And so it begins
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Feb 18, 2010 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
First they gathered in the right-field corner. Then they started jogging toward center. And with that, the first official workout of spring training was underway. There are quite a few fans gathered in the lower levels of the stadium, and the crowd began cheering the moment the Yankees started jogging.
From these photos I can’t tell whether Joba or Phil is ahead.
it looks like hughes is about two feet ahead at this point.
Yikes, had some real issues with this post for a few minutes. Sorry if things looked a little screwy for a while. I think I have it worked out finally.
Great pictures!
thanks Chad for the pix, it looks beautiful
Such a nice looking field. Wish I can get down there. Go Yankees!
Ah – now that’s a sight that gladden’s a baseball fan’s heart. Thanks, Chad!
I’m so upset i’m not going to make it to ST this year
Who has bullpen sessions today, Chad? Andy, Javy and AJ?
Tom B – pro-yankee/pro-sabre/anti-uninformed opinions
February 18th, 2010 at 11:25 am
I’m so upset i’m not going to make it to ST this year
**********
if it makes you feel any better, in order for me to atttend a ST I will need to start a totally new career
Chad,
Thanks for the pictures. It’s real now.
So, I have one thing to say about pitchers wins. The word “worthless” gets thrown around quite bit, doesn’t it?
Pitchers wins are not worthless. No win is worthless. Wins are what you aim for.
However, in trying to discern the quality of a pitcher, wins do not give a complete picture. They don’t tell the whole story. So, as a statistic, “wins” would be incomplete. It’s merely a chapter in the book.
But if a pitcher manages to accumulate up around 20 wins, he’s definitely doing something right. Some of those wins will be directly attributable to the way he pitched that day; some wins will be due more to the way his team supported him. But he’s doing something right. If it was easy to merely accumulate wins, wouldn’t you think there’d be more 20 game winners each year?
murphydog -
The AARP starts coming after ya at a pretty early age, you know? I think they’ve got a heck of a nerve deciding when I’m a senior citizen, which, as you correctly pointed out, I am NOT!!!!
Mitre, Aceves and Gaudin first up in the bullpen.
“Mitre, Aceves and Gaudin first up in the bullpen.”
Our candidates for the 5th starter.
Just kidding, Betsy.:)
I don’t think a win is worthless, but its certainly not a perfect indicator. Let’s take the Roy Halladay on the Blue Jays example. An ace pitcher on a team with a shoddy bullpen.
Halladay finished 2009 with 17 wins. Had he been on a team that could hold the lead after he exited the game, he would have had more.
Chad,
Has Pettitte arrived yet?
I’m sure that trio will draw a crowd, lol. Craw, you’re kidding……but is Eiland? LOL The Yankees aren’t fooling anyone – this is a two horse race.
Is that Johnny Damon I see peering over the fence.
Chad, thanks!
Erica -
BTW – Don’t endanger your job. The Yankees don’t pay you for being their #1 fan.
First meaningless HRs and now worthless wins?
Erica – always OPPC
February 18th, 2010 at 11:41 am
I don’t think a win is worthless, but its certainly not a perfect indicator. Let’s take the Roy Halladay on the Blue Jays example. An ace pitcher on a team with a shoddy bullpen.
Halladay finished 2009 with 17 wins. Had he been on a team that could hold the lead after he exited the game, he would have had more.
————————————————————
It’s not that people think that a pitcher getting a win (as long as it’s not a loss) is the most important stat that’s at issue here, it’s the BS that a pitcher’s wins and RBI are bogus stats.
Doreen
February 18th, 2010 at 11:47 am
The Yankees don’t pay you for being their #1 fan.
**********************
That would be the coolest job ever
February 18th, 2010 at 11:45 am
Is that Johnny Damon I see peering over the fence.
******************************
Speaking of, and my apologies for bringing him up again..but it seems Michelle Damon would rather he sign with the WhiteSox considering its more of a cosmopolitan town (aka – it has better shopping) – so at this point she would rather have him sign a $4.5 million contract instead of a 6 or 7 with the Tigers because of the fricken shopping!?! She should have spoken with Leigh Teixeira and had Mrs Tex set her straight on which town had the better shopping!!!
Andy was there yesterday.
Great job Chad! Do you plan on having any Q&A’s with the players this spring training?
The game is a foot.
I think that along with watching to see if gardner progresses, Chad Gaudin might just be the most interesting player to watch this year. Did he finally make a connection between his talent and production? People forget that he’s been on bad teams, but, also, that he’s still quite young. Working with guys like Sabathia, Pettitte, Rivera and Burnett has teach a pitcher things he didn’t know…as long as he’s willing to ask for help, draw on their knowledge and listen. That, so far has been some of Chamberlain’s problems….listening and thinking that he has all the answers.
The shopping is better on Michigan Ave. in Chicago than in Boston or Detroit.
Problem is, if you take a 10 million dollar paycut, you have to do less shopping.
The classic Catch-22!
Uncle Ellsworth (Expert textpert choking smokers, don’t you think the joker laughs at you)
February 18th, 2010 at 11:57 am
The game is a foot.
******************
Hi Uncle E! How many days ’til your trip?
GB7 – I don’t think that anyone should say that wins or RBI’s are “bogus stats”, but you also should not use them to compare players. Wins, RBI’s/runs, saves, those are result stats. The result of a lot of other stats adding up to something the player did not have complete control over. You should only use stats that the player controls to compare him to another player.
4.5 million is not Bobby Abreu money Johnny.
To me, a lot of this season rests on Javy Vasquez’s shoulders.
If he pitches like he did last year, that’s 800+ innings out of your Top 4 starters with a rested and dominant bullpen. Along with good health for the core guys, this team would be unstoppable.
If he doesn’t pitch well, you have uncertainty in the last 2 slots in the rotation, an overworked Top 3, and a tired bullpen. All, not appetizing situations.
If the 2009 Javy Vasquez is in the rotation this year, this team is head and shoulders better than anyone else.
SJ44 – Vasquez has shown remarkable improvement on his control over the last few years, he was making people look silly last season. I’d say he’s way more of a sure thing for us this season than Pettite, who should be a question mark for the remainder of his career because you never know when his tired shoulder will crop up again.
If Javy duplicates his 2009 numbers with the Yankees and everyone else stays healthy then man they aren’t losing very many games at all.
Obviously, we have to see what Damon ultimately gets, but there was a lot of “I told you so” on the blog when Damon was on the verge of signing with the Tigers for what the Yankees offered. (2/$14M)
What happened?
SJ, How’s Tony’s camp going ???? I’m certain he’s adjusted to the wow factor somewhat
“It’s not that people think that a pitcher getting a win (as long as it’s not a loss) is the most important stat that’s at issue here, it’s the BS that a pitcher’s wins and RBI are bogus stats.”
Wins/Losses aren’t bogus, but frequently are not a fair indication of how a guy pitched. Doesn’t make ‘em bogus stats, but in measuring a pitcher, they fall behind a number of other stats.
The RBI is meaningless war cry is sabermetricians who’ve ran amok. The explanation is for their position is ridiculous and borderline contradictory. In one sentence he refers to the RBI as meaningless and in the next he says that in an rbi situation “the guy you want at the plate is just your best hitter, period – the guy who’s going to produce the most offensively or give you the least chance of making an out, because obviously in a clutch situation, in an RBI situation, the last thing you want is an out.
