Today in The Journal News
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Mar 18, 2010 
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In order to keep pace in the Yankees fifth-starter competition, Joba Chamberlain needed to pitch well on Wednesday. He responded with four good innings. Joe Girardi singled out three things that made a difference — better pace, better mechanics, better command — all of which led to Chamberlain’s best outing of the spring.
Before Chamberlain got in the game, Andy Pettitte made his first spring start and looked sharp for his first time facing live hitters. The notebook also has items on Damaso Marte’s not-so-good debut, a few outfielders getting some hits and the pitching scheduled for the next few days.
Nice for Andy that he got to face some real live hitters!
So now what? If both Hughes and Joba perform to high expectations and both end up “deserving” the 5th starter role – who gets the nod? If you convert one to a reliever again, I think it’s going to be especially difficult to “recovert” them back to a starter – especially Hughes with this being his second year in a row as a reliever. If he doesn’t get his innings in now, I don’t see how they keep his arm “live” over the course of the season…?
repost
Betsy-
” As to the competition between them, there shouldn’t be, but I think the fans have seen to it that there is. By that, I mean that it’s almost as if you have to choose sides: you’re either a Joba person or a Phil person.”
Morning.
Fortunately, there is a 3rd option- you can be a BOTH person.
Which some of us are. Devoutly so.
Joba pitched three innings, no?
I am still hoping by 2011 both are starters. It is unfortunate that whoever isn’t given the 5th position will be looked at as a loser, b/c they both have a lot to contribute wherever they pitch from.
MTU
March 18th, 2010 at 8:50 am
repost
Betsy-
” As to the competition between them, there shouldn’t be, but I think the fans have seen to it that there is. By that, I mean that it’s almost as if you have to choose sides: you’re either a Joba person or a Phil person.”
Morning.
Fortunately, there is a 3rd option- you can be a BOTH person.
Which some of us are. Devoutly so.
*****************************
I’m a both person!!
He pitched 4 (including the ninth) but “officially” the game was over by the top of the ninth. So officially he pitched three, but in reality he did pitch 4.
Erin-
Welcome to the great both underbelly.
along with myself,bohdi, and tarheel.
here may be others and I apologize for laving you out.
You are however free to join TBU at any time you wish.
Leaving not laving.
I want both of them to help the team.
The front office and not me will decide where that is so no need for me to take sides.
By “better pace”, does that mean Chambermaid wasn’t shaking off the catcher all game again? That would be a nice development.
MTU -
Convoluted as my post was on the last thread, I can certainly see where someone would either skip reading it entirely or miss the idea that I am a “BOTH” person. So, I want to be official and succinct about it, (As succinct as I personally can be),
I am a BOTH person!
Doreen-
Welcome aboard the GBU express.
By the way, I am accepting lineups for GTLU until the official lineup is posted.
So far Fran and upstate kate are participating.
MTU -
Glad to be aboard!
MTU
sign me up for both
Folks make this stuff way too complicated to fit their agendas.
Neither Joba nor Phil are going to AAA. They areakor league pitchers and the Yankees are actually trying to win again. You don’t do that by stashing one of your best pitchers in AAA in case someone gets hurt.
Look at how the Yankees operate. Like it or not, they place greater value in having a quality setup guy for Mo than they do a 6th or 7th starter.
The idea that Joba can’t become a starter again if he is in the pen this year is also inaccurate.
Phil Hughes wasn’t hurt going into the pen last year. In fact, it’s helped his career tremendously. So much so, he may end up in the rotation this year.
If it can work out for Phil, why not Joba?
Whether Joba is a starter long term is a different issue.
The way I see it, it’s a good problem to have. Not nearly the calamity some try to make it out to be.
Doreen-
SS Jeter
DH Johnson
1B Teixeira
3B Rodriguez
2B Cano
C Posada
CF Granderson
RF Swisher
LF Gardner
Thanks!
