Can Girardi find the right mix?
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Was doing some reading this afternoon and came upon a nice piece by good buddy Bob Klapisch, who wrote about Joe Girardi’s spring training opening address to the Yankees. Klap is right in that some of the best advice Joe Torre ever gave his teams came in these speeches, and I can remember talking to one rookie shortly after the speech one spring and the kid giving me the widest-eyed look you’d ever seen; it wasn’t because Torre was fired up (Torre was usually very understated, as you’d expect) but because of the difficulty of the message: Simple as Torre might have made filtering out the distractions sound, the notion that it had to be a point of emphasis on the first day of spring hammered home the idea that playing for the Yankees is something different.
We talk all the time about chemistry and, as I’ve said before, I’m of the belief that chemistry is much like a team’s manager – it gets too much credit when the team wins and too much blame when it loses. That said, in New York – especially on a team like the Yankees (and even more especially when George Steinbrenner was at his peak) – the vibe in the clubhouse matters. There’s too much pressure for it not to make a difference.
Many of you emailed after Melky Cabrera was traded to ask about how his departure would affect Robinson Cano, who was his best friend on the team. There were also questions about how Hideki Matsui’s departure would affect team chemistry since Matsui was an established veteran. In neither case did I think the player leaving would make all that much of a difference; Cano will miss Cabrera, but he’ll be fine and Matsui was a rock, to be sure, but not necessarily a vocal leader.
Johnny Damon, though, is a slightly different story. Assuming Damon does, in fact, sign elsewhere it will be interesting to see just how the clubhouse is affected. A few years ago, I would have said his departure could have caused a much bigger change; with CC Sabathia, A.J. Burnett and Nick Swisher now on the team, there are others who can provide the “light” element that the core four doesn’t necessarily offer. Damon was also a stand-up spokesman, someone who would not hesitate to speak about big-picture team issues on tough days – a role which is important because it allowed his teammates to avoid the stresses of the media on days when emotions were high. In a market like New York, that’s important.
Girardi (deservedly) got a lot of credit for improving his clubhouse tenor last year and it will be tested again this year. Without Damon, can he find the right balance again? As he tries to lead the Yankees to repeat, it may be one of the biggest challenges he’ll face.
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on Saturday, February 6th, 2010 at 6:32 pm by Sam Borden.
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Chad Jennings
Josh Thomson
I don’t think Damon’s voice will be missed as much as his bat in the #2 hole
I wonder how much team chemistry factored into Cashman’s thinking in valuing Damon over Matsui.
Nick: Good point. I think that the ability to play the field (the Yankees believe Matsui’s knees are done) was probably the first factor but I would imagine that Damon’s role within the clubhouse was certainly a factor (with the caveat that it wasn’t a negative for Matsui; he was absolutely a positive presence just not as big of one as Damon, IMO)
Sam are you speaking from your own worry and/or disappointment here?
I don’t mean to be so cavalier in my approach here but we’re talking the New York Yankees. The alpha and the omega is that if the Yankees felt Damon’s presence, in any way, shape, or form, was so instrumental to the Yankees winning – he’d be here.
Good Lord.
Good read. All three key members of the 2009 championship team will be missed in different ways. But others will fill the void.
Why isn’t more attention given to the anti-alex crowd? (torre, moose, and giambi)? And why did Jeter take all the heat? (that’s what a good captain does
) Did the anti-alex thing not really exist? Anyway, Alex himself changed and stopped doing some of the things that sucked the life out of the room at times, so it doesn’t really matter that certain people aren’t around anymore.
trisha-But that would mean that you believe that the Yankees NEVER make mistakes-and as much as I think they’ve made the right move in not signing Damon, the type of thinking “if they needed him, they’d have him” is innaccurate, because that would imply the Yankees always make the right move, every time, and that simply isn’t true.
Trisha: Absolutely this is opinion. I mean, I can’t predict the future
But my experience – and, it seems, Klapisch’s – was that Damon was a strong point in the clubhouse. A few years ago, it was larger than it was in 2009, and the additions of CC/Swisher/Burnett definitely make losing someone like Damon less of a chemistry issue. But I do think that Girardi will have to factor that in, as well as the natural changes that come with a team being defending champs as opposed to non-playoff caliber.
Running the clubhouse is an important part of any manager’s job. With the Yankees, it’s even more so.
Nick,
I saw your thoughts earlier, and it saddens me that Cash may have valued Hideki less than Damon. That’s lower than low? How low can you go?
After shoveling more than one foot of snow off the driveway and sidewalk, it’s nice to think of baseball!
Yanks are definatley ready to roll for 2010 and so are the Phillies. I think it’s a rematch World Series coming this fall. A Classic rivalry in the making!
M: No doubt Alex changed some this past year. A big part of that (if not the whole thing) was the steroids saga. Surely that was humbling/life-changing.
Mussina definitely had some mixed feelings about A-Rod. Same with Jeter. Giambi, I think, got a little bit more of a bad rap after the SI article came out but the bottom line is that the A-Rod of a few years back did a number of things that rubbed people the wrong way (both on the field and off it). Yes, it’s helpful from a chemistry standpoint that some of that ill-will is gone now but the most important change is the one in Alex himself.
m: may have? Is there another plausible interpretation of events?
It seems as though Girardi has built a culture of “team first” in the clubhouse. Alex echoed that in his interview with Kim last week on “Yankees Hot Stove”.
The players coming in have reputations as “good guys” and Johnson and Vasquez have played in NY before. I don’t think there will be any problems in the clubhouse.
Wait – check it out. I believe the Yankees make the right move, all the time, and I believe they especially made the right move this time. If the players don’t pan out, oh well. The Yankees have the best information there is, far more than you and I and the rest of us here all put together from nation to nation could ever hope to have. The organization can only do so much. It’s up to the player to produce. There is many a slip between the cup and the lip. For instance, injuries can intervene.
