Today in The Journal News
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Mar 23, 2010 
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Phil Hughes allowed three home runs including a walk-off on Monday, but he and Joe Girardi each felt it was his best outing of the spring, and it came in his final outing before the Yankees begin to make fifth-starter decisions. Joba Chamberlain also pitched well in an intrasqaud game. “It seems like it gets muddled more every day,” Girardi said.
Andy Pettitte has his usual rotation spot locked up, but his spring has been anything but ordinary. Pettitte was one of six Yankees pitchers to pitch in yesterday’s loosely structured intrasquad game. The notebook also has items on Jamie Hoffmann’s return to Los Angeles, four players being sent to minor league camp, A.J. Burnett’s shaky beginning in Clearwater and Alex Rodriguez’s scheduled meeting with federal investigators.
“It seems like it gets muddled more every day,” Girardi said.
Just flip a coin.
Like Ralph said to Norton when they flipped the coin for the TV set, “Heads I win, tails you lose”
“It seems like it gets muddled more every day,” Girardi said.
Sounds like the old song from BTO
“I keep taking care of buisness.
I keep taking care of buisness.
It just keeps getting tougher every day.”
The fact that the decision isn’t clear cut is great news. I think Phil will be the 5th starter but Joba has shown signs of righting the ship which is the ideal scenerio.
Both these guys pitching well is very bad news for the AL because the rest of the team is so good that great years by Joba and Hughes would just be a giant cherry on top of an already good looking sundae.
Did my last post get blocked? odd..
Just read a rumor that Gaudin was (or is going to be) waived.
2010 Yankees :
CC
AJ
AP
JV
PH
Mo
JC
Marte
D-Rob
Aceves
Park
Mitre
Jeter
NJ
Tex
A-Rod
Cano
Posada
Grandy
Swish
GGBG
Winn
Thames
Cervelli
Pena
Looks strong. Takes care of buisness !
Patrick
March 23rd, 2010 at 9:02 am
Just read a rumor that Gaudin was (or is going to be) waived.
**************************
I saw something about that too.
Why would they waive Gaudin when they could trade him ?
Michael Kay made a good point yesterday, he said that Chamberlain has never approached his old velocities after his shoulder injury in 2008. I wonder if he’s holding back now to prevent an injury, or structurally his arm isn’t the same anymore?
Honestly, Chamberlain is too valuable to stay in the bullpen, and if other clubs see him that way too, he should start the season in the rotation and be traded for quality prospects if he’s never going to be a regular starter for the yankees.
“Just read a rumor that Gaudin was (or is going to be) waived.”
Looks like it. Sounds like he could end up sent to AAA, but it’s tough to imagine the Yankees paying close to $3M to do it, especially in light of the fact they’re paying Igawa $4M to do the same. He could be released for a little less than $800K.
MTU,
My 2010 Yankees roster is the same as you posted.
They ought to be able to make a deal with someone for gaudin.
He should be able to bring something back.
“Why would they waive Gaudin when they could trade him ?”
One reason might be that nobody is interested in paying him close to $3M. That nobody may well include the Yankees, who can get off the hook for around $800K by letting him go.
Fran-
Then you’re mighty lucky because that is one Kick A-s team !
Frank if they waive him, they pay a portion of his salary and he then becomes a FA.
He has no options left so they can’t send him to AAA unless he is DFA and accepts the assignment.
Frank-
Don’t you think Gaudin is a serviceable back end guy ?
What if the Yanks kicked in the 800K they would lose as part of a trade .
Wouldn’t someone be interested then ?
This has been a very good spring for Phil and Joba and both kids seem to thrive on their competitive friendship – a good sign. I read Phil’s quotes yesterday – he wants to be a starter badly and he’s not even pretending to hide it. If he doesn’t get it, he’ll suck it up and do his job without complaints but it’s going to sting. It’s very easy to say that the team can put a player wherever they want to and the player just has to take it, but Phil’s career has been a study in frustration. I’m sure he thought by now he’d be settled in as a good starter by this point – damn injuries. Every pitcher wants to be a starter and if you have a great arm, you want to be a great starter – at the least, you want that chance. I venture to say Joba feels the same way. I hate to be Joe when he tells the loser he’s going to the pen. It might only be for one more year, but for the loser, it’s going to feel like an eternity.
They most likely shopped Gaudin and didn’t find a deal to their liking. That’s if he was waived.
There is no reason to trade Joba. His “value” is helping the Yankees win games and not obtaining prospects nobody has any idea can make it.
Betsy-
“It might only be for one more year”
And it might not ?
Who knows ?
I think they will try there best to trade either Mitre or Gaudin before the end of ST but if unsuccessful they will probably cut Gaudin loose and save themselves a couple million. Mitre is pitching better and is cheaper.
