The LoHud Yankees Blog

A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Changeups, lots of them

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Feb 26, 2010 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Hughes

Both Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain were in the mood for joking around this afternoon.

Hughes pitched first this afternoon, then he stood outside the cage to watch Chamberlain’s batting practice session. He was waiting for Chamberlain so the two could do their running together, but Hughes said he would be fine with everyone writing that he was actually there to size up the competition.

“I’ll roll with that if you want me to,” Hughes said.

As for Chamberlain, he was happy with his work today, but he seemed to enjoy being asked about the slider that almost hit Jorge Posada.

“Don’t take so many swings off me so early,” Chamberlain said.

Here’s the audio from those two. You’ll hear both Chamberlain and Hughes talk about throwing a lot of changeups today. That’s a pitch that needs some hitter reactions to get a good gauge of how well it’s working.

First Chamberlain.

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Then Hughes.

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143 Responses to “Changeups, lots of them”

  1. crawdaddy February 26th, 2010 at 2:43 pm

    Francesa just stated that Montero won’t catch in the major leagues. However, then he amended his comment with “from what I’ve been told” which means he doesn’t know what he’s talking about and has no idea what Montero looks like.

  2. NYY626 February 26th, 2010 at 2:43 pm

    GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 2:40 pm

    Erin
    February 26th, 2010 at 2:37 pm
    Now we’re talking:

    BryanHoch http://twitpic.com/15h6w0 – Robinson Cano gets in position 10 minutes ago

    ————————————————————

    I hope that Cano makes the team out of spring training. He could really help the team, even if it’s as a utility player.
    ______________________________________________________________
    Haha that was mean GB!

  3. Tollan February 26th, 2010 at 2:44 pm

    Seeing him standing next to Tony Pena you realize that Jesus is a big man

    http://twitpic.com/15h74w

  4. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day February 26th, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    LOL Francesca makes these pronouncements as if he’s some special authority on all things baseball. In general, the more and louder he pronounces something, the more wrong he is. I seriously doubt Mike knows Montero from Montezuma.

  5. Phil the Thrill February 26th, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    Phil’s circle change had really been coming along when he got hurt throwing the no-hitter. He K’d Tex with three of them in a row during that game. Since he came back for the injuries he hasn’t used it as much, and then he switched it to the split grip last year and didn’t use that one either. When Joba and Phil get a little older I hope they both add a splitter. It did wonders for Clemens and Smoltz, and they didn’t start out with them, either.

  6. saucY February 26th, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    crawdaddy
    February 26th, 2010 at 2:43 pm
    Francesa just stated that Montero won’t catch in the major leagues. However, then he amended his comment with “from what I’ve been told” which means he doesn’t know what he’s talking about and has no idea what Montero looks like.

    ———

    i’m guessing he’s heard a little of both opinions, but chooses to spout the more negative one :|

  7. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day February 26th, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    LOL Phil is a funny kid…

    We should call this Camp Change-up as Joba, Phil, AJ and Robertson seem to be quite interested in “this stupid thing” (I think that’s how D-Rob referred to it)

  8. Erin February 26th, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 2:40 pm

    Erin
    February 26th, 2010 at 2:37 pm
    Now we’re talking:

    BryanHoch http://twitpic.com/15h6w0 – Robinson Cano gets in position 10 minutes ago

    ————————————————————

    I hope that Cano makes the team out of spring training. He could really help the team, even if it’s as a utility player.

    ***********************
    You enjoy torturing me, don’t you? ;)

  9. Erin February 26th, 2010 at 2:48 pm

    NYY626
    February 26th, 2010 at 2:43 pm

    I hope that Cano makes the team out of spring training. He could really help the team, even if it’s as a utility player.
    ______________________________________________________________
    Haha that was mean GB!

    **********************
    I should have known better. He told me the other day it was National Pick on Erin week. lol

  10. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day February 26th, 2010 at 2:49 pm

    Chad, how’d Phil feel about his session? Thanks – and thanks for the great info!

  11. Frank February 26th, 2010 at 2:49 pm

    “Francesa just stated that Montero won’t catch in the major leagues. However, then he amended his comment with “from what I’ve been told” which means he doesn’t know what he’s talking about and has no idea what Montero looks like.”

    That’s SOP for Francessa. When he’s not sure of something, he’ll glom on to the most prevalent viewpoint.

  12. Carl February 26th, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    Betsy – Romine wasn’t built in a day February 26th, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    LOL Phil is a funny kid…

    We should call this Camp Change-up as Joba, Phil, AJ and Robertson seem to be quite interested in “this stupid thing” (I think that’s how D-Rob referred to it)

    I think after what CC showed with his change, Dave Eiland probably wants all his starters for the most part throwing one.

  13. stuckey February 26th, 2010 at 2:52 pm

    Mike Francesa happens to be on the radio. What difference does anything he says make? (this goes equally for things we agree with).

  14. GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 2:55 pm

    Erin
    February 26th, 2010 at 2:47 pm
    GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 2:40 pm

    Erin
    February 26th, 2010 at 2:37 pm
    Now we’re talking:

    BryanHoch http://twitpic.com/15h6w0 – Robinson Cano gets in position 10 minutes ago

    ————————————————————

    I hope that Cano makes the team out of spring training. He could really help the team, even if it’s as a utility player.

    ***********************
    You enjoy torturing me, don’t you?

    ————————————————————

    I decided to play the part of the “intelligent” posters that prefer to talk about what he “can’t do” as opposed to what he can. They talk about him not hitting with RISP, but, only look at the two seasons that he didn’t. Even in his worst season (2008) that average was just 6 points below his overall season. Cano has no patterns. One year he hits great at night, but not in the day time and the next year, it’s reversed. Home and aways are much the same way. I defy anybody to exlain why. Whatever, there’s only one 2nd baseman I’d rather have had on the Yankees last year and that’s Aaron Hill, and that’s just based on one career season.

