Everyone else
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 19, 2010 
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It’s hard to argue with Mike Axisa’s conclusion in this morning’s post: In terms of high-end talent, the Yankees minor league system really is, “Montero and everyone else.”
That’s not to say there isn’t high-end talent thoughout the system, it just means that much of that talent comes with considerable risk. Some of that risk is due to injuries (Dellin Betances, Chris Garcia, Brad Suttle, Alan Horne, Andrew Brackman) and some of it is because of youth (Manny Banuelos, Jose Ramirez, Slade Heathcott, Gary Sanchez, Kelvin DeLeon). But the Yankees can afford that risk.
Austin Romine, Zach McAllister and Jeremy Bleich give the Yankees quality in the upper levels, and the lower levels are full of potential that the Yankees can afford to treat with patience. The major league roster has very few holes, and so the slow development of a young shortstop like Carmen Angelini or an injury to a young pitcher like Jairo Heredia leaves no cause for immediate panic.
Although much of the system’s raw talent is in the lower levels, the Triple-A and Double-A rosters will be stocked with potential major league role players. Mike listed three — Kevin Russo, Romulo Sanchez and Reegie Corona — who could very well play a role this season. I’ll add three more names, each of which comes with a little more risk and uncertainty.
Colin Curtis
Outfielder
Now that Austin Jackson has been traded, Curtis is easily the Yankees’ top upper-level outfield prospect. There is nothing particularly impressive about his career numbers, but he does a lot of things well, and just before the Rule 5 draft, an opposing scout told me he considered Curtis exactly the kind of player who can come up to fill a part-time role in the big leagues. Given their lack of outfield depth, the Yankees might need exactly that. If Curtis continues the adjustments he made in the Arizona Fall League — he led the league in slugging percentage — he could very easily push for a mid-season call-up.
Kevin Whelan
Relief pitcher
The last player remaining from the Gary Sheffield trade, Whelan has a big fastball and a big splitfinger, but he also has big walk totals. Late last season, though, Whelan seemed to be turning a corner. He had 13 walks in 12.2 Triple-A innings, but seven of those walks came in a bad two-game stretch. He closed the regular season with four walks and 17 strikeouts through nine innings. He was the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre’s closer in the playoffs. There’s a lot to like about his arm if he can add a little command.
Jorge Vazquez
First baseman
In recent years, the Yankees have done a nice job finding talent in obscure places. They pulled Edwar Ramirez out of independent ball and found Alfredo Aceves playing in Mexico. That’s the same place they found the power-hitting Vazquez. Through his final four seasons in Mexico, Vazquez never had a slugging percentage lower than .605, and he twice had a slugging percentage above .730. Last year in Double-A, he hit .329 with 13 home runs in 57 games. He hit 11 more home runs in 32 games of winter ball. Vazquez is a complete wild card in the Yankees system, but the power seems legitimate. He could be the next surprise to put himself on the radar.
Mr.Jigginz
January 19th, 2010 at 12:03 pm
Axisa,you had me at “eschewed.”
LOL
Outfield depth concerns me the most. I mean we just inked the league’s best #9 starter to a $3M deal yesterday so pitching’s not a problem.
Otherwise, the relative thinness of the farm system doesn’t bother me too much. The Yankees can handle the lulls of the cycle.
Perry’s crystal ball: http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....l-baseball
It was Boras. And the doctors…
Monday’s latest news and notes
Nady on track — 12:22 p.m.
Scott Boras, the agent for Xavier Nady, said in an e-mail that the outfielder is “on schedule to be ready in spring training,” following the second Tommy John elbow surgery of his career.
“The doctors have his throwing program ahead of schedule,” Boras said.
A separate source said that the Cubs are among the teams interested in Nady. The Cubs would like to add an experienced fourth outfielder to compliment Alfonso Soriano, Marlon Byrd and Kosuke Fukudome.
Nady, 31, has been a productive player when healthy, batting .305 with 25 home runs and 97 RBIs for the Pirates and Yankees in 2008. But he has appeared in more than 130 games during only one season of his major league career. — Jon Paul Morosi
“Boston had the best offseason of any contender and improved a team that won 95 games a year ago. The Red Sox boast perhaps the deepest rotation in baseball, and Mike Cameron and Adrian Beltre are two excellent value additions to the lineup and team defense. They won’t catch the colossus in the Bronx, but they will fend off the Rays for the AL wild card.”
The above excerpt is from Perry’s linked article. I think he’s overrating the acquistions of Cameron and Beltre by calling them excellent value additions. IMO, they’re good additions not great additions.
Chad:
Juan Miranda used to be listed as a 1B/OF. I know he never played outfield in a pro game, but didn’t he work out some in the outfield last year? I’m just wondering if he could get consideration as a bench bat on the big club in the Sierra/Strawberry capacity.
stuckey,
Only in hindsight was it a bridge year. We lost Wang for half a season, easily could’ve won more than Ponson’s Posse.
We lost Posada. I think Hideki was out quite a bit, too.
And if Tampa doesn’t have its magical season, I think we would’ve been there.
Mel, the syatem isn’t thin…it’s just very young.
“Boston had the best offseason of any contender and improved a team that won 95 games a year ago. The Red Sox boast perhaps the deepest rotation in baseball, and Mike Cameron and Adrian Beltre are two excellent value additions to the lineup and team defense. They won’t catch the colossus in the Bronx, but they will fend off the Rays for the AL wild card.”
The above excerpt is from Perry’s linked article. I think he’s overrating the acquistions of Cameron and Beltre by calling them excellent value additions. IMO, they’re good additions not great additions.
___
both will make boston a bit better. they will both hit non-stop doubles off the wall at home, but i dont think they will help much on the road. Lowell was a good defensive 3rd baseman and beltre is known for d now. cameron has a weird cf to play at fenway and ellsbury is not a left fielder so that will be interesting.
