Friendly rivals
Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Feb 12, 2010 
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Although the official report date is still a few days away, there are several Yankees already in Tampa working out and getting a jump on spring training. Two of them are Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain – friends, to be sure, but also rivals for the fifth-starter competition that will play out over the next six weeks or so.
Hughes told a few reporters that he is “out of the reliever mindset” for now and focusing on sharpening his repertoire. He also guessed that his innings limit, if he does win the job, will be around 175 — which shouldn’t be a problem since off-days during the season would allow the Yankees to skip the fifth starter spot a few times.
The most interesting thing about Hughes’s candidacy will be how well he’s able to improve his change-up. Dave Eiland made a point of stressing its importance to Hughes and right now it’s obviously his fourth pitch; he barely threw it at all in 2009 since it wasn’t necessary when he was working out of the bullpen. Obviously that’ll have to change if he’s a starter.
The Joba vs. Phil debate figures to be a fascinating aspect of spring training, and you can make strong cases for both guys. Everyone – from team officials to teammates to fans – will be watching every pitch each guy throws, and both already know that they’re the other’s main competition.
“It’s kind of one of those things that really doesn’t need to be said,” Hughes said.
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By the way: For those, who love the Yankees and casinos (not necessarily in that order), the World Series trophy is coming to the Mohegan Sun in Connecticut tonight and tomorrow.
The Trophy will be on display tonight at 5:30 p.m. at the Connecticut Sports Foundation Dinner. On Saturday, it will be on display and available for the public to take pictures just outside of the Box Office in The Shops at Mohegan Sun from 11:00 a.m. – 3:00 p.m. For additional information, call (888) 226-7711.
Young Master Hughes v Joba the Hut?
I’m all for Joba…tired of the innings limit BS.
Let him go out and try and if he fails in the first half, he is obvioulsy better suited for the pen at which point you transition Hughes to the rotation if feasible. Otherwise, give it to Mitre or Gaudin and go into 2011 with Joba as Mo’s heir apparent and Hughes as the 5th rotation spot.
End of story.
With any luck, they’ll both shake out as starters.
By the way: I totally understand the concerns about the new look in the comments. As someone mentioned on the previous thread, this is the time of year when we want to try out a few things. If it stinks, we’ll get rid of it – but better to give things a shot now than in the middle of the season. Please send all your thoughts to Jeff (jmarx@lohud.com) – that’s better than posting in the comments here because it ensures that the guy who runs the tech ops here will see them.
Thanks for everything you guys do and for caring about how we present the product here. Your thoughts and opinions are always valued.
Curious if heaven forbid one of the other starters get injured if Hughes and Joba would both be in the rotation? Or would they go with Gaudin/Mitre etc?
At this point, I think both have potential as starters. I can see not wanting to have 2 young starters in the rotation at the beginning of the season after the disaster of ’08, but I think by the end of the season or by next year, they will both be starters.
This will be an exciting competition to watch. Obviously I hope Phil wins the 5th spot, but I really hope both of them do very well – that’s the most important thing. I truly believe that Phil will get that changeup to a point where it can be a relatively dependable pitch for him. It doesn’t have to be his best pitch, just something he can use. I admit it, I can’t wait to see him pitch again. I love his combination of command and velocity (he’s not a soft-tosser, which many fans almost seem to think he is just because he doesn’t hit 97 MPH). His command at times last year was ridiculous – he was fun to watch. I’m also looking forward to seeing Phil work on his curve. He’s got a deadly one at times, but he didn’t use it much in the pen; I hope that changes this year.
how about the loser of the 5th man sweepstakes gets traded to milwaukee with brett gardner and 2 or 3 AAA arms for ryan braun?
Hopefully they won’t both be starters by the end of the season because that would mean someone has gotten hurt. Next year, that would be ideal
Blake, are you talking about the beginning of the year or during the year? If during the year – I don’t see how Phil or Joba (whomever is in the pen) can be stretched out in time to replace that pitcher unless that pitcher is out for a long time. If the beginning, if it’s only a couple of starts, go with Gaudin. If more than that, then it has to be Phil or Joba.
“how about the loser of the 5th man sweepstakes gets traded to milwaukee with brett gardner and 2 or 3 AAA arms for ryan braun?”
Doubt the Brewers would be too excited about that.
over/under on joba wins 10
I’m sure the Brewers can’t wait to do that.
Like the Derek Jeter contract talks, this is just an overblown, overdone story to me.
The Yankees have 2 outstanding young arms. The first time in ages the franchise can say this about guys on the 25 man roster.
However it turns out, its all good to me.
I really don’t care who is the fifth starter, setup guy to Mo, or whatever else happens with these guys.
As long as they are developing and contributing to Yankee wins, its all good to me.
There is no loser in this battle when you have 2 solid arms like this on your roster.
35 holds
gotta be over
“how about the winner & loser of the 5th man sweepstakes gets traded to milwaukee with jesus montero, brett gardner and 2 or 3 AAA arms for ryan braun?”
