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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Just a few late night links

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Mar 23, 2010 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Today was an off day here in Tampa. The Yankees will get after it again tomorrow night against the Nationals.

Until then, check out our good friend Marc Carig’s video with Phil Hughes explaining how he grips his four-seam, curveball, cutter and changeup. Hughes also talks quite a bit in the video about the development of his pitches.

A few years ago, the Scranton paper asked me to do a story on the different types of pitches, and they wanted the package to include pictures of pitchers gripping each pitch. That meant finding someone in the Yankees organization to show me a knuckleball grip. Chase Wright agreed to give it a shot for me.

So there’s your random Chase Wright fact for the night.

• Speaking of former Yankees, Dan McCutchen has been named the fifth starter in Pittsburgh. He’ll join Ross Ohlendorf in that rotation.

• Rule 5 pick Zach Kroenke doesn’t have good numbers with Arizona this spring, but the Diamondbacks are likely to open with eight relievers and Kroenke is still in the mix. That link also has some information on Ian Kennedy’s latest spring start.

• Not sure if I’ve already linked to this article, but the other Rule 5 pick taken out of the Yankees organization, Kanekoa Texeira, is very much in the mix for the Mariners bullpen.

Comments

comments

 

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122 Responses to “Just a few late night links”

  1. Giuseppe Franco March 23rd, 2010 at 10:34 pm

    I’ll echo Joe’s sentiments regarding tonight’s discussion on Hughes. Good stuff.

    It’s always fun to watch the youngsters mature as ML pitchers, especially a guy like Hughes, who we have all watched for a number of years now since his debut.

    We all like to see the Yanks snag good players from elsewhere and watch them bludgeon other teams to death, but there’s nothing like sticking with the youngsters in diapers and watching them develop into very good ML pitchers (or everyday players).

    Unfortunately, most of the fanbase doesn’t have that kind of patience.

  2. Bronx Jeers March 23rd, 2010 at 10:38 pm

    Considering the discussion at the end of the last thread I would say that the Hughes video was just perfect timing.

    Cool stuff indeed.

  3. Rich in NJ March 23rd, 2010 at 10:38 pm

    I actually think that most of the fanbase does have patience, if they are given an accompanying rationale for why they should have patience. The problem is that management doesn’t consistently provide that type of messaging.

  4. MG March 23rd, 2010 at 10:39 pm

    I’m a big Hughes fan and can see him winning 11-13 games in 25 starts this year, he’ll probably get skipped whenever possible to keep his innings down. The Yankees rotation is just a long way from the one in 2008 and having Mitre and Aceves in reserve as starters (assuming they will put Joba in the ‘pen and won’t yank him back and forth) is a luxury as both can do a decent job in the starters role, particularly in the #5 spot.

  5. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 23rd, 2010 at 10:40 pm

    I’ve really enjoyed the discussion as well; not only am I being educated, but also entertained.

    It amazes me how much information these pitchers have to have at their disposal. It seems to be a complicated thing to learn how to throw 3 or 4 pitches of high quality without losing the effectiveness of any of them. For instance, Phil hasn’t had great FB command this spring and his curve has been mixed. Is that simply because it’s ST and he’s rounding into form (like everyone else)? Is it simply due to inexperience?

    I said this before, but Phil is still a work in progress. I think he’s going to be a tremendous pitcher, but he’s going to have his ups and downs. I’m realizing now just how difficult pitching is – so, thanks Phil for being my lab rat, lol.

    Chad, the video was very interesting – thanks for posting!

  6. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 23rd, 2010 at 10:41 pm

    MG, long time now see – nice to have you back!

  7. MTU(aka GBURL) March 23rd, 2010 at 10:42 pm

    Betsy-

    Romine wasn’t built in a day, and that applies to Pitcher’s as well. :)

  8. pat March 23rd, 2010 at 10:42 pm

    Three guys from the Yankees minor leagues that most Yankee fans couldn’t pick out of a line-up have a good shot of making major league rosters elsewhere.

    How many Rule 5 guys usually stick? 3 taken from 1 organization seems like it would be a high number but I’m not real fluent in Rule 5.

  9. Nick in SF March 23rd, 2010 at 10:43 pm

    A couple of those homers knuckled a bit as they went over the Monster. :(

  10. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 23rd, 2010 at 10:45 pm

    MTU, so true……..Phil should star in his own reality show: The making of a pitcher. Um, I’d better hold off until he wins the spot, lol.

  11. MTU(aka GBURL) March 23rd, 2010 at 10:46 pm

    Betsy-

    That would be advisable.:)

  12. GreenBeret7 March 23rd, 2010 at 10:46 pm

    MTU

    Add to you list of great curve ballers:

    Nolan Ryan, Whitey Ford, Sam McDowell, Juan Marichal, Camilo Pascual, Pete Ramos and Bert Blyleven. Never got to see Feller’s other than videos, but, it looked like Ryan’s.

