Baby, it’s cold outside
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 28, 2009 
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After a morning flight out of St. Louis, I’m hanging out at the Detroit airport waiting for a plane to take me back to New York. There’s snow everywhere, and just looking out the window makes me shiver.
Seems appropriate, considering the Hot Stove has also gone stone cold.
Unless you’re a big Bob Howry fan, the weekend didn’t bring much news, and the only thing I’ve read today are a few minor league signings by the Nationals. But things might start to heat up this week as things get back to business as usual.
For now, MLBTradeRumors has a post examining the best known offers for Matt Holliday. I’m still skeptical that the Yankees will get involved – unless he’s changed his mind, Sam is as well – but I know a lot of fans are holding out hope, and given the events of last winter, it’s impossible to rule out the possibility.
One more link before I get ready for this flight, Jesus Montero ranks as the fifth-best prospect in all of baseball according to John Manuel of Baseball America. The recently traded Kyle Drabek — part of the Roy Halladay deal — ranks 16th on Manuel’s list. Meanwhile, it’s tough to argue the top three. I’m sure you know all about Strasburg and Heyward. You probably know Mike Stanton as well, but if not, I’m not sure I’ve ever heard some scouts speak so glowingly about a position prospect’s potential.
SoS: know this will not make you feel better. However, do not agree at all at what the Colts did. When you have a chance to be the best team ever, then you go for it. Superbowl winners are almost a dime dozen (there’s 40+ now). You have to go for it
What did Tom Holliday say if anyone listened to it, I’m at work and can’t..
I have nothing to back it up, of course, but I just get the feeling that Strasburg is going to follow Ben McDonald, Todd Van Poppel, and Kris Benson into #1 pick oblivion. He was a low to marginal player coming out of high school who all of a sudden developed a 100MPH fastball, or so I read. It seems to me that a lot of promise has been heaped on this kid after a very short time of being highly regarded.
who do people remember,
who won the 2002 Super Bowl?
or
which team in 1972 went undefeated and won the Super Bowl?
not having the monkey of an undefeated season following you around in the playoffs will do wonders for the colts. it clearly took down the Patriots as they lost to an inferior NYGiants team.
Mark in Tampa
December 28th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
I have nothing to back it up, of course, but I just get the feeling that Strasburg is going to follow Ben McDonald, Todd Van Poppel, and Kris Benson into #1 pick oblivion. He was a low to marginal player coming out of high school who all of a sudden developed a 100MPH fastball, or so I read. It seems to me that a lot of promise has been heaped on this kid after a very short time of being highly regarded.
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Do you think that Strasburg will outpitch David Clyde? Talk about a mishandled talent.
Stanton K’s too much. And as long as Montero’s a catcher he should be ranked ahead of the OF’s.
I hope this isn’t true. I’m reading all over the web that the Yankees are inquiring about Jermaine Dye RF soon to be 36 Jan 28 th. Damon is 36 and LF please let this be a rumor.
Phil Rogers of Chicago tribune, RAB,and Yesnetwork are sniffing it out!!
vinny,
Why go full throttle in the Jags game and then decide this week that it was all for nothing? Why not just have Manning finish the third quarter with a confortable lead and then bring in the relief pitcher? You would think they would have learned from previous years that resting players gets them ousted in the first round everytime. The one year they actually played full season. They won it all. Hopefully this isnt the same story resting players for almost a month. THIS SUCKS!
points for anyone who can name the 2002 superbowl winner, without looking.
my bad for the subject change. Am done with topic of football. I just feel almost any team can win a superbowl one year. When you have a chance to go down as the best team in the history of the NFL, you have to take the final step
I still want to know which team is going to give Damon two years at $7m per, let alone more.
vinny-b,
To me, the Colts thing is not about the perfect season so much. It is more about them cheating the other teams that the Jets are battling against for the playoffs. And cheating the integrity of the game itself by not giving an honest effort to win.
At least steroid users were doing so to gain an advantage, the Colts purposely put themselves in a postion to lose.
And I can only wonder who were on the ‘top twenty list’ say five years ago…ten years ago…how many of them panned out?
Can anyone enlighten us?
who do people remember,
who won the 2002 Super Bowl?
or
which team in 1972 went undefeated and won the Super Bowl?
=======
The Bucks. I only know this becuase my brother is a T.B. fan.
One more thing. The Giants had nothing to play for in the final game of the season that year vs. the pats and still went full throttle. Lost, but gave them confidence and momentum to finish them off in the super bowl.
Rich, my guess is zero teams..
From the 2002 season, it was the Bucs. But, i probably only know that because I live here.
blake
I agree, so the question becomes does he offer to come back for one year (assuming the Yankees have any interest), or will his pride prevent that?
Tom,
I hope your right.
Mark,
Those teams shouldnt have had to rely on another game to decide their playoff chances.
You dont get many chances in a lifetime to run the tables. They had two cakewalks left and threw in the towel. No one will remember that in a few years even if they win it all. They will only see 18-1 season which is not perfect.
I have no problem signing Jermaine Dye for 1 year for either LF or RF. He’d be fine for 1 year then we go out and lock up Carl Crawford next offseason. Sounds like a plan to me.
M, I just bought some new DVDs this week that I need to catch up on:
1) Complete Collection of Sherlock Holmes (Basil Rathbone). Jeremy Brett is my all-time favorite Holmes, but Rathbone is very good, too.
2) More Scooby Doo DVDs……I love Scooby Doo, lol
After I finish those, the Great Mouse Detective will be next on my agenda
SoS,
While I can’t deny that I’m happy about yesterday’s results, I gotta think that Coldwell’s a ‘tard.
Okay, I can see the not risking injury factor of the decision, but he had a chance to go undefeated as a rookie coach? And then his postgame was just lame. And how could he not gift that to Peyton? I mean the guy had how many seasons where they went 12-0, and then lost the bid for perfection? At least twice that I know of.
He should just come out and say that we don’t want to put our players at unnecessary risk because that’s the truth. Not say that “a perfect season wasn’t one of our goals”.
He’s not even resting players this early, and did you see the starters on the sideline? Not even watching the game. Look like they were playing a game of dice or something, huddled together.
“Do you think that Strasburg will outpitch David Clyde? Talk about a mishandled talent.”
GB7,
Don’t get me wrong, I hope Strasburg does well. It’s just that the only thing I have heard as a testament to his abilities is that he throws really hard. Well, so do a lot of guys. If that was all it tok, AJ would have several Cys by now.
As a side question, if Stasburg ends up basically having the career AJ has had, is he a bust or a success? It would be great for anybody from the 2nd round on down to have the career AJ has had, but I think you have even higher expectations when you pick a guy #1 overall.
I bet more people remember who helped the Patriots go 18-1 than remember who won the SB in 2002.
Rich, I’ve said all along that of Holliday really isn’t an option and they could get Damon for a one year deal then that’s what I would do.. Now Damons pride as you said may be a factor in that.
mel,
I dont think it was Caldwells calls but rather Bill Polians. He’s always been for resting up for the playoffs. What was idiotic is not letting the players know the game plan. You could tell that they were shocked at what was happening. Clark looked like he was going to throw up and Manning wouldnt take his helmet off looking at the once again sorry backup throw the game away. If this was in their plans from the get go. Why not just sign Jeff Garcia for the last 2 games. I told my son yesterday “Why is the kicker coming in when its first down”? Maybe the kicker would have been better.
Ooops. So busy ranting about a team I don’t even like.
Forgot to post what I meant to post.
Did you guys see the worst/best signings of ’09? Cameron and Scooteroo made the list but Lackey didn’t. lOl.
Betsy, sounds like you have an extensive collection. You know that Netflix or Blockbuster mails them right to your door, right?
S.o.S.,
Maybe they shuldn’t have to rely on the Jets losing, but I look at it this way:
If Baltimore, or any of those other teams played the Colts this year, they got the Colts full effort. The Jets obviously did not. If B’more had gotten a crack at a surrendering Colts team, they also would have won that game and would not have needed a Jets loss to get in.
“It’s just that the only thing I have heard as a testament to his abilities is that he throws really hard. Well, so do a lot of guys.”
Strasburg has good command and three good to great pitches: in addition to his fastball he has a tremendous slider and a good change up as well.
And the thing that has amazed many if not most people about his fastball is how is it possible for anyone to throw that hard while still having so much life? Strasburg’s fastball is not straight and it’s not flat.
In his first experience in pro ball, he was fantastic in the Arizona Fall League (a huge hitters league) and the scouting reports about his stuff were glowing.
There’s no guarantee with any pitcher, but if Strasburg isn’t successful it will most likely be due to injury because otherwise the tools are all there.
“shuldn’t have”
Shouldn’t have
I think I have been reading too much GB7.
The needle is moving. Looks like DeRosa is close to signing with the Giants.
M, I like owning my own – and I have very few movies as I’m not a movie person. Most of my DVDs are tv shows…older ones in particular.
