The personality of a championship team
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 11, 2010 
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The big baseball news* of the past 24 hours is the Reds’ signing of Aroldis Chapman, but Jorge Arangure last week brought up the idea that the Yankees might not have been in the Chapman sweepstakes because of concerns about his makeup. I can’t say one way or the other about Chapman’s makeup, but Arangure does bring up an interesting idea about the Yankees roster.
What role does character play is building a winning team?
The Yankees seem to have gone out of their way to add high-character players. They signed CC Sabathia, A.J. Burnett and Mark Teixeira last season. They traded for Curtis Granderson and Javier Vazquez this winter. I don’t know that there’s a way to quantify the impact of player personalities — Nick Swisher’s laid back attitude, Derek Jeter’s ability to stay cool under pressure – but those intangibles must play some role.
What do you think? Do the players’ personalities affect the team as a whole? Does that make a difference when chasing a championship?
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* The big non-baseball story of the weekend was the possibility of a Derek Jeter wedding. Maybe it’s going to happen. Maybe not. It’s not something I get too worked up about, but feel free to discuss.
Totally agree with your point….high makeup is so important in todays games
For me the part of your make up that matters the most is your professionalism and pride in your work. I’ve worked well with people that, on a personal level, we didn’t like each other. And it wasn’t in an office environment.
To follow the clubhouse character train of thought when looking at one player in particular, perhaps this time around Vazquez is better set up for success since he will be a part of an insanely more harmonious clubhouse than that of the 2004 team. 2004 featured the ever-pleasant Kevin Brown, Kenny Lofton angry about his playing time, to name just two instances of discord. I think the culture, while extremely overrated when discussing differences between winning and losing, can help a player like Vazquez be comfortable, better deal with the ups and downs, and hopefully improve on his last stint in pinstripes.
This team definitely seemed like they were enjoying themselves out there in ’09, and that helps, but I think avoiding bad apples is much more important than seeking out certain personality traits. A guy like Manny will only be tolerated for so long, even if you’re winning, while a guy like Swish is a great teammate when you’re winning but his laid back attitude could be grating if you’re having a losing season.
I don’t think good chemistry is essential, as proved by the Bronx Zoo years. However, I do think it contributes to a winning team. I really enjoyed last years team, not just for the winning, but for the characters.
Granderson appears to be a good fit in that regard. So was Damon and I really hope he returns.
Doreen, I understood exactly what you said and I disagree; I guess we need to leave it there as I don’t think he has any talent and whatever talent he (Igawa) does have is not sufficient to get it done at the major league level.
I don’t really see what’s to discuss about Derek Jeter’s wedding.
As to character/chemistry, I suppose a team can hate each other and still win, but I think it helps to like each other (in this case, these Yankees were a living example of a giant love-in)). After all, they spend 6 months of the year together, more than they spend with their families, in the most intimate of circumstances. For teams that don’t like each other, they might need to win based only on sheer talent. I’m not sure they would fight for each other, on or off the field. The 2009 Yankees loved each other and loved their manager. In part, I think they never gave up on games because each player (and baseball is a game of individuals) didn’t want to give up on his teammates; giving up an at-bat would be something of a betrayal to his teammates and his manager. I’m not talking about failing to execute – that happens to every team and every player. I’m talking about how this team never gave up, fought tooth and nail in every at bat, even when they faced a seemingly insurmountable deficit. Even in losses, they often made blowouts close games and gave the other team fits (see game 5 of the WS as a perfect example). The 2009 team was just a very easy team to love and I think I will be able to say the same about the team going forward.
As to Chapman’s “makeup” issues, obviously many teams had those concerns. It’s interesting that, per Heyman, the A’s were the 2nd place finisher – not the Sox, the Angels, the Phillies. The teams with the most $$$ seemingly were the ones who least wanted to spend that $$$ on him. I still think the biggest problem was that Chapman right now only seems to care about getting to the majors as quickly as possible and most teams just can not guarantee that to him.
“What role does character play is building a winning team?”
Character plays an important role.
Chemistry plays virtually none.
Team chemistry counts. It’s up to players and coaches to blend during spring training and into the season. Some players come advertised as good clubhouse guys and others don’t. Granderson will be well accepted by his new teammates. Nick Johnson will feel like he’s coming home. The starting pitchers in 2009 bonded together and will take Javy Vasquez under their wings to make him feel like a contributor. Mariano is like another coach in the bullpen.
It remains to be seen how Robby Cano looks to A-Rod with his buddy Melky gone.
Update with the old Stadium :
http://zellspinstripeblog.com/.....dium-1410/
I dunno about chemistry & character. Thurman Munson & Reggie Jackson won. Though don’t get into a fight with a star pitcher in the shower and injure him.
Kate, the ’77 and ’78 teams actually did have chemistry. They were all against Martin, Jackson and George Steinbrenner. The rest of them got along very well, much because of guys like Munson, Nettles, Rivers, Pinella and Hunter.
High character is important if deciding between players of like skill set but I’ll take aptitude over attitude everytime if winning is the ultimate goal.
I think its only natural that people tend to perform better when they are in a good environment with people they get along with.
It also makes the team even more fun to cheer for when they have good guys on the team.. NY is gonna love Granderson.
I remember several of the guys (particularly AJ) saying that you don’t have to like each other to have a winning team, but that they really did like/love each other, which (at least to me) was obvious watching them play. A lot of people say that chemistry is overrated, but when you have the kind of chemistry that the ’09 Yankees had, it certainly doesn’t hurt.
