Everybody’s favorite target
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- February
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So, apparently the fascination with the Yankees payroll crosses over a variety of sports lines. In one of the more bizarre pseudo-rips of the Yankees free-spending ways (and Brian Cashman), Baltimore Ravens owner Steve Bisciotti – yup, an NFL owner – said this at a press conference today (tip of the hat to good friend Peter Schmuck at the Baltimore Sun):
“It certainly doesn’t show up in the standings,” Bisciotti said. “If I’m a Yankees fan, I’m upset we’re not winning 130 games with the roster that they have and the money that they pay out. I think it’s a disgrace they only beat the average team by 10 games in the standings with three times the money. I’d fire that GM. You don’t need a GM. All you have to do is buy the last Cy Young Award winner every year.”
Obviously Bisciotti is a fan of the NFL’s salary cap structure, but the strange thing about this quote is that it could actually be taken as an argument against salary caps. After all, if allowing a team to spend whatever it wants doesn’t guarantee 130 wins and a title every year – as Bisciotti points out – than what’s the point of having one at all?
Either way, doesn’t Bisciotti have, like, bigger things to worry about? You know, like the NFL possibly shutting down?
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on Wednesday, February 3rd, 2010 at 6:59 pm by Sam Borden.
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Chad Jennings
Josh Thomson
For anyone that thinks sabermetrics is just about cranking out fancy acronyms, I suggest you read this article. It is a tool Josh Kalk developed that attempts to identify a pitcher injury several pitches before it happens. Less then a month after developing this tool he was hired by the Rays FO.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/m…..jury-zone/
Man that was a great Jeter interview on MLB Network
Wow, Bisciotti is a tool.
Carl
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:07 pm
Man that was a great Jeter interview on MLB Network
What did he talk about?
Uncle Ellsworth (Expert textpert choking smokers, don’t you think the joker laughs at you) February 3rd, 2010 at 7:10 pm
Carl
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:07 pm
Man that was a great Jeter interview on MLB Network
What did he talk about?
Talked about how he worked on his range. A-Rod having a postseason to remember. Sad to see Matsui/Damon go. Happy to have Granderson/Winn. He worked out with Winn in the offseason. Said he is still having fun playing the game. And a lot more.
Thanks Carl what show was it on? I’ll look for it when I get home.
Peter Schmuck? Ouch… I’d change my name, lol.
Uncle Ellsworth (Expert textpert choking smokers, don’t you think the joker laughs at you) February 3rd, 2010 at 7:15 pm
Thanks Carl what show was it on? I’ll look for it when I get home.
MLB Hot stove on MLB Network.
lets go yankees -
That is indeed valuable information. But not necessary for the enjoyment of the game. Unless you’re laying bets on which pitchers are likely to get injured when (j/k).
Seriously, though, that really points out what my feelings on what most of the statistics accomplish, which is to help the business end of baseball. It is quite valuable for a team to have as much information on their pitchers as possible to guard against injury or to plan for it monetarily. It is not something I need to know to enjoy the game. And you keep saying it is a tool for enjoyment of the game. I think that is most likely true for a small percentage of fans.
I might read an article like that and find it interesting, enlightening and even entertaining in and of itself because I like finding out new things. But, again, if I never saw that information it would not hurt my enjoyment of the game. I would not miss it.
(Frankly, to be perfectly honest, I could enjoy a game without knowing RBI, BA and ERA, either!)
Fielding percentage is the ultimate defensive statistic.
All those stats are air filler by announcers in between the action. Since then it was like Topsy (err Alphabet Soup).
To where it is now “Well, Swisher fails to drive in Posada and draws a walk, thus increasing the chances for a DP and a loss for the Yankees. Fans will be happy as he continues his strong OBP performance”.
let’s go yankees-
last night you said:
“I gave up baseball before HS as it was my worst sport in comparison to soccer and basketball and because I simply did not have enough time to play all 3. I can tell you right now that there are tons of people who have never stepped on a soccer field or basketball court that know way more about evaluating the soccer and basketball players then me.
If anything playing those sports so much resulted in me knowing less about the game overall, because I spent all my time on the field or court and not observing, studying, watching the game and other players.”
so your point is that the more someone plays a sport the less they know about it?
are you sticking to that story?
the more derek jeter plays the less he knows about it?
the more girardi played the less he knows about it?
the more mariano rivera pitches the less he knows about it
you really think that makes sense ?
“…Fielding percentage is the ultimate defensive statistic…”
This oughta be good – somebody’s gonna bite on this bait; and bite hard.
Be vewy vewy quiet, I’m huntin Sabermetricians.
randy,
Wow. You are really digging for something to hang your hat on. I must say you are quite talented at putting words in my mouth and making sweeping generalizations based on those things.
Like I said in the last thread, this discussion with you ran its course when it turned to your argument being based on your dislike for Bill James the term “sabermetric.”
“…Fielding percentage is the ultimate defensive statistic…”
This oughta be good – somebody’s gonna bite on this bait; and bite hard.
——————————————————-
UZR is the new best defensive stat and it fluctuates year to year by 10 points. Doesn’t work accuately for 1B and not at all for C. Why is that?
During most of Rivera’s tenure, the Yankees trotted out very bad defensive IFs yet they have only committed 22 errors behind him. Now we know that batters have a hard time squaring up the bats on his pitches resulting in weak grounders and pop ups. And the stats say…..
Great point Sam! The effects of a salary cap in baseball wouldn’t be drastic. The harder question to answer is how could they ever begin using one with these $100 million contracts all over baseball?
let’s go yankees-
admit it . i gotcha with my last post.
checkmate.
no one can say the more that jeter, rivera, and girardi play the less they know.
…but thanks for hanging in there with the argument. your true honest feelings came out that the more baseball players play the less you think they know.
i think this is a common belief among the stat community.
thanks again for laying it out so clearly.
The more I listen to Tim Mcarver broadcasts the less I know, maybe it works the same.
“For years, Alex Rodriguez could not bring himself to “slow the game down” in postseason situations where the team was counting on him.”
Couldn’t, didn’t or sample size?