I have no prob. with a Reed Johnson/Gardner platoon.
Mark in Tampa
December 28th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
“Do you think that Strasburg will outpitch David Clyde? Talk about a mishandled talent.”
GB7,
Don’t get me wrong, I hope Strasburg does well. It’s just that the only thing I have heard as a testament to his abilities is that he throws really hard. Well, so do a lot of guys. If that was all it tok, AJ would have several Cys by now.
As a side question, if Stasburg ends up basically having the career AJ has had, is he a bust or a success? It would be great for anybody from the 2nd round on down to have the career AJ has had, but I think you have even higher expectations when you pick a guy #1 overall.
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I’m hoping that strasburgh pitches well, too…except when ….well, you know.
People, especially the “experts” are really downplaying or dismissing Montero’s defensive abilities. He’ll be better than Piazza, how wasn’t as bad as people claim. he just couldn’t throw. Montero’s grown considerably as a defensive catcher in 3 years, and the fail to mention that he just turned 20 last month. He has a ways to go, but, he’s getting there. If he becomes a Jorge Posada on defense, NYY and their fans will go crazy with him in the lineup. He has access to some great instructors. When he attends the Tony Pena Finishing And Charm School, he’s going to be something.
Mark,
I get what your saying but a team like the Ravens for example had lots of chances to not get into this situation. They have lost about 4 to 5 games in the last minuts of the 4th quarter. Even yesterday, they blew 2 touchdowns by commiting penalties or flat out dropping a touchdown pass. If they dont make the playoffs, they shouldnt look at the Colts games. But focus on the lack of focus they had in the 4th quarter of a handfull of games.
The problem with Damon is that now the Yanks need a RH bat for the OF/DH/PH not another lefty.
Dye is not a bad one-year choice for limited duty with late inning defensive support. Don’t know what he costs, but I don’t have to write the checks.
Replacing Matsui, Damon and Nay with Dye, Granderson and Johnson looks pretty good to me… especially with the addition of Vasquez to the rotation.
Too bad – DeRosa would have been a nice fit. I guess he was too rich for the Yankees blood. The Yankees are really serious about their budget. I don’t get what is so special about being under $200 million – if they are doing this so that other teams and fans don’t get upset, that would be annoying to say the least.
DeRosa would have been mice…. can play 9 positions with good defense and has pop in his bat. Would not be an automatic out if we rest someone, would let Gardner be the 4th OFer, and is considered one of the best clubhouse guys in the game.
Guess he didn’t fit our budget though.
The best way for Cashman to keep Hollidays price low is for the Yankees to seem as disinterested as possible.
Mark in Tampa
December 28th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
“shuldn’t have”
Shouldn’t have
I think I have been reading too much GB7.
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hey…don’t blame me for your poor typing. If you’ll notice, since the twins and the dog haven’t been on the computer, there are fewer errors.
Bad Scooter
December 28th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
I have no problem signing Jermaine Dye for 1 year for either LF or RF. He’d be fine for 1 year then we go out and lock up Carl Crawford next offseason. Sounds like a plan to me.
Yes, I agree!
Count me in the group who thinks what the Colts did last night was far worse than EVERYTHING Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Alex, Ortiz, Manny et al did combined.
How anyone can shrug their shoulders at a blatant, obvious refusal to compete is beyond me. The NFL Commissioner is really worried about everything Ochocinko does, but he’s silent on one of his teams not trying to win and thus manipulating a playoff race and screwing among others Houston by handing a game to the Jets,
Disgraceful!
Put me in for Dye in ’10. He gives us back the homers that we lost losing both Damon and Matsui from the right side and protects Alex at the 5th spot.
I noticed that we are going to have 33% of our starting lineup changed. Can someon tell me when the last time someone had this much change and still repeated as champs?
Does someone know when Nady would be ready to play??
The Giants had the #1 seed locked up last year and rested their guys going into Minnesota…. and Minnesota needed that game to get into the playoffs, and they got to play against the Giants backups, which deprived the Bears a chance to grab the last WC (though they ended up losing to Houston anyway, which enabled Philly to grab the 6th seed)
In 07, the Titans beat the Jim Sorgi-led Colts in the final week of the season to make the playoffs, to the ire of Cleveland fans who won earlier in the day.
This happens almost every year…. people killing the Colts are in the wrong. Some teams get breaks, some don’t. The Jets got a break, every year, some team gets one. Teams who have things locked up earned the right to play however they want.
Colts’ laydown: worse than Pearl Harbor?
Holliday now > Dye + Crawford next year.
Holliday is a better player than Crawford and he can help the 2010 team. If they choose not to sign Holliday because they really are on a tight budget then fine but if they use that money to turn around and pursue Crawford next year then I think its a bad move. The type of player that Holliday is ages much better than the type Crawford is.
If it wasn’t for that God-awful contract of Aaron Rowand’s, he’d be a decent answer for left field, but, not at $36 mil over 3 years. Derosa’s going to see his value and numbers drop into the toilet in that ballpark.
Blake, but again – the price is not going to drop. What, is Cash waiting to see if the Cards pull or reduce their offer? I think a lot of this is wishful thinking (not directing this to you).
What do you think is more important to Peyton Manning and Indianapolis fans?
2nd Ring or undefeated season.
DeRosa doesn’t play good D anywhere. Glad we’re passing.
dan l.
December 28th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
I have no prob. with a Reed Johnson/Gardner platoon.
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Reed Johnson stinks. May aswell let this kid Hoffman have a shot in a platoon.
I’m actually hoping Hoffman makes the team to help push Gardy. The Melky pushing Gardy and Gardy pushing Melky thing worked vary well last year.
I don’t see the Yankees signing or trading for a LF that will play more than Gardy.
Add either a utility guy like Hairston that can play both OF and IF or add a power bat off the bench guy like Heinski.
I think we will see Gardy out there a lot both starting and off the bench late in games.
The Jets controlling their own destiny has almost nothing to do with the Colts resting their starters. Because even if the Jets won, it might not have mattered if they didn’t get a miraculous series of results go their way in the early games.
Miami lost.
Denver lost
Baltimore lost.
Tennessee lost.
Jacksonville lost.
The best case scenarios all occurred. That is why the Jets control their own destiny. They could have beaten the Colts and it could have been essentially meaningless. The teams above have no right to complain, they didn’t take care of business and them losing enabled the Jets to control their own destiny. I’d say the Jets having all 5 teams above losing was more of a break than the Colts resting their starters.
Cando,
Good point. Im a Colts fan and the only thing im upset about is that we didnt get the oportunity for perfection. Its not like Manning was on his back for most of the game. They have a bye week to rest players. They also have a young recieving core that should be getting as many reps in the real game as possible. Throwing in a scrub doesnt accomplish that. Offense is all about rythem. Taking 3 weeks off doesnt help it. Rest a banged up defense if you want but not so much the offense.
Betsy, I’m not sure which price you are referring to. The cards offer isn’t going to drop but that offer is a very good deal for Holliday 5/80. If you’re talking about Boras price then it will drop because nobody is going to pay it. As I said if the Yankees can’t fit Holliday in their budget then that’s fine but Crawford will cost just as much or more depending on the economy and he’s not as good as Holliday.
But how does resting guarantee you a ring? And why not rest next week?
“The teams above have no right to complain, they didn’t take care of business and them losing enabled the Jets to control their own destiny. I’d say the Jets having all 5 teams above losing was more of a break than the Colts resting their starters.”
I get that, but they lost to teams who playing to win. The Colts weren’t. I am not talking about whether those teams should be complaining about the Colts or about themselves, I am talking about all of the teams in the NFL attempting to win a game this past week, except one. I have a problem with this mentality every year, no matter who does it and against whom.
Reed Johnson is 33 yrs old with a chronic back problem.
And he is strictly a platoon player. If there is an injury to one of the OFers and Reed Johnson has to play full=time, he is a HUGE liability considering he can’t hit righties and roughly 70% of baseball is right handed.
I agree, you might as well go with Hoffmann if you sign Reed Johnson. He is cheaper, healthier, and younger. Though neither option is appealing. Stop trying to put duct tape on the LF problem and get a real solution rather than this platoon nonsense….
blake
December 28th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Holliday now > Dye + Crawford next year.
Holliday is a better player than Crawford and he can help the 2010 team. If they choose not to sign Holliday because they really are on a tight budget then fine but if they use that money to turn around and pursue Crawford next year then I think its a bad move. The type of player that Holliday is ages much better than the type Crawford is.
===========================================================
I agree that Holliday is a better player/solution but he’s going to cost a lot more than Crawford.
No way Crawford is getting the 80-100mil contract that Holliday is going to get. I see Crawford getting 1/2 of what Holliday is going to get.
blake,
I listened to most of the Tom Holliday interview. He indicated Matt’s playing it very close to the vest and he (Tom) seems unsure what’s going on at this point. Tom said he’s surprised a decision hasn’t been made. Tom said he believes Matt’s numbers are Tex’s and can’t believe Tex got the deal he did last year.
