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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Notes from Wednesday

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc, Podcast on Mar 17, 2010 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Yankees Phillies Spring Baseball

When the Yankees boarded the bus to Clearwater this morning, the sky was grey and the forecast said a 30 to 50 percent chance of rain. Not great considering Andy Pettitte opened the exhibition schedule with a sim game, then had to pitch another simulated game when his second outing was rained out last week.

By game time, the sky was mostly clear, and Pettitte was able to get on the mound for an encouraging spring training debut: 4 IP, 5 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 1 BB, 4 K. The walk came on a 3-2 curveball, a pitch Pettitte said he decided to try just to work on it. The first run came when Ryan Howard fought off a pretty good pitch inside.

“I threw a lot of good stuff, a lot of good pitches,” Pettitte said. “My location I thought was fairly good. The balls they hit were just balls that I just didn’t quite finish on a couple of them.”

Here’s Pettitte talking about his outing.

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Yankees Phillies Spring Baseball

• Damaso Marte said he’s fine after being hit by a Ryan Howard line drive in the lower back. “He’s going to be sore,” Girardi said. “I asked if he had Bud’s signature on there. They said, just seams.”

• Joba Chamberlain threw 47 pitches in the game and another 15 or so in the bullpen. He wasn’t sure how many pitches he threw in the pen, but he said it was three batters worth. Pettitte was at 55 pitches, 36 strikes.

• Since Pettitte and Chamberlain are on the same scheduled, Girardi said there’s a good chance Pettitte’s next start will come in a minor league game so that Chamberlain can start another big league game.

• Girardi said once again that every fifth starter candidate will get at least one more outing before the Yankees start eliminating people from the competition.

• Two hits brought Brett Gardner’s spring average up to .240. Marcus Thames and Randy Winn also had hits today, just the third spring hit for each of them. “Marcus has swung the bat a little bit and run into a little bit of bad luck,” Girardi said. “You want to see everyone get into their groove because as we get going further, there are going to be less at-bats for people.”

• Give some credit to Amaury Sanit. He was easily the smallest-name Yankees pitcher in this game, but he did throw a hitless, walkless inning with two strikeouts. He hasn’t walked a batter or allowed a run through 3.2 spring innings.

• Three hits for Francisco Cervelli, who’s suddenly batting .583 this spring. That sort of number makes that goofy helmet look good on him. Jon Weber also had another hit. He’s batting .571. Cervelli and Weber have the highest batting averages in camp.

• None of the fifth starter candidates will pitch tomorrow night against the Rays. “We’re going to see some relievers,” Girardi said. Javier Vazquez will start. Chan Ho Park and Dave Robertson are among those scheduled to pitch in relief.

• Split-squad on Friday. CC Sabathia and Mariano Rivera will pitch at home. Chad Gaudin and Sergio Mitre will pitch on the road. The Yankees still haven’t decided when Alfredo Aceves will pitch next. He might pitch in relief of Sabathia on Friday, or he might start on Saturday.

• Recently discovered that I’m allowed to post Associated Press photos on here. It’s very helpful. That’s an AP shot of Pettitte at the top and of Marte in the middle.

Comments

comments

 

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295 Responses to “Notes from Wednesday”

  1. Holden March 17th, 2010 at 6:13 pm

    Game temps to be in the 70s for the next couple of days.

    Ahh, spring!

  2. Patrick March 17th, 2010 at 6:14 pm

    It sure would be nice if Cervelli can provide something with the bat. Molina was a great defensive backup but atrocious at the plate. I doubt Cervelli will ever develop power but he could be a high average (for a backup catcher) line-drive/gap hitter.

  3. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 6:14 pm

    “Girardi said once again that every fifth starter candidate will get at least one more outing before the Yankees start eliminating people from the competition.”

    Hope this clarifies. The winner won’t be named after the next start. The guys without a shot will be removed from the equation.

    There is a LONG way to go for Hughes and Chamberlain. IF there is a true competition among them, it probably hasn’t even begun in earnest.

    Both of their most recent outings (what the Yankees wanted to see from them) essentially erases their initial outings from the ledger.

  4. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 6:15 pm

    Thanks, Chad!

    Very glad to see that Marte is ok..he dodged a bullet for sure.

  5. Carl March 17th, 2010 at 6:17 pm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2Qpui1hYBw

    CC Sabathia’s new commercial

  6. Nick in SF March 17th, 2010 at 6:18 pm

    S.o.S.: no problem, I don’t take that kind of vicious betrayal pesonally at all. The betting public has shifted the line from Cal being a 1-point ‘dog to being either a pick ‘em or a 1-point favorite, but I’d be shocked if Louisville wasn’t the majority pick on brackets.

    I keep on reading that Cal could give Duke a real tough time but probably won’t get past Louisville. We’ll see!

    Haven’t filled out my brackets yet, I’m lagging.

  7. S.o.S. March 17th, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    Pete didnt sleep much from what i can recall. If you were up 23 hours of the day, you would probably have the munchies. Unless you were being distracted by a Bruce Springstein concert.
    I finish off my goodies(junk food)staying up to see SNL on saturdays. Then starve myself for days after.

  8. Carl March 17th, 2010 at 6:20 pm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td352xP-NZ8

    EA dissed COD5 and the Phillies lol

  9. Mike March 17th, 2010 at 6:21 pm

    stuckey,

    Don’t tell that to the people who think Hughes has already won the job and Joba has no shot and should just forfeit.

  10. SJ44 March 17th, 2010 at 6:22 pm

    Stuckey,

    seems to me Girardi’s timetable if the 24th/25th is still in play. Nothing he said contradicts that.

  11. S.o.S. March 17th, 2010 at 6:23 pm

    My bad Nick. Had Duke not Kentucky. Get to it! Want to know your picks before it all starts tomorrow. Who’s your cinderella team?

    If it means anything i want Cal hate Louisville but just think they will pull it off at the end. Good to see someone besides UCLA and Arizona being the Pac 10 top dog.

  12. SJ44 March 17th, 2010 at 6:25 pm

    What did Girardi say that’s any different? Nothing. Hughes and Chamberlain will pitch one more time each, as will the other guys, before the 24th.

  13. Walrus March 17th, 2010 at 6:25 pm

    IMO, Girardi is just being politically correct. Hughes has had 3 good outings in a row. Unless he blows up in both of his next outings, the job is going to be his, regardless of what Joba does.

    The Yanks just want to make this appear fair, but they have already made up their minds, barring Hughes going in the tank.

  14. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Montero Fanaticus Primus March 17th, 2010 at 6:26 pm

    Seen at the parade today: http://www.puristbleedspinstri.....z-slainte/

    (It’s Yankees related, I promise!)

  15. jax gmen March 17th, 2010 at 6:27 pm

    i still can’t believe people think joba is going to win the job based on 1 outing lol

  16. Bronx Jeers March 17th, 2010 at 6:28 pm

    Poor Marte.

    His stuff was so hittable it nearly cost him his life!

    And when Joe talks about so and so player having bad luck?

    That means they’re currently on the 25 man roster in his mind.
    :wink:

  17. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 6:29 pm

    Girardi was very effusive in his praise of Joba, more so than he was of Phil, so who knows? We just have to wait and see this play out…..Phil could be awful next out and Joba great. I hope it’s true that the Yankees are not judging this competition based on ST stats. If that’s the case, it’s hard to even compare Phil and Joba as the Yankees are looking for different things from them

  18. S.o.S. March 17th, 2010 at 6:29 pm

    I don’t take that kind of vicious betrayal pesonally at all.

    =======

    lol. Just caught that. My computer and i have had the Jeter cough. A bit slow today. I can say the same thing about rooting against my Longhorns in the BCS game. When Colt went down, I knew you had jinxed him. Mack knew it too. Is this the wrong time to say “Cal go out there and break a leg”?

  19. CR9 March 17th, 2010 at 6:30 pm

    Doreen

    Excellent point. But could he not have just banned his full name (Pete or Peter A******)?

    m

    It is our business. According to the media (at least P.A.), it is the fans’ business what the players eat, drink, and do all 24 hours of the day. As I said before, P.A. is sort of like a role model for youth. His weight encourages others that his weight is acceptable (health wise) when it is not.

  20. S.o.S. March 17th, 2010 at 6:34 pm

    Hughes and Chamberlain will pitch one more time each, as will the other guys, before the 24th.

    =======

    Hughes will have to do his best immatation of Leon Lett to lose the 5th spot now.

    I think we need to use the other two lefties to start the year and do a modified “Clemens rules” for Marte. Have him take 6 months off and call him when the playoffs start.

  21. Dan March 17th, 2010 at 6:37 pm

    Eliand was quoted in one of the papers last week saying they are not looking at ERA and gave the example that a guy might pitch a scoreless inning but give up 3 hard hit balls or hit liners right at fielders and show they are not fooling anyone… whereas another guy might give up cheap hits that should be outs (like Joba did in his 1st inning today) but show great stuff and thats what they would be looking at instead of results.

  22. S.o.S. March 17th, 2010 at 6:39 pm

    And when Joe talks about so and so player having bad luck?

    That means they’re currently on the 25 man roster in his mind.

    ====

    Like the saying goes. Its better having bad luck than being good.

  23. Alan March 17th, 2010 at 6:39 pm

    Royce Ring or Boone Logan still have shots at being in the bullpen to open the season if Marte’s lower back acts up and he doesn’t get at least 4 more relief appearances.

  24. Rich in NJ March 17th, 2010 at 6:39 pm

    Are there are reports on Joba’s velo?

  25. BJK March 17th, 2010 at 6:40 pm

    When was the last time we went through a season with the same 1-5 starters?

    I get the argument of having the best 12 pitchers in the majors. What about the argument for having the best 6th and 7th starter possible ready to go? You know someone will be needed, it’s just how the game goes.

    What happens when the #5 becomes the #4? or worse-case, the #3?

    Hughes and Joba should both be starters. If we insist on our “best 12 arms” being in the majors, whoever isn’t the #5 should be the longman. Stretched out and ready to step in when someone goes down.

    We have eighth inning guys named Robertson, Park and Marte.

    And we’ll have rotation spots to fill if Pettitte and Vazquez are gone next year. I’d like that to be with Hughes and Joba another year matured.

  26. Bronx Jeers March 17th, 2010 at 6:41 pm

    (It’s Yankees related, I promise!)

    ——————————————————–
    Rebecca,

    I’d be psyched to see Freddie right about now. It means we must be getting close!

    For a few years my Friday seats were in sec 16 of the upper deck and as we always came a bit early to avoid the crunch on the 4 train, we would always see Freddie sitting in the first row of our section as he prepared to make his rounds.

  27. S.o.S. March 17th, 2010 at 6:43 pm

    Wouldnt Girardi also look at what innings they pitched? I mean doesnt the starters get pulled out after a couple of at bats? So if pitcher A pitched the first 4 gave up a run innings and pitcher b pitched a scoreless middle 4 innings. Would we give pitcher A the nod being that he went against tougher oponents? Same thing goes with hitters.

  28. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 17th, 2010 at 6:45 pm

    CR9

    I don’t know what they tried and what worked and what didn’t work in terms of banning imposters. But in any event, it could be time to lift at least some of the banned letter streams.

    :)

    ++++++++++++
    Spring does indeed seem to be springing. Hit 66 degrees here in central NJ and the bunnies have come out from their hutches to nibble on my lawn, which is greening. No sign of snow to be seen. My lilies and irises are starting to sprout green, and I actually saw some daffodils in full bloom!

    What a difference some late afternoon sunshine can make – I love it!

    And I’m really ready for Yankees baseball. It was very disappointing to be driving today without being able to tune in a Yankees game! Not fair, I say.

  29. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 6:45 pm

    “seems to me Girardi’s timetable if the 24th/25th is still in play. Nothing he said contradicts that.”