Patrick:
That was my take on it as well. I mentioned AAA on the off chance that A) the Yankees would want to keep him in AAA in case of emergency and B) Gaudin agrees to it because is gets him $2.8M this year rather than something considerably less. I doubt it happens. I think he clears waivers and becomes an FA.
SJ44,
There is reason to trade Joba if the Yankees decide that his ceiling is as a reliever.
They know that relievers are easy to come by so perhaps they decide to trade him and get what they can now before the rest of baseball comes to the same conclusion. Or trade him to a team that overvalues relievers.
I’m not saying it’s the right decision but I see the logic. Personally, I think he can be a starter and will be one in 2011 regardless of this spring’s competition.
I find it pretty strange that no one would be interested in Gaudin.
He is young.
He is versatile.
He isn’t that expensive.
He is a capable back ender especially NL.
I guess his value is really that low ?
Both Phil and Joba have said they’d rather pitch in the ‘pen in the bigs than start in AAA. Both will be fine with whatever decision Joe makes, even if it’s not their ideal choice.
The Yankees don’t like adding money to deals.
For fringe guys like Gaudin, it’s an especially bad precedent to set since he’s not bringing back a top player/prospect in return.
Their belief is, they put enough money into the revenue sharing pool. They aren’t interested in adding money to their deals.
It’s one reason why they insisted on money coming back to them in the Hinske deal, since the Pirates pull a ton of money out of the pool each year.
Frank,
I’m pretty sure if the Yankees waive him they have to pay 25% of his salary and that’s it. No minors.
MTU,
It really is a strong team. Good enough to repeat as World Champions
This is speculation on my part but reading the quotes from Phil and Joba I think Joba would handle going to the pen better than Hughes would at this point. I think either will suck it up and go but it sounds like Phil has in his mind that he is starting and anything else would be a let down. Joba seems more open to the idea just by quotes to me.
Fran-
Piece of pie.
Patrick,
Most scouts and teams in baseball view Joba more as a future closer than #1 starter.
Therein lies the rub about trading him.
Yankee fans, at least some, see him as a future ace.
That is not the dominant opinion of people in the game.
At least not as this time.
MTU:
Gaudin has been in the bigs since 2003. His next major team will be his EIGHTH. Over his career he’s put 14 guys on base per 9 innings. He’s a dime dozen guy to me and the definition of unfulfilled potential. I don’t envision anyone being willing to offer much of anything worth having for him.
Blake, I don’t agree. Phil wants to start, but he would never let his disappointment show – that’s just not him. He liked setting up last year; he wants to start, but he thrived in his new role because he had an open mind. I can’t speak for how Joba would react.
“Therein lies the rub about trading him. ”
I also mentioned that some teams over value relievers. The Yankees are not one of those teams. Thus, finding the right team could mean a good trade for the Yanks.
I believe the Yankees view Joba as a starter long-term. However, if that view were to change and they see him as a reliever forever, the smart move would be to find the best trade they can get and make it.
Mitre is pitching better in ST – that means nothing. I really hope the Yanks cut ties with Mitre.
Frank,
Exactly. He’s the definition of a fringe guy.
Regardless of age, they don’t have a lot of value on the trade market. Especially at 2.9 million in today’s baseball economy.
Betsy,
I didn’t say he would let it show. I think he would do a great job again in the set up role, I just don’t think privately he would like it much.
Take a look at Hughes’ last three starts from last year. I think he can do the job!!
Frank-
That’s not what I saw last year but that’s cool.
I asked for your opinion and I guess I got it !
I think the scouts are jumping the gun on Joba; I don’t have a great deal of faith in them. They’ll give young pitchers on other teams all the time in the world to develop, but Phil and Joba? They haven’t won any Cy Youngs yet, so they are either overrated bums or career relievers.
Patrick:
I could be wrong. I read someone who said that upon clearing waivers, the Yankees could waive him at 1/4 of his contract or send him to the minors and pay it in full. But I think Gaudin would have to agree to the go to the minors. Releasing him would seem to be the far more likely scenario.
Blake, you said you thought Joba would handle it better- and I still disagree with you. I never said you said that Phil wouldn’t do a great job.
The smart move is to keep a 24 year old pitcher with his upside who helped you win a World Series last year.
Especially when you have a 40 year old closer and two free agent to be starting pitchers.
It makes no sense trading him when you have internal needs he can fill.
This is what I would do. Move Gaudin to another team.. Joba and Ace go to the bullpen. Mitre wins the 5th spot because hes earned it and Hughes goes done to AAA to be a starter. This way you can keep Hughes’s innings done early in the year and it allows him to develope and be a viable option to help the rotation later on in the year.
Maybe that’s correct Frank. I don’t really know, tbqh
Jobs has no issue going to the bullpen. He’s told the team that in the off-season.