I think nothing pleases GM armchairs as much as being able to say I TOLD YOU SO! As if their knowledge was superior to the organization’s. I don’t buy it. It’s more than the organization throwing something at the wall and hoping it sticks. So I will always believe in the moves the organization makes. They do it with the closest there could be to perfect information. What happens with that move is always a question mark.
May I submit to you two of the most desired players in the recent past – Carl Pavano and Jose Contreras. The baseball world died to have both of them. You know the rest. Did the Yankees make a mistake? I think not. Things didn’t work out. That’s life.
Nick,
I’m not questioning you. So you can stop questioning me.
Sam,
You talk about some of the anti-ARod sentiment that was in the Yankees clubhouse (Mussina, Jeter, Giambi). What about Torre? Didn’t he contribute some to the clubhouse problems? Javy Vasquez said that he was not comfortable with Torre because he was not “one of the boys”.
Sorry, m, those question marks must have thrown me off.
trisha-If you really believe that it’s impossible for the Yankees to make mistakes, then there’s no argument.
The Yankee however are run by humans, so I don’t believe that to be true.
While I think that they made the right move regarding Damon, tof course they can make mistakes. Kevin Brown was a mistake. Pavano was a mistake (one good year slipped amidst years of mediocrity). And Kei Igawa was a ridiculous, boneheaded decision.
Is it possible to argue that Pavano and Johnson were not mistakes? Sure. But that would mean that you believe the Yankees to be infallible…and they’re not . They’re human. The most glaring proof of this is Kei Igawa.
Sam, I’m made of iron. I have the kind of faith that can move a mountain. If it’s Yankee, I don’t worry.
Add to that I have total faith in Girardi. I also see a lot of leaders in their own right, one of them being Tex. Damon may have been a presence in the clubhouse but his playing time was somewhat limited. The team gelled but it wasn’t only because there was one loosey goosey there.
Agree with Fran. This show is under control.
Yah. The first ? is supposed to be a period. And the last one is a rhetorical question.
Everything’s not about you. haha!
Fran: I was certainly as big a Torre supporter as anyone but he certainly did have some favorites (much as anyone would after so many years). His “circle of trust” was legitimate and I think much of that came from the constant turnover and every-game-is-the-end-of-the-world pressure that George put on the team during the early part of his tenure.
Did he contribute to the problems? I guess he did in the sense that everyone did. But I do think that, on balance, Torre did much more good than harm to the Yankees clubhouse situation. And, IMO, I’m not sure that anyone would have been able to do much better than he did with the cast of characters the Yankees had in the last few years of the Torre Era. Let’s be honest: There were some real gems in there during those seasons
I think many are underestimating Nick Johnson’s ability to break the tension in a locker room with his spot on D’Onofrio impersonation in Full Metal Jacket.
“Seven-Six-Two millimeter….Full…Metal…Jacket”
I think he can also do Brando in Apocalypse Now.
“Are you an assassin?”
http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.....DeVvzl.jpg
m, I’ll try not to fall for the trick of responding to a post that starts with “Nick,” again?
Wait, I guess I just think it’s far too easy for fans to become disgruntled and point fingers when things don’t go their way. I disagree with you again. Those players were not mistakes because the Yankees did a poor job of scouting. If that were the case, the Yankees would have been the only players and that was hardly the case. Pavano and Contreras were both courted heavily. Neither worked out. That doesn’t move me. The day the average fan becomes the arbiter of what was a good move and what wasn’t a good move is the day I stop following the game. Unless you’re (meaning the fan) prepared to give a thesis on why a move was the wrong one, I don’t bother listening.
I guess I’m saying the weakest excuse in the book that any fan can make is that an organization made the wrong move based solely on the fact that the player didn’t produce.
JMO
Let’s be honest: There were some real gems in there during those seasons
********************
Sam,
Can you name names?
Or is it the players we probably already know about.
Nick,
I was agreeing with your original statements. And then you came back at me with a “could it be anything else?”.
The point is I was agreeing with you all along. Just was saying it was sad. I guess Cash had more faith in Damon’s calves than Hideki’s knees.
Anyway, I think (and hope) Hideki will be fine. I’m glad that he’s moved on successfully.
Sam I have to agree with Fran and Torre’s favorites. That could turn any clubhouse upside down. It appears to me that at this point, Girardi doesn’t play favorites. I think he must be northern as opposed to southern italian!
Case in point was his decision to have Molina catch AJ. You know that he and Jorge are very close. That was a baseball decision. JMO but I could see Torre have gone with his favorite every time. Anyway, it’s all good. That was then, this was now.
(And I will never forgive Torre for talking about Kevin Brown the way he did in that book. Just mean.) JMO, of course.
That should have read “I have to agree with Fran ON Torre’s favorites.”
You know, more than one team can make mistakes.
Kei Igawa is the definition of “boneheaded, ridiculous mistake”.
But you’re comment was, basically, “If the Damon could help the Yankees they’d have him.”
I like that the Yanks didn’t get him, like I said, but that doesn’t mean the move was necessarily the correct one. It’s okay to have the opinion “I wouldn’t have made that move”, because the Yankees are not ALWAYS right. They’re human, too.
So if Damon had accepted 2yrs 14 million that would not have been a Yankee mistake?
Bad grammar. You’re should be your.
As we all Celebrate black history month I wanted to share this with every one.
Enjoy Go YANKEES
http://yankeesvoice.blogspot.c.....ry-in.html
Can’t forget how great of a clubhouse guy Granderson is.
And Igawa is the definition of “boneheaded, ridiculous mistake” why Wait?
I am asking Wait her answer to this question. I know Igawa isn’t a forum favorite.
Thank you.
Ah, I see. Bad communication. Sorry about that.
I agree, Hideki will be fine. He was smart and got his deal when the getting was good. And when he’s done with playing, his legacy is in pinstripes.
I think it’s slightly sadder for Damon. He’s the one the team preferred but he screwed it up.
Fran: Pretty much guaranteed that your guesses are probably right.
