How much do you need from LF?
Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Jan 02, 2010 
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Obviously left field is the one glaring hole the Yankees have remaining, but how important is it that they fill it with anything close to a premium player? I’ve had several readers e-mail me pointing out that the Yankees got very little (relatively) from their left fielders during the dynasty championship years, so I decided to take a look at the numbers.
• In 1996, the Yankees left fielders hit a combined .265 with 25 HR, 98 RBI and a .789 OPS. Gerald Williams (42 starts), Tim Raines (47), Ruben Sierra (35) and Darryl Strawberry (25) were the primary players.
• In 1998, the Yankees left fielders hit a combined .263 with 15 HR, 74 RBI and a .760 OPS. Those numbers came primarily from Chad Curtis and Raines.
• In 1999, the Yankees left fielders hit a combined .234 with 19 HR, 63 RBI and a .710 OPS. That was mostly from the trio of Curtis, Rickey Ledee and Shane Spencer.
• And in 2000, the Yankees left fielders hit a combined .276 with 30 HR, 97 RBI and a .839 OPS, though it’s worth noting that much of that pop came from David Justice, who was a mid-season trade acquisition (Ledee and Spencer were the primary guys before that).
In other words, the Yankees have been here before. With an otherwise stacked lineup, the identity of the Opening Day left fielder may not be that important. We can – and will – debate about Brett Gardner or Reed Johnson or anyone else that may pop up, but in all likelihood that person won’t be what turns the Yankees season. The moves that matter most have probably already been made.
Nady if he’s healthy please.
Crawford in 2011.
Each of those outfields produced some level of power. Garnder will provide none, and Hoffmann is a complete mystery. I do note Hoffmann’s winter league stats are not good. Clearly, Gardner is speedster the 90s outfield no longer had with Raines in is later years. I prefer a player that can hit 15-20 homer runs personally, but their are different paths to choose.
The bottom line is that the Yankee offense has gotten weaker this offseason. Granderson/Johnson for Damon/Matsui is a downgrade. Not a huge downgrade, but a downgrade. Yanks can live with this situation, but I’d like to see a better option in left than Gardner.
the notion that the yankees NEED power from left field is silly…they will be getting 30 homeruns from centerfield..if gardner is your leftfielder, power will not be found but extreme speed and above average (possibly higher) defense will be present…
we can speculate all we wan’t wether we need a lf upgrade & who it should & might be but the reality is we don’t know
if our pitching is good enough it takes a lot of pressure off of having to upgrade elsewhere
if gardner is the opening day lf cashman will wait & see what he gets from him & make a decision in time
just like he has done in the past with every position
a trade will be made or someone from the minors will get a shot or a free agent
if gardner is batting .285 with a .370 obp & decent production he might make it
if in time he is batting .250 with a .300 obp bye bye
You never intentionally punt on a position. You just don’t do it. If you’re incredibly lucky, you’re the late-90s Yankees and you survive. Most of the time, you just hurt yourself. The fact that the Yanks got relatively little from LF in their championship years doesn’t make it a good strategy.
I’m not saying they should break their budget on Holliday (they shouldn’t) or Damon (they shouldn’t) or even that going into the season with Gardner in LF is necessarily a bad idea. But any time you think “our other seven starters are good enough that we can carry a spot,” you’re making a mistake.
Because sometimes Alex Rodriguez has a hip injury or Jorge Posada has a throwing injury or Derek Jeter slams his shoulder into Ken Huckaby and suddenly you’ve got Cody Ransom, Jose Molina or, God help you, Enrique Wilson in your lineup. I’m not at all sure eight hitters can carry a ninth. I doubt seven can carry two.
That’s like a 22 HR and 80 RBI average.
Not exactly chicken feed.
“The bottom line is that the Yankee offense has gotten weaker this offseason. Granderson/Johnson for Damon/Matsui is a downgrade. Not a huge downgrade, but a downgrade.”
i just cant see how this is true….
damon+matsui= 5.4 WAR is 2009
granderson+johnson=5.8 War in 2009
and this is with granderson having had a down (by his standards) year..
if you factor in regression/possible improvement of the players along with the age difference, its a no brainer the yankees improved…
“if gardner is batting .285 with a .370 obp & decent production he might make it”
id gardner can do that, which i admit is unlikely, he could be an allstar if you factor in defense and the crazy amount of stolen bases he would get…this production is unlikely though
I am more of a lurker than contributor….But, here’s my thought:
I think Gardner as a speed-guy becomes more valuable as a bench player where you can dictate WHEN he enters/effects the game.
While it may be true that we don’t NEED a strong contribution from LF, what you are looking at now is a lineup that gives no mercy to the opposing pitcher. Adding a solid contributor (still holding hope for Damon) at that LF position, somebody in the 375 OBP range with some power. (read Johnny DAMON) would make the lineup relentless.
With that type of output from LF, you are looking at a lineup that: will be close to 300 up and down it. With 25+ HR power from every spot (slight stretch for Jeter, but possible). SB Speed (Jeter, Granderson, Damon, ARod). High OBP guys (Swish, Jeter, ARod, Nick, Tex). Takes a lot of pitches (Jeter, Tex, Swish, ARod, Nick, Damon).
Its an offense that would be scary in every way.
Just hoping.
“25+ HR power from every spot (slight stretch for Jeter, but possible)”
Jeter’s never hit 25 in his career. I’d be willing to bet he won’t start doing so at age 36.
You cannot compare 2009 to 1996-2000 since 2009 baseball teams are MUCH stronger than the adversaries of the Yankees in the dynasty years.
2010* instead of 2009
Sam you tried to show that from 1996-200 the YANKEES platooned the LF with a host of players, and won 4 WS championships in a 5 yr span. Some get it, others think the Yankees are doomed if this one player isn’t on the team. You just have to let them stay stuck in stupid!
Yankees never said they didn’t want Damon back, never went to the papers and sent coded messages to him, never treated him with anything but respect.
Damon was misinformed by his representation, Boras and the process was/is dragged out too long. No way Cashman allows this team to revolve around any one player, especially a player that’s showing he’s in it for the money, or not in it at all.
Aw, there’s no need to worry about left field now. The Yankees will pick up a very good leftfielder at the trade deadline. Can you imagine the Dodgers getting off to a bad start and wanting to dump a half-year of Manny’s salary on someone? Hee hee, we could trade ‘em Jamie Hoffman for Manny at the end of July. Wouldn’t that be interesting?
One issue which I think is being overlooked regarding the “need” for an improvement in left field is run differential. Yes, the Yanks can spend more money if they choose and upgrade at left field. Gardner improves the defense over Damon in terms of range (not so much in arm strength), and he will provide much more speed. The lost power will be made up with Granderson in center, and I’d bet Nick Johnson hits around 20 with the benefit of the short porch. Basically, I’d be surprised if the Yankees score less than 900 runs next year.
What wins games, however, is not how many runs you score, but how many more runs you score than the other team. Javy Vasquez improves the back of our rotation markedly, and with an improved outfield without a huge drop in offensive production, the run differential is sure to increase in our favor barring a Mets-esque string of injuries. If you look at it this way, it’s easy to understand the Yank’s logic.
That said, I wouldn’t be upset if they went out and spent a lot of money. They won the series, bringing them tons of funds, and one thing is for certain: they aren’t going to pass on their savings to us. No matter if it’s Holliday, Damon, Garnder, or someone from AAA, beers will still be $10 at the stadium and a family of four will still have trouble going to a game.
“Can you imagine the Dodgers getting off to a bad start and wanting to dump a half-year of Manny’s salary on someone? Hee hee, we could trade ‘em Jamie Hoffman for Manny at the end of July. Wouldn’t that be interesting?”
Even with an improved San Francisco, I doubt if the Dodgers get off to that poor a start in their division. That said, the McCourt divorce is a wild card; who knows what they’ll do.
Happy New Year, LoHud Yankees Blog!
I don’t believe in the “we did it before” argument.
But there’s no one that’s fit the bill at the price we want. The budget’s just an excuse imo. They’re not ponying up because they’re holding out for someone better or can give better value than the options that have presented themselves thus far.
I’m fine with Gardner in LF (prefer him in CF, but that Grande guy is blocking him, lol.)
Wouldn’t be surprised to see Damon back, though. Just can’t see what other team sign him.
Damon gave us 4 good years, and I kind of want to leave it at that. He slipped some in the last season, and I don’t know how that will magically reverse itself.
I will say, though, that I remember Johnny’s big hits more than rally killers that people are writing about. He seemed to come through when we needed a lift.
Why didn’t the Yanks offer arbitration to Damon. They’d either get him for a one-year deal (which would be fine), or they’d get a draft pick. Seems like Cashman made a mistake here, no?
Msnny, is a team spirit killer, nothing without his roids,not clean shaven, a headcase. Real Yankees don’t wear braids!