Note: Perry is a HUGE Red Sox fan. It slants just about everything he writes.
Chad, you hit on the value of the Yankees minor league system at this time….role players.
They need guys to fill in and enhance the group. They don’t need starting players from the minors at this time.
Tex, Cano, Jeter and Arod are going to play almost everyday for the few years. To have a “hot” SS, 1B, 2B or 3B prospect at AAA or AA right now is a waste. Those guys aren’t going to unseat to Hall of Famers and 2 all stars in the infield anytime soon. They would just become trade bait.
No team in baseball has the depth of catching talent in the minors the Yankees have at this time. This coincides well with Posada’s advancing age. One among Montero, Romine, Cervelli, Sanchez and Murphy will emerge in the next few years. The odds are in the Yankees favor on that end.
Pitching? You can never have enough of it but, the Yankees can get by with what they have right now. A few more IFA signings and a good 2010 draft should add depth back to the system.
The OF? Well, Granderson is here for awhile and I’m pretty confident the Yankees will end up signing a high end FA OF next off-season.
OF’s seem to found on the trade market easier than other positions.
I am interested in seeing how Heathscott and DeLeon handle their next levels of play. Of all the OF prospects, they are the most interesting to me.
Awesome Article:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....8;hpt=Sbin
Best Line from Verducci – All they needed to do to crack the top five in efficiency was to win the 2003, 2004 and 2008 World Series
Okay, let’s say it’s balding. A little thin on the top.
Gotta go do some prep work in the kitchen. Maybe you guys can cook up something here by the time I get back.
m
January 19th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
It was Boras. And the doctors…
Monday’s latest news and notes
Nady on track — 12:22 p.m.
Scott Boras, the agent for Xavier Nady, said in an e-mail that the outfielder is “on schedule to be ready in spring training,” following the second Tommy John elbow surgery of his career.
**************************
That’s good news for Nady
Nady ready by spring training?
Nobody will sign him until they see him in batting practice.
“One among Montero, Romine, Cervelli, Sanchez and Murphy will emerge in the next few years. The odds are in the Yankees favor on that end.”
Odds also are 60% of these guys won’t be catchers at the big league level.
From the previous thread:
SJ
“For the Yankees, its to build enough depth to wheel some prospects for proven, veteran players, as well as develop their own talent at certain positions.”
The reason that this strategy has worked is that they developed a solid homegrown core that has served as the foundation for winning five championships. This core, however, is aging, and it’s’ far from a certainty that the Yankees will be in a position to win multiple champions once these players retire.
Consequently, I don’t think there is one correct way to view the role of the Yankees’ farm system.
Even when an organization doesn’t have the “luxury” of drafting in the top ten, there is an opportunity to draft high end talent that can become the foundation of championship teams, especially for a franchise with the Yankees’ abundant resources (and the doesn’t taken into account the Yankees’ advantage by paying overslot). For example, Justin Morneau was drafted in the 3rd round.
The Yankees have done a better job of identifying high end talent in the draft, but they need to have more hits. They have a lot of talented prospects in the low minors as a result of signing IFA, however, there is a gap at the higher levels of the system that could pose a problem if there injuries or precipitous declines occur.
Drafting well is a hedge against those unplanned contingencies.
GB -
Thanks for the answers in that last thread. Will be interesting following those guys’ progress this year. Laird, even if he can’t play the OF, would seem to be a good trade candidate at least if he continues his progress.
SJ, how excited are you to see Neill Medchill, Deangelo Mack and Zoilo Almonte bringing their bats and outfield gloves to Charleston? I’m also curious about thoughts on Luke Murton, too. Have only seen his numbers, but, not him. I’m hoping he shows stuff in Charleston. It’s hard to judge those guys by numbers, though. Except for Almonte, they’re all about 22 years old in a Rookie League.
m
January 19th, 2010 at 12:30 pm
Okay, let’s say it’s balding. A little thin on the top.
Gotta go do some prep work in the kitchen. Maybe you guys can cook up something here by the time I get back.
————————————————————
More like a miltary haircut (called high and tights, or mighty fines). Looks thin right now, but, it’ll grow back.
Miranda played the outfield in Cuba, but that was a long, long time ago and I can’t see it happening with the Yankees. He just doesn’t move well enough to suggest he could play the outfield. Even if he did move well, the fact the Yankees have yet to try him out there suggests they don’t see it as a realistic possibility.
There is a gap because they have guys who have tied up positions for years at the major league level. That makes it tough to keep players in the system for long periods of time.
How would you like to be a SS in the system during Derek Jeter’s time in NY? You are screwed.
Adding kids like Heathscott and DeLeon is the beginning of drafting/signing more athleticism at the upper levels of the draft and in the IFA market.
As much as the core is aging, they are still productive and the Yankees have been able to re-load the system in the last few years.
For a keynote position like SS for example, the odds are the future SS of the Yankees is a player on another team right now. At the appropriate time, they will deal for that guy.
Montero will catch in the majors. So will Romine.
Most people who write that Montero won’t catch in the majors have never seen him play.
He’s a 19 year old kid who has gotten better behind the plate every year of his development.
He will never be Pudge Rodriquez back there. He also won’t be a stiff either.
Every other one of those kids I mentioned in the post will be catchers as long as they show the ability to do the job.
That’s because finding good catchers today, along with finding quality LH starting pitchers, are the most scarce commodities in baseball development.
What about making a trade for Ryan Spilborghs to be a part-time outfielder?
rodg12
January 19th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
GB -
Thanks for the answers in that last thread. Will be interesting following those guys’ progress this year. Laird, even if he can’t play the OF, would seem to be a good trade candidate at least if he continues his progress.
