All about television
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Feb 23, 2010 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
Let me add a belated congratulations and good luck to Jack Curry, who’s joining the YES Network after more than two decades at the New York Times. I haven’t known Jack nearly as long as some of the other guys on the beat, but he’s always been terrific to me. Helpful. Friendly. Willing to point me in the right direction. He’ll be great for YES.
Also, former Yankees third baseman Aaron Boone is moving to television, retiring from baseball to take a job with ESPN. I don’t believe I’ve ever met Boone, but I’ve also never met a single person who didn’t think the world of him.
While we’re on the subject of television, Bronx Bombers Beat has a list of all the Yankees spring training games that will be televised on YES, MLB Network or ESPN.
Thanks for posting and good luck to Mr. Curry…
I look forward to see him (and some YANKEES SPRING TRAINING BASEBALL) in 8 short days!
Yep, that was a good move by YES to hire Jack Curry…I wondered what he was going to do after he left the NY Times
“5% is too small. 20% is to high. 8- 12% feels about right. 10% is in the middle of that.”
Again, I’m looking for insight as to how you arrive at those numbers. Why does 10% “feel” right to you?
Is there s premise behind those numbers based on some sort of control figure, or simply a guess?
Good for Mr. Curry.
Also, Boonie can bring some class to the ESPN baseball crew.
Gammons out, Boone in, a step in the right direction.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn.....id=4938135
An English rugby player has become the first player to be suspended after testing positive for HGH.
“It’s the first time and very significant,” WADA director general David Howman said. “It shows the people who say that HGH cannot be detected that it can. The sports people who said it can’t be detected are fooling themselves.”
Implications for baseball? My take – let’s see HGH testing, MLBPA.
Patrick
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:21 pm
What does OPPC stand for
————————————————————
OPPC
Obnoxious People Pushing Crap (stats).
”Is there s premise behind those numbers based on some sort of control figure, or simply a guess?”
kind of an educated guess based on catching pitchers who’ve won a few thousand mlb games.
of course, the more i caught the less i knew. when i first started i knew as much as you do now.
it’s that beginner’s mind thing.
Well I guess Boone does not want Yankee fans to remember him for his HR. After a couple Seasons ESPN will have him brainwashed and he will be just another idiot Red Sox loving ESPN “Expert”. Sad to see it end like this for Mr. Boone.
Really? Jack Curry to YES?
I’ve read Curry’s work in the Times for years, and think he’s a heckuva sports journalist. If used correctly, he’s a tremendous addition to YES’ baseball coverage. A real coup.
kind of disappointed the yankees game against their future stars wont be televised
http://twitter.com/OzzieGuillen
Ozzie on twitter. Is this for real?
don’t sabermetric people believe that hitters do not hit differently in different situations which is why they think clutch doesn’t exist.
i really don’t see how a sabermetrically inclined person could even look at what cano is doing because it seems they’d be admitting that hitters can be bad clutch hitters.
cano was bad last year with men in scoring position, and it seems like he’s always had trouble with the bases loaded.
–
This is stupid, you’re associating a thought ‘clutch’ with things that are most definitely not, which is situational hitting and the various factors that go into it. I do not believe clutch exists, at least not in the sense that ‘Player X is clutch!’ Unless a player has such a clear statistical bump in ‘clutch’ situations over the course of many ABs, would I ever consider a player clutch. The simple fact is, most players, when they get enough PAs, end up with very similiar numbers in all situations.
Lets say Derek Jeter is ‘clutch’, he hits .380 when the pressure is on and .300 in low pressure situations. My thought would be ‘Why is Derek Jeter not applying himself 100% in non pressure situations?’ In which case, a clutch player is just a lazy player. But I don’t think clutch exists. A-rod & Jeter have RISP and Postseason numbers that are very similiar to their career lines, and one is clutch and the other isn’t by popular opinion.
I just believe there is statistical variation year to year and that over the long run things will even out. Some players might have a play style that is not conducive to certain situations, a swing and miss player in a situation where they have to swing, and I think ‘sabermetric’ stats can be used to look at this.
You can look at Swing%, Contact%, Swings outside of the zone, and as HitFX, PitchFX, and PLayerFX become more sophisticated I’m sure there will be more things.
A ‘scout’ might look at Cano with RISP and say ‘He’s swinging at garbage!’ but a sabermetrician might be able to find the exact hitting zone, and type of pitch which results in the softest hit balls, representing weak contact (using hitFX and playerFx)
I think it is unfair, and certainly one of your trademarks, to paint sabermetrics with a ridiculous brush of ‘everyone does the same all the time’ in this clutch argument.
David Ortiz, supposed clutch superstar, hits the same close and late that he did for his career in the red sox. He hit alot of HRs, but everyone remembers the close and late homers and deems him clutch. He was just good.
And when I am watching a game, in the moment, I will yell things like ‘Clutch!’ when Matsui gets an RBI single, but we know he was merely good in RBI situations, not other worldly or clutch. He was just MAtsui, who is a good hitter.
GreenBeret7
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:40 pm
Patrick
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:21 pm
What does OPPC stand for
————————————————————
OPPC
Obnoxious People Pushing Crap (stats).
***********
Come on GB7!! You know better than that! I don’t even know what half the stats that get sprouted off here mean!!!
Official Positive Posters Club
Bigmouth ESPN idiots at it again.
Kornheiser insults Hannah Storm on the air.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/201.....kornheiser
Erica – always OPPC
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:53 pm
GreenBeret7
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:40 pm
Patrick
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:21 pm
What does OPPC stand for
————————————————————
OPPC
Obnoxious People Pushing Crap (stats).
***********
Come on GB7!! You know better than that! I don’t even know what half the stats that get sprouted off here mean!!!
Official Positive Posters Club
————————————————————
Well, it could have meant that. No problem. Most of them haven’t got a clue as how to use them anyway.
When someone like Jack Curry opines on YES that trading Hughes/Joba and Montero plus stuff for Halladay would be a great trade for the Yankees, it’s hard for me to take him seriously.
“This is stupid, you’re associating a thought ‘clutch’ with things that are most definitely not, which is situational hitting and the various factors that go into it. I do not believe clutch exists, at least not in the sense that ‘Player X is clutch!’”
jerkface-
well, you must believe in “unclutch” then because there’s a definite bump downwards with cano.
you’d say as i said you would that cano’s hitting will average out over time and approach his career numbers.
you’re just spouting the sabermetric doctrine.
is kevin long “stupid” for trying to raise cano’s hitting abiity in such situations and teach him how to hit with men on base.
i mean according to you and the sabermetric doctrine, it’ll work out over time.
this was and probably will be Greinke’s career year as he will not pitch to low 2 eras’ over his career.
as far as what Joba or Hughes peak year performance will be like how do you propose to be so certain to know what they will never accomplish in their careers?
your a fan who posts on a blog whose probably never thrown a real pitch in your life and probably has no clue what the difference is between a 4 seam grip and a 2 seam grip.
Curious what was Greinke’s era over his 1st 40 major league starts because Joba’s was 3.61 pitching against the toughest lineups in baseball.
Greinke by the way was fortunate not to face the Yanks at all last year and I think he pitched against the RedSox once. Makes a differnce when your facing the Tigers,Twins and the White Sox 10 times a season as opposed to lineups like the Yanks,RedSux,Rays and even the Orioles who’d have a top two lineup in the AL Central if they played in that division this year.
Be careful about prognosticating that a 23 yr old pitcher with all the talent in the world can’t ever be as good as the new flavor who also struggled in his initial seasons as well.
For shi#s and giggles compare Joba’s 1st 40 starts in the majors to say Halladay’s and you’ll see even with the terrible last stretch of 2 and 3 inning starts in aug and sept he’s way ahead of where Halladay was at this point of his career.
—
There is a lot of ridiculous stuff in here so I will try to address all of it. I will bet you 5 dollars (which neither of us will ever collect) that by the time Greinke’s career is over, he will have multiple 2 ERA seasons. Unless they allow Cyborgs to hit. Greinke is an amazing pitcher, I am not sure if you are aware of how nasty he is. He can add and subtract from all of his pitches at will. Famous anecdote he looked at his teammate and said, “First pitch I’m gonna throw my first batter will be a 70 MPH curveball, then a 95 MPH fastball” and sure enough he did both of them on the dot.
He was a top prospect who dealt with anxiety/depression issues and is now over them.
Next you ask what I am basing this on? First of all I know how to hold a 4seam and a 2seam, just because I am on the internet does not mean I have never played baseball, catch, softball, or hit the batting cages. That has no merit on the discussion. My opinion is based on the tools that Joba and Hughes show vs what Greinke has. My personal expectation, based on watching hundreds of games of baseball, is that it is unreasonable to expect Hughes or Joba to throw up a season like Greinke. They do not have Felix’s experience and arsenal, nor Greinkes arsenal and command. Maybe I would revise this statement in a season or two, but right now Joba’s velocity is iffy and Hughes has 2 pitches.
Greinkes beginning is moot because he dealt with a lot of off the field issues and is playing in a terrible organization. And Roy Halladay had to be completely torn down. Pitchers are not direct comparisons, as no pitchers follow the same path. A lot of pitchers have shown an excellent beginning and failed, or floundered and then found it.
How about we let Joba and Hughes have a full season as a starter before we start saying they are going to pitch to a 2 ERA?
I think its optimistic enough to say they will be top 15 starters.
al and jete
http://www.daylife.com/photo/0.....?q=yankees
well, you must believe in “unclutch” then because there’s a definite bump downwards with cano.
you’d say as i said you would that cano’s hitting will average out over time and approach his career numbers.
you’re just spouting the sabermetric doctrine.
is kevin long “stupid” for trying to raise cano’s hitting abiity in such situations and teach him how to hit with men on base.
i mean according to you and the sabermetric doctrine, it’ll work out over time.
–
First of all, define clutch. Is it any RBI opportunity? Because most people cannot agree on when clutch is. And I think that is very possible that Cano has trouble in certain situations due to how he is being pitched, but its not UNCLUTCH of Cano to struggle in those situations, especially when he has done just fine in the past.
I mean come on, Cano hits excellently with 1 and 3, Man on 3, Man on 3rd less than 2 outs, and a man on 1st.
So when is being ‘unclutch’, there are factors at work which might contribute to Cano failing in the OTHER situations that are not ‘cano is unclutch’.
I’m of the opinion that troubles that players have in ‘clutch’ situations can be worked out and are usually not found in the players bones. I dont believe some players ‘rise to the occasion’, because if that were the case then it would not be something that could be corrected. You’d have it or you don’t.
Cano is not unclutch, he is failing to make good contact in RISP situations and needs to alter his approach.
It looks like they hate each other
Thanks for passing along the schedule, Chad. Very helpful!
“David Ortiz, supposed clutch superstar, hits the same close and late that he did for his career in the red sox.”
doing the same or better is “clutch” by my definition.
if can could do the same thing he does with no one in scoring position he’d be clutch.
right now he’s unclutch or choking like a dog with men in scoring position.
long is obviously trying to get cano to be himself when he’s in a pressure situation.
i’m just pointing out that you and the people who think clutch doesn’t exist must think kevin long is wasting his time.
your recommendation that cano should just wait until the sample gets big enough speaks for itself.
your recommendation that cano should just wait until the sample gets big enough speaks for itself.
–
I never said this, and its just an example of you just saying whatever you want and then arguing against it.
Sabermetrics is perfectly capable of analyzing Cano’s deficiencies and finding out what could be changed to help him where is failing. That is my point. Sabermetrics is not simply ‘This player will always play to their career!’ It is also used for helping players to get better.
You also ignored the information I presented where Cano has been just fine in certain man on situations. He was also very unluckhy, as acknowledged by Girardi, with RISP in 2009. I can remember a ton of ABs that ended in lineouts.
randy, I’m not sure I COMPLETELY trust you to accurately and fairly represent opposing viewpoints when you argue against them.
In 2008 Cano was awesome in every situation except man on first, man on second, and man on third 2 outs.
He hit .300 or close in almost every other situation!
Maybe he has trouble with a runner dancing around on second?
Jerkface
You can say that again. How many times did Cano rip a ball right at the LF with RISP. Countless.
Looking at Cano’s career splits year by year is interesting. He is usually never wholly sucktastic with RISP, he always excels in some situations.
In 2007, and 2006 he was pretty amazing with RISP. Like in every situation. What changed? did his clutch bone fall out? Or did pitchers adjust and now Cano has to adjust back?
Thats not clutch, thats baseball.
nick in sf-
i just simply realized that kevin long working with cano to improve his hitting with men in scoring position flies in the face of sabermetric doctrine.
i’ll admit it’s kind of a gotcha because obviously kevin long thinks cano needs help and that small samples isn’t the only problem.
i’m pointing out that sabermetrically inclined people have no way to help cano improve.
watch how much difficulty they have talking about what’s going on with cano.
it’s an important point ,and fixing cano is a good example of the differences between new school and old school approaches.
the new school guys wouldn’t do anything.
doesn’t that strike you as an odd approach to take with cano?
