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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


The case against Holliday

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Dec 30, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Now that Jason Bay is off the market, Scott Boras is apparently going back to teams that have previously shown interest in Matt Holliday. St. Louis is one of those teams — the team that has seemed to be the favorite in this race — and Buster Olney writes that there is “increased optimism” within the Cardinals’ camp that Holliday will return to St. Louis.

Based the conversations I heard at my parents’ house during the Christmas weekend, this news must make most of Missouri very happy.

When it comes to the Yankees, though, there is a flip side to Holliday. While he is, without question, the top free agent on the market, there is a case being made that the Yankees not only don’t need him, they shouldn’t want him. If you haven’t already seen it, check out Dave Cameron’s story over at FanGraphs. He argues that there’s only so much better this Yankees team can become, and that adding Holliday doesn’t increase their playoff chances enough to justify the money. He writes that the Yankees are already capable of winning 100 games, which is plenty to make the playoffs. Why spend so much money to win more than that?

Because winning more than that means the team would be better, and being better matters a great deal in the playoffs.

Very true, and a fair point. Writing in response to the Cameron story, though, Rob Neyer adds another argument against the Yankees pursuit of Holliday.

“… the only way the Yankees can fall into a habit of losing, someday, is by stockpiling too many players in their 30s with big long-term contracts,” Neyer writes. “It’s incredibly difficult to place a value on flexibility, but that value is real and important and Brian Cashman’s awareness of that value is going to keep the Yankees on top for quite some time.”

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274 Responses to “The case against Holliday”

  1. Bret the Hitman December 30th, 2009 at 9:23 am

    Although Holliday may seem greedy, what do you call Teixeira, Sabathia and AJ Burnett? Charitable?

  2. vb03 December 30th, 2009 at 9:26 am

    But, but, I’m a spoiled Yankee fan and I want my $85M LF!!! Waaaaaaahhh!!!

  3. Bret the Hitman December 30th, 2009 at 9:26 am

    Also, the Yankees built in flexibility by nurturing the farm system. They have prospects to trade for cost-effective players like Swisher and Granderson.

  4. Mike Ri December 30th, 2009 at 9:26 am

    We don’t need Holliday. On paper we are a 95 win team easily ( barring injury ). Save the money for next years big pitching market.

  5. Will December 30th, 2009 at 9:28 am

    My previous attempt at posting appears not to have gone through. Please accept my apologies if this becomes a double post.

    Murphydog, as someone who usually enjoys all your interesting and often humorous posts, I have to say that I find your gratuitous comments directed at the “socialist” European system as completely unnecessary and certainly ill informed.

    As the European sales manager for a large American company, I’ve lived in Europe for the last 25 years and I have had the opportunity to see both the positive and negative sides of the European lifestyle versus that of America. Frankly, Americans should have some things so good as we have it here in the more advanced economies of Europe.

    Murphydog, someone as highly intelligent as you should know better than to make an assessment about a place without having lived there for any appreciable length of time.

    “Why isn’t that ok anymore? I say out with the proto-socialists in baseball. It’s the American Game, not the French or English or Italian game.”

    Oh, and by the way, there is currently NO salary cap on professional European soccer clubs at the moment, though it is being discussed in the same manner as some baseball owners are in America – please see following;

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html

  6. Carl December 30th, 2009 at 9:30 am

    Next years free agent class will be a looot better. We can pick up Joe Girardi…Derek Jeter…Mo! That would be greedy if we sign that trio.

  7. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 9:31 am

    Pat, Nady has had 2 TJ surgeries …..that’s ridiculously rare. It’s rare for non-pitcher to even need that, so that tells me he’s probably shot.

    I like Holliday and he fits like a glove…….but there are arguments to be made against signing him. First, I think it’s clear that the Yankees don’t LOVE him. At least, they value other things above what they value Holliday at. Secondly, that thing they value is flexibility and signing Holliday would preclude that as every position would be locked in and they wouldn’t be able to maneuver. There are only so many “open” positions on this team and I think Cash wants to take advantage where he can. The infield is set for years, so we have time to develop some kids there (they’d better start drafting promising SS though). Catching will belong to the kids after Jorge is gone, so that’s solid. I think all of the above explains why the Yankees are not hot for Holliday.

    I loved reading Neyer’s piece yesterday, especially the last line about the Yankees being on top for a long time, lol

  8. randyl. December 30th, 2009 at 9:31 am

    ” He writes that the Yankees are already capable of winning 100 games, which is plenty to make the playoffs. Why spend so much money to win more than that?”

    that’s what i’ve been saying for a month.

    i would rather the yankees not tie up the money and stay more flexible for future years.

  9. MTU December 30th, 2009 at 9:33 am

    A few points :

    We aren’t only interested in winning the pennant but the WS.

    MH fills a # of important needs:

    Solid # 5 hitter

    Depth in case of injury to Po, Johnson, or a-rod

    He fills a LF void for a # of years @ a bargain price

    Creates a Murderer’s row.

    Next year’s FA class is weak in LF other than CC.

    I rest my case.

  10. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 9:33 am

    Think about it – if we think we need Holliday, what does that say for every other team in baseball? They must need him even more…I’m sure the Yankees are aware that Holliday in the 5 hole would be a huge help if someone got hurt, but I’m also sure that they aren’t willing to sign him so he can be an insurance policy. I assume Cash and Hal have great faith in the team.

  11. Bret the Hitman December 30th, 2009 at 9:34 am

    MTU
    December 30th, 2009 at 9:33 am
    A few points :

    We aren’t only interested in winning the pennant but the WS.

    MH fills a # of important needs:

    Solid # 5 hitter

    Depth in case of injury to Po, Johnson, or a-rod

    He fills a LF void for a # of years @ a bargain price

    Creates a Murderer’s row.

    Next year’s FA class is weak in LF other than CC.

    I rest my case.

    :lol:

    Good morning MTU

  12. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 9:35 am

    Personally i was more concerned with depth than holliday. If we are going to go with gardner/granderson/swisher, that’s fine, but inevitably there will be an injury so we need a decent 4th/5th option for injury and when gardner reminds us why he lost his job to melky last year.

  13. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 9:35 am

    Cameron’s analysis fails to account for injuries, age-related declines (of which the Yankees are more than a little vulnerable), and season to season fluctuations in performance.

    The best argument against signing Holliday is to retain some measure of roster/payroll flexibility.

  14. MaineYankee December 30th, 2009 at 9:35 am

    randy

    Maybe you and Cashman agree. :lol:

  15. Rob NY December 30th, 2009 at 9:37 am

    Spoiled? Greedy? If the team can afford it they should pay for Matt Holliday. If they can’t, and think it would hurt the team and not make it better they shouldn’t. I don’t think the “perception” of other people plays into it at all. Greedy? If I won the Mega Millions I’d have two of the greatest houses in the world built for me. One in NY and one in the desert. Would that make me greedy for not living in a tenement? I don’t get all the self loathing yankee fans out there. Your team is extraordinarily rich, and there’s nothing wrong with that…

  16. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 9:37 am

    “Although Holliday may seem greedy, what do you call Teixeira, Sabathia and AJ Burnett? Charitable?”

    Two of the three (Teix, CC) were necessities, as Holliday would have been if they hadn’t signed Teix.

    But unlike this season, as Cash has said, they had a lot more money coming off the payroll last year.

  17. Bronx Jeers December 30th, 2009 at 9:38 am

    Sometimes having too much money can be construed as being at a disadvantage.

    Yanks probably have the money to make this signing but by doing so it could jeopardize their ability to sign a future free agent that may be of a greater help.

    It’s a problem not too many GM’s have to deal with and Cashman has certainly learned from prior mistakes.

    The problem in here is that many of us are “behind the learning curve” so to speak.

  18. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 9:38 am

    Betsy

    Some teams have more ready, or near ML ready, position players. That’s yet another reason why the Yankees need very productive mL system.

  19. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 9:39 am

    Randy, what would you do in LF? Are you willing to go through a LF merry-go-round for the forseeable future? Also, keep in mind that the Yankees may be targeting Crawford; I’m not a fan of giving him a big deal – are you?

  20. MTU December 30th, 2009 at 9:40 am

    Brett-

    And good morning to you too.

    It’s nice to have company here in the Asylum.

    One flew over the Cuckoo’s nest.

    that’s me.

    It’s Holliday or Bust for me.

    He’s come to the fork in the road. Time to take it.

  21. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 9:41 am

    Rich, I’m not as down on the farm system as you are. Most of those teams you refer to have been bad for a long time (or were bad, like the Rays). Rome wasn’t built in a day – the system has come a long way in just a few years. They first focused on drafting pitchers and catchers; last year the drafted Heathcott and I hope they continue drafting OF and INF. Their system is productive as it did help them get Vasquez and Granderson.

  22. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 9:41 am

    But unlike this season, as Cash has said, they had a lot more money coming off the payroll last year.

    ___

    truthfully they dont have THAT MUCH coming off payroll if you consider they willl resign Jeter and Rivera. All that comes off is Vazquez and Pettitte, maybe NJ.

    Did i miss anyone? That will be enough to sign Cliff Lee or another star pitcher, and maybe one good fielder.

  23. Bret the Hitman December 30th, 2009 at 9:42 am

    Also, the flexibility argument against Holliday assumes that he’ll not live up to his contract. As it stands, he’ll be a bargain in this market and even though he’s 30 now and would be 35 at the end of his next deal, you can’t assume he’d be costing the Yankees too much money given his production. He is likely to outproduce his contract figure given his previous production and his lower current market value.

    In short, his production at his cost will actually provide more flexibility because they Yankees won’t require as much production from other positions on the field, therefore will have to spend less money on the players surrounding Matt.

  24. MTU December 30th, 2009 at 9:44 am

    Oxymoron:

    Yankee Budget.

    They are a money machine.

    Get the Mercedes at 1/2 off.

  25. Bret the Hitman December 30th, 2009 at 9:44 am

    In short, his production at his cost will actually provide more flexibility because they Yankees won’t require as much production from other positions on the field, therefore will have to spend less money on the players surrounding Matt. So although there may be less money available because of his contract, there will be even less production required per dollar.

  26. randyl. December 30th, 2009 at 9:44 am

    there is a point when too many good players can make a team complacent because the team can win even when it’s not focused. the sense of urgency can be lost with a lot of bad habits developed over time that are hard to change in crunch time.

    i would prefer a team that has to fight a bit all year to keep the edge.

    adding holliday may not cause the yankees to win 110 games, but to get complacent , win 99 just by showing up,and have little edge going into the playoffs.

  27. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 9:45 am

    Heyman was apparently on WFAN this morning and said that the Yankees are not in on Holliday. They don’t look at it the way they did the Tex situation and there’s a better chance that they sign Nady than that they sign Holliday. I didn’t hear him myself, this was posted on another board. I did hear Heyman on Hot Stove yesterday, though, and he basically said the same thing.

  28. Bret the Hitman December 30th, 2009 at 9:45 am

    Or something like that.

  29. Bret the Hitman December 30th, 2009 at 9:47 am

    randyl.
    December 30th, 2009 at 9:44 am
    there is a point when too many good players can make a team complacent because the team can win even when it’s not focused. the sense of urgency can be lost with a lot of bad habits developed over time that are hard to change in crunch time.

    i would prefer a team that has to fight a bit all year to keep the edge.

    adding holliday may not cause the yankees to win 110 games, but to get complacent , win 99 just by showing up,and have little edge going into the playoffs.

    Winning is addictive. If the Yankees view Matt as a winner, he’ll fit right in.

  30. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 9:48 am

    All that said, I don’t buy the argument that a team can have too many wins or is greedy for wanting to fix holes that need fixing. The Yankees have basically made their choice to look elsewhere, but it’s not because they are afraid of being too good.

  31. Bronx Jeers December 30th, 2009 at 9:48 am

    Holliday’s more of a Beamer.

  32. Stan December 30th, 2009 at 9:48 am

    There’s no evidence that shows the Cardinals cannot afford both Holliday and Pujols.
    By the time Pujols is a free agent, one year of Holliday’s contract will be off the books.
    There’s no other players they have with a top free agent contract. The Cardinals are generally bargain hunters.

    http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.c.....p?c_id=stl

  33. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 9:49 am

    Betsy

    It’s not that I’m down on it per se. My point is that there is a greater urgency to build it up and utilize than some (not necessarily you) believe.

    They can compensate for their draft position with their ability to pay overslot, to pay big bonuses to IFA, and to grab guys like Chapman (assuming they like him) when they become available.

    But they also need more big hits with position player after the first round.

    And as I said, the failure to sign Cole was a very big blow.

    So while it is definitely improved since Cash took over, their drafting needs to be even better.

  34. ditmars1929 December 30th, 2009 at 9:50 am

    This team, as is, will win. The Yankees don’t need Holliday. Heck, they could stick me out in left field and their win total wouldn’t change at all.