Fixed that for ya
Betsy, I was more talking about early in the year and if the injury meant the other starter would be out awhile. There is a chance that the loser of the 5th spot will be sent to AAA anyway to stay stretched out in the event of that.
Hopefully we won’t have to worry about such things and hopefully both Joba and Hughes will stay in the big leagues because they make the team better and are a waste in the minors IMO.
A voice of reason !
how about if romine is thrown in as well – have you seen who they have at catcher? the only reason i said this (i too think its crazy to trade braun and would rather keep hughes and joba but not if either will remain in the bullpen) is i figured they would be able to pay both fielder and braun 15 – 20 million apiece in 2 to 3 years..
they would “NOT” be able
As long as both stay in the big leagues I’m fine with it. I see no point in sending the loser down because whoever that may be could be an essential piece of the bullpen. I think its more important to help the Yankees in 2010 than it is to stay stretched out in the event of injury. JMO
I’ve lodged my most official complaint about this new blog format being balls. Respond to this thread if you agree
so you think ryan braun is worth more than roy halladay? doesn’t pitching win championships and decent left fielders come a dime a dozen?
SJ44 says: February 12th, 2010 at 3:15 pm
The Yankees have 2 outstanding young arms. The first time in ages the franchise can say this about guys on the 25 man roster…
There is no loser in this battle when you have 2 solid arms like this on your roster.
***************************************
My sentiments exactly. With CC, AJ, and possibly another front-line free agent in 2011 (can you spell Lee), we could be looking at a formidable rotation headlining a dynasty run for the next three to four years.
Was trying to read a Newsday blog post about Hughes and his thoughts on the ST competitition. Of course, I couldn’t read the article post beyond the first sentence because it required a subscription!
I would really like ST to be over and let the games begin. Of course, that’s oversimplifying the whole “process.”
I do hope, though, that Phil wins the job. I would love to see if he can take what he gained from his experience last season and apply it to being a starter. The main thing is he stay healthy.
I also hope that Gardner can show enough on offense to become an everyday player. The outfield alignment will be interesting. The lineup. And of course, the bench.
Jerkface, I’m not a fan either
FTR, I didn’t mean to imply I would do that trade, but that you’re going to have to give up score of talent for Ryan Braun. To answer your question, yes I would choose him over Roy Hallady all things considered. He’s a 26 year old 5-win player who is under team control through 2015 (with well-below market salaries). So to even consider referring to him as a “decent left fielder” that would “come a dime a dozen” is completely off base. My original statement was somewhat hyperbolic, I hope your’s was too.
He is way more than a decent leftfielder.
Did Hughes ever start his blog back up?
I’m pretty surprised they’re still operating behind a pay wall. It would be interesting to see how their readership has changed. Given today’s vast wealth of freely available material, analysis, information, commentary, etc., what makes Newsday think their content merits the cost of a subscription? Even if it did, I wouldn’t purchase it because I certainly wouldn’t want to encourage that trend.
The daily news has a similar story. I’m sure all the quotes are the same. Check it out…
no, I just checked the other day, and it was inactive
Yeah, me too. Thanks Kate.
Ok (and sorry) yes he’s a top 5 leftfielder – i agree – but for arguments sake – Joba, romine & 3 AAA arms couldn’t get you at least to the trade table for braun? he’s good but he’s not that good – halladay brought back way less than that, plus can milwaukee afford two 15-20 million contracts (fielder and braun)
and my apologies for the dime a dozen comment – what i meant is its easier to get an above average outfielder (as a FA) than it is to get a #1 or #2 starter (assuming joba or hughes will be that)..heck next year you have 2 available for just money….
Easily the premiere LF in all of baseball. First three years in MLB the guy has posted OPS’s of 1.004, .888, .937. He’s truly an elite young talent…it will be interesting to see how his career with the Brewers works out.
tk,
Agreed. I mean, I can understand their news and stuff being for pay. But a blog? The Times will be headed in that direction, but I hope they keep the Bats blog free of charge.
What the hell is going on in here? I leave for the night and all hell breaks loose. Whant all the blue stuff on some peoples post? Everyone here knows when it comes to computer stuff and posting i cant chew and walk at the same time. Now this?
Sam,
Are you guys getting paid per letter? says and reply = more commission? Dont fix what isnt broke.
Not sure what to do to send this. Here goes nothing.
Who is talking in the blue and white posts? How did that happen?
Yeah, I figured the same thing. It’s just that it said that Phil was out of…
Just went back to get the exact quotes, but the page I requested can’t be found.
what’s the weather like on your planet?
it’s a new format they are trying so you can reply more easily to another commenter
S.o.S-
They’re trying out a new format. If it’s not popular it disappears. Not to worry.
A top 5 left fielder? he’s the best offensive outfielder in baseball…
Yeah… just make this page a mess like you did with the last one, great idea.
