Individual tickets on sale tomorrow
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Mar 18, 2010 
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Just a reminder that individual game tickets go on sale tomorrow at noon. Here’s the full press release from the Yankees.
Tickets for individual games to see the defending World Champion New York Yankees at Yankee Stadium will go on sale to the general public on Friday, March 19 at noon at www.yankees.com and www.yankeesbeisbol.com, and via Ticketmaster phone only at (877) 469-9849 and Ticketmaster TTY at (800) 943-4327. Beginning Wednesday, March 24, tickets may also be purchased at the Yankee Stadium Ticket Office, all area Ticketmaster outlets and all Yankees Clubhouse Shops.
As in past years, the Yankees will make available individual-game ticket value programs throughout the 2010 season. A complete list of ticket specials, including game dates, seating locations, and terms and conditions, can be found at www.yankees.com/ticketspecials, by calling (718) 293-6000 or e-mailing tickets@yankees.com. Please note that all ticket specials are subject to availability.
E-Saver Games – Fans can register at www.yankees.com/esaver to receive weekly e-mail ticket offers for E-saver Games available only to Yankees e-mail subscribers.
$5 Games – For select games during the 2010 season, fans can purchase tickets in select areas of the Terrace and Grandstand Levels and Bleachers for $5. Tickets for $5 Games may be purchased in advance or on the day of the game. (Excludes all Premium Games*.)
Family Games – Families can enjoy specially priced tickets on designated Monday through Thursday games in April, May and September. Tickets may be purchased in advance or on the day of game. (Excludes all Premium Games*.)
Senior Citizen Games – Senior Citizens (60 and older) can purchase $5 tickets in designated seating locations for select Monday through Thursday games. Tickets may be purchased ONLY on the day of the game at Yankee Stadium Ticket Windows outside Yankee Stadium, adjacent to Gate 4, subject to availability. All tickets are sold on a first come, first served basis. A valid form of identification must be presented at the time of purchase. (Excludes all Premium Games*.)
Student Games – For select games during the 2010 season, students who present their valid high school or college ID cards when purchasing tickets can receive one half-price ticket in designated seating locations. Tickets may be purchased ONLY on the day of the game at Yankee Stadium Ticket Windows outside Yankee Stadium, adjacent to Gate 4. (Excludes all Premium Games*.)
Youth Games – All fans 14 and younger, when accompanied by an adult, can purchase half-price tickets in designated seating locations for Saturday games. Tickets may be purchased ONLY on the day of the game at Yankee Stadium Ticket Windows outside Yankee Stadium, adjacent to Gate 4. (Excludes all Premium Games*.)
* The term “Premium Games” is defined as the Opening Day game, the Old-Timers’ Day game (July 17 vs. Tampa Bay) and all games played against the Boston Red Sox, Philadelphia Phillies and New York Mets.
The 27-time World Champion Yankees will begin their 81-game home regular season schedule on Tuesday, April 13 at 1:05 p.m. vs. the Los Angeles Angels.
The Yankee Stadium Ticket Office is located outside Yankee Stadium adjacent to Gate 4 on the corner of 161st Street and Jerome Avenue. Beginning Wednesday, March 24, the Yankee Stadium Ticket Office will be open Monday through Saturday from 9:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. and Sundays from 10:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. On game days during the season, the Yankee Stadium Ticket Office will be open Monday through Saturday from 9:00 a.m. until two hours after the scheduled first pitch and Sundays from 10:00 a.m. until two hours after the scheduled first pitch.
GROUP TICKETS:
Groups of 20 or more are eligible to take advantage of a variety of group ticket discounts. For complete group ticket information, please visit www.yankees.com, call the Yankees Group Sales Department at (718) 293-6000 or e-mail groups@yankees.com.
Can someone help me and tell me which games are $5?
How much do we get raped by TicketMaster “handling” fees?
Eric if you check the Yankee website (yankees.com) and go to tickets, there might be information on which games are the $5 games.
mel, just want to say that I agree with you about the wisdom of having a starter go down to AAA to keep working out and keep stretched out. It isn’t foolish, stupid, or anything to the like. Whether that happens is another question – but it doesn’t mean it can’t or won’t happen. As you pointed out the Yankees have done it before.
Ok SJ, that makes sense. It will be different with Joba, so that’s good news; hopefully Joe and Cash will let the kid pitch multiple innings if he’s in the pen.
M, I like that analogy. Phil is very polite and respectful and he would never say otherwise, but he wants to start badly. We may be frustrated at his injuries and setbacks, but it’s not our career; imagine how he feels?
I agree with SJ about the closer position. LOL Yes, I remember Coke’s reaction and I actually didn’t think it was that funny – he was an odd duck. Mo never gets down on himself because he realizes that he’s done the best he could; that mentality is in part why he’s lasted so long without burning out. That mentality works whether you are a starter or a reliever, so people should listen to Mo – he knows whereof he speaks.
ditmars, enough that it’s worth it to go to NY to get the tickets or at least check out stubhub and eBay. You pay extra on stubhub, but you can also get the tickets cheaper.
Pretty sure Phil and Joba just want to be in the big leagues. At this point in their careers that is goal #1 – whether it’s starting or relieving, making it to the show is the top priority. There is such a vast difference in salary, lifestyle, competition, etc
Once they are more established they will start to worry about starting vs relieving.
pat -
Good for you – but it couldn’t have been pleasant cooking outdoors.
m -
I’m glad you made that point that sometimes people are just thinking out loud and throwing out some ideas here. Let’s face it, Yankees policy is not made here at Lohud!
Now – back to trying to figure out what to pack for vacation. A very hated job. It entails trying on practically everythiing I own. But this time, I made an Excel chart to right down what I need for each day.
Anyone want to play GDVW? (kidding of course)
That would be “write” down.
Doreen-
You don’t want my help for packing. I am known to pack 4 shirts for one night in AC
Thanks Trisha!
So, I’m a little late to the party. But I’m a Phil and Aceves as starters advocate. Joba, too, if he could be a little more consistent. He had an awful 2nd half, no getting around that. But I suppose the Yankees must’ve felt somewhat responsible as Joba’s regular season job was never in danger of being lost. But I guess by that point, we had a cushion to play with in the standings?
I’ve been harsh on Joba. I’ve said that all along. But it’s because of Joba, not Phil.
Potential and all, Joba has some bad habits. And it has been entirely fair to be critical of those habits. I don’t think I’ve ever felt or expressed that I want Joba to fail, but I would like him to improve in certain areas. I think it’ll make him a better pitcher (and the bullpen would greatly appreciate it!).
ERica -
That is my problem!!! I overpack. That’s why this time, I’m charting. I’m going upstairs, and I’m planning out every day. I also just checked the weather report to make sure I don’t have to pack “just in case” clothes.
I hate having to decide today what I’m wearing 4 days from now. My father teased me that I would need to buy 2 wedding dresses, because he never saw me go out in the first outfit I had on! So packing for vacation has never been easy for me. Plus, like I said, I need to try everything on first. Time consuming.
m-
“But I’m a Phil and Aceves as starters advocate”
Then you are GBU. Welcome aboard.
Doreen-where are you going on vacation?
Jesus… MTU, GBURL, GBU
What is with these nonsense acronyms??
mel, I’m pretty much in agreement with your take in your last post also.
Patrick, you make a good point. I would bet that both would prefer to stay at the big dance. I just wonder though if you sat both down and told them that staying at the big dance would mean the bullpen and going down would mean a better chance at starting sooner, whether they would opt for the pen or AAA. Interesting thought.
Doreen-
Could you please do me a favor ?
If you happen to be around and I’m not could you ocassionally explain to those not in the know what GBU stands for, and it’s most basic mission ?
trisha, Betsy, and Doreen:
Oh, and I know they can’t all be starters. Which is a far cry from a year or two ago when we had the Clippards, DeSalvos, and Ponsons of the world!
So, it’s great problem to have. And I think all the players have merits. The fans, too.
Eric, you are welcome!
Doreen, many of us have the packing horrors that way. I’m always afraid I won’t pack enough, and I ALWAYS pack too much. And never the twain shall meet, I fear!
Patrick-
They are anything but nonsense.
GBU stand for Great Both Underbelly.
It is like OPPC.
It’s a group of posters who believe that both PH and JC should be starters at some point.
I am the Ring Leader (RL).
Doreen
Pick one neutral color to build a wardrobe around for vacation and it will cut down on the pairs of shoes which is usually the packing problem more than an extra top or 2.
Here is the problem with the whole, “send one of them to the minors” argument.
Its more than just “keeping someone stashed there in case of injury”. Its about development. Mental and physical development.
