Dawson heading to Cooperstown
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 06, 2010 
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Fairly shocking result as only Andre Dawson was elected to the Hall of Fame today. He’ll join manager Whitey Herzog and umpire Doug Harvey, who were selected last month by the veterans committee.
Here’s the story from the Baseball Writers’ Association.
Bert Blyleven and Roberto Alomar were incredibly close. Each came within a 1.5 percent of the 75 percent necessary for election.
Name – Votes – Pct.
Andre Dawson — 420 — 77.9%
Bert Blyleven – 400 – 74.2%
Roberto Alomar – 397 — 73.7%
Jack Morris – 282 – 52.3%
Barry Larkin – 278 – 51.6%
Lee Smith – 255 – 47.3%
Edgar Martinez – 195 — 36.2%
Tim Raines – 164 – 30.4%
Mark McGwire – 128 — 23.7%
Alan Trammell — 121 – 22.4%
Fred McGriff — 116 – 21.5%
Don Mattingly — 87 – 16.1%
Dave Parker – 82 – 15.2%
Dale Murphy — 63 – 11.7%
Harold Baines — 33 – 6.1%
Andres Galarraga – 22 – 4.1%
Robin Ventura — 7 – 1.3%
Ellis Burks — 2 – 0.4%
Eric Karros — 2 — 0.4%
Kevin Appier — 1 – 0.2%
Pat Hentgen — 1 – 0.2%
David Segui — 1 – 0.2%
Mike Jackson — 0 – 0.0%
Ray Lankford — 0 – 0.0%
Shane Reynolds — 0 – 0.0%
Todd Zeile — 0 — 0.0%
Roberto Alomar and Bert Blyeven should had joined Dawson this year. Like Bob Costas said, Alomar is the better player.
BBWAA continues to make the vast majority of fans scratch their heads every year, be it the Hall of Fame vote or the season awards. Amazing.
We’ll be hearing about this for days. Tim K. was just talking about Alomar.
Repost:
I haven’t listened to talk radio in a while, and unfortunately I heard a snippet this morning.
Actually Mets fan host (his dad’s a die hard Yankee fan, is that unusual for a L.I. family?) and Angels fan producer were having a little debate.
Talking about when Jeter inevitably retires who will take his place as the leader who keeps everyone in their place (like check the egos at the door kind of thing). Angels fan said Teixeira, but the host said, “nah. he’s a mercenary.”
So question for the day. Who on the team or in the system has the potential to be the next Yankee captain/clubhouse leader?
January 6th, 2010 at 2:05 pm
Unbelievable. Blyleven was at 74.2% of the votes.
5 voters turned in blank ballots. Blyleven needed 5 votes to get in.
no tim raines
The only two that should have gone this year were Dawson and Lee Smith. I really like BB’s longevity but he was only 15 games over 500.
As for Alomar and McGriff, they are HOFers, just not 1st ballot HOFers. That is still an honor reserved for the best of the best.
What a pathetic joke.
My bad, 287-250
I’m almost as shocked that Herzog was even selected when a manager like Ralph houk has 1800 wins+ with some bad teams in NY and is completely ignored.
“5 voters turned in blank ballots. Blyleven needed 5 votes to get in.”
true…along those blank ballots, it could had went to him and Alomar.
BBWAA demonstrates its ineptitude yet again.
What percentage did Alomar get?
What crack addict voted for David Segui?
“What percentage did Alomar get?”
73.2
ellis burke got 2 votes?
really?
anyone wonder why this is the way it is? because voters are inept and dont really take this seriously.
Guys who named David Segui, Eric Karros, Kevin Appier, and Pat Hentgen on a ballot should have their credentials pulled. I have more far respect for the guys who left their ballots blank than those assclowns.
All those who said Alomar was for sure a first ballot regardless of the spitting incident (I believe I heard “it’s the HOF not heaven”) can eat it. The spitting incident was absolutely 100% the reason he didn’t get in. I’m not saying he won’t get in next year or whatever but he definitely did not deserve a first ballot election.
*…far more respect…
Need coffee.
What a joke. We need to take the vote away from the writers. Who will the morons elect next year? Jesse Barfield?
S.o.S.
January 6th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
New HOFers: Andre Dawson
=====
gb7,
I think the voters must have been reading our discussion of the best center fielders ever. I wouldnt be surprised if in Andres speach he says “And last but not least i would like to give a shout out to GB7 for hyping me up. Without him, this doesnt happen. Just for that im sending you a hot nurse to take over on me.”
————————————————————
It didn’t help me get in Kaat, John, Santo and Blyleven, though. The 5 blank ballots are just about disgusting.
I’m somewhat skeptical of your idea of HOT nurse, S.o.S. You tend to have a sick sense of humor.
No Blyleven???!There goes the one chance for a Dutchmen to be in the HOF
Although he doesn’t even speak Dutch..haha
Jim Kaat isn’t a HOFer is he?
This is an absolute disgrace, and that’s not hyperbole.
Roberto Alomar is a first-ballot Hall of Famer, a slam-dunk candidate by any measure.
Larkin, Raines and Blyleven should all be in as well, this shouldn’t be that hard.
Until some sportswriters get phased out of the voting, this awful voting process will continue.
How is Alomar not a HOFer? He was Rookie of the Year and finished in the top 10 for MVP 5 times, not to mention a 12 time all star.
I wonder if the spitting incident cost him some votes.
That vote for David Segui was a joke, a jest, a jibe, a bit of fun. Right??????? Please tell me that’s right.
SJ-
Do you have any scuttlebutt on the Yanks and Chapman ?
Pat Hentgen — 1 – 0.2%
David Segui — 1 – 0.2%
Clearly the Loan Toronto sports writer…
rock raines got 30%. What a sham. Can’t believe Blylevin didn’t get in again..
What is up with the David Segui at .2%. Please tell me that’s a joke.
How on Earth did only one person get into the Hall of Fame? Whoever votes for this stuff has lost their minds.
Also how many picks is each person allowed? One or multiple (e.g. I can pick Andre Dawson, Bert Blyleven & Roberto Alomar or just one).
If its multiple picks why did Don Mattingly only get 16% of these peoples votes?
Seems like something is wrong here. Can you leave your ballet blank? That shouldn’t be allowed.
GB:
How do you feel about this crap when writers refuse to vote for a player on their first time on the ballot as this is supposedly reserved for “the great ones” (obviously you can tell where I stand)? There is no precedence or rule dictating this.
“Clearly the Loan Toronto sports writer…” I meant Canadian…. sorry
“That vote for David Segui was a joke, a jest, a jibe, a bit of fun. Right??????? Please tell me that’s right.”
Does it matter? If it’s serious, the guy should have his voting credentials pulled. If it’s a joke, the guy should have his voting credentials pulled. It’s an honor to have an HOF vote, but it’s a responsibility too. If you can’t treat it as such, you have no business being allowed to partake.
let’s admit, this class was very weak. i’m SHOCKED Alomar was did not get enough votes-perhaps him spitting on a MLB umpire ruined his shot this year?
please tell Blyleven to stop promoting himself as a HOF pitcher. the voters have spoken once again.
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!!
How on earth does anyone NOT vote for Alomar? He’s by far the best secondbaseman of his generation, and one of the best ever. He was magical with a glove and probably one of the handful or truly gifted offensive secondbaseman ever. If he is not an HoFer, then nobody is.
As someone says, this is just another embarrassment for the baseball writers.
Somebody actually voted for David Segui?
Paco Dooley I’m glad you don’t have a vote, you’ve lost touch with reality man seriously.
Gawd, Peter Gammons is on MLB Tv, I was so hoping he had died.
“Seems like something is wrong here. Can you leave your ballet blank? That shouldn’t be allowed.”
Sure it should. If a writer believes none of the eligible players aren’t legit HOF’ers, then a blank vote is perfectly acceptable. I don’t agree with the 5 guys who chose to go that route, but they make a hell of a lot better argument for their ballot than the two stooges who voted for Eric Karros have for their’s.
Ken Rosenthal and Tom Verducci were talking on MLBN “about how McGwire can stimulate his candidacy and what can be said to get voters to vote.”
I know what can be done or said.
All that has to happen is you have to play for the Red Sox and Peter Gammons has to stand behind you and push your case for the HOF and it will get done.
As much as i’m shocked about the Segui and Hentgen votes, it blows my mind that 7 people who have professionally covered baseball for many years sat down and thought, “You know what, Robin Ventura is one of the greatest baseball players of all time.”
Who is the bum who voted for David Segui?
Erik Karros! LOL
Not voting for anybody with the list of HOF quality players that this year had is worse than the idiots that decide nobody should be unanimous or they should sweat out the first year. Their priviledges should be revoked. No different than those that voted for ROY and voted for Sazuki and Sasaki and then two years later decide that Japanese players aren’t really rookies.
im glad mcgwire doesnt get the votes again.
who is he kidding. come out, admit what you did and let it be that, same with Bonds, Clemens, etc…
I know no one would willingly admit it, but once they are caught, just bite it and come out and confess like a-rod did. people have short memories when you take responsibility instead of lying over and over again….
i’m tired of hearing about blyleven’s decidedly mediocre career. it’s the hall of fame, not the hall of accumulated stats, or the hall of longevity.
when does he lose regular eligibility so that he can just be voted in by the vets?