I figured the dime a dozen was in gist. Anyways, I really don’t think Joba, Romine and 3 AAA arms would get any consideration from the Brewers. If Joba continued to pitch the way he did when he first came up this would obviously be a different discussion. As it stands right now, he carries way too much risk to be the centerpiece of that deal. Imagine if he continued his inconsistency from last year…Romine would probably be considered an average catcher, the AAA arms would be considered slightly above average to below average. OTOH, Braun has proven himself to be an elite offensive player at the major league level. Plus, his salary isn’t much of a concern: ’10-$1M, ’11-$4M, ’12-$6M, ’13-$8M, ’14-$10M, ’15-$12M. Put it all together, and he’s an absolutely amazing value.
Agreed a thousand times over.
So thats what the bold reply is for? That sort of sucks. That means you have to continue to go up and down this page all day long. Rather than the line continueing to move smoothly down the page. April fools is a month away. Sam or whoever is in charge needs to go back to the old system that worked. As you can tell i hate change just for doing it.
Hopefully by monday, this nightmare will be over.
I think it’s a complete waste to have either one of these arms in the pen until they prove they can’t start. If the Yankees don’t want two kids in the rotation, they should have traded one of them. Talk about these talented arms heading the rotation is very, very premature because I don’t know when we’ll ever see both of them in the rotation at the same time.
I bow to you… but here’s a follow up question – if joba puts it all together this year and becomes the pitcher we’ve seen glimpses of – would you then make a straight up trade joba for braun…or do you think that pitching wins championships…
S.o.S.: this is what happens when you complain too much about L
ST.
You’re lucky the blog didn’t go all black after you complained about the Sopranos.
Pencil me in fellas. I think if they cant change the format, just keep doing what your doing.
DONT PRESS THE BOLD BUTTON!! Again. Stay away from the R button. If they cant fix it, it will fix itself.
Quoted replies in a highly active blog makes no sense. This is a forum feature. In a very active game thread no one is going to look back at their prior comments to reply to a reply
Nick,
I shouldnt have said that they are all going to wake up from a dream and non of it ever happened. Its your fault for bringing it up.
Close enough. It went blue.
I mentioned this while doing just the opposite in one of these posts.
DONT PRESS THE BOLD BUTTON!! Again. Stay away from the R button. If they cant fix it, it will fix itself.
We’ve seen this before two years ago when Cashman tried to force two unproven youngsters into the starting rotation (Kennedy and Hughes) and the Yankees ended up missing the playoffs. Rather than try to force these two pitchers who have established themselves as excellent relievers and, so far, ineffective starters, I voted for signing cheap, but high ceiling, veterans such as Wang and Bedard. It would have taken the pressure off of Chamberlain and Hughes who would have been fill-ins until those two came back and, if Chamberlain or Hughes did happen to make it, then you had a happy problem. Instead, we’re back to putting a lot of pressure back on Hughes and Chamberlain, again. There’s nothing wrong with Hughes and Chamberlain as relievers, by the way. They’re very good at it. There’s no reason to try to force a square peg into a round hole unless you’re Yankee management who just doesn’t seem to get it. Hoping somebody will get the job done is a lot different than properly planning to put the right pieces in the right places to get the job done.
Quoted replies in a highly active blog makes no sense. This is a forum feature. In a very active game thread no one is going to look back at their prior comments to reply to a reply.
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Good point. This format would be appreciated at Pete A. blog not this successful one.
Trading one of them is a kneejerk reaction and solves nothing.
A big reason why they won the World Series last year is Hughes going to the bullpen. It turned the pen around, made Hughes a huge factor in winning, and gave the kid a dose of much needed success and confidence at the big league level.
Both guys are young enough to handle whatever is thrown their way.
They are 2 of the 12 best pitchers on the team. Sending one of them to AAA is a waste.
Its about doing what’s best for the team to help them win games.
It worked last year and, if needed, will work with this.
Cashman said it best about both of them…”We have 2 starters who have shown they can pitch out of the bullpen”.
Its a win-win situation for the Yankees.
It does seem like we’ve been waiting on that forever, but I’m pretty confident it will become a reality next year. There’s definitely an argument to be made that the Yankees have squandered a good portion of their valuable service time, but these guys are still young (24, 23) and have so much potential in front of them. I don’t think they will be expected to head the rotation for some time, but I can see them slotting in at #3/#4 behind CC and Lee(!?) next year. If that comes to pass, I promise these concerns will quickly become a distant memory.
I have to admit though. I do miss the days you could do BLOCKQUOTES. It made me feel advanced.
Betsy -Romine wasn’t built in a day says: February 12th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
I think it’s a complete waste to have either one of these arms in the pen until they prove they can’t start. If the Yankees don’t want two kids in the rotation, they should have traded one of them. Talk about these talented arms heading the rotation is very, very premature because I don’t know when we’ll ever see both of them in the rotation at the same time.
**************************************
Betsy, you’re right, if the rotation remains static throughout the season. Recent history shows that it has not been the case.