————————————————————
Yeah, I’d hate to see that bat get traded, because he could fill in at 5 spots, eventually….1st, 3rd, both corner outfields and DH. Like you say, though, he could be moved in a trade, but, he’s no throw-in.
Kevin Whelan
“The last player remaining from the Gary Sheffield trade”
I Thought that Humberto Sanchez rejoined the Yankees last season in some capacity? Is he no longer around?
Honestly I think Curtis might get bypassed by some of the minor league free agent OF’s we signed this offseason. Both becuase they outperform him and more likely so they don’t have to add Curtis to the 40-man before they need to. A guy like Jon Weber could be the first callup.
Whelan might get a shot at some point, but his command will definitely still have to improve. If that happens he’ll be one of the top bullpen option in AAA which means he’ll get called up this year. I wouldn’t be surprised though if someone like Grant Duff jumps ahead of him in the bullpen pecking order especially if he keeps with his high 90′s velocity.
Vazquez and Miranda will both be in constant competition as they’ll be the primary options if something happens to Tex or NJ as they’ll be the best hitters in AAA (other than Montero).
All three of the guys Chad mentioned are definitely possibilities though to see some ML time.
GB,
Mack played with my nephew in the Cape two summers ago. Great kid. Very athletic, above average speed and defender.
Has some pop in the bat. I’m interested in seeing if it translates to full season A Ball.
Murton is a big kid with a big swing. Sort of a Dave Kingman type. When he makes contact, it goes a long way.
Not a good defender. I don’t see him making too much of a dent once he reaches the upper levels of the minor leagues.
Only saw Medchill play once in Staten Island. Not sure if his bat is really that good or the league was a bit down.
I need to see more of him against better competition to form a better opinion of his chances.
I’ve seen Almonte a few times. He seems to zone out. Some good days and some bad days. He has ability though.
It will be interesting to see how they handle better instruction in Charleston. IMO, they do a great job with the players there and we will get a better idea of these guys ceilings after working with that staff over a full season.
Montero, defensively is somewhere between Posada and Piazza. I only saw one of his games on MLB after going to Trenton, but, if and when he gets to Scranton, he’s got a very good instructor there in Wynegar. Even if that’s his defensive level, that bat makes up for a lot of sins.
Sanchez re-signed last year but became a free agent again this winter.
Hey Chad, any word on the full list of ST invites? Yanks usually bring in some interesting names, seems like they are a bit behind schedule this offseason
Thanks, SJ. As I said, I had only seen the one game of Medchill’s and he hammered one out to center. I’ll still enjoy seeing what they do. It’s those young pitchers coming in to Charleston with Higashioka catching that should be fun, though.
“There is a gap because they have guys who have tied up positions for years at the major league level. That makes it tough to keep players in the system for long periods of time.”
Really? So they drafted inferior prospects because they didn’t need them? Come on.
If they drafted a talented SS that was blocked by Jeter he could be traded to fill another need.
Why is it so hard to admit that they let the farm system decline for years (Cash has acknowledged that). They have done a better job since Cash took over, but they still have a ways to go. That’s why he has said that he wants to emulate the Twins, who he has called the state of the art.
Craw –
I agree with you on Perry’s column. I have a hard time considering Beltre at 10 mil and Cameron at 16 mil as “value” signings.
More than that, when you consider that they’ve got Beltre and still stuck with Lowell at 13 mil, they are paying their 3b a combined 26 million – hardly seems like a value to me.
Also, just to comment on Curtis, I think you’re right that one of the free agent outfielders could get the first call-up to New York. Really, I’d say it’s a pretty open competition between Curtis, Gorecki, Winfree and Weber. Curtis and Gorecki might be a bit higher because they can play center field and run a little bit off the bench.
SJ -
I agree with you about the Yankees having guys positions tied up for a few years to come. That is why I have been advocating a move of Eduardo Nunez to the OF. The Yankees have plenty of utlity infield candidates with Pena, Russo and Corona – Nunez supposedly has the best bat of the group and the shakiest hands. Seems to me the logical move is to take all that athletic ability and that bat and see how it plays in LF. The Yankees did it with Austin Jackson and it worked out pretty well.
Not sure when they’re releasing the full list of non-roster invites. They had already announced it at this time last yaer, but then again, spring training started a bit earlier last season.
Glad to see you mention Torre Tyson and his staff, SJ. He’s a fine young manager. I wish NYY would get him some extra help, though. It makes it tough when you have to use players as base coaches, though. I hope that with Sanchez, Farnham, Higashioka and Murphy coming in that they get a catching instructor in there.
Chad -
The thing I like most about Winfree – more than the other FA outfielders, is that the Yankees almost consider him a prospect more than just a minor league free agent.
To me it sort of sounds like with him (and Hoffmann) they are taking a gamble on the ideas that these guys may still have development ahead of them and aren’t just what they are. That maybe Hoffmann can be a productive player at the major league level and a possible replacement for Nick Swisher down the line, that maybe Winfree becomes the big time slugger he was once profiled to be…they are both still young enough and relatively inexperienced enough to make it happen is my guess.
Additionally they have the Dominican outfielder – Moronto – who should move quickly through the system. And if he truly does profile into a young Raul Mondesi, well that would also represent a heck of a pickup for the club.
An other point. No one can predict when injuries occur, particularly to aging players. If one does happen (A-Rod in 2009), you can compensate with the Penas of the world, but if more than one happens (Posada, Matsui, Wang in 2008), you need quality mL depth or you probably won’t make the playoffs.
“Bruney was a non-tender candidate. It had been four years of injuries and inconsistency, time to move on.”