There’s only so much clutchiness that can go around.
With Melky McClutcherson gone, Cano will be teh clutch in 2010!
“i’m pointing out that sabermetrically inclined people have no way to help cano improve.”
I don’t know much about sabermetrics, but you say they don’t believe in coaching???
“Or did pitchers adjust?”
they only adjust when there’s men in scoring position?
seems like once they found a way to get cano out they’d do it all the time.
i just simply realized that kevin long working with cano to improve his hitting with men in scoring position flies in the face of sabermetric doctrine.
i’ll admit it’s kind of a gotcha because obviously kevin long thinks cano needs help and that small samples isn’t the only problem.
i’m pointing out that sabermetrically inclined people have no way to help cano improve.
watch how much difficulty they have talking about what’s going on with cano.
it’s an important point ,and fixing cano is a good example of the differences between new school and old school approaches.
the new school guys wouldn’t do anything.
doesn’t that strike you as an odd approach to take with cano?
–
All of this is made up gobbly gook. I told you a specific way that sabermetrics could help identify Cano’s weaknesses. I can only imagine what stat break downs the Yankees have that are not publiclly available, like swing % by zone and by pitch and whatever.
A scout would have to watch every pitch to tell Cano, “You are swinging at too many sliders down and away” but you can just look at a compiled stat sheet that says “Swing and Miss on Sliders in Quadrant X” and deduce that its too much.
I trust Kevin Long to ALWAYS work to improve the hitters on the Yankees, but many things are also just stupid stuff they say to placate the media, we hear it every spring training:
- I’m in the best shape of my career
- I worked on adding X pitch!
- I really worked on cutting down my X problem!
- This year I’m going to focus on this!
And how often does any of that pay off?
Player A has the same season he always had
Player B never uses the cutter
Player C puts up the same secondary stats
Player D’s focus never pays off
It could just be a mechnical thing that Cano needs to work on, and K Long wants him to get it into his muscle memory.
“seems like once they found a way to get cano out they’d do it all the time.”
Seems like once the uber-clutchsters figure out how to turn on their clutchiness, they’d do it all the time.
Hmmmmm.
seems like once they found a way to get cano out they’d do it all the time.
–
Perhaps there is a pitch that Cano is more likely to chase in certain situations or counts, that he would layoff or step in on with no men on.
Thats not a ‘clutch’ issue.
“David Ortiz, supposed clutch superstar, hits the same close and late that he did for his career in the red sox.”
I am getting here late but, Checking Ortiz stats from 2004 I would call his numbers with risp and late and close as being very clutch. Which is just how I remembered that year.
http://www.baseball-reference......4&t=b
I don’t know much about sabermetrics, but you say they don’t believe in coaching???
nick in sf-
you can see jerkface saying there is no such thing as clutch.
he’s clearly said its just one of those things that will work out over time with cano as he gets more at bats. no coaching necessary.
Ortiz was clutch in 2004?
I thought it was his syringes that were clutch!
“he’s clearly said its just one of those things that will work out over time with cano as he gets more at bats. no coaching necessary.”
Can you show me where he said that the way you characterized it?
Jim Pir – one
LOL.
randy
I think you are confusing the state/trait issue.
Clutch hitting exists, but it’s not more of a state than a trait. Players get clutch hits in given situations, but that doesn’t necessarily make them clutch players.
There was a study done some years ago which found that there were truly clutch players: Paul Molitor and Tony Fernandez.
But every player in MLB has had lots of clutch hits in their baseball careers. That’s how they got to the MLs.
Randy, Here’s a good video on stats in baseball and how they are used today:
http://msn.foxsports.com/video.....rts_cp_mlb
.301 .380 .603 .983 2004
350 .431 .594 1.025 RISP nice! He hit for less power though
.188 .333 .313 Man on third, I thought he was clutch?
278 .350 .556 .906 2 outs RISP, oh no! Not clutch!! worse than normal!!
324 .380 .634 1.014 Late and close, nice! Pretty much his normal but with slightly more power!
315 .396 .663 1.059 High Leverage
291 .363 .542 .905 Medium Lev
.304 .387 .635 1.022 Low leverage
Why does ORtiz hate medium leverage situations?
In Ortiz’s Career
.298 .403 .526 .928 RISP
297 .396 .537 .933 Men On
.273 .378 .547 .926 Late and close
.282 .377 .545 .922 ORtiz in his career line
Its almost like… Ortiz hits around where he always does… for his career… because he is good
“I thought it was his syringes that were clutch!”
We can defer to your new ESPN hero, Aaron Boone. Surely he could talk intelligently about syringes in the clutch.
I don’t think anyone has ever said that sabermetrics is against coaching. That’d be stupid.
You can’t coach clutch though, you either have it or you don’t.
The lack of clutch existence as a character trait is not the same as the lack of coaching baseball fundamentals.
No sabermetrician would ever argue against teaching players how to play the game.
“We can defer to your new ESPN hero, Aaron Boone. Surely he could talk intelligently about syringes in the clutch.”
Suggesting Aaron Boone used steroids? LOL
“I just believe there is statistical variation year to year and that over the long run things will even out.”-jerkface
nick in sf-
there you go.
“You can’t coach clutch though, you either have it or you don’t.”
Well, that depends on how someone defines what ‘clutch’ is, no?
Jim Pir – one February 23rd, 2010 at 10:57 pm
“We can defer to your new ESPN hero, Aaron Boone. Surely he could talk intelligently about syringes in the clutch.”
Suggesting Aaron Boone used steroids? LOL
You would think he would have said A-Rod lol
there you go.
–
Evens out != “Durr don’t do anything!”
Luck on balls in play, adjusting to pitchers, changing an approach, adjusting your game as you get older
None of those relate to clutch. Like I said if CLUTCH existed, it wouldn’t make sense, because players should always just play up to their ‘clutch’ potential. But it does not exist as is defined by many. Any player can have a hot year with RISP, but in the long run their statistics will even out.
For the reasons above
Hot year
Adjusting
Changing approach
Pitchers increasing in difficulty
A pitch is used more by opponents that a player has trouble with
A bad luck year
All these can contribute to a specific season, but if you look at a career, the numbers will be strikingly close together.
randy, what about the second part of your formulation? Isn’t he supposed to then say that no coaching can help Cano improve in the situations that some would define as ‘clutch’ or ‘unclutch’? It seems like he addressed that topic at length.
Well, that depends on how someone defines what ‘clutch’ is, no?
–
Clutch is whatever is convienent for an ‘old school’ type persons argument at the time.
Nice link Tom, Thanks.
I may have just been converted to sabre side of things. I found out “chicks love sabremetrics”.
my simple definition of clutch is someone doing as well in a pressure situation as they would in a non pressure situation.
we all can walk over a ten foot 2×6 when it’s one foot off the ground.
put it between buildings 100 feet up and very few can do it.
why not?
it’s the same task.
the consequences change and when they do it makes it very difficult to just do what you did before with no pressure.
pressure changes things.
and it’s not a character issue. i think it’s a learned skill.
In San Francisco, most people opt against ‘clutch’ and go for ‘automatic’.
put it between buildings 100 feet up and very few can do it.
why not?
it’s the same task.
–
It is most definitely not the same task. Wind, gravity, air pressure, and other factors will come into play.
Put a plank on the floor and simulate the above and I’d be more confident doing it 100 stories up.
“I just believe there is statistical variation year to year and that over the long run things will even out”
Insomuch as Cano probably won’t hit .205 or whatever i was with RISP again this year, this is probably true. However, over his career, his average and OPS with the bases empty is .331 and .892 respectively. With RISP he loses 75 points on his average and 200 on his OPS. With men on he loses 50 points on his average and 160 points on his OPS.
After 5 years worth of evidence, it seems obvious he’s simply a different guy with men on moreso than the victim of year to year variation. Don’t know how it get’s fixed, but after 2 years as hitting coach, Long hasn’t helped him figure it out either I’m not counting on him helping figure it out now. Think we’re better off hoping the year to year variation worls more favorably this year.
Philippe Petit was clutch.
It’s also not the same task because you don’t have an opponent when you’re walking a plank, either in placid ground conditions or at altitude.
In an at-bat there’s the pitcher and the hitter. How many times was David Ortiz’s ‘clutchiness’ aided by the pitcher gripping the ball a little tighter, missing his spot by an inch, etc?
If it’s a learned skill, why is there so much season to season variability?
Jeter RISP:
2009: .259 .380 .356 .736
2008: .317 .385 .424 .809
2007: .354 .426 .456 .882
2006: .381 .482 .581 1.063
2005: .261 .386 .355 .741
After 5 years worth of evidence, it seems obvious he’s simply a different guy with men on moreso than the victim of year to year variation. Don’t know how it get’s fixed, but after 2 years as hitting coach, Long hasn’t helped him figure it out either I’m not counting on him helping figure it out now. Think we’re better off hoping the year to year variation worls more favorably this year.
—
OPS 2007
.840
.833 Empty
.849 Men On
.963 Man on 1st
.893 1st and 2nd
1.121 1st and third
1.004 Less than 2 outs
Cano seems to have difficulty with runners on 2nd. Maybe its a vision thing.
Take the time to watch this:
http://vimeo.com/2065739
I miss Bobby Murcer.
randy,
Kevin Long is not working with Cano to be “more clutch.” He is working with Cano because in certain situations last year (happened to be with RISP) Cano got away from the hitter that he is.
If Cano hits .310 next year and .310 with RISP Cano will not be “clutch.” He will just be the good hitter that he is in every situation.
Sabermetrics does not proclaim that magically a player’s numbers with RISP will even out over time. It just basically says that over time good hitters will be good hitters in every situation and therefore their numbers will even out. If you are a good hitter like Cano, and for some reason you are getting away from your swing, mechanics, stance, whatever in certain situations this will eventually be corrected because you are too good a baseball player for it not to be.
However, working with your hitting coach can definitely be one the reason for this correction. These guys are professional baseball players. It is expected that when something goes wrong at this level it will be corrected by either you or someone. If you are unable to make this correction then you probably are not a good enough baseball player or hitter to bat .320 like Cano did last year.
“Suggesting Aaron Boone used steroids? LOL”
Would anybody be shocked if he did? His brother has to be considered an exceedingly likely candidate for PED use. I have no idea whether Aaron Boone used or not, but it’s hard to imagine he and his brother not exchanging some ideas.
Basically when a guy like Cano who has in his short and impressive career has had seasons in which he has hit .342, .306, and .320 it is illogical to think that over the course of his career he will continue to do the same exact wrong thing (mechanically or otherwise) in one particular situation without someone or something correcting that problem.
Aaron was always sort of skinny relative to his brother and the other juicers.
Robinson Cano is too good a hitter to have some mental or inner “thing” hold him back from making the adjustments necessary to excel in such a particular situation over the course of his career.
A situation like this is where I’d love to have a database of every players stats and splits so I could query players for the difference in OPS between their career totals and RISP, because if ‘clutch’ is just ‘doing career lines’ (Go tim raines!) then I’d wager almost every baseball player is clutch.
The classic definition of “clutch” is a player that is inherently better in high pressure situations. High pressure situations could be considered men on base, late in the game, in the playoffs, whatever. That means a player who regularly hits .300 will hit higher than that in these types of game situations.
Proof that such a player exists has never been established as far as I know. Sure there are players that have better playoff numbers than their career or players that have a few years where they are off the charts with men on base. However, given a large enough sample, I don’t believe a truly “clutch” player has been found.
Also I’d like to make it clear that so-called sabermetricians aren’t opposed to coaching; that’s just absurd. The fact that most players trend towards their average numbers while in clutch situations could very well be because of coaching and player adjustments.
randy, I guess your definition of clutch is different than the classic definition. You say that a clutch player performs the same in high pressure situations as he does regularly. Ok, if that’s your definition of clutch then there are scores of clutch players in baseball.
Real clutch is doing it in argyle pants:
http://sports.yahoo.com/olympi.....oly,219748
Jerkface
Are not some AB’s more important than others?
Are not some pitching situations more important than others?
Do not some players perform better than others in these situations?
For me that is clutch.
I think when you talk about a whole career, there is validity in
“statistical variation year to year and that over the long run things will even out”
But that does not mean clutch does not exist.
Speaking of Boone. Think about that game. Wasn’t Moose’s performance clutch. What about Posada’s hit. If you don’t feel those 2 examples were clutch, we should all just change the subject.