  15. Frank February 26th, 2010 at 2:57 pm

    “Whatever, there’s only one 2nd baseman I’d rather have had on the Yankees last year and that’s Aaron Hill, and that’s just based on one career season.”

    Utley???

  16. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day February 26th, 2010 at 3:00 pm

    That could be it, Carl……..a nice side benefit of having CC on the team. AJ could work with CC now…

  17. Carl February 26th, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    Betsy,

    I’m sure you seen this, but for everyone who hasn’t, AJ has been working out with his friend Arthur Rhodes on his change.

    http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde.....ked_o.html

  18. GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    Frank
    February 26th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
    “Whatever, there’s only one 2nd baseman I’d rather have had on the Yankees last year and that’s Aaron Hill, and that’s just based on one career season.”

    Utley???

    ————————————————————

    Not at his age and paycheck. and, this year that paycheck is $15 mil

  19. upstate kate February 26th, 2010 at 3:04 pm

    thanks for the audio…Phil and Joba sound relaxed, w/ a good attitude…I really would like to see both of them as starters

  20. Erin February 26th, 2010 at 3:05 pm

    GreenBeret7
    February 26th, 2010 at 2:55 pm

    I decided to play the part of the “intelligent” posters that prefer to talk about what he “can’t do” as opposed to what he can. They talk about him not hitting with RISP, but, only look at the two seasons that he didn’t. Even in his worst season (2008) that average was just 6 points below his overall season. Cano has no patterns. One year he hits great at night, but not in the day time and the next year, it’s reversed. Home and aways are much the same way. I defy anybody to exlain why. Whatever, there’s only one 2nd baseman I’d rather have had on the Yankees last year and that’s Aaron Hill, and that’s just based on one career season.

    **********************
    Oh, I see. :)

  21. Jerkface February 26th, 2010 at 3:08 pm

    Not at his age and paycheck. and, this year that paycheck is $15 mil

    But you said last year?

    I’d take Utley on the yankees even going forward, but Cano is a great consolation prize.

  22. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 3:12 pm

    Utley is worth well more than 15 million. He is one of the best players in baseball right now.

    Cano is not making chump change anymore either and he only keeps getting more expensive over the next few years (not saying he is not worth that money)

  23. Frank February 26th, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    “Not at his age and paycheck. and, this year that paycheck is $15 mil”

    Guess if bang for the buck is the tipping point, Hill’s $4M gets the prize…..unless we start counting Zobrist as a 2B this year.

  24. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    Both are signed through 2013.

    Utley: 4 years/60 million

    Cano: 4 years/48 million

    Utley should be worth that extra 12 million over the next 4 years.

  25. NYYROC February 26th, 2010 at 3:16 pm

    Chad, Thank you for all the info, pix and audio! Except for the 2 feet of snow outside, I feel like I’m there! :)

  26. Pat M. February 26th, 2010 at 3:18 pm

    GB, Glad you’re here….Last night Jerkface posted some interesting stats on scoring from 1st base on doubles….Graderson lifetime scores an alarming rate of 60 % on 2 baggers from 1st base…..Now much has been made of Nick Johnson and his .400 on base % and Curtis’s .345…So in the course of a season ( 500 ab’s ) Nick will see 1stbase roughly 26 times more than Curtis, although that number will be less because Granderson will leg out at least 10 dp balls…..Now basing on the fact that Granderson scores 60 % of the time on doubles compared to Jonhson’s 30 % and Texeria & Alex will hit 80 doubles between them, that equates to a + 24 runs scored for Curtis……Then when you factor in stolen bases, and the overall baserunning speed and power than Granderson has by a large margin, I cannot see why so many are dead against hiom in the 2 hole….Besides whe you factor in totale bases ( + 41 Curtis ) runs scored ( + 19 Curtis ) why is there even a conversation…..These are based on full season projections, which is hard to do because of Johnson’s injuries….Granderson will hit 2nd & play CF

  27. Jerkface February 26th, 2010 at 3:21 pm

    Just because Nick Johnson doesn’t score from 1st doesn’t mean he will never score.

  28. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 3:22 pm

    Now basing on the fact that Granderson scores 60 % of the time on doubles compared to Jonhson’s 30 % and Texeria & Alex will hit 80 doubles between them, that equates to a + 24 runs scored for Curtis

    ————————

    This only applies if EVERYTIME Tex or A-Rod hit a double BOTH NJ or Granderson would be standing on first.

  29. m February 26th, 2010 at 3:23 pm

    How often does Jorge score from 1st? :P

    Anyway, I think that Granderson’s issues against lefties are the biggest hurdle to him hitting 2nd. Or maybe Nick Johnson’s the biggest obstacle.

  30. tk February 26th, 2010 at 3:24 pm

    “They talk about him not hitting with RISP, but, only look at the two seasons that he didn’t. Even in his worst season (2008) that average was just 6 points below his overall season. Cano has no patterns.”

    GB7,

    I wouldn’t entirely dismiss Cano’s past struggles hitting with men on base…this may or may not be an issue in the future, but it clearly has been in the past. If you compare RISP against his overall average it kind of clouds the picture, because the poor hitting w/ RISP has already pulled his overall average down. Consider the difference in 2008–instead of seeing .263 (RISP) and .271 (AVG), you see .263 (RISP) vs. .291 (Empty). Check out his career numbers (about 3,000 plate appearances) with the bases empty, men on base, and RISP:

    Empty: .331/.363/.528/.892
    Men on: .280/.312/.425/.737
    RISP: .256/.291/.398/.689

  31. Fran (the original) and OPPC member February 26th, 2010 at 3:25 pm

    How often does Jorge score from 1st?
    **********************
    m,

    When the player batting behind him hits a HR.

  32. Frank February 26th, 2010 at 3:25 pm

    Kiprusoff has become unglued for the Finns. 4-0 USA

  33. GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 3:26 pm

    Frank
    February 26th, 2010 at 3:15 pm
    “Not at his age and paycheck. and, this year that paycheck is $15 mil”

    Guess if bang for the buck is the tipping point, Hill’s $4M gets the prize…..unless we start counting Zobrist as a 2B this year.