Both guys know they are two of the best 8 pitchers on the team. They both contributed to winning a WS.
You send one of them to Scranton and you have to deal with the mental setback as much or more than anything physical.
You add hurdle to their development and that’s something teams are loathe to do with young players. Especially those they know are major leaguers like Phil and Joba.
Going out and having AAA hitters chase your pitches, even if they aren’t good, (which will happen) accomplishes nothing.
Nor can they just “work on things” at the AAA level. Dave Miley certainly isn’t going to be on board with that in Scranton, nor should he.
At the major league level, you not only are challenged by better hitters (which makes you better), you have teammates like Mo, CC, Andy, AJ, etc to offer you advice and guidence as well as contributing to the team winning games.
These guys are no longer minor league pitchers. They don’t belong in the minors.
By April 24, Hughes will be out of options and can’t be sent to the minors unless he’s exposed to waivers.
Joba? I think Joba has shown he’s no longer a minor league pitcher for quite sometime.
There are practical baseball reasons why you don’t send guys like this to the minors to be “stashed”.
Especially when they are two of the best pitchers on the team.
Patrick-
Just a friendly suggestion.
It would be good if you lengthened your fuse.
“Too marginal a player to deal with. You rehab the Hamiltons of the world. Not the Dukes.”
———————-
m,
Dukes talent is far from marginal. Look what he did in just 1/2 a season in 2008. He has 5-tool talent.
He put up a 2.8 WAR in just 81 games in 2008. None of our LF candidates probably do that with a whole season.
Phil said last year he would rather be in the bullpen in NY than in the rotation in Scranton. Joba wants no part of Scranton.
Nobody would rather spend time in the minors than the majors.
Its two entirely different lives.
Plus, there is the business aspect to it.
Everyday spent in the majors is another day of service time racked up for the player. That gets him closer to arbitration, where you begin to make big money.
Fans think there is “benefit” being in the minors. Players do not.
Derek Jeter was asked earlier this Spring what was his best memory of being in the minors? He said, “Getting called up to the majors”.
That sums up players feelings about the minors.
We shall see how it all sifts out. While we might all have ideas and theories on whether they will or won’t go to AAA, the people who know how it’s going to play out aren’t saying.
And so we wait and watch!
It’s all good.
Dukes didn’t do that in an entire season either and that was two years ago.
The entire package is what has to be considered. Not parsing stats over a half season of work.
Every team in baseball passed on the guy when the Nats were shopping him. That Nats didn’t even want to put him in AAA.
They have the same stats you possessed and everybody passed on him. There is a reason for that. He’s not worth the headache.
MTU,
Your last post is literally a bunch of gibberish.
trisha,
I expect that both Phil and Joba would opt for the bullpen over starting in AAA.
SJ is spot-on. The difference between the minors and the majors if much more significant than some folks are considering.
And I just want to add again even considering the AAA option is dependent on the notion it’s BETTER for their development as an eventual major league starter, which nobody can offer anything but subjective opinion and wholesale conjecture about.
Can people stop already with sending either PH or JC to the minors? It makes zero sense and will not happen save injury, it’s wasting everyone’s time!!
MTU,
I hope you know I’m joking around with you. I don’t mind the acronyms, although they are getting a bit out of control. Maybe it’s just rage carrying over from my job. At my company we use an acronym for almost everything. There are also several acronyms within acronyms.
Go watch the movie Bull Durham and you’ll know how players feel about the minors. It’s all about making it to the Show.
“Nobody would rather spend time in the minors than the majors.”
Actually I do remember some players who were never getting into games say that they would prefer to be back in AAA getting work in. That would be pitchers. It may not be Phil or Joba, but not everybody is in their situation either. In fact I seem to remember Phil in 2008 saying he welcomed the chance to go back to AAA so he could work on his stuff.
SJ, I can see what your saying…….and I wonder if they would start to lose faith in the organization at some point. In other words, they’d ask themselves what more they have to do to prove they belong in the major leagues. They both are definitely major league pitchers, but I think those (and I was one of them) that suggested AAA as an option only did so because we want both kids to fulfill their potential. I don’t believe that any of us really thinks their full potential can be maximized in the pen. It’s easy to say “well, it’s just about the team”, but the game is played by human beings. Of course I root for the Yankees, but I also root for individuals as well –I imagine I’m not the only one. We all want these guys to be the best they can be……and the best they can be will end up being the best thing for the team. Since that means both Phil and Joba as top young starters, we just want them to get there; unfortunately, the route to being a good SP is not a straight line.
The Mariners had only five hits and lost outfielder Milton Bradley when he was ejected after disputing a called third strike in the third inning. After taking a called strike from Texas’ Scott Feldman for the second out, Bradley placed the bat down and stayed in the box until he was tossed by plate umpire Dan Bellino.
================================================
Looks like Milty is ready for the regular season to begin. Who on here said that he was just misunderstood and really a nice guy once the big bad world got off his case?
trisha,
I’m not doubting you but I don’t remember any quotes like that. If you could find a link or something that’d be greatly appreciated.
Bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes
March 18th, 2010 at 11:37 am
SJ44
March 18th, 2010 at 9:05 am
Folks make this stuff way too complicated to fit their agendas.
Neither Joba nor Phil are going to AAA. They areakor league pitchers and the Yankees are actually trying to win again. You don’t do that by stashing one of your best pitchers in AAA in case someone gets hurt.
Look at how the Yankees operate. Like it or not, they place greater value in having a quality setup guy for Mo than they do a 6th or 7th starter.
The idea that Joba can’t become a starter again if he is in the pen this year is also inaccurate.
Phil Hughes wasn’t hurt going into the pen last year. In fact, it’s helped his career tremendously. So much so, he may end up in the rotation this year.
If it can work out for Phil, why not Joba?
Whether Joba is a starter long term is a different issue.
The way I see it, it’s a good problem to have. Not nearly the calamity some try to make it out to be.
=====
It doesn’t need to be so polarized as you’re making it out to be.
And in the case of Joba, it also depends on what he is ultimately being groomed for.
Joba or Hughes could go to AAA, and still manage to help the Yankees out of the bullpen.
In Joba’s case, the advantages of going to Triple A would be delivery repetition over the course of several innings, not merely a zipperless eighth.
He had a great stretch in his most recent outing where he dramatically changed the eye level on a hitter, finally blowing a FB that exploded up to finish him off.
It struck me, because it was a strategic use of Joba’s arsenal that he turned to great account – something he will need to repeat as he goes through a lineup as a starting pitcher over the course of a game.
If Hughes gets the nod, Joba can do this at Scranton.
The eyes down there on him are not going to be focused on just “results”, so his anticipated domination of AAA hitters is neither here nor there.
The Red Sox, when confronted with Buccholz’s command problems, sent him to AAA and he later emerged as a much better pitcher.
They didn’t think ‘Oh, the hitters are soft – he’d be wasting his time.’ That isn’t even a consideration – in Joba’s case, his delivery getting out of whack is potentially keeping him from being the starting pitcher we saw in 2008 prior to Texas and in brief flashes in 2009 (post All-Star break).
The focus at Scranton would be on being consistent with his delivery, and the fact that he will continue to be stretched out is also a practical consideration, because injury to the staff is bound to happen, and one would prefer to see Joba step into those circumstances, then to disturb Aceves in his nearly perfected role of long relief.
He can ride into the bullpen on his horse later in the season, with greater confidence in his mechanics, which he would have been obliged to keep clean over the course of several innings – not just as a fireballer for one.
And I think a Joba with stronger mechanics and greater command would be a much brighter option than one who doesn’t know where the ball is going in a high leverage eighth.
So I don’t think it’s such a polarized thing: he can work in peace on mechanical issues and continue to build his arm up, and can also help the Yankees in the bullpen, if Robertson or someone else hasn’t already emerged in a convincing fashion, as Rivera’s setup man.
As to your comment that they put a higher value on a setup man than they do a 6th or 7th starter, assuming that’s so, I think the more pertinent question is:
Do they prefer a setup man to a decade of front-line starting?
If their answer is yes – especially in light of the fact that they are rich in bullpen arms – then they are utter fools.
If they think Joba can’t hack starting because of some health issue or some kinesiological finding, that’s another matter entirely
.
That would, however, point up their complete disingenuousness of putting him through this “competition”, which seems unlikely.
Of course, if Joba wins the starter’s job, which is still a viable outcome, then then there won’t be anymore Francesa-like nonsense about him being better served as a setup man.
I get the feeling with Hughes, should he get edged out for the fifth spot, is not being looked upon as a lifelong reliever.
Thank goodness for some sanity prevailing.
Patrick-
I must admit you had me going there for a moment.
