The trade that never happened
Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Feb 06, 2010 
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In general, I’m a very big believer in the present tense as it relates to sports. While I absolutely appreciate the concepts of “up-and-coming,” “upside” and “potential,” most of the time I look at all those terms and just think they’re nicer ways of saying “haven’t made it yet.”
In baseball (especially when it comes to the Yankees), I feel even more strongly about this. Do I think the Yankees should be a team of guns-for-hire? Mercenaries? A team that – to borrow a recently nonsensical quote – just goes out and signs the Cy Young award winner every year?
Hardly. But I do think that, when given a chance to pull the trigger on a deal for a high-level established major leaguer (especially a pitcher), it’s worth giving up a lot of “prospects” to make it happen. In other words, I would have absolutely made the deal for Johan Santana a few years back.
That trade (or non-trade, I suppose) may well go down as one of the best decisions that Brian Cashman made. Some folks will be revisionists and say they “knew all along” it was a bad idea but I’ll cop to my true thoughts at the time and take my lumps – I thought the Yankees should have pushed for Santana two years ago and, given the same set of circumstances now I’d probably say they should push for it again. As Moshe wrote this morning, I’ll always value a player who I know can play at the major-league level over someone who may be able to play at the major league level. There are too many can’t-miss prospects who do; too many guys who burn out before they ever make it big.
If you look now at the potential Santana deal the Yankees could have made, you’d have to call the Yankees winners overall; they probably wouldn’t have had the money to sign CC Sabathia and/or A.J. Burnett and/or Mark Teixeira if they’d given Santana an extension, for starters, and then there are the prospects. The Yankees used Ian Kennedy and Melky Cabrera in other trades (hello, Curtis Granderson and Javy Vazquez), while Jeff Marquez and Jhonny Nunez were in the Nick Swisher deal. Phil Hughes? Well, you know what’s happened to him.
Thing is, while Santana hasn’t been as successful for the Mets as they’d imagined (though he’s been pretty darn good), but who knows what he would have done for the Yankees. And who knows how the budgets of the past few years would have played out if he’d gotten an extension in the Bronx instead of in Queens. It’s easy to look at where everyone is right now and say the Yankees did the right thing, but maybe they’d have done even better over the past few years? And more importantly, what did you think they should have done at the time?
Given the exact same opportunity for the exact same star player and the exact same prospects (at that point in their careers) again, I still think I’d be in favor of going out and getting the best pitcher in baseball. That’s no knock on the Hughes of a few years ago (or any of the other kids in the deal); it’s more a testament to what I believe the value of an established superstar is and should be.
What would you do?
I was glad they didn’t do it, but at the time, I would have been happy if they did. I was 100% for the trade until Hughes was very briefly mentioned as a piece. Then I started having second thoughts.
What I really remember though, was not really liking the way the Twins were handling that. And I was more glad they didn’t make the trade because of that than anything else.
I never felt that the Twins were after Hughes or Kennedy. They wanted Lester of the Red Sox and were trying to leverage the Yankees possibly getting Santana as the way to pry Lester loose from Boston. The deal that Cashman and Epstein worked out to mutually pass on the offer actually helped Boston more than the Yankees, presuming the Sox would actually have ever considered letting Lester go.
The Twins traded Santana for a bunch of garbage prospects just so they didn’t have to trade him to the Yankees.
Also, wasn’t it the Twins who asked for other players once Cashman agreed to include Phil Hughes in the trade?
Bill Smith could have had a starting CF and a starting pitcher and blew it by being greedy.
So Sam would you have traded Montero (plus whatever else) for Halladay?
nice try Sam.. it would have been bad deal then and it would be now.
The Twins wanted WAY more than they were asking for from other teams so if the Yankees pulled the trigger they would have been suckers.
By the way how is that bum Gomez doing? I remember idiots in here telling me that the Twins made a good deal. HA
February 6th, 2010 at 12:18 pm
Bo knows
February 6th, 2010 at 12:05 pm
Of course you can blame them for the injury. He overthrew a curveball in April and ripped a hammy. He could just as easily have blown a shoulder. The kid was on an adrenaline high and wasn’t stretched out yet. One of the few times I agreed with PAB. It was criminal bringing him up.
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That is beyond ridiculous. He could just as easily done the same thing in Scranton. He sure looked like he was being wrecked while knocking down a hard hitting Ranger’s team, didn’t he? In case you had forgotten, the Yanks needed a pitcher. You know…those things that they have in the minors for emergencies.
Maybe the Yankees should have put Jeter in the minors at the start of 2003 to keep him from getting hurt, or Pettitte should have stayed in Tampa in 2002 and he would have gotten hurt in April.
Given the fragility of so many pitchers, I couldn’t disagree more.
The better course is to grow your own pitchers and trade for position players with any redundant prospects.
Erin
February 6th, 2010 at 11:28 am
Erica-if you’re there, I’m so sorry I didn’t see this last night!! I would go for it, but of course I have an addiction to all things pop culture. lol I did the longer term deal with EW, which I believe is cheaper overall. I think you deserve to treat yourself, especially since you’ve been working such long hours!
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Thank you Erin!!! LOL. I was anxiously awaiting your reply. I just renewed my tvguide for a year. I am leaning twoards doing the two year deal for EW. 3 is ultimate the best deal, but at least with the two year deal and I can feel I saved funny and put off having to think about it again for two years.
Meanwhile, it snowed just enough to allow me to work from home today. YAY!!!! Ironically, I surf the internet less when I work from home
From an earlier thread:
Carl
“Rich in NJ
Jeter Posada Mo Pettitte”
___
The reason I didn’t include them is because the post I responded to was criticizing Cash, and by the time he became GM, those guys were already established stars.
GB7 -
I’m with you re: Hughes hammie injury. It also occurred to me that if the injury was caused by his being “amped up” because he was throwing a no-hitter, well, what if it was one year later and the same scenario? No guarantee that one more year in SWB would have prevented him from getting amped up pitching a no hitter in his first MLB start no matter when it occurred.
Santana’s MPH is down and his home runs are up. He spent the last half of last year hurt.