Everybody would prefer to start. However, Joba isn’t as fixated on it as the fans are.
Pitch well, in whatever role you have, and you have options.
He has the right attitude, however it shakes out.
Wasting major league pitchers in AAA, which Hughes and Chamberlain are, doesn’t help their development and hurts the parent club.
In this instance, two wrongs don’t make a right.
JohnC
March 23rd, 2010 at 8:56 am
Like Ralph said to Norton when they flipped the coin for the TV set, “Heads I win, tails you lose”
===
Classic
.
Greatest show ever.
No one is saying Joba has an issue going to the pen. I don’t think Phil does either. I was just saying that both of them want to start and it’s not going to be an enviable task to have to tell one of them that it’s not going to happen. I find it hard to believe that the “loser” isn’t going to experience ANY sense of disappointment. Not having an issue with something is different than not being disappointed.
Bohdi-
Good to see you man !
Hughes and Chamberlain are beyond their “development” stage. They’re major-league tested and ready at this point. There is, obviously, room for improvement in both of their games, but that will happen at the major league level.
Examples of people who have recently improved at the major league level: Zach Greinke, Justin Verlander, insert tons of names here, etc.
I may be wrong about Greinke, I don’t know if they demoted him in 2006, but if they did that could be more for his mental condition than his pitching.
“It makes no sense trading him when you have internal needs he can fill.”
Other guys can fill the 8th inning role. It’s not that difficult a role to be quite honest. Fans overrate relievers all the time, this is just another instance of that.
If Joba is destined to be in the bullpen for the rest of his career, the smart move is absolutely to trade him now.
Phil will be the 5th starter.
Joba to the pen to setup Mo.
Ace will be the long man.
Mitre is the #6 starter out of the pen unless they want two lefties.
Goudan will be cut today.
MTU (aka GBURL)
March 23rd, 2010 at 9:41 am
Bohdi-
Good to see you man !
===
Hey, bud. Meant to say ‘thanks’ again for those pics.
Showed ‘em to my mom (having surgery Friday) and it was very relaxing for her to look at them and marvel.
I see others got to take a look from the board. That’s awesome.
I won’t be around much – just lurking. I have nothing else to say about Joba/Hughes. Both should be starters and both should be groomed with an eye to future rotations.
Got a friend in from town this week who’s dad is having surgery today for an aneuryism, so my plate’s full. I’ll be watching the games, though, and reading through when I can.
Baseball is definitely in the very air!
.
No it isn’t Patrick. Not with a 40 year old closer.
I think fans underrate rather than overrate relievers. The stat crowd likes to say “anybody” can setup or relieve. Really?
Did you see the Yankee bullpen last year prior to Hughes becoming the setup guy? It was a mess.
Tampa lost 13 games from the 7th inning on last year. Try telling them “anybody can do it”. That cost them a playoff spot last year.
It’s a moot point since they aren’t trading him.
However, don’t fall into the trap anybody can pitch out of the bullpen.
We see every year around baseball how that isn’t the case.
The best thing for the Yankees short and long term is for both Hughes and Joba to be starting pitchers that year.
Now, that does not mean that both should be in the rotation at the beginning of the year. It means the loser of the 5th starter competition should stay stretched out throughout the season. Starts will be there to make for the 6th starter and those starts should be coming from Joba/Hughes. Whether that means starting in AAA or just creatively staying stretched out in the bullpen from the start, I do not know.
Those spot starts one of those guys make and potentially taking a permanent spot in the rotation in case of a serious injury will help the Yankees more than the marginal increase between Joba/Hughes pitching the 8th as compared to Robertson/Park/Marte.
Long term knowing what you can expect out of both these guys as Starting Pitchers in 2011 will be of great benefit to the Yankees given the uncertainty of the rotation following this year. A full season in the bullpen from either of these guys and you will have no clue what you are getting out of them as starting pitchers in 2011 when there will be some very tough decisions to make regarding the rotation.
Keep it:
Greinke did go down to the minors for about a half a season worth of starts after getting medical help for the 1st couple months of the ’06 season, before coming up for good the last week of that season. He also pitched out of the pen for most of ’07, before the Royals began to stretch him out in late August.
Bohdi-
Hope all turns out well with your Mother. Glad the pics had that effect on her.
Sucked a few others into viewing them.
JC/PH – without a doubt.
Best of luck with your friend as well. Sounds like “General Hospital” around there. Things will swing around for the good.
“Did you see the Yankee bullpen last year prior to Hughes becoming the setup guy? It was a mess.”
——————————
It was a mess yet the Yankees were sitting tied for first place the day Hughes went to the bullpen despite missing a month of A-Rod and a terrible start from Tex.
They then went on to decisively win the AL East and very little of that had to do with Phil Hughes. His contribution to the team winning the division and making the playoffs as the 8th inning guy was minimal at best.
