Down at the complex
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Mar 15, 2010 
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With nothing going on at Steinbrenner Field, I stopped by the Yankees minor league complex this morning. I think this is what a lot of people imagine when they think of spring training: A bunch of players rotating between four different fields going through various drills, most of them primarily for the pitchers to learn their defensive responsibilities.
I’ll say this for young catchers, when they go through balls in the dirt drills, they get after it. A lot of diving in the dirt and sliding through the grass.
Good news from down here, Delin Betances is scheduled to throw off a full mound tomorrow. Most of the other guys coming back from surgery — including George Kontos — are throwing off a half mound.
Games don’t start down here until the end of the week. Until then, it’s just a bunch of these sort of drills, over and over again.
Chad, thanks! That is good news on Betances and Kontos. I know next to nothing on Kontos, but it seems as if Betances is one of those guys who will be all potential and no performance.
MTU, those are hilarious, lol.
How about this one? Did you hear about the fire at the shoe factory? A thousand souls/soles were lost……..I love that one!
If you could all refrain from posting anything interesting until Con Ed can restore my electricity later this week, it would be most appreciated.
Thank you.
Chad
sounds like a lot of grass stains…who does their laundry?
MTU
those puns were funny
MTU-loved the puns
Great news on Betances.
Maybe the time off helped him with his mechanics. I have seen several reports that pitchers coming back from these injuries do a lot of dry, repetitive, mechanical work. If he can get more consistent with command he will be one to watch.
Kontos if healthy is probably a solid relief option for the end of this year.
There are just too many relief options available to the Yankees. I still think converting Joba or Phil to a reliever is a waste of a legit starting pitching candidate. I know I am beating a dead horse, but I still feel strongly about this.
Is it possible for you to post the daily Working Group for the minor league teams from day to day? I know the yanks are tight with that info but it would be great to see it when you can provide it. thanks in advance.
Ladies:
A sheep’s comment on the puns.
Not Baaaaaaaahd.
MTU
March 15th, 2010 at 10:56 am
Ladies:
A sheep’s comment on the puns.
Not Baaaaaaaahd.
****************************
LOL
five iron from fenway
March 15th, 2010 at 10:43 am
Great news on Betances.
Maybe the time off helped him with his mechanics. I have seen several reports that pitchers coming back from these injuries do a lot of dry, repetitive, mechanical work. If he can get more consistent with command he will be one to watch.
Kontos if healthy is probably a solid relief option for the end of this year.
There are just too many relief options available to the Yankees. I still think converting Joba or Phil to a reliever is a waste of a legit starting pitching candidate. I know I am beating a dead horse, but I still feel strongly about this.
====
Agree on Joba/Phil waste of young starter material. And coming at it from the reverse angle, with options for BP noted in your post, we don’t need either kid in the BP.
As per your observation on Betances, Garcia’s serious changeup was also a ‘mother of invention’ deal.
I missed seeing Kontos live, as he got hurt before I could get to him, but have heard about that slider ;0).
MTU,
On Matsui/Cano comparison: well, they both start to snicker, don’t they, when the opposing manager motions to the bullpen while tapping his left forearm arm
.
left forearm…that is.
Guys coming off TJ Surgery aren’t better options for the bullpen than healthy guys with a bullpen track record.
If they feel that Joba’s future isn’t as a starting pitcher, he’s going to end up in the bullpen.
They aren’t going to move unproven prospects ahead of him if they believe his future is in the pen.
Even if they don’t believe his future is in the pen, the chances are unlikely they are moving unproven prospects to the pen. That’s why they signed Chan Ho Park.
The obviously feel they needed another veteran arm in the pen.
RONAN TYNAN might sing for the red sox ! I am appaled by the way the Yankees have treated him. He is not an anti semite and this whole thing was blown way out of proportion. This is just wrong !
http://www.boston.com/news/loc.....s_a_voice/
They aren’t going to move unproven prospects ahead of him if they believe his future is in the pen.
===
They have enough people, including Park, that make Joba or Hughes’ presence in the BP superfluous – and an egregious waste.
‘Unproven’ is relative. Joba was ‘unproven’ when they put him in the 2007 BP.