Also I have never heard anyone say clutch is ‘acting normally in every situation’ clutch is usually ‘elevating your game’
” Isn’t he supposed to then say that no coaching can help Cano improve in the situations that some would define as ‘clutch’ or ‘unclutch’? It seems like he addressed that topic at length.”
nick in sf-
that’s the gotcha thing.
jerkface is saying that cano is doing nothing different and is just getting poor results that will go away once the law of averages kicks in.
jerkface is a smart guy.
he sees the gotcha and will of course not say kevin long is wasting his time because cano’s numbers with men in scoring position over time will become the same as his numbers with no men in scoring position.
but what else are we to infer when jerkface says he’ll revert back to norm over time?
i’m really just pointing out that kevin long is at odds with jerkface on what to do with cano.
jerkface says just let it play out- except when he say pitchers pitch to cano differently and he needs to adjust.
of course this makes no sense because pitchers would always pitch differently to cano once they found a weakness.
he’s just winging it trying to make some sense of kevin long trying to improve cano’s hitting when he’s in pressure situations with men in scoring positions.
his position is a very clear weak link in the sabermetric position.
if you don’t think something exists , why would you try to coach it?
nick, you absolutely know that teeing off on the first hole of a very nice golf course with hundreds of people watching is very different that teeing off in the middle of the back nine.
it’s not a character thing. it is an acquired skill.
notice how jerkface tries to turn it into a character thing. that was always bill james objection to clutch- that it was a character thing.
bill james: :
“We are supposed to believe that athletes are athletes not merely because they are fast, strong, quick,and well conditioned, but because there is something special inside them, this character comes to the fore in the crucible of athletic competition. they are athletes, in other words, because they are better people than the rest of us.
My attitude toward this can probably be inferred from my tone.i do not believe that athletes are better people than the rest of us,I do not believe there is any such thing as an ability to perform in clutch situations.”
someone is a little touchy about clutch and character.
i’m not because i think it’s a learned skill.
Jerkface
Are not some AB’s more important than others?
Are not some pitching situations more important than others?
Do not some players perform better than others in these situations?
For me that is clutch.
–
Sure, many players get ‘clutch hits’, or ‘clutch outs’, or whatever. That doesnt mean they are clutch. I think the onus of proof is on you in terms of saying ‘are not some players better than others?’ Uh I dunno, dude, why don’t you do the statistical research and find out?
I think you’d be surprised at the numbers if you did though.
“jerkface is saying that cano is doing nothing different and is just getting poor results that will go away once the law of averages kicks in.”
Except, that’s not what he’s saying at all. Nick and Jerkface have both told you that’s not what’s being argued.
Randy you’ve entered full on troll mode, disengage from the discussion. I don’t have the patience to wade through that sack of bull you just wrote.
I value Nick in SF’s scoring in this situation, and I think I won, or atleast beat the spread.
Thanks for the Hal McCoy link, Chad.
I don’t think many people realize what a fantastic writer he is. Too late to appreciate him now, sadly, since his forced retirement.
“i’m not because i think it’s a learned skill.”
As I posted above, if it’s a learned skill, one would expect the skill be more stable than it has been with, for example, Jeter.
“Wasn’t Moose’s performance clutch. What about Posada’s hit”
Moose = incredibly clutch in that spot
Posada = incredibly lucky in that spot. That was a pop-up with eyes. .
Clutch is a learned skill?
Who teaches it?
“Sure, many players get ‘clutch hits’, or ‘clutch outs’, or whatever. That doesnt mean they are clutch.”
Dude, then why are they called clutch.
Sorry, randy, I gotta call ‘em as I see ‘em, and that was a lame gotcha. It depends on mischaracterizing some stuff that Jerkface has said and ignoring other stuff he’s said.
This goes back to what I said earlier about you not being COMPLETELY reliable in accurately and fairly representing opposing viewpoints when you argue against them.
Sometimes it seems like it all goes back to some old Bill James quote that rankled you or some ‘weenie’ that got under your skin in an email exchange 4 years ago.
(is that a fair characterization?
)
“Randy you’ve entered full on troll mode, disengage from the discussion. I don’t have the patience to wade through that sack of bull you just wrote.”
jerkface-
see, under pressure you are choking like a dog.
but hang in there.
over time you’ll get better .
like i said, it’s a learned skill.
“Dude, then why are they called clutch.”
A player can get a great hit, does that make them a great player?
Try not to squeeze the bat too tightly the next time your at bat with 2 outs and the winning run on 2nd…..What are you guys talking about……The ability to perform under increased pressure is the definition of clutch…..Ask Willie McCovey if he was clutch in the bottom of the 9th in game 7 of the 1962 WS…..
“Clutch is a learned skill?
Who teaches it?”
The syringes of Manny Ramirez!
Whose syringes do you think taught David Ortiz’ syringes clutchness!
Derek Jeter in his career
.317 .388 .459 .847 Not RISP
.308 .403 .429 .831 RISP
Seems that Jeter is not clutch. Sorry everyone.
“Speaking of Boone. Think about that game. Wasn’t Moose’s performance clutch. What about Posada’s hit. If you don’t feel those 2 examples were clutch, we should all just change the subject.”
————————–
This is the problem with players being deemed clutch players or doing something clutch.
The reason why I think the myth of clutch exists is because exact moments like the Boone game.
With RISP the sample eventually becomes so large that it evens out over time with the vast majority of players.
However for example, Game 7 of the WS down by 1 run, 2 outs, 3-2 count A-rod blasts a 2 run HR. The problem here is that this happens just one time. If somehow a player was able to accumulate thousands of at-bats in these “ultra-clutch” situations his numbers would reflect his career norms.
There are “clutch plays” but there is not really such a thing as a “clutch player”
“see, under pressure you are choking like a dog.”
I don’t think you believe that.
“Seems that Jeter is not clutch. Sorry everyone.”
Consistency > Clutch
Tom in NJ February 23rd, 2010 at 11:16 pm
Take the time to watch this:
http://vimeo.com/2065739
I miss Bobby Murcer.
Thanks a lot for this post. Man that was tough to watch
Try not to squeeze the bat too tightly the next time your at bat with 2 outs and the winning run on 2nd…..What are you guys talking about……The ability to perform under increased pressure is the definition of clutch…..Ask Willie McCovey if he was clutch in the bottom of the 9th in game 7 of the 1962 WS…..
–
Derek Jeters wild fluctuations in ability in certain situations suggests that he is not clutch. Fair statement?
“We are supposed to believe that athletes are athletes not merely because they are fast, strong, quick,and well conditioned, but because there is something special inside them, this character comes to therefore in the crucible of athletic competition. they are athletes, in other words, because they are better people than the rest of us.”
What I just posted above is what Bill James is talking about.
nick in sf-
you’re not really trying to see the simple point i’m making that kevin long is indeed trying to improve cano’s ability to hit in pressure situations ( men in scoring position).
maybe you don’t want clutch to exist either.
what’s your position on it by the way?
“Posada = incredibly lucky in that spot. That was a pop-up with eyes.”
You got a point there Frank, But what a glorious, Pedro deflating, pop-up it was.
Bubba Crosby hits a walk off HR to defeat the Orioles and keep the yankees in first place on a night when the Red Sox had won to pull within .5 games.
Clutch hit?
If so, is Bubba clutch?
Or are we only defining clutch moments by whimsy?
you’re not really trying to see the simple point i’m making that kevin long is indeed trying to improve cano’s ability to hit in pressure situations ( men in scoring position).
–
If you call that word vomit you posted a simple point, I’ve got a bridge to sell you to clutchtown.
Kevin Long and the coaching staff, with their huge binders of data and video (which you have not watched or analyzed) suggest that Cano is doing something wrong in situations that lead to bad results.
Kevin Long will now try to coach cano on this. It is not teaching him clutch, or else he’d do it to every player and make them amazing.
A pitcher must learn to repeat their delivery out of the stretch. If a pitcher can do it, are they clutch?
“Ask Willie McCovey if he was clutch in the bottom of the 9th in game 7 of the 1962 WS”
He says Felipe Alou and Hiller were pussies for not moving Matty Alou over. When I asked “Were YOU clutch?”, he told me to eff off.
So everything has to pass the numbers test?
Pat M.
What about the pitcher in that situation? Wouldn’t he feel the pressure just as much?
A clutch player is a player that does better in pressure situations than in non-pressure situations. The only way to prove that is to show with a large enough sample size that a player does better in clutch spots then he does otherwise.
And come on man, McCovey hit a rocket in 62, how was that not a good at-bat? I’m sure he felt the pressure, but the pitcher felt just as much or more pressure.
You should know that it takes hundreds to thousands of reps to break an athletic mechanical habit. This is not often able to be achieved in season, because a player would not have the energy to actually play.
I see nothing wrong in Kevin Long noticing a flaw, trying to get Cano to recognize it in season with some mental tips, but then really applying a fix in the offseason when cano can recondition his body.
Its why he made a simple change to Swisher’s stance in the world series, but completely overhauled it in the offseason.
He is not installing the clutch chip in Cano’s brain.
I’m sure the reason for rain and cold and heatspells were equally mystifying to people before someone discovered things like barometric pressure, humidity, and the worldly wind currents.
Clutch is not a mystical element that some players have or not. If it were I’d contend that EVERY major league baseball player has it on the virtue of being better than 99% of baseball players on the planet.
Because they were more clutch than their peers and that is why they ascended to baseballs highest level.
Its all subjective crap.
Jerkface
Why are they called clutch hits? And try not live up to your name, just an honest answer.
But over his career, it evens out. And Jeter will improbably garnered a reputation to being clutch! Even though it doesn’t exist.
“see, under pressure you are choking like a dog.”
I don’t think you believe that.”
rich in nj-
i take it back because my jack russell buddy sitting here just gave me a dirty look.
so to all dogs out there, i apologize.
i do think jerkface lost his composure and got pissy because he’s taking a position that clutch doesn’t exist( which i’m defining as cano hitting his normal numbers or better under pressure) and it’s a weak position when kevin long is clearly trying to get cano to hit his normal numbers under pressure.
nick says it’s a weak gotcha.
i thnk it’s a big gotcha.
“when kevin long is clearly trying to get cano to hit his normal numbers under pressure”
So Long is teaching clutch?
i do think jerkface lost his composure and got pissy because he’s taking a position that clutch doesn’t exist( which i’m defining as cano hitting his normal numbers or better under pressure) and it’s a weak position when kevin long is clearly trying to get cano to hit his normal numbers under pressure.
–
Your definition of clutch is wrong.
Patrick, My point is that he ( McCovey ) failed number wise in that situation….Stats are a two way street…They can be used to prove and disprove a point…….Mickey Mantle hit 18 World Series home runs on the biggest stage in baseball, he also whiffed a ton as well….It goes both ways, and yes Mantle was a beast when the lights were on
I swore I saw Arod get some “clutch” hits last postseason. At least I thought they were clutch at the time.
I also remember him being labeled “un-clutch” for a long time.
Kevin Long is simply trying to get Cano to hit better with RISP.
It’s the last piece of Cano’s puzzle.
‘Its all subjective crap.”
jerkface-
are you good under pressure?
you can keep that to yourself, but how would you get good at performing under pressure if you didn’t think being good under pressure existed ?
why would and you practiced getting better if you thought it didn’t exist and everything is just random?
“Why are they called clutch hits?”
Because they are hits that occur in high-pressure (or clutch) situations.
We are arguing if there is such a thing as a clutch hitter, someone that is always better in a clutch situation.
You are arguing that if a player gets a clutch hit, he is therefore a clutch player.
Does that mean if a player hits a homerun he’s a great homerun hitter?
Jerkface
Why are they called clutch hits? And try not live up to your name, just an honest answer.
–
In sports, clutch refers to a competent and/or superior play during high pressure situations. Most often it is a successful action taken under high pressure during a game usually at the end that may result in a significant change on the game’s result.
Clutch has a secondary, subliminal meaning which is “to grab” or “to grip” and therefore it can also be referred to as a time in the game when every move is critical; when a strategy taken succeeds or fails.
Early use of the term occurred in baseball. David Grabiner, a Mathematics professor did the seminal work in between late 1991 and early 1992, defining clutch as performance in the late innings of close games.[1]. His article states that the correlation between past and current clutch performance is .01, with a standard deviation of .07. In other words, there isn’t a significant ability in clutch hitting; if there were, the same players would be good clutch hitters every year.
In addition, a study by Ron Johnson[2],covered a 15-year period and concluded that just two players, Paul Molitor and Tony Fernandez met the statistical criteria to be considered clutch hitters. (Johnson didn’t argue that the two had this trait, just that of the players in the study, they were the only two whose performance with runners in scoring positions showed a statistically significant improvement.)
The term has since been used on many occasions in other sports including but not limited to basketball and football.
–
Plays can be clutch, players can be clutch ‘in the moment’, a player cannot hold the trait of clutch.
So it’s okay to say that a player like Jeter or Manny have had their share of clutch hits?