I told friends (Dodger fans) that when he came back from the 50 games,their team would hit a brick wall, because it has to be the Manny show,or no show at all. He almost from his non-production cost them the Dodgers division. Playing the Phillies he had nothing in the tank, nada!
I think that some over-rating of Matsui/Damon is going on because the Yankees won a championship in 2009. Just a little.
Anyway, I’m not overly comfortable with Gardner in left for a couple of reasons, but even with that, if that’s the worst case scenario – a Gardner/? platoon – with everything else the Yankees have going for them, it might not turn out so badly.
There’s plenty of time to upgrade if necessary.
And yes, I understand that everyone is a year older.
So is every other player on every other roster.
hideki balboni, Cashman didn’t offer Damon arbitration because he was afraid Damon would accept. Arbitration requires a raise, and there was no way the Yanks wanted to spend upwards of 15 million on an aging LF/DH.
Even with an improved San Francisco, I doubt if the Dodgers get off to that poor a start in their division. That said, the McCourt divorce is a wild card; who knows what they’ll do.
——————————————————
Yeah, its hard to believe that the Dodgers would struggle that much that early in the season. Additionally, I don’t know how much Manny has left in the tank. Nonetheless, some teams are going to get off to a bad start and are going to want to dump salaries. the Yankees need only look for a player who is in his last year of contract and who could help out in left field. As far as the add-on to the payroll, I would think the Yankees would be willing to take on a big contract if its truly in the last year and if the original team will pick up some of it.
we had a relentless lineup & melky was in it for a few years
i seriously doubt melky is much better than gardner if at all & gardner plays a better d & is much better on the bases
lf might have taken a hit but we got better in cf & we have vasquez now
pitching & a few players with some powere,defense is all we need
our obp,slg,ops got better with johnson & granderson,we got younger,better defensively at half the cost of damons & matsuis salary
m -
Happy New Year!
I’ve been skimming only the last couple of weeks. Have people been talking about Damon’s rally-killers? Whew. Every single player on the team has their share of rally killers. That’s just not a fair statement. Damon had a really bad September, but other than that, he did what Damon does.
They could do worse than re-signing him. (Perhaps they could do better, but it doesn’t look like a Yankees payday for Holliday – who I’m not 100% sold on anyway.) I expect Johnny will get a slightly better offer elsewhere, though. (Or maybe I’m just preparing myself for that outcome.)
It’s going to be a little strange as it is not having Matsui in the lineup, or Cabrera, for that matter. And no Bruney and Coke. Argue all you want to about their relative effectiveness, they each played a big role last season.
Msnny, is a team spirit killer, nothing without his roids,not clean shaven, a headcase. Real Yankees don’t wear braids!
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Wahtsa’ matter…dontcha think Joe Girardi would look good in dreadlocks? How ’bout Brett Gardner?
Arbitration does not require a raise, but given that Damon is coming off the greatest offensive year of his career, he would certainly have received one.
I don’t agree with the idea that you want to put a schlock at any position. Fill it with someone who can play. Personally, I’d target Carl Crawford for left field for years to come when he becomes a free agent next year. OPS guys don’t like him, but I don’t have a whole lot of respect for people who only evaluate based on OPS. This guy can run and play D and he’s a hard nosed player who wants to win. Actually, he and a young Damon (before Damon blew out his arm) have a lot in common. I like Damon, but he’s old and can’t throw. You could do worse than sign him for a couple of years at a reasonable amount. You can’t have enough winning ballplayers around with a lot of skills. Anyone who thinks Nick Johnson in any way replaces Damon, doesn’t know baseball (see Brian Cashman).
Michael, you’re right about arbitration. I meant Damon would have required a raise, but in a case like CMW, there can be a cut. I believe it cannot be more than 20% in either direction, but I may be wrong.
2009 wasn’t even Damon’s best season as a Yankee, much less the best season of his career.
m, you’re back from the Orient Holliday ???? My take is that with this lineup, the Yanks can get by with a very good glove in left ( who or platoon) hits in the .280 neighborhood…..The real issue that just gets lost is the # 5 stick behind Alex…..I still think that when camp breaks in April, Curtis Granderson will be hitting in the 2 hole…..
And don’t forget Damon had a near career year…
Ralphie Wrote:
“The bottom line is that the Yankee offense has gotten weaker this offseason. Granderson/Johnson for Damon/Matsui is a downgrade. Not a huge downgrade, but a downgrade.”
i just cant see how this is true….
damon+matsui= 5.4 WAR is 2009
granderson+johnson=5.8 War in 2009
and this is with granderson having had a down (by his standards) year..
The Yankee teams of the late 90′s is a bygone era. The teams are different as well as the managerial styles of Torre and Girardi.
And yes Sam. The moves that matter most have already been made.
There’s some moves that spring training will have to shake out. This year more than recent years will see unsigned players signed by some teams after they’ve made the 2nd round of roster cuts. Those players will be staying in shape and waiting for a call by some teams that can fit them in.
Doreen & Pat m,
HNY to the both of you!
We’re very good, not great. But our pitching is going to be swell imo.
Run prevention with a very good offense? I’d sign up for that any day.
If a good option presents itself, then it’s not like we have a big contract blocking the move.
Cashman will sign/trade for a left fielder to platoon with Gardner. Gardner does not look like an every day player.
Brett Gardner and Reed Johnson would be an excellent platoon. Then when you want to you could also platoon Johnson with Grandy. The dude crushes lefties.
can we have this lineup
jeter
granderson
johnson
arod
tex
posada
cano
swisher
gardner
Marcus Thames would be a very good righthanded stick option
The guy to go after is David DeJesus in Kansas City. Three reasons:
1. Kansas City wants to cut payroll, and DeJesus is owed $3.6 million and $4.7 million in the next two years. He could be had for a couple of prospects, but would not command TOP prospects.
2. Those same salary numbers are big for KC, but are more than reasonable for the Yanks.
3. Average to slightly above average hitter, but fantastic fielder. Only one error in the last two years, and 13 outfield assists in 2009.
Go get him, Cash!
bru-Nah, I like the high OBP of Johnson in front of Tex and A-Rod.
Jeter
Johnson
Tex
A-Rod
Posada
Cano
Grandy
Swishy
Gardner
Game 2 of the ALCS is on MLB network…..AJ looking good. & Mark Texeria’s glove is more than just Gold…….
Z-man:
Actually DeJesus’ 2009 UZR was -0.6. A bit below average.
Gardner’s 09′ UZR: 7.2. Well above average.
Gardner is a better fielder, although DeJesus does have a better arm. Still, Gardner gets to more balls, so I’d still take Gardner.
Gardner isn’t a every day player..if they are going to platoon him then that gets it down to a right handed batter….how about trying to catch lightning with Rocco Baldelli, for sure the talent is there
Wait till we do it all over again
January 2nd, 2010 at 5:59 pm
bru-Nah, I like the high OBP of Johnson in front of Tex and A-Rod.
Jeter
Johnson
Tex
A-Rod
Posada
Cano
Grandy
Swishy
Gardner
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i am not a big fan of cg batting that high either
i agree
Happy New Year Pat!
this is where i have a problem with uzr
gardner over dejesus??
i would rather have dejesus for his bat unless gardner can come close to his offensive production
we won the ws with damon in lf who looked lost & melky in cf who is not much above average
don’t forget swisher in rf
now we have gardner,granderson,swisher
we might be pleasantly surprised
You have a problem with UZR because you disagree with what it’s telling you.
It’s objective analysis. All of our analysis is biased because we see Yankees play far more than any other teams.
Melky is a little above average in CF. Swisher is a little above average in RF. Damon is awful in LF.
I never said Gardy was a better overall player than DeJesus, I said he was better defensively.
Pat M.
January 2nd, 2010 at 6:02 pm
Game 2 of the ALCS is on MLB network…..AJ looking good. & Mark Texeria’s glove is more than just Gold…….
************
Ooooh…thanks for the heads up! I’m in desperate need of some Yankee games.
bru, I think you’re confusing UZR with WAR.
Doreen, Bruney was awful last year – the only big role he played was for the opposition. Coke? I’m glad he’s gone – he’s just not that good.
bru….Am I the only person here at The LoHud who has concerns about the leadfooted Johnson hitting in the 2 hole ???? I brought this up before, he’s not going to take 2 bases on singles….That means 1st to 3rd, and more importantly 2nd to home….Also, he’s going to get lifted late in the games for a pinch runner which will have a ripple effect to the lineup…..He’s going to find himself down in the order by the time camp breaks…..Granderson will change his approach to hitting vs. lefties by then…..
I mean Bruney was awful this year
Pat-Totally disagree. If Matsui and Posada can go from second to home on singles (and they could) Johnson can.
Bronx Born, Happy New Year my man…..How’s things at Arthur Ave ??? Can’t wait until spring so I can go there and Vincents Clam Bar on Mott & Hester…….