    SJ, Chad would be in better position to clarify that, as he describes what Girardi said rather than quotes him, but if Chad got the context of this correctly:

    “Girardi said once again that every fifth starter candidate will get at least one more outing before the Yankees start eliminating people from the competition.”

    Then the meaning is perfectly clear. They’ll START eliminating people after one more start. That’s a VERY different thing that naming the 5th starter after everyone has another start.

  30. Coach6423 March 17th, 2010 at 6:45 pm

    I still cant believe that people think that Joba was done based on 2 appearances in early March, 3 and 2/3rds innings worth of appearances.

  31. DMan March 17th, 2010 at 6:48 pm

    If this is indeed a fair competition and Girardi was sincere when he said that the first 2 outings wouldn’t count as the pitchers were trying to get in shape, then at worst, both Hughes and Joba are even after round 1. Joba should probably be ahead considering the quality of his stuff today and his efficiency.

    How did we arrive at the conclusion that Hughes is the favorite? Based on what? Certainly not the results of the last 2 days. If anything, it is a draw.

  32. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 6:52 pm

    “I hope it’s true that the Yankees are not judging this competition based on ST stats. ”

    A pearl of wisdom from Betsy.

    They most likely aren’t. Much more likely, it’s someone’s (I’m not predicting who) job to lose, though the possibility remains they can lose it for some dominant can take it away from them, which fairly makes it a “competition”.

    Anyone who believe 5 pitchers (or even two) all started out with an equal chance to be the 5th starter the the choice will be made based on spring training results, much less results from their respective first appearances, is being incredibly naive.

    The guy whose job it is to lose has to show the Yankees what they want to see by the end of ST.

    1-2 innings pitched in the early March is irrelevant to this process.

  33. SJ44 March 17th, 2010 at 6:52 pm

    Stuckey,

    Girardi has said on more than one occasion that he wants the spot settled by the 24th/25th so he can get the guy going to the pen some work to prepare for the season.

    I think he reiterated that to the beat guys as late as yesterday.

    I don’t think he’s saying anything different today.

  34. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 6:53 pm

    “I still cant believe that people think that Joba was done based on 2 appearances in early March, 3 and 2/3rds innings worth of appearances.”

    Most people “think” what they want to believe…

  35. Jerkface March 17th, 2010 at 6:53 pm

    If Cervelli gets the plate discipline that he had in the minors (which he has shown at times) he is going to be a dangerous backup catcher.

    Cervelli has some real skills. Probably not a starting catcher on a top tier team, but he’d be manning the position for probably anyone not in the playoffs and will be a great backup.

    I’m really enthused by his bat.

  36. m March 17th, 2010 at 6:54 pm

    Didn’t Girardi first say he wanted to make a decision by the 24th? Anyway, the last word makes it sound like pitchers will be eliminated from the competition. If mitre has a bad to mediocre outing, then I think he and Gaudin will be voted off.

    If Ace has a good outing, it could be Joba, Hughes, Ace still competing after the 24th or so.

  37. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 6:55 pm

    “I think he reiterated that to the beat guys as late as yesterday.

    I don’t think he’s saying anything different today.”

    Can’t argue that Girardi has said that. But he DID say something different today. If Chad paraphrases his correctly it is different.

    Maybe he misspoke, maybe he lied, maybe Chad butchered the quote. That’s all possible. But we’re wasting each other’s time to say that quote isn’t different. It is.

  38. Rockks March 17th, 2010 at 6:55 pm

    Cliff Lee suspended 5 games for throwing at Snyder’s head…

    I don’t want this clown on my team. I’d much rather re-sign JV to a 4-5 yr deal than give a guy like Lee a big $20 million dollar deal…..

  39. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 6:56 pm

    Bottom line:

    It shouldn’t matter wether it’s JC or PH as our 5th starter as long as we can be sure that both young men are given the fullest possible opportunity to reach their cielings before being relegated to the BP permanently.

    That is all that should matter, and it is all that should be required.

    The rest is up to them.

    I pull for both to reach their cielings. :)

  40. austinmac March 17th, 2010 at 6:57 pm

    I am excited to have just purchased two front row tickets at a Yankee game at Ranger Stadium in September. I have never been front row, but it’ll be my birthday.So what the heck. And,yes,it will be a hundred degrees.

  41. yanksince57 - LET"S ROLL! March 17th, 2010 at 6:59 pm

    i will reserve judgment on whether the level of discourse here is worse than ever until i read the first 1000+ comments game thread! nick in sf can probably quote the current odds on that eventuality :)

  42. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 7:06 pm

    Congrats Austin.

    After what you have been thru recently that’s just a small token. :)

  43. Bronx Jeers March 17th, 2010 at 7:09 pm

    Cliff Lee suspended 5 games for throwing at Snyder’s head…

    I don’t want this clown on my team. I’d much rather re-sign JV to a 4-5 yr deal than give a guy like Lee a big $20 million dollar deal…..

    ————————————————————–

    Unless your father’s name happens to be George Steinbrenner I don’t think you’ll have to worry about making that decision.

    I’m also curious to know your stance on Joba.

  44. bru March 17th, 2010 at 7:16 pm

    i’ll take lee over vaz any day

  45. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 7:33 pm

    UPON FURTHER REVIEW

    This is what Chad wrote yesterday, BEFORE Hughes threw.

    “Girardi said all of the fifth starter candidates will make at least one more appearance before they start eliminating candidates. They hope to have a starter picked by the end of next week, and until then they might gradually rule out a starter or two at a time. “There are no rules,” Girardi said. “We’ll just do it as we feel it’s necessary to make moves.”

    Now Girardi is quoted as having said the thing about “one more start before” AFTER Hughes and Chamberlain threw another time.

    The “end of next week” (the 27th or 28th) would also likely allow Hughes and Chamberlain to make 2 more starts each before a decision is rendered going into the final weeks.

    “There are no rules. We’ll just do it as we feel it’s necessary to make moves,” is likely the most important piece of information here, along with the fact that Girardi repeated the thing about one more start before AND after the two most obvious candidates threw.

    Conclusion. Girardi and the Yankees either don’t have any hard and fast rule, or they reserve the right to change the rule whenever and however they like or Girardi is just talking to the press and saying what’s on his mind at any given moment and isn’t intending to spell out the precise process.

  46. Peter R March 17th, 2010 at 7:35 pm

    DMan March 17th, 2010 at 6:48 pm

    If this is indeed a fair competition and Girardi was sincere when he said that the first 2 outings wouldn’t count as the pitchers were trying to get in shape, then at worst, both Hughes and Joba are even after round 1. Joba should probably be ahead considering the quality of his stuff today and his efficiency.

    How did we arrive at the conclusion that Hughes is the favorite? Based on what? Certainly not the results of the last 2 days. If anything, it is a draw.

    ————————————————————

    I am not sure fairness enters into it. It is baseball and baseball is a business. Gotta put the best product out there.

    I think Hughes is the favorite based on a few things.
    1. His stuff is better starter stuff. More pitches. More skillful pitching.
    2. He is a better starter mentally than Joba. Joba needs to get amped up (like to keep pace today) to be his best.
    3. They are sorta even is “score” now but Phil is a bit ahead.
    4. He has more innings as a starter. Maybe not at the majors but overall. It wouldn’t hurt Joba to polish his starter product a little more at AAA. Hughes has already proved himself enough there….done his time.

    I agree that they both need to be starters soon and putting either in the bullpen would be a waste this year as we already have a solid enough bullpen. Send the “loser” to AAA to get some innings and we all know they will be up before the summer is through.

  47. The Burning Question March 17th, 2010 at 7:37 pm

    i’ll take lee over vaz any day

    “““““““““““““““

    What do you do if Javy wins 16-18 games, is stellar in the postseason, and just wants a year-to-year contract ?

  48. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 7:39 pm

    “I agree that they both need to be starters soon and putting either in the bullpen would be a waste this year as we already have a solid enough bullpen. Send the “loser” to AAA to get some innings and we all know they will be up before the summer is through.”

    And then what? What if the injured starter also misses a handful of starts? Then after 10 15 days you have 6 starters again?

    What then?

  49. Bronx Jeers March 17th, 2010 at 7:42 pm

    The thing about this competition is that there will be a personnel move with respect to either Mitre or Gaudin so Cash might want to get an early start to deal with that.

    In some way there might be 2 distinct competitions playing out.

  50. xxx March 17th, 2010 at 7:43 pm

    Very interesting article on Kevin Long, Chad:

    http://www.lohud.com/article/2.....rs-respect

    That entire sledge hammer to the eye socket story was new to me. That does not sound like a good time at all.

    I noticed last year Long was having some of the hitters spread their feet and eliminate their timing mechanisms (A-Rod and Gardner, for instance).

    Anytime a hitter can eliminate possible slump catalysts it will pay off in the post season. A-Rod was delivering because he was comfortable w/his swing and there were no timing issues.

    Great read.

  51. blake March 17th, 2010 at 7:43 pm

    I don’t think it would be a bad thing for Joba to spent a year in the pen no matter if the decision is to keep him on the starter path or permanently make him a reliever. I think not all but some of his problems were confidence related and that may give him the best chance to get that and his aggressiveness back.

    Many people think Phil’s bullpen time stunted his development. I’m not so sure it won’t turn out to have been the best thing that could have happened to him because it allowed him to prove to himself that he could get big league hitters out on a consistent basis. Now he just has to concert that to starting.

    Whatever they do I want them to put Joba in the best position to succeed this year because the team needs it and I think he does too.

  52. SJ44 March 17th, 2010 at 7:45 pm

    I think you are overthinking it.

    Just watch how it plays out.

    IMO, the #5 starter will be known by the end of next week.

  53. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 7:47 pm

    Blake, good post -I agree.

  54. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 17th, 2010 at 7:48 pm

    What happened to Ron Washington today?

  55. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 7:49 pm

    Blake, Hughes for 4 straight months was arguably the best reliever baseball pitching high leverage innings for playoff contending team.

    How ANYONE can regard that as anything but a huge positive for his “development” is beyond me.

  56. Peter R March 17th, 2010 at 7:49 pm

    stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 7:39 pm

    “I agree that they both need to be starters soon and putting either in the bullpen would be a waste this year as we already have a solid enough bullpen. Send the “loser” to AAA to get some innings and we all know they will be up before the summer is through.”

    And then what? What if the injured starter also misses a handful of starts? Then after 10 15 days you have 6 starters again?

    What then?

    ———————————————————–

    Sounds like a good problem to have to me.

    I don’t really care what you do as long as both are ready (innings and experience) wise to pitch as starters next year when there is likely going to be spots.

    If Hughes is in pen this year, then hes back to what, 100-120 innings next year? Take another 2 years (!!) to stretch out again?

    If Joba in pen this year, last years stretching out was a waste and hes back to 120-150 innings next year? Another year of Joba Rules?

    Bit of a pickle either way I guess. But a nice and tasty pickle to have for sure.

  57. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 7:49 pm

    Doreen, he confessed that he used cocaine………

    Well, whoever wins the #5, there are going to be a lot of annoyed fans out there who are upset that the other one didn’t get it.

  58. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 7:51 pm

    Blake-

    ” don’t think it would be a bad thing for Joba to spent a year in the pen no matter if the decision is to keep him on the starter path or permanently make him a reliever.”

    I can’t agree with you on this .

    Fine to let him spend time in the BP as long as an opportunity to compete for a starter’s job is still on the table for the future.

  59. xxx March 17th, 2010 at 7:51 pm

    “What happened to Ron Washington today?”

    Remember all those Phil Coke jokes everyone was making last summer?

    For Ron Washington, it was no laughing matter.

  60. Peter R March 17th, 2010 at 7:52 pm

    Betsy – Romine wasn’t built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 7:49 pm

    Doreen, he confessed that he used cocaine………

    Well, whoever wins the #5, there are going to be a lot of annoyed fans out there who are upset that the other one didn’t get it.

    ————————————————————–

    Ya that totally blew me away…came right outta left field. Was so well respected and admired as a manager around the league.