I hope you can share the important sentiment embodied in GBU.
I wear that badge proudly.
And you may be right, my acronymity can sometimes get the better of me but unlike the silly ones this one is meaningful.
Gotta hit the trails. Catch up with you all later.
Bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes
March 18th, 2010 at 11:45 am
Suggesting Phil go to AAA so he could stay a starter and get his innings is also not a stupid or foolish idea. It’s what many teams would do if they wanted to develop a young starter with option(s).
====
No M, it’s not a stupid idea.
Hughes himself said working on his changeup in side sessions was not really viable. In spite of being able to work on the grip, he needs a hitter to react to his change and the “change” in velocity.
A changeup is a relative pitch – unless you’ve got one like Christian Garcia. It needs to exert it’s comparable change of speed on an actual hitter.
Sab,
Give me a break, that’s a bogus ejection and anyone with half a brain knows it.
Stuckey,
That’s just it. Sending them to AAA doesn’t help their development.
You want to send them to the minors for “developmental” reasons? Send them to A Ball. They can “work on things” in A Ball.
The Yankees obviously won’t do that because its absurd to even consider since neither guy is that messed up.
I think some folks don’t understand what the minors are all about. At the lower levels (A Ball and below), its all about development.
In AA, teams usually have their best prospects and the competition level is much higher.
AAA is now a place for AAAA players, rehabbing guys, and a few guys (like Montero) who are big-time prospects that are close to the bigs. Its not a “developmental” league.
Those guys are playing to win games and hope for a shot at the show. You can’t put a pitcher down and say, “just throw two seamers and change ups tonight”. He will get smoked.
Its not a viable solution to deal with the dilemma. If, as some believe, a dilemma exists.
I happen to think one does not exist.
They changed Jackson’s swing @ AAA
Melancon developed a change up @ AAA
They changed Gardner’s swing @ AAA
Curtis had his swing changed @ AAA
They forced Hughes to throw 10% change ups and told him to forget about his performance in 2008
LOL @ Dave Miley not being on board with players “Working on things”. The AA manager was fired in 2006 for focusing on performance and not development.
If Tor can send Halladay to A ball after putting up a 3.92 era in 1999, Cleveland can sent Lee back to the minors and the Redsox can leave Buchholz (one of their top 10 arms) @ AAA until Aug last year, then the Yankees can send Joba or Hughes to AAA.
“And I just want to add again even considering the AAA option is dependent on the notion it’s BETTER for their development as an eventual major league starter, which nobody can offer anything but subjective opinion and wholesale conjecture about.”
Best post on this and just about every subject on this forum. NOBODY can offer anything but subjective opinion and wholesale conjecture about most of the issues here, despite the fact that some posters present as if they have just come down from Mt. Horeb!
i wonder if Elijah’s friends when he was growing up refered to his mother as ‘Ma Dukes’?
This makes me wonder how many players have medical waivers for PEDs.
“Kansas City Royals catcher Jason Kendall will be in court this morning in his bitter child custody fight, and we’ve learned he’ll be asked about his use of a prescription amphetamine that can enhance performance.”
http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/18/.....z0iXkoEPtq
I really don’t get why anyone would want the Yankees to sell their soul for Dukes. They are a very, very good team as constituted with very good players; I didn’t want Albert Belle and I don’t want Dukes.
Stuckey,
It makes perfect sense to me because it was my thought.
In the past they would’ve sent Phil to the minors (they did), but I know now that there’s no way they can send him down.
He has arrived. And I don’t think he’s going back. And I don’t think he’s going to the bullpen, either.
As for Joba, he may be belong in the majors. But work on your WHIP, kid!
Patrick, it might be like the proverbial needle in the haystack but I will see what I can find.
March Madness!!!!! Night spring training games, the season is approaching
mel, at this point I think that options as much as (more than?) anything else mitigates against their going down – though I can’t know that for sure.
the high in NYC is pretty much the same as Tampa today….weird
(assuming of course, that WHIP is an acceptable stat?
)
“In spite of being able to work on the grip, he needs a hitter to react to his change and the “change” in velocity.”
Is there a Major League rule prohibiting change-ups in the 7th and 8th innings?
There is no consensus that Joba is a “starter for a decade”.
That’s the rub.
In fact, most people who work on field in the game believe he is best suited for the bullpen.
Honestly, from on field personnel with the Yankees, to teammates, to just about every scout and GM I know, I can’t think of 5 guys who believe in their heart of hearts he’s a starting pitcher for a variety of reasons that have been discussed ad nauseum on the blog.
That’s the difficulty with Joba.
If it was as cut and dried as, “he is a starter, no doubt about it”, its a different discussion.
As to the belief Joba could work on things in relative “quiet” in AAA, that ain’t happening.
If Joba Chamberlain is starting a AAA game, home or away, its a big deal. They would be sold out games (they always in the minors when a big league guy is playing) and the atmosphere will be anything but “quiet”.
Its not an environment for improvement. Its a demotion for no logical reason and you create more problems than you are trying to solve.
trisha,
That’s right. Pitchers without options means that they will not take the best 12 pitchers.
A list of $5 games:
http://forums.nyyfans.com/show.....tcount=327
Ohhh, I remember the sh*tstorm that happened when Jorge said (on tv!) that Joba belonged in the pen.
Always ahead of his time, that guy.
Neither Phil or Joba are going to AAA. The No. 5 starter role was Phil’s to lose and he has to fall flat on his face to lose it.
Joba will go to the bullpen to share set-up duties with Robertson and Park depending on the hitters they’ll face and occasional use as a closer when Mariano should have a day off.
Marte is a situational lefthander that will rarely go beyond 1 inning of work. Aceves is flexible, short or long relief. Gaudin will be primarily the long reliever.
Only injury will determine otherwise.
Can there be one time a player is released by another organization that people aren’t clamoring for the Yanks to sign him?
Dukes is bad news. What more do you need to see than the worst team in baseball cutting ties with someone with a very low salary and options?
So many problems with that post….
Let’s begin….
Modifying players swings goes on at ALL levels of baseball. Even the major league level.
Just look at what KLong did with Arod at the end of last season.
You don’t need to go to the minors for that.
Telling a guy to throw “10% changeups” isn’t a big deal. He can do that at the major level. He doesn’t need to go to Scranton for that.
Roy Halladay went to A Ball to completely change the way he pitched.
He changed his arm angle, windup, grips on his cutter and fastball. He completely re-built himself and he did it in A Ball (as I talked about in an earlier post), not AAA.
Clay Buchholz was not one of the 8 best pitchers on the Red Sox. Joba and Phil are 2 of the 8 best pitchers on the Yankees.
Aside from all of thoses corrections, your post is accurate.
Its more than just “keeping someone stashed there in case of injury”. Its about development. Mental and physical development.
Both guys know they are two of the best 8 pitchers on the team. They both contributed to winning a WS.
You send one of them to Scranton and you have to deal with the mental setback as much or more than anything physical.
You add hurdle to their development and that’s something teams are loathe to do with young players. Especially those they know are major leaguers like Phil and Joba.
Going out and having AAA hitters chase your pitches, even if they aren’t good, (which will happen) accomplishes nothing.
Nor can they just “work on things” at the AAA level. Dave Miley certainly isn’t going to be on board with that in Scranton, nor should he.
=====
Dave Miley takes his marching orders from the Yankees.
Furthermore, no one’s going to care that Joba Chamberlain is now ending his delivery upright or whether he’s driving through his legs.
You kidding?? Dave Miley would be thrilled to have Joba or Hughes “work” on things, since they’re hardly going to get pounded doing so.
Neither guy gets pounded IN THE MAJORS – a tweak isn’t going to fold Joba’s tent. Joba takes the hitch out of his delivery, and Miley’s on the phone to Cashman??? C’mon.
He’s got KEI IGAWA down there. Nova had awful command issues. He could be dealing with Kontos working back from TJ. Please. Take a look at the roster. If Miley can’t accommodate Joba Chamberlain, good luck to him accommodating AA players who have neither Joba’s upside or relative polish.
Not fair to Dave Miley??
The minor leagues will become a lab for Joba or Hughes if the Yankees want it to be.
The point about the mental response to being sent down is the valid one here.
That will be deflating for young guys who had their role in a championship run – particularly Hughes, as he was instrumental in us running away from Boston for the division.
But it’s also the way it’s presented by the Yankees:
“Look, we think you’re going to help us in the rotation for the next 10 years. We don’t want to have you pitch out of the bullpen all season long and lose a year of arm building and throwing your full arsenal.