———————-
uh oh. Don’t let greenberet see this…
“That’s why he has said that he wants to emulate the Twins, who he has called the state of the art.”
rich in nj-
cashman emulate the twins?
that really puzzles me? do you have any idea how low tech and old fashioned the twins are at the minor league level ?
i’ve been in the twins triple a club house several times in the past two years and they are as old school as it gets.
not exactly the way that cashman does it.
the twins have a lot of continuity with old school coaches who teach players how to do odd things like bunting.
gardner would have never been allowed to make the decision to not bunt much in his last two minor league seasons because he didn’t want to give up at bats. he would have kept bunting and gotten better or he would have been on the bench.
… and how can old school be “state of the art”?
isn’t there a contradiction there?
SJ44
January 19th, 2010 at 12:28 pm
“Note: Perry is a HUGE Red Sox fan. It slants just about everything he writes.”
–
Is that a conspiracy? Do you have any factual information?
Rich,
That’s not what I’m saying.
Cashman has had only 4 years under his belt to overhaul the farm system.
To say, “they need more”, really doesn’t say much. EVERY team needs more.
However, in only 4 short years, the Yankees are night and day a better farm system and organization than they were in 2004.
To that end, they had a number of young guys contribute to a world championship team.
They are like every organization in the game. They have gaps in development at certain positions.
The Red Sox for example have nobody in their system with the skill of Austin Romine, let alone Jesus Montero.
They also are lacking position player propsects at the upper levels. That’s why they had to go the FA route to fill their SS and OF needs.
Nobody is saying the Yankees have “everything”. However, they have more than most and more importantly, the dollars to fill needs when they miss.
That’s something 99% of the teams in baseball don’t have at this time.
randy l.
Their scouting is state of the art. That’s the point.
“Boston had the best offseason of any contender and improved a team that won 95 games a year ago. The Red Sox boast perhaps the deepest rotation in baseball, and Mike Cameron and Adrian Beltre are two excellent value additions to the lineup and team defense. They won’t catch the colossus in the Bronx, but they will fend off the Rays for the AL wild card.”
Deepest rotation depth? Why does that sound so familiar…?
Whelan has got a HUGE fastball, but, as noted, doesn’t command it particularly well. If he were to get his walk rate down into the “acceptable” category, he’d be in the bigs in a flash.
A healthy Christian Garcia is one of the best pitching prospects in the game–seriously. Terrific stuff, terrific command. He just keeps getting hurt.
Jeremy Bleich? Think Ted Lilly. No one gets excited about a potential #3/4 starter in AA ball. But successful ML teams need middle-of-the-rotation guys, too.
Colin Curtis? Think Chad Curtis–from the left side. If Brett Gardner batted from the right side, Colin Curtis would be platooning with him in 2010.
Manny Banuelos? He reminds scouts of Johan Santana. Yes, you heard that right. A 5’11″ kid with a 93mph fastball from the left side, an excellent breaking pitch, and good command. This is a big year for him. If he’s good in AA, the sky’s the limit. He wouldn’t see the bigs until late 2011, at the earliest, but he’s got terrific potential.
Andrew Brackman? A project. But, over the last month of the 2009 season, when he pitched exclusively out of the bullpen, he was terrific, really, really good. What does this mean? Who knows? But it was an encouraging sign.
Dellin Betances? Most scouts will tell you that his surgery was no surprise because it looked like he’d had some kind of physical issue for a while. But he’s got all kinds of talent, and all kinds of raw skill. Sure, he’s a couple of years away, but still…
Jorge Vasquez? On a lesser team, he’d be competing seriously for a starting 1B job this spring. He’s got thunder in his bat. He could hit .260 in the big leagues right now, and has 30 hr. power.
Slade Heathcott? He’s a five-tool talent and it wouldn’t be foolish to predict he’ll be the Yankees’ CF in a couple of years. He fell to the Yanks in the draft only because of “character issues.” What character issues? His mother. That’s right, his mother is messed up. The Yankees, fortunately, did not sign his mother.
Finally, the Yanks might not have A+ talent in the upper minors right now. But they’ve got a LOT of solid talent there, guys who will make the majors and contribute. A LOT of depth. The system is loaded with #3 starters, middle relievers, and good position players, not guys who will become stars, perhaps, but guys who will be major leaguers and who will be good trade chips should a need arise. This is the absolute best shape the farm system has been in in 20 years. And Montero, Banuelos, Heathcott, Brackman, Sanchez, and DeLeon all have star potential.
“The Red Sox for example have nobody in their system with the skill of Austin Romine, let alone Jesus Montero.”
NOTE: SJ44 is HUGE Yankees fan. It slants just about everything he writes.
As far as injuries are concerned, if core players suffer season ending injuries, no organization has the depth to overcome that. That’s just part of life in the majors.
You can overcome short term injuries. However, there isn’t really a system anywhere in baseball that can overcome getting hit with a ton of injuries like they did in 2008.
I’ve known of Perry for years. It isn’t a “conspiracy”. However, it does affect his columns at times.
Go back and read them and form your own opinion. You will see they are heavily pro-Red Sox and anti-Yankee.
That’s his schtick and he is good at what he does with it.
“Boston had the best offseason of any contender and improved a team that won 95 games a year ago. The Red Sox boast perhaps the deepest rotation in baseball, and Mike Cameron and Adrian Beltre are two excellent value additions to the lineup and team defense.
****************************
SJ
Yes, they have had support players contribute, and I have acknowledged that the system has improved under Cash. My point of departure from your post is that I believe they have a greater need to develop their own farm system than to merely use it to trade for veterans to supplement the ML teams.
As I said, you never know when injuries or declines will occur, so it’s necessary to have a strong mL pipeline at all levels of the system.
If a player is blocked for the foreseeable future and he doesn’t have the skillset to be moved to another position of need, fine, trade him, but particularly, with so many members of the core approaching 40, there really has to be an emphasis (and the patience) to have talented in house solutions to cover any contingency.