  61. blake March 17th, 2010 at 7:55 pm

    Stuckey,
    I agree, I don’t see how that could be a negative. It gave him loads of confidence and we finally saw that famous fastball command that everyone that saw him in the minors was talking about.

  62. Joe from Long Island March 17th, 2010 at 7:55 pm

    Bronx Jeers – How do you know that Cash hasn’t already got something in motion? Remember, this is a guy who started working on the Granderson trade just before Game 1 of the WS.

    blake – I couldn’t agree with you more. Going to the pen 1)could be the best thing for Joba, for the reasons you gave, and 2)isn’t necessarily permanent. And if it is, then the Yanks have a really good pitcher in the pen, possible successor to Mo. Seems like a win-win.

  63. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 7:55 pm

    http://bosoxinjection.com/2010.....ton-globe/

    A: I think Boston will have a better rotation by a small margin. Boston’s top three – Lester, Lackey, Beckett are better than Yankees top three – Sabathia, Burnett, Pettitte. I like Vazquez as a No. 4 but I think Buchholz has the ability to outpitch him. I like Boston’s No. 5 right now – whether it be Dice-K or Wakefield, over Phil Hughes, though I think Hughes will be pretty good in time. I always wonder about Burnett and whether he’s due for a down season. I wonder how long Pettitte can pitch at a high level, and while I like Vazquez, he’s coming back to the AL where he won’t be quite as effective as he was last season.

    ***Bucholz is going to be better than Vasquez? Javy is a ? coming back to the AL, but CB is not based on pitching well against the O’s and Jays?

    I guess he thinks the Yankees are going to fall apart without Damon and Matsui. Boy.

  64. Giuseppe Franco March 17th, 2010 at 7:56 pm

    I’ve always been a “Joba in the rotation” guy myself and I hope he can build on today’s performance.

    I’d be very disappointed if Joba doesn’t get that opportunity to be a starter long term even if he does have to spend the ’10 season in the pen.

    I don’t think you can determine whether he’s not fit as a starter based on one season.

  65. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 7:58 pm

    So basically, he hates our rotation, lol

  66. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 17th, 2010 at 7:58 pm

    Betsy -

    During the season? At work?

    Wow.

    Wow…

    I didn’t know people still did cocaine. (But then again, I never knew it before, either :? )

  67. David (In Seattle) March 17th, 2010 at 7:58 pm

    Here’s a professional opinion of Boston fans:
    http://comics.com/get_fuzzy/

  68. blake March 17th, 2010 at 8:00 pm

    MTU,
    I don’t think its written in stone that once you go to the pen you’re there for life, especially at 24. I think Joba needs to have a successful year for his confidence if nothing else. Having a successful year in the Bullpen may help him the way I think it helped Hughes last year. They could always stretch him back out or if the Yanks were really forward thinking could try something like CB proposed earlier (doubt it) but who knows. Like I said I just think Joba needs to be placed in a role where he can have success in 2010 no matter where they decide that is.

  69. SJ44 March 17th, 2010 at 8:00 pm

    There’s an “objective” analysis by a Red Sox fan! LOL

    I’m guessing he wrote that in his underwear with his Dice-K jersey.

    Outstanding homer report!

  70. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 8:00 pm

    GF, I agree. The mediots clearly know nothing about developing young pitching as they’ve gotten whiplash jumping on and off Phil and Joba’s bandwagons. Unfortunately, some fans are like this as well. I hope the Yankees know what they are doing.

  71. austinmac March 17th, 2010 at 8:00 pm

    MTU–Thanks for the thought.

    I do like SJ44′s thought of using the loser of the 5th starter decision along the line of Mo as a set up man. That would require confidence in Marte and/or Robertson as solid 8th inning guys since longer bullpen stints mean more off days.

  72. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 8:01 pm

    GF-

    “I don’t think you can determine whether he’s not fit as a starter based on one season.”

    Right on !

  73. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 8:02 pm

    SJ, the link is called BoSox injection; I think Cafardo (who should be objective as he’s a journalist) injected something, I just don’t know what.

  74. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 8:03 pm

    Blake-

    “I don’t think its written in stone that once you go to the pen you’re there for life, especially at 24. I think Joba needs to have a successful year for his confidence if nothing else. Having a successful year in the Bullpen may help him the way I think it helped Hughes last year. They could always stretch him back out or if the Yanks were really forward thinking could try something like CB proposed earlier (doubt it) but who knows. Like I said I just think Joba needs to be placed in a role where he can have success in 2010 no matter where they decide that is.”

    This I agree with but you said something different before I thought.

  75. Wanderer March 17th, 2010 at 8:05 pm

    I have to ask, why does Cervelli have this mark against him as if his full potential is a good back up at best?

    I understand he didn’t project to be elite in the minors, but he’s “called” some good games, has a great arm, he’s fast, and he hit for a decent average last season while he was playing. What declares him not a starting catcher from all of that? Are starting catchers required to be powerhouses now?

    I appreciate that if Montero can develop into a passable catcher he’ll be elite for his bat alone, but you shouldn’t depreciate Cervelli’s value in that regard.

    I just wouldn’t dismiss him as a back up at best yet.

  76. SJ44 March 17th, 2010 at 8:05 pm

    If Joba spent the season in the pen, it would not preclude him from being in the rotation next year if that’s the way the Yankees want to go.

    Innings restrictions wouldn’t be a factor.

  77. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 17th, 2010 at 8:06 pm

    Oh, man, I got filtered and I don’t know why.

    Just don’t understand how the Yankees always lose out when they play “what-if.” Lke only Yankees players age while everyone else seems to have players straight from Neverland who don’t age.

    Sigh.

  78. SJ44 March 17th, 2010 at 8:09 pm

    How anybody can say Buchholz is a better pitcher than Vazquez is beyond me.

    Obviously, you can say anything. However, you should try not sounding like an idiot, even if it’s on a homer blog.

  79. Pat M. March 17th, 2010 at 8:12 pm

    A nice 4 inning stint today is most encouraging…However, It hardly washes one’s memory of the disaster that was Joba’s 2009 season…..4 inning is just about 1 inning less than his average start……He needs to be able to duplicate his motion, his delivery, his desire and commitment….Until then, he’s going to solidify the pen….Hughes is in the rotation

  80. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 8:12 pm

    It defies logic, really. Bucholz is a promising pitcher, but holy cow. Let’s see…He has a feeling Burnett will have a down year, he wonders how long Andy can keep this up (he’s 38, so for a long time apparently – and he doesn’t have to be GREAT anyway) and he thinks Phil will be pretty good in time. Javy will struggle in the AL and Bucholz will be lights out in the AL East. Hypocrite much? Oh brother

  81. SJ44 March 17th, 2010 at 8:13 pm

    Doreen,

    so true. Here is the tule of thumb…..

    Every Red Sox prospect is a future Hall if Famer….

    Every Yankee prospect is a bust…..

    Every Red Sox player on the 25 man roster is a threat because Theo is a genius…

    Every Yankee player over 30 will shatter like fine China hitting the floor….

    If you just follow those simple “rules”, it covers about 90% of the nonsense written about the two teams.

  82. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 8:17 pm

    Cafardo neglected to take into account how much better the Yankees were than the Sox last year. Damon and Matsui were clutch players, but who the heck can say that Johnson and Granderson aren’t? Damon was MIA for a long time at the end of the season and Matsui is very capable of cold streaks. They are not the only two player capable of helping this team. I think this guy is an outlier because most Sox guys respect the Yankees. This guy is delusional at best.

  83. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 8:18 pm

    8 simple rules for being a Sox lover – that covers it all.

  84. blake March 17th, 2010 at 8:19 pm

    Red Sox fans are the only fanbase I can think of that can combine panic stricken worry with delusions of grandeur pretty much at the same time.

  85. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 17th, 2010 at 8:20 pm

    Pat M.
    March 17th, 2010 at 8:12 pm
    A nice 4 inning stint today is most encouraging…However, It hardly washes one’s memory of the disaster that was Joba’s 2009 season…..4 inning is just about 1 inning less than his average start……He needs to be able to duplicate his motion, his delivery, his desire and commitment….Until then, he’s going to solidify the pen….Hughes is in the rotation
    ===

    LOL Pat M, you write this every so often…disaster is a strong word for a guy who essentially is learning how to be a starter.

    I don’t think anyone here knows a damn thing about Chamberlain’s desire, so that’s your own projection. I root for both guys, but apparently I’m in the minority of wanting to have two talented young arms anchoring the rotation over the next decade.

    If the Yankees stick Chamberlain into the pen, then Girardi and Cashman are irresponsible to the fullest.

    Whoever “loses” should go down to Scranton for a time to keep their innings up and then appear when/if an injury occurs. They can always be summoned late in the year if the bullpen needs a boost.

  86. m March 17th, 2010 at 8:22 pm

    Doreen,

    Washington said it was a first and only thing.

    I find that very difficult to believe. Like a sample just arrived in the mail and you decided to try it?

    He said he didn’t want to give any circumstances because it would sound like an excuse. Which leads me to believe that it was stress/work related or incidental use.

    But, get this, I read that he informed mlb about the incident before the positive result. :shock:

    Anyhoo, did he win manager of the year? or close to it?

  87. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 8:25 pm

    Would people agree with the following statements regarding PH and JC ?

    1) That JC has the better pure stuff but that Phil has generally better command/control, and possibly better makeup.

    2) That the cielings for both JC and PH haven’t been sufficiently explored yet.

    2) That all else equal between JC and PH this ST that Joba has the priority to start this season, i.e if it is deemed a tie that it is Joba’s position to lose.

  88. Pat M. March 17th, 2010 at 8:26 pm

    Bod….Are you taking the position that Chamberlain was not a disappointment last season, especilally down the stretch when his 4 inning blowouts were at the time vital to making the postseason ???? I’ll extract some of those foolish Joba starts where he was restricted to 60-70 pitches, but even then he was terrible…….My point is, today was a good outing and a cahnge in direction, but let’s not lose sight of what he was in 09…….He was a disappointment, and when Wang went down, so did he….

  89. randy l. March 17th, 2010 at 8:26 pm

    “I have to ask, why does Cervelli have this mark against him as if his full potential is a good back up at best?”

    8 home runs in 6 years might be a clue.

  90. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 8:26 pm

    Obviously I can’t count. 1,2,3. Not 1,2,2. Duh.

  91. SJ44 March 17th, 2010 at 8:28 pm

    I would argue it’s irresponsible to send one to Scranton.

    Hughes didn’t hurt himself going to the pen last year and Chamberlain wouldn’t be hurt going to the pen this year, if that’s how it shakes out.

    Going to Scranton makes no sense. They can learn nothing and in fact, you end up messing with their confidence.

    Neither guy is a AAA pitcher and neither belongs in AAA.

  92. Pat M. March 17th, 2010 at 8:28 pm

    MTU…..Take Joba’s best 5 starts, and take Hughes’s best 5 starts, and tell me who has the advantage…..Considering Joba has maybe 2 x as many starts to choose from….

  93. randy l. March 17th, 2010 at 8:33 pm

    doreen and m. -

    i spent a few months as a bullpen catcher in the same clubhouse with ron washington . he was the staring shortstop.

    my opinion of him is that he was a stand up no nonsense guy who played the game right and had the respect of the other players on the team.

    he’s a quality person.

  94. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 17th, 2010 at 8:33 pm

    m -

    interesting.

    I would tend not to believe the first and only thing. For his sake I hope is the last.

    He really has such respect throughout the game.

  95. m March 17th, 2010 at 8:34 pm

    No, Joba doesn’t have the priority. Who do you think is going to be the better starter? Based on what I saw last season, it’s going to be Hughes. He might not be an ace or have the ceiling of one, but he’s not going to fall apart out there.

    He works well with his battery-mate, he listens, and follows instructions.