  13. Rich in NJ March 23rd, 2010 at 10:48 pm

    Blyleven had the best curve I have ever seen.

  14. MTU(aka GBURL) March 23rd, 2010 at 10:49 pm

    GB-

    You know more than I do about these things.

    I always loved Gibson’s sweeping curve, and of course Koufax’s was incomparable.

  15. Rose March 23rd, 2010 at 10:50 pm

    I’m also a big Hughes fan and think he will do well as the 5th starter. He has good stuff, throws strikes and stays focused.
    Also expect Javy to have a big year as the 4th starter.

  16. Carl March 23rd, 2010 at 10:50 pm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm8oHYRS6hA

    You can see Sandys curve near the end of this video.

  17. Carl March 23rd, 2010 at 10:52 pm

    # Rich in NJ March 23rd, 2010 at 10:48 pm

    Blyleven had the best curve I have ever seen.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.....id=2646896

  18. Pat M. March 23rd, 2010 at 10:52 pm

    Juan Marichal, faced him in a spring traing game when he was with Boston….He was still real good, kind of funky with his delivery, much like Tiant…..He still had a snapper of curveball……Popped up….

  19. MTU(aka GBURL) March 23rd, 2010 at 10:52 pm

    GB-

    With Feller’s FB he almost didn’t need another pitch.

    Plasma. :)

  20. CB March 23rd, 2010 at 10:52 pm

    Dwight Gooden’s curve ball was phenomenal

  21. MG March 23rd, 2010 at 10:53 pm

    Betsy – Romine wasn’t built in a day
    March 23rd, 2010 at 10:41 pm
    MG, long time now see – nice to have you back!
    —————————————————-
    Betsy, thanks, it should be a great year for the Yankees, this team is stacked except in left field and that will change right around the trading deadline unless Gardner shows himself to be a real major league outfielder (I am doubtful but it would be nice to see).

  22. MTU(aka GBURL) March 23rd, 2010 at 10:54 pm

    I guess everybody has their favorites ? :)

  23. Tarheelyank March 23rd, 2010 at 10:54 pm

    Thanks Chad, nice day of work!

    I just have to mention in that Kroenke link if you scroll down you will find a link for the Pat Tillman Foundation. I really can’t express enough how much respect and gratitude I have for Pat Tillman.

    Not quite as long ago, but Doc Gooden could buckle a knee or two in his day.

    Good night all.

  24. Patrick March 23rd, 2010 at 10:55 pm

    Nice video of Hughes.

    I would have liked it if Carig had asked Phil about his slider. In HS Phil’s #2 pitch was a slider but when he was drafted the Yankees made him stop throwing it for fear of injury. He then developed his curve which became his out pitch. The Yanks then let him start throwing the slider again but it wasn’t all that effective any longer so he eventually learned the cutter.

  25. blake March 23rd, 2010 at 10:55 pm

    Hershiser had a pretty nasty hook as well.

  26. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 23rd, 2010 at 10:55 pm

    CB beat me to it – Lord Charles, lol. I always loved Doc even though I despised the Mets and I love the curve in part because I adored watching him throw it. You couldn’t hit that pitch, you just couldn’t.

  27. blake March 23rd, 2010 at 10:56 pm

    Tarheel,

    We’re a minute away from the final 4, or I should say a final 4.

  28. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 23rd, 2010 at 10:56 pm

    Patrick, when did the Yankees let Phil go back to the slider? I never read anything about that.

  29. Tarheelyank March 23rd, 2010 at 10:56 pm

    CB you beat me to it. LOL

  30. MTU(aka GBURL) March 23rd, 2010 at 10:57 pm

    Always been a fan of a curve with serious two plane break and pace.

    My particular bias. :)

  31. Rich in NJ March 23rd, 2010 at 10:57 pm

    Pat Tillman is one of the finest men this country has ever produced. He deserved far better than the treatment he posthumously received.

  32. MTU(aka GBURL) March 23rd, 2010 at 10:58 pm

    Hey.

    Let’s compare scars next. :)

  33. MG March 23rd, 2010 at 10:58 pm

    Don’t forget Jim Palmer in all of this, he could really snap one off straight over the top. It wasn’t at the Koufax or Feller level but very effective off his plus fastball.

  34. yank 57' March 23rd, 2010 at 10:59 pm

    I would have liked to see either Weber or Russo make the team, but am not unhappy with Pena making it. He’s only getting better and is an excellent runner. Thames should do okay, but not sold on Winn. Yanks need a little infusion of youth in this spot. I know vets are important, just sayin’.
    Gaudin is no surprise, just doesn’t have the control needed.
    Can Joba throw 95-97 mph in the pen ? He better be able to or else he’s not long for the team. A starter he’s not!!! ( at least not yet ) He’s still got a problem resting on his shoulders. Mitre should be improved from last year just because he’s had more time pass since TJ surgery. He and Aceves should both help. I wonder how Pettitte will do this year. Great Yank, but is he too much past his prime. Hope not!!! I also like Hughes, still young and has the tools and make-up top succeed. And I sure hope Johnson can stay healthy !