    ————————————————————

    The difference for me isn’t just the money, though I just said that the $15 mil was for 2010. It also the age difference and the fact that Utley and Hill hit at the top of the line-up and Cano does his damage at the tailend of the line-up. He’d be putting up huge numbers with Teixeira, Rodriguez and Posada in behind him, too, like Utley has Howard, Ibanez and Werth trailing him. Even Hill has mashers following him.

  34. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 3:26 pm

    “runs scored ( + 19 Curtis ) why is there even a conversation…”

    —————————–

    Granderson played 30 more games than NJ last season.

    In 2009, NJ scored 1.87 runs per game.

    In 2009, Grandy scored 1.76 runs per game.

  35. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 3:27 pm

    Wow, my bad with the math there.

    NJ scored .53 runs per game.

    Granderson scored .57 runs per game.

  36. Erin February 26th, 2010 at 3:28 pm

    Fran (the original) and OPPC member
    February 26th, 2010 at 3:25 pm
    How often does Jorge score from 1st?
    **********************
    m,

    When the player batting behind him hits a HR.

    *************************
    LOL

  37. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Montero Fanaticus Primus February 26th, 2010 at 3:28 pm

    Allo, apparently some of you have been asking after me?

    I’m still here, read more than I comment. You can find me more often on Twitter or over at RAB, if not my own site.

    Hope you guys are doing well; I’m headed down to see the Cardinals and Marlins next Saturday and can’t wait–I’ve never been to Spring Training before!

    Cheers!

  38. raymagnetic February 26th, 2010 at 3:28 pm

    “Utley should be worth that extra 12 million over the next 4 years.”

    so fangraphs has already informed you that Utley will be worth 12 million more than Cano over the next 4 years? Alrighty then.

  39. m February 26th, 2010 at 3:28 pm

    Fran,

    That’s just plain mean. :P

    Are you snowed in?

  40. Carl February 26th, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    6-0 jesus

  41. Erin February 26th, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    BloggingBombers Just an FYI … turns out @suzyn_waldman is a fake. She isn’t on Twitter. 7 minutes ago

  42. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 3:30 pm

    raymagnetic,

    I took the fangraphs data and plugged it into my supercomputer and figured it out.

    It has nothing to do with Utley being a much better player than Cano thus far in his career offensively and defensively.

  43. Jerkface February 26th, 2010 at 3:31 pm

    Also A-rod and Tex might hit 80 doubles, but they could always hit back to back doubles, or any combination of single-double, double-double, hr-double, that negates the second double in terms of scoring the runner from first (being NJ or Granderson).

  44. m February 26th, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    Why are you guys talking about Utley?

  45. Pat M. February 26th, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    Rebecca, You must have recieved my comment, hope once the season starts, you’ll be including us with your insights….

  46. Erica - always OPPC February 26th, 2010 at 3:33 pm

    Erin
    February 26th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
    BloggingBombers Just an FYI … turns out @suzyn_waldman is a fake. She isn’t on Twitter. 7 minutes ago
    ***********

    oh goodness gracious! ;-)

  47. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 3:33 pm

    Now much has been made of Nick Johnson and his .400 on base % and Curtis’s .345…So in the course of a season ( 500 ab’s ) Nick will see 1stbase roughly 26 times more than Curtis, although that number will be less because Granderson will leg out at least 10 dp balls

    ——————————

    You are taking what would be the low end for NJ. His average OBP over 2009, 2006, and 2005 was over .420.

  48. Frank February 26th, 2010 at 3:33 pm

    “Even Hill has mashers following him.”

    I though he had Rios and Wells following him.

  49. Fran (the original) and OPPC member February 26th, 2010 at 3:34 pm

    m,

    Maybe mean, but true ;)

    Snowed in. Over 15″ on the ground and it is still snowing but not as hard. Expecting another few inches. Supposed to stop sometime this weekend. To make me feel really bad, what is the temperature there?

  50. Jerkface February 26th, 2010 at 3:34 pm

    GB7 said he wouldn’t take Utley over Cano, which I think isnt the worst statement you could make regarding the two, but its still alittle devisive.

    Also I dunno if A-rod + Tex will end up with 80 doubles, closer to 65-70 doubles. A-rod hasnt hit 40 doubles in a long time.

  51. GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 3:35 pm

    Pat M.
    February 26th, 2010 at 3:18 pm
    GB, Glad you’re here….Last night Jerkface posted some interesting stats on scoring from 1st base on doubles….Graderson lifetime scores an alarming rate of 60 % on 2 baggers from 1st base…..Now much has been made of Nick Johnson and his .400 on base % and Curtis’s .345…So in the course of a season ( 500 ab’s ) Nick will see 1stbase roughly 26 times more than Curtis, although that number will be less because Granderson will leg out at least 10 dp balls…..Now basing on the fact that Granderson scores 60 % of the time on doubles compared to Jonhson’s 30 % and Texeria & Alex will hit 80 doubles between them, that equates to a + 24 runs scored for Curtis……Then when you factor in stolen bases, and the overall baserunning speed and power than Granderson has by a large margin, I cannot see why so many are dead against hiom in the 2 hole….Besides whe you factor in totale bases ( + 41 Curtis ) runs scored ( + 19 Curtis ) why is there even a conversation…..These are based on full season projections, which is hard to do because of Johnson’s injuries….Granderson will hit 2nd & play CF

    ————————————————————

    Thanks, Pat. I read that this morning. Interesting. I’d put Teixeira/Rodriguez at around 70-75 doubles, but, remember that Posada or Cano in the #5 slot also adds 30/45 doubles that would score him from first. There’s going to be a lot of extra base hits this year. I like Granderson in #2 because of an instant two runs and the speed. If he can’t do the job there, fine…move him down, but, give him about 45 games to prove it one way or the other. If everyone stays healthy and at or near their norms, NYYs are going to set som team records in everything but triples.

