Going over the basics
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Feb 24, 2010 
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It finally feels like spring training around here with infielders taking grounders on two different fields.
In the stadium, on the main field, are Brandon Laird, Derek Jeter, Eduardo Nunez, Robinson Cano, Jorge Vazquez and Juan Miranda. Laird is at third, Nunez seems to be getting all of his time next to Jeter at short. Nothing out of the ordinary, just some double play flips and a few throws across the diamond.
On the back field, it’s the same thing: Alex Rodriguez and Kevin Russo at third, Ramiro Pena at short, Reegie Corona at second, Mark Teixeira and Nick Johnson at first.
Putting this here because Doreen made a good point 2 threads ago that I wanted to address
Much of the time, I can see both sides’ point of view. And to me, the answer is a simple, experience and data both play an important role in baseball, but sometimes they change dominant positions, so to speak
–
That is a fair position to take, and one I advocate. Which is ironic, because I am often arguing for stats. I have always been 100% behind stats + scouting/experience.
Players need experience, or someone with experience (a coach) to help them. Just giving them numbers isn’t going to do anything if they can’t understand where the numbers came from or why they matter. And the numbers help people quantify experience and events to garner better understanding. Experience in this case doesn’t even need to be playing the game. You don’t need to play to SEE how Rivera’s cutter gets in on the hands of opposing batters. If you really want just take one trip down to the batting cage and stand in on the machine and hit one off the label. It sucks!
The disconnect comes from people suggesting that numbers are unnecessary, as in if they never existed we’d be just fine. We wouldn’t, because humans are trained to look for patterns and numbers. You couldnt make a decision if your brain wasnt allowed to look back at your past experience and quantify all your life data.
“If I try to jump this gorge, will I make it?”
Your brain is thinking “Dude you’ve jumped 5 gorges and missed every damn time”
Some would say thats experience, but you have to look at the experiences together, totalled and refined, to get an accurate measure of what you think is going to happen.
Chad,
Please don’t listen to a few critics and start a new thread every hour.
(repost)
I was away from the blog for a while…
I have to say this windmill based, seemingly endless “debate” on “sabermetrics” vs. “traditionalists” is remarkably tedious.
And it’s going on seemingly for days.
This whole “debate” is getting worse. It’s not just here I guess. It’s happening all over the internet.
Both sides are seem to be becoming more and more reactionary.
Both sides of this debate are repeating arguments analogous to ones that ran rampant across different fields in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
And now all those old arguments are getting repeated in baseball.
It’s spring training! The team just won the world series.
A couple of thoughts for this season:
1. A strong spring by Jorge Vazquez may lead to the Yankees unloading Juan Miranda. At this point Miranda has nothing left to prove in AAA and no room to advance within the organization.
2. I believe that ultimately Eduardo Nunez will be shifted to the outfield. Jeter’s likely going to spend at least another 5 seasons (including this one) at SS and Nunez’s bat is probably one that’s best suited for everyday play. He’s not a very good defensive SS at this point but his athletic ability should translate well into a corner spot.
3. I believe that Gardner will slip down the depth chart behind Winn, Hoffmann and Winfree. The latter two both have much higher ceilings than Gardner does and Hoffmann may be better defensively than Brett. Gardner is a one tool player – speed – and while speed doesn’t go on slumps it is also true that you can’t steal first base. Homer Bush was a speedster too – didn’t mean he was qualified to play every day.
In fact, I’m not certain that Brett will be on the 25 man roster to open the season.
If Brett has a bad spring and Winn has a good one I believe the Yankees may opt to send Gardner to AAA and go with Thames and Hoffmann as OF bench options. Sending Gardner to AAA costs them nothing, but they would likely lose Hoffmann if they tried to send him down and Thames may opt for free agency rather than go to AAA
Chad should start a new thread whenever he has something worth posting. If it’s 20 minutes, great. If it’s 2 hours, great.
Most of us come here for info and if has something to report, he should.
CB February 24th, 2010 at 11:40 am
I was away from the blog for a while…
I have to say this windmill based, seemingly endless “debate” on “sabermetrics” vs. “traditionalists” is remarkably tedious.
And it’s going on seemingly for days.
This whole “debate” is getting worse. It’s not just here I guess. It’s happening all over the internet.
Both sides are seem to be becoming more and more reactionary.
Both sides of this debate are repeating arguments analogous to ones that ran rampant across different fields in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
And now all those old arguments are getting repeated in baseball.
It’s spring training! The team just won the world series.
—————–
Totally and completely agree.
We get it, you don’t think much of Gardner.
Chip -
So just a bit ago, you say Jorge is basically done as a catcher after this year and then turn around and say Jeter will play 5 more years at SS??????????
Just to show some humor and add spice Jeter should have answered the questions like this:
Are you upset that the Yanks didn’t extend your contract prior to the season? Yes I am the man and they should pay da man (Josh Cribbs)
How long do you plan on playing? This is my last season with this team (Manny)
How long can you play SS? I would like to move over to 3B
All of the questions he was asked could have been answered by any of us in true Jeterian fashion. What a waste of his time.
I’ve been skipping over those dry arguments as I do think they are boring. CB’s last statement says it all… This is a wonderful day; I just wish I could have been there when the guys all saw each other for the first time in months – must have been a nice reunion.
“Chad should start a new thread whenever he has something worth posting. If it’s 20 minutes, great. If it’s 2 hours, great.
Most of us come here for info and if has something to report, he should.”
CountryClub,
Starting new threads makes following the discussions here more difficult for me. Chad can do what he wants, but I just won’t read the previous threads.
I agree that there is no reason to start putting up new threads just because some people are complaining.
Chad has been doing a great job. There is no lack of coverage or content.
“I agree that there is no reason to start putting up new threads just because some people are complaining.
Chad has been doing a great job. There is no lack of coverage or content.”
CB,
I agree!
“After reading all the posts regarding the subject it appears that there are two camps and no one is conceding to the other.
My proposal for the Yankees 2010 season is to have a contest after each game for LoHud fans to declare the Yankee player who made the best clutch play during that one game.”
JeterJobaCanoFan2010-
absolutely brilliant idea.
count me in.
i do have to give a lot of credit to jerkface for his part in the discussion last night.
without him there would be no BCP ( Best Clutch Play Award )
in my mind it is really the Jerkface Award.
i will always think of him as i cast my vote each night for BCP.
maybe it should be best clutch player (BCP) award because mariano rivera is possibly the best clutch player in the game. he does more than one play.
his post season record is off the charts.
0.74 era vs a 2.25 regular season era
rivera is the personified proof clutch exists.
CB-
I think it’s just that the statistical young turks are becoming less deferential in making their points. That creates a reaction from the traditionalists.
It’s an unfortunate part of the dialectic, but in the end will probably create a synthesis which everyone is more comfortable with.
Chip
If Gardner has a great spring and Winn has the spring that you think Gardner will have, does Winn get DFA’d?
__
As for the saber v. whatever it is that some of us have argued against debate, my view is that it has occurred because when some people cite stats to make their point, others make the counterpoint that the stats are bogus and only pinheads would use them, rather than pointing out how the stats are flawed.
Virtually every stat oriented person acknowledges the complimentary role of observation. The same is not true on the other side.
I disagree that the debate has become tedious. To the contrary, it was from the very beginning.
Ledger_Yankees Montero put one over the batter’s eye during BP. on his next swing he almost smoked BryanHoch Not gonna lie. I laughed. 2 minutes ago
I’m not compaining about Chad. He’s done a fine job. But if he has something worth posting, he should post it.
“I think it’s just that the statistical young turks are becoming less deferential in making their points. That creates a reaction from the traditionalists.”
This is demonstrably false, and I can’t be the only middle-aged person that has been converted to the complimentary, yet indispensable, role of stats.
“I’m not compaining about Chad. He’s done a fine job. But if he has something worth posting, he should post it.”
He does that now…via updates to an existing thread.
Jesus is a monster.
“This is demonstrably false, and I can’t be the only middle-aged person that has been converted to the complimentary, yet indispensable, role of stats.”
What?
You’re going to get a very angry letter from my pastor.
The only point that I argue against is the tenet that clutch doesn’t exist because sabermetricians have been unable to measure it.
I’ve seen at least 2 people, and possible a third one say this.
Maybe baseball doesn’t lend itself to clutch players for reasons I said last night. But that doesn’t mean that clutch doesn’t exist. (and yes, it’s more anectdotal)
So, who are the clutch baseball players that come to mind right now? Three that come to mind for me are Jeter, Manny, and Ethier. Jeter’s just been coming up big for years. Not with a thunderous bat, but a combination of things. Manny seems to rise to the occasion (isn’t amazing that he even knows the moment has arrived?). And Ethier had 6 walkoffs in a single season. (doesn’t mean he’s clutch, but he’s developing the reputation)
So, just because you can’t measure it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Every manager probably has a few players he doesn’t want to face. And one or two players he wants up in the big moment.
Finally, I present to you the Pepsi Clutch Performer campaigns. They’ve been running it for 3 years now. Not saying that a marketing campaign is solid evidence, it’s more of a player of the month/year award. But still, it’s there.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/fan_forum/pepsi/2009/
I have to admit, the idea for a BCP (Best Clutch Player) or Jerkface award intrigues me.
But who is going to be the person who volunteers to tally it every night?
““numerical evidence is not inherently correct”
I disagree. Math doesnn’t lie and isn’t biased if done properly. ”
Analytic methods used in sabermetrics in order to test any hypothesis are extremely prone to bias because of the nature of baseball data and the atheoretical basis for much of sabermetrics.
The first set biases can be mititgated with the use of sophisticated analytic methods but can’t ever be eliminated. And it’s not often one sees those kinds of analytic methods used in baseball.
