Next stop, Cooperstown
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Feb 11, 2010 
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Frank Thomas was a .301/.419/.555 hitter for his career? He got on base 4,222 times, which is 250 more than Tony Gwynn, 400 more than Mike Schmidt, 800 more than Ernie Banks and a thousand more than Willie Stargell. He was top 10 in RBI nine times, led the league in walks four times and never finished top 10 in strikeouts.
Tom Glavine won 305 games in his career. He won 20 five times, and finished with double-digit wins in 18 of 19 seasons, the only exception being a nine-win season in 2003. He was a Cy Young winner at age 25, an all-star at age 40 and had a 2.16 ERA in eight World Series starts, three of them complete games.
Glavine retired today, accepting a role in the Braves front office. Thomas also made his retirement official, fittingly while getting a lifetime achievement award in Chicago. Two of the best players of the past two decades. We’ll see them in the Hall of Fame in a few years.
Yup, both Hall of Famers, EASY.
Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, Ken Griffey Jr.
Those guys were clean IMHO.
# Rich in NJ February 11th, 2010 at 10:26 pm
Carl
You quoted my name, but not my post.
What, if anything, did I type that you responding to?
I meant to quote Melk in hotlanta. me fault!
Glavine without a doubt (enough of the 1st ballot crap) and Thomas too (I hate to say this–pending he’s clean).
Carl
Next time, please fix my typos.
Jim Thome gained about 60 pounds his second or third year in the league. Like hell he was clean.
I was crazy. I fell into bolivian.
Mike Tyson February 11th, 2010 at 10:34 pm
I was crazy. I fell into bolivian.
————————————————————–
I remember when Keith Hernandez fell into some Bolivian.
If him gaining weight is your only evidence that he did steroids then you really don’t have much of a case and your just spewing BS.
connorf,
let’s see, he was on one of the roidiest teams in the league (the 1990s Cleveland Indians) and after struggling eaarly he doubled his size, moved to first and hit 500+ homers. If you can’t do the math, fine. If you want to keep your head in the sand about what happened, that’s fine,too. But he was part of that juice culture in Cleveland. How old were you when he came up? If you were a little kid and missed it, I can understand, if you were a grownup, you just weren’t paying attention.
connorf
February 11th, 2010 at 10:48 pm
If him gaining weight is your only evidence that he did steroids then you really don’t have much of a case and your just spewing BS.
—————————————-
Connorf,
There is certainly no point in being rude about Phil’s point. Granted, there is no “smoking gun”, but a great deal of circumstantial evidence exists that points to the potential guilt of a number of previously not implicated players. Thome would certainly fit into the category of “questionable”.
Gambling has always been referenced as the activity that poses the greatest risk to the integrity of the sport. I would disagree and hold that PED usage has been far worse in eroding the credibility of the game.
You have no evidence that he hit steroids other then him hitting more homeruns as he hit his prime and got more playing time in the mid 90s. Oh and he played on the same team as David Justice. Sure he could have but it’s unfair to blindly accuse every power hitter in that era of steroid use. Weren’t you the one who was also sure the Yankees would sign Matt Holliday?
Also i don’t think the Indians were particularly juiced up compared to other teams at that time. Matt Williams, Ramirez and Justice i think are the only ones who were caught on their roster. Maybe Giles to but he was young then.
Gary Sheffield might be in that potential HOF class as well if he doesn’t find a suitor.
I can see the writers giving his candidacy the cold shoulder.
Frank Thomas is 22nd all time with 1,704 RBI’s.
Alex is 21st with 1,706. And he’s 7 years younger.
Do you remember the strange career of Carlos Baerga? Or Albert Belle? Or their trade for Juan Gone? They were one of the roidiest teams back then. They were also one of the best, and I do think Thome belongs in the HoF, I just also believe he did what the others were doing.
Phil,
Do you believe that a player who is clearly shown to have used PED’s should be allowed in the HOF? After all, how can we know how much of his success was due to his PED usage? Even if we assumed that PED usage was the norm for the time and we will select the top players relative to each other, we cannot assume that each player who used benefitted in a proportional manner.
