Rodriguez heating up
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Mar 26, 2010 
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Alex Rodriguez isn’t expected to be in Yankees camp today, and he might not be there tomorrow. Distractions aside, though, the Yankees third baseman seems ready for Opening Day.
“You’re going to start getting at-bats against guys that you are going to be facing over the next six months,” he said last week after his first spring home run. “It’s time to get sharp.”
That home run last Friday was part of a 2-for-3 day, the first of three straight 2-for-3 games that Rodriguez had against the Tigers, Astros and Nationals. He took an 0-for-2 yesterday — the Yankees as a whole had just five hits — and his spring average still stands at .333 with a .600 slugging percentage. The Yankees spring leaders in home runs are the two guys hitting ahead of Rodriguez, Nick Johnson and Mark Teixeira, who had three each. Teixeira is batting .333 with a .611 slugging.
“It’s nice to have them both at the beginning of the season,” Joe Girardi has said. “It just makes our lineup a lot more complete.”
Alex will be fine on the field as the Yankees repeat. Let’s just hope he doesn’t lie to any officials off the field. That would be disasterous.
hoping we dont see the annual tex and cc april/may struggles. for once it would be nice to not play catch up in the second half of the year.
If he tells the truth, he’s got nothing to worry about. The guy seems very relaxed; people who are afraid of something coming out about them usually are not relaxed, they are waiting for the other shoe to drop. I can’t wait until this stuff is over, to be honest. Alex is set for a monstrous year.
Just saw this on Twitter, I always enjoy browsing over stuff like this. Thanks a lot.
I was wondering though how long have you been a {blogger/writer}?
If the Eagles trade McNabb, they will become a lot classier, and a lot less dislikable (as a Giants fan).
I think Alex is going to have a huge year.
Agreed, Erin. Alex is going to tear the cover off the baseball!!!!!!!!!!
We didn’t play xath up in rh second half last year.
All of the discussion about the pitching staff made me curious about how this year’s staff compares to last year. Looking at it, I realized there was even more roster turnover than I realized–12 players who pitched in a major league game for the Yankees last year are no longer with the team. The Yankees were 3rd in the AL in ERA last year, at 4.28. The dozen guys no longer on the team pitched about 300 innings with a 5.6 ERA, while the remainder of the staff pitched about 1,150 innings with a 3.94 ERA. Obviously there is no guarantee these guys will repeat their performance or that inferior minor league players won’t be needed. However, adding Vasquez & Park to last year’s core has the 2010 staff positioned to be one of the league’s best.
Also, the Yankees led the AL in strikeouts with 1,260. BOS was second with 1,230, the Jays were third with 1,181, the Royals were fourth with 1,153. I found that very interesting and think it says a lot about the division (the Rays were 5th) and the Yankees’ potential after adding Vasquez to the rotation.
where’s arod hitting the ball? going to the opposite field means VERY good things for him
Ledger_Yankees Apparently, mapquest directions to this place included “turn off the paved road.”
14 minutes ago via TweetDeck
Vazquez will definitely up the Strikeout total. He’s a strikeout artist.
Just a few thoughts from the earlier posts and other stuff:
1. How much do you think the Yankee coaches and Cashman wish that Bill Madden had gone on this paintball trip? Man, the chance to riddle Madden with paintballs must be appealing.
2. Great article on Chris Garcia. I’ve been a big fan of his for years; I can never just close the book on him and write him off as a guy who will never make it because of injuries.
Consider that he’s got better pure stuff than almost any other pitcher in the Yankee organization and if he ever was able to stay healthy long enough to refine it…my goodness. Plus, though he’s been around seemingly forever, he’s still very young.
In the back of my mind I’ve always thought that when all is said and done it will be Garcia and not Joba who will replace Mo as the closer.
