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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Does Gardner need a platoon partner?

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jan 28, 2010 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Even with switch-hitter Randy Winn in the mix, the Yankees might not be finished with their outfield shopping. Brian Cashman has previously said he’d like to add a right-handed bat to complement the lefties Brett Gardner and Curtis Granderson, and there are still some right-handers out there who might come cheap. Minor league deals might not be out of the question.

Granderson has the worst career splits against left-handed pitching of all the Yankees outfielders. He’s hit just .210 against them in his big league career, but the Yankees expect Granderson to be an everyday player, and are apparently hoping Kevin Long can get some things straightened out. Nick Swisher is a switch hitter who’s splits are fairly insignificant — better OBP one way, better SLG the other – and Rule 5 pick Jamie Hoffmann is a right-hander who hit .308/.432/.542 against lefties in the minors last season.

That leaves Gardner, and as Doug mentioned in his guest post this morning, Gardner’s career doesn’t suggest a platoon partner is necessary.

Gardner actually hit better against lefties than against righties last season. His vs. LHP splits were outstanding (.291/.381/.400) and his minor league numbers suggest it wasn’t a fluke. Gardner hit .292/.361/.406 against lefties in the minors. His on-base percentage was higher against right-handers — almost .400 — but his batting average and slugging were better against lefties. In 2008, Gardner hit .327/.410/.500 against Triple-A left-handers. Just like his career numbers, his on-base percentage was better against right-handers, but his average and slugging were better against lefties.

“I like facing lefties,” Gardner said earlier this month. “I don’t know why that is. My first year or two in pro ball, I didn’t do too well against lefties. The last few years, I’ve actually hit lefties pretty well. I see the ball good against them. It doesn’t really matter to me, lefty or righty.”

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252 Responses to “Does Gardner need a platoon partner?”

  1. The Phranchise January 28th, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    Chad, it seems like people think very little of Gardner overall which to me differs from what the Yankees think. Ultimately, don’t the Yankees want Gardner out there as much as possible next year to see what he can do and if he gets on. Randy Winn at that price allows for money in the budget to make a trade later if they figure he can’t cut it out there. I just think batting ninth with his speed he can create so much.

    How about Towers getting hired by the Yankees !!! Some more baseball people Cash is building around him.

  2. tex's friend January 28th, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    no platoon. either he starts or he doesn’t. he is what we have so he should take the ball and run with it until it begins costing us games.

  3. tex's friend January 28th, 2010 at 12:11 pm

    like team Cash/Towers

  4. m January 28th, 2010 at 12:14 pm

    No need for a strict platoon. The fact that Winn can also play RF makes for some interesting substitution possibilities. If Hoffman sticks, he also presents pinch running/defensive substitution possibilities.

    Once upon a time Joe Torre sat down Abreu against tough lefties. Perhaps if Girardi does that for Gardner, he can have a nice shiny batting average like Bobby. ;)

  5. Matt DiBari January 28th, 2010 at 12:20 pm

    I think he’s going to need a replacement. Does that count?

  6. S.o.S. January 28th, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    from previous thread

    Winn 141 career hits?
    I guess 2 million dollars doesnt get you much these days.

    Im sorry fellas. Im going to have to be the villian here. Damon showed from the start that it was always about the money and not about the team. From coming out and saying I would never be a Yankee to Dont even present an offer if it isnt at 13 mil. Nick Johnson took less to comeback home. He also was signed to be the dh. That pretty much put the nail in Johnny’s coffin. I rooted for him when he was a Yank just like any other player. But once HE decided to play hard ball and go for more change. He became an after thought. This situation reminds me alot of the Giambi one last off season. Plenty wanted him back but in the end, letting him go was the best thing Cash could have done. I see Damon continuing his spiral decline this upcoming season and beyond. Some here wanted him to resign more than he did himself. Thats not a player i want on my team. Better letting him go now than later. Time to move on and welcome out 2010 squad.

  7. paco dooley January 28th, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    great guest post!

    makes me feel better with gardner, but his stats may not project to a whole season

  8. DaSaint007 January 28th, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    Hoffmann has very little margin for failure, before he’s shipped back to the Dodgers. If he were to remain on the team for the year, I’d be most surprised. The Yankees seeking another righty bat off the bench says to me that they feel the same. They’re not carrying 6 OF.

  9. Nick in SF in Vallejo January 28th, 2010 at 12:23 pm

    “he is what we have so he should take the ball and run with it until it begins costing us games.”

    Taking the ball and running with it might work better than throwing it for speedy Gardner.

  10. Frank Da Tank January 28th, 2010 at 12:26 pm

    I think Cash has a better team for 2010. But lets remember that by July this team will be very different.

  11. Erin January 28th, 2010 at 12:27 pm

    Nick in SF in Vallejo
    January 28th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
    “he is what we have so he should take the ball and run with it until it begins costing us games.”

    Taking the ball and running with it might work better than throwing it for speedy Gardner.

    *********************
    LOL-I’d kind of like to see that ;)

  12. Don't Hassle the Hoff January 28th, 2010 at 12:27 pm

    Gomes

  13. Frank January 28th, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    “Im sorry fellas. Im going to have to be the villian here. Damon showed from the start that it was always about the money and not about the team”

    They’re almost all about the money first.

  14. Rick January 28th, 2010 at 12:30 pm

    Normally, Tony Pena is the busiest coach in spring training and no doubt he’ll be drilling the catching corps with his usual dilligence but so will Kevin Long with hitters.
    He’ll want to bring up to snuff the hitting of Gardner, Granderson, and Winn.
    Frankie Cervelli will get extra attention and Long will want to be sure that A-Rod doesn’t fall back to bad plate habits that were corrected last year.

  15. trisha - OPPC forever - (new lucky picture from last day at the old Stadium) BRING ON THE GHOSTS! January 28th, 2010 at 12:31 pm

    (from previous thread)

    I’m amused by anyone who points to a career year in the last year of a contract year! Yeah, that’s a novelty.

    IMO some people never have the ability to look at the big picture and get really stuck in the weeds. Those are the people who will still be whining about Damon not coming back in the middle of the season. In fact, the first time Garnder or Winn mess up, watch for the Greek chorus to fly in.

    It takes a mature person to realize that the Yankee organization is much smarter than the entire fan base put together. After all, it wasn’t the negotiating strategy of the fan base that brought the Yankees to where they are.

    When your favorite player is no longer with the team, you suck it up; and if you’re at all aware, you realize that the team will continue to thrive and survive, despite your hurt feelings. You also realize that nobody is cornering the market on what should have happened, if you read the posts. For every person who is wearing black today because Damon is gone, there are as many who have either moved on or, horrors, actually believe it’s for the best.

    I may have strong opinions but I think what really grounds me is the knowledge that the real brains are the ones making the decisions, not the ones crowing or whining about them. I have had favorite players who are no longer around but I swear the minute I found out they were not going to be a part of the team, I quickly figured out that the Yankees made a decision for the good of the team. The Yankees are an organization built around winning – psychically and interactively. Especially now that Torre is gone, they don’t do anything in a punishing sense. If they felt they needed Damon to win, Damon would be here.

    I guess I can’t wrap my mind around the fact that there are actually fans who feel personally hurt when something happens with which they don’t agree. But it’s apparent that they do. That’s pretty weird.

    IMO if you’re a fan of the laundry you root for the laundry. Winn is here. I swear that some of you are probably rooting for him to fail so you can assuage your own hurt feelings and turn around and say “I TOLD YOU SO!”

    However, take this with you. No matter how Winn or Gardner or anyone else performs, you have no idea how Damon would have performed were he brought back. Please don’t pretend you do.

    Erica, this has nothing to do with you. I know how fond you have been as Johnny as a player. It has to hurt to see him go. But I think I also know you well enough to know that you are not rooting against anyone else who comes here.

    By the way, I have never seen Brian Cashman as a man of huge ego. Quite the opposite. That anyone suggests that he let his ego get in the way of the team winning is frankly ludicrous.

  16. Marc January 28th, 2010 at 12:32 pm

    This is the team they are giving us. I don’t see anyone else being signed. The 40 man is full. Maybe a minor league deal but how much will that add to the run production? I honestly feel that we will greatly miss Matsui and Damon in the line up and in the clubhouse. I’m excited to see what Granderson and Johnson can do but I’m also scared to think about what will happen if we have any injuries to Granderson, or Swisher. I like Swisher a lot, but remember he wasn’t even a starter out of Spring Training last year.

  17. trisha - OPPC forever - (new lucky picture from last day at the old Stadium) BRING ON THE GHOSTS! January 28th, 2010 at 12:32 pm

    S.O.S. – one person’s villian is another person’s voice of reason.

    You are not alone in your thinking.

  18. tex's friend January 28th, 2010 at 12:32 pm

    I’d still like to see what Colin Curtis can do.

  19. Wave Your Hat January 28th, 2010 at 12:32 pm

    Slowly coming out of the major funk I was in because of the Winn signing. Random thoughts, as I still haven’t pieced my head back together completely after it exploded:

    1. Winn can’t be a platoon partner for Gardner or Granderson, and since Gardner is the better offensive player Winn must have been signed to be the fourth or fifth outfielder, late inning defensive replacement for Swisher or a defensive replacement after Granderson or Gardner have been pinch hit for (although as we speak, on those days when Jorge is playing (most days) there is no pinch hitter on the bench to be had).

    2. Swisher’s acquisition isn’t a proper analogy for Winn’s. Swisher’s worst season (2008)was only slightly worse than Winn’s best recent seasons, and Swisher’s best seasons were much better than Winn’s recent good seasons. Plus, Swisher was much, much younger when the Yanks got him than Winn is now.

    3. Winn’s acquisition means that the Yanks intended all along for Gardner (and Granderson of course) to be full time, non-platoon type players.

    4. I am dubious that Cashman ever wanted to resign Damon. Nothing I have read is inconsistent with that. Until Damon signs somewhere, you can’t say whether Damon or the Yanks made a mistake. Time will tell on that one.

    5. The Yanks currently project to about a 100 win team. I don’t think Winn’s signing helps or hurts much in that regard. However, teams with lefties will be able to take advantage of us, and once the playoffs get here (assuming we make them of course) that will be a big problem against good teams in short series. The Yanks will probably need to acquire a righty OF before the playoffs role around.

    6. The Yanks will have an excellent defensive outfield when Granderson, Gardner and Winn all play. I don’t know if the Yanks have ever had a better defensive outfield, even including the Joe D days.

    7. I am all in favor of signing Gomes to a minor league deal if the Yanks do it.

  20. tex's friend January 28th, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    it we have injuries, cashman will bring someone in to replace them. trust me, by july, some the reds and pirates of the world will be more than happy to part with their players.

  21. tex's friend January 28th, 2010 at 12:35 pm

    I am dubious that Cashman ever wanted to resign Damon. Nothing I have read is inconsistent with that. Until Damon signs somewhere, you can’t say whether Damon or the Yanks made a mistake. Time will tell on that one.

    ____

    Yankees offered him 2 years and 14 Mil. They wanted him, but when he said no, i dont believe cashman wanted him anymore. It was probably never serious after that.

  22. Shame Spencer January 28th, 2010 at 12:37 pm

    “It takes a mature person to realize that the Yankee organization is much smarter than the entire fan base put together.”

    But at least we still know that any one Yankee fan is smarter than the entire Mets organization put together.

  23. cano he didnt January 28th, 2010 at 12:37 pm

    For some reason I would like to see Gomes on the bench or as a platoon hitter. I feel like I saw him on the MLB Network highlights often last year just absolutely mashing balls over fences. I could be completely wrong, just my memory.

  24. m January 28th, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    WYH,

    I think one of Gomes/Baldelli will sign a minor league deal with Hoffman walking the plank.

    tex’s friend,

    There’s only one time in recent memory that Cash didn’t bring help at the deadline.

  25. Wave Your Hat January 28th, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    “Yankees offered him 2 years and 14 Mil. ”

    But Boras says it was contingent on NJ. Since I don’t take what either Boras or Cashman says at face value I count Boras’ statement as much as I do Cashman’s.