    If they didn’t rush Wang back the second time (I believe as a result of Joba getting hit by a liner), Hughes would’ve been a starter for the rest of the season. Happenstance and poor-decision making prevented that from happening. So, even though Hughes was a great reliever, it’s not too far-fetched to say that he is a starter. And to punish him by putting him in the bullpen simply because he has a lower innings cap is not right imo.

  96. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 8:35 pm

    Pat M. -

    my position is that I want both PH and JC to succeed as starters.

    I have no interest in running down one at the expense of the other Pat (not sayin you do). None.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion of the two.

    I do not see PH as clearly superior to JC as you seem to.

    Both have had some tremendous moments.

    Hopefully they both reach their cielings and become frontline Yankee starters.

    I wish for nothing else.

    Please do not misunderstand my intentions with the questions above. :)

  97. Pat M. March 17th, 2010 at 8:35 pm

    Randy I, I was waiting for you imput on Washington as you’ve mentioned him a few times from those days…..All I ever heard about him was that he was a class act…..

  98. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 17th, 2010 at 8:37 pm

    randy l -

    When people are feeling desperate they do desperate things. And I have heard how well respected Washington was. I’ve heard him interviewed a few times and I liked the way he came across. I hope whatever caused him to go that route becomes better for him. And I sincerely hope he can find a better way to cope with whatever was bothering him.

    I really was surprised to hear it though. But people do all sorts of things because of stress.

  99. CB March 17th, 2010 at 8:40 pm

    With Hughes and Joba how you look at them is going to depend on what period of time you want to consider.

    People make a mistake when they only look at the immediate season prior and make decisions based on that alone.

    It’s more instructive to consider the prior 2-3 seasons.

    Joba was disappointing in 2009.

    Hughes was disappointing in 2008 – it was due to an injury but it was nonetheless disappointing.

    Of the two, Joba has had the best run as a starter. In 2008 he put up a 2.76 ERA over 12 straight starts. He was one of the single best pitchers in the AL during that time. Hughes has never had that level of success as a starter.

    At the same time Joba was not good in 2009 and Phil was much better – but that was out of the pen.

    It’s very close between them. Ultimately, I think much of it is going to depend on how they are throwing the ball going into the regular season.

  100. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 17th, 2010 at 8:41 pm

    Pat M.
    March 17th, 2010 at 8:26 pm
    Bod….Are you taking the position that Chamberlain was not a disappointment last season, especilally down the stretch when his 4 inning blowouts were at the time vital to making the postseason ???? I’ll extract some of those foolish Joba starts where he was restricted to 60-70 pitches, but even then he was terrible…….My point is, today was a good outing and a cahnge in direction, but let’s not lose sight of what he was in 09…….He was a disappointment, and when Wang went down, so did he….
    ======

    Let the man pitch.

    No, other than a couple of good stretches, he did not distinguish himself in his first full year of starting, if you can even call it that.

    He barely pitched in April, because they kept throwing Wang out there to get hammered. He was subject to a totally nuts schedule in July, the likes of which I’ve never seen used to develop a young starter.

    But how is it productive, or visionary in the slightest, in light of the goal of developing a young starter, to rush to judgment based on a a herky-jerky season for a raw kid whose learning on the job on the biggest stage in baseball?

    The solution is – make him the eighth inning guy?

    If Chamberlain has no physical hindrance, can ANYONE with a straight face advocate this and then, in the same breath, say they’re for developing a homegrown staff?

    It’s…ineffable.

  101. Pat M. March 17th, 2010 at 8:43 pm

    MTU, none taken, as I have great respect for you and your knowledge of the game and the Yanks…..Maybe I do get a tad defensive or offensive in these discussions….I mean I took a beating for a few years for being in the Hughes corner when 90 % here were sporting the Joba blinders and wanted Phil run out of town…..It was my assertion then as it is now, Phillip Hughes will be the better pitcher and will be a Star……I’ve always liken him to Catfish Hunter with his plus plus control……He’s going to be viewed as an artisic craftsman on the hill……Joba has lightening in his arm, how it translates in being a starter, that’s a big question mark in my mind, always has been

  102. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 8:48 pm

    Pat M-

    These two young men are like 2 precious jewels.

    each unique but neither less valuable than the other.

    IMO they both have great value and to truly manifest their brillance they need to be “cut” right.

    Hoping for the wise and steady hand to make that happen.

  103. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 8:48 pm

    M, I agree with you – except about Phil’s ceiling; I think he’s underrated in that regard.

    The only thing I would say in regard to Phil as a starter is that he has never enjoyed a stretch of games as did Joba where he could just go out and pitch. Unfortunately, he was injured and then, of course, he was in the pen last year. If he’d been left in the rotation, he would have been fine. People forget that Phil pitched an incredible game in Texas……I just think that most confuse velocity with ceiling.

  104. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 8:50 pm

    Pat M, don’t worry – if we have to take a beating, we’ll take it together. People consistently underrate Phil and his potential, which is amazing considering the fact that he was once the Yankees crown prince.

  105. SJ44 March 17th, 2010 at 8:50 pm

    The solution is to have him pitch at the major league level. He’s not a AAA pitcher. He gets nothing out if AAA.

    Also, the Yankees clearly base more value to the guy setting up Mo than they do a #6 or #7 starter.

    They showed that last year when they moved Hughes to the pen. They also seem to feel the same way this year since they said whomever isn’t the fifth starter is setting up Mo.

    In 1996, Mo pitched 120 innings (including the post-season) as a setup guy to John Wetteland.

    If Joba did that in 2010, he would get more out of that than starting in AAA and waiting for an injury.

  106. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 17th, 2010 at 8:52 pm

    MTU,

    There is a competition, designed by the Yankees, so comparisons are inevitable of the two pitchers.

    What gets me is people not rooting for both to succeed.

    How, how, HOW does it bode well for this organization’s future if one of our two young arms gets sacrificed to the bullpen?

    Is that even logical?

    I’m not even debating this anymore…I emailed Cashman earlier today about this…the man who has been preaching his pitching-centric, homegrown starter Yankee universe since 2007, wants to stash Joba Chamberlain, whom they’ve spent two years building up…in the bullpen?

    Who’s running this team?? Mike Francesa??

  107. CB March 17th, 2010 at 8:52 pm

    “I just think that most confuse velocity with ceiling.”

    Phil has much better command than Joba.

    When Joba is right, he has two pitches better than any pitch Phil throws.

    People are forgetting how good Joba was as a starter in 2008.

    That pitcher had a shot to be one of the 5 best pitchers in all of baseball.

    The real question now is whether Joba can get back to that level and if so what is the best route to get him there.

  108. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 8:53 pm

    I wish the Yankees had done that with Phil last year, but Joe insisted that Phil was a 1 inning guy only (well he didn’t say it, but his actions told the tale). I see no reason why Phil couldn’t be used like Mo last year OR this year…..same with Joba. It’s really the only thing to do if the Yankees want both in the rotation next year.

  109. blake March 17th, 2010 at 8:54 pm

    The #1 quality that dominant starting pitchers have is fastball command. Its the most important thing for any pitcher IMO. When Phil is right he has it. If he develops his secondary pitches I think his upside could be a #1. Doesn’t mean it will happen, lots of if’s have to come to pass for it to, but he does have that potential I think.

  110. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 8:54 pm

    “If Hughes is in pen this year, then hes back to what, 100-120 innings next year? Take another 2 years (!!) to stretch out again?”

    No, innings limits don’t go backwards.

  111. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 8:54 pm

    Bohdi-

    “I’m not even debating this anymore…I emailed Cashman earlier today about this…the man who has been preaching his pitching-centric, homegrown starter Yankee universe since 2007, wants to stash Joba Chamberlain, whom they’ve spent two years building up…in the bullpen?”

    Please share his response with me Bohdi if you receive one. :)

  112. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 8:57 pm

    CB, I’m not questioning Joba’s potential, but I still believe Phil is completely underrated as a talent because he doesn’t throw 96 MPH. I got a huge kick out of watching Phil throw his FB anywhere he wanted to last year and I thought he had terrific stuff anyway. He also has a terrific curveball – he just needs to gain consistency with it. It’s great that the Yankees spend time trying to get Joba to live up to his potential, but they owe it to Phil as well. If they can’t do that, then Phil belongs in another organization; it can’t all be about Joba.

  113. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 17th, 2010 at 8:59 pm

    MTU,

    I’m not going to receive a response, and I don’t need one.

    Just do the right thing.

    This guy is NOT going to throw the eighth inning and then snap back and start in 2011.

    I don’t even believe the rhetoric, if you want to know the truth.

    I think the Yanks are full of it, that one becomes a short reliever.

    Because they just can’t possibly be that daft.

  114. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 8:59 pm

    I hate even comparing the two. #1 pitchers come in all shapes and sizes……….

  115. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    Betsy-

    “It can’t be all about Joba.”

    It can’t be, and won’t be.

    Both must be handled with an eye to achieving their full potential.

    Nothing less is Satisfactory.

  116. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 9:03 pm

    “Bod….Are you taking the position that Chamberlain was not a disappointment last season, especilally down the stretch when his 4 inning blowouts were at the time vital to making the postseason ??”

    Disappointment and disaster are not the same thing.

    And using whatever website or internet tool you like, show me when start Chamberlain made down the stretch when the Yankees lead was in jeopardy?

  117. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 9:03 pm

    Bohdi-

    “Because they just can’t possibly be that daft.”

    Sure hope you are right.

    I want to believe that.

  118. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 9:04 pm

    MTU, that’s what I think. It’s not all about Phil, either, but Joba is the one fans seem to want to develop.

  119. CB March 17th, 2010 at 9:04 pm

    “In 1996, Mo pitched 120 innings (including the post-season) as a setup guy to John Wetteland. ”

    If they were able to get Joba (or Phil) 120 innings out of the pen that would be great.

    But the question is how they will do this.

    That is not going to happen if either of them are relegated to a traditional set up man role.

    At the rate he was used in the pen last year Hughes wouldn’t have come close to throwing 120 innings. He was used very exclusively as a one inning (or less) set up man.

    Hughes made 41 appearances out of the pen and only threw 51 innings last year.

    To get either Joba or Hughes up to 120 innings Girardi would have to completely rethink and recommit to how he wanted to use both the pen and the rotation.

  120. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 9:05 pm

    “but they owe it to Phil as well. If they can’t do that, then Phil belongs in another organization;”

    Let’s be clear. Yankees don’t owe any player anything, other than his paycheck. Yankees will use any player as they see fit until such a time major league rules allows that player to choose where he wants to play.

  121. XLJ March 17th, 2010 at 9:07 pm

    Hughes as a starter 5.22 era (141.1ip)
    Hughes as a reliever 1.40 era (51.1ip)

    Chamberlain as a starter 4.18 era (221.2ip)
    Chamberlain as a reliever 1.50 era (60 ip)

    Joba so far as been a much better major league starter than Hughes. And now that he is finally done with his inning restrictions the thought of putting him back in the bullpen is stupid.

    I hope they send Joba back to triple a if he doesn’t win the 5th spot and let him work as a starter.

  122. CB March 17th, 2010 at 9:07 pm

    Betsy,

    I’ve always thought that Hughes had frontline potential. Even when he was hurt I didn’t think much of it and didn’t change how I felt about his talent.

    That said – the legitimate factor with Phil has been that he was largely a two pitch pitcher until the middle of last year.

    Two pitch pitchers aren’t #1 starters.

    That’s why the development of his cutter and change are so important.

    If he dials down his change (still a big question…) then he truly does have #1 starter stuff.

  123. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 9:09 pm

    Let’s be very clear, UpStuckey – I don’t give a hoot what you have to say. CB’s comment was very telling and I think fans feel that way about Joba only. If you don’t care about developing a pitcher and you don’t think a team has a responsibility towards that end, then you you’re as ignorant as you claim I am. Have a nice evening – I’m through with you.