  52. Fran (the original) and OPPC member February 26th, 2010 at 3:36 pm

    Erica and Erin,

    Just read that Elmo will be a guest on the Wendy Williams show on Monday. Might want to set your DVRs.

  53. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 3:37 pm

    ray,

    I also said Utley should. It is obviously not set in stone. Too many variables like injuries for example.

  54. GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 3:38 pm

    lets go yankees
    February 26th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
    “runs scored ( + 19 Curtis ) why is there even a conversation…”

    —————————–

    Granderson played 30 more games than NJ last season.

    In 2009, NJ scored 1.87 runs per game.

    In 2009, Grandy scored 1.76 runs per game.

    ————————————————————

    Again, you’re playing a game of ifs and percentages. I’ll take the player that actually stays on the field long enough to do it. I’d bet on Granderson staying more healthy than Johnson does.

  55. Pat M. February 26th, 2010 at 3:39 pm

    Lets go Yanks, my point is that Granderson is a run producing anaimal, and he’d be wasted hitting lower in the lineup….The name of the game is run production, and he has more ways of achieving this than Nick Johnson….Foe the 25 less times he’ll reach base in the course of the season, he’ll score more, drive in more, and is a constant threat to cross home plate more often and with more versatility….He’s not a station to station , base to base type of player……I don’t care about worps, wops, vorps, all I care about is scoring runs and helping the club score runs in any fashion and manner…..Curtis does this ….He’s a defense’s worst nightmare when on base……Think 30-30, that still has to mean something ????

  56. Erin February 26th, 2010 at 3:39 pm

    This cracked me up: RiverAveBlues FYI: @bloggingbombers is reporting that @suzyn_waldman is a fake. Damn. That had more potential than Ozzie Guillen. 2 minutes ago

  57. Erin February 26th, 2010 at 3:40 pm

    Fran (the original) and OPPC member
    February 26th, 2010 at 3:36 pm
    Erica and Erin,

    Just read that Elmo will be a guest on the Wendy Williams show on Monday. Might want to set your DVRs.

    *******************
    Thanks Fran!! I just wrote myself a note so I remember to set my DVR when I get home! :)

  58. GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 3:41 pm

    m
    February 26th, 2010 at 3:32 pm
    Why are you guys talking about Utley?

    ————————————————————

    Because I said that the only 2nd baseman that I’d take over Cano was Aaron Hill. I guess I’m being accused of insulting Utley.

  59. Jerkface February 26th, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    NJ gets on base like 35 more times than Curtis Granderson in a season and thats with Baseball-Reference giving Granderson an extra 40+ PA because Granderson has been on better offenses recently than Nick.

  60. Jim The VT Yankeefan February 26th, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    Just got back from the Yankees work out. Phil was pitching right next to AJ in the bullpen. Everyone watching agreed that Phil was throwing harder than AJ. He certainly seemed to be throwing harder than I remember seeing.

    Gardy, Granderson and Winn all stayed late to do bunting practice. Gardner looked like he was trying (successfully) to put everything down the third base line.

    On a personal note my son got a Reggie Jackson autograph on the ball he brought. Yeah for little Jim.

  61. m February 26th, 2010 at 3:44 pm

    Well, I think that GB7′s allowed his opinion.

    Personally, I would take Cano. But that’s because I’ve watched him grow as a player.

    I don’t think fans base their preferences on what values are assigned to particular players.

    If Cano was a dog or a bad player, I would look for the next 2B. But he’s doing a good job so far, and is at least trying to address his weaknesses.

  62. tk February 26th, 2010 at 3:45 pm

    “GB7 said he wouldn’t take Utley over Cano, which I think isnt the worst statement you could make regarding the two, but its still alittle devisive.”

    I think that’s a good way to put it. Since Cano is entering his prime and Utley is exiting his, I think there is room for healthy debate. Essentially, I guess it comes down to how much a person thinks Cano will improve and/or how rapidly Utley will decline. I look at it like over the next couple of years I would take Utley hands down, 3-4 years would be close, 5+ years would go to Cano. Whichever way you look at it, one shouldn’t lose sight of the fact these guys are elite second basemen.

    We’re all familiar with Cano, so I want to point out that Utley has .OPS’d over .900 for the past 5 years and played great defense. That isn’t to say he will continue that, or that Cano won’t have a comparable stretch going forward, but that period of performance has been truly historic for a 2B and I’m glad to have seen it.

  63. Erin February 26th, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    Ledger_Yankees Former NY Yankees Eric Hinske adds a little bit of color during offseason http://bit.ly/dnnJMR 57 seconds ago

  64. Frank February 26th, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    Utley is exiting his prime??? At age 31?

  65. m February 26th, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    Oops, I guess I was trying to say that neither Hill nor Utley is an option right now…

  66. GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 3:48 pm

    Jerkface
    February 26th, 2010 at 3:44 pm
    NJ gets on base like 35 more times than Curtis Granderson in a season and thats with Baseball-Reference giving Granderson an extra 40+ PA because Granderson has been on better offenses recently than Nick.

    ————————————————————

    Except that’s based on both players getting into 162 games each. Given their histories, which one is more likely to get clos to that.

  67. NYYROC February 26th, 2010 at 3:49 pm

    Jim the VT, Thanks for the info! Always good to hear from someone who is there!

  68. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 3:51 pm

    Pat,

    Curtis may have more “tools” to score runs, but that does not mean he will score more runs. The reason the Yankees are putting NJ in the 2 hole is because they expect NJ to score more runs. The difference in speed usually does not make up such a large difference in OBP. And, for the scoring from 1st thing to matter you actually have to be on 1st base followed by a double. The difference in runs based on that is not going to be anywhere close to 24, because of NJ will have much more opportunities than Granderson to score from first on a double.

    Granderson has also never stolen 30 bases in his career.

    Hitting behind Jeter who has a great OBP, means that a lot of the times he is standing on first after a single or BB Jeter is going to be standing on 2nd. With Tex and A-Rod coming up they are not going to risk very often stealing. Damon only had 12 steals last year. It would be very surprising if Granderson stole 30 bases in this lineup especially hitting 2nd.