MTU
March 18th, 2010 at 8:58 am
Erin-
Welcome to the great both underbelly.
********************
Thank you!
Meant to say both are Major League pitchers. I Phone acting up again. Sorry for the typo.
i agree with erin lineup
SS Jeter
DH Johnson
1B Teixeira
3B Rodriguez
2B Cano
C Posada
CF Granderson
RF Swisher
LF Gardner
GBU is a people’s uprising.
A bottom up groundswell. A populist movement.
Fans who refuse to accept the ordinary stale logic(or reality itself).
Royalty may find themselves at the end of a pitchfork.
Slashed by a sickle, or taken to the gallows.
Unless the demands are met for reform.
And both JC and PH are turned into starting pitchahs !!!!
Count me in the “both” catagory. That’s why sending one to AAA is a waste of time.
Unless they start counting Scranton’s win totals on the Yankees ledger, sending one to AAA accomplishes nothing.
the loser of the 5th spot should go to the pen until there is an opportunity to get them into the rotation
or just put joba in the pen to take over for mo when mo retires
robertson the 7th
joba the 8th
mo the 9th is pretty darn good
this situation will work itself out
they always do
Welcome SJ. Your support for the revolution is most welcome.:)
Demolition photos ……..
http://zellspinstripeblog.com/.....ium-31810/
we have a tough schedule to open the year
boston
tampa
angels
i believe
Your opinion SJ44 – if both Hughes and Joba have a strong spring training and both seem to have earned a fifth spot – who would you give the nod to and what would you do with the other?
What is GBU???
I will not be left out of any awesome secret clubs!
Declare yourself or face the sword.
GBU or not ?
Erica-
GBU is Great Both Underbelly.
Those brave souls who insist that both PH and JC become starting pitchers.
SJ44
March 18th, 2010 at 9:05 am
Hello SJ! I see it starts early again today! Both Joba & Phil stay in MLB not mLB! LOL! It is almost as if some of these folks want to see one of them crash & burn. And they call themselves fans.
I hope everyone who wears a Yankee uniform exceeds their potential and dreams for the Yankees!
MTU,
If you’re a Yankee fan then it makes no sense to NOT be for both.
Blake-
Welcome aboard.
I knew I could count on you.
You are now amongst the enlightened.
And on the side of right and virtue.
Our methods may be different but our aim is the same !
That is what unites us and gives us our strength.
GGBURL.
SS Jeter
CF Granderson
1B Teixeira
3B Rodriguez
2B Cano
C Posada
DH Winn
RF Swisher
LF Hoffmann
MTU-
Yipes- that is quite a declaration you guys are making.
I am sorry, but I am just not ready to declare myself a member.
I am going to be a member of the GOTFG
Sunny,
Hughes.
Why?
I think Joba needs to go back to the bullpen to regain arm strength, mechanics and aggression.
He needs to pitch more and working out of the pen affords those things.
It puts him in immediate attack mode. Something, for whatever reason, he has gotten away from as a starting pitcher.
He can get that back in the bullpen much better than AAA.
And please, don’t give me this nonsense that Melancon and Christian Garcia can give them what Chamberlain can in the bullpen. No they can’t.
Neither guy is as talented or as accomplished as Joba. One cam barely stay healthy in AA.
Hughes is ready for the first crack at the slot. If he struggles, you van reverse the two. Nothing needs to be set in stone.
Like I said earlier, I’m just not of the belief putting Joba in the pen is the national tragedy some are making it out to be.
Especially when you would be hard pressed to find 5 on field baseball people, in and out of the Yankee organization, who believe he doesn’t belong in the bullpen at the present time.
I like both of them and want both of them to be starters. But since that cant happen this yr and one is getting sent to the pen, I’d like to see Hughes be the starter.
Erica-
Very well. A fence sitter ye shall be.
There is always time to change one’s mind and declare.
CC-
You shall be for all intents and purposes classified as GBU.
Which is good.