  35. G. Love March 23rd, 2010 at 10:59 pm

    I’ve always considered it one of life’s great privileges to have seen Dwight Gooden pitch in his prime when he first burst onto the scene when I was a child.

    I’ve never seen anyone or anything to equal that. His stuff was beyond electric. It was video game-like.

  36. Patrick March 23rd, 2010 at 10:59 pm

    Betsy,

    I don’t remember, sorry

  37. GreenBeret7 March 23rd, 2010 at 10:59 pm

    MTU(aka GBURL)
    March 23rd, 2010 at 10:49 pm
    GB-

    You know more than I do about these things.

    I always loved Gibson’s sweeping curve, and of course Koufax’s was incomparable.

    ————————————————————

    Ryan and and the big lefty Sam McDowell threw 100+ and had a Koufax like curve. Koufax is what McDowell should have become. Alcohol killed his career. Ted Danson’s Mayday Malone was based on Sam McDowell.

    Four other bypassed curve ballers are Bobby Shantz, Billy Pierce, Eddie Lopat and Johnny Sain, who taught the curve and everything he knew about pitching to Jim Kaat. With your’s these are the very best that I’ve seen, though Lopat and sain are mostly or wholly from tape.

  38. Tarheelyank March 23rd, 2010 at 11:01 pm

    Yeah blake

    It’s kind of nice. They are beating some pretty good teams.

  39. Pat M. March 23rd, 2010 at 11:01 pm

    The Dutchman had this breaking ball that would cover 2 zip codes….

  40. m March 23rd, 2010 at 11:02 pm

    Just finished reading through the last thread.

    Great discussion, everyone!

  41. MTU(aka GBURL) March 23rd, 2010 at 11:02 pm

    GB-

    Didn’t Drysdale and Padres
    have good curves also ?

  42. blake March 23rd, 2010 at 11:03 pm

    “It’s kind of nice. They are beating some pretty good teams.”

    If they could win this thing or make it to the final at least it would maybe give them a little momentum for next year…hopefully.

  43. yank 57' March 23rd, 2010 at 11:03 pm

    Blyleven had a great curve !

  44. MTU(aka GBURL) March 23rd, 2010 at 11:03 pm

    Pat M.-

    I like the ones that can be brought in from orbit at will. :)

  45. Tarheelyank March 23rd, 2010 at 11:06 pm

    blake
    I just noticed Vtech may be a next round opponnent. I want to beat them bad. I think even more than just momentum, It’s that taste of winning the big games. Yeah it’s kind of nice. :D

  46. GreenBeret7 March 23rd, 2010 at 11:07 pm

    MTU(aka GBURL)
    March 23rd, 2010 at 11:02 pm
    GB-

    Didn’t Drysdale and Padres
    have good curves also ?

    Podres was pretty much in the Sain/Lopat/pierce mold. Ford was like Warren Spah. He threw EVERYTHING including a much better fastball than given credit for.

    Drysdale was more fastball, sinker, slider and occassional curve. I say sinker with tongue firmly planted in cheek. A really nasty spitball.

  47. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 23rd, 2010 at 11:08 pm

    Patrick, no problem – thanks!

  48. blake March 23rd, 2010 at 11:08 pm

    “I just noticed Vtech may be a next round opponnent. I want to beat them bad. I think even more than just momentum, It’s that taste of winning the big games. Yeah it’s kind of nice. ”

    My wife and her whole family are hokies. House divided…of course she really only cares about football.

  49. MTU(aka GBURL) March 23rd, 2010 at 11:09 pm

    Tonite when I dream.

    I am going to try to imagine a pitcher with Feller’s FB, Koufax’s curve, Wilhem’s Knuckler,and Santana’ CU.

    That ought to work. :)

  50. blake March 23rd, 2010 at 11:10 pm

    “I am going to try to imagine a pitcher with Feller’s FB, Koufax’s curve, Wilhem’s Knuckler,and Santana’ CU.”

    You’re going to dream about Kei Igawa?

  51. GreenBeret7 March 23rd, 2010 at 11:10 pm

    Pat M.
    March 23rd, 2010 at 11:01 pm
    The Dutchman had this breaking ball that would cover 2 zip codes….

    ————————————————————

    The old Senators/Twins teams always had great curve ballers…perhaps because they had so many Cuban pitchers, but, also because of Johnny Sain.

  52. Rich in NJ March 23rd, 2010 at 11:12 pm

    “You’re going to dream about Kei Igawa”

    I think his post was in code.

  53. Pat M. March 23rd, 2010 at 11:12 pm

    MTU…Blyleven’s curveball had so much air time it came down wet…..Insane and very hard on the eyes

  54. Tarheelyank March 23rd, 2010 at 11:14 pm

    “of course she really only cares about football.”

    blake

    Good she won’t get to upset with you after the next game. ;-)

  55. Rich in NJ March 23rd, 2010 at 11:15 pm

    And Blyleven should be in the HoF.