And it’s pretty clear that hypothesis testing is an area where sabermetrics is eager to go.
Rich in NJ
February 24th, 2010 at 11:57 am
“I think it’s just that the statistical young turks are becoming less deferential in making their points. That creates a reaction from the traditionalists.”
This is demonstrably false, and I can’t be the only middle-aged person that has been converted to the complimentary, yet indispensable, role of stats
***************
I figured it out.
The sabREmetrics debate is really about trying to use as many big words as possible in each post!!!
So, who are the clutch baseball players that come to mind right now? Three that come to mind for me are Jeter, Manny, and Ethier. Jeter’s just been coming up big for years. Not with a thunderous bat, but a combination of things. Manny seems to rise to the occasion
–
What is the difference between a clutch play and a success of ability, similiarly, when is a player unclutch and when did a player simply fail on a skill level?
Why did Jeter ground into a double play in the world series rally in Game 5, instead of hitting a clutch double?
To me, it just doesn’t make sense.
I have to admit, the idea for a BCP (Best Clutch Player) or Jerkface award intrigues me.
But who is going to be the person who volunteers to tally it every night?
______________________
Fangraphs already does this. The biggest WPA play of every game is by definition the play that most increased the chance of winning the game. Isn’t that the most clutch play of the game?
Gotta lose the bold tags, Chip. They’re good for a few words or a sentence, but it’s akin to shouting when you do it by the paragraph.
Erica
“I figured it out.
The sabREmetrics debate is really about trying to use as many big words as possible in each post!!!”
I guess that’s a credit for you and a debit for me.
The potential doom scenario has made me wonder how much the Yankees would have benefitted from adding a more solid backup catcher this off-season. As it stands, if Posada gets hurt the Yankees will have Francisco Cervelli and his 106 career plate appearances playing every day, with journeyman Mike Rivera backing him up. That means the Yankees would go from having catchers well above replacement level, perhaps five or six wins combined, to catchers much closer to replacement. A Cervelli/Rivera combination might produce 2 WAR, a steep drop-off from Posada/Cervelli.
from RAB
“I think it’s just that the statistical young turks are becoming less deferential in making their points. That creates a reaction from the traditionalists.”
That’s part of it but not the whole story. There can be almost an intoxicating effect from mathematics, particularly when people come to it for the first time and don’t have direct experience with it.
This has happened over and over again in different fields in the past. Psychology and economics are good examples.
People wind up ascribing to statistics, attributes which are outside of statistics and that statistics themselves can’t support.
BryanHoch Greg Golson switched to 27, clearing 61 for Chan Ho Park
3 minutes ago via txt
JGS
February 24th, 2010 at 12:03 pm
I have to admit, the idea for a BCP (Best Clutch Player) or Jerkface award intrigues me.
But who is going to be the person who volunteers to tally it every night?
______________________
Fangraphs already does this. The biggest WPA play of every game is by definition the play that most increased the chance of winning the game. Isn’t that the most clutch play of the game?
************
I think the real experiment is whether the good people of LoHud agree with what the numbers calculate
m-
I didn’t say cluch hitting doesn’t exist. I just said it hasn’t been found yet, and after a thing has been looked for a while you begin to wonder if it does in fact exist, especially if it is as big and important thing as clutch hitting.
But I don’t deny that it could exist.
“What?”
First, I’m hardly young, so it’s inaccurate to call all saber oriented people young turks, and I also think it’s inaccurate to say that the saber side is less deferential when all they have attempted to do is to use stats to back up their arguments, and as I said above, the response of the other side is that the stats suck and that people who use them are pinheads.
Both sides of this debate are repeating arguments analogous to ones that ran rampant across different fields in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
And now all those old arguments are getting repeated in baseball.
It’s spring training! The team just won the world series.”
cb-
there is no one on this blog i respect more han you, but this debate is part of the fabric of the game now.
deciding when to use and when to not use sabermetrics is important.
i spoke of a very specific spring training situation with kevin long coaching cano
and trying help him with his poor numbers with men in scoring position.
i think the fact a coach tries to improve a hitter who doesn’t hit well with men in scoring position says that the coach believes the hitter is having a problem.
jerkface asserted that the problem would all come out over time with cano and be solved by a thousand at bats.
that is the classic sabermetric position.
i’m just pointing out a sabermetric batting coach wouldn’t bother helping cano if he thought there was no problem in the first place and that it would work out in the end.
the very fact that long works closely with cano trying to solve this problem shows that long thinks cano is doing something wrong in his approach with men on base and that it is not just because it is a small sample and a statistical anomaly.
Jerkface,
Because he can’t get a hit every frickin’ time. Seriously.
He’s done it seemingly more than others, that’s why he’s got the reputation of being clutch.
So maybe it doesn’t exist in baseball, but plenty people believe in clutch. Jeter has the reputation of being clutch. If that makes everyone wrong because you can’t measure it, then so be it.
And you always cite, “we bring evidence to the table”. You just haven’t been able to find a way to measure clutch. You haven’t proved it doesn’t exist.
The debate is totally tedious, it always has been. Though, the sanctimony of the flat earth society around here is often good for some laughs.
FWIW
CB- Agree
WYH- Disagree. I don’t see the sides finding enough common ground,
and the debate has gotten far too personal.
MPOV – Very much like Doreen’s. 2 sides of the same coin.
WYH,
You were the “maybe a third person” I was thinking of.
Thanks for clarifying.
“People wind up ascribing to statistics, attributes which are outside of statistics and that statistics themselves can’t support.”
CB-
True. But the wrong-headed arguments coming from the stat side aren’t necessarily more wrong-headed or frequent than the arguments coming from the non-stat side.
We are all just working through the public forum thing. There will be lots of wrong arguments and lots of right ones from both sides, with plenty of shades of grey in between. I think it’s just a process to be sorted through and I guess it isn’t always pretty.
Brett Gardner hit .270/.345/.379 in the major leagues last year.
Jamie Hoffman, in his minor league career, is a .285/.357/.407 hitter.
No one can seriously tell me that Hoffman is more of an asset than Gardner is.
Brett Gardner hit .270/.345/.379 in the major leagues last year.
Jamie Hoffman, in his minor league career, is a .285/.357/.407 hitter.
No one can seriously tell me that Hoffman is more of an asset than Gardner is.
“IMO the sabre argument boils down– to if there is not a stat to prove it, or a way to quantify it, it does not exist.
For many of us, a sad way to look at the game.:
ANYTHING real can be observed and measured. ANY conclusion can be scrutinized to see if the observation and measurements supports it. The “art” of this science isn’t infallible, mistakes can be made. But objective truths can be learned over time and trial.
Whether or not this somehow robs baseball of its fun, beauty, mystery is a legitimate philosophical debate.
Just be careful to assume to judge the people who like science to have no appreciation for art. It’s the farthest thing from the truth. It’s their interest in the art that makes them curious as to the science of it.
Whether “clutch” exists can be measured and theories postulated, simply because everything anyone ever did on a baseball field can be recorded, examined and patterns identified.
This has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with not appreciating the human element of the game, and being able to enjoy it’s simple beauty. This “debate” would move forward considerably if the art folks can simply accept the science folks are not TRYING to spoil your fun out of spite or arrogance.
Truth is fun, and beautiful and mysterious, in its own right.
That baseball has both – artful and scientific beauty, is what makes it great.
CB
“People wind up ascribing to statistics, attributes which are outside of statistics and that statistics themselves can’t support.”
It’s one thing to methodically unpack the use of a given stat or set of stats in a given context, it’s another to argue that all stats suck without explaining why.
It seems that the Yankees’ defensive metrics line up nicely with the argument I put forth last week when I suggested that the Yanks use Granderson in left and Gardner in center. Still, the team can’t be faulted for going with the career center fielder instead of the still-young Gardner. The tandem will cover a lot of ground in the outfield, and Granderson’s bat plays well in center.
Cashman’s discussion here also could be read as a tacit admission that Gardner is not a long-term solution to an outfield position on the Yanks. The team has been rumored to be interested in Carl Crawford, and the Yanks would rather not move Granderson from center to left and back to center again over the span of one or two seasons. He has a good enough glove to do it, but teams prefer consistency and predictability over the course of 162 games.
Meanwhile, during the same interview, Cashman cleared up another Spring Training mystery of sorts. He also told Bowden that Nick Johnson would bat second for the Yanks. Sticking a guy with an on-base percentage over .400 in front of Mark Teixeira and A-Rod is a recipe for runs, runs and more runs.
Because he can’t get a hit every frickin’ time. Seriously.
He’s done it seemingly more than others, that’s why he’s got the reputation of being clutch.
So maybe it doesn’t exist in baseball, but plenty people believe in clutch. Jeter has the reputation of being clutch. If that makes everyone wrong because you can’t measure it, then so be it.
And you always cite, “we bring evidence to the table”. You just haven’t been able to find a way to measure clutch. You haven’t proved it doesn’t exist.
–
He has got it done seemingly more than others. Seemingly. The stats say that Derek Jeter is the same kind of hitter with RISP that he is without, a very good one.
He isn’t extra special , I think that is fairly solid evidence that clutch does not exist. A player, widely reknown as clutch, offers no significant statistical increase in ‘clutch’ situations.
I am fine with you believing in the dramatic nature of clutch, but you can’t say we never were able to disprove Jeter is clutch.
granderson is in cf & johnson is batting second
Rich-
My use of the phrase “young turks” was purely metaphorical. It alluded to those espousing newer ideas in a more aggressive way.
Wonk wonk wonk
i think clutch can be measured to a degree
the players that are more relaxed like jeter,manny,mo,etc.
now look at players like arod & his personality before last year
arod learned to relax last year & it paid off
No, sabermetricians haven’t proven that clutch doesn’t exist.
