The state of the Yankees bullpen
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 04, 2010 
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Maybe it’s because Mariano Rivera makes everyone feel safe in the late innings, or maybe it’s because Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain have proven relievers can come from almost anywhere. Whatever the reason, the Yankees bullpen hasn’t been much of a focus this winter. I don’t even remember the Yankees being closely linked to a reliever in free agent rumors.
The Yankees have traded away four relievers (Brian Bruney, Phil Coke and Mike Dunn) and lost another potential major-league-ready reliever in the Rule 5 draft (Zach Kroenke). They have added one lefty (Boone Logan) and put two Triple-A pitchers (Ivan Nova and Romulo Sanchez) on the 40-man.
This is where the bullpen stands at the start of the new year.
The closer
Mariano Rivera
Set in stone. Not going anywhere. Jonathan Albaladejo could show up in spring training throwing 122 mph fastballs for strikes, and Rivera would still be the closer.
Heavy favorites
Dave Robertson, Damaso Marte, Alfredo Aceves
No one is guaranteed a job like Rivera is guaranteed a job, but these three are probably next in line: Robertson in some sort of late-inning role, Marte as a go-to lefty and Aceves as a long reliever or possibly in some sort of setup-type role.
One or the other
Joba Chamberlain, Phil Hughes
There are other fifth starter candidates, but these two seem to be the heavy favorites. Whichever doesn’t make the rotation could go to Triple-A, but the bullpen — in my opinion – seems much more likely. It obviously won’t be a small bullpen role either.
Specific roles to play
Chad Gaudin, Sergio Mitre, Boone Logan, Wilkin De La Rosa
Two long relief/spot starter candidates. Two left-handed specialist candidates. De La Rosa is included here only because he’s on the 40-man, and if he were to somehow make the big league team, it would certainly be as a second lefty. He’s an extreme long shot, though. How many of these make the team probably depends on how the Yankees structure their bullpen.
This year’s Dave Robertson?
Mark Melancon
Whatever last year’s struggles in New York, I believe Melancon going to be a very good major league pitcher. Remember that Robertson also struggled a bit in his first big league exposure, but as he adjusted, he lived up to his billing. Same could, and I think will, happen to Melancon even if he opens the 2010 season in Triple-A (much like Robertson did in 2009).
Been there. Done that. Still plenty to prove.
Edwar Ramirez, Jonathan Albaladejo, Romulo Sanchez
Ramirez was good in 2008 but never seemed 100 percent healthy after a spring training injury in 2009. Albaladejo made 32 big league appearances last year and allowed an earned run in only eight of them, but six of those were multi-run outings. Sanchez’s 26 games of big league experience came spread across two seasons with the Pirates, but he pitched well enough last year in Scranton/Wilkes-Barre to earn a chance to prove himself in spring training.
Upper-level minor league starters
Ivan Nova, Zach McAllister, Kei Igawa, Alan Horne, Chris Garcia, Jason Hirsh
If the Yankees were willing to make Hughes a reliever, they’re willing to make any starter a reliever. Horne and Garcia have great stuff but are coming back from injuries. Nova raised his stock with a strong 2009. McAllister is perhaps the top upper-level starter in the organization. Hirsh has pitched in the big leagues with Houston and Colorado. Igawa is Igawa.
Upper-level minor league relievers
Kevin Whelan, Grant Duff, Eric Wordekemper, Josh Schmidt
None of these four is on the 40-man, and all would be extreme long shots to actually open the season in New York. Whelan and Duff are probably closest to the big leagues, especially Whelan if he can throw strikes. Wordekemper doesn’t have much if any prospect buzz, but his numbers have always been good in the minors. Same for Schmidt, who was terrific last season and now leads the Venezuelan Winter League in strikeouts.
I like the pen a lot better if either Joba or Hughes is out there. The Yankees have done a really good job of building the bullpen from within the last couple years and with the number of quality arms in the system I think it will be fine. I’d much rather them put kids out there than waste money on hit or miss free agents.
Repost- Off topic :
Random thoughts:
I hope this wont come off as seeming ungrateful (because I am not) but:
I find the yankees new found religion on the budget both ironic as well as somewhat laughable.
Why ?
The Yankees are a cash cow.
Between the YES network, concession deals, outrageous prices on food and spirits at the stadium, etc. They are making a mint. And that is great.
What isn’t so great is that if they are now on a strict budget then i agree with G. Love and they ought to start applying some of that savings to better ticket prices and lowered costs on fare at the stadium.
I dont think they are gonna do it.
It’s ironic, to me at least, that the very thing that was a hallmark of Yankee power (their money) is now being derided by some as “excess”.
I ask you, what is “excess” for a team that just continues to churn out money ?
Aroldis chapman, MH, etc ?
Passing on them is a sign of the new frugality when getting them helps the Yanks to reign sumpreme for years to come.
This supposed to be wrong. For the Yanks to be the best they can be ?
To settle for GGBG over either Damon or MH ?
This makes sense. Sure in a paralell universe maybe but not for the Yankees.
Not in my opinion.
Sorry.
In my opinion the Yankees should use whatever bullets are at their disposal to continue to reign supreme because they are a premiere franchise in all the world of sports.
And they have earned that distinction, and I hope they never back away from what they are.
Watching the yankees now with their new found budget religion in hand is like hearing a drunk swear off his next drink.
personally I hope the yanks keep on binging as much they want to for as long as they can.
They are the Yankees and I hope no one needs to say more.
I apologize for the length of this post but I wanted to get this off my chest.
Making Phil (who I expect to lose the competition) a short man would be completely asinine. If they do that, then they should just trade him because by the time he would become a viable starter, he’d be about 27/28 years old. Making Phil a short man would tell me the Yankees have no clue how to develop a young pitcher. LOL I already know about Santana and all the other pitchers who started out in the pen…….but I don’t think they were set-up men. It’s just a complete waste of material, IMO.
As to the pen as a whole, I like only 3 pieces: Mo, Robertson and Marte (and even Marte is a question mark, though if he’s healthy, he should be good).
Making Phil (who I expect to lose the competition) a short man would be completely asinine. If they do that, then they should just trade him because by the time he would become a viable starter, he’d be about 27/28 years old. Making Phil a short man would tell me the Yankees have no clue how to develop a young pitcher. LOL I already know about Santana and all the other pitchers who started out in the pen…….but I don’t think they were set-up men. It’s just a complete waste of material, IMO.
As to the pen as a whole, I like only 3 pieces: Mo, Robertson and Marte (and even Marte is a question mark, though if he’s healthy, he should be good).
MTU – it came off as ungrateful…
So I’m back at work today for the first time since Dec. 23. I’m having a very hard time keeping my eyes open. I’m hoping the Yankees do something to day-maybe that will give me some energy.
edit: today, not “to day”
Tom-
That was NOT my intention.
Frank, I don’t agree with you about AJ and his performance, but I guess we’ll have to leave it at that.
Oops, I do like Gaudin and think he can be useful….outside of those I mentioned, not a fan of the pen.
Edwar ramirez needs to turn sideways and disappear off the roster.
I still agree with CB on this.
Joba/Phil are worth more as emergency starters.
Here’s why…
If the starters can provide length, then their high IP totals reduce the number of outs required from the pen.
By the time things up in the playoff race, Hughes (for example) will be available for the major league pen because he’ll be closing in on his innings cap as a starter in AAA. We’d have Hughes in the pen for the playoff race and in the postseason. Joba would be in the pen for the postseason as well.
Also, Huston Street is a free agent after 2010. He’s solid, young and AL-battle tested.
I think they could add a cheap LH reliever.
I agree that Melancon should take off this year.
I don’t want Phil in the pen almost no matter what until September at the earliest. I don’t want Joba in the pen unless he can no longer maintain his FB velo as a starter.
I think Hughes should be the starter and Joba should be in the pen. his makeup just seems better suited for coming in and firing bullets for an inning or so. Hughes could be the 5th starter and keep his inning total to 175 or so and that is fine.
Hughes has more pitches and Joba has plus pitches in his slider and his fastball and those are better suited as a reliever.
I do agree that a starter is worth much more than a reliever, but I think Joba may be the closer of the future if Rivera ever slows down
I think Hughes should be the starter and Joba should be in the pen. his makeup just seems better suited for coming in and firing bullets for an inning or so. Hughes could be the 5th starter and keep his inning total to 175 or so and that is fine.
Hughes has more pitches and Joba has plus pitches in his slider and his fastball and those are better suited as a reliever.
I do agree that a starter is worth much more than a reliever, but I think Joba may be the closer of the future if Rivera ever slows down
Also, before anyone questions me about it, no – I’m not putting Phil ahead of the Yankees interests. Like Pat M, I think Phil will be a tremendous starter and it is in there best interests to get that process started as soon as possible.
I also believe Acevas would be a good starter as he has 4 pitches he can throw for strikes. I have confidence in him
“Also, Huston Street is a free agent after 2010. He’s solid, young and AL-battle tested.”
You’d have to think Street will be looking to land someplace where he will be the closer. He’s probably looking at $6.5M-$7M in arb this year. Hard to imagine he won’t be seeking $9M-$10M in free agency. You envision the Yankees going that distance for a guy who would be Mo’s caddie? Especially when a guy like Hughes or Melancon may be able to do it for about 10% of that?
Joba would be in the pen for the postseason as well.
–
Not a guarantee.
“I do agree that a starter is worth much more than a reliever, but I think Joba may be the closer of the future if Rivera ever slows down”
Even assuming that you are right about the future, why does it makes sense to put Joba in the pen now if he can be the starter he was in June and July of 2008? That kind of starter is worth more than a closer, and far, far more than an 8th inning reliever.
Betsy-
Phil and Joba will go mano a mano in spring training to see who gets the 5 spot.
Maybe Phil will come out on top ?
What other way is there to decide at this point ?
You’d have to think Street will be looking to land someplace where he will be the closer. He’s probably looking at $6.5M-$7M in arb this year. Hard to imagine he won’t be seeking $9M-$10M in free agency. You envision the Yankees going that distance for a guy who would be Mo’s caddie? Especially when a guy like Hughes or Melancon may be able to do it for about 10% of that?
—
It depends on the savings Hughes/Joba provide versus signing another starter. Hughes/Joba, if kept as starters in 2010 would replace Vazquez (Lee would replace Pettitte)Vazquez earns 11.5 this year and might get upwards around 14 million. What if Joba and Phil can give Vazquez like production for 10% of that.
Wordekemper and Venditte have been hammered in the Venezuelan Winter Leagues, though Schmidt appears to be doing pretty well as strictly a starter. Duff did pretty wel in arizona in limited games. I wouldn’t really count on them too much.
Jerkface
January 4th, 2010 at 9:44 am
Joba would be in the pen for the postseason as well.
–
Not a guarantee.
—
If a starter goes down or doesn’t perform, he could get a start.
In which case, he’s insurance and we need to keep him as a starter or a starter on reserve in AAA.
I will ammend what I said about Venditte a little. It’s when he’s pitching left handed that he’s getting hammered. as a eight hander, he’s been close to perfect.
I always thought that Joba was destined to become the next Goose Gossage.
Betsy, I think phil will be the 5th starter. Just a hunch.