  26. S.o.S. January 28th, 2010 at 12:41 pm

    Trisha,
    Good post. Its obvious we see eye to eye on this matter.

  27. tex's friend January 28th, 2010 at 12:41 pm

    “Yankees offered him 2 years and 14 Mil. ”

    But Boras says it was contingent on NJ. Since I don’t take what either Boras or Cashman says at face value I count Boras’ statement as much as I do Cashman’s.

    ___

    I wouldnt either, but Johnny Damon was the one who said this, and said nothing about NJ.

  28. randy l. January 28th, 2010 at 12:41 pm

    i’ve just got to be more open minded about using advanced metrics to decide a player’s value.

    using Wejee’s Free Numerology Calculator i’ve come up with brett gardners number.

    http://www.wejees.net/wejeesnumerology.html

    he’s an 8.

    “Your life path number is an “8″. Accomplishment and tangible power are very important to you. “Pie in the sky” is not your cup of tea. You want it now and in great abundance and you are more than willing to work very hard to get it. You will easily rise through the ranks to assume control at the very top levels of management. You have real “guts” or grit and a tangle with you is something no one wants a second time. You are for real, know exactly what you want and have every intention of getting just that. You may have a tendency to be less than exacting about the means that you use to reach the end goal you have in mind… so be careful in that area. Otherwise, you have every one’s blessing to take charge and do your thing.”

  29. Patrick January 28th, 2010 at 12:41 pm

    Even with Swisher the OF defense is good. He has above average range out there in right.

    Gomes? Not sure about him..

    I’d go after Baldelli, he still has a ton of talent.

  30. trisha - OPPC forever - (new lucky picture from last day at the old Stadium) BRING ON THE GHOSTS! January 28th, 2010 at 12:42 pm

    Wave -

    “4. I am dubious that Cashman ever wanted to resign Damon. Nothing I have read is inconsistent with that. Until Damon signs somewhere, you can’t say whether Damon or the Yanks made a mistake. Time will tell on that one.”

    I too am dubious that Cashman ever wanted to resign Damon. I continue to say that if he did, they would have found a way to work it out. JMO.

    The one thing that I never agree with – and it is really a sticking point with me – is that you can ever know if something was a mistake because it implies that you know how things would have worked out otherwise. It’s just one of the things that drives me crazy. When people would talk about Santana and say we should have gotten him because of X, Y, and Z, I would always think that there is no way to know whether what he was doing with the Mets would have translated the same way! Maybe that’s why I always move on once a move is made.

    “6. The Yanks will have an excellent defensive outfield when Granderson, Gardner and Winn all play. I don’t know if the Yanks have ever had a better defensive outfield, even including the Joe D days.”

    This thought actually gives me chills. This is a personal thing with me, but when I would watch other teams who had great defensive outfields, I would feel such envy. I have dreamed about the day that the Yankees had a solid defensive outfield. At least we know for sure that Damon in left wouldn’t have added to that picture.

    Congrats for moving on. Good job.

  31. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day January 28th, 2010 at 12:43 pm

    next up for #yanks: marcus thames, rocco baldelli or jonny gomes at low dollars. they once had thames and liked him

    -Heyman

  32. Wave Your Hat January 28th, 2010 at 12:43 pm

    “I wouldnt either, but Johnny Damon was the one who said this, and said nothing about NJ.”

    Perhaps, but as I understand it Damon’s statement was in an exchange of text messages. My experience with text messages is that they tend to be brief and are often incomplete.

  33. m January 28th, 2010 at 12:43 pm

    SoS,

    Rumors of Amare to Spurs. You like? Which forward actually plays forward? :P

  34. ArtieA January 28th, 2010 at 12:45 pm

    I agree with Wave Your Hat.

    The Yankee outfield is stronger defensively, better arms and as good as speed if not faster. We are down about 20 hrs considering Matsui vs Johnson. Granderson vs Damon probably a wash re power. But we have AROD for an extra month and Tex likely to be even more productive in the 3rd spot in his second yr. Winn’s defense is helpful but Gardner seeems to be tough as nails too, hits lefties as we have seen, and dynamite on the bases. Pitching is improved. We have a different look in the bullpen and somewhat nervous about Marte since he is proven only during the playoffs. The question of this team will be its character, will we have clutch performances again like last year eg Melky? Who’s going to be clutch against Boston now that Matsui’s gone? Let the season begin! Can’t wait to find out!

  35. Nick in SF in Vallejo January 28th, 2010 at 12:46 pm

    m, I’m suprised you’re awake so many months away from the real season.

  36. m1kew January 28th, 2010 at 12:46 pm

    I see Winn as insurance, an experienced bat coming and a late inning defensive replacement. He gives Girardi great flexibility. I have confidence in the Yankee management to give Gardner ample playing time to show whether he is a starter or not. I hope we can move on to other topics now that we know the composition of the Yankee roster for the next couple of months.

  37. trisha - OPPC forever - (new lucky picture from last day at the old Stadium) BRING ON THE GHOSTS! January 28th, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    “But at least we still know that any one Yankee fan is smarter than the entire Mets organization put together.”

    :D

  38. S.o.S. January 28th, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    mel,
    That would be a great pick up. We need another big man that can post. Who would the Spurs have to give up?

  39. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day January 28th, 2010 at 12:48 pm

    I don’t buy Boras’ BS at all. The 2/14 offer was made before NJ even entered the picture. Damon/Boras then counteroffered a 2/10 proposal, but this was awhile after the 2/14 proposal and it was while the Yankees were already deep in negotiations with NJ. So, by then, it was too late for Damon. Boras is BS and he sounds stupid. I’m not going to take the time to find the quotes, but I know Damon was quoted about the counteroffer at the time NJ was signed

  40. DaSaint007 January 28th, 2010 at 12:48 pm

    There’s still one more move that Cashman will make before Spring Training…

    And no, it’s not Kevin Towers.

  41. trisha - OPPC forever - (new lucky picture from last day at the old Stadium) BRING ON THE GHOSTS! January 28th, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    My final thought for now since I need to shove off again -

    I go into every season believing that every player is going to find a way to be a positive and contributing force on the Yankees. It’s infectious and probably part of the mystique of the pinstripes. This season is no different. Can’t wait to see Gardner’s speed and Winn’s defense. And my oh my – Curtis Granderson making his phenomenal catches, this time for us as opposed to against us.

    WOO HOO!!!

  42. G. Love January 28th, 2010 at 12:50 pm

    I agree that I’m getting the vibe that Cashman never really wanted Damon back.

    I know he made the 2 year 14 million dollar offer, but that offer seemed contingent on things at the time that would make it close to impossible for Damon to have taken it. If it was a gun to your head sign it or else we sign Nick Johnson offer, it sends a message to me that the Yankees were ready to move on from Damon.

    This always takes me back to the stuff in the Torre book about Damon wanting to retire early in his Yankee contract and having to be talked out of it.

    I just wonder if the organization held a grudge for having to put up with that kind of drama, not to mention signing him to be a CF and having to move him to LF almost immediately.

    I remember talk that he wasn’t showing up to camp in shape and that’s why he wasn’t physically equipped to play CF since his legs were not in the condition they needed to be in.

    Cashman, of course, will never come out and say that’s why they wanted to move on, but I just wonder if there was some residual bad blood.

    As for the guest post this morning, I don’t believe in projecting stats like that. You can project a hitter who has a great April and May to his 100 home runs some seasons and that never happens.

    I like Gardner, but I don’t know if he’s a starter. He has a lot to prove.

    He lost the job to Melky, although Melky lost the job to no one the previous season and got sent to AAA.

    Maybe he rebounds like Melky did.

    I do know if the guy can get on base at a .350 clip with his speed, he’s a huge weapon for this team.

    The thing that scares me about the spring is that in the first few weeks he’ll be facing pitchers trying to get into shape and younger arms not as adept as major league pitchers.

    I can see him getting off to a hot start and hitting .400 or something crazy those opening weeks and Girardi naming him the starter only to watch the average plummet as the pitchers catch up to him.

    Hopefully, that doesn’t happen and Long gets him to work on his hitting issues.

    The fact of the matter is though no one in here can sit here and tell us he can’t get better and do the job.

    A lot of the people trying to tell us he can’t do the job are people who unabashedly love Melky and Melky did the job so well in 2008 he lost it and went to AAA during the season.

  43. m January 28th, 2010 at 12:51 pm

    SoS,

    GiNOOOObli & rotation pieces. Found it at “Ball Don’t Lie”. Spurs may be in “win now” mode. Tell Parker to see my guy for some ankle insurance.

    (nick-it’s always hunting season with SoS and his trash-talking ways. ;) )

  44. S.o.S. January 28th, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    mel,
    I heard yesterday on the radio that the Lakers might be going after Heinrich. I think hes a good get. Phil was on the radio today he seemed to not like the Bosch for Bynum deal.

  45. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day January 28th, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    I don’t see the Yankees just returning Hoffman to the Dodgers without giving him a real chance to make the team; they seem to like him a lot.

  46. m1kew January 28th, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    Off topic but just an observation – in the 50s, 60s and 70s there was comparatively little changes in baseball rosters season to season. It is striking how much constructing a team has changed since the advent of free agency.

    In case anyone is thinking I am pining for the “old days” … not so … the offseason is much more fun and interesting now.

  47. just wondering ....... January 28th, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    Is it Scott Boras or Johnny Damon that likes sweet & sour sauce on their crow ?

  48. Frank Da Tank January 28th, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    Yankees dont need matsui to be clutch vs the Sox e have Jeter and say what you want about A-Rod but he always hits the sox. Remember that homerun vs Schill in the 9th in 08. This team can hit anyone.

  49. m January 28th, 2010 at 12:55 pm

    You know a RH utility guy would’ve been good to have. Didn’t really see a need for Hairston, but he’d make the team quite complete (absence the sentimental faves like melky, damon, hideki).

  50. Nick in SF in Vallejo January 28th, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    I get ‘ya, m. His football team is about to win the SB so you attack at another point of weakness. You crazy trash talkers.

    Speaking of trash talk, imagine what would be coming out of the front office about Damon if the Yanks operated like the Red Sox. :shock:

  51. Gardner in CF January 28th, 2010 at 12:57 pm

    I still say offer Ryan Freel a minor-league contract. If he’s healthy he’d play a great utility role, essentially replacing Hairston.

  52. m January 28th, 2010 at 12:59 pm

    SoS,

    I’ve heard Heinrich, but who goes back? We need everyone but Walton, Sasha, and Ammo. Not sure if any of those are expiring contracts, tho.

    Bynum woke up a bit after missing the team flight to Toronto. Had a “blueprint” game at Indiana. Bynum’s not going anywhere, and he’ll just have to be the 3rd dog for now.

  53. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day January 28th, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    I’m not sure why so many people are buying what Boras is trying to sell with regards to that comment about the 2/14 offer having anything to do with NJ

  54. Chip January 28th, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    I agree with what Gardner said – that it doesn’t matter whether he faces a lefty or righty – he hasn’t proven he can hit either.

    I think Winn ends up as the team’s starting LF and they add either Gomes, Thames or Baldelli to the bench and Brett either goes to AAA or is dealt to help replenish the farm a bit.

  55. S.o.S. January 28th, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    His football team is about to win the SB

    ========

    Man i hope your right. With N.O. having the best offense in the league. A couple stalled drives could be the end of the game. Hope Brees is as shaky in this game on 3rd downs as he was vs. the Vikings.

    And yes. Its good to be me this year. Red Wings go to the finals, Tarheels win it, Longhorns go as well, Yanks win it all and now the Colts.

    Cant wait to see what 2010 has in store.

  56. S.o.S. January 28th, 2010 at 1:05 pm

    mel,
    Sasha and that guy that gives the players towels and water. “Hey you morrison” is what i believe they call him. Farmar isnt going to be a happy camper. I think hes next to go it they do swing this deal.

  57. JohnC January 28th, 2010 at 1:07 pm

    Towers knows young talent. Wonder if he will be working with Oppenheimer on this year’s draft.