Girardi has said all spring he is taking the 12 best pitchers north.
Seems to me that takes out all of the talk of either Chamberlain or Hughes going to AAA.
If that’s the case, one of them is going to the bullpen.
Clearly, its something the Yankees have planned for all winter. Its not like they haven’t had time to evision all the scenarios.
That’s why I think its naive to think that rehabbing pitchers are going to be bullpen guys this year.
Especially when you have a guy like Melancon almost ready to assume a role in the pen.
Melancon isn’t almost ready – he’s ready now – further precluding the need for Hughes or Joba to be wasted in short relief.
Joba wasn’t coming off TJ Surgery. He also had much better stuff than George Kontos has ever had.
They also know his track record in the bullpen.
Park wasn’t signed to setup Mo. That spot is being reserved for the “loser” of the Chamberlain/Hughes battle.
Again, this is about knowns vs. unknowns.
If the manager is saying he’s taking the 12 best pitchers north, do the math. Somebody is going to the bullpen and setting up Mo.
Girardi has said that all spring.
Just because posters on a blog disagree, which is certainly their right, doesn’t mean the Yankees are changing their minds.
The Yankees don’t believe he’s ready yet. Which, barring injury, is why he is starting the year in Scranton.
They certainly don’t believe he’s ready to pitch the 8th inning in NY or he would already be a lock on the 25 man roster.
You can’t conclude one of them will be “wasted” in short relief if their future just may be in short relief.
That’s my point.
There is are a lot of baseball people who feel Joba’s future is in the bullpen.
I’m not saying you have to agree with the position.
I’m just saying its not as cut and dried as you believe it is.
SJ – I am not suggesting that Kontos, Betances, Brackman or other begin the season in the pen. Look at last year, the Yankees remade virtually their entire non-Mo pen in season. This year they already have Mo, Marte, Park and Robertson for late innings and one or more of Aceves, Gaudin or Mitre for swing, long relief. This year’s version is substantially better than last year.
So, the logic is that you don’t need AT THE MOMENT to insert Phil or Joba into the pen. They will likely be better than the non-Mo contingent but what is the marginal benefit to the team at the beginning of the season.
The downside of the Joba or Phil to the bullpen now is that it sets their development back at least a year, or will permanently keep them in the pen.
The upside to Joba and Phil as starters is that even if it takes another full season for them to begin to reach their potential you will now have two low cost, young, locked up starting pitchers. The Yankees will always have options a couple months into the season if you need another arm to the pen. Melancon might be this years Robertson. Kontos might be healthy by the summer. Heck, Garcia might be healthy and the best of the bunch. Brackman might not be able to add the change and will emerge as a legit option down the road. There will be relievers available from other teams.
I guess to sum up, the Yankees already have a good to very good pen without Joba and Phil. They have many, many internal options should they need a call up. They always have the capability and have shown a willingness to make an in season trade if necessary. Even middle of the rotation starters (and I have a hard time believing that Joba and Phil with the appropriate development can’t at least be middle of the rotation starters) are far more valuable than relievers. Pettite will at some point retire. Vazquez may be gone after this year. The Yankees will need to replace some of these guys in the coming years and Phil and Joba are both top replacement candidates.
The only way the Yankee, IMO, put Joba in the pen is if that is where he will be for the rest of his career (which is premature to me).
SJ, I agree with you, but I think if Phil “loses” the 5th spot, it will be a huge mistake making him a set up man again. Next year, IF he gets the chance (and I’d have to wonder at this point if he would get the chance to start again), he’ll be back to square one with innings pitched. Joe, for some reason, refuses to use him multiple innings. Not only that, but it will have been a complete waste of time having him work on his change this year as he won’t use that ever…….and his curve (which got very rusty with disuse) will be just as bad. It’s no big deal for Joba because I think if Joba’s in the pen, he’s in the pen to stay. Phil will really be set back as a starter if he’s used as the set-up man.