Trisha: I respect your optimism!
trisha-Because every scout almost universally disliked Igawa, because verybody who actually saw him pitch knew he was terrible, and because he wasn’t even on the radar of e=any other team but the Yankees.
The Yankees are human. THEY MAKE MISTAKES. NOBODY’S PERFECT.
Wait, I’d appreciate you linking to the articles that talk about scouts disliking Igawa, and I’d also like to know your knowledge of Igawa’s history in Japanese baseball. If you don’t know it, feel free to say you don’t know it.
“I have to agree with Fran ON Torre’s favorites.”
************************
Trisha,
We think alike. Now that’s a surprise
Wait, who decides if a move is the correct one? You? If not, then who? How is it decided whether or not a move is the correct one? Do you know?
Or maybe it’s sadder because the Yanks might have re-signed Matsui if they’d known for sure that Damon wasn’t an option at the price they chose. In which case Damon screwed it up all the way around?
I wonder if they would have preferred Matsui at what he would have cost to what they’re paying Nick Johnson.
I read the Yankee years.
Igawa was fine in Japanese baseball. I’ll look it up in a second. But SCOUTS HATED HIM.
THIS IS A FACT.
“The Yankees are human. THEY MAKE MISTAKES. NOBODY’S PERFECT.”
True, true, true.
All right, if there’s no way to decide if a move is the correct one, then nobody, in human history, ever made a mistake, because everything they did seemed good at the time.
Fran –
Sam, I don’t know how to do it any other way. I always say that I was born without the worry gene. That and I am wise enough to know that the Yankees are far smarter than I when it comes to baseball decisions! That is why I don’t bother second guessing once a decision has been made. Some of my favorite players have been shown the door. I miss them but immediately decide that the Yankees obviously had better information than I.
I think many are underestimating Igawa’s ability to quell a clubhouse rift by retelling the story of how the Yankees added 194$ to the 26,000,000$ posting fee they paid for him in an apparent homage to his league leading strikeout total.
“But SCOUTS HATED HIM.
THIS IS A FACT.”
You don’t have to shout. Just show me the articles.
Thank you.
Let’s talk about something else, shall we?
Let’s play GTFS.
Would the Yankees invade Russia in the winter?
That would be a mistake.
Where’s Erica? Acryonyms are like catnip for her.
“Would the Yankees invade Russia in the winter?
That would be a mistake.”
Except if they did it, darn it, I bet they’d be successful!
“Let’s play GTFS.”
What is GTFS?
m,
What is GTFS?
Damon was 1/25th of the team and although a vocal leader, there will be somebody else to assume that role. With a year under his belt and feeling completely settled, Mark Teixeira is a good candidate to deal with the media and has the respect of his teammates at the same time.
By the way Wait, the reason I am asking for articles is because it’s something I had never heard. If it’s fact, that’s one thing; if it’s nothing more than heresay, well it’s not allowable in baseball court!
Guess The Favorite Sinatra.
I’m going with Francis Albert.
Guess the Fifth Starter!
Guess Trisha’s Final Statement.
IMO, I think some of the media guys are overstating Damon’s importance in the clubhouse because of his willingness to talk to the media. Who’s to say Granderson doesn’t take Damon’s place in that regard?
Igawa is a AAA pitcher making a ton of money. Bad signing by the Yankees.
Agree with Rick. Tex already took on a lot of that. And he took to the talk show circuit quite well. I wonder if he always wanted to be a Yankee (captain?).
Quoted directly from the Yankee Years (Written by Verducci):
“Even before the Yankees were announced as having…the winning bid, an AL GM…said, “He’d better stay out of the AL.”
“The Yankees fell in love with Igawa, valuing him higher than anybody else.
“How was it possible they could bid nearly the same amount (as Matsuzaka) for Igawa who, though a strikeout champion in Japan, gave up too many home runs and walks, and rarely broke 90 MPH with his fastball?”
BTW, it also says that at the time Matsuzaska was almost universally regarded, by everybody, as being one of the best pitchers in the world.
m,
I thought is was Guess the Final Score but I couldn’t figure out of what!
I think that the 5th starter will be Phil Hughes. I think that Joba thrives in the bullpen and I see Joba as the bridge to and replacement for Mo should he ever retire.
Granderson will be very good on the field and in the clubhouse.
Not for nothin’ but I decided to do a google on scouts disliking igawa, to see if I could find something for myself. This is the first article I came upon. I did read up on his baseball experience in Japan and that’s why I at least understood the Yankees thinking he could succeed. According to this article, it appears that the Yankees weren’t the only team scouting him.
“Because every scout almost universally disliked Igawa, because verybody who actually saw him pitch knew he was terrible, and because he wasn’t even on the radar of e=any other team but the Yankees.”
Wait, incorrect.
http://prospectinsider.wordpre.....igawa-lhp/
Rose: Good point about Granderson. I left him out of the original post but all things I’ve heard about him as a person are positive.
Guess The Favorite Sauce? Teriyaki.
On that note, I’m going to work on some recipes for tomorrow’s Super Bowl menu with Mrs. Borden. Hope everyone has a great night.
No, not really. Nobody valued him NEARLY as much as the Yankees. Not even close.
Fran,
We could play that. I’ve heard a lot of 35-31 kind of scores.
Geaux Saints!
Agree with you a lot of what you wrote. Phil’s always had strong showings in ST, so I hope that trend continues. Hopefully he and Damon have been texting. j/k!
Yeah, quoting from “The Yankee Years” definitely convinces me of the veracity of the statement.
What a riot.
a correct move is if the yankees are satisfied with a contract
they are not satisfied with the igawa contract,pavano
they are happy with damons contract that just ended
he earned it
igawa,pavano did not
i believe it was pag’s the old yankees 3rd baseman that pushed igawa on the yankees
I don’t know what to say. To you, the Yankees are like the Pope: infallible. They’re not an organization run by humans, but gods who will always make the correct move, every time. Gotcha.