And Kobe and Carmelo have had their share of clutch shots?
randy,
You do not have much of an argument until you can find a representative class of players that at the end of their career have RISP numbers or high leverage numbers that are substantially/significantly depart from their career numbers.
The “clutch player does not exists” side of the debate has that sample for our side.
That is what really the gotcha is here…
“Plays can be clutch, players can be clutch ‘in the moment’, a player cannot hold the trait of clutch.”
There it is.
“Your definition of clutch is wrong.”
my definition again is simply that clutch is the ability to perform as well in a pressure situation as in a non pressure situation.
“So it’s okay to say that a player like Jeter or Manny have had their share of clutch hits?”
Yes. Or that Pettitte has pitched his share of clutch games.
Pat M,
Ok I guess you’re saying that although McCovey did all he could in that at-bat, the stats say he failed. However, think of it like this. Lets say he gets 1000 tries in that same exact situation. Wouldn’t you think he’d hit at around his career averages given that number of tries? It’s not like the ’62 world series was the only time he hit a hard liner that was caught.
and about Mickey Mantle…
regular season:
.298/.421/.557 .977 OPS
playoffs:
.257/.374/.535 .908 OPS
Just saying
are you good under pressure?
you can keep that to yourself, but how would you get good at performing under pressure if you didn’t think being good under pressure existed ?
why would and you practiced getting better if you thought it didn’t exist and everything is just random?
–
Yes, I played competitive in sport and other hobbies, only amateurs suffer under pressure because they lack experience. Baseballers are experts at baseball, most have spent more than 10,000 hours in their life playing baseball. Their body is trained to react. Just like I was able to react on skill and instinct in certain situations. If I failed or succeeded usually counted on many factors, the least of which is some intangible which I possessed.
my definition again is simply that clutch is the ability to perform as well in a pressure situation as in a non pressure situation.
–
This is not the definition of clutch in american sports.
“my definition again is simply that clutch is the ability to perform as well in a pressure situation as in a non pressure situation. ”
Which is not the traditional definition of a clutch player. Which I’ve said at least 5 times in this thread.
Interesting discussion but I’m quickly realizing you aren’t going to actually read our posts. Goodnight all
As long as some players are worse in clutch situations, I think it follows that some must be better. Suppose a batter hits just as well in clutch situations. Some of the pitchers he faces will do worse in clutch situations. He will do particularly well against these pitchers in clutch situations. So, his average “clutch” batting results should be better than his overall average.
My memory is that Willie Mays was terrific in clutch situations, although I’ve never checked the stats.
“You do not have much of an argument until you can find a representative class of players that at the end of their career have RISP numbers or high leverage numbers that are substantially/significantly depart from their career numbers.”
let’s go yankees-
take a look at mariano rivera’s postseason mumbers.
they are the ultimate proof of a player doing as well under pressure as he does with no pressure.
as a matter of fact he exceeds by far his regular season numbers.
so don’t tell me there is no player who doesn’t have a large sample of clutch.
mariano rivera is the man.
the ultimate clutch man .
representative class of players.
“you’re not really trying to see the simple point i’m making that kevin long is indeed trying to improve cano’s ability to hit in pressure situations ( men in scoring position).”
I do get your point, but you set it up as some big gotcha and it isn’t.
It’s like you started at your big Perry Mason conclusion (or Matlock, if you prefer) that the hitting coach (Long)wouldn’t try to coach a hitter (Cano) to improve an area of weakness last season if there was any validity to advanced statistical analysis and then you worked backwards.
If you go back and read each one of your comments in this thread in order with each of Jerface’s replies, I think you’ll see you missed/ignored a lot because he didn’t play along with the ‘gotcha trail’.
And m, I don’t object to you bringin’ the mild snark, but I bet if you read each post in this thread you might bring it a little differently.
On that note, I’m supposed to be watching L :shock” OST, see ya!
rivera in 88 post season appearances has a 0.74 era
regular season- 2.25
0.74 era
that’s clutch
DOH!!!
randy is insufferable. wow.
Stuckey
very good thanks.
Plays can be clutch, players can be clutch ‘in the moment’, a player cannot hold the trait of clutch.
If I understand you– Clutch exists, but players can not hold the trait of clutch.
Does that mean compared to other players in clutch situations all players performed equally? Or do some players perform better in the Clutch than others?
Could those players than not be called “clutch” because they performed better than the norm, even if thier numbers do no equal some “career” number that you choose?
Goodnight all. I will read your response in the morning.
Mays: .302 .384 .557 .941
World Series: .239 .308 .282 .589
Oh no, say hey it ain’t so
“I do get your point, but you set it up as some big gotcha and it isn’t.”
nick in sf-
it’s not a big gotcha to you because you don’t understand what a big deal clutch is in the sabermetric world.
it’s a gotcha because a sabermetrically inclined person looks stupid saying there is nothing you can do to improve a hitter’s ability to hit in the clutch.
especially when that person is a yankee fan and kevin long is trying to teach cano how to hit better with men in scoring position.
long himself wouldn’t use the word clutch though because it’s a twitchy thing to talk about. he would just say he’s trying to improve cano’s ability to hit with men on base.
Lee Travino explained clutch as when you’re looking at a 15 footer for 50.00 when you only have 10.00……..I’m always hearing that some players just can’t handle the NY Stage, are they lacking clutchness or inner fortitude ??? I’m with Randy, the abilty to play to one’s expectations when the pressure or the stakes are at their greatest…..We can sit back and be glib about this, unless you have experienced the situation, then you might view it differently…..Just saying, you have feel it this to understand it
Sorry that was meant to be to Jerkface.
I cannot help but think that all this analysis and over analysis just sucks the fun out of the game. I read these posts about this stat and that stat and although I enjoy the numbers, baseball goes beyond numbers. It is played by a team and that team either works well together or does not. All the statistical analysis in the world will not get a team to play better. It just seems to suck the life out of the game. When Willie Mays made that incredible catch or Mickey hit with blood dripping down his leg or Jeter flipped the ball to Jorge, no numbers no analysis or modeling could predict the beauty of those plays. I just don’t understand how you can talk so much about it. Baseball is beyond talking about stats. It is about players excelling when least expected at times. To me that is clutch.
Saying a player is clutch and saying the player makes clutch plays is just a matter of semantics.
Despite the fact that some vehemently argue that it does not exist, you will find that the concept is carelessly tossed around.
Of course, the question in the player/gm surveys isn’t “Who’s the most clutch?” It’s “Who would you want to take the last shot?”
So when Terry Francona says that Derek Jeter is the last person he wants to see at the plate in a crucial situation, it’s because he just doesn’t like the guy.
“randy is insufferable. wow.”
keithr-
so compete.
what’s your position on cano and clutch?
Pat,
No one here is denying that players can be clutch. This is exactly what Jerkface said, “Plays can be clutch, players can be clutch ‘in the moment’, a player cannot hold the trait of clutch.” I do not think anyone here denies that.
But, if you give Robinson Cano 1,000 at bats with the lights on him, Game 7 of the World Series, winning run on 2nd, at the end of that 1,000 at bats his numbers will mirror his career norms.
If I understand you– Clutch exists, but players can not hold the trait of clutch.
Does that mean compared to other players in clutch situations all players performed equally? Or do some players perform better in the Clutch than others?
Could those players than not be called “clutch” because they performed better than the norm, even if thier numbers do no equal some “career” number that you choose?
–
Any ‘game winning’ or ‘game changing’ anything can be clutch. Until you can prove that a certain set of players will always perform well in ‘clutch’ situations, I would never say players are ‘clutch’. Any player has the capability to be involved in a clutch play. John Flaherty once got a game winning hit. It could be defined as clutch.
Marco Scutaro hit a 3 run bomb off Mariano Rivera to win a game, was that a clutch HR? For an Oakland Fan I’d say it was. However in his career he is abymsal vs the yankees and vs mariano rivera especially. He got a clutch hit to win the game, it does not make him a clutch player.
The point here is that most players, over their careers, will have their numbers in every situation merge towards their career numbers. If you want to suggest that players who are better in ‘clutch’ situations, regardless of their career numbers, are clutch, go ahead. However, I would merely say these players are good / great players, because that definition is NOT the definition of clutch as widely accepted by everyone, except some people in this thread trying to make a point.
Once again, if clutch exists, Jeter would not have a wildly fluctuating ability to hit with RISP and in the post season. As he is widely considered clutch by all.
By virtue of playing for the yankees, Jeter is exposed to more situations that are deemed clutch (postseason, important games because they are always in a pennant race), and despite his overall numbers suggesting otherwise, his various successes are used to paint an overall picture of Jeter as clutch.
For every game winning single or rally started, I will give you 2 rallies killed, because that is baseball. You fail 2 out of 3 times its a good night.
Career of Albert Pujols
Bases Empty .331 .407 .627 1.034
RISP .345 .483 .673 1.157
Career of Joe Mauer
Bases Empy .312 .379 .485 .864
RISP .347 .464 .515 .979
“So when Terry Francona says that Derek Jeter is the last person he wants to see at the plate in a crucial situation, it’s because he just doesn’t like the guy.”
good point m.
i would say it’s because jeter is a really good hitter and he will keep his composure and do what he normally does, which is to be good.
Clutch isn’t about batting averages. It’s about coming through in the big moment.
Doesn’t mean because they fail some of the time, they’re not clutch.
You get the reputation for being clutch, there’s no number to measure it (though I suspect that John Hollinger’s got a Beta version on his computer).
Hello Mr. Pat. Good to see you.
And Randy I believe in clutch. My cousin Charlie who I nicknamed clutch when I was growing up always seemed to get that big hit when the game was tied or the team was losing. Charlie getting to bat in the 9th was seemingly a sure thing. It is like having a go-to guy. Jordan on the Bulls or Kobe on the Lakers – these guys live to get that winning shot in the hoop. I don’t think it is any different in baseball you want Jeter with his bat in his hand to get up there. Players live for that moment. To me that is truly clutch.
You know who I want up in a crucial situation? My teams best player. Not melky cabrera.
M- I like your point.
“But, if you give Robinson Cano 1,000 at bats with the lights on him, Game 7 of the World Series, winning run on 2nd, at the end of that 1,000 at bats his numbers will mirror his career norms.”
let’s go yankees-
then why is kevin long trying to speed up the process?
why doesn’t he just mind his business and leave cano alone?
There have been numerous attempts to find players that at the end of their career where significantly “different” in “clutch situations.” That group of players has not been found.
If you randy or Pat can find that representative class then that is great because you will have discovered something that has eluded a number of very intelligent people.
it’s not a big gotcha to you because you don’t understand what a big deal clutch is in the sabermetric world.
it’s a gotcha because a sabermetrically inclined person looks stupid saying there is nothing you can do to improve a hitter’s ability to hit in the clutch.
especially when that person is a yankee fan and kevin long is trying to teach cano how to hit better with men in scoring position.
long himself wouldn’t use the word clutch though because it’s a twitchy thing to talk about. he would just say he’s trying to improve cano’s ability to hit with men on base.
–
You cannot teach a player to be clutch. You can teach a player to improve situational hitting, or correct a flaw that manifests in situations (such as a pitcher losing mechanics from the stretch) That is not clutch, or else batters would all train to hit better with RISP.
let’s go yankees-
then why is kevin long trying to speed up the process?
why doesn’t he just mind his business and leave cano alone?
————————–
This question has been answered countless times in this very thread by numerous posters. I am not going to waste my time reiterating it.
“Clutch” defines an event, not a person.
why doesn’t he just mind his business and leave cano alone?
–
Because he used data analysis to determine a flaw in Cano’s approach which he is moving to correct. That is part of what draws players back to the mean, I already went over this.
randy l,
I wasn’t trying to make your point!
You can’t hijack my points for your own perverse argument.
“You cannot teach a player to be clutch. You can teach a player to improve situational hitting, or correct a flaw that manifests in situations (such as a pitcher losing mechanics from the stretch) That is not clutch, or else batters would all train to hit better with RISP.”
———————————–
I totally disagree, when a player and really anyone even a salesperson, feels comfortable at what they are doing and have the technology of their game, they will rise to the occasion, necessity level kicks in and they do excel and are clutch when their team needs them.
nd Randy I believe in clutch. My cousin Charlie who I nicknamed clutch when I was growing up always seemed to get that big hit when the game was tied or the team was losing. Charlie getting to bat in the 9th was seemingly a sure thing. It is like having a go-to guy. Jordan on the Bulls or Kobe on the Lakers – these guys live to get that winning shot in the hoop. I don’t think it is any different in baseball you want Jeter with his bat in his hand to get up there. Players live for that moment. To me that is truly clutch.
–
The NBA is getting its own brand of sabermetrics, which I am actually a little familiar with. They study everything that a basketball player does with the ball, when he doesnt have the ball, and when he gets the ball. Some players are better off a dribble, some directly from a pass, some while moving, some while standing still.