GB7
Of course they did. But if the Matsui was a rookie for another team, he would’ve gotten in.
Question for anyone, does anyone get in unanimously?
And should Mariano or Jeter, or both, get in unanimously?
repost
Isnt the 3rd highest saves leader still not in as well? Lee? If its not stats that they look at, then what the hell else is there? Percentage of dirt on a uniform(I know there is an abreviation someone made here regarding this). That would make Ewok in on his first try once he retires from Boston.
Has a pitcher ever been the captain of a team? I would vote for C.C. if Jeter decided to hang em up sooner.
Still cant believe Holliday got 7 YEARS!! What were they thinking? No one was even close to that. The over bidders that being the Mets were already out of it. Can you say albatross?
its about time richard dawson was honored. hope he doesn’t kiss everybody on the podium
How many players are not accumulators of stats? If they play longer than 12 years, they’re accumulating career stats. That’s a pretty weak arguement.
David Segui? Seriously?
CR9
January 6th, 2010 at 2:35 pm
GB7
Of course they did. But if the Matsui was a rookie for another team, he would’ve gotten in.
Question for anyone, does anyone get in unanimously?
And should Mariano or Jeter, or both, get in unanimously?
——————————————————
No to the first as there are always a couple of knuckle-heads who feel that there should be no first-ballot HOF’ers.
Should Rivera and Jeter be unanimous? Probably in the same way that Tom Seaver, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Warren Spahn and a host of others should have been so. In such obvious cases for the HOF, there is little reason for a writer to withhold their vote for a year or two.
S.o.S.
January 6th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
Has a pitcher ever been the captain of a team? I would vote for C.C. if Jeter decided to hang em up sooner.
Still cant believe Holliday got 7 YEARS!! What were they thinking? No one was even close to that. The over bidders that being the Mets were already out of it. Can you say albatross?
————————————————————
S.o.s., the only team captain that was a pitcher that I know of was Ron Guidry, who was a co-captain with Nettles and Willie Randolph.
“Question for anyone, does anyone get in unanimously?”
Nobody has yet. Seaver and Ryan were the closest with 98.8%
“And should Mariano or Jeter, or both, get in unanimously?”
Mo? Right now I’d say no. HOF voters haven’t been terribly kind to closers. Even one as unique as Mo doesn’t get the 100%. Don’t think any closer has topped 86%. Doesn’t mean he shouldn’t, but he won’t.
Jeter? He’s the guy a think could do it. Combination of excellent play at a premium position, postseason resume and outstanding character off the field gives him a real shot IMO.
Always twenty dollars and days late on things these days, I do want to add my “best of luck” to Randy Johnson. The guy gave us his best, that is the best he had to give, taking into account the injuries with which he was dealing.
And of course, I’m thrilled that the entire coaching staff will be back. 2009 was a very special year all around. Let’s just hope that Arod finds a squeeze that makes him happy in time for the start of the new season!
Hope everyone here is doing well.
Back to undecorating my Christmas house. (Told ya I operate on the late side!)
I think that Jeff Bagwell is the only big name first time eligible for next year – so you would think that Alomar and Blyleven would pick up those last few votes.
SJ, because it’s ridiculous at this point. If you bring back Andy in 2011 and sign Lee (or even keep Javy), then Phil is consigned to the pen yet again and you’re saying in essence that he’s a permanent reliever. That’s a total waste of talent….no to mention that at that point you might have a disgruntled kid. I’m sure he likes being a reliever, but that’s undoubtedly due in part to the fact that his other alternative was being in AAA). I love Andy, but either the Yankees are thinking about their future or they’re not.
Complete list of Yankee team captains
http://www.baseball-almanac.co.....capt.shtml
Craw, exactly how is Phil supposed to get a chance to prove himself if you don’t plug him into the rotation? Is he supposed to just bide his time for years hoping someone gets hurt and that he can take their place? If that’s the case, trade him. I don’t even count Joba because as far as I’m concerned, unless he blows up, he’s in the rotation to stay.
Is Don Mattingly still eligible for the next HOF vote?
greenberet, my point is aimed towards those that have extended careers and begin to approach arbitrary milestones that suddenly mean they are great players, think… craig biggio.
“i’m tired of hearing about blyleven’s decidedly mediocre career. it’s the hall of fame, not the hall of accumulated stats, or the hall of longevity”
FWIW, Blyleven was “accumulating” Cy Young votes at age 38, his 20th MLB season. Pitching 241 innings, he went 17-5, with a 2.73 ERA (league average ERA )was 4.29.
The man could pitch.
How exactly is Tex a mercenary? Because he got traded? M, that host sounded like an idiot. I don’t really care who the next captain is or if we even have one. I’m not giving Tex a big “C” off of one year.
This was a year where they could have cleaned up Raines, Blyleven and others, instead they decided to elect a man who now has the lowest OBP of any Hall of Fame outfielder.
So, they lowered the bar, but somehow also managed to keep real Hall of Fame type players out. What a bad day for baseball.
The system has to change.
not only did david segui suck, but he was also in the mitchell report. So to summarize, he was on the juice and still sucked.
This is where the issue is…wasted votes that should’ve been applied to more deserving candidates.
How anyone in their right mind could’ve voted for these guys is certifiable.
Who voted for Appier? Seriously!!!????
Andres Galarraga 22 4.1%
Robin Ventura 7 1.3%
Ellis Burks 2 0.4%
Eric Karros 2 0.4%
Kevin Appier 1 0.2%
Pat Hentgen 1 0.2%
David Segui 1 0.2%
Jeter? He’s the guy a think could do it. Combination of excellent play at a premium position, postseason resume and outstanding character off the field gives him a real shot IMO.
__
nope. there will be some headcase writer from boston or toronto that leaves him off and votes for pat hentgen instead.
Betsy,
the Yankees will do what’s best for the team. They are not going to wrap every thought around Phil Hughes.
If Andy is pitching well and wants to come back, they aren’t shutting that door.
You worry way too much about Phil. He isn’t treated as shabbily by the Yankees as you think.
They just aren’t going to wrap their decisions around his feelings.
BLows up?? Explain, please.
It seems that both Joba and Phil are in tenous positions at this point. If Andy comes back and the Yankees go for Lee, where does that put Joba and Phil?
Both pitchers filled in as good guys do when the Yankees needed pitchers in the past and now they have to “fight” for the 5th slot. On any other team both would be 3 and 4 starters.
Jay Mariotti’s one of those who turned in blank ballots.
What makes it weirder is that he voted for Dawson and Blyleven last year.
frank, 2 great, 3 good, and 14 mediocre(with 5 or 6 below average) seasons does not make a HOF pitcher IMO.
frank, he was also never even the best pitcher on his team, never started a game 1 of a playoff series… the list goes on.
Check out Alomar’s first 5 seasons vs. Cano’s first 5 seasons.
Stat Alomar Cano
AVG .291 .306
OBP .355 .339
SLG .401 .480
OPS .756 .818
OPS+ 110.8 113.2
Think that’ll shut up the Cano haters? Nahhhhhh.
Tom B
January 6th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
greenberet, my point is aimed towards those that have extended careers and begin to approach arbitrary milestones that suddenly mean they are great players, think… craig biggio.
————————————————————
You could point to Aaron, Mays, Mantle, Ford, etc. that hung on a long time. Players that stayed for the numbers or money, or, in Mantle’s case, because NYY asked him to stay to draw crowds. He also needed the money.
Evan, seriously – are you kidding? Pathetic.
Um, how is it possible that anyone voted for David Segui? Pat Hentgen? Kevin Appier? 7 votes for Robin Ventura? I’d rather have a computer vote at this point, the writers are so bad. Disgraceful.
Finally Andre Dawson goes to Cooperstown…But how can Ron Santo be still locked out ???? The Dutchman as well
It’s very clear why Alomar didnt get in this year. The spitting incident kept him off the ballots of some voters as a punishment. He’ll get in next year with over 80% of the vote.
Jim the VT Yankeefan
January 6th, 2010 at 2:59 pm
Check out Alomar’s first 5 seasons vs. Cano’s first 5 seasons.
Stat Alomar Cano
AVG .291 .306
OBP .355 .339
SLG .401 .480
OPS .756 .818
OPS+ 110.8 113.2
Think that’ll shut up the Cano haters? Nahhhhhh.
*************************
Unfortunately, I don’t think anything will shut up the Cano haters.
Alomar, Blyleven, Larkin and Raines are surly HOF players.
I’m surprised Alomar isn’t in though. He was really a phenomenal player.
Should say surely HOFers. Don’t know how surly any of them r lol
Cal Ripken, Jr. came within one vote his first year. One writer didn’t believe in unamimous so he didn’t vote for Cal. I agree that conditions in the voting process should change to current standards of play. Five blank votes is ridiculous.
Players like Ryan and Ruth and others may have stayed a year too long, but they were still productive to their teams until their last year. Guys like Blyleven and Biggio or Bagwell could have played another year and probably been effective.