If I’m the interviewer, I say “So, to summarize, RBI is a meaningless stat, yet it’s important to have your best hitters up as often as possible in situations where an RBI is available. That about cover it?”
Of course you have to use them to compare players. Some guys win more games, because they are better pitchers, than other guys.
Conversely, some guys do a great job of driving in runs than other guys. That’s a tangible fact that’s played out in every baseball season. You have to take that into consideration.
Its all part of the overall evaluation. You don’t discard them. You use the information in relation to all of the other information available to you.
If you don’t, you are making improper and incomplete evaluations of players.
Chad,
Good to see photos again. Recently I looked back at previous years to see what was missing here (aside from attitude). One of the big differences from the past was the lack of visuals.
I recommend that anybody interested in how the blog is doing take a trip through the archives.
http://bostonherald.com/sports.....position=2
“. Good intentions led to a back injury for Daisuke Matsuzaka.”
m -
My guess is that the 2/14 offer from Detroit never existed.
Pat M,
Today is the first full workout for them. I think the wow factor left him yesterday and he knows it time to get down to work.
Will hear from him later on how it went today.
M,
What happened? There was no 2 year offer. It was Boras spin put out by his PR team of Heyman and Rosenthal.
If there was a 2 year offer, non-cosmopolitan city or not, he would be in Lakeland today.
Rishi,
Did he try to save a kid from getting hit by a car?
rodg12,
I’ll have to go back and look, but there was a lot of stuff being said based on a deal that wasn’t finalized.
Michigan Avenue is like NY’s 5th Avenue……I don’t like to shop, but if in Chicago, you have to stroll the Avenue (if for no other reason than to see the water towers, the sole surviving – or one of – landmarks from the Chicago fire that was not started by Mrs. O’Leary’s cow).
I’m not sure that Javy has to pitch like last year – if he does, the rotation is unbelievable. I think he just has to be good. It’s always a good thing when a player wants to play in NY and it seems like Javy never wanted to leave. He doesn’t have to worry about not being on his manager’s good side – that will be a burden off his shoulders – and it’s a great clubhouse.
Of the new guys, I admit I’m eager to see Granderson most. I think he’ll improve against lefties and I just think he’s being underrated. Now we hear that Leyland thinks he was distracted by doing too much community work? Please……..sometimes a guy just has an off year; players are human after all.
I’m also psyched to see Babe Ruth lookalike NJ in camp.
m
February 18th, 2010 at 12:17 pm
Rishi,
Did he try to save a kid from getting hit by a car?
===========
More like a workout related injury
What a B E A U T I F U L sight, and with no “Johnny pay check” in the picture. Go Yankees!
Win totals are useful, but are far from the best statistical descriptors of a player’s performance. In general, they are much more useful for starters (for obvious reasons) and over the course of a career when the peaks and valleys of poor/good run support, playing on good/bad teams, and good/poor luck have the opportunity to even out and a pitcher’s W-L record is more a reflection of how he pitched.
Conversely, within the confines of a single season, there is a much greater likelihood that there will be a dissonance between a pitcher’s W-L record and his actual performance (Obvious examples Ryan ’87, R. Johnson ’04). Simply put, there are many more variables that go into gaining a victory for a pitcher than simply his individual output.
SJ,
It was rather strange. Like the Tigers were bidding against themselves. And then a lot of “Damon would rather take the 1 year offer than the 2 year deal”.
Lookalike? You mean baseball or looks? Joba could be Ruth’s great-great-grandson.
And that picture of Hughes? If you squint? Kind of looked like the guy who played Van Wilder that was in that raunchy movie about the waiters.
Tom B – pro-yankee/pro-sabre/anti-uninformed opinions
February 18th, 2010 at 12:06 pm
GB7 – I don’t think that anyone should say that wins or RBI’s are “bogus stats”, but you also should not use them to compare players. Wins, RBI’s/runs, saves, those are result stats. The result of a lot of other stats adding up to something the player did not have complete control over. You should only use stats that the player controls to compare him to another player.
————————————————————
I never said that wins or RBI are the most important. What I said was that I’ll take run production over highly flawed formulas any time. I don’t care if a player has 4 RBI grounders as long as the runs score.
Standing around and trying to work a walk instead of hitting the ball doesn’t do any good if the guy stays at first base. Gardner did that too often last year. Trying to work a walk when you start in a 0-2 hole is stupid, as is being sent in to pinch run and then standing on first base for the next three outs.
I also value a pitcher that can close out a win when it’s in sight. A pitcher that throws 7 or 8 innings of shutout ball and then can’t close the deal isn’t of much help when the team loses. Masters of that were guys like Jim Kaat, Jack Morris, David Wells, and David Cone.
Nobody, not even the most fervent “sabermetrician”, believes that RBI’s are meaningless.
Of course RBI’s are meaningful. They are good things. You want as many of them as possible. No one would dispute that. If you knocked in a lot of RBIs, you did good.
However, RBIs are affected by many variables, only some of which relate to how good the hitter actually is. Many other variables relate to how good the players are in the lineup around the hitter. If your task is identifying how good the hitter actually is and, more importantly, how good the hitter will be in the future, RBIs can easily be misleading. You have to look at other things. No one here would disagree with that, I’d guess. That’s all a “stat guy” would say as well.
We all understand that a 90 RBI guy can be better than a 110 RBI guy, depending. Now. Thirty years ago, before advanced stats came on the scene, this surprisingly obvious notion was much less understood.
m
February 18th, 2010 at 12:22 pm
And that picture of Hughes? If you squint? Kind of looked like the guy who played Van Wilder that was in that raunchy movie about the waiters.
********************
Ryan Reynolds?
SJ, What I still recall was that once you get comfortable with your surroundings, then comes the games, and suddenly you realize that you’re on the same field as guys that you grew up watching and admiring…..Doesn’t it all start for the Pirates vs. The Bronx Bombers in a week or so ????
Chad,
Kruk just reported on ESPN radio that some of the players and staff in Yankee camp were confused and concerned that they didn’t bring Damon back…any truth to that?
******************
Hi Uncle E! How many days ’til your trip?
Hi Erin,
I leave in exactly 2 weeks. Going to games friday, sat and monday. How are you doing?
Anyone else going to be at those games?
If pitcher wins were worthless, they wouldn’t award them. They wouldn’t have rules that you have to go at least 5 full innings and leave with a lead.
“It’s not that people think that a pitcher getting a win (as long as it’s not a loss) is the most important stat that’s at issue here, it’s the BS that a pitcher’s wins and RBI are bogus stats.”
****************************
That’s a very reasonable POV. However, during these late night fights over traditional vs. advanced statistics, it seems statements such as this are exceedingly rare and there is little effort to understand exactly what the opposing viewpoints are. Instead, the battle lines are drawn and people generally overstate their point, misstate the other person’s POV, make personal attacks, etc. I enjoy learning from individuals with personal baseball experience as well as from those with knowledge of enlightening statistics that may challenge popular conceptions. Unfortunately, there is little opportunity for anyone to learn anything when each point/stat is treated as a battle in this mythical war. As a result, acknowledging that a traditional/advanced stat has some degree of merit seems to be viewed as accepting defeat.