A-Rod
Career
.305 .390 .576 .965
Postseason
.302 .409 .568 .977
blake
Be vewy vewy quiet, I’m huntin Sabermetricians.
—————————————
It’s “Sabewmatwicians”!
“no one can say the more that jeter, rivera, and girardi play the less they know.
…but thanks for hanging in there with the argument. your true honest feelings came out that the more baseball players play the less you think they know.
i think this is a common belief among the stat community.”
—————————
This is so logically flawed and inaccurate I do not even know what to say.
He is trolling you.
“Be vewy vewy quiet, I’m huntin Sabermetricians.”
blake-
that would make a great t-shirt.
Thanks Jerkface,
After the I hate the word sabermetric thing came out, I honestly do not know what he is saying to believe.
Tbone,
Good call..my bad
Good call..my bad
—————————-
Elmer Fudd quotes are never bad.
vin
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:09 pm
Wow, Bisciotti is a tool.
===
In my world, biscotti is a delicious, biscuity kind of cookie made by italians that we like to dunk in espresso around here.
The words are too similar. I move that this clown change his name.
With all the huntin’ going on around here all an innocent bystander can do is duck.
It seems to be the “Clampetts” vs. The “McCoys”.
All the more reason the NFL is a relevant to me as synchronized swimming.
I will watch the Super Bowl though… the half time show that is. Life hasn’t been the same since my first Who concert in 1970.
Drive 4- 5
February 3rd, 2010 at 8:03 pm
All the more reason the NFL is a relevant to me as synchronized swimming.
I will watch the Super Bowl though… the half time show that is. Life hasn’t been the same since my first Who concert in 1970.
*******************
I have seen The Who live twice. To call it an amazing experience would be an understatement.
“This is so logically flawed and inaccurate I do not even know what to say.”
let’s go yankees-
you’d be smart to move on at this point.
you’re going to look silly saying the more girardi played the less he knew.
hey , you want one of those”“Be vewy vewy quiet, I’m huntin Sabermetricians. t-shirts blake is making ?
i’ll buy you one.
it’ll be great wearing one at SABR meetings.
steveoh
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:16 pm
Peter Schmuck? Ouch… I’d change my name, lol.
***************
I thought the same thing.
There would be no truer test of love than a man with that last name getting married and his future wife agreeing to take that name
If this is what Let’s go Yankees said :
“…If anything playing those sports so much resulted in me knowing less about the game overall, because I spent all my time on the field or court and not observing, studying, watching the game and other players…”
…then it certainly does not mean that Jeter’s getting stupider the longer that he plays ! The idea he may be driving at may be like – Cody Ransom isn’t playing as much as Jeter; so Cody may be sitting around observing, studying, watching the game and other players within the game. Thus Cody (who obviously isn’t playing as much as Jeter) may be better preparing himself to be a better manager / coach / scout / front office executive.
It’s a time management / time investment issue.
In this hypothetical there is a very good chance that the Cody Ransom’s of the world turn out better suited for those positions than the Derek Jeter’s of the world.
There are countless examples in MLB of this concept – even before SaberStats.
With all the huntin’ going on around here all an innocent bystander can do is duck.
It seems to be the “Clampetts” vs. The “McCoys”.
——————————————————–
You were doing good until after the duck. Then Non sequitur
Erica,
I was lucky enough ( or should I say I’m old enough lol) to have seen the Who 3 times while Keith Moon was still alive. He was incomparable. The Who were a lead guitarist playing with a lead drummer and a lead bass player. And Roger Daltrey was a show unto himself. I’ve seen them 3 more times since Keith’s passing. Always terrific shows, but never the same as it was.
Drive 4- 5
February 3rd, 2010 at 8:11 pm
Erica,
I was lucky enough ( or should I say I’m old enough lol) to have seen the Who 3 times while Keith Moon was still alive. He was incomparable. The Who were a lead guitarist playing with a lead drummer and a lead bass player. And Roger Daltrey was a show unto himself. I’ve seen them 3 more times since Keith’s passing. Always terrific shows, but never the same as it was.
***************
Unfortunately, Keith Moon died before I was born. In fact, my first Who show was 2002, the summer John Entwhistle died.
I would have really liked to have seen the original group together. I can’t imagine the next level that would have been
I’m not exactly anti-sabermetrics. I don’t see them as the end all be all and I still think traditional scouting is more valuable in player evaluation but I do think they have their place and Ill admit I occasionally get on Fangraphs are read articles and surf around.
That said, there is one yet to be dveloped stat that I would be interested in..the PB:DDM. (the ratio of sabermetricians that actually played baseball to the ones that are dungeons and dragons masters.). Anybody think the PB side would be larger?
Tigers and Verlander just locked up a 5 yr / 80 mil deal.
Furthermore, http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....-deal.html
It always cracks me up/infuriates me when pro-NFL people complain about baseball and their parity, and how much better things are with a salary cap.
In the last decade, baseball has had 8 DIFFERENT teams win World Series championships.
The NFL? Only seven different Super Bowl winners.
Also, look at the playoffs in general. Year in and year out, there are staple teams who get in. This likely has to do with there being 12 playoff sports, but regardless, there are a handful of teams who are in almost every year, only missing in rare occasions.
MLB? Not so much. Sure, MLB only has 8 teams get in, but outside of the Yankees, and recently the Red Sox, the other teams have been mixed and varied.
I also crack up when NFL fans complain that baseball is “too slow”, and “nothing happens”. A recent study shows that in a regular 3 hour broadcast, there is ELEVEN MINUTES of ACTUAL action. The rest of the time is spent on commercials, replays, and shots of the players standing around.
There are about a billion and a half ways that baseball has it over the NFL, but because baseball doesn’t involve guys beating the ever loving daylights out of each other, it takes a backseat. It’s really quite unfortunate.
lets go yankees:
randy l’s “clowning” you, yo. Roll with it
Thunderfingers!
Erica – always OPPC – Is done with Brian Cashman!
February 3rd, 2010 at 8:06 pm
steveoh
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:16 pm
Peter Schmuck? Ouch… I’d change my name, lol.
***************
I thought the same thing.