  58. m January 28th, 2010 at 1:07 pm

    Chip,

    Replinish with what? Fertilizer? I’m not saying that Gardner won’t ever be dealt, but Gardner has value in that he can help the big league club.

    What kind of talent do you see coming back for Gardner? And what other similar trades have you seen where a 3/4OF brings back something?

  59. sierchio January 28th, 2010 at 1:09 pm

    Remember last Spring Training when Gardner had the most HR’s on the Yankees??? Yeah… S.T. numbers don’t mean anything…

  60. m January 28th, 2010 at 1:10 pm

    Ooh. I/They like Farmar. Really taking to the role right now. Right now there’s a mini-battle for first guard off the bench between him and Shannon Brown. Fisher is the linch-pin here.

  61. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2010 at 1:13 pm

    They aren’t going to trade Gardner if his offense doesn’t improve or if it slips. He has more value to NYY as a 4th outfielder/pinch runner than he does to any other team.

  62. S.o.S. January 28th, 2010 at 1:13 pm

    We can trade Gardner and pick up a minor leaguer with legs to take his spot. Whats bubba doing these days?

  63. ANSKY January 28th, 2010 at 1:14 pm

    I’ve always thought that Gardner wasn’t a starting outfielder ‘yet’. Apparently he’s always done better than expected or was projected. That he’s been a guy with some weaknesses, and the kind of player who wasn’t ready to make the step to the majors until last year, that he wasn’t what you’d want from a starter. These are the things you’d read about him all the time, but that never stopped him from getting better.

    Sure, he wasn’t/isn’t a high ceiling prospect. Has he been a guy who you’d want to platoon in the OF or have come off the bench in certain situations? Yeah, that’s where he was last year. No guarantees he won’t be the same player this coming year too. But who’d have expected him to hit for the average he hit for last year? Is that his ceiling? Well, that he hasn’t hit higher than that doesn’t mean that it is. But that he probably won’t be hitting like the ’80′s version of Wade Boggs doesn’t necessarily mean he won’t ever hit .300+ or have a .370+OBP either.

    A year ago the skinny on him according to the blog sounded like he was limited to hitting around .220 for his career or something like that. He hit .270/.345/.379. The BA was a nice surprise, I think he can improve it … he was around .280 for a while before getting hurt. The OBP and SLG aren’t great, but for the type of player he should be trying top be he should worry more about the OBP than the SLG.

    One thing he has proven is that although he has weaknesses, he finds ways to improve. Will he be a .300+BA .400+OBP hitter this coming year? Probably not. Give him time though. Even if he comes close on either stat, that’s far better than most people thought he’d ever get.

  64. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 1:14 pm

    The organization held no grudge with Damon. If they did, Hal, Randy Levine and Cashman wouldn’t have spent all the phone time with him in the last 3 days trying to get him to take their final offer.

    They don’t do that with guys they don’t want back. They didn’t do it with Giambi, for example.

    The offer of 2/14 was a legitimate offer. It was not a confusing text message or anything of the sort.

    If Johnny took the offer, they would have signed him.

    They needed an answer because Nick Johnson had an offer from the Giants (for more money than the Yankees offer) that he was going to take at the time the two offers (Yankees and Giants) were on the table.

    Cashman knew that if Boras dragged it out, his options to replace Damon would dwindle. In other words, the Yankees wanted this done on their timetable and not Boras’. If he waits, Scott has all the leverage, plays the media game, and tries to force the Yankees to pay Damon more than their original offer.

    In most of Scott’s cases, the longer he waits, the more money he gets his clients. Its not exactly a “mystery” strategy in baseball circles.

    It worked with Matt Holliday. It failed with Johnny Damon.

    Only way you can say it didn’t fail is if Johnny gets a 2/15 million or more deal from somebody else.

    Absent that, its a failed negotiation from the Boras/Damon side because he would be taking less money than what the Yankees offered in December.

  65. 7789 January 28th, 2010 at 1:16 pm

    Gardner has value on the bench. He has great speed and can play late inning defense. Dont see how he gets sent back to the minors even if he is not a starter.

    I see Winn as being Melky replacement. And Girardi will use Winn/Gardner the same kind of way. Play whoever is hitting well and sit whoever is in a slump.

  66. m January 28th, 2010 at 1:18 pm

    Maybe Chip is right. :)

    “Joel Sherman of the New York Post says the Reds, Padres, White Sox, and Royals inquired on the Yankees’ Brett Gardner this winter, with hopes of using him as a starting center fielder. ”

    from mlbtr

  67. DaSaint007 January 28th, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    I think the real battle now will be seeing what the bullpen looks like behind Rivera, Marte, Aceves, and Robertson.

    Only three (3) slots are open. A multitude of candidates include:
    Melancon – possible
    Albaladejo – don’t see it happening
    Logan – don’t want to see it happening
    Ring – he’ll most likely battle Logan for the other LH spot
    The 3 losers of the Hughes/Chamberlain/Gaudin/Mitre battle for the #5 starting rotation slot.

  68. m January 28th, 2010 at 1:23 pm

    Here’s the article.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....4g2xDI4HyJ

  69. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 1:23 pm

    They didn’t deal him though. They want to keep him on the roster and see if he can handle more regular duty.

    They aren’t trading now. They want to see if he can do the job. If he can, he’s a weapon at 400K per year.

    If he can’t, they will move onto Plan B.

    They sign add a RH hitting OF to a minor league contract and hope he can stick as a bench piece.

  70. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2010 at 1:23 pm

    m
    January 28th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
    Maybe Chip is right.

    “Joel Sherman of the New York Post says the Reds, Padres, White Sox, and Royals inquired on the Yankees’ Brett Gardner this winter, with hopes of using him as a starting center fielder. ”

    from mlbtr

    ————————————————————
    Royals, White sox and Reds have all the outfielders they can handle. Padres have very little that NYY needs unless they trade Scott Hairston straight up for him.

  71. Chip January 28th, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    M –

    That’s where I got the scenario from. And the Yankees have two other guys on the 40 man roster now in Hoffmann and Golson who are both very good defensive players and have outstanding speed. In other words, Cashman has other guys who can be used as pinch runners/defensive replacements.

    I don’t know what Gardner would bring back, certainly not much, but maybe a live arm

  72. vin January 28th, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    Joel Sherman has been killing it this offseason.

  73. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day January 28th, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    I just find it sad that it’s going to be portrayed by fans and the media as a sad parting of the ways, that the Yankees are going to regret not signing Damon. IMO, they did the best they could, but the media doesn’t seem interested in that story. They’re only interested in berating the WS for not wildly spending $$$…..the same thing these losers criticize the Yankees sfor.

  74. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day January 28th, 2010 at 1:30 pm

    The Cards were idiots, completely bidding against themselves for Holliday’s services.

    Sherman is no great shakes and is no different than any other mediot, killing the Yankees for not bending over for Damon.

  75. Chip January 28th, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    DaSaint –

    I wouldn’t say that Ace is a sure thing for the pen. I think that he and Gardner are prime targets to be traded this spring.

    Just like I was saying they have a lot of guys who could fill Gardner’s role; with Mitre and Gaudin as long relievers and Marte, Robertson, and either Joba or Hughes setting up Mo, they could move Aceves while his value is as high as it is.

  76. m January 28th, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    Chip,

    lol. I’ll hold out hope for Gardner developing into a very good center fielder. Put that speed to good use.

    O/T, but isn’t there some kind of irony in michael douglas’s son going away for 10 years on drug Traffic-king charges?

  77. MichaelPTRS January 28th, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    m January 28th, 2010 at 1:18 pm

    Maybe Chip is right. :)”

    Chip is always right.

    That is why he is “The Pack Leader”- Inside Joke ;-)

  78. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    Chip,

    The Yankees didn’t acquire Hoffman and Golston to trade Brett Gardner. That’s no likely scenario.

    Hoffman is a Rule 5 guy who, if he can’t make the roster, has to be returned to the Dodgers. If the Yankees sign Marcus Thames to a minor league deal, it limits Hoffman’s chances to stick on the roster.

    Golston is AAA filler and nothing more.

    They aren’t trading Gardner now. They could have during the Winter Meetings if they wanted to.

    He is either going to be the starting LF or CF and given every opportunity to play. If he can’t hack it, the Yankees will go in a different direction.

    Gardner has a lot of people in the organization who believe he can be a decent ML player. Especially in a low pressure role, hitting 9th in this lineup.

    It remains to be seen if that’s the case. He’s going to be given his shot to prove himself.

  79. G. Love January 28th, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    SJ,

    Thanks for the insight. I’m glad there was no grudge and they tried to get Damon to come back. Just didn’t work out.

    It just seemed odd to me since Damon was a great fit for one year but I could see how the 2nd year was a bit scary and the Yankees wanted it as close to their terms as possible.

    I just thought a deal would get done as Jorge was able to get one more year guaranteed from the Yankees than they wanted to give him, although he was using the Mets and Omar as leverage to get that year.

    Damon never had that kind of leverage.

  80. Pat M. January 28th, 2010 at 1:33 pm

    Billy Beane will sign Johnny Damon, and when the A’s fall off the AL West pace, he’ll spin off both Sheets and Damon for young players…..That’s what Billy Beane does……Randy Winn will surprise many here with his play…..One of the advantages of living on the West Coast, besides the climate and the eye candy, is that we get to see a doubleheader everynight……Winn is no Tony Womack….

  81. m January 28th, 2010 at 1:34 pm

    Betsy,

    I think vin meant that Sherman’s gotten it right on the most part.

    TKO with Heyman all bloodied up. ;)

    Chip,

    Same for Aceves. Why do you think the Yankees are going to make a trade for the sake of making a trade? Why restock the farm by giving up useful players?

  82. DaSaint007 January 28th, 2010 at 1:34 pm

    Yankees have lots of ML-ready pieces that most likely can be packaged for trades this year or next.

    1B/DH: Miranda
    SP: Gaudin, Mitre, McAllister, Kontos, Hirsch
    RP: Albaladejo, De La Rosa, Logan, Ring
    IF: Pena, Russo, Nunez, Corona
    OF: Curtis, Golson

    And don’t think that some veterans like Swisher aren’t possible too.

  83. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 1:35 pm

    Chip,

    Neither guy is a “prime trade target”. Only in your mind they are.

    Aceves is one of the more valuable pieces among pitchers on the staff because of his versatility. Those guys, like Ramiro Mendoza, have more value to the Yankees than trading value.

    Aceves is a better pitcher than Mitre and Gaudin. He’s also cheaper than both. He isn’t getting traded.

    Gardner, for reasons outlined above, isn’t getting dealt. At least not going into ST.

  84. upstate kate January 28th, 2010 at 1:38 pm

    I think Cash and the Yankees did the best they could to field another championship team for 2010.

    That being said, there are players I will miss. I will, of course, cheer for the team, and the replacement players. That is just baseball life.

    I don’t know why some posters think it is wrong to miss players that are leaving. I miss friends when they move away. I miss co-workers when they leave. why is it different to miss players you have cheered on?

  85. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes January 28th, 2010 at 1:38 pm

    I know Keith Law isn’t the be all, end all of scouts by any stretch of the imagination, but is anyone else shocked that only 2 Yankees made his Top 100? Montero and Banuelos.

  86. Chip January 28th, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    SJ -

    Yes, Aceves is cheaper than Gaudin and Mitre, but since Gaudin and Mitre are being paid by the Yankees it means they can (if they so choose) deal Aceves to a team that has a greater need for him than the Yankees.

    As for Gardner, I said before, I think he’ll be given every shot to win the starting LF spot, but he’s going to have to win it, just like he had to win it from Melky last year.

    And with Hoffmann – I know what the rules for a Rule V guy are. I think his presence is part of the reason why the Yankees might trade Gardner if he doesn’t win the starting job. Anyone who has been paying attention the last couple of years knows that the Yankees didn’t consider either Gardner or Melky long term solutions for the OF. Hoffmann’s younger and was specifically targeted by the Yankees for a reason. That’s why I think that if Winn takes the starting LF spot and they still sign a RH bat to a minor league deal Gardner becomes tradeable (or sent to AAA).

