A question with no answer
Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Feb 07, 2010 
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Several times this week we’ve tried to compare players from different generations, almost always with frustrating results. Attempting to liken one player’s accomplishments (and the challenges he faced) with another’s from an entirely different era is the height of subjectivity; everyone has a different opinion on what corresponds fairly.
Now John, despite being a Saybrook man at Yale (there’s Stiles blood in my family), presents an interesting argument about Roger Maris and the single-season home run record. He posits that Maris is still the rightful holder because, if you remove all players who have admittedly (or very nearly been show to have) used PEDs than Maris’s performance is still tops.
It’s a tough question. One could make a reasonable case that, actually, Babe Ruth should still have the record since Maris needed eight more games in his season to hit one more homer than Ruth. I don’t happen to agree with that thinking – a season is a season and Maris can’t be faulted for that, much like earlier stars couldn’t control who was and wasn’t allowed to play in the majors – but if a player isn’t penalized during a particular season (for something that wasn’t penalize-able, if you will, during that season) than is it fair to retroactively say the accomplishment doesn’t count?
It’s easier for me to formulate an opinion on how to handle the Hall of Fame issue. If I’m fortunate enough to become a voter in a few years, I’ll be more comfortable coming up with a way to handle PED users whose stats put them in the HOF discussion (as discussed earlier, I lean towards leaving out admitted “cheaters” on the morals clause, though I’m still considering).
With the records and the so-called “asterisks,” I’m more conflicted. How do you differentiate? What are “felonies” and what are “misdemeanors” on the grand PED scale? Are greenies as bad as stanazonol? HGH? Boli? How do you rank them?
The only answer is that there is no easy one. And the sad reality is that the harm inflicted by those who use PEDs stretches much farther than most would imagine. Posts like John’s show the damage can reach across generations.
So if they expanded the season to 175 games or 200 games, well, “a season is a season” — even though all seasonal recors would probably be broken?
There was a time when it was thought that baseballs were juiced up or too tightly wound which caused them to fly off bats.
That got cleared up quickly.
Today, like so much of other industry outsourced, baseballs are made in Costa Rica.
Not to get off topic but does anyone think Cano will hit over 25 hrs this year?
I have him down for 31.
Chuck you can spend your life living in the past, or deal with the way things are now.
Are PEDs as bad as the sport not allowing certain races to participate until 1947?
Benny Blanco
February 7th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
Not to get off topic but does anyone think Cano will hit over 25 hrs this year?
I have him down for 31.
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Benny, I like the way you think-anytime the topic turns to Robinson Cano I’m all ears lol
I think he could definitely get over 25 this year
Morals clause? Interesting.
Consider this, Sam. What of Major League Baseball and what probably amounts to 30 front offices/ownership teams who looked the other way while this was going on? How about the countless players and their union, who sat on their thumbs rather than addressing the issue? How do you ignore the Mitchell Report’s contention that the names listed within represented the tip of the iceberg?
I’d have a tough time applying a morals clause to an issue in which virtually everyone involved was in some form doing wrong.
Erin-
I am nominiating you to make Cano your official pretend boyfriend.
I think its time you take the relationship to the next level
A repost from the previous subject:
lets go yankees
February 7th, 2010 at 12:01 pm
I would love someone to explain Maris’ “clean” career path:
HR’s By Season:
14
28
16
39
*61*
33
23
26
8
13
9
5
Hmmm… One thing does not look like the others…
If we are going to suspect every player with abnormal “power” seasons of drug use today, then there is no reason not to suspect Maris of cheating.
————————————————————
There are a lot of reasons for Maris’ home run totals. Moving into Yankee Stadium was the start. He had much better hitters before and after. For half of the the 1960 season he batted behind Mantle and then moved to the #3 spot after that. They had no choice but pitch to him. They weren’t going to walk him with Berra Skowren and Howard hitting behind him with Mantle, Richardson and Kubek on base.
In 1961, He hit third in the order. He was just hitting his prime and mantle was in his and, for him, healthy. In that year and a half of hitting 3rd, he had 1 intentional walk and 0 in 1961. With Mantle out of the line-up for over 40 games in 1962, he drew 10 intentional walks during that time. They didn’t have to pitch to him.
In 1963 and ‘64, he suffered knee injuries and never that healthy. From 1965, when he broke 4 bones in his hand and tore a couple on tendons, he never recovered the power.
One other major reason for the power surge, he was taught how to pull the ball, so, the average dropped and the homers rose.