Interesting comment Bill since many on here don’t like when I criticize the team when I see things I don’t like.
Why don’t you try examining other websites that specialize in minor league player evaluations and see if the Red Sox have anybody with the ratings that Montero and Romine have as position players at the present time.
The closest one is Lars Anderson and his stock dropping a lot this past season.
Sorry if facts get in the way of your ability to comprehend player evaluation.
People are still complaining about losing Vizcaino? NYY has at the very least another 5 young right handers that have as much promise Vizcaino. Trading him gave NYYs a chance to fill a much bigger need at the MLB level than a partials season Rookie League pitcher will. If he makes it, it wouldn’t be for another 3-4 years.
I have to agree with SJ on what a farm system is used for. They fill their holes from the farm, and when they can’t they deal off the excess for those needs. Better to sell off the farm excess than let it rot in the fields.
SI_JonHeyman
#rockies have $22.5 mil, 3-year deal with huston street, and $7.55-mil, 2-yr deal with betancourt. good job by tracy
Rich,
Haven’t they done that? They resisted trading Chamberlain and Hughes for Santana and Halladay. They have held onto Montero and Romine when they could have moved them for other players.
They traded Austin Jackson, a guy the organization is split on re: his ceiling, for Curtis Granderson. that’s not exactly throwing away the system. They got the better player in return.
Ian Kennedy had no role here with Mitre, Gaudin and Nova in front of him. He’s a back of the rotation guy and the Yankees are filled with them at this time.
Dunn is guy who can’t find the plate. A boom or bust type. With DeLaRosa’s future possiblity in the bullpen, he was expendable.
Vizcaino is a short season arm. Impossible to know what he is and they have some RH arms at that level they are very excited about.
I don’t really see how they have hurt the system with these deals.
They have kept their high end guys and dealt for quality major league talent in return.
That was the point of my post. You can do both and when the Yankees were at their most successful the last 15 years, that’s how they have gone about their business.
People are still complaining about losing Vizcaino?
========
GB7,
Just think of the bright side. It has distracted them from complaining about losing Tabata. You would think Ajax would be getting more love being that he proved it in higher levels than THE VIZ.
I’m not anti-prospect. I think however that some folks get overly giddy over guys who are 3-4 years away from the majors and it clouds their judgments.
Major league GM’s, especially Brian Cashman, get rings and contract extensions for winning World Series. They get squat for having Baseball America crow about their minor league system.
In a short period of time, the Yankees have put the system back on track. Is it perfect? Of course not. No system is perfect.
However, when you see the number of homegrown guys who contributed to the 2009 championship, and you are able to move some talent to get Granderson and Vasquez, the organization is going in the proper direction.
S.o.S.(MOMENTUM shmomentum)
January 19th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
People are still complaining about losing Vizcaino?
========
GB7,
Just think of the bright side. It has distracted them from complaining about losing Tabata. You would think Ajax would be getting more love being that he proved it in higher levels than THE VIZ.
————————————————————
I hated to see Tabata go, too, but, he was clearly stalling out and had become more of a distraction than he was worth. The outcome of the deal may or may not work out, but, he clearly wasn’t worth a spot on the 40 man roster the way he was. I loved Jackson’s skills and hustle, but, this isn’t quite the Buhner for Phelps trade. What’s not to love about Granderson who won’t be 29 until March. Same with kennedy. NYY has his replacements. You’re correct about not much of an uproar over losing Jackson, but, I think that’s because of the quality of return. I was more upset with them moving Coke and Bruney, though.
“One can love his arm and his potential. However, to label him the #1 pitching prospect in the organization is an incorrect evaluation, IMO because its not coming from the team.”
——————————–
Labeling Viz “arguably the #1 pitching prospect” is not incorrect and not really the point you seem to be making.
The point you seem to be making is in regard to the definition of “#1 pitching prospect.” You view it as more of who has the most value to the big league club at this very moment. However, a lot of people and I suspect a lot of teams in baseball do not view their prospects in this regard. When ranking prospects they view them as a combination of who has the most value to the team right now (ie who is the closest to the majors) and more importantly who has the most talent or best peripherals that would lead to major league success.
The point is that you can certainly make a valid argument that Viz was the Yankees best pitching prospect. He had the most talent and highest ceiling in their system. To a team like the Braves they could very well have viewed Viz as more valuable then a guy like McAllister.
Finally, you have made the point several times that the Yankee system is as much about trading guys as it is about getting guys to the majors. However, I do not think a guy like McAllister who has talent and is close to the bigs could bring you back a guy like Vazquez who just last season finished 4th in the Cy Young voting.
Finally, even if we go with your argument and say that evaluation is incorrect because it is not from the Yankees then you are leading us to believe the Yankee front office is correct 100% of the time. Just because the Yankees (if this is even true) did not view Viz as their best pitching prospect, does not mean he was not.
ignore the first finally. typo…
“Their scouting is state of the art. That’s the point.”
rich in nj-
i think the point is they have sent a huge number of players each year from their triple a team to help out at the mlb level in addition to players like mauer and morneau.
i had not heard it said before that cashman considers them state of the art at doing this, but that’s very interesting to me because the twins are so different than the yankees.
the twins from what i’ve seen are very low tech. they do things they seem to do things opposite way that cashman does. if computers didn’t exist, i don’t think they’d be doing anything much differently.
what do you mean when you say their scouting is state of the art? do you think they actually pay much attention to any of the sabermetric stuff that you are interested in ?
if you don’t see it as ironic that cashman says they’re state of the art, i think you’re missing something.
personally , i love the way the twins do it. i think sabermetrics is great for people that don’t know the game from playing it. if you know it from playing it,i feel there is very little that it tells you.
if you want to know why the twins have done so well with their minor league system. it’s because they’ve had triple a managers who didn’t know what sabermetric meant.
i don’t have a problem with you or cashman depending on sabermetrics to understand the game, but don’t think for a second that’s how the twins do it.
seriously, i’m not bashig you or cashman,but i think you have a very big misperception how the twins do it at the minor league level.