Look forward to seeing Park finally pitch.
Erica -
Great On The Fence Group?
I think the Majority of Yankee fans (at least I hope) would like to see both Joba and Hughes succeed. The problem comes when the conversation turns to how each should be utilized in 2010 and beyond. To support arguments on how they should be used, people have to state certain things that one does better than the other or give reasons why they feel the way they do. This leads to pitting them against each other and discussion of each’s negatives.
Bottom line, one is going to start and one isn’t so the goal should be to do whatever it takes to makes them both successful. That’s the Yankees job and decision to make, hopefully they will make the right call.
and hopefully once that call is made, fans support both in whatever role they are given
For all of you in the GBU. It would be good if you would wear your badge of honor openly.
In this regard it would be positive if you would follow your handle with “GBU”.
However, it is not required.
It is merely a suggestion.
whats gbu?
Teddy-
Look above. it is defined.
SJ,
I also think that the Joba from 2007 can be better found out in the pen than in AAA. He needs to get that edge back he once had. He’s not going to get it dominating minor leaguers, he’s going to get it dominating major leaguers. If he can regain that confidence and aggressiveness then depending on how the rotation looks this winter they can opt to try him in the rotation again if they choose. I think the most important thing for Joba in 2010 is to be successful. IMO that would help his develoment more than anything else.
Has the blog discussed the possibility of Elijah Dukes filling our 5th OF spot now that he’s been released? I like his talent better than that of Hoffman and Thames, plus he’s still only 25. I think the support system of players already on the squad can help him out as well.
The following people have entered a lineup in today’s GTLU. I will accept submissions until Chad/Sam posts the official one.
upstate kate
Fran (the original) and OPPC member
Erin
teddy
RayVT
Thanks!
>>In 2011 the argument is that the BEST version of Hughes/Chamberlain will come from starting this year and not relieving. Of course they can go from relieving to starting.<>And the argument does not lead to the conclusion that Hughes should go to AAA. Hughes may be the better SP today than Joba regardless of what he did last year and that is all that matters in this competition.”
Again, I have to say that suggesting Phil Hughes is fully prepared to assume the mantle of the Yankees 5th starter not only over Chamberlain but Mitre, Aceves and Gaudin as well “regardless of what he did last year” weakens the argement of the all importance of starting in AAA.
And he he may be a better PITCHER this year in general, not only regardless of what he did last year, but because of it.
Again, we can go around in circles all day again that either Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain will be a better starter in 2011 if they pitch a good portion of the year to AAA hitters as a starter, but I’ve still yet to see any facts to support the position, other than the assumption it will be better for them.
In light of any lack of evidence to support either/or position, I’ll take the sure thing – that BOTH will pitch for the Yankees in 2010.
Of course any Yankee fan should root for both pitchers, but it doesn’t always work out that way. Each message board or blog has their favorites – NYYFans.com happens to be a Joba board. That place will blow sky high if he gets sent to the pen. Pinstripes Plus is more even-handed.
I wasn’t sure that Phil (or Joba) could be starters again next year if in the pen. SJ has convinced me they can, but I think that is really contingent on the Yankees letting them pitch multiple innings. I’m not talking even about innings limits, I’m talking about using different pitches. I thought Joe limiting Phil to 1 inning stints was definitely the wrong move and this year, for either kid, it would be even worse. They really need to pitch multiple innings to keep them stretched out and to allow them to use different pitches.
I think people would be best served forgetting about Christian Garcia until he can stay healthy for at least a year or so and actually perform. He and Melancon are hyped way beyond where they should be, but at least Melancon has performed in AAA.
No to Dukes and the Yankees won’t consider it; he’s a bad guy. Let him work out his problems in therapy, not pinstripes.
i join that club if i can
Teddy-
Welcome to the enlightened.
The difference last year was Hughes was coming off injuries from 2008. That’s why they were careful with his workload.
Joba doesn’t have that problem this year.