How can anybody possibly believe that? It’s ridiculous, to be totally honest. There, I said it. Sorry.
So, I can only quote from the publications you okay now? Gotcha.
I suspect that a player with the enthusiasm of Nick Swisher would not have been a fit in a Torre clubhouse.
Wait till we do it all over Again
February 6th, 2010 at 6:53 pm
trisha-If you really believe that it’s impossible for the Yankees to make mistakes, then there’s no argument.
The Yankee however are run by humans, so I don’t believe that to be true.
While I think that they made the right move regarding Damon, tof course they can make mistakes. Kevin Brown was a mistake. Pavano was a mistake (one good year slipped amidst years of mediocrity). And Kei Igawa was a ridiculous, boneheaded decision.
Is it possible to argue that Pavano and Johnson were not mistakes? Sure. But that would mean that you believe the Yankees to be infallible…and they’re not . They’re human. The most glaring proof of this is Kei Igawa.
———————————————————–Carl Pavano was sought after by every major ML team including the Yankees.
Kei Igawa was considered as one of the top Japaneese pitchers at the time he was courted.
By the way. Did Boston make a mistake with Dice-K?
“No, not really. Nobody valued him NEARLY as much as the Yankees. Not even close.”
Which is quite different from your original statement, that he wasn’t on anybody else’s radar.
Didn’t the Mets have the second highest bid? Goes to show you the intellectuality at that time.
“Kei Igawa was considered as one of the top Japaneese pitchers at the time he was courted.”
Thank you.
m,
I also think the Super Bowl will be high scoring. I would like to see the Saints win.
All right. I add this at the end. He was on nobody else’s radar for anywhere even remotely close to that price.
Did Boston mess up with Dice-k? Good question. Possibly. TBut they were trying to outbid the Yankees. Other teams were in that same “ballpark” of money.
So, DeSaint says something, it’s believed with nothing to back it up, but I need sources, and when I produce one, it’s ridiculed?
“So, I can only quote from the publications you okay now? Gotcha.”
Take your time. I’m still waiting for you to back up your statements as opposed to baiting and switching with an entirely different premise. So far I’ve seen nothing that backs up anything you’ve said.
Wait-
That’s not true. Other teams besides the Yankees bid on Igawa, for one. In hindsight Igawa was the worst kind of signing. But at the time, I did a lot of listening to XM radio and he was seen as a decent talent coming from Japan. He was not a slop over there. it did not work out, and it did not work out in the worst way. Oh, well.
Granderson cannot be expected to pick up the slack where Damon left off as far as the media goes. He’s too new. Perhaps as time goes on and he contributes more to the team. I do believe Granderson will be accessible, as Johnny was, but I don’t expect Granderson to make statements regarding the team, as Johnny did at times.
Johnny will be missed by the media because he was the one who was always there, always willing to talk. Don’t really know who will be as accessible in as meaningful a way. I’m not sure it really matters. There are enough guys they can talk to, and many who will at least be available when they’ve played a part in a win/loss. But ARod’s not one of them, thank heavens!
Cashman did value Damon more than Matsui and I believe it had everything to do with Cashman’s belief that of the two, only Damon could be counted on to play the field. I think it’s a fair reading of the situation, and doesn’t necessarily reflect on his personal feelings about Matsui. I don’t think it was with a light heart that the Yankees said goodbye to Hideki, but GMs have to make difficult decisions. Perhaps if Granderson was not made available, we’d be looking at both Matsui and Damon in pinstripes in April, but it’s not so.
I think if they did not sincerely want Damon to re-up they wouldn’t have offered the initial contract for 2 years. I think they knew the money was lower than ideal, but they knew the 2 years was important to Johnny. It was a sincere offer, but they offered they best offer first. Johnny didn’t take it. And we move on.
Speaking of Pavano I think that this may have already been brought up but I see that his former girlfriend (the one who was in the car when he had the accident and broke his rib)is in the final 4 of “The Bachelor”.
“So, DeSaint says something, it’s believed with nothing to back it up, but I need sources, and when I produce one, it’s ridiculed?”
Are you being serious here? You’re proving you knew nothing about Igawa whatsoever. I posted an article already. I’m rather amazed you didn’t know that Igawa was one of Japan’s top pitchers. That’s why I asked what you were using as your premise for saying the Yankees getting Igawa was boneheaded and ridiculous.
Oh my gosh. My last post I had to revise 2 times. First, the word a**e**ment. Okay, I realized that and fine.
Then I revised and tried to post and got stuck in the filters 2 more times. The word? It was pas*es. Unbelievable. Sam, that has to be fixed. It’s ridiculous when perfectly legitimate and perfectly non-inflammatory words get stuck in the filter.
you don’t know it was a correct move before you make it or as you are making it but pavano sitting on the bench for 4 years was not a correct move & i guarantee cashman would agree
Doreen-I’m also drawing from my memories of the singing. The consensus was that he was, at best, a fourth starter. Even the good scouting reports I read of him said that.
That much money for a fourth starter is ludicrous.
@Nick in SF -
I do believe if they realized Damon was going to “pull a Damon,” they surely would have high-tailed it to woo Matsui.
ass
Funny huh?
Bronx Jeers –
Is that not ridiculous!!!!
trisha-I said he was considered a top JPANESE pitcher. However he was at best considered a fourth starter.
Are you really being serious when you say you don’t think the signing of a pitcher who was considered, at best, a fourth starter, for WAY, way more money than anybody else bid, was a good move?
Th book was written by Verducci. I don’t see why opinions on the Igawa signing are ridiculous.
“In hindsight Igawa was the worst kind of signing. But at the time, I did a lot of listening to XM radio and he was seen as a decent talent coming from Japan. He was not a slop over there. it did not work out, and it did not work out in the worst way. Oh, well.”
Doreen that is my point exactly. To call something “boneheaded and ridiculous” just because it didn’t work out well is the easy way out. Igawa was very well regarded when he played in Japan and he was scouted by quite a few of the teams.