“We’ll bring you up sooner than you think – we’ll need another starter almost certainly and we’re gonna put you in the bullpen for the stretch drive. We’re not leaving you here,” etc…
They can handle it
.
Dukes is a clubhouse cancer and has a history of domestic violence ….not a guy you want to add to a roster
Patrick, I am talking about the season that Phil and IPK were 4 and 5 starters. I think that would have been 2007. Sorry. I’ll still look to see if I can find an article, though it could have been part of a postgame interview with Kim Jones, etc. But I will see if I can find it.
Joba has got to be the first young pitcher I can remember in the past 20 years with 2 plus offspeed pitches and a feel for a decent changeup that everyone thinks should be a reliever.
Sorry if I am mixing up seasons. Being up two straight nights with computer issues can do that to you.
SJ, I tend to think the reason why scouts, etc.. think Joba is better off in the pen is because they just want to criticize the Yankees for everything they do. I don’t trust these scouts, I certainly don’t trust mediots who wouldn’t know their right hand from their left. These same scouts didn’t “get” that Phil struggled in August 2007 because he was rehabbing from two very serious injuries. They decided then and there, and haven’t changed their minds, that his ceiling was that of a #3/4 starter. Ridiculous. IMO, they only believe Joba should be in the pen because they believe that Yankee youngsters should be treated differently that other teams youngsters. They won’t give him (or Phil) the chance that every very talented kid deserves.
In an interview with Kim Jones on YES last year, when he was moved to the bullpen, Hughes told her he would rather be in the bullpen in NY than the rotation in Scranton.
I’m sure someone can dig that up if its still online somewhere.
“Best post on this and just about every subject on this forum. NOBODY can offer anything but subjective opinion and wholesale conjecture about most of the issues here, despite the fact that some posters present as if they have just come down from Mt. Horeb!”
Agreed Trisha. And this is when you have to start weighing in the factors that you ARE certain about.
Hughes was VERY good last year. I think it IS reasonable to conclude his advancement as a major league pitcher did not happen in a vacuum, and as an eventual regular – be it starter or reliever, he is a better player for the experience.
Couple that with his positive effect on the Yankees championship run, that is a win-win.
Testing a theory – that their development is best served in AAA – comes at a cost: their contribution to the major league team while they’re there.
I think it’s too high a cost to pay in support of a theory.
SJ, I really don’t think Joba is that messed up that he’s beyond a few simplistic adjustments….The real issue is how receptive ( both physical & mentally ) he is to getting himself refined…..He’s a rhythm type pitcher, and when his tempo is right, he has a greater chance for a good outing….When he falls out of tempo, it’s a disaster that awaits…..
SJ44
March 18th, 2010 at 11:45 am
Dukes didn’t do that in an entire season either and that was two years ago.
The entire package is what has to be considered. Not parsing stats over a half season of work.
Every team in baseball passed on the guy when the Nats were shopping him. That Nats didn’t even want to put him in AAA.
They have the same stats you possessed and everybody passed on him. There is a reason for that. He’s not worth the headache.
—————————–
I was not pointing out his stats and saying extrapolate that over a full season and you have a 5-6 WAR player. I was simply point out Major League talent is there and potentially very good major league talent.
Obviously he is not perfect on or off the field. If he was he would not be available right now. If he was a 5-6 WAR player in 2008 or 2009 he is not available right now for nothing.
There are also several reason why teams passed on him in a trade. (1) They may not have wanted to give up anything knowing or likely thinking he would be released. Or (2) and what I think the reason is, teams wanted to meet face to face with him before bringing him on board. They wanted to talk to the guy. They wanted to lay out the rules. Take it or leave it type of thing.
The question is not whether he is perfect. The question is given his past is his talent worth 400K. Considering he would be the 25th man on the roster there is no much harm he can do. And if he does, you cut him and are out 400K.
That’s not true Betsy.
The reason why scouts believe he is better off in the bullpen is they don’t believe he repeat his delivery enough, harness his emotions and pitches, over the long haul as a starter.
They are also leery of his injury history and the fact his delivery is as violent and inconsistent as it is.
It has nothing to do with “Yankee Hate”.
Scouts don’t have “Yankee Hate”. Most of them have great respect for the team and the way George has taken care of a lot of people in the game.
Many believe Joba is more effective when its a less and not more thing.
FWIW, Mariano feels the same way. Its not like its an off the wall, can’t be true opinion.
JK
March 18th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
Joba has got to be the first young pitcher I can remember in the past 20 years with 2 plus offspeed pitches and a feel for a decent changeup that everyone thinks should be a reliever.
===
If EVERYONE thinks he should be a reliever, then he wouldn’t be competing for the job of fifth starter on the NY Yankees.
Apparently, EVERYONE doesn’t include the Yankees.
“Joba has got to be the first young pitcher I can remember in the past 20 years with 2 plus offspeed pitches and a feel for a decent changeup that everyone thinks should be a reliever.”
I assume you mean 1st young Yankees pitcher.
I can’t help but think the reason so many people think Chamberlain is a reliever has less to do with what happens when he releases the ball, and everything to do with who he is before and after he throws.
He’s somewhat stockey. He’s can appear to be a little bit of a flake. He gets exuberant after big, late-inning strikeouts. And in 2007, he was ridiculously good in that role.
He WEARS the parts of the closer well.
And yes, I think even scouts and people in the game are prone to this entirely superficial judgment as well.
“NOBODY can offer anything but subjective opinion and wholesale conjecture about most of the issues here, despite the fact that some posters present as if they have just come down from Mt. Horeb!”
yeah , but i bet MOST of them are smart enough to have an external hard drive that backs up their computer daily .
of course when you have info directly from Mt. Horeb you know you have to back it up
Pat M,
I agree. He’s been MUCH better this Spring.
Better shape, better attitude, better work ethic. Its night and day from last year.
Mechanics still need work but they are getting cleaner.
I just think the issue is, and you know this talking to baseball people, he may be a guy that’s better off in the bullpen.
I think its more where to put him (role on the team) than what’s wrong with him.
I do a poor job of explaining it.
However, as you know, some guys are just better in 10-30 pitch doses than 100+ pitches over 200 innings per year.
Everything is tigher in shorter doses for some guys.
I think that’s the issue with Joba.
Tom McCarthy does the Phillies games. He’s a good friend of mine that works for us during football season.
He’s VERY close to some Yankee officials high up on the food chain.
He said something very interesting during the broadcast yesterday….
When talking to Gary Matthews Sr (his broadcast partner) about Joba, he said, “Joba wants to be a starter but, the team would rather have him in the bullpen”.
FWIW, that’s the same stuff I’ve been hearing since December.
Perhaps you have heard the same from your baseball buddies.
SJ let’s try this one again. NOBODY said anything about last year. It was the 2007 season. When you talk in absolutes rather than at least giving the appearance that you are giving an opinion you can be proven wrong – unless of course you are quoting stats.
SJ44,
Beckett
Lester
Wakefield
Ramirez
Papelbon
Okijima
^^^ who else was a better arm on the major league roster than Buchholz last year?
Penny?
Smoltz?
Matsuzaka was hurt
Bard was @ AA
The main reason I would want Joba or Hughes @ AAA.
1. I think the Yankees have a good pen without them.
2. The NY media will criticize the team to no end if the Yankees want to return Joba to the rotation in the future.
3. Hughes needs to throw his change up in games and not only in side sessions.
4. Joba can get his mechanics back to 2006-2008 as a starter working with Aldred.
5. They can both stay stretched out & pitch 160+ innings
“If EVERYONE thinks he should be a reliever, then he wouldn’t be competing for the job of fifth starter on the NY Yankees.
Apparently, EVERYONE doesn’t include the Yankees.”
And therein lies the danger in talking in absolutes!
By the way, I don’t believe the Yankees want Joba in the pen. I don’t believe any of the stuff that people attribute to scouts, their good friends, sources high up, etc. But it’s my nature not to believe someone else’s secondary sources. I’ve always been an “I’ll believe it when I see it” guy.
Too many times peoples’ “sources” have turned out to be wrong for me to buy anything I read here wholesale. Unless it comes out of the mouth of the Yankees.
But that’s just me.
I think that works both ways bodi.
He was a starting pitcher who made 30 starts.
They didn’t have enough confidence in him to give him a rotation spot this year and went out and got Javy Vazquez.
If they were really sold on him as a starter, he would have been guaranteed a slot in the rotation and there would have been a competition for the 5th spot.
Yankees spent 11.5 million dollars (Javy’s 2010 salary) and traded prospects because they didn’t trust him enough to give him the rotation spot he had last year.
I kind of think that’s a red flag in terms of their belief about his starting skills. At least for now.