  35. MTU December 30th, 2009 at 9:50 am

    Bronx-

    OK. beamer. I stand corrected.

  36. YankeeRay December 30th, 2009 at 9:51 am

    Bret the Hitman
    December 30th, 2009 at 9:34 am
    MTU
    December 30th, 2009 at 9:33 am
    A few points :

    We aren’t only interested in winning the pennant but the WS.

    MH fills a # of important needs:

    Solid # 5 hitter

    Depth in case of injury to Po, Johnson, or a-rod

    He fills a LF void for a # of years @ a bargain price

    Creates a Murderer’s row.

    Next year’s FA class is weak in LF other than CC.

    I rest my case.

    Good morning MTU
    ——–
    Not to mention that Holliday is better than Crawford at what will be similar numbers. Why go through this LF search again next year when we will be focused on Lee and replacing Pettitte and JV’s spots. Swishers contract escalates next year and that is when you move him and go cheap in RF. Backload Holliday for a year and make it work.
    Flexibility comes via the lineup not financially in this case with Crawford pending.
    Jeter 12 HR’s
    Johnson 19 HR’s
    Arod 43 HR’s
    Tex 38 HR’s
    Holliday 33 HR’s
    Posada 19 HR’s
    Cano 22 HR’s
    Swisher 21 HR’s
    Granderson 27 HR’s

  37. MTU December 30th, 2009 at 9:52 am

    Dit-

    Are you available ?

    What’s your asking price ?

  38. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 30th, 2009 at 9:52 am

    Granderson has, what 3 years on his contract?

    Swisher, 2 or 3?

    They “could” get Holliday without totally destroying their flexibility. But I’d rather they give Johnny Damon a slightly inflated one-year contract at this point.

    I know and understand all the arguments about age-related declines and injury, but every team has those.

    And I think Jorge is being short-changed as a possibility for the 5-slot, and don’t forget that Granderson might slide in there or even, maybe maybe maybe, Robbi Cano. I loved Matsui, but he had his slumps, don’t forget, like every other player – and his slumps were ugly (though his non-slumps were a thing of beauty!).

  39. ditmars1929 December 30th, 2009 at 9:54 am

    Yes, MTU, I am available to play left field for the Yankees. My asking price is enough to retire comfortably, put my son through college, and spoil my wife rotten. I’ll even leave it up to Cashman to figure out how much that’ll cost, such is my modesty.

  40. MTU December 30th, 2009 at 9:55 am

    Holliday Kool-Aid drinkers sign below:

    MTU

    ?

  41. Bret the Hitman December 30th, 2009 at 9:55 am

    YankeeRay,

    Good point.

    If signing Holliday means moving Swisher, it can be done. They can go cheap in RF instead of LF (which is much more difficult to play in YS therefore tougher to fill).

  42. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 9:56 am

    “Also, the flexibility argument against Holliday assumes that he’ll not live up to his contract”

    Not entirely. There is also a cumulative effect as a result of their pre-existing commitments to Alex, Teix, CC, AJ, Cano, etc.

    So if unforeseen consequences occur, like injuries or declines, they have nothing to trade except mL assets. Ideally, that is what they should be using as reinforcements.

    But if too many bad things happen, you can get into a vicious cycle where you trade young players for temporary help, but you could need them in a year or so to replace aging players.

  43. CB December 30th, 2009 at 9:57 am

    The primary reason to sign Holliday with respect to 2010 is not to gain additional marginal wins.

    The main reason to sign him is mitigation of risk.

    3 of the yankees top 4 offensive players are 34 and older. All of them have had moderate to severe injuries over the past two seasons.

    That’s the reason to sign Holliday with respect to the 2010 season.

    If Derek Jeter or Posada get hurt the yankees advantage over the Red Sox becomes small. Now you can say that about any player e.g. Youkilis as well. But the fact remains, older players are more likely to get hurt. I’d also guess up the middle plaers are more likley to get hurt (especially at catcher).

    Risk mitigation for a team with a comparatively old core of offensive players is not a trivial issue. This was actually one of the primary reasons the yanks should have signed Tex last year as well (though the need to mitigate risk was far higher last year).

    Also, the impact that Holliday might have on the yankees probability of winning in the playoffs would not be trivial. If he could increase their chance of winning each round of the playoffs by 2% I’d guess he would be worth well over whatever his salary is.

    Not the negative side of lost payroll flexibility is a significant negative and may very well be greater than the positives.

    But signing Holliday is not an issue of wanting to win 102 games vs. 100.

    It’s managing risk on a team where many of the central players are older and have been injured recently in the most competitive division in baseball.

    The linked article does not take that issue into consideration.

  44. MTU December 30th, 2009 at 9:57 am

    Dit-

    What an oversight on Cash’s part.

    Almost unforgiveable.

    A player of your stature, and bargain priced.

    Forget MH sign Ditmar.

  45. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 9:57 am

    “Holliday’s more of a Beamer.”

    I like them more anyway.

  46. Glenner December 30th, 2009 at 9:58 am

    Why is there any remaining talk aboiut Halliday? The Yankees said that they won’t spend the money. His numbers are Colorado inflated. The Yankees are more concerned about signing Jeter and Mo next year and seem to have one eye on Carl Crawford also. Reed Johnson’s splits against lefties are BETTER than Halliday’s. Hoffman will likely prove better than most her believe. Move on.

  47. MTU December 30th, 2009 at 9:59 am

    CB-

    Thank you.

    Eloquent as usual.

    D’Accord.

  48. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 30th, 2009 at 9:59 am

    And I’ll reiterate the question I brought up yesterday (and Betsy, thanks for your response) – what has changed about Matt Holliday that turned him into a “must-have” player when for all of last season, most everyone said he should be avoided because he was a product of Coors Field, and on top of that, his performance with Oakland wasn’t “all that.” And even with that (Oakland performance), all of a sudden we’re hearing that, well, he was starting to turn it around with Oakland when the trade to St. Lo came through, and Oakland was a SSS, etc. It sounds like a “sell job” to me.

  49. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 9:59 am

    “His numbers are Colorado inflated. ”

    Park adjusted stats demonstrate otherwise.

  50. MTU December 30th, 2009 at 10:01 am

    The Yankees will be great w/o MH greater w him.

    Let’s take the sum of the parts to a higher plane.

  51. PittsburghYankeeFan December 30th, 2009 at 10:03 am

    As much as I am lukewarm about Neyer, he has a point. The marginal utility of Holliday to the Yankees is not as great as the marginal utility to the Cardinals at this time.

    Like it or not, the Yankees are going to be saddled with ARod and Jeter’s contracts for the next 6-8 years. Also, they have Tex for 7. That’s three position players at about $60-70 million AAV until 2017. Add in Cano at $8-10 million x 4-5 on his next contract (which you do), and you’re now at $70-80 million.

    They are always going to want pitching. CC and AJ are $40 million for the next 4 years. So now you’re up to $120 million. Best case scenario is that they sign Cliff Lee at somewhere like $18-20 x 4. So now you’re committed to $140 million until 2015.

    You still need 2 more starters, a catcher after 2011, a closer, and what about the outfield, where you have no real guys in the minors ready until maybe 2012-2013, if by then?

    Best case scenario is that Hughes comes through as the #3-4, and you’re paying his arb at $5-8 million x 2 years, then real money after 2012. Same thing with Joba in a best case world. So add $10-15 million. Your commitment is now $150 million. The reality is somewhere in between, so you have to get a $10 million #4 or 5. Add $5 million or so (since you give up one of Joba or Hughes in trade, and lose their $5 million). You’re now at $155 million.

    Closer? Mo gets $15 million, and his replacement get $12 million, unless it’s Joba at $5 million in arb. Plan on at least $10 million committment. So now you’re at $165 million until at least 2014.

    You have no outfield and no bench. The lux tax in the new CBA after 2012 is $180-190 million, and it is very abusive. You have about $25 million left before you hit it, and you need all of the above

    That is the best case scenario IMO. That is why they are not signing any outfielder to a 5 year, $18 million plus contract, as much as they like him.

  52. PittsburghYankeeFan December 30th, 2009 at 10:05 am

    PS–I forgot catcher. They’re not signing Mauer under this scenario. It’s Romine or Montero.

  53. CB December 30th, 2009 at 10:06 am

    “Park adjusted stats demonstrate otherwise.”

    You really can’t fully adjust for Coors field, particularly because “adjustment” in the context of the stats used for this (OPS+, wRC+) are simply normalized rather than adjusted in the model.

  54. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 10:07 am

    If someone Mauer became free, he is he kind of all-world talent that you sign, assuming the medicals on his back checked out. At the very least, you force the RS to pay him > $30m a year for a long time.

  55. Don't Need a Star at Every Position! December 30th, 2009 at 10:07 am

    People! We don’t need Matt Holliday! We could survive with an average LF, we did last year when we survived with a CF platoon of Melky & Gardner. I like the idea of having average, gritty players that try real hard (Gardner, Hairston, etc.), playing along our stars of Jeter, A-Rod, Tex, etc. Why are you trying to make the Yankees buy every top player on the market? relax!

  56. Nud December 30th, 2009 at 10:09 am

    Holliday makes ZERO sense. Yankees DO NOT need another 18-20 mil a yr player. There is no chance he signs with the Yankees. Move on. Yanks are champs and they have hopefully improved themselves this offseason. Enjoy….

  57. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 10:11 am

    “You really can’t fully adjust for Coors field, particularly because “adjustment” in the context of the stats used for this (OPS+, wRC+) are simply normalized rather than adjusted in the model.”

    Even accepting your point arguendo, if you regress his Coors stats to the mean somewhat, they are still very impressive.

  58. Paul December 30th, 2009 at 10:14 am

    I’d feel a lot better about Gardner playing every day if he could hit. He can’t hit. He’s a major project for K Long & hopefully K Long can help him get on base more, and use that speed.

  59. blake December 30th, 2009 at 10:18 am

    Signing a one year player for LF would only make sense if there was an outfielder that was close to the but leagues with an ETA of 2011. As it stands though unless Cashman has a Matt Kemp trade up his sleeve then Holliday is then Holliday could be the best outfielder that will be availabl for quite awhile. If theu are planning on going with Gardner longterm then fine but saving payroll this year to turn around and spend it on a lesser player next year in Crawford makes no sense. I’d rather have Holliday this year than Crawford next year with a year older core..

    It find it odd that the Yankees would trade their best left fielder and them claim they have no interest in any left fielders unless they were doing so to keep prices down..

  60. John in Ohio December 30th, 2009 at 10:22 am

    I vote “no” on Holliday.

    Do you think Cashman is tallying up our votes?

  61. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 10:22 am

    Gardner just needs to work on slapping the ball through, and bunting. He didnt bunt nearly enough when he was playing. His speed is his ONLY asset so if he wants to have even a little success, he better start working with the tools he has.

  62. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 10:26 am

    Rich in NJ
    December 30th, 2009 at 9:49 am
    Betsy

    It’s not that I’m down on it per se. My point is that there is a greater urgency to build it up and utilize than some (not necessarily you) believe.

    They can compensate for their draft position with their ability to pay overslot, to pay big bonuses to IFA, and to grab guys like Chapman (assuming they like him) when they become available.

    But they also need more big hits with position player after the first round.

    And as I said, the failure to sign Cole was a very big blow.

    So while it is definitely improved since Cash took over, their drafting needs to be even better.

    ————————————————————

    Perhaps the reason being that even though the NYYs pay overslot has little to do with it. The just started drafting sensibly less than 3 years ago and those signings are on the virge of paying off. Perhaps if NYY had missed the playoffs 3-5 times in the last 10 years. NYY mostly has to take a lots of risks because most of the players have injury issues instead of the safe picks. The spend up to 18 months with surgery and rehab. They are almost ready to catch up on the farm. Look at these kids….go to minor league games and quit depending on what some clown writes. stop sucking the writings of someone that, chances are, hasn’t seen them, either.

    There is a lot of talent that’s no more than a year away.

  63. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 10:27 am

    Steve Goldman:

    A HAIRSTON NOTE

    Speaking of Gardner, I see via MLBTraderumors that Jerry Hairston, Jr. could be re-signed to play some left field. Hairston is versatile, which is a nice thing to have in a bench player, but: he’s a career .256/.331/.367 hitter against right-handers. You know who hits right-handers better than that? Everybody. He’s also a career .264/.323/.386 hitter against left-handers. You know who hits left-handers better than that? Everyone who is right-handed. There is no point. If you’re the Cincinnati Reds or the Houston Astros maybe you have to consider insane options like this. If you’re the Yankees, even if you’re operating on a (relatively speaking) tightened budget, you’re not obligated to do anything so dramatically self-defeating.

  64. randy l. December 30th, 2009 at 10:30 am

    “The primary reason to sign Holliday with respect to 2010 is not to gain additional marginal wins.