3. Speaking of Mo, just throwing out a scenario based on something I read on MLB Trade Rumors this morning. How about the Yankees give Mo a 1 year $15 mil deal and then if he walks away after the 2011 season they go after Jonathan Broxton to replace him? (as I said, it’s in the back of my mind that Garcia will take that job, but Garcia first has to show he can stay healthy for an entire season)
4. Looks like Girardi and Cashman are going to give Thames every opportunity to show what he can do against LHP – but if in these final games he’s not able to produce would there be some interest in going after Jake Fox (currently with the A’s) to fill the need of RH bat off the bench? He’s out of options, doesn’t really have a spot and can do a few more things defensively than Thames and has shown that he’s got a fairly good bat.
I’m not saying he’s a late blooming all-star; but if Thames can’t hit then they aren’t really losing anything.
The alternative is that a kid like Winfree takes his spot – though I think Winfree would benefit by playing everyday in AAA.
So Sherman is saying that Arod will tell the Feds that he received that platelet therapy from Galea.
Which is OK for Arod but not for Galea if it was performed in the US.
But why does Arod need to fly all the way to Buffalo to do this?
The current regime has made numerous mistakes in regard to their young starters (Wang, Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy). They have also not yet developed a SP that has had sustained success.
If some people have complete faith in them, that is obviously their choice and I have no problem with that. However, I think they are many reasons to question this group and potentially even have doubt in them.
“I can never just close the book on him and write him off as a guy who will never make it because of injuries.”
I hear you. I think that is the overwhelming feeling about him. Including from the Yankees. If he wasn’t as talented, they wouldn’t protect him. See Humberto Sanchez.
It’s funny how many, myself included, see a guy who is injury prone, have a place in the pen. Though as a late inning power reliever, his stuff would be great.
“If the Eagles trade McNabb, they will become a lot classier, and a lot less dislikable (as a Giants fan).”
What!? McNabb is pure class, and their best player by far. I’m not saying its the wrong move to trade him but how is getting rid of their classiest player going to make them a classier team? Get a grip
That’s because they can go out and buy good starting pitchers. Don’t always need to develop aces.
LGY -
The Yankees completely botched the handling of Joba, no question.
But Wang and Hughes? Not so sure about that. Wang was very successful and then injuries derailed him. As for Hughes, again it was injuries not mishandling that have kept him from putting together sustained success.
Kennedy, well Kennedy is a National League pitcher without the arsenal to deal effectively with AL East bats.
“If the Eagles trade McNabb, they will become a lot classier, and a lot less dislikable (as a Giants fan).”
No way. As long as the Eagles have those fans, they will never be classy. Eagle fans are the worst in all of sports
tk
that includes CMW’s stats, correct? the Yankees should be much better this year, even w/o Swish’s 0.00 ERA
The AL east is tough, 4 of the top 5 teams in Ks, altho the Jay’s will be down this year w/o Halladay.
As the author mentions a couple of times, he’s looking at small sample sizes here, so it’s hard to come to a solid conclusion. But it’s still an interesting article on where Gardner hits the ball (pre and post injury last yr and also 2008).
http://riveraveblues.com/2010/.....ury-25731/
4. Looks like Girardi and Cashman are going to give Thames every opportunity to show what he can do against LHP – but if in these final games he’s not able to produce would there be some interest in going after Jake Fox (currently with the A’s) to fill the need of RH bat off the bench? He’s out of options, doesn’t really have a spot and can do a few more things defensively than Thames and has shown that he’s got a fairly good bat.
I’m not saying he’s a late blooming all-star; but if Thames can’t hit then they aren’t really losing anything.
The alternative is that a kid like Winfree takes his spot – though I think Winfree would benefit by playing everyday in AAA.
****************
Jermain Dye, Come On Down!!!
It’s funny how many, myself included, see a guy who is injury prone, have a place in the pen. Though as a late inning power reliever, his stuff would be great.
WB,
I think that Garcia could, right now, be an effective late inning relief pitcher with the Yankees based on his stuff. Where I think the injuries might have stunted him is in the area of stamina.
