starters are worth upwards of $15MM annually. Bullpen guys, on the other hand, are not. Setup men, in particular are a dime-a-dozen, and as far as starters are concerned, unless your name is Mo, Papelbon or Nathan, you’re not getting $12+MM year.

    Both of these guys should be given every opportunity over the next 2 seasons to become solid starters, as placing them in the pen defeats the purpose of developing affordable, effective, starting rotation talent. If after full seasons of opportunity that doesn’t work, then other options could be considered.

  188. get it right please! December 27th, 2009 at 7:29 pm

    Besides Mo, Marte and Robertson (who wasn’t used enough) carried their weight.

  189. Joba in the pen December 27th, 2009 at 7:33 pm

    Cashman said Joba and Hughes will compete for a spot in the rotation, loser to the pen.
    I like Hughes as a starter, but he will have the Hughes rules.
    Joba seems to me to be a madman as a reliever, comes in and blows batters away. As a starter he nibbles too much, shakes off his catcher.

  190. sal December 27th, 2009 at 7:33 pm

    Hughes pitched a total of 105.1 major league innings as well as 19.2 AAA innings in 2009 giving him a grand total of 125 IP – HUghes limit will be somewhere between 160-175 IP.

  191. thisguy December 27th, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    thank you dasaint.

  192. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 27th, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    Get it Right -

    Yes. Hughes had trouble in the post season. For me, that does not cancel out all the good pitching he did during the course of the season. If not for his good pitching out the bullpen, who knows where the Yankees end up, for one.

    I certainly wish he’d done better, but, you could chalk it up to just petering out, or a small slump (stuff happens, ya know?).

    And Marte sure stepped it up didn’t he?

    All this really says is that depth is the most important thing to have, because anyone at anytime could need a pick-up.

  193. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 27th, 2009 at 7:38 pm

    Good to see a lot of people stick up for Marte! (And Robertson!)

  194. Rose December 27th, 2009 at 7:39 pm

    “Both of these guys should be given every opportunity over the next 2 seasons to become solid starters, as placing them in the pen defeats the purpose of developing affordable, effective, starting rotation talent. If after full seasons of opportunity that doesn’t work, then other options could be considered.”

    Will the Yankees show enough patience with Phil and Joba as starters over the next 2 seasons? This is a team expecting to go to the World Series every year.

  195. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 27th, 2009 at 7:40 pm

    DaSaint -

    I agree with your opinion about the value of developing both Hughes and Chamberlain as starters. It’s just a question of how it is done.

  196. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 27th, 2009 at 7:42 pm

    Rose -

    It will depend on what the other starters are able to do. Also, as long as there is no melt down (Kennedy & Hughes in 2008), it’s more a matter of the team’s patience. We all know the fans have about as much patience as a gnat. (In general – I realize there are some fans who are patient).

  197. Matt December 27th, 2009 at 7:46 pm

    It can’t be expected that Joba will ever have the cool mound demeanor of Mariano. Two completely different personalities.
    Mariano hasn’t changed in the slightest degree with his approach from the warmups in the bullpen to throwing his first pitch. It’s a strong part of his arsenal along with the devastating cutter.
    Joba is borderline hyper.

  198. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 7:46 pm

    “I agree with your opinion about the value of developing both Hughes and Chamberlain as starters. It’s just a question of how it is done.”

    What I wonder is when is a line drawn? 2011 will be the 5th MLB season for both guys and at least one of them will likely not have established themselves as a legit MLB starter. Some is due to injury. Some ineffectiveness. Some just plain circumstance. Not an indictment of either guy, just wondering how long before the organization determines one guy or another is not going to be a starter.

  199. pat December 27th, 2009 at 7:46 pm

    Finally cleared out all the visitors and family obligations from the schedule and settling back into routine. Yeah!

    Torre, O’Neill/Hawkins and Joba to the pen debates- throwback weekend on the LoHud Blog?

  200. blake December 27th, 2009 at 7:54 pm

    DaSaint, valid points you make and yes they both would be more valuable as starters. I think one of them will have to be in the pen next year though if for no other reason because they will need them. Having two young talented pitchers is a good problem to have.

  201. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 7:55 pm

    Mo and Joba having disparate demeanors does not mean that they don’t both thive equally on circumstances that a closer typically faces. I think it’s safe to say that both guys thrive on those late inning situations. Joba has even demonstrated Mo’s unique ability to bounce back after a bad outing (recall the Delucci chronicles).

  202. CB December 27th, 2009 at 7:56 pm

    It is critical that whatever the yankees do, they make sure that they balance the need to win this year while also maximizing the probability that both Joba and Hughes are starters.

    Starting pitching is what is of the greatest value and its the commodity that is by far hardest to obtain.

    Jose Valverde is still trying to sniff an offer. Jason Marquis has already signed.

    Every season for the past few years the mets got through the same song and dance.

    Their bull pen collapses during the final third of the season. The media and fans go nuts about the bull pen and wring their hands about the manager’s “strategy” and “handling of the bull pen.”

    Then every winter Omar goes out and focuses on “fixing the pen.” Last year it was K-Rod and Putz. This year the Mets only activity was to sign two relievers – Igarashi and Escobar. Remarkably – Omar gave Escobar a major league deal despite the fact that he’s thrown 5 major league innings over the past two season.

    Rinse and repeat. It’s the same thing over and over.

    And what the Mets as an organization and Omar in particular don’t seem to understand is that the fundamental asset a “good” bull pen has is a strong starting rotation.

    Unless you have the starters, no bull pen is going to hold up over the course of a season no matter how good it is.

    Hughes and Joba are both 2 of the teams top 12 pitchers. But if one of them needs to go down to AAA for part of the season to stay stretched out and/or work on their games then that what the team should do.

    The 5 man rotation isn’t going to hold up and a 6th starter will be needed. One of the biggest advantages the yankees have over the Sox and Rays isn’t that Vazquez is their 4th starter – it’s that either Hughes or Chamberlain is their 6th starter. If they go to the pen and aren’t stretched out the team is going to wind up again with Sergio Mitre, etc. as a 5th starter once someone gets hurt.

    There is no reason why they can’t have Dave Robertson be the set up guy. He was terrific last year in late inning and high leverage situations.

  203. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 7:56 pm

    If the Yankees keep Phil in the pen (especially as a short man), they’d better have patience with him in 2011. If they care about his future as a starter (and, if he’s good/very good, that helps the Yankees immensely), they’ll avoid making him the short man at all costs. Either way, Phil is getting his shot no later than 2011 (though if he doesn’t start at all this year, they can’t possibly expect much more than #5 starter type performances from him; forget how many years he’s been in the big leagues – Phil just hasn’t had that many opportunities to start due to injuries/circumstances)

  204. get it right please! December 27th, 2009 at 8:00 pm

    Doreen

    Hughes has a little over 100 innings pitched on his arm.He will be heavily RULED like Joba was.

  205. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 8:00 pm

    CB, that’s what I’ve been saying all along……I would be really disappointed if Cash makes Phil the set up man again. I believe he’s way too smart for that. Fortunately, he did mention AAA as a possibility (hopefully he was serious about that) as well as D-Rob for set up man. Of course, if Robertson has a terrible spring, now what do you do? IMO, Phil must either be the #5 or in AAA. I’m assuming Joba wins the spot. I’m also more concerned about Phil because he’s already wasted a year of development in the pen after missing 2 years due to injuries.

  206. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 27th, 2009 at 8:01 pm

    CB -

    Thank you.

    You are always able to say what I’m thinking in a much more precise way.

    :)

  207. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 27th, 2009 at 8:02 pm

    Get it Right -

    I don’t understand why you’re telling me that.

  208. Phil the Thrill December 27th, 2009 at 8:04 pm

    I meant two or three inning min above. Had the family here and everyone was asking me stuff.

  209. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 8:04 pm

    Not sure I’m entirely ready to trust Robertson and his 5 walks per 9 as a set up guy. Like the strikeouts, but I think 40+ solid innings doesn’t yet prove he should be trusted with the job.

  210. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 27th, 2009 at 8:05 pm

    Betsy -

    I think you and I are on the same page regarding Joba as #5, Phil as the #6 waiting in AAA – to get in the innings and work on his repertoire.

    If they are serious about Joba as a starter, then if Hughes blows everyone away and wins the #5 spot in ST, I hope the Yankees will allow Joba to get his work in as a starter in AAA. I know this is not a popular stance.

  211. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 8:09 pm

    Phil, if he’s not in AAA, then that’s the way I see it. They can’t be stupid enough to make him the set up man….although, Phil could pitch 2/3 innings leading to Mo. The problem is, if the starters give 6 or7 innings, when is Phil going to pitch 2/3 innings?

  212. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 8:10 pm

    Doreeen, I’d rather Phil as the #5, to be honest…….

  213. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 8:11 pm

    However, Doreen – yes, we are in agreement otherwise.

  214. blake December 27th, 2009 at 8:13 pm

    I just can’t see Joba or Hughes spending any significant time in AAA when they could be helping the big league roster.

  215. get it right please! December 27th, 2009 at 8:13 pm

    Doreen

    Phil can’t go from 105 innings to 200 innings in 1 season, unless you want to ruin his arm, that’s all I’m saying.
    I really like them both, but they were rushed through AAA too fast!

  216. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 8:13 pm

    We don’t know if it was Cashman or Girardi or both will make the decision on Phil’s role.

  217. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 8:15 pm

    “Phil can’t go from 105 innings to 200 innings in 1 season, unless you want to ruin his arm, that’s all I’m saying.”

    He’s thrown as many as 146 in a pro season. He can probably go a buck seventy if needed. That’s about what a 5th starter will normally get you.

  218. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 8:16 pm

    It’s not just about Phil’s innings, it’s about the stress of his outings.