I was against this trade in 2007. I thank the baseball universe we didn’t make it now.
Smith and the Twins knew that they couldn’t pay Santana’s price and the fan backlash for trading him to NYY or Boston would have been greater if they had to face him in the playoffs than getting little in return. Still, they may have gotten a much better deal if he hadn’t gotten greedy and started playing “Can You Top This”. Once Cashman told Smith to shove it, Boston had no interest in dealing, either. Since then, smith has gotten shafted in most trades…like Garza and Bartlett for Young.
Erica – always OPPC – Wishes Damon would fire Boras and COME HOME!
February 6th, 2010 at 12:26 pm
Thank you Erin!!! LOL. I was anxiously awaiting your reply. I just renewed my tvguide for a year. I am leaning twoards doing the two year deal for EW. 3 is ultimate the best deal, but at least with the two year deal and I can feel I saved funny and put off having to think about it again for two years.
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For the record, I have no idea why I said “I can feel I saved funny” when I typed this post.
Obviously, money would be the correct word.
Erica-I finally got your question about EW this morning. I responded in the last thread-sorry it took me so long to see it!!
Erica – always OPPC – Wishes Damon would fire Boras and COME HOME!
February 6th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
Erica – always OPPC – Wishes Damon would fire Boras and COME HOME!
February 6th, 2010 at 12:26 pm
Thank you Erin!!! LOL. I was anxiously awaiting your reply. I just renewed my tvguide for a year. I am leaning twoards doing the two year deal for EW. 3 is ultimate the best deal, but at least with the two year deal and I can feel I saved funny and put off having to think about it again for two years.
************
It’s really nice doing the two year deal, because like you said, you kind of forget about it! I do the same thing with TV Guide.
Erin
February 6th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
Erica-I finally got your question about EW this morning. I responded in the last thread-sorry it took me so long to see it!!
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I wrote you back at 12:26. Not my most coherent post ever, but I wrote you back
Erica – always OPPC – Wishes Damon would fire Boras and COME HOME!
February 6th, 2010 at 12:32 pm
Erin
February 6th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
Erica-I finally got your question about EW this morning. I responded in the last thread-sorry it took me so long to see it!!
*************
I wrote you back at 12:26. Not my most coherent post ever, but I wrote you back
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LOL-I just saw it. We’re a little out of sync this morning
Not this again…..
GB, I happen to completely disagree with you on Phil being brought up. I’m sorry, there’s no way a 21 year old who had never even faced a bases loaded situation in his entire career was ready for the big leagues. One great start against the Rangers doesn’t prove anything; even the worst pitchers have good games sometimes. The kid was a baby and not close to being ready (if he was, why did Cashman say that he wasn’t going to be in NY until September). I blame Cashman for not finding other options for their supposedly prized prospect.
Jeers, IMO, the Yankees at this point have chosen Joba over Phil. I am thrilled that the Santana trade never happened, but for Phil personally, I think he’d be better off in the Twins organization (where they know how to develop pitching).
I completely disagree with you, Sam, but I’m all talked out on this trade so I’ll just leave it there. The only thing I’ll say is that the 2008 Yankees were not a good team and Cy Young couldn’t have helped them, never mind Santana.
I always liked Santana and I believe reports of his demise are premature.
I think the Yanks would have made the playoffs in 2008 with Santana.
They got like 20 wins combined from their 3-4-5 starters that season.
Beyond that? I can’t say anything else would have happened the way it did.
I would have made the trade and probably would have cost the team a championship because of it.
Like I said, I like Santana. But I just love me some CC Sabathia.
Doreen – Ain’t it Just “Grand”?
February 6th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
GB7 -
I’m with you re: Hughes hammie injury. It also occurred to me that if the injury was caused by his being “amped up” because he was throwing a no-hitter, well, what if it was one year later and the same scenario? No guarantee that one more year in SWB would have prevented him from getting amped up pitching a no hitter in his first MLB start no matter when it occurred.
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The original injury wasn’t a near career ender, but, the second injury, when he turned his ankle while pushing himself to get back was probably the worse of the two injuries….stretching the ligaments in the ankle could have been far worse. It could just as easily happened in NY or in Spring training. Hard to believe that he’s still only 23 years old.
I was against the trade for 2 reasons. Santanna’s numbers had already started to decline- we have seen further evidence of decline since. I did not want to include Hughes.
Santanna would have still been a very good pitcher for the Yankees. He would not have felt the burden to carry the team like he does with the Mets. We may have even made the playoffs in 08 with him. But he would not be the dominant force he was in Mn
Some think we should have traded Hughes because of how he has done since. Had we traded him the Twins would have treated him differently and he likely would have done much better to date. He would not have been rushed to the majors and he would have remained a starter. Their major and minor league coaches have a good track record for developing young pitchers. More than likely Hughes would be a part of their rotation and Yankee fans would reget having traded him.
That is beyond ridiculous. He could just as easily done the same thing in Scranton. He sure looked like he was being wrecked while knocking down a hard hitting Ranger’s team, didn’t he? In case you had forgotten, the Yanks needed a pitcher. You know…those things that they have in the minors for emergencies.
Maybe the Yankees should have put Jeter in the minors at the start of 2003 to keep him from getting hurt, or Pettitte should have stayed in Tampa in 2002 and he would have gotten hurt in April.
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A little over the top, no?
Oh yeah, Hughes was mowing them down, doing great. Oops. You give your kids an opportunity to succeed in low pressure situations.
Yep and Hughes broke a rib working out with Clemens. Could have happened to anyone. The Joba rules were silly. Good guy Torre didn’t need no stinking rules, Win now.
And raising innings pitched by 30 is a silly rule. When you have a young thoroughbred you run him in the mile.
The thing is baseball is not the most progressive of sports. Once, you worked on flexibility, no one muscled up. Then everyone started pumping iron, working out. Now, they’re going back to flexibility. Lincecum is all about flexibility, result two Cy Youngs. Any team hired his dad as a coach?
Betsy – Romine wasn’t built in a day
February 6th, 2010 at 12:37 pm
Not this again…..