Wave -
I understood that he would be a fifth starter. And yes, overall the money was high. But the salary part of it was not very high if he worked out. I mean, a lefty strikeout guy in Yankee Stadium. I can see why they took the chance.
Let’s remember that the Yankees fired the scout that recommended the Igawa signing and have change their evaluation process when it comes to such international signings which is why Billy Eppler along Bill Livesey were in Japan within the past year to evaluate such players.
The Yankees obviously made a mistake with Igawa and are not interested in repeating such a mistake again. By the way, the word is that nobody of any front office importance, talked with Verducci about the book other than Torre.
m
February 6th, 2010 at 7:28 pm
Where’s Erica? Acryonyms are like catnip for her.
*********
They really are. I got giggly…
I may be a dork
Nick in SF
February 6th, 2010 at 7:30 pm
Guess The Favorite Sinatra.
I’m going with Francis Albert.
***********
I once won $700 playing Frank Sinatra slot machines. That was a good night
m -
Would that be 31-24 Saints? Or am I off?
Okay, the Igawa thing is going nowhere. Let’s go back to the start.
Do you really believe that theYankees make no mistakes?
This is actually impossible. Human beings cannot make no mistakes, and the Yankees are run by humans. If you argue this, we’ve moved into philosophy, and that’s when I go.
crawdaddy-Taking a page from trisha’s book…where did you hear that he talked to no scouts?
Doreen,
Yeah I had that happen to me just yesterday.
I wrote this real long post during the Yankee Stadium discussion and it took me quite some time to figure out why I couldn’t get it past the filter.
Of course it was that a***esment word.
Watch now I’ll get banned.
“The Yankees obviously made a mistake with Igawa and are not interested in repeating such a mistake again.”
OF COURSE.
The Yankees are doing a great job. They’ve assembled a great team. The make the right moves-most of the time.
But they’re not perfect. I’m sorry, nobody is.
At least the Red Sox got some good use out of Dice-K.
Igawa gave the Yankees nothing.
I think the Yankees will get along just fine without Damon, lol
Wait,
I understand your point, but respectfully disagree.
When the Dice-K/Igawa saga was playing out, it was like the arms race between the superpowers – Russia and the good ole USA.
The posting process is a secret process. No one knows what the other teams are bidding. Both pitchers had much success in their respective leagues in Japan. Dice-K was more polished, but Igawa was younger and is a lefty. We all know how important lefties are valued. The thought was (IMO), here’s a guy whom the league has never seen, who strikes out batters, who has a swagger about him, and may be more affordable than Dice-K. That’s a legit argument.
I’ll say it here: I wanted Igawa to be successful. I saw glimpses of a strikeout pitcher in a couple of his outings that reminded me of (and I’m going to get mucho flack here) Louisiana Lighning. There, I said it.
But for whatever reason – size of balls (baseballs), mental fortitude, his shades, whatever, it didn’t work out. Part of me would like to see it happen, but it ain’t happening. Did the organization get burned? Sure. But so does every team that invests in a player, who underperforms or becomes chronically injured: Mark Prior, Nomar, Pavano, Eric Bedard, Ben Sheets, Barry Zito, the list goes on and on.
Rose
February 6th, 2010 at 7:57 pm
At least the Red Sox got some good use out of Dice-K.
Igawa gave the Yankees nothing.
***************
I dare to argue. He gave us some excellent joke punchlines
“Granderson cannot be expected to pick up the slack where Damon left off as far as the media goes. He’s too new. Perhaps as time goes on and he contributes more to the team. I do believe Granderson will be accessible, as Johnny was, but I don’t expect Granderson to make statements regarding the team, as Johnny did at times.”
Again, such a role with the media is more important to them than the team chemisty itself. Furthermore, I don’t buy this new to the team stuff. Damon was just as talkative his first year with the Yankees as he was in his last year. Even Tex was a consistent spokesman to the media in his first year as well as Swisher.
Something tells me, somebody will fill that media role, but again, I think it’s overstated in the grand scheme of clubhouse chemistry.
“Th book was written by Verducci. I don’t see why opinions on the Igawa signing are ridiculous.”
They’re not. But the statements you used had nothing to do with what you used as your reasons. I’m still waiting to read about all the scouts who disliked him as well as why it was a “boneheaded and ridiculous move.”
The Yankees can well afford anybody they want. If Igawa pitched well for the Yankees, you’d be swooning at his feet.
If you had shown that Igawa was a lousy pitcher in Japan who had never achieved a thing and then tried to call that a boneheaded and ridiculous move, I’d certainly have a lot more respect for that.
DeSaint-That’s fair enough. I will disagree, I think Igawa was a bad move.
I also stand by my statement that the Yankees are NOT perfect.
with igawa at the time the yankees did not wan’t too pay i think it was meche or someone like that 10 million a year so they got igawa for 5 million a year before the posting fee wich came out too 10 million a year anyways & he was a complete failure
You posted one scout Ive never heard of and might or might not be widely regarded, for all I know. Doesn’t tell much.
Verducci did the “nameless scouts” thing. Sorry, a lot of the writers do.
I said he’d done great in Japan, but he walked a ton, gave up tons of HR’s and was considered at best a foruth starter.
IF he had worked out well, it would’ve been a brilliant move.
IF the Yankees lost to the Phillies, they wouldn’t be WS champions.
The fct is, he didn’t work out, and the Yanks spent way too much on him.
Could they afford it? Yeah. But they were bidding on a fourth starter ceiling; they knew he might not even be that good. They took too big of a risk, spurred on by the Sox signing Dice-k, and it backfired immensely.
Doreen,
You would be off. The correct answer is Hughes over Joba. But hold on to that score, I think Sam will have a Super Bowl thread tomorrow.
a lot of scouts said they did not believe he was more than a 4th,5th starter at best & probably some who thought he would never make it
The Yankees are not perfect.
They didn’t hire Willie Randolph as manager.