I also detest the idea of this competition. Let’s say Joba wins out (either he pitches much better or Phil just struggles mightily in this last two starts)….Who’s to say that means that Joba would be the better starter this year? Who’s to say that Phil is not just a slow starter and would be better overall? The Yankees are judging these kids strictly by ST performance and I think that’s a mistake. By the way, what I said above goes for Joba as well.
Five Iron,
I’m saying the Yankees don’t see it that way….
If they felt Mark Melancon was ready, and he’s closest of all the bullpen arms to being ready, they wouldn’t have signed Park.
They aren’t going to look at Garcia and Kontos as options if they have Hughes or Chamberlain. Mostly Chamberlain because, IMO, I believe they want to put him back in the pen.
The Yankees have been pretty clear on this since the start of camp. They are taking the 12 best pitchers north and they are going to put one of Hughes or Chamberlain in the pen.
I would argue their pen is “ok”, not great without Hughes or Joba in it. Once you put one of those guys in the pen, it changes everything.
Again, this is based on what the Yankees are saying.
They have had all off-season to work all the machinations.
Clearly, unless they are lying to everybody, they are going to put one of Hughes/Chamberlain in the bullpen and take the 12 best arms north.
BryanHoch Yankees optioned RHP Ivan Nova to Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barre and RHP Hector Noesi to Single-A Tampa 2 minutes ago
Betsy,
Competition never hurts anybody. Lack of competition hurts player development more than competition.
What if they feel one guy is better suited long term to be a starting pitcher? Wouldn’t you say that affects thinking, vis a vie, where to slot the player on the roster?
Betsy,
I think Phil will be the #5 so this is probably a non issue but if not the Yankees care more about winning in 2010 than they do about whether it sets Hughes back as a starter or not. If Hughes can best help them win #28 as a set up man then that’s where he will be IMO…
SJ – I agree that you need the competition to push everyone to be better. I don’t think anyone on the Yankees felt that Robertson was going to be Robertson last year. Melancon might not be ready today, or in two weeks, but I would venture that he might be in two months.
I just think it is very troubling to whipsaw back and forth from starters to relievers. If however you must change mid-season it is likely easier going from starter to reliever. This is my point, why make the decision Joba now. I think that you might agree that Phil at least gets more shots down the road at starting if he “loses” the competition this spring. My feeling, and I sense yours as well, is that if Joba “loses” he is a reliever for his career.
To me it is too soon to make that ultimate career decision for Joba when you don’t have to. At worst (for the Yankees), give him a good couple of months in the minors and see if he can harness his mechanics and stuff to try to get back to where he was a couple of years ago when he was the top prospect in the game. Again, what is the downside – one win maybe over the first month or two of the season. The upside is enormous – a top of the line starter.
If Joba goes to the pen he is there for life. The only way the Yankees send him to the pen is if they are absolutely convinced, and not based on the results of a few spring training games, that he is a failed starter.
I just argue for more time and real results before this type of decision is reached.
SJ, I do believe competition is a good thing, but the problem is that the Yankees are going to make the decision based on ST results. Let’s assume (for now) that the Yankees think Joba is best suited for the pen. If he pitches great the next few outings and Phil doesn’t, then they are going to be forced to put Phil in the pen and Joba in the rotation. IMO, they should be thinking towards the future. I just don’t see how it is good to practically force a player into getting off to a fast start in ST when that player (whether he’s young or old) might just not be capable of doing that. FYI – the reason why I’m using Phil and not Joba as an example is because, as I said, I think that if Joba goes to the pen, he’s there to stay. I don’t think that’s the case with Phil……but again, he would be severely set back in terms of his development and his potential would not be maximized. Teams have gotten by without “great” closers; they can get by without “great” set-up men. I agree that Phil is not likely to be sent to AAA if he loses the #5 gig, but I think that would be a mistake. I’m just not sure that I trust the Yankees to develop him as a starter.
Blake, I’m not saying the Yankees shouldn’t care about winning, but they can win without Phil as set-up man.
I’m probably doing a poor job of communicating this position.
Let me break it down….
The Yankees had all off-season to figure out what to do to fill 2 slots in their rotation and fill out their bullpen.
They let Brian Bruney go, traded for Javy Vazquez and signed Chan Ho Park.
