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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Cardinals checking Wang’s medical records

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 19, 2010 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

It’s a fairly small item in a weekend Post-Dispatch story,* but it seems the Cardinals are actively checking Chien-Ming Wang’s medical records.

St. Louis pitching coach Dave Duncan — Shelley’s father — has a strong history of working with sinkerballers and reclamation projects, and given Matt Holliday’s contract, it makes sense that that Cardinals would be interested in a fairly cheap, risk-reward type pitcher (the Post-Dispatch also mentions John Smoltz and Derrick Turnbow).

For Wang, the destination might make sense because the Cardinals depth chart doesn’t even list a fifth starter. Wang won’t be ready for opening day, but a door could open fairly easily for him to back into a big league rotation once he’s ready. 

* Nice job by iYankees to pick up the Post-Dispatch story. I completely missed it on Sunday.

Some other happenings on what is so far another slow day for Yankees news.

• Apparently the Tigers really are going to let Phil Coke compete for a spot in the rotation. Coke throws a changeup and worked as a starter through almost all of his minor league career, but things took off when he moved to the bullpen. Not sure why Detroit would want to mess with that, but I’m hardly an expert on Coke’s starting potential. Hope it works out for him, whatever his role.

• Take Huston Street off the 2010 winter wish list. Colorado has signed Street to a three-year deal with an option for a fourth. He would otherwise have been a free agent after this season.

• Speaking of long-term deals, Keith Law reports that the Mariners have wisely locked up Felix Hernandez on a five-year deal. Hernandez and Josh Johnson were the subject of much debate and desire earlier this winter, but it’s almost impossible for any team to trade for that sort of young, front-line starter. The Mariners are clearly trying to build a winner, and keeping Hernandez makes a lot more sense than dealing him.

• Our good friend Bryan Hoch answered some mailbag questions over at the Yankees official site. He notes that the Yankees did not watch Ben Sheets throw today and that it’s unlikely Sheets fits in their budget.

• One last item. Everyone’s favorite ex-Yankees starter Carl Pavano has signed a $7-million deal with the Twins. Pavano allowed more earned runs than any other pitcher in the American League last season.

 
 

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148 Responses to “Cardinals checking Wang’s medical records”

  1. Dela G January 19th, 2010 at 3:08 pm

    “Cardinals checking Wang’s medical records”

    man, this is like throwing a softball down the middle of the plate… ha too easy

  2. S.o.S. January 19th, 2010 at 3:09 pm

    Frank,
    Players IMO that would never be Yankees.

    Whos your daddy
    F&*@ face
    Ketchup
    Ooogly
    Kibler
    Im pregnant
    C-oward in a mask
    The sox newly signed Kermit the frog
    The man they call Nancy

    Did i miss anyone?

  3. ko January 19th, 2010 at 3:10 pm

    Still can’t believe the Yankees didn’t re-sign Wang. He’s just a year and a half away from having been the Yankee ace.
    While other teams are checking out Wang’s arm, someone ought to be checking out Cashman’s brain

  4. Broken Wang January 19th, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    Will they be able to yell “CBO” (changing batting order for all non brooklynites out there)every time Wang’s turn at bat comes up on the days he’s pitching?

  5. Frank January 19th, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    Cardinals would be a nice landing spot for Wang, IMO. Good team, a pitching coach who has enjoyed success with reclamation projects, NL, pretty decent pitcher’s park, and most important of all, the opportunity to start as soon as he is physically ready to go.

  6. Frank January 19th, 2010 at 3:16 pm

    SOS:

    Agree on all of them, but we’d have been saying about Jesus Damon 5 years ago too.

  7. Broken Wang January 19th, 2010 at 3:16 pm

    Did i miss anyone?

    Papschmear?

  8. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? January 19th, 2010 at 3:16 pm

    randy l -

    If you’re here, isn’t St. Louis where you thought Wang should end up? :)

    I simply wish the best for Wang. Another one I’ll personally miss.

    Sheesh, it’s getting so that there are several players whose progress I’ll want to monitor a bit even though they’re not on the Yankees anymore. Of course, when playing the Yankees, they’ll be “the enemy.”

    I hope the medicals check out and the Cardinals give Wang a contract.

  9. S.o.S. January 19th, 2010 at 3:16 pm

    If Wang cant get back to throwing 95-96 i dont think he will be a top of the rotation guy. He was throwing in the low 90′s last year and the sinker wasnt sinking. Which we all saw what the result was. I could be wrong, but i think the high velocity made it a heavier ball to hit and obviously not as much time to react.

  10. Rick January 19th, 2010 at 3:18 pm

    RE-POST FROM PREVIOUS THREAD …..

    Re: Beckett

    Highly unlikely Beckett will re-sign with Boston. He’ll want at least Lackey money and for the same amount of years (5) which Boston won’t do. He’s watched Pedroia, Youkilis, and Lester sign for hometown discounts and will be up for the last big contract of his career.
    Beckett is a Texas boy and once the ownership of the Rangers is resolved, he’s high on their priority list.

  11. champ809 January 19th, 2010 at 3:19 pm

    makes sense for both sides. I love the Wanger and really want the Yanks to bring himback but if not I think The Cards,Mariners and the Dodgers in that order make the most sense for Wang to consider.

  12. Frank January 19th, 2010 at 3:20 pm

    “He’s watched Pedroia, Youkilis, and Lester sign for hometown discounts”

    None of these signed for hometown discounts.

  13. Erin January 19th, 2010 at 3:20 pm

    Very interesting that Coke is going to get to compete for a spot in the rotation.

  14. Frank January 19th, 2010 at 3:23 pm

    SOS:

    Regarding Wang, perhaps you recall the littany of exchanges (mostly involving Randy and CB if memory serves)about the havoc injuries played with Wang’s mechanics/release point. If anyone can fix that, it’s the current pitching coach in St.Louis. I think that’s a great match for Wang.

  15. kd January 19th, 2010 at 3:24 pm

    rick,

    beckett might be the next ‘beloved’ red sox to get run out of town. they’ll leak they offered him more money after he signs somewhere else.

  16. S.o.S. January 19th, 2010 at 3:24 pm

    Frank,
    The difference is Caveman was only an idiot just like Millar. Fun people to be around(just guessing). I believe it was Damon who said he would never play for the Yankees. Gotta admit i was surprised of the signing though. I think the Yankees turned the page in just signing anyone with decent numbers and are now also looking at the makeup of the person.

    Questions Cashman probably asks now
    Are they a CLUBHOUSE guy?
    How would he fit in with the rest of the team chemistry wise?
    Will he get bent for getting a pie in the face?
    What is his favorite candy?
    Does he like YMCA or Cotton eye joe?
    Do you like punching walls?
    What do you think about mullets?

  17. Jerkface January 19th, 2010 at 3:25 pm

    a couple of years ago , i was having dinner after a twins triple a game with the coaching staff. in between wings and beers, they were talking about a kid third baseman who had came up from double a and played third that night. they basically said deer in headlights and what were they going to do with him.

    they concluded they were going to have to teach him how to play at that level since he really wasn’t ready.
    that kid in last year’s mlb playoffs came up with the tying or winning run in the last inning with i think two outs and after a lengthy at bat knocked a ground ball up the middle to tie or win the game. tolleson was his name i think. that was twins baseball right there.

    the point is ,as you say, teaching the young players how to play.