Every year the Yankees have one or two too many for the rotation, and every year something happens where they end up needing six or seven starters. Both Joba and Hughes need to go to spring training as starters and either can be cut back at any any time. I would love for the front four to be perfectly healthy and for Joba and Hughes to perform so well that the decision between the two is near impossible, but these things tend to work themselves out.
Tom-
Then Joba needs to grow a mustache.
A Fu Manchu, perhaps?
Tom-
we’d be bumpin up against Yankee policy there ?
“You can’t discount that this money helps the competing teams that partake of that windfall, whether it allows them to compete in the free agent market or merely allows them to stay afloat (not spending the money on players).”
Luxury tax is not distributed to the other teams, it goes to the Central Fund to pay players benefits and to promote baseball in other countries.
Wally Pip,
Exactly.
The pen is important, but not as important as the rotation.
The best plan is to fortify the rotation and use Hughes/Joba in the pen for the playoff race and postseason. This way you get your cake and eat it too.
Tom-
Instead of a fist pump maybe Joba could patent the tomahawk pump (just kidding, for the politically correct amonst you).
I really hope Melancon has a good spring because he could be a solid part of our pen. He’s obviously talented, but his stint in NY last year was unimpressive, especially his lack of control. We also have to hope that Robertson doesn’t backslide (and that he’s healthy, which seems to have been a question towards the end of the post-season).
It seems that market for Jose Valverde is weak due to his type A status.Yanks should sign him ,losing the 32nd pick in draft is not that big adeal and that draft money could go on Chapman a true #1pick.The addition of Valverde would give the yanks the best bullpen in baseball.
repost from previous subject
Doreen – Ain’t it Just “Grand”?
January 4th, 2010 at 9:39 am
GB7 -
Thanks for pointing that out about Igawa. That, and the fact that the Yankees never ever touted him as anything more than a fifth starter (which isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement anyway). He simply couldn’t adapt.
————————————————————
Not sure what happened other than a miscalculation by the scouts. At one time, they thought that it might by that the MLB baseballs were larger than Japanese League baseballs and he couldn’t adapt to them as well as the others had.
Thank you, Chad. This picks up where we left off yesterday. We were discussing the Yankees and how they develop starters in the majors. Or don’t.
If they see both Joba and Hughes as starters, then they should be such.
Circumstances and injuries have derailed the two in the past, but at some point they need to get back on track.
I would go Joba in the rotation and Hughes to the pen. If Joba can’t make it out of the 5th on a consistent basis, I’d then seriously consider moving him to the pen and replace him with Hughes.
Which brings me to the topic I wanted to discuss today. Why did the Yankees bring in Javy? Why not go with Joba and Hughes as your 4/5?
IP Limit? Not a problem for Joba. Easily controllable for Hughes. Especially with Aceves/Gaudin in the pen. And leaves the door open for Wang (or other mid-season pickup)
Gun-shy? Probably. But Joba put up decent numbers on average. And Hughes was hitting his stride before the move to the bullpen. At some point, you gotta see what the two kids give you in the same rotation.
Don’t see one (Joba) or the other as a starter long-term?
What do you guys think?
m-
Next year for both.
m
“I would go Joba in the rotation and Hughes to the pen. If Joba can’t make it out of the 5th on a consistent basis, I’d then seriously consider moving him to the pen and replace him with Hughes.”
If you put Hughes in the pen, how does he ever accumulate sufficient innings to be stretched as a starter, or do you envision him as a career reliever?
Blake, it’s not that I don’t have faith in Phil –I do. I just don’t think he’s prepared (not his fault as he was in the pen the majority of the year) to win a competition with Joba as Joba is at least a year ahead of him now development-wise. The whole thing is just silly and I’m being kind when I say that.
Unless Dave Eiland can make something out of him, Boone Logan doesn’t seem to be a candidate as a bullpen lefty.
He may compete with Wilkin De La Rosa for a spot.
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com....._id=457429
He’s obviously talented, but his stint in NY last year was unimpressive, especially his lack of control
–
Luckily lack of control is not something that has ever plagued him in the minors. I hope he gets over whatever issue caused that and settles in. The one thing I loved about Melancon was reading an interview with some Yankee guy and him saying that Melancon aced all their psyche evaluations and graded out as ‘closer mentality’ or whatever.
A number of things hinge on that fifth starter. Not a fan of:
Sergio Mitre, Boone Logan, Wilkin De La Rosa, dwar Ramirez, or Jonathan Albaladejo
would be nice to see Melancon step up this year.
No one asked but I like Joba’s fire in the Bullpen. Doesn’t mean he’s couldn’t be a great starter just like his mentality, seems to pump everyone up (fans and team mates alike! that should account for something).
i think in the long run, joba will be in the pen and phil in the rotation, but for this season, they pretty much have to let joba go and see what the results are.
the yankees invested one rotation spot last year to the development of joba as a starter. the results were, as you would expect, up and down. the joba rules impinged the results, too. now they have to let him go out without restrictions and show whether he’s going to fulfill the promise as a starter or not. whatever you think of phil as a starter / reliever, you have to let joba go out and show what he can do in a full season of starting or you’ve wasted all the time you’ve invested in the guy up to this point.
you have to look at phil as a separate issue. last year was a sidestep for him, due to the club’s needs. but this year is critical in his development. they have to find a place for him to start and to build up his innings. that may turn out to be starting in scranton until an opening occurs, or it could be as a long man in the majors until an opening occurs, but using him as a short man in the mlb bullpen would be a huge step back and should only be considered if all other options fail. in fact if they cant find a place for phil to start this season, they should consider trading him before his starting potential is completly lost.
however, i think this is a problem that is going to solve itself. openings in the rotation happen every year and this year will be no different and phil will get his shot to become a rotation regular this season. and i think it will be the beginning of a very long run as a yankees starter.
Betsy-
I understand what you are saying about Phil’s development but I hope he doesn’t feel disadvantaged in any competition with Joba.
the cream always rises to the top.
Phil’s confidence should be riding high after last year.
Argh. Totally meant to type “Phil to Scranton”!
I think the Yankees absolutly need a solid 7th inning guy. The starting pitching is good and later in the season we may regularly see CC or AJ go 7, but guys like Pettite even a Joba or Hughes will not go deep into games regularly and I think in games where the yankees have to battle like against the Red Sox its going to hurt them. I look at the free agent list and see guys like Jose Arredondo, Mike Macdougal Chan Ho Park, and Troy Precival who when healthy were very solid bullpen guys (health being the main issue). Im not an expert but i dont think any of these guys would need alot of money to sign to a one year deal and after loosing 2 arms like coke and bruney it may pay off having them when someone gets hurt or when games go into extras.
on another blog, someone was discussing Holliday and suggested the Cards sign him at $18M/Year and then Pujols at $20/M and year and they are set.
DOES ANYONE think Albert only goes for $20M/year? Dream world in St. Louis…
Tex-
Not a prayer.
Bottom line is that there are a lot of strong and talented arms in the system which only means that there will be intense competition for spots in the bullpen.
On Hughes/Chamberlin – I think these two are pretty equal with the early nod likely to go to Chamberlin because he has thrown more innings than Hughes and the Yankees have invested a lot in his being a starter so I think they will give him half a season to prove his value as a starter.
This is not bad news for Hughes or his supporters as starting in the bullpen will mean when (not if) the Yankees need to transition him to starter he will have more innings left in his arm at the end of the season. (If you do not believe the Yankees will need their number 6 starter just find the last time they used only 5 starters an any season.)
Now if you think what I have written is weak wait, I have one more and much weaker thought for a spot in the bullpen … IGAWA.
Now whatever I suggested prior to that is diminished because I used Igawa’s name and it wasn’t a joke. Here is my thinking:
1) Igawa has proven all he can prove in 3A (so maybe he is a 4A player, you won’t get an argument from me on that point);
2) The Yankees (at least in print) apparently had some sort of offer from a Japanese team for Igawa. The Yankees probably would have to pay part of his salary but whatever they got back would be some relief towards something be it Chapman or someone for LF or a reduction in overall expenses, whether it counts against the salary cap or not.
3) So my question is why didn’t the Yankees did not take that deal? Maybe they still see a place on the major league team for him. As a SWB Yankee he was a starter but maybe he can fill that 2nd left hander role out of the bullpen. That does sound a little like a 4A player.
My point is that I think the Yankees do need a second lefthander out of the bullpen and I think Igagwa (still) deserves a shot at it.
“DOES ANYONE think Albert only goes for $20M/year? Dream world in St. Louis…”
No, only RS players love their team enough to offer massive discounts.
YOu cannot put Joba back in the pen unless you intend to keep him there permanently. Changing his routine AGAIN would ruin him permanently.
With our luck, Albert Pujols will sign here. And he’ll show up on some list.
m-
if Phil does not secure the 5 spot after spring training (which he might be able to do) then the question becomes
How are the yankees better served with Phil ?
They are better served with him as a starter if possible in the long run.
What would make him a better starter ?
the bullpen or AAA ?
I think he needs to perfect that 3rd-4th pitch therefore I think he could benefit more by some AAA time to get that done.
He was amazing as a reliever last year though.
It’s not that easy of a decision.
JMHO.
Too much pitching is a nice dilemma to have, and as Ham Fighters points out, usually resolves itself. Phil has so much potential as a starter. I don’t think he was wasted in the pen last year, but this year he needs to pitch more innings. I see him as a starter at some point, even if it isn’t at the beginning of the season.
After all the “joba rules” nonsense, Joba also should be given a chance as a starter. Otherwise why go thru all that. He was up and down last year, as you would expect from a young pitcher.
With our luck, Albert Pujols will sign here. And he’ll show up on some list
___
How much would we have to fork over to have Pujols on our team, and moved to LF since we have Tex and ARod in the corners? $35M/year?
tex’s friend
January 4th, 2010 at 10:10 am
YOu cannot put Joba back in the pen unless you intend to keep him there permanently. Changing his routine AGAIN would ruin him permanently.
====
I agree. Let Hughes and Joba evolve as starters. Why these worthy young arms should be wasted in the BP is beyond me. Could the Yankees be that stupid? I wouldn’t think so. Until I hear one of them is becoming a BP lifer – and not headed there as a product of IC being reached (Hughes) or other circumstances – I’ll give the Yanks the benefit of the doubt.
“After all the “joba rules” nonsense,”
Why do you think that? He was coming off a serious shoulder injury.
How much would we have to fork over to have Pujols on our team, and moved to LF since we have Tex and ARod in the corners? $35M/year?
–
Pujols and Tex would more likely rotate DH.
the idea of a ST competition for the 5th starter spot sounds good but in fact there isnt going to be one. unless joba shows up completly out of shape, or is totally unable to get guys out in ST, he gets the #5 spot. their investment in him as a starter is too great to throw away because of a mediocre or even poor ST showing.
MTU,
If Robertson can take the 8th innning role, I think it’s possible.
Phil’s going to say “whatever I can do. I want to stay with the club”.
But it would’ve been really nice to have Hughes step into Wang’s role instead of Sergio Mitre last season.