Not one to predict injury or unfulfilled expectations by any starter, you have the “winner,” Joba or Hughes start, while the other serves as a long man bridge to Rivera. During this time, the “loser” works on getting his third and maybe forth pitch over in game situations.
In 2011, we’re liable to see either or both Pettitte and Vazquez move on. Both Joba and Hughes should have by then fine tuned their arsenals.
Wang can’t pitch until June. Both Hughes and Chamberlain are better pitchers than Wang right now.
There is no pressure on either guy. Its the fifth starters slot. Not exactly a front end position on the team.
Bedard, like Wang is coming off his second shoulder operation, hates NY, and would be a cancer in that clubhouse.
Signing 2 guys coming off surgery,when you have better alternatives in house, isn’t being smart. Its being dumb.
Thankfully, Cashman isn’t dumb.
Gardner hasn’t mowed his noggin since the end of the season. Worked on some bunting over the winter. And hit the cages with Jeetah.
http://www.nydailynews.com/blo.....inued.html
Aw, I as hoping for a picture of Gardner.
speaking of hair
who on here thinks johnny damon will go back to being captain caveman with the tigers?
ortforshort, I don’t think the Kennedy and Hughes of 2008 are comparable to the Joba & Hughes of 2010.
The latter now have serious innings (mostly in relief, I agree) under their belts at the major league level.
What’s more, they have most likely matured regarding developing their pitches, conditioning and overthrowing, which led both to minor injuries.
Since it seems that both the FO and Girardi are bent on having both in the rotation at some point, I am sure we are seeing the fruition of their plan, which has seemed awkward at best until now with the handling of Joba Rules.
The bridle is now off with Joba, and Hughes (I read) has a limit of 175 in 2010. Priming both for 2011 appears doable.
you know, I hadn’t even thought about that!
Everything I referenced in our discussion can be found at either Fangraphs or Cot’s Contracts. That’s the beautiful thing about the information age, you don’t need to know anything, just where to find it
Joba would have to be utterly dominant before I would hestitate to trade him for Braun. Like you, I place a high value on front of the rotation pitchers, but the inconsistency Joba has shown in the past along the high risk of injury for pitchers would prompt me to choose Braun. The Yankees are likely to sign at least one expensive free agent next year, so would you rather end up with Braun & Cliff Lee or Joba & Crawford/Werth (+ cash?)?
Damon will go back to being an idiot or whatever they called themselves.
It would also be great to see Joba take his experiences from last season and apply them to starting in 2010.
Honestly, I’d like to see what both pitchers could do as regular starters.
Either/or is hopefully just a temporary situation (and a record by Elliott Smith).
may the Force be with them both
c’mon now sos – just remember the good times with johnny – he made a mistake this offseason and he’ll probably pay for it the next 2 years…these are direct quotes from JD himself (by way of Lynnard Skynard)
If I leave here tomorrow
Would you still remember me?
For I must be traveling on, now,
‘Cause there’s too many places I’ve got to see.
But, if I stayed here with you, fans,
Things just couldn’t be the same.
‘Cause I’m as free as a bird now,
And this bird you can not change.
Oh… oh… oh… oh… oh…
And the bird you cannot change.
And this bird you cannot change.
Lord knows I can’t change.
Bye, bye, baby it’s been a sweet love.
Yea, yea
Though this feeling I can’t change.
But please don’t take it so badly,
‘Cause the lord knows I’m to blame.
But, if I stayed here with you fans,
Things just couldn’t be the same.
Cause I’m as free as a bird now,
And this bird you can not change.
Oh… oh… oh… oh… oh…
And this bird you cannot change.
And this bird you cannot change.
Lord knows, I can’t change.
Lord help me, I can’t change.
Lord I can’t change,
I love the new style comments…feels like RAB….for the more discerning(older)
blog reader
Newsday is a Charles Dolan/Cablevision production. FU is their modus operandi. From the Garden and its teams to Newsday, you get less quality and pay extra for the right. The paper is hardly worth reading anymore. I went to Direct TV when they locked out YES at its inception and I haven’t turned back. I wish FIOS would wire my block so I could dump their internet also.
Joba & Hughes now have 222IP and 141IP as starters at the major league level now. Each also has about 20 innings out of the bullpen. I understand that the approach for getting to this point has been awkward, but like you said, this is no comparison for Kennedy & Hughes. There is no reason Joba shouldn’t be able to stay in the rotation and perform as one of the AL’s best #5′s and likewise, Hughes should prove very valuable out of the pen.
Johnny’s leaving cos he’s free as a bird and this bird you cannot change?
Maybe.
Or maybe tramps like him are born to run.
Or maybe he’s buying a stairway to heaven.
He can’t get no satisfaction right now.
Whatever the reason, I hope he won’t get fooled again.
It’s amazing to me that you guys are handling this “threaded” thing like children, just as you do with other things(matsui, damon, the need to sign every available FA). At least 10 other websites that I check on a regular basis have a system ‘exactly’ like this one, and they survive just fine. You know what screws it up? People trying to rebel against the system, purposely misuse it and not reply to things properly.