Hey Betsy,
I totally agree with your post at 10:10 about Alex. See, we agree on some things
Chip,
Has to be the case. It would be tough to get him enough innings to build him into a starter.
I’d say both short and long term, he should try to find a spot in relief.
Philly fans are not the worst in sports!!
Did not mean to offend anyone, but McNabb is the definition of showboating, lack of respect shown to opponents, classless behavior!!
CR9,
You are a moron, McNabb is one of the classiest players in the league.
Well, Patrick, I did not see any reason for attacks to be made.
Is it possible to agree to disagree, without resorting to insults?
Braves just named Jason Heyward their starting right fielder. Must be cool for the kid. Drafted out of high school in GA and playing for the hometown team. Good for him.
Guess that locks Melky into the good end of a platoon situation in LF.
“that includes CMW’s stats, correct?”
Yeah, about half of those 300 innings came from Wang, Albie, Veras, Edwar, and Tomko–they combined for a 6.72 ERA in just under 150 IP. Like I mentioned, the staff as a whole posted a 4.28 ERA, excluding Wang their ERA would be 4.12…pretty drastic change considering he only pitched 42 out of like 1,450 innings.
CR9
I said Eagle fans, not Philly fans in general. If you knew some of the horror stories about what Philly fans have done to opposing fans coming to their games, you’d have a heart attack.
“So Sherman is saying that Arod will tell the Feds that he received that platelet therapy from Galea.
Which is OK for Arod but not for Galea if it was performed in the US.
But why does Arod need to fly all the way to Buffalo to do this?”
1) Because they are the Imperial Federal Prosecutors and you do what they say when they say so or you will feel their wrath;
2) The AUSA and investigators with knowledge of the case and all the other evidence are likely in Buffalo;
3) Becaue A-Rod and his folks want to be seen as “good citizens” and not inconvenience the Feds, although schedule jockeying may have been part of the long delay for this. interview
Meant Eagles fans. They have overturned people’s cars, set fire to opposing fans cars, threw things at the families and children of opposing players. Its bad.
I’m an Eagles fan. McNabb is not “classy” by any stretch of the imagination:
Do classy players pout on the bench after they have stunk it up in the 1st half and get replaced by a kid? (See the Raven disaster from last season)
Do classy players taunt the opposition by playing the air guitar before a playoff game?? A playoff game against the same team that whooped you the week before? (See the Wild Card disaster from this season)
You can say Philly doesn’t appreciate him and all of that, but this guy is a clown. He isn’t that smart at all (10 year vet and didn’t know the friggin overtime rules!) and I hope he is traded. I’d rather lose with Kolb (which we wouldn’t) then be teased year after year by making the playoffs and then choking in the end.
Fran, we agree on most things, lo.. However, if we want to have a more interesting dinner, let’s pretend we disagree a lot!
As a Bears fan, I remember McNabb going to Jay Cutler after a game in Chicago and clearly giving him a pep talk. I thought that was very classy – and I think well of him because of it.
Ledger_Yankees 4 confirmed kills, including the gm od the #nyy. 53 seconds ago
LOL
Morning all!
I wouldn’t bother worrying about anything in the Yankee universe since – you have no control over it anyway and you take minutes off your life when you stress out; the Yankees have been up, down, and all around and they still won the world series last year. If they make any mistakes, they know how to recitfy them.
I read through last night’s and today’s posts and especially want to ask Doreen about one of her comments regarding CSN before I throw away good money…
Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday. The sun came up (well in certain places since we had a little snow today) in spite of our worries and stresses. I think discussion and opinion is certainly a good and healthy thing. That’s what a forum is for. But to harbor great angst about Yankee baseball is frankly a waste of good energy. They know how to win. By the way, I learned that the hard way when I decided to remain plissed off for almost an entire season when David Wells was traded away and Roger Clemens came to the Yankees. I HATED the guy and everything about him – though I did grow to love him.