Its impossible for any team to value a short season A Ball a pitcher, with less than 75 innings as a professional, as their best pitching prospect.
Its like taking a HS senior or college freshman and declaring them your “best prospect” based on a small sample size of work. That’s just not how major league teams operate.
The Braves needed to dump salary. They tried to move Lowe before Vasquez and didn’t get a sniff. They traded Vasquez because of money and not because of Vizcaino.
At best, he is 3-4 years away from the majors. No team trades their best pitcher for a guy that far away from the majors, regardless of where people rank him, unless its for financial reasons.
Randy L,
You make a good point about the Twins approach, but I think the larger point is that the Twins tend to get the most our of their resources. Maybe their scouting isn’t “state of the art”, but it’s probably among the best in baseball. I’d add that their development system seems to do a good job of teaching the game, as well.
The Yankees use sabermetrics as a supplement to their eyeball scouting. It doesn’t trump it.
Some teams rely 80-20 on sabermetrics to eyeball scouting.
The Yankees are more 60-40 eyeball scouting to sabermetric evaluations.
They used to be 95-5 eyeball-sabermetric until Cashman took over.
Their sabermetric evaluations are also confined mostly to their major league scouting.
At the minor league level, you don’t get too into sabermetrics. Its more about developing talent at every level.
For example, guys with high walk rates (as hitters) at the lower levels means little because pitchers have trouble throwing strikes at that level.
The same goes for power. Bigger ballparks in areas where the ball doesn’t carry well (especially at the lower levels) affects power numbers.
At the lower levels, its all about teaching and development. That’s where the rubber meets the road when it comes to developing homegrown talent.
I don’t get Yankee fans who pine away for every prospect.
Name me the last Yankee prospect that the team has given away who has come back and bitten the team. Mike Lowell maybe?
The Yankees have the resources to easily replace a guy like Vizciano long before the team would have ever needed him to contribute at the major league level. So they trade Vizciano, so what? You don’t think they’ll be able to find another high ceiling pitcher to either go above slot for in the draft or sign as an international free agent?
The Yankees have their major league roster locked up in most places for the near future not just with good players but with great players, so the logical way that a prospect helps this club is by being traded to address a need.
The Yankees with Javy Vazquez are better than the Yankees with Vizciano – Javy Vazquez will do more to help the team this year (and possibly next year as well) than Vizciano would.
It is not like the Braves could only deal with the Yankees. There are plenty of teams in baseball who would want and could afford Vazquez.
Additionally, they clearly viewed Vazquez as a valuable piece, considering they gave 3 million to Melky, which made it not a pure salary dump. If it was a salary dump they would have taken Gardner or someone else.
And minor league numbers do not necessarily give you the best read on the guy. Shelly Duncan puts up great numbers in the minors but the scouts tell you he has no real talent.
You do not need a huge sample to see Viz had a ton of talent and great peripherals. Because of this potential he was very valuable to the Yankees as he was able to land a very good pitcher in a trade.
My point is Mike’s quote that Viz was “arguably” the Yanks #1 pitching prospect is not incorrect and can certainly be made.
GreenBeret7 January 19th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
Yeah, I’d hate to see that bat get traded, because he could fill in at 5 spots, eventually….1st, 3rd, both corner outfields and DH. Like you say, though, he could be moved in a trade, but, he’s no throw-in.
___________________
I hear ya, GB. Only reason I brought up the trade was he’s pretty well blocked at the IF corners for the foreseeable future. Adding some corner OF ability to his repertoire would definitely improve his chances that he makes it to the bigs as a Yank, IMO.
Name the “plenty of teams” that could take on Javy’s salary for one year at this late date. “Late” in terms of teams salary budgets being used.
Kids in short season ball don’t have “periphrals” yet. That’s a stathead term not yet applicable to someone with such a small body of work.
Brian Cashman and the Yankees clearly didn’t see Vizcaino as their #1 pitching prospect or they wouldn’t have dealt him for one year of Vasquez. That’s not how Cashman has done his business since he took over and I don’t believe he is changing it for Vasquez if he didn’t change it for Halladay or Santana.
Re: Javy, there aren’t with 11.5 million in salary space to take on his contract. Especially for what little they gave up for him.
The Dodgers and Angels can’t. Nor can the Red Sox. The Phillies can’t since they got Halladay.
The Mets? They can’t seem to get out of their own way.
You start going down the list and its pretty obvious this was a salary dump and nothing more.
Am I missing something folks:
The Yankees got one of the NL’s best starters last year. The Braves got a guy who is a 4th outfielder, a LHP who walks too many bats, and a prospect who is at least 3 years away – and that’s if everything breaks right.
Does anyone here really believe that the Yankees won’t be able to find an arm to replace him? Can anyone tell me for certain that Vizciano is going to be the second coming of King Felix – or even as good as Javy Vazquez? He has not done anything above short season baseball – he has wonderful stuff but I would wager that the list of pitching prospects with “wonderful stuff” who have flamed out before ever reaching the majors is a lot higher than the list of pitchers with “wonderful stuff” who have become impact pitchers in the majors.
rodg12
January 19th, 2010 at 1:54 pm
GreenBeret7 January 19th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
Yeah, I’d hate to see that bat get traded, because he could fill in at 5 spots, eventually….1st, 3rd, both corner outfields and DH. Like you say, though, he could be moved in a trade, but, he’s no throw-in.
___________________
I hear ya, GB. Only reason I brought up the trade was he’s pretty well blocked at the IF corners for the foreseeable future. Adding some corner OF ability to his repertoire would definitely improve his chances that he makes it to the bigs as a Yank, IMO.