As with most everything, the best answer is somewhere in the middle. I think each side of this debate actually sees some value in the arguments of the other side, but the personal, divisive nature of the “debate” prevents the occurrence of any meaningful dialogue. This blog features a great, diverse community…unfortunately that fact is often overshadowed when these discussions are treated as a contest for proving one’s value or intellect.
Anyone else Mesmerized by Curling?
What picture of Phil?
Uncle Ellsworth (Expert textpert choking smokers, don’t you think the joker laughs at you)
February 18th, 2010 at 12:26 pm
******************
Hi Uncle E! How many days ’til your trip?
Hi Erin,
I leave in exactly 2 weeks. Going to games friday, sat and monday. How are you doing?
********************
I’m good Uncle E, but extremely jealous that you’re going down to ST!
Well stated in regards to RBI’s Wave.
Joe Carter is a great example of why RBI’s are an over-emphasized indicator of worth. While Carter was a good player, his value was overestimated as he perenially ranked near the top of the league in RBI opportunities during his years in Cleveland, San Diego, and Toronto.
Uncle Ellsworth (Expert textpert choking smokers, don’t you think the joker laughs at you)
February 18th, 2010 at 12:28 pm
Anyone else Mesmerized by Curling?
***********************
Funniest Curling scene ever is when the Beatles do it in Help
Betsy -Romine wasn’t built in a day
February 18th, 2010 at 12:18 pm
Are you saying Javy wasn’t on Torre’s good side??? I didn’t see that when he was here before. In fact I thought Torre & Cashman wanted Javy to stay. I’m sure they both wanted Randy Johnson too, but not at Javy’s expense.
Blake, I don’t buy that. First, Kruk is an idiot. Secondly, unless the Yankees players and staff are idiots, they know that Cash did the best he could. At some point, Damon has to take responsibility for his not being back here. Kruk is very likely just trying to make the Yankees look bad – I detest him.
What’s there to be confused about? As Cashman said, Damon has to reconcile why he’s not with the Yankees.
Even if a gazillion dollars wasn’t tied up by 6 players or so, why pay Damon overmarket? Mo, Posada, Jeter. Bring back at all costs. Damon was not in that category.
Players (if in fact they said anything) need to worry about doing their job. Cashman’s job is to make sure that they field the best team they can. With players they can count on to be on the field when they need them. Ironically, Nick Johnson is replacing Damon. But as Cashmans has said, that’s because Damon took a pass.
Ray, Cash obviously loved Javy which he made it clear at the time of the trade, but Javy said at the time that he was never made to feel comfortable by his manager……..This shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone about Torre.
Generally, the point of advanced statistics is to reduce the number of extraneous variables that adversely affects the accuracy of the more “traditional” numbers in order to paint a more accurate picture of what is going on.
It’s basically what people of science do but applied to baseball.
People in the MSM, the NY papers & ESPN especially, say things just to bring attention to themselves and their paper/show. Guys like Kruk know that anything negative said about the Yankess will be good for business. Just don’t pay attention.
Betsy, yes Kruk is an idiot. I just wanted to see what Chad thought about that comment since he is down there.
Just like Cashman said, if Damon signs for anything less than Abreu money (2/19M), it’s Damon’s fault he’s not with the Yankees. He and Boras were wrong about his market value.
Tigers have offered the exact amount as the Yankees, in a city his wife hates. Wht Sox have 1 yr 4.5M on the table. Damon is ALL about money something proven by him his whole career,) and will most likely go to Detroit, chasing the “benjamins” as usual !!.
The one you posted.
http://uspresswire.com/image/t.....446193.jpg
And yes, it is Ryan Reynolds. Like if he ate a thousand twinkies and made a mad face.
Betsy,
Did you see the one of Phil I posted yesterday? With his shirt flying up? His legs look like twigs. I think he was wearing CC’s pants.
Erin
February 18th, 2010 at 12:30 pm
Uncle Ellsworth (Expert textpert choking smokers, don’t you think the joker laughs at you)
February 18th, 2010 at 12:28 pm
Anyone else Mesmerized by Curling?
***********************
Funniest Curling scene ever is when the Beatles do it in Help
————————————————————
Curling belongs in beauty parlors and on deep fried onions.
SJ44 – i think the focus of the point was that you don’t look at 2 pitchers, one with 17 wins the other with 20 and automatically assume that the 20 game winner is a better pitcher. the same holds true with RBI, though not to the same extent.
take 2 players, one with 140 RBI’s, the other with 110 RBI’s. The player with 140 RBI’s bats 4th for the Yankees, the player with 110 bats 4th forth for the Royals. How do that stat let me compare those players? They could have identical AVG/OBP/SLG numbers, contact rates, whatever… but the one on the Yankee’s got 70 more opportunities to acquire RBI’s during those same at bats. The players physical production was the same, but the results are different. RBI totals are dependent on someone being on base in front of you, which is not a definable skill for anyone i’ve ever seen playing baseball.
it’s all about using the right stats in the proper context.
Pat M,
March 3, first ST game, Pittsburgh v. Yankees in Tampa.
Coming back from Vegas early to make that game.
Nobody is saying wins or RBI or the sole way of evaluating a player. Some of us are just saying when its said its a “worthless” stat, which some have said here, its a fundamentally incorrect statement for reasons that have been stated ad nauseum on here.
M,
You don’t have to have a Masters Degree in baseball business to realize last weeks “bidding frenzy” on Johnny Damon was a lie perpetuated by Boras’ shills in the media.
For anyone to buy into the fact he was deciding on whether to choose 1 or 2 year offers, when he has insisted on 2 year offers throughout the process defies logic.
There was no bidding war, nor has there been, for his services this winter.
Unfortunately for Johnny, he put it all in Scott’s hands and, at least in this instance, he didn’t deliver for him.
SJ44-
I replied to you back in the previous thread in an attempt to hold down the UZR talk in this thread.
I seriously doubt the tigers ever have actually offered Damon 14 million or he would have taken it and ran to the bank with it.
Betsy -Romine wasn’t built in a day
February 18th, 2010 at 12:18 pm
I agree! Baseball is such an interrelated game that everything almost affects everything else.
The grass height or turf, a good fielding 1B versus a bad one, ball park dimensions, wind, day versus night games, indoor versus outdoor, good run support versus very little, injuries and playing thru them or not, overuse, taking one for the bullpen, the pitcher a team faces (best vs 1 team & worst vs another), who bats behind you, pitching around a hitter, being in a pennant race or not, and on and on.
There are so many complicated intricacies that they are hard to quantify and correlate and even not correlate.
These and others are why I have trouble using Sabermetrics or something similar as an end all. I truly believe it has its place in the equation, just not a blanket thing!!
GreenBeret7
February 18th, 2010 at 12:35 pm
Erin
February 18th, 2010 at 12:30 pm
Uncle Ellsworth (Expert textpert choking smokers, don’t you think the joker laughs at you)
February 18th, 2010 at 12:28 pm
Anyone else Mesmerized by Curling?
***********************
Funniest Curling scene ever is when the Beatles do it in Help
————————————————————
Curling belongs in beauty parlors and on deep fried onions.
***********************
LOL
Now I’m craving deep friend onions!!
http://twitpic.com/13ype6
CC back at work
Oh, M – I have no idea who the guys are you think he looks like, but that’s a great pic of Phil. There were several good pics of Phil yesterday –I didn’t notice his legs. If his legs did look like twigs, I hope it’s because he wasn’t wearing the right size pants and not because he lost weight or is not in shape.