GB:
I don’t believe postseason awards are allowed to be used as a criteria for triggering an option year.
GB7
how are you? are you back home?
“The Yankees seem to have gone out of their way to add high-character players.”
Really? Burnett (last year notwithstanding) has always been known as a me-first jerk, Vazquez is a well-documented choke-artist, and Swisher was grabbed on the cheap at least partly because he had a rep as a prima donna.
I think character plays a huge role which is why I believe Marlon Byrd was never an option for left field. Of course, it also helps if the character guy can hit a 3-2 curve out of the park.
Frank
January 11th, 2010 at 9:49 am
GB:
I don’t believe postseason awards are allowed to be used as a criteria for triggering an option year.
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Awards are allowed. Things like specific stats numbers like homers or wins and saves for a pitcher aren’t. At bats/plate appearances for hitters and games/innings pitched for pitchers are.
When you see all the big market teams pass on Chapman, its natural that “makeup” questions will be asked.
I think the more appropriate quesiton with Chapman is how long teams feel he is away from contributing to a major league roster?
That, and not makeup, is the big question.
If a team believes, as the Yankees, Phillies and Rays did for example, he’s 3 years away from being a contributor to a major league rotation (at best), committing 5 years (all on the 40 man roster) and 30 million dollars makes no sense.
That money can be put to use toward players who can help you much sooner.
If those projections are wrong, and he is a star, then you can get him as a free agent in 6 years when the Reds won’t be able to afford him.
Its all about risk vs. reward.
He’s not a bad kid. He’s immature a bit. However, most 22 year olds are. They all aren’t Derek Jeter at 22 years old.
In the end, the Yankees passed because the money needed to secure his services, vs. the doubt as to when he would be able to contribute at the major league level, didn’t add up to their liking.
Given who he signed with, the Yankees weren’t the only team with that opinion of him.
“Awards are allowed. Things like specific stats numbers like homers or wins and saves for a pitcher aren’t. At bats/plate appearances for hitters and games/innings pitched for pitchers are”
Oh. My understanding was postseason awards were allowed as incentives but not as triggers for options. I was aware that games played, PA’s, innings, etc could be the basis for option triggers.
upstate kate
January 11th, 2010 at 9:51 am
GB7
how are you? are you back home?
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Morning, Kate. I’m back home and doing fine. Thank you for asking. I’m just honing my crustiness and cantanerocity for the blog battles ahead.
LOL @ Burnett being a “high character player”, especially before last year.
“He’s not a bad kid. He’s immature a bit. However, most 22 year olds are. They all aren’t Derek Jeter at 22 years old.”
Very true. You could write the same thing about a Nebraska native. We are hoping he’s come around.
I ‘m big on team chemistry/character, and the positive role it can play. The Yanks had it this year, and also had it in their run in the mid/late 90s.
But, it begs the question: At what point can too much close friendship amongst players become a detriment when the team chooses to trade or release a popular player. Do we have to be concerned about Cano now that his BFF Melky has been traded?
Jeets: Talk to your buddy Tiger before popping the question.
Randyhater, huh?
AJ had maturity issues, but he was well-liked by his teammates. He is obviously friendly with Pavano and Beckett from Florida and I know he had a lot of friends in Toronto. Swisher a prima donna? Just because Omar Vizquel (a certified lunatic) doesn’t like him? What exactly does Vasquez being a choke-artist (I’m not saying he is, by any means. I think I’ll blame 2004 mostly on the WHOLE
randyhater
January 11th, 2010 at 9:53 am
“The Yankees seem to have gone out of their way to add high-character players.”
Really? Burnett (last year notwithstanding) has always been known as a me-first jerk, Vazquez is a well-documented choke-artist, and Swisher was grabbed on the cheap at least partly because he had a rep as a prima donna.
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Who said that Vazquez was a “well-documented choke artist besides the idiot media and “fans” like you or who said that Swisher was a primadona besides Guillen?
ooops….
What exactly does Vasquez being a choke-artist (I’m not saying he is, by any means. I think I’ll blame 2004 mostly on the WHOLE team) have to do with his personal character?
Of course character doesn’t make a difference. The Bronx Zoo Yankees did just fine on the field despite clubhouse turmoil.
“What exactly does Vasquez being a choke-artist (I’m not saying he is, by any means. I think I’ll blame 2004 mostly on the WHOLE team) have to do with his personal character?”
Same thing anyone’s personal character has to with winning.
The only thing wrong with Vazquez in 2004 was trying to pitch injured on a team that had two starters.
Not Omar Vizquel….Ozzie Guillen
Thats why Randy Johnson was never a good fit here. He clearly never wanted to be in NY. Only reason he came here was the Yanks gave him a nice fat 2 year contract extension.
The only thing wrong with the ’77 and ’78 Yankee clubhouse was a manager that was as bad a clubhouse influence as Guillen is now, a player that only one player on the team liked (not counting Jackson loving himself) and an owner. Those three gave the other players a common goal besides winning.
I think one aspect of chemistry that gets overlooked is the impact it has on a manager. A team that gets along well allows a manager to dedicate a larger percent of his time to on the field activity.
As a teacher I compare it to the classroom. Do I need perfect behavior from my students in order to achieve results on the standardized test? No, absolutely not, but it certainly maximizing instructional time and quality if I do have it.