    I really have to address this, because its ridiculous. The Twins lack of statistical emphasis on players and ‘old school approach’ created matt tolbert, who hit .232/.303/.308 in 231 PA last season. Yes, the Twins gave 200+ PA’s to an infielder who OPS’d .611. Fantastic organization.

    Just because they don’t use stats or teach people to bunt, doesn’t make them an exceptional organization. I’d say the kind of scouting they do and the types of players they draft allows them to get a bunch of low-risk, low-reward players that reach the majors. They end up with a ton of utility infielders who can slap the ball (which might work in the dome but we’ll see in Target field) and hardly any impact players.

    Their pitchers are mostly low-k, strike throwers, which can also have some impact at the majors but isn’t a winning philosophy.

  18. Ed H. January 19th, 2010 at 3:25 pm

    “Pavano allowed more earned runs than any other pitcher in the American League last season.”

    Yeah, but at least he’s durable. :)

  19. Erin January 19th, 2010 at 3:28 pm

    S.o.S.
    January 19th, 2010 at 3:24 pm

    Questions Cashman probably asks now
    Are they a CLUBHOUSE guy?
    How would he fit in with the rest of the team chemistry wise?
    Will he get bent for getting a pie in the face?
    What is his favorite candy?
    Does he like YMCA or Cotton eye joe?
    Do you like punching walls?
    What do you think about mullets?

    *****************************
    LOL
    I can just picture Cashman asking somebody what their favorite candy is. ;)

  20. Jerkface January 19th, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    “Pavano allowed more earned runs than any other pitcher in the American League last season.”

    This is misleading. He gave up 113 ER in 199.1 IP. Luke Hochevar for KC gave up 104 ER in 143 IP. Giving Pavano a 1.44 ERA in the extra innings he pitched over Hochevar.

  21. Bill January 19th, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    Gosh that pavano has a good thing going

  22. Rick January 19th, 2010 at 3:29 pm

    Frank
    January 19th, 2010 at 3:20 pm
    “He’s watched Pedroia, Youkilis, and Lester sign for hometown discounts”

    None of these signed for hometown discounts.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Oh ? Look up Cot’s contract site and tell me they’re not hometown discounts.

  23. S.o.S. January 19th, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    “Pavano allowed more earned runs than any other pitcher in the American League last season.”

    Yeah, but at least he’s durable.

    ========

    Also, got something in the baseball dictionary called after him. PAVANOED.
    Place of origin Italian
    Used in a sentence.

    Oh?! Thats unfortunate. It looks like (insert any name)will probably be PAVANOED for at least a month.

  24. Frank January 19th, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    “beckett might be the next ‘beloved’ red sox to get run out of town. they’ll leak they offered him more money after he signs somewhere else.”

    Word is, he’d prefer to stay in Boston. Question is where does he expect to be paid? For reasons I explained in the previous blog entry, I don’t see him being paid at the level of the highest level of the elite (Hallday, CC). He probably fits somewhere in between those guys and the Burnett, Lackey crowd (honestly not sure where Lee fits in this – probably a little more than Beckett – lefthandedness rocks!). If he’s asking for Sabathia money, he won’t get from Boston…or anywhere else. If he’s in the $18M, maybe $19M range, they may bite.

  25. S.o.S. January 19th, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    They end up with a ton of utility infielders who can slap the ball (which might work in the dome but we’ll see in Target field) and hardly any impact players.

    ======

    Can i add.
    Also, Players who purposely run into first basemans?

  26. iYankees January 19th, 2010 at 3:34 pm

    Thanks for the h/t, Chad!

  27. Jerkface January 19th, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    Rich never responded to Randy on this, but being ‘state of the art’ does not imply merely a technical advantage. I guess thats how things are usually construed but look at this definition:

    The state of the art is the highest level of development, as of a device, technique, or scientific field, achieved at a particular time.

    In terms of SCOUTING, the ‘state of the art’ could be the way the Twins employ a rather large scouting force focusing on smaller specific areas and then using a ton of crosscheckers to make sure that their scouting catches everything.

    They could have devised techniques for scouting that allow scouts to do more scouting, or more accurate scouting. They could use better technology that is non-stat related (radar guns, whatever) that make for eyeballing things easier.

    It doesn’t necessarily mean they use stats, I think this is what Rich meant when he said Cash wants the Yankee scouts up to that standard.

  28. GreenBeret7 January 19th, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    Boston seems to be repeating the same player trashing and medical misinformation over and over again. The last one was Jason Bay, when they dropped their offer for Bay and put out the word that they had issues with both of Bay’s knees, based only on their team doctors’ reports. The same “issues” didn’t seem to come up with teams. Is it just another attempt to drive down salaries of players they were trying to sign? Sure seems that way. One or maybe two times might be explained away, but, a repeated tactic that will end up biting them rather soon, I’d think.

  29. Nick in SF in Larkspur January 19th, 2010 at 3:36 pm

    “Everyone’s favorite ex-Yankees starter Carl Pavano has signed a $7-million deal with the Twins. Pavano allowed more earned runs than any other pitcher in the American League last season.”

    Too bad the Twins don’t have a stats department. :(

  30. Frank January 19th, 2010 at 3:40 pm

    “Oh ? Look up Cot’s contract site and tell me they’re not hometown discounts.”

    A hometown discount implies that they could have played for more money elsewhere. They couldn’t. Their cases are no different than Cano’s, or Longoria’s, or Wright’s and more recently Josh Johnson and Felix Hernandez. They all traded some arb/free agent years for security, rather than going year to year for 5 or 6 years. It’s getting to be a pretty common practice.

  31. haiku-man January 19th, 2010 at 3:41 pm

    Right now on St Louis radio, with Kevin Slaten is Goose Gossage eats up McGwire http://www.team1380.net listen live. Kevin Slaten is taking it to Larussa and McGwire.

  32. Chip January 19th, 2010 at 3:42 pm

    Wang with Dave Duncan would be a great match.

    I don’t see anything wrong with the Tigers letting Coke compete for a starting spot. Behind Verlander, Scherzer and Porcello they don’t really have anyone who deserves a spot locked in stone for them and with a pen of Schlereth, Zumaya, Perry, and now Valverde they have plenty of depth out there so losing Coke won’t kill their pen.

  33. iiicollies January 19th, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    Wasn’t Cashman rumored to say earlier during Hot Stove that the Yankees will match whatever any other team will offer Wang?

  34. Erin January 19th, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    iiicollies
    January 19th, 2010 at 3:45 pm
    Wasn’t Cashman rumored to say earlier during Hot Stove that the Yankees will match whatever any other team will offer Wang?

    *******************
    iiicollies, I heard something to that effect too. I’m hoping they will!! :)

  35. Frank January 19th, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    “Wasn’t Cashman rumored to say earlier during Hot Stove that the Yankees will match whatever any other team will offer Wang?”

    He said he’s consider it.

    Consider this though, If the Cards make an offer and Cashman matches it, why would Wang want to take the Yankees offer?

  36. Frank January 19th, 2010 at 3:48 pm

    *he’D consider it.

  37. Bret Gardener January 19th, 2010 at 3:51 pm

    Teams are getting wise and locking up their players before they hit the market.

    Everyone needs to get over Wang. We won without him, and will continue to do so. He had his opportunity to come back last year, and couldn’t do it. It’s done and over with. If a team wants to waste their money on a has-been pitcher then let them.

  38. upstate kate January 19th, 2010 at 3:54 pm

    Good for Phil Coke. Despite the occasional HRs he was a valuable member of the BP. I think people forget how valuable he was before Phil H turned into the EIG.
    (I will admit I have a soft spot for Coke b/c he was a wrestler in HS as was my son.)