SJ, I don’t think you’re understanding my point…..and, by the way, it’s annoying that anytime I comment about Phil being in the rotation it’s assumed I are more about him than I do about the team. I happen to think that Phil in the rotation as a very good/great starter would benefit the team a lot more than Phil in the pen. We’ve wanted the Yankees to develop young pitchers for years …but now we want to block the development of a potential stud so Andy can pitch until he’s 40.. Yes, I think it’s an utter waste of talent to keep him in the pen. It’s a waste for Phil and yes, it’s a waste for the Yankees.
I’m still curious how Juice Head McGuire is getting more votes than Donnie.
Pat M.
January 6th, 2010 at 3:02 pm
Finally Andre Dawson goes to Cooperstown…But how can Ron Santo be still locked out ???? The Dutchman as well
————————————————————
I can list 15 players that have any number you want to see that should be in. I can list 15 players that are in and shouldn’t be, too.
The 5 idiots that turned in blank ballots are a disgrace. That’s whay Blyleven needed. Alomar needed 7, I think.
Santo, Kaat, John, Hodges, Blyleven were at or near the top at their positions for more than 15 years
GreenBeret7 January 6th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
You could point to Aaron, Mays, Mantle, Ford, etc. that hung on a long time. Players that stayed for the numbers or money, or, in Mantle’s case, because NYY asked him to stay to draw crowds. He also needed the money.
————————–
Mantle stayed on a couple of years too long but he was only 36 so it’s not really the same as those who play into their 40s to get to 500 hrs or 3000 hits. It’s a shame to think what he could have been if he wasn’t a drunk.
I was an Oriole fan first. Robby was the slickest 2nd baseman I ever saw. He could make plays that no one thought he could get to. Fantastic! He was quoted as saying that playing with Ripken was the best SS/2nd experience he had. They were awesome. Also watched Segui and he didn’t suck. He had a good bat and could field decently.
Tom:
When you indicate a guy is merely accumulating, it implies to some degree he’s out there like Willie Mays with the Mets. Blyleven was exceling well into his 30′s, finishing in the top 4 of Cy Young voting three times after age 32 (and yes, he was the best pitcher on his team in all three of seasons).
He didn’t play with a lot of good teams, thus a shaky w-L record, but he was consistently pitching well below the league ERA and on the rare occasions he did get to partake in postseason play, he was excellent.
I’m not 100% sold on him as an HOF’er, but I’m getting there. I am 100% convinced he was light years beyond the mediocre you suggest he was.
Betsy,
They aren’t keeping Andy Pettitte as a charity. The man can still pitch and pitch effectively, as we saw this regular and post-season.
The Yankees are about winning. Andy Pettitte helps them win rings. Phil Hughes could win a spot in the rotation th is year if he pitches well enough.
If he doesn’t, they aren’t sending Andy home to give Phil a shot.
They also aren’t going to bypass making a run at a proven arm like Cliff Lee to “give the kids a chance”.
As far as developing pitchers is concerned, while that is an admirable goal, winning trumps it.
Very few teams that win “develop their own pitchers” these days.
Its usually a mix between free agents, trades and their own guys.
Phil will get a shot to win a starting job this year. Whatever he does though, isn’t going to affect what the Yankees do with Pettitte or their pursuit of Cliff Lee in the off-season.
Winning always takes precedent in NY over individuals wants or needs.
Let the fans vote for HOFers, just like the AllStar game.
Half of these writers never saw Larkin, Edgar, etc…
Alomar was punished for his spitting incident, whether they saw him or not, they knew he was a spitter.
I know none of them saw Blyleven.
GB7, you saw him, he’s in right?
GB, Did you see the post a few minutes ago comparing Alamor & Cano’s first 5 years ???? Most interesting …..
BTW, Hughes in the pen this year certainly wasn’t a waste for the Yankees or Hughes himself.
It helped win the Yankees a World Series and it gave Hughes the most success he has had as a big leaguer to date.
I’d say that’s a win win for both parties.
raymagnetic
January 6th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
Should say surely HOFers. Don’t know how surly any of them r lol
————————————————————
Wait until 5 years from now when Randy Johnson and I are on the ballots….then, you’ll see SURLY.
“Cal Ripken, Jr. came within one vote his first year. One writer didn’t believe in unamimous so he didn’t vote for Cal.”
Actually 8 voters passed on naming Ripken. He received 537 out of 545 possible votes for 98.5%.
SJ-
While you are around.
Do you have anything you could share on the yanks and Chapman ?
Thanks in advance.
“Let the fans vote for HOFers, just like the AllStar game.”
All star voting has always been a joke too.
I agree with Betsy. Phil Hughes needs to be in the rotation. We need to develop starters not guys just for the bullpen. It seems like many fans care about the bullpen more than the rotation because every pitching prospect the yankees develop has to be in the bullpen.
Hughes has the potential to be a great frontline starter why put him in the pen for an old pitcher like Andy who only has one year left in the tank. I like Andy but his time is almost up.
By the way, I wasn’t directing my comment about it being assumed I care more about Phil than the team to you, SJ – it was a general comment.
Andre Dawsonm, Roberto Alomar, Jack Morris, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Tim Raines, Alan Trammell, Don Mattingly
that’s who i would vote for. congrats to Dawson!
Haven’t heard anything about the Yankees and Chapman.
The Hendricks Brothers (his new agents) do a very good job at keeping leaks to a minimum.
I don’t think anybody has a accurate feel for where he’s going to end up.
My gut tells me the Angels because he’s close to Kendry Morales (who hooked him up with the Hendricks Brothers) and I believe they will shell out the bucks needed to sign him.
Paco Dooley January 6th, 2010 at 2:24 pm
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!!
How on earth does anyone NOT vote for Alomar? He’s by far the best secondbaseman of his generation, and one of the best ever. He was magical with a glove and probably one of the handful or truly gifted offensive secondbaseman ever. If he is not an HoFer, then nobody is.
As someone says, this is just another embarrassment for the baseball writers.
=============================================================
As someone says, they should change the system.
Don’t ask me how but maybe a combination vote between broadcasters, writers and fans. Maybe 40-50-10%.
SJ44 or Betsy?
Yeah.. I think I rather listen to SJ44 and not a whiner.
One other thing re: Chapman….
The Marlins must feel they are in the mix because they are putting off all other roster moves until they hear his decision.
That tells me they are realistic in their belief they have a shot for his services.
“no spitter January 6th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
Paco Dooley I’m glad you don’t have a vote, you’ve lost touch with reality man seriously.”
Do you care to defend this inflamatory comment in any way? How on earth is Alomar not a HOF player? He’s the best secondbaseman of his generation and the best I have seen in my nearly 4 decades of watching baseball., Maybe I am forgetting someone, but I don’t think so. You take his combination of superior offense and defence and you have a rare talent that belongs in the hall.
Not to sound like a jerk, but I seem to be making a more intelligent argument than you are, and so I am probably better prepared to vote for the HoF than you are!
Yeah, I believe Chapman will end up with the Angels or someone completely unexpected.
i don’t think the writers should have anything to do with it.
players, former players, coaches, gm’s… people with real knowledge and insight into baseball. not some guy covering the royals for a rag paper.
“players, former players, coaches, gm’s… people with real knowledge and insight into baseball. not some guy covering the royals for a rag paper.”
Yeah, the Veteran’s Committee has a great track record, doesn’t it…
Pat M.
January 6th, 2010 at 3:14 pm
GB, Did you see the post a few minutes ago comparing Alamor & Cano’s first 5 years ???? Most interesting …..
————————————————————
Yeah, I saw those. What I posted a few weeks ago about Cano’s type of hitting style was even more shocking. Cano doesn’t walk, but, look at another hitter of the same type….Roberto Clemente. Clemente’s first 5 years (Clemente was one year younger) couldn’t match Cano’s. They’re basically the same type of hitter. swing at pitches off of the plate and hammer it. He hardly ever walked. Barely 600 times and 1300 strikeouts in 18 years.
http://www.baseball-reference......ro01.shtml
What was the original basis/situation for writers voting for the hall of fame, anyway?
Alomar not getting in is a joke. He’s one of the top 5 2b of all time and maybe the best defensively.
Tom B
January 6th, 2010 at 2:58 pm
frank, 2 great, 3 good, and 14 mediocre(with 5 or 6 below average) seasons does not make a HOF pitcher IMO.
—————————————–
If this is in relation to Blyleven, you should immediately drop a urine sample. FOURTEEN mediocre seasons. I suppose you think 1985 was a mediocre season because his record was 17-16. Of course, he led the league with 293 IP, 24 CG, 5 Sho, 206 K’s, and had an ERA of 3.16 split between a miserable Cleveland team and a mediocre Twins team. This season was very typical of many of the seasons in his career that you refer to as “mediocre”. On the ’85 Yankees, he would have likely won 23-25 games.
I saw Andre Dawson play. I never thought I was watching a Hall of Famer on the field. Very good player for his era. Not an all time grate.
Watching Tim Raines play – I always thought he was a hall of famer. His impact on games was enormous. He wasn’t Ricky but that is no knock.
Jim Rice was demoralizing last year as a baseball fan. But now the baseball writers seem firmly committed to let things slide.
Newspapers around the country are getting crushed. And the baseball writers’s association continues to show how out of touch and misguided it is.