The major factor was expansion. 22-24 pitchers that should have been in the minors or out of baseball. Batters who were never close to those totals were hitting 20-40 homers for a one/two year period.
Look back and you will see power spikes in every expansion period. Only in 1969 were totals close to normal, but, much higher than the 2 years prior.
As far as corked bats, in 1961 and in other years, Norm Cash won a batting title using a corked bat, hitting .361 and never had a .300 season, before or after.
*****Additional remarks*****
If you’re going to raise possible questions on Maris, for example, you’d better question Mantle and Mattingly.
Mantle had a 37 homer season in 1955 and jumped to 52 the next year (15 homer increase to Maris’ 23). In 1960 he hit 40 and in 1961 Mantle jumped to 14. Mattingly jumped from 4 in half a season in 1983 to 23 in 1984. Puckett went from 0 to 4 to 31 in three seasons. Better start questioning the legitimacy of those…or, those of Ken Griffey, Jr. who went from 27 to 45.
Erin, I am all for Erica living out her seasons whatever way she wants to, including having seasonal PFBs. However I will say that it makes it easier to be critical of players when they don’t have forum spouses! You really don’t want to hurt the pretend feelings of your forum friends.
(Since the Yankees and Damon are officially divorced, I feel I can take more freedom with my criticisms.)
Ultimately the players using PEDs hurt their own legacies. Bonds and Clemens were great players in their own right. Now their legitimate accomplishments are over shadowed by their PED use.
Erin
I agree w/ Erica in regards to you and Cano
Erica – always OPPC – Wishes Damon would fire Boras and COME HOME!
February 7th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
Erin-
I am nominiating you to make Cano your official pretend boyfriend.
I think its time you take the relationship to the next level
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LOL You’re right, I should
Oops! I got it backwards. Erica is nominating Erin.
Erin, if you go for it you better have thick skin. Robby definitely has a group of detractors on this forum. I’m absolutely not included in that bunch. I’ve loved Robby since jump street.
upstate kate
February 7th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
Erin
I agree w/ Erica in regards to you and Cano
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thanks kate!!
trisha – OPPC forever – (new lucky picture from last day at the old Stadium) BRING ON THE GHOSTS!
February 7th, 2010 at 1:08 pm
Oops! I got it backwards. Erica is nominating Erin.
Erin, if you go for it you better have thick skin. Robby definitely has a group of detractors on this forum. I’m absolutely not included in that bunch. I’ve loved Robby since jump street.
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LOL-believe me I know all about the criticism he gets. I can handle it though-don’t worry
LOL-believe me I know all about the criticism he gets. I can handle it though-don’t worry
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Erin,
You are a strong woman!
I fully support pretend relationships.
It’s the real ones that are a problem.
GB7,
Yeah, that is my point. For some reason people look the other way on certain player’s spikes in HRs, yet others are definitely cheaters. I pointed to Maris as particularly suspect because he had only 1 high HR season. Griffey for example was pretty consistently a 40+ HR hitter in his prime.
Fran (the original) and OPPC member
February 7th, 2010 at 1:14 pm
LOL-believe me I know all about the criticism he gets. I can handle it though-don’t worry
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Erin,
You are a strong woman!
***********************
Thank you! I try
trisha – OPPC forever – (new lucky picture from last day at the old Stadium) BRING ON THE GHOSTS!
February 7th, 2010 at 1:06 pm
Erin, I am all for Erica living out her seasons whatever way she wants to, including having seasonal PFBs. However I will say that it makes it easier to be critical of players when they don’t have forum spouses! You really don’t want to hurt the pretend feelings of your forum friends.
(Since the Yankees and Damon are officially divorced, I feel I can take more freedom with my criticisms.)
****************
All things considered, I think I have been remarkably thick skinned about Damon bashing on this board lately and take extreme offense to any suggestion otherwise
Some people are under the mistaken idea that speed was the “drug of choice” in the late ’50s thru the ’90s only. Speed starting making it’s appearance in baseball around the same time the doughboys came back from Europe after WWI. It was a German discovery and they were issued to their troops. It was more widely used in WWII by both sides. soldiers came back to the states with them and returned to playing baseball. Ask Ralph Kiner who often he flew convoy duty over the Atlantic in his PBY while juiced on speed.