GB, I happen to completely disagree with you on Phil being brought up. I’m sorry, there’s no way a 21 year old who had never even faced a bases loaded situation in his entire career was ready for the big leagues. One great start against the Rangers doesn’t prove anything; even the worst pitchers have good games sometimes. The kid was a baby and not close to being ready (if he was, why did Cashman say that he wasn’t going to be in NY until September). I blame Cashman for not finding other options for their supposedly prized prospect.
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Never? You mean like 19 year old Dwight Gooden or 20 year old Rick Porcello?
Is it possible that had they made the Johan deal the Yankees would have still signed CC but chosen not to sign Burnett instead.
One of the main arguments against the deal was that Sabathia was available the next year. The Yankees signed two pitchers last offseason though so if santana would have replaced AJ instead of CC would that have any effect in peoples opinion of the non-deal?
The problem with criticizing the “non-deal” from the start was that Cash had a plan. The media wants to live and critique in the hear and now, but Cashman knew of the potential of the free agent market post-2008 season. Even when the NYY signed CC, there were those in the media who still criticized them for not trading for Santana. That’s ludicrous…to sign CC and still have Hughes and the other pieces was a no-brainer.
Its nice to see Cash develop a gameplan, short and long term, and stick to it.
Your lopsided reasoning didn’t factor in what the Yankees were asked to trade for Santana, and what the Twins accepted from the Mets. They wanted Phil, Melky, and top tiered prospects!
Rather than gut the farm and the active roster, Cashman (the one paid to make the decisions) waited and got rewarded for it with a WS, proving to ALL THE SECOND GUESSERS, he knew best!
By being patient and methodical, he acquired CC, AJ, and Tex, while still keeping Melky, Phil, and prospects.
“Is it possible that had they made the Johan deal the Yankees would have still signed CC but chosen not to sign Burnett instead.”
Maybe, but it’s unlikely that they would have given contracts to CC, Santana, and Teix, who I think was a must sign.
Bo knows
February 6th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
And raising innings pitched by 30 is a silly rule. When you have a young thoroughbred you run him in the mile.
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They don’t start thoroughbreds out by having them bust a mile. They work them into it…just like they work humans into distance running by starting them at half mile runs and increasing the load…unless of course, you’d prefer to see them break down at the half mile pole.
GB, Phil is not Dwight Gooden. How many pitchers are? What does Doc have to do with Phil? I have no idea if Doc or Porcello ever faced a bases loaded situation, but that’s not the point. Phil wasn’t ready and Cash said so. How else am I to interpret the statement that he wasn’t going to be seen in NY until at least September? IMO, Cash didn’t do a good job and he rushed his then prized prospect. As I said, I don’t blame the Yankees for Phil’s injury. I do think (though I’m glad he wasn’t traded and I’m glad the Santana deal didn’t go down) that he would have been personally (in terms of his development) better off with the Twins. I want to think he’ll be a starter next year, but I can’t even say that.
“Is it possible that had they made the Johan deal the Yankees would have still signed CC but chosen not to sign Burnett instead.”
Anythings possible but I don’t think that would be the case based on $$$.
AJ’s paid like a second tier ace.
CC and Johan are the highest paid ever.
At the time, I was against the Santana trade as long as the Red Sox were out of it as well. I didn’t want to give up Hughes or Chamberlain (Joba was coming off a rookie 0.38 ERA campaign and Hughes had just dazzled in the playoffs) and it was the first time in a long while that the Yankees actually had some nice pitching prospects of their own. I also did not want to see Melky go and force Damon to be the everyday centerfielder (this was before Gardner came onto the scene).
If getting Santana meant not signing Sabathia a year later, then I’m SO glad the Yankees didn’t make that trade. I don’t care if Santana would have made them a 95 win team in ’08 because they weren’t going to win the WS that year anyway, and they certainly would not have won it last year.
I was against the Santana trade at the time. One of Cashman’s best moves in the last several years has turned out to be a non-move.
“The Yankees signed two pitchers last offseason though so if santana would have replaced AJ instead of CC would that have any effect in peoples opinion of the non-deal?”
Not really, because Santana needed surgery last August so who knows if he could have even done what Burnett did in the playoffs (winning game 2 of the WS and pitching twice on short rest).
Rich, how much more would it have cost, AJ makes 16.5 million a year so it wouldn’t have been that much considering they were going all out last off season anyway. The non deal worked out for the best in the end but I was just wondering if Cc/johan may have been possible had things played out differently.
Btw, Santana had a 4.04 ERA outside of CitiField last year, and his strikeout rates have decreased pretty drastically considering the switch to the NL. He may still be a great pitcher but he is not nearly in the same class as he was with the Twins.
If the Yankees could have gotten the same deal the Mets got, then absolutely they should have traded for him. But the Twins were asking so much more from the Yankees and Brian Cashman isn’t stupid. He made the right choice.
Betsy – Romine wasn’t built in a day
February 6th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
GB, Phil is not Dwight Gooden. How many pitchers are? What does Doc have to do with Phil? I have no idea if Doc or Porcello ever faced a bases loaded situation, but that’s not the point. Phil wasn’t ready and Cash said so. How else am I to interpret the statement that he wasn’t going to be seen in NY until at least September? IMO, Cash didn’t do a good job and he rushed his then prized prospect. As I said, I don’t blame the Yankees for Phil’s injury. I do think (though I’m glad he wasn’t traded and I’m glad the Santana deal didn’t go down) that he would have been personally (in terms of his development) better off with the Twins. I want to think he’ll be a starter next year, but I can’t even say that.
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I’m pretty sure that when Cashman made that remark in March of 2007, he wasn’t expecting his rotation to hit the DL in April. And Gooden and Porcello are the point. Like Hughes, they were mature beyond their youth, physically and mentally. Hughes didn’t suffer an arm injury…he had two leg injuries.
They don’t start thoroughbreds out by having them bust a mile. They work them into it…just like they work humans into distance running by starting them at half mile runs and increasing the load…unless of course, you’d prefer to see them break down at the half mile pole.
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And I turn over my Ace, Sir.
Disclaimer: I’m no expert on the Yankee minor league system.