The variety of opinions are what make this blog so great, but is anyone else ready for a helping of whipped dead horse for lunch?
JK – I think those are all credible reasons for wanting to see one or the other in AAA.
While it may not happen, they are good reasons.
And those people have turned out to be right too Trisha.
You just choose to ignore it when they are.
As in the Johnny Damon talks for example.
If you believe guys would rather be in the minors than majors, I don’t know what to tell you. Its just not true.
Hughes said it himself last year. You make not like the answer but, sometimes absolutes do take place.
When a guy says he would rather be in NY’s bullpen than Scranton’s rotation, I don’t know how else to say it other than the way I said it.
If you have a different way of saying it, I’m all ears.
“The variety of opinions are what make this blog so great, but is anyone else ready for a helping of whipped dead horse for lunch?”
I think some people might be headed back up the mountain for lunch so they can return with their stone tablets and let the rest of us know the real deal.
yanks acquired javier not because of joba struggles in 09 thanks to joba rules.
cashman saw a a quality starter on the market, at a discounted price, it had very little to do with joba
That’s hilarious, Trisha! I sincerely appreciate the laugh.
Seriously, though, SJ has made his point over and over again, and so has every other regular poster, multiple times over. One can only argue one’s point so many times over. Let’s move along, eh?
maybe people see Joba as a reliever, because he’s inefficient as a starter?
And I get that Joba’s had more success as a starter than Hughes. But not only are the two pitchers different from each other, individually, they’re not even the same pitchers they were 2 years ago.
Joba 2009 different from Joba 2008.
Phil 2009 different from Phil 2008.
imo, more recent results should be weighted more.
And on a side note, I’d like to congratulate Ian Kennedy for his successful return to baseball after aneurism surgery. Wishing him the best.
If Joba was lights out last year and Vasquez was still obtainable for what they gave up, I’m pretty sure Vazquez would still be a Yankee today.
” I don’t believe any of the stuff that people attribute to scouts, their good friends, sources high up, etc. But it’s my nature not to believe someone else’s secondary sources. I’ve always been an “I’ll believe it when I see it” guy.”
like with losing all your data.
like no one told you to back up your hard drive before.
of course you are a ” “I’ll believe it when I see it” guy.”
11.5 million for one year, trading one of their Top 3 hitting prospects and their starting CF from 2009 is not a “discounted price”.
It had everything to do with their lack of confidence in Joba starting.
If they felt he was a lock for the rotation, there is no reason to make that trade.
Wow, m, that’s great news. Where did you read that?
SJ, yes they have turned out to be right too. Of course. But about Damon, last season you said that they said the Yankees said they were bringing neither Damon nor Matsui back. My nature has always been to wait until I hear direct quotes coming from the mouths of the people in the Ys organization.
About Phil going to the minors. I remember him talking about it as a positive in the 2007 season, when both he and Kennedy were having problems in the rotation. And in the past I also remember hearing some pitchers who never got into games saying they would prefer to be in the minors where they could get work in to never pitching at all.
Yankees spent 11.5 million dollars (Javy’s 2010 salary) and traded prospects because they didn’t trust him enough to give him the rotation spot he had last year.
I kind of think that’s a red flag in terms of their belief about his starting skills. At least for now.
======
Joba’s bad year clearly led to the Javy trade.
They didn’t trust handing the fourth AND fifth spots to Joba and Hughes for 2010, because they have concerns about the other 3 guys’ workload and the impact on the bullpen.
That does not mean they have given up on Joba as a starter going forward.
You wrote “for now” here, but everywhere else, your communication is that Joba is irrevocably bound for short relief.
Let’s assume, for argument’s sake, that you are reflecting the Yankee view.
If that’s the case, why this charade that he can assume the fifth spot in the rotation?
For the player’s benefit? “We gave you a shot and you blew it.” ?
To make the organization look like they gave it one last shot: “We gave Joba the opportunity and he was outpitched. He’s more of a reliever, anyway.”??
Both scenarios make the Yankees look very, very bad.
Maybe Joba should ask Righetti if he still has that sign he had over his locker in the 80′s:
“I’m confused.”
Or maybe that should be taped to Cashman’s desk instead?
Top 3 “pitching” prospects (Vizcaino). Sorry for the typo.
SJ, I think you’re confusing twoo different things with one another. Not being sold on his as a starter and believing he’s best suited for the bullpen are not necessarily the same thing.
The Yankees need to be pragmatic. They are defending a title and still in the process of selling a new Stadium.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting the Yanks are or should be 100% confident in Chamberlain’s ability to be an effective starter over 30 starts.
But again, that’s NOT the exact same thing as believing he’s a life-long reliever. It’s just being practical.
SJ, ok, but if that’s the case, can you explain to me why scouts completely jumped off Phil’s bandwagon when he came back from his injuries? If they are so knowledgable, how can they do that to a kid that they thought was a can’t miss? Michael Kay felt the same way but he’s just a broadcaster – a broadcaster who should know better, but nonetheless hardly an expert. I can’t conceive of any rational reason why the scouts completely gave up on Phil as a top of the line starter; they didn’t even change their mind in September/October of that year. Did they actually not think that Phil’s injuries would effect him? I just don’t get it. Some of these same scouts think Phil should be in the pen based on last year. I think they’re nuts.
ditmars, I’m ready.
SJ, I’ve hearing the Joba in the pen for quite some time from old time baseball scouts and evaluators…..Just a month ago it was explained that the word was the Yanks were more comfortable with him in the pen…..As explained to me, and I passed it along to the LoHud, it’s easier to have Joba throw 100 pitches per week in 25 inning increments….Repetition of his delivery every other day is far easier for him that a side session and then a start….Simplify his approach to pitching a,d keep him busy…Time off has had negative results…..Bottom line, give him the ball often as it’ll reduce bad habits….Maybe after a year of doing this, you can revisit his role as a starter….Although that may never be his niche
I agree, SJ, because we’d have CC, AJ, Andy, a solid Joba and Phil…….Why get another pitcher when they’d have 4 solid starters and they could give the 5th spot to a very promising Phil?
melky got traded the same way bruney got traded.
melky a 4th outfielder, whose would made an expensive bench player.
randy winn compareable he only getting 1.1 million
aroldis v he still 4 or 5 years away from the majors.
sure there is you get a an bove average starter at a discount you take.
atl hm said direxly, they trade javier because of money.
guy finished 4th in cy young last year and you don’t think the yanks got a bargain?
They most certainly went after Vaquez because of Joba’s struggles last year. There won’t be as many off days in the playoffs this year and they weren’t about to get stuck with a 3 man rotation again.
I think if Joba had been lights out last year then Matt Holliday might be a Yankee right now. Geez what would we talk about then?
Trisha!!!
I realize you addressed me and my heart sang. You’re right – absolutes are an illusion, and what’s more, they are boring.
Hope you’re doing well on this beautiful afternoon, and that the squirrels arre enjoying their lunch
.
I’m about to leave for the day. Enjoy the light-hearted discussion. Things are certainly boiling over here at Lohud.
I’ll backtrack later and see what I missed!
Vizcaino is replaceable and has already been replaced in their system at the A ball level by Stoneburner & Jose Ramirez. Seems like Vizcaino being easily replaced was someone else’s opinion after the trade was made too.
Bodi,
Perhaps they like competition. Perhaps they want to be sure they are making the right move and having those guys compete for the spot helps them in that regard.
Perhaps they feel putting Chamberlain in the bullpen (if it shakes out that way) and Hughes in the rotation makes them a better team.
Perhaps they changed their minds and believe Joba’s best spot is in the pen but want to be sure before making that move.
Perhaps they believe a year of Joba in the pen will help him develop. As it did Hughes last year.
There are plenty of legitimate reasons why they are doing what they are doing.
Trisha,
Brian Cashman described the Damon negotiations chapter and verse publicly in several outlets and you still rejected the fact they were interested in re-signing him.
There is no reason to comment on a blog if all of us just want for Yankee pronouncements. Especially when, at times, what they say publicly isn’t what they real feel about a certain situation.
ditmars,
Was that subtle sarcasm? Or have you been living under a rock?
I’m pretty sure that Ian Kennedy is going to be a part of the D-backs rotation this season.
Hold on…
Here’s his player page. Just doesn’t look right with the snake hat.
http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player....._id=453178
And here’s the SP depth chart:
ROTATION
1. B. Webb
2. D. Haren
3. E. Jackson
4. I. Kennedy
5. B. Buckner
6. R. Lopez
7. K. Mulvey
Good for him. No way he would crack the Yankee rotation. Look at how hard it is for Joba and Phil!