Juan Gone was only their for a year and that was after Thome was an established power hitter. Baerga you have a point on but i don’t think anything was uncovered on Belle.
I have also suspected Richie Sexson from that group.
Everyone is suspect from the PED era, Selig, the owners, the GMs, the managers, even the supposed clean players.
Belle was a study in roid rage. Every oneand their brother knew Juan Gone was juicing (Texas was one of the big roid places, too) when Cleveland traded for him at the height of the roid era. They had no problem collecting roid guys.
I believe one of Juan Gone’s posse was dinged in a Canadien airport for transporting PED’s.
Joe,
I think PED use was so prevalent that it created a level playing field. And I don’t believe the roid guys should be penalized, since there are several generations of anphetamine guys already in and those increase bat speed, too.
“Do you remember the strange career of Carlos Baerga?”
I wonder if the Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest has a sports category. That could be a winner.
Looks like Damon might get his 2 years after all. Have no idea why the Tigers would offer that when nobody else has.. So much for them cutting payroll I guess.
What’s the chances that the second year that the Tigers are reportedly offering Damon is really a transfer payment that will end up back in Ilitch’s pocket?
Seriously, there is something that doesn’t smell right about this supposed deal.
And let’s not forget that MLB’s current pre-eminent specialist in fertility research was also a Cleveland Indian.
Phil,
I would tend to agree with you on the “level playing field” theory, although I do believe that PED’s aided some players more than others (Example–Sammy Sosa’s full-blown use vs. Wally Joyner’s dabbling). Most troubling though is the fact that PED usage by some players forced non-using players into a position where they would have to break the law in order to compete on equal terms.
The amphetamine comparison is on point, but I think that PED usage has had a more profound impact on the record book in a sport where the record book matters.
I guess in sum I would say that by acknowledging the success of known users by electing the top ones into the very coveted HOF, a tacit acknowledgement is made that cheating is tolerated and the users won out in the end.
blake
February 11th, 2010 at 11:26 pm
Looks like Damon might get his 2 years after all. Have no idea why the Tigers would offer that when nobody else has.. So much for them cutting payroll I guess.
—————————————————-
They must be bidding against the same mystery team that confronted the Cardinals in the Holliday deal.
Phil the Thrill “I think PED use was so prevalent that it created a level playing field. And I don’t believe the roid guys should be penalized…”
—————————-
I agree. But: MLBPA members who voted FOR stringent testing, spoke out against steroids, and never tested positive deserve bonus HoF consideration.
Players who were quiet and supported the union’s anti-testing stance were just as pro-steroids as the users.
“Phil the Thrill “I think PED use was so prevalent that it created a level playing field. And I don’t believe the roid guys should be penalized…”
If that were true then why was there such a spike in HR’s and runs scored during that time. If the playing field were level then wouldn’t you see more normal trends in these things?
I’ll eat your children.
Amphetamines would not necessarily make you any better a player than you would be if you weren’t tired.
They do not make you stronger. They erase fatigue.
I’m not saying it’s not cheating.
Many also believe that steroids have a negligible effect on baseball skills and that may or may not be true but where steroids have their greatest effect is in the weight room.
And that’s where all that power comes from. It’s cheating but with a degree of separation.
Maybe that’s how guys like McGuire rationalize it when they say it didn’t help them hit a baseball any better.
Joe,
The Hall of Fame has to recognize baseball history. Steroids couldn’t have happened to the extent they did without owner, management and indeed media support. Arod was chided for using the term “loosey goosey” but I can’t think of a better description of what things were like for the 25 more years of steroid ball. And as you recognize, there was amphetamine ball both before and concurrent with that, and both really help bat speed. So, who knows how the record books were effected by the amphetamines before roids even came around. I can’t remember if it was Willie Mays or Hank Aaron who was called Greenie by his teammates, but whichever Hofer it was, had over 659 homers.
blake,
no, you’d see the whole playing field raised but still be level.