We’ll have the same problem this season. If our 6th starter (Hughes) and 7th starter (Aceves) are both in the pen and serving key roles, who gets the emergency callup? Kennedy’s gone. Sergio? Gaudin? Where will they be? Will they be stretched out?
Phil’s development has taken a hit due to injuries and limited slots in the rotation. I’d like to see him at least approach the bicentenial mark.
Sergio Mitre – almost 2 yrs after TJ surgery, he is a sleeper and could help the Yanks as a back up starter or long man. Same with Aceves. Either 1 could be a 5th starter and then we have Joba and Phil in the bullpen. What a bullpen !
And Gaudin. He’s a nice commodity, but he’ll cost, too. I don’t care for the idea of paying him $2M to be the last guy in the bullpen in the postseason (haha). Put him to work.
If he’s the one with the rubber arm, let him be the Swiss Army knife of the bullpen. He can’t go more than 5 anyway and I like his presence on the mound.
Gau-gau-gaudin.
Happy New Year Everyone. Just catching up after being away…
Some how some way the Yankees need to keep both Joba and Phil on the big league club as starters #5 and #6. No sending either to AAA; they have done all that they can do there and the bests arms need to be on the big league club. Whom ever is the #6 just needs to be pitched at least 2 times a week for at least 2 innings to remain ready to step in when, not if, someone goes down. Neither of these guys should be used in the setup roll until late in the season. I know it worked out well with Phil last year but he is too valuable as a starter to repeat that in 2010.
“Sergio Mitre – almost 2 yrs after TJ surgery, he is a sleeper and could help the Yanks as a back up starter or long man. Same with Aceves. Either 1 could be a 5th starter and then we have Joba and Phil in the bullpen. What a bullpen !”
Where is the evidence that Mitre was ever good? His career ERA+ is 78!
Starters are more important than relievers. Why do you want better pitchers like Phil and Joba in the pen and inferior pitchers like Mitre and Aceves in the rotation?
If you put Phil and Joba in the pen, there is a chance that they will pitch like at least #3 starter as the seasons goes on. That would be invaluable.
another thing about joba, i have a feeling he is pumping iron and running in the nebraska snow and determined that he is going to show his doubters what he is really made of.
i think he is going to show up in the best shape of his life with steely determination and just blow people away. that fire we see from him in late inning situations will be turned upon the cloud of doubt that alot of people have thrust upon him and he will be determined to blow that away like a light-hitting 2nd baseman with the tying run on 3rd base.
look for the rebirth of the (leaner but still) large-and-in-charge joba this coming season.
I never thought Joba was out of shape.
m-
some of what you say is true.
Phil is on track for 160 or so innings this year i believe.
Not far from 200.
Gaudin will be available as a spot starter (if he aint traded).
For me, Edwar and mitre can disappear. i didn’t see enough from Mitre last year to want to see him taking up a roster spot.
I think Joba is gonna have a breakout year.
Same with Ace.
I think Ace has more potential as a starter than gaudin.
Nova and McAllister might surprise as starters.
I particularly like Z-mac.
Everything he done so far says Majors and soon.
He could be a callup at halftime if he does well.
Same with Nova.
We have el mucho depth.
Yanks Pen by Aug 1. Prediction – When it will matter
Mo
Hughes
Marte
D-Rob
Melancon
Logan
Aceves
If one of Joba or Phil goes to the pen – and barring an injury to one of the big four I guess that’s inevitable – I’d trade the one slated for the pen for a left fielder.
Whoever goes to the pen is never going to be a high value starter for the Yanks (in terms of production to salary), because he’ll be well into arbitration and close to free agency by the time (if ever) he becomes a 200+ IP starter.
As a reliever he won’t help as much as a decent left fielder would. I think you have to look into it if you are Cashman.
Rich,
What are you trying to say? You not buying into the out of shape excuse for his struggles? I myself think it’s difficult to believe that he wasn’t in shape at some point last year. But he could’ve hit a wall after being more of a reliever for a couple of years.
Patrick,
Happy New Year to you, too!
I wouldn’t be overly concerned about Hughes innings as a 2010 starter. He;ll go about 165-175 innings. I’ve never seen a #5 pitcher that stayed the entire season in that spot pitch much more innings than that, much less 200 innings.
m
Correct. I don’t think being in shape was an issue. I agree with Cone that he lacked arm strength as a result of the shoulder injury (he said it can take over a year to return), and that probably caused mechanical issues.
Wonder what plan B larussa was talking about on MLBtraderumors? Seems like there are only plan Cs and Ds left. Surely they are talking about Damon?
i dont know if joba was out of shape physically last season, but i do think he wasn’t locked-in in terms of his psyche, confidence and focus.
i think he is going to come in razor sharp this year.
Also, Huston Street is a free agent after 2010. He’s solid, young and AL-battle tested.
———————————————————
There are three guys in the 2010 FA class that I want the Yankees to pursue. In order of importance:
1. Cliff Lee (he can be Pettitte’s replacement)
2. Huston Street (Yanks need to begin investing for the post Rivera era)
3. Carl Crawford (he ends the search for a leftfielder)
Caveat: If either Joe Mauer or Albert Pujols hit free agency they go to the top of the list. If not save money this year to pursue Lee, Street and Crawford.
“If one of Joba or Phil goes to the pen – and barring an injury to one of the big four I guess that’s inevitable – I’d trade the one slated for the pen for a left fielder.”
Would you list some that you would consider worth Joba or Hughes, while keeping potential budgetary limitations in mind?
MTU,
Phil will only approach the bicentennial mark if he’s a starter, though.
Phil and Ace are starters. Plain and simple. I love Aceves’ efficiency. I hope he worked out this winter. Last winter was the first one he didn’t work out and it showed.
I think the Yankees have a certain degree of confidence in Robertson. Otherwise, I truly believe the Yankees would’ve dipped into the FA market. Or at least flirted with it.
Another thing, too, is maybe the Yankees liked what they saw out of Joba from the bullpen. If his velocity and command don’t show up soon maybe that’s the way to go.
Wave-
personally, i think Joba and Phil will both be starters by next year at the latest.
I’m guessing that AP and JV will both be gone next year and Yanks will target Cliff Lee.
That still leaves Joba and Phil in the rotation.
The only person I see as a potential reliever is Joba.
And that is only if he fails this year which I’m betting he wont.
next years rotation:
CC
AJ
CL
Joba
Phil
blake
It could be Damon or it could be posturing.
Hasn’t igawa been “ok” in the minors?
Hard to believe someone won’t take him for 20% on the dollar?
Why let him do nothing?
Somebody mentioned it on the previous post….
A.J. Burnett won us Game 2.
Without his Game 2 victory, we do not win the WS.
One WS alone is worth the 82.5 million he will get.
Rich-
Once Joba or Phil is sent to the pen, presumably for the season, their value to the Yanks will be significantly reduced, unfortunately.
There are a number of left fielders you could inquire into, some of whom are still cost controlled. It would probably take more than Joba or Phil, of course.
“Whom ever is the #6 just needs to be pitched at least 2 times a week for at least 2 innings to remain ready to step in when, not if, someone goes down”
patrick-
there’s no easy way to stretch out a reliever during the season. when the yankees did it with joba he had shoulder problems not long after.
if hughes , for example is sent to the bullpen and then needed as a starter , the smart way and safe way to do it is to send him to triple a to build up over 3-4 starts before coming back up.
i don’t really see a healthy way to do it at the mlb level.
i think if joba or hughes goes to the bullpen, another starter should become the 6th starter until joba or hughes could get properly stretched out at triple a.
m-
I love D-Rob.
if he can keep the walks down he’s awesome.
Phil at AAA vs. the Bullpen. I leave that one to the Yanks.
it’s a tough call.
Joba only hits the pen if he fails as a starter. They worked hard to get him to where he is, and he is extremely valuable if he can make it in that role.
He has four pitches and just needs to take it to the next level.
I think he can.
Wave Your Hat
I understand, although I disagree that their value would be reduced. I am just having trouble coming up with the cost controlled options you propose. That’s why I was wondering if you had any in mind.
MTU-
I can’t see the loser of the competition between Hughes and Chamberlain for the last starting spot being a 200+ IP starter for the Yanks before the 2012 season, at the earliest (barring a major injury to one of the pitchers ahead of him in line). Plus you have to think the Yanks are thinking about Cliff Lee for 2011.
AJ also won game 2 in the ALDS and ALCS
Here’s a question. We keep hearing how the yankees will get two picks for Javy Vazquez after the season. To get that, you have to offer arbitration. Isnt there a chance he accepts in order to get paid more than $11 M next year?
“Also, Huston Street is a free agent after 2010. He’s solid, young and AL-battle tested.”
You’d have to think Street will be looking to land someplace where he will be the closer. He’s probably looking at $6.5M-$7M in arb this year. Hard to imagine he won’t be seeking $9M-$10M in free agency. You envision the Yankees going that distance for a guy who would be Mo’s caddie? Especially when a guy like Hughes or Melancon may be able to do it for about 10% of that?
——————————————————–
Frank, there is no assurance that Mariano Rivera will return for 2011. I know that after the WS win, he claimed that he could pitch for 5 more years but if he starts to falter this season the Yankees absolutely must prepare themselves for life with Mo.
The Yankees currently have $29 million coming off the books after this season (salaries for Pettitte, Vazquez and Johnson). If Rivera retires, then another $15 million comes off the books. That should be enough to pursue Cliff Lee, Huston Steet and Carl crawford. If Rivera wants to come back for one more year, I’d still sign Street and find a way to save money elsewhere.
Who questioned Joba’s conditioning? I thought he was Andy’s workout partner last year? Running the Stadium concourse and staircases, etc…..
If Phil doesn’t make the rotation, I’d prefer to see him stay in routine and build innings even if that means going to Scranton.
If Joba doesn’t make the rotation, it could be time to end the starter/reliever debate and put him in the pen.
Blake-
A cards Yankee switcheroo ?
Damon to the Cards
MH to the Yanks.
awesome thought( just dreaming).
Going on the assumption that Austin Romine joins the Yanks and becomes the type of hitter (regardless of position), will Betsy enlist others in her army of Romine’s Legions?
Wave-
You didn’t read my post carefully.
I had CL penciled in for next year.
And phil can be sent to AAA for part of thge season instead of BP duty. it’s an option.
finally, in the 5 spot phil does not need to be a 200 inning pitcher.
Rich in NJ-
Cruz, Choo, Upton (unlikely I agree), Braun (unlikely as well), Span, Rivera, Pence, who knows?
It would take more than Joba or Phil, but I think you have to ask and I wonder if Cash already has.
pat,
Phil @ AAA is a tough pill to swallow. But it’s the right thing to do I think. And he could always come up late in the season as a reliever. Or he could win the job outright.
MTU-
The Yanks aren’t sending Phil to AAA, and his value would be even more reduced if they did. I think the Phil to AAA idea is one of the dumber ideas being kicked around, no offense to you personally meant.
It seems that market for Jose Valverde is weak due to his type A status.Yanks should sign him ,losing the 32nd pick in draft is not that big adeal and that draft money could go on Chapman a true #1pick.The addition of Valverde would give the yanks the best bullpen in baseball.