  219. ortforshort December 27th, 2009 at 8:17 pm

    The Kansas City Royals, Pittsburgh Pirates, Washington Nationals have the ability to be patient with young pitchers as they screw up in the big leagues. Contenders don’t. I don’t recall mentioning that I’ve given up on Hughes and Chamberlain. I do recall mentioning that they’ve failed as starters thus far. As a contender, you can’t afford to count on unproven pitchers in your rotation. If it was me, I’d get another solid veteran starter, maybe two (e.g. Bedard and Wang) if they’ve got health question marks. Neither one should be that expensive. At least, when healthy, they’ve proven they can win in the big leagues. Chamberlain and Hughes haven’t proven anything as starters. Put them in the pen, when the opportunity arises for them to get a shot at starting and keep them in there once they’ve proven that they can win as starters. It’s more prudent than what the Yankees have been doing the last few years – wishfully thinking that these guys are ready, watching them blow up and then filling in the rotation with schlocks.

  220. CB December 27th, 2009 at 8:17 pm

    Last year the yankees top 4 averaged 33 starts a person and around 6 2/3 innings per start.

    So from the top 4 the yankees are probably going to get 26-28 innings per turn through the 5 man rotation.

    Let’s say that the number 5 starter only gives them 5 innings on average.

    That would mean that each time through the rotation the starters would be giving them 31-34 innings per turn on average.

    There’s only 45 innings to pitch – maximum per each 5 game turn.

    So at best the yankees bull pen will likely only need to throw 11-14 innings per each turn.

    Mo will throw 2-3 of those innings.

    That’s going to leave on average 9-11 innings for the rest of the pen to throw on average per each turn through the rotation.

    9-11 innings for 6 pitchers.

    And that’s assuming that the 5th starter only gives them 5 innings per start.

    There simply aren’t going to be very many innings for the pen to throw on average.

    A pen of Robertson, Marte, Aceves, Gaudin, etc. will be fine to given them that number of innings.

    The primary threat to the yankees pitching this upcoming season is an injury to a starter. That’s what could make the staff provide less innings and expose the pen more.

    And the best way to make sure that doesn’t happen is to make sure either Phil or Joba are stretched out so that they can step into the rotation when needed.

    And a 6th starter will be needed. It’s not a matter of if – it’s only a matter of when.

  221. Jeff NJ December 27th, 2009 at 8:17 pm

    Repost from two days ago:

    Ok I’ll wade in the dirty waters of Joba/Hughes. I think they should start the season with Joba in the rotation and Hughes in the pen.

    If someone gets hurt or we get to around June 15th, I stretch out Phil to get him into the rotation to get his innings up. Someone will get hurt and Phil will be needed, the key is back load his innings. Worst (best) case scenario all 5 starters stay healthy and Hughes starts in AAA after June 15th ready to fill in when necessary.

    Come the playoffs, if the top 4 starters are healthy then Joba and Phil will find themselves back in the pen anyway, kinda like how in the NBA you play 9 or 10 guys all season and then come the playoffs you cut down the rotation to 7 or 8. For the next few years, Joba and Phil are relievers come the postseason.

    So Joba starts all year until the postseason, Phil relieves for 2 months and then starts the rest of the year, even if it means in AAA to get those innings up.

  222. blake December 27th, 2009 at 8:22 pm

    CB, so who would you send down if thats what they decide to do? I think AAA would help Joba much more than it would Hughes. Hughes destroys AAA every time he is sent down, the next step for him is learning at the big league level how to get hitters out.

  223. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 8:22 pm

    “Ok I’ll wade in the dirty waters of Joba/Hughes. I think they should start the season with Joba in the rotation and Hughes in the pen.”

    The problem with your conclusion that if that it fails to take into account how they are pitching in ST, whether or not one or both of refined a pitch or two, and perhaps most importantly, whether or not Joba has the arm strength of 2008 or that of 2009.

  224. Doreen December 27th, 2009 at 8:23 pm

    Get it Right -

    I never said I expected Hughes to pitch a full season or not to have his innings managed in some way.

  225. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 8:25 pm

    ” I think AAA would help Joba much more than it would Hughes.”

    That’s a secondary consideration. The central inquiry is which pitcher demonstrates in ST that he is more likely to be the most effective and consistent starter.

  226. Doreen December 27th, 2009 at 8:25 pm

    Betsy -

    It goes without saying that I understand your first preference is Hughes #5. :lol:

  227. blake December 27th, 2009 at 8:29 pm

    Rich, I don’t know if they will be able to completely determine that in a few ST starts. I think they must have some idea what they want to do going in. A lot of it will probably depend on what shape Joba shows up in.

  228. get it right please! December 27th, 2009 at 8:38 pm

    Doreen
    You said you didn’t know what I was saying above. So I spelled it out. Make up your mind please.

    Look I really loved Hughes as the set up guy last season. I believe Robertson will take that role next season.
    It would have been great if Both pitchers Phil and Joba weren’t rushed to the majors like they were, but they’re here now. Joba deserves to go to the pen. Phil deserves another shot starting.

  229. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 8:39 pm

    blake,

    As much as where his velocity is at, I think that they will be able to determine where Joba is physically based on whether or not his slider has returned to being as nasty it was in 2007 and 2008.

  230. pat December 27th, 2009 at 8:45 pm

    Having an effective 6th starter waiting in the wings (SWB) may hurt in the short term with the bullpen but may also benefit the organization more long term.

    The goal is to win but coming off a WS championship with as strong a rotation of 4 as they have had in years might be as good a time for patience as any.

  231. blake December 27th, 2009 at 8:46 pm

    Rich, I agree. Either way they should have a really talented #5.

  232. Noreaster December 27th, 2009 at 8:49 pm

    What an off season. All we have to argue about is who is our 9th hitter and our 5th starter (with two pretty good young options). Given that Cashman has populated our bullpen with young arms from the farm system, we have a great (very) young hitter at AAA and number 27 in the bank…I’d have to say mission accomplished!

  233. CB December 27th, 2009 at 8:50 pm

    “o who would you send down if thats what they decide to do? I think AAA would help Joba much more than it would Hughes.”

    It depends on what shape Joba is in and what his stuff looks like.

    But on the whole, AAA would likely help Hughes much more due to entirely pragmatic reasons – he’s going to be on an innings limit. And the other issue is that Phil still needs to work on a third pitch.

    The results for these guys in AAA are entirely secondary at this point because they’ve shown they can get out major leaguers.

    But there are still a number of things both Phil and Joba can learn in AAA, Phil in particular (depending on Joba’s stuff).

  234. Nick in SF in Charlotte, NC December 27th, 2009 at 8:53 pm

    I don’t think I have anything left to learn by Joba/Phil discussions on LoHud.

  235. Noreaster December 27th, 2009 at 8:57 pm

    Neither Joba or Phil are going down to AAA. They both have nothing to prove there and their pen upside is too high.

  236. Doreen December 27th, 2009 at 9:03 pm

    Get it Right –

    No, I didn’t say I didn’t understand what you were saying -

    I said, “I don’t understand WHY you are telling me this.”

  237. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 9:10 pm

    “Neither Joba or Phil are going down to AAA. They both have nothing to prove there and their pen upside is too high.”

    I think that’s a very short-sighted view that could end up forcing a repeat of this decision for multiple years.

  238. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 9:13 pm

    “I don’t think I have anything left to learn by Joba/Phil discussions on LoHud”

    Did you know Phil’s favorite color is magenta and his favorite number is -26?

    I agree. It’s getting a little stale. We’ll just have to see how it plays out.

    How about poking fun at Heyman’s HOF ballot? Yes to Dawson, Morris, Alomar, Mattingly, and Dave Parker. No to Blyleven and Raines.

  239. Pat M December 27th, 2009 at 9:15 pm

    Joba to the pen, Young Master Hughes to the rotation…

  240. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 9:15 pm

    Noreaster, this is not about whether Joba or Phil have anything to learn. Obviously they have brilliant upside – that is why one of them SHOULD go to AAA. It’s more likely to be Phil because he’s a year behind Joba development wise. Now, Phil is a smart kid and I think he has an aptitude for pitching. I wouldn’t be surprised if he comes to ST in as good shape as last year, having worked on his cutter some more (the change is going to take some time; for some reason, he’s had some difficulty with that pitch. I believe, however, that he will get it down at some point as long as he works at it).

    Pat, that’s been my point all along. If the Yankees are interested in the developing these kids to the point where they become consistent winners (and we know how much talent they have), then they’re going to have to have some foresight and not just think about the here and now. Whichever kid is not in the rotation needs to be prepared to take a few spot starts (or more, if need arises). I don’t want to see their arms futzed around with as they get yanked back and forth from the pen to the rotation.

  241. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 9:15 pm

    Pat M, I hope so……..

  242. jetmacClutch December 27th, 2009 at 9:17 pm

    you can always make a rash judgement and push Phil to teh ML Pen in October. He should just get his innings and work on his repertoire/changeup. We will always have him as security to the rotation in case someone goes down

  243. get it right please! December 27th, 2009 at 9:19 pm

    Doreen

    I was telling you that because Phil’s innings will need to be controlled next season. If he is going to be a starter the Yankees had better get with it now. He’s gone too many seasons
    with few innings.

  244. Nick in SF in Charlotte, NC December 27th, 2009 at 9:21 pm

    Pat M, are you trying to be one of Phil’s honorary blog daddies?????

  245. Yazman December 27th, 2009 at 9:21 pm

    Both project to be near-top-of-the-rotation starters.

    If one starts, the other relieves & also plugs injury holes.

    Decent odds the spring training “loser” can also reach 140 innings this year.

  246. Pat M December 27th, 2009 at 9:23 pm

    Nick in SF…..Hughes in the 5 spot, he’ll win 12 games….Bottom line

  247. ML December 27th, 2009 at 9:24 pm

    As at least one other person said above, they should obviously put the one who pitches best in ST in the 5 spot. How can you say who should start now, 6 weeks before ST begins?