I also believe, because of this, that itrequires more talent to win without chemidtry than it does with.
Oops, Ozzie Guillen – thanks, John.
I think chemistry matters to a small extent to some players and if they’re free agents, a good clubhouse can only help draw new talent.
I rememember specifically CC asked Cashman about Jeter and Arod and how they get along. I also recall players this season talking about how the bad vibes in the Yankees clubhouse in recent years gave the team a reputation of being a place you wouldn’t want to play.
2009 was the opposite. Jerry Hairston commented on this team having more fun than any team he’s ever been on. That and he thought Cano’s talent surprised him the most seeing him up close every day.
Bret the Hitman
January 11th, 2010 at 10:11 am
2009 was the opposite. Jerry Hairston commented on this team having more fun than any team he’s ever been on. That and he thought Cano’s talent surprised him the most seeing him up close every day.
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I may be remembering wrong, but I believe Hinske said something similiar about Cano.
Chemistry is an over hyped. Winning seems to make good chemistry. To me it’s chicken and egg.
There are plenty of examples of teams that won with no chemistry and teams the won with great chemistry.
I will say this, as a fan, good chemistry makes me like a team more. 2009 was great for that reason.
I bet if you asked a Sox fan, they enjoyed 2004 team more then the 2007.
“At what point can too much close friendship amongst players become a detriment when the team chooses to trade or release a popular player.”
They are professional athletes… this is their job not high school.
Javy Vasquez nevr wanted to leave to begin with. He pitched through shoulder tightness in 2004 with a pitching staff of question marks.
George was still in full charge in 2005 and told Cashman to get Randy Johnson under any circumstance. Arizona insisted that Vasquez be included or the deal was off.
Hi:
Chemistry and character are important, but not paramount. A prolonged losing streak or inability to get to the playoffs can bring out the problems on any team, even one with good guys that get along. Certainly, for all the rancor on the late ’80s Yankee squads, they went out and won it all. And for a bunch of multi-millionaires playing a kids’ game, the 2009 team was a great mix of guys who were steady-calm and crazy-fun. Plus, they went out and won. As a fan — and a father, too — it was enjoyable to watch and root for a team that has a blast, plays as a team, and wins.
Oh, NOOOOO!!!! Chimp and Chump are going to be crushed that their beloved Ryan Church is about to be signed by Pittsburgh.
sorry — for all the rancor on the late ’70s squads!!!!
“Jerry Hairston commented on this team having more fun than any team he’s ever been on”
Only team he played on that didn’t suck.
Winning tends to breed chemistry far more than visa versa. In the end it’s about talent. Chemistry is cute to write about and makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy, but it’s always about the talent.
My main concern with Chapman is apparently he never gave the Yankees an opportunity for a private workout. It’s been reported that he gave Toronto a private workout, but why not the Yankees? If true then I’m glad they didn’t sign him.
Erin
January 11th, 2010 at 10:16 am
Bret the Hitman
January 11th, 2010 at 10:11 am
2009 was the opposite. Jerry Hairston commented on this team having more fun than any team he’s ever been on. That and he thought Cano’s talent surprised him the most seeing him up close every day.
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I may be remembering wrong, but I believe Hinske said something similiar about Cano.
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Hinske isn’t the only one that is surprised by Cano’s abilities with the bat and glove. So was Sabathia. Burnett got to see him first hand 18 times a year. No surprise there.
Chemistry is something that comes with winning and communication. A team that loses usually has little chemistry because it is losing. Everyone has a solution in their opinion when losing and most are quiet when they are winning. Granted some players are great teammates while others are a pain, but if the pain is a great player most teams more than welcome it. LOL! No place is ideal. Personally, I think too much emphasis in chemistry is overrated.
William Buckner,
That’s because in 2004 the sox were all hopped up on birth control.
“I bet if you asked a Sox fan, they enjoyed 2004 team more then the 2007.”
Probably. But is chemistry the real reason? I’d think it was more about it being the 1st time in a long time. Think a lot of fans think like that. 1977 and 1996 are my favorites simply because they brought an end to some fairly lengthy dry spells by this franchise’s standards.
GreenBeret7
January 11th, 2010 at 10:21 am
Hinske isn’t the only one that is surprised by Cano’s abilities with the bat and glove. So was Sabathia. Burnett got to see him first hand 18 times a year. No surprise there.
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That’s cool-I’ve never heard Sabathia or Burnett’s thoughts on Cano. I usually always remember when someone heaps praise on Robbie.
More bad news for Johnny Damon – Aubrey Huff is about to sign with San Francisco. Means they probably won’t be in the market for Damon’s services any more (if they ever were).
Here’s my question about Chapman and Cincy: First I want to preface this by saying I am happy to see a team like Cincy take a gamble on Chapman. I think in the past he’s the type of high risk high reward player that a small market team would have passed on due to financial constraints. But because there are financial constraints in Cincy I have to wonder a couple of things:
1. Will the Reds rush him to maximize their investment
2. Will the Reds now be forced into dealing someone (Arroyo, Harang, Phillips) to offset the investment. And could they even find someone to take Harang at this point?