Lo and behold, the Yankees won the world series in spite of my great advice otherwise, and I am sure I made an entire forum miserable with my continual whining and blitching, not to mention my being miserable and ruining my own enjoyment of the season.
Anyway, I think the Girardi and Cashman combo combine for a very healthy way of running a club and sound decision making.
Okey dokey, carry on!
GO ST. MARY’S!!!
What!? McNabb is pure class, and their best player by far. I’m not saying its the wrong move to trade him but how is getting rid of their classiest player going to make them a classier team? Get a grip
___
Agreed. McNabb is the best chance that team has to win the way it is now. Philly has always been tough on mcNabb even though he has brought more success to that city than anyone else.
At this point with A-Rod, i hope he knows it’s best to just tell the full truth, because otherwise, another Selena Roberts will try to make a name for herself digging into it until they find something.
Trisha-
If you are expecting to see CSN exactly as they were in 1969, you will be disappointed. They don’t have perfect harmonies and pitch anymore. They also don’t do anything on stage other than sing. Its a very mellow show.
If you love their music anyway, go for it
What’s the goal of paintball? If you hit someone, he’s dead? I would “kill” for a pic of Cash all splattered with paint….
And people say that Eagles fans are the worst.
Great objectivity, Ben.
I wished they had won that SB, then I would not dislike McNabb for his classlessness.
Instead, he was more interested in being noticed for being sick.
As you put it, “clown” is the best way to describe him.
If the Giants or Jets do not win the SB, I would love seeing Vick as their starting QB, lead them to a SB.
Really interested to see Tex have arod behind him this April… and a full year… that if Nick the Stick stays healthy that top 4 is just going to mash this year…
tex’s friend
I never spoke to the talent of McNabb, just his lack of class.
But, there’s a reason why the Eagles have never won. McNabb is a good QB, dont get me wrong, but he’ll never win the SB.
Not much conversation today. Lets see if I can start something. Choose from below
1) Which Yankee staff would you “shoot” first?
2) Where does the now full Yankee rotation rank against the AL East
3) Ernie and Bert
CR9,
Frank was right about you.
Erica -
1) Jeter, just for kicks and to see if I could get a non-robotic reaction out of him.
2) Tops.
3) Who cares?
ditmars1929
March 26th, 2010 at 11:51 am
Erica -
1) Jeter, just for kicks and to see if I could get a non-robotic reaction out of him.
2) Tops.
3) Who cares?
********************
1) I like how you are thinking
3) Incorrect answer. I care deeply!!
1) Which Yankee staff would you “shoot” first?
2) Where does the now full Yankee rotation rank against the AL East
3) Ernie and Bert
—————————————————————
1) Mike Harkey. He’s the biggest and easiest to shoot.
2) At the top. The front end might be slightly behind the Sox but the back end is way ahead.
3) Probably not gay but merely exploring an alternative lifestyle.
Erica -
1) Yeah, wouldn’t that be hysterical? I know Jeter has a sense of humor, but he’s always so guarded, so it’d be nice to surprise him with a paintball to see if laughs or not.
3) I know you care, but if I want to read about Sesame Street, I’ll go to their site or a parenting site, not a baseball site.
Seems like a lot of the blog regulars are out paint balling too!
Erica – always OPPC – Sesame Street Mafia and GTLU supporter
March 26th, 2010 at 11:49 am
Not much conversation today. Lets see if I can start something. Choose from below
1) Which Yankee staff would you “shoot” first?
2) Where does the now full Yankee rotation rank against the AL East
3) Ernie and Bert
**************************
I choose 3!!
Ditmars1929-
Thats just me being funny. I always joke that I get more of a reaction when I talk about Sesame Street than when I talk about baseball related topics.
For some reason no one here seems to value my baseball related opinions……
looks like wakefield may get at least one start with Dice-K out at least into late April.
Erin
March 26th, 2010 at 12:01 pm
I choose 3!!
************
Hahahaha- I had a feeling you world!