SJ-
On the Marlins :
Do they have that kind of money ?
Also would be very curious to know if the Yankees evaluated chapman as frontline starter vs. a closer type ?
thanks again.
“no spitter January 6th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
All those who said Alomar was for sure a first ballot regardless of the spitting incident (I believe I heard “it’s the HOF not heaven”) can eat it. The spitting incident was absolutely 100% the reason he didn’t get in. I’m not saying he won’t get in next year or whatever but he definitely did not deserve a first ballot election.”
I just saw your earlier post and assume that this is why you made such an idiotic comment. First of all, this is one mistake in an amazing career. He admitted it was a mistake, apologized and is now friends with the victim (who himself wants to see Alomar voted in if I remember correctly). He didn’t use PEDs like a lot of his generation (as far as we know) and was never a disruption for his team outside of this one moment.
One last note – when he was paired with Omar Vizquel I think that they were the best defensive middle of the infield combination ever, especially when turning the DP.
When does Phil hit free agency? Not until 2013, correct?
SJ, that’s great……but IMO, leaving him in the pen for basically the rest of his career is extremely short sighted.
I should qualify my statement about Segui. He was a decent player but I don’t believe he was HOF material.
Can’t believe that McGwire received that many votes. Will Sosa match that number??
Edgar Martinez has a long wait ahead of him to get into the HOF. Until writers are more accepting of specialists in baseball, it’ll be a long time before a DH gets in. They barely accept relief pitchers after 40 years.
CB, you are right. The fact that Raines got 30% of the vote is just ridiculous.
The world “potential” to me is a double edged sword.
On a team not built for trying to win the World Series every year, you can play the “potential” card with your players and give them years to find their way in the game.
Its much tougher to do that with a team whose annual objective is to, “win the World Series every year”.
The Yankees tried the “potential” card 2 years ago with Kennedy and Hughes in the rotation and it was a disaster.
The Red Sox tried it with Buchholz a few years ago and it was a disaster. They tried it with Craig Hansen in the bullpen and that was also a failure.
My feeling about Hughes and Chamberlain is that they will end up in the roles they carve out for themselves with the team.
In other words, if both guys show they can be successful starting pitchers, that’s where they will end up. If one or the other end up being better suited for the bullpen, that’s where they will end up.
If neither guy distinguishes themselves (highly unlikely, IMO), they will be traded for known commodities.
Its all about taking advantage of the opportunities you are given. Neither guy will be annointed with any specific role.
Brian Cashman and Joe Girardi learned their lessons after 2008.
Its why, despite some fans buying into the rhetoric of both guys being in the rotation next year, that was never a realistic option. Hence, the Javy Vasquez trade.
Both guys have great arms and I believe will eventually end up in the roles best suited to them. That’s why you have competition for roster spots.
For those who think Alomar was slighted, check out when Yogi Berra was inducted..1972. His playing days were over in 1964..he had to wait three years..which doesn’t seem possible but there it is.
… January 6th, 2010 at 3:25 pm
What was the original basis/situation for writers voting for the hall of fame, anyway?
———————————–
Check out the book “Cooperstown Confidential”. While a lot of the book is dreck the parts on the history of the hall are excellent.
Betsy-
There’s no point even worrying about Phil yet.
First, he may win the starting spot this year and go on to fame and fortune. Or, he may win it and take a step backwards. Or, he may be the set-up man and go on to be Mo’s replacement. Or, he may be the set-up man and take a step backwards there, too. Or, he may be traded between this afternoon and Opening Day 2011.
It’s just too soon to worry about it.
Paco, yes when alomar played with Omar that was probably the best defensive middle ever. They were fun to watch.
Any time a player has important numbers like homers, RBI and steals that only 2 others have ever done in their career is a HOFer.
I think both Joba and Phil get a shot starting this year, maybe not right off the bat, but at some point in time. Cash has refused to part w/ either of them, so I am sure he has plans for them.
Its why, despite some fans buying into the rhetoric of both guys being in the rotation next year, that was never a realistic option. Hence, the Javy Vasquez trade.
Both guys have great arms and I believe will eventually end up in the roles best suited to them. That’s why you have competition for roster spots.
==========================================
SJ is right about this. Cashman won’t make the same mistake twice which is why he got Vazquez. This is not the developmental league, these are the Yankees, with the win now mentality. May the better man get the 5th starter spot.
ArtieA
January 6th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
For those who think Alomar was slighted, check out when Yogi Berra was inducted..1972. His playing days were over in 1964..he had to wait three years..which doesn’t seem possible but there it is.
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Berra played in 8 games for the Mets in 1965. Spahn was set back because he pitched in Mexico and the minors in 1966.
SJ, I’m hearing that The Angels are heavily in the Chapman mix…….GB, Cano is from the school of see ball, hit ball……GB, I’ll be thinking of you as I have to get a lubricate type shoy in my knee…..No nurse Karloff’s here, they’re all pretty much blonde and and easy on the eyes……
SJ, IMO, Phil has never gotten a real chance to prove himself thanks to injuries and their decision to keep him in the pen. I’m fine with re-signing JV if he pitches well or maybe pursuing Lee (though I have no interest in giving him over $20 million for 5 or 6 years). I don’t think Phil has a shot to win the competition in ST, so for me he’s as good as in the pen (I much, much prefer him to go to AAA). Then what happens in 2011? If you sign Lee (or keep JV) and keep Andy, Phil is in the pen again and he will never be a starter as long as he’s wearing pinstripes. I think he could be an outstanding starter and I surely think in a few years he’d be a much better pitcher than Andy is right now. If you don’t think that highly of him, then I can understand your point of view better. If he doesn’t get the chance here, he’ll go FA at about age 27/28 and someone will give him a chance to start.
In regard to PH in the rotation; Phil will pitch in the NYY rotation at some point in 2010. Maybe he wins the job in ST. If not, there is no way any team goes all year with just 5 SP, so at some point he’ll get in there. The better he pitches the better his chances that he stays in. With the NYY I think it is about results. You have to trust Cashman. The last 2 or 3 years he has said many times how he values developing SP because of the cost of acquring someone else’s. He has 2 guys (Phil & Joba) on the verge of being full time SPs. I don’t know how, none of us does, but somehow he will get both of them into the rotation by 2011. They will at least get a shot. Staying there is up to them. He didn’t hold onto them this long to put them in the pen without giving them a really good shot at the rotation. Plus I don’t think he wants a $100MM rotation.
“Think that’ll shut up the Cano haters? Nahhhhhh.”
It’s not hating on Cano to say that Alomar was a vastly better defender than is Cano.
That’s not a knock on Cano, that’s just more of a statetment of how brilliant Alomar was as a defender.
And Alomar was a better hitter than Cano because is because of his ability to get on base.
The best book I’ve ever read on the HOF is entitled, “The Politics of Glory” by Bill James (Later renamed “What Happened to the HOF?”). You can get a copy online or by borrowing it from GB’s personal collection (I thought you’d like that GB).
Betsy,
Who says that’s where he will end up the rest of his career?
You don’t know that.
You concede him losing his “battle” with Chamberlain for a starters spot. If that’s true then, he’s not a starting pitcher. At least not yet.
It doesn’t mean he won’t ever be a starting pitcher.
Also, what if you are wrong? What if he isn’t going to be a great starting pitcher? If so, wouldn’t he be better suited for the bullpen?
Personally, I think he will end up as the 5th starter this year and all this worry is for naught.
CB,
Agreed re: Raines. He is a Hall of Famer and its a joke he’s not in.
There is no perfect system for voting. Certainly the fans and Veterans Committee do not distinguish themselves with their votes for the All Star team and HOF respectively.
I think one way to get better voting is to make the voting public. Let’s see the guys with agendas and let’s farret them out of the process.
A person who votes for David Sequi for the HOF should have his vote pulled.
A person turning in a blank ballot should have his vote pulled. That’s a silly protest and, given the number of legitimate candidates on the ballot this year, shows disrespect for the process.
A voter who votes for a candidate one year and not the next (Jay Marrioti), should have his vote pulled. How does a guy like Blyleaven go from being a HOF on his ballot last year to not one this year? Did he have a bad year drawing circles from the broadcast booth in Minneapolis?
If you just do a better job of regulating the people who have votes, and make them defend them publicly, you will have a fairer voting process.
Fortunately, Ben, I don’t give a rat’s patootie what you think.
Trisha -
I was supposed to undecorate my Christmas house today, but had to run up to help out my mother-in-law. So, I’m even later than you!!!
I have a feeling it’s going to have to wait till the weekend.
On the HOF voting.
FIRST: I would like to congratulate Andre Dawson.
I cannot believe 5 writers left their ballots blank. I don’t believe this is the place to make statements, but, apparently they did. I don’t have a problem with writers not filling in all the blanks – sometimes you really shouldn’t – and just voting for the 1, 2, 3 or 4 guys they really believe in.
But what these 5 guys accomplished was to take all the attention away from the lone inductee – Andre Dawson – and place it on themselves and the two most notable guys who got close enough to have gotten in if they had 5 more votes (though, who is to say that these 5 would have voted that way).
And then I would like to say that I heard Bert Blyleven on the radio on the way home from my MIL’s and say that he gave one classy interview. Even had a funny line about of course it has to be next year: Blyleven in 2011.