3. Is Dusty Baker the right manager for a team with so much riding on young pitchers?
Could the Mets (for example) make an offer to Cincy like this: Luis Castillo, John Niese and Bobby Parnell to the Reds for Phillips and Arroyo and have the Reds seriously consider it because of the money they would be saving?
blake
January 11th, 2010 at 10:22 am
William Buckner,
That’s because in 2004 the sox were all hopped up on birth control.
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LOL
Off topic comment. Be it the book or movie, To Kill a Mockingbird never gets old.
I think it’s all well and good for us to talk about chemistry but the thing to keep in mind is that we’re outsiders. We’ll never know what the ballplayers are actually thinking or how much chemistry has to do with winning.
I believe it was Teixeira who commented on how impressed he was with Cano.
Frank
My wife and I watched “Anatomy of a Murder” Saturday night, and it, too, never gets old. Great flick.
I absolutely cannot speak to what chemistry adds to winning or what winning adds to chemistry. Not having been there, and all, you know.
However, I can say as a fan it certainly is more fun to root for a bunch of players that are likeable and that seem to get along.
What I think is that this team wanted to get over the hump of one-and-done and finally missing the playoffs altogether and so bought into the manager’s game plan of unselfish play. In that sense, it helps that the actual players involve appear to be unselfish in nature or at least unselfish enough to get the job done.
first off, i’ve never heard nick swisher described as laid back. he’s seems more cranked-up to me.
and when did aj burnett become a high-character player? he was known as a flake, noted for his ink and piercings and considered by florida to be moody and a quitter.
it’s all good when you win…
As an aside – I think Ivan Nova may be pitching himself into the mix for the 5th starter competition this spring. He was dominant in winter league after being very solid for AAA.
Maybe if he shows the Yankees enough they break camp with Joba in the pen, Hughes in AAA to monitor his innings for the first part of the season and Nova in the rotation.
There’s a lot of scuttlebutt (buttlescutt) out there on a one year $5-6 mil return for Damon to the Yankees. Any chance of this happening? Any truth to it at all??
Frank
January 11th, 2010 at 10:26 am
Off topic comment. Be it the book or movie, To Kill a Mockingbird never gets old.
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I LOVE that book. I’ve only seen bits and pieces of the movie.
I disagree.
Chemistry is one small factor that can help maximize talent.
When you are awake, your mind is more alert.
When you are well rested, you can tackle your to-do list.
When you are having fun, you are more relaxed. When you are more relaxed, you complete given tasks with more accuracy.
If you are stressed out, you expend mental energy instead of concentrating on the task at hand.
When you are stress-free, you can invest all of your energy into your work.
When I wake up in the morning to go to work, I will perform better if I slept well and don’t have a lot on my mind. People whose minds are cluttered are out of it at work and they are not as productive.
“That’s because in 2004 the sox were all hopped up on birth control.”
Very true, but I’m happy to know that at some point David Ortiz is going to get back to us about those positive tests.
“Probably. But is chemistry the real reason? I’d think it was more about it being the 1st time in a long time.”
Maybe, but Bill Mueller, Millar, Damon were more colorful and interesting then Lowell and Drew. And therefore will be more memorable for there fans.
“Off topic comment. Be it the book or movie, To Kill a Mockingbird never gets old.”
Wasn’t that Gregory Peck? Awesome character/role.
” I still think the biggest problem was that Chapman right now only seems to care about getting to the majors as quickly as possible and most teams just can not guarantee that to him.”
Betsy,
Do you think before you post your nonsense? How can his wanting to get to the majors as quickly as possible be considered a bad thing? I can assure you 100% of the guys in the minors want to get to the majors as quickly as possible, so your point is moot.
Erin
Tex also has said he was impressed w/ Robbie, and he would probably know better than anyone
GB7
“cantankerocity”…I like it!
Can anyone think of any possible landing spots for Damon other than the Yankees or Braves?
I can’t.
upstate kate
January 11th, 2010 at 10:42 am
Erin
Tex also has said he was impressed w/ Robbie, and he would probably know better than anyone
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Very true!
In short, to say that stress does not affect performance/production is to deny the mind-body connection.
Cano is probably the most talented 2B in baseball..he just hasn’t quite figured out how to maximize that talent yet. He could be a yearly MVP candidate if he ever does.
Bret the Hitman -
If you equate chemistry with stress or the lack thereof, I can buy into that, for sure. Still, no guarantees. Just easier to get the job done for most people.
There are “outliers” who do work best when conditions are stressful, though.
There are “outliers” who do work best when conditions are stressful, though.
—
Maybe their working conditions are always stressful, therefore they can’t compare thier performance to a job what is always fun for them.
People adjust to stress, but it is difficult and requires time and energy.
Negative energy hinders production in the long run and you may burn out running on it all the time.
If the Yankees were concerned about Chapman’s makeup, then it made no sense for Newman to make such positive comments about him to this blog. Consequently, I think Jorge Arangure’s take is spurious.
GB7–I have been impressed how your canterocity rebounded from surgery. Kudos to your surgeon. Now, if he could get you and the others to agree with me more he would have something. Ha.
Put me down as one who doesn’t care about Jeter wedding plans, or lack thereof, unless someone can demonstrate how that impacts his play. Of course, Derek, Minka and I all shopped together last year. It may be slightly more accurate to say we were shopping at the same mall.