    In other words, in my opinion, barring a terrible spring training I think Jaime Hoffmann has a spot on the roster sewn up.

  87. Nick in SF in Vallejo January 28th, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    I’m with you, Pat M, I think Randy Winn will more than exceed people’s expectations. Very professional player.
    I have high hopes for Gardner too. Late innings with a Grandy/Gardy/Winny (sorry) outfield, lock it down!

  88. Chip January 28th, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    Phucker -

    Always good to see an old friend.

  89. m January 28th, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    New game:

    GTNYTBT

  90. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes January 28th, 2010 at 1:41 pm

    Pat M.,

    I agree with you on the Oakland front completely.

    It will be the same gig as with Holliday with Sheets.

    With that, Sheets could be nasty in Oakland’ park…definitely pitcher friendly, so a smart move on his part as well.

    Damon…not sure if he’ll end up in Oakland, but any team he goes to at this point will likely not be a contender.

  91. Wave Your Hat January 28th, 2010 at 1:43 pm

    “The offer of 2/14 was a legitimate offer. It was not a confusing text message or anything of the sort.

    If Johnny took the offer, they would have signed him.”

    That’s not at all clear from anything I’ve read. And there’s no facts out there I’m aware of that is inconsistent with Boras saying the 2/14 offer was contingent on NJ.

  92. Erica - always OPPC - Is done with Brian Cashman! January 28th, 2010 at 1:44 pm

    m
    January 28th, 2010 at 1:41 pm
    New game:

    GTNYTBT

    ********************

    Guess the Next Yankee to be Traded????????

  93. Chip January 28th, 2010 at 1:45 pm

    SJ –

    as for Aceves’s versatility – I don’t disagree with you. But if the Yankees need a spot starter they have Gaudin and Mitre. If they need someone at the end of a game they have Hughes or Joba along with Robertson and Marte…

    That makes Aceves’s versatility unnecessary and Cashman is a sharp enough guy to know that some of the lower payroll clubs around (Cleveland, KC, Pitt) could use Aceves as a back of the rotation starter – something he’ll never be in New York.

  94. m January 28th, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    Erica,

    lol. Good job.

    Chip,

    You’re logic is good, except guys like Gardner and Aceves are under team control for years at very low cost. That combined with their ability to contribute adds to their value to the Yankees.

  95. Frank January 28th, 2010 at 1:48 pm

    “I know Keith Law isn’t the be all, end all of scouts by any stretch of the imagination, but is anyone else shocked that only 2 Yankees made his Top 100? Montero and Banuelos.”

    Based on his personal ranking of minor league systems yesterday, it’s a little hard to be shocked.

  96. Frank January 28th, 2010 at 1:51 pm

    Speaking of Law’s Top 100, SJ, he had your nephew at #82, referring to him as one who is highly likely to be an everyday MLB catcher who may even sprinkle an all star appearance or two on his resume.

    Not bad.

  97. DaSaint007 January 28th, 2010 at 1:51 pm

    The Yankees don’t have many future areas of “need”.

    1B, 2B, SS, and 3B are locked up. Period. Say what you will about Jeter’s future.

    Granderson is set in the OF, whether it be in LF or CF. That leaves 2 OF positions for future consideration.

    C is locked up by Posada for 1 more season. After 2010 we can consider Mauer, or Posada w/backup, or Montero, but most likely Montero won’t be ready until 2011. If Mauer is signed, Montero becomes a DH or a very tradable commodity.

    2 of the 5 in the starting rotation are set for at least 4 more years: CC and AJ. That leaves 3 potential openings. With the price of FA starters, it’s likely that only 1 of those 3 spots will go to a FA pickup in 2010 (Lee, particularly since he’s a lefty). The other 2 will be affordable youngsters (Hughes, Joba, etc.) or veterans on 1 year deals (Pettitte?).

    The bullpen is always in flux, but it’s been proven that you don’t spend mega-bucks for more than 2 bullpen arms at a time. One of those will be Rivera. The other will most likely be a situational lefty (currently Marte). That leaves 5 slots for affordable veterans or talented kids.

    So, IMO, all the ‘excess’ talent the team has will be used either for 1 of the 2 OF positions, or for bullpen arms. Despite them becoming Free Agents, I could see a trade for Crawford or Werth prior to the trade deadline, should their respective teams fall out of contention (unlikely). Or a trade for a strong bullpen arm (Street, Nathan?). Time will tell.

  98. Chip January 28th, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    M -

    Very true, Gardner and Ace are under team control for a while, but that would also increase their value to other teams.

    While Aceves and Gardner could be the 24th and 25th men on the Yankee roster, to a team in need of a back of the rotation starter and a starting OF they could represent low cost alternatives in exchange for a couple of B level prospects (in other words you get a minor league version of Aceves or Gardner)

    I’m not saying either guy will be traded tomorrow, but if Brett fails to win the LF spot and if Mitre and Gaudin look solid in spring training, then it makes Gardner and Aceves expendable.

  99. RayVT January 28th, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    sierchio
    January 28th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
    Remember last Spring Training when Gardner had the most HR’s on the Yankees??? Yeah… S.T. numbers don’t mean anything…

    Yeah! I was there and the pitchers he was hitting them against were A, AA & AAA pitchers as the WBC had most of the real SP. Also, the balls carried really well to RF in Tampa. He isn’t an everyday OF IMO.

  100. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day January 28th, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    Montero was ranked, get this, 19th ONLY during MLB’s show on top 50 prospects. That makes Keith Law seem reasonable. I detest Law, so nothing he says surprises me.

    M, yeah – I knew what he meant, but I’m still tired of the mediots blaming the Yankees.

  101. The Phranchise January 28th, 2010 at 1:52 pm

    I am actually more psyched about the Towers signing than landing Winn. Another baseball guy, well regarded in the league. Cashman has quietly started to build a great core of baseball minds and closed his inner circle. Not much information leaks these days. They make baseball decisions. Never understood why such a great organization was being run by so many non-baseball people.

    Chad posted a quote the other day about Cashman, obviously agitated, about agents not believeing thier own b.s. and if they think he is stupid. This had to be him venting about the Boras talks. The good thing about not giving into Boras on this deal too is it called his bluff for a free agent signing next year. He won’t be able to play the same hand. You always have to deal with him, but Cashman plays the game quite well. He landed Arod. He got Tex. Theo is the one who has been played more than anyone. JD Drew. Dice K. etc. Johnny leaving to the Yankees.

  102. Nick in SF in Vallejo January 28th, 2010 at 1:53 pm

    I like the way you’re thinking, Chip. These worse, more expensive players make the better, cheaper ones expendable. Trade ‘em!

    :roll:

  103. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 1:54 pm

    Sure there are facts in dispute. Damon himself for one. He admitted the offer to Kepner, Klapisch and Madden. Also, to just about every beat writer and columnist in NY.

    Jon Heyman, a Boras shill, reported it ad nauseum on the MLB Network. There wasn’t ANY mention of any “contingency” with the offer and Heyman gets his info direct from Scott Boras.

    You just choose to believe differently.

    It wasn’t “contingent” on Nick Johnson. It was, “if you don’t take it, we will move onto Nick Johnson”, because they didn’t want to lose Johnson to the Giants while Boras jerked them around.

    Its very simple. Brian Cashman didn’t want to lose the option he wanted to replace Damon if Johnny said no to their offer. The time was running out and he wasn’t going to play that game.

    That’s why they ended talking to Damon yesterday. Randy Winn was ready to sign with the Nats and Cash didn’t want to lose him while Boras was still spinning his “mystery team” tales and sticking to his guns on a 2/20 deal.

    As a GM, you can’t let the player dictate the pace of the negotiation. Especially with Scott Boras. That’s how Scott wins a lot of his battles.

    GM’s wait too long, options dry up, and you are only left with Scott’s client to sign…..at a premium.

    Cashman chose not to play that game.

    Johnny should have taken the offer. If he said “yes”, he would be getting ready for ST with the Yankees right now.

  104. The Phranchise January 28th, 2010 at 1:55 pm

    Top Prospects lists are really a joke anyway. Look back on the old ones and see how many top guys never make it. Where was the stud Lars Anderson ranked last year? Where is he now? They also have this love fest for Westmoreland and Kelly, two guys in the low minor leagues with a ton left to prove and one off an injury. There is a bias there for sure. On top of that as well, it’s the other guys around the league you don’t pay attention to on other teams that I find most interesting. Tommy Hanson was on there last year but I think mid pack and that kid was a stud. Homer Bailey was ranked the number one pitcher for ever and how’s that working out?

  105. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day January 28th, 2010 at 1:55 pm

    http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/.....Mi0QBEdGhM

  106. Wave Your Hat January 28th, 2010 at 1:57 pm

    SJ44-

    You are just giving me the Yankee version of things, with a conclusion or two added. I’ve read the Yankee version. Maybe it’s true, I don’t know.

    The Boras version of things is consistent as well. Maybe it’s true, I don’t know.

    I don’t “choose” to believe anything. You evidently have, which is fine. As I said, I am dubious that Cashman ever wanted to sign Damon.

  107. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 1:58 pm

    Aceves is a better pitcher than both Mitre and Gaudin. Why would the Yankees trade him?

    He fills the “Mendoza Role” on the team already. An important role on this team.

    He isn’t the 24th guy on the roster. He’s one of more durable pitchers on the staff.

    Nor is Gardner the 25th man on the roster. Right now, he’s the starting LF or CF.

    There isn’t a Rule 5 guy in baseball, especially one taken buy a team like the Yankees, who has a roster spot “sewn up” on January 28.

    If they sign another RH hitting OF, and that guy can swing the bat, the chances of Hoffman making the team reduces dramatically.

  108. vinny-b January 28th, 2010 at 2:00 pm

    finished checkin the piece by Doug Waage. A little Bill James knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

    thanks but no thanks.

    Granderson is an everyday player. period

  109. vin January 28th, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    Betsy,
    I mentioned Sherman “killing it” because he seems to have had a pretty strong offseason – in terms of getting scoops and disseminating information. I try not to take offense to what newspaper reporters say – they’re all just looking for attention anyway.

    Sherman was on top of the Granderson deal, as well as another (Johnson maybe?). He unequivocally stated in the linked article that the Yankees LF/4th OF choice was down between Reed Johnson and Winn. Also in the article he mentioned that the Yanks expect to sign a RH hitting OFer to a minor league deal (Baldelli, Thames, Gomes are being considered).

    From my perspective, he seems to have pretty good sources with the Yanks. You don’t get that kind of information by casually phonging Cashman and asking him what he’s got planned.

  110. Bronx Jeers January 28th, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    True Nick,

    If we see Winn in place of Swish or in whatever situation we see the “Trio of Speed” out there together?

    Well that’s about the best defensive alignment in the OF that we’ve seen on the Yanks in a very long time.

  111. Jim Mason January 28th, 2010 at 2:02 pm

    This is 100% on Damon. If he wanted to stay, he would have been here. He will now try to blame Boras, the way A-Rod did with the opt-out. But it comes down to the player. Damon rpoved he was a mercenary when he left Red Sox for their hated rival fo more money.

    Another thing no one is talking about with Damon and Matsui – neither was willing to accept a smaller role. Matsui is delusional enough to think he an play the outfield. So, both had surprisingly good years and wanted to be paid for it. The Yankees – wisely, in my opinion – figured the odds of either repeating their 2009 were not good.

    See ya.

  112. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 2:03 pm

    Wave,

    I’m giving you what I know. Since I know Damon and some of the people involved in his negotiation from Scott’s side and the Yankees side, I’m pretty comfortable with knowing how it went down.

    Until yesterday, nobody from Scott Boras’ Office, or his friends in the media, talked about any “contingency offer”.

    Its because one never existed. It was spin.

    The scenarios played out as they played out. If you choose to believe otherwise, fine by me.

  113. DaSaint007 January 28th, 2010 at 2:05 pm

    SJ hit it on the head.

    Aceves is today’s Ramiro Mendoza. Spot starter, long reliever. He’s a wiley pitcher who succeeds with his pitching smarts in addition to his talents. Similar to Greg Maddox in that respect.