Blake, understood; I just wanted to reply so I could say Kruk is an idiot, lol
drive-by
February 18th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
See my post at 12:30. It was for you too.
drive-by
February 18th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
LOL! I meant 12:40
Maybe Damon needs to start looking at the shopping on The Ginza in Tokyo.
Betsy,
Too much AMC and not enough Comedy Channel.
They don’t really look alike, but let’s just say that Reynold’s is good looking.
http://devotedfansnews.com/wp-.....reydfn.jpg
***********************
Funniest Curling scene ever is when the Beatles do it in Help
possibly the only curling scene
Erin
February 18th, 2010 at 12:41 pm
***********************
Funniest Curling scene ever is when the Beatles do it in Help
————————————————————
Curling belongs in beauty parlors and on deep fried onions.
***********************
LOL
Now I’m craving deep friend onions!!
————————————————————
Just don’t order them when you go to your hair dresser. A mixup would be catostrphic.
I love curling!! Thank goodness ST started or my entire week would just be Olympics….
Baseball being back makes my days go much faster…
M, I actually don’t think the guy is that good looking. I suppose he’s cute in a bland way, but I would never look twice at him.
Here’s the picture of Phil throwing in the bullpen yesterday.
http://www.daylife.com/photo/0.....?q=Yankees
catostrphic.
Not only that, but, catastrophic, too.
Uncle Ellsworth (Expert textpert choking smokers, don’t you think the joker laughs at you)
February 18th, 2010 at 12:46 pm
***********************
Funniest Curling scene ever is when the Beatles do it in Help
possibly the only curling scene
***************************
Very true.
Oh, lord. Who will be the first to make a joke out of using a hot iron to straighten out curly fries.
Betsy,
lol. But you’d look twice at Phil?
GreenBeret7
February 18th, 2010 at 12:48 pm
Just don’t order them when you go to your hair dresser. A mixup would be catostrphic.
*************************
LOL Yes, that would not be good at all.
How’s your cold-are you feeling any better?
“Just don’t order them when you go to your hair dresser. A mixup would be catostrphic.”
reminds me of a High School friend who “answered the iron” after smoking the wacky. He came to school with an iron shaped scar on his cheek. true story
SJ44
February 18th, 2010 at 9:59 am
Saying wins and RBI are “worthless” is an overstatement and an incorrect one regardless of who says it.
Without bogging down the blog with another civil war on determining player efficiency, most openminded people on the numbers debate laugh at such an oversimplification.
Are wins and RBI the sole or even primary reason to evaluate players? Of course not.
But, to say they are “worthless” doesn’t boost a sabermetric argument.
Wins and RBI matter. A lot. One can argue the degree they matter. One can’t logically argue they are “worthless”.
————————-
SJ,
Like I said to Pat it you want to just call it laughable or me crazy good for you if that makes you feel better, but that adds nothing to the discussion. What most openminded people you talk about without citing anyone or anything does not tell me anything about wins. What some guy said a year ago about CC does not tell me anything. It is very easy to play that game.
I have asked anyone one here to tell me WHY pitcher wins have value. I have not seen one piece of evidence as to what value if any they add. I want to know that when trying to decided who was better a pitcher in 2009, CC or Lester, what their win totals add to the discussion. IMO they add nothing and why I said they are worthless. I want to know why Brian Cashman should pay one FA pitcher more than another based on win totals. IMO he should not.
Arbitration hearings are typically decided by people who do not have much knowledge of baseball beyond HRs, RBIs, Wins, etc. So you are forced to use wins as a measurement because those people value them. HOF voting does not tell me anything about the value of a win. What about bunch of sports writers use as criteria for the HOF is not real evidence. We have seen how stupid some of these HOF voters are in recent years with Jon Heyman coming to mind.
And to be clear I never said RBIs are “worthless.” I said they are bogus because they are almost completely context driven. I said pitcher wins are worthless so you cannot couple the 2 arguments to make your point. The discussion last night was about pitcher wins.
“weil” and (“BAS” or “Banc of America” or “BofA” or “BOA”) and (Reviewed For nc “Weil-UW Master Chronology”)
Wave,
When trying to determine the value of a player, RBI’s are useless.
What I am saying basically is that I am welcoming a discussion about pitcher wins but all I have seen so far is your crazy, that is laughable, etc.
Is that really how the discussion should be conducted?
Uncle Ellsworth (Expert textpert choking smokers, don’t you think the joker laughs at you)
February 18th, 2010 at 12:55 pm
reminds me of a High School friend who “answered the iron” after smoking the wacky. He came to school with an iron shaped scar on his cheek. true story
********************
LMAO That sounds painful!
lets go yankees – that’s probably because there is no argument “for” pitcher wins
when people don’t have an argument they will say anything to divert the conversation away from their position.
Wins have value when evaluating a pitcher. For that day, that pitcher pitched better than his opponent for at least 5 innings.
Losses are meaningful when evaluating a pitcher, right? Then wins should be meaningful, too.
They may not mean much, but it’s a stretch to say they have no worth at all.
Erin
February 18th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
GreenBeret7
February 18th, 2010 at 12:48 pm
Just don’t order them when you go to your hair dresser. A mixup would be catostrphic.
*************************
LOL Yes, that would not be good at all.
How’s your cold-are you feeling any better?
————————————————————
Not too bad, Erin. Thanks for asking.
If it means anything…I have a need to get nasty with the trolls and idiots today. A sure sign that I’m getting back to normal.
Now!!!! Where’s Randy? I’ll use him to warm up on.
Kruk is a well known Yankee hater. He is just throw things at a wall and see what sticks. Players know teammates come and go and there is little chance of having a team intact.
As far as this ‘offer’ from the Tigers. I don’t buy it. I don’t think there is an offer from them.
m – the problem is how to you compare a 6ER win with a 1ER loss?
Losses are not meaningful either.
Wins and losses tell us what a team has done on a given day, not what the pitcher has done. There are many better tools to use when evaluating a pitcher’s value.
Tom B,
You comparing two games? In a vacuum?
Or do you want to do a snapshot of a season? A career?
Do you need to add “nitpicker” to your tagline?
Patrick,
So why the hell have any win-loss records at all? Why have individual stats for runs and rbi and sacs and this and that? After all, it’s a team sport, right?
I mean a sack in football is just one moment in a 60 minute game. That may or may not have been the decisive play in the game. But they still keep the stat.
Let’s not let the pendulum swing too far either way. Because it can get ridiculous.
m
February 18th, 2010 at 1:01 pm
Wins have value when evaluating a pitcher. For that day, that pitcher pitched better than his opponent for at least 5 innings.
———————–
This is not true. There are many ways in which you can get a wins without out-pitching your opponent for 5 innings.
CC Sabathia could be facing the Royals and he is not pitching well but the Royals just suck so bad that they can not score. Or Granderson could make 6 diving plays. Or the Twins can make a bunch of baserunning errors to bail you out. Zack Greinke can be pitching brilliantly against the Yankees but A-Rod is so good he hits a HR and the Yankees go up 1-0. Greinke can be pitching great but his defense fails him.
There are several other ways but to be honest I will not have time until later to list them if you want more.