    Whoever loses out should go to AAA to work on mechanics and fine tuning their game while remaining ready to step in if a starter goes down (as will almost certainly happen at some point). Speaking of which, it’s no disrespect to Andy to say that he’ll probably break down at some point this year. He’s 38. Almost any pitcher at that age is an injury liability. It’s no disrespect, just respect for the aging process.

    This team is virtually guaranteed to go to the playoffs, so we should be placing Joba and Phil in the best long-term situations for them. And that’s not the bullpen. We’ll survive in the pen without either of them, at least during the regular season. Once the playoffs start, we can put them there to bolster it if the other 4 starters are healthy and pitching well.

    Unfortunately, I suspect that the Yanks won’t have the discipline to put such talented pitchers in the minors. We’ll see.

  248. Jerkface December 27th, 2009 at 9:24 pm

    The Yankees base their innings limits off career highs, Hughes limit will be greater than 160 IP next season, but below 190.

  249. Nick in SF in Charlotte, NC December 27th, 2009 at 9:25 pm

    Joba couldn’t win 12+ games?

    Is it more likely that he would be worse in 2010 than he was in 2009 or better?

  250. Noreaster December 27th, 2009 at 9:26 pm

    Betsy, I have to disagree (with your disagreement!). It would be a waste of time putting Joba or Phil down in AAA considering the high level they have contributed at. While it would pile up innings and have the person down there be ready to step into the major league rotation, it would/could mess with their heads. We messed with Joba enough last year and learned that lesson. Let proven major league ready players play at the major league level. If one has to go down to the minors to get ‘stretched out’ during the season, so be it.

  251. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 9:28 pm

    Pat M

    “Joba to the pen, Young Master Hughes to the rotation…”

    If Joba shows that he can return to being the starter that he was in June and July of 2008, you’d put him in the pen?

    You cannot be serious.

  252. Noreaster December 27th, 2009 at 9:29 pm

    Nick, Think about what you are saying. Joba couldn’t win 12 games? Winning 15 games is really good, Joba and Phil are young, give them time to learn to start at this level. We know they can pitch out of the pen at this level and both have has some success starting…it usually takes time…

  253. Nick D. December 27th, 2009 at 9:30 pm

    I have no idea if this is going to happen but I hope that one is the 5th starter and the other gets sent down to AAA staying stretched out and waiting in the wings.

    The really both need to be given major league innings as a starter and be given the ability to go out there every 5th day.

    I absolutely haven’t given up on either as a starter and I hope the Yankees haven’t either.

    I’m very interested to see what they do and I hope its the right decision.

  254. Daveinmd December 27th, 2009 at 9:30 pm

    Joba in the rotation. Put Phil in AAA to start the season and build up his innings. If no injuries occur in the first 6 weeks, then you move him to the pen or Joba at that point if he’s still struggling.

  255. Mike December 27th, 2009 at 9:31 pm

    Both have the potential to be quality starters and in a playoff series could easily pitch both out of the pen b/c of the addition of Vasquez.

  256. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 9:31 pm

    “…it would/could mess with their heads.”

    I think they are a lot more resilient than you give them credit for being.

  257. Nick in SF in Charlotte, NC December 27th, 2009 at 9:33 pm

    I did think about what I said. How many games did Joba win, as a starter, in 2009?

    With that experience, with no innings limit, further away from his 2008 shoulder issue, with better offseason conditioning (we hope), is he likely to be better or worse in 2010?

  258. Pat M December 27th, 2009 at 9:35 pm

    Rich in NJ……We’ll revisit my statement in June….

  259. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 9:39 pm

    Pat M

    So you’re post is really a prediction?

    My point is not intended to address whether or not you are right, only that I think it’s in the Yankees’ best interests not truncate the evaluation process.

  260. Doreen December 27th, 2009 at 9:46 pm

    Get it right -

    I understand what you’re saying. This is not news to me. I am aware that Hughes will be on some kind of innings limit/managing of his innings/RULES oriented usage. My point in asking you why were you telling me this information is because I wasn’t aware that I had given any indication that I did not know this or did not understand this in any prior comment of mine.

    My initial response to you was because you seemed to be extremely down on Hughes’ performance as a starter and I was merely pointing out to you that he had mixed results as a starter, but was on the upside when he and the Yankees opted to send him to the bullpen instead of sending him back down to AAA. He had success in the pen up until the playoffs when he experienced some ineffectiveness.

    It’s very difficult in a written forum to get one’s ideas across, and even harder to do so without seeming to be antagonistic. I didn’t intend to antagonize you.

  261. Alvaro Fernandez Ravelo December 27th, 2009 at 9:47 pm

    There is 2011 to think also about … most likely Petitte will be gone and Vasquez too, that makes two holes in starting rotation.

  262. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 9:48 pm

    Just to expand on the point: I think there is a near consensus that Hughes should be a starter; the spit of opinion is over Joba. But despite the fatuous rantings of Francesser and others, the guy has shown enough as a starter to be given the chance to remain as one.

  263. Josh December 27th, 2009 at 9:51 pm

    People are acting like Joba was awful the entire year. When he was on a normal schedule, he had the lowest ERA of any starter on the team through the month of July. Starting with that Red Sox game in August, his numbers fell off a cliff.

    That was when he started getting irregular rest. Then he only threw 2-3 innings every start. There was a reason that every ex pitcher, pitching coach, and baseball gurus killed the Yankees for how they handled him. And his numbers reflect that.

    Again, he had the best ERA of the entire staff through 4 months of the season, with diminished velocity and a recovering shoulder. I didn’t hear anyone talk about his “conditioning” or “stubbornness” or “immaturity” then.

    Let’s see where he is at this Spring. People writing him off as nothing more as a reliever based off 2 months of being tinkered with, should keep an open mind.

  264. Dazz December 27th, 2009 at 10:00 pm

    Spring Training competitions are more or less silly.

    Who was the best pitcher for us last spring? Brett Tomko.

    Who was the best hitter? Brett Gardner.

    Who was the best reliever? Albaladejo.

    You don’t face major league quality talent for many long. The veteran power hitters usually are not there yet, the defense is always shoddy, and pitchers are working on things.

    You also face varying schedules. Teams only bring 3-4 starting position players on road trips. Hughes might be facing the starting lineup for the Phillies at home, yet Joba may be facing the Astros AAA lineup.

    Spring competitions are not to be taken seriously. Look at who won jobs in our pen last year compared to the guys who eventually finished in our pen.

  265. Daveinmd December 27th, 2009 at 10:02 pm

    What you can tell from spring training is who is in shape, who is throwing well and who is taking their jobs seriously. This is more important with younger players.

  266. Bronx Jeers December 27th, 2009 at 10:04 pm

    Ahhh. A Joba/Hughes-bullpen/starter debate. How novel.

    Happy 2nd day of Kwanzaa.

  267. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 10:04 pm

    I really don’t think being in shape or mental approach are major issues for Joba.

  268. Bill Porter December 27th, 2009 at 10:04 pm

    Daveinmd December 27th, 2009 at 9:30 pm wrote:

    “Joba in the rotation. Put Phil in AAA to start the season and build up his innings. If no injuries occur in the first 6 weeks, then you move him to the pen or Joba at that point if he’s still struggling.”

    I think that’s just about right; maybe 8 – 10 weeks for Phil at SWB. It’s a reasonable way to get Phil’s innings to 150 – 160 on the season and see if there’s payoff to be had from the 2009 “Joba Rules” based on Joba at the 5 slot. If it works out the pen will be tough down the stretch, there will be 5 solid starters and the kids will both be on their way for the 2011 season.

  269. Erica - always OPPC - Bring Johnny Back!!! December 27th, 2009 at 10:05 pm

    Doreen – Ain’t it Just “Grand”?
    December 27th, 2009 at 7:09 pm

    Off-topic – I bought myself one of those turntables that digitalize LPs, and I spent a part of the day exporting my old Barbra Streisand albums to my iTunes library. What fun!!! I forgot how much I enjoyed singing to her music. (I did 3 today – Broadway Album, Superman and A Star Is Born. I’ve got about 8 more to go!)

    **********
    Doreen-

    My dad got one of those a few years ago for $300. He has used it to make exactly one CD from a Moody Blues album. He now refers to it as his $300 CD. However, he says the turntable looks lovely in its resting spot on the coffee table

  270. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 10:07 pm

    “Spring Training competitions are more or less silly.”

    Who is arguing the point that the results of ST competitions should be enduring?

  271. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 10:09 pm

    I wouldn’t move Phil to the pen after 8-10 weeks of the season. He needs to remain a starter until at least August.

  272. get it right please! December 27th, 2009 at 10:10 pm

    Doreen

    The only thing antagonistic is calling concern about Phil very low innings and possible damage to his arm, classified as Extremely down on Phil.

    That’s the only reason I kept writing back. It was about his low innings pitched to start.

  273. ray (sox fan) December 27th, 2009 at 10:14 pm

    I entirely agree that the results of the Spring training games are not all that important.

    However, I do think that Spring training can set the tone for the season for some players. It’s not a good sign if they come to spring training out of shape and unfocused.

    On the Sox side of things, concerns were expressed during Spring training last year about Dice-K. Even though he was pitching in those other games, when he arrived in the Sox game he was unfocused and in the opinion of some out of shape.

    I think that was a sign of things to come for the season. I do think Joba needs to make sure he is in shape because he tends to be a big guy.

  274. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 10:17 pm

    If it says anything about spring training, Enrique Wilson batted something like .444 during ST one year.

  275. Ted December 27th, 2009 at 10:19 pm

    How about sending joba and huges to aaa and have them come to ny in 2011?

  276. Banjo December 27th, 2009 at 10:20 pm

    “I really don’t think being in shape or mental approach are major issues for Joba.”

    Nope. His velocity and recovery from his shoulder will determine if he can become the starter he showed he could be in 08.

    The psychobabble that people analyze Joba with is just white noise. That is not the real issue.