There would be no truer test of love than a man with that last name getting married and his future wife agreeing to take that name
============================================================
I can imagine the fiance telling her friends the news. “Guess what, girls. I’m marrying a Schmuck.” Response: “We could have told you that. We know him.”
I’m giving Bisciotti the virtual finger.
I’m also fining myself 50 thousand virtual dollars. (It’s worth it.)
“The words are too similar. I move that this clown change his name.”
Yeah, I had to do a double take to make sure his name was spelled differently.
Also, an actual biscotti may know more about baseball.
Finally leaving work.
Good night everyone!
What Schmuck doesn’t realize is, it’s tough being a Yankee.
You have to deal with the toughest media in the world — it’s a constant pressure cooker. Then everyone gets up to play us. Think about it, when Kansas City rolls into Baltimore, do you think the O’s get fired up and play all out like it’s game 7 of the ALCS? The Yanks never get a chance to catch their breath, and wind is always blowing in their face. And that’s why their budget has to be higher than laid-back, anonymous teams like the Angels and Dodgers.
Steve B needs to shut the #$%^ up and worry about his fledgling job recruiting firm before he knocks Cashman and the Yanks… what a loser…
Bisciotti is a disingenuous fool.
Carl, was the interview on the Hot Stove show? If so, I’ll make sure to catch it later. Thanks!
By the way, today is the Day the Music Died. RIP Buddy Holly, Big Bopper and Ritchie Valens
is this your busy season, Erica?
vin
February 3rd, 2010 at 8:28 pm
“The words are too similar. I move that this clown change his name.”
Yeah, I had to do a double take to make sure his name was spelled differently.
Also, an actual biscotti may know more about baseball.
====
Agreed. Although the authentic biscotti would always end every debate with a dismissive “Not as good as Joe D.”
Lincecum Talks Not Going Well
By Mike Axisa [February 3 at 5:36pm CST]
Talks about a two-year contract between the Giants and two-time defending Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum have not been going well according to CSNBayArea.com’s Mychael Urban. In fact, Urban says it would be more accurate to call the negotiations “dismissals” rather than “discussions,” because the righty’s camp has rejected every one of the team’s proposals.
SI.com’s Jon Heyman states the obvious and says that the two sides are likely headed to an arbitration hearing later this month, however he adds that this is something that likely never would have happened under Peter Magowan’s watch. Magowan stepped down as the team’s managing partner after the 2008 season, and had historically taken care of his star players.
Lincecum filed for $13MM in his first year of arbitration eligibility, while the team countered with just $8MM. He’s going to set a new salary record for a first year eligible pitcher regardless of the outcome, but it’s worth noting that Lincecum’s average fastball velocity dropped from 94.1-mph in 2008 to 92.4-mph last season, so perhaps the club has some concerns about his long-term durability.
————————————————————
So, if Lincecum gets hurt, who’s betting money on the first reader that claims to know this would happen, because he read the book that explains how to correctly predict pitching injuries?
Yeah, sorry. But NFL football just isn’t my game anymore. It’s too much like “professional” wrestling these days, or maybe more like Cops or Law and Order.
There seem to be fewer skells per square inch in MLB. Not saying there aren’t some offenders in The Show, there are. I just don’t seem to recall too many major league baseball players getting arrested for or being killed in violent felonies, as compared to the NFL or NBA.
Is there a stat to back me up? Like, CrimRecIPS (”Criminal Record Independent Pitching Statistic”)?
130 games? Those are pretty high standards, especially coming from a man who owns a team in a sport that only plays 16 games during the regular season! Moron.
Serious question:
Can an arbitrator make a team pay a player an amount it can’t afford, or that would handcuff it in trying to improve other areas of the team?
Seems to me that Lincecum is really pushing things here. Not in a good way.
February made me shiver
for every paper I delivered
oops/ with not for…
Bad news on the doorstep.
Doreen– in baseball arbitration the arbitrator only has two choices, the player’s number and the team’s number. The arbitrator doesn’t have the typical powers people associate with him(her). They just choose the number closest to the worth of the player. I am now speculating but I think their choice is not based on the worth th player would get on the FA market (Lincecum may be worth $20m) but the worth of a player closest to the one in arbitration in experience and skill.
I think it’s a disgrace Steve Biscotti only owns one more football team than the average person, since he has 700 times the average worker’s money.
Doreen
It’s an either/or number so hypothetically, yes.
Rob NY -
Yes, I understand that part. But what I guess I’m asking here is this. There are two numbers presented, and the team can’t afford to pay the player’s asking price. Will the arbitrator decide to award the player’s amount in spite of that?
I find it difficult to believe that as good as Lincecum is that he is already worth $20 million after only, what 2 or 3 seasons. And it’s guaranteed money to boot.
Doreen
February 3rd, 2010 at 8:44 pm
Serious question:
Can an arbitrator make a team pay a player an amount it can’t afford, or that would handcuff it in trying to improve other areas of the team?
Seems to me that Lincecum is really pushing things here. Not in a good way.
————————————————————
Though, it’s doubtful an independent arbitrator would do it just to hurt a team, if he feels the player’s request is more fair than the team’s, he’ll side with the player regardless of the team’s ability to pay.
The finale of the Randy l. / lets go yankees battle that lasted nearly 24 hours reminded me of “The Gossage – Vardebedian Papers” if anybody is familiar with Getting Even.
http://maxxwolf.tripod.com/woody.html
I was going to post that Bisciotti is a tool. Unsurprisingly, it only took three posts for someone to state the obvious. Hopefully, Randy Levine will drop the hammer on him like he did to MLS’ commissioner.
“admit it . i gotcha with my last post.
checkmate.”
Randy, this is really a sad display on your part.
But your viewpoint is beginning to come into clearer focus. Its become obvious that your self-professed view of sabermetrics as being a religion and EVERYONE who finds value in advanced metrics is a devotee of said religion is where you go completely go off the rails.
Now we can spend all night discussing the context of the James quote (but we won’t, because you’re clearly not prepared to reconsider anything), but that’s really not the most troublesome aspect of your assumptions.
It’s that you acknowledge this one quote has entirely colored your view of everyone and ANYONE who find values in advanced stats, concluding their sole intent and purpose is to discredit a notion you happen to believe in, rather than simply look for new ways to evaluate outcomes in a game that has a unique number of possible ones.