  39. Nick in SF January 19th, 2010 at 3:59 pm

    “Wasn’t Cashman rumored to say earlier during Hot Stove that the Yankees will match whatever any other team will offer Wang?”

    Not quite. It was reported that the Yankees would like the CHANCE to match any offer. We’ll see.

    Personally, I don’t want Wang getting mixed up with that bad seed Mark McGwire. :(

  40. jpb1973 January 19th, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    Take Huston Street off the 2010 winter wish list. Colorado has signed Street to a three-year deal with an option for a fourth. He would otherwise have been a free agent after this season.

    =============================================================

    This is awful news. I was hoping that Street, along with Carl Crawford and Cliff Lee, would become Yankees next winter.

    I wonder if a lot of next year’s FA’s are getting cold feet about testing the waters. This year’s free agents have, for the most part, gotten less than they expected. Maybe these players are starting to think that ‘a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush’.

  41. Rob A from BBD January 19th, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    Bronx Baseball Daily had a link to a different article yesterday that said the same thing.

  42. Jerkface January 19th, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    Personally, I don’t want Wang getting mixed up with that bad seed Mark McGwire.

    Maybe if Wang had manned up and used HGH he could have come back faster. (viagra joke in there somewhere)

  43. randy l. January 19th, 2010 at 4:06 pm

    “I really have to address this, because its ridiculous. ”

    jerkface-

    it sounds like you are exactly the kind of baseball fan who needs sabermetrics as a GPS to find your way around the game.

    but as i said, nothing wrong with that if it gets you where you’re going.

    maybe rich in nj can jump in at some point and say what he meant about the twins minor league system.

    all i know is that i’ve seen it up close and it’s low tech. and that i find it ironic that cashman wants to emulate it.

    and my point about tolleson was that he isn’t that good , but he came up into a situation ,and because of his training, figured out a way to get the job done.
    that’s twins baseball.

    the yankees kind of beat you because they are just really good.

  44. Patrick January 19th, 2010 at 4:08 pm

    “Maybe if Wang had manned up and used HGH he could have come back faster. (viagra joke in there somewhere)”

    Wang is clearly not a team player, unlike Mark McGwire who would do anything to help his team win.

  45. Patrick January 19th, 2010 at 4:10 pm

    I’m not sure how the Twins are able to succeed in today’s game. I mean, there’s a reason why every team but the Twins and one or two others have a statistics department – it does help in evaluating players.

    I guess the Twins have really good scouts, coaches and instructors.

    They are competitive every year but I think they’d be even better if they put some more emphasis on stats.

  46. Laura January 19th, 2010 at 4:10 pm

    First, the Twins build an outdoor stadium in Minnesota. Now, they sign American Idle for $7M. Did an NBC executive take over running the Twins organization while I wasn’t looking? :)

  47. Pris January 19th, 2010 at 4:10 pm

    This is from MLBTR

    “Between Cleveland and Minnesota, Pavano posted a 5.10 ERA in 199.1 innings, 53.2 more than he threw in his four years with the Yankees.”

    You think Pavano’s fragile body can hold up in the new ball park?

  48. Patrick from CT January 19th, 2010 at 4:11 pm

    Wang needs a fresh start and the Cards are a good fit.
    He’d be way down the depth chart on the Yankees.

  49. Arno January 19th, 2010 at 4:13 pm

    Bring back Wang!!

  50. Erin January 19th, 2010 at 4:13 pm

    Pris
    January 19th, 2010 at 4:10 pm
    You think Pavano’s fragile body can hold up in the new ball park?

    *************************
    Doubtful. Very doubtful. ;)

  51. Don Capone January 19th, 2010 at 4:14 pm

    I wish the Yanks would re-sign Wang. Why do we take on other team’s reclamation projects (Mitre, anyone?), but not our own? And Wang is a 2-time 19 game winner and still young. I don’t think he wants to leave. Surely an incentive-laden contract could be worked out.

  52. Patrick January 19th, 2010 at 4:14 pm

    Pavano was actually kind of good last year. That’s a good signing especially when you consider a guy like Brad Penny signed for more money.

  53. james January 19th, 2010 at 4:14 pm

    7 million for glass Carl and Damon gets what? At best the American Idle is mediocre why do starters get this kind of money it’s nonsense

  54. randy l. January 19th, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    “If you’re here, isn’t St. Louis where you thought Wang should end up?”

    doreen-

    after jerkface or crawdaddy mentioned that st louis was a great place for sinker ballers because duncan pushes it with pitchers with great success, i said that i could see wang going there and being very successful.

    i can’t remember which one said it, jerkface or crawdaddy, because they both are equally annoying at times. i get them confused.

    but whichever one said, it was a very good point.

    i try to never ignore good info no matter the source :)

  55. Jerkface January 19th, 2010 at 4:17 pm

    it sounds like you are exactly the kind of baseball fan who needs sabermetrics as a GPS to find your way around the game.

    but as i said, nothing wrong with that if it gets you where you’re going.

    maybe rich in nj can jump in at some point and say what he meant about the twins minor league system.

    all i know is that i’ve seen it up close and it’s low tech. and that i find it ironic that cashman wants to emulate it.

    and my point about tolleson was that he isn’t that good , but he came up into a situation ,and because of his training, figured out a way to get the job done.
    that’s twins baseball.

    First of all I resent the GPS remark. Most sabermetric fans are probably smart enough to recognize the talents required to play baseball. Its not like Scouts are some mystical wizards, its just you can’t see everything from a stat sheet and scouts are the only guys who’ll live on the road for peanuts and watch players in a farm field.

    TOLBERT (not tolleson) is a bad example of a ‘good’ farm system because while he succeeded in your 1 cherry picked situation, he failed more often than even some of the worst players in baseball.

    He was a bad baseball player last year. Matt DeSavlo once threw like a CG SHO, or something like 7 IP 0 R, that doesn’t mean the yankee farm system is awesome and they totally prepared Matt to do that.

    Tolbert in the Minors is a .700 OPS type player, and he was a college kid too. Had a different system developed Tolbert maybe he’d be a better player, and then there would not have been a 1 game playoff because the Twins would have won a respectable amount of games. I mean he hit .182/.182/.273 in the 4 games prior vs DET that if the Twins had won 1 more of would have removed the need for the playoff.

    And you’ve missed the point. It doesn’t matter if its ‘low tech’, low tech and state-of-the-art are not mutually exclusive. Its about results.

  56. Wave Your Hat January 19th, 2010 at 4:17 pm

    Don’t ask yourself why the Yanks don’t sign Wang. Ask yourself why Wang would sign with the Yanks. Looked at that way, I think you will understand that Wang isn’t coming back.

  57. pat January 19th, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    heard king felix to get a $3.5 mil signing bonus and make $20 mil in 2014, final year of 5-year deal (counting prorated sb) 15 minutes ago from web

  58. Nick in SF January 19th, 2010 at 4:27 pm

    “Ask yourself why Wang would sign with the Yanks.”

    One reason would be money — if they offer his as much or more than another team.

    Wang also makes a lot in endorsements in Taiwan. He probably still would as a Cardinal, especially if going to St. Louis provides his best chance at being a successful big leaguer again, but there’s potentially a bigger payday in Wang being a New York Yankee.