  56. blake March 23rd, 2010 at 11:15 pm

    “And Blyleven should be in the HoF”

    Yes.

  57. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 23rd, 2010 at 11:18 pm

    I read a report that ESPN radio said that Joba is going to win the # 5 spot, that he has the inside track…

  58. blake March 23rd, 2010 at 11:19 pm

    Peter Gammons is reporting from Indians camp on the Indians. After he started talking it took him 6 seconds to mention the Red Sox..wow.

  59. MTU(aka GBURL) March 23rd, 2010 at 11:19 pm

    Blake-

    “You’re going to dream about Kei Igawa?”

    lol.

    I want my dream to be pleasant !

    Pat M.-

    The pitching version of Air Jordan. OK.

    Nite All.

  60. Rich in NJ March 23rd, 2010 at 11:21 pm

    Betsy

    Can you be more specific? Like whose report was it?

  61. CB March 23rd, 2010 at 11:21 pm

    There are many occassion’s where this board can just turn very frustrating, where it gets crowded by negativity and argument for the sake of arguments.

    Then there are nights like tonight where it really is conducive to great baseball talk and conducive in a very unique way.

    Tonight has been a terrific series of discussions that have brought together a diverse group of people sharing their own individual perspectives in an original and fruitful way. It’s a very good example of what this blog does at its best.

    I wanted to thank everyone for that.

  62. m March 23rd, 2010 at 11:22 pm

    blake,

    LOL. I always thought that it was in my imagination that Gammons always makes it about the Red Sox. Even when it’s not.

    Oh, well. What else should be expected of the Red Sox Nation President?

  63. MTU(aka GBURL) March 23rd, 2010 at 11:22 pm

    Betsy-

    At this point, all this stuff isn’t worth a trip to Botswana. :)

  64. blake March 23rd, 2010 at 11:25 pm

    m, to be fair he did go on to actually talk about the Indians the rest of the time but it does seem that he always wiggles at least something about the Red Sox into everything he does.

  65. Pat M. March 23rd, 2010 at 11:25 pm

    GB, Koufax’s fastball actually had a rise to it……I’ve mentioned this before, I was 11 years old and watched Sandy pitch in Game 1 of the 63 Series…The thing that I still remember was the sound of his fastball popping into Roseboro’s mitt…..That and him dissecting the Yanks lineup to the tune of 15 k’s…..

  66. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 23rd, 2010 at 11:26 pm

    Rich, it was just some post on NYYFans where the poster said that, per ESPN radio, Joba has the inside track. I guess I realize it means nothing as how on earth would anyone know what the Yankees are thinking?

  67. blake March 23rd, 2010 at 11:27 pm

    CB, you always bring great analysis and conversation and I’d like to thank you for that.

    I’m off to bed now.

  68. Pat M. March 23rd, 2010 at 11:28 pm

    CB….Everyone is being good tonight because you’re here !!!!! But you’re right about the flow and context of tonight…..We used to have these nights far more often that not at one time…..The beginning of a new season maybe ???? I hope so….

  69. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 23rd, 2010 at 11:29 pm

    CB, you’re a big part of that – thank YOU, and thank you to everyone else as well. Tonight is a perfect example of why I go to this board if I want to be educated. I know I ask a lot of questions, but baseball is my favorite sport in the world and I want to know as much about it as possible.

  70. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 23rd, 2010 at 11:30 pm

    MTU, lol……..

  71. pat March 23rd, 2010 at 11:30 pm

    Tomorrow is going to be Federal Prosecutor Day in Yankee Camp.

    First chance for the media to ask Alex about meeting with the Feds on Friday and now the Times is reporting Canseco tweeted the following today,

    “Omg I just got a subpoena to testify before the grand jury about roger clemens,andrew pettitte and others on Thursday april 8 2010 at 100 pm”

    Never heard of a Canseco/Pettitte connection before so that’s a head scratcher.

  72. m March 23rd, 2010 at 11:32 pm

    So. I just saw the Swisher commercial. If there’s anything creepier than Sweet Caroline being sung at Fenway, it’s Buchholz singing it on t.v.

    Anyone know who’s sitting next to Buchholz?

  73. Rich in NJ March 23rd, 2010 at 11:33 pm

    As much as I would like to think otherwise, Canseco has been telling the truth much of the time, so I can’t dismiss what he says.

  74. m March 23rd, 2010 at 11:35 pm

    Remember when Canseco said he had info on A-rod? And people dismissed it as an extortion attempt?

  75. GreenBeret7 March 23rd, 2010 at 11:41 pm

    Pat M.
    March 23rd, 2010 at 11:25 pm
    GB, Koufax’s fastball actually had a rise to it……I’ve mentioned this before, I was 11 years old and watched Sandy pitch in Game 1 of the 63 Series…The thing that I still remember was the sound of his fastball popping into Roseboro’s mitt…..That and him dissecting the Yanks lineup to the tune of 15 k’s…..