When you are stronger and quicker you can let the ball travel farther before starting your swing, therefore allowing you to see it longer and read it better.
This is what made Bonds so lethal when he was on the juice. He had an unbelievably quick and short stroke to begin with, adding the juice to his natural ability made it nearly impossible to fool him or get pitches by him because he could wait forever before pulling the trigger. Manny also had this ability when he was on birth control and clearly lost some of it when he came back from his suspension.
Nick in SF…..Cal-Berkley Bears ( -5 ) was the best pick of the season, besides it’s time to ride them to the Sweet 16……Did you go tonight ????
the birth control was just a masking/recovery agent for Manny. Just like the Andro had been for McGwire. Guys can get estrified after a cycle of roids, ie, their body tries to compensat with some female hormones, so companies and doctors have come up with ways to combat that between cycles.
“no, you’d see the whole playing field raised but still be level.”
Didn’t seem so level for the pitchers except for a select few. I don’t think it was level for a couple of reasons. 1) contrary to popular belief not everyone was taking steroids 2) they affect players differently, greatly helping some and marginally helping others.
This is all subjective but since drug testing was implemented 30 HR’s actually means something again and the game has moved back to younger and more well rounded players. I like it.
I still wonder what % of players are still using.
“the birth control was just a masking/recovery agent for Manny”
I know that. Just poking a little fun at Manny being Manny.
I doubt many players if any at all are using actual steroids now. Its just too big of a risk with the testing. HGH is a whole different ballgame.
Blake,
Remember though, Manny didn’t get suspended for failing a drug test for a steroid. He was suspended for using a female hormore to restart his Testosterone production, circumstantially suggesting that he used steroids. His “people” claimed that he had passed numerous tests for steroids in the past. This would suggest the presence of some effective masking agents to hide his usage.
Of note, Sosa, Bonds, Giambi, Pudge, JuanGone, etc. never failed steroid tests that we know of. In other words, the science of concealment still appears to outpace the science of detection.
Additionally, has anyone been noting the continuing number of minor leaguers suspended for PED usage, especially Latinos? Perhaps they lack the financial resources or knowledge of masking agents?
blake,
but the games were still really competitive even allowing for the overexpansion which created a cycle of non-competitive team that still exists today. The league leaders were all bunched together in most cases with the exception of Bonds, who never needed them, but became an absolute immortal when he started taking them.
re: Thomas and Glavine.
Thomas should get in based on his numbers and the assumption that he was clean. However when I think of him, HOFer doesn’t really pop into my head for some reason.
Glavine has to get in because 300 wins is pretty much surest way to the HOF. You win 300 games then you have been really good for a long time. He did benefit from some pretty generous umpiring during his career but you can’t hold that against him, its not his fault the umps gave him 3 inches off the outside corner, he just exploited it very well.
Phil,
Should Bonds get into the HOF?
Joe,
Yeah, Bonds was a Hall of Famer before he ever decided to to take roids.
Joe, the key words are “that we know of” several of those guys you mentioned are rumored to have failed drug tests in the past, it just hasn’t been reported or leaked. Sosa and Bonds both have been mentioned as probably failing tests in 03.
Manny did get busted but after he was suspended 50 games I would hope players have wised up since then. My guess would be HGH has replaced steroids as the drug of choice for the guys that still use.
Phil,
That’s probably true, but we don’t know exactly when he started.
I would personally not vote for him based on the character clause of the HOF voting criteria. Bonds going into the HOF is a large, distasteful pill to swallow for me.
If Bonds doesn’t get in the HOF then its because the writers are carrying out an agenda against the steroid era. Bonds would have been one of the best players of all time if he had never touched the stuff. He was that good. Steroids made him a superhuman baseball player only because of the skills he already had beforehand. The other players in question (Mcgwire, Sosa, etc), you can’t say the same about.
Pat M, I didn’t attend the game (bad choice) but I watched and also made it the cornerstone of my evening investment strategy…for entertainment purposes only.
Cal has never won the Pac-10 outright; last championship was when it was still the Pac-8…it will be special once we get there.