Tom did elude to Matt possibly feeling he has some unfinished business in St. Louis.
As Lost In said, keep in mind this was a St. Louis radio station so there questions were geared that way.
Patrick,
Why do you think he’s going to get half of what Holliday recieves this year? Isnt he the Crown Jewel of outfielders coming out next year? Wouldnt you think that the teams that missed out on Holliday will be going all in on Crawford. BTW, i am one who thinks Holliday is better player. Thoughts?
The funny part is that, the only time this decade that the Colts didn’t really rest guys and had to play hard the whole way (2006), they won a championship. They didn’t get a bye either and had to play the Chiefs in the wild-card round.
IIRC, that is the only time this decade where Manning played the full-game in the finale and they didn’t coast down the stretch.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Mets will be HOT for Crawford if they miss out on Bay… he is a Citi-Field type player.
The Angels could use him as well, he is a perfect player for them.
I could see the bidding for Crawford matching that of Holliday. Teams fall in love with these speed/defense players who have some power.
Cardinals are desperate for Holliday. When Alberts’s contract comes up they want Holliday already on board. The Cardinals will have had Pujols for 10 yrs at 100mm he should test the market. imo
Cards friends of mine are sick with worry, he’ll try FA, and they can’t afford him.
To me it’s not about getting guys rest, it’s about keeping them out of the hospital.
I can’t see Cashman adding Dye to the team. It really goes against his philosophy of the team getting younger. He currently has Gardner/Hoffmann to play LF and fill in for late inning defense, and they both make close to league minimum. Going into the season with these two allows him room/flexibility to make a move mid-season to improve the OF if he wants to.
There’s no doubt that Dye would provide a better bat in LF, but he will cost us more money, will make us older, and weaken us defensively.
Let’s see what happens. Something to talk about other than the Colts!!!
Crawford will get a very similar deal to what Holliday and may get more if the economy is better next year and more teams are in a position to spend. Another thing to consider is that Crawford may never even become a free agent. If the Yankees sign Holliday this year then they would have no position player needs next year (Montero and Posada can share C/DH) and the yanks can out their full focus on cliff lee or whatever pitching they choose. Signing a stopgap this year means they will face this whole situation all over again next year in addition to Jeter, Rivera, and the pitching staff…
The Colts don’t owe an explanation to anyone – the media, the fans, etc.
They earned the right to sit their starters by playing the best football over the course of the regular season and wrapping up homefield.
The goal of each team is to win the Super Bowl, not go undefeated.
No one believes otherwise except a handful of delusional fans and sportswriters, who proffer that the Colts have shamed the game. That’s simply an absurd notion.
Whether the Colts win the title this year, it won’t be because they sat their starters for a game and a half, which were essentially meaningless to them.
What the 1972 Dolphins did was certainly a remarkable accomplishment, but that team isn’t even close to being the greatest of all time.
So Mercury Morris, a running back who only surpassed 1,000 yards once in his career gets to pop a champagne cork. Who cares?
And comparing what the Colts did to a group of steroid cheats is silly, specious logic at best.
I’m sure that if Manning had stayed in the game and broken his leg, everyone would be shouting from the rooftops about how stupid it was for him to be in there in a game whose outcome had no bearing on the playoff seeding.
Who’s Tom Holliday? Matt’s dad? Is he someone famous? Because he sure gets a lot of ink and air time.
Patrick,
At this point it’s not clear if Holliday’s going to get those numbers either!
I hope the Yankees offer Matt Holliday a 6 year deal at $18 mil. per, this would lock up a very good player through his prime years. I have a gut feeling the Red Sox are going to get back into a deal for Holliday, and this wouls give them the needed power to compliment the pitching staff, that has to rank in the top 3 in MLB.
As a business owner, I’ve halted major purchases/acquisitions because I hope that next year is going to be better financially. Irrespective of my balance sheet, that’s just a good business decision.
The Yankees are a far more astute organization than mine, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they made the same decision and are holding the line on spending this year. After all, despite the new staduim, attendance was down, advertising revenue decreased, and payments on their construction loan/bond obligations continue. Oh, and for all those who talk about YES network and it’s revenues, the YES network is only partly owned by the Yankees, and you can not use revenue from one entity to cover payroll or expenses in another.
Cash apparently has been told to hold the line on spending, and seems to be holding firm on that.
Even if the Cardinals sign Holliday, that doesn’t guarantee that Pujols will sign with them once this current payroll expires.
Of course he might, but how can that club expect to field a playoff contending team when 40% or so of their payroll is going to go to two players?
S.o.S.
Re: Your Colts (from the perspective of a Pats’ Fan)
(1) There is no evidence that “resting” players (4 weeks before the playoffs) improves the chances of playoff success.
(2a) There is a problem when a team can “throw” a game when it impacts playoff berths.
(2b) What’s the difference in “throwing” games to “rest” for the playoffs, and “throwing” games to get a better draft choice? Both are for “the good of the team.” (The latter would not be tolerated.)
(3) Wasn’t Manning playing in the 4th quarter of a St. Louis blowout this year? Couldn’t he have been hurt then? Why is that different?
I won’t even go into how teams that are out of contention could use meaningless games (for them) to evaluate rookies for next year. Typically, teams in this position (e.g. Tampa Bay yesterday) eschew this strategy in order to play spoiler, and preserve the integrity of the game.
What the Colts did smells in so many ways. Reminds me of a comment from “Fast Eddie” Felson in “The Hustler,” when he told his manager that he was a “Small-time Charlie” because he didn’t understand the importance of beating Minnesota Fats.
P.S. You have a hell of a team – to kick away this opportunity is mind-boggling. No sense of history, no sense of proportion.
There are pros and cons to Dye coming to the Yanks. First, he would be in RF…and Swisher would be moved to LF. This makes our OF weaker, as Dye is a negative defender in RF and Swish is barely average in LF. Swisher is a plus defender, therefore he should stay in RF.
Dye brings RH power, and a 5hole hitter…however at his age, and injuries, can we be sure he would hit 270 35 100? Doubtful. So to ME, I think the best thing to look at is who can caddy with Gardner in LF.
It has to be a “cheap” RH, so stop thinking Ankiel, Damon, etc. Reed Johnson and Marlon Byrd so far fit that bill. However, Byrd is basicallly Melky Cabrera….ie league average. Reed Johnson rakes vs LH, therefore I think he actually compliments Gardner well.
Reed Johnson or Matt Holliday are the only 2 I can currently see for LF.
S.o.S.
December 28th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Patrick,
Why do you think he’s going to get half of what Holliday recieves this year? Isnt he the Crown Jewel of outfielders coming out next year? Wouldnt you think that the teams that missed out on Holliday will be going all in on Crawford. BTW, i am one who thinks Holliday is better player. Thoughts?
Matt Holliday is a .310, 30HR, 110RBI, #4 hitter that plays above average LF and is in his prime years.
Carl Crawford is not nearly the run producer Holliday is. He’s a #2 hitter that steals lots of bases and plays great LF; kind of like a younger Johnnie Damon. Johnnie Damon signed a 4 year 52 mil deal with the Yankees to be the CF and lead of guy in in 2005. Carl Crawford is not worth more than Johnie was back then.
IMHO Matt Holliday is worth much, much more than Carl Crawford no matter if it’s 2010 or 2011.
I think the Yanks see Crawford’s skill set as a better fit.
They’re not exactly starved for power.
All I have to say is that Chad Curtis was in left on the 98 team. This lineup is better. We really don’t need much of an upgrade for this team to do well. Gardy just needs some help. Solid defense and a good arm is what we really need from our left fielder.
Repost:
GB: I’m sure you know why Allie Reynolds was nicknamed the SuperChief.
How can the Cardinals afford to give Holliday what he wants and then give Albert a mega-contract? Aren’t they a “small-market team”? Or at least operate like one?
Brian (Red Sox Fan) December 28th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
What the Colts did smells in so many ways. Reminds me of a comment from “Fast Eddie” Felson in “The Hustler,” when he told his manager that he was a “Small-time Charlie” because he didn’t understand the importance of beating Minnesota Fats.
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Eerily similar to Tito’s “rope-a-dope”
JJ December 28th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Mets will be HOT for Crawford if they miss out on Bay… he is a Citi-Field type player.
The Angels could use him as well, he is a perfect player for them.
I could see the bidding for Crawford matching that of Holliday. Teams fall in love with these speed/defense players who have some power.
==========================================================
Not sure if it’s tampering (someone help me) but Crawford might have a “gentleman’s agreement” with the Yanks for next season. Is that beyond the realm of possibility? If true, it would explain everything.
“I think the Yanks see Crawford’s skill set as a better fit.”
Except that they have no solid #5 hitter. Posada is that type, but he is probably only going to play @110 games this year.
If Crawford were on the market now, he would probably getting offers in the 4/50M or 5/60M range. Next year, who knows? Could be 6/100M just to start talks, ot the market could be worse, and you could get him for 4/45M.