    I want Gardner to succeed, but not sure he will. I do think that he’ll be given the opportunity, as in my mind, he’s the backup plan to getting Carl Crawford. Not that Crawford will play CF, no he’d be in LF, but if so, then Granderson would be in CF, and Gardner would be a 4th OF.

    If Garnder does well however (in the field and with the bat), then there may be no need to pursue Crawford (saving millions), and Granderson would remain in LF. Only RF would be a question: stick w/Swisher or upgrade to Werth (spending millions)? Point is, Garnder’s not likely to be traded at this point.

  114. vinny-b January 28th, 2010 at 2:07 pm

    “Hoffmann has very little margin for failure, before he’s shipped back to the Dodgers”
    ——————————————————

    from what i get, the Dodgers will be very happy to get him back

  115. Chip January 28th, 2010 at 2:07 pm

    Just to throw out a potential Aceves deal – the Marlins are said to be in the hunt for relief help and not thrilled with the free agent market (per MLBTR)

    So how about Aceves to the Marlins for Ramon Benjamin – a 22 year old Low A LHP with lots of stuff but needs seasoning.

    That’s the kind of trade I’m talking about.

  116. Jim Mason January 28th, 2010 at 2:08 pm

    “I mentioned Sherman “killing it” because he seems to have had a pretty strong offseason”

    He also had CC signing first last year and his book on the building of the 96 Yankees is excellent must-read, though I’m sure most here would be repulsed by his description of Rivera’s meteoric rise from non-prospect to best in baseball.

  117. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 2:09 pm

    Chip,

    Why are the Yankees trading one of their more versatile arms for a Low A ball LH? That deal makes no sense from the Yankees perspective. Zero.

    If they put Alfredo Aceves on the market he would get more than a Low A ball arm.

    The Yankees aren’t in the business of giving arms away. Especially valuable guys.

    The guy went 10-1 on a World Championship team last year and you want to trade him for fodder. Amazing.

  118. Jim Mason January 28th, 2010 at 2:10 pm

    “Its because one never existed. It was spin.”

    Exactly. Borass started the offseason looking for a THREE year offer, which no team considered

  119. Wave Your Hat January 28th, 2010 at 2:11 pm

    SJ44-

    I believe you think you know what you think you know. Whether you do in fact know what you think you know is another story. You choose to believe what you want, and I’ll continue to be dubious until I have more information.

    For instance, if Cashman was firm on that 2/14 offer, he couldn’t have given that AND signed Javy AND stayed under this alleged budget cap, could he? I mean, Javy + NJ cost less than Javy plus Johnny at $7MM, right? And Cashman has insisted that the budget cap was real, right? And (and this is a conclusion of course) I think Cashman wanted Javy all along.

  120. Carl January 28th, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    Mkay is going off lol

  121. Chip January 28th, 2010 at 2:14 pm

    SJ -

    The reason they would trade him is because they don’t need a Ramiro Mendoza on this team.

    Look at it this way – the rotation is CC, AJ, Andy, Javy, Hughes

    the 7th and 8th innings are split up by:
    Joba, Robertson, Marte

    The long relievers are: Gaudin, Mitre, Aceves.

    Is Aceves better than Gaudin and Mitre – possibly, but the difference is very small.

    In essence, for Aceves’s “Ramiro Mendoza qualities” to come to play for the Yankees the following things would have to happen:

    Injuries to two or more starters
    Injuries or complete ineffectiveness of two or more of the following: Marte, Robertson, Joba, Rivera

  122. Jim January 28th, 2010 at 2:14 pm

    I have a questions for anyone who remembers. It seems a lot of people are treating Gardner like he lost the CF job to Melky due to his playing record. I thought he got hurt and, during his DL assignment, Melky earned his way back into Girardi’s graces. I could be recalling this incorrectly–I honestly do not remember (and can’t find anything in print to clarify it for me…).

    Regardless, I bring this up to state that we still do not know what Gardner represents as a full time player. We will NEVER know until he gets that shot! There are players all over the league that “get their shots” out of ST. Sure, they are on a short leash, and they can easily play themselves out of the job, but they, at least, get to try. Gardner (if I recall correctly) got his shot and got hurt. His numbers were not bad before that happened. We should, at least, give him the chance to impress in ST–he might show himself to be a better option the Winn or any of the other characters on the roster.

  123. lets go yankees January 28th, 2010 at 2:14 pm

    “For instance, if Cashman was firm on that 2/14 offer, he couldn’t have given that AND signed Javy AND stayed under this alleged budget cap, could he? I mean, Javy + NJ cost less than Javy plus Johnny at $7MM, right? And Cashman has insisted that the budget cap was real, right? And (and this is a conclusion of course) I think Cashman wanted Javy all along.”

    ———————————-

    Javy (8 million) + Damon (7 million)= 15 million

    Javy (8 million) + NJ (5.5 million) + Winn (2 million)= 15.5 million

  124. steveoh January 28th, 2010 at 2:15 pm

    People sure are making a lot of assumptions about Gardner based on only 284 plate appearances, less than half a season of full time play.

    I do not think he is the de facto starting LF.

    Now, if the Yankees decide that Granderson is just average in CF, then Winn is out, because Gardner is a far better CF and Granderson is a better hitter.

  125. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2010 at 2:16 pm

    Maybe the Yankees can trade Aceves to Pittsburgh for Ryan Church.

  126. Wave Your Hat January 28th, 2010 at 2:17 pm

    let’s go yanks-

    That seems right. I take back the example.

  127. vinny-b January 28th, 2010 at 2:18 pm

    “Mkay is going off lol”
    ————————————–

    don’t have it on. However, where i lose respect for Michael Kay is when he uses his position/power to take shots at individuals. Following the Yankees WS victory he brought Mike Mussina’s name completely out of the blue and make very mean statements regarding him, and how he was happy Mussina wasn’t on the 2009 team to get a ring, followed by a long kissing sound Kay made.

    very unprofessional.

  128. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2010 at 2:18 pm

    Chip
    January 28th, 2010 at 2:14 pm
    SJ -

    The reason they would trade him is because they don’t need a Ramiro Mendoza on this team.

    Look at it this way – the rotation is CC, AJ, Andy, Javy, Hughes

    the 7th and 8th innings are split up by:
    Joba, Robertson, Marte

    ————————————————————

    Really? How did the first month of 2009 work out. They certainly didn’t need two long relievers then, did they?

  129. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    Wave,

    LOL.. You are too funny.

    I think 30 years in the sports business, owning 6 minor league teams, as well as knowing a bunch of players and agents personally, gives me more than “thinking” I know something.

    If I know it, I say it. If I don’t, I don’t. Its a pretty simple policy.

    If Cashman didn’t want Damon, he wouldn’t have extended the offer. What he didn’t want was to left without a chair (except for Damon) when the musical chairs stopped with the OF/DH free agents.

    He knew that would mean the pressure would be on to sign Damon at Boras’ price and not the price the Yankees were comfortable paying.

    Nick Johnson took less money to come to NY than to go to the Giants. For that deal to happen however, Cashman had to move on that day. Similar to what happened with Matsui and the Angels. Offers were not going to be kept on the table forever by teams.

    Additionally, if the Yankees didn’t want Damon, they wouldn’t be calling Hal Steinbrenner on his honeymoon to talk to him and have the entire front office, Jeter, Girardi, Arod, and CC talk to him. They would just move on.

    Nobody puts on that kind of show for a guy they don’t want.

    They just were not going to pay him what Scott wanted to pay him.

    Like I said, if you choose to believe otherwise, fine by me.

  130. Wave Your Hat January 28th, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    let’s go Yanks-

    Although that math means the Yanks would be short 2 outfielders, and still looking for a Johnson/Gomes/Thames kind of guy. On second thought my example still stands, I think.

  131. Bret the Hitman January 28th, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    I like the idea of Girardi starting Gardner against weaker pitchers and righties. If the Yankees can boost up his average they can sell high on him before next season. Once Crawford is here, Gardner is unnecessary. They could even trade Gardner at this year’s deadline if they need bullpen help.

    Gardner needs a platoon.

  132. lets go yankees January 28th, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    Gaudin is a free agent after this season. Mitre is well Mitre and has some potential, but has yet to prove anything on the Yankees. Aceves on the other hand has proven to be very, very effective in his role and is under team control for the next 5 years.

    Aceves may been expendable this season (which I do not believe, but there is certainly an argument to be made), but trading him now for some junk in the minor leagues would be extremely short-sighted.

  133. vinny-b January 28th, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    “People sure are making a lot of assumptions about Gardner based on only 284 plate appearances, less than half a season of full time play”
    ———————————————–

    is this new?

  134. Chip January 28th, 2010 at 2:20 pm

    The guy went 10-1 on a World Championship team last year and you want to trade him for fodder.

    Alfredo Aceves in 2010 – 10 wins, 3.54 ERA, 69 K in 85 IP
    Aaron Small in 2005 – 10 wins, 3.20 ERA, 37 K in 76 IP

    Two journeymen who had very good seasons. Let’s not make more of it then it was.

  135. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 2:21 pm

    Chip,

    You always need a flexible guy who can both start and relieve on your team.

    Just look at the last 2 years as proof of that with the Yankees.

  136. Nick in SF in Vallejo January 28th, 2010 at 2:21 pm

    Wave, you’re getting pretty existential. What is “truth”, after all?

    I think you’re right that the Yanks didn’t place a HIGH value on bringing Damon back, and the value went way down after they signed a DH.

  137. murphydog January 28th, 2010 at 2:22 pm

    SJ:

    You can lead a horse to water…

  138. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 2:23 pm

    Chip,

    You really want to compare the two? One guy is about 5 years younger, and with better stuff, than the other.

    Just because you want to give him away for another guy who can’t play doesn’t make a logical deal.

  139. steveoh January 28th, 2010 at 2:23 pm

    vinny-b January 28th, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    “People sure are making a lot of assumptions about Gardner based on only 284 plate appearances, less than half a season of full time play”
    ———————————————–

    is this new?

    I don’t know. I’m not here all day, every day like some people. I do have other interests…

  140. by the numbers ....... January 28th, 2010 at 2:24 pm

    Who did the better deal, Cashman or Epstein ?

    Mike Cameron … 15 years service with 1610 hits in 6440 at bats and 1787 stikeouts.
    Age is 37 (1/8/73) with a 2 year contract of $15.5M
    - – - – - – - – - – - -

    Randy Winn … 12 years of service with 1710 hits in 5981 at bats and 973 strikeouts.
    Age is 35 (6/9/74) with a 1 year contract of $2M

    - – - – - – - – - – - -
    Consider both as equal with outfield defense.

  141. tampayank January 28th, 2010 at 2:24 pm

    Interesting 2010 projections from Baseball Prospectus for the numbers geeks:

    http://baseballprospectus.com/fantasy/dc/

  142. Carl January 28th, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    vinny-b

    Michael Kay lets it known he doesn’t like Moose and Joe Torre. I really want to know why.

  143. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    murph,

    Very true! LOL.

  144. lets go yankees January 28th, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    “Although that math means the Yanks would be short 2 outfielders, and still looking for a Johnson/Gomes/Thames kind of guy. On second thought my example still stands, I think.”

    —————————-

    They would still be looking for a Gomes/Thames/Baldelli type, but they are doing that right now, because those guys would get mL deals and would basically have no affect on the budget. Damon would also fill the role as one of the backup OF.

    Or alternatively, if Gardner did not work out in LF, they could have shifted Damon out there and called Miranda up to DH. So, Miranda would in essence fill Winn’s role on the team.

    I am sure there are other ways they could fill out the roster and stay under the budget, but I am confident they could have fit Damon and Vazquez.

  145. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2010 at 2:26 pm

    murphydog
    January 28th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
    SJ:

    You can lead a horse to water…

    ————————————————————

    But, you can’t make him eat….or wipe his azs.

  146. David in Cal January 28th, 2010 at 2:27 pm

    I don’t think Gardner needs a platoon partner. If he hits as well as I hope he can, he should play every day. But, if his hitting is no better than last year, he should be replaced as a starter no matter who’s pitching.