Can there be good chemistry on a team like the Pirates, Royals? I’m not sure what it really means? Baseball teams are supposed to win..that’s the object of baseball..score more runs than the other guys more of that the time. The right combination of players that makes that work is the thing isn’t it. If you call that combination “the chemistry” then okay. Otherwise, who cares if they get along in the clubhouse.
upstate kate
January 11th, 2010 at 10:42 am
Erin
Tex also has said he was impressed w/ Robbie, and he would probably know better than anyone
GB7
“cantankerocity”…I like it!
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Some things just don’t have words to describe it. You have to free-wheel some times.
“If the Yankees were concerned about Chapman’s makeup, then it made no sense for Newman to make such positive comments about him to this blog”
Newman spoke of his physical promise more than anything else. That wouldn’t change over concerns about make-up.
austinmac
January 11th, 2010 at 10:57 am
Of course, Derek, Minka and I all shopped together last year. It may be slightly more accurate to say we were shopping at the same mall.
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LOL
I’m jealous all the same!
Erin–There’s more to my Jeter story. He actually held the door open for me coming out of Starbuck’s. I cleverly said “Thanks Derek.” I’m sure that was memorable for him. There’s my brush with greatness.
Sadly, despite being a red blooded American male, I didn’t notice Minka until a few minutes later.
Erin
January 11th, 2010 at 10:45 am
upstate kate
January 11th, 2010 at 10:42 am
Erin
Tex also has said he was impressed w/ Robbie, and he would probably know better than anyone
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Very true!
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Cano can sometimes get a little flat-line in the field. At times, he hasn’t been able to separate bat issues from his defense and vice versa. It doesn’t happen often, but, when he makes an error, they come in bunches. A couple of years ago, he had a 40 something game errorless streak and then made three in one game against the Mets and another 4 in the week, then went almost 40 more games without an error. That’s when he starts scuffling with the bat. Never long, and then he goes on long fielding and hitting streaks.
One thing for sure is that pitchers like Mussina, Pettitte and Rivera love having him at second. If Gaudin is around long, he will too.
austinmac
January 11th, 2010 at 11:06 am
Erin–There’s more to my Jeter story. He actually held the door open for me coming out of Starbuck’s. I cleverly said “Thanks Derek.” I’m sure that was memorable for him. There’s my brush with greatness.
Sadly, despite being a red blooded American male, I didn’t notice Minka until a few minutes later.
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LMAO. You did better than I would-I doubt I’d be able to get any words out at all.
austinmac
January 11th, 2010 at 10:57 am
GB7–I have been impressed how your canterocity rebounded from surgery. Kudos to your surgeon. Now, if he could get you and the others to agree with me more he would have something. Ha.
Put me down as one who doesn’t care about Jeter wedding plans, or lack thereof, unless someone can demonstrate how that impacts his play. Of course, Derek, Minka and I all shopped together last year. It may be slightly more accurate to say we were shopping at the same mall.
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I asked the guy to put a typing and spelling chip in my head or hands, but, he seems to have ignored that. Just thankful that he didn’t mess with my ‘tude.
I’m sure someone has already mentioned (too lazy to look through all the posts) that CC, Tex, Granderson, etc. would be wanted by ANY major league team for the skills. The fact that they’re good dudes is a nice little benefit.
One thing that does strike me about this franchise the last year or so is the commitment to charity and good-will. All of the events Jason Zillo has put together (HOPE week, players greeting the fans at the various gates, etc.) has really shown this organization to be first-rate.
Having great guys like CC, AJ, Swish, etc. to participate in these events really is icing on the cake. I, for one, couldn’t imagine Randy Johnson or Kyle Farnsworth participating in these kinds of events.
“Newman spoke of his physical promise more than anything else. That wouldn’t change over concerns about make-up.”
Newman said that with a little tutelage that Chapman would “take off.” If the Yankees are so concerned about his makeup, I think it’s logical to believe: 1) that they think it is likely to affect his on the field performance; and 2) that it isn’t easily rectifiable.
Consequently, if it truly was/is an issue, it’s probably unlikely that Chapman will just take off, and as s result, Newman would have been more circumspect in his public comments.
Character and chemistry are important for one reason and one reason only.
The fans prefer to watch a likable team. And fans drive the business. Period. End of discussion.
Done.
I’m much less happy with a Kevin Brown / Gary Sheffield / Roger Clemens / Randy Johnson championship team than the one we just won with. That’s for sure. The personalities on this Yankees team are fun but dedicated. When “work” is “fun,” the possibilities are endless.
Character isn’t just something, it’s everything.
Rosenthal on FOX radio said the Pirates are kicking around the idea of offering Damon a one year deal. They’ll probably go with Church though. Figure they can get him pretty cheap. Although if they wait a couple of weeks, they might be able to sign Damon for say, 3 million for a year??
Bet Johnny never thought back in November, Pittsburgh would be a possible landing spot!
its pretty simple about the yankees and chapman. whatever they liked and didnt like about him, they guaged the market and decided he was going to get more than they were interested in paying. you dont have to hate a guy or think he will be a total bust to decide that he’s not worth $30M. you only have to decide that he’s not worth $30M to your team.
anybody who’s seen him pitch can see that he has tremendous potential, that doesn’t mean everybody thinks he’s worth $30M.
Ok, the filter in this site is really screwed up..
DJ McKenna
January 11th, 2010 at 11:27 am
Rosenthal on FOX radio said the Pirates are kicking around the idea of offering Damon a one year deal. They’ll probably go with Church though. Figure they can get him pretty cheap. Although if they wait a couple of weeks, they might be able to sign Damon for say, 3 million for a year??