Statement: I like seeing our minor leaguers make it to the big team.
Fact: 1B, 2B, SS, 3B, LF/CF are locked up for at least 4 years.
Reality: Of the ‘available’ 2 OF positions, both will probably be filled by FA or Trade aquisitions for at least 4 years beginning 2011.
Fact: 2 of 5 Starting rotation slots atre locked up for at least 4 more years.
Reality: 1 more starting rotation slot is likely to be filled for another 4 years starting 2011 due to a FA pickup next offseason.
Reality: Due to the high price of quality starting pitching, the last 2 slots need to be filled by affordable pitchers who can contribute quality pitching.
The reality is that prospects can only look at Catcher, Utility infield, bullpen and outfield depth, due to the high price of quality pitching, and the investment made in the Yankee infield. That’s why Cash has stocked the system with arms and catchers.
From prior thread:
It appears to me that the Cashman ‘formula for success’ is 3 quality arms on long-term contracts at 1-2-3 in the rotation, 1 veteran arm on a 1 year contract at the #4, and a young arm at #5.
Can someone tell me when Hughes and Joba qualify for arbitration, and start qualifying contracts that may affect decision-making?
RS,
Well yea probably not but nobody knew Santana would get hurt at the time of the deal. It worked out for the best in the end but could have turned the other way pretty easily. It was a big risk by Cashman…had he not bagged CC this story would look a little different I think.
Bo knows
February 6th, 2010 at 1:01 pm
They don’t start thoroughbreds out by having them bust a mile. They work them into it…just like they work humans into distance running by starting them at half mile runs and increasing the load…unless of course, you’d prefer to see them break down at the half mile pole.
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And I turn over my Ace, Sir.
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You’d better look at that card again. It’s a joker.
I said NO! to the trade at the time- and I was rightttt!
GB, of course that’s true, but IMO, Cash should have found other options given that, no matter the state of the rotation, Phil was still not considered ready. The Mets considered Doc ready and the Tigers the same with Porcello. The Yankees did not think Phil was ready or else he would have been in their plans for 2007. I know that he didn’t suffer an arm injury – he’s lucky that he did not after he returned. I’m positive that his bad results in August were the result of Phil not trusting his legs.
SJ44 always is an interesting read. Whether you agree with him or not.
To me his most impressive post was that he had his nephew work with Yoga. All these inner core exercises are basically Yoga.
You want strong wrists – do fingertip pushups – and so on.
DaSaint007 I think that’s a pretty good summary.
The catching depth in the farm system is pretty insane.
1. Jesus Montero (AAA)
2. Austin Romine (AA)
3. J.R. Murphy (probably low A)
4. Gary Sanchez (GCL)
5. Kyle Higashioka (probably low A)
Just everybody and their mother here wanted Cashman to make that trade for Santana for Young Master Hughes….There was a few that were strongly dead against it though…..In fact Hughes was not the most popular guy here at The Lohud as recently as last off season….His bus ticket out of town was waiting for him at the ticket will call at the Port of Authority bus terminal……
Betsy, like any other good GM, whatever Cashman says for public consumption is not always organizational belief. How often does he ever show his hand, either in trades, FA signings or minor league call-ups? About never. I don’t consider that “lying”, just smart business. Why expose your hand if you don’t have to?
DaSaint007 I think that’s a pretty good summary.
The catching depth in the farm system is pretty insane.
1. Jesus Montero (AAA)
2. Austin Romine (AA)
3. J.R. Murphy (probably low A)
4. Gary Sanchez (GCL)
5. Kyle Higashioka (probably low A)
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You forgot Perkins the Aussie.
OF
1. Heathcott.
Pat M, that’s very true……..Plenty of people gave up on Phil, just a few of us held out hope. I’m keeping the faith, but it’s hard being patient – I just don’t know when he’ll ever get the chance to start again consistently.
GB, that’s true. In any case, I agree with you that the Yankees are not to blame for Phil’s injury – it was just bad luck. He could have done the same in AAA…..
the filter keeps blocking my post about cc saying last night that the door on johnny is not shut.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....GBcTlyDSiJ
fourth paragraph up from the end
I think the argument that we couldn’t have afforded CC is wide of the mark. We made a strong push to sign Halladay which would presumably have necessitated an extension at least as large as the one he signed with the Phillies (though what agent wouldn’t add a few million since it is the Yankees).
That deal would have been for a similar annual salary to Sanatana’s deal. We would still have been able to afford CC, and would have had a stronger negotiating position to possibly make a slightly lower offer to Burnett or pass on him completely.
Besides people are already penciling in either Lee or Mauer to the Yankees 2011 roster. We spend big, and that ain’t gonna change.
We can look at Santana’s injury and how bad the Mets are and say what a great decision it was to pass on the trade, but Santana has pitched well for the Mets and looks like he might be back to full health this coming season. Would anyone really not prefer CC and Santana to CC and Burnett?
The prospects we kept have made other great moves possible but none of them have really flourished into great players who would make trading them unthinkable (though Hughes may yet).
The last thing I would say is that we won in 2009 so it is easy to look at things as if this were the end of the story, a journey that led to a championship. But – if we’d had Santana in the rotation in 08 instead of Hughes/ Kennedy we would likely have made the playoffs then as well. With Santana, Muss, Pettitte we could have had a decent shot at the title then as well. Hindsight ain’t 20:20, it is still a guessing game.
Overall I am glad that we didn’t make the trade, but it isn’t as clear cut as some people seem to be suggesting.
“ust everybody and their mother here wanted Cashman to make that trade for Santana for Young Master Hughes
this is untrue. there was a big debate on here and i’d say there may have been slightly more who wanted to make the trade than those who were against it, but it was difinitly not ‘just about everybody’
many of us were on the right side…
azaz, johnny who?
Patrick
February 6th, 2010 at 1:10 pm
DaSaint007 I think that’s a pretty good summary.
The catching depth in the farm system is pretty insane.
1. Jesus Montero (AAA)
2. Austin Romine (AA)
3. J.R. Murphy (probably low A)
4. Gary Sanchez (GCL)
5. Kyle Higashioka (probably low A)
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There is one other young catcher from the 2009 draft that impressed after his promotion to Charleston, late in the season…Jeff Farnham.
http://www.baseball-reference......rnha001jef
“You forgot Perkins the Aussie.”