———————————————————-
I’m surprised that someone hasn’t snapped up Jose Valverde yet. If I didn’t want Huston Street (in next year’s FA class) then I wouldn’t mind picking up Valverde. I just don’t know if we can afford him (assuming that we are saving money for Cliff Lee, Huston Street and Carl Crawford) though.
option a for filling the presumed rotation openings next season (vazquez and pettitte) has to be joba and phil, so the plan for this season has to be to set that up.
joba will be in the rotation unless he’s injured no matter how ST goes.
phil has to be turned back into a starter. maybe he has nothing to ‘prove’ in aaa, but he does havee to get back into the habits and pitching patterns that he abandoned last year in the pen. and his innings have to be controlled, which can be done for the first couple of weeks at aaa.
ultimatly the plan has to be to see if phil and joba are the long term answers to the rotation that they have long been projected to be.
I also believe the rotation in 2011 will be CC,AJ, Lee, Joba, Hughes…
Wave-
I disagree. And I guess the Yankees will decide that.
“AJ also won game 2 in the ALDS and ALCS”
He didn’t actually. Pitched well in both, but was not around to get the win.
I think Cashman is looking at 2010 and beyond and breaking 1 young pitcher into the rotation at a time might be the prudent way to go. Therefore, the Vasquez signing.
Joba or Phil get their bearings as a starter in 2010 surrounded by a veteran core. The other gets the nod in 2011.
We can agree that a frontline starter is more important than an EIG right? Hughes will not become a frontline starter out of the bullpen.
Hughes to AAA may be dumb, but it is the ONLY way to assure he is ready to start when the time comes.
M, you say you want to develop Joba and Phil as starters and then you suggest they put Phil in the pen again. Doing so will further delay his development – he’s already behind the eight ball as is.
Wave Your Hat
“Cruz, Choo, Upton (unlikely I agree), Braun (unlikely as well), Span, Rivera, Pence, who knows?”
Nelson Cruz? No way.
Choo. I wouldn’t give up what they’d want.
Span? The Yankees would need power from an OF.
Juan Rivera? No way.
Pence. He’s good, but not good enough.
I’ll stick.
I want to see Phil learn to throw a splitter but any effective changeup will do.
Betsy,
That was a mistake.
m
January 4th, 2010 at 10:07 am
Argh. Totally meant to type “Phil to Scranton”!
If there is indeed a contest to determine which of hughes/Chamberlain goes to the pen and the ST contest is equal, it’s Chamberlain that’s better suited for the pen, much in the same manner as Gossage was…stomping out of the pen and breathing fire. He has the demeanor of a closer. He’d have the ability to throw fastball after fastball and then make them cry with that slider.
“The Yanks aren’t sending Phil to AAA, and his value would be even more reduced if they did.”
His value to who?
If the plan is for him to be part of the Yankees 2011 starting rotation, what value are you concerned about?
“Frank, there is no assurance that Mariano Rivera will return for 2011. I know that after the WS win, he claimed that he could pitch for 5 more years but if he starts to falter this season the Yankees absolutely must prepare themselves for life with Mo.”
Certainly, my point on Street assumes the premise that Rivera will be back.
Something could change, but right now it does not seem like Mo or the Yankees are preparing to part ways. If not, then Street is probably not going to be a factor in the Yankees next offseason.
GB7
But Gossage was a closer and the Yankees may not have an opening at closer for a year or two. If at that time D-Rod or Melancon or whomever haven’t shown they can close, then you can move Joba if he isn’t at least a #2.
M1kew, having Phil in the pen (unless as a long man) makes zero sense. He won’t be using all his pitches, he won’t be going through lineups more than once and he won’t be available to make spot starts. Stretching him out takes time…….and then to put him back in the pen? It’s a terrible way to treat an arm. There are some things I’m thinking about the Yankees right now that I just won’t post here, but suffice to say they are not positive.
MTU, it’s a very easy decision – I completely disagree. I almost wish Phil would be traded at this time because he’s not a baby and I want to see him live up to his potential. I don’t think he’s going to get that chance with the Yankees……
I find it disturbing that Chad would be okay with the idea of Joba or Phil in the bullpen.
Rich in NJ
January 4th, 2010 at 10:53 am
Pence. He’s good, but not good enough.
I’ll stick.
————————————————————
Good enough for what?
Pence won’t be available anytime soon, but, who in the world would want a high average, power hitting corner outfielder with speed and a very good arm and glove?
GB7
“Pence won’t be available anytime soon, but, who in the world would want a high average, power hitting corner outfielder with speed and a very good arm and glove?”
For Hughes or Joba (which was WYH’s point), not me.
Ham, so Phil gets screwed because the Yankees decided to put him in the pen last year? Let’s face it – the Yankees have treated Joba like he’s their crown jewel and Phil like he’s Ian Kennedy. If the Yankees don’t want to take the time to develop Phil properly as a starter, then they should have traded him for Cliff Lee or whomever.
Rich in NJ
January 4th, 2010 at 10:57 am
GB7
But Gossage was a closer and the Yankees may not have an opening at closer for a year or two. If at that time D-Rod or Melancon or whomever haven’t shown they can close, then you can move Joba if he isn’t at least a #2.
————————————————————
Closing out the 8th inning is just as important as closing out the 9th. He could also pitch 2 innings if needed.
A quick clarification on my thoughts of PH as an interim reliever:
If they send him ot the minors where he has nothing to prove all he does is waste innings. As to getting him ready to start after time in the BP all that means is two weeks of extending his innings. In that case he would start and pitch 4 innings, then 5 innings and then 6 innings in two weeks as a starter. Gaudin/Mitre and others would add innings on top of his and then in week 3 you have a starter who can go 6 or more innings whenever he starts.
This may be old news, so forgive me, but somebody just told me that David Cone will not be returning to the YES booth. Is this true? Very disappointing if it is.
the idea that the development of phil and joba as starters is going to turn on how ST goes is laughable. joba IS the #5, period.
what they do with phil is the question, and i’m confident that he will not be considered for short man duties until and unless all other options fail (during the season, not in ST), and then only if a rotation spot hasnt opened up yet. and when has that ever happened that we go through a season with only the 5 starters we had going into ST.
If Vasquez accepted arbitration then the Yanks could trade him to someone else. Of course if he sucks, then maybe he would just be released. IMO, I think his value will be pretty high after 2010. I also believe Andy Pettite could end up in the BP as a LH specialist before the year is over with both Hughes & Joba in the rotation. Just a thought.
Rich in NJ
January 4th, 2010 at 11:03 am
GB7
“Pence won’t be available anytime soon, but, who in the world would want a high average, power hitting corner outfielder with speed and a very good arm and glove?”
For Hughes or Joba (which was WYH’s point), not me.
————————————————————
Depends on what corner outfield Yankee needs are and what they have in reserve to replace one of the pitchers, but, I’d certainly think about it.
Frank- how about if I change that comment to “AJ pitched good enough to get the wins in all the game 2s he pitched in”
IMO the Yankees have a plan to have both Joba and Phil as starters eventually.
GB7
“Closing out the 8th inning is just as important as closing out the 9th. He could also pitch 2 innings if needed.”
I believe in the power of market economics. With that in mind, if your proposition is true, why do setup relievers only get a small fraction of what closers get?
GB, I’m not having success with recruits for AJ’s Army, so I doubt I’ll have success with Romine’s Legion (VERY good, lol)
Wave, I completely disagree. Phil to AAA is a great idea – it’s the only thing that makes sense if he’s not the #5 starter.
GB7
“Depends on what corner outfield Yankee needs are and what they have in reserve to replace one of the pitchers, but, I’d certainly think about it.”
I wouldn’t. As Cash says, you can never have enough pitching, and that has proved to be true in recent seasons. Pence isn’t a difference maker.
If Vasquez accepted arbitration then the Yanks could trade him to someone else. Of course if he sucks, then maybe he would just be released. IMO, I think his value will be pretty high after 2010. I also believe Andy Pettite could end up in the BP as a LH specialist before the year is over with both Hughes & Joba in the rotation. Just a thought.
___
I dont see Pettitte ending up in the bullpen unless he gets hurt early in the season and Hughes replaces him and shuts everyone down.
it will work out somehow.
Mkew, what exactly would the point be of stretching Phil out unless a pitcher suffers such a serious injury that he’s out for a month or two? If he’s only going to miss a couple of starts, Phil won’t be able to get stretched out in time to make those spot starts……..
“For Hughes or Joba (which was WYH’s point), not me.”
If it served a need, say left field for example, I’d consider it. Why not? Pence is a terrific talent, young and coming up for arb the same time Hughes and Chamberlain are.
If the 8th inning pitcher tends to blow leads, there’s not a lot of need for a closer, is there? Ask Washington, Toronto and Tampa, to name a few.
Betsy-
If Phil is simply to serve as an insurance policy, which is what AAA would mean, he’s not worth that much to the Yanks. He’d be worth a lot more to some other team, which is why the Yanks should trade him rather than pursue that particular scenario.
He won’t progress in AAA – it’s some notion of keeping him “stretched out”. He’d be worth much more to the Yanks this year as the set-up man instead, which is IMO the only realistic scenario if he doesn’t start.
But as I said before, I’d look into trading him. I’d trade him and more for any of those guys I listed above.
“If it served a need, say left field for example, I’d consider it. Why not? Pence is a terrific talent, young and coming up for arb the same time Hughes and Chamberlain are.”
I don’t think their arbitration salaries will be unmanageable for the deep pocketed Yankees, plus I have a conviction that they will be top of the rotation starters. I wouldn’t trade that for anything less than in package for a Hanley Ramirez or Josh Johnson type of player.
“Frank- how about if I change that comment to “AJ pitched good enough to get the wins in all the game 2s he pitched in””
You’d be right on the money, Kate.
Betsy – Romine wasn’t built in a day
January 4th, 2010 at 11:09 am
GB, I’m not having success with recruits for AJ’s Army, so I doubt I’ll have success with Romine’s Legion (VERY good, lol)
————————————————————
Just make yourself Empress Betsy Caesar and draft them.
GB7
“If the 8th inning pitcher tends to blow leads, there’s not a lot of need for a closer, is there? Ask Washington, Toronto and Tampa, to name a few.”
Maybe you do believe in Moneyball principles.
Betsy-
IMHO. It’s not such an easy decision.
Pluses and minuses on both sides.
Believe me…NYYs are getting to the point where they have more good young pitching than makes sense to keep. Two years ago, that wasn’t the case. It makes no sense to keep good young arms stashed away and watch them rot on the vine. as long as nothing changes about how they are able to sign these arms by paying over slot or on the IFA market, they’ll always have those young arms to trade.
You guys can talk Hudson Street all you want… I prefer to remain in denial..Mo will pitch forever!
wave, your premise goes wrong when you assume that the yankees wont need a 6th starter, which you imply when you dismiss aaa as an ‘insurance policy’ some insurance policies, such as life insurance, are certain to be needed and a 6th starter is an inevitability.
also, phil had to completly change pitching patterns and workout routines to conform to the bp, and needs to get back into the starter’s routine, and as just about everyone has mentioned, he needs to bust out the secondary pitches which were on the shelf last season and work on them as they werent completly developed when he came up.
when people say phil has nothing to prove in aaa, they are right in terms of success, but that doesnt mean that phil wont benefit greatly from a month or 6 weeks in aaa before taking a rotation turn, which will come.