Whose definition are you using? That a player plays better in the clutch moment than in a regular moment?
To me, it’s someone who has risen to the occasion in the big moment.
Not someone who hit a single to bring in a run in the first inning of game #52 of the regular season.
Jeter is the same as his career in High Leverage, better in Middle Leverage, and worse in Low Leverage. Worse in Close and Late, better in 2 out and risp.
SO either baseball analysts have incorrectly labelled situations as high leverage, or clutch doesnt really exist as we believe it does. I have already agreed that specific hits or plays can be clutch.
“The potential doom scenario has made me wonder how much the Yankees would have benefitted from adding a more solid backup catcher this off-season. As it stands, if Posada gets hurt the Yankees will have Francisco Cervelli and his 106 career plate appearances playing every day, with journeyman Mike Rivera backing him up.”
We talked about this issue here on the blog quite a bit.
Given Posada’s age and propensity for injury there was a real argument to be made that the yankees should have brought in a better hitting back up catcher and stash cervellin in AAA.
In a sense they would have been better leveraging the flexibility that Cervelli and his options would have allowed them.
That said it’s just not easy to find a decent back up catcher. I would have like the team to sign Gregg Zaun this off season. He signed a very reasonable 1.5M deal with the Brewers. Spending 1.5M on Zaun may have been more valuable than spending 1.2M on Park, for example.
But this all gets back to the problem the yanks have getting bench players. Zaun had a chance to start with the Brewers and that’s probably part of why he went there.
Don’t know why the mets didn’t make a play for him.
Whose definition are you using? That a player plays better in the clutch moment than in a regular moment?
To me, it’s someone who has risen to the occasion in the big moment.
Not someone who hit a single to bring in a run in the first inning of game #52 of the regular season.
______________
They are one and the same. The guys that get hits more often in big moments are the same guys who get hits more often in the first inning of game #52 of the regular season. There is a reason for this. They are good hitters who get hits more often than average players in EVERY situation. We just tend to remember the big hits more
To me, it’s someone who has risen to the occasion in the big moment.
–
This is so subjective that I dont think it should even be a part of the discussion.
“i think clutch can be measured to a degree”
Like pornography? We know it when we see it?
“the very fact that long works closely with cano trying to solve this problem shows that long thinks cano is doing something wrong in his approach with men on base and that it is not just because it is a small sample and a statistical anomaly.”
This is fine and well but doesn’t answer the question of whether your definition of “clutch” is the exception, rather than the rule.
Robinson Cano might happen to be one of the RARE players than seemingly underperforms in “leverage” situations.
Just understand if YOUR definition essentially defines “clutch” as something that doesn’t exist in any greater % than the mean, then you’re going to have to expect some resistance.
If the ability to be “clutch” (which by your definition is just performing normally in certain situations) is not unusual, then what’s the point of identifying it, much less stridently arguing for its existence?
Kevin Long and Robinson Cano is anecdotal. It does not prove that the ability to perform normally in certain situation is unusual. It just argues that one player does not.
So I’ll ask again, can you in fact support the position that “clutch” is in fact, unusual?
m
“No, sabermetricians haven’t proven that clutch doesn’t exist.”
I posted an article yesterday by Tom Tango, one of the preeminent saber thinkers, that acknowledges that clutch does exist. The issue is the strength of the effect.
M- you said some most righteous things last night and seems like you are continuing today.
To say that clutch does not exist simply because you cannot measure it is to say the soul does not exist and we are merely flesh and blood. That is ridiculous.
People are clutch in many different arenas of life and rise to the occasion, necessity level kicks in, adrenaline is flowing and they make the play.
Clutch is performing under pressure.
The more you do it, the more clutch you are.
Like I said, it’s not percentage (Carmelo), it’s volume (Jeter & Kobe).
Players who perform well in the postseason are the ones that are widely considered to be clutch. Even though they perform well in non-clutch situations, too!
“Analytic methods used in sabermetrics in order to test any hypothesis are extremely prone to bias because of the nature of baseball data and the atheoretical basis for much of sabermetrics.”
CB-
one thing i brought up last night was where does baseball data end and sabermetric data begin?
i am annoyed in general by sabermetrics seeming to be taking credit for all technological innovations in the game.
video and imaging technology is not sabermetrics.
medical and conditioning technology is not sabermetrics.
even a data base that charts the kinds of pitches thrown are not sabermetric as far as i’m concerned.
i think data becomes sabermetric when an algorithm is used to transform it into something else besides just counting and recording what happens .
now i may be totally off base because i’m not fluent in sabermetrics, but i do not think all data that can be gathered and stored is sabermetric.
i think technological innovation is huge in the game with video , medical, conditioning, and data base technology.
but no way these things are sabermetric.
Sabermetrics reminds me of Artificial Intelligence (AI). With AI some of the most difficult things were easy, but something simple like trying to discern what items are chairs was nearly impossible.
Now that said, I am a Stats guy. But until the Sabermetrics gets the input biases right, it is not a tool that is accurate. But every day it gets better or at least more consistent. IMO, a mixture of both Sabermetrics and the eyes are necessary. (Probably a 60-40 mix of Eyes & Saber IMO.)
Chip
Vazquez could have a tremendous spring the Yanks are not going to unload Miranda as they are internally very high on his bat. Juan will probably be the first bat to get called up if and when NJ hits the DL or god forbid Tex sees time on the DL as well. Depth is important and if Miranda is killing AAA then his trade value only increases.
Jeter will not play another 5yrs at SS and Nunez right now is a much better defensive SS than Jeter. If they had plans to shift Nunez to the OF then they would already have done it. Best case scenario Jeet has a great season both offensively and defensively and Nunez does the same at AAA and again his trade value goes through the roof. However it’s also possible that Jeter is moved off the SS position in the next 2-3 years as he’s not an Omar Vizquel type that will playing SS everyday at age 40-42. Different bodytypes totally.
Your opinion on Brett Gardner seems to based on the fact that you thunk that Brett is not a major league offensive player and in that I think you are wrong. Gardner’s game is in the mold of Chone Figgins and if given the opportunity to develop that all young players need I feel he will continue to move towards that “ceiling”. Interestingly enough if you compare their production at equal points in their careers the #’s are almost identical in fact Bretts are slightly better.
Question…if you had Randy Winn,David Winfree,Hoffman and Chone Figgins who would you start?
The Yankees have stated clearly that they wnat to see if Gardner establishes himself as an everyday player and that they feel he is a GG caliber defensive player. So what they are telling you is that Gardner unless he absolutely falls flat on his face has a starting job and Winn is just a bench player.
Brett’s history is that it usually take him that 1st yr to get his legs under him in then after that he makes his adjustment and raises his game. The Yanks are fully aware of that and if that holds true to form than they are expecting him to have an impact level of play for us this year, albeit without power.
Brett btw hit .270 his rookie year which was exactly what Gordon Beckham hit and he was 2nd in the R.O.Y. voting.
Erica – always OPPC
February 24th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Wonk wonk wonk
*************************
LOL I second the wonk, wonk, wonk
m
If Ethier’s 6 walkoffs gives him the reputation of clutch, do Jeter’s 0 walk offs last year hurt his reputation of clutch?
Events are clutch, not people.
It is subjective. And if you have enough people in agreement, then it becomes a concensus, and the legend grows.
In the interview in RAB with Cashman, I notice that while Cashman said that CG was the center fielder, he also said that the Yanks’ defensive metrics made Gardner one of the “elite” CFs in the game.
In that regard, at least, I guess the Yanks’ defensive metrics and UZR lines up.
The only true clutch player I’ve ever seen was Roy Hobbs! LOL!
“i am annoyed in general by sabermetrics seeming to be taking credit for all technological innovations in the game.”
Can you cite examples, because I have never seen that happen?
and consensus is always right?
Clutch is performing under pressure.
The more you do it, the more clutch you are.
Like I said, it’s not percentage (Carmelo), it’s volume (Jeter & Kobe).
Players who perform well in the postseason are the ones that are widely considered to be clutch. Even though they perform well in non-clutch situations, too!
–
This just doesnt make sense. Percentage should determine who is clutch. Kobe has a lot of game winning shots because he is the only one on the lakers taking game winning shot attempts.
Its like a batter getting 1000 ‘clutch attempts’ and hitting 100 of them, where as a guy getting 100 attempts hits 50 of them. I’d probably want the guy who hit 50%.
Its just, I dunno, arguments you are presenting seem really illogical.
pat,
There are clutch events and clutch players.
Jeter’s got a resume a mile long. He’s got highlight moments of the flip and catching the ball in the stands. Why is Jeter considered clutch? Because he’s had more clutch moments?
Per Dictionary.com Definition of clutch:
done or accomplished in a critical situation: a clutch shot that won the basketball game.
dependable in crucial situations: a clutch player.
Whats that thing about legends? The truth is never as good as the story. Which is why I am fine with you believing in the dramatics of clutch, but you shouldn’t bring those arguments into a debate.
What happened to the last 4 postseasons, did Jeter decide the stage wasn’t big enough? Why didnt Jeter help the Yankees in game #52 in 2008 so that they could go to the playoffs?
It just doesnt add up.
I know this has absolutely nothing to do with any of the debates going on in this (and many other) thread – but do we have a list of spring training instructors somewhere? I always like to see which former Yankees show up to help the next generation, and I haven’t seen that posted yet. Thanks!
m
“Clutch is performing under pressure.”
If you perform at the same rate with and without pressure, what is the observed skill? That someone is really clutch under pressure or that someone is really clutch all the time?
m
February 24th, 2010 at 12:30 pm
pat,
There are clutch events and clutch players.
Jeter’s got a resume a mile long. He’s got highlight moments of the flip and catching the ball in the stands. Why is Jeter considered clutch? Because he’s had more clutch moments?