    The main reason to sign him is mitigation of risk.”

    CB-

    that makes sense, but this means he’d be more of an insurance policy if someone gets hurt.

    that means if no one gets hurt or falls off dramatically because of age then he’d be an unnecessary addition.

    the yankees could just keep the cash in reserve and have it if they need to add someone during the season if a specific need comes up . a free agent like holliday wouldn’t be available, but cash opens up a lot of trades at the trade deadline.

    i also still feel there is a downside to being too good with too many stars.i do feel that coasting and just showing up is an issue.

    not for someone like jeter, but there are other yankees that play to the level of what they have too.that’s fine , but it’s not always so easy to turn it on and turn it off.

    and don’t you all want to see cashman make some good moves that don’t involve money to get an advantage ?

    i mean he is smart enough to do that, right? :)

  65. blake December 30th, 2009 at 10:31 am

    I don’t know if the Yankees will sign Holliday or not. I think it makes all the sense in the world and think it would be a good investment in a position that is weak throughout their system. I do find it funny that so many people are 100% sure that the Yankees aren’t signing him. I guess the taste of crow wasn’t so bad last year for some people..I never talk in absolutes when discussing the Yankees because nobody really knows exactly what they are up to but them.

  66. MikeinBH December 30th, 2009 at 10:31 am

    What about trying to trade for Corey Hart of the Brewers. He can hit for power, steal some bases and absolutely kills left-handed pitching. He also has solid defense in RF moving Swish to left. The Brewers have mentioned trading him this offseason.

  67. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 10:33 am

    GB7

    “Perhaps the reason being that even though the NYYs pay overslot has little to do with it. The just started drafting sensibly less than 3 years ago and those signings are on the virge of paying off. Perhaps if NYY had missed the playoffs 3-5 times in the last 10 years. NYY mostly has to take a lots of risks because most of the players have injury issues instead of the safe picks. The spend up to 18 months with surgery and rehab. They are almost ready to catch up on the farm. Look at these kids….go to minor league games and quit depending on what some clown writes. stop sucking the writings of someone that, chances are, hasn’t seen them, either.

    There is a lot of talent that’s no more than a year away.”

    Paying overslot doesn’t at least somewhat compensate for their draft position? Explain.

    Of course it does, that’s how they got Melancon and Brackman (the injury/surgery risks you mentioned).

    Cash got more power at the end of 2005. There have been four drafts since then.

    Who are the players that were drafted the first two years that are going to be in AA or AAA this season that project to be top tier position players?

    There was one AJack.

    I have gone to games in Trenton. Meet me there and I’ll buy you a beer.

  68. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 10:35 am

    That first sentence made no sense.

    ***Perhaps the reason being that even though the NYYs pay overslot, is because they have no choice.*** They just started drafting sensibly less than 3 years ago and those signings are on the ***verge***

  69. Nud December 30th, 2009 at 10:35 am

    I like the Cory Hart idea but I doubt the Yanks want to trade anymore minor leaguers. Nice thought though….Before last yrs bad yr, a lot of people thought Hart could go 30/30—-he still prob will

  70. Boston Dave - XXVII December 30th, 2009 at 10:36 am

    CB,

    while true, and I know it’s been discussed, there is a limit to how much risk the Yankees can reduce.

    They reduced risk when they signed CC, Tex, and AJ.

    I know you’re not suggesting otherwise, but reducing risk via Holliday is a nice-to-have, not a necessity.

  71. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 10:38 am

    GB7

    I think paying overslot is a good thing.

  72. murphydog December 30th, 2009 at 10:38 am

    I posted this last night at 10:51pm. I agree 100% with Cameron at FanGraphs

    “If the Yankees go to Tampa with only Gardner and Hoffmann and Colin Curtis (and even Reed Johnson) then they’re essentially handing Gardner the job and he has done absolutely zero to earn that kind of status.”

    I hear you but I’d draw a different conclusion. If Gardner beats out Hoffman, Colin Curtis and maybe Johnson, then it says that the Yankees are willing to allocate only so much money to man LF and put somebody in the 9 hole in the lineup for 2010.

    The goal is to win enough games to get to the post season and then to have the pitching and defense and timely hitting to win a short series and two long series against very competitive teams. The Yankees seem to be drawing a line on spending to achieve that last incremental upgrade on offense over where they are now. They seem to be relying instead on run prevention to replace Matsui’s and Damon’s incremental (and purely offensive) contributions to games won. Cash thinks he has re-balanced the equation perfectly if not improved the team.

    If the Yankee offensive graph remains roughly flat in relation to last year, but the rotation and defense are arguably upgraded, I just don’t feel panicked about where Halladay, Holliday or any other Day(-mon) winds up.

  73. disco stu December 30th, 2009 at 10:39 am

    Another reason why Holliday will never wear pinstripes is because Boras is his agent and it appears right now that there is some sort of rift between him and Cashman. Between the debacle of the A-Rod opt out back in 2007 and with Boras going ridiculously overboard with pumping up Johnny Damon by comparing him to Derek Jeter, I think the Yankees have had their fill of Boras for the time being.

    Which is why the only way Damon ever comes back to the Yankees is if he fires Boras as his agent and has someone else negotiate a deal with the Yankees … other than that, the Yankees have decided to draw a line in the sand.

  74. burr December 30th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    excelent point in the blog about not having too many players locked up long term. if things fall apart 2 or 3 years from now and we still have a bunch of large, unloadable contracts, were in a tough spot. id rather save the large contract that we would give holliday and bring in Cliff Lee or Brandon Webb next season. pitching wins championchips.

  75. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 10:42 am

    Are you forgetting about Chamberlain, Robertson, Kennedy? They’ve signed IFAs that are making a difference. IFAs are the things other organizations dreams are made of. Not every player will make a mark, but, guess what? They all don’t work out for other organizations, either. Boston has missed on HOFers like Hanson and so far, Anderson isn’t so hot, either.

  76. Boston Dave - XXVII December 30th, 2009 at 10:43 am

    Why not Marlon Byrd in LF?

    He’s a steady .280 15-20HR, could still allow Gardy to get some platoon AB’s against righthanders, and would be a budget signing (to a degree).

    I’d still prefer Damon assuming he’d come at a significant discount but Byrd is more than sufficient.

  77. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 30th, 2009 at 10:43 am

    Tex was a Boras client. I don’t think there’s a “rift” between Cashman and Boras. I think the Yankees are just striking a harder line these days.

  78. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 10:44 am

    CB, I assume the Yankees thought long and hard about that before they decided that Holliday was not worth pursuing. They’re looking beyond 2010 anyway and since they think they are good enough as is, I can understand their thinking.

  79. crawdaddy December 30th, 2009 at 10:44 am

    “Who are the players that were drafted the first two years that are going to be in AA or AAA this season that project to be top tier position players?

    There was one AJack.”

    Don’t forget Romine. The injury to Suttles has hurt along with Angelini’s failures to translate to professional ball.

  80. burr December 30th, 2009 at 10:44 am

    also whats with the gardner hate. give the kid a chance. he had some slumps last season, but all he needs to do is bat like 270 and get on base a little more and he will be a sure asset. his speed is game changing and i witnessed it last year when he hit the inside the park homerun. give him a shot to learn and improve.

  81. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 10:45 am

    Kim Jones is on WFAN with Ed Coleman; I’m thinking of calling in……

  82. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 10:45 am

    “If the Yankee offensive graph remains roughly flat in relation to last year…”

    That’s probably unlikely. Jeter and Posada are candidates to experience age-related declines, and Granderson/Johnson will probably produce less offensively than Damon/Matsui. OTOH, Alex is the only player that is likely to have a better offensive season in 2010, although maybe Cano will as well.

    It’s still possible (if not likely), however, that the pitching and defense can compensate for any offensive shortfall.

  83. Matt December 30th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    Regardless of how much talent the team has, there is always good sense in allowing for the unforseen such as injuries or a player not living up to expectations.
    This is where the 7/31 trading deadline comes into play and the Yankees have always found a necessity to get a helpful player for the August – September stretch.
    Whoever the 25 players are that leave spring training will not be the same 25 players to open the postseason.

  84. Nud December 30th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    The reasonable and logical fix is to sign Johnny Damon back. I mean it is a perfect fix. It should happen!

  85. blake December 30th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    What other position players besides Arod and tex are on longterm deals? Jeter and Posada are at the end of theirs. I think that argument is overstated, especially with the revenue streams that the Yankees have.

  86. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 10:48 am

    Phil will definitely be in the rotation by 2011 and very likely Joba (unless he’s awful this year). They will either re-sign JV or sign Lee (but I really don’t want them to. There’s no way I’m giving him 5/6 years at over $20 million per). If Joba is bad this year and is moved to the pen, maybe Andy comes back.

  87. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 10:48 am

    GB7

    “Are you forgetting about Chamberlain, Robertson, Kennedy? They’ve signed IFAs that are making a difference. IFAs are the things other organizations dreams are made of. Not every player will make a mark, but, guess what? They all don’t work out for other organizations, either. Boston has missed on HOFers like Hanson and so far, Anderson isn’t so hot, either.”

    My focus has been on position players.

    IFA offers a great opportunity, but most players are very young when they sign, so their path to the MLs can take a while (Montero being the exception).

    So I would like to see them draft more position players with a high ceiling. I think they did that in 2009.

  88. crawdaddy December 30th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    “That’s probably unlikely. Jeter and Posada are candidates to experience age-related declines, and Granderson/Johnson will probably produce less offensively than Damon/Matsui. OTOH, Alex is the only player that is likely to have a better offensive season in 2010, although maybe Cano will as well.”

    Thank God, they play the games to actually find out if the above becomes true or not.

  89. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    Yes, our stars don’t try hard….

  90. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    Johnny’s price continues to drop. He may turn out to be like Pettitte, where the yankees manage to get him at 1/5.5 with playing incentives like johnson.

  91. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    murphydog
    December 30th, 2009 at 10:38 am
    I posted this last night at 10:51pm. I agree 100% with Cameron at FanGraphs

    “If the Yankees go to Tampa with only Gardner and Hoffmann and Colin Curtis (and even Reed Johnson) then they’re essentially handing Gardner the job and he has done absolutely zero to earn that kind of status.”

    I hear you but I’d draw a different conclusion. If Gardner beats out Hoffman, Colin Curtis and maybe Johnson, then it says that the Yankees are willing to allocate only so much money to man LF and put somebody in the 9 hole in the lineup for 2010.

    ————————————————————

    I’m not all that sure of Colin Curtis. If he becomes much of anything, it will be a pleasant surprise. I’m hoping it works out because NYY needs a better option than Gardner. NYY hasn’t really grown their own corner outfielders since White and Murcer (although they started out as middle infielders). Seems like NYY has better chances of growing infielders and moving them to the outfield.

  92. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 10:52 am

    “What other position players besides Arod and tex are on longterm deals? ”

    In essence, Cano:

    11:$10M, 12:$14M club option ($2M buyout), 13:$15M club option ($2M buyout)

    and Granderson:

    10:$5.5M, 11:$8.25M, 12:$10M, 13:$13M club option ($2M buyout)

    although there is some protection in those deals.

    Jeter will be as well..I fear.

    Fair point about Romine, craw.

  93. crawdaddy December 30th, 2009 at 10:52 am

    “My focus has been on position players.”

    Rich,

    The first draft under Cashman/Oppenheimer focused mainly on pitching which is why at least six pitchers will have ML careers from that draft.

    As far as the second draft don’t dismiss Romine. Again, Suttle hurting his shoulder compromised that year’s draft along with Angelini being a failure as a pro.

  94. YankeeRay December 30th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    Hollidays numbers are not just coors related. The guy is a line drive hitter period and a hard nosed baseball player who from all indications wants to be a Yankee.
    The reason he has become so attractive is the loss of Damon and Matsuis known numbers vs the unsuraty of Johnson and Grandersons replacement numbers along with the loss of Melky vs a Gardner/Hoffman/Reed Johnson LF platoon.
    Combine all that with potential injury to our projected middle of the lineup and you have all the makings of Holliday being a need now player vs waiting on Crawford next year after this year turns up a bust.
    CB’s analysis along with mine, Bret and MTU’s appear to be compelling if you are a Yankee fan looking to put the best team on the field this year and beyond.

  95. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    Randy, what are you seeing that I’m not seeing in this team? What players are coasting and not putting in the effort? I see a team that is not only very talented, but they play hard. I never once thought this team mailed it in, even when they were slumping. I would never accuse one of my teams of doing that unless I thought it was obvious because that is the worst thing you can accuse team (or individual players) of doing

  96. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    The only way that NYY is going to draft high end position players is to have a string of last place finishes. I’m not interested in seeing them become the Devil Rays of the 1998-2007 version.

  97. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 10:54 am

    melky came up through the minors, tabata had he not been traded. There really are only a few ‘special’ outfield players that make it. The rest develop over time.