And they’ll continue to make some mistakes. The difference with them unlike other teams is that they have the financial wherewithall to be able to withstand their mistakes.
“you don’t know it was a correct move before you make it or as you are making it”
Bru, but you know that you have the best scouts in the world and that other teams are scouting the same guy and you know the guy’s pedigree. And you know that the Yankees know a hell of a lot more than the fans who inhabit internet forums.
Nobody but God can know if a player is going to be injured during the span of his contract.
“I think the Yankees will get along just fine without Damon, lol”
And would you have said the Yankees will get along fine with Damon if he had signed that 2yr 14 million contract?
“crawdaddy-Taking a page from trisha’s book…where did you hear that he talked to no scouts?”
I march to the beat of my own drummer as I disagree with Trisha as much as I disagree with you.
Furthermore, this knowledge about Verducci not talking to the Yankee front office in writing this book has been discussed openly on the radio by NY media types that have spoken to the Yankee front office about the Torre book. If you don’t believe it then that’s your choice.
DeSaint-EXACTLY.
That’s all I was really arguing.
trisha said she believed the Yanks never made mistakes, and I was disagreeing completely.
Did the move seem good at the time? Yeah, but then every decision ever made in the history of humanity did. If we go by that logic, nobody has ever made a mistake.
I would have spit at that second year. And Damon wouldn’t be in the field full-time.
Kei Igawa will rise like the Phoenix, be called up midseason, win 15 games, and strike out 100 batters, with an ERA of 3.25.
And I’ll be the next mayor of NYC.
You know what causes chemistry? Winning. Give me a team of jerks who can play excellent baseball over a team of Reggie Willitses and Darin Erstads.
In addition, there’s plenty of examples of teams that hated each other that won. How about the early 70s A’s? 86 Mets? Maybe…gasp…the 77-78 Yankees?!
crawdaddy-I’m willing to believe it, so I’ll be serious now and I apologize for the insulting tone: Where exactly did you hear that, because he mentions scouts he talked too.
Bronx Jeers -
After my post didn’t go through, I immediately realized I used the word as*es*ment, but, the second word that didn’t go through, man, I’m flabbergasted!
Wait -
It was a mistake, the Igawa signing, but only in hindsight. I think you have to look at the whole situation. If it was only Igawa, I don’t think the Yankees would have felt they needed to outbid everyone. But they had missed on Daisuke. By a lot. Let’s not get into I think that the Red Sox were somehow told what to do, because the Mets outbit them on Daisuke as well. I think at the time the Yankees felt it would be extremely embarassing for the richest franchise in baseball to be outbid twice. And that is why I believe it to be a bad decision of the worst kind.
Still, if he could have worked out as a fifth starter – a lefty in YS who can strike guys out – it would have been worth the risk.
LOL Rose, what exactly is your point? I think Sam is overrating Damon’s impact on the clubhouse for one and for another, I hesitated at giving him 1 year, forget 2. Not everyone has to be weeping in their cereal because Damon isn’t back
“I think at the time the Yankees felt it would be extremely embarassing for the richest franchise in baseball to be outbid twice. And that is why I believe it to be a bad decision of the worst kind.”
EXACTLY.
From what I’ve read, Verducci sandbagged Moose. Didn’t know that a book was being written as he spoke.
Actually I shouldn’t have to post any articles since you were the one screaming that IT IS FACT! that the scouts hated him. Heck, you didn’t even know what Igawa did in Japan. You said you’d read up on it, or words to that effect.
You’re all over the board on this one, trying to prove something that you just can’t prove.
Until you show the skills of Nostradamus I think I’ll continue to trust the knowledge of the Yankee organization over you, no offense. To that end, your declarations about Igawa to me just strike as typical fan whining. As I said, far too easy for the disguntled fan to spit things out using the result as the ONLY benchmark.
You changed your story to match whatever you found in Verducchi’s article. Seriously, I have no respect for that modus operandi. I think you’re fine otherwise but I can’t take this argument too seriously. You’ve been far too scattered and convenient.
Adios muchacha.
Also, Rose, the Yankees have existed for many decades without Damon and they’ve done fine; I believe they will continue to thrive without Damon. The media loved Damon, so undoubtedly they will make his absence out to be some devastating loss. I’ve no doubt that the Yankees will miss him personally because he’s a good guy, but you know what? He wasn’t the only good guy in that clubhouse and they’ll be fine. Not that I ever really harp on it, but his calling out Phil still bothers me. I didn’t notice anyone calling HIM out when he was slumping.
Jeter and Alex appear to be fine to me, Sam. Moose had issues with Alex? LOL I wonder how many players had issues with Moose – he’s basically a good dude, but as persnickity as heck
crawdaddy –
I agree that having a go-to person is more important to the media than it is to the Yankees.
As far as Damon being as talkative in his first year, he had experience with the NY media in 2004. His tenure with the Red Sox prepared him for that. In general, it was unusual for a new guy to take on that role, and as for myself, I remember thinking, in his first year, that it was rather odd that he was doing so and I was not altogether comfortable with it, but I, as a singular person in this matter, don’t matter.
Doesn’t every team know more than the fans who inhabit internet forums?
“crawdaddy-I’m willing to believe it, so I’ll be serious now and I apologize for the insulting tone: Where exactly did you hear that, because he mentions scouts he talked too.”
I’m talking about Yankee front office personnel not some scout from other teams. I’ve heard Francesa, Kay and Mad Dog mentioned Verducci not talking to any Yankee front office personnel over the last year or so. Mad Dog mentioned it on his XM radio show within the past month after attending a Bobby Valentine charity event in Connecticut in which members of the Yankee front office were there.
http://riveraveblues.com/tag/kei-igawa/
I wonder if Igawa is invited to Spring Training to compete for that 5th slot?
Imagine Hughes, Joba, Gaudin, and Mitre beaten out by Igawa. Ok, I can imagine Mitre being beaten out by Igawa, but certainly not the rest. But what if. Imagine the headscratching that would happen if he was decisively better. I’d be LMAO.