There are efficiency stats which say that Kobe Bryant is better going to his right than going to his left at the basket, so defenders try to move him in a specific way to force bad shots. Players will score in the NBA, its all about ruining efficiency.
To the point, analysis was done and showed that Kobe Bryant had the most “final shots” of any active player, ie a shot which lands with no time on the clock. He had the most number of game winning shots.
His shooting percentage was also below his career shooting percentage. And thus he had the most misses.
You say Kobe is clutch because he is a beast and you want him to have the ball with the game on the line.
The REALITY is that he has MISSED far more shots than normal to lose a game.
There was an article about this + the advanced stats,as Houston gave the raw data to Shane Battier as he is one of the few basketballers smart enough to understand it and willing to work on his defense.
“kind of an educated guess based on catching pitchers who’ve won a few thousand mlb games.”
Translation: I have no way to explain how I arrived at the arbitrary figure “10%” so I’ll try to exploit by “experience” in order to play up my “credibility” to mask the fact I have no way to explain how I arrived at the arbitrary figure 10%.
And I’m going to do us all a favor by not even asking you to explain how cstching bullpen sessions led you to conclude the exact proper ratio that significantly alters the HITTERS mental approach.
1,000 ab’s in the spotlight, I’m certain if that could happen the numbers will balance out…It’s when you only play a handful of Big Importatnt games when the game is on the line only then can we really get into this arena of raising one’s game to that level….Actually, Bronx Born had the most accurate post of the night…..These nights of late are just draining….
I totally disagree, when a player and really anyone even a salesperson, feels comfortable at what they are doing and have the technology of their game, they will rise to the occasion, necessity level kicks in and they do excel and are clutch when their team needs them.
-
Wel, gee, how am I to argue with this iron clad logic? You’re talking about the difference of familiarity, experience, the art of being an ‘expert’.
It has nothing to do with clutch, and I’d love for you to prove your statement in any real way.
Jeez Jerkface, next thing you will tell me there is no Santa Claus. What fun is all this stat stuff if you cannot enjoy the play in front of you without analyzing the cr*p out of it.
I know Kobe misses a bunch of shots but it is the ones he gets in that count.
pat,
I see what you’re trying to say. But legions of people and analysts will tell you that Kobe Bryant is clutch. Michael Jordan was clutch.
Yes, they are/were far superior to their competition, but it’s not their talent. There’s a ton of talented players who can’t rise to the occasion.
I get that they’re better and more likely to come through because they’re better. But seeing is believing.
So maybe it’s different in baseball because the batter/pitcher is not in total control of the situation. You have the antagonist (batter or pitcher), the ump, people throwing stuff onto the field stoppin play, any number of things.
But I think there’s room enough in the world for clutch players and clutch situations. People gain the reputation for being clutch for doing it on the big stage. The bigger the moment, the more their reputations grow exponentially. It might be flawed, can’t be measured, perceptions might not be reality, but it is what it is.
m
“Saying a player is clutch and saying the player makes clutch plays is just a matter of semantics.”
No, it’s not. If a player is clutch, he should be expected to come through more often in clutch situations than non-clutch situations to a statistically significant degree. Otherwise, he is just producing at his normal level.
Making clutch plays implies that the characteristic is much more transitory.
So the difference is real, not semantic.
“Lee Travino explained clutch as when you’re looking at a 15 footer for 50.00 when you only have 10.00…”
pat m-
that’s a perfect example of what i’m saying.
i’ve always loved that trevino quote.
i know that nick in sf thinks this is a small issue and i understand those that think i’m making too big deal of it , but the idea of clutch is a really important issue.
it is so fundamental to the sabermetric way of thinking.
it is an important issue.
i believe when an an average fan listens to what the sabermetric community thinks of clutch they won’t buy it.
And yet Shane Battier can’t stop Kobe. There it is.
Jerkface, I do not know what you do in life or how successful you are at it. I do know what I have done and there have been times I have been extremely clutch and times I blew. I have been most fortunate in being more successful than not. You don’t have to accept my “ironclad” logic. It is the art of being a professional at what you do. And pro’s come up clutch. Just the way the game is played.
Rich,
K. I understand now. I will continue to call Kobe clutch. Jeter clutch. And depending on how this postseason goes, Alex.
Bronx Born,
Thanks for the nod.
Bronx Born
February 24th, 2010 at 12:35 am
Jeez Jerkface, next thing you will tell me there is no Santa Claus. What fun is all this stat stuff if you cannot enjoy the play in front of you without analyzing the cr*p out of it.
———————–
This is a quote from Jerkface: “And when I am watching a game, in the moment, I will yell things like ‘Clutch!’”
Watching the game for pleasure is very different than talking about the reality of the situation in the offseason.
Randy, I agree it is a most important point. Rising to the occasion – necessity level kicking in – the adrenaline flowing- that is what it is all about. You cannot get that in the stat book..
“No, it’s not. If a player is clutch, he should be expected to come through more often in clutch situations than non-clutch situations to a statistically significant degree. Otherwise, he is just producing at his normal level.”
rich in nj-
i think we ned to take a step back.
pat m and i both agree doing what you normally do when you are not under pressure when under pressure is being clutch.
you don’t have to do better.you just have to be yourself.
cano is not doing as well under pressure as he does when he’s not under pressure.
that’s why long is coaching him.
h’es not trying to make cano better than his normal game.
he’s just trying to get his normal game.
Argh. meant to put an emoticon after Alex. don’t get all excited, folks. It was a joke.
“i know that nick in sf thinks this is a small issue and i understand those that think i’m making too big deal of it , but the idea of clutch is a really important issue.
it is so fundamental to the sabermetric way of thinking.”
—————————–
Do you know why it is “fundamental” to the sabermetric community?
Because many sabermetric people have attempted to discover “clutch” and have failed time after time.
If it was there it would have been discovered by now. The have been trying to find it for 30 years.
Bronx Born
February 24th, 2010 at 12:38 am
Jerkface, I do not know what you do in life or how successful you are at it. I do know what I have done and there have been times I have been extremely clutch and times I blew. I have been most fortunate in being more successful than not. You don’t have to accept my “ironclad” logic. It is the art of being a professional at what you do. And pro’s come up clutch. Just the way the game is played.
—————————
So what you are saying is that there are clutch moments like everyone has agreed to?
What happened to the “clutch” trait you have when you blew it?
How does coming through more times than not differ from your regular life?
Comparing Cano to Pujols or Mauer is like comparing John Starks to Michael Jordan.
And I liked John Starks.
bronx born-
good point about handling adrenaline .
it’s something that you can channel if you learn to control it.
Perhaps they are looking in the wrong places for clutch and that is why they have not found it in 30 years. Clutch is about heart and soul not numbers. Clutch is living in that moment in the zone and instincts and intelligence and strength all fold into one and you get the hit, or write the words, or say the right thing. Clutch is all about being yourself under the microscope or pressure and not giving in. Clutch is strength and fortitude and persistence. It is not just talent. It is the ability to use that talent wherever and whenever you want. To me that is clutch.
And yet Shane Battier can’t stop Kobe. There it is.
–
He doesn’t have to stop Kobe Bryant, you are never going to ‘stop’ an NBA super star. The object is to lower his efficiency.
Guess what the difference between Kobe banking 30 points on 15/20 shooting and Kobe banking 30 points on 15/30 shooting.
10 Extra shots that the opposing team missed giving your team the opportunity for a rebound and score. As well as taking away 10 shots from Kobe’s teammates, who may or may not be talented.
Statistics owns, and using them to your advantage owns harder.
“Because many sabermetric people have attempted to discover “clutch” and have failed time after time.
If it was there it would have been discovered by now. The have been trying to find it for 30 years.”
let’s go yankees.
you’re not going to find it at your keyboard.
Handling adrenaline is an art all by itself. There are times when I am about to go on stage when I seem to be so nervous, but it is not nerves, it is the energy kicking in like crazy and you either can handle that moment or you fall apart. The adrenaline is keening up and boy your moment is about to happen and suddenly the calm happens – the energy is there it is hot and strong but you have it under control and can channel it just how you want. The audience is yours and you know it. I imagine it is the same for a ball player…
Bronx Born
February 24th, 2010 at 12:48 am
Perhaps they are looking in the wrong places for clutch and that is why they have not found it in 30 years. Clutch is about heart and soul not numbers. Clutch is living in that moment in the zone and instincts and intelligence and strength all fold into one and you get the hit, or write the words, or say the right thing. Clutch is all about being yourself under the microscope or pressure and not giving in. Clutch is strength and fortitude and persistence. It is not just talent. It is the ability to use that talent wherever and whenever you want. To me that is clutch.
——————————
If it exists it would show up in the numbers.
It would show up somewhere in RISP, 2 outs, 9th inning, High Leverage, Postseason, World Series, etc.
Baseball tracks virtually every situation. If clutch does not fall into any of those situations then IDK how you can say it exists.
It is not just talent. It is the ability to use that talent wherever and whenever you want. To me that is clutch.
—————————-
So why is Derek Jeter, the definition of clutch, not able to do this every year?
No, the only thing that owns is winning the game.
Not to belittle sabermetrics, but once upon a time baseball was played before its inception.
So, people can argue this and that, but the fundamentals of baseball go back much further than sabermetrics.
I would say that luck has more to do with clutch than anything that Bronx Born posted.
You make your own luck Rich.
No, the only thing that owns is winning the game.
Not to belittle sabermetrics, but once upon a time baseball was played before its inception.
So, people can argue this and that, but the fundamentals of baseball go back much further than sabermetrics.
–
You’ve gone down a dark road with that statement. A lot of things existed for longer than humans have understood, but a deeper understanding benefits everyone.
You, or Randy, or Bronx Guy do not need to partake for your enjoyment, but then you should be wary of getting into arguments.
Its like someone arguing about the discovery of gravity and all the rules and theories which evolved from it. “Well falling on my ass existed long before gravity”
So, are people responsible for their misfortune too? If so, to what degree?
I am calling it a night. Pat, Randy, M, I wish you well and stay clutch. As for those who do not believe in clutch, I do wish you well and stay warm or cool depending on your location.
You make your own luck Rich.
–
Tell that to anyone who plays the lottery every day of their life and some schmuck buys 1 ticket and wins.
“pat m and i both agree doing what you normally do when you are not under pressure when under pressure is being clutch.
you don’t have to do better.you just have to be yourself.”
Then you’re defining clutch as being the lack of an extraordinary circumstance rather than the event of one.
Why is this worthy of being modified as “clutch” as opposed to “normal”?
Now you’ve entered the self-contradictory realm of needing “normal” to equal “extraordinary”.
The bottom line is you have to identify a large enough group of players who don’t perform “as normal” to make the ones who do noteworthy.
Can you do that?
This filter is killing me.
You guys have turned basebal into a game viewed from the town of Stepford, just like the wives in the money….Very sterile & bland…..I’ve never witnessed a group trying so desperatley to defend their ideology like you gents…..Well maybe I have but tha subject it taboo here
Why on earth would you play the lottery every day? That would be my first question.
If a Kobe hit a buzzer shot on Tuesday for a win but missed a 3 at the buzzer on Wednesday and the team lost, did the person change or just the resulte?
In team sports, there are also outside variables that impact “clutch”. Hitting a solo HR in the 9th inning down by 2 is less clutch than if 2 guys got on before you when you hit the HR? That would be saying a clutch person not only controls their outcome but the outcomes of others.
Clutch results exist. Clutch players are a perception of defined events.
I don’t think Long is trying to teach Cano how to be clutch. He’s trying to teach hime to be selectively aggressive.
As far as hitting with runners in scoring position, it’s no different than what people are asking for Rodriguez. Another big bat behind him for protection. A big bat behind him will increase Cano’s “clutchness”.
You guys have turned basebal into a game viewed from the town of Stepford, just like the wives in the money….Very sterile & bland…..I’ve never witnessed a group trying so desperatley to defend their ideology like you gents…..Well maybe I have but tha subject it taboo here
–
No more than any ‘old school’ baseballer has tried to defend their antiquated view on the game and their desire to keep baseball elevated at a level where only those that have ever really played or been around baseballers can know the truth of things.
Which is as big a farce.
Why on earth would you play the lottery every day? That would be my first question.
–
Trying to make my own luck!
“Translation: I have no way to explain how I arrived at the arbitrary figure “10%” so I’ll try to exploit by “experience” in order to play up my “credibility” to mask the fact I have no way to explain how I arrived at the arbitrary figure 10%.”
stuckey-
you asked me . i told you.
i’ve spent a lot of time working with pro pitchers. i’ve been roommates with rick petersen , ross grimsley ,and neil allen. i’ve worked under tony cloninger for two years. i listened a lot.
ten percent if he can throw a good change sounds about right.
i base what i know about baseball on experience and not on number crunching.
that’s how i know.
if you don’t want to hear what i did to learn something don’t ask ?