    ————————————————————

    LMAO. Yeah, but, not according to all of the physisists and other big heads that insisted that a baseball thrown by a pitcher couldn’t rise…that it was an optical illusion. Tell that to the poor suckers that would line Koufax up and swing under it by 6 inches. Remember all of those debates? McDowell threw much like that, too. Must have been a left handed thing. Koufax was just amazing for his last 6 uears. As good as there ever was for that stretch of time.

  76. GreenBeret7 March 23rd, 2010 at 11:41 pm

    not according to all of the ***physicists*** and

  77. GreenBeret7 March 23rd, 2010 at 11:45 pm

    Pat, Mantle talked about that sound, too. Said he had only heard that sound twice before…to hear the sound of the threads cutting through the air…McDowell and Herb Score. He said that Feller’s hard curve and fastball were gone by the time he got to the majors.

  78. Tala08 March 23rd, 2010 at 11:46 pm

    A New York Times article said Canseco was asked about A-Rod when he was asked about Clemens. If so, people wonder why you have all your ducks in a row before just entering into an “interview” with federal agents. They always find a way to veer off from talking about the intended “target”, in this case Galea.

  79. rodg12 March 23rd, 2010 at 11:58 pm

    Agree with the sentiment posted by CB and others…outstanding discussion tonight!!

    GB – Where would you rank Doc’s curve??

  80. Phil the Thrill March 23rd, 2010 at 11:59 pm

    Rod Scurry had a great curveball.

    Though, he should NOT be in the Hall of Fame.

    Camillo Pascual apparently had a great curve.

    So did Seaver.

  81. GreenBeret7 March 24th, 2010 at 12:11 am

    rodg12
    March 23rd, 2010 at 11:58 pm
    Agree with the sentiment posted by CB and others…outstanding discussion tonight!!

    GB – Where would you rank Doc’s curve??

    ————————————————————

    Damned, Rodg. Give somebody else the hard questions. I want to look smart.

    His was great and more like Ryan’s from the right side, because it was so hard, but, for just pure nastiness, Koufax, Ryan, score and Gooden.

  82. Peter Gammons March 24th, 2010 at 12:18 am

    I am not just the president of Red Sox nation, I am also a client.

  83. Peter Gammons March 24th, 2010 at 12:21 am

    This is Peter Gammons, reporting from inside the Red Sox (insert body part here), where it smells like roses tastes like cookies.

  84. Peter Gammons March 24th, 2010 at 12:22 am

    This is Peter Gammons, reporting from inside the Red Sox (insert body part here), where it smells like roses and tastes like cookies.

  85. Alan March 24th, 2010 at 12:45 am

    You know who had the sickest curve that no one talks about? Jerry Cuseman – 69 Mets.

    Thing just froze people left and right..

  86. rodg12 March 24th, 2010 at 12:45 am

    GreenBeret7 March 24th, 2010 at 12:11 am

    Damned, Rodg. Give somebody else the hard questions. I want to look smart.

    His was great and more like Ryan’s from the right side, because it was so hard, but, for just pure nastiness, Koufax, Ryan, score and Gooden.
    —————————
    Haha. Sorry to put the pressure on ya. ;) I do appreciate the response. Koufax must have been something else, wish I could have seen him.

  87. Pat M. March 24th, 2010 at 12:53 am

    Alan, That’s a great call on Koos, his breaking ball was so hard to pickup even for right hand hitters….He was tough ….Great curve and he threw a hard tight curve or slurve

  88. GreenBeret7 March 24th, 2010 at 1:00 am

    Pat M.
    March 24th, 2010 at 12:53 am
    Alan, That’s a great call on Koos, his breaking ball was so hard to pickup even for right hand hitters….He was tough ….Great curve and he threw a hard tight curve or slurve

    ————————————————————

    The last of the great Yankee curve ballers was Al Downing. That big fastball and a curve that would bring tears to the eyes of a rocking chair. Such power and movement from a little guy.

  89. Jerkface March 24th, 2010 at 1:01 am

    Hughes cutter has good late movement but not a lot of depth. I was honestly hoping that this spring it would be a better pitch than it is. Hopefully it continues to improve.

    Just wanted to jump on this point by CB. Hughes’ cutter is weird because its more like a tiny slider. Its 88 MPH, and has a lot of vertical break, but almost no horizontal break. Its a really hard mini-slider. I’m not sure if thats his intended effect, but it only measured 0.18 inches of horizontal break vs 6 inches of vertical last season.

    Now an interesting thing is that he also threw his slider some, and he started throwing it really in 2008 but it wasn’t his highschool slider it was a cement mixer (to answer Betsy’s question), which has the same 88 mph speed, 4 inches of vertical and 2 inches of horizontal. It lost 50% of its horizontal movement from 2008.