Rich in NJ
January 4th, 2010 at 11:17 am
GB7
“If the 8th inning pitcher tends to blow leads, there’s not a lot of need for a closer, is there? Ask Washington, Toronto and Tampa, to name a few.”
Maybe you do believe in Moneyball principles.
————————————————————
No..I believe in protecting a lead for as long as possible and leaving very little to chance.
GB7
“Believe me…NYYs are getting to the point where they have more good young pitching than makes sense to keep.”
IF they get to the point of redundancy in both position and ability, then fine, makes some moves to fill holes with comparable talents. I don’t see the Joba/Phil-like talents that are ML ready yet.
GB7
“No..I believe in protecting a lead for as long as possible and leaving very little to chance.”
My point is that you think that setup relievers are undervalues assets.
Good morning, all –
1. We and the Yankees should be so lucky that both Joba and Phil are lights-out impressive in ST and the season. My feeling is that Phil would get the nod as starter in that case, but who knows.
I think Randy brings up a good point about how they should stretch out whomever goes to the pen, doing it over 3-4 starts in the minors, while someone else steps up for those starts. This would be a reason to keep Nova and McAllister in the AAA rotation, to provide that depth while Joba/Phil stretches out.
2. Hi, GB7 – how are you doing this fine morning? Is your recovery going well?
Ham Fighters-
Even if all you say were true, and I’d debate a lot of it, but if it were true, having Hunter Pence would be more valuable to the Yanks if we could get him, which we probably couldn’t anyway.
Wave, Phil would be in AAA to help prepare him to be a starter, not to just be an insurance policy for this year.
I don’t think their arbitration salaries will be “unmanageable for the deep pocketed Yankees, plus I have a conviction that they will be top of the rotation starters.”
Probably not the Astros either. Just one step closer to FA is all. I’m not sold on either guy as a top of the rotation guy. Pretty good #2, really good #3 is what I see at this point…if things work out well. Neither guy alone brings a Josh Johnson/Hanley Ramirez type IMO. Either of them brings a Pence.
I hear your difference maker argument, but to this point in their respective careers, none of the three guys we’re talking about are difference makers and only one has been an allstar. The allstar’s name is neither Phil nor Joba.
MTU, we’ll have to disagree. If the Yankees want Phil to be a set up man, then they have just wasted a ton of talent and they should have traded him.
i disagree that pence in LF would be a better long term value than and effective phil in the rotation. maybe for this season but not in the long term. bear in mind that having 2/5 of the rotation cost-controlled over the next few years would free up alot of money to fill the LF spot. and i always consider a SP more valuable than an OF, as good SP is a much scarcer commodity than an OF.
Joe from Long Island
January 4th, 2010 at 11:27 am
Good morning, all –
1. We and the Yankees should be so lucky that both Joba and Phil are lights-out impressive in ST and the season. My feeling is that Phil would get the nod as starter in that case, but who knows.
I think Randy brings up a good point about how they should stretch out whomever goes to the pen, doing it over 3-4 starts in the minors, while someone else steps up for those starts. This would be a reason to keep Nova and McAllister in the AAA rotation, to provide that depth while Joba/Phil stretches out.
2. Hi, GB7 – how are you doing this fine morning? Is your recovery going well?
————————————————————
Morning, joe. hope you and the family had a wonderful holiday…snow isn’t too deep to send the little buggers back to school where they belong and your booss told you that you were being retired with a $50 mil settlement.
Yeah, I’m back to feeling like myself….cantankerous and nasty.
“I hear your difference maker argument, but to this point in their respective careers, none of the three guys we’re talking about are difference makers and only one has been an allstar. The allstar’s name is neither Phil nor Joba.”
This pitcher doesn’t look like a difference maker to you?
2008 starts
6/3 95.24 2.1 IP
6/8 96.22 4.1 IP
6/13 94.57 6 IP
6/19 95.12 5.2 IP
6/25 95.34 6.2 IP
7/1 94.81 4 IP
7/6 94.94 6 IP
7/11 94.79 6.2
7/19 95.22 6 IP
7/25 95.51 7 IP
7/30 94.86 6 IP
8/4 94.80 4.2 IP (shoulder injury)
And what was Phil as the8th inning reliever? Many people think he saved the Yankees’ season.
Betsy – Romine wasn’t built in a day
January 4th, 2010 at 11:12 am
“Mkew, what exactly would the point be of stretching Phil out unless a pitcher suffers such a serious injury that he’s out for a month or two? If he’s only going to miss a couple of starts, Phil won’t be able to get stretched out in time to make those spot starts……..”
You make a good point. I avoided talking about injuries to any of the starters because I guess I am a little superstitious. I do not want to jinx anyone but being practical starters do go down (Petitte or AJ?). Or prove to be ineffective (Joba?). Those possibilities exist. I was thinking that Phil work in the BP until that times happens and continue the balance of the season as a starter but the weakness of my argument is that the injured starter returns. Then I guess Phil returns to the BP. If on the other hand it turns out that Joba cannot handle starting as a lot of people here believe (not me) then he moves to the BP (probably permanently) and Phil gets his starting position.
I do think (and hope) that both are starters in 2011 by which time I believe Andy Pettitte will have retired. Whether Vazquez is resigned or the Yankees sign a free agent (CL?) in 2011 is moot at this time. Let the season play out and then we can see what the options are.
But wouldn’t it be great if CC, AJ, PH, JC are the core and either Vazquez or Lee is in the same rotation? (I assume price and length of contract in addition to how Vazquez performs will be deciding factors.)
I see that some are suggesting sending Phil Hughes down to the minor leagues this season if Joba beats him out for the 5th spot in the rotation. That leads me to wonder if the Yankees can send Hughes down. If I remember correctly, the Yankees couldn’t send Chin Mieng Wang down to the minors this season because it was his 4th year up in the majors. So they called his visit to the minors a “rehab” (a 30 day limit). I’m thinking that Phil Hughes is now in his 4th year on the major league roster and can’t be sent down either. Can anyone clarify that for me.
I don’t think the Yankees see Hughes as a reliever but they had a need last year and he filled it. The Yankees may not have won the World Series if he hadn’t stepped up the way he did in the setup role.
Red Sox
•Acquired/Re-signed: Tim Wakefield, Jeremy Hermida, Robert Manuel, Tug Hulett, Marco Scutaro, Scott Atchison, Fabio Castro, Ramon A. Ramirez, Boof Bonser, John Lackey, Mike Cameron, Stephen Fox, Nate Spears, Fernando Cabrera, Bob McCrory, Edwin Moreno, Angel Sanchez, Darnell McDonald, Michael Lennox, Wang-Yi Lin, Juan Bonifacio, Roberto Feliz, Gil Velazquez, Jose Iglesias, Jason Varitek, Victor Martinez
•Lost: Chris Carter, Takashi Saito, George Kottaras, Billy Wagner, Jason Bay, Hunter Jones, Jose Alvarez, Joey Gathright, Alex Gonzalez, Brian Anderson, Chris Province, Jorge Jimenez, Armando Zerpa, Jeff Bailey, Javier Lopez
Yankees
•Acquired/Re-signed: Andy Pettitte, Jamie Hoffmann, Curtis Granderson, Mike Rivera, Boone Logan, Javier Vazquez, Nick Johnson, Javier Herrera, Jon Weber, Trent Lockwood
•Lost: Josh Towers, Hideki Matsui, Brian Bruney, Ian Kennedy, Austin Jackson, Phil Coke, Arodys Vizcaino, Melky Cabrera, Michael Dunn, Kanekoa Texeira, Cody Ransom
from: mlbtr
——————–
Erin,
We read that he won’t be coming back because of a blowup with YES in a mtg or something like that. But a YES executive said in an e-mail that it depends on what Coney wants to do. Certainly doesn’t sound like they slammed the door. We’ve seen YES let people go for lesser offenses (or none at all), so who knows. We was a good one, though. Do we have to flood the YES inboxes with protests?
Last year it was reported that Phil would rather stay with the ML team in the pen rather than go back to AAA. How much of a say does he, the player, have in this?
Reading all of the posts, it would seem like Phil will probably start the year in AAA unless someone is not healthy coming out of ST.
I hope the kid can be convinced that he is more valuable to the team working at AAA as a starter for the first months of the season.
Someone will go down and Phil will get starts for sure.
Betsy-
no problem.
I’ve still got that snowblower and blanket if you need them.
I think Abe Peterham may be on to something with Igawa. Why not eat half of his salary then deal him to the Washington Gnats for Bruney ?
Joe, I don’t get it. What would be the point of stretching Phil out if other pitchers have to make those spot starts anyway. The Yankees have no business treating his arm like it’s made of rubber.
haha, this isn’t the NBA where you have wink-wink deals to send players away and then reacquire them after 30 days.
I was shocked to see GB7 suggest we trade for Melky. And Bruney, too, IIRC.
There’s a reason those players aren’t still with the Yankees. I think for Melky, they were able to move an arbitration guy. For Bruney, could be questions of health and attitude.
People mourn the loss of Tabata and, less so, Austin Jackson. But otherwise, Cash has done a nice job of trimming the rosters.
m
January 4th, 2010 at 11:34 am
Erin,
We read that he won’t be coming back because of a blowup with YES in a mtg or something like that. But a YES executive said in an e-mail that it depends on what Coney wants to do. Certainly doesn’t sound like they slammed the door. We’ve seen YES let people go for lesser offenses (or none at all), so who knows. We was a good one, though. Do we have to flood the YES inboxes with protests?
**********************
Thanks, m. Very interesting. I’d hate to see him go-he’s one of my favorites. I’m all for a protest!
Hughes only has one option year left and they aren’t likely to waste it foolishly. Chamberlain still has 4.
Frank, what exactly are you judging Phil on? A bad month of August in 2007 when he wasn’t healthy? He rebounded great in September and October. 2008 when he was clearly not right? Phil showed some terrific promise last year, but then he was sent to the pen. He has not ever had a real chance to show what he could do……I think you’re underestimating him (and Joba too, though if Joba doesn’t do well this year as a starter, I’d be more inclined to agree with you).
m-
Cashman would do well to make Edwar and Mitre disappear also.
2 more roster spots.
Hughes only has one option year left and they aren’t likely to waste it foolishly. Chamberlain still has 4.
–
Use it this year, next year Hughes should be equipped to pitch 200 innings. And should be part of the rotation.
We know we’re losing AP and JV next season, so we need 2 starters at least, and if Joba does well and Hughes does well it’d be nice to know they have 2 spots covered. That’d mean they could sign a guy like Cliff Lee or King Felix.
6/3 95.24 2.1 IP
6/8 96.22 4.1 IP
6/13 94.57 6 IP
6/19 95.12 5.2 IP
6/25 95.34 6.2 IP
7/1 94.81 4 IP
7/6 94.94 6 IP
7/11 94.79 6.2
7/19 95.22 6 IP
7/25 95.51 7 IP
7/30 94.86 6 IP
8/4 94.80 4.2 IP (shoulder injury)
Not sure what I’m to take from this, Rich. This is a 65 inning sample over which a little better than 5 IP per start were accumulated. I understand there were circumstances to that, but that was nonetheless the case. Not sure why the small sample you cited is any less significant than a more recent 68 inning sample I like to call the 2nd half of 2009, in which he posted a 5.40 ERA, a 1.55 WHIP and featured less velocity, more walks and fewer K’s?