Bonds will get in, maybe not on the first ballot, but his pre-steroid years will get him in.
Nick in SF…..They are getting ready to peak at the right time, they have top 10 talent easily……As for roids, some guys that I
As for roids ( before I interupted myself ), some guys I know who played in the late 80′s and the 90′s explained the difference quite clearly….Guys jiuced were swing aluminium bats while we were using wooden bats
“Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”
This is from the HOF’s own rules for election.
Notice the wording used. Integrity, sportsmanship, character. It’s not only based on performance.
But I wouldn’t get to much an an uproar about the HOf and PED’s getting all intermingled.
There’s only been 1 player so far that has had a HOF resume and has been involved in the steroids scandal.
And there will be a good handful of others coming in the years to come. And then there will be guys like Arod that wont be eligible until 2023 or something and it will rear it’s ugly head every once and a while.
But when we’re talking about the HOF we’re only talking about a couple of players a year at most.
Name the pitchers that will have problems getting in the HOF because of steroids.
That’s one guy. Clemens.
Sluggers?
5 players? 10 players max.
People talking about having a separate wing in the HOF for steroid users. You might need a closet to fit them all.
Notice the wording used. Integrity, sportsmanship, character. It’s not only based on performance.
————————————————————
Integrity and sportsmanship? Like Mountain Kennesaw Landis, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Rogers Hornsby, Adrian “Cap” Anson? That kind of integrity and sportsmanship?
Writers don’t follow any rules. They vote based on idiosyncratic preferences.
But if I had a vote, I would be more willing to vote for a suspected user who admitted it than one who hasn’t.
Nick in SF-
Check it out: http://laughingsquid.com/the-s.....s-stadium/
I’m sure you know Joe D played there way back when.
Well that’s certainly a good point and I guess it’s up to the voters/writers on how they wish to interpret those standards or if they want to enforce them at all.
But in the case of McGuire, it seems that they are applying them in so much as they may view a player who was involved in PED usage as not meeting those standards.
Personally, I think many of the guys that are doing the voting lack those qualities themselves so it’s ridiculous to give them the opportunity to judge others.
Thanks, Buddy, that’s very cool. I have crossed home plate without even knowing it.
The Double Play is a pretty cool bar right there and has lots of baseball memorabilia on display.
Former SF indie musician Barbara Manning was once in a band called The S.F. Seals.
That is pretty cool. Unfortunate that it’s in an office supply store.
And when we’re able to do the same thing for homeplate at the old Stadium? In the park?
I bet you it’ll be a popular spot for blazin’ one up.
Scores of great Yankees have smoked many a baseball into the grandstand and now you can smoke a bone in their honor from the very same spot.
Haha classic line
Winning 20 games 5 times is just crazy. That alone makes Glavine a HOFer, not to mention winning 300 in an era when that is very rare (and winning 20 while pitching to juiced up competition just makes it more impressive).
There was not a level steroids playing field. Like Jeter has said, not everyone used PEDs. So the players that played honest and did not use PEDs, their stats were made to look less impressive by the PED users, hurting their chance for league standings, awards, and HoF consideration. You can’t compare anyone from that era to their peers fairly. That is why I would never vote a player for the HoF that was proven to have used PEDs, or it was evident.
Well said by steveoh – and that is why I would never vote for a cheater that took PEDs for the HOF. Sad for A-Rod, but he and the rest of the cheaters can look from the outside and teach a generation why you don’t cheat.
Cash should be substantially fined for letting go 2 of the biggest winners from 2009. Granderson + Johnson = Non Clutch. Without JD and HM’s contributions, the NYY lose the WS plain and simple. Talk about delusional General Managing.
Delusional?
We’re World Champions. As long as we keep on winning, Ca$h can keep dreaming all he wants [as far as I am concerned].
Melkman, I agree on the clutch concern during the post season this year. But at somepoint you have to get younger. Just because Matsui had a great World Series and Damon has some clutch hits doesn’t mean Johnson and Gardy won’t be able to contribute. Remember, Damon also played a flyball into a triple!