  277. Bill Porter December 27th, 2009 at 10:23 pm

    Well, the AAA season opens April 8, if he pitches there till August that’s about 14 weeks. If you figure 1.5 starts per week and 6 innings per start that’s about 130 innings on the season at AAA. That doesn’t leave a lot of innings to adjust to the pen or contribute at the MLB level if the cut off is 150 – 160 innings. But whatever. I think the concept is a good one; obviously the amount of time he spends at AAA (if he does at all) needs to be determined.

  278. Luke December 27th, 2009 at 10:25 pm

    Can’t wait to here Berthume and Buccergoirse (sp?) kill the Colts for allowing the Jets to control their own destiny for a playoff spot. Dilfer already said it was a “joke” that they won won and that it should have an asterisk next to it and the Bengals will beat them next week… expect more Jets hate in the coming days talking about how they didn’t deserve to win and it messed up the integrity of the system.

  279. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 10:29 pm

    Whether or not Hughes is able to adjust to the ML pen isn’t as important as developing him to be a starter. If he is needed to fill a role in the pen down the stretch and he can do it, fine. If not, fine too. Focusing only on his 2010 season is too costly for his long-term development. They already did that in 2009.

    But all this is probably moot. The Yankees will need at least six starter this season, and probably more.

  280. cameron December 27th, 2009 at 10:31 pm

    Joba had a tough year, playing for a WS win, while his mother was in trouble, and it broadcast in the media. Phil needs more innings.

    The great thing is everybody on the team has postseason experience and know what to expect, this is a good thing.

  281. #28 December 27th, 2009 at 10:31 pm

    Let’s face it, control is not one of Joba’s strong points so trotting him out there for 6-7+ is risky. He was, however, a dominant setup man and has the makeup to be an excellent closer. Hughes throws a nice fastball, a(knuckle)curve that has made batters look silly, and an effective cutter which should be able to get lefties out (by my understanding, pitchers will not usually have both a cutter and a changeup in their repertoire). Given Hughes’ ability to keep hitters off guard with several pitches, I have to argue that he’s better suited for the rotation with Joba filling the 8th inning role. Either way, these guys are still young so their roles aren’t yet set in stone.

  282. dan l. December 27th, 2009 at 10:34 pm

    this loss was a blessing in disguise for the giants

    what were the chances of us going to minny and trying to beat a team that needs to win to secure a bye in the dome AND dallas losing to philly at home?

    and if we had a couple of good defensive games, maybe Sheridan would have kept his job.

    go 8-8. get the better draft picks, get Sheriden fired and get changes made… if we went 10-6, we still probably miss the playoffs, and maybe the org. chalks it up to a bad year and we don’t make any changes.

    favre and co. are going to torch us. at least it won’t mean anything.

  283. yankswin27 December 27th, 2009 at 10:37 pm

    Yankees close to deal with Reed Johnson

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

  284. James December 27th, 2009 at 10:40 pm

    Can we wait and see what Joba’s velocity is first before determining his roll?

  285. yankswin27 December 27th, 2009 at 10:43 pm

    Well at least I want the Yankees to sign Reed Johnson, much more valuable than that chach Jermaine Dye.

  286. Pat M December 27th, 2009 at 10:46 pm

    The real question is, does Joba Chamberlain have the make-up, the pedigree, the mindset to be a MLB starting pitcher ???? He throws too many balls, pitches himself into way too many 3-2 counts…He has a great arm, but he also has average to below average mechanics which is manifested when he’s called upon to pitch more than 2-3 innings….He had a nice 3 game run after the All-Star break, but then it was down hill…..I just think that The Yankees’s front office is sold on Joba as a starter, as just about every start he labors far to often for a starter…..Maturity just might the issue when evaluating Joba Chamberlain the starter as well as his committment in that role……He has talent, it’s just when will it be harnessed & will the club have the patience that it may require to achieve that talent…..Then again, maybe Joba is the next Goose Gossage…..

  287. murphydog December 27th, 2009 at 10:48 pm

    “The psychobabble that people analyze Joba with is just white noise. That is not the real issue.”

    The bottom line is that nobody here knows what the real issues are with Joba. Joba, Eiland, Girardi and Cash know.

    But since this is a blog and not an internal Yankee management meeting, IMO Joba’s biggest problems are in fact his attitude/maturity and his conditioning.

    Why do you think he had a shoulder problem? The obvious answer is conditioning. Another part of velocity is pushing off with the legs. If the wheels aren’t there, there’s a drop in velo. Again, conditioning. As for maturity and attitude, not being in top shape is an example of not appreciating how hard it is to be an effective MLB level pitcher for an entire season. That’s a lack of maturity and a poor attitude because you know he was told over and over that he needed to be in top shape.

    He was a High Risk, High Reward signing by the Yankees. He has struggled to stay at this weight – he used to be much heavier. I’m not at all sure he will be successful over the long run as a starter and I’ll chalk that up to his make up rather than any lack of stuff.

    By the same token, his makeup – his “nerve” if you will – is what makes it possible for him to come into games late and in tough spots and want the ball. That part of his personality he has to keep. But he also has to make a 100% commitment to being the best he can be. I believe that Hughes has made that commitment even if he lacks the explosiveness of Joba’s raw talent. I’m more inclined to think Hughes will be around for a while as a starter. I hope however that Joba proves me wrong about him

  288. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 10:48 pm

    “Let’s face it, control is not one of Joba’s strong points so trotting him out there for 6-7+ is risky.”

    His command was fine in 2007 (BB/9: 2.25, AVG :3.33) and 2008 (BB/9: 3.50, AVG: 3.339), it was only in 2009 that it became a problem (BB/9: 4.35, AVG: 3.46).

    We don’t know whether 2009 was an aberration or the beginning of a trend.

  289. Pat M December 27th, 2009 at 10:48 pm

    Yanks front office isn’t sold on Joba as a starter…..CORECTION

  290. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 10:49 pm

    “Can’t wait to here Berthume and Buccergoirse (sp?) kill the Colts for allowing the Jets to control their own destiny for a playoff spot.

    Folks in many cities will agree. To some small degree, the Colts decision to B team it thru the 4th quarter served to compromise the integrity of the playoff race. You know what? Too bleeping bad. The playoff race isn’t their problem. They’ve locked in all they need to lock in and protecting their horses is what made the most sense. They’ve earned the right to do exactly what they did.

  291. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 10:51 pm

    “Why do you think he had a shoulder problem? The obvious answer is conditioning”

    I think that is a leap that is unwarranted by the available facts. It was a very hot night in Texas. He had his innings per start moved up fairly quickly. Each or both of those factors are as likely explanations as the one you put forth.

    And btw, Hughes hurt his hamstring in Texas. Was his conditioning bad too?

  292. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 10:53 pm

    “The real question is, does Joba Chamberlain have the make-up, the pedigree, the mindset to be a MLB starting pitcher ???? He throws too many balls, pitches himself into way too many 3-2 counts…”

    Why is that the real question? His makeup as a starer was superb in 2008 and he didn’t throw too many balls.

  293. blake December 27th, 2009 at 10:55 pm

    “Yankees close to deal with Reed Johnson”

    yea I’m not seeing that anywhere.

  294. Josh December 27th, 2009 at 11:00 pm

    The Joba vs Hughes dialog always seems to lack in one critical area: Phil Hughes (regardless of what the minor league scouting report says) has been essentially a two pitch pitcher at the big league level. Hughes fails to mix in the changeup or slider that his scouting report mentions. Therefore as a two pitch pitcher, Phil is better in the bullpen. Some Hughes fans would point out that Phil has two different fastballs, a four and a two seamer. And they even throw the word ‘cutter’ in there. However, unlike AJ Burnett, Hughes has not demonstrated any difference in movement, whether he is throwing the two seamer, the four seamer or the cutter (two seamer with slight pressure). The velocity is solid… but the movement is non existent. Phil’s fastball is simply straight. To that point, Hughes is a two pitch major league pitcher… off to the bullpen it is.

    Joba on the other hand has shown the ability (guts?) to throw four pitches at the big league level. Fastball, slider, curve and change. Are Joba’s curve and change filthy? Nope. But they keep the batter guessing. You can’t improve on a pitch, if you don’t throw it. And even if Joba’s curve and change need work, at least he’s is trying. Phil just keeps pumping fastballs and curves in there, and over the course of a full start, major league hitters figure him out.

    Please Chad, Sam, Josh and Lohud faithful, please start making this pitch mix topic a part of the Joba vs Hughes starter/pen conversation. Too often, the dialog de-volves into a battle of subjectivity… instead of tangible analysis.

  295. PittsburghYankeeFan December 27th, 2009 at 11:00 pm

    I went to the link, and saw nothing about Reed Johnson.

  296. murphydog December 27th, 2009 at 11:01 pm

    “And btw, Hughes hurt his hamstring in Texas. Was his conditioning bad too?”

    Like I said, it was just my opinion. But I also said that nobody here “knows” for certain what’s up with Joba and that’s true too.

    Injuries happen. Sometimes they happen by overdoing it. Hughes was chasing a no-hitter and may have pushed himself too far. Joba’s injury may have been due to his handlers as much as anything else.

    But I’d like to pose a question: Of the two, Joba and Hughes, what is their conditioning and work ethic history as players and prospects? Joba was a fat kid who played out of shape and only recently in his career seems to have gotten conditioning religion. He was taken as a high risk, high reward guy. Hughes on the other hand was a golden child kind of player and was a No. 1 organizational pick. People don’t always succeed in permanently changing who they are. I also tend to evaluate folks in part by who they have been. That makes me suspect Joba’s conditioning, and not just because he had a shoulder injury.

  297. James December 27th, 2009 at 11:01 pm

    MLBTR says nothing of the sort

    Did you misread the “Mets sign Kelvim Escobar” title?