Plus, Mariano is 40 and pitched at about 60% in the post-season. I think they want to lessen his workload a bit and giving Joba more innings in the pen could help in that area.
The specifics of the method for GBU members are irrelevant.
It is only the end goal that matters.
rhanks
Doreen – 2010 GTLU
March 18th, 2010 at 9:33 am
Erica -
Great On The Fence Group?
****************
Yes!!!
Truthfully- I haven’t been paying enough attention to make anything near and informed decision.
So I am just hanging on the fence
I could use an assistant GBURL while I am out hiking in the G-dZone (this occurrs fairly frequently).
Any volunteers ?
Duties include welcoming new members and answering basic questions about GBU.
Please let me know if you are interested. It is a non-paying position.
Thanks SJ –
Hughes only pitched about 100 innings last year – is that a concern if he makes the rotation and sticks?
I bet you if it’s the case that Jobe DOES end up in the bullpen that Joe uses him as a closer from time to time when Mariano needs a day or two of rest.
And that would be cool and I’m sure Joba would absolutely love it as well.
Having Hughes, Joba, Mitre, Aceves & Gaudin all stretch out in ST as starters is a good thing. The ones that are with the team in April will be able to go deep in a game when each starter is more likely to come out after 5 or 6 innings than any other month. This is depth.
I have always thought and I have seen things to support my thinking, that preparing as a starter helps to build arm strength needed to be a successful reliever. (Many exceptions, ok Mo!) I think the Yanks would be wise to space starts and tie at least 6 guys to starter lengths in April. Perhaps Joba gets with Andy & Hughes as the 5th guy. Maybe Aceves gets tied to AJ. An Gaudin is the unexpected longman filler.
Does this sound crazy?
It’s remarkable the job the Yanks have done building up pitching depth that these types of debates can take place. Sergio Mitre is probably the No. 9 starter on this team and I bet he could make close to half the rotations in MLB.
If the rotation includes Hughes and the bullpen has Rivera, Chamberlain, Robertson, Park, Mitre and Boone Logan. That still leaves out Gaudin, Aceves, Mitre, Melancon and Albaladejo among others.
Sure seems like they have the resources to move some arms for a corner OF.
Sunny,
No because you base innings limits on previous highs, age, and length of time as a pro.
Hughes previous high was 146 innings. Given that, age and professional time, he could throw up to 175 innings this year.
More than enough for a #5 starter.
bet you if it’s the case that Jobe DOES end up in the bullpen that Joe uses him as a closer from time to time when Mariano needs a day or two of rest.
And that would be cool and I’m sure Joba would absolutely love it as well.
–
Lots of relievers have saves. Hughes, Joba, Robertson, Aceves, Coke
I’m guessing come playoff time, they rotate Hughes back to the pen?
I remember when Coke got his first save, he was hilarious in the post game interview
As the Yankee Stadium demolition proceeds apace, noise, rubble and dust rising, I wonder what Todd Drew’s people would have had to say about all this, a eulogy of subway and coffee cart voices.
86w183 March 18th, 2010 at 10:23 am
It’s remarkable the job the Yanks have done building up pitching depth that these types of debates can take place. Sergio Mitre is probably the No. 9 starter on this team and I bet he could make close to half the rotations in MLB.
If the rotation includes Hughes and the bullpen has Rivera, Chamberlain, Robertson, Park, Mitre and Boone Logan. That still leaves out Gaudin, Aceves, Mitre, Melancon and Albaladejo among others.
Sure seems like they have the resources to move some arms for a corner OF.
——————
It’s good to see that the organization has built up a lot of pitching depth because most teams need it over the course of a season.
Don’t forget, the Yanks had roughly 8 or 9 starting pitchers in camp last season and was forced to pick up a guy like Gaudin off the scrap heap due to the injuries to guys like Wang and Kennedy along with Hughes’ and Aceves’ switch to the bullpen.