  59. randy l. January 19th, 2010 at 4:29 pm

    “I’m not sure how the Twins are able to succeed in today’s game. I mean, there’s a reason why every team but the Twins and one or two others have a statistics department – it does help in evaluating players.”

    patrick-

    it helps you, patrick, evaluate players. it doesn’t help the twins. it doesn’t help me. baseball is played with clubs and balls( rocks). it’s a game. it’s not that complicated unless you ant to make it complicated.

    i’m actually impressed with statistical analysis that it can allow total newcomers to the game know as much as they do.

    if you had to say how sabermetrics or statistical analysis has changed the game , what would you say it’s done.

    i’d say that it’s increased the awareness of the value in a walk or not giving up an out.

    what else? surely there’s something.

    maybe i’m missing something.

    oh yeah, there’s the new trend that defense matters ( dripping sarcasm).

    i think the twins do well without statistical analysis because they have people who just don’t need it. it’s just not that important.

  60. stuckey January 19th, 2010 at 4:30 pm

    “7 million for glass Carl and Damon gets what? At best the American Idle is mediocre why do starters get this kind of money it’s nonsense”

    Because what actually qualifies as an average starter/player in the Major Leagues is not in line with that fans think is or should be an average starter.

  61. randy l. January 19th, 2010 at 4:31 pm

    “First of all I resent the GPS remark.”

    no, you resemble that remark, but let me read your post. this should be fun.

  62. SJ44 January 19th, 2010 at 4:32 pm

    He has had 2 major shoulder surgeries and a Liz Franc fracture in his career.

    Meaning, the days of him throwing a 95-96 MPH sinker are probably over. He will have to learn how to pitch effectively with lesser stuff.

    Who better to learn that from than Dave Duncan? He’s the best pitching coach in the world and his record for reviving guys careers is second to none in the game.

    If I was representing Wang, regardless of the money, I would steer him to St.Louis.

    Its his best shot to revive his career, IMO.

  63. Jerkface January 19th, 2010 at 4:32 pm

    I’m not sure how the Twins are able to succeed in today’s game. I mean, there’s a reason why every team but the Twins and one or two others have a statistics department – it does help in evaluating players.

    Even blind, old scouts can find good players, its not like scouts or ‘old school’ methods are the worst. I think their old stadium helped a lot with the kind of players they collected. But they haven’t won a world series in a while and they may never until they start being smarter.

  64. Nick in SF January 19th, 2010 at 4:34 pm

    No statistical analysis + having Joe Mauer seems to be a good formula. More teams should use that model. :)

  65. pat January 19th, 2010 at 4:35 pm

    MikeSilvermanBB So Vlad G knocks out Pap/’09 #RedSox & gets $8.5M salary cut to $6.5M, while Pap’s paycheck goes up $3.1M to $9.35? Nice gig. Youth served.
    10 minutes ago from web

  66. Jerkface January 19th, 2010 at 4:36 pm

    No statistical analysis + having Joe Mauer seems to be a good formula. More teams should use that model.

    A small change from No statistical analysis + Johan Santana which served so well. They are really looking outside the box, maybe they should let Joe Mauer walk!

  67. Wave Your Hat January 19th, 2010 at 4:36 pm

    Nick-

    The Yanks aren’t going to offer Wang more than any other team, for the same reason Wang would be unlikely to take a Yank offer, IMO. There’s no spot for him at the major league level even if he is successful in his rehab.

  68. GreenBeret7 January 19th, 2010 at 4:36 pm

    pat
    January 19th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
    heard king felix to get a $3.5 mil signing bonus and make $20 mil in 2014, final year of 5-year deal (counting prorated sb) 15 minutes ago from web

    ————————————————————

    It should be interesting to see who wins the Lincecum/SF Giants arbitration fight….Lincecum at $13 mil or the Giants at $8 mil.

  69. SJ44 January 19th, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    Bottom line, you can read a stat sheet or be into statistical analysis until you are blue in the face.

    Its all about the benjamins. Money controls the game.

    The Twins are given a budget to work with and do more with less than anybody in baseball. If they had a bigger budget, and still stayed away from heavy statistical analysis, they would do better because their fundamentals (the way they evaluate and teach players) are superior to many teams.

    However, payroll constraints limit them.

    Oakland has turned almost their entire organization into a sabermetrically based model, have more money to work with than the Twins, and don’t come close to being as competitive.

    Its not traditional scouting vs. sabermetrics. Its doing the most you can with the money your owner gives you.

    The Twins do it better than just about anybody.

  70. m January 19th, 2010 at 4:38 pm

    I still get a laugh at Phil Coke pointing up for pop-fly homeruns.

    And I don’t know why we have to get over Wang yet!

  71. pat January 19th, 2010 at 4:39 pm

    GB

    All Lincecums agent needs to say is Pavano got $7M. Case closed.

  72. Nick in SF January 19th, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    “The Yanks aren’t going to offer Wang more than any other team”

    If they don’t, he won’t have a chance to accept their higher offer, will he? That’s kind of circular logic.

    You asked why Wang would accept a Yankee offer. I think money is a pretty good reason why Wang or any other player would accept a Yankee offer — both the money he would make from the Yankees and the money he would make by BEING a Yankee.

    If the Yanks don’t offer the same/most money, it’s obviously a moot point.

  73. Wave Your Hat January 19th, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    “it helps you, patrick, evaluate players. it doesn’t help the twins. it doesn’t help me. baseball is played with clubs and balls( rocks). it’s a game. it’s not that complicated unless you ant to make it complicated.”

    randy-

    You are one of my favorites around here but you are just wrong about this. Statistics, properly used (and I repeat that, properly used), are a key to better understanding just about everything. So it would be extremely surprising if statistics do not lead to a better understanding of baseball too.

  74. braeden January 19th, 2010 at 4:44 pm

    What is the chance Wang will want to “run the bases” in an NL park on a regular basis?

  75. Jerkface January 19th, 2010 at 4:45 pm

    What is the chance Wang will want to “run the bases” in an NL park on a regular basis?

    He may want to conquer his fear

  76. m January 19th, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    If there was a place for Wang in the Yankee rotation and the money was right, why wouldn’t Wang sign?

    Everyone can say this and that about how he was treated, but I’m sure that Wang enjoyed his tenure in New York for the most part.

  77. Peter R January 19th, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    I am a big fan of Chien Ming but I sadly don’t see him coming back. As said above…there is just no room for him without taking away Phil/Joba spot agian. And I don’t think he will be happy hanging out with AAA All-star Kei in Scranton.

    I know, someone will get hurt down the line and there will be room in the rotation but the point is Wang will go where there is place for him to develop again into a starter and sadly that place is not the NY summer in a dead heat pennant race with the triple-ace Boston rotation and Baltimore’s young guns.

    Wang is a good guy and fun to root for but I don’t think he is coming back….unless we snatch him away from someone again later when he got his grove back :-D

  78. GreenBeret7 January 19th, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    pat
    January 19th, 2010 at 4:39 pm
    GB

    All Lincecums agent needs to say is Pavano got $7M. Case closed.

    ————————————————————

    This will be knew territory for the arbitrators. They haven’t had a pitcher go through that process after only 2 and a half seasons with that much success since arbitration first began. Possibly not in the last 40+ years (without looking). Johan Santana was the only one that was close.

  79. Say what? January 19th, 2010 at 4:47 pm

    What the is the Yanks?

    It’s Yankees, YANKEES!!

  80. Wave Your Hat January 19th, 2010 at 4:48 pm

    “If there was a place for Wang in the Yankee rotation and the money was right, why wouldn’t Wang sign?”