If you aren’t basing anything on numbers, why even boil anything down to a percent? Seems awfully arbitrary. Why not just say “If you throw a good change up, he’ll be swingin like his bat twer made o swiss cheese on account of the holes hes got in there!”
Deep dark road? Like I said, not trying to belittle anyone or any discipline. But did sabermetrics reinvent the wheel? It’s the same game they’re playing on the field.
Throw pitch, put ball in play. Rinse, repeat. Who scored more runs at the end of the game? Who won more games in the series? Who was the last team standing?
Of course, there’s all kinds of benefits to sabermetrics, advanced statistical analysis, etc. I won’t deny that. I acknowledge that baseball teams use them to build teams, thus (hopefully) increasing your chances of winning. It’s useful, and like I said. I don’t indulge because I choose not to. I can enjoy the game knowing bits and pieces and leave the heavy stuff to the experts. But that doesn’t make me a simpleton or a flat-earther. Jeezus Christ.
“I don’t think Long is trying to teach Cano how to be clutch. He’s trying to teach hime to be selectively aggressive.”
gb7-
why would cano be selectively aggressive with no problem when no one is in scoring position?
why is he having the problem when guys are in scoring position ?
pat,
Kobe is clutch because his postseason resume is filled with clutch moments.
He reinforced that reputation with a clutch 3 earlier in the season (over Dwayne Wade?) and tonight to win the game.
Please don’t tell me you were looking into your crystal ball because they travel to the Big D tomorrow night.
So, every once in a while, usually around mvp season you’ll hear analysts talk about who’s more clutch? Kobe or LeBron. Then some guy will say Carmelo because statistically at the buzzer he’s been better than the other two. But at the end of the day, at the end of the road who will be remembered?
So, I’m not saying you’re wrong. But lots of sports talking heads talk about clutch players. They don’t talk about clutch plays.
Deep dark road? Like I said, not trying to belittle anyone or any discipline. But did sabermetrics reinvent the wheel? It’s the same game they’re playing on the field.
Throw pitch, put ball in play. Rinse, repeat. Who scored more runs at the end of the game? Who won more games in the series? Who was the last team standing?
Of course, there’s all kinds of benefits to sabermetrics, advanced statistical analysis, etc. I won’t deny that. I acknowledge that baseball teams use them to build teams, thus (hopefully) increasing your chances of winning. It’s useful, and like I said. I don’t indulge because I choose not to. I can enjoy the game knowing bits and pieces and leave the heavy stuff to the experts. But that doesn’t make me a simpleton or a flat-earther. Jeezus Christ
–
Sure the rules of baseball have always been about the same, except for integration, the manufacture of baseballs, gloves, and bats, the height of the mound, the designated hitter, the increase in athletic performance of humans over the years, the invention of pitches. In the end the point is to WIN the game, and win more of them than anyone else (arguably twice, once in the regular season then again when the playoffs start).
Sabermetrics, or statistical analysis of baseball is for front offices, fans, agents, and players to better understand the results of the game so as to better analyze who the good players are, and how a team should try to build a good club.
Nobody is reinventing the wheel, but we’re certainly getting a better look at it. We might even understand the wheel better than someone who just enjoys watching it spin.
And yes, it is kind of like a simpleton to burst into this argument and go “GOSH THE GAME EXISTED WHY DO WE EVEN NEED SABERMETRICS?!”
That is the dark road you went down, dismissing it out right due to its relative newness in comparison to the game itself, which is the same as anything which looked deeper into any other subject.
Jerkface, is this really about feeling inferior or inadaquent ???? I watched that vedeo that was suggested earlier, and all the new wave GM’s insisted that in the end, it’s their scouts that carry the most weight…Eyeball observation still reigns…..Metrics are supportive, isn’t that what Randy, GB, SJ and many others have been saying all the long…..It has it’s place, and it importance, just not to the degree that you’re pontificating…..Poor Jerry West just lost his half century monikor ” Mr. Clutch “…Sorry Zeke
“Now you’ve entered the self-contradictory realm of needing “normal” to equal “extraordinary”.”
stuckey-
i again define being clutch as being able to play your normal game when you are under pressure.
most people can not perform normally under pressure.
it is a learned skill and not an innate character trait.
by learning to relax your body, control your breathing, and learning to focus on what you can control, anyone can improve their ability to handle pressure better.
“you asked me . i told you.”
You certainly did…
“ten percent if he can throw a good change sounds about right.”
What’s wrong with “sound” of 5%? Or 7% Or 13% Enlighten me via your experience the shortcomings in the sounds of those?
“i base what i know about baseball on experience and not on number crunching.”
And this is one of those times when you don’t even understand your own hypocrisy.
You’re making the case that “10%” very specifically is some sort of magic number, where are 5% is too little and 15% is too much.
THIS, is in fact, number crunching, just not based on anything but an out-and-out guess on your part.
“if you don’t want to hear what i did to learn something don’t ask ?”
Again, you fail to understand the question. I’m asking WHAT you learned? Not what you did to learn it.
What did you learn that makes 10% the magic number?
If you can and are willing to answer how you learned it, why can’t you share what it is you actually learned?
So, I’m not saying you’re wrong. But lots of sports talking heads talk about clutch players. They don’t talk about clutch plays.
—
Why does that make them right? Conventional sports writing is about themes, you need heroes and underdogs and guys who are ‘clutch’ so you can write your thousandth article on why Kobe is more clutch than Lebron.
That doesn’t make it true. If the evidence points to Carmelo being better in the final seconds than Kobe or Lebron, why would you not pick him over Kobe/Lebron? Shoot plenty of people in the world in prominent positions talk about stupid stuff, doesn’t make em right.
“most people can not perform normally under pressure.
it is a learned skill and not an innate character trait.
by learning to relax your body, control your breathing, and learning to focus on what you can control, anyone can improve their ability to handle pressure better.”
Understood.
Now in order to prove “most” baseball players can not “perform normally under pressure”, you must IDENTITY evidence that corroborates that most baseball players in fact do not perform normally under pressure.
CAN you do that?
randy l.
February 24th, 2010 at 1:12 am
“I don’t think Long is trying to teach Cano how to be clutch. He’s trying to teach hime to be selectively aggressive.”
gb7-
why would cano be selectively aggressive with no problem when no one is in scoring position?
why is he having the problem when guys are in scoring position ?
————————————————————
The pitcher usually tries attacking the batter with nobody on base or just one runner on. Cano hits just as well leading off an inning as with 2 outs. He’s had to bad years with RISP, 2 very good and one where hit was within 5 points of his season’s average. He’s had a great season hitting in the day time but not hit at night and the next year, it was reversed. I can give you a HOFer that had the same sort of numbers at the same age in his first 5 seasons. Nothing follows any set pattern.
I still say that putting a big bat behind him changes his “clutchness”. He’s spent 5 years with guys like Cabrera, Gardner, Swisher, Cervelli, Molina and worse as his protection. You don’t think that he knows it’s going to be up to him to plate those runs? He gets jumpy and hits one of the first 3 pitches. Put him in the middle and that should change. I’d bat Posada in front of him, though, to allow Rodriguez a chance to run.
erkface, is this really about feeling inferior or inadaquent ???? I watched that vedeo that was suggested earlier, and all the new wave GM’s insisted that in the end, it’s their scouts that carry the most weight…Eyeball observation still reigns…..Metrics are supportive, isn’t that what Randy, GB, SJ and many others have been saying all the long…..It has it’s place, and it importance, just not to the degree that you’re pontificating…..Poor Jerry West just lost his half century monikor ” Mr. Clutch “…Sorry Zeke
–
No, I do not feel inferior to anyone on this board, but for anyone complaining about sabermetric fans saying X, I can point to ‘old schoolers’ saying Y. It cuts both ways. And who cares if you watched that video? I did too. Dayton Moore is a moron who has actively hurt the royals in every facet. Theo Epstein uses scouts in the minors up until AA then uses statistical analysis. I think any good sabermetrician can agree that scouting is an important part of any sport, but its foolish to say “all the new wave GMs said scouting rules!!”. They did not get into great detail of how they do things. And not everyone in that video is new wave, nor is it all GMs. For all you know they use a database of stats and pick players that fall into X criteria and send their scouts at those players to make a decision. Which is perfectly fine with me.
And sorry but I am not going to agree with you that Randy, SJ44, and GB have placed stats at any level of importance that would be appreciated by intelligent people.
None of you can make an argument hold up about clutch. You cannot even agree on the definition. Anecdotal evidence will always get shut down by hard fact, and most old schoolers prefer to just fall back on experience and mysticisms like “Well maybe one day you’ll understand like *I* do”
Great L
ST tonight. Still at it? Awesome.
“you’re not going to find it at your keyboard.”
Reminds me of Bob Dylan’s phenomenal “Last Thoughts on Woody Guthrie”, which you can hear here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3U1I-ELJ6g
Remember when Brett Gardner got that wicked awesome hit against Papelbon? That was teh clutch!
“pat m and i both agree doing what you normally do when you are not under pressure when under pressure is being clutch.
you don’t have to do better.you just have to be yourself.”
Before I go to bed I just want to point out that Randy has essentially argued that if a backup catcher who hits .220 comes up with runners in scoring position in high leverage situations and bats .220, he is in fact, “clutch”, because he is performing to his normal abilities in high pressure situations.
Interesting…
No, the point is why talk down to people? Since when do sabermatricians get the last say on whether or not clutch exists?
But really, I think randy’s point of clutch being fundamental to sabermetrics is what really led to my comment about baseball [surviving] for a long time before sabermetrics (fact).
So, I was just trying to say the horse should really go in front of the cart. And sabermetrics exists because of the game.
And you were intimating that stats own. And I just countered that once upon a time, baseball (and in fact) basketball were played without sabermetrics. And in the end championships own.
I still value your right to your opinion. Not saying it’s tomfoolery or voodoo or anything like that. Just saying that it’s not the end all, be all that some fervently make it out to be.
Why? Because I trust Kobe more than I trust Carmelo. Who knows what he had in his backpack.
“So, I’m not saying you’re wrong. But lots of sports talking heads talk about clutch players. They don’t talk about clutch plays.”
You need to do better than to cite the infallability of sports talking heads.
Good night.
Long said it best the other day. “I don’t want Robbie to lose his agressiveness…just be more selective.” He hits a very large amount of balls hard. Teixeira and Rodriguez are the only ones that are as close to him as far as driving the ball hard on the team. Long also said that he knows that Cano isn’t going to walk a lot and that doesn’t bother him. He just wants him to pick better pitches to attack.
No, the point is why talk down to people? Since when do sabermatricians get the last say on whether or not clutch exists?
–
Because they can actually back up their opinion with facts. The other side has speculation and hearsay and anecdotes.
“And sorry but I am not going to agree with you that Randy, SJ44, and GB have placed stats at any level of importance that would be appreciated by intelligent people.”
jerkface-
i notice you threw that word” intelligent” in there and implied that you were one of the intelligent ones.
are you implying you have a higher IQ than us?
now that would be an interesting position to take.
Stuckey, You want to change sports into a class in statisics or math probabilities…..You want to predict or come as close to a certainity in the world of sports…Sorry to disappoint you but that’ll never be the case……You must provide evidence, what kind of crap is that ???? It’s a bloody game, played by imperfect people…..Derek Jeter was interviewed a few weeks ago by Harold Reynolds, and when asked about Derek’s ability to come up big in big games, Jeter indicated that he tries to slow the game down, extract the distractions as much as possible so he can devote as much attention to his basics…..Isn’t that what Randy is saying ???? I mean, this is coming from a Hall of Fame ballplayer, one of if not the best Shortstop ever to play….I’ll be waitng for all the reasons as to wht he isn’t
Jerk, according to you, the only intelligent people in the world are those that agree with you.
ooops. seems like I had a Faux Pas. Or, just a typo.
My point earlier about arguing about gravity, and in these arguments, is that people who hate stats tend to just argue about whatever they believe is right and offer nothing intellectually sound to back it up.
I saw Kei Igawa pitch once, and he owned the red sox, so he must be awesome?! Why isn’t he our #1 pitcher?!
Well if you were to say its becausehe can’t get anyone out. I’ll say “BS, I saw him get out all the red sox!”
Then you say well… his ERA is like 10.
“ERA? Whatever, thats some numbers, I saw him beat the 2nd best team in the league and he barely gave up a hit. He is a beast.”
That is the feeling of arguing against someone who “doesn’t believe in stats” or WHATEVER anyones problem with sabermetrics is.
Speaking of backing up opinions with facts.
Cash has officially decided that Grandy is the CF basically because of the uncertainty of Gardner’s role on the team this year and in years to come.
He did however go on to add this little gem:
“Our defensive metrics on Brett Gardner made him one of the elite center fielders in the game. I’m not saying he’s the top but he’s close to it.