————————————————————
I think that NYY may start shifting some of these more talented catchers/infielders around, just to see if it helps to make them more valuab;e, either in promotions or trades. Laird’s lack of any real footspeed may be an issue, but, others have played a credible outfield in Ys and done pretty well. Howard and Berra come to mind, as does Hank Bauer and Gene Woodling. NYY hasn’t been very experimental over the last 30 years or so, though other than Posada and a couple of others. Maybe it changes.
SJ –
Obviously it was a salary dump. The Braves needed to clear the salary of either Javy or Lowe and no one would even talk to them about Lowe. The Yankees gave up nothing that matters for him. Whatever they lost in Dunn they get back with Logan. Melky can be an everyday player for the Yankees because their lineup is deep enough to carry his bat and Viz is at best 3 years away – if that doesn’t scream that the Braves were just looking to pare payroll than I don’t know what would.
GB -
Laird’s biggest problem may not be his footspeed it may be his head. After the incident with him and his brother in Arizona I’m sure the Yankees will keep him on a short leash and if he screws up they will move him the same way they moved Tabata.
“Boston had the best offseason of any contender..”
Yeah, when they lost Jason Bay and his 170 strikeouts they went right out and replaced those Ks by signing Cameron
sj,
what do you think the likelihood of vasquez singing a long term contract with the yankees would be? if he goes 15-8 with a 4.0 era and 210 innings pitched, would the yankees give him 3/40?
Don’t be stupid, Chimp. There’s nothing that Laird didn’t do that almost everyone else hasn’t done. There’s nothing wrong with “his head”.
“At the minor league level, you don’t get too into sabermetrics. Its more about developing talent at every level.”
“At the lower levels, its all about teaching and development. That’s where the rubber meets the road when it comes to developing homegrown talent.”
sj44-
i think you know that while i don’t spend much time on statistical analysis i don’t think it’s a waste of time either. nor do i think people that use it are of a low level as far as basball knowledge.
with me it’s like having a GPS in your car. a great technological innovation, but not really necessary if you going somewhere you already now the way.
to me sabermetrics is a GPS for people new in the game who don’t know the way. it’s a great tool. baseball is big business so tehre are tons of people in the game who know the business end , but not the baseball end.
like theo, like cashman, the guys in tampa etc. cashman has been around so long he knows the game without the statistical analysis and sabermetrics. i agree the yankees are a hybrid system between old school and new school and last year it came together.
i do think a team like the twins is very retro in the sense that they still do things the old fashioned way. personally because that’s the way i am . i like it. but i see other ways of doing it.
there doesn’t have to be one way to do things.as a matter of fact having ideas compete is one of the best ways to figure put the value of different philosophies.
as far as teaching and development , i agree totally.
a couple of years ago , i was having dinner after a twins triple a game with the coaching staff. in between wings and beers, they were talking about a kid third baseman who had came up from double a and played third that night. they basically said deer in headlights and what were they going to do with him.
they concluded they were going to have to teach him how to play at that level since he really wasn’t ready.
that kid in last year’s mlb playoffs came up with the tying or winning run in the last inning with i think two outs and after a lengthy at bat knocked a ground ball up the middle to tie or win the game. tolleson was his name i think. that was twins baseball right there.
the point is ,as you say, teaching the young players how to play.
YellowBeret: on that we’ll have to agree to disagree since I don’t think “almost everyone” has been arrested for a bar fight.
KD – I would say the odds are slim on Javy coming back next year. With Beckett and Lee both free agents (likely) and the Yankees having Joba, Hughes, Nova, etc. They will most likely let Javy go (and Andy retire).
Man, people that skydive are crazy. The attached clip shows just how many insane people there are that would willingly jump from perfectly safe airplanes.
Well, only most of them are crazy. There are a few exceptions.
http://www.necn.com/Boston/Wor.....99994.html
Chip, I know GB can fight his own battles but the quip of YellowBeret, goes beyond bad taste. It was not necessary. If you want to insult him do so but not the legacy he carries. That is uncalled for.
You can take Felix off the list.
Am i alone in thinking that alot of these 2010 saught after free agents will not be available come October?
Mauer?
Crawford?
Lee?
There is no way Beckett is a Yankee. I put him in the Schilling category. Players that would be hit with soap in the towel in the locker room by the entire team. No way no how.
Is it spring training yet?
“see if the Red Sox have anybody with the ratings that Montero and Romine have as position players at the present time.”
Montero is rated better than anyone in the Sox system, but numerous evaluations have Westmoreland over Romine, and Kadish and Reddick and perhaps even Rizzo as good as Romine.
Just cause we’re Yankee fans doesn’t make all the Yankee prospects better.
Mauer? No
Crawford? No
Lee? Yes
SJ44 is exactly right re: team philosophies on traditional scouting vs using statistics. Theo Epstein expounded on this topic several years ago in a chat with fans.
(This is ripped from a recent replacement level yankees blog but..) He said,
“For players in the rookie leagues and the lower levels, we focus more on traditional scoutings and tools. As the player rises through the minors, we shift our emphasis towards performance and statistical evaluation. When a player reaches AA, we balance these two schools of evaluation 50-50… and it more or less remains that way.”
Obviously not every team does it this way but I think every team weights scouting and statistics in some way. There are no teams that rely solely on stats or solely on scouting. Even the Twins, who have no stats department, use very basic stats to evaluate players (runs scored, wins, rbi’s, saves, LMFAO)
Nobody is saying that Wave.
Only Jim Callis thinking Josh Reddick is a prospect. Most everybody else sees him as a fringe major leaguer at best.
Ryan Westmoreland’s evaluations have been split. Some like him, some don’t. Overall, he’s not seen as a future ML as much as Romine is.