  69. Fran (the original) and OPPC member February 26th, 2010 at 3:51 pm

    Jim,

    That’s really cool for your son. Thanks for the update.

  70. Pat M. February 26th, 2010 at 3:52 pm

    GB, That number will norrow due to Granderson’s ability to beat out double plays / fielder choice…..All I’m saying for an additional 25 more trips to 1st base, you sacrifice all the other elements that scores runs for the club….

  71. Erica - always OPPC February 26th, 2010 at 3:53 pm

    Fran (the original) and OPPC member
    February 26th, 2010 at 3:36 pm
    Erica and Erin,

    Just read that Elmo will be a guest on the Wendy Williams show on Monday. Might want to set your DVRs.
    ************

    Thank you Fran for the info!!!!

  72. tk February 26th, 2010 at 3:53 pm

    “Utley is exiting his prime??? At age 31?”

    Yeah, I would think so. What range would you consider prime? I’m certainly not saying that Utley is in his decline phase, but I think it’s fair to say that he is beginning to exit his prime. Does that sound unfair?

  73. mr jack February 26th, 2010 at 3:54 pm

    Lets just hope that Joba isn’t still drinking and driving. Guy can be an embarrassment. There are kids watching and after our horrible history with steroids we need better role models. Ya gotta love Phil but ARod and Andy are cheats who tarnish every game they play and Joba hasnt shown good judgement either.

  74. m February 26th, 2010 at 3:55 pm

    Fran,

    I hope things clear up soon.

    Jim,

    Thanks for the ST report. That was great.

  75. matt February 26th, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    Should NY add a 3rd team?

    http://newyorkstateofsports.sp.....m/blog.htm

  76. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 3:56 pm

    If NJ gets hurt, then they can move Granderson to the 2 hole.

    It is not about “raw numbers” right now. Their rate statistics are much more important, because we are just talking about getting the most production from the 2 hole.

    Lets say NJ gets injured 81 games into the season, 81 games of NJ in the 2 hole + 81 games of Granderson projects to be > than 162 games of Granderson in the 2 hole.

  77. Pat M. February 26th, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    Lets go Yankees, Time will tell, however when Curtis Granderson does indeed becomes the Bombers # 2 hitter, I’ve already given you the reasons why…..Clip & save

  78. Frank February 26th, 2010 at 3:57 pm

    TK:

    Always considered the half dozen years from 27 thru 32 as one’s prime years……but that’s just me. The game seems to be getting a little younger in general, so maybe that needs to be redefined.

  79. Jerkface February 26th, 2010 at 4:00 pm

    Giving granderson more games played doesnt matter because if NJ is not playing, Granderson will likely be in the 2 hole anyways. We’re only comparing production when Granderson and NJ are both available, and NJ will provide more RBI chances for Tex and A-rod.

  80. m February 26th, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    I can’t see the point of playing “what if” with injuries.

    Unfortunately, Jeter, Alex, and Jorge all had injuries in the last couple of years.

    On the flip side, (knock on wood), AJ’s been healthy.

    Cross those bridges when we get there.

    Pat, you’re a good guy. We’ll all line up and kiss your ring when you turn out to be right!

  81. tk February 26th, 2010 at 4:04 pm

    “Always considered the half dozen years from 27 thru 32 as one’s prime years……but that’s just me. The game seems to be getting a little younger in general, so maybe that needs to be redefined.”

    That’s sounds pretty reasonable, I think I was just defining “prime” a little more narrowly than you (thinking 27-30 or 31). After your question I looked around for some information on this and found a very detailed analysis at Hardball Times (I’ll link below) which looks at this a few different ways and in the end concludes with:

    “So while I think that we have shed some more light on the subject of peak age and trajectories for the average MLB player (as well as some subsets), I think the issue still contains a lot of muddy water. We don’t really know what the question is or even what it means once we articulate it.”

    http://www.hardballtimes.com/m.....ge-part-2/

  82. Pat M. February 26th, 2010 at 4:06 pm

    Simple situation, it’s late in the game ( 7-8-9 inning )and it’s a tight game…Who would you rather on first with the heart of the order coming up ????/ Johnson’s 1 extra trip to 1st base per week hardly of sets Granderson’s skills to score …..m, cute comment, it’s only business ( The Godfather )….No going to the matress though

  83. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 4:07 pm

    tk,

    Utley really has been amazing the past 5 years and it does not seem he gets enough credit enough credit for really how good he is. It seems he is overshadowed by Howard, which is a shame because Utley’s numbers have been much more historic to borrow a word from you.

  84. Jerkface February 26th, 2010 at 4:09 pm

    Pat M, similiar situation. Late in the game, you need to get someone on base to even consider coming back.

    I’d rather have NJ and then pinch run for him if i have to than rely on Granderson if Granderson is going to be a .345 type on base hitter.

    Nick Johnson will walk and HIT better than Granderson, he just lacks other secondary abilities like the speed and power that granderson has, but his fundamental baseball tools are really good.

    If a nasty lefty is warming in the bullpen, we might consider pinch hitting for Granderson.

  85. m February 26th, 2010 at 4:10 pm

    who would you rather on first with the heart of the order coming up ????

    I know Erica’s choice. :(

  86. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 4:10 pm

    Pat,

    Obviously you want Granderson on first, but as they say you cannot steal first.

    NJ can just be pinch run for. And you can say then you have an inferior player in, but Granderson is probably getting pinch hit for in those situations.

    So really late in the game it is actually NJ v. a pinch hitter

  87. GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 4:11 pm

    Granderson’s going to be a Hell of a lot closer to 30 steals than Johnson will be to 10. Why do you insist on putting a speed guy behind plow horses? Not only does it reduce chances of him scoring from 2nd on a single with Posada in front of him, but, all but eliminates him from going to third on a single.

  88. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 4:13 pm

    GB7,

    I guess you ignored Jerkface’s excellent post last night about taking extra bases.