Pat M.
January 6th, 2010 at 3:36 pm
SJ, I’m hearing that The Angels are heavily in the Chapman mix…….GB, Cano is from the school of see ball, hit ball……GB, I’ll be thinking of you as I have to get a lubricate type shoy in my knee…..No nurse Karloff’s here, they’re all pretty much blonde and and easy on the eyes……
————————————————————
Pretty nurses, huh? I have two words for you, Pat. I just can’t type them here.
Good luck on the procedure, Pat.
GreenBeret7
January 6th, 2010 at 3:33 pm
Any time a player has important numbers like homers, RBI and steals that only 2 others have ever done in their career is a HOFer.
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Disagree. Those are simply 3 arbitrary statistical categories chosen by Dawson’s proponents because he excelled in those areas. While they are significant, they do nothing to describe his weaknesses as a player and whether or not those shortcomings may offset his strengths.
“How does a guy like Blyleaven go from being a HOF on his ballot last year to not one this year?”
Agree, but doesn’t that cut both ways? Had to be a pretty decent number of guys who said he wasn’t an HOF’er last year but is this year.
Betsy,
The Yankees didn’t keep him in the bullpen as “punishment”. He stayed in the bullpen because he became the best setup man in baseball for the final 3+ months of the regular season.
That’s not a sign of disrespect by the Yankees. He was a big reason why they won this year.
Why wouldn’t he have a shot at winning a spot in the rotation? He has as good a shot as Chamberlain. Perhaps more because he’s coming off a better year than Joba had.
Just because he didn’t use all 4 pitches in games all the time doesn’t mean he wasn’t throwing them.
They made sure his side sessions included throwing all 4 pitches while he was in the pen this season.
He was given a fair shot in 2008 and he bombed. It happens to a lot of young pitchers.
He has bounced back from it and is now one of the best 12 arms on the team. That’s pretty good for a 24 year old.
Now, we see where he best fits the club. In that end, that’s all that matters.
Doreen
Blyleven in 2011 has a nice ring to it.
I haven’t even thought about undecorating yet, will probably wait until my son returns to college
If the Yankees get Cliff Lee next year Andy is done.
Won 20 games at age 22 with 25 CGs
60 shutouts
Over 1/3rd of all games started were complete games
One of the top 3-4 curveball pitchers in the game.
Bert Blyleven deserved, long ago to be in the HOF!!
SJ, did the Sox stick Bucholz in the pen? No, they kept him in AAA and now he’s going to be a fixture in their rotation. Phil has a few awful starts in 2008 (and I think he was injured at the time) and that seems to have stuck with him. Joba will probably be ok enough in the rotation this year to stay…..so when does Phil get his chance to prove himself? If he doesn’t get a big enough chance (like the whole year), then he has to practically be dominant in just a few starts to show his stuff – that’s asking the impossible and it’s not fair.
SJ44 -
Just to tack onto the Hughes/Chamberlain starter thing. One can root for both to end up being quality starters. And it doesn’t all have to happen this season. But, there is nothing wrong with the situation if one of them (or even both) end up being quality bullpen arms, perhaps even closers one day. Things happen as they’re meant to, eventually. And, though even the best bullpen guys will never earn what a front-line starter can earn, neither will they go hungry.
(Plus, that’s not my concern.)
We as fans have no control. Can only watch and wait and hope. Yet, I understand how when you latch onto a player and they become a real favorite, you just want all good things for them.
I actually found myself thinking about Melky Cabrera’s situation in Atlanta while I was driving today. He really isn’t guaranteed a spot there – he could be traded, in fact. I feel like he’s not appreciated there. And I know not everyone felt about Cabrera the way I did, but he was one of ours and even with the debate about his precise value to the team, there was never, I don’t think, any argument that he had NO value to the team. So, I felt bad. But, what will be will be.
lets go for the tri and see what it would take to get Juan back here
upstate kate -
My daughter doesn’t go back until the 23rd. We have a live tree. I think we’re living dangerously as it is.
upstate kate
January 6th, 2010 at 3:45 pm
Doreen
Blyleven in 2011 has a nice ring to it.
I haven’t even thought about undecorating yet, will probably wait until my son returns to college
————————————————————
Might as well save yourself sometime and leave it up. Christmas is right around the corner, Kate.
CB,
You are absolutely dead on about Raines. Raines was simply the superior player to his former teammate Andre Dawson, and should be in the Hall of Fame.
It seems as if Raines suffers from playing in the same era as Rickey Henderson, which is unfortunate, as by any measure Henderson was the greatest leadoff hitter of all time.
I don’t believe Dawson should be in, not a with a .323 career .OBP, but it wasn’t as bad a choice as Rice was last year in my opinion.
Revisonist history from sportswriters somehow turned the tide for Rice. The “most feared hitter of his era” nonsense was overstated. If he was the “most feared hitter” it was only for a brief stretch.
Rice apparently struck such fear into opposing pitchers that they lost the inner fortitude to pitch around him – as he never walked alot.
I think the ballot should have been Alomar, Raines, Larkin, Blyleven and Trammell, but I don’t think Raines or Trammell will ever get in. And that is a crime.
SJ,
I really don’t get it. With Blyleven I can at least understand the argument for why you wouldn’t not feel compelled to vote for him.
Raines is simply unfathomable. Watching him play was a joy. He was so disruptive. He forced the other team to react to him in so many ways.
People are always talking about the theoretical impact of speed on the game. But most players with that tool can’t make it translate into true impacts on winning games. And it’s usually because you can’t steal first base and most guys with speed don’t hit that well.
But Raines was one of those guys who had the package. He was a no doubt Hall of Famer.
He was a much, much better ball player than Dawson. I never thought they were comparable watching them.
Alomar and Larkin as well. Hopefully that is simply the whole “first ballot HOF” issue (and the spitting issue with Alomar).
But it’s really sad when one of the greatest SS in the history of the game is kept out and player like Dawson gets voted in.
But overall, the Raines issue is a travesty. He’s not even close to getting elected.
The baseball writers really are embarrassing at this point. I agree that there is no great way to vote but making the votes public would really go a long way in terms of increasing accountability.
By the way, SJ, I agree with you about it being hard to develop kids and win at the same time..but the Sox did it with Lester and now they have Bucholz in the rotation.
rconn23 January 6th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
“It’s not hating on Cano to say that Alomar was a vastly better defender than is Cano.
That’s not a knock on Cano, that’s just more of a statetment of how brilliant Alomar was as a defender.”
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No, it’s hating on Cano when “fans” here constantly rip him as being a sub-par 2B. My point was to contrast him with a player as great as Alomar. Also, while Cano is not Alomar with the glove he is still a far above average fielding 2B.
——————————–
“And Alomar was a better hitter than Cano because of his ability to get on base.”
That’s just silly. Cano had 87 HRs while Alomar had 39. I think that outweighs the 0.016 difference in OBP.
I don’t know if Cano will pan out to be a HoFer but he is on pace with a guy that deserves to be in the hall.
The guys with blank ballots aren’t a disgrace at all- there are arguments that can be made against each guy here. The disgrace is voting everyone and their mother in the hall of fame-
There has been alot of complaining about the BBWA’s HOF vote and deservedly so (for being underinclusive). However, the vast majority of mistakes in the HOF are a result the Veteran’s Committee being to overinclusive (much due to cronyism). I guess if error was inevitable, I would prefer the former as the mistakes cannot be undone but deserving players can eventually be enshrined.
It simply amazes me how much fascination and fan conviction the HOF generates (myself included). I’d like to say in the whole big scheme of things that it doesn’t matter, but I think we all know that baseball directs the current of life.
Yanks reach agreement with Mitre. He probably will be traded by spring training. Cheap with only an upside for those clubs that play in large, pitcher friendly Stadiums.
Yankee Trader
January 6th, 2010 at 3:46 pm
Won 20 games at age 22 with 25 CGs
60 shutouts
Over 1/3rd of all games started were complete games
One of the top 3-4 curveball pitchers in the game.
Bert Blyleven deserved, long ago to be in the HOF!!
————————————————————
Can you say MONEY PITCHER? 15 complete game shutouts by a 1-0 score. 5-1 in post season with a 2.20 ERA.
GB, Real Pretty !!! Count me in as well on the Rock Raines commitee on his snubbing…..
“Did the Sox stick Bucholz in the pen? No, they kept him in AAA and now he’s going to be a fixture in their rotation.”
Did the 2010 season already happen, and Buccholz already won 15 games? The Red Sox hope Buccholz will be a fixture in their rotation. The last few months of 2009 (starting against some crap teams) don’t make a career, nor make a guy a “fixture” in a rotation of a team that is just spending more and more money every year. If he falters in 2010, he will receive similar treatment as Hughes and Kennedy in ’08, and/or be traded.
I grew up in Dawson’s era. He was great and very deserving, OBP doesn’t tell his whole story.
A fantastic player and I’m happy to see him in.
Betsy -
From all reports, Phil Hughes himself preferred being in the bullpen at the ML level to being sent to AAA again.
He got to face ML hitters in very tough situations. How did this not help his development, his confidence?