The irony is, your position is REMARKABLY similar in premise to those you imagine yourself opposing.
You said:
“what i see is someone who has an opinion about something . i’ll leave it to you and others to guess why bill james was so motivated to prove in his own mind that some people weren’t better than he is.”
Now if you replace “bill james” in that sentence with “randy l”, the statement to me reads as a very succinct description of your actions that last 24 hours.
You acknowledge in the same post your view of James and sabermetricians is an “OPINION” (your word), you seem very motivated to prove (see your “I gotcha” quote above) in your mind that some people aren’t better than you are (see your use of the term “elitists”.
You’re quite clearly taking this very personally, which is really misplaced.
I don’t care what subject we’re talking. A reasonable mind practicing critical thinking does not make the rash about individual PEOPLE assumptions that you are.
Sabermetricians (for lack of a better term) are like any large group. There are reasonable ones and unreasonable ones. Ones that use stats to support their conclusions and those who base their conclusions on stats. There are ones that err in their calculations and those who provide new and useful ideas of looking at information.
Putting your various, at times fluid ideas together, I feel I’m on fairly safe ground to suggest you view ALL these people as uppity, elitist, slide-ruler types that never had the ability to play the game and resent it, so they try to manipulate stats to discredit the talents of people that can.
And there is just no defense of those sorts of blanket assumptions.
I’ve got little problem is you want to villify Bill James, regardless of how misinformed you might be. But to attribute that one paragraph so ingrained in your memory to such a large and diverse group of individuals is pure out and out bigotry.
A lot of times, especially in the beginning of arbitration, the arbitors didn’t have the slightest cloe of a player’s worth….clearly not sabermetricians. The first arbitor was Peter Seitz, who knew nothing about baseball, according to him. He’s the one that declared Catfish Hunter was a free agent.
How is that good for baseball? How?
the slightest ***clue*** of a player’s worth
Biscotti is a wannabe.
He’s just disappointed that he is an owner of an NFL franchise and yet nobody knows who he is…
So he hikes on the the most NY Yankees to get 30 seconds in the spotlight.
Steinbrenner purchased a money losing franchise from CBS in the early 1970’s and turned it into the most successful Sports Franchise in the History of the USA.
Nobody complains that the ‘AVATAR” movie cost $400 million to make and has pulled in about $2.0 billion.
The Yankees spend about $1.25 million per game for on-field talent to attract the attendance in a Stadium in the Bronx and brings TV viewership in a City that has more top-shelf sports and entertaintain choices available to the people that reside in its metropolitan area than any place in the World.
How is it that nobody complains that the franchises in Pittsburgh and KC don’t spend squat to improve their teams and give the fans something to come out and cheer for.
At least the Marlins, Rays and Twins have figured out how to develop in house talent. Now MLB is embarrassing the ownerships to spend some of the money they get from the Yanks and reinvest in there on-field talent.
Salary Caps are for those that love mediocrity (NBA).
Land of the Free Baby and Home of the Brave!
Also, let us not loose sight of the fact that the name Peter Schmuck is, in fact, still very very funny.
And here’s another think about it: Lincecum and his team may not be negotiating in good faith precisely because of the either/or nature of the decision. It’s worth the chance of getting the $20 mill. How is that a good thing?
And, if they can’t afford to pay him what happens? Or if they can afford to pay him but no one else, he’ll be making is $20 million but playing on a losing team and know that he sunk the franchise.
I know I am overstating the case somewhat.
“The arbitration is a “high-low” proceeding, during which each side presents its case for why the player should be awarded the requested salary in the upcoming season. In deciding to award the higher or lower salary, the panel may consider the following criteria:
(1) the player’s contribution to the club in terms of performance and leadership;
(2) the club’s record and its attendance;
(3) any and all of the player’s “special accomplishments,” including All-Star game appearances, awards won, and postseason performance;
(4) the salaries of comparable players in the player’s service-time class and, for players with less than five years of service, the class one year ahead of him.
The parties may not refer to team finances, previous offers made during negotiations, comments from the press or salaries in other sports or occupations.”
http://baseball.suite101.com/a.....z0eWrX6TlW
Doreen
February 3rd, 2010 at 9:06 pm
How is that good for baseball? How?
————————————————————
Not all laws are good, but, they are still laws.
Tom in NJ
Thank you for the definitive answer! thank you!
GB7 -
I know.
I tip my cap to this clown Bisciotti. He seems to be one of the dumber people around yet he somehow got his hands on enough money to own a franchise.
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.....id=7152813
Derek Jeter interview on MLB Network. Sorry if posted.
Didn’t Lincecum file for $13M not $20M?
Speaking of Catfish Hunter….he had a great sense of humor and was no fan of Reggie Jackson as a person. “When you unwrap a Reggie bar, it tells you how good it is”.
and
“There’s not enough mustard in the world to cover Reggie Jackson”.
“# Donnie – Will Meet Steve Bisciotti Under the O’Neill Banner February 3rd, 2010 at 8:21 pm
It always cracks me up/infuriates me when pro-NFL people complain about baseball and their parity, and how much better things are with a salary cap.
In the last decade, baseball has had 8 DIFFERENT teams win World Series championships.
The NFL? Only seven different Super Bowl winners.
Also, look at the playoffs in general. Year in and year out, there are staple teams who get in. This likely has to do with there being 12 playoff sports, but regardless, there are a handful of teams who are in almost every year, only missing in rare occasions.
MLB? Not so much. Sure, MLB only has 8 teams get in, but outside of the Yankees, and recently the Red Sox, the other teams have been mixed and varied.
I also crack up when NFL fans complain that baseball is “too slow”, and “nothing happens”. A recent study shows that in a regular 3 hour broadcast, there is ELEVEN MINUTES of ACTUAL action. The rest of the time is spent on commercials, replays, and shots of the players standing around.
There are about a billion and a half ways that baseball has it over the NFL, but because baseball doesn’t involve guys beating the ever loving daylights out of each other, it takes a backseat. It’s really quite unfortunate.