    If wishes were horses…

  81. GreenBeret7 January 19th, 2010 at 4:48 pm

    This will be knew territory

    Hopefully everyone ***knew*** this is ***new*** territory.

  82. Broken Wang January 19th, 2010 at 4:49 pm

    pat
    January 19th, 2010 at 4:35 pm
    MikeSilvermanBB So Vlad G knocks out Pap/’09 #RedSox & gets $8.5M salary cut to $6.5M, while Pap’s paycheck goes up $3.1M to $9.35? Nice gig. Youth served.
    10 minutes ago from web
    ******************************************************
    add to that Matsui winning the WS for the yankees and gets a $7 million paycut and Damon single footedly winning game #4 and getting about a 8 – 10 million dollar paycut. But Gaudin who pitched a total of 1 meaningless inning in the playoffs and was average to below average at best in the regular season gets close to a 50% pay raise..

    morale of the story? Mama’s let your babies grow up to be pitchers…

  83. Jerkface January 19th, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    add to that Matsui winning the WS for the yankees and gets a $7 million paycut and Damon single footedly winning game #4 and getting about a 8 – 10 million dollar paycut. But Gaudin who pitched a total of 1 meaningless inning in the playoffs and was average to below average at best in the regular season gets close to a 50% pay raise..

    Percentage is all relative !

  84. braeden January 19th, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    Running the bases cost him 2 seasons on an already short lived pitching career.

  85. randy l. January 19th, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    “Most sabermetric fans are probably smart enough to recognize the talents required to play baseball. Its not like Scouts are some mystical wizards, its just you can’t see everything from a stat sheet and scouts are the only guys who’ll live on the road for peanuts and watch players in a farm field.”

    jerkface-

    i think most sabermetric fans are smart in a certain kind of intelligence, but there are a lot of different kinds of intelligence. i don’t think most of them could go watch a field full of players and pick out the ones who would develop later.

    but i do agree most of them won’t take cuts from their day jobs to find out.

    if you notice i’m not saying sabermetrics( which is really just an amateurish offshoot of statistical analysis) isn’t worthwhile. i actually see the value of it. it does give some people a way into understanding the game.

    that said, i can’t think of anything it’s helped me understand.

    and i do get it that the most cutting edge thing could be something old school or low tech. isn’t that what’s going on with the trendiness in sabermetric circles with the discovery that defense matters.

    if that isn’t reinventing the wheel, i don’t know what is.

  86. SJ44 January 19th, 2010 at 4:52 pm

    Why wouldn’t Wang sign?

    1. He probably won’t be ready until mid-season. Don’t believe agent talk he will be ready for ST. That’s inaccurate.
    2. He isn’t happy about how the Yankees treated him, from his arbitration hearing to his rehab. This is his chance for a fresh start.
    3. The Yankees may not offer the “right money” since they know his medical condition better than anybody and may not want to make an investment in his services.

    Its not like Wang parted happily from the Yankees. He has legitimate beefs over how he was treated.

    If he’s smart, he goes to STL if they make any kind of offer to him. Its his best path back toward being a major league pitcher again because of Dave Duncan.

  87. m January 19th, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    I’m not familiar with that saying, Wave.

    “Don’t ask yourself why the Yanks don’t sign Wang. Ask yourself why Wang would sign with the Yanks. Looked at that way, I think you will understand that Wang isn’t coming back.”

    What exactly did you mean by the above statement, which implies “Why would Wang come back?”

  88. Broken Wang January 19th, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    Percentage is all relative !

    ******************

    True dat…and Gaudin probably will never make more than 5 or 6 million dollars a year – he’ll probably hate when he reaches free agency since at that point he’ll probably have to take a pay cut for his mediocrity.

  89. Patrick January 19th, 2010 at 4:55 pm

    Just a quick correction – Wang’s most recent shoulder surgery was not serious when viewed in the realm of shoulder surgeries. Obviously a shoulder surgery is a big deal for a pitcher but what Wang got wasn’t serious when compared to other shoulder operations.

    Jorge Posada had serious shoulder surgery. Wang did not.

  90. m January 19th, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    SJ,

    I understand all that. Wave was asking, “Why would Wang come back?” And because it wasn’t qualified with any “terms”, I countered with “Why wouldn’t he?”

    But, yes. I know that health questions and crowded rotation are major issues.

  91. lets go yankees January 19th, 2010 at 4:57 pm

    “Brian Cashman and the Yankees clearly didn’t see Vizcaino as their #1 pitching prospect or they wouldn’t have dealt him for one year of Vasquez. That’s not how Cashman has done his business since he took over and I don’t believe he is changing it for Vasquez if he didn’t change it for Halladay or Santana.”

    “Its impossible for any team to value a short season A Ball a pitcher, with less than 75 innings as a professional, as their best pitching prospect.”

    ——————————–

    You cannot just make these sweeping generalizations without taking them in context or backing them up with who is “arguably” the Yankees best pitching prospect.

    At the moment the Yankees do not have a pro-typical best pitching prospect. They do not have a guy like Hughes or Joba of 2 years ago. They do not even have a guy like Kennedy. Guys with a lot of talent, upside, and close to the majors.

    Therefore, when you look at the situation in the Yankee farm system Vizcaino is (or was) definitely in the discussion for the best pitching prospect.

    If you do not think he is in the discussion/argument then please tell me who is

  92. Jerkface January 19th, 2010 at 4:57 pm

    i think most sabermetric fans are smart in a certain kind of intelligence, but there are a lot of different kinds of intelligence. i don’t think most of them could go watch a field full of players and pick out the ones who would develop later.

    and i do get it that the most cutting edge thing could be something old school or low tech. isn’t that what’s going on with the trendiness in sabermetric circles with the discovery that defense matters.

    if you understand then I do not get your beef with why anyone would think Cashman would want to emulate the twins in some aspects? It was never said that Cash wanted the Yankees to become exactly like the Twins, but I think it is obvious that Cashman is open to a lot of different methods in finding, evaluating, and then developing players.

    You seemed to dismiss it out of hand because ‘the twins are low tech’, when it might not be anything technical Cashman is interested in, but rather a process or technique the twins use.

    Also one thing you fail to neglect is that many pro-scouts are not former players. Nor do they always ‘hit’. Give a sabrmetrician some guidelines and things to watch for, give em a year on the road and some time to evaluate their choices and I think you’ll find an equally capable scout.

    I look at it like this:

    Stats – Can tell us where to look for players
    Scouts – Put eyes on the player and tell us why they have the stats they did

    Scouts – Can find players that don’t have stats and … stat them!
    Stats – Confirm what a scout is saying.

    Works both ways.

  93. Wave Your Hat January 19th, 2010 at 4:57 pm

    m-

    The saying is, “If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.”

    The reference was to your saying that IF there was a spot for Wang (in the Yank rotation) and IF the money was right.

    When there isn’t a spot for Wang in the Yank rotation, and when for all the reasons SJ44 is saying AND because there’s no spot for him, the money won’t be right from the Yanks.

  94. Patrick January 19th, 2010 at 5:01 pm

    randy l,

    Sabermetrics aren’t a tool used to teach baseball novices the basics of the game. They aren’t used to help people understand what is important about baseball. They are used to determine one thing – value.