    Mariano is about 6 and 3 respectively. The king of the cutter.

    Lester is 4 and 1.5

    Hughes curveball is a much bigger loopier curve than Burnetts, which is typically 79-84. Hughes was down to 72 on his curve in 2008, but brought it back up to 77 in 2009. I’d like to see him vary that.

    But varying speeds and break on your pitches comes with time.

    All stats from http://pitchfx.texasleaguers.com/

  90. GreenBeret7 March 24th, 2010 at 1:03 am

    rodg12
    March 24th, 2010 at 12:45 am
    GreenBeret7 March 24th, 2010 at 12:11 am

    Damned, Rodg. Give somebody else the hard questions. I want to look smart.

    His was great and more like Ryan’s from the right side, because it was so hard, but, for just pure nastiness, Koufax, Ryan, score and Gooden.
    —————————
    Haha. Sorry to put the pressure on ya. I do appreciate the response. Koufax must have been something else, wish I could have seen him.

    ————————————————————

    Every so often they have his games on MLB. He has to be seen “live” to be believed, though. You watch the hitters and it’s almost a fist fight as to who doesn’t have to play that day.

  91. Rich in NJ March 24th, 2010 at 1:12 am

    Nice link, jerkface, and a good analysis.

  92. Pat M. March 24th, 2010 at 1:21 am

    GB….Gentleman Al Downing…What a talent when he first showed up on the radar..He and Jimmy Bouton…I watched from the bench when he came to Fort Lauderdale after he was traded to the Dodgers…He had some close ties to some of the Yankees players at that time…..He was sneaky fast with a running fastball that just tied up righties…..Good man

  93. Jerkface March 24th, 2010 at 1:30 am

    I should correct, I think his cutter is like a mini-curve. Its all break, and almost no horizontal action.

  94. GreenBeret7 March 24th, 2010 at 1:34 am

    Pat M.
    March 24th, 2010 at 1:21 am
    GB….Gentleman Al Downing…What a talent when he first showed up on the radar..He and Jimmy Bouton…I watched from the bench when he came to Fort Lauderdale after he was traded to the Dodgers…He had some close ties to some of the Yankees players at that time…..He was sneaky fast with a running fastball that just tied up righties…..Good man

    ————————————————————

    They had that string of great young pitchers coming up that started with Bill Stafford, Roland Sheldon, Hal Reniff, Downing, Bouton, Mel Stottlemyre and then the 2nd run with Rick Beck, Bill Burbach, Fritz Peterson and Stan Bahnsen. They all got hurt and a couple were traded and the run was over until Guidry came into view. They picked up a young Freddie Talbot in the mid 60s, who should have been good.

  95. GreenBeret7 March 24th, 2010 at 1:44 am

    I was never so mad as when the Yanks traded Bill skowren to the Dodgers in the winter of 1962 for big Stan Williams, who was a younger version of Don Drysdale. Just never worked out, though. He did become an outstanding closer in the 60s, though…with other teams. I didn’t realize that Skowren was traded to make room for Joe Pepitone, who should have been so mich better than he was. What a character, though.

  96. CB March 24th, 2010 at 1:48 am

    “Its 88 MPH, and has a lot of vertical break, but almost no horizontal break. Its a really hard mini-slider. I’m not sure if thats his intended effect, but it only measured 0.18 inches of horizontal break vs 6 inches of vertical last season.”

    Jerkface,

    Your point on the slider is an interesting one but I think you’re misinterpreting the pitch f/x data some. I’m tired and about to go to bed so I may be off with this comment so take it with a grain of salt but I think what I’m saying is accurate.

    In general, sliders don’t have much “vertical” movement relative to the origin (0,0) in pitch f/x data and have much more horizontal movement. For example, CC who has arguably the best slider in baseball has -0.53 vertical movement and -4.2 inches horizontal. That’s excellent movement for a slider in two planes.

    In terms of the inferences that can be drawn from pitch f/x data, for a cut fastball having “a lot of vertical movement” along the positive axis is generally a bad thing unless it simultaneously has a large horizontal movement component to it. If there’s a large horizontal component then a lot of vertical + movement can be helpful in terms of generating deception because the hitter can get fooled into thinking the pitch is a four seam fastball. But that really depends on the balance of forces.

    In general though, you want the cut fastball to look like a four seamer but to then separate from the 4 seam fastball with it’s movement – it should act and move differently.

    So Hughes 6.67 vertical movement isn’t really “good.” The lack of horizontal movement also isn’t a positive. Now what pitch f/x doesn’t give you is a qualitative description of how the movement occurs and hughes cutter does move “late” and that’s what makes Hughes’ cutter work.

    Compare Hughes’ cutter to Andy’s. Andy has 7.5 inches vertical movement but 1.7 inches horizontal. It’s that horizontal component that makes Andy’s cutter.