“Via The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Pirates’ GM Neal Huntington admitted that former Yankee prospect Jose Tabata might actually be in his mid-20’s, instead of the 21 he’s believed to be.”
lets go yankees
February 7th, 2010 at 1:15 pm
GB7,
Yeah, that is my point. For some reason people look the other way on certain player’s spikes in HRs, yet others are definitely cheaters. I pointed to Maris as particularly suspect because he had only 1 high HR season. Griffey for example was pretty consistently a 40+ HR hitter in his prime.
————————————————————
I didn’t say that steroids didn’t cause a rise in power numbers, but, I doubt that it was the 20-25% increase that I’ve seen bandied about. At most 10%, but, closer to 5%. The next problem will be, figuring out how many players lost numbers because of juiced pitchers.
Neal Huntington on Tabata;
“All of the documentation he has used to obtain his visa from the U.S. government and his passport from the Venezuelan government indicates his reported age is accurate,” Huntington said in an e-mail to the Tribune-Review. “Apart from unfounded speculation, there is nothing to indicate his age any different than reported. My point is that while we have reason to doubt his reported age, it is a non-issue to us.”
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/.....ml?feed=14
Uh Erica, don’t get your back up. I don’t know that anyone has suggested otherwise. That said, I find it offensive that I should have to edit my comments based on some fictitious relationship you cooked up. And it would be less than honest of you to suggest that you haven’t taken personal offense at comments regarding Damon. Some of your comments here have shown just the opposite.
But then again, I consider it extremely silly when any poster shows hurt feelings if another poster comes down on her or her favorite player.
Erica – always OPPC – Wishes Damon would fire Boras and COME HOME!
February 7th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
All things considered, I think I have been remarkably thick skinned about Damon bashing on this board lately and take extreme offense to any suggestion otherwise
************************
Erica, I think you have handled all of the Damon bashing very well.
trisha – OPPC forever – (new lucky picture from last day at the old Stadium) BRING ON THE GHOSTS!
February 7th, 2010 at 1:30 pm
Uh Erica, don’t get your back up. I don’t know that anyone has suggested otherwise. That said, I find it offensive that I should have to edit my comments based on some fictitious relationship you cooked up. And it would be less than honest of you to suggest that you haven’t taken personal offense at comments regarding Damon. Some of your comments here have shown just the opposite.
But then again, I consider it extremely silly when any poster shows hurt feelings if another poster comes down on her or her favorite player.
**************
I have never asked you nor suggested that you should edit your comments. I have questioned them, But I never said to stop making them.
As far as my pretend relationship- Trisha, has it ever occurred to you that maybe you just don’t get the joke???
And any time I come down on another poster for their comments on Johnny Damon, its supported by fact and not hissy fit
Yeah Erica, whatever you say.
Is there any way for Sam to post his follow-up BELOW the pinch-hitter? It almost seems like one-upsmanship to put your own reactions above the pinch-hitter’s post.
“But then again, I consider it extremely silly when any poster shows hurt feelings if another poster comes down on her or her favorite player.”
Maybe, but referring to Damon as a 4th OF, as you have for the past week to 10 days, when he’d be the 2nd most valuable outfielder on the present Yankees team is similarly silly.
“Via The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Pirates’ GM Neal Huntington admitted that former Yankee prospect Jose Tabata might actually be in his mid-20’s, instead of the 21 he’s believed to be.”
———————————————
that should shut anyone up, still complaining of the intelligent trade Cashman made at the time
Frank, this is even more amazing than some of the other stuff I’ve read supporting Damon. His defense is pathetic. He can’t even play every day. I won’t even take this one any further, your premise is so absurd. You want to talk his offense, that’s one thing. When I talk outfielder I talk defense. The Yankees are pretty sewn up tight with offense.
By the way, I don’t get my feelings hurt when someone trashes one of my favorite players. And I don’t get my feelings hurt when someone disagrees with my premise on a baseball player’s abilities.
I am much more forgiving than most on the PED issue. The union, management, and fans did absolutely squat on the issue and never would have if it hadn’t exploded in the media. Therefore I believe that in those days (pre 2004 or whatever)there was an implicit acceptance and to blame players now for it is hypocritical. I remember the stories in 98-99 about Mcgwire using Andro. Now baseball decides that it is a steroid (ped) and anyone who has used it is a cheater???? I think that records and HOF both have to be considered in the context of the times. In the70’s 80’s 90’s and early 2000’s (don’t know when they started) they were accepted like it or not.
Frank,
I’ve referred to Damon as a DH/4OF for the Yankees, too.
Looking back, that’s harsh and taking it a bit far.