  298. Pat M December 27th, 2009 at 11:01 pm

    Rich in NJ….I think just about every starter in 2007 had muscle releated injuries, and the club dismissed the conditioning coach and staff sometime in May…..

  299. Nick in SF in Charlotte, NC December 27th, 2009 at 11:04 pm

    Pat M, kidding aside, I have a lot of respect for your wisdom and judgement on these matters. I guess I am more encouraged by the great potential we have seen from Joba than discouraged by his struggles.

    All things being equal, Joba is the one who’s ready to let it fly… it’s up to him to put it all together.

    It is a very tricky path to navigate, developing these two phenoms…nice that we could win #27 while doing it…another service CC/AJ/Andy provided.

  300. David in Cal December 27th, 2009 at 11:04 pm

    “Spring Training competitions are more or less silly.

    Who was the best pitcher for us last spring? Brett Tomko.

    Who was the best hitter? Brett Gardner.”

    In fact, Tomko had a pretty good season with a 3.77 ERA. The Yanks never really gave him a chance, but he pitched quite well for the A’s (4-1 2.95). And, Gardner hit surprisingly well before he was injured. So, maybe spring training results do have some predictive value.

  301. Tucker December 27th, 2009 at 11:04 pm

    I agree with Josh on this one. For me, if we can’t put both Phil and Joba in the starting rotation, then the choice has to be Joba in the rotation and Phil in the pen.

    If we had two spot in the rotation open, I’d be all for them both getting a shot. But we only have one starting spot open (for now). Therefore, Joba has to be the starter over Phil… Hughes just hasn’t shown the third pitch necessary to choose him over Joba.

  302. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 11:04 pm

    “But I also said that nobody here “knows” for certain what’s up with Joba and that’s true too.”

    I agree.

    “Joba and Hughes, what is their conditioning and work ethic history as players and prospects? ”

    I’m not sure I know the answer to that either. Last year, Joel Sherman spread what I believe is a false meme that the Yankees were dissatisfied with Hughes’s conditioning. But it’s hard to know what’s true.

  303. CR9 December 27th, 2009 at 11:04 pm

    Can Someone translate this?

    Pierre calcetines rojos

  304. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 11:06 pm

    Pat M

    I remember, but it’s hard to say with certainty that Marty Miller’s regimen was responsible for Hughes’s injury.

  305. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 11:07 pm

    Hughes began throwing a cutter a lot last season. In the mLs, he had a two seamer and a four seamer to go along with his curve.

  306. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 11:09 pm

    CR9:

    Last two words are “red socks”

  307. blake December 27th, 2009 at 11:10 pm

    Theres nothing about Reed Johnson that I can find.

    The real question with Joba is whether he can consistently throw 95+ MPH as a starter again? Was the decrease in velocity due to lingering injury? being out of shape? mechanical issues? etc? Without 95+ Joba is very average because he doesn’t have plus command or multiple plus secondary pitches. Hopefully Joba will show up to ST in shape and with his fastball…

  308. Pat M December 27th, 2009 at 11:10 pm

    Josh, What in the world are you talking about…..The book on Hughes ever since HS was that he has late movement on his fastball….I’ve seen this for myself, years ago…..Hughes has giddy-up on his fastball, much like Ron Guidry, late pop …..

  309. dan l. December 27th, 2009 at 11:11 pm

    Too late Joba… you came into camp out of shape last year and were not committed…

    you will now be the setup man where you can eat as much as you want because you will only throw 60 innings… maybe if you showed you were committed to being in shape to throw 200 innings and the ability to not throw a million pitches and go to 3-2 counts and labor every start… you would bei n the rotation.

    there is no competition. that is just cashmanspeak. unless hughes is just god awful, he will be the starter. trust me folks… this is typical cashman trying to say there is a “competition”, there isin’t.

    hughes is committed to it, he trains in that LA performance center while joba is eating donuts in nebraska. that is why hughes is going to be the starter.

  310. blake December 27th, 2009 at 11:14 pm

    Hughes also has the potential for a very good change as well. I personally don’t think its a stretch that he could have a Halladay like arsenal of pitches one day. That may be a little optimistic but I really believe in him…

  311. murphydog December 27th, 2009 at 11:15 pm

    “Last year, Joel Sherman spread what I believe is a false meme that the Yankees were dissatisfied with Hughes’s conditioning. But it’s hard to know what’s true.”

    I thought Hughes went to some training farm, Athletes Performance Institute (API) in Arizona, to get in shape before ST.

    http://www.bigleaguescrew.com/.....out-report

    Look under “Incredible Bulk”

    Phil also played in the AFL last year. Could be he just got tired by the end of 2009. Phil’s offseason last year says he’s no “slacker.” Not sure what Sherman was talking about.

  312. IrishCarBomb December 27th, 2009 at 11:16 pm

    Phil Hughes has shown to be very mediocre as a starter.

    What exactly are his 3 to 4 good pitches?

  313. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 11:19 pm

    “Without 95+ Joba is very average because he doesn’t have plus command or multiple plus secondary pitches”

    So true. One significant issue that came with Joba’s reduced velocity was that nobody would swing at his slider. As he rarely threw the slider for strikes, save one night in Boston, that got him in trouble. When he’s throwing 95+, as a hitter, you have to sit fastball and react if it’s something else. Batters had a tougher time identifying the slider when he was throwing 95 mph heaters and he got more swings and misses on it….even though he never threw it for strikes then either.

  314. IrishCarBomb December 27th, 2009 at 11:19 pm

    Josh- GREAT POST

    I think Hughes has been VERY over hyped like all the yankee prospects.

  315. Six Degrees of Javier Vazquez December 27th, 2009 at 11:20 pm

    Who’s gonna play left field this season?

  316. Pat M December 27th, 2009 at 11:26 pm

    Nick in SF ( Hanging out in Charlotte )…..Here’s my final comment….In the long run, Hughes will have the better career, in fact I believe that he’ll be one of the games top starters……The folks in Charlotte must be just giddy after hammering the G-Men today ……

  317. Frank December 27th, 2009 at 11:27 pm

    “save one night in Boston”

    Correction. That night was at NYS. Joba fanned 12 in 5 1/3 innings against Boston. 9 Red Sox were caught looking on a night where Joba did throw the slider for strikes.

  318. blake December 27th, 2009 at 11:28 pm

    Hughes only threw 2 pitches out of the pen because he didn’t need anything else.

    He has a 4 seamer, 2 seamer, cutter, curve, and change. He has the potential to make all of these plus pitches if he is given the chance to develop them. Hughes had great command all through the minor leagues and just needs the chance to pitch consistently at the big league level.

  319. RM December 27th, 2009 at 11:28 pm

    Phil and Joba will fight for the 5th spot in the rotation in spring training. The loser can be the sixth starter (unless one of them pitches very bad). I would send the 5th starter to AAA for the 1st month of the season to get some work. If the Yankees don’t need a 6th starter that would be great news. Unfortunatley it is fairly likely we will need at least six and probably seven starters before the seaon is over. If they don’t this is a very nice problem to have.

  320. NYYk9005 December 27th, 2009 at 11:28 pm

    IrishCarBomb-

    Hughes = real deal

  321. Noreaster December 27th, 2009 at 11:30 pm

    Irish,

    First, are you serious about you tag? Really?

    Second, Phil was one of the top setup relief pitchers this year. Plus he has an A+ minor league record. Overhyped, I think not.

  322. Noreaster December 27th, 2009 at 11:32 pm

    Feel free to fix the typo…

  323. blake December 27th, 2009 at 11:33 pm

    “Who’s gonna play left field this season?”

    Still think it’ll be Matt Holliday..the longer this drags on the more I think its gonna happen. If the Yankees were serious about signing one of these Reed Johnson types then why haven’t they done it already and why hasn’t Holliday accepted the Card’s offer. I think they are both waiting each other out…I could very well be wrong but I don’t believe anything Cashman says in public and it just makes too much sense at the current price..

  324. BOHAN December 27th, 2009 at 11:35 pm

    ortforshort
    how will they prove themselves if they don’t start on a regular basis? starting once in awhile isn’t the same as getting a start every 5th day therefore their performance wouldnt be the same. i think they sholdve never traded for vasguez and had them both starting. theyre just going to hinder one of their progression even more then they have already.

  325. Noreaster December 27th, 2009 at 11:37 pm

    blake, the Yankees are keeping LF open for a possible run a Crawford next year…Holliday has seen his best days already. Let’s look forward to Gardner + what ever righty to fill LF next year in the 9 hole…

  326. blake December 27th, 2009 at 11:40 pm

    Noreaster, Holliday is better than Crawford and could end up being cheaper. Crawford’s game is mostly dependent on his legs which have taken a beating playing at the Trop all these years. If the Yankees really are cutting payroll then fine but if they are planning on using the money they could have signed Holliday with this year to pursue Crawford next year then I think its a mistake..

  327. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 11:41 pm

    murphydog

    By last year, I meant 2008.

  328. Rich in NJ December 27th, 2009 at 11:43 pm

    “I think Hughes has been VERY over hyped like all the yankee prospects.”

    Wang, Cano, and Robertson were actually under hyped. But whatever.

  329. Yazman December 27th, 2009 at 11:43 pm

    CB, entirely agree regarding short and long term goals.

    If Phil’s in the pen and a SP goes down, how long would it take to stretch him out? Trying to have my cake and eat it too.

    Is there a scenario where Phil can RP, and then stretch out when needed? Love to have as many of Phil’s (and Joba’s) innings as possible at MLB level without sacrificing their growth.

  330. ray (sox fan) December 27th, 2009 at 11:48 pm

    I will probably be shot down as a Sox troll but that’s ok. :)

    I think it is pretty apparent that at least in the past Hughes was overhyped. There was a time on here that everyone called him Phil Franchise.

    You don’t see that anymore because most people’s expectations of him have lowered.

    I will attempt to be fair and acknowledge that there are plenty of Sox players that are over hyped.