It’s the chance you take, but i think Holliday at 5/80M is much less than what anybody thought it would take to get him. Thing is, he hasn’t agreed to it yet, they still think he is getting @120M from somewhere.
rconn23, every one of the starters who were pulled out of that game were angry about the decision. Not one of them felt it was right, despite the talking afterward.
Think that won’t affect how they will respond to a coach who threw away a perfect season? Its been shown that there is no evidence that shows that resting starters or having them play has helped in regard to the post season games. With some teams it has taken them out of their timing.
When you have the chance at something incredible does it make sense to let it go? Getting rest hadn’t helped the Colts in the past. Having a mission can mean a lot more than folding in a game that should have been winnable.
If I were Manning I wouldn’t be able to even look at that POS coach, Caldwell, without wanting to punch his lights out. I would be telling the FO that its either they fire him or trade me.
And just so you know, Shulla has made a fortune due to his perfect season. He still gets offers for speaking about it.
Being able to have the chance to be a part of something that rare means quite a bit more than just a championship.
I’d rather see Jerry Hairston on the team than Reed Johnson.
Hairston can fill other rolls off the bench. Reed Johnson is only a 150 AB platoon against LH pitching.
Blake, Boras’ price is not going to drop below what the Cards have already offered – that’s my point.
Clearly the Yankees either don’t want Holliday at any price or they don’t want to pay anything close to what the Cards have already offered. Either way, the results are the same: no Holliday.
Bronx Jeers – I honestly don’t remember Tito’s “rope a dope.” What was that? Something devilishly clever, I hope.
Being able to have the chance to be a part of something that rare means quite a bit more than just a championship.
===============================
Abda, I’m with you but aint it about time the Jets got a break. Might get another one next week, but only they could find a way to botch it up.
Tito messed up the rope : dope ratio.
Tom Holliday talking down Tex? This guy gets more attention for being the father of a ballplayer than anyone except Joba’s dad (and Harlan deserved the attention he got). It’s just curious to me why Tom Holliday is being interviewed and John Lackey’s dad wasn’t……
True the Yanks don’t have that perfect #5 hitter but they lead the league in slightly flawed ones.
“As a business owner, I’ve halted major purchases/acquisitions because I hope that next year is going to be better financially. Irrespective of my balance sheet, that’s just a good business decision.”
That really depends on how much available capital a firm has at hand doesn’t it?
People who are cash rich (and those are few) are finding relative bargains right now and are looking for opportunities.
My sense is that the Yankees are likely to be well capitalized.
“Boras’ price is not going to drop below what the Cards have already offered – that’s my point.”
Betsy,
It might, if the Cards publicly remove that offer. I am not counting on Holliday, but he is the obvious choice, IMO. And I normally like to see the Yankees go with homegrown players when possible. It doesn’t cost me anything to keep thinking the Yanks will eventually get him on a reasonable deal.
Crawford= young too, a plus!!
mick,
It really seems as if the Yanks have their eye on Crawford. They are showing no interest in Holliday and don’t seem to want to find any long-term solution this year. The farm also has nobody who will be ready in the next couple of years.
Unless they want to keep using LF as a blackhole, something has to be up. Cashman’s comments about how “impressive” the 2010 FA class is when talking might be another hint.
Brian,
I don’t think it was Tito’s plan per se.
It was Dan Shaugnessy who came up with it after the Sox were being criticized for resting some guys in that last series against the Yanks.
Bronx Jeers December 28th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
True the Yanks don’t have that perfect #5 hitter but they lead the league in slightly flawed ones.
========================================================
True. Granderson could hit 5th against rightys, as well as Posada vs RH or LH pitchers. They will prob pickup a righty LF whether its Reed Johnson, Nady , etc.. so be it.
It’s just curious to me why Tom Holliday is being interviewed and John Lackey’s dad wasn’t……
Perhaps, John’s embarrassed about his dad’s voice?
CB
December 28th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
“As a business owner, I’ve halted major purchases/acquisitions because I hope that next year is going to be better financially. Irrespective of my balance sheet, that’s just a good business decision.”
That really depends on how much available capital a firm has at hand doesn’t it?
People who are cash rich (and those are few) are finding relative bargains right now and are looking for opportunities.
My sense is that the Yankees are likely to be well capitalized.
———————————————————–
Agreed. But that does not remove the possibility of them being relatively conservative with their spending for a year. Maybe their projected payroll commitments from last season’s signings are affecting them more than expected.
Unless they want to keep using LF as a blackhole, something has to be up. Cashman’s comments about how “impressive” the 2010 FA class is when talking might be another hint.
=====================================================
I guess it’s legal, we play by the rules dealt us.
Aba, I completely agree. Now, maybe it came from the Colts’ FO, but if it didn’t, Caldwell probably lost the respect of Manning, the team and for sure the fans. If the Colts don’t win the SB, the fans will want Caldwell’s head on a platter…and rightly so. He’s afraid his players are going to get hurt? This is not a pansy sport – for pete’s sake, they play games in the rawest of conditions and on a regular basis.
If the Yankees truely are going to stay under the 200mil mark, there is no money for another big time player this year.
And, for next year with Mo and Jeter in need of new contracts, you’ll probably only see them pay another big time FA pither in addition.
Crawford would be the perfect fit in LF but I only see the Yankees paying big bucks to another OF if Swish is moved after this year.
Cards for 5/$80 is a steal
He is not worth 1\2 as much as Teixeria, yet he is going to be paid like he is.
He went from overrated to considerably underrated. It was just bad timing for him… the economy sucks, the Yankees have a “budget”, and big-spending teams like the Rangers, Chi Sox, Angels, Giants, Mets, Cubs etc. have financial and/or ownership issues. Red Sox tried to get him but couldn’t wait around forever.
Rex Ryan doesn’t deserve to get anything handed to him. From the huge blimp-like stomach he has, he looks like he gluttonously grabs any and everything he can, to shove it down his throat. What an example he sets for a sports coach.
For Manning this will probably be something that will remain a negative for him for the rest of his life. It will remain a question of what if.
Caldwell has no guts. No guts… no glory. The talk about this gutless performance of his will be remembered as something that could have been, and will always carry a lot of regret from every one of the players on that team.
If the Colts don’t win it all, it becomes even worse.
“But that does not remove the possibility of them being relatively conservative with their spending for a year. Maybe their projected payroll commitments from last season’s signings are affecting them more than expected.”
Absolutely. It really depends on how cash flow is.
The point I was trying to raise is that this very well might be a particularly good time to invest if you have cash on hand.
There aren’t many who have slack capital, but if you do it puts you in a very powerful position.
I’d guess the yankees are in that position. They’re 2009 revenues were enormous – much higher than expected.
But as a privately held company not many know what their books look like.
Bronx – Thanks for the explanation. Maybe Tito should have rested some people against the Angels.
Betsy, no Hollidays price isn’t going to drop below what the cards have offered but as I said 5/80 or even slightly more than that is a good deal. Nothing is clear at this point unless you choose to 100% believe what Cashman says to the media. As I said the best way to keep Hollidays price low is for the Yankees to seem as uninterested as possible. Cashman may be telling the truth, they may be on a strict budget, but I think there is at least some possibilty that he is playing possum.
CB, do you think it makes sense for the Yankees to be so unyielding on this budget? We know they have spent a lot of $$ – that’s not in doubt – and that they have made a lot of $$$, especially this year, off of a WS. I don’t love the idea of giving out another long, bulky contract, but Holliday does make a lot of sense. There’s really no reason for them to be standing so firm on being under $200 million unless they care way too much about what the other teams think. They could get someone cheaper than Holliday, but he won’t be anywhere near as good. It’s not like they get bonus points for having lesser players on their team.
Abdababdaserser,
I had to re-read the beginning of your post to see if you were talking about Rex Ryan, because it sounded like Charlie Weis by the time I got done.
Was reading the Chicago Tribune, article on MLB rumors tab. They are convinced the Yankees are in stealth mode for Holliday.
Could this be the reason Boras was so stupid with Damon’s contract demand. If so he allowed Damon to leave on his own terms, while moving another client to his favorite customer.
Are the Yankees the mystery team in Boras’s plan?
Abda,
You are projecting your feelings on what you think are the sentiment of the Colts players. No team goes into the season shooting for a perfect record.
The goal, is, was and will always be to win the Super Bowl.
People point to “there’s no evidence” that sitting players has helped a team win the Super Bowl. There’s no evidence either way, at least nothing that can be proven.
The Partiots played their starters to try to achieve the pefect season, and they lost the Super Bowl. That doesn’t mean they lost to the Giants because they went full tilt, it just means they lost to a team that played better on a particular night. Same for the Colts in previous postseasons.
And who cares whether an undefeated season has helped Don Shula get more speaking engagements except, well, Don Shula?
“When he attends the Tony Pena Finishing And Charm School, he’s going to be something.”