But alas, it’s not likely. Only days to Pitchers and Catchers.
One more move for Cash to make before ST…
Winning is the #1 ingredient for team chemistry and they should be able to do plenty of that with the current roster. I would have liked to have Damon back for one more year but Granderson is a great clubhouse and media guy himself so he should be able to step in and shoulder some of that burden.
m -
Oh, darn.
In which case, I’m not playing GTFS.
ok bru. Maybe not.
trisha – OPPC forever – (new lucky picture from last day at the old Stadium) BRING ON THE GHOSTS!
February 6th, 2010 at 8:04 pm
“you don’t know it was a correct move before you make it or as you are making it”
Bru, but you know that you have the best scouts in the world and that other teams are scouting the same guy and you know the guy’s pedigree. And you know that the Yankees know a hell of a lot more than the fans who inhabit internet forums.
Nobody but God can know if a player is going to be injured during the span of his contract.
———————————————————-
if the yankees are happy with igawa great but i doubt it
i can care less.it’s not my money but every scout did not scout him against the major league
the yankees were concerned with the salary cap that year & did not wan’t too sign lilly for 10 millionthey ended up paying igawa more than what lilly would of cost
lilly 40 million
igawa i believe 47 million total with the posting fee
5 years/20 million plus 27 million posting fee
I’ll be honest-
I would rather play GWOSSBM
Betsy
Yankees will be fine without Damon and would have been fine with him also. Point being some fans now jump on Damon’s flaws but when he was playing for the Yankees not much was said.
It’s perfectly okay for you to trust the Yankee front office over me. But when you argue that other people’s opinions arent’ valid simply because the Yankees are really smart and always right, I disagree.
I did say, VERY early, that Igawa was a strikeout champion in Japan. He also gave up too many HR’s and walked people, and his ceiling was that of a fourth starter. The Yankees bid way too much money on him and are still eating his lousy contract. I’m sorry, I consider that a mistake. You don’t have to, but telling me I’m wrong because the Yankees are right is no arguement.
I would rather play GWOSSBM
******************
Erica,
I am obviously not getting the acronyms tonight. What is GWOSSBM?
Guess Which Opportunity Stupid Scott Boras Missed.
Fran (the original) and OPPC member
February 6th, 2010 at 8:29 pm
I would rather play GWOSSBM
******************
Erica,
I am obviously not getting the acronyms tonight. What is GWOSSBM?
***********************
Guess Whats on Sam’s Super Bowl Menu
Nick in SF
February 6th, 2010 at 8:31 pm
Guess Which Opportunity Stupid Scott Boras Missed.
****************
Not what I was thinking, but I would totally rock that game!
I actually underestimated Igawa’s ineptness when the Yanks signed him as I bet a friend that he wouldn’t finish the year with an ERA under 5.00.
Just wondering, but how does anyone know the Yankees bid a lot higher than anyone else for Igawa?
Losing bids are not disclosed.
Guess Which Old Soldier Said ‘Bite Me’.
Erica,
Never would have figured that one out!
let’s go-The Mets, I’m pretty sure.
Simon, you hit on one of the two biggest issues that Igawa has had. His inability to get used to the bigger, heavier and harder ML baseball over the Japanese baseball and the fact that he still pitches upstairs in a league that doesn’t allow such mistakes. He had the stuff to get away with it in Japan and even in the American minor leagues (The Japanese Majors and the American AAA minors are on about the same level).
John Cox did the scouting on him, and also recommended Matsui and Wang). Not sure, though that Igawa was the reason he was let go. I believe that the entire Far East scouting department has changed. As it turned out, it was a bad signing, but, then, so was JB Cox and a ton of others.
Fran (the original) and OPPC member
February 6th, 2010 at 8:33 pm
Erica,
Never would have figured that one out!
**********************
I’ll start….
I expect Sam to keep it classic and have some wings
pancakes
french fries
there is a reason teams don’t give minor leaguers huge contracts
they are not tested against major leaguers,the best players in the world
igawa was basically a minor league player
japan baseball is between AAA & the majors
would it be a mistake too give all minor leaguers big contracts before they are proven in the majors???
yes it would
you are always gambling
sometimes it works,sometimes it does not
it is about value & production & the yankees got neither from igawa
anytime you pay 47 million for a player & get no production & that player has & never had value it was a mistake
honest one maybe ???
they have no choice but too accept that mistake but a mistake nonetheless
Just wanted to thank most of you for the kind words regarding my guest post this morning. I did not know it was going up (and it was Sabbath anyways), so I was not around to discuss it. Those who had issues/questions, feel free to email me at the address provided at TYU, and I would be glad to further explore the issue. This site was where I began my internet fandom, and even though I spend most of my time at TYU, Lohud holds a fond place in my heart. I used to comment here under the name Mo, and CB and I have had many a fun conversation about stats. Thanks to Chad and Sam for the opportunity.
Other teams pretty much came out and said they were baffled by the Yanks bidding so much for Igawa.
Moshe-Check out the open thread on RAB. I’ll see you there.
Damon’s decision and Cashman’s stubborness will hurt the Yankees. Boras misread the market and left Damon to beg for a job. Cashman underestimated the power Damon has in the locker room. It’s a sad, sad parting of two “things” that need eachother.
there was a stat in the recent ESPN the Magazine stating over 40% of sports fans would sacrifice a year of their life if it meant a championship for their team.
that is just NUTS.
I do believe there are Yankee-haters out there more than willing to do such a Faustian deal if it meant the Yanks not winning a title.
(Sorry for the delay in response. Phone calls in between)
Now teams were baffled. Puh-lease. I just love all the stuff posted here that never has any sources. I won’t bother asking for your sources Wait as I’ve pretty much figured you do a stream of consciousness with your postings.
I actually think it’s funny that you would suggest any team would ever be baffled by what the Yankees are willing to pay. This gets better and better.