  98. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 10:55 am

    “Thank God, they play the games to actually find out if the above becomes true or not.”

    crawdaddy

    Of course, but murphydog’s point was conditional:

    “If the Yankee offensive graph remains roughly flat in relation to last year”

    My post was intended to be as well.

  99. Rick December 30th, 2009 at 10:55 am

    I concur with Boston Dave. Marlon Byrd would be a good short term signing and would likely accept a one deal with a team option for 2011 as protection in case a Carl Crawford pursuit doesn’t work.
    Byrd can play all the outfield positions with respectability. Far less risk than Hoffmann carries. Being a RH hitter, he would get enough work with Gardner giving him an occasional day off against certain pitchers.

  100. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 10:55 am

    Hollidays numbers are not just coors related. The guy is a line drive hitter period and a hard nosed baseball player who from all indications wants to be a Yankee

    ___

    What indications exactly? Because his father said so? Never once heard MH say that, and besides the obvious idea the yankees pay more than other teams, i dont get where it has been obvious he wants to play for the yankees.

  101. talltenor December 30th, 2009 at 10:56 am

    I don’t want Holliday. Seems to me his Oakland numbers are indicative… he mashes in the *NL*…

    I want Carl Crawford, next year.

  102. crawdaddy December 30th, 2009 at 10:56 am

    “The only way that NYY is going to draft high end position players is to have a string of last place finishes. I’m not interested in seeing them become the Devil Rays of the 1998-2007 version.”

    I agree with that which is why the Yankees might have got lucky that Heathcott dropped down to them because of his parental situation.

  103. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 10:56 am

    GB7

    “The only way that NYY is going to draft high end position players is to have a string of last place finishes…”

    What are Heathcott and, Murphy?

  104. Chris December 30th, 2009 at 10:57 am

    “Cashman’s awareness of that value is going to keep the Yankees on top for quite some time.” this makes me warm.

  105. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 10:58 am

    With a bit of a bad break for a Scranton corner outfielder, Daniel Brewer will be in right field in Scranton by mid summer and Laird may be there also, playing third and first bases.

  106. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 10:59 am

    “The first draft under Cashman/Oppenheimer focused mainly on pitching which is why at least six pitchers will have ML careers from that draft.”

    craw

    I understand, and that was a great draft, but I think the 2009 draft demonstrates a recognition of the need for position players. My problem is that there is a bit of a development gap in the system, which is really what makes the case for Holliday as strong as it is.

  107. Coach6423 December 30th, 2009 at 11:00 am

    Joba holds more value in trade than he does in the pen, even if he has a bad year. Even if he struggles this year he is a 24 yr old kid with tremendous upside. Plenty of teams will want him, and his value to this team is as a starting pitcher, either on this team, or a trade with another.

  108. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 11:00 am

    yankees are stocked at Catcher. They can make almost a full team of their minor league catching talent.

  109. crawdaddy December 30th, 2009 at 11:00 am

    Due to the Yankees usual drafting position they really have to work harder in scouting and evaluating prospects in hope of finding a diamond in the rough. Also, it doesn’t hurt to get lucky every now and then.:)

  110. YankeeRay December 30th, 2009 at 11:00 am

    Nud
    December 30th, 2009 at 10:46 am
    The reasonable and logical fix is to sign Johnny Damon back. I mean it is a perfect fix. It should happen!
    —-

    No to Damon. If you are going to pay him 5-7mm then just sign Holliday and backload the first year.
    We need a RH bat to protect the 4 hole not another year of a weak arm in LF as DH is already filled.

  111. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 11:01 am

    I really don’t get why everyone thinks Jeter is going to decline. So what if he doesn’t hit .334? The guy keeps himself in tremendous shape – he’s a born hitter. There have been players who hit well into their 40s. Concern about Posada? I understand. Jeter? I’m not buying it – I expect him to have another very good year. Cano has had one bad year – so has Swisher. Why don’t their good years outweigh their bad? IMO, those are outliers. I think I read that Kevin Long is going to work with Swisher (breaking down his swing) and that could have a positive effect. Tex will be as good, Alex will be better, Granderson will be very good and, if healthy (I’m assuming he is – there’s no point in doing otherwise), so will NJ. The offense doesn’t have to be as good as it was last year (not saying that it won’t) – it’s still a terrific team.

    Doreen, I agree- there’s no rift between the Yankees and Boras.

  112. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 11:02 am

    Players that may be moved to the outfield. Romine, Laird, plus the OFs we already have in the system. As they get closer to MLB, they will start being tested in the OF, expecially if they get here in the next couple years. No place in the IF for these guys.

  113. crawdaddy December 30th, 2009 at 11:03 am

    “craw

    I understand, and that was a great draft, but I think the 2009 draft demonstrates a recognition of the need for position players. My problem is that there is a bit of a development gap in the system, which is really what makes the case for Holliday as strong as it is.”

    Apparently, it’s not strong enough as far as what the Yankee Brass thinks of Holliday.

  114. blake December 30th, 2009 at 11:03 am

    I’m fine with the the Yankees aren’t signing Holliday because he’s expensive and they are cutting payroll arguement. I can’t tell them how much money to spend when they already spend more than anyone else.
    What I’m not fine with is the wait until next year and sign Crawford argument because that does nothing to cut payroll, does nothing to help the 2010 team, and doesn’t upgrade the outfield as much as Holliday would.

  115. jpb1973 December 30th, 2009 at 11:03 am

    Holliday makes ZERO sense. Yankees DO NOT need another 18-20 mil a yr player. There is no chance he signs with the Yankees. Move on. Yanks are champs and they have hopefully improved themselves this offseason. Enjoy….

    ——————————————————-

    Nud, I agree!!! The problem with Holliday isn’t just the $18-20 million that he wants, but the term of the contract (6-8 years). The Yankees have too much money tied up in long term contracts to sluggers. They need to take a pass on this one.

    If the Yankees need a leftfielder they can get one cheap at the trade deadline. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Grady Sizemore or Juan Rivera or Brad Hawpe or Shin Soo Choo patrolling LF in Yankee Stadium by August. None of the names mentioned are as expensive as Holliday and none have a contract that will last as long as Holliday’s will.

  116. Boston Dave - XXVII December 30th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    I agree with Matt RE: the trading deadline.

    It’s quite possible that there will be a ton of salary dumps then.

    It seems most teams feel more compelled to give their fans a reason to buy tickets in Jan-Apr but if they are out of contention in July, it’s time to save $$$.

    If there are glaring needs in July, the Yanks can fill them.

    That’s not to say depth isn’t necessary, but the Yanks have it already. If the #9 hitter is their biggest issue right now, they’re in great shape.

    The 2nd best team in baseball (Philly) has to worry about their shoddy bullpen. The Yanks? Their #9 hitter. Advantage: Yanks

  117. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    why do people keep suggesting backloading a MH contract? The point is to avoid being stuck long term, not to overpay next 5 years and underpay in 2010. If they get MH, it will not be because of a backloaded contract agreement.

  118. YankeeRay December 30th, 2009 at 11:05 am

    tex’s friend
    December 30th, 2009 at 10:55 am
    Hollidays numbers are not just coors related. The guy is a line drive hitter period and a hard nosed baseball player who from all indications wants to be a Yankee

    ___

    What indications exactly? Because his father said so? Never once heard MH say that, and besides the obvious idea the yankees pay more than other teams, i dont get where it has been obvious he wants to play for the yankees.

    I’ve read where he said that the Yanks were his first choice and Mets second. I have not heard him say that nor will we hear anything more out of his mouth until his next teams press conference. Then and only then will we hear that the Yankees were his first choice, if we sign him just like Tex said.

  119. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 11:05 am

    Betsy

    Because there haven’t been many players in MLB history that remain at SS as they approach 40.

    Since SLG isn’t his best tool, 1B and DH never made much sense.

    It could be, however, that Cash doesn’t want to sign a LF to a long term contract because he envisions Jeter playing there in the next few years.

  120. stuckey December 30th, 2009 at 11:05 am

    “It’s still possible (if not likely), however, that the pitching and defense can compensate for any offensive shortfall.”

    Its important to bear in mind that a team that won their division by 8 games, qualified for the playoffs by 16 and never faced an elimination game in the post-season already has a built in buffer before you cite whatever statistical analysis supports your predetermined opinion.

  121. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 11:05 am

    Since 3rd and 1st are locked in, can Gerald Laird be converted to OF? Is he a good enough hitter? I wonder if the Yankees will give Romine playing time in the OF at AA or if they want him to concentrate full-time on catching…….

  122. David in Cal December 30th, 2009 at 11:06 am

    Speaking of flexibility, the Yanks have lost a certain amount of flexibility by trading potentially useful players. The Yank appear to have adequate replacements for Bruney, Coke, Kennedy, Cabrera and Dunn. However, one never knows how a player will actually perform.

    Last year Girardi was able to do a great job of finding effective RPs. Fortunately he had a lot of them to choose from. Melky and Brett were fairly equivalent, but when one was injured, it was important to have the other one. BTW it’s hard for me to see how Boone Logan with his 5.78 lifetime ERA will be the answer.

  123. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 11:06 am

    Clearly Cash has a plan. Either he is stalling on Holliday or he forsees something better next year (cough: Crawford). Why are people so sure that Cashman isnt aware of the situations in front of him? He KNOWS what he is doing.

  124. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2009 at 11:06 am

    “If the Yankees need a leftfielder they can get one cheap at the trade deadline. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Grady Sizemore or Juan Rivera or Brad Hawpe or Shin Soo Choo patrolling LF in Yankee Stadium by August.”

    I would trade Chamberlain AND Montero for Shin Soo Choo, but I can’t imagine why Cleveland would want to trade him.

  125. Boston Dave - XXVII December 30th, 2009 at 11:07 am

    Betsy,

    Mariano Rivera was supposedly “in decline” five years ago.

    There is nothing wrong with a little proactive contingency planning, but any assumption that Jetes will decline dramatically isn’t a safe one.

  126. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? December 30th, 2009 at 11:08 am

    Yankee Ray -

    Thanks for that response. It makes sense. What has changed is not so much Holliday, but the situation with the Yankees. Did most assume we’d re-sign Damon or Matsui or both? Did most assume we’d at least have a Melky/Gardner platoon once again?

    I am totally and honestly on the fence about Holliday. If they get him, I’d be okay with it; if they don’t, I’d be okay with that. However, I’m not comfortable with Gardner being the primary guy in LF. I’d love to know what the platoon would be – ’cause Gardy ain’t an everyday player in my mind.

    This is because I’ve never really seen him play at all, and know nothing about him other than what I’ve recently read. I know that the Cardinals really would love to have him back, but it sure seems like Holliday is in no hurry to go back there.

  127. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 11:09 am

    Rich in NJ
    December 30th, 2009 at 10:56 am
    GB7

    “The only way that NYY is going to draft high end position players is to have a string of last place finishes…”

    What are Heathcott and, Murphy?

    ————————————————————

    They were both hard to signs. Threatening to go to college.

  128. austinmac December 30th, 2009 at 11:09 am

    To all of those who act as if the Yankees signing Holliday will ruin the fun of the baseball season, I say 1998 was fun and so were, I expect all the teams in the 30s who won by 15+ games were fun. I want my team to be the best they can be. To want otherwise as a fan is silly. When AROD gets walked repeatedly in the playoffs because of the lack of a significant 5 hole hitter, that will not be fun.

  129. Tim December 30th, 2009 at 11:10 am

    Shin Soo Choo – Bless you

  130. Jerkface December 30th, 2009 at 11:10 am

    I’m not worried about the offense. The only thing that will stop the Yankee offense from being in the top 5 is injury to more than 1 player.

    We didn’t have anyone with an OPS over 1 last year and only 2 with an OPS of .900. The yankee offense is built around having multiple good hitters, not multiple fantastic overwhelmingly good hitters.

    I think everyone except the possible LF can put up a 120 OPS+ without breaking a sweat. Decline, or no decline.

  131. Abdababdaserser December 30th, 2009 at 11:10 am

    This Holliday/Crawford/LF debate keeps having so many repeating the same thing over and over. This is no different than the Joba to the pen debate.

  132. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 11:10 am

    I would trade Chamberlain AND Montero for Shin Soo Choo, but I can’t imagine why Cleveland would want to trade him.

    ___

    WHAT!!!

    I dont know that i would even trade one of those two for that. Sizemore maybe…

  133. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 11:11 am

    Rich, I’m talking about his hitting…..and we’ll see about Jeter’s SS play. I don’t think he cares about what history says about older SS…….

  134. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 11:11 am

    I used the word: “possible”

    stuckey used the words:”predetermined opinion.”

    Dictionary.com defines “predetermined” as follows: to settle or decide in advance.

    Consequently, I think your description of the meaning of my post is inapt.