************
You forgot Mr November!
and catching the ball in the stands.
–
Catching the ball happened in a non descript game in the middle of the season, decidedly not clutch.
Cash Money could be lining up Gardner for a trade as well. Maybe not. Maybe my eyes have been lying to me.
What’s all the hubbub?
The only true clutch player I’ve ever seen was Roy Hobbs! LOL!
_____________
pfft. Hobbs chokes in the biggest spot of all at the end
Scratch the play in the stands then.
Jerkface
February 24th, 2010 at 12:32 pm
and catching the ball in the stands.
–
Catching the ball happened in a non descript game in the middle of the season, decidedly not clutch.
***********
Incorrect.
Catching the ball in the stands in a extra inning, tied game against the Red Sox in a pennant race- decidedly clucth!
Or don’t scratch it. Whatever!
If you start taking away players accomplishments throughout the season, further increasing the scrutiny you give clutch plays, I think you’ll find that there really wont be any clutch players.
Jeter has the reputation for being clutch because of his solid and consistent play every game.
Uncle E
are you at ST yet?
Incorrect.
Catching the ball in the stands in a extra inning, tied game against the Red Sox in a pennant race- decidedly clucth!
____________
it was the 76th game of the season (less than halfway through) and they had an 8.5 game lead at the time
“If the ability to be “clutch” (which by your definition is just performing normally in certain situations) is not unusual, then what’s the point of identifying it, much less stridently arguing for its existence?”
stuckey-
it is unusual for human beings to perform normally under pressure.
being clutch is simply not letting the pressure stop one form their normal performance.
jeter is a great example of this.
rivera is the really rare athlete who outperforms his normal performance.
his post season record may be the best example of clutch that exists.
how do you or any sabermetrically inclined person explain mariano’s post season record if you don’t believe in clutch ?
“That said it’s just not easy to find a decent back up catcher. I would have like the team to sign Gregg Zaun this off season. He signed a very reasonable 1.5M deal with the Brewers. Spending 1.5M on Zaun may have been more valuable than spending 1.2M on Park, for example.”
When Park was signed, one of the things that struck me was that maybe the Yanks should have invested that money in another back up catcher instead.
When I went and looked, though, there were really only two free agent catchers that I thought were a real good match with the Yanks’ needs.
John Buck and Gregg Zaun.
I assume we wouldn’t have bid for a guy like Olivo, and that he wouldn’t want to come here to back up Jorge.
Buck signed a $2MM one year deal with Jays, and Zaun a $1.5MM deal with the Brewers.
Thing is, both players are likely to see much more playing time where they signed than they would have with the Yanks. Whether the chance to get a ring with the Yanks would have done the trick I don’t know.
Incorrect.
Catching the ball in the stands in a extra inning, tied game against the Red Sox in a pennant race- decidedly clucth!
–
Not an elimination game, play off game, or world series game.
Not clutch. There were plenty of opportunities for the Yankees to win games after that one. The same argument can be made for RBIs and HRs early in games
Players make clutch plays all the time. That doesn’t necessarily make them clutch players.
I’ll give you that. Jeter does have the reputation of being clutch because of his consistency. And baseball (game of failure to some degree) values consistency.
I may be blurring the lines a bit. Clutch does exist, especially in basketball. Because players have to chance to win or lose a game.
But it’s there.
“one thing i brought up last night was where does baseball data end and sabermetric data begin?
i am annoyed in general by sabermetrics seeming to be taking credit for all technological innovations in the game.
video and imaging technology is not sabermetrics.
medical and conditioning technology is not sabermetrics.”
Is in a purely fictional invention on your part. NO one here has ever claimed they are.
Anyone you’ve ever argued with about this here will straightforwardly tell you they don’t believe this. So who are you rebutting?
Some people (like myself) have referenced those things in an attempt to demonstrate that there have been significant innovation in the game of baseball, which you have outright denied in your effort to discredit sabremetrics.
That you assumed we were classifying them as sabremetrics is YOUR failure.
Uncle E
are you at ST yet?
I leave one week from tomorrow.
Have yet to yet a new phone that would allow me to post from there
how do you or any sabermetrically inclined person explain mariano’s post season record if you don’t believe in clutch ?
—
A bunch of really, really small sample sizes for a player whose ability exceeds 99% of his peers. Mariano is a machine, the less you need him to work the better he is going to be.
By your definition pretty much every major league player is clutch. Why bother with it then
Kevin Long had some interesting things to say about Cano and his struggles with men on base. Harper had it in his column today:
“We chart chase percentages for each of our hitters, and Robby chased 11% of pitches out of the strike zone, which was the highest on the team. Most guys are around 5 or 6%. And Robby’s chases go up with runners in scoring position.”
That’s a pretty telling observation by Long and the yanks. If Cano’s chase percentage goes up from 11% with RISP that is a huge handicap to try to overcome when he’s at the plate.
A larger sample size is not going to correct a systematic flaw if one is present – which Long is suggesting there is and backing up with data that has high intuitive validity given the context.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....mwycB9mUUM
JGS
February 24th, 2010 at 12:38 pm
Incorrect.
Catching the ball in the stands in a extra inning, tied game against the Red Sox in a pennant race- decidedly clucth!
____________
it was the 76th game of the season (less than halfway through) and they had an 8.5 game lead at the time
**************
Okay- however, due to intense media/fan scrutiny surrounding every Yankee/Red Sox match up you can call that clutch by default. Cause if the Yankees don’t beat the Sox everytime, the sky is falling and we are losing our lead.
“it is unusual for human beings to perform normally under pressure.”
Then why are there so many stories of mothers doing superhuman things in an emergency situation in order to save their children?
The problem with the sabremetric debates is with how they start.
For example, since Brett Gardner’s defensive abilities were just brought up again I will use that one.
1. Someone will say, I think Gardner should be the CF. He was great in CF last year. X, Y, and Z backs this up. Granderson has not been great in CF the past couple years. X, Y, and Z back this up.
2. Gb, randy, etc. say Gardner is not a great CF. He cannot go back on balls, he let doubles go over his head, he turned singles in doubles, etc. I am a season ticket holder and I saw it with my own eyes. Do not tell me some bogus statistic says otherwise.
3. Bogus? Why is it bogus?
4. Debate ensues.
The point is that a lot of the pro-stat people are not trying to force-feed people their opinions. But, when someone says the evidence you used is ridiculous you are not just going to sit there and say your right.
Its happening again!!!!!!!
Daylife has some great pictures from the Captain’s press conference this AM.
A sample:
http://www.daylife.com/photo/0.....?q=Yankees
clutch situations exist, clut players flutctuate. It’s because, all things being equal the player has at best about a .40 chance of avoiding an out. So if you’re starting out at less than even odds anyway, it’s nigh on impossible to be better than you normally are given a sufficiently large sample.
Uncle Ellsworth
February 24th, 2010 at 12:40 pm
Uncle E
are you at ST yet?
I leave one week from tomorrow.
Have yet to yet a new phone that would allow me to post from there
**********
You better get cracking on that Uncle E. Where are your priorities?
m
He has more situations of grounding into double plays, striking out and making errors. Was he a clutch choker in those situations.
Nope. He was a baseball player who has had clutch moments and not so clutch moments.
You emphasize one over the other. I see both.
“We chart chase percentages for each of our hitters, and Robby chased 11% of pitches out of the strike zone, which was the highest on the team. Most guys are around 5 or 6%. And Robby’s chases go up with runners in scoring position.”
As I posted yesterday, his BABIP for his career is lower in high leverage situations than low leverage situations.
CB
but aren’t you thrilled that Long has that data at his finger tips?
That doesn’t sound very encouraging about Cano. Long is basically saying Cano gets overanxious with RISP; changing his mentality is going to be very hard to do.
Okay- however, due to intense media/fan scrutiny surrounding every Yankee/Red Sox match up you can call that clutch by default. Cause if the Yankees don’t beat the Sox everytime, the sky is falling and we are losing our lead.
_________
to the fans and media, yes. I certainly hope the players don’t look at it that way and there is no indication that they do
Chad
Repost
Who are the instructors this ST? For example, is Reggie there?
Betsy,
why is it going to be very hard to do?
Bryant further cemented his reputation as one of the supreme clutch shooters in the NBA by hitting yet another game-winning shot against the Grizzlies in his Tuesday night return from injury. We’ve seen Kobe hit a lot of these last-second attempts, although this reminds us of the debate in baseball over clutch hitters. Is Kobe so good at game-winning shots in particular, or is he just good at hitting shots in general? We’ll never go so far to suggest that Kobe is somehow un-clutch, but it’s a point that definitely merits some kind of discussion.
lol
I agree Erica, we want first hand reports Uncle E
randy l.
i may be wrong but video and imaging technology ,medical and conditioning technology,etc that are used to make a player better compared to stats(sabermetrics) are different
stats or sm is using something that has already happened for the most part to compare players or show what a player has done
with a pitcher sabermetrics may be used to take advantage of ones strengths or a batters weakness or to show that a pitcher has more success when he throws his changeup more,etc… so the line does get blurred
but sabermetrics is the same as a stat like ops,slg,obp,era,whip, it is just that the older stats that we use,accept,understand,embrace are accepted by players,managers & show up in the box score therefor accepted by us
a lot of new stats are in the infant stages
take uzr & war.
they are becoming more accepted & a lot in here use them
it is an evolving process.some will make it,some won’t
some are more liked than others
take ops & whip as an example
these two were a sabermetric stat if you will that stood the test of time & are considered an accepted stat that shows up in box scores
Some of the debates here border on the Esoteric, and touch on areas of human experience which would seem to go way beyond the scope of Baseball.
For example, What should Science rightly consider ?