    Sabermetrics also aren’t used as a tool for scouting. Theo Epstein, one of the most forward thinking (when it comes to stats) executives in the game has said that stats for young players (college, rookie leagues, etc) are meaningless. However when you start getting into AA, AAA and the majors, statistics can help predict future value. They are also a good tool for us fans to determine how good a player is.

  95. randy l. January 19th, 2010 at 5:04 pm

    “Statistics, properly used (and I repeat that, properly used), are a key to better understanding just about everything.”

    wave your hat-

    i hope you can read between the lines and tell that i’m provoking a bit on purpose . i’m having some fun with this while at the same time believing what i’m saying.

    patrick had a very honest reaction when he said he’s surprised that the twins do so well.

    it is surprising only if you think that the new stats are necessary.

    baseball has always been about stats. i can’t remember ever playing without doing numbers along with it . i couldn’t eat a bowl of cheerios each morning without mounds of sugar on top without reading the yankees boxscore.

    sabermetrics has in a way hijacked stats. and they are really not that good at them at times as CB and others have pointed out at times.

    i do like OPS. i do like the value of a walk, but i always have even when i was swinging a wooden bat when there were no metal bats.

    my objection comes when people who use sabermetrics act like it’s the one true way to understand the game.

    if it were , the twins would be really bad and they aren’t.

  96. SJ44 January 19th, 2010 at 5:05 pm

    Let’s go,

    Its not about the use of the term, “arguably”. That’s fan talk.

    Its very simple. The Yankees don’t view a short season A Ball RH as their #1 pitching prospect. There is no “arguably” about it from their end.

    They have other kids, like Jose Ramirez and Manny Banuelos who can fit the “high upside” bill just as much (or more) than Vizcaino.

    In Manny’s case, he’s LH and pitched in a higher classification of ball last year.

    My point is, no major league team believes their best prospect, pitching or positional in short season ball.

    If that’s the case, they have a BAD farm system, which the Yankees do not have at the present time.

  97. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? January 19th, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    I have to say, I was disappointed in the way that Wang’s rehab was handled, certainly out of spring training, but mostly once he got prematurely recalled on his way back to Scranton. That alone, if I were Wang and his agent, would make me leary of returning to the Yankees.

    As far as the arbitration stuff goes, and the bitter taste it left in Wang’s mouth, I have no idea exactly what happened that was so different from any other case where a player loses their arbitration argument. I have read and heard that going to arbitration is one of the most difficult things for a player to do; that they will certainly hear all the things that are “wrong” with them, in order for the team to make its case. I have heard that one has to not take it personally – it is all about budget and such – and it seems to me most players get over it. I imagine they get over it more easily if they win. The only thing I can think is that Wang lost, and the difference wasn’t huge, if I recall, and I you wonder why the Yankees just couldn’t give in. But Wang is an adult, and he is a businessman, I would assume, given all his endorsements and exposure in Taiwan. You need to develop a hard heart against these kinds of things.

    Anyway, I don’t see how it is in Wang’s best interests if he wants to pitch at the ML level with any degree of certainty this season to return to the Yankees. As has been pointed out, he’s pretty low on the depth chart right now. Even if his rehab goes ahead of schedule and he is ready to pitch by May-ish, I doubt he’d be the first one called up by the Yankees in case of trouble. And you can’t count on that scenario, if you’re Wang.

    I don’t want to see him gone. I suppose I’m getting myself ready for that to happen, though. And as I said before, I hope he gets a contract offer from the Cardinals, and I hope he makes it back to pitch this season and I hope he is successful for the Cardinals. But I also hope if the Yankees ever face him that they beat him up good! :)

  98. Doreen - Ain't it Just "Grand"? January 19th, 2010 at 5:10 pm

    The statistics garnered by the newer sabermetric analyses are also very useful to players and their agents when negotiating their contracts. :)

  99. Wave Your Hat January 19th, 2010 at 5:13 pm

    Does it ever happen that Scout A says a youngster will develop into a good major league player and Scout B says the same player won’t become a good major league player? Yes, frequently. How do you decide? Think statistics could help? (The answer is yes.)

    Does it ever happen that a majority of scouts say a youngster will never develop into a good major league player, and the player does? Yes, frequently. Would you know when the majority are more likely to be wrong, and thereby get a good deal? Think statistics can help? (the answer is yes.)

    Is there often more possible players to scout than you have scouts to scout them with? Would you like to know how best to deploy your scouts so as to maximize their effectiveness? Statistics, once again.

    Did you ever wonder why people believe that experienced scouts can predict with more success than some random person off the streets whether a youngster will turn out to be a good major leaguer? If that’s so, there’s something methodical behind a scout’s prediction, and if there’s something methodical then statistics will be extremely useful in discovering what, exactly, it is.

    And will be very useful in determining when the scouts are wrong, which they often are, or which scout to listen to, when their opinions conflict, which they often do. Or where to

  100. randy l. January 19th, 2010 at 5:15 pm

    “Sabermetrics aren’t a tool used to teach baseball novices the basics of the game. They aren’t used to help people understand what is important about baseball. They are used to determine one thing – value.”

    patrick-

    i would agree that the distinction you’re making is a good one. dollar value in a business of baseball is a different thing than just how good a player is.

    how valuable is jeter? for the money ,is there another way to get the same wins ? those are good questions.

    the game is such big business that i understand getting in the investment banker type individual into the game. that’s what happened down in tampa. i think sabermetrics did teach those novices quite a bit.

    and theo is a smart guy. i think he realized early on that they had to get the scouts and the old school coaches in the fold too.

    i know it sounds like an insulting analogy but as i said before , you don’t need a high tech device like a GPS to get around if you already know where you’re going.

    to me sabermetrics is just a GPS.

    but they are valuable right. just valuable to who is the question.

    everyone doesn’t need one.

  101. Jerkface January 19th, 2010 at 5:16 pm

    WYH, I agree. Its not like Billy Beane has a computer pick all of his players. He still scouts them. His computer just tells him who he might want to scout :)

  102. Jerkface January 19th, 2010 at 5:17 pm

    i know it sounds like an insulting analogy but as i said before , you don’t need a high tech device like a GPS to get around if you already know where you’re going.

    What if you think you know where you are going, but it is actually the wrong place? Such as many ‘old school’ players insistence on players with ‘speed’ and whatever over sluggers who walk, or guys who strike out alot but get on base anyway?

    Your argument isn’t exactly fool proof. And you’ve got a lot of fools after you right now.

  103. SJ44 January 19th, 2010 at 5:18 pm

    Wave,

    The opposite is also true. There is a great example in Moneyball on how Billy Beane preferred a catcher from Alabama in the first round draft over (what turned out to be) more successful players because of his sabermetrics study on him sold him. The guy turned out to be a bust.

    Its just as likely to mis-evaluate a player using sabermetrics as it is using your eyes. The tiebreaker isn’t always stats.

    Its still a game played and evaluated by human beings. No matter how much folks want to bring stats into the evaluation process, no system is perfect.

  104. Rich in NJ January 19th, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    I think Coke to the rotation makes sense. He isn’t a very good reliever.

    As for the saber v. scouting debate, it should really be use on a 50/50 basis.

  105. Jerkface January 19th, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    The opposite is also true. There is a great example in Moneyball on how Billy Beane preferred a catcher from Alabama in the first round draft over (what turned out to be) more successful players because of his sabermetrics study on him sold him. The guy turned out to be a bust.