  135. jpb1973 December 30th, 2009 at 11:11 am

    “If the Yankees need a leftfielder they can get one cheap at the trade deadline. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Grady Sizemore or Juan Rivera or Brad Hawpe or Shin Soo Choo patrolling LF in Yankee Stadium by August.”

    I would trade Chamberlain AND Montero for Shin Soo Choo, but I can’t imagine why Cleveland would want to trade him.

    ——————————————————–

    The Indians are projected to have major budget issues again this season. They are quickly becoming the Pittsburgh Pirates of the American League.

  136. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    “I dont know that i would even trade one of those two for that. Sizemore maybe…”

    Then I wish you were Cleveland’s GM…

  137. Jerkface December 30th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    I would trade Chamberlain AND Montero for Shin Soo Choo, but I can’t imagine why Cleveland would want to trade him.

    I love Choo, but really? You’d really trade Montero AND Joba for Shin Shoo Choo? He is a good player but he isn’t a complete player. He does have a lefty split.

  138. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    Betsy

    I’m not sure why Jeter’s thoughts about older SS matter.

  139. Patrick from CT December 30th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    Rich in NJ
    December 30th, 2009 at 10:27 am
    Steve Goldman:

    A HAIRSTON NOTE

    Speaking of Gardner, I see via MLBTraderumors that Jerry Hairston, Jr. could be re-signed to play some left field. Hairston is versatile, which is a nice thing to have in a bench player, but: he’s a career .256/.331/.367 hitter against right-handers. You know who hits right-handers better than that? Everybody. He’s also a career .264/.323/.386 hitter against left-handers. You know who hits left-handers better than that? Everyone who is right-handed. There is no point. If you’re the Cincinnati Reds or the Houston Astros maybe you have to consider insane options like this. If you’re the Yankees, even if you’re operating on a (relatively speaking) tightened budget, you’re not obligated to do anything so dramatically self-defeating.

    ===========================================================

    Adding a .260 hitter that has good speed and can play all over the field is a good thing in a bench guy, no?
    If he was a better player he won’t be an opition for the bench, right?

    IMHO, Jerry Hairston is a good option to start 15-20 games in LF, 5-10 in RF, and 5-10 at 3rd along with pitch running, late game D sub. Were talking about insurance on the bench in a vet not an every day player. I just don’t think you can have a bench with only kids and this guy is worth 1.5mil for 1 year.

  140. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    “The Indians are projected to have major budget issues again this season. They are quickly becoming the Pittsburgh Pirates of the American League.”

    Choo is cost-controlled for a long time.

  141. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 11:13 am

    I agree with Jerkface. That would be a horrible trade.

  142. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 11:14 am

    The only way Montero/JOba/Hughes leave this team is for a HUGE superstar the caliber of King Felix. They didnt even want to trade two of them for Halladay. Certainly not a RF with 1-2 good years on a bad team.

  143. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 11:14 am

    Patrick in CT

    No, I would rather have Pena to be the BUI and sign a real OF with the money saved.

  144. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 11:14 am

    Betsy, I’m not really sure if Laird could be converted or not. He’s always spent his fielding practice at third and first. He’s not a blazer but, he’s not a plow horse. He could possibly fit in right field. Maybe for the next couple of years, he could swing between the 4 corners.

  145. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 11:16 am

    if cleveland has budget issues, then more likely to trade sizemore than choo.

    now an outfield of granderson/sizemore/swisher or whatever would be even more impressive.

  146. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    I gotta laugh at those that say Jeter’s not a good option at first or DH because of his low power/run production, but think that Johnson is just fine.

  147. Nud December 30th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    Damon or Marlon Byrd?? HMMMMMMMMMMM let me see……………….Here’s Johnny!!!

  148. stuckey December 30th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    The reason you essentially have one group of posters posting the same argument over and over again and another group doing the same is neither of these groups are speaking a common language.

    There can be no common ground found because the premises are so dissimilar.

    The common thread (though not universal, to be fair) I see among the pro-Holiday camp is the unwillingness or inability to acknowledge the Yankees might in fact have a budget or limit.

    It’s the “buy-now, worry about paying later’ mentality. I can’t imagine one of these people being “understanding” next year if Mauer was on the market and the Yankees weren’t in on him because they went OVER budget this year, or the next year after that if Felix Hernandez was.

    The Holiday campers would be the most zealous advocates of doing whatever it took to get these players too.

    Now you can rationalize it now by arguing that neither will likely be on the market, so why save, but that’s NOT the point and it IS a rationalization and easy to make when you don’t truly believe the issue would ever come down to that.

    If at the end of the day, your premise is the Yankees will or should NEVER be limited from acquiring the top players available year-to-year, OF COURSE you’re going to strongly advocate signing Holiday, because you’ve disqualified the only compelling reason not to. And I’d agree with that premise. IF the Yankees budget is just hot air, and it won’t hamper options in 2010, 2011, etc, than OF COURSE you sign him.

    And that’s really what it comes down to. Whether or not you truly believe the Yankees actually have a budget.

    THAT’s really what’s being “debated” (to be generous), the Holiday situation is just window dressing.

  149. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    GB7

    “They were both hard to signs. Threatening to go to college.”

    Right, so the strategy is working.

  150. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    Jerkface-

    I know I’ve been arguing for a righty hitter to offset some of the lost offense against lefties, but I’d make an exception for Choo.

    First, he’s kind of like Matsui, in that although he’s left-handed he hits lefties pretty well. For the last two years he’s had an OPS over .800 against them, and of course he kills righties.

    Second, he’s so cheap, and will be relatively cheap for quite a while.

    Third, he’s still young.

    I know we have a lot of hopes for Montero, and Chamberlain, but Choo already is what we hope Montero and Chamberlain will be some day (I’m not a big believer in the Montero will catch theory).

    Choo would fit our needs pretty much like a glove, so yes, I’d certainly consider trading Joba and Montero for him.

  151. Nud December 30th, 2009 at 11:19 am

    definitely Grady Sizemore…..Wonderful player. The would be a great get!!

  152. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 11:19 am

    Actually, stuckey, there is a middle ground. Posters like myself who want Holliday, but don’t think the Yankees will sign him.

  153. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    Jerkface, I know what point you were trying to make, but the Yankees have do multiple fantastic hitters; if they don’t, what team does?

    Doreen, I don’t believe Cashman views Gardner as anything more than OF depth – a fourth OF. I’d be absolutely floored if they don’t sign someone else to start.

  154. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    GB7

    “I gotta laugh at those that say Jeter’s not a good option at first or DH because of his low power/run production, but think that Johnson is just fine.”

    Jeter isn’t willing to sign a one year deal at $5.5m, is he?

    If he was, he would be a good stopgap solution, like Nick.

  155. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 11:21 am

    It will be interesting to see how fast NYY moves Deangelo Mack, Neill Medchill and Zoilo Almonte along. They don’t have the holes in their swings to match the ones in Melky Mesa’s.

  156. Patrick from CT December 30th, 2009 at 11:21 am

    Please let’s stop with this Damon coming back stuff. He’s not coming back. He would have been the DH and #2 hitter. Those spots now belong to Nick Johnson.

  157. Jerkface December 30th, 2009 at 11:23 am

    I would trade probably anything other than Jesus Montero for Shin Shoo Choo. Montero is doing a far better job of dominating the minor leagues than Choo ever did and he strikes out far less. He is a special bat. You don’t trade a special bat for Shin Shoo Choo

  158. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 11:23 am

    Rich in NJ
    December 30th, 2009 at 11:20 am
    GB7

    “I gotta laugh at those that say Jeter’s not a good option at first or DH because of his low power/run production, but think that Johnson is just fine.”

    Jeter isn’t willing to sign a one year deal at $5.5m, is he?

    If he was, he would be a good stopgap solution, like Nick.

    ————————————————————

    Don’t play word games with me. You’re the one that used that as to why Jeter wasn’t good enough for those positions.

  159. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 11:23 am

    I see Montero as a C with sick offensive stats.

    I see Joba as at least a #2-3 starter or a closer.

    I’m not giving that up for Choo.

  160. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 11:25 am

    the argument that Choo is young is exactly why cleveland won’t trade him. Young and Cheap, why would they give that up when they have him cost controlled for 3-4 more years? Money is their issue, so yankees should try to make a boston/martinez deal for sizemore instead.

  161. stuckey December 30th, 2009 at 11:25 am

    “Dictionary.com defines “predetermined” as follows: to settle or decide in advance.”

    What statistical analysis besides personally anecdotal are you using to conclude the Yankees offense will “possibly/probably” decline?

  162. Patrick from CT December 30th, 2009 at 11:26 am

    Rich in NJ
    December 30th, 2009 at 11:14 am
    Patrick in CT

    No, I would rather have Pena to be the BUI and sign a real OF with the money saved.

    ==========================================================
    OK, who’s ging to be better than Gardy for 2,3, or even 4 mil on a 1 year deal.

    Pena is likely going to be on the regardless of having a Jerry Hairston type.

  163. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 11:26 am

    Rich, my point is history doesn’t matter. Jeter is going to play as well or as poorly as he is capable of playing and it doesn’t matter what history indicates about older SS. He keeps himself in fantastic shape –I’m just saying that we’ll see. I’m not assuming Jeter to be incapable of anything……

  164. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2009 at 11:27 am

    “I would trade probably anything other than Jesus Montero for Shin Shoo Choo. Montero is doing a far better job of dominating the minor leagues than Choo ever did and he strikes out far less. He is a special bat. You don’t trade a special bat for Shin Shoo Choo”

    But, Montero may have no position other than DH. His being a catcher is a roll of the dice, and I don’t think the odds on the dice roll are that good.

    Also, I don’t put as much negative emphasis on strikeouts as you do.

    Plus, Choo has had an OPS+ of 151 and 137 the last two years, a career 133 OPS+. He’s getting better.

    Montero may turn out to be great – he may also turn out to be the stuff dreams are made of. I’d certainly consider it if Cleveland would.

  165. rconn23 December 30th, 2009 at 11:28 am

    Where is Damon going to go?

    Who is going to give him the two-year deal he’s seeking?
    Name the team. Heck, name any team who’s even seriously been mentioned in connection with giving him a two-year deal.

    The longer Damon is on the market, the greater the chance that he resigns with the Yankees, and for a one-year deal.

  166. Jerkface December 30th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    Jerkface, I know what point you were trying to make, but the Yankees have do multiple fantastic hitters; if they don’t, what team does?

    They don’t. No one does. No team can field a lineup that has more than 2 guys who will probably have an OPS+ of more than 140.

    Next year you are looking at Mark Teixeira + A-rod as the guys on the team that could have a 140 or better OPS+. Thats awesome. Everyone else will be around 110-130, regardless of decline or increase and they will have the best offense in the majors.

    Even the phillies and their awesome offense only had 1 player with a 140 OPS+, Ryan Howard.

  167. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    GB7

    “Don’t play word games with me. You’re the one that used that as to why Jeter wasn’t good enough for those positions.”

    What word games? Nick has the ability when healthy to be a 140 or greater OPS+ hitter, Jeter doesn’t.

    So on a one year contract, why not take a chance that he can be that type of player? If he isn’t, the cost is rather low.

    Jeter, otoh, will be paid $20m, in large part as a result of his ability to play SS.

    So there is an underlying reality to the words.

  168. stuckey December 30th, 2009 at 11:30 am

    “Actually, stuckey, there is a middle ground. Posters like myself who want Holliday, but don’t think the Yankees will sign him.”

    My point was more directed to those who think the Yankees SHOULD sign him, and those who think they should not.

    I too would like Holiday, and also don’t think the Yankees should sign him, but ALSO believe that if a spending limit is real (and to conclude it is not is purely speculation) then the investment is probably not wise.

  169. Jerkface December 30th, 2009 at 11:31 am

    But, Montero may have no position other than DH. His being a catcher is a roll of the dice, and I don’t think the odds on the dice roll are that good.

    I would find a position for him. I think he ends up catching, backing up 1st, and DH when he isn’t catching.

    Choo owns, and I don’t overrate strike outs like many do, I am just pointing out. Montero has ridiculous contact ability and power. Choo can hit .300 and hit 20 HRs while striking out 150 times. Montero will hit .300 and hit 40 HRs while striking out half as much or less.

  170. crawdaddy December 30th, 2009 at 11:31 am

    “But, Montero may have no position other than DH. His being a catcher is a roll of the dice, and I don’t think the odds on the dice roll are that good.

    Also, I don’t put as much negative emphasis on strikeouts as you do.

    Plus, Choo has had an OPS+ of 151 and 137 the last two years, a career 133 OPS+. He’s getting better.

    Montero may turn out to be great – he may also turn out to be the stuff dreams are made of. I’d certainly consider it if Cleveland would.”