But the truth is that he likely wouldn’t play the field everyday.
I think that Cashman wanted Damon back as the DH, not as the LF.
trisha – OPPC forever – (new lucky picture from last day at the old Stadium) BRING ON THE GHOSTS!
February 7th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
By the way, I don’t get my feelings hurt when someone trashes one of my favorite players. And I don’t get my feelings hurt when someone disagrees with my premise on a baseball player’s abilities.
************
Trisha- if you would like to made a dig at me, please be direct about it and not hide such statements in your reply to someone else.
There is also a HUGE line between “hurt feelings” and disagreeing with ones opinions. I happen to agree with nothing you say about Johnny Damon but my feelings aren’t hurt (trust me, I don’t sit here crying). I kind of just ignore it and let it go
Pretend relationships with common sense are still ok for 2010, then?
And Frank, if you think it’s silly, it’s your right to say so. And then my right to disagree with you. But I don’t take it personally. It’s baseball talk. Period.
Fairly or unfairly, the era has tainted everyone, the PED users and the non-PED users (as well as Selig, Fehr, every owner, every GM, and every manager).
It’s impossible to say with certainty that any given player did not cheat. As a result, every single player’s accomplishments can be viewed with skepticism.
“Trisha- if you would like to made a dig at me, please be direct about it and not hide such statements in your reply to someone else.”
Erica, actually I was going back to all of the frenetic response I and others got when we said we felt that Posada’s skills were declining and we thought Molina should catch Burnett. But thanks for the invitation. If I feel the need to take a dig at you, I’ll let you know. I don’t think there have ever been many strings on my tongue here.
M:
That’s probably the case. I do think he may have gone for 80-90 starts in the OF no matter what, but when Cashman offered him $6M AFTER Johnson was signed, that was for him to be the everyday LF…..again. Is he better suited to DH? Yeah probably. Would he be a 4th OF on a team that features Granderson, Swisher, Winn, Gardner and some low end righty? Not in a million years.
“Maybe, but referring to Damon as a 4th OF, as you have for the past week to 10 days, when he’d be the 2nd most valuable outfielder on the present Yankees team is similarly silly.”
Actually I don’t think I’ve ever referred to him as that! I do think he would be however, and I don’t consider that insulting, just factual from my perspective.
To correct myself, Winn should have been included in my last post because he would not have been a Yankee if Damon took the $6M offer.
“…that was for him to be the everyday LF…..again. Is he better suited to DH? Yeah probably. Would he be a 4th OF on a team that features Granderson, Swisher, Winn, Gardner and some low end righty? Not in a million years.”
Frank, I honestly don’t think he would have ever been brought back to be the everyday LF. If that were in the cards he would have been signed earlier, IMO. I think he would have been back to spell DH and maybe spend some time in left. I never thought Damon was coming back as LF.
Frank,
They didn’t want Damon so much after they signed Johnson. So I disregard any lineup configuration that includes Damon.
To hear Boras talk, the Yankees didn’t offer Damon anything at all.
Rich in NJ
I agree but I also lump the fans in with them.
What if this year they decided that Creatine was a PED? Would every player who ever used creatine then be a cheater? I wouldn’t think so but in some sense that is what is happening
Frank, my opinion is the same as Mel’s. I don’t believe that once NJ was signed the Yankees saw any great need to bring Damon back. I don’t believe for a minute that whether he was signed or not he was ever going to be their everyday LF.
So I disregard any lineup configuration that includes Damon AND Nick Johnson.
Trish & M:
We’ll agree to disagree on this. Cashman did make the offer for $6M and it was not to be a 4th OF. I’d agree there was not “any great need”, but the offer was made nonetheless. Nobody, not even the Yankees, gives a free agent $6M to augment their bench.
Ditto.
On another note, there was a fire last night about 20 minutes from me that killed 5 young people, ages 24 and younger, with the youngest being a 7-month old baby. One of the people was Rocco Baldelli’s cousin.
I wish everyone here peace. Whether or not Johnny Damon was signed and whether we agree or disagree about it really isn’t worth fighting about. So I apologize if I was too hard about it. Stuff like the above really gives me perspective on life. (It’s too bad it takes something like that to do it.)
Tn Yankee
Fans, including myself, are suckers, but we have very little power.
Yes, making the decision on which supplements are permissible and which aren’t is to embark on a slippery slope, but sometimes lines have to be drawn, even if it is done imperfectly.