They are probably going to need 8 or 9 starters to get through the 162 game grind.
Injuries can pile up fast and the losers of the #5 slot are headed to the pen.
Doreen,
Derek Jeter SS
Nick Johnson DH
Mark Teixeira 1B
Alex Rodriguez 3B
Robinson Cano 2B
Jorge Posada C
Curtis Granderson LF
Nick Swisher RF
Brett Gardner CF
Thanks
Morning all! Happy almost St. Joseph’s Day.
Here’s my hint of the day: Never delete files from your computer unless you know what you’re doing.
Norton Utlity specialists from India have owned my computer for the last 24 hours (and when they take over your computer remotely you have to be in front of it the entire time…) because I did just that and ended up deleting my entire email file.
Here’s my second hint of the day: Back up your data and if you use an online provider and keep getting messages that you need to buy more space, buy it or you will end up with restore files from March 1st meaning you will have lost all of your data and emails from that point on!
I have no preference when it comes to any of our pitchers. My preference is to prefer what the Yankees prefer. I know, I am so dull.
***********
Later today I will link to our season prediction chart and will take more predictions at that time.
Back to India!
That’s why it’s important that the Yankees keep Joba/Phil stretched out, but Joe obviously didn’t feel that way as he kept Phil to 1 inning. In order for either kid to spot start or even be ready to replace a pitcher long term, they need to be stretched out. In that regard, I don’t think they did a good job last year. I think they need to revise how they use Phil/Joba in the pen this year.
Lots of relievers may have saves. Doesn’t mean “lots of relievers” can be effective closers on a consistent basis. Big difference.
If you don’t believe that, go back and read Phil Coke’s quotes about how he felt trying to get his first save. He almost had a heart attack. Hard to imagine he could do that 25-40 times in a season with his emotions that high.
Numbers people like to discount closers. However, its a job not everybody can do. If they could, all of them but Mo wouldn’t have blown saves in last year’s post-season.
Its a tough gig, especially in a big market, and its not for the faint of heart.
Makes it all the more amazing what Mariano has accomplished since 1997.
To change the topic to Gardner for a bit:
It annoys me that Gardner gets little respect. Especially since a guy like Jacoby Ellsbury is labelled as an All-Star. I have always looked at Gardner as the same type of guy without all the hype and their numbers through college (including their age) and the minors were so even it was mind boggling that Ellsbury is labeled such a stud and Gardner is a throw away type guy.
Obviously in the majors Ellsbury has put up better #’s but I believe it is only b/c of playing time.
If you look at Gardner’s stats last year and projected the same # of AB’s that Ellsbury had the numbers would once again be almost exact. Obviously Gardner had some runs scored as a PR but his #’s in that stat would blow away Ellsbury.
Ellsbury had 624 AB’s, scored 94x, had 8 HR, drove in 60 and had 70 SB. Take Gardners #’s and project 624 Ab’s and he would have 120 runs scored, 8 HR, 58 RBI and 65SB. Ellsbury had a higher BA by .30 points but the production level is the same and the OBP was .355 for JE and .345 for BG.
They need to just play this guy every day.
It’s getting close to when Cashman will contact or be contacted about the availability of Gaudin and Mitre.
Cashman is no doubt figuring a deal to include one of them plus Albaladejo for a useful position player to at least be ready at AAA.
rodg12
March 18th, 2010 at 9:50 am
Has the blog discussed the possibility of Elijah Dukes filling our 5th OF spot now that he’s been released? I like his talent better than that of Hoffman and Thames, plus he’s still only 25. I think the support system of players already on the squad can help him out as well.
——————————–
I am fully in the sign Dukes camp.
He is very talented. Talented enough to hold down a corner OF spot for the Yankees for years to come if he reaches his potential. He is also only 25 and still has options so he can be stashed in AAA. He also will only cost around 400K sound at any sign of trouble they can cut him and move one, no problem.