Betsy -Romine wasn’t built in a day
March 18th, 2010 at 12:46 pm
I agree, SJ, because we’d have CC, AJ, Andy, a solid Joba and Phil…….Why get another pitcher when they’d have 4 solid starters and they could give the 5th spot to a very promising Phil?
——————
Because as promising as Hughes and Joba are they are still very much unproven. The ML landscape is littered with very promising pitchers who for one reason or the other never lived up to their potential.
The Yankees got lucky and made t through the playoffs last year with 3 starters. Cashman would have been negligent if he thought he could do that again. You simply can not go into the season expecting two very young pitchers who have had their share of ups and downs already to make up 2/5 of the rotation.
Bob, the point is if Joba had done his job last year, I don’t think the Yankees would have made the Vasquez trade – and we would not have had a 3 man rotation because Joba would have been fine as the #4.
Oh, I read a really good comment the other night (not here
) about the brilliance of the Yankees having a competition.
All the players have stuff to prove and things to work on (besides showcasing as trade bait haha). The byproduct is that besides getting a good #5 pitcher (which may or may not be who they really projected), the others are getting something out of it, too.
And let’s face it, all 5 guys know it’s a 2 horse race. But it doesn’t stop them from doing their thing and I don’t think they fret about how the others are doing.
March 18th, 2010 at 11:54 am
Bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes-
i’m usually a big believer in keeping a pitcher at the triple a longer to become a complete pitcher, but that ship may have sailed for hughes and joba .
the time to do it was probably a few years ago.
the difference is that once a player has tasted big league life and had success as both joba and hughes have had, it’s really a major let down to go back to the minors .
if either had really shown a really bad attitude and it was a punishment to make them snap out of it, i could see it, but that’s not the case.
yes buchholz went back down even after he pitched a no hitter in the majors, so i can see your point.
it’s a judgement call and i think the fact that either hughes or joba will be in the bullpen with mariano rivera as a defacto second pitching coach teaching them the right way to play the game makes sending the loser of the 5th starter competition to the bullpen a totally acceptable op,tion
i do hope as CB said yesterday, that hughes or joba will be throwing multiple innings on a regular basis to keep them as stretched out as possible in case they have to fill a need in the rotation that may come up at any time.
eddy gbu
March 18th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
melky got traded the same way bruney got traded.
melky a 4th outfielder, whose would made an expensive bench player.
randy winn compareable he only getting 1.1 million
aroldis v he still 4 or 5 years away from the majors.
sure there is you get a an bove average starter at a discount you take.
atl hm said direxly, they trade javier because of money.
guy finished 4th in cy young last year and you don’t think the yanks got a bargain?
====
You forgot Mike Dunn, who pitched yesterday for Atlanta’s ninth and looked good, like he did when I saw him live. No command issues, gorgeous slider and his heat was there with command.
Melky has more power, less speed than Winn. Also 10 years younger.But it’s not a bad comparison – both are switch guys and both are good defenders who can play all 3 OF positions.
And here are your 2010 Yankees (sorta):
http://arizona.diamondbacks.ml.....p?c_id=nyy
Betsy -Romine wasn’t built in a day
March 18th, 2010 at 12:55 pm
Bob, the point is if Joba had done his job last year, I don’t think the Yankees would have made the Vasquez trade – and we would not have had a 3 man rotation because Joba would have been fine as the #4.
———————–
I guess I don’t understand what your point is.
What happened last year happened and Cashman did what he needed to do.
“SJ, ok, but if that’s the case, can you explain to me why scouts completely jumped off Phil’s bandwagon when he came back from his injuries? If they are so knowledgable, how can they do that to a kid that they thought was a can’t miss? ”
I think you’re giving “scouts” entirely too much credit Betsy. The reason why Hughes lost some luster with some PUNDITS is pretty easy to explain.
The book on him was he was a 19-20 year old kid who SAT in the mid-90′s and had multiple plus pitches.
He hasn’t shown that in the majors… yet.
He’s sat in the low-90′s and has only shown flashes of have 3 or more plus pitches.
But I imagine it’s the velocity thing that’s the key.
yep i remember power lefty reliever.
there are major concerns about his command.
cashman doesn’t think too highly of lefty specialist.
he send phil coke packing too
in fairness yanks got loggan a lefty reliever from atl too
Javy Vasquez = a finished, professional major league pitcher.
Joba Chamberlain = a pitcher woking on becoming a finished, professional major league pitcher.
I really think one of the things that baffled the Yankees is why Joba was only throwing 90-92 mph in the first 2-3 innings last year then started throwing 93-96 again coming out the pen.
That being said, the media reports on this story are completely useless. Most of the media in NY have had an agenda for 3 years when it comes to Joba’s role and the Yankees could be trying to motivate the player to fight for the position.
There are those who have never thought Joba should start. Those who saw him in 2007 as a force out of the pen and just decided that that was his niche in baseball.
The worst thing that ever happened to Joba was coming out like a supernova in 2007.
Analysts are fickle and populist and wont to go with the tide. If Joba wins the starting job and goes on to have a fantastic year, you’ll see how fast people say, see, the Yankees should have never had this guy working out of the pen.
I don’t know and don’t pretend to know what Joba’s future in baseball is. I do know that I heard Cashman say, for the first time just after the Yankees won the WS, that the way Joba pitches out of the pen versus the struggles he had last season would certainly make him think about things. It’s a non-committal statement, yet, said an awful lot.
I don’t think we’ll know for sure the outcome of all this for a year or two.
When Joba’s been on as a starter, he’s been outstanding. When he’s been off, he’s been awful. Not much in between.
However, if Joba ends up being a closer one day, and he excels at that, how can anyone really complain or find fault? We don’t always get what we want or what we expect. And sometimes the cards can lay out so that you think you see what the future holds, but the future can’t and won’t be foretold. And 1 plus 1 doesn’t always equal 2.
i do hope as CB said yesterday, that hughes or joba will be throwing multiple innings on a regular basis to keep them as stretched out as possible in case they have to fill a need in the rotation that may come up at any time.
====
Hughes also went to Triple A last year for a time. I saw him pitch in Allentown last year, and the wind was howling and it was raining. He couldn’t throw his breaking stuff, but he really focused in and got guys to ground and fly out.
He worked very well with the elements to get through it – got out of a BL jam of his own creation doing so. Tough kid, Hughes.
I don’t think Joba needs a complete overhaul.
I saw CB’s post – it – and Tarheel’s innovative 6-man staff – is admirable, but it’s just too visionary for the Yankees.
I’d be thrilled if they’d implement something so unconventional, but I don’t believe they would risk their idea of the status quo.
Randy, I’d like to exhaust all options on Joba as a starter before putting him in the BP. I don’t even particularly care for the whole Joba demeanor thing – because I prefer a phlegmatic closer – like Rivera. Less margin for error closing than starting.
Good discussion again, see you all later.
(P.S. you and Stuckey are really hilarious. I hear all of your comments in a Jack Nicholson voice – think ‘The Shining.” Keep it going, guys – great theater and the humanity tells me you’re not really being cut-throats, even though the hostility is palpable, lol).
Doreen,
Great post.
How about this? If we had only 1 of Phil or Joba, there would be no debate or disagreement about what their role should be.
Starter. No ifs, ands, or buts.
As much as we want to tiptoe around it, they will be linked to each other as long as they’re Yankees.
Stuckey, Scouts never jumped off the Hughes bandwagon…Every trade conversation with the Yanks starts with Phillip Hughes….Even after his 2007 injury, The Twins wanted him as the centerpiece for Santana…Halladay the same thing….The only folks that dropped or lowered the his value were the NY media, and the internet Yankee faithful…..He is still viewed as the Crown jewel of the NY Yankee organization
“Bob, the point is if Joba had done his job last year, I don’t think the Yankees would have made the Vasquez trade – and we would not have had a 3 man rotation because Joba would have been fine as the #4.”
Let me add some prospective to this argument again.
Of Joba Chamberlain simply repeats in 2010 what he did in 2009, he’s be an above-average #4 starter in the Major Leagues.
He’s struggled mightily in mid-August to September, yes (which might have something to do with hitting a career high innings limit and the prohibitive (rules).
He was also regularly frustrating in April-mid-August too, yes.
But he was 23 years old, had relatively little PROFESSIONAL experience (much less Major League) and the expectations placed on him were ENORMOUS.
And at the end of the he was 9-6 with a 4.78 ERA (as a starter) in 31 starts. His ‘peripherals’ were not stellar but hardly awful.
In other, shorter words, he actually wasn’t all that bad, all things considered.
Can we all stop rewriting history to suggest he was awful last year?