Chad, that looks like the area I view the spring workouts from. I thought that you would be on the field taking photos!
I’m sure the Yankees are confused that Damon hasn’t been signed by ANYONE yet. Most of his teammates probably miss having him around in the clubhouse.
Aside from that, I highly doubt there’s any panic about not having Johnny on the team this year.
no, need lgy.
I see your point and it’s totally valid.
But you finetooth combing it like this just sucks the joy out of any conversation about baseball.
no, need lgy.
I see your point and it’s totally valid.
But you finetooth combing it like this just sucks the joy out of any conversation about baseball.
Not you in particular. oops.
“Pitchers wins are not worthless. No win is worthless. Wins are what you aim for.”
——————
No. You aim for team wins. Like Jerkface basically said last night, you stop assigning pitcher wins and nothing changes.
M, Phil’s looks are irrelevant to me. I like him because he was the crown jewel of the organization at one point, he’s a good kid, he works hard and I like his personality. When he was keeping up to date on his blog, he was a lot of fun and definitely appreciated the fans.
“Three Stories/Events that Summed up the Offseason
1. Where’s Johnny: Who knew it would be easier for Johnny Damon to steal two World Series bases on the same pitch than it would be for him to find a job in the next three months? But here’s our question: Did Scott Boras really want Damon to find a job before he got Matt Holliday signed? The longer the Yankees had an apparent opening in left field, the easier it was for the Cardinals to worry that the Yankees could still swoop in and sign Holliday at the last minute. Right? Unfortunately for Damon, by the time Holliday signed in St. Louis and Boras was announcing, “I’m in the process of turning my attention to Johnny’s situation,” it was mid-January, the Yankees had hung a “No Vacancy” sign and it was time for him to start begging the Tigers to rescue Damon from the unemployment line. Crazy saga.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=4918467
Someone should introduce Damon’s wife to cyber shopping.
“So why the hell have any win-loss records at all? ”
A team win-loss record is obviously the ultimate statistic – it’s really all that matters in the end. A pitcher’s win-loss record exists because it’s always existed, there’s no other logic behind it. It’s basically a relic from a time when player value was poorly understood.
Stats exist for two reasons. 1) To determine a player’s past value and 2) To try to project a player’s future value. That’s why the best stats are ones that isolate what a specific player does. Wins, runs, RBI’s, saves, etc, don’t do this. They are all dependent on other players. Things like HR, OBP, SLG, IsoP, wOBA, etc key in on exactly what a player does by himself and are therefore superior for determining player value.
m – at this point i think you are just trying to be annoying. and you are being very successful at that.
like i said before… hell i’ll make a new comparison JUST FOR YOU and you tell me how your method works out.
pitcher A has a 13-10 record and a 2.30ERA because he plays for a team that doesn’t score runs.
pitcher B has a 19-5 record with a 3.60ERA because his team scores 10 runs a game.
comparing those 2 guys based on wins is totally fair, right? screw the guy with no offense to back him up, amirite?
Hoch: Swisher, Granderson and Gardner just came in to drop off stuff. Swisher leapt onto Dave Eiland.
2 minutes ago from txt
You gotta love Swisher
Rich in NJ
February 18th, 2010 at 1:15 pm
Someone should introduce Damon’s wife to cyber shopping.
******************
Not to sound like a jealous pretend girlfiend, but Michelle Damon is really starting to bug me
It’s Mo!!
http://www.daylife.com/photo/0.....?q=Yankees
Tom B – pro-yankee/pro-sabre/anti-uninformed opinions
February 18th, 2010 at 1:16 pm
pitcher A has a 13-10 record and a 2.30ERA because he plays for a team that doesn’t score runs.
**********
I like these games!!!!
Did pitcher A’s team bullpen also blow the lead a few times???
Michell should have opened her mouth about where she liked to shop before her dope of a husband turned down the Yankees offer.
erica – whatever you want
the point i’m trying to(poorly, i’m sure) bring forward is that when you compare 2 players, you should compare them by something that they have almost total control over.
Wins are a cumulative team effort, not an individual stat.
“comparing those 2 guys based on wins is totally fair, right? screw the guy with no offense to back him up, amirite?”
Sadly enough, according to baseball writers it was indeed fair in 2004 when Roger Clemens beat Randy Johnson for the Cy Young award.
Clemens: 18-4, 2.98 ERA, 214.1 IP, 146 ERA+ (won CY)
Johnson: 16-14, 2.60 ERA, 245.2 IP, 177 ERA+ (runner-up CY)
It was also fair when Carpenter beat Clemens the next year.
Carpenter: 21-5, 2.83 ERA, 241.2 IP, 149 ERA+ (won CY)
Clemens: 13-8, 1.87 ERA, 211.1 IP, 226 ERA+ (3rd place CY)
Trying to annoy you? Not at all.
I’ll just bow out of the discussion at this point. Sorry if I was a bother.
m – it just seems like you are arguing for the sake of it, not having a discussion in order to try to learn anything. you are set in your ways, and that’s fine… but don’t debate with anyone over things that you do not care to understand.
Actually if I’m being fair, the 2005 CYA was probably fair. Even though Clemens’ ERA was almost a full run better, Carp threw 30 more innings in only 1 less game plus he had more SO, less BB, more complete games and more shutouts.
The 2004 Cy Young award is still a great example though. Clemens had more wins, less losses but Johnson actually had a far superior season. 290 K’s for johnson that year.. jeez
The greatest idea ever?
Or a sign that the end is nigh?
http://www.pajamajeans.com/Default.aspx?bhcp=1
Yay, spring training pictures!
“Wave,
When trying to determine the value of a player, RBI’s are useless.”
If by “value” you mean intrinsic ability or future worth, I believe I said that, but in a kinder, gentler way.
Tom B,
Since we’re getting personal, can I ask you 2 questions? How old are you? How long have you been on this blog?
m – 30, and since it started. not that either is relevant to our conversation.
Hoch: Yankees had 1,528 fans at GMS Field today, says dir. of media relations Jason Zillo.
2 minutes ago from TweetDeck
Girardi says getting 100 to 120 games as a catcher from Posada would be “great”
5 minutes ago from TweetDeck
Rishi – I’ve been thinking this was the case with the way Boras handled Johnny for some time now.
I guess you are a kinder, gentler person than Keith Law or myself. Not just future worth but past value. If you tell me some guy got 100 RBI it tells me virtually nothing about that player’s ability beyond the fact that he probably hit 3-5 in the batting order and he probably is an above average hitter.
My point is that when looking at the toolbox of stats we have, RBI’s, wins, losses, saves, etc are useless when trying to figure out how good a player is.
Doreen want to run away to ST together?
m – here’s a good one, telling me that a 16 win pitcher is worse than a 19 win pitcher based on wins alone would be akin to telling me that a 40 year old is smarter than a 30 year old because he is older.
from Rotoworld…
Quote:
We remain speculative of this, mainly because he is sourcing the Daily Herald for part of his opinion, but Schmehl believes Damon will be accepting the two-year, $14 million deal the Tigers offered him more than a week ago. If it’s a real offer, we have a hard time believing Damon would actually decline it, as speculated over the weekend. Position players are scheduled to report to Tigers’ camp on Monday and their first full workout is scheduled for Tuesday.