No I didn’t.
I seriously doubt that Cashman will make many trades for multiple big prospects in addition to big money.
Patrick
February 6th, 2010 at 1:20 pm
“You forgot Perkins the Aussie.”
No I didn’t.
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LOL. Cold Patrick. Just cold.
The known commodity is almost always the wiser move unless a high upside prospect has top brass convinced of good fortitude, talent and the demeanor to succeed as scheduled in the major leagues.
A pitcher is especially a delicate transaction given the risk of arm, elbow, or shoulder issues.
There’s only so many pitchers having perfect mechanics with Tom Seaver, and Nolan Ryan to name a few that can go through careers with little or no time on the DL.
I was against the trade for Santana at the time because I also felt that he had already had his BEST years and we would be giving up too much. How GREAT it turned out!
vinny-b,
I had to leave unexpectedly the other day and just saw your question now. I didn’t care much for County Stadium. I have to say, though, that it was when my kids were pretty young and I wasn’t able to watch the whole game without a lot of interruptions, so that may have colored my memories! Some of our group liked the food, but that’s never been my big thing. My daughter married a Brewers fan and they have been to Miller Field and really like it, but I’ve never been there.
I thought Tiger Stadium was really fun to watch a game in because you were always so close to the field. We could almost reach out and touch Winfield when we had right field seats one year! I miss that one, but nothing compared to Yankee Stadium. I hope I like the new one as much!
The catching depth in the farm system is pretty insane.
……………………
So true, GB 7.
No doubt there isn’t an organization in the game that can say the same. If in the next year other position players can develop, the Yankees will climb the ranks of teams with the best of farm systems minus the thoughts of Gammons and the hoots of ESPN.
What, Perfect Mechanics?
Wasn’t there a pitcher that the Yankees drafted, went on to sign with the Cubs, that had perfect mechanics. I forget his name.
DaSaint007
“Fact: 1B, 2B, SS, 3B, LF/CF are locked up for at least 4 years.
Reality: Of the ‘available’ 2 OF positions, both will probably be filled by FA or Trade aquisitions for at least 4 years beginning 2011.”
Granderson and Cano’s contracts could be moved if, hypothetically, they thought it was in their best interests to do so.
I cannot see Jeter and A-Rod being the SS/3B for the next four years. One of them is likely to be moved to another position.
So there is more flexibility than your post would suggest.
There’s no doubt that the non-trade worked out great for the Yankees with the benefit of retrospect. That doesn’t change though that it was a huge gamble at the time. No one could have known with any certainty that CC would sign with the Yankees. Suppose that someone with more of a bankroll than the Brewers had acquired CC at the 2008 trade deadline and worked out a long term agreement with him and remember all the rumors that he prefered a west coast team? There wasn’t anyone else of his calibur avaiable. Does anyone think the team would have won with Burnett & Lowe rather than CC & Burnett? Of course its preferable to giving up just cash for an ace stopper rather than cash and lots of prospects. Rigidity in that philosophy leads to an overreliance on the free agent market and its rare for a guy like CC to ever hit Free Agency in his prime. Does everyone really forget that the Yankees were signing two of the best available FA pitchers when they signed Pavano and Wright? Dominant ace pitching is the biggest differentiator in the playoffs and its what NY had been lacking since their last championships. There are so few true aces in the league that I don’t think you hesitate to pull the trigger if you have a need and one’s available. I would have done the Santana trade then and I still think the logic is correct even if the gamble paid off. How many people used the same argument for Hallyday. He’s not available now and Felix Hernandez, Josh Johnson and Justin Verlander aren’t going to be available for years now either. I don’t think that the Yankees should have traded Montero and Hughes/Joba for Hallyday — they don’t need an ace now and that’s too much to pay. But its clear that if they did want him, trading for him was the only way to get him.
It’s probably true that having Santana rather than Hughes in 2008 wouldn’t have made enough of a difference. However, that’s only true because of all of the injuries that the Yankees suffered through that year (Wang, Posada, Matsui, Jeter (hand injuries played through), and A-Rod (the hip injury that he played through but resulted in a very subpar 2nd half)) which no one could have predicted. A healthy team in 2008 – Hughes + Santana would have certainly been a playoff calibur team.
At the time I was PRAYING it didn’t happen. I compared it to being offered Greg Maddox for Bernie Williams and Mariano Rivera in 1995. A no brainer trade for some but I’m pretty sure they would not have won four Championships if that trade was made.
Catching depth is insane
________________________________
There’s a dark lining to that rosy cloud. They can only play one at a time. Our pitching is great too. Unfortunately most of them are on the injury reserve. Horne, Garcia, Betances, Fat Sanchez, Marshall etc. Position players – Well, we have two or three 2B.
“Fat Sanchez” is gone, isn’t he?
I believe red flags went up with Cashman when the Twins wouldn’t allow Santana to use his slider for the last month of the 2007 season. He showed he was healthy in his 1st year with the Mets but it caught up to him last year.
Sabathia is more durable than Santana and Girardi will not allow him to be overused like he was with Cleveland and Milwaukee.
The answer to the question of should you trade young players for established stars is simple. It is the same answer to almost any question and that is “It depends”. Sometimes the right move is a trade, sometimes it’s not.
People try to simplify life by saying it’s black or it’s white, it’s up or it’s down, it’s left or it’s right. Thinking people realize that life is more complicated than that. It is grey and if more people realized that than we would have a much better world.
I was against the Santana trade as opposed at the time. They were asking too much from the Yankees and while I was afraid he would join the Red Sox, I was thrilled he was going to the NL. But it’s too soon to say the deal was a success for the Yankees just yet.
“It depends”
You’re correct. If the pitcher is under 27, like Lincecum or Felix, I would be more likely to give up major prospects than for a 30+ pitcher, even one as good as a Halladay.
Matt
February 6th, 2010 at 1:30 pm
The catching depth in the farm system is pretty insane.
……………………
So true, GB 7.