The fact that he didn’t have a great post-season doesn’t bother me. It could have just been an untimely slump – or he could have just hit the wall for the year. Of course he would feel badly about that, especially having been “lights out” for most of the season. It happens. No one has a perfect season or a perfect career. And even perfect games require a little assistance and little luck.
Pat M.
January 6th, 2010 at 3:53 pm
GB, Real Pretty !!! Count me in as well on the Rock Raines commitee on his snubbing…..
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Raines gets killed because of Ricky Henderson comparisons. He shouldn’t. Likely the second best leadoff hitter in history.
“The guys with blank ballots aren’t a disgrace at all- there are arguments that can be made against each guy here. The disgrace is voting everyone and their mother in the hall of fame-”
Agreed. If no one deserves it then no one deserves it.
“There has been alot of complaining about the BBWA’s HOF vote and deservedly so (for being underinclusive). However, the vast majority of mistakes in the HOF are a result the Veteran’s Committee being to overinclusive (much due to cronyism).”
This is true. But what’s particularly concerning about Rice and Dawson is that the baseball writer’s seem to be moving closer to the quality of voting by the veterans committee rather than getting better.
Rice and Dawson are two of the worst selections in the entire hall, Rice in particular.
I bet part of why Dawson made it this year is that Rice made it last year. At least Dawson played CF for some period of time.
Rice really sets a precedent to open up the flood gates.
Frank, its ridiculous that these writers change their minds from year to year on players that haven’t played in years. Either you think they are a HOFer or you don’t..another year or the class shouldn’t change that opinion.
Doreen – Ain’t it Just “Grand”?
January 6th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
Betsy -
From all reports, Phil Hughes himself preferred being in the bullpen at the ML level to being sent to AAA again.
He got to face ML hitters in very tough situations. How did this not help his development, his confidence?
————————————————————
He gets a major advantage of being able to talk to Rivera about how to pitch to batters, Can’t get a better pitching coach than Mo Rivera. That info works as well with starters as it does with relievers.
Betsy,
The Red Sox gave Buchholz a shot at the rotation and he bombed.
They wasted over 8 million dollars on John Smoltz and Brad Penny because Buchholz couldn’t carry his weight in the rotation.
They spent over 80 million dollars on John Lackey because they don’t have any confidence in Buchholz doing more than just beating Baltimore and Toronto at the present time.
Fixture in the rotation? As what, the 6th starter behind Wakefield, Dice-K, Lackey, Lester and Beckett.
Phil Hughes has a more prominent role on the Yankees at the present time than Clay Buchholz has on the Red Sox.
Again, Hughes going to the bullpen wasn’t punishment. He became the best setup guy in the game last year and helped them win the World Series.
I’d say that’s a pretty good thing.
“That’s just silly. Cano had 87 HRs while Alomar had 39. I think that outweighs the 0.016 difference in OBP.”
No, it’s really not. The single most important value a player can have offensively is to get on base. Alomar was in the top 10 in the AL .OBP five times.
Cano vs. Alomar .OBP is .339 to .371. That’s not a small gap. Hopefully Cano will become more selective as his career continues.
Oh, and Alomar also finished in the top 10 in steals, seven times. Cano is anything but a threat on the basepaths.
Again, Cano is a very good player, just don’t try to sell me that he’s got the same skills as Alomar offensively – at least not yet.
CB:
Agreed. Rice is one of the writer’s worst selections and as I said earlier, he should not have been elected. When writers have to start cloaking their rationale for selection in ambiguous adjectives (like the “most feared hitter in the league”), you know they’re reaching. Dawson’s fielding, baserunning, and greater longevity make him more intriguing, closer to a 50-50 proposition.
NYYROC, if either of these kids goes to the pen, they need to be long-men (not set-up). Otherwise, they will not be able to step in and spot start.
SJ, I say that Phil can not win the ST only because he’s not ready for it. Thanks to his stint in the pen, he never used his curve (which is now inconsistent) and he didn’t develop his change. If he was ready with his other pitches, heck yeah I think he could win the #5 spot. He can’t do that with a FB and cutter……and I still hate the idea that pitching against scrubs in ST (instead of actually working on pitches) is going to be the deciding factor in who gets the start. Working on his pitches in side sessions is not the same as throwing them against live competition. Phil never used his curve when he was the set-up man and obviously he didn’t use his change.
As to Phil and the rest of his career : if he is a short-man this year, it will set him back tremendously. If he’s in the pen (presumably as a short-man, but in any capacity, frankly) in 2011 (which he would be if Andy returns), then yes – you might as well keep him as set- up man until he turns free agent (because that will have been 2 years down the drain as far as developing as a starter goes), after which he can make the determination as to what he wants to do (he’s got no choice now).
Also, I didn’t mean to imply that Phil was kept in the pen as punishment.
Just wow. If Andre Dawson is in the Hall of Fame, then Bernie Williams should get 95 % of the vote. The ineptitude of these voters is simply mind baffling. Dawson, Jim Rice, Gary Carter? What the hell is this becoming?
You honestly couldn’t pay me to take a trip up to Cooperstown these days. The entire thing has become a huge money-making operation obsessed with electing mediocre to good players just so they can rake in the revenue from induction ceremonies.
Andre Dawson wasn’t half the player Bobby Abreu is. Maybe Bobby should be a first ballot HOFer? What a joke.
It is not a “disgrace” that someone isn’t elected to the Hall of Fame. Being elected to the Hall of Fame is an honor to be conferred – not receiving an honor is not the same thing as disgrace.
That said, I have to agree that, at least in Wave’s world, Raines ought to be in. I personally wouldn’t have voted for Rice, and I personally would have voted for Raines over Dawson, although I might have voted for Dawson too, and some others, as well.
However, that’s just my opinion, or your opinion, or someone else’s opinion. A player being in the Hall of Fame is nothing more or less than having enough of the right kind of opinions about that player at the right time. Who’s to say whose opinions are “right”? Shall we elect Bill James the Hall of Fame Czar and let him anoint the “correct” players?
I see a lot of posts on here every day which IMO are a lot nuttier than putting Jim Rice in the Hall, or voting for Dawson, or not voting for Raines.
There’s no particularly good method, and IMO there never will be. Personally, I don’t see why anyone over 15 really cares.
Its simply amazing to me how one poster can absolutely ruin a blog.
Its a crying shame that the comment section is dominated by someone who needs to be committed.
Half this thread is being wasted talking this poster down from the ledge.
Its just getting really old at this point.
You would think someone who posts so often would have a slight semblence of a clue, but that’s not the case.
Its just more garbage and nonsense onn a daily basis.
Imagine this blog without that nonsense? Rational baseball discussion wouldn’t get overwhelmed by the drama queen of the century.
Just GO AWAY
There is no advantage for Hughes or Chamberlain to go to AAA and dominant hitters. It does nothing for their development.
What Phil Hughes did last year turned his entire career around.
He’s wearing a World Series ring, knowing he played a big role in getting it.
He learned from the best in Mariano in how to handle success and failure in the game.
He succeeded in a big way at the major league level. That’s much better than “getting your innings in” at the AAA level.
To me, if you are good enough to stick on the roster and contribute, you will find your role eventually.
As far as team politics is concerned, Phil Hughes is in a much better place in that area than Joba is right now.
He isn’t getting traded and he isn’t going to AAA.
He will compete with Joba for the 5th spot in the rotation and I think he will win it.
Eric Hinske signed with the braves. Looks like we dont have that veteran bat off the bench and backup OF anymore. I would like too see melky back but gardner is a good player. he just needs that extra push to start hitting consistently. I would like to see J.Willingham come off the bench. But hey, Johnny Damon is always there(for now)
Well, I don’t think we’re going to agree on Phil, so moving on to another subject………….is anyone concerned about the lack of depth in the OF? It appears as if (sigh) Gardner is going to be the LF…..and we’re depending on Hoffman as a backup. First off, Hoffman may stink in ST or he may not play well enough to make the team, in which case he goes back to LA. Even if he stays, one backup OF (and that’s with Gardner who is hardly a guarantee to stick in LF) is not sufficient, especially since we literally have no one in the minors. I know Cash said he was going to re-stock, but I’m not sure how he’d go about doing that.
Gaudan or Mitre for Francour.
discuss.
sad to see Tim Raines’ odds of making it diminishing…
This post is a bit from left field but please do not hold it against me.
Alot of hard core serious NY artists love and follow baseball. we have an equal place in history, in NY its called the Museum of Modern Art , etc. The point is who gets in. who gets a room. In recent years the world and its support systems have made life easier for everyone. People are better coached, better paid, better supported, and the level has changed, tho excellence has not.So guys or gals who seemed incredible are no longer seen to be as fluid as they were once regarded. this is why it is an elite institution.
Painters like Diebenkorn had fellow painters on the west coast who never made it into the MOMA. A lot of great players will never reach Cooperstown.
doesn’t make it fair but who holds the stop signs?
it is not about fairness or numbers it is about legends. that writers control the discourse says a lot about baseball.
k
Betsy
as you can see I am. We do need to make moves back because like you said-hoffman is now our backup OF. I dont think we’ll resign nady. I liked hinske, because he comfortable coming off the bench and Pinch hitting and playing some OF. I think we need to go get that veteran OF like hinske.