The best answer I have ever heard came from the Philosopher AJ Ayer. He said that Science should only consider things wherein an empirical observation could in reality or in principal have a bearing on the question’s truth or falsehood ?
Verification thru observation in reality or in principle is needed.
To put this in practical terms.
Science should not attempt to answer the question of wether Man has a Soul because there is no observation either in reality, or in principal which could bear on the question’s truth or falsehood. It’s more a question of Faith than Science.
So to bring it down to one of the questions at hand. Are there any observations which can be brought to bear to decide either presently or in principle wether Clutch exists ?
First, people must start with an acceptable defintion of what clutch is. There does not seem to be an agreed upon defintion of it here.
Some cite the dictionary definition; Some an Operational one.
For the discussion to bear fruit this must be settled first otherwise people are literally talking about apples, oranges, or nothing at all.
proceed if you dare, or even care.
“it is unusual for human beings to perform normally under pressure.”
Then because baseball keeps record of all occurrences in official games, and because those records are readily available to anyone with internet access, you should easily be able to demonstrate/support your assertion that this ability is in fact, unusual.
Can you Randy?
“how do you or any sabermetrically inclined person explain mariano’s post season record if you don’t believe in clutch ?”
I never said I didn’t believe clutch exists. I think it’s largely a matter of semantics where you have two different camps stubbornly butting heads talking about two different things, asusming they’re talking about the same thing.
I just said YOUR definition and understanding of clutch is difficult to support.
I’m simply trying to get you to realize that YOUR assumptions about what clutch is can be put to the truth test, through statistical analysis.
I’m further asking if you’ve done, that, or can cite an example of someone who has?
JGS
February 24th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
Okay- however, due to intense media/fan scrutiny surrounding every Yankee/Red Sox match up you can call that clutch by default. Cause if the Yankees don’t beat the Sox everytime, the sky is falling and we are losing our lead.
_________
to the fans and media, yes. I certainly hope the players don’t look at it that way and there is no indication that they do
*************
But thats the very heart of the arguement right there-
Its clutch to the fans and media. Isn’t that who determines “clutchness”
M check this out
http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm
Kobe Bryant makes only 25% of his ‘game winning shot’ attempts.
“What’s all the hubbub?”
uncle ellsworth-
“hubbub” is a great word.
basically some of us are not ceding the game to people who can’t find “clutch” on their keyboards.
they say they’ve been looking for over thirty years too.
passions are heated.
you’d be mad too if you spent 30 years looking for something that you thought didn’t exist and then didn’t find it
on the other side, we’re all just acknowledging that we all face pressure as human beings and know that we perform better sometimes than other times because of how we face and handle the pressure.
baseball players are no different.
they feel pressure and it does affect their performance.
some are better than others at dealing with it.
some are better at different times at dealing with it.
but pressure exists and so does clutch play.
don’t think of sabermetrics as a better way of conditioning,training or making an athlete better
all it is is a stat like era,slg,ops,obp,etc… to anylize what players have done,compare,etc…
Anybody remember Billy Smith? Hall of Fame goalie for the dynasty Islander team?
They didn’t call him a clutch goalie… He was a “Money” goalie.
If there was money on the line, he would rather see you in a bloody heap than see the puck in the net.
RayVT
February 24th, 2010 at 12:32 pm
Cash Money could be lining up Gardner for a trade as well. Maybe not. Maybe my eyes have been lying to me.
———————-
GB basically said the first sentence in response to that quote from Cashman. That he is “blowing smoke” to prop up his player and maybe trade him.
The problem is that I do not think any GM in baseball is listening to the radio and saying Cashmoney just said Gardner is elite in CF, get him on the phone! (well maybe Dayton Moore)
If they want Gardner they will use their own metrics, scouts, evaluations, etc. They are not just going to take Cashman’s word for it on some radio interview.
If anything, it makes Cashman look foolish in trade talks if the other teams metrics/evaluations do not align with that. Similar to Scott Boras saying Damon is a legendary player or whatever bs he spewed about him. Everyone knew he was full of it and it did not reflect well on Boras or Damon. There is just a natural backlash when someone is basically lying through their teeth in these negotiations.
“You better get cracking on that Uncle E. Where are your priorities?”
I know I know
“Then because baseball keeps record of all occurrences in official games, and because those records are readily available to anyone with internet access, you should easily be able to demonstrate/support your assertion that this ability is in fact, unusual.
Can you Randy?”
stuckey-
see mariano rivera post season:
http://www.baseball-reference......ma01.shtml
2.25 regular season
.074 postseason in 88 innings which is mora than a complte season so no small sample.
there it is . mariano rivera is my proof clutch exists.
But thats the very heart of the arguement right there-
Its clutch to the fans and media. Isn’t that who determines “clutchness”
________
But that’s silly. If they don’t view it as any higher pressure than any normal game, then it isn’t performing under pressure, and thus isn’t clutch. It’s just false narrative, which is misleading at best
BloggingBombers Granderson on his first NYY workout: “It’s kind of like the first day of school.” 2 minutes ago
Maybe the Yankees really do think Gardner is a superior CF, but would rather have a more experienced OF play center.
I’m trying to decide which of the following conversations I like following better:
1. Gardner v. the World
2. Sabermetircs v. my Eyes
3. Clutchness: “overrated or not”?
Any others I should be considering? I have yet to decide…
Wave,
I also liked Buck. I just thought Zaun, given his age, would have perhaps considered a back up role on a winning team.
Olivo would have been very nice, but that said, I didn’t think he’d take a back up job.
Another note on the back up catching situation – despite his reputation, Jose Molina wasn’t great defensively last year. He didn’t move as well as he did prior, particularly on balls in the dirt. He looked slow, not as agile.
If Posada stays healthy, they will improve on their net two way production from the catcher spot. But staying healthy is the big if…
One of the central reasons for why the yankees were so good last year – and historically have been so good – is the disproportionate production they get out of up the middle positions. The team has had this advantage again and again throughout its history. CF, catcher, 2b. And last year was no exception.
The tough part of that strategic advantage is that if one of those players gets hurt it can be devastating becuase the drop off to the back up will be huge.
And that issues becomes more and more important as Posada and Jeter age.
For those of you who have been to ST (never been but making plans for next year!), when pitchers throw BP to their teammates, how hard do they throw, do they throw breaking pitches too, or do they just lay it in there for the batters?
Thanks
“don’t think of sabermetrics as a better way of conditioning,training or making an athlete better”
bru-
that’s precisely my point with long and cano.
i’m saying that sabermetrics has little to do with helping cano get better.
if there is a small thing it helps, i’d seriously like to hear it.
so how important is sabermetrics to the game on the field is it can’t help a player get better?
Rishi
February 24th, 2010 at 1:00 pm
I’m trying to decide which of the following conversations I like following better:
1. Gardner v. the World
2. Sabermetircs v. my Eyes
3. Clutchness: “overrated or not”?
Any others I should be considering? I have yet to decide…
***********
Personally- I quit!
Rishi
February 24th, 2010 at 1:00 pm
I’m trying to decide which of the following conversations I like following better:
1. Gardner v. the World
2. Sabermetircs v. my Eyes
3. Clutchness: “overrated or not”?
Any others I should be considering? I have yet to decide…
*******************
LOL Love the Gardner vs. the World one.
“see mariano rivera post season:”
I’m a Yankee fan, dude, I know it by heart
And let me say Mariano Rivera is a far better avenue for you than Robinson Cano and Kevin Long.
But Mariano Rivera is NOT an example of how YOU defined “clutch”, which was just performing normally. He’s performed abnormally.
I’m willing to concede to you that Rivera’s performance measured against say, Jeter’s suggest Rivera in fact performs unusually where MOST others might not.
Can I get you to agree with me on that?
Rich in NJ
February 24th, 2010 at 11:54 am
Chip
If Gardner has a great spring and Winn has the spring that you think Gardner will have, does Winn get DFA’d?
——————————
Rich,
No I don’t. Gardner has options and can be sent to AAA. It’s vastly different than the idea of designating out a player.
Rich in NJ
February 24th, 2010 at 11:54 am
Chip
If Gardner has a great spring and Winn has the spring that you think Gardner will have, does Winn get DFA’d?
——————————
Rich,
No I don’t. Gardner has options and can be sent to AAA. It’s vastly different than the idea of designating out a player.
Rishi-
‘Any others I should be considering? I have yet to decide…’
Empiricism vs. Faith.
“As I posted yesterday, his BABIP for his career is lower in high leverage situations than low leverage situations.”
And that makes sense. But that also suggests the notion that his BABIP is purely a random phenomenon and that Cano’s struggles with RISP are an issue of sample size (and I’m not suggesting that you have made that argument about random effects – just that it’s commonly made).
“For those of you who have been to ST (never been but making plans for next year!), when pitchers throw BP to their teammates, how hard do they throw, do they throw breaking pitches too, or do they just lay it in there for the batters?
Thanks”
NYYROC-
they throw live BP which pitchers throw BP with a catcher behind the plate.
the pitchers throw hard,but they don’t throw all their pitches at first.
they throw mostly fastballs.
scrub catchers do most of the work because the catchers get pretty banged up back there.
What is ‘clutch’? Is there a single, unified definition that I can use to apply to any player and determine whether he’s ‘clutch’ or ‘not clutch’?
MTU
February 24th, 2010 at 1:04 pm
Rishi-
‘Any others I should be considering? I have yet to decide…’
Empiricism vs. Faith.
=======================
Thanks – I’ll add it to the list
…-
No. And that was what I said earlier. A commonly agreed upon defintion is required before progress can be made.
“but aren’t you thrilled that Long has that data at his finger tips?”
Phil,
Of course. It would be ridiculous for a multi-million dollar enterprise to not have its decision making informed by data.