”
I love baseball but all this NFL bashing just looks like jealousy. It’s an NFL world and everyone else is living in it. Look at their ratings, it’s on another level…no other sport comes close, they must be doing something right. And Yes I will be watching the Super Bowl to see 2 great QBs face off.
And I think a Salary Cap would be good for baseball in addition to a Salary Floor. It would make interest increase for markets like KC, Pittsburgh, and Florida b/c they can no longer give up on the sport b/c ‘the evil Yankees and Red Sox’ spend all the money and make the playoffs every year. Now chances are the Yankees and Red Sox will continue to be contenders and class organizations but I guarantee mass appeal will increase with a salary cap and/or floor.
Verlander’s deal brings the Tigers to $127M for 18 players unless I’m reading this wrong.
http://spreadsheets.google.com.....utput=html
2009 payroll was $115M- so much for cutting costs.
Scott and Johnny must not be happy.
pat
And Granderson.
pat -
Yes. someone threw out the $20 million number as an example and I ran with it.
Tampa is looking more and more like Damon’s last refuge.
tampayank :
Take the betting out of the NFL and you have a much less attractive product…
Yes – I am an NFL fan, too,
stuckey-
let’s go yankees explained it to me.
you know , his idea that the more players play the less they know about baseball.
no need to go further.
that really seems to explains the stat community position.
if you disagree with let’s go yankees and think like i do that players know more about the game the more they play, feel free to speak up.
pat
February 3rd, 2010 at 9:28 pm
Verlander’s deal brings the Tigers to $127M for 18 players unless I’m reading this wrong.
http://spreadsheets.google.com…..utput=html
2009 payroll was $115M- so much for cutting costs.
Scott and Johnny must not be happy.
*************
Ok I’ll take the next step
August 1,2010 New York Yankee Lineup
Jeter
Granderson
Tex
Arod
MIGUEL CABRERA
Posada
Cano
Swisher
Gardner
“that really seems to explains the stat community position.”
NO, and this perfectly illustrates both your tactics and yor shortcomings. Right, wrong or anything in-between, it represents let’s go Yankees’ position, NOT the position of a community.
Now I could spend all time taking quotes of people who profess to be … oh let’s say Christians, as you introduced the religion analogy, and attempt to paint ALL Christians with them.
And I could dig up some really heinous things. Or I could mischaracterize other things I didn’t understand. But attributing those thoughts and ideas to EVERYONE who describe themselves as christian would be intellectually bankrupt of me.
So do you have left to respond to what *I* wrote, or are you going to transparently cling to what you view as your out from the corner you’ve backed yourself into?
….that is not my position. Apparently randy got tired of pulling arguments out of his…and so he is attempting to use comedic relief to cover up his ridiculous stance and make a joke out of the entire discussion. GB7 is quite versed in this tactic as well.
but stuckey your point does still remain, was just letting you know.
Green- Doesn’t Tampa have too many outfielders to begin with?
Looks like Johnny will come back on his hands and knees looking for a 1 million dollar contract. lol
stuckey-
i’m going to continue believing that the more a player like jeter plays the more he knows about baseball.
you want one of those “Be vewy vewy quiet, I’m huntin Sabermetricians.” t -shirts that blake came up with ?
i think they’re going to be a big hit.
“i’m going to continue believing that the more a player like jeter plays the more he knows about baseball.”
Duh. But perhaps like David Cone, Jeter spends time at Baseball-Reference.com as well.
jennifer
February 3rd, 2010 at 9:53 pm
Green- Doesn’t Tampa have too many outfielders to begin with?
Looks like Johnny will come back on his hands and knees looking for a 1 million dollar contract. lol
————————————————————
I mentioned the Tampa team mainly because they were the other team recently linked to Damon. Not only are they over loaded with outfielders, but, they have Pat Burrell’s contract to deal with, and he’s excess. I never figured them to be in on Damon. Damon really has no place to go right now. Verlander’s contract in Detroit all but ends that plan, too.
Those teams interested in Damon and have arbitration hearings scheduled are really putting Damon in a bind.
Rich in NJ
Do you mean David Cone is trying to be a student of the entire game 24/7…. and Derek is trying to be the best player that he can be 24/7 ???
(subtracting sleeping & ‘other activities’)
Excellent comment.
“Do you mean David Cone is trying to be a student of the entire game 24/7…. and Derek is trying to be the best player that he can be 24/7 ???”
I don’t know about 24/7, but I don’t think playing precludes being a student of the game.
CD
February 3rd, 2010 at 8:32 pm
is this your busy season, Erica?
***********
Yes. And I am NOT enjoying it. LOL
Are we going to see Damon sitting outside yankee stadium with a paper cup?
pat February 3rd, 2010 at 9:28 pm
Verlander’s deal brings the Tigers to $127M for 18 players unless I’m reading this wrong.
http://spreadsheets.google.com…..utput=html
2009 payroll was $115M- so much for cutting costs.
Scott and Johnny must not be happy.
—
The Tigers have a ton of money coming off the payroll after this season. And I’d think locking up Verlander was high on the priority list.
jennifer
February 3rd, 2010 at 10:07 pm
Are we going to see Damon sitting outside yankee stadium with a paper cup?
**********
No. I would give him all of my money first
And I bought a Powerball ticket for tonight. $105 Million. Fingers crossed!!!
randy
I am not going to go back and read everything that was posted, but I totally agree with your position as I understand it.
Although I will say any tool available that can help make your team better, is and should be used. Which I am sure you agree with.
Stickey
You are a smart guy we get it, but give all the condescending crap a rest, ok. Brevity is your friend.
LGY
Numbers are very important, and can you help take you places, that experience may over look. But, I will take an old timer smoking a stogie over a geek with a computer every time.
good night all.
If you see a caveman hanging around the parking lots with a dirty rag and a spray bottle, washing car windshields, you’ll know that somebody is about to crack and take a million dollar contract.
“But, I will take an old timer smoking a stogie over a geek with a computer every time.”
As if old timers smoking stogies can’t be geeks.