The Yankees didn’t offer Damon arbitration because he would have been well overpaid if he had accepted. I didn’t think that at the time, but Cashman obviously can read the market. If he had gotten $13m it may have been as much as he may get on a two year deal. Yes, a one year contract would have been nice, but at nearly twice his realized market value, it would have been dumb.
Pat M, unless you watch NJ every day, I’m not sure why you think he’s THAT slow. I posted this before, but my brother lives in Florida and he obviously watches Marlins games. I asked for his opinion and he said NJ is fine going 1st to 3rd or scoring from 2nd.
I hope everyone had a happy and safe New Year’s Eve.
I think we can all agree with Sam that we don’t need a top flight offensive producer for LF (most likely whomever settles there would bat in the 8 or 9 spot in the lineup). But having said that I think it would be a mistake to simply hand the job to a player that has yet to prove he can produce at the major league level.
Rob Neyer was asked recently if the Yankees could win with Brett Gardner playing everyday and said he thinks that they can because they won with Gardner and Melky splitting time last year so why not? And my argument would be that while Melky was certainly not a star player, Gardner has a long way to go before he’s even at Melky’s level.
If it were me, I would at least bring in a major league veteran to give the Yankees a viable alternative, and I don’t consider Reed Johnson that type of guy.
I know there are folks who don’t like hearing it, but I would bring in Ryan Church on a low cost 1 or 2 year deal, if Gardner still can’t hit major league pitching then you move Swisher to LF, play Church in RF and use either Gardner or Hoffmann as a defensive replacement.
In any case, I would still bring in a major league veteran OF simply as insurance, (maybe Scotty Pods or Corey Patterson on minor league contracts) should someone get hurt at the ML level.
How come no one points this out comparing the 90s teams – They had Paul O’Neill who was a batting champion, decent power, RBIs (your 5 hitter) so LF didn’t need as much production – now we have Nick Swisher who is arguably not an every day player in RF (if anything a 3rd outfielder) – I’ll say Granderson vs. Bernie is a pretty even offense trade off though
Hey Pat, cannot wait till I get back up there, but will wait for spring thaw.
I did find a great Italian Deli, here in Clearwater, well in Largo, called Cesarina. Sitting in there, you would thinkyou are back home. They bake their own breads and make their own Mozzarella. Incredible yums!
Betsy-Bruny was not great, but he was certainly not terrible. His ERA was 3.92 in 44 games and 39 innings pitched. He had a K/9 of 8.3. In the playoffs he was bad though(ugly ERA of 54.00) but in only .1 IP. Hardly a good indicator of his value to the team.
http://www.baseball-reference......br01.shtml
Someone will be aquired. It won’t be Holliday, probably not
Damon, but we’re not starting the season with Gardner as our starting LF.
Wait till we do it all over again January 2nd, 2010 at 6:03 pm
Z-man:
Actually DeJesus’ 2009 UZR was -0.6. A bit below average.
Gardner’s 09? UZR: 7.2. Well above average.
Gardner is a better fielder, although DeJesus does have a better arm. Still, Gardner gets to more balls, so I’d still take Gardner.
—
LOL, that’s CF numbers for DeJesus, where he played *3* games in 2009.
Look at LF:
http://www.fangraphs.com/leade.....38;month=0
Z-MAN-
This is the correct DeJesus contract:
5 years/$13.8M (2006-2010), plus 2011 club option
5 years/$13.8M (2006-10), plus 2011 club option
signed extension with Kansas City 3/06
06:$0.5M, 07:$2M, 08:$2.5M, 09:$3.6M, 10:$4.7M, 11:$6M club option ($0.5M buyout)
if DeJesus does not qualify for arbitration as a Super 2 after 2006, the contract value is reduced to $11.95M (06:$0.5M, 07:$0.6M, 08:$2.3M, 09:$3.45M, 10:$4.6M, 11:$6M / $0.5M buyout)
IMHO, offensively Damon would offer the most. If he had only agreed to 14M for the 2 years at DH.
There are still some relatively cheap right-handed options for FA, without giving up more prospects[Royals would want one of our catchers].
There’s:
Jonny Gomes
Rocco Baldelli
Marcus Thames
Jeff –
When comparing this team to the 90′s teams you’re getting a ton more offensive production from 3b (Alex vs. Brosius/Boggs) and 2b (Cano vs. Knoblauch) – so the fact that Swisher isn’t as good as Paulie is kind of acceptable.
Again, my problem is that comparing Gardner to Chad Curtis, Darryl and Rock Raines is that Gardner has yet to prove he’s even on their level yet. And it isn’t like Brett is some young prospect – he’s 26. To me he is best served playing the role of Homer Bush, coming in for defense and as a pinch runner. If he proves to be more than that – great, but handing him the starting job is, in my mind, premature.
Here’s a decent site to save. Some pretty good information including down and dirty on free agency, rule 5 and other confusing roster rules. Poke around and check it out.
http://baseball.about.com/od/m.....primer.htm
Something that I’ve wondered about is why Doug Glanville isn’t writing or providing intelligent analysis for MLB or somebody. Even better…why isn’t he in somebody’s front office. A good player and a smart guy.
Steveoh-Thank you, you are right. I messed up.
However Gardner in LF may not be far nehind, since LF is easier to defend.
But you are right. DeJesus is an excellent LF defender. My bad.
I just don’t understand why so many people want to platoon Gardner. He’s a terrific weopon off the bench but a weak bat. Get Reed Johnson or similar and play him full time in left. Hoffman is there to platoon with Granderson when needed. By summer they can decide if they need to keep him there. If Crawford or Werth become available early they can make the move and then decide which to send down based on what they see. a lot of flexibility for little money. Damon just doesn’t fit well any more and keeping him because he’s a nice guy isn’t good business.
Bronx Born, not stringy and tough I hope …..Wait…. Matsui & Posada were held up more than they were waved in & they didn’t hit 2nd….Betsy, I guess we’ll wait until spring when they start running sprints, Nick Johnson is on the lower end of average speed……CB & I went over this earlier about how getting Nick to second isn’t going to be the easiest of tasks…..Ideally, your # 2 hitter is a guy with wheels…Just look how ann All-Star team lineup is set up…These are the best players, and I can gaurantee you that the guy who hits 2nd is a guy who can run…..Someone who in the late innings especially, can score on base hit single
Pat -
For the Yankees, Johnson serves a perfect role as the team’s #2 hitter.
He gets on base 40% of the time and sees a ton of pitches both of which will benefit Tex and Alex.
“Something that I’ve wondered about is why Doug Glanville isn’t writing or providing intelligent analysis for MLB or somebody. Even better…why isn’t he in somebody’s front office. A good player and a smart guy.”
GB7
The best part about Glanville is he despises Curt Schilling, as the 2 of them had a rocky relationship as teammates!!!
Anybody that dislikes Curt has to be a good guy!
Erin
If you do not have the Yanks 2009 DVD set, the World Series games are on MLBN beginning at 5 a.m. tomorrow.
Pat, really tasty stuff. Nothing like homemade..
Gardner isn’t a every day player,he’s decent at what he does, pinch run play some D. I think if he’s used as a every day player he will struggle like Cody did. If you want to use him in some kind of platoon with a right handed hitter fine
What is with the mentions of Sarnataro? Is it some kind of joke I am unaware of?
Rob Neyer was asked recently if the Yankees could win with Brett Gardner playing everyday and said he thinks that they can because they won with Gardner and Melky splitting time last year so why not?
And my argument would be that while Melky was certainly not a star player, Gardner has a long way to go before he’s even at Melky’s level.
=======
Your argument will never make an impact for people who can’t differentiate between a player who actually knows how to hit and one who does not.
It’s routinely assumed by some on here that Gardner = Melky + speed.
That premise: “Gardner will be as good as Melky offensively because he will match his hitting and he’ll also be able to steal bases.”
Is made by people who apparently can’t tell the difference between the two at the plate.
There is no real way to explain something that is so fundamentally lacking in the way the game is viewed.
The quoting of Gardner stats is just ridiculous. The man has no clue.
Wait till we do it all over again
January 2nd, 2010 at 6:14 pm
You have a problem with UZR because you disagree with what it’s telling you.
It’s objective analysis. All of our analysis is biased because we see Yankees play far more than any other teams.
—————————————————
i did not say i disagree
i have a problem with it because no way i sit hanley ramirez for julio lugo because lugo has a better uzr
hanley ramirez usually has bad uzr rankings but name me 1 other ss you would rather have over him
all i am saying is you should not just say gardner had or is projected to have a better uzr so he is a better choice over damon or anybody else
offense,salary,etc needs to be considered
we won the ws with damons -12.1 uzr in 2009
damon is projected at 2.2 war
dejesus 3.7
gardner 2.4
Alright Chip, Does he score 100 runs this season ???? I have money that says he will not
joeman
January 2nd, 2010 at 6:49 pm
Gardner isn’t a every day player,he’s decent at what he does, pinch run play some D. I think if he’s used as a every day player he will struggle like Cody did. If you want to use him in some kind of platoon with a right handed hitter fine.