Bet Johnny never thought back in November, Pittsburgh would be a possible landing spot
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MPB Johnny Damon would call up Cashman long before signing with Pittsburgh for 3 million. No way that happens. He likes winning far too much
Ham Fighters,
And how much did Igawa get? I forgot..
blake
January 11th, 2010 at 11:30 am
Ok, the filter in this site is really screwed up..
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Tell me about it. You can’t say cla-s, but you can type that what alien said
@toad jr. once bitten, twice shy
Rich in NJ:
You make a good point.
I suppose we should also consider that Newman’s opinion is his own and not necessarily the organization’s. Certainly his voice is going to be one of the louder ones in the organization when it comes to things of this nature, but not louder than Cashman’s. Maybe there was disagreement among the higher ups. Maybe there wasn’t and the Yankees pulled out when it was determined that the $$$ was going to be too much.
Either way, I don’t Newman was BS’ing us. He seemed to appreciate the kid’s
“The only thing wrong with the ‘77 and ‘78 Yankee clubhouse was a manager that was as bad a clubhouse influence as Guillen is now, a player that only one player on the team liked (not counting Jackson loving himself) and an owner. Those three gave the other players a common goal besides winning.”
Funny, though, how pennants seemed to follow Martin around.
Hey kiddies! Here’s my (probably) out-of-context post, since hitting-and-running most often involves not looking around!!!
My existential thought for the day is that chemistry and the need for it might be a inverse reflection of what is going on in the surrounding universe. When times are relatively placid, perhaps the need for clubhouse chemistry isn’t as great as when the world is in turmoil – such as now. Anyway that was an off-the-cuff thought. What I really want to add about team chemistry is that the Sux were concerned enough about it that they took a team vote on whether or not to keep Manny Ramirez around and he received one resouding thumbs up – from his roids Buddy Ortiz, no less. So maybe teams value team chemistry a lot more than fans realize.
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About the alleged Jeter nuptials. I don’t much care either. The practical in me says that someone with Jeter’s desire to win doesn’t plan to get married within days of the world series – unless of course his intended doesn’t care a white about his participation in the marriage plans and ceremony – physical or mental.
Anyway
…kid’s potential.
yanks were much more desparate for pitching when they overpaid for igawa. no need to take high risk gambles now.
Erica,
You can’t type cl*ss but rick is just fine.
Don’t worry Damon aint goin to the Pirates.
“yanks were much more desparate for pitching when they overpaid for igawa. no need to take high risk gambles now”
I think Rich’s point may be that Newman did not paint him as a high risk gamble.
Wave Your Hat
January 11th, 2010 at 11:33 am
“The only thing wrong with the ‘77 and ‘78 Yankee clubhouse was a manager that was as bad a clubhouse influence as Guillen is now, a player that only one player on the team liked (not counting Jackson loving himself) and an owner. Those three gave the other players a common goal besides winning.”
Funny, though, how pennants seemed to follow Martin around.
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He won only one WS title as a manager, so, he’s pretty lucky to have talented teams that followed him around.
Martin was a total jerk and destroyed every team that he helped to build. He also killed pitching staffs.
i didnt hear newman put any price tag on the guy, he just spoke of his potential. and my original point was that you can think that a guy has tons of potential but still decide that he’s not worth $30M, which they obviously did.
martin was a total jerk who won. so were tons of other winning managers. baseball is not a popularity contest.
I think people are confusing character with chemistry.
You don’t have to get along with each other to win games (chemistry). It may make things less stressful in the clubhouse but, its not much of a determining factor in wins and losses.
Character is a different deal. You have a team with too many bad apples (or one guy that basically sucks the life out of a clubhouse) its awfully hard to win games on a consistent basis.
Bad character guys ruin clubhouses much more than bad chemistry guys do.
Randy Johnson was a bad chemistry guy. He just wasn’t very likeable. He didn’t ruin that clubhouse.
Mel Hall on the other hand was a BAD character guy. He almost singlehandedly ruined Bernie Williams. Mel sucked the life out of a clubhouse.
Thankfully, Stick got rid of him when he did or he would have ruined Bernie.
“i didnt hear newman put any price tag on the guy, he just spoke of his potential. and my original point was that you can think that a guy has tons of potential but still decide that he’s not worth $30M, which they obviously did.”
Yeah, I mentioned that possibility in my 11:33 post. And Newman did in fact mention he had no idea what it would cost, when discussing Chapman.
I was around the team during Billy’s tenure.
Billy’s problem was his drinking. He was two different guys, and two different managers, depending on how much he as drinking at the time.
In the end, he was drinking so much, he really did kill pitching staffs.
His first term with the Yankees though, he was on top of his game. He may have hated Reggie but, he was excellent in his first go round with the Yankees.
George though knew the Yankees were Billy’s drug of choice and he really made him squirm to keep or get back the job at every turn. IMO, that really took a toll on Billy and excalated the drinking to a point where he couldn’t manage it successfully any longer.
Billy was a great manager who unfortunately couldn’t solve his demons.
“He won only one WS title as a manager, so, he’s pretty lucky to have talented teams that followed him around.”
You really have no clue about Martin – as is often the case, you grouse before you think.
Here’s Martin’s record. Sure he only won one WS, but he consistently made the teams he went to much better:
Twins, 1969. With Martin, finished 1st. Year before without Martin, finished 7th.