” Apparently randy got tired of pulling arguments out of his…and so he is attempting to use comedic relief to cover up his ridiculous stance and make a joke out of the entire discussion. GB7 is quite versed in this tactic as well.”
gb7-
when did you learn first learn how to use this tactic ?
i found it worked well as far back as kindergarten.
little did i know it would work so well with the sabermetrically inclined.
i don’t know if you have noticed but they don’t seem to have much of a sense of humor.
they’re working on it though.
as a matter of fact, lets go yankees is studying humor right now. he’ll have the numbers crunched any moment on what makes something funny.
tarheel,
You are way off on everyone’s stance in this discussion.
steveoh
February 3rd, 2010 at 10:11 pm
pat February 3rd, 2010 at 9:28 pm
Verlander’s deal brings the Tigers to $127M for 18 players unless I’m reading this wrong.
http://spreadsheets.google.com…..utput=html
2009 payroll was $115M- so much for cutting costs.
Scott and Johnny must not be happy.
—
The Tigers have a ton of money coming off the payroll after this season. And I’d think locking up Verlander was high on the priority list.
————————————————————
All of that “money coming off of the books at the end of the year” isn’t helping them this year.
“i’m going to continue believing that the more a player like jeter plays the more he knows about baseball.”
Feel free. But again, this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with anything you and I have talked about.
“Do you mean David Cone is trying to be a student of the entire game 24/7…. and Derek is trying to be the best player that he can be 24/7 ???”
I don’t know about 24/7, but I don’t think playing precludes being a student of the game.
———————————————-
I feel strongly both ways. I learned more about the game by trying to teach, what I had done naturally, to others. As in what was it that I did and why don’t the kids understand it. One needs a “curious gene” and communication skills.
randy l.
February 3rd, 2010 at 10:16 pm
” Apparently randy got tired of pulling arguments out of his…and so he is attempting to use comedic relief to cover up his ridiculous stance and make a joke out of the entire discussion. GB7 is quite versed in this tactic as well.”
gb7-
when did you learn first learn how to use this tactic ?
i found it worked well as far back as kindergarten.
little did i know it would work so well with the sabermetrically inclined.
i don’t know if you have noticed but they don’t seem to have much of a sense of humor.
they’re working on it though.
as a matter of fact, lets go yankees is studying humor right now. he’ll have the numbers crunched any moment on what makes something funny.
————————————————————
I was born with this skill. It is not learned…only refined.
If you were as smart as I am, you’d agree with me. Since you don’t agree with me, how can I even talk to you?
Since you asked,
What Makes Something Funny:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....134016.htm
“I am not going to go back and read everything that was posted, but I totally agree with your position as I understand it.”
tarheel yank-
reading everything would be cruel and unusual punishment.
but thanks for the support.
Randy, did you read that link to MLB-Rumors, that the Giants now may be concerned about Lincecum’s ability to stay healthy since his MPH dropped 2 MOH in one year? Seems to be more than a coincidence with his arbitration hearing looming.
“I was born with this skill. It is not learned…only refined.”
practice makes perfect.
you might be even better at ticking people off than i am.
2 MOH
***2 MPH***
“If you were as smart as I am, you’d agree with me. Since you don’t agree with me, how can I even talk to you?”
——————–
I am glad you have finally admitted your problem. Now that you have, maybe when someone questions your judgment you will actually engage them in a discussion instead of calling them an idiot or troll. This is proof that it is never too late in life to mature and grow up.
randy l.
February 3rd, 2010 at 10:31 pm
“I was born with this skill. It is not learned…only refined.”
practice makes perfect.
you might be even better at ticking people off than i am
————————————————————
I’m honored just to be mentioned in your company.
lets go yankees
February 3rd, 2010 at 10:33 pm
“If you were as smart as I am, you’d agree with me. Since you don’t agree with me, how can I even talk to you?”
——————–
I am glad you have finally admitted your problem. Now that you have, maybe when someone questions your judgment you will actually engage them in a discussion instead of calling them an idiot or troll. This is proof that it is never too late in life to mature and grow up.
————————————————————
Your problem is that you honestly believe that people that don’t agree with you aren’t as intelligent as you and because they don’t accept your beliefs, they are your inferiors. That’s exactly why I called you arrogant and smug. Add obnoxious, pompous and a jerk.
Erica – always OPPC – Is done with Brian Cashman!
February 3rd, 2010 at 8:06 pm
steveoh
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:16 pm
Peter Schmuck? Ouch… I’d change my name, lol.
***************
I thought the same thing.
There would be no truer test of love than a man with that last name getting married and his future wife agreeing to take that name
*********************************************************
Erica -
What if his future bride were the sister of former Mets reliever J.J. Putz? Would it then be a test of true love, or just a lateral move?
When is the golf outing with GB7, randy , Pat M & SJ gonna happen?
This debate is getting far too personal. People need to step back.
“This is a major departure from prior theories and turns the whole received wisdom about both the mechanism and function of humour on its head. When we talk of pattern recognition, this does not include the recognition of deviation from a pattern, which is not a cognitive process rewarded by the faculty of humour. While this may seem counter-intuitive it is fundamental to an understanding of humour that such aberrations and deviations are discounted from the range of humorous causality.”
lets go yankees-
thanks for the link that the above passage is from.
now that’s almost funny.
gb7-
i think let’s go yankees is making progress.
Your problem is that you honestly believe that people that don’t agree with you aren’t as intelligent as you and because they don’t accept your beliefs, they are your inferiors. That’s exactly why I called you arrogant and smug. Add obnoxious, pompous and a jerk.
———————-
I thought we cleared up last night that you are the only person on here whose intelligence I have ever questioned.
And, I am far from the first person you have called obnoxious, pompous, jerk, idiot, etc. Other than me, you have resorted to name calling in reference to stuckey and Chip just in the past 2-3 days
Buddy Biancalana
February 3rd, 2010 at 10:41 pm
When is the golf outing with GB7, randy , Pat M & SJ gonna happen?
============================================================
Buddy, they have all crawfished out of the meeting on the links. They’re afraid to deal with my devaststing hook.
Buddy, this is what our match would look like. Guess the winning shot. That’s me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mnBmfimpNY
“When is the golf outing with GB7, randy , Pat M & SJ gonna happen?”
we’ve had a setback. sj44 has increased security in his gated community, and with pat m going through rehab for his knee, i think the new wall around the golf course is too high for him to scale it.
gb7 is working in getting a higher powered blunderbuss so we can blow a hole through the wall.
we’ll keep you posted.