Behavior wise there have been some positive quotes about him reforming and behaving the past couple years. As long as the Yankees know he is not an ax murderer that will chop off Girardi’s head there is not much risk here at all.
Good morning everyone. Especially to pat! Welcome home.
Suggesting that one or the other go to AAA doesn’t make you stupid. It’s just a thought. It’s not banishment or punishment or even a prediction. Just an idea. Blog fodder.
For Joba, I first thought of it when people said that he struggles because, well, he didn’t have the time in the minors. You can’t argue both ways. But having seen how Joba pitched (strictly talking post injury) between ASB and trade deadline (2009) and yesterday, I can say with some confidence that it’s not because he didn’t have the time in the minors. And his mechanics are not whack. I think it’s focus and motivation. Joba with a chip on his shoulder and a fire under his butt has the ability to pitch brilliantly. The trick now is to bottle up whatever it is, so he can be more consistent.
Suggesting Phil go to AAA so he could stay a starter and get his innings is also not a stupid or foolish idea. It’s what many teams would do if they wanted to develop a young starter with option(s).
So, we get it. That’s not how the Yankees operate. But that doesn’t mean people are stupid for thinking that way. It’s just a thought.
Betsy,
Phil was coming off an injury filled year and never relieved before in his career. It took him a month just to figure out how to warm up properly.
They weren’t going to overtax him given those two issues. That’s why he was used in shorter bursts.
Giuseppe… how you doin?
I think the pitching 1-9 is vastly superior to what it was a year ago at this time. Vasquez, Gaudin Aceves and even Mitre a year further removed from surgery are all better options than anything a year ago.
I still want a long term solution for a corner OF slot. I admittedly have a man crush on Andre Ethier but admit he’s not available unless the McCourt divorce gets even uglier.
“It annoys me that Gardner gets little respect.”
Why not wait until he does something to earn respect before being annoyed that he’s slighted of it?
Cashman has said he will not sign any Bad Clubhouse guys, and Dukes is pretty much as bad as it gets in that regard.
Teams don’t take established major league pitchers, which both Hughes and Chamberlain are, and put them in the minors unless they are rehabbing.
They are 2 of the best 8 pitchers on the team. No team in baseball puts 2 of their best 8 pitchers in AAA. Only way they do that is if they are messing with guys service times to save an arbitration year. That isn’t the case with Hughes or Chamberlain.
The object is to win at the major league level. You don’t do that weakening your major league roster.
Dukes is a disaster. On and off the field. When the Nationals outright release you for off field conduct, there isn’t any “reforming” of Dukes.
He’s a guy good organizations avoid because he’s not worth the headache.
Sometimes, babysitting one troubled guy is more problematic than anything else. Something the Yankees have had experience with over the years.
Can’t see them dipping their toes in that troubled water again with Dukes.
Dukes is a disaster. On and off the field. When the Nationals outright release you for off field conduct, there isn’t any “reforming” of Dukes.
—————————–
The Nationals expressly said it was NOT for off the field conduct.
SJ,
They did it with Phil out of ST last season. He was one of their best 12 pitchers. They were prepared to send him back when Wang was coming back. He was one of the best 12 pitchers.
So, it does happen. Even on the Yankees.
But I don’t want to argue with you. I simply wanted to express that we get it. The Yankees are going to take the best 12 pitchers.
Sometimes, we’re just thinking out loud.
But Phil’s like a thoroughbred horse. They can’t hold him back any longer. He wants to bust out of the gate. Right now. Not later. lol.
New Post: Individual tickets on sale tomorrow
Given all the discussion of ‘both’ support, why not have them split every 5th start as the season opens (4 innings apiece)?
That solves the problems of :
1. Keeping them both ‘stretched out’
2. Allows for injuries to any starters
3. Helps you continue to evaluate and work on them
4. Gives your long relievers a ‘guaranteed’ break
Aceves and Gaudin should be able to hold down the longer relief appearances. Which leaves Park, Marte, Robertson, and Mo to finish games. Sounds fine to me.