There is no denying we will miss Johnny and Sui this year, but there is plenty of talent to pick up the slack. You can’t predict who will come up big, 2 of the Yankees walk offs wins were courtesy of Cervelli and Miranda, who would have guessed that?
Clemens, Bonds and Rodriguez will be like Rose – getting more attention, most times more than the Hall of Famers, for not being in.
The three players I mentioned don’t need the Hall of Fame for the bump in money it provides for some. They’ve made more than enough in contracts.
If you have a twisted sense of humor or a screw you attitude like Bonds that’s almost a thorn in the side. I’m not sitting here saying these three don’t want to be in the Hall of Fame and it won’t be a disappointment but every eligible year they should be in the Hall they will be talked about as opposed to those who are in.
Tala
the really unfortunate thing is those 3 players would have been in the HOF had they never used.
Melkman, most People think the lineup will be nearly as potent as last year with the addition of Granderson (whose numbers could spike with YS and a better lineup) and NJ who should feast on a steady diet of fastballs in the #2 hole.
Even if the lineup isn’t quite as good as 2009 the outfield defense and rotation should be significantly better and the team has gotten younger. The 2010 team could be just as good if not better than the 2009 team and will be younger and have some flexibility for next offseason. I say bravo cashman.
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....start.html
After playing catch with righthander Christian Garcia yesterday, Hughes chatted with pitching coach Dave Eiland, who told Hughes that he must commit to mastering his changeup, telling the 23-year-old “it’s a pitch that needs to be thrown.”
Hughes considers the change his fourth pitch right now and noted that its development has been hampered by injuries and his relief stint last season. He did not throw it as a reliever at all in ’09, he said, but he knows it’s a weapon against lefthanded hitters, especially those looking to pull a ball over the Stadium’s short porch in right.
“It’ll be a big focus for me this spring,” Hughes said. “I have to get used to throwing it. It may not be the most comfortable thing at first, but it’ll be a good pitch for me down the line. … Now is the time it needs to come back.”
****
I know Phil will get the changeup down at some point. It doesn’t have to be a great pitch for him, just a nice, solid one. I’m glad he’s going to work on it in ST, but it’s going to be hard to do that AND compete to win. After all, is he going to throw it in competition when every batter, every inning is important to him this spring?
The thing that Arod has going for him that no other PED involved player has before is that he was caught in the middle of his career rather than the end. He still has 10+ years to prove what Mcgwire claimed he could have done (performed the same without the drugs). If Arod stays clean and productive late in his career them that will go a long way towards repairing his legacy. Plus he has been more honest about his involvement than just about anyone else has.
The change is an important pitch for Hughes and I think he should be able to master it but The biggest key for Phil is his fastball command..its what made him great in the minors and was what made him great as a reliever last year. He got in trouble when he started missing spots in the playoffs.
I also hope he keeps the cutter in his aresenal and learns to use it the way Halladay does.
“Plus he has been more honest about his involvement than just about anyone else has”
That’s like being the thinnest guy at fat camp.
Blake, I agree. People talk velocity all the time, but I was just so impressed with how Phil was able to paint the corners. Now that he’s healthy, he should have no problemn doing that consistently. I think he likes the cutter, so I’m sure he won’t abandon it.
Blake-
IMO Hughes should learn the splitter rather than the traditional circle change.
Frank, lol, that is true but that’s better than the fattest kid in fat camp right?
Nick Johnson worked with K. Long this off season too.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....a6JJnCKOgI
MTU,
I think at Hughes’s age the change is a safer pitch.
Betsy, velocity is greatly overrated. Halladay pitches mostly in the low 90′s. Its all about deception and keeping the ball out of the middle of the plate.
From what I remember, Christian Garcia has a nasty changeup.
If not for injuries, he’d be with Hughes at every step in his development. maybe Phil could learn a thing or two from Chris, namely, his change-up.
Blake-
Splitter’s ARE another form of Changeup.
Easier to learn than a circle change IMO.