The mess of the bullpen also had a lot to do with ineffectiveness and inconsistency of the starting pitching.
The Yankees would be in a much better position today and much more prepared to make this decision if Phil Hughes was in the rotation last year when Wang went down instead of in the bullpen.
Yeah Frank I just noticed that. 52 appearances but only 14 starts. I guess the Royals taking the anxiety seriously paid off for Zack.
The Yankees are very lucky to have a surplus of pitchers to choose from. I would like to see both our young guys get a chance to start, but, barring injuries, that wont happen this year. I am sure who ever “loses” will make a major contribution, where ever they end up.
Good pitchers are always in demand. Why trade one, unless it’s for quite a package of proven players? Understand, anyone is tradeable (excluding Jeter, Mo, Alex, but let’s be realistic), but, why deal good, young pitching? Especially with your own future needs staring you in the face (ie, Andy, Vazquez’ situations).
Phil’s contribution was minimal last year? That’s quite a statement.
Thank you, MTU. I will take the good wishes.
Always err on the side of pitching.
If management sees him as the air apparent to Mo and not a SP, why would they trade Joba, that doesn’t make any sense? Who trades 24 year olds with arms like that making peanuts still under control for the next several years? Neither does sending him or Hughes to AAA, neither will happen in a million years.
“Phil’s contribution was minimal last year? That’s quite a statement.”
Exactly. Someone owes me a new keyboard because I spit my coffee all over it. Reading that post.
The mess of the bullpen also had to do with Edwar Ramirez, Jonathan Albaladejo, Bruney’s inconsistency, Jose Veras being the definition of inconsistent, and Damaso Marte refusing to retire a lefty OR a righty. The bullpen was a mess for reasons far beyond the starting pitching.
Billy, fortunately I finished drinking my water before I read the post.
Are all the hosts on WFAN horsebleep? Joe and Evan think the Yankees ruined Joba and if he doesn’t get the #5 spot, it means they’ve totally given up on him as a starter. Please – it’s like he’s competing against garbage. Losing the #5 spot to Phil is not an insult…..and the Yankees did not “ruin” Joba.
ed_price Source: #Yankees have put RHP Gaudin on waivers. Once he clears, Yanks can send to AAA & pay entire $2.95M or release & pay 1/4 of total.
They then went on to decisively win the AL East and very little of that had to do with Phil Hughes. His contribution to the team winning the division and making the playoffs as the 8th inning guy was minimal at best.
==============================
This is a joke? Right?
I think the Yankees made absolutely the wrong decision. They are getting swayed by Mitre having a good spring. Mitre is not a good pitcher and he’s going to be nothing but a garbage time reliever for us. Gaudin was like another Aceves – not as good, but still a nice arm to have. So they just made a decision based on finances and not what player makes the team better………bad move.
new thread
Gaudin on waivers
The Yankees scouts/management sees something they like in Mitre and/or something they don’t like in Gaudin. They are paid a lot of money to make decisions like this and obviously know much more than everyone on this blog combined.
Maybe Mitre actually has his sinkerball working again and can be effective? Or, he could completely fail like Wang did. We’ll see what their plan is for him when the season comes around.
Betsy,
I don’t think the Yanks have made their final move with Gaudin.
I doubt any team is going to pick him up at that price. Once he clears, then they will make the move. Either keep him albeit that’s a nice chunk of $$$ for a Scranton starter/insurance policy or dump him and save 2 mil+.
If they had put Sergio on waivers, some team would have grabbed him as his salary is only 850,000$.
And Serge has pitched very well this Spring.
The bullpen is a critical element that separates teams. Joba(or Phil)are needed in the bullpen. I remember early last year all too well when I never felt any lead was safe before the ninth inning.
Joba has expressed a willingness to return to the pen. That makes the most sense. Is our old friend Pete still berating people who think Joba is better as a reliever?
Hey Bod, prayers for your mom but I know she will do fine. I mean that.
I love Mitre. Happy to have him if he ends up staying. We don’t get to have do-overs in life, but if there could be any do-over, for me it would be for both Phil and Joba to have been given the time they really needed in AAA. Nobody’s fault, the way things sifted out when the Yankees were down pitchers and out of choices. But it definitely did impact both of their development, IMO.
This is a great thread here at LoHud, I’ve been following for a long time.
I don’t know what’s up with Girardi & Co., they want to turn Joba & Hughes into Mike Mussina and Andy Pettitte only it’s about 12 years and 250 wins apiece too early. Hughes can’t throw his changeup effectively if his fastball is low-90s and his curve becomes ineffective as well. Same goes for Joba and his slider.
Regarding Mitre, he’s Girardi’s boy so any move on management’s part to loose him from Joe G’s depth chart is a direct reflection of what they think of Joe G’s master plan. That’s a great reality show in the making.