BryanHoch Took three bullets from Joe Girardi; shot Brian Cashman. about 1 minute ago
Erica – always OPPC – Sesame Street Mafia and GTLU supporter
March 26th, 2010 at 12:03 pm
Erin
March 26th, 2010 at 12:01 pm
I choose 3!!
************
Hahahaha- I had a feeling you world!
*************************
And how appropriate, “Dance Myself to Sleep” just came on my ipod
Ledger_Yankees Me, @BloggingBombers and @BryanHoch each registered confirmed Cash-kills. 4 minutes ago
know your #nyy beat writers. who got lit up at paintballing today? http://tweetphoto.com/15898295
12 minutes ago
Cr9
I’m on attack mode because McNabb is my favorite player and it’s completely moronic to say he’s classless.
LoHudYankees Paintball lesson learned: A scouting director will shoot you in the back of the head, even if he’s your teammate. 2 minutes ago
Erica, did they sing mostly their old songs? I definitely wouldn’t want to go and listen to them sing songs that weren’t really familiar.
Do you know why Y isn’t with them?
Wahhh someone insulted my favorite player on the internet waaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I am also a HUGE McNabb fan. I agree that sometimes he seems to want the attention. Better than the Roethlisbergers of the world, or the Vicks.
I would take McNabb on my team in a heartbeat.
man we need some yankee things to talk about.
Management better be careful shooting at Cash… They’re jobs on are the line…
unless it was writers vs staff…
I have no idea.
“CR9,
Frank was right about you.”
Craw, I think you mean Patrick. I didn’t get involved as I find it best not to argue with CR9 when he goes to crackpot mode.
Sorry if those links don’t work-here’s the first
http://tweetphoto.com/15900877
“The current regime has made numerous mistakes in regard to their young starters (Wang, Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy). They have also not yet developed a SP that has had sustained success.”
When all else fails, try, try again….
As always, you make statements lacking context.
Hughes is still VERY young in terms of being a major league starting pitcher.
Chamberlain is both young and relatively inexperienced as a professional baseball player, much less a ML one.
Kennedy – who’s ceiling has never been regarded as that high – has (in part) been turned into Granderson, which addresses a need at a relatively inexpensive price.
The stories on those players and what they turn into is still in the very early chapters. Given all three (and 4 if you count way) have all dealt with injuries, to suggest they won’t “develop” is simply pre-mature.
“If some people have complete faith in them, that is obviously their choice and I have no problem with that.”
I don’t think it’s a matter of complete faith, I think it’s a matter of perspective. Some of us understand it’s way too early to draw conclusions.
“However, I think they are many reasons to question this group and potentially even have doubt in them.”
Questions are good, conclusions as this stage are irresponsible
Here’s the full tweet from Feinsand:
I survived 3 of the 5 paintball games. This was the shot I took in the leg from about 15 feet thanks to Kevin Long
Wow, Cash got it good from all sides. Chad a victim of friendly fire? I see Girardi is not quite as mild as he appeares, lol.
Ledger_Yankees Felt kinda bad wearing camo pants until Cashman pulled a camo cap over his head. On the front, a skull and crossbones. Dude’s competitive. about 1 minute ago
Gang, I’m telling you this because you’re my friends, truly I hope, and I don’t know who else to tell at this moment.
I just got word that my former boss died. She’s the person I was working for when I walked out. She was 52. I have to believe that the stress of the job is what did her in. They said she was having trouble breathing, went to the hospital for tests, everything was fine and she emailed work this morning that she expected to be in Monday – and the next thing they found out she had died.
RIP Ivy
Just take care in what you really let get to you. Yankee baseball is our passion, but really take it in stride.
And be kind to one another.
Trisha
I swear, you don’t mess around with the Cash. He’s small and bookish looking, but he takes no prisoners (either with the Daily Spews or the other beat writers).
That’s pretty inappropriate for a blog, I think.
Trish, my condolences to your friend/boss. 52 is way too young. Job stress? What did she do for a living?
Betsy, take note. I worry about you worrying about everything.