No doubt there isn’t an organization in the game that can say the same. If in the next year other position players can develop, the Yankees will climb the ranks of teams with the best of farm systems minus the thoughts of Gammons and the hoots of ESPN.
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NYY is picking up the pace in all positional areas, though they’re still lagging a bit in the outfield, but, even there, the last two years have drastically improved. If you’re in the trenton area, go watch their young right fielder/1st baseman, Daniel brewer. very good outfield glove, speed and a really good bat. He’ll hit for average, but, the power could/should come around. Line drives all over the place and, he’s moving fast.
Melky Mesa has everything going for him except that he also has Alfonso Soriano’s plate discipline. I’ve only seen Neill Medchill in a couple of college games, but, what power. Deangelo Mack hopefuis the new version of Austin jackson.
Deangelo Mack ***hopefuly is*** the new version of Austin Jackson. I haven’t seen him play, so, I’m just going on numbers.
Sounds like CC is in the Erica camp: As long as nothing’s happened, anything is possible.
We got CC and AJ while keeping Joba Hughes and Montero. It would have taken at least two out of the last three to land Santana plus his extension.
If we’re doing what could’ve been, I’d take CC, AJ, Joba, Hughes and Montero over CC, Santana plus one of Joba/Hughes/Montero without batting an eye.
We may still be able to keep Joba, Hughes and Montero and sign Cliff Lee in 2011. The rotation would then be set for at least 3-4 years.
“But – if we’d had Santana in the rotation in 08 instead of Hughes/ Kennedy we would likely have made the playoffs then as well. With Santana, Muss, Pettitte we could have had a decent shot at the title then as well.”
Except Pettitte and Jeter were hurt at the end of last year, Posada and Matsui were on the DL, Arod was starting to feel the effects of his hip injury, and Rivera needed shoulder surgery immediately after the season (and it took him until late May to fully recover…imagine if he had done the procedure a month later because he had to pitch in the playoffs).
I guess what I’m trying to say if that even with Santana, that ’08 team had more holes and was so much more worn down and hurt at the end of the regular season than the 2009 team. I just don’t think they could have won a championship.
And without the chips to deal for Swisher, and no Melky, what would our OF have been in ’09? If it was Damon, Gardner, and Nady on Opening Day, we would have been absolutely screwed (in hindsight of course).
Rich in NJ:
Granderson and Cano’s contracts could be moved if, hypothetically, they thought it was in their best interests to do so.
I cannot see Jeter and A-Rod being the SS/3B for the next four years. One of them is likely to be moved to another position.
So there is more flexibility than your post would suggest.
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Hey Rich. You’re right, Granderson or Cano could be moved. But the premise of my post was that the minor league system doesn’t appear geared to fill those slots.
Your second comment about ARod and Jeter is interesting. ARod will be 3B for at least as long as Jeter’s next contract, which I doubt would be for less than 4 years. I don’t believe that Jeter will ever set foot on another position while in Yankee pinstripes.
Woulda, coulda???
We got 27! And we’re primed for 28.
DaSaint007
“Your second comment about ARod and Jeter is interesting. ARod will be 3B for at least as long as Jeter’s next contract, which I doubt would be for less than 4 years. I don’t believe that Jeter will ever set foot on another position while in Yankee pinstripes.”
Even if he gets a four year deal that keeps him in pinstripes until he is 40?
Jeter said once he could also dh
The Damon market has dried up.
Pitchers are catchers are less than two weeks away, however Johnny Damon is still looking for a job and there doesn’t appear to be many teams willing to bring him on board. FoxSports.com’s Jon Paul Morosi says the Braves and Tigers are definitely among the clubs interested in Damon, though Atlanta has taken a more passive approach. They’d be happy to take him if he “fell into their lap” according to the Fox scribe, which translates to “if his price comes way down.”
You have young power hitters with GG calibre defense in center and 2nd base. There is zero reason to even contemplate trading them anywhere. There is no replacements for them in any combination. Any time you can get that defense and upwards of 60-70 homers from those positions, they’re keepers. And, yes, I’m aware that it was hypothetical, but, irrational.
“Fat Sanchez” is gone, isn’t he?
Love that term. Blessings on whoever coined that.
I don’t think anyone picked him up, I could be wrong. We’re in good shape re Sanchez still have at least one more.
Bo knows February 6th, 2010 at 2:03 pm
“Fat Sanchez” is gone, isn’t he?
Love that term. Blessings on whoever coined that.
==================================================
I think you’re thinking of a “dirty sanchez”
I think you’re thinking of a “dirty sanchez”
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No, they came up with that on RAB. There is even an honorary one, Albaladejo. I’m waiting impatiently for Romulo to show up in a Yankee uniform. Snicker.
Have to agree with GB’s comments regarding the GG caliber contributions of Granderson and Cano, plus their productivity.
Rich, I don’t think it’s as much as an age thing with Jeter as a performance issue. If he’s able to be a .280/15HR/60 RBI guy while playing effective SS for 4 years, I think the team takes it, so YES, he could retire at SS at 40.
Personally, I still think it’s possible, though certainly not probable, that depending on additional World Series success in the next couple years, Jeter, Posada, Pettitte, and Rivera could all bow out togehter.
Braves have interest in Damon along with the Tigers, I hope he goes to the NL. He’ll have to play the field and prove Cashman’s judgement right again!!
Posada – Montero
Rivera – Joba
Pettitte – Hughes
Jeter – ???
“I’m waiting impatiently for Romulo to show up in a Yankee uniform. Snicker.’
I have a feeling if you saw him in person, you would call him sir.
DaSaint007
February 6th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
Posada – Montero
Rivera – Joba
Pettitte – Hughes
Jeter – ???
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Eduardo Sanchez?
Bobblehead’s in Trenton.
Joba, Phil, Robbie, Gardner, Cervelli, and Drob.
http://thunderbaseball.wordpress.com/
DaSaint007
Andy will leave first, followed by Posada, Jeter and Mariano will be the last to leave. Mariano is mentally strong and wants to play 5 more years, I believe him!