Detroit, 1971. Finished 2nd with 91 wins. 1972, finished first. 1970 without Martin, finished 4 with 79 wins.
Yankees, 76-78, finished first. Billy took over a third place club in the last third of 1975.
A’s, 1980, finished second. 1981, finished first. 1979 without Martin, finished seventh.
GB-
The whole infield has improved as a result of Tex’s presence.
Billy did ruin that ’81 A’s pitching staff though. That’s when his drinking was really out of control and he blew out that entire staff’s future. That’s unfortunate.
Did he make teams better? Yes he did. But, his demons in the end not only killed him but, shortened some guys careers.
MLBTR is reporting the Pirates are closing in on a deal with Church. That would take care of that potential Damon landing spot.
SJ44-
Martin came into teams, upset a lot of applecarts, and did seem have a tendency to burn out teams, or at least have diminishing returns – he certainly couldn’t stay long anywhere.
But if you were a team owner and wanted instant improvement, Martin was your man.
“Character isn’t just something, it’s everything.”
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How about Schilling and Johnson?
In their case character and chemistry may be questionable but it’s the other “C” intangible that mattered the most in 2001.
Competitiveness.
Or
“Craft”, as in skill. There’s another C word.
Cajones?
id still pick martin if i had to have one guy manage one game for all the marbles.
Wave,
At the time, yes. However, the cost was very high in the end.
Billy improved teams and left a wake of destruction after he left.
That was the ying and yang of Billy Martin.
These days, a guy like Billy would never get hired, despite the quick improvements he gave teams because the media scrutiny everywhere would destroy a team.
In these days of camera phones, TMZ, the internet, etc, Billy out after a game would be a reality series.
Billy Martin certainly ranks high on the in-your-faceness scale.
Pretty close to a 10.
Our buddy Ozzie G. is around an
8 or 9.
SJ44–I think that was a very clear description of Martin’s addictions and history. He was so much fun to watch and so painful to watch.
Bronx-
“Cajones?”
Out here we call ‘em “Heuvos”, or “Rocky Mtn. Oysters”.
“How about Schilling and Johnson?
In their case character and chemistry may be questionable but it’s the other “C” intangible that mattered the most in 2001.”
Chemistry may have been iffy, but there were zero character questions about character. They both had it. Couple of those other C words you referenced were very much part of their character.
Ok,I knew a Jeter wedding would happen eventually but I’d be lying if it didnt make me a *tiny* bit sad. And yes I realize that that is pathetic lol. Anyway, I’m happy for him if he’s happy. However I do not belive the 11/5 date is happening. Thats a potential parade day
Damon to the Pirates???? I sincerely hope thats not true.
austinmac
January 11th, 2010 at 11:56 am
MLBTR is reporting the Pirates are closing in on a deal with Church. That would take care of that potential Damon landing spot.
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MTU,
Ozzie is a 1 compared to Billy Martin. Ozzie is a PC version of Billy.
Trust me, there was NOBODY like Billy. Maybe Leo Durocher but, even Leo was “soft” compared to Billy.
Billy once punched out a grounds crew guy in Baltimore because he thought the guy was intentionally messing with the mound to benefit Orioles pitchers.
The guy was going to go to the cops and they convinced him not to if he got a Mickey Mantle autographed bat.
Mickey was in Dallas and they flew him into Baltimore to meet the guy and give him a signed bat.
That made it worth (at least to the grounds crew guy), the black eye Billy gave him.
Fortunately, they did a good job of keeping it out of the newspaper since the punch took place in the tunnel and not on the field.
Can’t keep anything out of the media today.
That’s the difference between now and 1977.
Wave Your Hat
January 11th, 2010 at 11:52 am
“He won only one WS title as a manager, so, he’s pretty lucky to have talented teams that followed him around.”
You really have no clue about Martin – as is often the case, you grouse before you think.
Here’s Martin’s record. Sure he only won one WS, but he consistently made the teams he went to much better:
Twins, 1969. With Martin, finished 1st. Year before without Martin, finished 7th.
Detroit, 1971. Finished 2nd with 91 wins. 1972, finished first. 1970 without Martin, finished 4 with 79 wins.
Yankees, 76-78, finished first. Billy took over a third place club in the last third of 1975.
A’s, 1980, finished second. 1981, finished first. 1979 without Martin, finished seventh.
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And he was never able to back it up with the same team. In 16 years of managing, only twice was he able to complete more than two full seasons with a team and only with Oakland did he make it to three. Like I said…he could build a team, but, in the end, he destroyed those teams. He won a division title in his first managing job and was fired. He won in Detroit and was fired at mid season the next. He won a WS with NY and was fired at mid season the next. Only in Oakland did he last three years, but, he wiped out an entire young pitching staff.
A real pity because he was a brilliant manager. His problem was that besides drinking, he made some of the worst choices of coaches…the worst being Art Fowler.
NYY626
January 11th, 2010 at 12:06 pm
Ok,I knew a Jeter wedding would happen eventually but I’d be lying if it didnt make me a *tiny* bit sad. And yes I realize that that is pathetic lol. Anyway, I’m happy for him if he’s happy. However I do not belive the 11/5 date is happening. Thats a potential parade day
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Agree completely-it makes me depressed to think of Derek getting married, irrational as it may be. LOL Who knows whether they’re actually engaged or not (although I’m betting they are), but I’m not buying the November wedding date.