    Granderson might need to be platooned. I have great respect for Kevin Long, but it’s not like Granderson hasn’t been trying to hit leftie pitching. I sure he’s been working very yard with various batting coaches on this weakness. Maybe Long can work a dramatic improvement, but maybe not. It seems strange, but we might see a team with Garder as regular CF and Granderson merely a platoon player in LF

  147. RayVT January 28th, 2010 at 2:28 pm

    Wave Your Hat
    January 28th, 2010 at 2:11 pm

    SJ is a straight shooter. He knows what he knows!! LOL! Don’t we all, know what we know.

    I have been online here mostly as a reader for the better part of 4 years. When SJ speaks he is usually spot on. I enjoy opposing views only to see SJ give more info. I enjoy the Blog 7 use to spend time reading the SWB blog as well.

    I am a Yankee fan 1st and foremost! I am a player fan 2nd. Yes I cringed when Yanks let Reggie go years ago!! (And others as well!)

  148. Wave Your Hat January 28th, 2010 at 2:29 pm

    SJ44-

    LOL – 30 years in the sports business and you spend 20 lines trying to convince some guy you don’t even know your “inside” knowledge is correct on this? Why is it so important to you that I am dubious Cashman ever wanted Damon? I was dubious when you insisted the Yanks budget allowed for Halladay, I was dubious when you insisted the Yanks weren’t getting Tex. I’m dubious now, big deal.

    Look, you think what you think, fine by me, now go post another 20 lines telling me how wrong I am again.

    I don’t like the Winn deal, but it’s done and I’m moving on.

  149. Bret the Hitman January 28th, 2010 at 2:29 pm

    They never offered 2 years to Damon.

    No way.

    That was bulpucky from Boras.

  150. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 2:30 pm

    Kay vs. Torre….

    After an early season game in 1996, Torre went up to Kay, in front of all the players, in the locker room, and tore into him for something he said on the radio about the team.

    He kept yelling, “I know who you are and I know you are a Buck (Showalter, one of Kay’s good friends) love and I know your agenda”.

    Kay always believed Torre did it to show the players he wasn’t going to take anything from anybody. Kay took it personally and he and Torre barely throughout the time Torre was here.

    Kay vs. Mussina. Moose didn’t like some of the comments Kay said about him on a television broadcast and told him so. He did it seperately from the rest of the team.

    Kay didn’t like it, made some comments about Moose that got back to Moose, and they never spoke a word to each other (not even a hello) throughout Moose’s career in NY.

  151. vinny-b January 28th, 2010 at 2:30 pm

    “Michael Kay lets it known he doesn’t like Moose and Joe Torre. I really want to know why”
    —————————————————–

    prolly because Mussina didn’t take a liking to Michael Kay. Kay admitted this.

    sometimes Michael Kay acts like a woman. Maybe it is why Kim Jones doesn’t like him : )

  152. Jim Mason January 28th, 2010 at 2:30 pm

    “Michael Kay lets it known he doesn’t like Moose and Joe Torre. I really want to know why.”

    Maybe because Moose hated the media most of his career until the last few when he realized he is borderline on Hall of Fame. So he became buddies all of a sudden with Pete Abe, Feinsand, etc. Guys who just got or would soon get HOF votes. Kay, who has been around Yanks as writer, radio and TV for years, knows a phony when he sees one.

  153. m January 28th, 2010 at 2:30 pm

    azs

    ==========

    Hey take your sabermetric acronyms outta here!

  154. Chip January 28th, 2010 at 2:31 pm

    You always need a flexible guy who can both start and relieve on your team.

    I agree – but the Yankees potentially will have four guys on the roster who can do that:

    Gaudin
    Mitre
    Aceves
    and, depending on which one of them is the 5th starter Hughes or Joba

    How many do you need? And yes, I agree that Aceves is probably better than Gaudin and Mitre, but the fact is that the Yankees are paying Gaudin and Mitre and neither of them are going anywhere…so it’s a moot point.

    They also have Ivan Nova and Zach McAllister sitting at AAA.

    As for Aceves being all that different then Small, don’t forget that both guys were picked up off the scrap heap – Aceves was in the Mexican League until last year because no one wanted him.

    As for the Marlin prospect I mentioned, not being able to play, I find it very difficult to believe that you have any logical reason to back that up – for what it’s worth, here is what John Sickles says about Ramon Benjamin ranked 18th out of top 20 Marlin prospects:

    18) Ramon Benjamin, LHP: NY-P pitcher with plus stuff but command issues.

    Hey, I don’t know that he can play, but I’m not arrogant to say so one way or the other for certain.

  155. Jim Mason January 28th, 2010 at 2:32 pm

    One thing about Boras – he is ALWAYS lying

  156. vinny-b January 28th, 2010 at 2:33 pm

    “I don’t think Gardner needs a platoon partner. Granderson might need to be platooned.”
    ————————————————

    much like alchohol or drugs, this is what happens when sabametrics are abused

  157. NYYROC January 28th, 2010 at 2:33 pm

    Torre ripped M.Kay in a postgame presser, called him Rona Barrett in front of others. Moose just not friendly or outgoing enough for M. Kay.

  158. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 2:33 pm

    Wave,

    You want to challenge my authenticity, something numerous people on here have vouched for me over the years, and you get upset when I call you on it? LOL

    Really, grow up. If you are going to challenge someone’s take on something, be prepared for give and take.

    Go back and read every post I’ve made on the Damon subject. There isn’t any misinformation in it.

    Like I said, you can believe what you want. However, if you are going to challenge someone, don’t be shocked if they call you on it.

    This has nothing to do with Randy Winn.

  159. Wave Your Hat January 28th, 2010 at 2:33 pm

    GB7, I think there was a typo in your last comment.

  160. Chip January 28th, 2010 at 2:34 pm

    SJ -

    You’re wrong about Kay vs. Torre – at least about where it started from.

    Torre had no problem with Kay until Kay went to YES because he (Torre) felt that the Yankee front office (George and Randy Levine) angry with the credit Torre was getting had instructed Kay to be hypercritical of Joe on the air, and Kay went along.

  161. lets go yankees January 28th, 2010 at 2:34 pm

    What motivation would the Yankees have to move Aceves? He is extremely cheap for 5 more years. The Yankees are not just thinking about next year Chip. If they just trade him for the sake of it or because they have more depth then usual this season, they are also trading away 4 additional years of cheap flexibility. It makes no sense to trade Aceves, especially since they would get nothing in return.

  162. Jim Mason January 28th, 2010 at 2:34 pm

    Owning a minor league team does not mean you have any skill at evaluating players. Minor league owners sell tickets and popcorn. they make no player personnel moves. The GM of a minor league team is in charge of selling billboards in the outfield.

  163. vin January 28th, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    Imagine what we’d be hearing if this Damon / Yankees divorce had happened with the Red Sox?

    Cash usually likes to keep his negotiations private, as opposed to Theo and his crew. Also, Cash won’t disparage a player to the media the way they do in Boston.

  164. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    I was dubious when you insisted the Yanks weren’t getting Tex. I’m dubious now, big deal.

    ————————————————————

    Hey!!! I know who you are, now. You’re George Dubious Bush.

  165. Pat M. January 28th, 2010 at 2:36 pm

    RayVT….Welcome to pre-spring training…..Murphydog, how you doin ?? SJ just lays it out there, you can take it or leave it….But when one elects to get into a pissing match with him, I just sit back and enjoy the show….I’ve said this many times, he views things from the owners box…CB looks at the game from a GM point of view…..Some of us are such gtunts in the dugout…

  166. lets go yankees January 28th, 2010 at 2:36 pm

    “They never offered 2 years to Damon.
    No way.
    That was bulpucky from Boras.”

    ————————-

    Bret, you have really spent a lot of time this offseason trying to debunk something that everyone knows happened.

    Even Damon himself confirmed the offer.

    What is your deal with this subject? Is there some mass conspiracy between Boras, Cash, and Damon you are trying to uncover?

  167. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    Wave Your Hat
    January 28th, 2010 at 2:33 pm
    GB7, I think there was a typo in your last comment.

    ————————————————————

    I couldn’t get the word through the filters, but, I got my point through.

  168. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    Chip,

    Alfredo Aceves is making 1/7th of the combined salaries of Gaudin and Mitre and is better than both of them.

    To trade him for a Single A pitcher, and being the 18th ranked prospect in the Marlins system is no great shakes, is not a good deal for the Yankees.

  169. Frank January 28th, 2010 at 2:37 pm

    “Additionally, if the Yankees didn’t want Damon, they wouldn’t be calling Hal Steinbrenner on his honeymoon to talk to him and have the entire front office, Jeter, Girardi, Arod, and CC talk to him.”

    Hard to imagine why three guys making $20M plus saying “Dude, c’mon back at a 50% paycut.” didn’t work.

  170. Wave Your Hat January 28th, 2010 at 2:38 pm

    SJ44-

    LOL, you called me on nothing. You posted some statements, which may or may not be evidence of your point. I’ve never been shy of calling you on things – you know it and you know I’ve been right quite often, too.

    On this one, I didn’t say you were wrong. I said I wasn’t convinced your conclusions were correct. There’s a difference, now do some growing up yourself.

  171. Carl January 28th, 2010 at 2:38 pm

    Thanks for the Kay/Moose/Torre info. The way Kay talks about it, he makes it seems like it is a lot worse.

    lol at Mkay being a Diva.

  172. Jim Mason January 28th, 2010 at 2:40 pm

    If the Yankees wanted Damon, he’d be here. Can’t blame him for not wanting a paycut, can’t blame the Yankees for trying. Problem for Johnny is not too many takers out there.

  173. Chip January 28th, 2010 at 2:40 pm

    Let’s Go Yankees –

    I just see Aceves as being expendable if the Yankees decided to move him

    For this year to fill his role they’re set with both long relievers capable of starting and short relievers setting up Rivera.

    Down the road they have guys like Nova, McAllister, de la Rosa, Mitchell, etc…who can be plugged in.

    Again, let’s not overstate what Alfredo Aceves is. He’s a non-closer middle reliever. Guys like that actually do grow on trees.

    If the Yankees can move him to a team that sees him as a back of the rotation starter and get a prospect in return, then that’s a move that benefits the future of the organization without really impacting the present fortunes of the team.

    I get why everyone likes Aceves, he’s a bulldog, willing to do whatever’s needed to help the team, but jeeze guys – you need to stop overvaluing players just because they wear pinstripes.

  174. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 2:40 pm

    Chip,

    No I’m not. I was there the day Torre went postal on him. It was in 1996, Torre’s first year with the Yankees and had nothing to do with the YES Network since YES wasn’t even in business back then.

    Kay has always felt Torre singled him out because he was one of Buck Showalter’s best friends and wanted to show the players he wasn’t going to tolerate any “Rona Barrett’s” (what Torre called him. She was a former NY gossip columnist) around the team.

  175. murphydog January 28th, 2010 at 2:41 pm

    GB7:

    Or, “You can lead a “horticulture,” but you can’t make her read.

    I was once sitting, waiting for a meeting to being at a small NYS Entity at which I used to toil. This small governmental operation controlled a certain 92 acres of property on the lower west side of Manhattan. Very posh offices in the World Financial Center (all pre-9/11 of course. The office was right across West Street from the Towers). In any event, I was as appreciated on that staff as a wart on the tip of Miss America’s nose. The last person they ever wanted at their elite staff meetings was an ill-bred, non-Ivy League, former prosecutor from Fordham.

    Well, I found myself sitting next to one of the staffers from the parks group, a seemingly very nice guy who obviously knew his stuff. Trying to make small talk (I always seem to blow this simple task up) I asked him what his exact specialty was and he said “Horticulture.”

    I immediately proceeded, dead pan, to say: “You can lead a horticulture but you can’t make her read.” He looked at me as though I had just sprouted leaves and said, “Excuse me,” and moved his seat. He never spoke to me again.

    I guess it worked out OK after all.

  176. Bronx Jeers January 28th, 2010 at 2:41 pm

    Just how many “journeys” does a player have to make in order to be labeled a “journeyman”.