Stuckey,
especially since the results, which are all that matters in the end, hasn’t hurt the franchise.
This fixation on the subject mystifies me.
Every team in baseball struggles developing pitching from within. Nobody has cornered the market on it.
Yet, the Yankees are still the gold standard in terms of team success in the sport.
As you correctly point out, the book has not closed on either Hughes’ or Chamberlain’s career.
It’s WAY too early to draw developmental conclusions on either guy yet.
Wow, Trish – I’m so sorry, and she was so young, too. I just found out this morning that my co-worker’s father is having triple bypass surgery. Yesterday I found out that one of the atty’s I work with, her mother had a mini-stroke. She’s going to be ok, but still…….and I’m really hurt for my friend, who’s dad is in surgery. This kind of stuff really puts things in perspective…
Also I don’t think there was anything wrong with Ian Kennedy’s performance path. He was a ready-to-go college starter. He tore up the minors and made a september debut that was very nice. He was deemed ready to take over and it didn’t work out, so he got sent back down.
Nothing wrong with that. College guys should move fast. Hughes has been developed fine, his problem is injuries, and now he is the 5th starter! I’d say thats working out.
Chamberlain also a college starter who tore up the minors, his issue was 1 big injury and a lot of conditioning concerns, none of that was going to be ‘developed’
Gotta play the cards dealt, the yankees have done just that. Guys like Bleich, Zmac, Nova, WDR, are getting their time in the minors.
Other guys like McCutchen have been used to get some valuable pieces
Betsy, here’s your Cashman picture:
http://tweetphoto.com/15902134
Trisha, I’m so sorry. That’s awful.
Jerkface do you think joba should be in the pen or AAA?
Ditmars, I know – I get aggravated at relatively small things way too easily. I’m not sure what I can do relax as I’m wound pretty tight, but I’d like to just be able to let things roll off my shoulders. I guess it’s just a matter of making the effort.
Let’s not go the way of other boards who have accused the Yankees of ruining Joba and Phil. Both have had great success in the majors at very young ages – I’d say that says something for the Yankees and for both pitchers. I would venture to guess if you reviewed the case history of HOF pitchers, they have some not-so-pretty games on their record when they were kids.
Erin, lol – thanks!
Jerkface, very good points.
I think he should be in the minors , because they aren’t going to use him efficiently out of the pen. Just based on 2008 he probably isn’t one of the 12 best arms. Let him work in AAA to prove he is back.
Pitching out of the pen will only be acceptable if they allow him to compete for a start role next season and make him the 6th starter this year. They are pretty much pissing away his control years on this bullpen stuff.
2008 made sense, he has an innings limit, he was really good in 2007, put him in the BP to start then stretch him out. Unfortunately INJURY!
Now its just asinine because they will stick him in the BP but forget about the transition back to starter part.
I like Hughes more than Joba though, so I’m not terribly upset by it all. Joba is on the top of my trade bait list now.
“Questions are good, conclusions as this stage are irresponsible”
————————-
stuckey,
I do not really know why you wrote that whole post about me drawing conclusions, when I did not draw any conclusions. Having questions and having doubts is not a conclusion.
How can anyone with even a thimble’s worth of baseball knowledge can say the Yankees “ruined” either guy?
Both have contributed to a World Series title prior to their 25th birthdays.
One is in the rotation and the other will hold down an important bullpen spot.
They are both healthy and are VERY early into their careers.
Talk of them being “ruined” is emotional fan babble lacking any perspective.
Especially since their conclusion doesn’t have an ounce if truth to it.
The problem with Kennedy and Hughes was that they both were put in the rotation at the the same time when neither them nor the team could handle playing such key roles. Individually their path was fine, but you always have to look at the context of the team.
Players are held down in the minors all the time even though they are “ready” for the big leagues. Being ready for the big leagues does not having to pitch in the big leagues.
Betsy, it’s called bourbon. Also known as Nectar of the Gods.