Well, the fact is that championships own!
Gotta put the real quote to put in context.
Because these words “basically because of the uncertainty of Gardner’s role on the team this year and in years to come.” weren’t in that quote.
“You must provide evidence, what kind of crap is that ????”
Any truth, even truths about unpredictable games subject to the imperfection of people, can be corroborated.
This isn’t a way of looking at something, this is a indisputable fact.
Saying “clutch” exists is a claim. YOU are arguing it’s existence is fact. Then it should be able to be corroborated.
The argument as to whether it’s worthwhile to provide proof of assumptions about the game of baseball is a fair discussion, but let’s be clear, if it’s true, it can be proven.
Jerk, according to you, the only intelligent people in the world are those that agree with you.
–
Nah, I didn’t mean to imply it that way at all. There are smart people on both sides, just like there have been smart people throughout the ages, but the areas of our knowledge are where we diverge.
My statement was meant to say that “some morons might be happy with the statement that scouts rule and stats are only for the barest of support” but that smart people are not going to be fooled by that. And its a stupid concession to make. Pat M just tried to change the argument to make it look like I was arguing for 100% stats, and that REALLY you guys are on ‘my’ side. Which isn’t true.
Stats and Scouting should work hand in hand, and one will be better than the other at evaluating certain things. And the posters on this board are like a venn diagram for how much they like one or the other.
I don’t think Randy, SJ44, Pat M, or GB7′s venn diagrams would all match up 100%, as is pretty clear by you, GB7, arguing on behalf of Robbie
“And you were intimating that stats own. And I just countered that once upon a time, baseball (and in fact) basketball were played without sabermetrics. And in the end championships own.”
m -
competition is the final arbiter of what works.
a sabermetric team tends to have a high on base percentage,not give up outs with things like sacrifice bunts, hit behind the runner, or steal much.
if a team like this goes up against the twins say, and play enough games, we’ll find out what works best.
whoever wins is the best team.
not whoever has the best stats.
wins is what matters.
Sounds more like Cashman is using his own system rather than ones that he doesn’t trust. Also sounds like he’s not going to run down one of his own players and lessen any value he has, in case he wants to trade him. what a shocker.
m,
I was summarizing since it is a 3 paragraph quote.
I think that what’s taken place is when you’re asked questions like ‘Is there a possibility of Gardner playing center?’ I’m like, well, if we feel Gardner makes us our best team with Gardner at center because we’re blessed to have two above average center fielders patrolling Yankee Stadium’s outfield out of the three man alignment. So we have [NSwisher in right, Granderson in center and Gardner, assuming he holds it down and wins it, will be in left.
But Granderson’s our center fielder. He’s an above average center fielder and that’s why we acquired him. But to be quite honest if somebody asked, ‘Hey, but is it possible Brett Gardner might be a better center fielder?’ Our defensive metrics on Brett Gardner made him one of the elite center fielders in the game. I’m not saying he’s the top but he’s close to it.
So in fairness we acknowledge that but does that mean it’s the right thing to do to move Curtis Granderson over to left? I’m not saying that but I’m also open minded to say, alright, we’ve got a new player. We’re gonna see how our team fits and we’ll make decisions accordingly as we see things playing out. But Granderson’s our center fielder.”
Nothing in that quote changes that Cashman stated their defensive metrics back up the claim that Gardner was an elite CF to use Cashman’s own words.
GB,
1. It seems from that quote UZR is right in line with whatever the Yankees are using
2. Most teams do not dramatically depart from UZR. They just tweak it to fit their needs or what they view is a better system. Across the board though, the data tends to be quite similar and the interpretation tends to be quite similar. For all we know the Yankees buy their data from the same place as fangraphs, as there are several teams who do this.
randy l,
Did you just agree with me? That really makes my night!
Jeez, the Yankees biggest problems are 1) deciding between two interchangeable pitchers for the 5th spot. 2) deciding between two interchangeable OF for LF & CF. Life is Good!
Also sounds like he’s not going to run down one of his own players and lessen any value he has, in case he wants to trade him. what a shocker.
————————–
This is the problem with anti-sab people. The facts are right in front of your face and you still deny it because of what you saw with your eyes.
Running down someone’s value and stating they are close to one of the best in the game is very different. If anyone plans on trading for him they are not just going to take his word for it. They are going to use their own scouts and metrics.
Jose Molina the last 3 years:
.229/.273./312/.585
Jose Molina the last 3 years with RISP:
.239/.295/.333/.628
That dude is CLUTCH!!
In this case, Cashman’s blowing more smoke than talking truth. If a center fielder can’t throw or catch flies hit over his head, he can be pretty good, like Gardner, but, he’s in no way, no stretch of the imagination ELITE.
Well, that sounds like what I remember. That part about putting Granderson in CF because of the uncertainty of Gardner’s role on the team this year and the future was never referenced by Cash.
“The argument as to whether it’s worthwhile to provide proof of assumptions about the game of baseball is a fair discussion, but let’s be clear, if it’s true, it can be proven.”
stuckey-
when i used to play serious two person beach volleyball, when we’d run into someone like you who likes to run his mouth, we’d say ” shut up and play”.
the problem we have on the blog is we’re not on an athletic field, so how do we compete and see who’s right ?
we can’t take two teams that represent our beliefs and compete against each other to see who will win like we could if we were competing against each other.
the best we can do is point out mlb teams that are using our respective approaches and see how well they do against each other.
i see plenty of team doing quite well thinking that clutch exists.
i don’t see any team doing well that thinks it doesn’t.
Gardner, assuming he holds it down and wins it, will be in left.
Code for we have no clue if Gardner is even going to be a starter for the full season let alone on opening day.
i don’t see any team doing well that thinks it doesn’t.
–
New york yankees
Boston Red Sox
Enough for tonight. This same BS is getting boring. I’d rather rewatch a movie that I’ve seen 20 times than rereading this stuff.
You’re not going to convert anybody to your cult, so, you may as well give up the ghost and go have your saber-jerk somewhere that appreciates your “intelligence”.
GB,
You are right. Gardner is not elite. Cashman just made that stuff up about his metrics and went on the radio and said that stuff for good times. Why did I not think of that?
i always did think molina was clutch.
he did grow up in the angels system and could put the ball in play.
i see the point you’re making that in this case clutch is relative.
molina level of performance being clutch is not as good as jeter’s level of performance being clutch.
clutch is simply being yourself or better under pressure.
Only if Randy Et Al leaves the internet to go talk about clutch at a sports bar with some yahoos.
Half the fun of posting on the internet is getting into it with the opposing faction. The opposing faction changes every day based on whats being talked about. And if Randy is going to just make up some stuff and try to pass it off as fact he is going to get called on it. It will probably escalate into a debate in which neither side will convince anyone.
I can multi-task so its not much of a waste of time for me.
randy, you’ve been duking it out through the whole thread. Was there any point in which you think Jerkface misrepresented or twisted what you were saying and then went off on some tangent based on the misrepresentation? Or employed an obvious strawman argument?
Okay, I’ll grant you Opening Day and even this season. But I will not give you “years to come”.
the new york yankees don’t believe clutch exists?
hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahhahhahahhahhahahah.
in your dreams.
clutch is simply being yourself or better under pressure.
–
In which case it has completely lost its meaning unless you can prove that a disproportionate number of players do not perform at normal or better under pressure.
(and what does a beach volleyball game have to do with a discussion about baseball theories?)
the new york yankees don’t believe clutch exists?
hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahhahhahahhahhahahah.
in your dreams.
–
Unless you have now changed your definition of clutch to be ‘performs at normal or better while on a new york team’.
Cashman stated he wasn’t evaluating damon and matsui this offseason based on any supposed ‘clutch’ world series performances.
He has consistently shown that he will work off metrics. Why would he trade for Nick Swisher? who was decidedly unclutch? Or trade away Melky Cabrera for Vazquez? Which seems like a net loss of clutchitude!
Or here, let me just answer like you
You think the Yankees, whose decisions cost them millions of dollars, believes in CLUTCH?! BWAHAHAHAHAHHA
m
February 24th, 2010 at 2:05 am
Okay, I’ll grant you Opening Day and even this season. But I will not give you “years to come”.
————————-
I admit summarizing was probably the wrong word for the years to come part. More of an inference on my part, because if they were sure Gardner could be a starting CF for at least the next few years he would be there.
If however, tomorrow you decide he is your 2009 CF you may run into a problem in 2010 if Gardner flames out 2009. Going from CF to LF would be much easier for Granderson than having to shift from LF to CF in 2010 under that scenario.
Over on RAB they also speculate about the Yankees interest in Crawford so they do not want to bump Granderson to LF and then shift him back
(and what does a beach volleyball game have to do with a discussion about baseball theories?)
–
Its a metaphor!! Those win arguments, right?
Why would the Yankees sign A-Rod to a 10 year contract if they cared so much about clutch and believe it existed?
Guy was the poster-boy for un-clutch before this season.
Why would the Yankees sign A-Rod to a 10 year contract?
touche
“i see plenty of team doing quite well thinking that clutch exists.
i don’t see any team doing well that thinks it doesn’t.”
——————–
randy,
You just crossed into GB territory with this comment.
Deny, deny, deny and then make something up.
The Yankees would sign Arod to a 10-year contract because Hank isn’t clutch?
“Only if Randy Et Al leaves the internet to go talk about clutch at a sports bar with some yahoos.”
jerkface-
see. there you go again trying to turn this debate into some play some sort of IQ challenge where you assume you’re more intelligent.
i just don’t see it that way.
i don’t think there’s any correlation between being old school and intelligence.
except maybe someone who has a lot of experience competing might not choke on an IQ test
some people are more clutch with IQ tests than others
kevin long is going to try to teach cano to hit better with men on base.
if he succeeds, cano will hit in pressure situations like he normally does in non pressure situations and this will be clutch by my definition.
if you want long to do nothing and wait for a thousand at bats to go by to see if things even out, you are going to be disappointed.
kevin long is not a sabermetrician.
Sadly, they signed him to a 10 year-contract to assure he broke Barry Bonds’ record while wearing pinstripes.
“if you want long to do nothing and wait for a thousand at bats to go by to see if things even out, you are going to be disappointed.”
When did anyone say they wanted that???????
Therein lies the disconnect.
see. there you go again trying to turn this debate into some play some sort of IQ challenge where you assume you’re more intelligent.
i just don’t see it that way.
i don’t think there’s any correlation between being old school and intelligence.
except maybe someone who has a lot of experience competing might not choke on an IQ test
some people are more clutch with IQ tests than others
kevin long is going to try to teach cano to hit better with men on base.
if he succeeds, cano will hit in pressure situations like he normally does in non pressure situations and this will be clutch by my definition.
if you want long to do nothing and wait for a thousand at bats to go by to see if things even out, you are going to be disappointed.
kevin long is not a sabermetrician.
–
You seem to be the one bringing up the idea of an IQ test. I have taken them before and was very pleased with my results, but for the most part I think IQ tests are bogus and designed to sucker parents into purchasing ‘gifted’ materials for their children. This also has nothing to do with clutch’s existence.
However, if you’d like, I’ll change that sentence to say ‘Randy can f off to a baseball player mensa meeting, where they can talk about clutch and grit all day’
And now you’ve essentially just stated that it is only your entirely subjective opinion that clutch exists, which I will grant you. By your definition and opinion, if Robinson Cano fulfills the goals you have laid out for him, he will be ‘Randy Brand Clutch’, which thankfully does in no way prove the existence of ‘True Clutch’, and I appreciate you humbly stepping down from the argument and agreeing that you merely have an opinion.
I have also never stated Long should do nothing, but thats been said many times.
I have met Kevin Long last spring training, and he is scarily more into sabermetrics than you’d probably like. He is also a really nice guy.
let’s go yankees-
you still sticking with the more you played the less you know thing?
between stuckey, jerkface and you, i really think you’re using the least of your intelligence. i think stuckey ,as annoying as he is ,is probably the smartest of the three of you though it’s hard to say because jerkface probably doesn’t test well on IQ tests.
when he gets mad he’s kind off drops down about ten to fifteen points.
personally despite the sensitivity to pressure, i think he’s smart. i’d have a beer with him. he’s no yahoo.
he has to be very smart to create all that spin that clutch doesn’t exist while he’s a yankee fan with jeter and mariano on the team.
that’s not easy to do, but he making a gallant attempt.
Jerkface, Your 1:08 posting just sounds like sour grapes, as though you have a chip on your shoulder torwards guys who played ob…It’s your way of seeking equal ground, and that’s sad that you feel that way….But then agin your overly aggressive pursuit of pushing your point of view and tearing down waht has been established now makes sense to me, as it’s rather revealing…..Were you always the last guy picke dfor the team ????