SJ-
Wow !
Gotta work on my scaling.
billy was a baseball genius, a paranoid schizophrenic and a mean drunk, but more than anything, billy martin was a yankee.
billy’s epitaph: “I may not have been the greatest Yankee to put on the uniform but I was the proudest. ”
its worth the trip to go to the Gates of Heaven cemetery in hawthorne where he is buried right up the hill from the babe.
SJ, nice distinctions between chemistry and character…Fortunately, with this team, we have good chemistry AND good character guys.
SJ, nice distinctions between chemistry and character…Fortunately, with this team, we have good chemistry AND good character guys.
With all of the Billy Martin talk, I couldn’t help myself:
STEINBRENNER: You know as painfull as it is I had to let a few people go over the years. Yogi Berra, Lou Pinella, Bucky Dent, Billy Martin, Dallas Green, Dick Houser, Bill Virdon, Billy Martin, Scott Marrow, Billy Martin, Bob Lemmon, Billy Martin, Gene Michael, Buck Showalter, … uh, tut!, . . .George, you didn’t hear that from me. [George exits] . . . George!
MTU
January 11th, 2010 at 11:53 am
GB-
The whole infield has improved as a result of Tex’s presence.
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Yeah, Jeter definately won a gold glove because of Teixeira and he also was a huge benefit to Rodriguez fielding. Not sure how much more he improved Cano, because almost every throw Cano made to first was chest high in the center of the bag.
SJ-
I would taken 2 black eyes, or
one broken nose for that bat !
GB-
I thing it might have allowed Cano to get to a few more balls up the middle since he could shade that way at times.
I heard Cano is gonna lend Jeter his Island for the wedding.
Billy won where ever he was.. what a great Yankee, warts and all. BTW I tried buying a a #1 Martin jersay around the shops at the stadium this season..no one is selling them..can someone tell me how can how I can get my hands on a Martin jersey?E-Bay? One of my greatest moments as fan was being at the stadium at Old Timers day in 1978 when Billy was reintroduced to be the next manager. There was an incredible buzz and rumors going around the park that day and when he was introduced, he brought the house down…the ovation went on forever it seemed and I was clapping as hard as I possibly could for as long as possible.What a moment that was!!
Martin understood baseball – he was very good at coming to a team, understanding who should play and when – even when it flew in the face of conventional wisdom. IMO, he was much better at that than Ozzie is today.
He was also able to get the most out of players through an in-your-face confrontational style.
The combination of those factors improved every team he went to considerably, which was my original point.
Over time, the in-your-face approach had diminishing returns and when combined with his innate arrogance and character flaws eventually became counterproductive and would lead to his firing.
He’d go somewhere else and the cycle would start all over.
“Mel Hall on the other hand was a BAD character guy.”
I still remember listening to a Yankees game on the radio when I was 12 or 13 years old. Hall was still playing for the Indians at that time (before his Yankee playing days). The pitcher threw inside and Hall was incensed and, as I recall, started toward the mound with a bat in his hand before being tackled by the catcher.
Martin had many things in common with Casey Stengel. Both were outstanding/brilliant managers, both could be charming and funny, both drank too much and both were at too many times crude, cruel and spiteful.
Here’s the revised IYF scaling:
(Torre) 0 ——> 10 (Martin)
SJ,
“I was around the team during Billy’s tenure.”
In what capacity?
If Martin had had his way, Ron Guidry would have been shipped off to the White Sox during ST of 1977, because Martin couldn’t stand him, because thought Guidry was gutless. If he didn’t like a player, he tried getting him traded or just wouldn’t play him. He did the same thing to Elliott Maddox in Texas. In 1975, he had no choice with Maddox because he had torn up his knee before martin got there.
IF you’re going to call Martin a “mean drunk” you need to balance the portrait.
He was also one of the kindest, most soft-hearted people around. He loved kids.
Fair is fair.
Yankees have a great group of guys, with good images. Joe doesn’t need the drama kings.
I wonder if Cashman will bring back Molina, or force AJ to work with the catchers on the roster? Last year the, Who will catch for AJ, was distracting.
If Damon signs with the Pirates, how could he ever live with that steep of a pay cut, after turning down the Yankees 2/14M? He says he won’t take a 50% pay cut.
As for Damon and the Yankees, he has to be resentful by now. If he were to come back would he be the same? I read that the front office was concerned about his disposition too, if he were to bring him back at a lower amount.
first of all read the whole quote, its very balanced. secondly, who would deny that martin was a mean drunk?
He loved kids when he was sober. Less so when he was drunk.
I saw Billy in both settings quite often.
He definitely had a soft side.
He was also one of the meanest drunks I’ve ever seen.
Its a shame he couldn’t control his demons because he wasn’t a bad guy.
The drinking though was something that transformed him into a bad guy, which is a shame.
Gary Sheffield,need I say more? He was a great at bat, but was so jealous of Jeter, et al that it kept the team from melding as a cohesive group.
Some of this I understand, was augmented by Torre playing favorites with the players.
Quality guy that CC
http://www.facebook.com/photo......1318826798
Igawa has great chemistry just doesn’t have the talent. We paid $24 M for him. surprised that we didn’t take a chance on a rare talent. We’ll see where he is in 5 years and maybe he will fit into our plans then.