Doreen
Just saw your question from earlier.
Until Monday afternoon, weather and trees across the road prevented the takeout route but I can now cook things with a propane tank BBQ grill and cast iron cookware I never thought possible.
m
Thanks. It’s good to be home.
The guy has a history of off field issues and is let go for on field issues by the worst team in baseball and he’s going to help the Yankees?
If he can’t make the Nationals, and they didn’t even want to keep him in AAA, then he’s a guy you avoid.
As far as the “P” Word (potential) lots of guys have potential. All kinds of reasons why they don’t live up to the hype.
The Yankees have made a concerted effort in the past two years to rid themselves of headcases throughout the organization.
Can’t see that changing for Dukes.
Dukes? Just starting to put it together. But he’s got baggage. And not the Louis Vuitton kind.
Too marginal a player to deal with. You rehab the Hamiltons of the world. Not the Dukes.
No more GTLU in this thread.
mel, just want to say that I agree with you about the wisdom of having a starter go down to AAA to keep working out and keep stretched out. It isn’t foolish, stupid, or anything to the like. Whether that happens is another question – but it doesn’t mean it can’t or won’t happen. As you pointed out the Yankees have done it before.
“But Phil’s like a thoroughbred horse. They can’t hold him back any longer. He wants to bust out of the gate. Right now. Not later. lol.”
So you want to send a thoroughbred down to AAA.
Yeah, makes sense…
SJ44
March 18th, 2010 at 9:05 am
Folks make this stuff way too complicated to fit their agendas.
Neither Joba nor Phil are going to AAA. They areakor league pitchers and the Yankees are actually trying to win again. You don’t do that by stashing one of your best pitchers in AAA in case someone gets hurt.
Look at how the Yankees operate. Like it or not, they place greater value in having a quality setup guy for Mo than they do a 6th or 7th starter.
The idea that Joba can’t become a starter again if he is in the pen this year is also inaccurate.
Phil Hughes wasn’t hurt going into the pen last year. In fact, it’s helped his career tremendously. So much so, he may end up in the rotation this year.
If it can work out for Phil, why not Joba?
Whether Joba is a starter long term is a different issue.
The way I see it, it’s a good problem to have. Not nearly the calamity some try to make it out to be.
=====
It doesn’t need to be so polarized as you’re making it out to be.
And in the case of Joba, it also depends on what he is ultimately being groomed for.
Joba or Hughes could go to AAA, and still manage to help the Yankees out of the bullpen.
In Joba’s case, the advantages of going to Triple A would be delivery repetition over the course of several innings, not merely a zipperless eighth.
He had a great stretch in his most recent outing where he dramatically changed the eye level on a hitter, finally blowing a FB that exploded up to finish him off.
It struck me, because it was a strategic use of Joba’s arsenal that he turned to great account – something he will need to repeat as he goes through a lineup as a starting pitcher over the course of a game.
If Hughes gets the nod, Joba can do this at Scranton.
The eyes down there on him are not going to be focused on just “results”, so his anticipated domination of AAA hitters is neither here nor there. The Red Sox, when confronted with Buccholz’s command problems, sent him to AAA and he later emerged as a much better pitcher.
They didn’t think ‘Oh, the hitters are soft – he’d be wasting his time.’ That isn’t even a consideration – in Joba’s case, his delivery getting out of whack is potentially keeping him from being the starting pitcher we saw in 2008 prior to Texas and in brief flashes in 2009 (post All-Star break).
The focus at Scranton would be on being consistent with his delivery, and the fact that he will continue to be stretched out is also a practical consideration, because injury to the staff is bound to happen, and one would prefer to see Joba step into those circumstances, then to disturb Aceves in his nearly perfected role of long relief.
He can ride into the bullpen on his horse later in the season, with greater confidence in his mechanics, which he would have been obliged to keep clean over the course of several innings – not just as a fireballer for one.