=======
Well if Cashman is as beguiled by Gardner as many here seem to be, he’ll have to learn the hard way, for it will become self-evident if Gardner actually plays every day that the man can’t hit.
On the other hand, if the Yankees accept that he can’t hit, and vigorously teach him how to bunt his way on, that would be a bonus.
He’s a genuine weapon off the bench as a pinch runner – a cipher if relied upon to get himself to first base.
well, by this “logic”, center field is a problem. by grabbing some random Yankee championship seasons:
1956 – Mickey Mantle: .464 /.705/1.169
1939 Joe Dimaggio: .448/.671/1.119
1998 Bernie Williams: .422/.575/.997
1999 Bernie Williams: .435/.536/.971
Clearly, this proves the Yankees must improve on Granderson.
bru-I never said Gardner should be sat for Damon or anybody else. All I said was he had a better UZR than DeJesus. That’s it. DeJesus over a full season is (probably) better.
what gets me about Gardner & with all his speed is that the guy never walks ..must be the the pitchers throw strikes to him because they know he can hit
http://www.fangraphs.com/leade.....38;month=0
in 2009 they have scutaro at 4.5 war & valued at 20.2 million & arod at 4.4 war & valued at 20 million
Gardy had 2 .900+ OPS months in a row before he broke his thumb. He’s a slow starter but when he gets going, he’s good and provides outstanding D.
It’s not just Gardner in LF. It’s Swisher in right and Granderson in CF.
A decent left hander will dominate the three of them. Taking away Matsui and Damon makes the team a lot more vulnerable to lefties IMO.
joeman
January 2nd, 2010 at 7:04 pm
what gets me about Gardner & with all his speed is that the guy never walks ..must be the the pitchers throw strikes to him because they know he can hit
=====
He is not going to walk a lot.
He is not patient – another false assumption by his devotees who love to quote the .354 OBP from last season.
He’s passive.
Patient hitters understand the strike zone and wait for their pitch.
This guy is not, by any wild stretch of the imagination, in charge at the plate on any level. All it takes is watching him. He goes up there, praying that he’ll be walked.
George…Curtis Granderson is going to make a quantum leap as a ballplayer in 2010…..Just wait until the All-Star break and I’m certain you and all the other folks here who are down on him will be whistling a far different tune….He can flat out play, and the hitting vs. lefties will be a thing of the past….And he will be hitting 2nd, as he slugs 35 homers
bru-Well obviously it’s because A-Rod missed a month of the season.
Phil the Thrill
January 2nd, 2010 at 7:09 pm
Gardy had 2 .900+ OPS months in a row before he broke his thumb. He’s a slow starter but when he gets going, he’s good and provides outstanding D.
====
And to this I would say, with all due respect to your powers of observation – see Gardner at the plate is to know him at the plate.
Another way of saying this would be that you cannot sell him as a hitter to anyone who knows hitting and has actually watched him on a regular basis.
A spade is a spade.
TO see him is to know him…
David DeJesus bio :
http://kansascity.royals.mlb.c....._id=430203
But if he puts up results, he puts up results. You can’t just disregard 2 months of a 900+ OPS.
I’m not arguing either way for Gardner but come on, you can’t just throw two months of hot hitting out the window.
check out this cc sabathia car commerical its pretty funny http://www.toyotavallejo.com/commercials.html
Bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes January 2nd, 2010 at 7:11 pm
joeman
January 2nd, 2010 at 7:04 pm
what gets me about Gardner & with all his speed is that the guy never walks ..must be the the pitchers throw strikes to him because they know he can hit
=====
He is not going to walk a lot.
He is not patient – another false assumption by his devotees who love to quote the .354 OBP from last season.
He’s passive.
Patient hitters understand the strike zone and wait for their pitch.
This guy is not, by any wild stretch of the imagination, in charge at the plate on any level. All it takes is watching him. He goes up there, praying that he’ll be walked.
————————————————
and I thought I had a dislike for him as a offensive player
Wait till we do it all over again
January 2nd, 2010 at 6:17 pm
bru, I think you’re confusing UZR with WAR.
————————————————————
no i’m not
i understand that uzr says gardner is better in lf than damon
Wait till we do it all over again
January 2nd, 2010 at 6:03 pm
Z-man:
Actually DeJesus’ 2009 UZR was -0.6. A bit below average.
Gardner’s 09? UZR: 7.2. Well above average.
Gardner is a better fielder, although DeJesus does have a better arm. Still, Gardner gets to more balls, so I’d still take Gardner
this is why i commented
did you mean you would rather have gardner playing lf over dejesus??
if not forget the whole debate
bru-No, you misunderstood. I meant fielding only I’d take Gardner. He is not a better player than Damon or (probably) DeJesus.
Gardner is a multidimensional player who will have an impact on the team well in excess of his average. He wears out pitchers at the plate and on the bases. He will open the hole and get a lot of fastballs for Jeter. He will have lots of chances to steal when Johnson is at the plate. None of the realistic options mentioned by anyone are significantly better than Gardner, even Damon. I don’t think that the Yankess wanted Damon back at any price. I hope that the Yankees give Garder a chance to prove himself this year. If not Hoffman, there will be a dark horse right handed hitter coming out of spring training.
Gardner is good at what he does best, pinch run & play decent D….I think out of his total 64 hits he had last year 17 of those hits game in 5 games
Pat M.
January 2nd, 2010 at 7:12 pm
George…Curtis Granderson is going to make a quantum leap as a ballplayer in 2010…..Just wait until the All-Star break and I’m certain you and all the other folks here who are down on him will be whistling a far different tune….He can flat out play, and the hitting vs. lefties will be a thing of the past….And he will be hitting 2nd, as he slugs 35 homers
————————————————————
Happy holidays, Pat M. Hope all is going well after losing your shirt on the games.
Have a question about the Cabreta to Atlanta trade. Not sure if you have any inside connections to the thought process of the Yanks. Is it possible that with the rumors of the parting of Cabrera and Cano that Cashman felt it was worth taking an offensive hit in left to break up the pair, feeling that Cabrera might be a bad influence in the overall development of Cano, going forwatd. It just smacks a little of the Mantle/Martin relationship when they moved Billy Martin out the the Kansas City farm team in 1957.
if i understand it correctly even if gardner has a better uzr we are a better team with dejesus in lf over gardner & damon because his war is higher than both & gardners war is projected better than damons in 2010
so according to the 2010 war projections it is in this order
dejesus
gardner
damon
this is probably why cash does not wan’t damon back when gardner can do it for league minimum with a better uzr & war
and I thought I had a dislike for him as a offensive player
====
joeman,
I am not encouraged by what I’ve seen from him as a hitter.
Happy holidays, Pat M. Hope all is going well after losing your shirt on the games.
Have a question about the Cabreta to Atlanta trade. Not sure if you have any inside connections to the thought process of the Yanks. Is it possible that with the rumors of the parting of Cabrera and Cano that Cashman felt it was worth taking an offensive hit in left to break up the pair, feeling that Cabrera might be a bad influence in the overall development of Cano, going forwatd. It just smacks a little of the Mantle/Martin relationship when they moved Billy Martin out the the Kansas City farm team in 1957.
—————————————
Melky & Cano go out drinking together ?
I am going to set up a shrine to Melky. More verbiage about a average OF than I’ve ever seen before. Yes he has talent, but he coasts. There was a reason he was sent back to AAA. When challenged he got better but then fell back into old habits again. His best year was his first.
Gardner has no arm.
Fangraphs Gardner arm rated at 3.0, Melky at -0.9, Damon at -4.2. Melky has an above average arm but it’s to whom it may concern. Gardner’s arm is weaker but he has a quick release and it’s accurate. Melky takes a few steps to throw. This is not something that should be pointed out and the numbers back it up.
Gardner can’t hit.
He was sitting on a 900 OPS at the end of June. The League pitching adjusted and he broke his thumb. Will he adjust to the adjustment? Too soon to tell. Basic baseball.
Gardner takes bad routes
As pointed out by Newman, Minor Leaguers all have the same problem with the three tier stadiums, it’s hard to pick up the ball off the bat because of the background until you adjust to it. CF is a difficult position to play.
You’re comparing a four year veteran to a rookie and then doing predictions. You people should do well at lotteries.
Correction:
the rumors of the ***partying*** of Cabrera and Cano that Cashman felt it was worth taking an offensive hit in left to break up the pair
Wait till we do it all over again
January 2nd, 2010 at 7:22 pm
bru-No, you misunderstood. I meant fielding only I’d take Gardner. He is not a better player than Damon or (probably) DeJesus.