  89. m February 26th, 2010 at 4:13 pm

    GB7,

    What’s the order you would use?

  90. Jerkface February 26th, 2010 at 4:13 pm

    Bat posada 7th after Granderson and Cano.

  91. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day February 26th, 2010 at 4:15 pm

    Carl, yep – someone posted that article before – I like.

  92. Pat M. February 26th, 2010 at 4:15 pm

    Guys, The difference is approx 28-30 times for the entire season, that Johnson reaches 1st more….That’s like once every 7 games….Are you comfortable with trading that off for more run scoring potential ???/ It’s all about our individual preferences to lineup construction…..You gents make outstanding points to be sure….

  93. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    “Not only does it reduce chances of him scoring from 2nd on a single with Posada in front of him, but”

    ——————————–

    To clarify this statement because I am not sure I am interpreting it right:

    Are you saying that if Posada is on 3rd and Granderson is on 2nd, Posada will reduce the chance of Granderson scoring on a single from lets say Nick Swisher?

  94. Jerkface February 26th, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    Granderson’s singular base running advantage is on scoring from first from a double. If you want him hitting second because he can steal, then you’re reducing your chances to putting Granderson on 1st anyways as he is either going to steal or be thrown out 50% of the time he is on first.

    And all of this does not account for innings in which the 8th or 9th hitter gets on and Granderson comes up with 1 or 2 outs. Depending on who is 8 or 9 Granderson might ALREADY be limited.

    Once the lineup flips over you’ll have Posada, Cano, or Swisher hitting 8th. All of them have middling speed, and Posada is the slowest guy on the team now and a bad baserunner to boot.

    All this hypothetical stuff is silly, I think the Yankees will go with the known quantity right now which is NJ gets on base way more than Granderson.

    If that is a problem they will fix it, Girardi isnt shy about mnoving the lineup around. same applies if they like what granderson shows in spring vs lefties and sit him in the 2 hole.

  95. GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    When I start seeing stupid comments like “it’s not about the raw numbers, it’s about rates/percentages”, you gotta shake your head any pity that person for having clumsy parents. He’s been dropped on his head too many times for it to be an accident. I’ll take the guy that actually does it.

  96. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day February 26th, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde....._phil.html

    Ok, Joe, but don’t tell Phil to use the change and then penalize him when he gets hit

  97. tk February 26th, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    “All I’m saying for an additional 25 more trips to 1st base, you sacrifice all the other elements that scores runs for the club”

    Pat M.,

    While reading your discussions with other people, I’ve your arguments very interesting. I can’t help but wonder if the tools you point out wouldn’t be more useful in front of guys like Posada/Cano than Tex/A-Rod. First, Granderson would have more RBI opportunities from say the #5 spot than #2. Second, since Tex/A-Rod hit considerably more HRs than Posada/Cano, wouldn’t Granderson’s ability to steal, score from 1st on a 2B, etc. be more useful at #5? Setting Granderson aside, I think the #2 slot maximizes NJ’s value since OBP is clearly his best asset. OTOH, Granderson is more versatile and could still provide comparable value elsewhere in the lineup. Wherever he hits, I think Granderson will absolutely rake this year and your faith in him will prove to have been well-founded. (Like someone said earlier, how great is it to be debating between having the #2 spot filled with a guy who could post a .420 OBP or a speedy CF who might hit 35 HR!)

  98. Jerkface February 26th, 2010 at 4:19 pm

    Guys, The difference is approx 28-30 times for the entire season, that Johnson reaches 1st more….That’s like once every 7 games….Are you comfortable with trading that off for more run scoring potential ???/ It’s all about our individual preferences to lineup construction…..You gents make outstanding points to be sure….

    Thats one game a week that NJ will be giving an exra PA to A-rod, Teixeira, or Granderson/Cano/Posada, which could mean the difference in a victory.

    And if NJ stays healthy and plays 140-150 games we’re talking more than 30 additional base reaches (it doesnt mean just first).

    Reverse it, are you comfortable giving up 30 rallies on the season for additional speed which only really manifests itself in very specific situations?

    NJ advances bases 42% of the time remember, Granderson was at 49 or 48%. His biggest win was in doubles from 1st.

  99. m February 26th, 2010 at 4:20 pm

    How about

    -Jeter
    -Johnson
    -Tex
    -Alex
    -Granderson
    -Posada
    -Cano
    -Swisher
    -Gardner

    If Granderson does indeed have lefty issues, then switch him and Cano.

    When Posada sits, Cervelli bats 8th, Swisher bats 6th if you want to preserve the L-R-L thingy.

  100. Erica - always OPPC February 26th, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    m
    February 26th, 2010 at 4:10 pm
    who would you rather on first with the heart of the order coming up ????

    I know Erica’s choice.
    ***************

    I am having great difficulty taking down my pictures of him around my desk. I don’t want to.

  101. GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    lets go yankees
    February 26th, 2010 at 4:16 pm
    “Not only does it reduce chances of him scoring from 2nd on a single with Posada in front of him, but”

    ——————————–

    To clarify this statement because I am not sure I am interpreting it right:

    Are you saying that if Posada is on 3rd and Granderson is on 2nd, Posada will reduce the chance of Granderson scoring on a single from lets say Nick Swisher?

    ————————————————————

    On short pop fly singles, yes. Posada is the slowest runner on the team, but, it’s compounded by the fact that he’s also not a good base runner.

  102. Jerkface February 26th, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    I am having great difficulty taking down my pictures of him around my desk. I don’t want to.

    I replaced the Bruney month in this years yankee calendar with my Matsui page from last year >:)

  103. NYY626 February 26th, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    Erica – always OPPC February 26th, 2010 at 4:21 pm

    m
    February 26th, 2010 at 4:10 pm
    who would you rather on first with the heart of the order coming up ????

    I know Erica’s choice.
    ***************

    I am having great difficulty taking down my pictures of him around my desk. I don’t want to.
    ______________________________________________________________
    Why would you take them down? If they make you happy, leave them there!