    Aceves was in Mexico…now he’s a Yankee. I’m only counting one journey there.

  177. mick January 28th, 2010 at 2:41 pm

    I question the assension of Kay. He is basically a newspaper guy and is generally disliked by listeners. Maybe he works cheap.

  178. DaSaint007 January 28th, 2010 at 2:42 pm

    Chip,

    The Yankees do need a ‘Mendoza’ type pitcher. I think Gaudin is more likely to be traded than Aceves. He’s got NL experience, and an affordable salary for a starter. Aceves is under team control, is cheaper, and projects as a long-man with starter capability. Aceves takes Gaudin’s spot should he be traded, but you have to have him around.

    Mitre, IMO, is less talented than Aceves or Gaudin. He’d be a throw in in any trade, and could be someone else’s #4 or #5 starter, particularly in the NL.

  179. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2010 at 2:46 pm

    murphydog
    January 28th, 2010 at 2:41 pm
    GB7:

    Or, “You can lead a “horticulture,” but you can’t make her read.

    Here’s my favorite: “Ducking for apples — change one letter and it’s the story of my life.”

    ————————————————————

    LMAO. Loved Dorothy Parker. There were a lot of acid-tongued witty writers from that group.

  180. rover January 28th, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    I get the feeling if the Nyy win 100 games it won’t have much to do with offense. More likely it will be on the backs of a starting rotation managing to pitch near or better than their career norms. It feels like gone are the late inning comebacks. I know last yhear was out of the ordinary for those. I at this point don’t see the production, hopefully I’m just smokin tainted tobacco. We don’t have a true #2 hitter at the moment. NJ has the bat probably but not the speed. and #5 has no clear cut definition either. Both spots are among the most important. JMO.

  181. DaSaint007 January 28th, 2010 at 2:50 pm

    Chip, one more thing about Aceves. In MY opinion, he’s got the talent to be a starter, the capability to be a long-reliever, but he’s also got the mentality, but maybe not the tools to be a closer on many teams. Guys like that don’t grow on trees. Joba could learn something from him.

  182. Bret the Hitman January 28th, 2010 at 2:50 pm

    lets go yankees
    January 28th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
    “They never offered 2 years to Damon.
    No way.
    That was bulpucky from Boras.”

    ————————-

    Bret, you have really spent a lot of time this offseason trying to debunk something that everyone knows happened.

    Even Damon himself confirmed the offer.

    What is your deal with this subject? Is there some mass conspiracy between Boras, Cash, and Damon you are trying to uncover?

    Find me the link where yankees confirmed a 2 year offer or SYPH

  183. Pat M. January 28th, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    rover…I’m looking for Granderson to hit behind Jeter, and for Robinson Cano to finally reach his potential and fill out the heart of the order and slip into the 5 hole with Posada and Johnson hitting behind him….

  184. Bret the Hitman January 28th, 2010 at 2:52 pm

    I believe the Yankees discussed paramaters of a contract (and possibly one with 2 years) but never put an official written offer on the table.

  185. S.o.S. January 28th, 2010 at 2:52 pm

    I couldn’t get the word through the filters, but, I got my point through.

    =====

    Did you mean that word to be plural? Iv never seen one with two tushes.

  186. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2010 at 2:54 pm

    S.o.S.
    January 28th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
    I couldn’t get the word through the filters, but, I got my point through.

    =====

    Did you mean that word to be plural? Iv never seen one with two tushes.

    ————————————————————

    No, just like some of the comments…only half azs.

  187. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 2:54 pm

    Damon confirmed the offer to Tyler Kepner of the Times the day after it was made. He also did the same with Klapisch and just about every beat writer on the beat.

    The Yankees don’t make their offers public. Searching for that as proof would be futile.

    Damon is a lot of things. A liar isn’t one of them.

    Damon and Boras confirmed the offer. It was there and it was real. It just wasn’t accepted.

  188. murphydog January 28th, 2010 at 2:55 pm

    GB7:

    “LMAO. Loved Dorothy Parker. There were a lot of acid-tongued witty writers from that group.”

    The Algonquin Round Table:

    http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americ.....nquin/527/

  189. Chip January 28th, 2010 at 2:56 pm

    SJ -

    the fact that Aceves makes so little actually helps my point along.

    Follow the bouncing ball:

    The Yankees are committed to paying Sergio Mitre 850k on a MLB Contract
    The Yankees are committed to paying Chad Guadin 2.95 mil on a MLB contract
    Because of their salaries the Yankees probably won’t be able to trade either of them and they certainly aren’t going to just release them or DFA them and absorb the salary

    So if Mitre and Gaudin can’t be traded then it really doesn’t matter if they are better or worse than Aceves. The fact that they are on major league contracts all but assures them of spots on the 25 man roster. At that point my question remains, how many swing men do you need in your pen?

  190. rover January 28th, 2010 at 2:56 pm

    Pat M. Yeah I know there is talk of CG hitting 2 but then you get into his lousy splits. Cano? lord knows he has the bat, but up till now he hasn’t displayed real ability to higher in the order. If in fact he can learn to hit higher he would be ideal for number 5, but we are right back into the ifs, nothing feels solid or good to me.

  191. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day January 28th, 2010 at 2:58 pm

    Aceves struggled in the 2nd half, so I’m somewhat down on him. Maybe the league caught up with him – it wouldn’t be a surprise. Also, he physically can’t seem to handle the pen. He himself had questions about whether he could and I think his latter performances bore that out. He’s got a ways to go with me before I think of him as another Mendoza.

  192. Chip January 28th, 2010 at 2:58 pm

    DaSaint –

    I completely disagree with you on Gaudin being more likely to be traded than Aceves –

    Who is going to trade for a long reliever/spot starter making nearly 3 mil?

    I think you guys are misunderstanding my point. I don’t want to deal Aceves because he’s a bad pitcher. I deal him because the bad contracts given to Mitre and Gaudin make it unlikely that the Yankees will be able to trade either of them this spring without having to absorb the majority of the contract and I think Aceves can bring back more in return.

  193. murphydog January 28th, 2010 at 2:59 pm

    “Just how many “journeys” does a player have to make in order to be labeled a “journeyman”.

    Aceves was in Mexico…now he’s a Yankee. I’m only counting one journey there.”

    Only one journey necessary: The Journey to Ixtlan!

  194. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 2:59 pm

    Chip,

    They can release Mitre within 45 days of the start of ST and not be on the hook for the money.

    They can trade Gaudin to a team needing pitching help, if a pitcher goes down.

    Teams kill to have productive players making 400K on their roster. In today’s baseball, that’s gold.

    They will get rid of Mitre and/or Gaudin before they trade Aceves.

  195. Wave Your Hat January 28th, 2010 at 3:00 pm

    Chip-

    I would think Gaudin is very tradeable. Although at this point I don’t see why they would.

  196. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day January 28th, 2010 at 3:00 pm

    Let me guess – Michael Kay is berating the Yankees for how they handled this thing – big surprise.

  197. Chip January 28th, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    SJ -

    And I’ve spoken to Kay and people who are tight with Kay both at YES and ESPN who disagree with you about where the problem between Kay and Torre started.

  198. mick January 28th, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    Someday Kay will lose his job.

  199. mick January 28th, 2010 at 3:02 pm

    jobs.

  200. S.o.S. January 28th, 2010 at 3:02 pm

    Speaking of Aceves. I found out last month that my sisters daughter(im getting caught in the filters)bff is cousins with Aceves. I wonder if i can get some free tickets for a Yanks Halos game? Never been in this spot before, would you guys do in this situation?

  201. Chip January 28th, 2010 at 3:02 pm

    Wave -

    1. The reason you could see Gaudin or Aceves traded is because in a 7 man pen you don’t need 3 long reliever/spot starters

    2. Given that Aceves is marginally better than Gaudin and makes a ton less money than Gaudin which one do you think would bring back the better return in a trade?

  202. m1kew January 28th, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    DaSaint007 – who is Ring?

  203. m January 28th, 2010 at 3:07 pm

    Betsy,

    Not really. The meds must’ve kicked in, he’s calm. Said it’s smart business not paying for the past.

  204. Wave Your Hat January 28th, 2010 at 3:08 pm

    “The Yankees don’t make their offers public. Searching for that as proof would be futile.”

    No they just tell you, and you come here…

    Seriously, I never said anyone was lying. Certainly not Damon or Cashman and not even you. I have been involved in too many transactions where there were two open offers, one of which was the preferred one and the other was “just in case”. Nothing I’ve read, and nothing you posted, is inconsistent with the theory that Cashman liked NJ best, and was going to look to him first. An offer can be an offer but have strings attached, happens a lot.

  205. vey January 28th, 2010 at 3:09 pm

    Yankees still have a bevy of players from last season, Joe will be a better manager, and Yankees stadium plays to some of the new people strengths.

    Damon and Matsui will be missed but the team wasn’t destroyed, Au Revoir Damon! Gardner,Mitre,Gaudin, et al got to see how quickly Cashman will trade you. I expect them to all be highly motivated.

    Don’t think for a moment this hasn’t gone all around baseball, the players watching Damon’s market value deflate, and what Damon allowed to happen to himself

  206. lets go yankees January 28th, 2010 at 3:09 pm

    Bret the Hitman
    January 28th, 2010 at 2:52 pm

    I believe the Yankees discussed paramaters of a contract (and possibly one with 2 years) but never put an official written offer on the table.

    —————————-

    An offer does not have to be written to be “official” or “enforceable.”

  207. RayVT January 28th, 2010 at 3:10 pm

    Pat M.
    January 28th, 2010 at 2:36 pm

    LOL! I enjoy it too much, but sometimes I chime in. I like Wave’s comments most of the time as well. He brings good insight. But I trust SJ’s judgement on things. No one is 100% correct.

  208. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2010 at 3:10 pm

    murphydog
    January 28th, 2010 at 2:55 pm
    GB7:

    “LMAO. Loved Dorothy Parker. There were a lot of acid-tongued witty writers from that group.”

    The Algonquin Round Table:

    http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americ…..nquin/527/

    ————————————————————

    Sadly, their style went the way of a lost era’s sportswriters like Grantland Rice and Ring Lardner, Jr. The pity is that some great writers like Jimmy Cannon decided to go the way of Dave Egan, Dick Young and Henry Hecht and became jerks.

    By the way, that was a great link. Thanks, Murph.

  209. Patrick January 28th, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    Chip you are under the assumption that Mitre makes this team. I think that is a false assumption.

    Both Ace and Gaudin have proven they can be short relievers as well as starters/long relievers.

    I think it’s pretty simple. Aceves is better than Gaudin and Mitre by a fairly significant margin. He is also cheaper than both Gaudin and Mitre. I don’t see any incentive to trade him.

    To say the Yankees don’t need him is absurd. He was 10-1 last year in 84 innings with a 3.54 ERA. Without Aceves, who knows if the Yankees even make the playoffs in 2009?

    I just don’t see him as being easily replaceable. There’s a reason we compare him to Ramiro Mendoza, the Yanks haven’t had a pitcher similar to Ace since Mendoza. That should tell you that pitchers of his ilk are rare and most certainly not disposable.

  210. Bronx Jeers January 28th, 2010 at 3:13 pm

    Cool. A Castaneda reference.

    “Someday Kay will lose his job.”

    Kay seems to be a master at Yankee/YES political relations.

    And I can’t say he keeps his head off the block by sugar coating everything because the few times I’ve heard his radio show, he’s ripped the team.

    I guess he just kisses the right tushes in the right spots.

    In case anybody hasn’t heard, (I hadn’t until yesterday) Cone is out. Which is bad news as far as I’m concerned.

    Good news is Tino’s signed up to do 40 games.

  211. Wave Your Hat January 28th, 2010 at 3:13 pm

    Chip-

    You want me to say Aceves, but I’m not sure about that. Gaudin is a “proven” starter, Aceves isn’t. I could see a team liking Gaudin as a 4th or 5th starter but being uncomfortable with Aceves in that role.