I cannot imagine Hughes or Joba in Scranton and I’m not even sure it’s an option.
Obviously the Yanks have decided that Joba or Phil will strengthen the bullpen for 2010 and that’s they way it’s going to be. Should one of the starters go down for an extended period they can begin stretching out whichever guy is in the pen.
Not an ideal situation, but not deadly.
MTU you are more than a little late to understanding the new way the Yanks are operating. They behaved the same way last year when the went with a piece-meal approach to the back end of the rotation.
They aren’t slashing payroll to fatten their pockets. They are showing fiscal restraint to keep long term flexibility and the total payroll relatively flat while continuing to field one of the best teams in the game.
I prefer this to the methods the 2001-08 era when it was nothing but big money solutions and we threw away guys like Ted Lilly and Javier Vasquez.
Here is the bullpen that could work – assuming eight in the pen:
Mariano- closer
Joba- eigth inning
Robertson/Marte- mix match 7th/8th
Aceves- 6th/7th/long relief/spot starter
Gaudin- long relief/spot starter
Logan- 5-7th innings as 2nd lefty reliever specilaist
Melancon- righty specialist
Rotation:
CC
Burnett
Andy
Vasquez
Hughes
*MORE or less significant
m
January 4th, 2010 at 11:42 am
I was shocked to see GB7 suggest we trade for Melky. And Bruney, too, IIRC
————————————————————
Actually, I was against those players being traded. I was also against Coke getting moved. If Cabrera was only going to be a 4th outfielder, then, it’s best he goes, because he’s not real good after sitting for stretches. Gardner is a better option as a 4th outfielder, but, not as a starter. No way would I trade Bruney for a maybe/someday Rule 5 like Hoffmann.
86-
Let’s not get personal. I was just stating my opinion.
that’s all.
And I guess we’ll have agree to disagree on the Yankees and their “new Model”.
It may even be the reality doesn’t mean i have to like it.
GB7,
I was more shocked that you suggest we trade back for them. I don’t see that happening.
You know it wasn’t an easy decision, and yet they did it. Bruney for a guy that probably won’t stick on the 25? Shows you what they thought of him. Cold, but that’s business. Bruney rose from the ashes of the Phoenix scrap heap and resurrected his career with the Yankees. I think it was good, though chaotic at times, while it lasted.
MTU, you might need to loan them to me for this winter as it’s off to a chilly and snowy start, lol
Jerkface
January 4th, 2010 at 11:47 am
Hughes only has one option year left and they aren’t likely to waste it foolishly. Chamberlain still has 4.
–
Use it this year, next year Hughes should be equipped to pitch 200 innings. And should be part of the rotation.
We know we’re losing AP and JV next season, so we need 2 starters at least, and if Joba does well and Hughes does well it’d be nice to know they have 2 spots covered. That’d mean they could sign a guy like Cliff Lee or King Felix.
————————————————————
Hughes would be ready to pitch 200 innings in 2010 anyway, by innings progression.
There’s no need for a 5th start to go 200 innings this year. No team has ever had one.
Betsy-
Damn El nino (and no I don’t mean pena).
Hey Yanks fans –
Text Jeter to 64444 to win a DJ signed baseball…and no, this is not spam…just a market-research study with a good prize for the winner.
i think that when it all shakes down, perhaps not this year but next, Hughes will start and joba will be in the Pen.
alsi, i have complete faith in girardi to figure out the bullpen. i think his greatest strength is the bullpen and giving guys confidence and putting them in situations where they will succeed. the last 2 years the yankees have had really good bullpens. and Mariano obviously is a tremendous part of that.
Look at kyle farnsworth. with Torre he was awful, had no confidence. girardi showed trust in him and gave him a real shot and he really turned his game around the last month and a half before he was traded.
“Not sure why the small sample you cited is any less significant than a more recent 68 inning sample I like to call the 2nd half of 2009,”
Because he hasn’t regained full arm strength and velo from the shoulder injury. Cone thinks he will this season.
m
January 4th, 2010 at 11:52 am
GB7,
I was more shocked that you suggest we trade back for them. I don’t see that happening.
————————————————————
I didn’t say it would happen, but, they’d certainly fill the remaining needs that NYY has.
Betsy:
Didn’t exactly say something bad about the kid. Said he’s a #2 or really high end #3 starter. If I were to let his 28 MLB starts be my guide, I’m not sure I’d be so generous, but he’s shown enough in spots both as a starter and reliever to believe he has the poise and stuff to be a very solid pitcher. I don’t think he’s ever going to be Lincecum or Sabathia, but not many are. Doesn’t mean I’m convinced he stinks. I’d prefer to see him as the #5 to Joba.
January 4th, 2010 at 9:45 am
“I do agree that a starter is worth much more than a reliever, but I think Joba may be the closer of the future if Rivera ever slows down”
_______________________________
Rich in NJ says….Even assuming that you are right about the future, why does it makes sense to put Joba in the pen now if he can be the starter he was in June and July of 2008? That kind of starter is worth more than a closer, and far, far more than an 8th inning reliever.
=================
Ifyou can get an ERA of 3.50 it is worth a lot more than a closer or setup guy, but that is a big if considering after those months he was lit up like a Christmas tree. Joba could be a decent starter, how good is tough to tell, but he has the closer mentality. Hughes has more starter pitches. I know it was only one year, but Joba averaged 5 innings per start and an ERA of 4.84, my concern is that you take what many of us thought to be a star after his rookie year and make him into a run of the mill 3rd or 4th starter.
My take is that I would let Hughes work his way through starting and see what a year in the pen for Joba would do.
Unfortunately the Yanks screwed up last year. that guy I have been mentioning who has his blog said that the Yankees should have just started one in the pen and one in the rotation and then swapped at the all star break and you wouldn’t have needed to do anything else, but the Yanks screwed that up.
From Prior Thread:
Rich in NJ:
“The upshot of your point is that the ability to scout all prospects is the same, which makes no sense. The Igawa signing was sui generis with regard to how the Yankees operate.
Similarly, the Yankees didn’t forbear on signing CC or AJ merely because their judgment about Pavano was a mistake, and they didn’t let the money they spent on Pavano (which was similar to what the spent on Igawa), affect their decision to spend money on them.
Do you honestly believe the Yankees don’t understand the concept of sunk costs?”
———————————
Rich, sorry I’m getting back to you late. Had to take care of what I’m an expert at, which is my business, not the Yankees.
Anyway, regarding your response, frankly I have no idea what ‘sui generis’ is, so why don’t you break it down for us lowly non-latin speaking folk. My point was that Igawa had some good years in Japan. DO NOT interpret this as my supporting or even liking him, but understand that my not liking him has to do with his production since crossing the pond. Had he been lights out, why wouldn’t I like a stiketout throwing lefty? Fact is though, he stunk.
If you feel that George S was the mover and shaker behind that decison, then I’ll just respectfully disagree and leave it at that. Lots of scouts thought he would have been a better than average middle of the rotation pitcher. Oh well it happens.
My point remains buddy. Unless you see international players over a protracted period of time, you’re taking a helluva risk. Chapman is just such a risk. May be worth it, but understand the risk and don’t come bellyaching 4 years from now if he doesn’t pan out. OK?
MTU —
How the hell could you take what I wrote as personal? All I said is you are late to the game in terms of understanding what the Yanks have been doing for two years now. There’s nothing to agree or disagree about where that’s concerned, it’s a fact. You may disagree them doing it, but it’s what they’ve been doing for a while now.
ArtieA —
13 pitchers? No sir. It’ll probably be 12 but it should only be 11 with four established high inning guys in the rotation.
love it when someone who’s never posted on here tells you to text somewhere, “but its not spam”
…sure buddy…
86-
I was reacting to you telling me what I do or dont understand.
that’s all.
Let’s drop it.
DaSaint007
Sorry, it’s the lawyer in me. It means in a class by itself.
To sum up my point, velo in baseball is like location in real estate, the better it is, the more valuable the asset. Chapman has it to the max, Igawa lacked it.
So Bay to the Mets is official. Is this the most underwhelming deal in history? Wonder how Mets fans feel? And how Jason Bay feels?
I, for one, am delighted that he won’t be bothering us but 6 games a season.
joba cannot get out of the 5th inning consistently i dont see how that is more valueable than a high quality set up man
If velocity is all there is, I’m happy that nobody told Whitey Ford and Greg Maddux that they had no chance. They’d probably be stuck at being lawyers or journalists all of these years.
The Bay signing with the Mets really hurt the Sox. Think about it, they’ve gone from the best 3/4 punch in baseball a few years ago to no true cleanup hitter. They still have an impressive group of ‘complimentary’ hitters, but no real ‘bangers’. Their home/road splits should be even worse this year (and I guess that makes me happy!)…
GB&
“If velocity is all there is, I’m happy that nobody told Whitey Ford and Greg Maddux that they had no chance. They’d probably be stuck at being lawyers or journalists all of these years.”
I didn’t say that it was all there is, but it offers a very good window on a pitcher’s ceiling.
My response to Guru Man keeps getting eated.
If only Steve Dalkowski had known that he could make it on speed alone. All the speed in the world doesn’t help if the pitcher has no idea where the plate is. I’ll take a pitcher that can move the ball around and throw it where he wants over a 102 MPH pitcher without a clue, any day. I’d take a 2008 and back over a CM Wang over a 2009 Joba Chamberlain or Joel Zumaya’s 101 MPH heater any time.
12 pitchers is probably right in the end..someone will go down..so it looks like Melancon wont make the team unless you only go with Aceves for long relief-drop Gaudin or you don’t bring Logan to the Pen. Personally I like when we have two lefties in the Pen. Gives Joe more flexibility.
Assuming no significant health concerns, expect Sabathia, Burnett, Pettitte, and Vasquez will be close or over 200 innings of work.
The 5th starter will likely see no more than 150 innings of work.
Definitely good for the Yanks that the Sawx lost Bay. Will be interesting to see if they try to get Beltre on a one-year deal. If so, Lowell becomes a very expensive reserve.
Thoughts on the pen:
1) It was Cashman’s plan all along to get younger/cheaper organizational arms to fill out the pen. I’ll mark that as a mission accomplished.
2) We’ve certainly got a number of power arms ready to fill in.
3) I really don’t understand the fascination with Edwar Ramierez. I guess he either makes it this year or is traded/released.
4) Joba/Phil to the pen still seems like a real waste to me but I can’t really justify sending the loser down to AAA. Perhaps I wouldn’t feel this way if Mo got hurt. Thinking ‘out loud’ about it, if Mo goes down our best option would be Joba/Marte to replace him with Joba taking on the full role of closer once he proves he can handle the pressure of being the guy to get the last out…
2/17-P&C report
2/18-First workout
2/24-1st full squad workout
3/3-PIT@NYY
Can’t wait for P&C (44 days). When do the spring invites go out?