Kevin January 6th, 2010 at 4:07 pm
Eric Hinske signed with the braves. Looks like we dont have that veteran bat off the bench and backup OF anymore. I would like too see melky back but gardner is a good player. he just needs that extra push to start hitting consistently. I would like to see J.Willingham come off the bench. But hey, Johnny Damon is always there(for now)
===================================================
By process of elimination Damon could be back.
Until they report to ST, making assumptions on the roster is a waste of time.
There are still guys out there and a lot can happen between now and reporting day in February.
No interest in Francour. Wouldn’t mind Willingham here as a platoon with Gardner in LF. They can put Gardner in for defensive purposes in the late innings in games Willingham plays.
He can hit lefties, is a good guy, and will be in a better place this year. His brother, who was his best friend, was died during the season last year and his head (naturally) wasn’t in the game.
SJ: Would you please explain team politics in reference to Joba and Phil?
According to MLB.com, Mitre is in the mix for the 5th slot.
I personally believe that Joba will win the 5th position, politics or not. Joba has the better skills and number of pitches.
CB
January 6th, 2010 at 3:58 pm
Rice and Dawson are two of the worst selections in the entire hall, Rice in particular.
I bet part of why Dawson made it this year is that Rice made it last year. At least Dawson played CF for some period of time.
Rice really sets a precedent to open up the flood gates.
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Trust me. There are worse selections in the HOF. PeeWee Reese was voted in by the writers, as was Dizzy Dean because he came back after a 10 year retirement and pitched in one game as a publicity stunt and it gave him 10 years.
Kirby Puckett. Rabbitt Maranville. Lou Boudreau. Those are just a few of the writer’s votes. The vets aren’t any better with Ross Youngs, Phil Rizzuto, Bill Mazeroski.
The execs putting in Bowie Kuhn and ignoring Marvin Miller.
Doreen, I apologize if I’m not understanding you correctly, but what does Phil preferring to stay in NY have to do with his future? Even if he prefers to be in the pen here, I still would send him to AAA. Also, I don’t believe that he had any choice in the matter. The Yankees thought he was pitching too well to be sent to AAA – that’s why they put him in the pen. It’s not like they asked him what he wanted to do.
Do all of these writers have little wee-wees…or do they just think they do?
I don’t get it.
Why not just vote a guy in his first time on the ballot, if he’s deserving? These writers have been given power they don’t deserve and they wield it unfairly often, I think, just to prove that they have it. You know, the “organ inferiority” syndrome.
At the beginning, the HoF was reserved for the greatest of the greatest. Ruth, Cobb, etc.
Years later, the “criteria” changed. Bill Mazeroski got in, and others whose game might have been superior in certain respects, but not in all respects. But was Roberto Alomar not as good as Paul Molitor? Kirby Puckett? Get real. Speaking of Molitor, he spent the last 8 years, or so, of his career as a DH, and had never been known as a defensive whiz prior to that. Was he really a better, more valuable player than Edgar Martinez?
Those writers who didn’t vote for Alomar or Blyleven ought to be stripped of their right to vote. They’ve acted irresponsibly, plain and simple. I’m glad they did the right thing with Dawson–who certainly was every bit the player that, let’s say, Jim Rice was–but it is absolutely shameful that some of them didn’t vote for Alomar. He spit on an umpire?
Yes, that was ugly and disgraceful. But it’s not as if he tainted the game of baseball by doing that–he just embarrassed himself. Cobb once beat a disabled fan to a pulp, and he intentionally spiked opposing players whenever he got the chance. Bert Blyleven won nearly 300 games pitching for teams that generally weren’t winners, and that curveball of his buckled more knees than you could count. He was certainly as good as Don Sutton or Ferguson Jenkins.
The HoF has always been based, at least in part, on the subjective experience of the writers who get to vote. Nothing is ever going to change that. But there should be, at the very least, some effort made to ensure that only kind of writer who gets to vote is the kind who doesn’t have his head stuck way up his own you-know-what.
SJ44-
Looking at the April schedule, the 5th starter might not even be needed until close to the end of the month.
Do they then both start off in the bullpen, the winner getting long innings role, until needed as a starter? Or might that be a reason to send the winner to AAA for a few starts, keeping it under the 20 day mark that will not use up an option?
Backup outfielder could be filled through a NRI that excels in Spring Training and gets a long look/accepts an assignment to AAA/straight up makes the team, or by either Hoffmann/Gardner (whoever doesn’t start, if they both make the team). There is always Nick Johnson, too. (That last part was a joke)
Wow what a pathetic job. Andre Dawson has no business being in the hall of fame.
Should have been Alomar, Blyleven, McGwire, Raines, Martinez and Larkin.
Gaudan or Mitre for Francour.
discuss.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Yankees and Mets seldom deal.
I think Joba comes into spring training throwing bullets like he did in 2008. Remember though, this is a guy who takes a little bit to bring things up to peak velocity. Does anyone remember Joba in the bullpen in April of 2008, when although his numbers looked pretty good he labored pretty consistently. His fastball velocity was topping out at around 95 and his slider wasn’t all that sharp. Once he shifted to the rotation in June it seemed all of his arm strength finally was there and he was throwing 97-98. Everyone needs to check out the gameday pitch fx from his start against Pittsburgh in June of 2008. The numbers there are pretty remarkable- he was not hitting, but sitting, 98-99 from the third through sixth innings.
Its unfortunate that both of these guys aren’t going to get a chance to show their stuff, but ultimately I think Joba wins the job. All the machinations of the Joba rules from last year would be naught if they threw him in the pen. He’s a starter, and he’s going to be a damn good one- if he throws the way he did in 2008 he’s arguably the best pitcher on this team. And until the first week of August, he did have the lowest ERA on the staff. I don’t think its extraordinary to suggest that over a full season, a healthy, in shape Joba could be the best starting pitcher on the staff.
I guess what is interesting about the HOF vote is that it can be used as a bully pulpit – a platform for someone’s personal grudges, or personal favorites for that matter, or to mount a protest of sorts. It is not an objective vote.
As such, we really probably should not be surprised at the results of each year’s voting.
Even if a majority of the voting body are diligent in their effort to vote fairly and do their homework, all it takes is a few who either haphazardly fill out their ballots because they don’t really take it seriously, or who want to make their own statement, to make the outcomes of the process at least a little questionable.
But we are all human beings and this is part of the deal. I think overall, one would have to agree that most of the players voted into the Hall of Fame have deserved the honor; most of those denied entry probably did not.
I think we can stop worrying about Phil. He stayed healthy. Pitched well. Gained a ton of confidence. And has the respect of his peers.
No worries!
“It is not a “disgrace” that someone isn’t elected to the Hall of Fame”
Wave,
Well, use whatever term you like. When writers leave ballots blank, but haven’t dopne so in previous years, and when one voter submits a Hall of Fame vote for David Segui, well yeah, I think it is disgraceful.
Blyleven now has to wait another year for an honor he deserves because five writers submitted blank ballots.
And you’re right, it is an honor.
So some memebers of the BBWAA could do their due diligence and learn how to correctly measure a player’s value instead of submitting arbitrary arguments such as “I know a Hall of Famer when I see one”.
That would be honoring the process.
Mick-
Absolutley right. damon should be back. He lives in my town-windermere FL,(YES the town where tiger woods lives) and I would like to go talk to him lol. My friend lives right next to him and I think Damon would appreciate what I would have to say. gardner is a good player but i just dont feel comfortable with him being the everyday Left fielder.
New post with some comments from Brian Cashman.
CB,
I’d put Tony Perez in there as well.
Thanks guys just throwin’ it out there.
I think one of those pitchers will bring back a OFer at some point this year, if Damon does not come back.
SJ, and he got rocked in the playoffs and had to be demoted behind Joba. Phil completely fell apart in October……he argued with the umpires and skipped out on a media session (that was disappointing. If you can face the media when you’re doing well, it’s gutless to avoid them when you’re not.). Whatever confidence he had from last season may (or may not have) dissipated.
They got tired of Joba’s act last year. Coming into camp out of shape and the DUI started it. Then, the defiance with the catchers, shaking off over 70% of the pitches called regardless of who was catching, was the final straw.
They had a pretty stern discussion with him near the trading deadline and told him in no uncertain terms he was going to have to change his act.
That’s why he was so quiet the rest of the way, despite being yanked in and out of the rotation.
Greatest number of pitches means little if you can’t throw them for strikes.
As starter, Joba struggled bigtime with the one pitch you need to have to be a successful starting pitcher in the majors, fastball command.
He is also very predictable as to when he throws his slider. Another pitch he can no longer throw consistently for strikes.
Guys around the game adjusted and laid off his slider on 2-2 and 3-2 counts, knowing he was going to throw it and knowing he couldn’t locate it. That’s why his walk totals were so high.
Joba has his work cut out for him to be a successful starting pitcher.
There is also the lingering question of just how healthy his shoulder really is.
Depending on who you talk to, there is growing sentiment that perhaps he’s best suited for 70-80 all out innings rather than 160-200 innings.
I think we will find out more about that in ST.
Hughes on the other hand, has none of those issues hanging over his head. He’s just in a better place in management’s eyes at the present time.