Long couldn’t even attempt to “fix” Cano’s problem if he could draw a valid inference about what Cano’s problem is in the first place.
Quotes like that are very nice to hear from the yanks. They are evolving into a really first rate organization, one that balances talent evaluation and analysis very well.
randy I. Thanks for the info.
Thanks for that, Jerkface.
That stupid Phil Jackson. Putting the ball in the wrong hands. It’s obvious that he should be drawing up plays for Pau.
“so how important is sabermetrics to the game on the field is it can’t help a player get better?”
It helps GM’s measure the skills and tendencies of players that might not be readily apparent and thereby might affect the roster make-up of major league teams.
Randy, whether a GM might pursue player a or player b, or might decide to let player c go and fill a roll internally OF COURSE affects how the game is played on the field, because how 9 players play TOGETHER is the essence of baseball.
Replace player a with player b in a line-up and the results on the field CHANGE … they are affected.
How can you continue to go down this road?
Sabremetrics can HELP a GM make decisions. And they DO affect how some GM’s make decisions. They can also help a manager decide which player to use in a certain situations.
Please come back out from this dark corner and simply acknowledge this.
I won’t ridicule you for it or play “gotcha”. I’ll give you credit for being a big enough person to learn and change and acknowledge you’ve done so.
I am going to start a new debate-
Rank the 2-4 Starters in the rotation-
In your opinion, who is the #2, #3 and #4 and why?
Phil, it’s always harder to deal with someones psychological makeup than it is to deal with physicality. Clearly Cano feels anxious in those situations; you can’t just tell him to relax and expect him to do it (whereas you can change his footwork, his stance, etc……and it won’t take long to kick in). I don’t know that Cano will be able to overcome his anxiousness at the plate – we have to hope he can or else he will never live up to his potential.
Cash left the door open. He simply could’ve stopped at Curtis is our centerfielder.
But he didn’t. And they’ve already approached CG according to CG.
And I don’t think he was trying to raise Gardner’s trade stock. Teams already inquired about him, and we kinda sorta need outfielders right now.
Sabermetrics can also help determine areas of weakness. You might have an inkling as to what is causing Cano’s troubles, but until you can pinpoint it, you might just be pissing in the wind.
NYYROC-
a starting catcher like posada will do it , but not for long because it can get tiring back there and monotonous back there for the catcher.
most pitches are hit so you can get lazy after a while and let your guard down and get hurt.
a potential broken hand or some other injury keeps posada from being in there too long.
there will be a screen in front of the pitcher which is also kind of weird , but they (pitcher and catcher) get used to it.
if chad thinks of it it would be interesting to know which catcher is catching who and for how long when live BP starts tomorrow.
Pressure Level = Force / Area.
The more force is applied to a batter in a smaller time-frame (aka a single at-bat), the more pressure there is.
Force = Mass * Acceleration
The bigger the magnitude/mass of the moment (aka World Series versus Regular Season), and the better the velocity and control of the pitcher on the mound, the more force is applied on the batter.
My personal definition of “clutch” is:
“Clutch” = (OBP)*(Pressure Level)
For example, if a batter can get on base at a high rate and at a high Pressure Level, then that player to me is “clutch” because he retains a calmness and a good eye at the plate in pressure situations.
:In your opinion, who is the #2, #3 and #4 and why?”
But Erica, sabremetrics tells us the distinction is meaningless… lol
Kidding. If by pure skill/expectation of performance, I probably go Vasquez, Burnett, Pettite.
Factoring in politics and minor strategical points (splitting the lefties), it’s probably Burnett, Pettitte, Vasquez.
livan hernandez has agreement with #nats for $900,000 plus many incentives
8 minutes ago
Isn’t giving Livan a salary and incentives to eat innings redundant?
So, CB, are you saying, with regard to Long/Cano, that the the use of sabremetric-type information (statistics), in concert with what he was seeing (observation) is enabling Long to try to “fix” Cano’s approach at the plate (i.e., make him better) in high pressure (RISP/clutch) situations?
Javy should be before Andy, but I can understand why AJ and Andy are where they are.
In the playoffs it’s: Andy/Andy/Andy. He’s teh clutch!
I think Javy will be good, but I don’t think he’s the #2 starter; I expect he’ll be the #3 – but then, I think AJ is going to have a very good year and I have more faith in him than most.
This is a great post by MTU that seems to have been overlooked.
To put this in practical terms.
Science should not attempt to answer the question of wether Man has a Soul because there is no observation either in reality, or in principal which could bear on the question’s truth or falsehood. It’s more a question of Faith than Science.
So to bring it down to one of the questions at hand. Are there any observations which can be brought to bear to decide either presently or in principle wether Clutch exists ?
First, people must start with an acceptable defintion of what clutch is. There does not seem to be an agreed upon defintion of it here.
Some cite the dictionary definition; Some an Operational one.
For the discussion to bear fruit this must be settled first otherwise people are literally talking about apples, oranges, or nothing at all.
proceed if you dare, or even care.
“Sabermetrics can also help determine areas of weakness. You might have an inkling as to what is causing Cano’s troubles, but until you can pinpoint it,…”
jerface -
can you give me a simple example of this?
i would for example say that the first thing i would look at with cano is how relaxed he is with men on base.
is he tightening up?
does he take a different mental approach?
are his swing thoughts different?
a swing thought for cano might be keeping his front shoulder in.
he might take an open stance to do this which would make him more likely to step back into the ball.
doe he think up the middle ?
opposite field?
does he look for a particular pitch or does he think of nothing and just see the ball?
there are many possibilities .
specifically how would a coach use sabermetric info to help cano?
one example would suffice so i can get the idea.
at the moment i’m drawing a blank.
Also, I don’t think JV is going to be THAT good.
Doreen-
My opinion on the question you referred to CB :
You are talking about necessary and sufficient conditions.
Both Sabre and Video(observation) may meet the test of being necessary to aiding the potential improvement but IMO neither is “sufficient” in and of itself.
one example would suffice so i can get the idea.
at the moment i’m drawing a blank.
–
Kevin Long keeping chase% for all hitters, and Cano leading the team in chase% in RISP situations.
LGY-
Now I know I am in trouble when you and I agree.
“Clutch” simply has no widely accepted objective definition. Everyone will have their own version of what “clutch” is.
Using stats, quantifying and qualifying them, allow you to better attack the fundamental aspects of the game.
Without looking at the stats, you could wrongly assume many things that Cano is doing wrong. And end up hurting his development instead of helping him.
It just makes plain ole sense. Even a baseball player can figure it out. As Kevin Long astutely did.
randy l -
Maybe consider that the numbers quantify all those “problems” that Cano is having? You now the problem(s) exist, but how are they manifesting (11% chase rate).
Maybe it’s easier to “fix” or coach a player when you show the numbers and go to the videotape. I would think that perhaps, sometimes, a player is the last to be aware of exactly how poorly he’s performed in some situations? Like, Cano certainly knows he didn’t get hits a lot with RISP. But did he know how much he was swinging and missing? Or did he focus on what a lot of us do (well, what I did), which is that he hit a ton of line drives that just missed falling in?
Just suggesting that the statistics play a role in how one might go about getting a player to make some changes in certain situations.
Technically, the numbers fix nothing. But neither does just watching videotape.
randy l.
February 24th, 2010 at 1:02 pm
“don’t think of sabermetrics as a better way of conditioning,training or making an athlete better”
bru-
that’s precisely my point with long and cano.
i’m saying that sabermetrics has little to do with helping cano get better.
if there is a small thing it helps, i’d seriously like to hear it.
so how important is sabermetrics to the game on the field is it can’t help a player get better?
———————————————————
it probably does not help a player get better but might show where a player can improve
my point is that sabermetrics is a stat(s)
it is to anylize
it is not meant to make a player better.it is to show what a player has done & where he can improve
why would you think someones ops,obp,whip makes a player perform better?
arod’s stats are a result of how good he is not the other way around
MTU -
No, that is where the coaching comes in. It’s three-pronged. You see a problem, you use video and historical (stats) data to qualify and quantify the problem, then you use hands-on coaching to try and rectify the problem.
And I SWEAR I did not get the phrase “qualify and quantify” from Jerkface. I only read his post after I typed mine!
“First, people must start with an acceptable defintion of what clutch is. There does not seem to be an agreed upon defintion of it here.”
does the color “blue” exist?
define it.
some words just apply to things.
there is no definition.
blue:
“Blue is a colour, the perception of which is evoked by light having a spectrum dominated by energy with a wavelength of roughly 440–490 nm. ” – wikepedia
now does that help explain what we see when we see something blue ?
you can’r really define “blue” as much as point it out.
now some people are color blind which would really make it difficult for someone to understand “blue”.
they can understand it’s like “red” but different. but that’s about it.
i think being “clutch” is one of those things like ” blue ” that is hard to define , but easy to see unless you are color blind.
maybe sabermetricians are simply clutch-blind like being colorblind
Doreen
February 24th, 2010 at 1:36 pm
MTU -
No, that is where the coaching comes in. It’s three-pronged. You see a problem, you use video and historical (stats) data to qualify and quantify the problem, then you use hands-on coaching to try and rectify the problem.
——————–
DING DING DING. And we have a winner. You do not have one of the 3 prongs and you have a problem
Another potentially false dichotomy:
Statistics vs observation.
They are both “descriptive”. Stats describe performance thru #’s, and Video describes thru the senses.
Again, they both have value if they are used correctly. One does not supplant the other. They can compliment each other.
Let me offer the possibility that every single person who makes the major leagues is “clutch” in the sense many of you are using it.
If you don’t perform well when the pressures on, you don’t make the majors.