So in order to follow up a conversation you have to go back to your original post, instead of just going to the bottom of the page? This is a “you are lazy” problem, not an actual problem.
Does the format of this look like garbage? Sure… the box in a box in a box thing looks bad but that can be adjusted ALOT easier than rewriting the entire comments section to reorder them. The discussions also won’t be so ridiculously nested and large to achieve the tiny box thing you all worked so hard on in the last post.
It may not ideal, but it’s infinitely better than 1 long list of comments, with 17 conversations going on in the middle of each other. Something tells me that they will keep working on this, so calm your pants.
i would choose lee over joba/crawford/werth regardless but if braun were attached to lee – it would be like dying and going to baseball heaven
While I do not think the Yankees should trade Joba or Hughes at this point, Hughes was not a big reason they won the WS. The Yankees won 103 games in the regular season and the division by 8 games. Hughes had very little impact on that.
If anything the Yankees had to overcome Hughes’ poor performance in the playoffs when he blew one game and got bailed out in another.
That was also 2 years ago, and neither of them are as green as kennedy and hughes were that year.
Absolutely. As has been repeatedly stated, both Hughes and Joba are both young (23, 24) and versatile (as starters, long and short relievers) and could be interchangeable in 2010 as starters, hopefully without wrecking either one as a starter.
How that’s done, now there’s the rub. Yankees’ baseball minds will prevail!
This is just narrowminded. Hughes shutting down the 8th inning in 80 something appearances had no effect on their 103 wins? Then you site one bad performance in the playoffs as reason for him not to be there?
There is a concept I would like you to read up on, it’s called “small sample size”.
It’s always good to calm your pants, especially at Chinese New Year!
I can’t picture Gardner with longer hair. He couldn’t have gotten a picture?!!!! lol
you people are really losing it over this.
Betsy
some of the best pitchers in the game have started in the pen. In fact Guidry spent a yr and a half in the Yanks pen before they turned him loose in the ‘ro. How’d that work out?
Johan Santana pitched out of the pen for parts of 2 seasons for the Twins before they moved him in the ‘ro for good. Did it stunt his development as a pitcher?
As far as comparing the possibilty of Joba and Hughes being in the ‘ro at the same time this season to ’08 with IPK and Phil it doesn’t pass the smell test. Joba has 37 legit starts and 7 abbreviated starts under his belt whereas Phil and Ian combined had 10 together at the big league level heading into that season.
And as far as Joba being failed so far in his career as a starter that’s a false perception as well as his era as a starter over his 43 starts is 4.18 and if you remove the 2 and 3 inning starts from aug. and sept. of last yr it’s a 3.61. Someone please explain to me how a 23yr old kid with less than a full season in the minors and who has been jerked back and forth between the pen and the ‘ro with rules,pitch count limits and innings limits pitching in THE toughest division in THE toughest league in the game with those kinds of #’s has failed?
wow thats a tough question..
assuming I can get the dominant joba – i think i would go with joba/crawford (or werth) – only because the total salary of the 2 would be in the 15 million range (13 for crawford and 1-2 for joba) versus 20+ million for the other choice (17 million for lee + whatever braun would get)..
if i get the iffy joba then i go with lee/braun and salary concerns begone…
Ditto.
I suggested to the IT guy that they should change the color to the comments posted within the last 5 minutes. So at least then you know whats most recent and can scroll appropriately.
But for the record my pants are very calm
Btw-
I am strongly considering changing my blog name to Simon just so I can be “Simon Says”
Over 70 minor leaguers already showed up to get a jump on the season.
For the right guy you have to be willing to trade whichever of Joba or Hughes goes to the pen.
A reliever is worth only so much. Particularly one which won’t be a closer.
If you could get back a young, cost-controlled corner outfielder you have to do the deal. Even if you have to sweeten the pot from the Yank side.
However, if the Yanks could do such a deal, they probably already would have.
hehehehehe
You totally should!
I set my DVR for the Sesame Street cake thing on Sunday night-it sounds really cool. I can’t wait-thanks again for letting me know about it!
Did you ever consider that a lot of people who comment regularly here do so because they don’t like the thread system at other sites?
Sure. I missed it the first time it was on back in November and have been anxiously searching for Food network to replay it since. So excited!!!!
Oh and the new format is still hard on the eyes.
DYD, Phil as set up man (or Joba, but I think it will be Phil) will not be using his 3rd or 4th pitches. He seemed to drop the curve as the season went on as is. Ideally he’d be used as a long-man as this way he could go through lineups more than once and use his pitches, but I don’t think he’d get enough work.
so stairways to heaven go for roughly 14 million? I’ll have to start saving my pennies
Also, I never had any particular problem keeping track in my head of 17 different conversations. I don’t really need little graphical boxes to do it for me.
Sweeet. I live like 15 minutes from Mohegan. I’ll be there tomorrow morning!