Damon’s and Boras’ mistake is in believing that Damon should be paid almost the same as he was as an above average to very good all around center fielder that he signed on with the NYYs in 2006. The fact is, he’s now a below average defensive left fielder/DH and a slightly less tha average offensive left fielder and that’s how the Yankees see him. His “intangables” just aren’t worth $3-5 mil a year.
Greenberet- Thanks for all your insight. I’m only 30 years old,so it’s nice to read your insight from that era. Thanks
Rich
agreed
Well, yeah, if he made a $6m offer then you’re right. But what they were really offering him was $2m up front to be what they really think he is. A part-time fielder!
That offer of deferred $$ was not made in good faith (I think). That’s a Torre offer. An offer he has to refuse.
Frank, I don’t know that the 6 mil offer was even made. I do remember Cashman saying that after NJ was signed, the book had closed on Damon. That said, I am convinced that if he were brought back, it would have been as part time DH, part time bench, part time OF. Damon couldn’t play LF every day last year and he missed some important catches in the WS even after being sat during the season. His days in the OF, IMO, are pretty much over. The guy’s legs are shot. And he could never throw to save his life. Too much of a crap shoot in the OF.
My belief is that after NJ was signed, Damon was pretty much out of the picture.
m, was the 2/$14MM offer made in good faith?
And more importantly, will Pete Townsend perform his famous ‘windmill’ guitar move more than 5.5 times during the Super Bowl halftime show?
I have been a fan of Johnny D for years. Yes, there are some red sox players I like (Lowell and Millar come to mind) just as there are some Yankees my sister likes (Derek and Bernie). I can’t dismiss Johnny’s contributions just b/c he is no longer a Yankee. He was a valuable member of the team both on and off the field. I think he and Boras misjudged the market, or he would still be a Yankee. Johnny’s business dealings in no way diminish my feelings towards him as a player. IMO I think the Yankees wanted him back as part time LF, part time DH.
Nick in SF
February 7th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
And more importantly, will Pete Townsend perform his famous ‘windmill’ guitar move more than 5.5 times during the Super Bowl halftime show?
**************
Under
Yeah Mel, if they turned down the Yanks most generous offer saying there was nothing to talk about, you would think that an offer for much less, with half of it deferred, would be pretty much disingenuous. Kind of like the Torre and Jeff Nelson offers. Offers that begged to be turned down.
one agent spoke about the Mets offseason: “How can you have that payroll and still not have a starting catcher or first baseman, a second baseman you hate and no legitimate starters after Johan?”
well done, Omar. Very thankful Willie Randolph is not on board to witness your handiwork
Will it take Carrie Underwood more or less than one minute and 42 seconds to perform the National Anthem?
Nick,
When was it made? If it was before the NJ signing, then yes. If it was at face value, with no deferred money, then yes.
And the Mike Stanton “you have 15 minutes to give us your answer” offer.
That was terrible.
Any time, Eric. There are quite a few on here from that era, like Murph (almost) and Pat M. I’d include Randy, but, most think he’s the best to talk about the Wee Willie Keeler/Happy Jack Chesbro era. He has all of the first hand knowledge from that time. You need to be patient with him, though. He tends to drift in and out of lucidity at times.
Who will the Super Bowl MVP of the Game thank first?
God, family, teammates, coach, or no one?
Nick in SF
February 7th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
Will it take Carrie Underwood more or less than one minute and 42 seconds to perform the National Anthem?
*************
Ugh….don’t remind me. No offense to Carrie Underwood fans!!
If it’s Brees, I think he’ll thanks the city of New Orleans.
6 times for Pete-He’ll do it at least 3 times while playing Baba O’riley
Less than 1:42 for Underwood.
I’m watching the Survivor Highlights show that I taped. Russell just referred to his skills as on the same level with Babe Ruth.
Nick in SF
February 7th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
Will it take Carrie Underwood more or less than one minute and 42 seconds to perform the National Anthem?
**********
Thats a toughie, I am going over
Speaking of Underwood, I noticed while being in the supermarket check-out line that she is on the cover of Cosmo. I didn’t even recognize here.
http://dailycontributor.com/ca.....irl/11394/
Drew Brees is going to thank a train if he wins?
Btw- for anyone hosting- “Erica’s Taco Dip” is remarkably easy and an unbelieveably big hit again and again
here = her
1-2 minutes for the National Anthem is fine….much better than some of the 5 minute versions that sound more like a strip tease intro.