    Compare Andy and Hughes’ cutters to Jon Lester’s. Lester has a better cut fastball than either Hughes or Andy. Lester’s cut fastball with 4 inches of vertical movement and -1 horizontal. It is “better” because than Andy’s even though it has less horizontal movement because it has more depth to it (less rise = closer to pitch thrown with no spin = more depth in along the y component of the vector).

    Lester’s slider is very different than his cut fastball having -0.10 vertical movement and -1.83 horizontal. So as with CC’s slider Lester’s slider has vertical movement close to 0 with a more pronounced horizontal component.

    Now that doesn’t mean that slider’s don’t “move” vertically downwards. The closer to zero the more difference they generate compared to the four seamer. But in general cut fastball’s have more relative “rise” and + movement in along the y axis compared to a slider.

    In general you want the cut fastball to have more depth and bite. That means less + vertical rise and more horizontal movement.

    And then there is Mo. The big thing with Mo is how much horizontal movement he gets with the cutter and how relatively “late” it comes.

    Mo’s cutter is the cutter that is actually closer to a slider because of the ridiculous horizontal movement he gets. In a sense Hughes cut fastball is very similar to Mo’s in terms of the vertical movement but nothing like Mo’s in terms of the horizontal.

    That’s why Hughes doesn’t miss as many bats with his cutter compared to Mo (or to Lester).

    So actually the big problem with Hughes’ cutter is that it’s not enough like a slider.

  97. Pat M. March 24th, 2010 at 1:49 am

    GB..The Moose had a great series in 1963 vs his old team as the Dodgers swept the Bronx Bombers who were considered unbeatable….The Yanks won 104 games or so that season and were something like a 5-1 favorite to beat a Dodger team that averaged slightly more than 3 runs a game…..Yanks were the Bronx Bombers, but in reality, it was the beginning of the end for the Mantle Era Yankees…..

  98. CB March 24th, 2010 at 1:51 am

    “I should correct, I think his cutter is like a mini-curve. Its all break, and almost no horizontal action.”

    Any decent curve will have a large negative movement along the Y axis. Hughes cut fastball doesn’t approach that kind of action.

    Hughes cut fastball is really almost a “mock four seam fastball” – it’s a pitch that rises less and lacks the arm side run that his true four seam fastball has.

  99. CB March 24th, 2010 at 1:58 am

    Goodnight all.

  100. GreenBeret7 March 24th, 2010 at 1:59 am

    Pat M.
    March 24th, 2010 at 1:49 am
    GB..The Moose had a great series in 1963 vs his old team as the Dodgers swept the Bronx Bombers who were considered unbeatable….The Yanks won 104 games or so that season and were something like a 5-1 favorite to beat a Dodger team that averaged slightly more than 3 runs a game…..Yanks were the Bronx Bombers, but in reality, it was the beginning of the end for the Mantle Era Yankees…..

    ————————————————————

    That Dodger pitching staff was just unbeatable. Hard to believe that their worst pitcher was Sandy Koufax with a 1.50 ERA.

    Moose just hit everything, like he never left…except it was for the wrong team. How odd that he hit under .190 during that season.

    Something that you’ll never see again. The Dodgers only used FOUR pitchers in the 4 game sweep. Ron Perranowski pitched .2 innings in relief of Johnny Podres.

  101. Pat M. March 24th, 2010 at 2:01 am

    My heart still aches from that October……I just couldn’t understand

  102. Jerkface March 24th, 2010 at 2:05 am

    CB,

    That makes a lot of sense, thanks for explaining that. Hughes gets a lot of rise on his fastball, maybe the lack of rise on his cutter is enough to throw off hitters, but I think I agree with Patrick that the pitch needs to improve before it becomes a liability.

  103. Rich in NJ March 24th, 2010 at 2:05 am

    http://www.hardballtimes.com/m.....ch-slider/

    … Sliders are kind of like the “middle children” of pitches, with more cut than a cut fastball but less cut than a curveball. For this reason, sliders can often be hard to identify, as many pitchers throw their sliders with very similar movement to their curves or cutters. This resemblance also provides a lot of leeway to the pitcher for throwing a slider, as some are thrown hard with little vertical movement compared to the fastball and others are thrown softer with a big speed difference and large vertical movement. Some pitchers will actually throw two different types of sliders.

  104. GreenBeret7 March 24th, 2010 at 2:08 am

    Pat M.
    March 24th, 2010 at 2:01 am
    My heart still aches from that October……I just couldn’t understand

    ————————————————————

    I feel the same way….not quite as bad as ’57, ’60 and ’64, though. I thought the NYYs were the better teams in those years. I though NYY could get to Podres and Drysdale, but, Koufax scared me to death. I really believe that he would have started 4 times if the game went 7.

  105. GreenBeret7 March 24th, 2010 at 2:09 am

    if the ***Series*** went 7.