    Which is why the Yankees evaluation process comes into play here. If they think he can stick at catcher then you don’t make that trade. Matter of fact, I’m not so sure you make that trade if he can’t stick at catcher because their evaluation process might suggest one of those special bats, you just don’t give up.

  171. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    Unless Choo applies for citizenship and is granted it, he’ll be leaving to put two years in the South Korean military.

  172. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    They will find a place for Montero if he cannot catch regularly. If he comes to the majors and puts up the offense everyone thinks he will, he can DH for all we care.

  173. MTU December 30th, 2009 at 11:34 am

    The probability of the Yanks signing MH is low.

    But it isn’t zero.

    They are stressing budget concerns this year but they said that signing Tex was “fantasy”.

    They were willing to go with NS at first.

    How’d that turn out.

    Now they say they are willing to go with BG/other.

    Wonder how that might turn out.

    When and if MH signs with the Cards is when this debate can finally be put to rest.

    And if we see him mashin next year for the Cards will we have any regrets ?

    He may be a big ticket item, and somewhat of a luxury but he is very attractively priced and we have a longer term need.

    The farm system is barren for LF, and might not even get Crawford.

    As far as Mauer goes it aint like LF.

    Montero, Romine, Sanchez, Murphy, Hash, etc. say hello.

    We have depth there.

    JMTC

  174. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 11:34 am

    Rich, I agree about Hairston…..I hope they bring him back. I think he’d want to come back as well; the only teams he could start for are lousy/mediocre teams and would he want to go back to those teams after winning a WS? I doubt it.

    GB, I like the idea of having versatile players on a team……I know you’ve been a proponent of this. The players don’t have to be great at multiple positions, just serviceable. By the way, how long do you think the Yankees will wait before determining whether Montero will stick at catcher? I ask because if the Yankees want to convert Romine, shouldn’t they do it ASAP?

  175. Choo on this December 30th, 2009 at 11:34 am

    the argument that Choo is young is exactly why cleveland won’t trade him. Young and Cheap, why would they give that up when they have him cost controlled for 3-4 more years?
    ***************************************************

    and yet seattle gave him up for nothing…yes NOTHING…there’s got to be a reason…

    on that note i’d love to have sizemore for basically 2 AA pitchers who may turn onto players or may fall on their faces..

  176. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 11:35 am

    “What statistical analysis besides personally anecdotal are you using to conclude the Yankees offense will “possibly/probably” decline?”

    Posada turns 39 in 2010. His OPS+ was the second highest it has been since he was 31.

    Jeter turns 36. His OPS+ was as high at it has been since he was 25, matching what it was in 2006.

    Projecting some regression isn’t unreasonable.

  177. Jerkface December 30th, 2009 at 11:35 am

    The bavasi era Mariners, who were giant morons.

  178. Patrick from CT December 30th, 2009 at 11:35 am

    Jeter is going to get a 4 year deal in the 18-20mil range because he is, well Jeter.
    Jeter will be the primary SS for the next 2-3 years unless he gets hurt. Afer that, he will be the DH not the LF. If he had continued to get worse at SS this past year they may have tried to switch him to LF, but the guy just won the GG.
    He will be on the team until he’s at least 40 or there will be a big PR problem in Yankee land.

  179. blake December 30th, 2009 at 11:36 am

    They just show the 2010 projected Giants lineup on the Hot Stove replay..Yuck, now thats a lineup to complain about.

  180. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 11:36 am

    My guess is the Yankees aren’t going for Mauer either when they have the catching depth they have. They are likely saving the $$ for starting pitching. Lee would be the likely target.

  181. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 11:37 am

    Rich in NJ
    December 30th, 2009 at 11:29 am
    GB7

    “Don’t play word games with me. You’re the one that used that as to why Jeter wasn’t good enough for those positions.”

    What word games? Nick has the ability when healthy to be a 140 or greater OPS+ hitter, Jeter doesn’t.

    So on a one year contract, why not take a chance that he can be that type of player? If he isn’t, the cost is rather low.

    Jeter, otoh, will be paid $20m, in large part as a result of his ability to play SS.

    So there is an underlying reality to the words.

    ————————————————————

    He’s done it once. I’d prefer that Johnson had the ability to stay off of the DL. Let me know the next time either happens. You said nothing about money until you lost the discussion. What will you change, now?

  182. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2009 at 11:37 am

    If Montero is going to succeed as a major league catcher I agree you don’t make the trade.

    I personally think the odds are against him working out as catcher, so I’d consider the trade on the “bird in the hand” theory. As a DH, Montero even if he hits great will not be as valuable as Choo is now.

    I of course agree the Yanks have more insight into Montero’s catching potential than I do. But I have seen a lot of top prospects not work out over the years, and a lot a catching hopefuls not make it. You have to discount significantly for the possibility.

  183. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 11:38 am

    GB7

    “He’s done it once. I’d prefer that Johnson had the ability to stay off of the DL. Let me know the next time either happens. You said nothing about money until you lost the discussion. What will you change, now?”

    Then I was remiss. My bad.

  184. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 11:39 am

    Jeter is a team player and if he thinks his play is harmful to the team, he will not stubbornly stay at SS, but i dont think that will ever be an issue. Will his D suffer around 40? Probably. Will it get so bad that he costs the team a title? Not likely. Jeter wants to play til he is 42 i think i heard him say. that is 5 more years after this contract. he wants the chance to breat Pete Rose’s hits record (whether he says it or not).

  185. GeorgeInJax December 30th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    Let’s keep a little perspective on Brett Gardner.
    Last season was his – Rookie season.
    He has played in a grand total 150 Major League games the last 2 yrs. (most of them as a late inning replacement)

    I’m not saying he’s the next Willie Mays, but if that’s who ends up in LF, just give the kid a chance to improve.
    Batting .270 eith a .345 OBP last year wasn’t that horrible.

    If he can bump up his OBP, he will be a threat on the bases and run scoring machine in front of our top of the lineup.

  186. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    “Unless Choo applies for citizenship and is granted it, he’ll be leaving to put two years in the South Korean military.”

    Really? Are you sure?

  187. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    Patrick from CT

    “OK, who’s ging to be better than Gardy for 2,3, or even 4 mil on a 1 year deal.

    Pena is likely going to be on the regardless of having a Jerry Hairston type.”

    TBH, I’m not sure. But I want a real OF. Hairston’s ability to track flyballs appeared to be worse than Damon’s.

  188. Ed - campaigning for Josh Willingham (it worked for Chad Guadin) December 30th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    “Unless Choo applies for citizenship and is granted it, he’ll be leaving to put two years in the South Korean military.”

    GB,

    I believe Choo was already granted permission to not to join the military.

  189. Phil the Thrill December 30th, 2009 at 11:41 am

    The Yanks need Holliday because, a) they have a hole in LF, b) he’s the best player to fill it, c) he’s on the right side of 30, d) he’ll still be in his prime when Jeter, Po and ARod begin steeply declining.

    It’s not just about getting him for his year, it’s about getting him to cover the decline of the older players over the next few years.

  190. Jerkface December 30th, 2009 at 11:41 am

    Jeter is a team player and if he thinks his play is harmful to the team, he will not stubbornly stay at SS, but i dont think that will ever be an issue.

    Jeter already plays injured to the point that its harmful to the team, I bet he would stubbornly stay a SS

  191. jvcelt December 30th, 2009 at 11:41 am

    damon for 1 yr… nady,gardner or reed to platoon/reserve

  192. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 11:42 am

    Patrick in CT

    “Afer that, he will be the DH not the LF”

    What if Montero is the full- or part-time DH by then and is putting up an OPS of around .950-1.000. Jeter will not supplant him.

  193. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 11:42 am

    I really don’t care if Montero eventually has to be a DH; his bat is supposed to be phenomenal – you make room for that. I hate the argument that Montero only has value at catcher. That’s where his greatest value lies, but a bat like that plays anywhere.

  194. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 11:42 am

    Why is Choo so valuble? I looked at his stats and the only year i saw anything was last year. .300/20/86 hitting in the middle of the lineup. Good numbers for sure. Special enough to take the chance that Montero flops? NO!

  195. jpb1973 December 30th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    the argument that Choo is young is exactly why cleveland won’t trade him. Young and Cheap, why would they give that up when they have him cost controlled for 3-4 more years? Money is their issue, so yankees should try to make a boston/martinez deal for sizemore instead.

    —————————————————–

    If the Yankees, or any other team for that matter, wants Choo they could include a boatload of cash in the deal instead of a boatload of prospects. There aren’t too many teams that have the option of purely “buying” a player…but the Yankees are one of them. Obviously they would have to include some prospects in a deal for Choo, but the inclusion of $$$ could be more important to the Indians than talent.

  196. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    Jeter already plays injured to the point that its harmful to the team, I bet he would stubbornly stay a SS

    ___

    I have never seen Jeter cost this team a season with his defense.

  197. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 11:44 am

    Betsy -high on pie
    December 30th, 2009 at 11:34 am

    GB, I like the idea of having versatile players on a team……I know you’ve been a proponent of this. The players don’t have to be great at multiple positions, just serviceable. By the way, how long do you think the Yankees will wait before determining whether Montero will stick at catcher? I ask because if the Yankees want to convert Romine, shouldn’t they do it ASAP?

    ————————————————————

    It’s hard to really say how long they’ll wait, Betsy. He and Romine have split the catching on the same team for most of two years. I’d assume that they’ll wait a good amount of time. He’s more than a year younger than Romine, but, NYY moved Montero up the ladder faster for a reason, besides his bat. He’ll get some great instruction this year in Scranton from Butch Wynegar. They’ll have three young multi-positional catchers when they join Cervelli. Cervelli was taking quite a bit of 3rd base instruction this year with Rodriguez. It’ll be something to watch for.

  198. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 11:45 am

    The Yankees don’t believe they need Holliday or else they would be in on him. Whatever arguments we’ve been throwing out there, you can count on it that the Yankees have already mentioned in their discussions. They chose to improve their pitching over LF and that was the right move.

  199. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    “I looked at his stats and the only year i saw anything was last year.”

    Really? You don’t like his 2008? Choo was .309/.397/.549. Careerwise, he’s .296/.386/.491.

    You’re a hard grader.

  200. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 11:47 am

    Wave Your Hat
    December 30th, 2009 at 11:40 am
    “Unless Choo applies for citizenship and is granted it, he’ll be leaving to put two years in the South Korean military.”

    Really? Are you sure?

    ————————————————————

    Absolutely. It’s manditory. The only way around it is for him to play on either two gold medal winning teams in the Olympics or World Baseball Classic. He’s got about 2 years to start his military service. It will be an interesting development to watch.

  201. Jerkface December 30th, 2009 at 11:48 am

    I have never seen Jeter cost this team a season with his defense.

    Its hard for 1 player to cost the TEAM , but Jeter has played through leg and hand injuries that crippled his batting ability, such as 2008.

    Its perfect evidence that he would likely want to play SS until the team forces him or he believes he cannot do it (which is probably never)

  202. David in Cal December 30th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    Patrick, I agree with you about Hairston. I note that you were careful to write that everyone “who is right-handed” hits lefties better than Hairston’s .264/.323/.386. As you were no doubt aware, our new CF is worse against lefties — lifetime .210/.270/.344. Bad as Hairston is, even he would be an upgrade platooning for Granderson against LH pitchers. I’m hoping that Long helps Grandy to some huge improvement, but I’m not counting on it.

  203. Uncle Ellsworth (Expert textpert choking smokers, don't you think the joker laughs at you) December 30th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    Oh Jeter hate, I have missed you so.

  204. Jerkface December 30th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    The only way around it is for him to play on either two gold medal winning teams in the Olympics or World Baseball Classic.

    Other tournaments count, last I heard he was going to play in a Asian baseball tournament to try and circumvent the military service

  205. Neil December 30th, 2009 at 11:50 am

    As fans, we’ll be hearing a lot about Tony Pena working with Jesus Montero to improve his catching mechanics.
    For those fortunate to get to Tampa, it will be seen on a daily basis.
    At AAA, Butch Wynegar will see to it that the work continues.

  206. stuckey December 30th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    “Jeter already plays injured to the point that its harmful to the team, I bet he would stubbornly stay a SS”

    Are you suggesting Jeter has refused to come out of the line-up when the Yankees had a more productive option on the bench?

    Whom would that have been exactly?

  207. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    Jerkface, you’re really down on Jeter……because he’s hyper-competitive? If that’s the case, then I can assume you were down on Matsui on wanting to continue his games played streak?

  208. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    I believe that Jeter will be more receptive to a position change as long as he feels he’s not hurting the team on defense, but, also, as soon as he becomes MLB’s first and only 3,000 hit shortstop. That will be quite an achievement.

  209. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 11:52 am

    “Oh Jeter hate, I have missed you so.”

    Do you really think that Jeter should be immune to reasoned criticism?

    What exactly has been posted that isn’t reasoned criticism?