“Other than me, you have resorted to name calling in reference to stuckey and Chip just in the past 2-3 days”
If you want an accurate count of the times GB7 has called someone an obnoxious jerk, or worse, you are really going to need some serious accounting chops – - and the return of nested threading.
GB7 is just like a good, ol’ old cigar-chomping, beer-bellied scout at the high school ball game: he doesn’t need numbers, he can spot someone with 5 tool jerk potential a mile away.
Dudes, they are just funnin’ with you all.
I’m a Six Sigma trained Quality Assurance Manager for a company that has been in business since 1801. Our products are sold by Cartier and Tiffany. I get statistics.
Baseball fans love statistics. No other sport lends itself to statistical analysis like baseball does.But I look at baseball statistics as something that augments the experience of being a fan. I often threw up my hands in disgust when Joe Girardi would look in his book and make pitching change after pitching change. At that point, I looked at statistics as overkill. There’s more to the game than numbers.
As someone who has been personally attacked for disagreeing with a stat head here, I have to tell you all of this bickering makes reading the blog painful at times. I didnt respond to his condescending comments and attacks because this isn’t the place. Some of you are sucking the air out of the room here. Spring Training is near and I hope we can back on topic, our beloved Yankees, soon.
Lets go Yanks:
“Do you mean David Cone is trying to be a student of the entire game 24/7…. and Derek is trying to be the best player that he can be 24/7 ???”
I don’t know about 24/7, but I don’t think playing precludes being a student of the game.
===================================
I was trying to say that Cone may be putting in more effort into studying all the aspects of the game (including Front Office issue) than Derek who is deeply concentrating on being a great ballplayer.
NOT saying Derek is getting stupider.
Always learning when you’re playing – just maybe not as much as someone who is not playing (Cone) who can devote much more time learning many more aspects of the game if he chooses.
This idea supports your thoughts on from your ‘playing days’where you indicated that you had to devote the majority of your time actually playing vs ’studying the game’.
UpState,
That was Rich in NJ’s comment, not me.
Ummm, just one more move to make before ST.
Anybody?
lets go yankees
February 3rd, 2010 at 11:06 pm
UpState,
That was Rich in NJ’s comment, not me.
=======================
My bad…thought it was you that understood that is tough to “keep-up” studying the entire game while also actually playing all the time.
Cone has more time (retired) to study / learn; while Derek still has to devote most all his time & energies making HIMSELF a better player….
murphydog,
I know they are just messing with me, but I do not think that is any excuse to act like a tough guy and resort to calling people idiots.
This is an anonymous internet board. If you are someone that needs to call people names to make yourself feel better, then it is time to grow up.
It is only made worse by the fact that said person is 2-3 times older then many of the people on here.
Blunderbuss? Gonna have to use the internets to define it’s meaning.
“Ummm, just one more move to make before ST.
Anybody?”
i’d like to trade stuckey and let’s go yankees to another yankee blog for posters to be named later.
lets go yankees-
you should have heard the names gb7 used to call me call me when i was enlightening everyone on the blog about the talents of livan hernandez.
he wasn’t kidding either.
Harold Reynolds on MLB tonight said Jeter will get 3000 hits and will retire if/when asked to switch positions.
Buddy Biancalana
February 3rd, 2010 at 11:14 pm
Blunderbuss? Gonna have to use the internets to define it’s meaning.
————————————————————
A blunderbuss first showed up in the early 1600s in the US. Short of an early version of a shotgun. Muzzle loading, black powder, used shot, nails, rocks…flared barrel end (like a funnel). Pretty much phased out by the early 1800s. They also made pistols.
I bought a Austrian model a few years ago. Not sure that it was my smartest buy. Love it, but, expensive.
GB7-
Does it still work?
Buddy Biancalana
February 3rd, 2010 at 11:45 pm
GB7-
Does it still work?
————————————————————
Oh, yeah. Has a Hell of a kick, though. A couple of years ago, I used it on Thanksgiving in Michigan to go turkey hunting. Have to be pretty close, though to hit anything.
“I often threw up my hands in disgust when Joe Girardi would look in his book and make pitching change after pitching change. At that point, I looked at statistics as overkill.”
So you wanted Joe Girardi to guide his team to 114 wins and a championship a DIFFERENT way?
This is actually a illuminating point. When the result matters less than a personal preference.
pat
February 3rd, 2010 at 11:36 pm
Harold Reynolds on MLB tonight said Jeter will get 3000 hits and will retire if/when asked to switch positions.
————————————————————
Pat, I don’t think that the position switch will be that much of a deal. I believe that he wants to get his 3,000 hits as a pure shortstop. That’s never been done before. He has only about 15 hits as a DH or pinch hitter. As long as he plays to his standards, has fun and the Yankees win, I think he’ll play. Doubtful that he’d accept ever playing for another team, though.
“Harold Reynolds on MLB tonight said Jeter will get 3000 hits and will retire if/when asked to switch positions.”
What if he has to switch positions before he gets 3000 hits?
“What if he has to switch positions before he gets 3000 hits?”
His defense would have to fall of a cliff THIS year for that to happen, and even that might not make it likely.
He avoids injury and he’s got his 3000 in 15 and 1/2 months.
I guess since they let him play SS when his defense fell off of cliff from 2005-2007 they will probably let him do whatever he wants, but I think that’s wrong. No player is more important than the team.
Anyway, I think Reynolds is clueless. Jeter isn’t giving this up even if he had to Catch.
“I guess since they let him play SS when his defense fell off of cliff from 2005-2007 they will probably let him do whatever he wants, but I think that’s wrong. No player is more important than the team.”
Do you think Jeter cost them either play-off seeding or actual post-season success in any of those 3 years?
Or conversely, do you think a better option existed that would have given the Yankees superior overall production?
“Do you think Jeter cost them either play-off seeding or actual post-season success in any of those 3 years?”
There are too many variables to know, but his defense was often significantly below average.
“Or conversely, do you think a better option existed that would have given the Yankees superior overall production?”