What’s more pressure, being a major league ballplayer up at the plate with the World Series on the line, game tied and a runner on second? Or being a poor kid with 20 scouts sitting in the stands and maybe if you do well you’ll get noticed and drafted? Or being a 29 year old AAA pitcher who never thought he’d get that shot in the Show taking the mound in the majors because of an injury and this is his big chance?
I’d suggest all three are pressure situations, but perhaps the last two are even more “clutch” situations than the first when you think about it.
So it may be, that given how clutch all successful ballplayers are, it’s hard to say whether there’s an “extra” measure of clutch on top.
Are there other free-swingers like Cano who have had trouble in RISP situations?
I was thinking, first, that people are getting caught up in the word “clutch.”
What I think of is this. We want a guy like Jeter, Tex, to come up in certain situations because they are (have been) dependable over the course of their careers.
It would seem logical to assume that the game’s best hitters are, for the most part, going to be the best players to have up in “situations.”
Cano is a good hitter. But he’s hardly a disciplined hitter. So, would it not be surprising that he is having difficulty in situations?
And, I think that situational hitting is a skill than can be coached.
I realize that I am entering the discussion very late, but think that I may have a different perspective on the experience vs. stats argument.
I am an older guy, in my mid 50s. I have been a rabid baseball fan since I was a child, 50 years this season.
I accept that stats can contribute to the valid understanding of many things in life. I have a master’s degree that was heavy in statistics.
However, when it comes to baseball, I choose to ignore most of the newer stats. This is true not because I think that they, across the board, have little to contribute. As sabremetrics are refined, they will get better and better and will become more widely accepted.
I choose to ignore most of the newer stats because they disturb the balance that best meet my needs regarding baseball.
For me, baseball is a passionate romance. I love the sights, sounds, smells, feelings of going to the ballpark. It brings back the innocence of my childhood in a way that nothing else does. It speaks to my soul. That is of paramount importance to me, paramount value.
Stats engage my adult brain in a way that changes the way that I experience the sport, shifting the balance I have honed over a lifetime of how I get my rewards from following baseball. The balance shifts too far from heart to brain, from child to adult. Even though stats might improve my ability to play manager or GM, I prefer, to a large, although not by any means exclusive degree, to remain the kid sitting in the stands.
So, if you get your enjoyment of baseball from statistical analysis, more power to you. I am not smarter than you or dumber. I am not, across the board, unwilling to change, as change brings growth. My needs may be different from yours though. Why change something that has worked for me throughout my life and continues to work today?
lets go yankees -
I would not say you necessarily have a problem with a less-than-three-pronged approach. You could conceivably coach Cano based solely on videotape. You could conceivably coach Cano based on a stat-sheet. Cano could conceivably look at videotape and/or statistics and try to fix things himself, without a coach.
Multi-sensory approaches are generally more effective, for most people.
Doreen you are most correct.
“Maybe it’s easier to “fix” or coach a player when you show the numbers and go to the videotape.”
doreen-
i don’t think stats and number in data bases are sabermetric.
they are just raw numbers.
of course you want all the stats you could get to know what’s happening with cano.
say it comes out he hits 50% less to the opposite field when he has the bases loaded.
that would be me in high school trying to hit a grand slam.
i wouldn’t be trying to just go the other way because it would decrease my chance of a grand salami.
no hits to the opposite fieled would give a clue what i was doing, but the stats that show where the ball goes are not sabremetric stats. they are just stats.
computers can store what seems infinite data of what happens in a game.
i don’t consider that sabermetric, just computer technology.
That is the definition of blue. I can point at a object and say ‘that’s blue’ because the dominant light reflecting off of said object has wavelength of between 440 and 490 nm.
I think it was Tom in NJ that posted an interesting video that dealt with the sabre vs scouting question.
Jim Bowden hosted it. They talked to Theo, Jon Daniels, Dayton Moore and Justin Upton
They all said cited scouting as their primary source of info but said that they do analyze stats to identify any discrepancy.
They used Andrew McCutchen as an example.
And Bowden swore he would have never traded Paul O Neil if he knew Roberto Kelly’s UZR.
http://www.lookoutlanding.com/.....eo-epstein
Doreen-
‘And, I think that situational hitting is a skill than can be coached.”
I agree, depending on how one define’s situational hitting.
However, I think there is a paradox when attempting to teach it to Cano.
It requires “patience”, and patience and aggressiveness are at odds with other.
The Yankees have stated that they want Cano to remain aggressive at the plate. I don’t see how they reconcile the 2.
over at rab it had a breakdown of gardner letting a lot of fasballs go by without swinging
this is where stats might help to change an approach
According to FanGraphs’ plate discipline data, Gardner swung at only 17.2% of the pitches that he saw off the plate. Believe it or not, when compared to eagle-eyed sluggers like Nick Swisher, Mark Teixeira, Alex Rodriguez, and Hideki Matsui, Gardner actually swung at fewer pitches outside of the zone than any other player on the Yankees. Interestingly though, while Gardner did not swing at balls, he also did not swing at many strikes. Last season, the speedy outfielder swung at 50.7% of the pitches thrown to him that were in the strike zone (the team average was 64.6%). The percentage stands as the lowest in-the-zone swing mark of any Yankee last season. All in all, Gardner swung at 34% of the pitches he saw, which was, again, the lowest percentage of all the club’s hitters…
In addition, when actually swinging at pitches that were either in or out of the strike zone, in 2009, Gardner was actually very good at making contact. When swinging at a ball, the left/center fielder was rather Cano-esque, making contact 75.5% of the time. Furthermore, when swinging at a strike, Gardner made contact 91.9% of the time.
Borrowing from Justice Stewart’s take on something that may not make it through the filter; to relate it to clutch.
“I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it”
How is a second basemen like Cano that hit 25HR, 85RBI, hit .320, and had the 3rd most total bases in the AL have the words “troubles”, “problems”, and “struggles” associated to him? Forget all the ridiculous geek saber stats, Robbie can stick with anyone in the league. Because he had a bad year hitting with RISP? Come on, what are you analizng? The team scored almost 900 runs and won the World Series even with his struggles?
Robbie is going to dominate again this year just like he did last year.
lets go yankees
February 24th, 2010 at 12:54 pm
I agree with you basically. But the power of repetitive words are that people tend to agree with them over time. (See ESPN for Red Sox Nations.)
I truly don’t think that Cash Money would say Gardner stinks in CF even if he did. That said, Granderson makes sense in CF as next year Gardner will most likely be gone or relegated to a backup position. I actually think he will be one this year, but that is just my opinion.
Look at it this way. Who would you rather have come to the plate with the game on the line…Jeter or ARod?
Most people would pick Jeter in this debate. Why? Because he has a better track record of getting important hits. Since ARod is obviously a more talented hitter, wouldn’t your decision to pick Jeter be based on “clutchness?”
I would pick A-Rod to hit rather than Jeter. The simplest rule is to take the better hitter and that is Alex.
“i think being “clutch” is one of those things like ” blue ” that is hard to define , but easy to see unless you are color blind.”
But Randy, you’ve already defined it, very specifically.
This is classic you. You defined it very specifically last night, with all the blustery, self-assured confidence that is your wont.
Then people poked holes in your definition and you’re now saying it’s undefinable, just as baseball once became “music”.
randy l -
I think this is the crux of the matter?
What numbers are considered collective data that are useful to the game of baseball, versus, what are sabremetric formulas that may or may not be useful to the game played on the field, but do have value on the business end?
Or is sabremetrics a field of statistical analysis as applied to baseball, with more of an academic than practical nature, in general?
Alert :
The only hope for the Planet is to find a commonly agreed upon definition of “clutch”.
We’re gonna need it !
This blog is not fun today
I Like Inge -
I think it is precisely because Cano is so good in general that the question arises why was there such a drop off with RISP, mostly on 2nd?
It seems like a guy who hits over .300 all the time should at least approach that number in those situations? So, it’s natural to want to know what is he doing differently, or maybe how is he being pitched to differently (if that’s the case) at those times?
For me, it’s a curiousity more than a criticism.
And RISP is not tell-all to me, anyway. I don’t know the numbers, so don’t jump on me, but a guy who drives in a runner from first does not get credit for hitting with RISP, yet, he had to get, probably a double to do so, and he gets an RBI.
“Look at it this way. Who would you rather have come to the plate with the game on the line…Jeter or ARod?”
Depends on what you want the outcome of the AB to be.
Some metrics are quite obvious!! LOL! Cano chased more bad pitches with RISP. Well, yes he was pressing and got into a pattern of trying to produce last year. He has always been a free swinger, but I don’t think he had those RISP issues prior to 2009. Cano hit a lot of balls very hard directly at a defender last year. (My memory reinforced by Joe G’s comments.) After quite a few of these, Cano must have felt jinxed and perhaps pressed even more. I believe he will have a breakout year this year.
.340 BA, 35 Hrs, 120 RBIs, 200+ hits, .410 OBP.
A player like Adam Dunn could be viewed as a player who misses a lot of pitches!! LOL! Well, yeah!! He strikes out a whole lot, but he is still a valuable hitter.
MTU -
I agree. Cano is a special case, no?
“I realize that I am entering the discussion very late, but think that I may have a different perspective on the experience vs. stats argument.”
ed h-
great post.
one of the reasons i risk annoying people by being involved in this debate is a post like yours.
i have been saying all along that “old school” is not equivalent to being dumb or having a low IQ. last night i was lumped in with “yahoos” sitting at a sports bar. that’s the perception that many sabermetric people have of us.
there are a variety of reason not to get into sabermetrics even when one has the ability to do so.
your post perfectly and eloquently shows one of those reasons.
it would be great if you’d jump in more often.
RISP is not clutch, it’s a very poor approximation.
What’s a bigger clutch situation:
Runners on second and third, 2 outs, your team leading 10-2 in the seventh? or
Nobody on, nobody out, top of the ninth, game tied?