  124. blake March 17th, 2010 at 9:10 pm

    Bodh,
    If Hughes wins the 5th starter won’t he have done just that (pitched the 8th in 2009 and started in 2010? I do think if Joba is placed in the pen this year then there is a greater chance he stays there than there would be if Hughes were, but I don’t think its impossible or unrealistic to think Joba could set up this year and be stretched back out to start next. He’s 24, it wouldn’t be that big a deal and he may do so with greater confidence after a dominant year of relieving.

  125. Pat M. March 17th, 2010 at 9:11 pm

    Stuckey, You can play the verbal shell game all you want, I’m not into that…..Bottom line, he was a disappointment and he was he was a disaster for at least 1/3 of his starts……He should have been penciled in the rotation stable , or at least was expected to be a fixture for the rotation until his implosions last August & September….I like many would have found great delight watching the 2 headed monster of Hughes and Joba as Rotation mates for years to come……However there are some serious concerns for that happening……It would be nice though…..

  126. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 9:12 pm

    Joba Chamberlain has been a major league pitcher for 2 years a a couple of months, including two post-seasons, one of which resulted in a world championship.

    To suggest the Yankees are going to send him back to minor league life indefinitely is ludicrous. It’d be like if if your junior year of high school they decided to send ya back to the 8th grade.

    Not going to happen.

  127. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 9:14 pm

    “Stuckey, You can play the verbal shell game all you want, I’m not into that”

    Fair enough. Let’s then stick to the idea he made starts down the stretch when the Yankees post-season chances were in doubt.

    Can you give me those dates?

  128. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 9:15 pm

    CB, that’s very fair point. I really share Pat’s regret that Phil lost 2 years of developmental time – he could have been a lot farther ahead than he is now. I want you to know that I’m not criticizing Joba in terms of talent; he’s very, very gifted. I want Phil to start, I make no bones about it, but I also want both of them in the rotation. It seems like there is a statute of limitations on developing young pitchers – and there shouldn’t be. It takes time and patience – and in the end, the rewards will be great. I can only say that I hope the Yankees won’t decide on Joba as a reliever until they have given him every opportunity to fail as a starter.

  129. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 9:19 pm

    “I don’t give a hoot what you have to say.”

    What you give a “hoot” about is irrelevant to the point at hand.

    “If you don’t care about developing a pitcher and you don’t think a team has a responsibility towards that end, then you you’re as ignorant as you claim I am.”

    You’re jumping to conclusions, The Yankees responsibility is to develop players to better service the organization, not some fan’s idea of what their personal careers should be.

    In 2009 Phil Hughes was a dominant major league pitcher, stayed healthy all year (a first in some time) and integral to the Yankees winning a championship. That’s a highly successful year of development by any reasonable standard.

  130. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 9:20 pm

    CB, how good does Phil’s change have to be for him to be a#1 type? Very good? Decent? Solid? Slightly better than garbage?

  131. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 17th, 2010 at 9:20 pm

    I have no interest in what’s “owed” players.

    This is about developing a pitching staff for the duration.

    We’ve had a desert for a long time because people at the top have lacked vision and/or were forced to cater to the whims of an out-of-touch owner.

    I thought winning was supposed to buy us some time to ease in the younger guys.

    The Hughes thing worked out last season serendipitously. It was not, however, a career calling, just as 2007 wasn’t for Chamberlain.

    A career in the bullpen is entirely different than having the right arm at the right time in a particular season en route to a championship.

  132. Pat M. March 17th, 2010 at 9:21 pm

    No Stuckey, YOU look them up !!!!! I just remember watching his starts, especially when Wang finally went down, Pettite struggling, and Joba did not come up big…..He was getting shellacked and didn’t even make it out of the 3rd / 4th innings……BS on the semantics of your defense , I do not ever take my eye off the ball…..He was horrible in August & September……So bad, that they had to go with a 3 man rotation……He was one of the least effective starters in all of baseball down the stretch….Forget about the horendous outings in late May & June…….

  133. CB March 17th, 2010 at 9:21 pm

    Joba was terrible at the end of last year and clearly decreased the team’s chances to win the world series because they felt compelled to go to a 3 man rotation in the playoffs rather than trust Joba with the ball.

    Fortunately, the yankees didn’t get extended in the playoffs so other than CC they were able to minimize how often the staff needed to throw on three days rest.

    But that was the club winning despite Joba – not because of him.

    Joba had a disappointing year last year. Maybe it was the innings limit and the dance around that. But his stuff, command and pitchability were down all year.

    Even for a young pitcher developing – last year was not a good one for Joba even given the context.

  134. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 9:21 pm

    Stuckey, ok, I’m not so done with you.

    I agree with your last paragraph. However, don’t you think that developing a pitcher to his full potential leads to greater team success? If Phil and/or Joba are developed fully, they will likely end up as very good SP, which his the best possible outcome for the Yankees.

  135. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 17th, 2010 at 9:23 pm

    And now that he is finally done with his inning restrictions the thought of putting him back in the bullpen is stupid.
    ====

    Talk about the unvarnished truth.

    There it is.

  136. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 9:24 pm

    By the way, I admit I’ve said that Phil’s stint in the pen was a waste, but that was before the point was made that the confidence he gained in that role was greater than anything he could have gotten out of starting in AAA. My question remains about 2010 because I do think another stint as set-up man would hinder his development as a starter. IMO, that’s not good for the Yankees. I think CB’s plan for either Joba or Phil in the pen is a very good one, but my gut feeling is that that’s not the way it would play out.

  137. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 9:24 pm

    “I really share Pat’s regret that Phil lost 2 years of developmental time – he could have been a lot farther ahead than he is now.”

    Again, a conclusion based on a dubious premise impossible to support with any empirical evidence.

    He pitched 4 months of major league baseball to the tune of a 1.40 ERA, yet to some fans relieving might as well be cricket when it comes to “developing” as a starter.

    Phil Hughes was very, VERY good and healthy for the longest stretch of his major league career, yet someone some regard this as “lost time”.

    I’ll (as always) ask anyone to please explain why when it comes to Phil Hughes career, May-September 2009 not only don’t count, but are considered a black hole of sorts…?

    Anyone?

  138. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 9:27 pm

    Stuckey, if Phil hadn’t gotten hurt two years in a row, he’d be in the rotation now and helping the team. I don’t dispute what he gained out of being in the pen, but by the same token, how can you dispute that Phil lost a lot of time via the injuries?

  139. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 9:28 pm

    Not that he didn’t help the team last year, but he’d be a solid member of the rotation.

  140. 7789 March 17th, 2010 at 9:28 pm

    Joba is a competitor. He got challenged before todays start by Girardi and Eiland and he once again answered the bell. The kid is a bulldog.

    Hughes is a mental midget. He choked in the playoffs. He went from being a 1996 version of Mariano Rivera to Byung-Hyun Kim against the yankees. No surprise Girardi trusted Joba in the postseason over Hughes, even though Joba struggled at the end of the season and Hughes was lights out.

    Girardi needs to go with his instincts and give the 5th spot to Joba. Who cares about Hughes I agree with Sherman trade him for Span.

  141. CB March 17th, 2010 at 9:29 pm

    “how good does Phil’s change have to be for him to be a#1 type? Very good? Decent? Solid? Slightly better than garbage?”

    Betsy,

    I believe it was last year at this time you asked me a question about Phil’s fastball velocity and why the team had “changed his mechanics.”

    At the time I told you that I didn’t think they’d changed his mechanics at all – rather Phil had literally lost two years of building experience and arm strength and that’s why his stuff was down compared to what it was in the minors (not that he was ever a guy who sat 95+ even in the minors).

    So I’ve been there all along – Phil’s problem were just not getting innings. I wasn’t ever really worried about him.

    And what the biggest thing that did were to set back development of his third and fourth pitch.

    How good Phil’s change needs to be really depends on how good his cutter is/becomes. If his cutter continues to get better and that turns out to be his third pitch then his change just needs to be league average.

    His cutter does have room to improve, however. That pitch is effective because it moves the ball off the sweet part of the bat. I hope that he starts missing more bats with it. That’s the next level for his cutter.

    Regarding his change – go back and look at the start this spring that Phil made against Tampa. Take a look at the at bat against Zobrist when he threw him two change ups in a row.

    If Phil can throw his change up consistently the way he threw Zobrist that second change in that at bat – he has a real shot to be a Cy Young winner.

  142. Pat M. March 17th, 2010 at 9:30 pm

    Stuckey, Extract that debacle in Baltimore, and Hughes’s era is 3.5….At this point in time, the Yanks are no longer looking exclusively at potential, they’re looking for upside improving results….Joba may not offer that to them for the start of the 2010 season…..

  143. randy l. March 17th, 2010 at 9:31 pm

    “Again, a conclusion based on a dubious premise impossible to support with any empirical evidence.”

    would you consider a punch to your forehead empirical evidence? :)

  144. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 17th, 2010 at 9:32 pm

    blake
    March 17th, 2010 at 9:10 pm
    Bodh,
    If Hughes wins the 5th starter won’t he have done just that (pitched the 8th in 2009 and started in 2010? I do think if Joba is placed in the pen this year then there is a greater chance he stays there than there would be if Hughes were, but I don’t think its impossible or unrealistic to think Joba could set up this year and be stretched back out to start next. He’s 24, it wouldn’t be that big a deal and he may do so with greater confidence after a dominant year of relieving.
    ====

    I disagree. If he is the eighth inning guy, he’s not going to be able to be a full-time starter in 2011.

    Look, there is nothing wrong with either guy going to AAA to keep themselves stretched out and building arm strength.

    Both are talented young arms, but neither is a finished product. The Red Sox started Buchholz off in the minors last season if I remember rightly, to work on his command issues.

    When they needed a starter, a much more economical version of the pitcher showed up at Fenway.

    We will need that sixth starter at some point during the season, so it’s not as if Joba/Hughes will be adrift at Triple A all season long, severed from the Mother Club.

  145. blake March 17th, 2010 at 9:34 pm

    “I disagree. If he is the eighth inning guy, he’s not going to be able to be a full-time starter in 2011.”

    why

  146. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 9:36 pm

    ‘No Stuckey, YOU look them up !!!!!”

    Okay… on August 16th 2009, Chamberlain threw up this 5.0 7 4 4 in a 10-3 loss in Seattle, the first games the Yankees lost in 6 Chamberlain starts since the All-Star break.

    At the start of the day they enjoyed a 7.5 game lead on Boston (which they’d still enjoy after the loss).

    They were never threatened by Boston the remainder of the season.

    You’re welcome.

  147. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 9:38 pm

    I fear that not even the wisdom of Solomon could solve our 5th starter debate.

    But I wish he were here to try. :)

  148. Jerkface March 17th, 2010 at 9:38 pm

    “I really share Pat’s regret that Phil lost 2 years of developmental time – he could have been a lot farther ahead than he is now.”

    Again, a conclusion based on a dubious premise impossible to support with any empirical evidence.

    I don’t think you could argue that if Hughes had been able to pitch full seasons in the majors in 2007 and 2008 he wouldn’t be further ahead right now.

    Not sure what you’re getting it. I don’t think anyone discounts Hughes relieving in terms of being a confidence booster/helping him pitch in the majors, but its not the same as starting.

  149. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 9:40 pm

    CB, I remember our conversation (thank you, by the way, for taking the time to answer my questions. I feel like the only way to learn is by asking, so….I ask, lol). I need to stay away from other reactionary boards that blame the Yankees for ruining Joba or Phil due to the lack of velocity. All that does is make me worry and heaven knows I’m trying to avoid that.

    That change to Zobrist was beautiful – I’m going to see if I can find that video somewhere because I’m sure I taped over the game. I’m happy as long as he has the confidence to throw it and I have felt all along that he would develop at least a decent one. I believe that hard work eventually gets rewarded and, with his aptitude for pitching, there’s no way that a change would elude Phil.