GB7:
When I first read it I thought you had written Tony Pena’s “Fishing” and Charm School. I’m thinking to myself, “I didn’t know Pena liked to fish. You know what? He doesn’t look like a guy who likes to fish.” Then I re-read it and realized I wasn’t having a “senior” moment, I was just having a stupid moment. But now I just know I’m going to have that stupid tag in my brain everytime I see Pena and it’ll be “Pena” and “Fisherman” crawling across my frontal lobe together.
Man, the brain really starts to go soft after 50. Along with a few other things.
GB, I have a question for you. What’s your take regarding how baseball players get raked over the coals for taking PED’s and football seems to get a free pass. Really curious to your viewpoint, and other posters as well of course.
Apple/tree theory demands keeping as far away from Papa Lackey as possible.
And on that note, good afternoon.
If no significant move to fill LF is made, and the Rays are out of it this season, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see Crawford patrolling LF in pinstripes at the trade deadline.
“do you think it makes sense for the Yankees to be so unyielding on this budget? ”
I don’t think they are unyielding. I think it just depends on the opportunity.
If they could have worked out a trade for say Halladay or Lee they would have spent heavily on whatever was required to get them signed to an extension.
I recommend this blog entry:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....l-approach
CB, It’s a buyers market…People with cash are buying up prime real estate and the such as they are taking full advantage of this market…..Matt Holliday is a fine ballplayer who has been marked down to the point where he has to be considered a bargin…..He will out perform his contract during the 5 year tenure…..somewhat surprised that they have yet to move on him yet and take full advantage of their resources in this regard
CB – I agree that, if the Yankees are flush (and I think they are), the price is right for Holliday.
Having said that, they may not be as comfortable with their revenue projections for the “out years” of these long term contracts.
Or, (I hope, I hope), Hal just wants to put the money in his pocket prior to a future sale.
So if the Yankees sign a stopgap this year and then sign Crawford, cliff Lee, and resign Jeter and Rivera next year then won’t their payroll skyrocket over 200 million?
Blake, I still not sure what you’re getting at. At this point, what good does it do for Cashman to pretend he’s not interested? The offer is not being pulled and it’s not being reduced. Holliday is going to get at least 5/80.
This decision didnt come from Caldwell. More like Polian. Most of the players didnt even have a clue they were going to get pulled during the game. Hopefully the ending to this story isnt like the other years they decided to take their foot off the gass. All i can think about is the one year they didnt rest, they won. The other thing that sucks is their 23 game winning streak was snapped. Who knows if any team will ever reach that number. It would have been nice to extend it and make it harder.
Then again, looking at their rotation, improved bullpen, and key 3 of Longoria, Crawford, and Pena, they shouldn’t be out of it.
Along with a few other things.
===================================
Murph…a few?
Hal did say the ceiling on the budget was not hard where . So if it’s reasonable to him he might go higher.
I forgot where I read this, but the Yankees cleared over 100mm this pastseason.
CB, that’s true – I don’t doubt that. However, they could use a LF and Holliday would solve their problems for a few years (and buy them time to develop their OF prospects). I really hope they aren’t putting their eggs in the Carl Crawford basket; there’s no guarantee he’ll be available and once his legs go, pfft – that’s it.
Betsy
If Cash has any interest in Holliday, it is his interest to remain on the sidelines. There is no need to do anything to bid up Holliday’s asking price.
It has been reported that Holliday’s first choice is to play for the Yankees. Beyond that, Boras usually contacts the Yankees at the end of the process of negotiating big contracts because their pockets are so deep that he wants to make sure that they don’t want to be players.
In all likelihood, barring a blow away offer, Boras will call Cash and ask him if he wants Holliday at a given price. If Cash has any interest, he can then make a counteroffer, and the parties will determine if a deal is possible.
“I agree that, if the Yankees are flush (and I think they are), the price is right for Holliday.”
I think the yankees should make the investment.
I’d say the same for the Sox. I think you guys are making a mistake here not signing Holliday. I know the team wants to stay under the tax threshold but I think they are letting an opportunity pass here.
“Or, (I hope, I hope), Hal just wants to put the money in his pocket prior to a future sale.”
Sorry Brian. I don’t see this. Hal just won his first. The Yankees really have a special place in NY.
And very few business are still making money and accruing equity in this very difficult economic time.
Betsy, I’m not sure what you are getting at either. Its not that they want the price to go down, its that they don’t want it to go up. The current price is already a good deal and if the Yankees enter the fray too early then the price will go up…again I don’t know if they are actually in on Holliday but it appears they are waiting patiently to me.
Who would be interested in trading Jesus Montero (C) straight up for Desmond Jennings (OF)?
WE have Romine but a year to 2 years aways but no high grade outfielders. Not to mention we have 2 other catchers that are quality prospects.
HC
Crawford will be 30 in Aug, so he should have another 4-5 years of good legs. Anyway on our team he won’t have to run as much. Stolen base #s go down here esp in the 2 spot with Tex ,Arod and ? behind them.
Crawford is only going to be 29 next year… it isin’t like he is going to become Matsui overnight.
Figgins is going to be 32 and his speed has not diminished, and he just got a 4 yr deal.
I really don’t think Crawford will be as bad an investment as some people think. Also remember his power will increase coming to NYS as a lefty bat.
I’m not interested in even considering trading Montero until I am certain that he can’t be a passable catcher.
Crawford was born in August 81… he will be 29 on opening day 2011 and will tuen 30 later that year. He is 28 now.
CB – You’re a killjoy. The Yankees finally seemed to have figured out how to maximize their huge financial advantage. (They spent 44% more than the Sox in the last decade.)
So I’ve decided to root for new Yankee ownership (i.e. after George). If you can’t beat them, replace them.
rconn, “No team goes into the season shooting for a perfect record.”
BULL.
Complete utter BULL. I don’t know of any team going into the season is planning on losing any games. Not if they are serious about playing the games they have.
I watched the game and saw the look on the faces of the players taken out. They looked ill.
While teams will generally not succeed in having a perfect season, any team going into the season thinking they can give away any games isn’t going to do well.
To have come that far in the season undefeated means they had the brass ring nearly in their grasp. To throw away the chance because a coach wimps out and pulls the key players out without giving them that chance will certainly have ramifications.
College football teams work to have perfect seasons all the time. In pro-ball its only been done once.
Put this into a different sport. Lets say the Yankees have one more win to set a record for the number of wins in a single season, do you think Jeter, Mo, Alex, Teixeira would mind sitting out the remaining game to rest over setting that record? Do you think they would be content to say we came close but our manager wanted us to sit and rest?
I’m not a fan of any one football team. I root for certain players on a number of teams.
There was no guarantee that the Colts would have won that game with their starters, but they worked hard all season to have that chance for it, and Caldwell messed the bed. He took away any chance for it, and for a competitor that will never sit well.
Manning looked ill giving his post game. Despite his words, you see how he really felt about being pulled from the game.
Crawford has said he wants to stay in Tampa long term and was open to discussing an extension…. doesn’t sound like a guy who is going for the highest dollar.
After this year, Tampa has Burrell, Soriano, and Pena’s contracts off the books. They saved a ton of $$$ by trading Kazmir.
I’d bet he doesn’t even hit FA… which makes us passing on Holliday even more risky.
I can’t wait to see and hear an interview with Lackey especially after he throws a clunker.
I haven’t seen or heard Gomer Pyle in a number of years.
Maybe Cashman didn’t go after him for fear of his being laughed out of the Bronx.
Rich, I understand Cash not wanting the Yankees to be used to up the price of a FA, but he’s not getting (if he is interested) Holliday at lower than 5/80 as that offer is already out there. I also understand that Boras usually gives them the last call….in that case, is that what Cash may be waiting for? If so, that makes sense to me. Of course, that presumes the Yankees are interested….I don’t really believe Holliday has any particular inclination to play for the Yankees in any case.
I know I am very late to the conversation – just got in from running errands and skimmed the first part of the comments here.
The Colts: You could argue both ways. Taking out your best players doesn’t guarantee you’re going to lose the game. If he had left them in an one had gotten a serious injury in a game that wasn’t must-win for them surely would not be a preferable situation for the Colts franchise. And what is the benefit of clinching early if you can’t use the extra time to get your team ready for the playoffs? (Didn’t Girardi basically do the same for the Yankees, rest-wise?)
On the other hand, no, it’s not particularly fair to other teams if the Jets didn’t have to play against the “usual” Colts team. But, again, they still had to play and win and they did.
I don’t see it as cheating. I see it as taking advantage of a situation to your own advantage.
But I can see how fans of (and members of) the teams the Jets were competing with for a playoff spot could be pretty upset.
Caldwell messed the bed.
============================
Abda, Was this his call or mgmnts? Either way it smells bad. But I love it, as a Jet fan.
sense to me. Of course, that presumes the Yankees are interested….I don’t really believe Holliday has any particular inclination to play for the Yankees in any case.