Excellent points. Joba finished the season in such horrendous fashion that we have trouble looking beyond that. From August on Joba pitched 46.2 innings with a 7.52 ERA and a .913OPS against. That is just staggerinly bad, but it shouldn’t make us forget the circumstances and successes you pointed out.
I apologize if there’s a thread for this somewhere but…… This is way too busy a forum for threaded comments. Trying to read down in comments was time consuming but reading up, down and back a thread or 2 makes it less fun.
Following along in real time might be easier but catching up after a day away was dizzying. I quit reading after a few minutes and just jumped to the end.
You can’t speak to whether dealing one of them solves anything without context. It all depends on what you get back, at what price.
lee is going to be 32, bra
Here’s one problem, in addition to others pointed out. Commenters are a generally unruly bunch. There must be five or six threads dealing here dealing with trading Joba or Phil. Let’s say you want to reply, in which thread do you post a response? No matter where you do, fewer people are going to read your response because they will be focusing on the thread in which they posted a comment.
If fewer interested people read each comment, the comment section is bound to be less dynamic.
There should be one central thread for Phil/Joba nonsense, then fresh threads for stuff that hasn’t already been beaten to death.
I completely agree. It’s kind of a hassle to have to keep reading up. At first I thought it would just take some getting used to, and maybe that is the case, but I’m still not crazy about it.
Wave
the point is that if whoever goes to the pen isn’t just a reliever. The yanks wouldn’t view them that way and neither would other organizations. If Hughes spends another year in the pen he wouldn’t all off a sudden be valued like Scott linebrink or Kiko Calero or Micheal Weurtz. None of those guys have the ceiling of a front end starter.
Betsy
If Hughes spends another year in the pen he wouldn’t be forbidden from throwing his curve or his slider in game situations an could continue to develop his change as well on the side and in game situations to lefties if he’s got a good one. There are many relievers who throw a change up out of the pen. He has to master it in his side sessions before he would use it in game situations either starting or relieving.
I want to say over. Over makes me feel good. But I think it’s under.
Maybe the blog can reach some sort of compromise. For example, regular commenting style for Yankee topics, but a unique thread for Muppet comments.
The Mad Prince in Pinstripes says:
February 12th, 2010 at 3:02 pm
I’m all for Joba…tired of the innings limit BS.
Let him go out and try and if he fails in the first half, he is obvioulsy better suited for the pen at which point you transition Hughes to the rotation if feasible. Otherwise, give it to Mitre or Gaudin and go into 2011 with Joba as Mo’s heir apparent and Hughes as the 5th rotation spot.
End of story.
With any luck, they’ll both shake out as starters.
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Hughes is correct about being on target for 165-175 innings in 201-. It’s hardly an innings limit. How many #5 pitchers do you know that pitch over 170 innings, anyway? Out of 150 starting pitcher spots, only 69 pitchers even reached 170 innings. Only two of them had 4 pitchers reach 170…Colorado and Detroit.
Betsy, I agree, keeping Phil in the pen should not be as the eight inning man as in 2009.
But being a long man should not exclude him from being brought in for an inning or two in certain situations. I can’t see this all being a problem in the first half of the season.
And without wishing any starter misfortune, we have seen that the rotation rarely has stayed static throughout the season: tired arms, minor injuries, peaks and valleys during the present opportunities for a sixth starter.
2010 should give both Hughes and Joba the final year they need to reach the potential we’ve been hearing about for the last few years. In 2011, they will surely not be competing for the fifth spot.
And I lodged my praise. I totally understand that the majority here today aren’t into it and i’ll respect that if it goes back to the steamroller format. But it’s not a bad format, just different.
don’t you know- everyone loves Muppets!!!
It wouldn’t be so bad if they aired all of the ST games on YES. But for some reason we get like 2 a week for a month.
The problem is the cost-controlled clock on both Hughes and Joba is ticking, and every year one of them doesn’t start they lose huge amounts of overall value to the Yanks.
Whoever doesn’t start this year loses at least 1/3 of their potential to the Yanks as a starter, plus more because they will need time to ramp up to a full starter work load.
Once we have to pay market price for them, they might as well be anybody.
It didn’t seem “broke” before and it doesn’t seem fixed now. I prefer the free flow to reply type discussion.
pat,
It’s the opposite for me. In real time, there’s not much happening. If it’s happening, I’m blissfully unaware as I’m not going to troll up and down looking for a fish, so to speak.
So I took a break, came back, and read through the 100+ comments like I did in the old format. In a linear fashion.
Most relief pitchers rely on two pitches because that is all that they have. They are two pitch pitchers without a reliable or even league average third pitch and as such are failed starters. But in the case of Phil for instance if he develops a above average and his slider and curve are plus pitches then he would be even more devastating theoretically as hitters would have absolutely no idea what to look for late in games.
Hay Wave, it’s Phil Phranchise and Joba Rules (the mound). They’re ours; not just any other pitcher.