    Certainly Dice-K has not lived up to all the hype about him. I also think that in Sox circles Bucholtz has been over hyped.

  331. Phil the Thrill December 27th, 2009 at 11:51 pm

    He was much better than Lester and Bucholz were in the minors, so what were they, Ray?

  332. blake December 27th, 2009 at 11:53 pm

    Ray, I think thats fair to say. Many Yankees and Sox prospects are over-hyped because they have the broadest fanbases and because the players are discussed so much. I haven’t lowered my expectations of Hughes, I still think he’s going to be really good.

  333. ray (sox fan) December 27th, 2009 at 11:55 pm

    Phil the Thrill
    December 27th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
    He was much better than Lester and Bucholz were in the minors, so what were they, Ray?
    —————————————————

    Phil, I tried to point out that I really feel that Bucholtz has been over hyped.

    I am not dissing Hughes. I think he is a fine pitcher, but I do think in the past anyways he was over hyped.

    Not trying to start a fight, but I believe Lester is only two years older than Hughes, but Lester has been pitching effectively in the big leagues now for four or five years.

    It may well turn out that Hughes will be better pitcher than Lester, but right now I would take Lester over Hughes.

  334. Betsy - high on pie December 27th, 2009 at 11:57 pm

    It makes absolutely no sense to start Phil at AAA only to insert him into the pen, where he’ll be a short man (most likely) and won’t be available to spot start or to start, period, in case of a serious injury.

  335. Noreaster December 27th, 2009 at 11:59 pm

    Phil, No problem being a Sox fan on this blog…we enjoy all points of view. I don’t see Phil as being overhyped, he is a very young pitcher with 3 very good pitches who has proven himself in the pen and has shown flashing while starting…Time will tell as it will with Laptop (ok, I’m a Yankee Troll)

  336. Noreaster December 28th, 2009 at 12:00 am

    Ray, sorry, may that Ray not Phil…

  337. E-gawa December 28th, 2009 at 12:00 am

    Unless Joba magically turns back into the Joba who first appeared on to the Major league scene with that 100mph heat.. I think he should start the season in the minors.

    The guy just doesn’t look right out there (starting or in relief) and judging his entire rightness/being/current state based on 6 innings in the post season is insane.

  338. E-gawa December 28th, 2009 at 12:01 am

    *he got lucky and I was still holding my breath every time he came in

  339. Noreaster December 28th, 2009 at 12:02 am

    E-gawa, Ignoring Joba’s resume pre August and in the post season is insane too…You have to look at the body of work.

  340. ray (sox fan) December 28th, 2009 at 12:02 am

    Not a problem at all Noreaster.

  341. Betsy - high on pie December 28th, 2009 at 12:04 am

    Josh, I couldn’t disagree with you more. First of all, please list the many opportunities Phil has had to start in the majors. He had 2 starts in 2007, after which he got hurt. He struggled in August as he didn’t trust his legs, then pitched very well in September and October. Obviously in 2008 something was wrong. He showed up in ST early and looked great off the bat. As ST ended and the season began, Phil really struggled…..and his command was awful. IMO, he was feeling the effects of the rib injury then. Then, he had two pretty good starts at the end of 2008. 2009, he had two outstanding starts, a few solid/ok ones and one horrendous start. He has simply not had the time to further develop his change and it’s a shame that you already want to relegate him to the pen.

  342. E-gawa December 28th, 2009 at 12:05 am

    I wasn’t ignore his pre August. He had 3 very good starts after the all star break *clap* *clap*

  343. Betsy - high on pie December 28th, 2009 at 12:08 am

    Ray, I think it’s way too early to say he was overhyped and I will not get into a Lester comparison. Phil has been hurt the vast majority of the last couple of years…..If fans expectations for him have been lowered, that’s their issue. The Yankees feel differently.l I don’t know how anyone can say he’s been overhyped when he hasn’t had the chance to even pitch one complete season as a starter. He showed terrific stuff promise last year before being shunted to the pen – you do not dominate the Rangers in their home park like that without great stuff. Phil has unbelievable command and true swing and miss stuff when he’s right……. I respect you a great deal, as you know, but I do think you are judging Phil prematurely.

  344. Betsy - high on pie December 28th, 2009 at 12:10 am

    Pat M, exactly……….it’s not just the book, either; it’s reality. Phil’s K to BB ratio was excellent in 2007 and it was outstanding this year. People really don’t know Phil at all as a pitcher.

  345. Rich in NJ December 28th, 2009 at 12:10 am

    “It may well turn out that Hughes will be better pitcher than Lester, but right now I would take Lester over Hughes.”

    Let’s not forget that Lester is two years older.

  346. Phil the Thrill December 28th, 2009 at 12:10 am

    http://www.pinstripealley.com/.....-table-for

    What the?

  347. ray (sox fan) December 28th, 2009 at 12:11 am

    Hi Betsy. It may very well be that I have judged Phil prematurely. I do hope you know that I am not trying to disrespect him at all.

    It is true that he has had to deal with some injury problems.

  348. Rich in NJ December 28th, 2009 at 12:13 am

    No way the Yankees give Bay four years.

  349. Betsy - high on pie December 28th, 2009 at 12:14 am

    Blake, Phil is a smart kid and has an aptitude for pitching, but he does (for some reason) seem to have a hard time with the change. Still, there’s no reason he can’t develop at least a workable one – it doesn’t have to be great.

  350. Nick in SF in Charlotte, NC December 28th, 2009 at 12:16 am

    Phil, the link from that page makes it clear, it’s about the Mets, not the Yanks.

  351. BJK December 28th, 2009 at 12:17 am

    Phil-

    Read down into the comments. It’s a misreport. The Mets are the ones with the offer, not the Yanks.

  352. Betsy - high on pie December 28th, 2009 at 12:20 am

    Ray, it’s not in you to disrespect anyone…… I know that. I always have my answer about Phil at the ready because Yankee fans, for the most part (at least until he went in the pen) did give up on Phil. I really don’t believe he was overhyped. Cash made a bad mistake bringing him up in 2007 (when he wasn’t supposed to come up until September of that year). Of course I don’t blame him for Phil’s injury, but Phil could have used a full year in AAA. 2008 was a complete loss…. I know that in ST this year, his stuff truly returned and he was healthy for the first time in a long time. He’s had a rocky road, unfortunately…….circumstances have really been against him. He showed signs of huge potential last year as a starter and turned it around after his terrible start in Baltimore. If he gets the #5 spot, I still expect him to be up and down – but that’s part of the growing pains young pitchers go through. He really just needs a chance to start.

  353. Ed - campaigning for Josh Willingham (it worked for Gaudin) December 28th, 2009 at 12:23 am

    Phil,

    I think the author mistook that article saying the Yanks offered Bay 4/65. From what I read, it was the Mets.

  354. CR9 December 28th, 2009 at 12:26 am

    “but Lester has been pitching effectively in the big leagues now for four or five years.”

    Ray, Lester is a stud. But he got cancer, pitched Game 7 of the 2007 WS, and then dominated in 2008 regular season and was Top 5 or 10 in MLB in pitchers in 2009. So he has been a great pitcher, or pitched effectively consistently, for 2 years.

    Prior to the cancer, he was a 100 pitch 5 inning guy who had no command/control.

    He has only pitched from 2006, and in 06 and 07, had only 26 starts.

    In 2006, his SO/BB ratio was 60/43, which is something like 1.33/1

  355. dee December 28th, 2009 at 12:27 am

    I’m just hoping to wake up one day and read the headlines “Yanks Get Holliday”. No matter how much Cash denies it, I believe that we are still waiting him out. I think Cash purposely says that they are not interested. Let’s face it. He is definitely keeping a close eye on Holliday. With that said, if we do not acquire Holliday, I’m all for letting Gardner start…until July. If he doesn’t pan out, then there’s always a chance of getting an better, everyday Left Fielder.

  356. Pat M December 28th, 2009 at 12:29 am

    Betsy, 12-7 for Young Master Hughes in 2010

  357. BJK December 28th, 2009 at 12:29 am

    The Yankees just won a World Series. They have a guy who is a #2 (#1 on some teams) pitching in their 4 slot. If now is not the right time to effectively develop their young pitching, there never will be a time.

    Joba and Phil should both be considered starters until they prove they can’t do it. That’s how they were drafted and moved up through the system.

    Joba comes into spring training a step ahead in line because of his innings limit. It’s his job to lose. The organization wants him to succeed. It’s up to Joba.

    Meanwhile, as far as Hughes is concerned, the Yankees need to get him back on track for his development as a starter, because with the depth of their pitching staff, they have the time and resources to allow him to do it on his own pace.

    If his innings limit is 150 innings, then they need to figure out the best way to utilize those innings. As the team’s sixth starter, he should start the season in AAA with an easy workload and prepare for the inevitable injury to occur.

    The Yankees are a team that can afford to have Hughes work on his secondary pitches in AAA. They have that luxury with guys like Marte, Robertson and Aceves in the pen. If those guys falter and the team looks headed towards disaster, you have the choice to alter the plan.

    This is the year we find out if the Yankees can develop their own pitching instead of waiting for someone else to develop guys that we pay $20 million a year.

  358. CR9 December 28th, 2009 at 12:31 am

    Oops. I meant Game 4.

  359. Betsy - high on pie December 28th, 2009 at 12:35 am

    Phil, if we get 12 wins out of our 5th starter, I’d say we’re in good shape. Hard to believe, but ST is only 2 months away…….

    Dee, I just don’t think the Yanks are interested at any price. The Cards already have an offer of 5/85 on the table. Unless the Yankees think they are going to pull it or reduce it (no chance), then Holliday’s price tag is set at that amount. He’s obviously not happy with that offer, so he’s not going to take less……..

  360. Betsy - high on pie December 28th, 2009 at 12:35 am

    BJK, I agree……

  361. Betsy - high on pie December 28th, 2009 at 12:38 am

    The Mets are pursuing Holliday?