Of course performance, or lack of it, can change perceptions on either guy quickly.
Actually, Francouer, had a very good season with the Mets and is a terrific defensive OF’er. I don’t see the Mets trading him, especially for Gaudin or Mitre.
Now maybe Melky will come back to NY-in a trade for Francouer!!!!!!
The role of baseball writers is as old and revered as the sport itself. Henry Chadwick played an integral part in making Baseball America’s Pastime. Maybe the BBWAA owes their retention of the HOF gatekeeping rights to the debt the games owes him.
http://www.henrychadwick.com/biography.html
Sadly, in 15 years, it will be zit-faced little jerks like Verducci that aren’t coordinated enough to whip his own behind without smearing it that will make the HOF useless. Their only skill is being able to play electronic baseball.
GB7,
I agree with what you’re saying. There are a number of bad selections. Reese is one. Pucket another.
But I have to say – I saw a good chunk of Rice’s career and all of Dawson’s and it never even popped into my mind that those two were hall of famers. It wasn’t even remotely something that struck me as likely.
Tim Raines always struck me as a no doubt guy.
Correction:
enough to ***wipe*** his own behind
No Betsy, whatever confidence YOU had in him dissipated. Big difference.
If that’s what it takes to shake his confidence, then he isn’t a major leaguer in any role.
He’s not as fragile as you think these days.
As I recall Guidry Rhigetti, started their careers in the Pen..so don’t see why it so bad to have Hughes or Joba start their careers this way. My exeperiece following baseball since 1960 is that pitchers seem to hit their prime/stride in the late 20′s not early twenties. Only a few make it this way. Thinking of Joba and Hughes, one will be very well suited to the pen for the long haul..and hopefully that’s Joba. In the meantime let’s keep winning and keep the games shortened to six innings with a solid pen.
Send Mitre, Albaladejo, Edwar Ramirez, and Colin Curtis to K.C. for DeJesus.
CB
January 6th, 2010 at 4:24 pm
GB7,
I agree with what you’re saying. There are a number of bad selections. Reese is one. Pucket another.
But I have to say – I saw a good chunk of Rice’s career and all of Dawson’s and it never even popped into my mind that those two were hall of famers. It wasn’t even remotely something that struck me as likely.
Tim Raines always struck me as a no doubt guy.
I agree one Raines snub, but have zero issues with Dawson. I’m somewhat split on Rice, though.
I have a lot of issues with Kaat, Santo and Blyleven, though. And John to some extent.
I see a lot horn blowing for Morris but almost a total snub on Pettitte’s possibilites. Almost identical career numbers by the time Pettitte finishes.
SJ, I just don’t buy the idea of guys having stuff that “spikes” in the bullpen. In all honesty the best stuff Chamberlain has showed in his career has been in 2008 in the rotation, not in any of his bullpen stints. I don’t see the “different demeanor” that people incessantly throw out there as existing when he pitches out of the pen. Although I can’t dispute anything else you’re insinuating.
You could make a better argument for Phil’s stuff and demeanor being “different” out of the pen then it was out of the rotation. He threw 2-3 MPH harder and was far more aggressive within the strike zone, stuff that really isn’t the case with Chamberlain for anyone that watches him closely.
I think both of them are going to be dynamite major league starters, and I think Dave Robertson ultimately might be better suited to a eighth inning role than either of them anyway, He has a true two pitch arsenal and perhaps the second best pitch on the team when he commands it (his curve) outside of Mariano’s cutter. And for those who obsessively pound the idea of finding Mariano’s “successor” (when for all we know Mariano will be around for another five years) I think Robertson is plenty capable of being that guy. His fastball may not have special velocity, but it has special movement and his delivery is for some reason incredibly deceptive. Couple that pitch with the plus-plus curve and if he can develop his command to attack the strike zone a little bit more, I don’t see much reason why he won’t be one of the elite relievers in the American League this year. And now I’m not a pitching coach, but I’m more inclined to say that Robertson’s command issues are more mental than mechanical. Everything about his mechanics- the wind up, the arm action, the follow throw- looks really clean, and he certainly doesn’t have anything glaring going on like Melancon does.
SJ, I just don’t buy the idea of guys having stuff that “spikes” in the bullpen. In all honesty the best stuff Chamberlain has showed in his career has been in 2008 in the rotation, not in any of his bullpen stints. I don’t see the “different demeanor” that people incessantly throw out there as existing when he pitches out of the pen. Although I can’t dispute anything else you’re insinuating.
You could make a better argument for Phil’s stuff and demeanor being “different” out of the pen then it was out of the rotation. He threw 2-3 MPH harder and was far more aggressive within the strike zone, stuff that really isn’t the case with Chamberlain for anyone that watches him closely.
I think both of them are going to be dynamite major league starters, and I think Dave Robertson ultimately might be better suited to a eighth inning role than either of them anyway, He has a true two pitch arsenal and perhaps the second best pitch on the team when he commands it (his curve) outside of Mariano’s cutter. And for those who obsessively pound the idea of finding Mariano’s “successor” (when for all we know Mariano will be around for another five years) I think Robertson is plenty capable of being that guy. His fastball may not have special velocity, but it has special movement and his delivery is for some reason incredibly deceptive. Couple that pitch with the plus-plus curve and if he can develop his command to attack the strike zone a little bit more, I don’t see much reason why he won’t be one of the elite relievers in the American League this year. And now I’m not a pitching coach, but I’m more inclined to say that Robertson’s command issues are more mental than mechanical. Everything about his mechanics- the wind up, the arm action, the follow throw- looks really clean, and he certainly doesn’t have anything glaring going on like Melancon does.
ArtieA
January 6th, 2010 at 4:26 pm
As I recall Guidry Rhigetti, started their careers in the Pen..so don’t see why it so bad to have Hughes or Joba start their careers this way. My exeperiece following baseball since 1960 is that pitchers seem to hit their prime/stride in the late 20’s not early twenties. Only a few make it this way. Thinking of Joba and Hughes, one will be very well suited to the pen for the long haul..and hopefully that’s Joba. In the meantime let’s keep winning and keep the games shortened to six innings with a solid pen.
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Guidry only had a couple of early callups when he pitched out of the pen. He did go to the pen for about a month in 1979 when Gossage was hurt. Righetti was a starter and moved to the bullpen after 4 successful years as a starter.
Miggs: Well said. Now if the poster would take the hint.
SJ: thank you for your response, I think. So you are basically saying that the “good guy” with the best demeanor gets the 5th spot whether he is the better pitcher.
Yes, I believe that Phil is a good pitcher. He did help get the Yankees to the WS, BUT he did NOT help the Yankees win the WS. For whatever reason, tired arm or just plain choking, he was a big bust in the WS. Girardi selecting Joba to pitch in the WS over Phil had impact on Joba’s value as a pitcher he could trust.
I realize that you and Betsy and I will not agree on this topic so why don’t we just agree to disagree. And I am tired of the negative rhetoric you post about Joba. He may not be the well-mannered silver spoon in the mouth type of player but he does have super talent.
Politics, smolitics what happened to talent as a decider. Not all the Yankee heroes in the past were of good demeanor but managed to play great baseball.
It’s now the Hall of Almost Fame. Congrats Andre!
“Politics, smolitics what happened to talent as a decider. Not all the Yankee heroes in the past were of good demeanor but managed to play great baseball.”
I’d like to see Joba come out of the pen with a pair of Goose Gossage Mutton Chops & Fu Manchu!
Ok Paco dooley you asked for it….you wrote…
“How on earth does anyone NOT vote for Alomar?”
Apparently they didn’t so you’re wrong.
“He’s by far the best secondbaseman of his generation, and one of the best ever.”
Is that supposed to be some kind of objective barometer to judge his skill? My simple response is….says you.
“He was magical with a glove and probably one of the handful or truly gifted offensive secondbaseman ever.”
Hate to be point out an obvious reality, his “magic” came at second base…not exactly the most skill necessary of positions. If he was the dynamo you obviously think he was why wasn’t he playing short?
“If he is not an HoFer, then nobody is.”
Really this is why you’ve lost ALL sense of reality….you really think that statement is true?….Ruth, Mantle, JoeD, Cobb, Mays, Gehrig, Ripken aren’t if Alomar isn’t?
Get a clue and come back to planet earth, when you make statements like the last one you need to have your head examined.
Alomar will get in the Hall of Almost Fame next year with Blylevin. If you’re going to let in compilers like Dawson (Who still fall short), you might as well let Mcguire in too.
Kevin Appier isn’t a hall of famer but putting him in the same context as Segui and Burke is silly, he was VERY good from 1990 to 1997, it’s just that injury destroyed his second half of the career.
He is closer to Don Mattingly than you would think ( advance metrics would actually suggest he’s a lot better. they rank Appier as the #75 best pitcher of all time but Mattingly at #279 position player, I wouldn’t put it that far but in neutral context they were similar in many ways) . as both were the one consistently good player on a slew of bad team, just that the Royals got even worse after Appier bombed but the Yankees became awesome after Mattingly retired.
Fred McGriff should get in solely based on his appearance in the Tom Emansky’s Defensive Drills Videos.
Its endorsed by Fred McGriff!!