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oh ok i got it now
sorry
i would think war trumps all regardless of uzr
the projected war has dejesus winning us more games than gardner & damon
it also projects gardner with a higher war over damon but very close
2.2-2.4 i believe
hanley usually has very bad uzr rankings but very high war rankings
He wears out pitchers at the plate
======
Brett Gardner wears out pitchers at the plate???
GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2010 at 7:28 pm
Correction:
the rumors of the ***partying*** of Cabrera and Cano that Cashman felt it was worth taking an offensive hit in left to break up the pair————————
——————————-
I must say interesting thought
Gardy was a slow starter and strong finisher at every level. I have a little more faith in him than Bhodi does. I tried hitting after a thumb injury back on the day and it was very difficult.
Good Evening GB. Trust the new year is treating you well
Bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes January 2nd, 2010 at 7:29 pm
He wears out pitchers at the plate
======
Brett Gardner wears out pitchers at the plate???
———————————————
the total of 4 he takes every time up
Really, this precludes serious debate.
Watch the games.
Bodhi-Look at the stats.
Remember, the stats are just events reduced to numbers. It’s just a way for people to write down what’s happening in the games.
I think he meant that Gardner wears pitchers’ out pitches.
Evening, Bronx. Thanks for asking. Hope your holidays were kind to you. Doing fine, but, I’m of the opinion that fingernail biting is more addictive and hazardous to one’s health than smoking. I’ve chewed them up to my elbows.
johnson scored 100 runs in 2006 in washingtons lineup in only 500 ab
i am not worried about him in the 2 hole
it is our # 5 hitter i am worried about because that affects arods production
johnson is an on base machine
3rd in the league after pujols & mauer
Phil the Thrill
January 2nd, 2010 at 7:30 pm
Gardy was a slow starter and strong finisher at every level. I have a little more faith in him than Bhodi does. I tried hitting after a thumb injury back on the day and it was very difficult.
====
Well, we agree there: that’s exactly what you appear to have – “faith.”
And you are right, I don’t have “faith” that Brett Gardner is going to make some mystical adjustment and be able to get on base enough to make him worth an every day turn in the outfield.
Yikes GB. I hear ya.. just make sure no one puts nail polish on ya as a deterrent (thinkin of Nurse Karloff).
GB, Thanks Man…I’ve been wanting to ask you, have you enduldged in Coors ( non-leaded ) and Pizza ??? I commend you on the smokes…..As soon as that trade came down ( Melky ) I too thought of the Mantle / Martin situation….Honestly, when Melky was sent down in late 08, and then lost his job in 09, I thought about # 1 & # 7 even then…..There could be some merit to this theory, as you’d hera little whispers from different credible writers, even in the tv & radio both about their ( Cano / Melky )escapades….They certainly sold high on Melky, even though I still think he’ll continue to improve….If he could just lay off the high heat when in a pitchers count. his average would go up .010 %, that’s just 1 hit per 100 ab’s….
One thing that Gardner has to improve on is his ugly strikeout rate. 70 career strikeouts in 375 at bats is unacceptable for anyone, but, especially for a purely singles hitter.
to me Brett Gardner is a Mickey Rivers who can’t hit….thus a pinch runner & decent D player
Wait till we do it all over again
January 2nd, 2010 at 7:35 pm
Bodhi-Look at the stats.
Remember, the stats are just events reduced to numbers. It’s just a way for people to write down what’s happening in the games.
======
Honor the concept that stats are not to be trusted in such small samples.
Bodhi,
Look at how his numbers trended in the minors and even last year before the thumb injury. I have faith in what I have already seen from him over and over. He starts slowly then really improves. He was good before he broke his thumb this year. I have faith in #’s.
Nick in SF
January 2nd, 2010 at 7:36 pm
I think he meant that Gardner wears pitchers’ out pitches.
====
It boggles the mind.
Bodhi-Fair enough.
Then look at his minor league stats. Even going by them he should hit only a little below average, and if you couple that with his speed and defense he should be an average to slightly above average player.
Phil the Thrill
January 2nd, 2010 at 7:43 pm
Bodhi,
Look at how his numbers trended in the minors and even last year before the thumb injury. I have faith in what I have already seen from him over and over. He starts slowly then really improves. He was good before he broke his thumb this year. I have faith in #’s.
======
Good at what?
Gee, since he was putting up 2 .900 plus months in a row, and playing outstanding, D, I’d say he was being good at baseball.
Phil the Thrill
January 2nd, 2010 at 7:43 pm
Bodhi,
Look at how his numbers trended in the minors and even last year before the thumb injury. I have faith in what I have already seen from him over and over. He starts slowly then really improves. He was good before he broke his thumb this year. I have faith in #’s.
———————————————————-
good point but he is playing against the best players in the world & will have to get better once again at a higher level
does not mean he will automatically be able to do it
me personally
i think he will be just ok
maybe a melky,little better at best
as soon as we get a better option at a reasonable price he is gone or back on the bench & when he becomes too expensive like melky he is gone
i would love too be wrong
Mind you, I’s still like to get Damon for a year. Then our lineup becomes insane.
Phil the Thrill
January 2nd, 2010 at 7:43 pm
Bodhi,
Look at how his numbers trended in the minors and even last year before the thumb injury. I have faith in what I have already seen from him over and over. He starts slowly then really improves. He was good before he broke his thumb this year. I have faith in #’s.
======
when did he break his thumb…he went 4 games in May without a AB other than that he really never missed time except for a game or two
Yeah, Pat…still on the pizza and Coor’s diet. It’s been yough without a cigarette to wash it down with, though.
A far as the C&C boys go, it was also the first thing that came to my mind. I have no idea about the rumors, but, there were a lot of them from different places to not lend some creedance to them.
Cano has a once in a long while of a GG/batting champion type talent from a middle infield spot. It’s why I couldn’t imagine all of the crying about wanting him traded for anything available. He’s a rare find. He’s much harder to replace than a corner outfielder. Not sure if NYY has a replacement for him or not. If they had a glove that good and who could hit and steal bases, then I’d think about Cano as a corner outfield, but, NYY doesn’t have that glove/bat man. I do believe that’s where he ends up, though. Only Jeter tracks flies as well as Cano, especially on medium pops to right. Great range and decent speed. Just not a great base runner.
Wait,
I know the Yankees like Gardner’s makeup.
But he just doesn’t have the talent to be what being giddily expected of him here.
He’s overmatched by major league pitching. His MiL “trends” are irrelevant.
If you can’t tell what he lacks by watching his ABs then consider this: Girardi was hell bent on making him the CF.
People on here have been complaining for two years about Melky Cabrera.
Well Brett Gardner, with the manager riding his jock, could not even beat out Melky for the starting job.
I’ve already commented at length on Gardner vs. LHP, Gardner’s plate mechanics, in previous posts. No stat is going to turn my head.
So you’re saying that:
1. Minor leage stats are irrelevant
2. Major league stats are too small a sample size.
I’m saying:
1. His MiL numbers show that he should at least be average to slightly below average
2. His ML numbers have certain trends that make me believe this is a possibility.
Bodhi,
I’m sure no stat is gonna turn your head. I just trust them.
Martin turned Mickey Rivers into a great bunter, maybe Mickey Rivers can turn Gradner into a good bunter…..If that were to be the case, Gardner would be a .300 hitter…….We had this discussion last off season, and he still a poor bunter…..It used to be if you were in a slump, you were ordered to take extra BP, however before you were alloewed to swing, you’d be dropping 30 bunts, just so you can watch the ball hit the bat, and you’d keep your head still and not pull off the pitch….Old School. but it always worked…
maybe a melky,little better at best
===
See, this is pie in the sky – even this.
If he could be “a little better” than Melky he would be a huge weapon and a great No. 9 hitter.
If he had Melky’s hitting ability? WIth his speed?
Being as good a hitter as Melky, is, IMO, out of Gardner’s reach. He has to completely alter his approach, because the one he’s using will not work for him in MLB.
Gardner DOES NOT play outstanding defense. He’s good…not great. He doesn’t go back well on balls and he has a lousy arm. he has speed to out run some of the mistakes. Where he’s good at is going into the gaps where he can just turn on the jets,
Gardner is actually an excellent bunter. He made a few mistakes in 09′ but he had very few attempts. If he attempted to bunt more I am confident, listening to what scouts and coaches say and what MiL numbers show, that he could be a good ML bunter.
Pat M.
January 2nd, 2010 at 7:59 pm
Martin turned Mickey Rivers into a great bunter, maybe Mickey Rivers can turn Gradner into a good bunter…..If that were to be the case, Gardner would be a .300 hitter……
====
I also made the observation that Rivers should tutor Gardner. He could also teach him a thing or two about how to play balls hit over his head.
GB&-I know you disregard UZR, but the fact is that UZR pegs Gardner as having excellent range. Sometimes he takes bad jumps, but that is more than made up for with his speed.
Pat M. January 2nd, 2010 at 7:59 pm
If that were to be the case, Gardner would be a .300 hitter…….