Less of a “feel” type of pitch.
that K Long is one busy guy
Edwar Ramirez has one of the best changeup’s as well. He throws a type of change called a “palmball”. I wish he would teach that pitch to Hughes.
kate-
That’s why his name is “Long” rather than “Short”.
Betsy, I saw that article in our Star Ledger this morning and immediately thought of you. You were the one saying he hadn’t been able to throw his change last season, to some disagreement, and I’d say this article would confirm what you said, no?
Anyway, if Eiland told him to throw his changeup, I think the Yankees will be looking at a lot of things when deciding who the #5 starter will be. It may not be as obvious as we may think based on watching the games alone.
I do wonder, though, if Phil does end up in the pen, at least to start the season, will they be looking for him to make the changeup part of his relief repertoire? It would seem silly for him to develop it during spring and then drop it again. I’m sure there could be times he could work it in in relief. Not as many, I guess, based on last season, but that might have been because he didn’t have the confidence in it. If he gets a good handle on it this spring, I think he could use it in relief.
MTU,
I know what a splitter is but many people still contend that it puts more stress on the arm than a regular circle change or straight change. If Phil is going to be successful he needs to be a feel pitcher. He doesn’t have (or hasn’t had) 95-96 as a starter. I’m just partial to the circle because I threw it maybe..
Some pitchers you may know who made effective use of the “palmball” :
Orlando Hernández
Trevor Hoffman
Roy Halladay
Jim Palmer
Satchel Paige
Blake-
Then you know that some guys just can’t master the circle change.
A “palmball” is kinds like a straight change in that you just choke the ball. You get the same arm speed but the ball comes out slower. It doesn’t give you the downward and left to right movement as much as the circle does. Both good pitches…just whichever works better for the individual
Blake-
Understood.
All I an suggesting is that Phil might be a better candidate
for a Palmball or splitter than a CC.
JMO
If there is no taint of steroids then Thomas should get in…the faintest whiff and he and whoever else should not. Very simple actually.
And by the way, IMHO a really good pitching coach does have a “one size fits all” approach to teaching pitching.
Adjustmnents need to be made for the individual.
Meant to say “does NOT have”. sorry.
MTU
You might have a point about the palmball being better for Hughes. Most guys that throw the circle use it as a out pitch and rarely throw it for a strike. You do have to account for the break more with it and because of the grip it takes some practice to control it.
so judging from last night’s blog conversation frank thomas becoming eligible for the hall of fame opened up a steroid conversation .
for what it’s worth , i watched him in the Cape Cod League when he was in college and he was a man among boys. just massive and physically mature.
http://www.minorleaguenetwork......LLPARK.jpg
when you look at his home run totals they didn’t spike up like mcguires. they stayed fairly consistent throughout his career.
unless something comes up in the next five years, i’d give him the benefit of the doubt.
Blake-
As has been pointed out here before pitches go in and out of “vogue” almost like fashion, or car design.
I think it’s important to keep an open mind about what works, or may have worked in the past.
I am all about being “practical” when it comes to teaching pitching.
And adjusting the approach to fit the pitcher in much the same way they may go about it with hitters.
Maybe Christian Garcia can teach Hughes the changeup.
If Garcia can only stay healthy we might be talking about him competing for a spot in the rotation this year.
I still think he goes to the pen because of the injury history.
It’s only speculation Randy. The conspiracist might say however that Thomas did play TE at Auburn and would have certainly be pushed to increase his size from an early age. Steroid usage was certainly widespread in college football at the time. A cover article on SI from about 1987 details the story of South Carolina DL Tommy Chaikin (worth reading if you have the time). Even without a focus on drug-testing, contemporary players such as LB George Mira Jr. of Miami and LB Brian Bosworth of OK were suspended for there use. In sum, the culture of usage was certainly present. Whether Thomas was a user is pure speculation barring more substantial evidence.
Doesn’t Garcia feature a “splitter” rather than a Circle change ?
Five-
“Maybe Christian Garcia can teach Hughes the changeup.”
As long as he doesn’t teach him his secrets for staying healthy along with it.