I can’t believe Spring Training is next month !!
Didn’t we just win the World Series !. Goodness !
Continuing my thought process…I guess it makes sense to put Joba in the pen considering our closer is 40 years old, unless we think Robertson or Melancon is the future closer.
“But a YES executive said in an e-mail that it depends on what Coney wants to do. ”
Translation: He wants more money than YES is willing to spend.
“Which brings me to the topic I wanted to discuss today. Why did the Yankees bring in Javy? Why not go with Joba and Hughes as your 4/5?”
IIRC, no team in baseball last year used fewer than 7 starters last year.
There really is not such thing as a 5 man rotation. A 5 man rotation is only a temporary arrangement.
That’s why they traded for Javy.
The primary effect of having Vazquez will be to decrease the number of innings a pitcher like Gaudin/Mitre/ Aceves will need to throw as starters.
Getting Vazquez knocks Gaudin/Mitre/Aceves out of the rotation more than it does Hughes/ Joba.
The 6th starter is going to get innings inside of the rotation – as long as that individual is kept stretched out.
Erin
January 4th, 2010 at 9:31 am
So I’m back at work today for the first time since Dec. 23. I’m having a very hard time keeping my eyes open. I’m hoping the Yankees do something to day-maybe that will give me some energy.
**********
Were you watching the WS Marathon on MLB.tv? I dipped into it from time to time, then watched the whole of Game 6….that would account for the lack of energy!
Cheers!
bay is a good sign for the mets, they are desparate for power and a corner OF. they need SP more, but that doesnt mean they didnt need power.
we tend to dismiss everything the mets do as a joke on here, but give them some credit, they stood thier ground on 4 years and offered just enough above the red sock’s offer he rejected to make it palateble for him to take it. they didnt give in to the 5th year and they didnt bid against themselves.
because they are so heavily invested in beltran, reyes and wright, all of whom had down/injury seasons, there is little they can do on offense but hope that they come back healthy and bay gives them the power boost they needed.
starting pitching is a different story and there seems to be little hope for them in this area, although they have the possibility of a very strong bp
If it is Hughes as #5, why not set up a “tag team” scenario with Joba where they each are pre-slotted to pitch half the game? Just don’t publicize it, and it could work out fine. Most of the issues with the ‘Rules’ were because Joe G kept telling the media what they were gonna do.
re: Venditte – I think AA will be a good test for his viability this year. His lefty stuff is probably too hittable as is. Someone teach that kid how to throw a knuckleball! Those do fine at 80 MPH.
pat -
Revenue sharing versus luxury tax. I finally got it straight where they come from – now, I’ll have to work on remembering where it goes to! Thanks for the reminder.
So, what does that do to my statement? The tax still has a real impact on the budget. I still can’t blame them for wanting to keep that impact as minimal as possible.
I’m stuck at being a lawyer. No velocity, no command and, in fact, no ability.
I have no clue whether Chapman will be successful. If the Yankee scouts think he will, then I think they need to use their financial clout to get him. A 21 year old top of the line prospect, if he is one, doesn’t come the Yankees way very often.
Aw, CB. You’re really throwing water on my theory that the Yankees secretly want to move Joba to the bullpen theory.
Of course you’re right. We need more starters. So this is what I feel the starting depth should be:
-CC
-AJ
-Andy
-Javy
-Joba
-Phil
-Aceves
-Gaudin/Mitre
-Mitre/Gaudin
What do you think should happen with Phil and Joba this spring?
CB-
You may be right but the Yanks have assembled a fairly unusual rotation. Both CC and Vazquez are absolute horses, are unlikely to miss a start. With any luck at all AJ and Andy won’t either. It’s going to be hard to keep that 6th or 7th starter “stretched out”, assuming being “stretched out” for an occasional start is all that necessary anyway, which I tend to doubt.
regarding the vazquez transasction, i dont know if the yankees were targeting anyone or just bargain hunting, but imo it was a no-brainer once the parameters were revealed. basically a proven solid middle rotation stalwart for melky and a high-ceiling lower minor league pitcher. if i was a braves fan, id certainly feel ripped off, especially when the majority of the money saved essentially went to being in troy glass (captain of the dl squad)
CB,
Or better yet, could you give me your 11 pitchers that we break camp with, if you don’t mind?
Ross
January 4th, 2010 at 12:33 pm
Were you watching the WS Marathon on MLB.tv? I dipped into it from time to time, then watched the whole of Game 6….that would account for the lack of energy!
Cheers!
************************
LOL I didn’t watch too much of that yesterday-I caught a little bit of Game 3 (love seeing Andy get his RBI!) and some of Game 4, but that was about it. My lack of energy is coming from actually having to get up and go to work today. That’s hard to do when you’ve been sleeping in for a week.
“Continuing my thought process…I guess it makes sense to put Joba in the pen considering our closer is 40 years old, unless we think Robertson or Melancon is the future closer.”
I think Joba should (and will) get every chance to prove that he can be a capable starter. The expectations are just too high for him. It seems as though some people only want him to start if shows he can be a #1. For some reason these folks think a closer is more valuable than a #2 or #3 starter. There are plenty of #4 starters making 8+ million a year… not many relievers make that much. That goes to show how baseball’s true decision makers truly value relief pitching.
CB, therein lies the rub. Vasquez was a terrific signing, I completely agree. However, neither Phil nor Joba should be a short-man, period.
biz
January 4th, 2010 at 12:08 pm
joba cannot get out of the 5th inning consistently i dont see how that is more valueable than a high quality set up man
————————————————————–
Joba cannot get out of the 5th inning consistently YET.
MTU,
Not to come across as a jerk (although I really don’t care), you really need to stop your whining about the yankees frugality.
First of all the season hasn’t started yet and the roster isn’t complete so you have NO CLUE what the hell their payroll will be this year.
Secondly the Yankees have spent more money than EVERY OTHER TEAM IN BASEBALL the past decade. Their payroll has exceeded 200 million pretty much every year of the past decade.
I would rather have the team spend thier money smartly on the RIGHT players than spend stupidly because they have the money to spend.
You people who complain about the Yankees payroll come across as some spoiled children who WANT WHAT I WANT NOW!!!!!
They continue to trot out 200 MILLION DOLLAR PAYROLLS and yet that’s not good enough for some of you.
Please spare me your indignance about the matter.
Just my opinion.
Oh, and for the record, I love the Javy signing. I was just wondering why they would choose to deliberately stunt the growth of one young starter or the other. Unless they know something we don’t (or have questions about one or the other).
vin, I think Joba could be a #1-3 starter. My line of thought is just that IF we didn’t have Mo to close it down this year or next, we might feel very differently about where Joba belongs. I think you could make an argument that Mo was the second most important pitcher on the Yankees during the post season behind only CC. You can’t replace that with just any Joe…
Keep trying Rich
As for this Hughes Joba thought. It seems like everyone understands that trying to make these guys starters is the right move. However, you have to look at their progress or their makeup as well. One item I would really like to see is Job throw 99 again…geez, I will settle for 97 again as I think the best he hit as a reliever in the postseason was 96. i am in the camp that agrees with Cone that Joba’s shoulder was never the same after he hurt it. My hope is this offseason he rested it and the worked out like a mad a man.
I do not believe either Hughes or Joba needs to be in the minor leagues at all. But, the Yankees need to tell them what they will do with them. I am OK with a competition with a leaning toward Joba in the Pen and Hughes starting, but both guys should be training to be a starter so that neither would need any time to be a starter once the season starts.
I think ‘Wave your hat’ is onto the main problem facing the Yankees rotation this year. I think we can all agree that the Yankees will need more than 5 starters this year, so is it better to keep Joba (or Phil) stretched out at AAA or put them into a high leveraged position in the Yankee pen? The team is absolutely better in April/May having Joba (or Phil) in the pen, but is it better in June and July? It’s easier to move one of them into the Pen during the season than it is to move one of them into the rotation from the pen. Interesting…
The whining about the “cheap Yankee ways” cracks me up.
Their payroll is well over 30% higher than everybody else in baseball every year. Frankly, that’s a dumb way to spend money.
All you are doing by contributing so much to the luxury tax pot is keeping other teams healthy. Its amazing how few fans can comprehend that fact.
Now, they are spending money much wiser. Lo and behold, they are the World Series champs and people still whine. Amazing.
As far as the pitching staff and roles are concerned, that all works themselves out over the course of the year.
Every team believes they have enough pitching in January. One or two sore arms or hamstrings, and everything changes.
They aren’t trading Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain if one winds up in the bullpen. They are looking to amass as much quality pitching as possible. Phil and Joba are quality arms. Their roles will sort themselves out over time.
You don’t trade pitching assets because they aren’t throwing 200 innings by their 24th birthday.
Let me get this straight, it’s dumb to suggest that Joba or Phil will start the year in AAA yet it’s smart to assume that the 4 proven starters will all remain healthy and no emergency starts will need to be made?
Besides, Cashman himself is the ‘dumb’ one who suggested that the Yankees could send either to AAA.
People are paranoid about the performance of the bullpen in the regular season. When Hughes stepped up last year, Joe had just weeded out the 3 stooges: Albaladejo, Ramirez and Veras.
“What do you think should happen with Phil and Joba this spring?”
Should being the operative word here this is how I see it…
I think one of them should go into the rotation and the other should stayed stretched out.
Going into the 2010 season the yankees are clearly the best team in baseball on paper.
Were the yankees to miss the playoffs I think there are two primary reasons that will be the most likely causes:
1. Injury
2. One of the older players “falling of a cliff” in terms of performance.
Performance falling short should one of those two things not happen, is a much lower likelihood cause for missing the playoffs (it could be a reason for them to not win the division – but it’s much less likely to cause them to miss the playoffs entirely and making the playoffs is the primary thing to evaluate at this point in time).
As such, the yankees should balance risk with respect to injuries and older player performance decaying suddenly.
And the biggest overlapping concern would be unexpected injuries to starting rotation. That would be the reason why they miss the playoff. The bull pen is good enough as long as the rotation provides innings.
So the yankees should allocate talent resources to minimize risk with respect to injuries first and foremost.
The yankees probability of making the playoffs is maximized by having either Hughes or Joba as a viable #6 starter. Their value of mitigating risk to the rotation is higher than it would be in the bull pen.
The big question is how do either Joba or Hughes stay stretched out?
My sense is that one would need to go to AAA in order to do that.
If that is the case, then the yankees highest probability of making the playoffs would be to have Joba or Hughes in the minors – not the majors.
It’s in the yankees best short term interest to have either Hughes or Joba in the minors if that’s what’s needed to keep them stretched out because their value of mitigating risk is greater than their marginal addition to the bull pen as short men, IMO.
The Yanks better straighten out the roles of Joba and Hughes as early as possible, get the heads screwed on right for these guys, otherwise we could have two ineffective pitchers next year. Frankly I think that was part of the problem with Joba. Distractions! Should he or shouldn’t he be in the Pen. For my money, I want Joba as the eight inning guy. Hughes has all the weapons and pitches, better control and maturity/temperment to be a starter.