If they hit their potential, they’ll be worth their weight in Cash money.
I thought Johnny Damon talking smack to the press about Hughes was what he needed?
Yes, hay is for horses. No offense intended. ***Hey***
Famous last words…
i haven’t been here in a while, but like the new format (i’m guessing we’re talking about the ‘reply’ button?)
it lets me know when to skip over comments/bickering that i don’t really care about…
New format, same absurd comments from Let’s go Yankees….Hughes was criticval to the club’s success last season……Do you watch ballgames and just pick out segments that have some appeal to you ???? Honestly I sometimes wonder about you…There are times when you display sound knowledge and understanding of the game, then you pop off some with some off the wall comments…..
You remind me of Family Guy sometimes Nick.
i can’t believe there are complaints on the new format. first facebook, now this
If Phil lost out on the competition, I would rather he go to Scranton.
I know it’s not going to happen because they’ve already proclaimed that the one who lost out would go to the bullpen, but that would be my preference even though it would use up an option and he would be a big asset in the bullpen.
Being that the yanks value these things differently than most all other clubs I disagree with this p.o.v.
Their values to the Yanks is measured in their ability to contribute to winning championships in whatever roles they are asked to perform and each have already achieved that.
The Yanks are not like most teams where their value is measured by the total # of league average or better innings that can be extracted from Joba or Phil for the cheapest cost.
If Hughes for example spent the next 3 seasons in the pen and the Yanks won 2 or 3 more rings and Hughes left and signed elsewhere as a starter the Yanks would be more than happy with his services in pinstripes.
The entire team acknowledged Hughes played a big role in last years success. The bullpen settled into roles when he took over the 8th inning and the team soared.
To say he had little to do with that success flies in the face of the reality of what took place.
Champ, that pov assumes the Yanks are always going to win.
My point is that if the Yanks can trade an asset they are underutilizing (which will be true for whichever of the 2 is in the pen) for an asset that has more usefulness, controlling for cost, then they ought to do it.
SJ, Has Tony reported to camp yet ??? He should keep a running diary of this experience, they’ll be time he’ll want to share this with his kids…..Looking forward to your comments about his first day in a Big League camp…..
Phil the Thrill says:
February 12th, 2010 at 5:15 pm
There should be one central thread for Phil/Joba nonsense, then fresh threads for stuff that hasn’t already been beaten to death.
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You mean that there should only one thread on what subject and where people should post?
Phil would still need to go through the order at least twice to learn the discipline of mixing up his pitches in game situations. He would therefore need to be a long man at some point.
I think Joba could get away with developing an off-speed pitch to mix in with his plus slider. Joba got into trouble b/c hitters were sitting on his slider as his out pitch.
He would not then need to work on a curve, thus saving his arm some wear and tear.
IIRC Hughes was lights out until about September, when he lost some of his edge and pin-point accuracy.
Robertson then stepped up, and both he and Marte stepped up in the PS.
Basically just for the Phil/Joba stuff so it doesn’t overwhelm the threads like it’s been doing on and off for the few seasons.
I believe this new format is called “nested” commenting, or “nesting”.
Well everyone knows what “nesting” is for.
Phil the Thrill says:
February 12th, 2010 at 5:56 pm
Basically just for the Phil/Joba stuff so it doesn’t overwhelm the threads like it’s been doing on and off for the few seasons.
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How about just keeping all of your complaints in one section so that they can be skipped over more easily?
MTU says:
February 12th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
I believe this new format is called “nested” commenting, or “nesting”.
Well everyone knows what “nesting” is for.
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Yeah…it’s for some of the eggs that get laid in here and for collecting the bird droppings.
Nesting is what expectant mothers instinctually do when they get closer to their due date.
M-
“Nesting is what expectant mothers instinctually do when they get closer to their due date.”
A very pregnant comment !
Sad new from the Olympics. From the nation of Georgia, one of their lugers died after crashing into a metal pole just off of the course. He was 21 years old and travelling over 90 MPH.
Wave, I’d argue that the one starter/one in the pen system may not last all 2010, and should prepare them both finally to be in the rotation for the entirety of 2011.
Of all the young arms in the entire system, they are both ones that you would want to pan out as mainstays of the rotation.
GB-
“Yeah…it’s for some of the eggs that get laid in here and for collecting the bird droppings.”
I try to recycle the NY Times for the bird droppings.
Can i have mine changed from S.o.S. says, shhh S.o.S. speaks.
Thank you?
Please please PLEASE let Hughes just go to AAA after ST! Obviously Joba’s the only one of the two who’s ready for a full season workload, I think pretty much all hell would have to break loose for him to lose that job, but I REEEALLY hope Hughes doesn’t waste his time in the bullpen. He’s basically had two full years worth of starting in the minors in his career. Just give him another year. If nobody in the rotation gets injured, then the team will still survive w/out hughes on it. The bullpen looks excellent as it is – Mo/Robertson/Marte/Aceves/Gaudin should be a perfectly capable corps. If we just let Hughes spend all of 2010 in AAA (or come up in the pretty likely event of an injury), then in 2011 we won’t have to go through the innings issues again, and he’ll also have had a whole other year’s worth of time developing his repertoire.