*********
So in other words, he’s taking the same offer he rejected out of hand from the Yankees. That’s a good job by Boras? By Damon? I hope he’s happy in Detroit.
Erica
She definitely seems to have forgotten where she came from.
Hoch: Here’s a shocker! CC Sabathia is lined up to start on Opening Day!
half a minute ago from TweetDeck
Comet
It sounds like a lot of people have cabin fever
pick me up along the way
The greatest idea ever?
Or a sign that the end is nigh?
http://www.pajamajeans.com/Default.aspx?bhcp=1
Better Than The Snuggie!
Make no mistake Snookie is the sigh of DOOM
Nothing like 4 obnoxious jerks demanding that people need to learn from them about the proper way to enjoy baseball or not discuss anything because you are beneath them.
lets go,
Last night we were going back and forth a bit and I didn’t get to respond to your last comment.
You were saying how by ONLY watching Teixeira play (eye test) you would not know “exactly” how well he played. And that’s obvious unless you were the Rainman or something and could keep track of thousands of numbers over a 6 month period.
And I do spend a good amount of time checking out baseballrefernece.com and I’m sure I’ve been to Tex’s page at least 30 times.
But there is a huge element to Tex’s game that I would never know about unless I actually saw him play. And I’m not just talking about the UZR issue.
I would never know how he makes all those picks in the dirt saving countless errors and runs.
I would never see how his range allows Cano to get to balls hit up the middle.
I would never see how he saves errors and possible injury to pitchers by taking the initiative to record the force himself on the grounders he fields.
I would never know that he was already rounding third base when that ball popped out of Castillo’s glove.
The thing is is that stats (in general, not just the advanced metrics)) do not allow their audience to see intricacies of the game.
Obviously there is a legitimate use to them. But when some rely on the too much, there is a tendency to overlook the big picture.
Simply put it’s like missing the forest by looking at the trees.
Doreen you have the cash, right? I’m broke so you’ll have to finance the trip. If you can’t go maybe Upstate Kate would be interested?
True, UE.
Perhaps this is all leading up to Dec 21, 2012.
When Snookie will appear on the View wearing Pajama Jeans!
Hey UPK how did you know I was thinking about you too? Amazing!
C
Tell Damaon’s wife to get a place on the lake and Stay There. Detroit is the Star of “life after people” but the burbs are nice.
Sabathia, Burnett and Vazquez
http://www.daylife.com/photo/0.....?q=Yankees
GB7 – i’ve never seen so many adamantly argue about something they admit to not understanding, and then try to rub it in your face when you try to explain it to them.
maybe you should be more open minded about learning new things rather than beating us over the head with your “old” knowledge.
Patrick-
I don’t think we are arguing about anything. I say if you are talking intrinsic value RBIs don’t help, and you tell me I’m wrong because they don’t help to determine past value either.
Your use of “past value” is not meaningfully different from “intrinsic value”. You are telling me ARod’s RBI’s in 2007 don’t tell you how good he was in 2007. Well guess what I agree.
But if you are trying to tell me 156 RBIs aren’t meaningful, you’re nuts. Of course they are meaningful, the Yanks won a lot of games with them.
They just aren’t meaningful in ways that tell you much about how good ARod really was in 2007.
Now quit drinking so much coffee.
Look’s to me that we have people here who have re-invented the game of baseball in regards to player evaluations….Makes one wonder how the game survived all these decades……Never in my wildest dreams did I think it would come to this when I played in the fanasty baseball leagues back in the early 80′s that it would come to this……Watching players, knowledge of the game & a Street & Smith would always place me in the money at seasons end…..You guys can keep your spreed sheets, let’s put up $ 500.00 each and let’s pick teams for wins. over unders, players over unders…..You pick it, no on base % though……I’m certain Nick in SF would enjoy padding his wallet as well as I do…..
I’m beginning to wonder if people even enjoy watching baseball anymore or if the ability to see a game is obstructed by the pile of books and calculator in front of them.
Aren’t all the initials, abbreviations and +’s really for the people who are actually paid to evaluate the talent on the field rather than those who are there to cheer for it?
It’s blog days like this that I wish CB was around.
Tom B – pro-yankee/pro-sabre/anti-uninformed opinions
February 18th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
GB7 – i’ve never seen so many adamantly argue about something they admit to not understanding, and then try to rub it in your face when you try to explain it to them.
maybe you should be more open minded about learning new things rather than beating us over the head with your “old” knowledge.
————————————————————
Seems to me that it’s the 4 obnoxious jerks trying to do the beating. I understand the numbers as do others. I just don’t accept them when there are so many flaws in them that many become totally useless.
Comet
February 18th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
Doreen you have the cash, right? I’m broke so you’ll have to finance the trip. If you can’t go maybe Upstate Kate would be interested?
**********
Am I not your type?? LOL
GB, what were you doing posting in the middle of the night last night? I hope you are on the west coast, you need your rest.
But you calling me passive-aggressive (arguing for the sake of arguing) and close-minded (set in your ways) is relevant?
The reason why I asked you those two questions is 1)people usually accuse their grandmother’s they’re set in their ways 2) as long as I’ve been on this board, I’ve tried to be a respectful poster, and I don’t think I’ve ever argued for the sake of arguing.
BTW, I’m only 11 years older than you. I don’t think I’m stuck in my ways, and am always open to being enlightened.
Pat M-
Speaking of putting your money where your mouth is, I remember you opposing me on a certain CMW wager. Is my memory right?
pat
February 18th, 2010 at 1:46 pm
I’m beginning to wonder if people even enjoy watching baseball anymore or if the ability to see a game is obstructed by the pile of books and calculator in front of them.
Aren’t all the initials, abbreviations and +’s really for the people who are actually paid to evaluate the talent on the field rather than those who are there to cheer for it?
————————————————————
They were designed by con artists to sell more books and promote fantasy baseball.
Pat M-
Are you proposing a game of “Guess the 2010 Final Standings”?
Upstate Kate:
I’ve got Cabin fever. So bored I’m clicking on the ads to help support the blog. Do you have enough cash for the two of us or three of us if Doreen can make it as well?
C
All posters who are over 30 report to carrousel.
Renew! Renew!
Bronx Jeers-
great post, sums up my feelings exactly.
Comet-
I must be psychic, or is it psycho, I get them confused. Maybe Uncle E will put us up.
So whos going to be voted off the island, Phil or Joba? What has the bigger possy going into it?
GB7 – You are talking about the theoretical formulas(ERA+, OPS+, wRC+, stuff like that). I am not. They have basically nothing to do with this conversation, as they are all theoretical and can easily be argued against.
The rest of us have been talking about NOT using simple, uncontrollable stats to compare players, like Wins and RBI’s.
Getting to valid comparable stats does NOT require any theoretical anything. Everything we’ve discussed today can be accomplished without touching one of those formulas.
Strikeouts, run support, earned and unearned runs, contact percentages, swing and miss, all of these are simple, countable, traceable events in baseball games that are much more accurate at determining a pitchers value than Wins. Nothing fancy, no insane mathematical background required to understand them. Just common sense, which seems to be lacking around here in large portions. Wins/Losses would have to be the least useful of stats to compare 2 pitchers.
Erica sounds good. I thought you were a little young for me but it sounds good. And you’re loaded too. We can stay at a five star hotel and eat somewhere nice. What time are you through work?