In keeping with the theme of this thread, the Super Bowl MVP should thank his chemist.
m, it was made before NJ signed. I think it was genuine too, though that has been a point of contention here.
I think almost all of us can agree that Damon would have had the most value to the team as a DH who can also occasionally play the field, and that seems to be how Cashman valued him the most.
Damon’s value to the Yanks went down some after the Granderson trade , went down a lot after the NJ signing, and then down to wherever it is now after the Randy Winn signing. As far as I can tell.
Rich in NJ
February 7th, 2010 at 2:24 pm
In keeping with the theme of this thread, the Super Bowl MVP should thank his chemist.
*****************
No silly. Don’t you know baseball is the only sport with that problem????
(Note the sarcasm folks)
How Many Times will CBS show Kim Kardashian on TV during the Game? More or less than 2.5 times?
How Many Times will CBS show Archie Manning on TV during the Game? More or less than 4.5 times?
“I think almost all of us can agree that Damon would have had the most value to the team as a DH who can also occasionally play the field, and that seems to be how Cashman valued him the most.
Damon’s value to the Yanks went down some after the Granderson trade , went down a lot after the NJ signing, and then down to wherever it is now after the Randy Winn signing. As far as I can tell.”
Nick, I agree with all of that. I think the one difference is that I believe that after the NJ signing, his value to the Yankees was actually gone. Other than that, I think you’ve outlined it all well. DH, part-time fielder.
Tom, keep in mind that they won’t be playing any songs in their entirety, from what I’ve read. But I bet he does it 4 times alone just at the end of Won’t Get Fooled Again.
It will be interesting to see whether Kendra Wilkinson gets any face time, unless face time is related to level of importance of player. Not sure if her husband even plays. I know he’s on the team.
How Many Times will CBS announcers fully mention Hurricane Katrina during the game? More or less than 2.5 times?
If the New Orleans Saints win will Kim Kardashian and Reggie Bush be engaged by July 31st 2010?
GB said:
There are a lot of reasons for Maris’ home run totals. Moving into Yankee Stadium was the start.
The major factor was expansion. 22-24 pitchers that should have been in the minors or out of baseball. Batters who were never close to those totals were hitting 20-40 homers for a one/two year period.
——————————————————-
This seems logical at first blush but Maris’ actual numbers do not seem to support these conclusions.
At home, Maris’ line:
.286/.372/.629 with one HR every 10.8 PA
On the road:
.255/.373/613 with one HR every 12.0 PA
Against pitchers with 25+ GS or 10+ SV in 1960 (The most established/successful)
.343 AVG, one HR per 7.2 AB’s
Against all others from 1960(The bottom of the league including “expansion” pitchers)
.241 AVG, one HR per 11.2 AB’s
Against pitchers with 25+ GS or 10+ SV in 1961
.282 AVG, one HR per 9.3 AB’s
Against all other from 1961
.253 AVG, one HR per 10.3 AB’s
The findings would suggest that Maris did not feast upon the bottom of the league’s pitchers (although other hitters almost certainly did). Additionally, while he did enjoy a hitting advantage at Yankee Stadium, it was slight at best.
Nick, you ask a lot of questions
BTW, congrats to Johnny Damon for being voted January Yankee Employee of the Month:
http://johnsterling.blogspot.c.....on-of.html
The Yankees-Red Sox 1978 playoff will be on YES opposite the Super Bowl.
Nick in SF
February 7th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
How Many Times will CBS show Kim Kardashian on TV during the Game? More or less than 2.5 times?
How Many Times will CBS show Archie Manning on TV during the Game? More or less than 4.5 times?
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Kim: more
Archie: less
Eli might get plenty of camera coverage too
But Eli will probably be in the same luxury box that his dad is in, so they could appear on camera together. I think it’s partially tied in to how well Peyton is doing, but Archie is also a former Saint and resides in New Orleans, so I think that one goes over 4.5.
thanks for the heads up Nick, that is what the DVR is for.
Erica- what is your special dip?
can any Syracuse basketball fans explain why it seems they are losing at the beginning of many games?
Nick in SF
February 7th, 2010 at 2:42 pm
But Eli will probably be in the same luxury box that his dad is in, so they could appear on camera together. I think it’s partially tied in to how well Peyton is doing, but Archie is also a former Saint and resides in New Orleans, so I think that one goes over 4.5.
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Very true. OK, I officially change my answer to more for Archie. Will you allow the change???