    AS to the cutter, well – he’s got the man to learn from. Remember the 1999 WS when Mo basically made Ryan Klesko look ridiculous? I think Mo broke 3 bats – and Chipper Jones couldn’t stop laughing. It would be nice to see Phil get his cutter to be like that, but if it’s half as good, that will be fine.

  150. Pat M. March 17th, 2010 at 9:40 pm

    Tin Cup…I just fell off my chair with great laughter…..

  151. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 9:41 pm

    “I agree with your last paragraph. However, don’t you think that developing a pitcher to his full potential leads to greater team success? If Phil and/or Joba are developed fully, they will likely end up as very good SP, which his the best possible outcome for the Yankees.”

    Yes. I do agree. But we both know unless a prolong injury occurs to Sabathia, Burnett, Pettitte or Vasquez, that won’t be this year.

    Where you and I disagree is that either Chamberlain and/or Hughes spending any significant time in the minor leagues in 2010 is best for either of them OR the New York Yankees.

  152. randy l. March 17th, 2010 at 9:42 pm

    “How good Phil’s change needs to be really depends on how good his cutter is/becomes. If his cutter continues to get better and that turns out to be his third pitch then his change just needs to be league average.”

    cb-

    i think hughes is easier to teach new pitches that will stick than joba.

    hughes mechanics are so solid that he has a base to add to .

    when he adds he’s not changing everything he’s been doing.

    so you can see slow but steady progression.

    this is what we’ve seen with lester who also has solid mechanics.

    joba being relatively new to pitching doesn’t have that solid mechanical base.

    we saw his follow through totally change from pitch to pitch in the videos earlier today.

    when someone like joba adds something, it changes what he was doing before with his other pitches.

    so the slider improves , then the fastball suffers. when the fastball is worked on the slider suffers.

    what’s needed ideally is solid mechanics that are a base to add to without everything going haywire when a new pitch or new pitch emphasis is added.

    or he can go to the bullpen where he doesn’t have to use more than two primary pitches.

  153. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 9:42 pm

    Here’s my bracket:

    { Phil Hughes + Joba Chamberlain = Starting pitchers}

  154. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 17th, 2010 at 9:43 pm

    blake
    March 17th, 2010 at 9:34 pm
    “I disagree. If he is the eighth inning guy, he’s not going to be able to be a full-time starter in 2011.”
    why
    ===
    Because short relief is not going to offer him enough opportunity to build his arm up.

    It’d be one thing if they were going to make him the long man/swing man, ala Aceves, but they’re not going to do that.

    And bullpen work is highly unpredictable. It comes out of circumstantial need. Forget it – a year as the setup man is a year wasted for Chamberlain.

  155. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 9:43 pm

    Speaking of Solomon, I think Phil and Joba should be cut in half. Use Phil’s upper body and Joba’s lower (or reverse it), glue them together (or sew them together, whatever) and then they can both be in the rotation at the same time.

  156. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 9:43 pm

    “Not sure what you’re getting it. I don’t think anyone discounts Hughes relieving in terms of being a confidence booster/helping him pitch in the majors, but its not the same as starting.”

    Simple. No one can offer any evidence the purely speculative notion that if Hughes spends most of 2010 as a starter that he won’t be as good as he could have been had be been a starter all of 2009.

    What if he wins the job and is VERY good this year?

    Where does that leave the argument that lost “development” time?

  157. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 9:45 pm

    Stuckey, I’m fine with them not going to AAA as long as they could get their innings in here. I don’t think it is in their best long-term interests (or the team’s) for either one of them to be a 1 inning set-up man. I do think the Yankees need to get creative……

  158. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 9:45 pm

    “would you consider a punch to your forehead empirical evidence? :)”

    If it were you throwing said punch I’m not sure I’d notice enough to consider it anything…

    ZING!!!!

  159. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 17th, 2010 at 9:45 pm

    IMO Phil needs an effective pitch to get out LH. As a starter in the ML and at the higher levels of the minor leagues his splits for LHs are concerning in terms of his upside.

  160. Jerkface March 17th, 2010 at 9:47 pm

    What if he wins the job and is VERY good this year?

    Where does that leave the argument that lost “development” time?

    Then I’d probably think, “Dang, we might have won the world series in 07 and 08 if we had a full strength Hughes”

  161. blake March 17th, 2010 at 9:47 pm

    Bodh,

    We’ll just have to disagree on this one. They could build his arm back over the winter and during ST. (Hughes is doing it). He would be 25 by then and not under the same innings restrictions. I don’t see them sending either one of them to AAA for any significant amount of time. They are too valuable to the 2010 goal which is winning #28.

  162. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 9:48 pm

    Betsy-

    “Speaking of Solomon, I think Phil and Joba should be cut in half. Use Phil’s upper body and Joba’s lower (or reverse it), glue them together (or sew them together, whatever) and then they can both be in the rotation at the same time.”

    I thought only rose bushes got grafted ?

    How about the mythical Minotaur.

    The front end is Phil and the rear Joba. :)

  163. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 9:48 pm

    Stuckey, if Phil had not been hurt in 2007 and 2008, by now he could be a top young starter. Right now, he’s more about potential than performance – which is ok, as he’s young. It’s just frustrating – but I try not to look back because what good would that do? I just try and remember to be grateful that Phil did not injure his arm trying to compensate for his leg injuries.

  164. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 9:48 pm

    Betsy. Don’t disagree. I believe hughes was handled somewhat with kid gloves last year because he has a injury history and the regime of relieving was an unknown to him and the Yankees.

    I also advocate either pitcher being used around 90-100 regular season innings if at all possible.

    btw – for the record. I hope the pitcher who is best prepared to be a starter in 2010 “wins.” I don’t have a rooting interest. Though I will say if all things are equal (they’re BOTH very good here on in) I’d probably root for Chamberlain and root for him to succeed just to put the issue to rest once and for all.

  165. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 9:49 pm

    MTU, you said it – I didn’t, lol.

  166. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 9:51 pm

    “Right now, he’s more about potential than performance”

    That’s one way of looking at it. I think whatever role Hughes plays this year he will perform based on his talent level. I’m of the personal opinion (and it’s just that I acknowledge) that starter or reliever, 2009 exactly as it happened was the best thing that could ever happen to him.

  167. blake March 17th, 2010 at 9:52 pm

    “IMO Phil needs an effective pitch to get out LH.”

    insert change up and cutter.

  168. randy l. March 17th, 2010 at 9:53 pm

    pat m-

    i thought you might like that.

    sitting in the bullpen one time at McKechnie Field a pitcher( mickey mahler or ken kravitz maybe) told the story of another pitcher who one time had asked a catcher to catch him .

    the catcher said he was too tired and the pitcher again asked him to catch him.

    the catcher said he just didn’t feel like it.

    the pitcher then hit him hard in the forehead with the palm of his hand and asked him again if he would catch him.

    the catcher said ok and caught him.

    one of the best places to watch a baseball game is sitting in the bullpen.

  169. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 17th, 2010 at 9:53 pm

    blake,

    Given Joba’s penchant for getting out of whack – Joba with hitch, Joba Unhitched, Straight-legged Joba, Striding Joba, etc. – wouldn’t it make more sense, if Hughes wins the fifth spot, to have Joba go down and actually work on those things?

    This is a talented arm, but it’s not a polished one yet. Yet the arm has flashed what it will look like polished.

    One part of Joba’s game that’s underrated is his fielding. Joba Chamberlain gets a lot of off-color comments in here about his weight, appetite, etc.

    Those dingbats haven’t watched him field a baseball, apparently.

    Chamberlain has a ton of ability. Why not hit the reset button and let him get his mechanical house in order, so that he actually progresses as a starting pitcher? Where better to get a handle on that than the minors – where he can also stay stretched out and be ready when/if injury occurs on the big club?

  170. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 9:53 pm

    Stuckey, sometimes I feel like fans are almost forced to choose between Phil and Joba. I don’t claim to be objective as I do have a rooting interest, but……I feel badly about it because I also want Joba to succeed. Even though maybe I’m harsh on him, I think he’s a good kid with a good heart. I’m really glad that he looked so good today – that’s good news, period, whether he ends up in the rotation or the pen.

  171. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 9:55 pm

    Stuckey, you could be right. I believe Phil feels that being in the pen gave him the confidence to get major leaguers out…..and maybe that confidence is what’s helping him feel comfortable developing a change? He got to spend time lounging around with Mo, looking cool as a cucumber – it wasn’t a bad life for him out there.

  172. randy l. March 17th, 2010 at 9:55 pm

    “If it were you throwing said punch I’m not sure I’d notice enough to consider it anything…”

    maybe we should do an empirical test :)

  173. CB March 17th, 2010 at 9:55 pm

    “i think hughes is easier to teach new pitches that will stick than joba.”

    randy,

    I completely agree. Part of me is still surprised that Phil hasn’t developed a 4-5 pitch arsenal like Lester already but then I have to remind myself that he missed those two years.

    Phil has tremendous mechanics. He is robotic out there. He repeats his delivery at an elite level.

    There was a great article in the Hardball times in 2008 I think about Hughes.

    Basically what the article said was that Hughes had such a ridiculously consistent release point the writer was actually suggesting that perhaps Hughes’ problems were due to him having too small a release point zone and in turn a lack of deception.

    (BTW – that article was also a good example of how statistics can lead to errors unless they are backed up by a solid foundation of concepts. Repeating mechanics so efficiently that you produce an tremendously consistent release point is a problem? That’s just nonsensical).

    So I think Hughes is going to become a true 4 pitch pitcher.

    The thing that’s concerned me some is – as you well know – the change is just a real feel pitch. Some guys never dial it down. They just don’t have that feel.

    And i really want hughes to develop a change – not another 3rd pitch. I really want to see his third pitch become a change because a quality change is just devastating. It is such a great pitch.

    So that’s why I was real happy to see him throw those change ups to Zobrist.

    If Hughes has thrown those kind of quality change ups – we know that at least he does have the feel.

    And now the challenge is consistency.

    But as you’ve pointed out – given how solid his mechanics are he will develop consistency with that pitch.

    Joba’s mechanics really aren’t great. The good thing with him however is that he already throws 4 good pitches. His curve and change up have been very good pitches in the past.

    If Joba was only a two pitch pitcher right now – I wouldn’t feel very good about his prospects to be a starter at all because I wouldn’t think he’d do well trying to expand his repertoire with his mechanics. With Hughes I’m not nearly as concerned about him developing pitches 3 and 4.

    With Joba though consistency is just a real question – and that’s because of his mechanics and his ability to repeat his delivery.

  174. blake March 17th, 2010 at 9:58 pm

    “Given Joba’s penchant for getting out of whack – Joba with hitch, Joba Unhitched, Straight-legged Joba, Striding Joba, etc. – wouldn’t it make more sense, if Hughes wins the fifth spot, to have Joba go down and actually work on those things?”

    In a perfect world yea. I just think it will be too tempting for them to keep him in NY. The priority for the Yankees is always this year. They have said several times they will be taking the best 12 guys north, and Joba is one of the 12 best.

  175. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 9:59 pm

    “Stuckey, if Phil hadn’t gotten hurt two years in a row, he’d be in the rotation now and helping the team. I don’t dispute what he gained out of being in the pen, but by the same token, how can you dispute that Phil lost a lot of time via the injuries?”

    I’m not. They won the World Series in 2009. That’s the best possible result. In 2010 I think:

    1.) The 5th starter won’t mean a hoot.

    2.) If Hughes IS the 5th starter, I think he’ll be very good.

    In short, I’m struggling to find a downside to all of this.

  176. Pat M. March 17th, 2010 at 10:00 pm

    Randy I, I’ve heard over the years that the pen is by far the best place to watch and enjoy the game with the dudes……Close group of zanies…….Bathroom’s are a challenge…….Your breakdown on Hughes and Joba is the best and clearest discription to date……..Joba has too many moving parts going in too many directions too often……The few guys I know in oraganizations ( Dodgers / Angels / Giants ) all say that Hughes is going to be a front of the roatation pitcher who is going to be a very special pitcher in the Bigs……I still believe this to be true……He’s so sound, and off the charts control…..He’ll just keep getting better every season from now on

  177. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 10:03 pm

    I’ve never seen a pitcher repeat his mechanics like Mo – talk about robotic.