“You seem to be the one bringing up the idea of an IQ test.”
jerkface-
i never mentioned intelligence first. you’re the one who keeps bringing it up with the yahoo comments , so i thought you wanted intelligence to be part of the discussion.
You guys are classic.
Randy,
Without looking at stats, simple yes or no, are these past and present yankees clutch?
A-rod
Jeter
Tex
Posada
Matsui
Damon
Gardner
Granderson
Johnson
“I have met Kevin Long last spring training, and he is scarily more into sabermetrics than you’d probably like.”
than why doesn’t he wait a thousand at bats for things to work themselves out?
A-rod- wasn’t until he change his hitting approach last summer. he started hitting ground balls up the middle with regularity with men in scoring position base. totally different hitter than he was before.
Jeter-yes
Tex – yes
Posada yes
Matsui yes
Damon yes
Gardner- don’t know
Granderson- don’t know
Johnso
As I finally call it a night, Kudos to m, as she made some outstanding points that were lost amnist all the shouting and finger pointing and spilt beers…..She remained a lady that consistenly hit the mark………
A-rod- wasn’t until he change his hitting approach last summer. he started hitting ground balls up the middle with regularity with men in scoring position base. totally different hitter than he was before.
Jeter-yes
Tex – yes
Posada yes
Matsui yes
Damon yes
Gardner- don’t know
Granderson- don’t know
Johnso
–
By your own definiton every player mentioned was clutch. Even A-rod. Even before he changed his approach.
nick in sf-
go work on your golf swing.
you need to get your handicap down.
actually i do too.
i haven’t played in eight years and i’m having trouble breaking 80.
topping tee shots. three putting greens. chili dipping chips.
i suck.
“She remained a lady that consistenly hit the mark………”
pat m-
i agree.
randy… all I can say is, I again think you would enjoy Bob Dylan’s “Last Thoughts on Woody Guthrie” — not a joke or a setup, it’s an excellent piece. I recommend it to anyone, actually.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3U1I-ELJ6g
Otherwise, it was a very odd discussion.
Jerkface, Your 1:08 posting just sounds like sour grapes, as though you have a chip on your shoulder torwards guys who played ob…It’s your way of seeking equal ground, and that’s sad that you feel that way….But then agin your overly aggressive pursuit of pushing your point of view and tearing down waht has been established now makes sense to me, as it’s rather revealing…..Were you always the last guy picke dfor the team ????
–
I think its the opposite. Guys like you and Randy are no longer able to rely on your lookin balls and folksy attitude towards sports.
I have no problem with people using experience to back up a point, but over-reliance on personal experience to the detriment of other information is foolish and its the agenda that you all are pushing.
And like Randy, you are now resorting to completely baseless accusations and disingenuous assertions.
I’ve been a captain, a reliable member of a team, and even a backup or casual player. Thankfully, were I ever to be picked last, it would certainly have no bearing on this argument.
Whats the difference between a sabermetrician saying “Everything you know is a lie, the numbers don’t!” and an old schooler saying “I once caught Mickey Mantle’s used condom in the bullpen. I know what I’m talking about.”
Nothing.
nick in sf-
i listened to three minutes of it and bookmarked the link.
thanks.
Jerkface, You just took this to a lever never seen before, your desperate now…….
Aww. I think I’m leaning toward the flat-earthers. You guys are sweet.
“Whats the difference between a sabermetrician saying “Everything you know is a lie, the numbers don’t!” and an old schooler saying “I once caught Mickey Mantle’s used condom in the bullpen. I know what I’m talking about.””
so you equate all on field baseball experience to a vulgar reference that you made up.
and watch your mouth with mantle.
there’s no need for that kind of stuff on the blog.
Can’t sleep Pat? I hope its not a going problem, I heard that can be a growing problem. Consult your doctor.
On that list, Gardner hit in the clutch against Papelbon. That doesn’t make him clutch. He hasn’t done it enough times.
So it’s not really about percentage (Carmelo), it’s how many times you’ve done it (Jeter).
So hit in the clutch enough times, then you become known as a clutch player. Whether you deserve the moniker or not.
On that list, Gardner hit in the clutch against Papelbon. That doesn’t make him clutch. He hasn’t done it enough times.
–
He hit for his career average(actually better) with RISP. That makes him clutch. Or are you saying that clutch is anything anyone wants it to be? In which case theres no point to argue as everyones opinion will differ.
Jerkface, I’ll be fine thank you…..anbien maybe in order after tonight……m, you’re a gift around here, regardless of what the numbers say or not say…..I know talent
But I thought there was no thing as clutch?
To me, being clutch is coming up big in certain situations. Tree in the forest kind of thing.
Jerkface, In case you’re not paying attention, I live in LA
and jerkface-
i think that kevin long uses a tremendous amount of technology with video analysis , but i don’t consider that sabermetric.
i’m not even sure fx data is sabermetric.
it’s really just a technology like using a radar gun right except more sophisticated.
you seem to think all technology in baseball is sabermetric. or maybe you don’t.
i know i don’t.
you seem to think all technology in baseball is sabermetric.
–
You literally just made this up, like most of the things you argue against.
Part of Girardi’s big binder, which I was not allowed to look in, is basically a treasure trove of sabermetric type stats. K Long uses alot of the stuff the Yankees come up with for their hitters, as well as extensive video work.
He said specifically their value system for what a player does with any given pitch. (Like fangraphs pitch values but alot more detailed) And he gives the information to the players he thinks would want to use it. Thats the most specific he got.
And no sht Pat, you live in LA? You only bring it up all the time. You said you were going to bed and then suddenly you pop in to throw another weak jab so I joshed you a little about your prostate.
Good night Yankee brethren
But I thought there was no thing as clutch?
To me, being clutch is coming up big in certain situations. Tree in the forest kind of thing.
–
When no one can agree on what it is, I think its likely it doesn’t exist to the extent that those who believe in it think.
You and Randy have completely different ideas on clutch, yours is the least scientific but atleast it makes sense, as its rooted in the dramatic nature of the game.
Thank You Jerkface…No more LA
when game stats are accumulated on computers , at what point are they just stats and data and at what point do they become sabermetricized .
why is the simple data for all the type of pitches thrown considered sabermetric ?
isn’t that something else? isn’t it just data. just what happened.
doesn’t there have to be some sort of algorithm that uses the stats before they are sabermetric stats.
“You and Randy have completely different ideas on clutch,”
don’t bet on it .
If you want, consider all my arguments today and replace sabermetrics with statistical analysis.
I think pitch values become ‘statistical analysis’ when you consider their ‘run values’, ie if you look at all sliders A-rod swung at in 2009, or against this pitcher, or whatever, what is the net result in terms of runs (however the yankees calculate that).
He didn’t say he had a retrosheet of pitches, it was like if the fangraphs pitch values had situational splits.
yours is the least scientific but atleast it makes sense, as its rooted in the dramatic nature of the game.
=======================================
I can live with this. See? No need to talk about yahoos, prophylactics, or prostrates.
Please go to sleep, so I can declare myself the winner.
don’t bet on it .
–
Oh no is your argument changing again?
“Part of Girardi’s big binder, which I was not allowed to look in, is basically a treasure trove of sabermetric type stats”
jerkface-
just because you buy a ticket, you don’t get to see girardi’s big book.
how long did the ushers let you stand up near the railing ?
get any autographs?
I am going to pull a randy and bring up a completely diff sport to make my point, but back to basketball. Teams have awesome amounts of raw data which can be broken down and refined. Most basketball teams do not give their players that data, they instruct the coaches to coach the players using the data, because most of the players don’t want to hear “If you drive Kobe to shoot off his left hand for a layup, he will lose 20% off his FG%” they want to hear “When you are D’ing up Kobe, push him right, geet physical with him!”
Only certain players get the full data.
I imagine the same thing is with pro baseballers. A-rod loves stats and knowing the pitch tendancies. Jeter likes to hit. I’m sure K-Long gets serious with A-rod in his preparation before a series, I’m sure he is less serious with Jeter.
Doesn’t mean K-Long doesn’t use stat analysis to help the Yankees. As an effective communicator he should change up the way he presents information.
get any autographs?
–
I don’t autograph hunt, its cheap. I prefer to shake the players hand and congratulate them or give them a kind word. It makes for a better memory.
I got to talk to K Long by the minor league field fence one day while he was watching some yankees I didnt pay attention to hit off a tee.
“I think pitch values become ’statistical analysis’ when you consider their ‘run values’, ie if you look at all sliders A-rod swung at in 2009, or against this pitcher, or whatever, what is the net result in terms of runs (however the yankees calculate that).”
so at the point that there a database of all pitches thrown and what kind they are, that’s just data , and when a formula is used to translate this into runs then it’s sabermetric ?
Oh, lord. Aren’t you guys supposed to call a doctor if this lasts for more than 24 hours?
G’night. I’m tapping out.
“I don’t autograph hunt, its cheap. I prefer to shake the players hand and congratulate them or give them a kind word. It makes for a better memory.”
i was teasing you about the autographs meaning that of course you were there as a fan.
“I got to talk to K Long by the minor league field fence one day while he was watching some yankees I didnt pay attention to hit off a tee.”
and girardi wouldn’t hand his big book over the fence for you to look at ?
you should have proved your sabermetric worth and told him “CLUTCH SUCKS”.
i’m sure he would have just handed it over.
all kidding aside, being able to talk to players or coaches up close is one of the best things about spring training.
so at the point that there a database of all pitches thrown and what kind they are, that’s just data , and when a formula is used to translate this into runs then it’s sabermetric ?
–
Anything is just data until its processed into information. You could call it sabermetric, or analyzed, or whatever you’d like. Once it gets refined its information.
Oh, lord. Aren’t you guys supposed to call a doctor if this lasts for more than 24 hours?
G’night. I’m tapping out.
–
This kind of attitude is why you didn’t win.
m-
i thought you nailed what clutch is .
you are the winner
“Anything is just data until its processed into information. You could call it sabermetric, or analyzed, or whatever you’d like. Once it gets refined its information.”
doesn’t it have to be right to be information ?
doesn’t it have to be right to be information ?
–
In your case? Probably not.
i’ll let it go for now , and leave it for another conversation, but i think too many stats and numbers are under the umbrella of sabermetrics when really they are just data bases of info like the pitch type counting.
computers can store stats. that’s not what makes the stats sabermetric.
and also video imaging technology and medical technology is not sabermetric.
it’s just technology.
my larger point is sabermetrics doesn’t get to claim all technological innovation.
but that’s for another night.
so information could be wrong and still be information.
it wouldn’t be much good then would it ?
except to you who could probably do a lot with bad info.
is that what bill james did?
start up sabermetrics with bad info?
thanks jerkface.
i’m starting to understand.
I heard if you say Bill James three times into your mirror, Randy comes to your house at night and sort of shouts at your window until morning.
that’s it for me.
goodnight.
OMG: Fans still awake and posting. Hooray for the west-coasters.
RE: Clutch and a proposal for 2010 LoHud fans.
After reading all the posts regarding the subject it appears that there are two camps and no one is conceding to the other.
My proposal for the Yankees 2010 season is to have a contest after each game for LoHud fans to declare the Yankee player who made the best clutch play during that one game.
Suggested Rules would be:
1. Only serious responses will be accepted. Whoever ends up being the vote taker and counter will make that final decision.
2. Only one entry person.
3. Entry must include the exact play considered as the clutch play. ie, Tex making a diving play to end the 8th inning w/runners on 2 and 3rd (with Damon at bat!).
4. At the end of the game the final count will be totaled and the player and Lo-Hud entrant/winner will be announced.
This would be a interesting way to keep track of the Yankee clutch player of the game. It isn’t scientic but the Lo-Huder’s provide the vote. Similiar to the “name the day’s lineup” but the vote is tallied at the end of the game instead of before the game. Winner TB announced at the end of the season. Because the debate of “clutch” has been acrimonious at times the post season should also be included in some manner.
My prediction by the end of the season:
1. Jeter
2. Tex
3. Mo
4. Alex
What do you think fans??
It maybe that there is no real clutch play per game and the voter can state that. So an entry would include:
1. Name of Player
2. Exact play, etc.
3. None.
JeterJoba,
I like! We can have a LHCPOG contest. Everyone can vote (no write or wrong answers) and people will debate into the night.
Speaking of. I win. Outlast. Outsmart. Outclutch.
Seriously, just came back to post this interesting article on baseball testing blood samples for HGH down in the minors (since most are not members of the players union).
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02.....f=baseball
Bronx Born nailed it for me.
IMO the sabre argument boils down– to if there is not a stat to prove it, or a way to quantify it, it does not exist.
(Insert a Yogi-ism here)
Are the days of 9 droids running around the field streaming live data straight to thier computers far off. For many of us, a sad way to look at the game.
OBTW did anybody offer an explanation on Mo’s post-season numbers?