Kate-
Its so easy. And everyone loves it. When I made it at the beach club this summer, 8 people appeared from nowhere and sat around it.
Start with a 9×13 glass casserole dish. Layer the bottom with a can of refried beans. Top that off with salsa (I use a few tablespoons to make sure its coated). The take a stick of softened cream cheese and cut up squares and cover the salsa. Top it all off with a bag of some osrt of mexican cheese blend. Put it all in the microwave for 7 minutes and serve hot!!!
Long game, over on all props. Except for the one on how many times they say “The Yankees will regret not re-signing Johnny Damon.”
How Many Times will CBS show Archie Manning on TV during the Game? More or less than 4.5 times?
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During the AFC Championship game CBS showed the families and team owners boxes every time their team scored. Since I expect this to be a high scoring game I expect we will be seeing a lot of the Mannings.
Erin: absolutely. But once the wager is entered, that’s another story.
Nick in SF
February 7th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
Erin: absolutely. But once the wager is entered, that’s another story.
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Good deal
thanks Erica
I have all the ingredients, and an avocado for the top
For all of you posting Damon would be a 4th of/dh, I wonder if you will be still posting that after a couple of months of Gardner?
I understand his defensive shortcomings, but are you really saying that right now Gardner gives the Yankees a better chance to win than Damon? BTW, I hope you are right.
Maris’ 1960 numbers would have been considerably higher if he hadn’t played the last last two months with broken ribs, after breaking up a DP on a slide into 2nd base….a DP grounder that Mantle stopped running after about 30 feet, leading to him being pulled from the game and benched the next day. it was the worst booing he ever got.
Expansion in 1961 had no affect on 1960 numbers. The injuries certainly did, though. He hit 22 homers against the bottom four teanm After the injury his average drooped from .295 to a low of .272 before rallying….but, without power.
33 homers against the bottom 5 teams in 1961. 13 against the 2 expansion teams…teams that gave up 180 homers and 131 homers. The Senators would have given up more if not for the airport they played in. You still think that expansion wasn’t the major reason for the spikes?
according to MLBTRs there are rumors that Tabata might actually be in his mid 20s.
upstate kate
February 7th, 2010 at 2:56 pm
thanks Erica
I have all the ingredients, and an avocado for the top
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Awesome. Let me know how its enjoyed!
Sorry, but, nothing beats Borden’s French Onion Dip.
Avacado dip looks like something that I heaved up last night.
Just my opinion.
GB- I agree w/ you about avocado dip, but I am talking about slices of fresh avocado
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,585040,00.html
my friend saw AROD and Jeter at the W Hotel Party in South Beach last night…my tweet of the day ha
upstate kate
February 7th, 2010 at 3:10 pm
GB- I agree w/ you about avocado dip, but I am talking about slices of fresh avocado
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I just can’t stand the taste of them. I’d rather have my mom force me to eat beans and liver, and she could never do that.
Using moral clause, all the players who took amphetamines (meaning most of those who played since at least sixties) should be out of the Hall. You can’t hold steroids to higher standard than amphetamines.
And, if I haven’t missed anything, there was never any proof that Sosa took steroids.
The longevity of records and comparison of players across generations gets ridiculous. Sure Maris hit 61 without steriods but how many different pitchers did he have to see in a game? He was much more likely to get 4 at bats off the same tired started than facing a starter/ long reliever/middle reliever/set-up man/closer. And yeah, he had 8 more games than Ruth, but the Babe also played in a segregated league. When did Dominican players become prevalent? My point is, there are far too many variables to get all worked up about individual records. You think we’ll ever see anyone get within 150 wins of Cy Young’s 511? Of course not. Was he nearly twice as good as all HoF pitchers today or has the game just changed that much? I believe its the latter.
tampayank
February 7th, 2010 at 3:14 pm
my friend saw AROD and Jeter at the W Hotel Party in South Beach last night…my tweet of the day ha
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Who got in the first punch?
“Sosa Is Said to Have Tested Positive in 2003″
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06.....oping.html
18/107=16.8 %
i’d say when comments get over 100 and a commenter consistently goes over 15%. they should get their own blog.
so we’d have the choice of not going there.
tampayank
February 7th, 2010 at 3:14 pm
my friend saw AROD and Jeter at the W Hotel Party in South Beach last night…my tweet of the day ha
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OMG, SO jealous!!! That’s so cool
GB said:
Maris’ 1960 numbers would have been considerably higher if he hadn’t played the last last two months with broken ribs, after breaking up a DP on a slide into 2nd base….a DP grounder that Mantle stopped running after about 30 feet, leading to him being pulled from the game and benched the next day. it was the worst booing he ever got.