Jamie Moyer(Phillies) is 47, Randy Johnson 46(just retired) both in mid forties. Mo will be around as long as his stats say he;s still got it going on.
all i have to say is that this cutesie writing is driving me up the wall. it starts with sam’s writing (not chad) and it’s spilling into pinch hitters like tyu and baby joba. it’s making it hard to come back here even though I love the blog.
last year pinch hitters thought they were in competition for the sappiest sports blog post in history and burdened us with their deep inner feelings watching jeter strike out or mariano give up a grounder, or how yankee stadium transformed them into a hindu and a kabbalist and made them re-experience the ecstasy of their bar mitzvah all at once.
this year we’re trying to stuff as many silly metaphors, cliches, rhetorical questions and general smarminess into the post as we can.
and on another note: aside from the legal issues, i think it’s kind of arrogant to name your blog The Yankee Universe. It’s like naming a RS blog RS Nation. It’s not a blog name. If you’re stuck, just do what everyone else does: pick a yankee and name your blog after one of their body parts or unskilled employees. For example, “Jeff Nelson’s hang nail,” “jason giambi’s extra ball,” “Jose Veras’ pink sock,” “Roger Clemens’ right nostril waxer,” “Andy Pettitte’s nanny’s best friends boyfriend’s gigolo,” etc.
DaSaint007
February 6th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
Personally, I still think it’s possible, though certainly not probable, that depending on additional World Series success in the next couple years, Jeter, Posada, Pettitte, and Rivera could all bow out togehter.
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I think that given the loyalty and the strain that would put on the franchise, they may leave in successive years, starting with Pettitte, depending upon what he feels as making a solid contribution, followed by Posada, Rivera and Jeter, though, I can see Pettitte and Posada going year to year. None seem to be the type to hang on for an extra check.
Just got in, and just saw this new post –
1. Another example of why I like Sam’s input here. I’m no English teacher, but this is a very nicely written piece that flows smoothly. Also, I like the fact that Sam is not engaging in revisionis history.
2. This also nicely ties in todays guest post with a topic that still starts a discussion, even though it was a couple of years ago. Nice touch, Sam.
3. The one difference between trading Phil Hughes then, and trading Arodys Vizcaino or Dellin Betances now is that Phil was much more developed, and much higher regarded by multiple baseball orgnanizations, as a high-end prospect. Otherwise, I agree with Sam, in that trading a maybe for the here and now is the way to go. The catch that goes along with that is that sometimes, you will get burned.
I was for the trade until Hughes was mentioned. Then I changed my tune.
Also, I disagree that Santana hasn’t been as good as suspected. I think the opposite; Santana has been every bit as awesome as advertised.
Whoops, suspected should be expected. My bad.
“Santana has been every bit as awesome as advertised.”
How is that possible when he isn’t been able to stay healthy?
on another note: aside from the legal issues, i think it’s kind of arrogant to name your blog The Yankee Universe. It’s like naming a RS blog RS Nation. It’s not a blog name. If you’re stuck, just do what everyone else does: pick a yankee and name your blog after one of their body parts or unskilled employees. For example, “Jeff Nelson’s hang nail,” “jason giambi’s extra ball,” “Jose Veras’ pink sock,” “Roger Clemens’ right nostril waxer,” “Andy Pettitte’s nanny’s best friends boyfriend’s gigolo,” etc.
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The Granderson Central Station I’m Trying To Be A Jerk Blog” is a good name, too. How did you miss that one?
If that’s too long for you to remember, try “TGCSITTBAJB”.
Does anyone know if the Yankees announced a complete list of non roster ST invitees?
Rich-Well last year who cares, it made no difference, and he still made a good amount of starts and was awesome. Two years ago he was simply outstanding. He almost singlehandedly carried the Mets to the playoffs at the end of the year. They didn’t make it, but it sure wasn’t Johan’s fault.
Before last year, Santana’s reached 220 innings every season since 2004.
And he’s led his league in ERA in 3 of those seasons.
m1kew
February 6th, 2010 at 2:44 pm
Does anyone know if the Yankees announced a complete list of non roster ST invitees?
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I would think in 2 more weeks one Johnny Damon will be on it…
GreenBeret7
February 6th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
DaSaint007
February 6th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
Posada – Montero
Rivera – Joba
Pettitte – Hughes
Jeter – ???
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Eduardo Sanchez?
___________________________
actually it’s Eduardo Nunez and he’s 22 and will play at AAA this season….after giving up switch hitting and staying solely on his natural side RH he a AA season comparable to Hanley’s AA season at 21-22…at first glance you’ll see a lot of errors but he’s actually a plus defender with great range and one of the strongest arms in baseball….he’s kind of a RH Cano with 20-30 steal speed playing SS….needs ro continue to refine his games as do all prospects..
Think someone like him has value to the organization?
Oh, I think Santana has been every bit as good as the Mets could have hoped for. Not his fault the rest of the organization stinks. No other way to put it.
The question going forward is whether Santana will maintain his dominance, or will his suspected arm issues start to show up and he start his decline. He gets a break by being in the NL, but I would be a bit nervous were I the Mets. They have an awful lot of money tied up in him.
On a different note, how’s everyone doing with the snowstorm? Here on the north shore of LI, we’ve been fortunate, not a snowflake to be seen. Just cloudy and windy, biting cold.
1. There is nothing like the joy of watching your dog bound out the door and disappear into the snow….
2. I was glad the Yankees didn’t make that trade at the time.
Wait till we do it all over Again
If Santana had been a Yankee and had gotten hurt, would you really be saying “who cares”?
Granderson Central Station
In re: TYU
Irony is lost on you, huh?
This writer is the worst of the writers. If it isn’t a gossip thread it’s hyperbole, a sickening combination. Some of the stuff wouldn’t pass the smell test on a good blog!
I’m waiting for the day he slams the core 4. He’ll have his cajones handed to him on a platter. Yankees fans don’t like slash jobs on great Yankees players.