Canseco or someone else with knowledge and a diminishing bank account may have a book in them if a player currently unlinked to PEDs gets into the HOF.
New Post- Pinch hitting: Pete Colgan
I saw Frank Thomas in college and he was huge then. If he took stuff it would have been during that time, but who knows if he got a little help keeping that enormous body healthy and strong.
Steroids do nothing unless you work your butt off. I don’t share the high and mighty view many others have that guys who used were cheaters… they were part of an era where everyone involved in baseball; players, owners, managers, media, fans and the Commissioner’s Office rewarded guys for high power productivity and looked the other way on the PED issue.
I refuse to find “religion” now and retroactively support Hall of Fame bans and other punitive measures for pre-2004 PED use when there was no testing program or established system for punishment.
I have no problem with those who want to reduce or minimize the power stats of this era and put those players in the proper context. It’s why I would never vote for McGuire, Sosa, Thome or Palmeiro whose power stats are suspicious to me. Great players like Alex, Bonds and Clemens are/were great long before any suppossed/suspected “taint” and in the case of Alex, afterwards as well.
McGwire was guilty as sin and everyone knew it…and yet he still can’t come completely clean about his juicing. Given the egos of guys in the game, none of us will ever know for sure who did and who did not juice. All you can do is judge a player against his peers. Gwynn, Schmidt and Banks didn’t play in the steroid era, so don’t compare them to Thomas.
You can’t sweep the steroid era under the rug and play God with everybody you suspect used.
There were guys that used and still couldn’t play a lick.
Guys like Clemens, Bonds, and Arod are Hall of Famers. All the soapbox thumping in the world can’t change that fact.
In fact, you diminish and not enhance the HOF by keeping guys out everybody knows belongs in.
The solution is pretty simple. You just put on their plaque they either tested positive (if they did) or admitted (if they did) PED usage.
Its part of their permanent record and its part of the record of the game. As it should be.
Frank Thomas? He has never been suspected or whispered about as a steroid user.
Throwing around baseless allegations about players, and using the era as an excuse to do so, is why making a record of the era is needed. It takes the whisper campaign about players voters may not like personally out of play.
It’s a sad time we live in. If a man or woman runs the fastest time, they must be on some performance enhancing drug.
If a baseball player is big, bulky, and powerful, and hits a tremenous amount of HRs, he’s on some performance enhancing drugs.
I guess basketball, hockey havent’ figured out how to benefit from PEDs. Only in football is it unmentioned, but acceptable.
Great point, SJ.
Thomas was an outspoken critic of steroids, and testing advocate. Such guys are amazingly rare.
Anyone who voted or lobbied the MLBPA for strict testing deserves BONUS HoF consideration. They’re the only ones who were trying to keep the game clean.
Everyone else should be treated equally, admitted user or not.
the key word there is “caught”. get your head out of the sand.
You forget that most of the people that use that stuff do it for recovery purposes. Just being able to go out there every day and play basketball/hockey/football/baseball is extremely difficult and these drugs kept them on the field.
The people that “abused” the drugs are the home run hitters, the 270lb freak linebackers, they get the headlines. In reality, every sport and most of the athletes in them are using a PED in one form or another.
Moose > Glavine
Bring him back.
Bring him back twice.
This is what made Bonds so lethal when he was on the juice. He had an unbelievably quick and short stroke to begin with, adding the juice to his natural ability made it nearly impossible to fool him or get pitches by him because he could wait forever before pulling the trigger. Manny also had this ability when he was on birth control and clearly lost some of it when he came back from his suspension.
It’s only speculation Randy. The conspiracist might say however that Thomas did play TE at Auburn and would have certainly be pushed to increase his size from an early age. Steroid usage was certainly widespread in college football at the time. A cover article on SI from about 1987 details the story of South Carolina DL Tommy Chaikin (worth reading if you have the time). Even without a focus on drug-testing, contemporary players such as LB George Mira Jr. of Miami and LB Brian Bosworth of OK were suspended for there use. In sum, the culture of usage was certainly present. Whether Thomas was a user is pure speculation barring more substantial evidence.
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