  104. m February 26th, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    Erica,

    It’s for the best, dear. Do it before ST games start. And then do it like a band-aid. Quickly.

  105. Jerkface February 26th, 2010 at 4:23 pm

    tk brings up a good point, Alex and Tex will hit more HRs than doubles anyways, so it might be better to have Granderson hitting infront of Posada, Cano, & Swisher. His power will help drive in A-rod/Tex and the doubles hitters behind him can maximize his score from 1st ability.

    I think the 5th spot is a good place for a ‘quick strike’ type anyways.

  106. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 4:24 pm

    GreenBeret7
    February 26th, 2010 at 4:18 pm

    When I start seeing stupid comments like “it’s not about the raw numbers, it’s about rates/percentages”, you gotta shake your head any pity that person for having clumsy parents. He’s been dropped on his head too many times for it to be an accident. I’ll take the guy that actually does it.

    ——————————

    This is an absolutely ridiculous comment. You clearly have no clue what the conversation is really about.

    I need to think for a minute if I actually need to respond to this or if you are just joking. Wow.

  107. Pat M. February 26th, 2010 at 4:24 pm

    Jerkface, Ithink it’ll come down to how Curtis changes his approach to hitting the lefties….The book on him is everything down and away and then bust him high and in…..Make a mistake in The Stadium and the book changes…..

  108. tex's friend February 26th, 2010 at 4:25 pm

    nj should have a better chance of being healthy this year only dhing. not playing the field offers less chance to get hurt.

  109. GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 4:26 pm

    Correction: but, all but eliminates him from going to third on a single.

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Let me fix this part:

    but, all but eliminates him from going ***from first to third on a single because Posada gets held at third.***

  110. Erin February 26th, 2010 at 4:26 pm

    Erica – always OPPC
    February 26th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
    m
    February 26th, 2010 at 4:10 pm
    who would you rather on first with the heart of the order coming up ????

    I know Erica’s choice.
    ***************

    I am having great difficulty taking down my pictures of him around my desk. I don’t want to.

    **********************
    Don’t take them down!! That way he’ll always remain a Yankee to you. :)

  111. GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 4:29 pm

    Respond or not. Did you not say that “raw numbers don’t matter, only rates”?

    lets go yankees
    February 26th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
    If NJ gets hurt, then they can move Granderson to the 2 hole.

    It is not about “raw numbers” right now. Their rate statistics are much more important, because we are just talking about getting the most production from the 2 hole.

    Lets say NJ gets injured 81 games into the season, 81 games of NJ in the 2 hole + 81 games of Granderson projects to be > than 162 games of Granderson in the 2 hole.

  112. Pat M. February 26th, 2010 at 4:30 pm

    tk, you do indeed make a solid point….It’s my hope that Robinson Cano takes his game to the next level and settles in the 5 hole to protect Alex…….At least today’s discussion is without fangs and switchblades

  113. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 4:32 pm

    Ok. One more time for GB.

    We are not talking about who is the better baseball player and we are not talking about who you would rather have on your team. Both guys are already on the team!

    What we are discussing is how to use the various players we have on this team to maximize each spot in the lineup. You maximize each spot in the lineup by putting the player best suited there every game.

    If both play 162 games, NJ projects to be more productive in the 2 hole.

    If NJ only plays 81 games, his greater “rate” contribution over those 81 games results in more production from the 2 hole over 162 games.

    Even at the most extreme, if NJ plays only 1 game next season, you still put him in the 2 hole on opening day because 1 game of NJ in the 2 hole + 161 games of Granderson > than 162 games of Granderson there.

  114. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 4:33 pm

    raw numbers do not matter in this very particular situation.

  115. Jerkface February 26th, 2010 at 4:33 pm

    Respond or not. Did you not say that “raw numbers don’t matter, only rates”?

    You missed his point entirely. Its totally about just projecting Granderson vs NJ in equal playing time, because if NJ is injured Granderson takes over anyways.

    You’re looking at the difference between NJ for 100 games and Granderson for 62 games in the 2 hole vs Granderson in the 2 hole for 162 games if you think NJ is going to get injured.

    And in the 100 games NJ and Granderson play together, NJ will reach base much more than Granderson.

    Anyways I think this argument has run dry.

  116. GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 4:34 pm

    Pat M.
    February 26th, 2010 at 4:30 pm
    tk, you do indeed make a solid point….It’s my hope that Robinson Cano takes his game to the next level and settles in the 5 hole to protect Alex…….At least today’s discussion is without fangs and switchblades

    ————————————————————

    Not yet, but, I heard The Jets and Sharks singing over on the next block. If Rita Moreno shows up soon….the fight’s on.

  117. m February 26th, 2010 at 4:34 pm

    Erica,

    Don’t listen to them. Please. There are plenty of other fish out there. You’re too good to be waiting for a man to come walking through the door!

  118. GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 4:36 pm

    given a choice between Johnson and Granderson? Johnson’s still looking for a job or in Arizona trying to stay healthy at Giant’s ST camp.

  119. m February 26th, 2010 at 4:36 pm

    Oops forgot the signature.

    mel
    PLC

  120. trisha - OPPC member who sees, hears, and knows all. 28 is on its way!!!!! February 26th, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    Pat M – I’ve been reading your points about wanting CG batting 2nd as opposed to NJ. I definitely agree with your take. First of all, I want speed in my first two positions and power after that. I am comfortable putting Nick further down in the lineup because I am less comfortable with his ability to run than with his ability to hit. With the lineup the Yankees have, Nick will definitely get his shot to hit guys over. But I think he’ll do that best further down in the lineup. Heck let him hit 5th if you want, or 6th.

    JMO

    By the way, I only got to skim the posts in this thread so don’t know all of the arguments made by different posters, or arguments made earlier. Just think I want speed closer to the top of the lineup.

  121. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    We are not talking about who is the better baseball player and we are not talking about who you would rather have on your team.