    As to Phil, I think his mechanics and build (tall, strong lower body) were considered major pluses when he was considered the best pitching prospect in the game. I guess simpler is better – I assume Phil has simple, clean mechanics, something that can’t be said for Joba?

    Stuckey, no downside, but it still sucks that Phil was hurt – that was brutal to watch (the 2007 injury, that is).

  178. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 10:05 pm

    “maybe we should do an empirical test :)”

    Just be sure to do your stretching exercises beforehand, I don’t want you breaking a hip or something.

  179. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 17th, 2010 at 10:05 pm

    blake
    March 17th, 2010 at 9:58 pm
    “Given Joba’s penchant for getting out of whack – Joba with hitch, Joba Unhitched, Straight-legged Joba, Striding Joba, etc. – wouldn’t it make more sense, if Hughes wins the fifth spot, to have Joba go down and actually work on those things?”

    In a perfect world yea. I just think it will be too tempting for them to keep him in NY. The priority for the Yankees is always this year. They have said several times they will be taking the best 12 guys north, and Joba is one of the 12 best.
    ===

    But this is a perfect world: the Yankees have many answers to the bridge to Rivera.

    They have D-Rob, Aceves, Melancon – they even have Joba/Hughes, because the “loser”
    can make a deus ex machina entrance into the bullpen in September if we don’t have a better baton passer.

    Hell, if Christian Garcia stays healthy all year – it would be a first, of course – throw his arm into the late innings derby – that’s a polished arm if ever there was one.

  180. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 10:05 pm

    I wonder why Phil dropped down to the Yankees if he was so good in HS. I think the Angels actually were thinking of drafting him – fortunately, they didn’t.

  181. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 17th, 2010 at 10:06 pm

    Sending one of Joba or Hughes to AAA to start the season is not absurd, because either way they are not going to have much of an impact on the big league club for the 1-2 months they are down there. Having D-Rob pitch the 8th inning instead of Joba/Hughes likely does not even show up in the standings.

    Additionally, both of these guys have questions regarding their upside as SP going forward (assuming the plan is for both of them to be SP long term). Primarily Joba’s mechanics and Phil’s 3rd/4th pitch.

    Joba needs to be able to repeat his delivery/have consistent mechanics for 6-8 innings at a time. Not one inning. Phil needs to develop the quality of his 3rd/4th pitch. The first time one of Phil’s changeups get crushed as a RP you can bet he not throwing it again. Both of these guys can benefit from more time in AAA or as I see it, an extended Spring Training. It would not be about the results or statistics but about so many of the other factors we have been examining from these starts.

    Neither of these guys would spend the whole year in AAA and neither will really be missed from the big league club. Like someone else mentioned Bucholz time down there to start the season really seemed to benefit him last year.

  182. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 17th, 2010 at 10:06 pm

    stuckey,

    Please accept this in the best possible way: you have a little Polonius in you :D.

  183. Jerkface March 17th, 2010 at 10:07 pm

    I would believe that Hughes robo-mechanics could present a problem. The chart that the guy used to go along with his hypothesis showed that his fastball and curveball releases were so different that the supposition was that he’d tip the pitch based on his hand positioning.

    I could believe that, but I’d want to see all the data on other pitchers before I would agree with it.

  184. blake March 17th, 2010 at 10:10 pm

    “But this is a perfect world: the Yankees have many answers to the bridge to Rivera.”

    Thats all true but the pen would be better with one of Joba/Hughes out there and both have said they would rather pitch out of the pen in NY than go back to the minors. I’m not saying that it wouldn’t be good to let Joba iron things out in AAA if he isn’t named the 5th starter and they still want him to start, but I just don’t think thats what they will do.

  185. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 10:13 pm

    Bohdi-

    “Please accept this in the best possible way: you have a little Polonius in you”.

    I was thinking more Star Trek.

    Like Spock. :)

  186. Pat M. March 17th, 2010 at 10:13 pm

    I believe that Cashman has concerns about Rivera this season…..He’ll be used with great discrection this season……Deep bullpen for 2101

  187. blake March 17th, 2010 at 10:15 pm

    “I believe that Cashman has concerns about Rivera this season…..He’ll be used with great discrection this season……Deep bullpen for 2101″

    agreed, I think they want the pen as deep and effective as possible to protect Mo and keep him fresh for the postseason. Hey Rivera might still be pitching in 2101 ;)

  188. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 17th, 2010 at 10:16 pm

    MTU,

    LOL.

    But Spock IS logical, whereas, Polonius only THINKS he is… :D. (JK Stuckey).

  189. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 10:16 pm

    LGY, give Phil a little more credit than that; I don’t think he expects to be throwing perfect change-ups all the time. He’s gotten tattooed on bad curves or FB, like every pitcher; why would he feel differently about a change?

  190. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 17th, 2010 at 10:17 pm

    Fine with me – preserve Mo’s arm at all costs.

  191. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 17th, 2010 at 10:17 pm

    Polonius: “My lord, I will take my leave of you.”

    Hamlet: “You cannot, sir, take from me anything I would more willingly part withal…”

    :D.

  192. blake March 17th, 2010 at 10:18 pm

    Hey Jeter made the All- Irish team on MLB tonight (his mother is Irish)

  193. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 10:22 pm

    Bohdi-

    Got ya.

    With respect to JC and PH.

    Hoping that the black hole which is win now with its massive and irresistible gravity does not overcome our 2 young stars causing implosion.

    The G-dZone will give me peace no matter what. :)

  194. CB March 17th, 2010 at 10:25 pm

    “I would believe that Hughes robo-mechanics could present a problem. The chart that the guy used to go along with his hypothesis showed that his fastball and curveball releases were so different that the supposition was that he’d tip the pitch based on his hand positioning.”

    But that’s not the argument and/ or conclusions the author was trying to derive from data. He was saying the opposite. He wasn’t saying that Hughes was “tipping” his pitches. He was saying that Hughes ability to repeat his deliver and consistently repeat his release point was causing a lack of deception:

    “In fact, you have to wonder if his release point is too consistent. The way he is throwing right now, the batter knows exactly where the ball is coming from. That might be helping him pick up the ball earlier and give him more time to determine the pitch type.”

    This is a hypothesis with very low face validity and seems to me a set up for a type I error.

  195. CB March 17th, 2010 at 10:26 pm

    Link to that article:

    http://www.hardballtimes.com/m.....il-hughes/

  196. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 17th, 2010 at 10:27 pm

    blake
    March 17th, 2010 at 10:10 pm
    “But this is a perfect world: the Yankees have many answers to the bridge to Rivera.”
    ====
    Thats all true but the pen would be better with one of Joba/Hughes out there and both have said they would rather pitch out of the pen in NY than go back to the minors. I’m not saying that it wouldn’t be good to let Joba iron things out in AAA if he isn’t named the 5th starter and they still want him to start, but I just don’t think thats what they will do.
    ====

    Right, and if that’s not what they will do, then I have lost confidence in the people steering the ship.

    Because I don’t believe D-Rob, Melancon, Aceves are a bunch of yeoman – they all can get the job done and actually, all three have better consistent command than Joba does at this point.

    And like I said, Joba/Hughes (whomever is not the fifth starter) can help fortify the bullpen later in the season – when did Hughes enter the bullpen? It was rather late in the game, as I recall.

    So, if the Yankees choose to replicate or marginally boost what is already a strength at the expense of a year’s worth of arm/endurance building, mechanical tweaking/sustaining, then they are fools, because they can actually accomplish both in the same year.

    Unfortunately, it’s not out of the question that they are stupid. I would like to think otherwise, of course. I lived through the Righetti years…where he went to the bullpen and we won no pennants…

  197. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 17th, 2010 at 10:29 pm

    The G-dZone will give me peace no matter what.
    ===

    And me :D.

  198. Pat M. March 17th, 2010 at 10:31 pm

    CB, The Hughes you see today is just about the same as you would have seen 10 years ago, and even 13 year ago when I first saw him…..His mechanics, from his wideup to his follow thru is all the same…..It’s as if he was programmed as a little leaguer

  199. Tarheelyank March 17th, 2010 at 10:32 pm

    Repost
    I am with MTU and Bodhi the Yankees are a better team with BOTH Phil and Joba starting.

    Is this possible?
    Week 1
    CC
    AJ Joba’s throw day he’s available for long relief
    Vaz
    Andy
    Phil

    Week 2
    CC
    AJ
    Vaz Andy’s throw day he’s available for long relief
    Phil
    Joba

    Week 3
    CC
    AJ Phil’s throw day he’s available for long relief
    Vaz
    Joba
    Andy

    Etc. You get the idea. Kind of a hybrid 6 man. Limits Andy’s innings, and keeps both Phil and Joba stretched out.

  200. blake March 17th, 2010 at 10:35 pm

    Bodhi,

    I guess we’ll just have to see how it plays out. Quotes from Girardi, Cashman, etc would suggest that both will stay with the Yankees but that doesn’t mean its set in stone. I do think they want the pen as deep and strong as possible to limit the workload on Rivera.

  201. randy l. March 17th, 2010 at 10:41 pm

    ” I’ve heard over the years that the pen is by far the best place to watch and enjoy the game with the dudes……Close group of zanies…”

    pat m-

    the humor is hard to explain but it’s a very funny place.

    and stuff just comes out of the blue.

    one day in the middle of another game at McKechnie while sitting on the bullpen bench that is on the right field warning track in play, nettles who’s out there for some reason yells” first one who moves is a weenie ” when a laser is sent in our direction (actually he used another word, but i can’t say it on the blog )( just think what he’d call bill lee).

    anyway he was sitting right next to me on my right as the cruise missile was rapidly approaching. the ball , the right fielder, and my head seem to be on a collision course.

    nettles repeated ” no one moves”.

    i hang in there for all i’m worth, but i duck at the last millisecond as the ball misses my head by millimeters and crashes into the wall and the right fielder is on top of us picking up the ball.

    nettles just looks at me lying on the ground and says” you _ _ _ _ _ ! ” as everyone on the bullpen bench is in hysterics including the right fielder.

    typical bullpen humor.

  202. Jerkface March 17th, 2010 at 10:42 pm

    “I would believe that Hughes robo-mechanics could present a problem. The chart that the guy used to go along with his hypothesis showed that his fastball and curveball releases were so different that the supposition was that he’d tip the pitch based on his hand positioning.”

    But that’s not the argument and/ or conclusions the author was trying to derive from data. He was saying the opposite. He wasn’t saying that Hughes was “tipping” his pitches. He was saying that Hughes ability to repeat his deliver and consistently repeat his release point was causing a lack of deception:

    “In fact, you have to wonder if his release point is too consistent. The way he is throwing right now, the batter knows exactly where the ball is coming from. That might be helping him pick up the ball earlier and give him more time to determine the pitch type.”

    This is a hypothesis with very low face validity and seems to me a set up for a type I error.

    Uh thats exactly what I said. Lack of deception, hitter picking up the ball earlier, determine pitch type = tip the pitch. Deception is important. Hughes robo delivery might remove deception. Everyone knows pitchers survive on deception, stuff, control, whatever.

    I could agree with that, but I’d want to see the release points for a bunch of successful pitchers as well.

  203. Jerkface March 17th, 2010 at 10:43 pm

    He wasn’t saying that Hughes was “tipping” his pitches. He was saying that Hughes ability to repeat his deliver and consistently repeat his release point was causing a lack of deception

    ==

    My point was that these are the same thing. If his curve is always released above his shoulder, and his fastball is always released to the left and lower of that position. A hitter will know which pitch is which.

  204. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 17th, 2010 at 10:44 pm

    Good enough, Blake.

    TarheelYank – the Yanks are not as creative as you are!