I meant based on 2009. Joba in 2009 is not one of our 12 best.
LGY – Hughes was ready for the rotation, stress fracture in his rib cage proved otherwise.
Their handling of Wang was a huge mistake. Randy can speak with better knowledge of his issues with the staff and the slider issue so I am not going to get into that.
But, last year they botched Wang’s recovery every step of the way. The gave him poor instructions for his offseason program. They were unable to identify in ST he was not right and was not ready to pitch. And then they rushed him back because they overreacted to a line drive that hit Joba.
trisha – OPPC member who sees, hears, and knows all. 28 is on its way!!!!!
March 26th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
Erica, did they sing mostly their old songs? I definitely wouldn’t want to go and listen to them sing songs that weren’t really familiar.
Do you know why Y isn’t with them?
***************
Mostly their old songs.
I don’t think Neil Young tours with them very often. I think he does mostly his own thing now
Erin March 26th, 2010 at 12:28 pm
Betsy, here’s your Cashman picture:
http://tweetphoto.com/15902134
______________________________________________________________
HAHA I cant stop laughing at Cash in this picture
“How can anyone with even a thimble’s worth of baseball knowledge can say the Yankees “ruined” either guy?”
————————
You tell me. Who said they ruined either guy?
“Both have contributed to a World Series title prior to their 25th birthdays.”
End doesn’t always justify the means. That’s not to say that either are ruined, but I don’t see where questioning their handling of Chamberlain over the years is especially outrageous.
Fact-based logical thought may be beyond the capabilities of some. Babble is easier.
SJ, that’s exactly what they have: a thimble’s worth of knowlege. For Phil, they think the Yanks ruined him because they changed his mechanics and he no longer is the stud they saw in AAA. I never saw him pitch, but they remember seeing a totally dominant, flame throwing pitcher with ridiculous command. They see Phil now as someone who throws 4-5 miles slower (maybe more) and who is not the same pitcher who was the #1 prospect in baseball. That is the general feeling about Phil.
As to Joba, they think the Yankees ruined him because of the mechanical change they made at the beginning of last year (something to do with Joba not driving properly with his legs) – that’s really what it comes down to.
If you are looking into the “context of the team”, the team has been the most successful franchise in the sport for 15 years.
Their lack of developing home grown pitchIng has not hurt them.
It also hadn’t been a failure. For a team like the Yankees, spinning off arms in trades to help the ML roster win plays a big role in their success.
They developed Jake Westbrook enough to trade him for David Justice. Without DJ, they don’t win the WS in 2000.
That’s also part of the overall evaluation equation.
LGY:
I agree with you on Wang. His rehab was poorly managed on a couple different levels.
Again,
I don’t think the Yankees mishandled anyone other than Joba.
Wang was very effective until he hurt himself running the bases – how could the Yankees have prevented that?
Hughes has had setbacks due to hamstring and back injuries
Kennedy just doesn’t have the stuff to compete in the AL East
None of that is on the Yankees – you can’t even really fault the Yankees for taking Kennedy instead of someone else (only two players picked between Kennedy and Joba have been successful in the majors – Chris Coghlan and Dan Bard)
Are their teams that have been luckier with developing pitchers – sure.
But beyond Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy the Yankees also developed starters in Dan McCutchen and Ohlendorf and a slew of good young relievers.
LGY, that’s not true about Phil in 2008. I thought they rushed him in 2007, but his early starts and then September/October (I don’t count August) showed that he was worthy of a spot. His whole 2008 before he came back shouldn’t even count against him as he was clearly injured. Remember, he did pitch that fantastic game in Toronto, dueling AJ pitch for pitch. IPK probably was rushed, I’ll grant you that.
Erin
March 26th, 2010 at 12:08 pm
And how appropriate, “Dance Myself to Sleep” just came on my ipod
**************
I LOVE that one. Boogie Woogie Sheep
“I do not really know why you wrote that whole post about me drawing conclusions, when I did not draw any conclusions. Having questions and having doubts is not a conclusion.”