“Did the move seem good at the time? Yeah, but then every decision ever made in the history of humanity did. If we go by that logic, nobody has ever made a mistake.”
Actually that’s not the case at all. Lots of times decisions are made at the last minute with fingers crossed and hopes that things work out. Igawa was not one of those signings. He was heavily scouted, he was highly respected in Japan, and there were a lot of teams in the majors interested in him. This is directly in contrast to what you posted before. At least know your facts before you try to make an argument.
Bru –
Again, we get into who defines what is a mistake. (Obviously this stuff can start to get very esoteric.) Monday morning quarterbacking is the easiest and also the most superficial kind – not saying you are doing that. There are a lot of players the Yankees scouted who did not work out. Were they mistakes? If a mistake means that player doesn’t get the job done, then every player who fails is a mistake on the part of the organization and every one who succeeds is not?
I think you can see it isn’t quite that simple.
There are players who come to the Yankees highly recommended and don’t make the grade. They go to other teams and do well. Mistakes because they couldn’t do it in the Bronx?
I go back to Jose Contreras and Carl Pavano.
Only the most superficial fans cry “mistake” when a player doesn’t make the grade and use that as their sole criterion. I really don’t have time for that. You want to make an argument that there were signs from the beginning, nobody else would touch a player with a ten foot pole because that player had failed miserably, and the Yankees took the player and the player failed – you want to call that a mistake? I’ll listen. You want to call it a mistake when a highly regarded player, one who was scouted and desired by a large number of teams (using a hypothetical) fails as a Yankee and you say the Yankees were wrong to take the player just because you’re upset when something doesn’t go your way as a fan, then I see you as a joke of a fan.
By the way, I am not saying you did any of that, because you didn’t. I am giving you an example of how some fans automatically blame the organization whenever something doesn’t go their way.
“Damon’s decision and Cashman’s stubborness will hurt the Yankees. Boras misread the market and left Damon to beg for a job. Cashman underestimated the power Damon has in the locker room. It’s a sad, sad parting of two “things” that need eachother.”
Damon was a really good part of the Yankees and a good clubhouse guy. But he wasn’t the only one and he will be replaced by others who will take over that role.
I don’t think not having Damon in the clubhouse or on the team is going to matter much.
someone should put together all of Nick’s posts in book form.
I’d buy one.
Not only are they funny to begin with, but the non sequitur effect of them just sitting there on their own would add another dynamic.
Nick in SF…..Spent a not to lovely afternoon in Pauley Pavillion tooday ….
Johnny paycheck was not the most important person on the team, GIVE IT A REST!!
Yankees are a team without him too. First you question Cashman , now you question Joe. It’s going to be a long season with these nonsense threads.
Next thread has to be Hal’s turn, about not extending the budget!
The Yanks will survive Damon – it would have happened soon enough but one more year would have been good.
Does anyone else wonder if Trisha’s blog persona matches her actual persona? Like, you know, if someone offers their opinion, does she respond with a bizarre 5-minute diatribe about how wrong that person is, even if it’s about something that’s of minimal consequence?
The Torre/Verducci book was a hatchet job.
‘Would the Yankees invade Russia in the winter?’
Oh dear…
http://skew.dailyskew.com/uplo.....799318.jpg
“I suspect that a player with the enthusiasm of Nick Swisher would not have been a fit in a Torre clubhouse.”
I suspect you’re right. Giambi and Damon were Swisher before they came to NY and both toned it down to fit into what they thought was acceptable.
I’m a big believer that if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. Whether or not Alex changed one bit this year, ownership, management and key members of the team made an effort to be part of the solution. All inclusive, no sacred cows and willing to make the team theirs.
There was respect for but a subtle movement away from the “Dynasty Yankees” this year that allowed the clubhouse to exhale and start building their own legacy. The fact that CC, Tex and Alex did the talk show tour for Hope Week instead of Derek, Jorge and Mo was more than a coincidence IMO.
Randy Couture !!!!!
I’m guessing the Colts.
I have no dog in this fight, so I don’t care who wins, I just want to see an exciting game. The Saints are such a compelling story, but I really like Peyton Manning. I think the Colts win, but it is close.
Upstate, no dog in the fight either. Since I don’t have the Pats to root AGAINST, it’s all the same to me also.
Geaux Saints then let’s get on with Yankee baseball.
Unless my math is wrong, the Yankees have had 6 repeats, three 3-peats, one 4-peat, and one 5-peat.
The St. Louis Cardinals would have to win 17 straight World Championships (highly unlikely) just to break even with the Yankees while during that 17-year span the Yankees were not to win a championship, also highly unlikely.
Boston would need a 3-peat just to break even with St. Louis.
Never understood this clubhouse b.s. It really is the code word for writers and reporters for ’someone that will talk to us and give us front page stuff to print’
It can definately be said that its a managers job to find the right mix. I agree and then I side in disagreement more. I say this because the whole entire blog wasn’t even about Girardi within the team locker room mix. Yes, he may have a say so in the majority of decisions made. However, like this blog states, it was Damon who wasn’t afraid to voice what needed to be done in desperate times. Damon was a voice of reason and as many had forgotten a veteran as well. I personally believe someone will step up to the plate as he did and I truely feel that someone always will. I wouldn’t be suprised to see Jeter take that role. Afterall, he is the Yankee captain.
:Follow me on: http://yankeeography2512.blogspot.com/
It can definately be said that its a managers job to find the right mix. I agree and then I side in disagreement more. I say this because the whole entire blog wasn’t even about Girardi within the team locker room mix. Yes, he may have a say so in the majority of decisions made. However, like this blog states, it was Damon who wasn’t afraid to voice what needed to be done in desperate times. Damon was a voice of reason and as many had forgotten a veteran as well. I personally believe someone will step up to the plate as he did and I truely feel that someone always will. I wouldn’t be suprised to see Jeter take that role. Afterall, he is the Yankee captain.
:Follow me on: http://yankeeography2512.blogspot.com/