———————————————–
best idea I heard all day
GB& should be GB7. Sorry.
Wait till we do it all over again
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:01 pm
Gardner is actually an excellent bunter. He made a few mistakes in 09? but he had very few attempts. If he attempted to bunt more I am confident, listening to what scouts and coaches say and what MiL numbers show, that he could be a good ML bunter.
====
Well, that’s what we’ve all been waiting for with bated breath….where is it?
He seems to be content to take power swings and pop out.
Shouldn’t he have an inkling on what’s going to keep him here?
Why are people unwilling to give Gardner a shot when 4 teams tried to trade for him as a starter this offseason?
Gardner never hit the DL last year with his broken thumb…
I agree with GB7..Gardner occasionally take some lousy routes out there. That’s something that could be improved upon but he does have a LF arm.
The only 2009 regular to exceed Gardner in pitches per plate appearance (4.05) is Swisher and Damon (4.06). Of course, add Johnson to that list. Gardner also led the Yankess in sacrifice hits in half the at bats. He has some skills that Girardi likes to use and makes the Yankees less one dimensional. In addition, Gardner at least has upside potential. The Rocco Baldelli’s of this world are and will remain mediocre players.
Bodhi-He hasn’t had many AB’s. Give him time.
Wait till we do it all over again
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:02 pm
GB&-I know you disregard UZR, but the fact is that UZR pegs Gardner as having excellent range. Sometimes he takes bad jumps, but that is more than made up for with his speed.
————————————————————
he screwed up the same play on balls hit to center twice in the post season and they cost runs. He plays deep because he can’t get back on them. The one time he played in when Rivera was pitching, they still burned him. hus speed is to the left and right, not back.
Where he’s good at is going into the gaps where he can just turn on the jets,
====
Agreed. And he can come in well on the ball, although he sometimes tries to make a heroic play because of this.
He actually is suited well to LCF gap, running the ball down at an angle is his strength. I would be much more comfortable, defensively, with him in left than in center.
JK January 2nd, 2010 at 8:04 pm
Why are people unwilling to give Gardner a shot when 4 teams tried to trade for him as a starter this offseason?
————————————
if Bodhisattva was the GM he would have been traded
So because of two plays in the postseason you have come to the conclusion that Gardner is a bad fielder?
blake
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:05 pm
I agree with GB7..Gardner occasionally take some lousy routes out there. That’s something that could be improved upon but he does have a LF arm.
————————————————————
Well, yeah…compared to Damon, he’s got a great left fielder’s arm. Just not very accurate.
lets give damon a 1 year deal worth 11 mill with a club option. he gets the money he wants, we get some flexibility going forward.
i also think that with damon johnson and posada, they can all use rest throughout the year. give damon a day off here and there to keep his legs fresh and give him a day or 2 at DH. same with johnson, give him some days off. we can get gardner/hoffman into the line up here and there to keep the bench focused and ready to play if anyone gets hurt. and being realistic theres always injuries to deal with
I had once thought that Brett Gardner could become a Brett Butler type of player, (see below) scrappy punch hitter/ base threat almost every at bat, rarely overmatched by a pitcher but ….. that’s all changed.
I believe the Gardner we’ve seen is as good as he’ll ever get. Injury aside, he made no real strides in 2009, was of little consequence in the postseason as a runner, and balls hit to him are a real adventure. Just an ever so slight notch above Bubba Crosby.
http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/histo.....38;c_id=la
Actually, Gardner’s arm is only slightly below average strength wise and is pretty accurate.
Gardner’s bad hitting is all about no lower body. When he had those two good months he was using the lower body. I blame the minor league coaches for his bad mechanics. Why did he have to wait till the Majors before they addressed the problem?
You guys have a great debate going on here.
I’d just like to add a couple of things.
No one is expecting great things out of Gardner. I think most fans will take anything positive that he gives.
Another thing is that Gardner has barely graduated from rookie status. So, I don’t think he’s a finished product yet.
They must feel somewhat *comfortable* with him right now because they haven’t jumped at any of the FA LF yet. Subject to change of course.
Stan
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:10 pm
I had once thought that Brett Gardner could become a Brett Butler type of player, (see below) scrappy punch hitter/ base threat almost every at bat, rarely overmatched by a pitcher but ….. that’s all changed.
I believe the Gardner we’ve seen is as good as he’ll ever get. Injury aside, he made no real strides in 2009, was of little consequence in the postseason as a runner, and balls hit to him are a real adventure. Just an ever so slight notch above Bubba Crosby.
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no real strides???
2008 NYY 42 127 18 29 5 2 0 16 8 30 13 1 .228 .283 .299 .582
2009 NYY 108 248 48 67 6 6 3 23 26 40 26 5 .270 .345 .379 .724
Wait till we do it all over again
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:05 pm
Bodhi-He hasn’t had many AB’s. Give him time.
====
Wait,
You and I are at an impasse, because we have a fundamental difference.
Have I already made a judgment about Brett Gardner’s abilities as a hitter, even though he’s not had much ML time?
Yes, I admit I have.
But it’s not because I’m “impatient” with young players.
I have advocated strongly for two years for the Yankees to get Miranda’s bat into our lineup.
I am also looking forward to Joba and Hughes developing as starters.
I look with anticipation to watching Melancon blossom in the bullpen.
Those guys I can justify being patient with and excited about – they have a lot of ability.
Gardner isn’t in that class – why should I be patient with a guy who turns 27 in August, and has not shown anything as a hitter to be excited about?
He has great legs – and lacks the other offensive assets to take advantage of them in the game of baseball.
We can circumvent that – we can take advantage of his plus-plus speed – because in baseball there’s this magical thing called a pinch runner.
Brett Gardner doesn’t even have to get a hit or walk to be standing on first and in a position to take advantage of his speed.
Someone else can get that hit for him.
I’m all for that.
It’s remarkable how fortunate we have been over the last 7 years compared to the previous 20 or so.
Opening day starting left fielder:
1984 Kemp
1985 Griffey
1986 Cotto
1987 Pasqua
1988 Henderson
1989 Henderson
1990 Hall
1991 Meulens
1992 Hall
1993 O’Neill
1994 Polonia
1995 O’Neill
1996 G. Williams
1997 Strawberry
1998 Curtis
1999 Ledee
2000 Spencer
2001 Knoblauch
2002 White
2003 Matsui
2004 Matsui
2005 Matsui
2006 Matsui
2007 Matsui
2008 Damon
2009 Damon
let’s not make brett gardner more than he is.I think cash is just leaving left field open for crawford in 2011….the yankees need a reed johnson or someone of that type of player to come off the bench to support him..he is not an everyday major league player
GB7,
Shame on you. The bench had Gardner playing ultra-shallow behind Rivera. Name me one player that could catch up to the bomb that Mo gave up.
his ba went from .228 too .270
his obp from .283 too .345
slg .299 too .379
ops .582 too .724
with 121 more ab in 2009 from 2008
Another thing is that Gardner has barely graduated from rookie status. So, I don’t think he’s a finished product yet.
===
And this is where the disagreement is of a fundamental nature.
He isn’t going to spike much as a hitter, IMO. I don’t have to “wait and see.”
If you accept, for argument’s sake, that some people feel they have enough evidence on what it called “upside” to anticipate no great strides, then those people aren’t being “impatient,” – for them, the jury is in.
Bod, I do remember you’re comment about getting Mick The Quick to work with Gardner….Rivers used to come to camp as an instructor when Goerge was running the show…….Getting him to Tampa and away from the track was always the key……Steinbrenner always paid his instructors anywhere from 50 grand to 100 grand….With Rivers, he had Mickey on an allowence, just so he wouldn’t blow on the dogs or horses……Always remembered the stor about Mickey & his wife doing bumper cars with their Mercedes in the Yankee’s parking lot, because he had blown a good chunk of his 15 th of the month paycheck at Yonkers Raceway
Wait till we do it all over again
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:07 pm
So because of two plays in the postseason you have come to the conclusion that Gardner is a bad fielder?
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blowing two plays out of 8 chances isn’t very good.
“Gardner DOES NOT play outstanding defense. He’s good…not great. He doesn’t go back well on balls and he has a lousy arm. he has speed to out run some of the mistakes. Where he’s good at is going into the gaps where he can just turn on the jets,”
Agreed. Plus doesn’t seem to have great instincts on the basepaths, is overmatched at the plate, and to this point is a poor bunter. Still It’s possible he can turn it around, just not likely imo.
Jeff, I couldn’t disagree more on Swisher…When you hit close to 30 HRs and drive on close to 90 RBIs, you are an everday player.
There are countless ballplayers that burst on the scene and took baseball by storm. And then disappeared after the second year. It’s all about adjustment. Gardner right now is too small a sample size. That’s soon to tell, that’s it.