    They’ll be loathe to toss the book away, like most management types temporarily occupying the catbird seat.

    Pity.

  205. Pat M. March 17th, 2010 at 10:44 pm

    Trust me, release point consistancy is not going to tip pitches at all…..That’s crazy…

  206. Jerkface March 17th, 2010 at 10:47 pm

    Trust me, release point consistancy is not going to tip pitches at all…..That’s crazy…

    -

    Then how would ANYTHING tip a pitch, Pat? You’re telling me, a hitter is going to notice a slight bulge in a glove and know a splits coming, but they aren’t going to pick up that a pitcher always goes over the top on a curve and 3 quarters for a fastball?

  207. Pat M. March 17th, 2010 at 10:47 pm

    Jerkface, have you ever faced a Professional baseball pitcher ????? This maybe just a little out of your area of expertise……If a pitcher is hitting his spots, even if you know where the target is, most ( 80 % ) of hitters are not going to make good contact…..

  208. randy l. March 17th, 2010 at 10:48 pm

    “Just be sure to do your stretching exercises beforehand, I don’t want you breaking a hip or something.”

    why would i hit your hip if i was aiming at your forehead ?

    of course you head is up your butt a lot , so i guess it’s possible :)

  209. CB March 17th, 2010 at 10:48 pm

    “Lack of deception, hitter picking up the ball earlier, determine pitch type = tip the pitch.”

    This isn’t the common understanding of “tipping” a pitch is.

    Tipping a pitch doesn’t come from “lack of deception.”

    Tipping a pitch is actively doing something different between one pitch and another. That’s tipping a pitch.

    That article was arguing that Hughes does thing exactly the same which is making it easier to pick up the pitch.

    Those are completely different things.

    The notion that repeating mechanics hurts a pitcher is a tenuous hypothesis at best.

  210. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 10:53 pm

    To thine own self be true, Bod. To thine own self be true….

  211. Jerkface March 17th, 2010 at 10:53 pm

    You know what, I should have re-read the article before going off memory. I remembered his release point as being varied between his fastball and his curve, but they’re actually about the same. Thus rendering my idea moot.

    My argument makes sense if you imagine the graph with more separation between the fastball and the curve, which would indeed be tipping the pitch.

    I don’t agree with the article upon re-reading it, given that his curve and fastball are coming out of a postage card size slot.

  212. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 10:54 pm

    Randy-

    This is for you.

    To calm you down.

    http://picasaweb.google.com/cy.....d29gIjWVw#

    As per our agreement. :)

  213. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 10:57 pm

    “why would i hit your hip if i was aiming at your forehead ?”

    Any physical activity is pretty much playing with fire for a gentlemen of your advanced age, no?

    Isn’t just walking to the mailbox a surgery waiting to happen?

  214. randy l. March 17th, 2010 at 10:58 pm

    ” He is King Claudius’s chief counsellor, and the father of Ophelia and Laertes. Polonius connives with Claudius to spy on Hamlet. The latter eventually murders Polonius, provoking Ophelia’s suicide and the climax of the play: a duel between Laertes and Hamlet.
    Although it is generally regarded that Polonius is wrong in all the judgements that he makes over the course of the play,” -wikepedia

    Bodhisattva-

    i had to look that up who polonius was.

    now how is stuckey supposed to take that in the best possible way?

    speaking of plays, the cast of characters on the blog today was excellent.

    really good baseball discussions .

    i’m just worried the blog will peak to soon.

    need to save something for the regular season.

  215. CB March 17th, 2010 at 10:58 pm

    “My argument makes sense if you imagine the graph with more separation between the fastball and the curve, which would indeed be tipping the pitch.

    I don’t agree with the article upon re-reading it, given that his curve and fastball are coming out of a postage card size slot.”

    Yes. This is the original point I was making.

    That’s why that article is a very good example of a type 1 error in the making.

    Sky Kalkman is contorting his thinking to try to fit the data and that’s not how valid inference is drawn from data. People do that all the time but it’s poor analytic thinking because it is not conceptually sound.

  216. Pat M. March 17th, 2010 at 10:58 pm

    CB is right…As a hitter you set your timing by the pitchers leg kick, the you focus into the release point zone and try to pick up the white of the ball before it’s released….Once the arm goes back, everything just explodes in real time….The tip is going to most likely occur when the hands break from the glove or even before….Real good pitchers just are so consistant….David Cone reinvented himself on the hill as he lost his outstanding fastball and breaking ball….He arm slotted his way thru his last 3-4 years…

  217. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 17th, 2010 at 11:00 pm

    stuckey
    March 17th, 2010 at 10:53 pm
    To thine own self be true, Bod. To thine own self be true….
    ====

    words, words, words :D

  218. randy l. March 17th, 2010 at 11:00 pm

    “Isn’t just walking to the mailbox a surgery waiting to happen?”

    mailbox?

    who uses snail mail anymore?

    i do everything online.

    you need to get with it :)

  219. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 17th, 2010 at 11:05 pm

    I also have to question the line of thinking that these guys have nothing to learn against AAA hitters but do against big league hitters in the 8th inning.

    Both of them have already proved they can go out there and blow fastballs by 3 guys at a time with dominance and rather at ease.

    What is the difference?

  220. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 17th, 2010 at 11:08 pm

    “LGY, give Phil a little more credit than that; I don’t think he expects to be throwing perfect change-ups all the time. He’s gotten tattooed on bad curves or FB, like every pitcher; why would he feel differently about a change?”

    ————————-

    Betsy,

    It was not a knock on Phil but rather what I think almost any human in his situation would do. If he is pitching the 8th inning there will not be much margin for error. He already knows he can go out there and dominate with just a FB and CB. If he blows a game on a CU I would bet him or anyone else would be very hesitant to go back to that pitch in a crucial situation (which will pretty much be every time he goes out there from the BP) when he has 2 other pitches he knows are much more effective at this point.

  221. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 11:11 pm

    “now how is stuckey supposed to take that in the best possible way?”

    Well, when you consider yourself an Iago-type, being Polonius can be considered a compliment I suppose.

    :i do everything online.”

    Sex is better up close and personal, FYI.

    Perhaps you’ve forgotten?

  222. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 11:13 pm

    “What is the difference?”

    One helps the NEW YORK Yankees win baseball games.

    The other helps the Scranton Wilkes-Barre Yankees win ballgames.

  223. Pat M. March 17th, 2010 at 11:14 pm

    Time to move on >>>>>>>>>>>. Next page

  224. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 17th, 2010 at 11:14 pm

    stuckey,

    That was not the question.

  225. stuckey March 17th, 2010 at 11:17 pm

    LGY, fair enough.

    How about “they can throw whatever pitches they like in the 7th and 8th inning”.

    That’s THEIR choice.

    Minor leaguers will always been minor leaguers. That’s out of their control.

  226. Bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 17th, 2010 at 11:17 pm

    randy l.
    March 17th, 2010 at 10:58 pm
    ” He is King Claudius’s chief counsellor, and the father of Ophelia and Laertes. Polonius connives with Claudius to spy on Hamlet. The latter eventually murders Polonius, provoking Ophelia’s suicide and the climax of the play: a duel between Laertes and Hamlet.
    Although it is generally regarded that Polonius is wrong in all the judgements that he makes over the course of the play,” -wikepedia
    Bodhisattva-
    i had to look that up who polonius was.
    now how is stuckey supposed to take that in the best possible way?
    speaking of plays, the cast of characters on the blog today was excellent.
    really good baseball discussions .
    i’m just worried the blog will peak to soon.
    need to save something for the regular season.
    =====

    Well, I don’t know…Polonius led a pretty cushy life, until he hid behind the arras…:D.

    Yeah, the blog brought it today.

  227. randy l. March 17th, 2010 at 11:27 pm

    “Joba’s mechanics really aren’t great. The good thing with him however is that he already throws 4 good pitches.”

    CB-

    that is the good thing as joba is very talented.

    the problem is command with the four pitches.

    command is obviously going to be hard to come by if you don’t repeat your delivery every time because your release point is going to vary so much as well.

    one thing i want to say is that i don’t think in the long run that joba and hughes are in competition with each other .

    they really are two very different pitchers who are going to have a different developmental pattern. joba is going to have to harness the raw stuff he has and hughes is going to be adding stuff, as he adds pitches, to his already good stuff

    i think they both could be #1s if the right scenarios play out for each , and i think they will benefit when they are separated from this competition with each other .

    they are just not the same kind of pitchers.

    even though joba burst on the scene with the four plus pitches , i think it may take him longer to put them all together with command.

    hughes reminds me more of lester who just seems to slowly add each year to his game without regressing.

    joba doesn’t remind me of anyone except joba, but if he wants it badly enough and works at it , i have no doubt that he could get it all together.

    it just may take longer than we originally thought.

  228. MTU March 17th, 2010 at 11:27 pm

    Time for the veil of sleep to overtake my weary bones.

    Catch you all on the rebound.:)

  229. CB March 17th, 2010 at 11:39 pm

    “they really are two very different pitchers who are going to have a different developmental pattern. joba is going to have to harness the raw stuff he has and hughes is going to be adding stuff, as he adds pitches, to his already good stuff”

    randy,

    This is an outstanding summary of these two players. Part of “harnessing stuff” with Joba is his ability to get his fastball velocity and command back.

    That’s step one. We know he has the ability to sit mid to high 90′s deep into games.

    Last year for some reason he didn’t do that consistently in any way – either in the rotation or bull pen.

    But he is immensely talented. At his best, his stuff compares favorably with any pitcher in baseball. It really is that good.

    However, he really is an unusual pitcher in so many ways – from experience to mechanics.

    We’ve seen pitchers like him before in terms of mechanics, inconsistency with delivery, etc. But with most pitchers like that those factors because significant to fatal flaws – ones that prevent the pitcher from rounding out his arsenal.

    Neftali Feliz is going through that. He has two dominant pitches. Chapman is a bit like that as well.

    You just don’t see the combination of a 4 pitch pitcher who has such inconsistent mechanics like Joba does. Inconsistent mechanics usually preclude development of a third pitch never mind a fourth.

    With Joba that hasn’t been the case. He just has so much talent that he can throw 4 pitches even with his mechanics all over the place. I can’t recall another pitcher with those kind of dynamics.

    On Hughes – I too have been hoping that Hughes can develop into a right handed Lester. When Phil started throwing his cutter Lester was the guy I immediately thought of with Hughes.

    Lester is a legitimate 5 pitch pitcher. I’d guess he has a two seamer in there so he might be a 6 pitch pitcher. He’s systematically added stuff to his arsenal while developing physically and gaining velocity. He’s a great model for Hughes.

    But you’re right – Hughe and Joba are both guys with #1 potential but are completely different pitchers.

    It’s fascinating to watch.

  230. randy l. March 17th, 2010 at 11:48 pm

    mtu -

    thanks for the “intervention” photos :)

  231. randy l. March 17th, 2010 at 11:54 pm

    CB-

    i agree it’s fascinating to watch with joba and hughes, and i hate, as a yankee fan, how much i like watching lester pitch.

  232. Davey55 March 18th, 2010 at 1:46 pm

    Who thinks that the Yankee will be lucky enough to have 5 starters this season. Who truly believes that there will not be an injury or a suspension or something that will make it necessary for the Yankees to replace at least one starter for at least 3 or 4 games? I am of the opinion that if you split the game between Joba and Hughes you are developing 2 starting pitchers a well as have an “off day” for te rest of the bullpen (assuming that both pitchers are effective). You start one guy and in the 6th inning you replace him with the other. Not complicated, both get enough innings to be starters in 2012, puts both of them on a 5 day rotation, allow them to get used to that cycle and the second person becomes the replacement starter WHEN someone is going to miss multiple starts. This isn’t rocket science, there should be no problem with it. If at the end of the season either Joba or Hughes need more innings a trip to winter ball for a few starts could increase their innings and then prepare them for spring as starters.

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