    A lot of first rounders end up busting, but he OPS’d .967 his first season, .779 at AA, repeated (.718), repeated again (.847), OPS’d .764 at AAA, and then .833 at AAA.
    He had a lot of injuries which held him back, but he has a career .300/.364/.500 line in the majors (in 11 PA)

    So its not like he busted because Beane ‘missed’ on his stastistical evaluation, its poor health that got Brown (and maybe some other things relating to why he never got much of a chance despite putting up good stats in the minors)

    Career .268/.370/.439 guy in the minors. Nice line for a bust.

  106. Nick in SF January 19th, 2010 at 5:29 pm

    Wait a second, so crusty old scouts who only evaluate prospects over wings and beer and sabergeeks who only look at newfangled stats can BOTH be wrong? Or right?

    I don’t know who to believe.

  107. lets go yankees January 19th, 2010 at 5:30 pm

    “My point is, no major league team believes their best prospect, pitching or positional in short season ball.”

    ————————–

    You continue saying this without justifying your statement.

    If this is not the case then please name who in the Yankee system was ranked ahead of Viz. Just repeating the same generalization I just questioned does not provide an answer.

    I also do not get how the term “arguably” is fan talk. This is not a science and I am willing to bet there are many differing opinions in baseball and in the Yankee FO as to their prospects.

  108. Jerkface January 19th, 2010 at 5:30 pm

    I don’t know who to believe.

    Believe in Cashman!

  109. Go Johnny ! January 19th, 2010 at 5:32 pm

    Damon has to be sad when he hears about all the Players signings today on MLBR.

  110. m January 19th, 2010 at 5:36 pm

    Verlander asking for $9.5M, Tigers counter with $6.9M.

    Lincecum asking $13M, Giants offer $8M.

    I would think that Verlander and the Giants would win.

  111. randy l. January 19th, 2010 at 5:38 pm

    “Stats – Can tell us where to look for players
    Scouts – Put eyes on the player and tell us why they have the stats they did
    Scouts – Can find players that don’t have stats and … stat them!
    Stats – Confirm what a scout is saying.
    Works both ways.”

    jerkface-

    yes it does work both ways.

    we don’t really have an argument here unless you said the stat guys should be in charge which in most places they are. that’s a discussion for another day.

    i just think it’s amusing that cashman would look at the twins and not see what was different immediately.

    on the blog we made lots of jokes about gardner being such a bad bunter. that could happen in the yankee system, but not in the twins system.

    the difference between the two approaches is so dramatic that i don’t see how cashman couldn’t see it.

  112. Jerkface January 19th, 2010 at 5:38 pm

    Lincecum is going to destroy arbitration. No way the Giants win. Brad Penny got 8 million, and Lincecum has the 2nd best ERA+ of any pitcher in his first like 450 IP in a career and 2 cy youngs back to back.

    No way the giants win that.

  113. pat January 19th, 2010 at 5:39 pm

    Buster_ESPN Heard this: With the signing of Molina, the Giants are basically tapped out with their money, except for minor stuff. No Johnny Damon in SF.

  114. Wave Your Hat January 19th, 2010 at 5:40 pm

    SJ44-

    I have no doubt that you are also right, and that the current level of statistical analysis in projecting undeveloped players leaves something to be desired, and can often lead to mistakes.

    I was being a bit more forward-thinking, so to speak, looking down the road to see where statistics will help in the future.

    I have no doubt that as more thought is put into statistical evaluation as a means of projecting young players, statistics will become more and more useful in identifying which young players to invest time and money in. It is impossible, IMO, to imagine otherwise.

  115. SJ44 January 19th, 2010 at 5:40 pm

    Clearly Jose Ramirez and Manny Banuelos were rated higher (in the Yankees minds) because they weren’t dealt.

    In trades like this, the Braves are given a list of “approved” guys from the Yankees and are asked to pick from that list.

    The Yankees didn’t trade their #1 pitching prospect for a one year rental. I know this for a fact because Cashman has never done it before, when he had more pressure to make a deal. There is no reason to believe he did it now.

    Jerkface,

    You are basing 11 PA in the majors as an example of Beane not busting on the guy? Beane himself has said the guy was a bust.

    Yes, his line is a bust line because he never made it to the majors and couldn’t even stay in the game as a DH, which he tried to do and failed.

  116. Jerkface January 19th, 2010 at 5:42 pm

    For all their fundamentals, the twins blew a lot of fundamental plays in the playoffs and all last season.

  117. pat January 19th, 2010 at 5:44 pm

    SF would both be wise to at least trying to split the difference and avoiding arbitration with Lincecum.

  118. randy l. January 19th, 2010 at 5:44 pm

    “What if you think you know where you are going, but it is actually the wrong place? ”

    that’s not what a GPS is for.

    that’s why we have a wife or girlfriend to tell us what we really should be doing.

    ( that’s my politically inappropriate contribution to today’s blog)

  119. Nick in SF January 19th, 2010 at 5:46 pm

    Gardner doesn’t bunt well because the Yankees have a statistical analysis department?

  120. Erica - always OPPC - Bring Back Johnny!!!! January 19th, 2010 at 5:47 pm

    pat
    January 19th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
    Buster_ESPN Heard this: With the signing of Molina, the Giants are basically tapped out with their money, except for minor stuff. No Johnny Damon in SF.

    ************************

    YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  121. CompassRosy January 19th, 2010 at 5:48 pm

    the Mariners have wisely locked up Felix Hernandez on a five-year deal.

    Happy Birthday to me!!!

    :-)

  122. lets go yankees January 19th, 2010 at 5:49 pm

    Clearly Jose Ramirez and Manny Banuelos were rated higher (in the Yankees minds) because they weren’t dealt.

    In trades like this, the Braves are given a list of “approved” guys from the Yankees and are asked to pick from that list.

    The Yankees didn’t trade their #1 pitching prospect for a one year rental. I know this for a fact because Cashman has never done it before, when he had more pressure to make a deal. There is no reason to believe he did it now.

    ——————————
    SJ

    So let me get this straight,

    Vizcaino cannot qualify as the Yankees #1 prospect because he has not pitched above short season ball.

    Yet, Jose Ramirez a guy who has never pitched above short season ball can? Or Banuelos a guy who pitched in low A ball can?

    It is also not clear at all those guys are rated higher then him. The Braves choose Vizcaino for a reason and I have never read or seen anything that rates either of those guys ahead of Viz.

    Finally, comparing trading Hughes or Joba to Viz or Banuelos or Ramirez is ridiculous. They are completely different situations and just because they had the label of “#1 prospect” attached to them does not change that fact in anyway.

  123. lets go yankees January 19th, 2010 at 5:49 pm

    chose* not choose

  124. DaSaint007 January 19th, 2010 at 5:50 pm

    STL putting together a pretty interesting pitching staff with depth. Solid, proven starters, a high-risk yet talented kid in Chapman, and a high-risk/high-reward proven two-time 19-game winner in Wang.

    What’s not to respect about that?

    Besides, considering what Gaudin is worth ($2.9MM), Wang is certainly going to expect more than $5MM, and should he return to form, he could be a $15MM pitcher in a couple years. Don’t think the Yankees had the roster flexibility ot add that payroll in a couple years.

    All the best to him though.

  125. RayVT January 19th, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    Wave Your Hat
    January 19th, 2010 at 5:13 pm

    Scouts look at tools. LOL! They actually time pitches, time speed to 1st, to second, and evaluate the knowledge base of an individual and the percentage of growth available. Certain stars do not need a statistic to evaluate, as they have pressence. Looking at Daryl Strawberry as an 18 yr old was awesome. He was smooth & refined. Same with the awesome LHP from NC that Yanks signed (?) years ago, but he got his shoulder carved up outside a bar. One succeeded the other didn’t. Sabermetrics or statistics would not have helped evaluate either one.