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....ation.html

  362. Six Degrees of Javier Vazquez December 28th, 2009 at 12:47 am

    Betsy – high on pie December 28th, 2009 at 12:35 am

    Phil, if we get 12 wins out of our 5th starter, I’d say we’re in good shape. Hard to believe, but ST is only 2 months away…….
    =====================================================
    opening day = 3 months and 1 week from tonight!

  363. BJK December 28th, 2009 at 12:48 am

    Betsy – high on pie
    December 28th, 2009 at 12:38 am
    The Mets are pursuing Holliday?

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/…..ation.html

    ——————————————————-

    Either they’re pursuing Holliday, or most likely they just want their fans to think they’re trying to do something.

    It’s mindd-boggling that Minaya is still running their show.

  364. Abdababdaserser December 28th, 2009 at 12:52 am

    That article on Mets/Holliday doesn’t say much. It sounds more like they are saying they are pursuing Holliday in an effort to get Bay to accept.

  365. Jerkface December 28th, 2009 at 2:57 am

    Hughes was historically great in the minor leagues, one of the best ever in terms of:

    - striking batters out
    - not giving up runs
    - not walking anyone
    - being amazing

    He was the #1 pitching prospect in baseball, or top 5 after his first year in the minors by most scouting websites.

    There is no overhype. Circumstances have merely conspired to hold him back at the major league level, but if people could not hype hughes then pretty much no prospect can be hyped.

    And if anyone thinks Casey Kelly is good, they might want to look at what Hughes did to the minor leagues.

    Also to say his pitches have no movement is hilarious, because his 4-seamer explodes in the zone, his 2 seamer has decent movement down in the zone, and his cutter looked ridiculous at times last year.

  366. NYYk9005 December 28th, 2009 at 3:57 am

    As a starter-

    Joba Chamberlain through the age of 23:
    4.18 ERA, 1.480 WHIP, 4.10 BB/9

    Jon Lester through the age of 23:
    4.68 ERA, 1.566 WHIP, 4.60 BB/9

  367. NYYk9005 December 28th, 2009 at 4:05 am

    Hughes, overrated?

    23 year old pitching in the AL East coming off a season with a 141 ERA+ in 86 innings…

    The guy was catching fire as a starter in 2009.
    The last three starts he had before converting into a reliever had him go 2-0, 3.50 ERA in 18 innings with a- get this- 21 K : 3 BB ratio!!!!!!!!!

    That is not over-hype.
    He is definitely getting there…

  368. NYYk9005 December 28th, 2009 at 4:17 am

    One should be in the MLB rotation, the other in the AAA rotation- I think the bullpen has something special with Robertson…

    After all Hughes was pretty bad in the bullpen coming down the stretch with 3 blown games in September, and an abysmal October.
    And for all the ‘Joba was GREAT in the pen’ talk, he had a 1.58 WHIP out of the pen in October with a big blown game in the World Series.

    These guys aren’t modern day Marianos…let them mature and stick with Marte and Robertson pitching big 7th and 8th innings.

  369. Striper7 December 28th, 2009 at 7:22 am

    You must be one of those guys that cant get over the fact that Joba started this past season instead of being placed in the bullpen. Get over it,the Yanks seem to know what they are doing, thats why their management gets the big bucks. Hughes did a great job as Mo’s setup guy, and thats where he will be again this season. Joba will be the #5 guy. Lets move on now, thanks! You need to find some thing else to write about.

  370. 86w183 December 28th, 2009 at 7:32 am

    To me this is not a short term decision, but a long term one. If the team sees Hughes or Joba as the closer of the future, then that guy should be in the pen. If they see both a starters 2009–10 and beyond then one should go to Scranton.

    Not thrilled with the pen if neither Hughes nor Joba is involved.

  371. Doreen December 28th, 2009 at 7:32 am

    Get it right -

    I apologize for mischaracterizing your opinion of Phil Hughes.

    Erica -

    I paid $100 for mine, and have copied 4 LPs already. If all I copy is my Streisand collection, it will have been worth it! :)

  372. blake December 28th, 2009 at 7:41 am

    Does anybody know what Joba is doing this winter? Is he working out somewhere or just hanging out in Nebraska.

  373. MTU December 28th, 2009 at 7:42 am

    Blake-
    If he was smart he would have gone to API like Hughes did.

  374. Nick in SF at CLT December 28th, 2009 at 7:43 am

    Interesting, I had to pay $100 to a music consultant just to make sure I had no Streisand music in any medium.

  375. GreenBeret7 December 28th, 2009 at 7:45 am

    Let’s just get over the Chamberlain/Hughes crap. Nobody knows where they will be at the start of the season. NYY is in the enviable position of having two young talented pitchers who could either pitch in the rotation or the bullpen.

    It’s HOF time and the writers again have their chance to screw up the voting.

    The Veteran’s Committee botched their shot by not selecting Jim Kaat, Tommy John, Gil Hodges and Ron Santo. The Executive Committee is still holding it’s grudge by keeping out Marvin Miller and Charles Finley.

    My top ten choices in order are:

    1. Bert Blyleven
    2. Andre Dawson
    3. Fred McGriff
    4. Dale Murphy
    5. Tim Raines
    6. Lee Smith
    7. Alan Tramell
    8. Dave Parker
    9. Al Oliver
    10. Tony Oliva

    I don’t think that Roberto Alomar and Barry Larkin are first ballot worthy.

    Perhaps the boys in charge of the blog can write an article on the candidates and their views on HOF worthiness.

  376. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 28th, 2009 at 7:51 am

    Nick in SF at CLT -

    To each their own. :)

    I have 18 LPs and then the CDs that I bought after. So, just about everything she ever recorded. I used to idolize her. I still love her voice.

  377. GreenBeret7 December 28th, 2009 at 7:51 am

    Sctratch Tony Oliva from my list. He belongs in the Veteran’s Committee.

  378. blake December 28th, 2009 at 7:54 am

    Blylevin should already be in the HOF. I think Larkin and Alomar will get in eventually but probably not this year. I’d like to see the Hawk get in as we’ll..

  379. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 28th, 2009 at 7:54 am

    Wow, GB7 – from what I’ve been listening to, it sure seems like Alomar and Larkin are “favorites.” You really do run counter, don’t you? :)

    McGriff was getting a lot of talking up, too, though, as well as Dawson.

  380. upstate kate December 28th, 2009 at 7:57 am

    I know it is not possible but I wish both Joba and Phil had the opportunity to start.

    GB7
    how is it going? Still smoke free I hope!

    I had a very Yankee Christmas. Between my husband and my son I got 2 posters, 2 T-shirts, the WS DVD series, and a Jeter road sign…no puppy tho, which was the other thing on my list.

  381. GreenBeret7 December 28th, 2009 at 8:01 am

    Doreen – Ain’t it Just “Grand”?
    December 28th, 2009 at 7:54 am
    Wow, GB7 – from what I’ve been listening to, it sure seems like Alomar and Larkin are “favorites.” You really do run counter, don’t you?

    McGriff was getting a lot of talking up, too, though, as well as Dawson.

    ————————————————————

    Larkin and Alomar will get in, but, I just don’t think that they were first ballot types…especially Larkin, who numbers are very close to Alan Tramell’s. My non-pick of Alomar has zero to do with the spitting incident.

    I know that it goes against the “you’re not a true yankee fan for not selecting Mattingly”, but, honestly, I don’t thin that he’s anything more than borderline, like Puckett and Garvey. They all had nearly identical numbers.

  382. GreenBeret7 December 28th, 2009 at 8:06 am

    upstate kate
    December 28th, 2009 at 7:57 am
    I know it is not possible but I wish both Joba and Phil had the opportunity to start.

    GB7
    how is it going? Still smoke free I hope!

    I had a very Yankee Christmas. Between my husband and my son I got 2 posters, 2 T-shirts, the WS DVD series, and a Jeter road sign…no puppy tho, which was the other thing on my list.

    ————————————————————

    Good morning, Kate. I’m doing just fine, thank you. Very nice of you to ask. Hope you have had a great holiday season, so far.

    As for the cigarettes…sadly, I can’t lie. I broke down and had one last night. I’m a weak-kneed, lilly-livered smoker.

  383. joeman December 28th, 2009 at 8:07 am

    with Fla looking to dump lets ask about Cody Ross(LF) & bring Bonifaco(can play all in & of positions) back with him.

    for me joba to the pen,he looks more comfortable there

  384. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 28th, 2009 at 8:11 am

    GB7 -

    No,I can see the logic in no Mattingly. He’s a Yankee favorite and a Yankee HOF-er. But Puckett got in. The conversations that I’ve heard seem to distinguish the injuries of Mattingly vs. Puckett’s limitations (eyesight). I really wasn’t getting the rationale. It seemed to run the way of Puckett’s limitations sharply cutting off his career, while Mattingly’s limitations made his productivity decline and then he retired. They seemed to “punish” Mattingly for continuing to play through.

    So, with Alomar, do you think that Tramell should go in first as a matter of principle, in a way?

    Blyleven should be in there for sure.

  385. GreenBeret7 December 28th, 2009 at 8:14 am

    joeman
    December 28th, 2009 at 8:07 am
    with Fla looking to dump lets ask about Cody Ross(LF) & bring Bonifaco(can play all in & of positions) back with him.

    for me joba to the pen,he looks more comfortable there

    ————————————————————

    How did you dream up the thought that Florida was dumping players? Much less dumping two productive, cost effective players. The only one they have talked about moving was Uggla.

  386. GreenBeret7 December 28th, 2009 at 8:18 am

    Doreen – Ain’t it Just “Grand”?
    December 28th, 2009 at 8:11 am
    GB7 -

    No,I can see the logic in no Mattingly. He’s a Yankee favorite and a Yankee HOF-er. But Puckett got in. The conversations that I’ve heard seem to distinguish the injuries of Mattingly vs. Puckett’s limitations (eyesight). I really wasn’t getting the rationale. It seemed to run the way of Puckett’s limitations sharply cutting off his career, while Mattingly’s limitations made his productivity decline and then he retired. They seemed to “punish” Mattingly for continuing to play through.