The answer is obvious.
Erica
Look at pictures. They’re fun.
http://www3.daylife.com/search.....?q=yankees
Randy,
Correct me if I am wrong but it is not the stats that you object to but the interpretation by sabermetric and the attitude that goes with it?
Last year I felt like I was actually at spring training with all of the updates, audio, pics, etc. Now I feel so uninformed
“What numbers are considered collective data that are useful to the game of baseball, versus, what are sabremetric formulas that may or may not be useful to the game played on the field, but do have value on the business end?”
doreen-
bingo.
i personally really need someone like CB who understands it to tell me where collective data stops and where sabermetric data from sabermetric formulas starts.
i think this line is an important distinction.
Clutch may not actually exist however I think the tendency to be clutch may exist. I would think that would be measurable in specific situations like runner on 3 or in scoring, bases loaded.
Comparing I think an idividuals stats in specific situations could be a measure of tendency to be clutch in said situations over a career. Measure a league average against an individual in said circumstances would lend cred to clutch existing in specific situations for specific players. Dunno just using wags theorem.
Erica – always OPPC
February 24th, 2010 at 2:01 pm
This blog is not fun today
Statistically speaking we were due for a down day!! LOL! Hopefully, you won’t leave us as I enjoy your posts!!
Doreen-
He represents a bit of a paradox.
If they would like him to be a “situational” hitter his approach @ the plate will have to change with the situation which means he can’t be aggressive in all of those situations,i.e always tend to swing early in the count.
Was Rod Carew a “free swinger”, and if he was did he have the same perceived issues w runners on as Cano ?
Many have said that they thought Cano reminds of Carew.
Besides their last names begin w the same letter.
According to espn.com headline, “Jeter wants to remain a Yankee”. Oh really? What a surprise. I thought maybe he wanted to go to Detroit or something
Was Roger here yesterday wanting to wager on a gold medal for the Netherlands? Anyone know what he was talking about?
I heard a curious story on local radio this morning about the national hero of speed skating was on his way to gold in the 10,000 m, but his coach directed him to the wrong lane. He skated the last 6 laps in the wrong lane and was DQ’ed. Poor guy looked up in the stands expecting a big smile from his girlfriend, only to see her face buried in her hands.
Here’s a photo depicting a play that most of us have never seen.
Nor do we wish to.
http://www3.daylife.com/photo/.....?q=yankees
Listen people regarding Cano’s “problems” hitting with r.i.s.p. are recent and not a career long problem.
in ’06 he hit .306 w/r.i.s.p. and drove in 97rbis from the 9 hole…he also hit .342 that season
in ’07 he hit like .290-295 w/r.i.s.p.
these things can fluctuate from year to year for all players
ex. ’06 ARod hit like .235 w/r.i.s.p. if my memory serves me correct and ’07 ARod hit over .300 w/r.i.s.p. and drove in 150+ rbis and then tore up his contract
Cano clearly was pressing in the situation last yr and it got in his head and snowballed. I however believe that last year was the anamoly and not the norm for him.
As a general area of his continued growth as a player Robbie needs to be more selective at the plate and as Long said make the pitcher have to give into him.When he does that then he will have HanRam type #’s annually and challenge Mauer for batting titles while hitting 30+ homers establishing himself as the best 2b in the game.
pat
February 24th, 2010 at 2:05 pm
Erica
Look at pictures. They’re fun.
http://www3.daylife.com/search…..?q=yankees
***********
Ooo- that was fun!!! Thank you. I miss the boys!
http://www.daylife.com/photo/02axbQ7fPy6NP
If you watch Cano in RISP situations he seems to get into situations where he quickly has two strikes on him. Then takes a pitch or two or fouls a couple off and then gets nailed on a pitch down and in, usually a breaking pitch. I don’t see more than 50 games a year all on TV but that’s my obsevation from a limited sample size.
Jose,
Glad you’re here. I wanted to tell you that you made a really offensive sexist remark yesterday.
Bronx Jeers
February 24th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
Here’s a photo depicting a play that most of us have never seen.
Nor do we wish to.
http://www3.daylife.com/photo/…..?q=yankees
*************
Can you imagine the LoHud riot if A-Rod ever bunted. LOL
Sadly, his bunting abilities will never be the same as GGBG. Cause according to McCarver, he is among the best bunters in the AL
Jeers
I laughed the first time I saw him do that during BP.
I hope Jorge ‘El Destructor’ Vazquez will get a shot on the bench! He is ready, a monster. He is like Matsui. He has done everything in his country. He was a superstar. Gatorade ads, all that. He will be a huge asset. Tremendous power to all fields. I know not great, but playable at 1b, 3b, corner OF. His bat is worth it!!!!! Aceves was no one compared to Jorge in Mexico!! Jorge will hit for higher average and much more power than Miranda.
Biography:
Is a 10-year veteran of the Mexican League, recording at least a .300 average and 15 HR in each of the last five seasons (2004-08). … Led the league in slugging percentage (.796) and ranked second in homers (33) in 2005 in 71g. … Also led the league in slugging (.739) and second in homers (31) in 2006 in 75g…… Was a member of the 2000 and ‘01 Mexican League championship teams. …Was a member of Team Mexico for World Baseball Classic……Signed by the New York Yankees as a free agent on Dec. 7, 2008.
Highlights: 2005
Batted .379 with 33 home runs and 96 RBIs in 71 games with Angelopolis-AAA Mex Lg.
Highlights: 2008
Played for the Tigres de Quintana Roo of the Mexican League, batting .339 with 30 R, 7 doubles, 18 HR and 59 RBIs in 56 games. … Hit safely in 17 straight games from May 18-June 11, batting .431 (31-for-72) with 1 double, 10 HR and 25 RBIs during the stretch, including a season-high 3 HR and 5 RBIs on June 7 at Saltillo. … Recorded a hit in 25-of-26 games from May 18-July 2 (game 1), going 43-for-109 (.394) over the span. … Played for the Tomateros de Culiacan of the Mexican Pacific League following the season, leading the league in slugging percentage (.636), ranking second in batting average (.348), homers (15) and extra-base hits (27), placing third in on-base percentage (.416) and ranking fifth in RBIs (46).
Highlights: 2009
Spent his first season in the Yankees organization with Double-A Trenton. …In debut hit a two-run home run and had 4rbi’s…. Was EL All-Star placing 3rd in the league in avg(.332), 5th in HR(13), 7th in RBI(55) and 1st in SLG (.584) while only playing in 56 out of the leagues 91g at the break…For the week of June 21-27 hit .560 (14-for-25) with 3 HR and 9 RBI….With RISP batted .394 w/ 6 HR, 43 RBI and 1.134 OPS…. Had 21multi-hit games, including five three or more-hit games. … Had 14 multi-RBI games with four RBI in a game three times…Was on team Mexico for World Baseball Classic. Hit a grand slam in first WBC at bat, batting .294 with 1HR, 5runs and 5RBI’s in 5games.
If you want to check it out, you can see Jorge’s mammoth WBC grand slam on his profile page on Yankees.com when you click his name. It landed above the tunnell.
champ, go back and look at Cano’s numbers again. Don’t just focus on RISP, compare how he hits with RISP, with runners on and with bases empty in each year he has played.
Don’t just focus on BA, you have to focus on SLG as well and also OBP.
Barring 2007, I think you will find a pattern.
pat -
Those pictures WERE fun. Love Jeter’s expressions! And, boy, Alex and Derek sure look nice, don’t they? I mean, they’re in great shape! Does Alex have any body fat at all?????
M,
I did?? I don’t remember this?
RayVT
February 24th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
Erica – always OPPC
February 24th, 2010 at 2:01 pm
This blog is not fun today
Statistically speaking we were due for a down day!! LOL! Hopefully, you won’t leave us as I enjoy your posts!!
*************
Hmm- what stats are these? Normal boxscores or sabremetrics? LOL
Don’t worry, I am not going anywhere. I am just so bored at my client site and I am not getting my normal fill of blog entertainment. I just needed to complain a little
New post.
M,
That’s Sven Kramer who is a major national sports hero over there.
I was kind of disappointed as I believe he was quoted as saying” It’s an expensive mistake” in an apparent reference to the money he’ll lose by not winning the medal.
I’d be upset as well but I wouldn’t make it public that the money was my first concern. That’s certainly not the olympic spirit.
Or is it?
I guess you didn’t realize it, but you compared Pete to Chad, saying it’s like getting it 6 times a day, then “only” twice?
First, it was gross.
Second, lots of “gals” here.
I want to make a funny comment back to you, but the Terms of Service prohibit me from doing so.
Jose
February 24th, 2010 at 1:53 pm
Look at it this way. Who would you rather have come to the plate with the game on the line…Jeter or ARod?
Most people would pick Jeter in this debate. Why? Because he has a better track record of getting important hits. Since ARod is obviously a more talented hitter, wouldn’t your decision to pick Jeter be based on “clutchness?”
——————————–
I think most “fans” would pick Jeter. But that does not mean it would be the right choice, because it depends on the situation.
-Down by 1 run and 2 outs in the 9th, I want Alex because he has much more power (cough cough Joe Nathan).
-2nd and 3rd down by one run, I want Jeter because he is a higher average hitter.
-bases loaded, I want Alex because he has the higher career OBP.
etc.
Vazquez does have a sick bat! I’d like the Yanks to be proactive with him as far as improving his conditioning by assigning him a trainer to improve his stamina and footwork.
maybe hook him up with a nutritionist as well.
I’d recommend the Yanks have Montero use pilates and light ballet as well to improve his flexibilty and footwork/agility.
“This blog is not fun today”
sorry sasquatch-
nick in sf was up late last night taking a semi neutral part in our debate.
when he gets up things will be funnier.
“sasquatch” is a term of affection