They also stated, and have been consistent with this throughout the spring, they are taking the 12 best arms north. They have also said whomever doesn’t win the 5th starters spot (between Hughes and Joba) will be setting up Mo.
That being the case, what do the above moves tell us with regard to the Yankees thinking?
1. They had no confidence in having both Hughes and Chamberlain in the bullpen. Its not an innings limit deal either. Joba is fully stretched out and Hughes can certainly go 150-175 innings this year. Plenty for a #5 starter.
They are saying they don’t want two young guys in the rotation. I take that as code they don’t see Joba’s future in the rotation. If they did, no reason to trade for Vazquez. JMO, but its an opinion shared by some decisionmakers in the organization.
Getting Vaz, a known commodity, now makes it clear one young guy is in the rotation. Seems to me, that guy is Hughes.
2. If they felt Melancon was ready to assume a role in the bullpen, there is no need to sign Chan Ho Park. They signed Park to work with Robertson and Marte, in front of the 8th inning guy leading to Mo. They wanted another experienced arm to pitch in the 7th inning, not named Brian Bruney. They didn’t want to leave it to Melancon. At least not yet.
Again, they had all winter to figure this stuff out and this is what they are doing, barring injuries.
I’m not saying folks have to like it or throw a party for their decisions. I’m saying, its pretty clear this is how its going to shake out.
One more thing – lets look beyond this season. Who will be the available starting pitching free agents, or trade candidates. Already, Lincecum, Hernandez, Johnson, Halladay, maybe Beckett are all off the board. That leaves Cliff Lee – who will be insanely expensive. If not Joba and Phil then who. The Yankees will need top flight starting pitching. Where does it come from a year from now or two years from now.
You can always, always get relievers. You can’t necessarily get starters. That is why they broke the bank for CC. That is why the Red Sox will likely sign Beckett despite serious worries about his shoulder’s health. That is why the Red Sox broke their own internal code about length of contract for Lackey.
You have to overpay in dollars and years for starting pitching. But if you have your own…
New post with two moves and a few minor league notes.
Betsy,
The Yankees have specifically said they aren’t basing the decision on ST results. They have said that over and over.
They said its not about results or stats in the spring. Your worry in that area is unfounded.
Five Iron,
They aren’t sending one of their 12 best arms to the minors. They just aren’t going to do it. They have been clear on that. I don’t see that stance changing in the next couple of weeks unless one of the kids completely falls off the map. Which, I don’t see happening.
I think there is something going on internally that is driving this more than anything else. Whether its health related or they just feel Joba may not be best suited long term to be a starter, something changed over the winter with their thinking. That’s clear.
I don’t know what but, something did because you have more people in the organization who were sold on Joba being a starter, now having a change of heart.
If they were sold on him as a starter, he have a starting slot locked up right now. The fact he doesn’t should tell you something has changed in their evaluation of him.
Could be long term health related for all we know.
sj44-
i think competition in spring training for hughes and chamberlain is a double edge sword. yeas, it may motivate them.
on the other hand, i listened the other day to an interview where david price said this year he can really work on his change up in spring training because he knows he has been told he has a spot in the rotation.
i know that girardi has said it’s not going to just be about results on who wins the competition , but it can’t make joba or hughes feel good to work on a change up or on pitching inside and get hammered.
do they really commit to working on a new pitch the way david price is working on his change up?
Meant to say, they had no confidence in both Chamberlain and Hughes in the **rotation** in an earlier post. Sorry for the typo.
Five Iron,
They could also re-sign Javy if they don’t want to sign Cliff Lee. They do have that option.
Randy,
They have been. Hughes has been throwing 10-12 changeups a start, plus his side work, and its been going great for him.
The results in the Spring aren’t going to determine the competition.
If the Yankees are comfortable Hughes can throw his change 8-10 times a start, he’s the frontrunner for the gig.
randy – isnt’ this where the art of managing comes into play? I don’t mean game-managing, but, rather, managing your players in order to get the most out of them. There must be a lot that goes on in the clubhouse and Joe’s office, between him, coaches, and players – the psychological component – that we have no idea of, but is part of Joe getting the max out of guys.