  210. SCX December 30th, 2009 at 11:52 am

    I just hope Holliday signs (anywhere) soon. I’m sick of hearing his name now. Just like Halladay, both at the trade deadline and as a free agent. Just sign a contract somewhere to end all this redundant speculation.

    That said, we don’t need him. If we can’t score runs with Jeter, NJ, Tex, ARod, Jorge, Cano, Granderson, and Swisher, then we have bigger problems than who is playing LF. Not to mention our improved pitching.

  211. stuckey December 30th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    “Its hard for 1 player to cost the TEAM , but Jeter has played through leg and hand injuries that crippled his batting ability, such as 2008.”

    And who was available to the Yankees at SS that would have provided superior offense to even a crippled Jeter?

  212. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    Jerkface
    December 30th, 2009 at 11:49 am
    The only way around it is for him to play on either two gold medal winning teams in the Olympics or World Baseball Classic.

    Other tournaments count, last I heard he was going to play in a Asian baseball tournament to try and circumvent the military service

    ————————————————————

    It could be that the Asian Games are included also. Not sure of that.

  213. reason December 30th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    “a) they have a hole in LF”
    But filling that hole would ruin baseball, destroy competitive balance, nullify the 2010 season, and remove any joy from their inevitable championship.

    “b) he’s the best player to fill it”
    Carl Crawford is faaaast, has good speed, great range, steals bases, freaks out pitchers while threatening to steal second, unlike MH he’s not subject to decline

    I see no reason to further shred your argument. This knowledge is usually dispersed in small doses, don’t want to completely blow your mind. ;)

  214. Jerkface December 30th, 2009 at 11:55 am

    Jerkface, you’re really down on Jeter……because he’s hyper-competitive? If that’s the case, then I can assume you were down on Matsui on wanting to continue his games played streak

    I’m not down on Jeter. I just recognize one of his flaws, which is that he IS hyper-competitive, and has a lot of self-confidence. Sometimes we might have different opinions of ‘helping the team’. Jeter covers up and plays through a lot of injury because he feels the team needs him to do that. A lot of his worst slumps have come after he got beaned in the hand and clearly lost alot of his batting ability until it healed up.

    Did the yankees have anyone amazing enough to cover for him at a Jeterian level? Probably not. But I think having a guy like Ramiro Pena or Alberto Gonzalez playing stellar defense while Jeter healed up would have been preferable.

    Before he worked on his range and positioning, Jeter was not a good fielding short stop. So when he went into a batting slump he didn’t provide much overall value to the team.

    Lets say he got injured on his hand, and if he played through it he would be 80% in 3 weeks. Or he could sit for a week and be 80% after 1. I’d rather he sit for the week than kill the team for 3.

    And yes, I was very down on Matsui’s stupid iron man streak. I respect his need to do it for his home country, but it ended up negatively impacting him in the future.

  215. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 11:56 am

    I am no fan of brett gardner, BUT…

    Show me a team with an amazing #9 hitter.

    I agree if we cannot score runs with a lineup 1-8 of
    Jeter
    NJ
    Tex
    Alex
    CG
    Posada
    Cano
    Swisher

    then we have more problems than Brett Gardner.

  216. stuckey December 30th, 2009 at 11:56 am

    Rich, the statistical analysis I’ve seen that mostly all suggest the Yankees are probably a superior offensive team (on paper) than last year HAVE accounted for digression from players like Jeter and Posada.

    I’ve not yet seen on analysis that has plugged in their final 2009 totals as their 2010 projections.

    Perhaps we are just looking at different stats?

  217. crawdaddy December 30th, 2009 at 11:56 am

    “I believe that Jeter will be more receptive to a position change as long as he feels he’s not hurting the team on defense, but, also, as soon as he becomes MLB’s first and only 3,000 hit shortstop. That will be quite an achievement.”

    I would have to believe that the Yankee Brass and Jeter will talk about this issue during their contract negotiations.

  218. blake December 30th, 2009 at 11:56 am

    Stuckey,
    Your 11:17 post isn’t entirely true. Some folks may feel that way, meaning they feel the Yankees should sign every free agent every year. However, some of us just feel that Holliday is a good value for the production he will provide and would rather see the Yankees invest now in a good player at a good price than wait and possibly pay more later for less value. If the Yankees do have a budget and Holliday can’t fit in that budget fine, but that should also mean they can’t afford Crawford next year either. Unless they are planning on going with patchwork in LF every year then its something that will need to be addressed at some point. They can address the problem now while the rest of the team is still young enough to win or they can wait until inevitable decline sets in with other key players.

  219. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 11:57 am

    GB, thanks. I just want the Yankees to hold onto Romine even if Montero sticks……and moving Montero up so he can benefit from Wynegar’s instruction makes sense. You’d mentioned previously that Cervelli had taken some grounders at 3rd – that’s a good idea. I’m really taking to this idea of players being able to specialize in one position while still being decent at another. It’s a fantastic way to maximize value and roster space.

    How are you doing today?

  220. crawdaddy December 30th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    “I’m not down on Jeter. I just recognize one of his flaws, which is that he IS hyper-competitive, and has a lot of self-confidence.”

    Wow, name me one great player that doesn’t have those attributes which I don’t view as flaws?

  221. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    .300/11/69

    Yeah we were really hurt by Jeter’s stats in 2008.

  222. Erica - always OPPC - Bring Johnny Back!!! December 30th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    I am leaving for the airport in 4 hours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  223. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 11:59 am

    stuckey

    Can you link it?

  224. RS December 30th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    Didn’t the Yankees score 960+ runs with Andy Phillips as their primary first baseman (2007)?

    Matt Holliday would be a luxury, but the Yankees will still score a boatload of runs even if LF is considered a weakness.

    I would rather they shore up the bench by resigning Hairston and Hinske. A bench of Hairston (INF), Hinske (corner OF), Hoffman (OF), Cervelli (C), and maybe Pena (INF/pinch runner) would have athleticism, power, speed, experience, and versatility. The bench we have now is missing power and experience.

  225. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    crawdaddy
    December 30th, 2009 at 11:56 am
    “I believe that Jeter will be more receptive to a position change as long as he feels he’s not hurting the team on defense, but, also, as soon as he becomes MLB’s first and only 3,000 hit shortstop. That will be quite an achievement.”

    I would have to believe that the Yankee Brass and Jeter will talk about this issue during their contract negotiations.

    ————————————————————

    Cashman had better be able to outtalk Jeter, then. Jeter mentioned in a late season interview that he’d have no issues about moving to another spot if it was in team interests, but, the Yankees haven’t brought it up. It was on one of the YES Network interviews.

  226. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    “And yes, I was very down on Matsui’s stupid iron man streak.”

    I agree. I have probably had more internet arguments over that issue than any other.

  227. Patrick from CT December 30th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    Rich in NJ
    December 30th, 2009 at 11:42 am
    Patrick in CT

    “Afer that, he will be the DH not the LF”

    What if Montero is the full- or part-time DH by then and is putting up an OPS of around .950-1.000. Jeter will not supplant him.

    Good point but, Montero is what 21. Montero will be playing in the field somewhere, if not C maybe RF. How many 25 year old DHs are there?

  228. Jerkface December 30th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    Wow, name me one great player that doesn’t have those attributes which I don’t view as flaws?

    Don’t act like those are awesome things. There is a thing called overconfidence, and everyone in major league baseball is competitive and driven, but being in an extreme where you push yourself too hard is a negative.

    Those flaws can also be positives in certain situations as well (never giving up, working out hard, maintaining ability etc), but there are situations where they present negatives. Such as playing through injury, believing you are good at something when clearly you are aren’t (Jeter never believed defensive metrics because Joe Torre never said squat, then Cash and Girardi bring it up and suddenly he is working on his lateral range?)

    Also Jeter had his lowest Isolated Power of his CAREER in 2008. Worse than even his rookie season. Injury completely sapped his power.

  229. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    I’m wondering if Laird turns out to be what I think he will, if Rodriguez would make a move to a corner outfield, especially right field. He’s certainly got the arm and speed.

  230. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    Jerkface, ok you’re consistent. Maybe more of the blame should be put on the manager? Jeter and hyper-competitive players (which, by the way, I think is an incredible quality) need to be protected from themselves……..If he has to sit, he has to sit. In Jeter’s case, he’s ultra-confident (AJ recently said he’s the most confident player he’s ever played with); perhaps this confidence works against him when he’s hurt. In other words, perhaps he thinks that he can overcome any injury just by effort.

  231. Erica - always OPPC - Bring Johnny Back!!! December 30th, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    Sorry if this is old news, but apparently there is concern that Bay won’t pass his physical….

    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/ru.....mlb,211179

  232. crawdaddy December 30th, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    “Don’t act like those are awesome things. There is a thing called overconfidence, and everyone in major league baseball is competitive and driven, but being in an extreme where you push yourself too hard is a negative.”

    Don’t act like you know what you’re talking about either because every great player has those attributes. It’s what drives them to be great because it takes more than just talent to reach greatness.

  233. stuckey December 30th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    “However, some of us just feel that Holliday is a good value for the production he will provide and would rather see the Yankees invest now in a good player at a good price than wait and possibly pay more later for less value.”

    Understood, but going over budget to buy something “on sale” is still going over budget.

    My question to you would be a simple one. IF the Yankees go well over $200m this year by signing Holliday, would you be okay then if the Yankees had to stay of the market for Mauer, Lee or Beckett next year, or Hernandez the year after?

    Bear in mind its a hypothetical proposal to make a point. I’m ASKING you to respond to the situation that those players would all be available, not asking you to comment on the likelihood of them being so.

  234. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    Betsy -high on pie
    December 30th, 2009 at 11:57 am
    GB, thanks. I just want the Yankees to hold onto Romine even if Montero sticks……and moving Montero up so he can benefit from Wynegar’s instruction makes sense. You’d mentioned previously that Cervelli had taken some grounders at 3rd – that’s a good idea. I’m really taking to this idea of players being able to specialize in one position while still being decent at another. It’s a fantastic way to maximize value and roster space.

    How are you doing today?

    ————————————————————

    Of all of the young players that I’ve seen go though Charleston and Tampa, Romine is probably the best pure athlete of the group. He has a great bat, power and he has speed and agility. He’s also young.

  235. Uncle Ellsworth (Expert textpert choking smokers, don't you think the joker laughs at you) December 30th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    Sorry Rich
    Knee Jerk reaction caused by Blog Fever
    I thought after last season the talk of Jeter moving or retiring would be put on ice for a year.

  236. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    Jeter will never be the Yanks DH. Please.

    I don’t see any point in worrying about Derek’s future. Let us all hope he can play a plus shortstop for as many years as possible.

  237. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    Patrick from CT

    “Good point but, Montero is what 21. Montero will be playing in the field somewhere, if not C maybe RF. How many 25 year old DHs are there?”

    Off hand, not many. I guess Montero’s OF defense can’t be any worse than Dunn’s.

    But if Montero is a part-time C, would they move him to the OF to get the rest of his AB, and would he be worse than Jeter in the OF? I think the answer is probably yes.

  238. crawdaddy December 30th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    “Cashman had better be able to outtalk Jeter, then. Jeter mentioned in a late season interview that he’d have no issues about moving to another spot if it was in team interests, but, the Yankees haven’t brought it up. It was on one of the YES Network interviews.”

    You mean Hal and Cashman because this negotiation will involve ownership as they discuss the remainder of Jeter’s playing career and probably his post playing career too.

  239. Rich in NJ December 30th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    Uncle Ellsworth (Expert textpert choking smokers, don’t you think the joker laughs at you)

    I think the issue is being raised because his contract only has one more season and where he plays affects his value.

  240. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    Betsy, I meant that Romine was the best pure baseball athlete/player. Not the best hitter or fielder. He’s going to be good.

  241. Jerkface December 30th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    Jerkface, ok you’re consistent. Maybe more of the blame should be put on the manager? Jeter and hyper-competitive players (which, by the way, I think is an incredible quality) need to be protected from themselves……..If he has to sit, he has to sit. In Jeter’s case, he’s ultra-confident (AJ recently said he’s the most confident player he’s ever played with); perhaps this confidence works against him when he’s hurt. In other words, perhaps he thinks that he can overcome any injury just by effort.

    Yea I think the manager could be to blame. Torre and to a lesser extent 2008 Joe Girardi probably didn’t think they could tell Jeter to sit during slumps. I recall him getting like 1 day off in his injury related slumps and he probably ended up pinch hitting for Alberto or Pena anyways.

    Jeter to me is a guy who is receptive to management in a private situation. As long as they keep it out of the newspaper we could see him change positions. IF management is ballsy enough to request it.

  242. Uncle Ellsworth (Expert textpert choking smokers, don't you think the joker laughs at you) December 30th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    Erica when are you going to Sin City?