And I think a Joba with stronger mechanics and greater command would be a much brighter option than one who doesn’t know where the ball is going in a high leverage eighth.
So I don’t think it’s such a polarized thing: he can work in peace on mechanical issues and continue to build his arm up, and can also help the Yankees in the bullpen, if Robertson or someone else hasn’t already emerged in a convincing fashion, as Rivera’s setup man.
As to your comment that they put a higher value on a setup man than they do a 6th or 7th starter, assuming that’s so, I think the more pertinent question is:
Do they prefer a setup man to a decade of front-line starting? If their answer is yes – especially in light of the fact that they are rich in bullpen arms – then they are utter fools.
If they think Joba can’t hack starting because of some health issue or some kinesiological finding, that’s another matter entirely.
That would, however, point up their complete disingenuousness of putting him through this “competition”, which seems unlikely.
Of course, if Joba wins the starter’s job, which is still a viable outcome, then then there won’t be anymore Francesa-like nonsense about him being better served as a setup man.
I get the feeling with Hughes, should he get edged out for the fifth spot, is not being looked upon as a lifelong reliever.
Thank goodness for some sanity prevailing.
Suggesting Phil go to AAA so he could stay a starter and get his innings is also not a stupid or foolish idea. It’s what many teams would do if they wanted to develop a young starter with option(s).
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No M, it’s not a stupid idea.
Hughes himself said working on his changeup in side sessions was not really viable. In spite of being able to work on the grip, he needs a hitter to react to his change and the “change” in velocity.
A changeup is a relative pitch – unless you’ve got one like Christian Garcia. It needs to exert it’s comparable change of speed on an actual hitter.
Bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes-
i’m usually a big believer in keeping a pitcher at the triple a longer to become a complete pitcher, but that ship may have sailed for hughes and joba .
the time to do it was probably a few years ago.
the difference is that once a player has tasted big league life and had success as both joba and hughes have had, it’s really a major let down to go back to the minors .
if either had really shown a really bad attitude and it was a punishment to make them snap out of it, i could see it, but that’s not the case.
yes buchholz went back down even after he pitched a no hitter in the majors, so i can see your point.
it’s a judgement call and i think the fact that either hughes or joba will be in the bullpen with mariano rivera as a defacto second pitching coach teaching them the right way to play the game makes sending the loser of the 5th starter competition to the bullpen.
i do hope as CB said yesterday that hughes or joba will be throwing multiple innings on a regular basis to keep them as stretched out as possible in case they have to fill a need in the rotation that may come up at any time.
SJ44
November 29th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
,
I don’t think Olney’s reported Red Sox offer is going to get it done.
However, if you are the Yankees, you can’t let him go to Boston. Just can’t let that happen.
If it means giving up Hughes, you do it. Mainly because they have and other quality RH prospects in the organization.
Sometimes, to make a deal, it has to hurt a bit.
You don’t lose over . You just don’t.
If they do, that’s a bad call on their part.
SJ44
November 29th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
I don’t think Olney’s reported Red Sox offer is going to get it done.
However, if you are the Yankees, you can’t let him go to Boston. Just can’t let that happen.
If it means giving up Hughes, you do it. Mainly because they have Cha mberlain and other quality RH prospects in the organization.
Sometimes, to make a deal, it has to hurt a bit.
You don’t lose Johan Santana over Phil Hughes. You just don’t.
If they do, that’s a bad call on their part.
SJ44
November 29th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
I don’t think Olney’s reported Red Sox offer is going to get it done.
However, if you are the Yankees, you can’t let him go to Boston. Just can’t let that happen.
If it means giving up Hughes, you do it. Mainly because they have Chamberlain and other quality RH prospects in the organization.
Sometimes, to make a deal, it has to hurt a bit.
You don’t lose Johan Santana over Phil Hughes. You just don’t.
If they do, that’s a bad call on their part.