  106. Pat M. March 24th, 2010 at 2:22 am

    I’ll be needing feedback from anyone who wants to offer some teans for me to look at regarding the over / under pool I invested in…..Go to Vegas watch and all the lines will be there….I’m looking at just 5 teams that stand out either over or under the projected season wins…….The Reds ( 78 ) Twins ( 82 ) White Sox ( 82 )Milwaukee ( 80.5 ) Giants ( 83 )Pittsburg ( 71 ) ( Angels 84 )these clubs are overs….

  107. Carl March 24th, 2010 at 2:23 am

    GreenBeret7

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjmkVNG1_-M

    GreenBeret this is for you my friend :)

  108. Carl March 24th, 2010 at 2:26 am

    I’m sorry Green but that is for Pat M :)

  109. GreenBeret7 March 24th, 2010 at 2:37 am

    That video still hurts. Mantle was usually a great breaking ball hitter, and in that game, he had no chance.

    For whatever reason, through all of those years, Whitey Ford was never a real good match against the Dodgers.

  110. GreenBeret7 March 24th, 2010 at 2:43 am

    Pat, are you wanting 5 other teams or just from those that you listed? If it’s just these, all are over except for the Angels and Brewers.

  111. Pat M. March 24th, 2010 at 2:48 am

    GB, Any five or so teams that you like…Just indicate over the projected win total or under……Sorry Carl, I still don’t get a warm and fuzzy feeling when I watch those cliups from 1963….Especially game 1, I was in shock that this could happen to my bigger than life Bronx Bombers…..Some of those Koufax heaters made such a pronounced pop when hitting the mitt…I can still hear it today……Good night Yankee faithful…..Any help GB wil go along way…..This has proven to be a major task, I have to play all 30 teams

  112. GreenBeret7 March 24th, 2010 at 2:51 am

    Ouch. 30 teams, huh? I’d rather take a whoopin’. I’ll give you my list of 30 sometime tomorrow for you to pick from.

  113. Carl March 24th, 2010 at 5:51 am

    http://www.nypost.com/p/sports.....z0j58s8H31

    Granderson to star in Center.

  114. Carl March 24th, 2010 at 5:52 am

    start***

  115. upstate kate March 24th, 2010 at 7:37 am

    Carl
    lets hope he starts and stars :)

  116. Lee23 March 24th, 2010 at 7:49 am

    Any idea who’s pitching tonight? I’m going to my 1st Spring Training game since seeing the Yankees in Ft Lauderdale. Used to go all the time to those, ballpark was across the street from my husband’s work. Never been to The Boss… really looking forward to seeing starters getting a lot of playing time (late in ST, rain-out Sunday, off-day yesterday)…but there’s no mention of pitching anywhere..
    :(

  117. blake March 24th, 2010 at 7:52 am

    Couple things separate Mariano’s cutter for me: the velocity he can throw it at and how late the movement is. The limited number of cutters I’ve seen Hughes throw seem to start their movememt earlier than ideal and that’s the real key to the pitch..to make the hitter think its a 4 seamer until they swing and realize its not.

    You always hear reporters marvel at how Rivera has done what he has with one pitch. In reality it isn’t one pitch at all. They are all fastball variations but he greatly varies the speed and break on the cutters and has recently thrown a lot more 4 seamers to keep guys honest.

    Hughes is still developing these pitches and learning how to use them. A guy like Halladay can throw a whole game and almost never throw the same pitch twice (when you consider velocity and break). I think Hughes can be like that in time because he has such good mechanics and command. Time will tell.

  118. Tarheelyank March 24th, 2010 at 7:59 am

    Nice post blake. have a good day everybody.

  119. upstate kate March 24th, 2010 at 8:11 am

    Lee
    enjoy the game, whoever is pitching!

    Blake
    Lucky for Phil he can learn from the master. I get a kick out of when hitters are interviewed w/ regards to Mo. They say they know what is coming, but still can’t hit it.

  120. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 24th, 2010 at 8:20 am

    If Phil wants to, he could improve it because he seems to pick up pitches rather quickly. I’m not sure how much time he spent working on the cutter last year – it’s not like it was his primary pitch. It seems like something he was toying with and it worked for him. As someone mentioned yesterday, however, Phil had a lot on his plate this spring, starting with developing his change. I would imagine that tinkering with his cutter or curve shouldn’t be too difficult – it’s not like he’s got to start all over. I guess he can do that in side session. The question is : if you guys have noticed this stuff, have Phil and/or the Yankees?

  121. Boston Dave - XXVII March 24th, 2010 at 10:18 am

    It’s really hard not to like Phil. Hopefully he’ll be one of those Yankees that’s reall hard for opposing fans to hate (Jeter, Bernie, Mariano, etc)

    I love watching smoke come from Sox fans heads when they tried to think of ridiculous, unwarranted reasons to hate those guys… especially after one of them had just made a huge play or won the game.

  122. sandy g March 24th, 2010 at 12:09 pm

    the yankees should change the fence in center field in front of the monuments to a see through fence so that you can see monument park and the monuments while watching the games on tv.

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