  243. tk December 30th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    tex’s friend
    December 30th, 2009 at 11:56 am
    I agree if we cannot score runs with a lineup 1-8 of
    Jeter
    NJ
    Tex
    Alex
    CG
    Posada
    Cano
    Swisher

    Scoring runs with that lineup shouldn’t be a problem. However, there is a real risk of injury/decline with some important parts of the lineup. Even with just an injury to NJ, we’ll frequently see a lineup with Miranda/Cervelli/Gardner in it. While a best case scenario plus Holliday may seem like overkill, just a couple of injury/regression issues can easily have us ready to trade for someone inferior to MH while sacrificing additional minor league talent. There are good arguments on both sides of this issue, but if Olney is correct “that Matt Holliday will ultimately sign for five years and $82.5-85MM, with options and/or incentives that could “dress it up as a deal that could be worth over $100MM”” it’s just too good to pass up IMO.

  244. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    “I think the issue is being raised because his contract only has one more season and where he plays affects his value.”

    But what’s the point of speculating until he plays that season? I see no reason to cross the bridge until we get to it.

  245. stuckey December 30th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    “Also Jeter had his lowest Isolated Power of his CAREER in 2008. Worse than even his rookie season. Injury completely sapped his power.”

    You’re still making the same mistake that a LOT of poster make, you’re criticizing Jeter by comparing him to himself.

    The point still is, was there a better option than Jeter. You’re obviously of the OPINION a Ramiro Pena would have provided greater overall production in times when Jeter was struggling with injury, but honestly, I think you’d have an awful hard time supporting that opinion.

  246. RS December 30th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    “They can address the problem now while the rest of the team is still young enough to win or they can wait until inevitable decline sets in with other key players.”

    The Yankees aren’t lookig for a 3 or 4 year window to win. They want the roster flexibility to always be in position to improve the team. Matt Holliday defeats that purpose because the contract he’s looking for would lock him into the team until he’s 35 or so, and then HE becomes the player with the inevitable decline. The Yankees are obviously wary about aging outfielders…look how quickly they got rid of Abreu, Damon, Sheffield, and Matsui.

  247. Jerkface December 30th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    Jeter did none of his usual bulking up last season, and continued the lateral speed training and overall conditioning he started when Girardi took over in 2008, and put up a great season offensively and defensively.

    I think he could probably play short stop for 3+ years without being terrible. And as long as the yankees lack a surefire replacement, they aren’t going to allow another player to get considerable time at the position anyways.

  248. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    FWIW, RLYB has done a CAIRO analysis of the Yankee lineup and concluded the Yanks, as currently put together, will hit LHP just as well as RHP in 2010.

    I haven’t decided if I agree with it yet, but it is food for thought. Check it out.

    http://www.replacementlevel.co.....hp_in_2010

  249. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    Pettitte also played in 2008 injured. I think that was more a product of them having no one else and struggling to produce runs.

    the stars wanted to step up to play because the team was behind.

  250. Uncle Ellsworth (Expert textpert choking smokers, don't you think the joker laughs at you) December 30th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    This will all work out fine.

    But I agree with GB
    There is no dicussion until he gets 3,000.
    He may just exhale at that point.

  251. Drive 4- 5 December 30th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    Maybe I’m jaded because I just sent them my payment for next year’s bill. But I’ll be concerned about the Yankees saving money on the day they announce they will cut the most expensive seat and concession prices in baseball by the same percentage they save. The new Stadium, resplendant with its moat, is still an ATM for the Yankees. They need a left fielder. Go get one dammit.

  252. crawdaddy December 30th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    Listening to Nick Johnson on XM Radio, he talks like he’s still sleeping.

  253. Jerkface December 30th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    You’re still making the same mistake that a LOT of poster make, you’re criticizing Jeter by comparing him to himself.

    The point still is, was there a better option than Jeter. You’re obviously of the OPINION a Ramiro Pena would have provided greater overall production in times when Jeter was struggling with injury, but honestly, I think you’d have an awful hard time supporting that opinion.

    I am not asking Jeter to be replaced for the season, but

    3 weeks of injured jeter

    vs

    1 week of pena + 2 weeks of almost healed jeter

    I take the latter. There is no way to go back and make this happen, so its just my opinion. Maybe Cash would have made a trade for a better backup SS, maybe the yankees would have considered signing a better backup SS. But no one puts Jeter in the corner so we don’t have that.

    And I think it definitely hurt the team, but not necessarily killed it, during those slumps .

  254. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    Erica – always OPPC – Bring Johnny Back!!!
    December 30th, 2009 at 11:58 am
    I am leaving for the airport in 4 hours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    ————————————————————

    Erica, stay out of Rick’s Cafe Americain. Rick is bad news. He’ll never amount to a hill of beans.

    Signed.

    Captain Louis Renault

  255. Jerkface December 30th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    When I get back from lunch I’ll look at some of his slumps, I think Pena or Alberto could have done better than some of the horrific slumps jeter was in, being that they are superior defensive players and would only have to better a slumping jeter’s offense.

  256. tex's friend December 30th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    Another thing some overlook with LF is what if one of the stars needs to move to the OF. Many say Jeter needs to move to LF in a couple years, or if Laird comes up, will alex move to RF, moving someone else to LF. Montero?

    Better to have a spot available instead of clugging the DH spot with multiple stars that decline in the field.

  257. Erica - always OPPC - Bring Johnny Back!!! December 30th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    new thread :arrow:

    will respond there!

  258. Betsy -high on pie December 30th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    GB, thanks! I’m eager to see how he does in AA this year

  259. Uncle Ellsworth (Expert textpert choking smokers, don't you think the joker laughs at you) December 30th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    Wait ?!
    they are lowering the price of Official Yankee Stadium Grass seed?

  260. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    Montero, by the way, is not 21. he just turned 20 in November.

  261. timo December 30th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    RS
    December 30th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
    Didn’t the Yankees score 960+ runs with Andy Phillips as their primary first baseman (2007)?

    _______________________________________________

    Phillips started all of 49 games in 2007 and a few of those may not have been at 1B.

  262. RS December 30th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    The problem with asking Jeter to move from shortstop is that there’s no player remotely available who can replace him, unless the Yankees can pry away Hanley Ramirez. I think if the Yankees had a stud SS who was projected to be as good as or better than Jeter (key phrase, since Nunez/Corona/etc. aren’t at that level yet), then he would have no problem moving, for the better of the team. But you can’t tell Jeter to leave the position and then sign some veteran FA to replace him.

    Just look at Posada. He’s extremely prideful and adament about being a catcher, but with Montero and Romine coming through the ranks, I think he sees the writing on the wall. It would be a lot different, though, if the Yankees told Posada to DH and then brought in Brad Ausmus to be the catcher instead of a young kid. I think it’s the same way with Jeter.

  263. DaSaint007 December 30th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    GB, glad to see that you’re doing ok today.

    Earlier you posted that ARod would be ok in RF because of his arm and speed. I think that if Swisher can play RF, chances are that ARod would probably be able to handle that. Of course, maybe not at 40 but…

  264. RS December 30th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    “Phillips started all of 49 games in 2007 and a few of those may not have been at 1B.”

    Ok, but Phillips, Mientkiewicz, Cairo, and Phelps are the only listed first basemen from that season, so it was obviously a weak spot. That was the year Giambi had a foot injury, could barely play the field, and was out for most of the year. The Yankees scored more runs that season than they did in ’09, and that was with a patchwork first base. That was the point I was trying to make.

  265. the gay Yankee fan December 30th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    Frankly speaking, Cashman made a big mistake this offseason.

    Instead of trading for Curtis Granderson, he should have signed Matt Holliday to play left and let Gardner play center.

    Essentially, they would have Holliday instead of Granderson.

    Holliday is a much better hitter than Granderson and they wouldn’t had to give up Austin Jackson and Phil Coke.

  266. stuckey December 30th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    “And I think it definitely hurt the team, but not necessarily killed it, during those slumps .”

    There are two problems with your premise. One you acknowledge – that this is just your opinion and not backed up by any statistical support. But you say you’ll give it a try so I look forward to that.

    The second is less obvious. It’s hindsight.

    Most players with the track record of Jeter have battled through injuries numerous times in their careers, and a good amount of the time fans aren’t the wiser.

    It’s easy to go back NOW and find times when a pronounced slump coincided with an injury, the TRICK is addressing it while it’s happening. No player the caliber of Jeter goes into a game convinced his slump will continue that night.

    You’re ultimately suggesting Jeter should have recognized that in these PARTICULAR cases, he couldn’t have played through it as he’s had previously, and RECOGNIZED that he was SO hampered that his production would be less than players who have had undistinguised MINOR LEAGUE careers.

    It also assumes Jeter was so adamant, that either he talked his manager out of making the move or prevented him from even broaching the subject.

    I get your simple premise, and even if you could support it (and I don’t think you can), using it to criticize Jeter is a pretty substantial stretch.

  267. Juke Early December 30th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    Give Gardner the LF job. If he “hurts” the team, bring up some kids until one sticks. The way MLB is now, Mickey Mantle not only would’ve stayed down in the minors after his weak debut, he’d have ended up on the old Wash. Nationals AL team. It just seems as if they have no confidence any of their mL-ers can catch & throw. F all the endless numbers – let ‘em play ball.

  268. GeorgeInJax December 30th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    RE:
    Juke Early
    December 30th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
    Give Gardner the LF job. If he “hurts” the team, bring up some kids until one sticks. The way MLB is now, Mickey Mantle not only would’ve stayed down in the minors after his weak debut, he’d have ended up on the old Wash. Nationals AL team. It just seems as if they have no confidence any of their mL-ers can catch & throw. F all the endless numbers – let ‘em play ball.
    ——————————————
    Good Post!
    Who was the last home-grown outfielder to stick?
    Bernie? His first 3 yrs were no better than Melky or Gardner. Whenever you deal with young talent you have to give them time to develop. We didn’t get rid of Hughes after a rough 2008 & he will likely be a star. We shouldn’t give up on Joba as a starter, and we should give Gardner a shot in LF.

  269. Patrick from CT December 30th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    the gay Yankee fan
    December 30th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
    Frankly speaking, Cashman made a big mistake this offseason.

    Instead of trading for Curtis Granderson, he should have signed Matt Holliday to play left and let Gardner play center.

    Essentially, they would have Holliday instead of Granderson.

    Holliday is a much better hitter than Granderson and they wouldn’t had to give up Austin Jackson and Phil Coke.

    ==========================================================
    You must be crazy…
    Matt Holiday is going to cost 3-4 times what Granderson is over the next 3-4 seasons. The whole Yankee OF will make less $$ than Holliday. The Yankees were not taking on another 100mil contract in 2009. The Yankees have Tex and A-Rod, they don’t need Holliday.
    Granderson is a better CF than Gardner at this point in time. Gardner was the 4th OF in 2009 and we don’t know if he will even win a 2010 starting job yet.
    Austin Jackson may or may not ever make it in the ML. Phil Coke and his 5+era is easily repaced.

  270. Daniel Boling December 30th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

    Sign nady and Wang little risk with alot of reward if Wang turns it around and can get back to form we have the best pitching staff in baseball

  271. ortforshort December 30th, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    Leave everything alone for 2010. The Yankees clearly have a better lineup than Boston this year and are on a par with Tampa. Then, here’s the 2011 lineup:
    1 – Jeter,SS – He’s a great athlete, in great shape and is a great player. Of course he’ll be resigned to a multiyear deal
    2 – Crawford,LF – This also hurts Tampa
    3 – Teixiera,IB
    4 – A-Rod,3B
    5 – Mauer,C – Once in a lifetime chance to grab a hitter of his callibre next year
    6 – Cano,2B
    7 – Posada,DH
    8 – Montero,RF – his future is in the outfield, he’s too big to catch – catching will ruin his knees and he’ll go heavy-legged at a young age
    9 – Granderson,CF – his inability to hit lefties will hurt the least out of the 9 hold

  272. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 30th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    Finally some logic from the gurus.

    Signing Holliday might have been something we entertained if we didn’t bring in Granderson and Johnson, but we did.

    He would literally be the equivalent of wasting $85-100 million.

  273. the gay Yankee fan December 30th, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    Patrick from CT –

    Using your reasoning, Granderson costs 10X more than Gardner. A case can be made that Gardner hits for a higher average, is a better base stealer, plays a better centerfield and doesn’t strike out as much.

    They don’t need Granderson since Gardner gives them the same player except for the homeruns. That can be more than made up for by Matt Holliday.

    In other words…

    Matt Holliday + Gardner >>> Granderson + Gardner.

  274. the gay Yankee fan December 30th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    Oh and I forgot one more thing.

    Phil Coke’s ERA was not 5+. Check your stats.

    He was a important lefthanded component of the bullpen last year. Kid had a lot heart and toughness, something that cannot be that “easily replaced.” Came in many tough spots and got outs. He was one of the reasons why the bullpen was solid.

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