I’ll never understand how in the world managers like Al Lopez, Walter Alston, John MacGraw and Casey Stengel or GMs like Ed Rarrow, Bing Devine, George Weiss and Branch Rickey were so successful without computers to tell them who to play and when. Pure uneducated luck, I suppose.
Hey Uncle E got room for two more?
Comet!
Uncle Ellsworth
February 18th, 2010 at 1:52 pm
All posters who are over 30 report to carrousel.
Renew! Renew!
****************
I am not there…. yet hehehe
GB7 – sarcasm? sad.
Comet
February 18th, 2010 at 1:55 pm
Erica sounds good. I thought you were a little young for me but it sounds good. And you’re loaded too. We can stay at a five star hotel and eat somewhere nice. What time are you through work?
**********************
I am loaded????? LOL. So glad I give that impression. Don’t let my blossoming gambling addiction fool you.
Sadly, my employers own me until April 15th, but please have a wonderful time in ST and send me a post card!!!
Tom B – pro-yankee/pro-sabre/anti-uninformed opinions
February 18th, 2010 at 1:55 pm
GB7 – You are talking about the theoretical formulas(ERA+, OPS+, wRC+, stuff like that). I am not. They have basically nothing to do with this conversation, as they are all theoretical and can easily be argued against.
————————————————————
Then you’d better go back and read what I was talking about and what you 4 wizards of baseball are talking about.
Reall World.
Spring Training!
think of the possabilities.
Nick
Trisha
Bodi
GB7
Erica
M
Randy1.,.. the list goes on and on
It would put Jersey Shore to shame
Uncle E that’s great. Does it have a balconey? we can sleep out there? Erica and Doreen and Erin too are you in?
Tom B – pro-yankee/pro-sabre/anti-uninformed opinions
February 18th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
GB7 – sarcasm? sad.
————————————————————
And arrogance is dangerous.
GB7 – you only have to be as smart or smarter than those around you in order to excel. 50 years ago the knowledge they had fit with the times. you don’t think that they were doing more than just looking at the surface stats to make their decisions? you think that just because we can more accurately represent something than they could, it has less value?
you must hate science.
During the course of season, you get no style points. Ugly wins better than pretty losses any day of the week.
After the season, at contract time and when looking at free agents to build your team, then you disect the facts and figures. Or at the end of a career. When the total picture really is before you. That’s one reason why they wait a few years, I think, before a player is eligible for the HOF.
Each individual statistic, taken individually, doesn’t tell you much. But most people I know who are real baseball fans don’t look at one statistic and make a blanket statement about a player. Most that I know pore over, at the very least, box scores and the “standard” stats.
Advanced statistics I believe can be useful in playing out a game. How a player might be expected to perform under certain conditions and in certain circumstances. But, still, since things have to be played out, no guarantees.
The search for an overall statistic to tell you “everything you need to know about a player” is kind of a commendable undertaking. But the explanation of that statistic is too convulated to be of much meaning to any but the most devoted statistical devotees. You can tell me that player A has an overall performance number of 135 and player B has an overall performance number of 142, and I will certainly be able to see that player B has a better overall performance number. But it really tells me nothing because it’s incredibly difficult to EXPLAIN what went into that number.
Much to the frustration of many, it seems, baseball isn’t really a game where you can isolate performances. You can try. But the variables get unwieldy and the formulas look like they’re reaching (I’m not sayng they are, but they look like it). But everything that happens in baseball happens in context, not in a vacuum, and everything has an effect on what players are able to do.
I do see a great deal of value in being able to compare players on as even a playing field as possible – a one-size-fits-all stat, so to speak. Just not all the time. And it’s not necessary to know all the advanced statistics to be able to speak about how “X” player compares to “Y” player.
Erica so sad you can’t make it! I’m only 56. That why you’re not coming it’s the age thing isn’t it?
C
Erica, It does appear that The Wang-Man is headed to Washington, however it hasn’t been finalized….That being said, I saved $ 25.00 dollars for just this occasion…..When that time arrives, you tell me how to send it to you………..WAVE….We can simply go off of the Vegas team over / unders…..Trust me they’re far more accurate than any of the sites that many here promote as gospel…..We can go right down the line,make our picks independent of each other, and who gets the most correct takes the pot……Been doing for many years, and been very successful…..And no I don’t read subscribe to any fangraphs or any other nonsense
Pat M-
I’m not a gambling man, I suspect you’d take me to the cleaners. I just thought a simple game of Guess The Standings would be in the spirit of the blog.
Tom B – pro-yankee/pro-sabre/anti-uninformed opinions
February 18th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
GB7 – you only have to be as smart or smarter than those around you in order to excel. 50 years ago the knowledge they had fit with the times. you don’t think that they were doing more than just looking at the surface stats to make their decisions? you think that just because we can more accurately represent something than they could, it has less value?
you must hate science.
————————————————————
I’ll put gut reaction and feel for the game that they had over a computer generated decision any time, and win.
I don’t hate science, but, when science interferes with sports, it’s time to junk science.
Tom B….What pitch gave you the most trouble ??? For me it was the hard moving down away pitch, I just couldn’t keep from biting at it…..Does that pitch exsist on your x-box game ????
GB7 – i read all your posts today and i honestly cannot tell what you are trying to talk about, if anything. you just lash out with posts like “50 years ago they didn’t need these numbers to win ballgames” and then tell us we are “attacking” you because we understand these concepts better than you. how is that constructive in any way? do you wander into research labs and berate the scientists because they have a better understanding of physics than you? and then tell them you know better because your elementary school science textbook told you things were a certain way, and that’s good enough?
Erica/Nick in SF
In regaurds to the bet, you ended up breaking even right?
“I say if you are talking intrinsic value RBIs don’t help, and you tell me I’m wrong because they don’t help to determine past value either.”
I don’t believe I ever said you were wrong. I wasn’t exactly sure what you were getting at in your original reply so I tried to clarify my stance. I understand where you’re coming from and I agree with you.
A player with 156 RBI in a year obviously had a good year but there are better stats that are completely reliant on the player that can tell me the same thing and more.
Lets say I have a pair of roller skates and a car. They both perform the same function – getting me from point a to point b. If I have a car, why would I use the roller skates? The car is much faster, safer, etc. Thus the roller skates become useless.
RBI’s are the same way. Yes they tell me something but there are so many better stats out there that RBI’s basically become worthless.
And I haven’t had any coffee today!
resistance is futile
Wave Your Hat
February 18th, 2010 at 2:05 pm
Pat M-
I’m not a gambling man, I suspect you’d take me to the cleaners. I just thought a simple game of Guess The Standings would be in the spirit of the blog.
************
Don’t sell yourself short. Even blog fluff like me can beat Pat in a bet!
NYY626
February 18th, 2010 at 2:09 pm
Erica/Nick in SF
In regaurds to the bet, you ended up breaking even right?
**********
Nothing official, but its looking that way-
Wang hasn’t officially signed with the Nats yet. And theoretically, Johnny COULD still return.
Just got in. So whos these 4 musketeers GB keeps talking about?
All this time i thought calculus was crap just for the really really smart people killing to kill time. Boy, i should have taken math past algebra a bit more serious.
Next there going to come out with a field soil ratings. Cleats with more addidas stripes on them make you go faster in the ratings.
Dirt on jersey ratings.