Kadish is in Romine’s class.
Being a contrarian doesn’t always mean you are correct either.
Cliff Lee and Carl Crawford will hit the open market IMO.
Joe Mauer will get a deal done with the Twins.
Bronx Born,
I’m not insulting anyone. As for the legacy that his posting name carries, I have nothing but respect for the work done for men and women in uniform. Doesn’t mean that I would let an active duty or retired soldier mock my name without retort.
And, just something to keep in mind – while I have no doubt that he who calls himself GreenBeret served and would not stoop so low as to call him a liar about his time in service – I would point out that I could change my name to Giant LineBacker 56 – doesn’t make it so.
Chip, then mock him. I have no problem with that, though I think name calling on a blog is a bit childish, don’t you think? But I do have a problem with calling him yellow beret. I think that goes beyond simply mocking someone. I don’t agree with you on this. It is not just a matter of semantics, it is a matter of principle for me here. Call him whatever name you like, but this one is just not okay by me. Also your analogy just does not cut it.
SJ44-
Both Minor League Ball and Baseball Prospectus rate Westmoreland over Romine. Both rate Kalish and Reddick as highly as Romine.
What you mean to say is, no one that you agree with rates Westmoreland that highly, or Kalish or Reddick that highly.
Which is fine – nothing wrong with that. But precision is important.
“There is no way Beckett is a Yankee.”
Wouldn’t be the end of the world, but I kind of doubt it happens. He’s going to be a tough sign IMO. He’s not in the class of a Sabathia or Halladay. He just doesn’t give the quite the quality nor the quantity those guys do. Those extra 30-40 innings the true horses give you that Beckett doesn’t has to have some value. A very good starter gets 19-20 outs per outing. 30 or 40 extra innings is 90-120 outs, or the equivalent of 5-6 good starts. Those are 5-6 starts that Beckett doesn’t give you and have to be pitched by either a 6th starter or bullpenners, who are generally inferior. Halladay and Sabathia are $20M+ guys. What’s that make Beckett?
I would point out that I could change my name to Giant LineBacker 56 – doesn’t make it so.
=========
Everyone knows if you were the REAL Lawrence Taylor you would just go with the letters L.T.. I would have sniffed it a mile away.
“You can take Felix off the list.
Am i alone in thinking that alot of these 2010 saught after free agents will not be available come October?
Mauer?
Crawford?
Lee?
There is no way Beckett is a Yankee. I put him in the Schilling category. Players that would be hit with soap in the towel in the locker room by the entire team. No way no how.”
Reminds you as yo why inking CC and Tex was so important last year.
I think Crawford and Lee are still likely to hit the market and that Mauer and Beckett will not. If the latter is healthy the Sox will push for an extension before the season is over and he’ll probably take it. Those would be the too main interests of the Yanks anyway (I assume). I would prefer a different outfielder, but I like Lee in the rotation if possible.
Frank,
Players IMO that would never be Yankees.
Whos your daddy
F&*@ face
Ketchup
Ooogly
Kibler
Im pregnant
C-oward in a mask
The sox newly signed Kermit the frog
The man they call Nancy
Did i miss anyone?
New thread fellas.
S.o.S.(MOMENTUM shmomentum)
January 19th, 2010 at 2:59 pm
I would point out that I could change my name to Giant LineBacker 56 – doesn’t make it so.
=========
Everyone knows if you were the REAL Lawrence Taylor you would just go with the letters L.T.. I would have sniffed it a mile away.
************************
Wait, so now that I have alot more time on my hands I won’t be able to use LT as my sign on?
“Both Minor League Ball and Baseball Prospectus rate Westmoreland over Romine. Both rate Kalish and Reddick as highly as Romine.”
Reddick is a little older than Kalish and Romine and his progress seemed to stall once hitting AAA. He was having a nice run in AA though. Numbers suggest that his progress maybe hasn’t been as good as he climbs the ladder as it has been for Kalish and Romine. Kalish had a pretty nice 2/3 of a season in AA at 21, and Romine will be there at 21 this year. Jury’s out on all of them though.
lower case l.t.. CHOKER in front of it wouldnt hurt.
I think he’s played his last game in S.D..
Re: Beckett
Highly unlikely Beckett will re-sign with Boston. He’ll want at least Lackey money and for the same amount of years (5) which Boston won’t do. He’s watched Pedroia, Youkilis, and Lester sign for hometown discounts and will be up for the last big contract of his career.
Beckett is a Texas boy and once the ownership of the Rangers is resolved, he’s high on their priority list.
New post.
“He’s watched Pedroia, Youkilis, and Lester sign for hometown discounts and will be up for the last big contract of his career.”
They didn’t sign for hometown discounts.
The Yankees big needs are another starter, two outfielders and a catcher when Posada finally starts acting his age. The farm system has Montero, who I would put in the outfield and Romine, who I see as the future catcher. However, I would love to see the Yankees sign Mauer next year and, if there’s money left over, Crawford. Those signings will make the farm system look a lot better. We also need a starter. If it was me, I’d sign Wang and Bedard on the cheap this year and, if they don’t work out, go after Lee, big time, next year. There are no starters that you can rely on to come thru in the system including Chamberlain and Hughes.
SJ44
January 19th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
I agree it was a salary dump, but it was also because SP is a position of depth for them. I’m sure they liked Melky & Viz, but the salary dump was their main target!
randy l.
January 19th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
As an engineer I am a stat head by nature! That said, I bellieve the eyes over stats! When I was a HS Soph a senior on the track team was behind me on the depth chart as a sprinter. I could look at me (fast) & him (blazing) and could tell who had the higher upside, but the metrics did not support it as he couldn’t get out of the starting blocks!! LOL! BTW, he ran in the olympics as a sprinter. I of course never came close to that!!