Bo Knows
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:11 pm
Gardner’s bad hitting is all about no lower body. When he had those two good months he was using the lower body. I blame the minor league coaches for his bad mechanics. Why did he have to wait till the Majors before they addressed the problem?
=====
He has a power swing – that is a comic irony in itself.
He hits feeble pop flies – rarely hits the ball on the ground, precluding giving his legs a chance; that’s really understanding what you bring to the table.
Here’s your answer on why: because in MiL he was able to succeed with that approach – he doesn’t have a quick enough bat or pitch recognition/plate discipline to do it in MLB.
Gardner only had about 280 at bats,
given a full season he could likely hit 10 Hr 80-90 Rbi and about 90+ runs, with good defense.
That’s not too bad for what people are calling our 4th outfield. Ok Damon might hit 10-15 more homers, but is it worth the extra $6-$8M/yr
m
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:19 pm
GB7,
Shame on you. The bench had Gardner playing ultra-shallow behind Rivera. Name me one player that could catch up to the bomb that Mo gave up.
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He froze in his tracks on that play and on another one turned the wrong way twice on a catchable high fly. The one off of Rivera wasn’t really a bomb. It just turned into one. He never moved. He can’t go back of balls. He looks worse on them than the last years of Bernie Williams did.
gardner might be able to survive in the majors but he will never wow you with production that many other players can be easily brought in too give us
he might have a decent ba,steals but never a great obp,slg,ops,hr,rbi
bottom line he can very easily be replaced just like melky
any time we definitively can get better at a position we attack it
when you have a 100 million dollar infield & our 1-4 pitchers cost 62 million it stresses the budget
Tarheelyank
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:22 pm
“Gardner DOES NOT play outstanding defense. He’s good…not great. He doesn’t go back well on balls and he has a lousy arm. he has speed to out run some of the mistakes. Where he’s good at is going into the gaps where he can just turn on the jets,”
Agreed. Plus doesn’t seem to have great instincts on the basepaths, is overmatched at the plate, and to this point is a poor bunter. Still It’s possible he can turn it around, just not likely imo.
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His bunting is what really confuses me. He was a very good minor league bunter. That’s why I always thought that he could be a Brett Butler type. That’s who he reminded my of.
The amount of times Nick Johnson is going to score because he was simply on base, when Tex or ARod or whoever bats fifth hits a HR, or an extra base hit, is going to vastly outweigh the few runs we don’t score because NJ didn’t get from first to third, or score from second, when a faster runner would have.
It isn’t even close.
Nick will be phenomenal in the 2 hole.
Bodhi,
I can respect your opinion.
But I’m going to hope for the best and take any positives I can.
I have the confidence that the Yankees will make the best decisions they can with the informations they have and within the parameters they’ve established.
I know that if LF becomes a problem, the Yankees will do everything within their considerable powers to fix it.
And that’s why I don’t sweat it too much when the Yankees say they feel comfortable with Gardner in LF. Because even if they’re lying through their teeth, they’re working on a solution.
NJ Steve is correct, this is an absurd discussion. Last year we won with Melky in CF and anyone who understands the game at all recognized Gardner played better than Melky. yes, Girardi was playing the wrong guy. Gardner saved a ton of runs over Melky who was slow for a CF’r. As hitters , after taking the SB’s into account they were very close.
SO PLAY GARDNER IN CF AND GRANDERSON IN LF AND PLATOON MOSTLY GRANDERSON UNLESS HE HITS LEFTIES BETTER THAN GARDNER.
my friends, let us lengthen our lineup…..
jeter
damon
nick j
tex
arod
posada
cano
swisher
granderson
this is a recipe for never-before seen efficiency.
GeorgeInJax
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:27 pm
Gardner only had about 280 at bats,
given a full season he could likely hit 10 Hr 80-90 Rbi and about 90+ runs, with good defense.
That’s not too bad for what people are calling our 4th outfield. Ok Damon might hit 10-15 more homers, but is it worth the extra $6-$8M/yr
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He’s not going to knock in 80-90 runs, unless he had 70 bases loaded walks.
“Last year we won with Melky in CF and anyone who understands the game at all recognized Gardner played better than Melky.”
So what you are saying is that Joe Girardi doesn”t understand the game at all?
Pat M.
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:21 pm
Bod, I do remember you’re comment about getting Mick The Quick to work with Gardner….Rivers used to come to camp as an instructor when Goerge was running the show…….Getting him to Tampa and away from the track was always the key……Steinbrenner always paid his instructors anywhere from 50 grand to 100 grand….With Rivers, he had Mickey on an allowence, just so he wouldn’t blow on the dogs or horses……Always remembered the stor about Mickey & his wife doing bumper cars with their Mercedes in the Yankee’s parking lot, because he had blown a good chunk of his 15 th of the month paycheck at Yonkers Raceway
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LOL. They broke the mold on Rivers. Loved his gimpy-fast running and the gleam in his half-closed eye. Dirty laugh.
Hey – can he teach Gardner to run to the wall and turn around?
okay, gb7
Pat M, I think people are underrating Granderson, too……and I think Long will help him become passable against lefties. AS to Nick, he’s no speed demon, lol……but he’s going to be fine in that spot. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.
GB, how are you doing? I have a bad habit of biting my nails, lol, but I’ve been doing it so long, I’m up to my shoulders, lol
George in Jax, the day Gardner puts up those #s is the day that I become a Red Sox fan………..those are far beyond his capabilities
m,
I don’t really believe Cashman is being genuine when he says as much.
Hope you’ve had a great holiday, BTW.
We were looking through old photographs of our Christmases in Hawaii – no snow, but those were the best of times
.
He’s not going to knock in 80-90 runs, unless he had 70 bases loaded walks.
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and that isn’t going to happen because he doesn’t walk
Man a lot of you guys are haters for a guy coming off his rookie year. We might as well go back to the old crazy days & trade all our prospects for old worn out players.
How are we ever going to bring Montero on the team without a few growing pains.
Melancon struggled a bit when he was brought up, does that mean he can’t help the team this year? Of course not!
Gardner has a grand total of 150 MLB games, give the kid a shot!
Cashman fielded the team to win this last WS, trust him. All the moves he’s made, is making the Yankees better and younger, trust the process. Stop acting as if Damon is the be all on this team. Cashman knows best, he has fielded 5 WS winning teams!! Damon wasn’t reasonable, it happens next!
GreenBeret7
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:28 pm
m
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:19 pm
GB7,
Shame on you. The bench had Gardner playing ultra-shallow behind Rivera. Name me one player that could catch up to the bomb that Mo gave up.
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He froze in his tracks on that play and on another one turned the wrong way twice on a catchable high fly. The one off of Rivera wasn’t really a bomb. It just turned into one. He never moved. He can’t go back of balls. He looks worse on them than the last years of Bernie Williams did.
==========
He “freezes” on balls hit over his head. He does not get a good first step going.
The Yanks did have Gardner playing shallow because of Rivera on the mound, but he never got off the ball.
You’ll remember, no doubt, the way Rickey used to sort of pull up before he got to the baseball. Gardner also has a habit of slowing down to a crawl when he gets near the ball – and will also extend his glove while running back (!). How could any coach see that and not attempt to disabuse him of it?
Bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:35 pm
Pat M.
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:21 pm
Bod, I do remember you’re comment about getting Mick The Quick to work with Gardner….Rivers used to come to camp as an instructor when Goerge was running the show…….Getting him to Tampa and away from the track was always the key……Steinbrenner always paid his instructors anywhere from 50 grand to 100 grand….With Rivers, he had Mickey on an allowence, just so he wouldn’t blow on the dogs or horses……Always remembered the stor about Mickey & his wife doing bumper cars with their Mercedes in the Yankee’s parking lot, because he had blown a good chunk of his 15 th of the month paycheck at Yonkers Raceway
====
LOL. They broke the mold on Rivers. Loved his gimpy-fast running and the gleam in his half-closed eye. Dirty laugh.
Hey – can he teach Gardner to run to the wall and turn around?
————————————————————
The funniest thing I ever saw with Mickey Rivers was in a game where Gossage came in early in 1978. Gossage had some troubles with homers a deep flies early in the year. Munson called time out and went out to the mound, laughing. Gossage wanted to know what was so funny and Munson told him to turn around and look at Rivers. Rivers was down in a sprinter’s stance, facing the center field wall.
Gardy may not knock in 80-90 runs,
But I’m darned sure he scores 100 runs if he is a starter.
Bodhisattva – how can you say that Melky was by far teh better hitter and that Gardner showed he wore down after playing every day?
When he was playing most days in the first half his OPS was better than Melky’s. Even after playing after his broken thumb (if you ever played ball you know this is hard to do) he was still close to Melky and after taking SB’s into account he was right with Melky. CF defense was no question in favor of Gardner as Melky played balls off the walls that Gardner caught (including the one wear he gave himself a concussion)
“no amount of stats will change your mind” is a very ignorant statement.