Hell, I’d take a 4.75 era in 31 starts from the THIRD starter in a heartbeat if offered. Most major league teams would sign up for that from their 2nd starter.
Why is this so hard for people to understand.
Joba was drafted to be a starter and the Yankees want/wanted to give him every chance to prove he can do that. Once you try it, if it doesn’t work out than you see if he’ll be better suited out of the pen.
That’s how the process works.
If Joba ends up a reliver, it doesnot mean the Yankees were wrong trying to make him a starter.
That’s what any smart organization would do.
It just blows my mind that this just keeps getting beat into the ground over and over and over.
Believe it or not, the Yankees know what they are doing and have plans and contingency plan.
Just sit back and watch and see how it all plays out, knowing that Cashman and all are going to do whatever they think is in the best interests of the team. Or you can sit there and eat up all this media driven noise and drive yourself crazy.
SJ44
March 18th, 2010 at 12:51 pm
Bodi,
Perhaps they like competition. Perhaps they want to be sure they are making the right move and having those guys compete for the spot helps them in that regard.
Perhaps they feel putting Chamberlain in the bullpen (if it shakes out that way) and Hughes in the rotation makes them a better team.
Perhaps they changed their minds and believe Joba’s best spot is in the pen but want to be sure before making that move.
Perhaps they believe a year of Joba in the pen will help him develop. As it did Hughes last year.
There are plenty of legitimate reasons why they are doing what they are doing.
====
All of that is valid.
But they’re failing miserably in keeping their “true” feelings close to the vest, if you, a guy on the internet, and everyone else, is saying they “privately” think he can’t hack starting.
They’re failing miserably, because that’s getting back to the player, putting him in a compromised position, making him look like a clown.
We’re all in the know except Joba, who thinks he’s competing for a starting job.
Ok, I’ll use the term “pundits” since I admit that I’m mostly referring to the Laws, etc… of the world (who also refer to unnamed scouts).
Aren’t pundits supposed to understand the game? Did they watch Phil’s near no-hitter against Texas? The next time they saw him, it was after suffering two brutal leg injuries. The fact that they judged him (and they did) after that doesn’t speak well for him; what did they expect from him?
Phil has said himself that he’s never sat in the mid-90’s, so I’m not sure where these pundits (who probably never saw him in the minors at all) got their notions from. If all they can see is velocity, then I feel sorry for them. When Phil came up and made his debut against the Jays, the Jays were impressed with his stuff; given that it was April and not great weather, I feel confident in saying Phil was not throwing 95/96 (if that’s even what he sits at). They all mentioned the late life on his FB. Shouldn’t that count for something? Phil hasn’t had one stretch where he’s just been allowed to pitch; he missed most of 2007 and 2008 and he was in the pen for most of last year. Even so, he pitched a few great games, especially the game in Texas. The impression I’m left with is that these pundits know absolutely nothing…..and if their unnamed scouts are to be believed, either do they.
“I really think one of the things that baffled the Yankees is why Joba was only throwing 90-92 mph in the first 2-3 innings last year then started throwing 93-96 again coming out the pen.”
I don’t think they were baffled. ALL power pitchers pitch like that. Hughes threw harder outta the pen than he did as a starter too.
Suckey, yopu can take those numbers and your club is a 2nd division ballclub……You are the word man as nobody can twist words to conform to one’s point of view better….3 word monty Stuckey….It’s a gift in away, like those double talking comedians
Pat M, I think other teams value Phil and never really stopped, but I’m not sure they still believe in his ceiling anymore. I don’t think he’s looked at as the crown jewel – I think the Yankees (well, maybe Hank) were bowled over by Joba and it’s been Joba since then.
Doreen, there are people who think Phil should be in the pen – ridiculous. I wouldn’t trust these people to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich nevermind decide the fate of two talented kids.
The real mystery is why Joba hasn’t returned to form.
Betsy, why in the world are you so obsessed with what the Keith Laws of the world are saying?
What does it matter?
Do you care more about how the Yankee organization handles things or what the perception of them is by hacks who are just trying to generate page hits?
Seriously, get a grip.
He was bad enough though Stuckey to have the team lose faith in him as a starter in the post-season and go out and get another proven starter, at a pretty significant cost.
Betsy’s point, which is correct, is that if the Yankees felt his progress was sufficient enough to keep him in the rotation and add Hughes as the #5, they don’t make the Vazquez trade.
Clearly, regardless of how you want to spin the numbers, they aren’t as confident in him as a starter as they were a year ago at this time. If they were, he wouldn’t be in a competition for a slot in the rotation.
“like with losing all your data.
like no one told you to back up your hard drive before.
of course you are a ” “I’ll believe it when I see it” guy.”
”
That’s actually very funny as I had been told many times to back up my hard drive, a few of those times coming after I had computer crashes. When my father always said I had a head like a rock, he knew from whence he spoke.
**************
SJ, I think my point is that since your scouts haven’t always gotten it right and since you say there are times that the organization says things for effect and other times they are being truthful, I don’t rely on anyone’s counsel here 100% of the time since nobody has it right 100% of the time. It’s all conjecture no matter how you dress it.
About Cashman and Damon this year, yes you are right in saying that I had doubts about whether they really wanted him. But if you are saying you believe they really did, all I was pointing out is that last season you told us that your buddies who are close to the Ys told you that the Yankees were not bringing back either Matsui or Damon. So either they got it wrong, or Cashman was blowing smoke.
I LOVE when people discuss different opinions here. Because I oftentimes don’t mind waiting and letting things play out doesn’t mean that it’s an invigorating way to present on a forum! I realize that.
“(P.S. you and Stuckey are really hilarious. I hear all of your comments in a Jack Nicholson voice – think ‘The Shining.” Keep it going, guys – great theater and the humanity tells me you’re not really being cut-throats, even though the hostility is palpable, lol).”
Bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes-
i think stuckey is a a sophist in the contemporary definition who just picks a side arbitrarily and argues it for the sport of arguing.
i really after, all his posts, have no idea what his baseball positions in general are if indeed he has any.
he’s a smart guy who’s worth debating as long as you keep a tight leash on him so he doesn’t hijack the blog and derail a good blog conversation just playing devi’ls advocate.
my favorite thing about last night was stuckey and let’s go yankees going at each other for hours.
talk about killing two birds with one stone .
i have a hunch you will continue to be amused.
glad to provide the entertainment
Last post: I remember a time when the Yankees didn’t have such loose lips.
Bygone days
….or maybe there was no Internet back then, for people to keep their “confidences” intact…?
He does seem to be interested in the mechanics of arguing and debate more than the pith of the argument itself
.
Afternoon.
mel, I haven’t been totally focused on the Yanks over the past several days but didn’t Joba supposedly do really well last night?
So busy talking spring training, didn’t even realize there was basketball on. Nova down 6 near the half.
Let me add some more perspective.
In his first 43 major league starts (this after having only spent grand tolal of 4 and 1/2 months in the minor leagues), the 24 year old Joba Chamberlain is 12-7 with a 4.18 ERA.
I don’t think some folks fully appreciate how extraordinary that is.
The problem, though, is short-term memory and that he finished poorly last year.
Some fans don’t appreciate the often non-linear progression of young talent.
Bob, seriously, just what is wrong with you? I swear, I must have a target on my back. If you post anything else to me Bob, I will be ignoring you, so my advice is to not waste your time. I’m tired of drive by posters questioning every thing I write. IGNORE ME.
trisha,
lol, it took me a second to figure out what you’re talking about.
Yes, he pitched quite well from what I’ve read (mlb.tv was being fickle for me.)
I meant returned to form in the general sense. When he was throwing hard into the 8th inning. Attacking hitters, etc.
There’s no way around it, Joba was bad in the second half of the season.
Even though his few starts post-ASB were great, it didn’t last long. People will point to the rules & restrictions, but I think they started changing things up because he fell off again.
Anyway, the velocity and control thing in general is what I was talking about.
Well, I have Nova going to the Final Four, so they’d better turn it on…
Ledger_Yankees Learned a lot chatting with K. Towers at BP the other day. Says he’s unsure about running a team again, though I’d be shocked if he didn’t. 8 minutes ago
stuckey
March 18th, 2010 at 1:24 pm
Some fans don’t appreciate the often non-linear progression of young talent.
———————
Ain’t that the truth.
Yankee fans are as guilty as anyone. They hear a guy tabbed as a hot prospect and they totally have no clue what a prospect is. They expect them to come to the Majors and be an All Star from day one.
Just look at guys like Romine. 99% of Yankee fans wouldn’t know who he was if he walked up to them, yet they are sure he’s the catcher of the future.
SJ, Your post just make too much sence…
How about we through a few guesses out there as to how many starts Phil and Joba make this year?