Given the innings restrictions, how many innings can phil and joba throw this season anyway? keep them ‘fresh’ in the bullpen and pull out all the guns in the playoffs.
they won’t be able to do a three man starting rotation this year
austinmac
January 4th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
I’m stuck at being a lawyer. No velocity, no command and, in fact, no ability.
I have no clue whether Chapman will be successful. If the Yankee scouts think he will, then I think they need to use their financial clout to get him. A 21 year old top of the line prospect, if he is one, doesn’t come the Yankees way very often.
————————————————————
Mac, as far as this board goes, I have nothing against lawyers, but, when you meet them and like a couple of purported lawyers that are on here find it necessary to remind all of just who much smarter they are than everyone else and try talking down to them, then I have issues. Fortunately, that isn’t so much the case with some on here.
Judging by your name, are you out of Austin, Texas? Loved that city back in the 60s and 70s. Armadillo World and going to watch tapings of Austin City Limits were IT.
after joba has the season that is going to settle the joba-to-the-pen question once and for all, and phil inserts himself into the rotation permanently this year, what are we going to talk about next offseason?
joba/phil has been the main ongoing topic of offseason discussion since the day i first found this blog before the 07 season and it shows no signs of letting up anytime soon!
CB,
Thanks for that. Totally agree. Who do you think should start in AAA? He who wins the ST battle? ST is what it is, though, and can be somewhat misleading.
Hughes has a lower threshold so starting him out in Scranton is an easy way to control his innings. 4-5 per start.
But Joba might benefit, too, from a stint in AAA.
How does the disparate difference in number of options factor in?
I’m not sure when an option is used up. And if starting in the minors or majors affects it.
I like what the Yankees are doing- making smart trades or obtaining key FAs while keeping some of the younger guys. I liked Melky and Robbie’s enthusiasm when they came up…such a breath of fresh air compared w/ Sheff, Lofton, RJ etc. Last year’s team was such a nice mix…who could not enjoy watching AJ’s pies and Cervelli’s enthusiasm, as 2 examples.
I don’t think the Yankees need every top player. I sincerely hope the Cards are able to keep Pujols, and the Twins keep Mauer, they are the faces of their franchises.
“Or better yet, could you give me your 11 pitchers that we break camp with, if you don’t mind?”
CC
AJ
Andy
Javy
Joba
Mo
Robertson
Marte
Aceves
Gaudin
That’s 10 – that would be a good core. I’d prefer that they not trade Gaudin.
11th guy – I’d love for that to be Melancon should he have a big spring or Romulo Sanchez. I don’t want to see more of Albaldejo.
i just dont see any possiblility other than injury that prevents joba from being #5 this year. they are not going to decide his future based on 20 innings of ST even if phil has a perfect ST. they are finally on the brink of seeing what a full season of unrestricted joba will bring and i dont see them changing that based on anything but inability to perform as proven in a long stretch over the regular season. the only ST battle for SP’s is the #6,7, and 8 starters jobs.
I’m not sure when an option is used up. And if starting in the minors or majors affects it.
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“If a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the active major league roster, he is said to be on optional assignment—his organization may freely move him between the major league club and the minor league club. If a player is on the 40-man roster and not the active 25 man roster for any part of more than three seasons (in which he spent 20 or more total days of service in the minors), he is out of options and may not be assigned to the minors without first clearing waivers. However, if a player has less than 5 years of professional experience, he may be optioned to the minors in a fourth season without being subject to waivers.”
That paragraph is from Wikipedia, so might not be 100% correct
CB,
NM. I see that you have Phil in Scranton.
Jerkface,
So if Phil starts in the majors and stays there the entire season it saves an option? If so, that’s interesting.
I’d like to see Joba in the minors as a possible #6.
IF he enters spring training with that declining velocity and suspect command, I don’t want him “developing” at the major league level.
I was one of those that originally wanted him in the pen but not anymore, not until he’s fixed. There is something wrong with that guy, he just does not look like the same pitcher he did pre-injury in texas.
SJ, I agree about Joba and Phil, but don’t you think that, at least with Phil, that he’s way behind the curve? Let’s assume he stays in the pen this year, with the idea (finally!) that he goes into the rotation in 2011. He’s going to have worse innings limits than this year, his secondary pitches will have gotten almost no use against major league hitters for 2 years (yes, I know he can work on them in side sessions) and he will have to get used to going through lineups more than once. Given that, what could we possibly expect from him next year? He’s not a baby anymore – he will be pitching at 25 (or is it 26?) for most of next year and he will have not progressed one bit. The odds of him reaching his potential will have severely decreased as he would have wasted a good bit of his prime.
New post
Perhaps the Bloggin’Boys could help eliminate some of the confusion and come up with a list of the 40 man roster and the next 10-13 organizational players in line with exactly how many options each have. Obviously, the veterans are out of those said options, but, players such as Hughes and Chamberlain could be included.
new post
GreenBeret7
I never said that. Stay faithful to the facts.
I saw Sanchez and Nova pitch at SWB last year. Sanchez (97 mph!) impressed me; Nova didn’t. Hirsh had fantastic numbers down there, but is he, erm, still in the Yankee organization?
I would rather the Yanks sign Joel Pineiro than risk things with Hughes, Joba or Mitre as the 5. I realize Cashman has to deal with supposed budget considerations, but Pineiro supposedly dropped his demand to about 2 years/15 million, this for a guy who knows the league, threw almost all grounders last year, kept the ball in the ballpark at an amazing rate, and walked almost no one. Yeah, I realize he’s still JOEL PINEIRO, but he seems to have found new life as a sinkerballer.
(And wot’s wrong with lawyers?)
“Igawa is Igawa”
Quote of the decade!
(but the decade is only 4 days old)
One other point about the 8th or 9th inning guys and their value. There is absolutely zero question whether or not a starter is more valuable than a reliever or even a closer…the answer is yes it is. However, come postseason, those positions are critical for every close game and many times the bullpens make a difference because there are more close games. look how critical Marte was last year and of course the difference between us and many teams has been Rivera who blows one every 10 games compared to 2+ every 10 for everyone else.
My point is that they should define what they want and if they want to give another year of starting to Joba that is their choice, but I would most definitely not put Hughes in the pen, because he does not have the stuff to be a dominant reliever like Joba does, but I do think he has the potential to be a good starter. As mediocre/poor as Joba was as a starter, I will say that he was able to throw hard late in his games. BTW, the innings is a little misleading because Jobs threw a lot of pitches to go only 5 innings on most nights
“Or better yet, could you give me your 11 pitchers that we break camp with, if you don’t mind?”
CC
AJ
Andy
Javy
Joba
Mo
Robertson
Marte
Aceves
Gaudin
That’s 10 – that would be a good core. I’d prefer that they not trade Gaudin.
11th guy – I’d love for that to be Melancon should he have a big spring or Romulo Sanchez. I don’t want to see more of Albaldejo.
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I would want a 2nd lefty specialist…the value there is greater than another arm. Also if you want to stretch out a guy you can move him to long relief if you want. It takes time, but it is not as big a deal as people make it out to be. just give him some time to work in middle relief and then let it extend and you start him slowly with the Gaudin/Aceves’ of the world to get him out early. That being said, I would put Hughes in the rotation from day 1 and move Joba to the pen and see how the injuries play out.
The DrB makes an excellent point, one that I suggested two years ago. Andy P.is at his best at 5 innings, Joba needs to pitch 6 innings, to have a designated reliever for them is a way to stretch them out, thereby developing their relievers into potential starters and developing two pitchers.
My starters are:
CC
AJ
Vazquez
AP / with Hughes for innings 6-9
Joba with Aceves for innings 7-9
This means that the rest of the bullpen is needed to complete the top 3 starters games or when someone has an off day, which keeps them fresher.
My bullpen includes Mo, Roberts, Melancon, and Gaudin.
GB7–I don’t claim to be smarter than anyone especially when I have to face another funfilled day in my chosen profession. That explains my escapes to Yankeedom. Like everyone else I am good at certain things and not good at others. I know a good bit about some things and nothing about a lot more. Until I read other people’s Yankee thoughts I used to think that was a subject I knew about.
I have lived in Austin for 30 years. It is a great city to hear music and to live 9 months a year. The summers are brual, but I’m used to it. The Armadillo is long gone, but not nearly forgotten. Come on down(can’t smoke anywhere here), and I’ll show you the sights.
Austinmac, you ever run into Drew Brees’ dad on a case down there? He used to do defense work but seems to have switched over to the plaintiff’s side.
I have had a couple of cases with him over the years. I primarily do civil trial work so we are in the same field. Drew’s mother was also a lawyer in Austin until her recent death. How do you know of Chip Brees?
?
Then why bring it up. He would only use half of it anyhow.
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MTU
January 4th, 2010 at 9:57 am
Tom-
Instead of a fist pump maybe Joba could patent the tomahawk pump (just kidding, for the politically correct amonst you).
Here’s the deal, Joba throwing 90 – 93 is run of the mill starter. Joba throwing 94 – 96 with that fire-breathing mentality is Mariano’s wingman until the great one calls it quits. That gives the Yanks the best back end bullpen in the game.
Hughes will be a much more accomplished starter than Joba, but he needs an effective off-speed pitch to complement the FB and CB…his experimental cutter should be thrashed by Eiland in ST.
I have a board with some Louisiana sports fans on it, one of whom is a lawyer… got the background from her on Brees’ parents, (especially the wacko mom, who later apparently committed suicide after seemingly trying to extort money from some bidnesses down there); I googled and found the dad readily; very understated description of his son’s achievements on an otherwise detailed biog of him there, nice to see. Funny that the biog stresses that Dad was raised south of the Masonx-Dixon line but neglects to mention that his son is now the top-rated QB in the NFL.
I’m lucky enough to have a case with John Lannan’s dad up here in Noo Yawk, very nice guy, works for Allstate’s local staff counsel.
Good breakdown of the bullpen Chad.
On another note, have you seen MLBTR’s new commenting section? I think they had the same as this one before. I really think a site like this should have a commenting system that you can reply to people directly. Just a suggestion…
Edwar Ramirez is useless. Strikes out some lefties with the change, but gets blasted on a regular basis. He has no place with the Yanks.
“Igawa is Igawa”
OK, I know, he flamed out at the major league level and was sent to the minors. There, I believe, he became Scranton’s winningest pitcher ever. Why is it that he is so easily dismissed as a viable major league pitcher? I honestly would like to know the answer. Surely there are plenty of examples of great major leaguers who did nothing when first called up, went back down, and had long productive (if not illustrious) careers.
What is it about this guy??
I am pretty sure tha the Yankees Org. is concentrated in the future of the team, after Mo is gone.
I believe that Hughes will go to Starting role and Joba will be the set-up man.
I think Igawa’s problem is that he’s perfected a pitch known as the “riser,” this being the exact opposite of a sinker… hence he’s a bit of a stranger to the lower reaches of the strike zone, and he gives up a lot of gopher balls, even in AAA. His velocity is underwhelming to boot.
That said, I think he can still make it somewhere as a situational leftie, just not with the Yanks. Probably best off in the NL. I have a rooting interest in him, as he was nice enough to autograph a ball for my son, so I hope he does make it to the majors… somehow.
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