Expansion in 1961 had no affect on 1960 numbers. The injuries certainly did, though. He hit 22 homers against the bottom four teanm After the injury his average drooped from .295 to a low of .272 before rallying….but, without power.
33 homers against the bottom 5 teams in 1961. 13 against the 2 expansion teams…teams that gave up 180 homers and 131 homers. The Senators would have given up more if not for the airport they played in. You still think that expansion wasn’t the major reason for the spikes?
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While I am familiar with the injury you noted, assuming that Maris would have been “considerably higher” is mere conjecture. It is true that his HR totals and rate did drop in the final 2 months, but not precipitously. He still managed to hit 11 and 10 HR’s respectively when the pressure to catch Ruth was at its highest, down from 11, 15, and 13 in the prior 3 months. In contrast, no injury can explain his April output of 1 HR, although I’m sure that someone will cite a change in the batting order for his sudden turnabout. Regardless, injury or not, he still averaged 10.5 HR in the last 2 months, down only from 13 HR over the prior 3.
The numbers about 1960 (as well as the 1961 numbers)are relevant as they group the pitchers into categories that demonstrate those regarded as the most competent and the ones who would still have been on rosters even if expansion had not occurred. Conversely, you cited Maris’ success against the bottom 5 teams in the league, a proposition that assumes that each of those teams has the roughly 45-50 worst pitchers in the league. While it is true that expansion teams generally have inferior staffs, the effect of expansion is greater felt league wide as inferior arms are disseminated league-wide across the back-end of each team’s staff.
For example, the 5 teams that you mentioned (Bos., Minn., L.A., Wash, and K.C.) featured such arms as Conley, Kaat, Ramos, Pascual, McBride, Donovan, Sturdivant, Nuxhall, Shaw, et. al. These pitchers would have almost certainly have been on MLB rosters regardless of expansion. The disagreement here is a question of targeting–namely that it cannot be assumed that the worst teams in the league have an absolute monopoly on the 45-50 worst pitchers.
To answer your question of whether or not expansion affected offensive output in 1961, I would say that it absolutely had an effect. However, in the individual case of Maris, the numbers do not suggest that he personally benefitted altogether that much.
New Post: Official Super Beauxl Menu Thread
Paul O’Neill
February 7th, 2010 at 3:18 pm
The longevity of records and comparison of players across generations gets ridiculous. Sure Maris hit 61 without steriods but how many different pitchers did he have to see in a game? He was much more likely to get 4 at bats off the same tired started than facing a starter/ long reliever/middle reliever/set-up man/closer. And yeah, he had 8 more games than Ruth, but the Babe also played in a segregated league. When did Dominican players become prevalent? My point is, there are far too many variables to get all worked up about individual records. You think we’ll ever see anyone get within 150 wins of Cy Young’s 511? Of course not. Was he nearly twice as good as all HoF pitchers today or has the game just changed that much? I believe its the latter.
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I think you’re absolutely right when it comes to making comparisons across generations due to the difficulty in controlling for extraneous variables. Along with the one’s you mentioned, the changing modes of MLB team travel, scheduling changes, moving away from DH’s, developments in sports medicine and nutrition, equipment enhancements, the rise of other professional leagues competing for talent, the movement of baseball away from being a regional sport confined to the Northeast have all drastically affected the game’s outputs positively and negatively. I’m guessing that most fans would be surprised to realize that for over the 1st 50 years of the modern era, the farthest most Western and Southern city in the game was St. Louis.
BTW, your remark regarding 150 wins of 511 reminds me of just how remarkable of career that Greg Maddux has had (I think it is safe to say a non-PED user).
Maris had no injuries in 1961. It was in mid-August of 1960. He hit 4 homers in the last 7 weeks. No conjecture there.
You’re forgetting about the pitchers the other teams had to bring up to fill their pitching rosters. Nobody said that in 1961 the worst teams had the 50 worst pitchers, but, they came close. The Twins were on the verge of becoming a relevant team. No surprise that Kralick and Pascual were two of the better young pitchers around. Kaat was hardly a top flight pitcher that season. Conley was a run of the mill pitcher by then as was Nuxall. I’m not getting into who should or shouldn’t have been on those teams. There were plenty on every team, including the Yankees.