==========================================
Betsy, just curious? What are you basing this on? How would you know what’s on Matt’s mind? If it’s just a gut feeling, fine.
“The Yankees finally seemed to have figured out how to maximize their huge financial advantage. (They spent 44% more than the Sox in the last decade.)”
Yes. Yes they have.
I think they’re done spending money stupidly.
For a decade there was a lot of dismissive snickering about how stupid the yankees have been in terms of spending.
Now they are spending the same amount of money and the snickering has morphed into outrage.
The only difference is the level of decision making.
Now Cashman is saying that Nady doesn’t fit their budget..ill play for free they can sign me..
How much does Nady want?
I don’t think it makes much sence to go out and pay 4-5mil to get a player than may not be much better than Gardy. They were willing to play Gardy in CF last year; with Grandy in CF this year replacing Damon’s power #s, Gardy and maybe another cheap RH version is just fine. If Hoffman makes the team then it’s him. I like a Hairston utility type on a 1 year 1.5-2mil contract added to the mix. If Hoffman can’t cut it then Hairston plays some LF. There will be other options in July as well. I also think you’ll see some minor league deals made to add depth at AAA.
blake, do you play a mean LF?
mick :
It’s a question of how much does Scott Boras want for his client.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....s-cli.html
Abda -
I just read your take on how the players who were taken out felt.
That’s a whole different enchilada…
Mick, I could probably offer a throwing upgrade over last year in LF (actually my wife probably could too) but other than that I make no promises..haven’t played in a little while now but hey I would definatley fit the budget.
mick,
It was managements decision(bill polian). My only beef is this is a chance of a lifetime and they had two winnable games left. Im starting to wonder if they didnt want all the pressure of going undefeated through out the playoffs on them. Why play them last game when they wrapped up homefield advantage and sit them in this game with a bye week coming after next weeks game. I would have played them minimal for next week. Being that they could beat Buffalo with backups or if this was their plan all along. Why not sign Garcia for the remaining games?
stan
the question remains the same.
Mick, I could probably offer a throwing upgrade over last year in LF (actually my wife probably could too) but other than that I make no promises..haven’t played in a little while now but hey I would definatley fit the budget.
_____________________
Blake, here is the thing. You could man left field next year and the Yanks would likely still score 900 runs and make the postseason.
No kidding.
What is Nady asking for?
At any rate, perhaps it can be looked at that any amount of money spent on a questionable player (coming back from a second TJ) is too much. Because if he ends up not being able to play, you end up either spending twice (to get a player of approx. equal calibre) or bringing up someone from the minors that you would not normally.
I don’t think Nady’s the answer in LF. If they’re going to spend money at all, it should be “good” money, you know?
I don’t know what Nady wants but he’s a boras client so I’m sure its something ridiculous.. Boras seriously needs to get real..
I cannot agree more with Blake’s position about Holliday. He can be had, it appears, at or below market value. The Yankees have no minor league outfielders on the horizon, their are no good free agent outfielders next year except for Crawford, who may well not be available, and the Yankees need a left fielder.
If fthe Yankees truly don’t have the money to spend, so be it. If they do, but pass, I think it is a mistake. Can they win without Holliday? I certainly like to think so, but I think the chances go up quite a bit with him. Isn’t that the point?
stuckey, sign me up man. Just tell me where to board the plane…
S O S
This was an old Tony Dungy philosophy as well.
Could be right about the playoff pressure on top off the undefeated pressure, its happened before
Will Nady be ready for opening day then??
just get this left field thing settled one way or another. for what the yankees want to spend they might as well go with gardner…..i don’t think the yankees want to spend any more money this off season.
Its been said before but if we backloaded Hollidays contract would it make much of a difference? Say, the first 2 years at 10m then 3rd at 15, 4th at 20, 5th at 25? Add incentives and a 4th yr option, to test free agency. Crazy?
murphydog
December 28th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
“When he attends the Tony Pena Finishing And Charm School, he’s going to be something.”
GB7:
When I first read it I thought you had written Tony Pena’s “Fishing” and Charm School. I’m thinking to myself, “I didn’t know Pena liked to fish. You know what? He doesn’t look like a guy who likes to fish.” Then I re-read it and realized I wasn’t having a “senior” moment, I was just having a stupid moment. But now I just know I’m going to have that stupid tag in my brain everytime I see Pena and it’ll be “Pena” and “Fisherman” crawling across my frontal lobe together.
Man, the brain really starts to go soft after 50. Along with a few other things
————————————————————
Murph…I think that it’s best that I don’t comment on this one. After all, you are one of my own….old.
GB7,
Speaking of David Clyde, Wasn’t Billy Martin his manager in Texas
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/…..alero.html
The Yankees still appear serious about their payroll restrictions for a left fielder. GM Brian Cashman says Xavier Nady’s asking price “is above the Yankees’ current budget,” according to MLB.com’s Brian Hoch.
*********
I’m not for Nady because of the injuries, but this is a bit unbelievable. I just don’t get why the Yankees insist on holding absolutely firm at not going over $200 million – do they really care what other teams think? Based on Cash’s “you can call us champions” statement, no, but you have to start wondering when even Nady is too expensive.
I want Matt Holliday just like the next person, since it is a good baseball move.
I also think there is at least a 50-50 chance of Carl Crawford resigning with the Rays, so to base 2010 moves on that is not exactly good strategy.
On the other hand, I think Cashman and Hal have decided to really stick to their guns this year, especially after the 2009 postseason when they committed over $400 million in payroll.
It will be interesting to see where this all ends up in the next 3-4 weeks.
call us champions” statement, no, but you have to start wondering when even Nady is too expensive.
=================================================
With Boras his agent he might be asking 10m.
Mick, I’m not saying he doesn’t want to play for the Yankees, just that I don’t believe he prefers it. I have been taken in too many times by the idea that a player wants to come to NY only to have it turn out that he signs elsewhere. For me, seeing is believing; I don’t believe any rumors about any player that indicate that he wants to come to NY (it’s not a Holliday thing).
On the other hand, I think Cashman and Hal have decided to really stick to their guns this year, especially after the 2009 postseason when they committed over $400 million in payroll.
=========================================
400 million?
Bronx Born
December 28th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
GB, I have a question for you. What’s your take regarding how baseball players get raked over the coals for taking PED’s and football seems to get a free pass. Really curious to your viewpoint, and other posters as well of course.
————————————————————
Bronx, to be honest, I’ve never really thought about it. With few exceptions, I’m not so sure that it really helps baseball players all that much. Maybe by 10% tops, but, 5% is more likely. I’d think that speed did as much back from the 40s through the early 90s helped players more.
Mick
$483 million over the next eight years to CC, AJ, and Tex, to be exact.
betsy
the yanks might be willing to match the cardinals offer and if they did why wouldn’t Matt come here? just thinking out loud, which is common here
“I’m not for Nady because of the injuries, but this is a bit unbelievable. I just don’t get why the Yankees insist on holding absolutely firm at not going over $200 million – do they really care what other teams think?”
Given how Cashman has worked in the past, this just strikes me as one of his leaks that is meant to give a message to an agent/player combination to be more reasonable in current negotiations. The question, of course, is who the message is meant for.
I meant $423 million..what’s another $60 million to the Yankees (ha,ha)?
Bx Born
In football, it seems to go with the territory.
Baseball, being a numbers game, the records are sacred.
Football, the players are faceless compared to those of baseball.
I sound like George Carlin.
reasonable in current negotiations. The question, of course, is who the message is meant for.
=======================================
Boras, of cour-as.
“the yanks might be willing to match the cardinals offer and if they did why wouldn’t Matt come here? just thinking out loud, which is common here”
Mick,
Maybe Boras is applying progressive tax rates to the Yankees.
The Cards, in his estimation maybe, can pay 85-100M for his client, so that would be acceptable for them. The Yankees, on the other hand, can afford a Tex contract, so that is their threshold to sign his client.
If his client asserted himself, however, he would take the Yankees at even money. Which is why I agree with Betsy that he doesn’t have a real preference for NY unless they offer the most $$.
Hal has said he will go over budget for the right player. Nady is not the right player. Nor is Dye.
Possibly Damon could be (at a lower price than he’s been asking).
Holliday could be a player they’d go off budget for. But they’ve got no reason to hurry, do they? It looks like Holliday isn’t going anywhere fast.
Mick, I think he would come here – I just don’t think he cares if he comes here, stays in St.Louis or plays for the Martian National team.
Crawford is not a better fit for the Yanks than Holliday is. The Yanks value OBP above all on O.
Also, the Yanks are flush. They took in over 100M more than their most optimistic projections called for.
“Boras, of cour-as.”
That would be my pick for the agent – but it leaves the player in doubt.
My guess would be Damon.