    Anyway, if I were the Yanks, I’d try to trade Gaudin before I tried to trade Aceves. I wouldn’t move either right now.

  212. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2010 at 3:13 pm

    S.o.S.
    January 28th, 2010 at 3:02 pm
    Speaking of Aceves. I found out last month that my sisters daughter(im getting caught in the filters)bff is cousins with Aceves. I wonder if i can get some free tickets for a Yanks Halos game? Never been in this spot before, would you guys do in this situation?

    ————————————————————

    Do what most red blooded male would do. hit him up for free tickets and then make a pass at his wife at the games.

  213. SJ44 January 28th, 2010 at 3:13 pm

    Wave,

    That’s true. However, in this case, that didn’t happen.

    As far as knowing the people involving, I’ll choose to believe them since I don’t get lied to by them. If you want to believe otherwise, that’s ok by me.

    You don’t need to be a wiss-a–. It doesn’t amplify your point. It minimizes it.

    There was no big mystery. They made an offer, he turned it down, and they went to Plan B.

    They tried to resurrect the offer, on lesser terms this week, something they wouldn’t do if they didn’t want the player, and it didn’t work out.

    Its not more complicated than that.

  214. YankeeFan4Eva January 28th, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    Can we trade Kay for a falafel?

  215. Pat M. January 28th, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    rover, Cano’s time has come….The time has come for him to hit.330, drive in 100 & hit 30 over the fence….Actually I expected that from him in 09….As for Damon, when Cashman landed Curtis Granderson ( great trade ), that should have sounded alarms in the Damon / Boras camp…They just shrugged it off as they ( The Yanks ) do what they have to do to improve the club….However that was the first salvo, then Mats leaves and inks with the Angles…DH spot is open….Then came the 2 /30 request and then here comes Nick Johnson….

  216. Patrick January 28th, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    The Yanks are the favorite to win the 2010 world series, they aren’t in the business of trading good pitchers that will contribute to the 2010 season for raw A-ball pitchers.

    Chip you got your wish for a mediocre player when the Yankees signed Randy Winn. Go out on top buddy.

  217. vinny-b January 28th, 2010 at 3:17 pm

    “Can we trade Kay for a falafel”
    ————————————-
    ok. Greek food is good.

  218. Chip January 28th, 2010 at 3:18 pm

    Patrick -

    There are nearly 1 million reasons why Mitre is going to make the club.

    Wave -

    I wouldn’t trade either right now either, but middle of spring training is another story.

  219. lets go yankees January 28th, 2010 at 3:19 pm

    Bret,

    To expand on my last point just a bit. Cash could hand-delivered an offer in blood and it would be more official then a verbal offer in most instances

  220. Wave Your Hat January 28th, 2010 at 3:19 pm

    CB-

    If you are around, have you seen the projections on Baseball Prospectus? If so, what do you make of them?

  221. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day January 28th, 2010 at 3:20 pm

    M, thanks! I generally like Kay (he’s a very, very nice guy – I’ve called in a few times), except for the times he drives me crazy, lol. I just wasn’t in the mood to hear a rant against the Yankees, so I’m glad he didn’t live down to my expectations. I turned him on a few minutes ago and they were talking about Andre Dawson going into the HOF as an Expo. That just ticks me off. I know the HOF changed their procedures after Winfield made a deal with the Pads, but it just strikes me as unfair to penalize most players for the sins of a few. It should be the player’s choice what hat he wears – I can completely understand why Dawson is upset.

  222. S.o.S. January 28th, 2010 at 3:21 pm

    Do what most red blooded male would do. hit him up for free tickets and then make a pass at his wife at the games.

    =========

    GB7,
    Well that depends on how hot his wife is and how blind mine is. I would say one of those two answeres which already kills the thought. On second thought, she always said that if we ever were to go broke, i can go to a brown label chippendales to work. One that accepts a little baby fat around the waste(2 pack, sometimes called love handles).

  223. Erin January 28th, 2010 at 3:22 pm

    S.o.S.
    January 28th, 2010 at 3:02 pm
    Speaking of Aceves. I found out last month that my sisters daughter(im getting caught in the filters)bff is cousins with Aceves. I wonder if i can get some free tickets for a Yanks Halos game? Never been in this spot before, would you guys do in this situation?

    ****************************
    That’s so cool!! I would definitely try to get tickets-but I would also probably demand an introduction to Ace. ;)

  224. Austinmac January 28th, 2010 at 3:23 pm

    An offer for more than one year must be in writing to be enforceable. That said, I am sure a verbal offer would not be withdrawn until rejected or not accepted in a reasonble time. The Yankees wouldn’t hurt their reputation with agents.

    The bottom line is, I feel, is the Yankees verbally said they would pay $14M and it was rejected by a counter offer. The Yankees then moved on.

  225. DaSaint007 January 28th, 2010 at 3:23 pm

    m1kew, Ring is Royce Ring, whom the Yankees signed to a minor league contract.

    Chip, Gaudin has a very affordable contract for $2.9MM. Compared to those making $4-6MM, he’s very tradable, particularly since he’s had a modicum of success in the NL.

    I have no faith in Mitre, but at less than $1MM, he too is affordable to a team in need of filling out their rotation.

    The only reason they’re on this team is the uncertainty of Hughes and Joba as the #5 starter. Vazquez was brought in to make sure that wasn’t uncertainty in the #4 AND #5 starters slots. But should one of Joba or Hughes win that last slot, then all bets are off for BOTH Gaudin and Mitre, as Aceves fits the bill as longman/spot-starter for much less in salary.

  226. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2010 at 3:23 pm

    Pat M.
    January 28th, 2010 at 3:14 pm
    rover, Cano’s time has come….The time has come for him to hit.330, drive in 100 & hit 30 over the fence….Actually I expected that from him in 09….As for Damon, when Cashman landed Curtis Granderson ( great trade ), that should have sounded alarms in the Damon / Boras camp…They just shrugged it off as they ( The Yanks ) do what they have to do to improve the club….However that was the first salvo, then Mats leaves and inks with the Angles…DH spot is open….Then came the 2 /30 request and then here comes Nick Johnson….

    ————————————————————

    Got to agree that Cano is coming to the highpoint in his career. It should last about 5 years before he levels out. Other than maintaining his concentration a little better, all he needs to do to reach the summit is get better at reading the pitchers on the bases better. He’s not slow, just not a good base runner….much like Bernie Williams, but less speed. I’ll never expect him to be a 60-70 walk a year batter.

  227. vinny-b January 28th, 2010 at 3:23 pm

    “I turned him on a few minutes ago and they were talking about Andre Dawson going into the HOF as an Expo”
    ———————————————————

    don’t know if this is a terrible thing. Despite his 1987 MVP season, when i think of Andre Dawson i think of the Expos. The same with Raines

  228. S.o.S. January 28th, 2010 at 3:25 pm

    Kay should have been canned the second he came up with generation trey and took it with him on the air. That as everyone knows jinxed LOS 3 AMIGOS.

  229. Rich in NJ January 28th, 2010 at 3:25 pm

    If the Yankees truly believe that Gardner can be a starter, let him play everyday until he proves that he isn’t.

  230. Chad Jennings January 28th, 2010 at 3:26 pm

    New post.

  231. vinny-b January 28th, 2010 at 3:28 pm

    “Kay should have been canned the second he came up with generation trey and took it with him on the air. That as everyone knows jinxed LOS 3 AMIGOS”
    —————————————————-

    SoS: I should be banned from this site as well. I was pimpin “The Bronx Triangle”

  232. G. Love January 28th, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    I doubt Kay will ever lose his job.

    When you go on the stadium tour and they take you into the Yankee museum they have a massive collection of autographs and autographed baseballs.

    I was stunned to see a Kay autograph amongst them.

    To me, that says how “in” he is with the Yankees.

  233. GreenBeret7 January 28th, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    S.o.S.
    January 28th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
    Do what most red blooded male would do. hit him up for free tickets and then make a pass at his wife at the games.

    =========

    GB7,
    Well that depends on how hot his wife is and how blind mine is. I would say one of those two answeres which already kills the thought. On second thought, she always said that if we ever were to go broke, i can go to a brown label chippendales to work. One that accepts a little baby fat around the waste(2 pack, sometimes called love handles).

    ————————————————————

    I just gave you what I would do. Unlike you, I’m not encumbered with someone who carries a straight razor with the knowledge to use it selectively. Best of luck in your dilemma, S.o.S.

    Seriously, guy. Best of luck on scoring the tickets. Makes you doubly lucky.

  234. Warning Track Power January 28th, 2010 at 3:31 pm

    As of the Winn acq, we now have 5 OF’s.
    Gardner, Hoffman, Granderson, Swisher and Winn.
    2 of the 3 are probably set are everyday players in RF and CF(Swisher and Granderson)
    The remaining 3 will either platoon in left to start the season. More importantly, there is plenty of versatility with this group.
    Not to mention, Swisher can also 1B if needed.
    The season is not starting tomorrow. ST is not starting tomorrow either.
    Let’s see how this plays out in ST and go from there.
    Obviously I wish Damon was in the mix and not someone like Winn or Hoffman, but this is a business and we have to move on with the players we have.

  235. S.o.S. January 28th, 2010 at 3:33 pm

    vinny,
    Come on now. No one wants to retire as an expo. Thats like an nba player retiring as a Clipper. People want to retire with a professional cap on not the minors. Reminds me when they were talking about Boggs going in as a d-ray.

    Erin,
    The funny part about the whole thing was she has been friends with her for years and just now she decides to give me the “O by the way” knowing im a sick Yankyholic. She said that the guy wears #90 and i went blank. I was running through all the players numbers hoping she messed up and it was a smaller one. The first player to come to mind was Hughes who comes from so cal. She had to make a call to find out as i was out of players. I guess its better that it was him than lets say Hinske(someone whos here one day gone the next).

  236. S.o.S. January 28th, 2010 at 3:36 pm

    “The Bronx Triangle”

    ========

    I like it!!
    Time to make up a name for the remaining 2.
    All i can think of is
    Dynamic Duo
    Laurell and Hardy

  237. rover January 28th, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    Pat M. Ihave to agree with you and GB7. There is no doubt in my mind that Cano has the stick. I too hope he has finally matured enough to hit 5. He has the power and contact, could do better drawing the walks.
    However up to and until we see that he translates at 5 it is still up for grabs. Personally I want cano to get it done. jnust not sure he will.

    I don’t like any options currently thought to be #2. NJ CG both are incomplete I think, we will seee. I wish them both great success. Granderson good power lousy splis with some speed. Nj good contact, OBp, some pop when healthy, only posada could be slower. Just doesn’t feel balanced, but I don’t get paid the big bucks, Good luck to all ofe em.

  238. pat January 28th, 2010 at 3:55 pm

    So based on what Sherman says, Cash said he had a mystery player willing to take less. Boras thinks he’s bluffing and Cash signs Johnson. Scott whines he’s been had.

    All that’s missing is a tweet and Gammons telling us about someones shopping preferences.

    I think I’ve seen this movie before but Scott Boras has been cast in the role of John Henry.

  239. george January 28th, 2010 at 4:05 pm

    “Does Gardner need a platoon partner?”

    no, Gardner needs to be on the bench, and Johnny Damon needs to be in LF.

    but since Cashman screwed that negotiation up, we now have a CF who can’t hit lefties, a LF who may not be able to hit righties or lefties, and Randy Winn, who is mediocre at best these days from both sides. i guess u could say Cashman’s done a great job of collecting OFs who only would start on teams like the Royals. great.

  240. Warning Track Power January 28th, 2010 at 4:06 pm

    George-Please explain how Cash screwed up the negotiation with Damon.
    That is totally false and without any merit.

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  243. pistol pete January 29th, 2010 at 12:39 am

    Agree with George. How are we better offensively. Granderson hit 249 and can’t hit leftys, Gardner is a part time player, and Winn is washed up and also can’t hit leftys. We’ll miss Matsui’s and Damon’s late game tough at bats. I realize they were old and don’t mind losing one of them but I’m concerned losing both of them and getting 2 guys that are automatic outs vs leftys. Need a right handed bat off the bench.

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