If a decision was based on the merits, A-Rod should have played SS when he came here.
“Pat, I don’t think that the position switch will be that much of a deal. ”
I didn’t think it would be a deal breaker in anyway so I was surprised when Reynolds said that.
It may have just been speculation on his part but he’s friends with Derek so who knows what he knows or what message he is sending on his behalf.
Jeter should get to 3000 in 2011 so moving from SS before then seems impossible at this point.
“There are too many variables to know, but his defense was often significantly below average.”
No argument, that that’s still, as they say, only half the story.
“If a decision was based on the merits, A-Rod should have played SS when he came here.”
And Jeter at third you mean?
“And Jeter at third you mean?”
Yes. The larger point is that no decisions should be made on sentiment. For example, if Mo suffers a precipitous decline, would they still trot him out there in save situations? I would hope not. It wouldn’t be fair to him or the team.
“Yes. The larger point is that no decisions should be made on sentiment. For example, if Mo suffers a precipitous decline, would they still trot him out there in save situations? I would hope not. It wouldn’t be fair to him or the team.”
Bernie Williams was effectively shown the door. To a degree Matsui and Damon as well. They didn’t exact make it easy on Pettitte to come back last year.
Not seeing much indication the team is being run sentimentally.
I will add however that while declines should be considered, the more relevant question should be is there a better option.
“Bernie Williams was effectively shown the door.”
Bernie was my favorite player of this era, but he was allowed to embarrass himself in CF for a few seasons; Torre didn’t even give a Lofton a bona fide shot to be a better option. Also, Cash gave Bernie, in his own words, an extra year.
As I said, Alex was a better option at SS than Derek, although the added muscle mass and hip surgery have mooted that.
pat
February 4th, 2010 at 12:18 am
“Pat, I don’t think that the position switch will be that much of a deal. ”
I didn’t think it would be a deal breaker in anyway so I was surprised when Reynolds said that.
It may have just been speculation on his part but he’s friends with Derek so who knows what he knows or what message he is sending on his behalf.
Jeter should get to 3000 in 2011 so moving from SS before then seems impossible at this point.
————————————————————
In a couple of interviews on YES, he was asked about a position move (one with jones), he said that he’d have no problems with a move that helped the team. There aren’t any better options though. Even when Rodriguez came to the Yankees, the Yankee scouts thought that Rodriguez would be the better option as a third baseman because of added range, better hand/reflex and arm. I don’t see that this setup has cost the Yankees any titles during the 6 years. Lack of pitching was a bigger problem.
The pressure/fan reaction to Rodriguez was bad enough, moving to short would have made it worse. Not between Rodriguez and Jeter, but, because fans are so worried that Rodriguez was trying to steal Jeter’s thunder, and that’s been the issue all along. It wouldn’t have been any different if the new guy was Garciaparra.
God works in mysterious ways. He gave us Yankee fans an incompetent General Manger, but made up for it by giving him unlimited funds to bail himself out of his blunders
Just caught up on all the friendly banter that took place today and this evening…….Most entetaining to say the least……Ran into Greg Dobbs who I haven’t seen since last winter……Asked him about the World Series and his take on the Yanks…….We all believed we could beat them, but in our hearts we knew it was going to be an uphill battle…….On Jeter, there’s a mystical air about him…..Alex, is not human, Matsui,the reports were to pitch to him very carefully….Damon’s ab and dash to 3rd, unreal at bat, just knew he was going to get on & on the steal, there should have never been a throw….On Mariano Rivera, everytime Joe went to the mound late in the game, oh xxit, he never gives in…….He’s the best, even their guys in the pen just shake their heads in awe…….
Yes, God does work in mysterious ways. He makes butterflies, birds that sing, mountains and then screws it all up and makes trolls.
Pat M.
February 4th, 2010 at 1:16 am
Just caught up on all the friendly banter that took place today and this evening…….Most entetaining to say the least……Ran into Greg Dobbs who I haven’t seen since last winter……Asked him about the World Series and his take on the Yanks…….We all believed we could beat them, but in our hearts we knew it was going to be an uphill battle…….On Jeter, there’s a mystical air about him…..Alex, is not human, Matsui,the reports were to pitch to him very carefully….Damon’s ab and dash to 3rd, unreal at bat, just knew he was going to get on & on the steal, there should have never been a throw….On Mariano Rivera, everytime Joe went to the mound late in the game, oh xxit, he never gives in…….He’s the best, even their guys in the pen just shake their heads in awe…….
————————————————————
Sounds like a great conversation you had with Dobbs, Pat. NYY just had too many weapons for a team to deal with.
Just saw a clip on MLB of a slide around the catcher that your friend Rich Amaral made in 1885. Heck of a slide and quick thinking on his part. Just lucky that he didn’t get his hand mangled.
Rich Amaral made in 1995
GB, Richie tells this story and it’s one of his greatest memories form his playing days….Richie was a late bloomer and didn’t get to the bigs until he was 31 or so…..However when he made the bigs he did it with a big splash……On his first visit to Yankee Stadium he gets a hit makes the turn at 1st……Then he realizes he’s standing next to Don Mattingly, who welcomes him to the bigleagues, wishes him the best of luck and then calls for the ball…He tells Richie, someday you’ll be glad that you have this baseball, as it was his first hit in Yankee Stadium…..After the game he asks Donnie if he’d sign the ball….Mattingly not only signs it, he writes, to Richie, welcome to Yankee Stadium , best of luck…..Don Mattingly
I wish I knew a guy named schmuck.
I think Jeter will play SS two more years and then move to RF once Swishers contract is up.
I’ve said this all along. The Yankees should have 10 world championships in the last 10 years. What a loser of an organization. And you can bet they won’t win one for another 10 years….hopefully never!
Hey Boss Ton, Why don`t you tell us all how you really feel about the hatred that you have for the Yanks…Then tell us all why you would even bother to come to a Yankee blog to begin with!…I know speaking for myself I don`t read blogs about teams that I don`t like or care about, to me it`s a waste of time…You sound like you are maybe a frustrated Mets or Sox fan so tell us all bunky what makes you so unhappy with the Yanks mmmm?