Maple ratings
Big league chew vs. sun flower ratings
Did i miss any?
Doreen,
In the end, the only thing that matters most is the result.
We can enjoy the oohs and the ahs, the highs and the lows, within the game, but all that matters is whether or not your team won the game or the series or the championship.
Wave, I’m not trying to be a hump, I just want some of the new wave baseball guys to put up or shut up…It seems to me that they would have the advantage with all the +’s & -’s and graphs and flow charts…..You know that over the years I’ve respected your takes and opions…..It’s when it’s shoved down our throats by some who many of us have forgotten more about the game that they know…..Balance is a key to life in many aspects, including the evlauation of ballplayers……CB was instrumental in showing me that, but he understands the balance of the game
Uh to be quite honest, most “advanced” stats are pretty easily understood without any serious math skills.
Comet
February 18th, 2010 at 2:02 pm
Erica so sad you can’t make it! I’m only 56. That why you’re not coming it’s the age thing isn’t it?
**************
Trust me, its work. Not the age thing. I am so desperate for time away from work I’d even go with GB7 and he is REALLY old!
Hey Erica at least you’re interested. Doreen’s giving me the brush off. My feeling are hurt. Sorry about work.
C
Actually, what you believe is that if others don’t accept your beliefs, they just aren’t as intelligent as you and aren’t worthy of your knowledge. What you said to Mel proves that.
If they factor in all of the variables into these formulas, then, maybe it’s useful. Until then, it’s mainly BS.
“Tom B….What pitch gave you the most trouble ??? For me it was the hard moving down away pitch, I just couldn’t keep from biting at it”
Not aimed at me but reminds me of a story.
I remember back in 11th grade, I was a smallish right-handed hitter and our high school was facing this team with a senior pitching who rumor had it was going to be drafted that summer.
Well, he had a good fastball and he came with a pitch headed straight for my head. I hit the dirt and thanked God when the pitch missed me.
Well imagine my embarrassment when the ump called a strike. Seems the ball just broke right over the plate and that was that.
Right then and there I knew I was going to need another line of work to make a living.
m -
Amen to that!
*****************************
RBIs tell you that the guy who has the RBIs was able to bat in runs when the opportunity presented itself. Yes, it is dependent on people getting on base ahead of you, but if they didn’t you wouldn’t get a run batted in. You could get up with guys on base and NOT bat them in. So RBIs are useful in telling you that in a situation where runs could be batted in, the guy was able to do it.
pat m – i don’t understand your video games comment at all. i observe and study baseball more than the average person. people automatically assume that because you understand more advanced statistics, you have no touch with the game in the real world. this could not be farther from the truth. i supplant the knowledge i already have of the game from playing and watching it for 20 something years with better and more accurate ways of tracking the things i’m watching.
how is that a bad thing?
Comet
February 18th, 2010 at 1:59 pm
Uncle E that’s great. Does it have a balconey? we can sleep out there? Erica and Doreen and Erin too are you in?
***********************
Of course! Count me in
Pat M-
You know I’m somewhat partial to the stats but what I like about this blog is the range of opinions and generally nice people. It would be a shame if one set of opinions won out over any others or drove anyone away.
If I have a car, why would I use the roller skates? The car is much faster, safer, etc. Thus the roller skates become useless.
======
If depends if its in rush hour traffic or not.
That reminds me. Why do ten speed riders think its o.k. to be riding their bikes in the streets with cars? Sitting in front of me on a turn signal. Seriously, what happened to bikes stay by the side walk? One day im going to ACCIDENTLY let my foot off the brakes.
Pat M.
February 18th, 2010 at 2:03 pm
Erica, It does appear that The Wang-Man is headed to Washington, however it hasn’t been finalized….That being said, I saved $ 25.00 dollars for just this occasion…..When that time arrives, you tell me how to send it to you………..
***************
We’ll square up when things are official!
Erica – always OPPC
February 18th, 2010 at 2:14 pm
Comet
February 18th, 2010 at 2:02 pm
Erica so sad you can’t make it! I’m only 56. That why you’re not coming it’s the age thing isn’t it?
**************
Trust me, its work. Not the age thing. I am so desperate for time away from work I’d even go with GB7 and he is REALLY old!
————————————————————
AHEM!!!!
I may not be able to spell or type, but, I can still read.
Doreen – yes, but it requires context. “RBI’s per chance of RBI” or something like that would work to greatly even the field where you have some players with many many more RBI opportunities than others. If 2 players have 100 RBI’s, but one of them had twice as many chances at RBI’s, the one with less chances is likely the “better” player.
Nothing official, but its looking that way-
Wang hasn’t officially signed with the Nats yet. And theoretically, Johnny COULD still return.
****************************************
Erica,
If damon signs, lets say with the tigers, but then returns to the yankees in a trade just before the deadline – would you get half your money back?
Just got back from talking to Girardi. New post.
This entire conversation can go away if you stop trying to make the argument that because you personally don’t like using the new stats, they aren’t legitimate.
Also, stop tying stats and formulas into the same thing, it makes you look silly.
Patrick -
They’re not self-evident or intuitive, many of them.
I am sure if one had the time, patience and desire to sit down and learn the more complex formulae it could be done (except if one is math-impaired).
But I did go to fangraphs yesterday. For the first time. First thing I did was hit the glossary. But I needed a glossary for some of the definitions.
I went to the player pages for a couple of players (not pitchers yet). To be fair, a good deal of those statistics are easy enough to decipher. But those are the the ones that simply put up a ration – percentage of fastballs, walk to strikeout, swings at outside pitches, those kinds of things.
But once you get to those “all-in-one” status – wRC+ – that’s where I get lost. I find myself with questions like – why 100 as the baseline? Why multiply non-intentional walks by that particular number, etc. Where did those numbers come from?
When you talk about creating wins – I realize that boatloads of game data was fed into computers, I assume to try and reconstruct game situations and what doing a particular thing has, over time, repeatedly resulted in a particular outcome. And maybe I have a mental block on these things, or maybe if I sat down with one of you in a room with a page of statistics in front of us I would be able to see where it all originated and how it really works. But for the life of me, I don’t get that part of.
In essence, though, it is not important for the purposes of most fans in this forum to have that deep an understanding of those numbers. I agree with RayVT (I think it was him) who talked about having heard about how good Teixeira was, having looked at his stats on various websites, and still not getting the whole picture until he had actually seen him play for the Yankees on a daily basis this past season.
You need both. And my biggest gripe is, on both sides, people diminishing each other’s strongly held opinions, and on the one side, of some of the sabre-centric believing you can’t have a good baseball discussion until you give in to the idea the pitcher wins are useless and RBIs are bogus, for example.
Tom B – pro-yankee/pro-sabre/anti-uninformed opinions
February 18th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
Doreen – yes, but it requires context. “RBI’s per chance of RBI” or something like that would work to greatly even the field where you have some players with many many more RBI opportunities than others. If 2 players have 100 RBI’s, but one of them had twice as many chances at RBI’s, the one with less chances is likely the “better” player.
I can readily agree to this statement.
Doreen – I appreciate your willingness to understand. I wish others around here shared that, but I think that some people just enjoy being stubborn, they find some comfort in claiming to be “old school” if you will.
To each his own, I guess.
Tom B -
And really, there you have it. To each his own.
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/201.....nt-1236366