I do think his time spent in the ‘pen in ’09 was valuable – allowing him to focus on only one batter at a time helped him turn a quality FB and curve into quality out-pitches, which will come in handy when he needs a K as a starter. But to do that again would, I would think, be pretty unnecessary, especially when it comes at the expense of developing stamina that he’ll need as a starter next year. For all we know, Hughes could be called upon to be the 4th starter next year (though I don’t see it happening myself – I think we’ll either bring back Vazquez or sign Lee). He needs to be ready for a full season, period. The 2010 bullpen will be fine without him. The 2011 rotation probably won’t.
there’s a reply button now. why wouldn’t you use it? when responses nest it keeps the comments section much better organized and more readable than it would otherwise be
S.o.S. says:
February 12th, 2010 at 6:07 pm
Can i have mine changed from S.o.S. says, shhh S.o.S. speaks.
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For two years, I thought it was your quiet way of asking for help.
M-
“Nesting is what expectant mothers instinctually do when they get CLOSER to their due date.”
A very pregnant comment !
=======
Hmmm. I wonder if that also applies to ALMOST pregnant mothers.
Is Phil Hughes being nested by his PBMs?
Pat M,
He reports officially on Sunday. I suspect he will check in sometime tomorrow.
S.o.S.-
How about S.o.S utters ? Would that work ?
The Yankees are not likely to have 5 starters pitch over 170 innings regardless of who pitches. because of the off days, that just doesn’t happen, so either pitcher will pitch roughly the same number of innings. HUGHES ISN’T GOING TO THE MINORS UNLESS IT’S ON A REHAB ASSIGNMENT. Yes, it was capitalized to get your attention.
That’s horrible! How sad.
New post!
Please post all complaints about this new post announcement in this nested thread.
This new post announcement stunk.
Actually, Nick, I love this idea. Topics that have to do with the actual topic post by Sam or Chad in the regular linear posting system we’re used to, but any tangential or off-topic posts begin a new thread.
Good thinking, sir.
What are you, a sheep?? Think for yourself, Nick in SF.
Whatever, weirdo.
m -
I agree, if you’re catching up after not being here for a while, the format really makes no difference.
Name calling? Real mature!
MTU,
That has a nice ring to it.
GB7,
Thats the story of my life. Always misunderstood.
This conversation is over.
You can’t be claustrophobic !
Classic Nick!! Which one is Nick the Dr.Jeckyl?
It’s not over until I say it’s over!
Okay, now it’s over.
I thought i was the only one that has those conversations?
can’t stand RAB
Why are you people still commenting here?? It’s over!
Um, because you’re not the boss of them and they can do whatever they want? Freak.
Oh don’t YOU start up with me again.
S.o.S. says:
February 12th, 2010 at 6:22 pm
MTU,
That has a nice ring to it.
GB7,
Thats the story of my life. Always misunderstood.
————————————————————
I’ve got to say, S.o.S…you’ve only had a few of those, “that boy just ain’t right” momemts. i’m trying to cut down on my moments.
I’m going now. Bye freak!
You’re being abusive and that’s a violation of the TOS.
Your face is a violation of the TOS.
What are you, 13 years old???
Heh, no, but I got that from my nephew who IS 13 years old.
He’s my nephew too, duh. That doesn’t mean we have to talk like him.
Sigh. OK, you win. Can we be friends again?
The truth is, I never STOPPED loving you.
Let’s never fight like this again.
stop it!! Your embarrassing yourself!!
wow, these boxes really are getting claustrophobic.
S.O.S.
You made a square with your final swat at Nick! Congratulations.
perfect for haiku though
Is that a challenge????
i’m just curious what happens when the box gets too small for even a word.
Check the top of the last thread. Or, we can do it again. I’ve got the cabin fever, bored to tears, and this is the most fun I’ve had in a while. Sad, huh???
Room for me?
This isnt a video game guys. You dont win if you it stops at the end of all those levels. Watch, the server is going to crash and then GAME IS REALLY OVER!!
we can crash the server?
I think it can take at least two more!
We didn’t last time.
Trying to talk smart(bluffing). Or it can start getting bigger again?
just seeing what happens when i post something here .
If you scroll up or down really fast, it’s like one of those old-fashioned books where you flip the pages and get a picture or a cartoon.
this blog now has pinstripes
nick in sf may have hypnotized himself doing that-both of him.
randy l – and that’s the conclusion we reached in the prior thread.
Randy Classic!! I knew the was a method to the madness.
Oh, wait, is it getting wider again?
I can’t guarantee that he will go to the minors, but i certainly hope he will
You are dumb.
No, not at all.
What is better, fewer people reading your response? or fewer people understanding your response because they haven’t followed your 1/8 of the conversation?