    In order for statistics to be quantifiable, then the data has to be normal and baselined or relative data. HS, College & low A ball are quite varied and do not meet the criteria for a correlation of data being consistent or relative. Why it is hard enough to measure appropriately between AL and NL, no less the extreme differences of minor league parks and pitching/hitting/fielding.

    That said there is a place for using both and weighing them according to a teams strength. If you have great scouts, maybe the scouting rating’s weight goes up or vice versa.

    What is laughable is someone saying Igawa pitched great in AAA statistically and push for him to be in the Yankee’s rotation. Well, even the boldest people perhaps wouldn’t do that, but I’m sure there are others that they do who have the same variances or more.

  126. m January 19th, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    pat,

    trade rumors thinking they might meet at $10m.

    lol. I was going to use my LoHud lifeline because my daughter and I were trying to figure out who “Bobby Bottleservice” looks like. It’s been bugging us. At first I thought Joey Lawrence, but not really.

    Then I just had an epiphany. He reminds me of Nick Swisher. Sorry, had to share that. “This is Bobby Bottleservice…”

  127. MTU January 19th, 2010 at 5:54 pm

    Saint-

    Chapman went to the Reds. :)

  128. Hobs January 19th, 2010 at 5:54 pm

    DaSaint007,

    Chapman signed with the Reds…

  129. DaSaint007 January 19th, 2010 at 5:55 pm

    Thanks fellas. Been more out of it than I thought…

  130. Erica - always OPPC - Bring Back Johnny!!!! January 19th, 2010 at 5:56 pm

    From MLBTR:

    In a text message to Tyler Kepner of The New York Times (vie Twitter), Johnny Damon said he’s “sure things will work out somewhere.” Damon added that he hasn’t ruled out a return the Yankees either.

  131. DaSaint007 January 19th, 2010 at 5:57 pm

    Erica: Keep Hope Alive!

  132. Erica - always OPPC - Bring Back Johnny!!!! January 19th, 2010 at 5:57 pm

    Nick in SF-

    Wouldn’t it be amazing if you had to pay me $50?

  133. Erica - always OPPC - Bring Back Johnny!!!! January 19th, 2010 at 5:57 pm

    DaSaint007
    January 19th, 2010 at 5:57 pm
    Erica: Keep Hope Alive!

    *************

    There’s always hope! :-)

  134. Peter R January 19th, 2010 at 5:57 pm

    Nick in SF January 19th, 2010 at 5:46 pm

    Gardner doesn’t bunt well because the Yankees have a statistical analysis department?

    ============================================================

    Lol, that is exactly what I thought.

    Can we move on from this stats vs old people talk? Everyone agrees almost every time (except Randy who never learned a thing from stats) that you need both stats and good scouts to have a well rounded player evaluation system and I don’t care if the Twins (or Randy) disagree.

    We are all arguing the same thing here guys/girls….lets get back to the 8 week conversation about Damon, missing Matsui, Wang, how our new pitcher will crash and burn, how Gardner rocks socks and how Lackey isn’t as good as he is made out to be.

  135. Chad Jennings January 19th, 2010 at 6:00 pm

    New post.

  136. Go Johnny ! January 19th, 2010 at 6:01 pm

    Damon better be prepared to grovel with a discount in hand, wrapped in a bow.

    I personally wrote him a detailed email last night, and shared some gut wrenching thoughts. Hopefully he’ll come to his senses.

  137. Nick in SF January 19th, 2010 at 6:02 pm

    Yes, Erica, that would be amazing!

    It seems more likely that neither player will return to the Yankees and neither of us will the other anything.

    I’d prefer it if they both came back.

  138. randy l. January 19th, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    “Such as many ‘old school’ players insistence on players with ’speed’ and whatever over sluggers who walk, or guys who strike out alot but get on base anyway?”

    i really like walks and always have so i’m not the kind of old school guy to defend hitting .300 but having a .310 on base percentage.

    this discussion has gone all over the place, but my observation is simply if the yankees want to have a better minor league system they should do a better job of teaching players to play. they don’t need more gardners who can’t bunt,

  139. haiku-man January 19th, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    Goose Gossage live on the radio, gets good midway through.
    He’s on St Louis radio Now live

    http://www.team1380.

    He says McGwire isn’t HOF worthy!

  140. haiku-man January 19th, 2010 at 6:08 pm

    http://www.1380.net Goose Gossage

  141. RayVT January 19th, 2010 at 6:09 pm

    Jerkface
    January 19th, 2010 at 5:42 pm

    That is so true, the Twins did make a lot of fundamental mistakes. I actually attributed them to nerves and a fear of failure, because they knew their window to win was small against the Yankees. Don’t judge the organization by that one series though. That team was basically spent overachievers going against a tremendously talented and rested Yankee team.

    What I never understand is how a guy who isn’t a power hitter can make it to the majors w/o knowing how to bunt.

  142. GreenBeret7 January 19th, 2010 at 6:21 pm

    Rich in NJ
    January 19th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
    I think Coke to the rotation makes sense. He isn’t a very good reliever.

    As for the saber v. scouting debate, it should really be use on a 50/50 basis.

    ————————————————————

    You’ve determined this little jewell how, exactly?

  143. GreenBeret7 January 19th, 2010 at 6:23 pm

    ***jewel***

  144. Joe X January 19th, 2010 at 6:54 pm

    Reasons for Wang to re-sign:
    1. Rehab continues with same trainers + docs.
    2. Don’t have to relocate family. We hear this every year.
    3. He’s from a BIG city. If you were earning a mil a month would you rather be in NY or Cleveland?
    4. Starting Hughes with innings count guarantees an opening with low stress.

    Yanks should offer a half mil mL contract with 1mil if he throws a 5 inning game by June 15. Another mil for 3 5 inning starts by July 15, 1 mil for 4 by Aug 15, 1 mil for 5 by Sept 15 and again in Oct. 7 mil option next year with half mil buy-out.

  145. Matt January 19th, 2010 at 10:59 pm

    Wang needs to resign. So what if he had a rough season (very rough), hes a 19 game winner.

  146. ortforshort January 20th, 2010 at 12:13 am

    Wang is better off going to St.Louis. Better coaching and he couldn’t do any worse than the Yankees management-wise. When the GM makes it clear that he doesn’t give a crap about who you sign with after recently carrying the rotation for two and half years, then you’re better off elsewhere. The same goes for Damon, for that matter. Abreu moved on to Anaheim where he was respected and responded with an excellent year. Matsui intelligently quickly moved on to the Angels as well. Damon would be better off going anywhere than New York after the “love” he’s received from Cashman this winter. By the way, the Twins are an intelligent organization who look past the stats when its wise to do so. Anyone who saw Pavano carving up the Yanks last post season knows the guy can still pitch – stats or no stats.

  147. melky gardner January 20th, 2010 at 1:34 am

    “Wang is a good guy and fun to root for but I don’t think he is coming back….unless we snatch him away from someone again later when he got his grove back”

    I hope it happens, and when it does I’ll watch the doubters eat crow.

  148. Ihsan shanti January 28th, 2010 at 5:33 am

    Gr8 to write for you. Really Good article , Well keep maintain your standard of writing and i will be back soon. – Dr. Ihsan Shanti


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