  122. blake February 26th, 2010 at 4:38 pm

    “It’s my hope that Robinson Cano takes his game to the next level and settles in the 5 hole to protect Alex…”

    I think the lineup would be at its best if that happened.

  123. stuckey February 26th, 2010 at 4:38 pm

    “When I start seeing stupid comments like “it’s not about the raw numbers, it’s about rates/percentages”, you gotta shake your head any pity that person for having clumsy parents. He’s been dropped on his head too many times for it to be an accident. I’ll take the guy that actually does it.”

    Exactly what sort of blunt head trauma produces hypocrisy, particularly the kind you don’t even comprehend you’re committing.

    War injury?

  124. Fran (the original) and OPPC member February 26th, 2010 at 4:40 pm

    mel,

    What does PLC stand for?

  125. Erica - always OPPC February 26th, 2010 at 4:40 pm

    Jerkface
    February 26th, 2010 at 4:22 pm
    I am having great difficulty taking down my pictures of him around my desk. I don’t want to.

    I replaced the Bruney month in this years yankee calendar with my Matsui page from last year >:)
    ****************

    It was perpetually Sepetmber 2009 for the last 4 months of 2009

  126. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day February 26th, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    http://uspresswire.com/sets/81858

    Granderson has a wonderful smile; I love him already

  127. Pat M. February 26th, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    Me personally, I think Curtis can score 120 runs this season in the 2 hole, Johnson maybe 95….And I’m being generous….To coin an old baseball saying, speed never has a slump

  128. Doreen February 26th, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    Whoever bats where to start the season, it’s not an unchangeable situation. It can be switched up if need be. I like what someone said earlier – there are tradeoffs no matter which order Girardi chooses.

    If the Yankees are scoring enough runs to win; if their pitching is being as stingy as we hope; it’s not really going to matter who is where, I guess – if it’s a matter of winning by 3 or more runs instead of by 1 or 2.

    My only fear with Johnson in the #2 spot is the dp possibility. However, is that going to be neutralized if he gives Jeter a chance to steal a few bases? He sees so many pitches, right? Is that the type of guy that makes it easier for someone on base to steal or not?

    Granderson seems to be more suited for #2, except for the strikeouts.

    But then you’ve got a few guys lower in the lineup who don’t run particularly well.

    As the guy said, tradeoffs. :)

  129. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day February 26th, 2010 at 4:41 pm

    http://uspresswire.com/sets/81858

    Cool pic

  130. Erica - always OPPC February 26th, 2010 at 4:42 pm

    m
    February 26th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
    Erica,

    Don’t listen to them. Please. There are plenty of other fish out there. You’re too good to be waiting for a man to come walking through the door!
    ************

    Very true. I am awesome. But I still miss Johnny. It’ll probably hit me when the season starts and then it will be time.

    You have to also remember, some of this pics have been up since Johnny was first signed. I have gotten very used to them around my desk

  131. Jerkface February 26th, 2010 at 4:42 pm

    given a choice between Johnson and Granderson? Johnson’s still looking for a job or in Arizona trying to stay healthy at Giant’s ST camp.

    It is a good thing that they are both on the team, and the things we are arguing about are purely lineup positions. Playing NJ in the 2 hole does not mean Granderson is not playing baseball for the Yankees.

  132. Chad Jennings February 26th, 2010 at 4:43 pm

    new post

  133. GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 4:45 pm

    Who would you rather have on your team? Nick Johnson or this guy, if they were the same age. It’s the same thing…rates and percentages vs actuall production.

    http://www.baseball-reference......jo01.shtml

  134. Jerkface February 26th, 2010 at 4:47 pm

    Thats not the same thing at all as what is being argued.

  135. GreenBeret7 February 26th, 2010 at 4:49 pm

    It’s exactly the same thing. One has a player that can be counted on to actually play on a daily basis and produce, and the other one got hurt.

  136. Jerkface February 26th, 2010 at 4:52 pm

    Curtis Granderson has never played 162 games in a season. He played only 140 as close back as 2008. The fact is you can’t argue Granderson vs Nick Johnson as being injury vs non injury. Until one of them is injured, they are both on the roster and will both play regardless.

    At this time its only to be argued who is more effective in the 2 hole. Nick Johnson, when he plays the game, will be more effective at getting on base and hitting for an average than Curtis Granderson.

  137. m February 26th, 2010 at 4:52 pm

    Waiting to see if Erica can guess it first. :P

  138. trisha - OPPC member who sees, hears, and knows all. 28 is on its way!!!!! February 26th, 2010 at 4:55 pm

    Jerkface, I disagree with your take and truly believe that you are going to see Granderson in the 2 hole. I see Johnson more about power. I think his bat will be appreciated further down in the lineup. You want the guys in the top of the lineup crossing the plate. You never want to be inhibited in that quest because of speed issues. Tell me the last time you saw a turtle near the top of the lineup.

  139. Pat M. February 26th, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    Total Baes per season…..Granderson 300…..Nick Johnson 239, Guys, that’s a significant difference

  140. lets go yankees February 26th, 2010 at 4:59 pm

    Pat,

    Good discussion. It is nice you are mixing in some stats into your argument.

    GB,

    I have questioned your intelligence before. But this time, I really am shocked that you cannot discern the difference.

  141. Jerkface February 26th, 2010 at 5:00 pm

    Nick Johnson, in his 200 games batting second. Where he did this: .284 .413 .423 .836

    Johnson doesnt have Granderson’s power, but he has a better contact ability and no weakness vs lefties. And he gets on base a butt load. I disagree with anyone who says he would somehow stop us from scoring runs.

  142. Jerkface February 26th, 2010 at 5:01 pm

    Total Baes per season…..Granderson 300…..Nick Johnson 239, Guys, that’s a significant difference

    More the reason to bat him 5th so that those extra bases plate Nick Johnson, A-rod, and Tex who will all be on base around 40% of the time.

  143. Pat M. February 26th, 2010 at 5:07 pm

    Next page


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