I’ll go first.
I believe Phil will make 25 starts and have a similar record to what Joba posted int 2009, 9-6.
Joba will pitch out of the pen and make less than 5 starts.
“I’m about to leave for the day. Enjoy the light-hearted discussion. Things are certainly boiling over here at Lohud.”
Hi Bod!!! Life is good, the squirrels are full, and I have become good friends with several people from India. In fact, I am in the process of contacting them again right now since some of my files won’t restore. Fun fun fun.
I’m so looking forward to the end of spring training so all of this silly speculation can end.
The fact is, Hughes spent a full year in the pen and he’s in line to be the Yankees 5th starter. Why can’t the same thing happen with Joba? It’s not like his innings limits will degrade, that’s not how it works.
Don’t pay attention to all the “high up sources” that say Joba is more suited for the pen. Brian Cashman is too smart to permanently move Chamberlain into the pen. It might happen eventually but one mediocre year is not enough to condemn him permanently to the pen.
The fact is, the Yanks are the defending world champions and they aren’t going to let one of their best pitchers sit in AAA owning a bunch of scrubs.
All this talk of development, I just don’t see it. Joba is at a level right now where he could destroy everyone in AAA with little effort. How would he learn to be a better pitcher if he’s facing inferior competition?
My opinion is that he’ll learn far more by pitching the year out of the pen at the major league level. I think the positives far outweight the negatives.
Bodi,
How do we know if they haven’t told Joba that while allowing him to compete for this job, if he doesn’t get it, they feel he is better off in the pen.
We don’t know what they have told him in that respect.
Knowing how they operate, my guess is, they have been very upfront with him about what they want.
They also most likely told him to keep what they told him to himself and not tell the media! lol
bodhi -
I don’t think anyone really KNOWS what the Yankees are going to do. I think they have a good idea, perhaps, based on certain criteria. I don’t think everyone knows all the criteria that the Yankees are taking into consideration. I don’t think the Yankees have loose lips. Not really.
Before the Vazquez trade, i was concerned about the rotation. I was concerned that Phil would have his innings limits, that Pettitte is older, that AJ is AJ and that Joba was a huge question mark in terms of how many innings he could give you. I was concerned that the bullpen would be overtaxed and there really was no optimum way to construct that rotation to avoid overexposure of the bullpen. At the same time, I felt the Yankees might just have to grit it out for one year with Phil and Joba in the rotation together and hope for the best from both of them.
When they got Vazquez, it was a relief. It was the right move for the team, for the rotation. But you knew it meant there was an odd man ought, who may or may not deserve to be the odd man out. It means that the master plan takes another year to unfold.
But Joba had the opportunity last season to seize the #4 spot and he didn’t do it. It almost doesn’t matter why he didn’t seem able to get a hold of things last season. I don’t believe that is on Girardi or Cashman. Ultimately Joba is responsible for Joba, if the things that were said to be the root of the problem actually were – meaning, his being out of shape, his reluctance to trust his catcher, his lack of focus on the mound, his nibbling. He was approached many times last year, and the he finally wore out (I think) by September. So, this competition is because of Joba. Not Cashman. Not Girardi. Not anyone else.
But, GO JOBA! GO PHIL!
Pat M.
Let me twist some NUMBERS for you. Show me a 3rd starter on a AL 2009 PLAYOFF team with numbers SIGNIFICANTLY better than Joba Chamberlain?
Betsy -Romine wasn’t built in a day
March 18th, 2010 at 1:28 pm
Bob, seriously, just what is wrong with you? I swear, I must have a target on my back. If you post anything else to me Bob, I will be ignoring you, so my advice is to not waste your time. I’m tired of drive by posters questioning every thing I write. IGNORE ME.
————————–
Well you are on here all the time wringing your hands about the same things over and over.
It’s hard to ignore.
“Betsy’s point, which is correct, is that if the Yankees felt his progress was sufficient enough to keep him in the rotation and add Hughes as the #5, they don’t make the Vazquez trade.”
That’s utter subjective wholesale speculation. There is no other way to “spin” that.
“Clearly, regardless of how you want to spin the numbers, they aren’t as confident in him as a starter as they were a year ago at this time. If they were, he wouldn’t be in a competition for a slot in the rotation.”
SJ, exactly how many times do I need to say I agree with you on this point for you to realize I agree with you on this point?
Remember a long time back? When the Yankees sat down with Joba to discuss his role? That meeting was Joba’s opportunity to fight for the chance to be a starter. So, he’d have to be off-the-charts stupid to think that the 100% of the Yankees braintrust thinks he should be a starter.
It’s no big deal. Shuttling back and forth to Scranton. moving to the pen. None of it’s marked or going to damage these two kids.
But, I do think that simple is better for Joba at this very moment. It’s very possible that there’s a lot swirling in his head. And some of 2009 may have been in part attributable to off the field issues.
Stuckey,
I guess its all in how you look at those numbers.
19 decisions in 43 starts. Not good.
Very high WHIP and walk totals. Also, not good.
Many short (5 innings or less) starts. Not good.
He’s struggled enough as a starter to make the Yankees re-think their plans. At least for right now.
That’s all anybody is saying.
They have the same data you possess.
If they felt he was progressing enough to keep in the rotation no questions asked, he would have been given a slot coming into the Spring. That didn’t happen for a reason.
They are less certain of his starting capabilities than they were a year ago.
He either alloys those fears or he is in the bullpen. It ain’t that hard to figure out.
New Post: Lineup tonight vs. Tampa Bay
IGNORE ME.
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Galactic Inquisitor Betsy
“Let me twist some NUMBERS for you. Show me a 3rd starter on a AL 2009 PLAYOFF team with numbers SIGNIFICANTLY better than Joba Chamberlain?”
The number three starter on the 2009 Yankees AL Playoff team was Andy Pettitte. Connect the dots for me. Andy = Joba? In the playoffs?
“i really after, all his posts, have no idea what his baseball positions in general are if indeed he has any.”
- I think there is a far greater chasm between major league pitching and minor league pitcher, than there is between starting pitching and relief pitching.
- I think pitching in the minor league means you aren’t pitching in the major leagues.
- I think Joba Chamberlain wasn’t NEARLY has bad in 2009 as some would like to remember.
- I believe considering his experience, Joba Chamberlain’s early career as a ML starter has been extraordinarily successful.
- I believe there is no evidence to suggest whoever isn’t the 5th starter on opening day will be any less or worse prepared to be a starter in 2011 in they spend 2010 relieving in the majors.
How much clearer do I need to be for you to understand Randy?
Would you like me to post in larger, red front? Perhaps something resembling crayon?
“The number three starter on the 2009 Yankees AL Playoff team was Andy Pettitte. Connect the dots for me. Andy = Joba? In the playoffs?”
I don’t understand the question – genuinely.
“Galactic Inquisitor Betsy”
Explain
Next page >>>>>>>>>>>
http://ignoremeradio.com/wp-co.....isitor.jpg
Most other teams in the league would accept Joba’s first season as being fine being that it was his first full year in a rotation. These teams would give him a rotation spot and expect him to improve the next year.
However, this is the Yankees and there are 4, maybe 5 starters better than Joba is right now. The Yanks got a great deal on Vazquez (who is actually the second best starter on the staff). It really is just a numbers game right now and Joba is on the outside looking in. Next year when there are two open spots, Chamberlain will get another look. His days as a starter are not over.
I don’t understand the question – genuinely.
OK, what was your point about naming a number 3 with better NUMBERS than Joba in 2009 among AL playoff teams
Can someone explain how Mike Pelfrey @ age 25 with a sinker and ZERO plus secondary pitches putting up a 5.03 era pitching in an insane pitchers park in the NL is a starting pitcher.
But Chamberlain @ age 23 with 2 plus secondary pitches putting up a 4.75 era pitching in Yankees stadium as a right hander in the AL east is not a starting pitcher?
How can the NY media judge these 2 pitchers so differently?
It appears to me everyone is thinking a decision on Joba or Phil has to be made before the season starts for their whole career.
The Yankees have the luxury of not having to rush these guys. Perhaps they learned their lessons from the last few years. Also, having Joba & Phil ready gives them starter depth in case they lose a SP this year. A spot start or 2 by a AAA SP until one of Joba/Phil gets stretched out to fill the roll seems smart.
Joba also provides a backup to Mo if he goes down for some reason. This whole off season seems like a positioning of depth and protection against a couple major injuries.
Whether Joba/Phil are SP in 2010, 2011 or 2012 probably doesn’t matter too much to the Yanks. The Yankees have time on their hands and a lot of options. I like their position.