“Hal just wants to put the money in his pocket prior to a future sale”
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this is funny.
the apollo has try outs. Tuesdays, 1-4pm
tom tresh 15
December 28th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
GB7,
Speaking of David Clyde, Wasn’t Billy Martin his manager in Texas
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Martin was there late in the year, but, Whitey Herzog was managing when Clyde was signed. as I remember it, that was one of the reasons Herzog left. He thought that it would stunt Clyde’s talents, and he was right. It ruined him. The owner, Bob Short wanted Clyde to be the drawing card. 18 year old high schooler from the area.
Betsy, Do they have a team on Mars, did not know that!
Just noticed that Rick Ankiel’s OPS was better his rookie year (as a pitcher) than 2009′s .672.
When did he stop doing steroids? He was great in 2007 and April-July 2008. He stunk as of August 2008 — just fell off a cliff.
I thought he could be a high upside option but I wonder if the cliff was sans-roids.
David Clyde went to my high school(unfortuntaley a few years later). It was amazing how the Rangers ruined the best pitcher they ever drafted. They did it for a few sellouts.
CC can opt out after his 3rd year here. Give Matt a deal like that, so he can challenge free agency like Burnett did.
If it’s about the money then I’m sure we can accomodate Matt.
Maybe we don’t want him more than he doesn’t want us. In any case it seems mutual, unless they are just fooling with us.
everybody talks about Crawford next year. I hope the Yankees are looking at Jayson Werth and Brad Hawpe as well. They seem like good options to me…
CB:
“I think the yankees should make the investment.
I’d say the same for the Sox. I think you guys are making a mistake here not signing Holliday. I know the team wants to stay under the tax threshold but I think they are letting an opportunity pass here.”
If the bargain is there, you HAVE to take it. A quality player with great character. If MH signs for 5/85 anywhere, that is a steal for whichever team. Personally I think he’ll get more than that at this point..
Crawford:
From what I hear, don’t think it’s certain that the rays are going to let him go.. so for a moment, take crawford out of the loop, than what do you have for the next few years as options? Who are you going to get that can take the place of Posada if he goes down with an injury.. or even worse, Posada and NJ go down?
What I clearly see is a big risk, for the most lucrative team in baseball to stick to a so-called perceived “budget”.
Boras’s asking price is not 5/85. If it was, the Yankees would have an offer for that. He is looking for 8/150.. and that is not happening by way of Cashman.. or any team for that matter.
So the question becomes, “how low will his asking price get?” and if it is truly low enough to not refuse, what is Cash’s number.. because trust me when I tell you, he has a number for MH that he wouldn’t pass up.
GreenBeret7
December 28th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
tom tresh 15
December 28th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
GB7,
Speaking of David Clyde, Wasn’t Billy Martin his manager in Texas
————————————————————
Martin was there late in the year, but, Whitey Herzog was managing when Clyde was signed. as I remember it, that was one of the reasons Herzog left. He thought that it would stunt Clyde’s talents, and he was right. It ruined him. The owner, Bob Short wanted Clyde to be the drawing card. 18 year old high schooler from the area.
————————————————————
Thanks GB, I remembered there was controversy over bringing Clyde up and I knew Martin was there at some point. To be honest, As much as Billy was a winning manager, He did seem to have issues with handling pitchers. Al Leiter being one
Wow, Holliday has received MVP votes 4 years in a row. How many guys can say that?
It’s interesting that some feel that next year we can go after Cliff Lee, Brandon Webb, Josh Beckett because they will be FA’s next offseason, but Crawford won’t because he’ll sign an extension.
So, he won’t exercise his 1st opportunity to test Free Agency? What a guy!
“I don’t know what Nady wants but he’s a boras client so I’m sure its something ridiculous.. Boras seriously needs to get real..”
Here’s the Yankees issue. They could use a LF but three of the choices – choices that span the spectrum of options – Holliday (top shelf), Damon (mid rung) and Nady (high risk) are all Boras guys.
It’s going to be difficult for them to negotiate with either Damon or Nady right now with Holliday still on the board.
They have a team on Saturn, too – it runs rings around the Martian team. I tell a variation of that joke at my office periodically, lol.
Phil, no question that the Yanks are flush…..so, then the question is why is this budget so important to them? Holliday really does fit the team like a glove…….
Yankees are built to win the WS in 2010, and my guess is that they’re even money or better to do so without spending another penny.
The questions occur for after the 2010 season, as I think Cashman and Hal are thinking dynasty.
(1) Will Joba and/or Phil achieve their projections? Less need for starters and/or relievers if they dominate, but they will need to be paid arb salaries.
(2) How much will Cliff Lee settle for?
(3) Will Pettitte retire once and for all?
(4) How much will Jeter and Mo ask for?
(5) Will Carl Crawford or another LF be available?
I think Cash et al want as much payroll flexibility as possible, especially with the Sox set to shed about $50-60 million next year and gunning for bear after the Yankees beat them down again this season…
Hi Betsy,
The $200M budget is either a negotiating ploy (can anyone say Boras), or a real attempt by management to be smarter with its spending. I hope it’s a bit of both.
Too expensive is definitely a relative thing. Cashman is saying publicly that we can’t afford to add a big contract like Holliday. We all know he would be expensive.
Someone like Nady is definitely cheaper, but he made $6.55M last year. A $4M contract would be a bargain, but he is coming off his 2nd TJ, so his health is a question. If the Yankees are serious about spending wisely, then Nady is too expensive for the possible upgrade (if healthy and hitting like he did in his 1st month with the Yankees) over what we currently have.
Unfortunately for all the Damon fans, it’s the same reason why he is too expensive for us. Too old, too many nagging injuries last year, and his defense has fallen too far to make him affordable at almost any price to bring back.
I’m all for an upgrade in LF, but considering what’s available, it would either be Holliday or nothing.
Someone mentioned a few days ago that the Yankees might be saving LF for Jeter in a few years. Interesting thought, but too far in the future for someone like me to ponder.
I doubt that CC opts out. Seriously, as far as money’s concerned, who’s going to give him close to what the Yankees offered?
The Yankees could probably go $250M, but this budget talk’s just an excuse to not sign marginal players for more than they need to.
Look for the trend to continue. The Yankee ATM is out of order!
tom tresh 15
December 28th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
GreenBeret7
December 28th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
tom tresh 15
December 28th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
GB7,
Speaking of David Clyde, Wasn’t Billy Martin his manager in Texas
————————————————————
Martin was there late in the year, but, Whitey Herzog was managing when Clyde was signed. as I remember it, that was one of the reasons Herzog left. He thought that it would stunt Clyde’s talents, and he was right. It ruined him. The owner, Bob Short wanted Clyde to be the drawing card. 18 year old high schooler from the area.
————————————————————
Thanks GB, I remembered there was controversy over bringing Clyde up and I knew Martin was there at some point. To be honest, As much as Billy was a winning manager, He did seem to have issues with handling pitchers. Al Leiter being one
————————————————————
No problem, Tommy T. Martin’s biggest problem was insisting on having Art Fowler as his pitching coach. Fowler was the only coach that he could find that could drink as much as did he.
Ooh. I don’t get a sense the team is better right now. I mean the rotation is for sure.
But Damon and Matsui’s (not to mention melky
) offense will sting a bit.
And we have to shore up the bullpen a bit.
I still like the team and think (as always) that we’re the team to beat.
Pitchers and catchers report for physicals on Feb. 17th and have their 1st workout the next day.
Position players do the same 5 days later.
I’d like to see all Boras clients unsigned at that time and have him squirm.
If that’s what Boras is asking, then Holliday is going to have a long wait. He’s not getting 8 years from anyone…..never mind 8/150.
I don’t see the difficulty with a LF. Cash has Gaudin/Mitre as trade material in his back pocket either now or mid season as Nova and McAllister mature in AAA. Mitre with a year later, post surgery could be very good. Gaudin averaged almost a SO an inning and is only 27. If he’s managed to upgrade his stuff to LH hitters he becomes very valuable. Why would the Yankees sign some borderline vet that is of no value. Then there is the Jeter question. As in, how long can he continue as SS? Signing Holliday to a long term contract would leave Jeter relegated to DH. The Yankees have a PR nightmare coming with Rivera and Jeter wanting to continue indefinitely.
austinmac
December 28th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
David Clyde went to my high school(unfortuntaley a few years later). It was amazing how the Rangers ruined the best pitcher they ever drafted. They did it for a few sellouts.
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What a waste of a great talent. big curve and a bigger fastball. It’s impossible to know what he might have been.
-PeteAbe did a Q&A thread.
Sawx seemed concerned Cashman has been too quiet, and wonder if he’s planning a big move.
Pete tells them you can rarely trust what they say in public,as is true for any team. He says that winning the WS gave the Yankees leeway not to spend wildly this winter. He doesn’t see Bay or Holliday coming to the Yankees.
SI_JonHeyman,twitter has picked up on the Yankees interest in Jermaine Dye meme.
Hitting hasn’t been the problem the past years, it was the pitching, as you know. If we are only a LF away, many teams would love to be in our position esp with the July trade deadline around the bend.