Gardner>Melky
btw, Lew Paper’s new book, Perfect, about Don Larsen’s big game and all the players in it, is a really fun book, and not statsy at all for you non stats folks.
Betsy – Romine wasn’t built in a day
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:36 pm
Pat M, I think people are underrating Granderson, too……and I think Long will help him become passable against lefties. AS to Nick, he’s no speed demon, lol……but he’s going to be fine in that spot. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.
GB, how are you doing? I have a bad habit of biting my nails, lol, but I’ve been doing it so long, I’m up to my shoulders, lol
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That’s not good, Betsy. You’ll wear your teeth down to the nubs. No teeth, no arms…you’ll be earing through a straw….like Randy and Pat M.
Im gonna laugh when Gardner proves all you haters wrong
And whats with the Reed Johnson love around here,the guy is a bum
GeorgeInJax
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:42 pm
Man a lot of you guys are haters for a guy coming off his rookie year. We might as well go back to the old crazy days & trade all our prospects for old worn out players.
How are we ever going to bring Montero on the team without a few growing pains.
Melancon struggled a bit when he was brought up, does that mean he can’t help the team this year?
Of course not!
Gardner has a grand total of 150 MLB games, give the kid a shot!
====
Using Montero and Gardner in the same sentence is either dishonest or clueless, one.
Wave, I think Johnson will be held at 3rd more than any player on the club not named Jorge Posoda……Come May, Johnson’s lack of speed will be a frequently written topic…..I can just hrear it now, 2 outs & Johnson is the tying run on 2nd……Giradi will run for him….It’ll be a common theme folks & just remember who’s calling it now !!!!!
New post
Betsy, this thought that after all these years (and a .484 OPS against lefties…FOUR EIGHT FOUR!) it is folly to think our coaching is so superior. If we are LUCKY, he will get to a .700 OPS which is still weak.
Using Montero and Gardner in the same sentence is either dishonest or clueless, one.
————————-
The context was not an equation of talent level between Montero & Gardner, or even Melancon who I also mentioned.
My 8:47 post was about the fact most rookies aren’t stars from day 1. That they need some time to grow at the MLB level. Even with his thumb injury Gardner showed improvement.
If that makes me clueless than I’ll gladly wear that tag.
Guru Man
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:44 pm
Bodhisattva – how can you say that Melky was by far teh better hitter and that Gardner showed he wore down after playing every day?
When he was playing most days in the first half his OPS was better than Melky’s. Even after playing after his broken thumb (if you ever played ball you know this is hard to do) he was still close to Melky and after taking SB’s into account he was right with Melky. CF defense was no question in favor of Gardner as Melky played balls off the walls that Gardner caught (including the one wear he gave himself a concussion)
“no amount of stats will change your mind” is a very ignorant statement.
Gardner>Melky
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Guru,
Melky is a better hitter. That’s not saying much, of course, and I’m not exactly going out on a limb.
The irony is, Melky “protected” Gardner from what his true numbers might have been, because Melky had to absorb most of the LHP. Gardner had something like 65 PA vs. LHP.
I’m not getting into the defensive debate on these two again. I’ve written at length on this site about it.
Any way, Melky’s been traded, so the discussion is moot.
Pat M-
Nick is an on-base god. Tex and ARod’s RBI totals are going to skyrocket. You heard it here first!
George,
My point being – I will happily endure the “growing pains” Montero might suffer through, because I know there’s a pot of gold at the end of that road.
I also expect a lot from Melancon, whose pitching I’m very well acquainted with, beyond the small sample size of 2009 in the majors.
You’re implying that people here who don’t see much promise in Gardner will, across the board, be as dismissive of Montero and Melancon.
But the expectation for them is quite different.
GB must be feeling good, as he’s hitting to all fields tonight…..That story about Rivers in the sprinters stance is classic Mickey Rivers…..There was another story about Rivers and Reggie…They were on a plane and Mickey was reading a Archie comic book, and Reg is going on about his .165 IQ…..Rivers respose was that Regiie’s IQ was higher than his batting average, as Reg was in a slump…..
If we’re using UZR as the Bible here, DeJesus was the 2nd best LF in the majors behind Carl Crawford.
In a Yankee lineup, .300/15/80 and 100+ runs would be more than attainable, plus fantastic defense. No way Gardner would come close to that package.
Pat, Mickey had no use for Jackson. He told Jackson that reason he (Jackson) was so confused about who he was, was because he had a white man’s first name, a Mexican’s middle name and a black man’s last name.
GB, I remember that line about Reggie’s name…..Oh the days of The Bronx Zoo…..One of my favorite teams ever
The funniest thing I ever saw with Mickey Rivers was in a game where Gossage came in early in 1978. Gossage had some troubles with homers a deep flies early in the year. Munson called time out and went out to the mound, laughing. Gossage wanted to know what was so funny and Munson told him to turn around and look at Rivers. Rivers was down in a sprinter’s stance, facing the center field wall.
====
Yeah, I’m sure Goose loved that.
LOL. They should put Rivers in the booth. Now that’d be a hoot. People think Swish is a goofball. Rivers is goofy – but like a fox.
I guess were moving to a new thread !!!!
GB7,
I remember that quote.
Could this current world even produce someone like Mickey Rivers? I doubt it.
Bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:59 pm
George,
My point being – I will happily endure the “growing pains” Montero might suffer through, because I know there’s a pot of gold at the end of that road.
I also expect a lot from Melancon, whose pitching I’m very well acquainted with, beyond the small sample size of 2009 in the majors.
You’re implying that people here who don’t see much promise in Gardner will, across the board, be as dismissive of Montero and Melancon.
But the expectation for them is quite different.
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Very valid points
The expectations should be very different because they are all very different players. The expectations between Gardner and Damon would also be very different. Gardner is not going to be power hitter, so trying to meet those expectations would be foolish. The speed he brings is of a value that should not be diminished for lack of power. Speed allows him to greatly improve an OF position defensively, and with just a little bump in OBP he will be a threat to steal and score many runs in front of our terrific lineup. Having him at #9 in front of our top of the lineup creates problems for the opposing team.
I never proposed that he is an All-Star, but for a 2nd year kid, he brings value to the position.
The comparisons to ’96 and ’98-’00 are unavailing. The Sox were not a particularly good team back then–this coming season, though, they’ll be deadly. The Rays and Jays are also considerably better than they were before the turn of the millennium. Weakness in left is unacceptable.
Unfortunately what most people fail to realize in these so called comparisons is that they had a ton of production out of CF with a switch hitting 300 plus 25 hr plus Bernie Williams and a big bomber most noticeably Paul ONeal through those championship seasons. ONeal while known for power arm and defense even won a batting title. The other parts and pieces of this years outfield include Swisher, who had a career year and is still a number 9 hitter and Granderson who hit 240 last season and doesn’t hit his weight against lefties. Even on a down year all three outfield spots produced better than any projections you could come up with this year. I agree, by itself, left field is not that big an issue,… the problem lies within the sum of it’s parts. This outfield is light hitting with moderate power and terrible in the clutch against playoff caliber pitching.
Gardner and Hoffman
vs. Gerald Williams, Tim Raines, Ruben Sierra AND Darryl Strawberry.
vs. Chad Curtis and Raines.
vs. Curtis, Rickey Ledee and Shane Spencer.
vs. David Justice, Ledee and Spencer.
It’a bit apples and orange-like. Yes it compares yester-years and as-of-today LFs but the as-of-today LF combo does not have the depth, experience or skill-set as the yester-year combos. The numbers are not awe inspiring from those old guys but I would take them any day over what we have this year.
Having said that, the corner OFs are of such marginal ability these days we just might, emphasize might, get away with the undynamic duo of Gardner and Hoffman. Even if you throw in Johnson it just stills seems unfair to compare them to the yester-years.
Stop the nonsense with the budget. If we don’t sign Holliday sign Damon. Everyone else will eventually be replaced because they have huge flaws. Don’t discount Damon’s clutch and playoff presence. He was better than Tex in the post season, it took Arod 5 tries with the Yanks to produce, and Johnson and Granderson are new to the pressure. Pressure doesn’t bother Damon, he thrives on it, don’t discount that value.
Damon is on the wrong side of 35, has recurring leg and foot problems every season, and looks like he’s going blind trying to track fly balls in LF. His offensive numbers were enhanced dramatically by the home run haven that the new stadium is.
Granderson hit 30 jacks despite playing in possibly the worst HR park in the major leagues last year. And he’s 29 years old, and an outstanding OFer.
Matsui is also on the wrong side of 35, and has not one, but two chronically bad knees. He, too, was aided dramatically by the short RF porch in Yankee Stadium. Nick Johnson is an OB monster, trailing only Albert Pujols and Joe Mauer in OBP last year.
How CG and NJ are a “downgrade” from Damon and Matsui is beyond my comprehension. Cashman was brilliant here, getting the team much younger, cheaper and better in every way in one fell swoop.