Cashman did a good job passing on Santana, he won a WS without him. The Mets are still waiting for theirs.
to say santana hasnt been able to stay healthy as a met is not fair. if the mets weren’t wasted by injuries last year, they would not have shut santana down for the last month. his 13-9, 3.13, 146K in 166 IP on a terrible team is damn good. his 2008 season was exactly what the mets had been hoping for and more. it wasnt his fault that the other pitchers stunk.
i was against the trade all along but its not right to degrade santana, one of baseball’s best pitchers just because the trade proposed at that time wasn’t advantageous to the yankees.
santana still rocks and as a yankees fan im very glad he’s in the nl where we only have to deal with him once or twice a year.
I’d posted on various boards that the Mets would have to get a minimum of 1400 innings and 119 victories out of Santana to justify his 7-yr contract. I’d said that, if he’d gone to the Yankees, given the relative value of the prospects the Yanks would have had to fork over, those minimums would be higher. For anyone who thinks that’s unrealistic, please consider that at that price a team has to expect ace performance every season, no less. And 17 victories and 200 innings is MINIMUM ace performance.
Thus far, Santana has given the Mets 400 innings and 29 wins over his two seasons. The deal can’t, of course, be fairly judged until it’s all over. But, by my calculation, Santana has to give the Mets 1000 innings and 90 victories over the next five seasons to justify the money spent. That’s 200 innings and 18 victories per season. That’s still achievable, but not a “lock.” There had already been some scuttlebut in baseball circles that Santana was hurting a little before the Mets obtained him. And, Santana isn’t getting any younger.
Given my position that, if the Yankees had traded for him, turning over Phil Hughes and another top prospect+ all that money, they would have had to have gotten even more out of Santana to justify the deal, I think it is highly unlikely the Yanks would have gotten their money’s worth. Would YOU count on Santana for, let’s say, 220 innings and 19 victories per season over the next five? I wouldn’t. (Sure, he’d probably win a few more with the Yanks, but could he really be counted on for all those innings?)
I didn’t support the idea of trading for Santana to begin with, as I’d figured that Cashman was waiting on CC. Because CC would require only money to obtain, and is a bigger, sturdier guy with just as much talent as Santana, I figured he’d be the better bet, long term. So far, it looks like I was right. And so was Cashman.
Eduardo Sanchez was a mistake,. It was Eduardo Nunez at shortstop that I meant to type. They also have Luis Nunez coming to Trenton and Jose Pirela going to Tampa, who might be the best of the bunch.
Tom in NJ
February 6th, 2010 at 2:54 pm
1. There is nothing like the joy of watching your dog bound out the door and disappear into the snow….
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Unless he has your new $300 Italian loafers in his mouth or has the kid’s blankie and is dragging your kid out the door with him.
Rich-He was not a Yankee. For the Yankees, with him filling the role of CC Sabathia, it would’ve mattered because we would’ve been competitive. If the Yanks sucked like the Mets, I could’ve cared less.
I was for it before I was against it!
I never wanted to give up Hughes. I would have considered it for Melky, Kennedy and a bag of used baseballs
I was against on several message boards at the time. It would have been a huge mistake.
And the idea that trading prospects for established players is always the right move isn’t smart. Thankfully, Stick didn’t feel this way when Jeter, Mo, Posada and Bernie were coming up through the minors.
There is more to consider than just choosing between “a player you know is a major leaguer and one that is just a ‘prospect.’”
Santana was/is obviously a frontline starter for any team’s rotation and at one point was the best in the game. Indisputable. Phil Hughes, may have the potential for the same. He may not. But, thats not the end of the evaluation of the trade/non-trade’s success or failure.
Santana will be 30 by the time the season starts. Hughes will 24 in June. Hughes is dirt cheap for the time being. So While maybe in the first 1-3 years of time of the trade Santana may produce up to the value of his contract extension that he required, after that, he would most certainly decline, especially in the AL East. Meanwhile, Hughes is coming into his own, still dirt cheap. After 3 years, Hughes is coming into the prime of his career and then, maybe he is ready for his first big time contract. If he’ worth it, the Yankees will pay.
Santana, on the otehr hand is getting older and getting paid an absurd amount of money as he slowly moves toward the back of the rotation. So not only did they give up a guy who would conceivably have a longer career with the Yankees, while maybe not being the instant impact, in Hughes, but they are shelling out boatloads of cash for a guy who is on the way down in his career.
While a lot of it is potential and trying to forecast the future, it’s also financial. To give up that haul of prospects and cash for one guy just isn’t worth it. Do they make the playoff’s in ’08 with Santana? Maybe.
But, afterwards, there is probably only one of Sabbathia, Burnett and Texeira and then you are looking at a rotation with either two legitimate starters and an aging Andy Petitte, inconsistent Joba and ??? Gaudin? Who knows. Or a lineup without Tex, and with Matsui, Posada and A-rod coming off injury.
The fact of the matter is Cashman maximized his cash and prospects when he passed on Santana. He got CC for just cash and now the rotation is absolutely stocked with a nice mix of established starters and up and comers. And, the lineup is starting to look the same way.
I am glad they didn’t make the trade because it demonstrated that the Yankees weren’t going to get held up. Every team assumed the Yankees would pay top dollar either in prospects, established players, or cash for whatever player they wanted. Cashman stood his ground and maybe that will help us in future negotiations. Right now I am happier with CC, AJ, and Tex with Hughes and Jobba still in the mix.
It was one thing for the Yanks to not give up some talent and not get Santana but why in the world did the Twins take that pile of junk with part timer Carlos Gomez as the centerpiece and trade with Mets. What a disgraceful job the Twins GM did. The Mets stole Santata but they still stink.
The cost of trading for Santana was much like that of Roy Halladay this past season. The cost is not just prospects, but prospects and money. Santana was in the final year of a contract and required a hefty contract extension once the trade was complete. The yankees could ill afford to this because not only would Santana have been expensive future production (good but not as great as before) but they would have lost good future production that was much cheaper in the form of Hughes and Chamberlain
Cashman knew if he could hold out to the next offseason the free agent pool would be a good one. He also knew some salaries (Giambi, Abreu)were coming off the books freeing up money.
This all worked because he got Sabbathia, Texiera, and Burnett. Plus he didn’t lose a single prospect.
Santana is great but he can’t pitch every game.