If CC opts out, it is because he thinks he can get an extension from the Yankees and his agent advises him to do so.
All depends what the economic climate looks like heading into 2012. If he thinks he can squeeze some more cash out of the Yankees, he would be wise to do so. Cashman isin’t going to let him walk if he continues to pitch like he did this year. So why wouldn’t his agent try and get him some extra years if the economy improves?
If we can get Dye at our price, which will be low and shows he is smart enough to come here to win, would he platoon in LF with Gardner? Might not be a bad idea.
NYY’s aren’t likely to get into a bidding war for a second rate player like Dye. He’s not the Jermaine dye of 3-4 years ago.
Mike
Wouldn’t there have to be another suitor for CC at his current #s? Otherwise why would we grant an extension?
“Pete tells them you can rarely trust what they say in public,as is true for any team. He says that winning the WS gave the Yankees leeway not to spend wildly this winter.”
Well, it makes sense. We just won a WS, why do we need to break the bank? I don’t think Cashman likes spending wildly, especially when there is no need to.
Dye wouldnt have to be what he once was. He was still durable the last 2 years and he would probably platoon in LF.
“I’d like to see all Boras clients unsigned at that time and have him squirm.”
He didn’t look real “squirmy” with Manny being unsigned last year heading into ST.
CC’s agent probably has to “tamper” to find out CC’s market before electing to opt out.
It is not that uncommon to do so, but I find it hard to believe he will opt out if he doesn’t have a couple of suitors lined up.
mick,
And yet Alex got what he wanted when he opted out. Even though there was no other suitor. (Angels weren’t going to give him mad money)
It will be funny if we receive news soon that Reed Johnson is currently “out of our price range” as well.
SI_JonHeyman #yanks dont appear to be in on jermaine dye. #rangers, #cubs, #giants, #braves, #angels, etc. more likely.
about 1 hour ago from web
CB, so take Holliday off the board…problem solved, dynasty started
“NYY’s aren’t likely to get into a bidding war for a second rate player like Dye. He’s not the Jermaine dye of 3-4 years ago.”
From the looks of it, it doesn’t seem we’re going to get into a bidding war for anyone LOL!
Perhaps that’s why we are on a “budget” now, m?
Betsy,
First, the Yanks have never said what the budget was. Second, Hank has said they’d go over it for the right player. I think they made a bigger deal than usual about it this year because they had 3 of their own FA’s and they didn’t want to have protracted negotiations with any of them. Now everyone know that going forward, they will have a budget, unless you are special.
Sey
There won’t be a bidding war for anybody out there. Owners look like they are in collusin again, waiting out even the best like Holliday and Bay.
more likely for Jeter & Mo.
If CC opts out, Joba can always step into the role as ace. Right?
Hi Big Joe
I’m thrilled that the Yankees are being fiscally responsible in the sense that they know how to spend their $$$ and aren’t just throwing it at every available big name. I just don’t get why they have drawn a line here when Holliday fits a need. If they don’t sign him, they either go with a much, much, much weaker Gardner and possibly have to overpay at the deadline if he fails or they trade (which means they’d deplete the farm system even further) or they sign some stop-gap, only to have to go through this in another couple of years.
m…not the joba argument agin.
Reed Johnson’s 3-yr splits vs. lefties:
.329 BA (in 292 ABs)
.395 OBP
.878 OPS
plus, he’d be forced to shave that ridiculous goatee
platoon Gardner & Johnson until a better alternative presents itself via a mid-season trade
Why would CC even think about opting out? He’s got a ring could get 3 or more, is treated great by the Yankees and fan base. He’s etched into Yankees history with the other greats, and is on top of the world. What team has that to offer?
Phil, then can we assume they don’t think Holliday is special and they are willing to go in with a much weaker team with Brett in LF? They are leaving themselves open to having absolutely no depth in the OF. I know Cash said he’s going to rectify that – how? Dept takes more than just one player. If someone gets hurt, if our aging stars age….then they’re going to wish they had Holliday. I don’t suggest that they make moves just “in case” the worst happens, but he would help a lot. It’s not like we don’t need a LF and are just looking to make a big spash for no reason other than “hey, we’re the Yankees”.
I thought the opt out was for his family if they didn’t like NY.
Simple solution to the Yankees having to stay within the budget. Go public with it and ask for some bail out money. Use it to get Holliday. If Wells Fargo can get Wachovia with the money, why cant the Yankees spend it as they please. Promise Holliday a 100k message once he signs on the dotted line.
“I just don’t get why they have drawn a line here when Holliday fits a need.”
Because he doesn’t fill a “need” Betsy, he fills a desire.
The Yanks NEED someone to play good defense in left field and get on base roughly a 3rd of the time from the 9 hole.
“If they don’t sign him, they either go with a much, much, much weaker Gardner”
At a much, much, much lower price, to the tune of 1/30th of the cost, estimating conservatively.
And this is also assuming there are NO OTHER options between Brett Gardner and Matt Holiday, which I think is a symptom of an affliction somewhat exclusive to Yankee fans.
Just got off my last flight home. Who did the Yanks get for left field?
What? Nobody yet?
I wonder what they’re waiting for.
m,
I have to disagree with you. I think the team is better now.
Defensively, Granderson with Gardner/Hoffmann is much better than Damon and Melky. I know someone out there can come up with defensive metrics to prove this (I’ve seen them somewhere), but even without the statistical proof, all you have to do is watch them.
Offensively, I prefer to look at batting order placement rather than fielding position (forgive me all you proponents of WAR, etc.).
Johnson (OBP .426) will replace Damon (OBP .365) in the #2 spot. Damon had better power numbers last year, but also had a better park and supporting lineup to hit in. The job of a #2 hitter is to get on base, and Johnson does that extremely well.
Granderson (631 AB) replaces Matsui (456) in the #5 spot. If you give Matsui the same AB’s as Granderson, then his power production is way better, but the big question is how will his knees hold out this year. I love Matsui, but I think Granderson will be able to really take advantage of the short porch, and should easily be in the 30-40HR range, making him great protection for ARod.
Gardner/Hoffman (at this point) replace Melky in the #9 spot. Last year, Gardner (OBP .345) had more speed on the basepath, while Melky (OBP .336) had more power. Pretty much the same overall results over the same AB’s (Gardner more runs, Melky more RBI’s), so lets call this a tie.
The bullpen looks fine to me for now. Always the hardest part of the team to predict, but I like the arms they have lined up, and I like the fact that the young guys got some big league experience last year.
I know you see it differently…but I guess we can agree on the starting rotation!!!
“Why would CC even think about opting out?”
Because so long as he performs per his standard and doesn’t get a major injury, it’s a no-brainer, no-lose proposition.
Worst case scenario he signs with the Yankees for the identical terms of the remainder of this deal. Likely case he gets another year or two added on. Best case someone jumps in and tries to take him away from the Yanks.
Betsy,
I’m with you. I’d much rather see LF patrolled by Holliday than Gardner. I just wish I had an extra $100M in my back pocket to help Cashman make this happen. We’ll both have to keep our fingers crossed. If we do go into spring training with Gardner/Hoffmann, then it is what it is.
SI__JonHeyman’s twitter reads different than MLBTR, the wording says, “Yankees also don’t appear to be a PRIMARY suitor for Dye.” His twitter reads differently.
Ankiel, Holliday, Damon, Beltre = all Boras clients that Cashman seems to be side stepping….uhmmmm
If the Yankees pass on Holliday, Carl Crawford’s eye’s will light up brighter than his agent’s and he won’t be signing an extension with a team stuck in a division owned by the New York Yankees.
The team that potentially is a real loser with DeRosa signing is St. Louis.
DeRosa was St. Louis plan B option if they couldn’t sign Holliday. Not that option is gone.
This is a key negotiating strategy of Boras’s. By making a team wait to sign one of his guys he gets that team on the hook for that player. Boras implicitly increases the opportunity cost for that team to not sign that particular client because the team’s other options come off the board as he makes them wait.
That is why Cashman continues to allude to the attractive 2011 free agent class. It’ his secret code for hinting that big money is available now and later. He uses it as leverage in negotiations. In other words, if the price is wrong for Holliday, the Yankees will spend big dough in 2011.
Oh no, http://www.ajc.com (Atlanta-Journal constitution,) beat writer David O’Brien suggest Melky could be used as potential trade chip to the CUBS, if the Braves were to make him available.
“The team that potentially is a real loser with DeRosa signing is St. Louis.
DeRosa was St. Louis plan B option if they couldn’t sign Holliday. Not that option is gone”
——————————————–
CB: why not Damon as the fallback option? I don’t get the attraction with DeRosa other then roster flexibility and him being from the Tri-State
“why not Damon as the fallback option?”
vinny,
If you’re referring to the Cards I think NL teams are leery of Damon’s combined asking price and defense.
i’m sorry to disappoint all of u, but ur lf for next season will be mr. damon.