    So, with Alomar, do you think that Tramell should go in first as a matter of principle, in a way?

    Blyleven should be in there for sure.

    ————————————————————

    Doreen, I wouldn’t compare Alomar and Tramell, but, I’d compare Tramell and Larkin. Then, too, I always thought Lou Whittaker should have been voted in. Was somewhat undecided about Willie Randolph, though.

  387. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 28th, 2009 at 8:19 am

    GB7-

    Oops!

    I meant Larkin, not Alomar. :)

  388. GreenBeret7 December 28th, 2009 at 8:22 am

    As far as Mattingly not being in, I can’t see compounding a mistake like Puckett be electing Mattingly or Garvey.. I loved Mattingly as much as any other yankee fan, but, his back and wrist injury/decline and early retirement always leads me back to the Mantle situation…What Might Have Been.

  389. GreenBeret7 December 28th, 2009 at 8:25 am

    Doreen – Ain’t it Just “Grand”?
    December 28th, 2009 at 8:19 am
    GB7-

    Oops!

    I meant Larkin, not Alomar.

    ————————————————————

    Boy, am I glad that I’m not the only one that gets cofused by my ramblings, Doreen. Were you confused by my lack of typos, or, just in shock?

  390. GreenBeret7 December 28th, 2009 at 8:25 am

    eeeerrrr….****confused***

  391. tom tresh 15 December 28th, 2009 at 8:31 am

    Pat M,

    Being from Charlotte, I am giddy about the Panthers-Giants game. It only shows Jake should not be the #1 QB.

    The question here is Should John Fox come back? To me it is who would replace him before that question is answered

  392. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 28th, 2009 at 8:34 am

    GB7 -

    I do just fine confusing myself with my own ramblings! :lol: (I don’t even see your typos anymore)

  393. joeman December 28th, 2009 at 8:40 am

    OK..then with no possible way the Yankees can get C Ross away from Fla….could Scott Podsednik be a option for LF

  394. GreenBeret7 December 28th, 2009 at 8:40 am

    Doreen – Ain’t it Just “Grand”?
    December 28th, 2009 at 8:34 am
    GB7 -

    I do just fine confusing myself with my own ramblings! (I don’t even see your typos anymore)

    ————————————————————

    LMAO. You’re such a lady. You should have been a Southern Belle in the Antebellum South. The northern version of Ms Melanie.

  395. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 28th, 2009 at 8:42 am

    GB7 -

    I HATE Miss Melanie!!!

    No one is that nice. :)

  396. GreenBeret7 December 28th, 2009 at 8:45 am

    Doreen – Ain’t it Just “Grand”?
    December 28th, 2009 at 8:42 am
    GB7 -

    I HATE Miss Melanie!!!

    No one is that nice.

    ————————————————————

    I didn’t think it polite to compare you to Ms Scarlett. She was a beauty, but, she was also a strumpet, a tart.

  397. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 28th, 2009 at 8:47 am

    GB7 -

    And I thank you for that. :)

  398. Bret the Hitman December 28th, 2009 at 8:47 am

    CB makes some solid points about the top 4 starters providing enough length to reduce the IP’s required from the bullpen which could mean Hughes goes to AAA as a starter if Joba wins the final rotation spot.

    However, if the Yankees don’t view Joba as a dominant closer and believe both he and Hughes can start, then the Yankees should add a setup guy to the bullpen. They’d have to make a trade for a cost-controlled arm with closer potential.

    I don’t like the current pen without Joba in it.

  399. GreenBeret7 December 28th, 2009 at 8:50 am

    Doreen – Ain’t it Just “Grand”?
    December 28th, 2009 at 8:47 am
    GB7 -

    And I thank you for that.

    ————————————————————

    You’re most welcome, Doreen.

    I’ve been waiting for years to use the word “strumpet” on a Yankee baseball board.

  400. Bret the Hitman December 28th, 2009 at 8:50 am

    …but maybe they can make trudge through with the current pen to the point where Hughes nears his IP limit in AAA, call him up and bolster the pen cheaply in-house.

    Do we really need a dominant setup guy to make it through 3/4 of the regular season?

    Robertson needs to show up.

  401. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 28th, 2009 at 8:57 am

    GB7 -

    LOL!!!

  402. JeterJobaCanoFan2010 December 28th, 2009 at 9:19 am

    Bret:

    I know you were joking about Joba or Phil being converted to catchers.

    Joba was a catcher in HS before being converted to a pitcher, I believe in his junior year.

  403. JeterJobaCanoFan2010 December 28th, 2009 at 9:37 am

    CHAD: Respectfully, I do not agree with you that Phil should be a starter over Joba. Phil will have his innings limit as Joba did last year. Joba just has more MLB experience under his belt.

    As others have stated in this thread, Joba should be in the rotation with no restrictions. Let him show what he really has. Those of us who have followed his career and watched him pitch some truly excellent games believe he should be in the rotation.

    Not only did Wang’s injury impact the Yankee rotation losing a #2, but it also impacted Joba’s growth. Joba could have blissfully pitched out of the #5 slot and got his innings in early.

    Another factor impacting Joba’s W-L record in 2009 was that many times when he was pitching there were several subs in the line up. I thought he did well to average about 3 runs in his time allotted on the mound. I foresee the same factor in 2010 but Joba is a stronger pitcher and will have no IP limit.

    Someone also said that pitchers are creatures of habit and last year’s Joba Rules did nothing to foster that every 5th day getting the ball habit.

    I dread the outcome of ST. One of the other will have to go to the pen which in most eyes is just a plain demotion and is not conducive to SP development for either pitcher.

  404. Ryan December 28th, 2009 at 10:09 am

    I think the Yankees might have to face that they have harvested two late inning relievers instead of two front of the rotation starters.

    1. I don’t think it’s any secret that both Joba and Hughes are prone to injury. Joba’s body and violent delivery are definitely bullpen markers and Hughes has already had numerous injuries including tired arms, leg injuries and he even broke a rib throwing a baseball.

    2.Neither is an efficient pitcher. I know that they’re both young, but neither have adjusted to pitch counts well.

    3. Hughes’ velocity goes from dominant in the bullpen to mediocre as a starter and his fastball is straight as an arrow.

  405. Ryan December 28th, 2009 at 10:23 am

    Also, the Joba rules are in place for a reason. The Yankees’ management are only trying to get the most out of their investment, and it’s not as if keeping Joe Girardi to a strict set of rules for a young starter is a bad idea– Josh Johnson, Anibal Sanchez and Ricky Nolasco would all cheers to that.

  406. Jerkface December 28th, 2009 at 11:19 am

    2.Neither is an efficient pitcher. I know that they’re both young, but neither have adjusted to pitch counts well.

    3. Hughes’ velocity goes from dominant in the bullpen to mediocre as a starter and his fastball is straight as an arrow.

    Hughes and Chamberlain were very efficient pitchers in the minors.

    Hughes fastball is not straight. Chamberlain’s is straight, its the speed that makes up for it.

  407. Josh from Brooklyn December 28th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    (original post on 12/27 at 11pm)

    Tucker, Irish, thanks for the kudos fellas… and I agree with Tucker, that if we had two slots in the starting rotation available, I would give both a shot at starting in 2010. That said, with only one starting role open, the debate isn’t who is over or underrated… it’s who is best built for the rotation vs the pen. I believe the data supports Joba for the rotation and Phil for the 8th inning.

    Pat M immediately responded back to my post yesterday with throwing Hughes’ minor league scouting report at me. In my original post, I referenced the fact that regardless of what his scouting report says, Hughes has been a two pitch pitcher in the majors. I have a friend that always refers to the Hughes scouting report… and it really doesn’t mean much at this point. His minor league scouting report also says that he throws 97+ as a starter. Wrong.

    For Betsy, I never said that Hughes had a ton of starts under his belt (he has 28 starts by the way), so I don’t understand where that rebuke came from. And I’m not relegating Hughes to the pen based on anything other than a comparison to Joba’s current arsenal. Certainly, Phil may develop his changeup in the future (as you say) and I hope he does. I mean, I hope the guy turns into Bob Gibson. I wish we had two spots open in the rotation, so we could give both of them a chance to start and develop. But we do not… we have one spot. I would give that spot to Joba, because he has demonstrated an ability and willingness to feature a fuller pitch mix.

    For Pat M, Blake, Rich and other folks that mention Phil’s minor league scouting report, high school performance or evolving cutter: Folks, I want Phil to succeed as much as anyone. But his PitchFx stats support my original post: Over his career, Hughes has thrown 66% four seam fastballs (straight fastball) and 23% curve balls. Therefore, 90% of the time, Phil is throwing either a fastball or curve. the remaining 10% is comprised of cutters, sliders and lastly changeups. That 90%/10% split is consistent with major league relievers. No to mention that his third favorite pitch (5% cutters) is a slight variation on a fastball.

    In response to Jerkface (love that name by the way), you are wrong about Hughes’ fastball. With only 4.5 inches of break (hardballtimes.com analysis), Hughes’ fastball movement is a full inch below league average. Therefore, the Phil Hughes fastball is indeed straighter than average. Compound that with Phil’s below average control (walks per inning) and lack of a third pitch… not a good combo for a starter.

    Again, if we had two starting spots available, I’d give them both a shot. I don’t care who is or isn’t over/under rated. What we all should care about is that Joba’s pitch mix is more varied (and evolving faster) than Phil’s. And therefore, based purely on having one slot in the rotation available, it should go to Joba.

    By the way… even though it would be nice to give both Joba and Phil a shot at starting, I really do like the Vazquez signing. A number 4 starter that will eat 200+ innings is awesome! Go Yanks!

    - Josh from brooklyn

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