Because YOU addressed those you anticipated as disagreeing with you as having “complete faith” (your words). Those strike me as the words of someone taking the extreme opposite direction (no faith, which is a conclusion)
If not, then no harm no foul. Glad to be mistaken.
But that still leaves the unanswered question as to what you expected from these players are the various stages of their careers, which makes you question their development so much?
Can we agree that the development of a early 20′s above average starting pitcher is in fact a very, very rare occurrence? What leads you to the conclusion say Hughes and Chamberlain should be farther along, or good as I imagine you think they should be by now?
One other thing to consider when Hughes and Kennedy were both in the rotation is that Posada was on the DL for a portion of it, and it was revolving door catcher. They both would have benefitted from having a veteran catcher guide them along.
Sorry to hear about your friend Trisha
love all the paint ball comments…reminds me of my son and his friends playing airsoft (pellet guns) in our woods.
“especially since the results, which are all that matters in the end, hasn’t hurt the franchise.”
——————————
It has affected results though. Their SP was largely a disaster until they signed CC last year. 2001-2008 had a huge deal to do with the lack of quality SP.
I should even amend my statement in this post. The current regime has made numerous mistakes in regard to their
youngstarters.Cashman and Co. have a very poor track record when it comes to pitching right now. I am not saying that will not change. I am not saying Hughes was not the right decision for the 5 spot. What I am saying is that I am not going to take every decision they make like Joba going to the bullpen as gospel. There are plenty of reasons to be suspect of their ability when it comes to pitching and SP in general.
CC Sabathia hitting the market was the best gift Cashman has ever gotten in his life. And the chances of guys like CC hitting the market has reduced more and more every year. Finally, if CC did not hit the market everyone on here would have a very different view of this front office.
LGY, basically the whole NYYFans board. I don’t think I’m going to post much there anymore – they’re just ridiculously over the top.
Ditmars, lol – if only I liked alchohol, lol.
Perhaps they changed their minds about Joba starting. Perhaps they feel, despite public proclaimations to the contrary, they feel he is best suited for the pen.
My point is, it’s too early to draw conclusions.
He didn’t pitch well enough to win the competition. He now has a chance to get it together coming out of the pen.
SJ,
I agree it is too early to draw conclusions on either of these guy. I am saying that when Cash says the best place for Joba this year is the pen I have my doubts.
If, Cashman even it is rare, had developed a successful young starter. Or if he had handled certain things better I would feel much more comfortable sitting back and saying, Cashman is right.
Until I see results from him in this department though his track record up to THIS point suggests to me that he may not be right.
“They developed Jake Westbrook enough to trade him for David Justice.”
Good point, ‘cept the Yankees didn’t develop Westbrook. He spent three months on their AAA squad after spending his formative years in the Rockies and Nats systems (2 years each).
I also think Hughes should have been put in the rotation last year. There is no point of arguing that though because there is no way to prove either decision was right.
*when Wang went down*
Betsy, you have a bit of a mythical perception of what people “thought” Hughes was. Baseball America always had his fastball velocity at 90-94. I saw him pitch in Trenton and that’s exactly where he was on the gun there too. He was never a “flamethrower” and anyone who knows him doesn’t expect him to go out there and toss 96 MPH bullets.
That being said whereas he was sitting 92-94 in the minors there have been times in the majors when he’s sat 88-90. That is still a significant difference and has at times raised eyebrows among the higher-ups.
GC, there were plenty of ‘reports’ of Hughes throwing 95-96. And misinformation online.
I do not think Hughes was “rushed.”
I just do not think he was ready to be the 4th starter on a team with so much pressure to win especially since the 5 starter was so inexperienced and was likely to take his lumps as well.
The one thing I like very much about the Yankees approach the past 2 years is integrating young guys by using the 5 spot in the rotation.
You don’t get extra wins for developing your own pitching. Until they change that rile, it’s a strawman argument.
GM’s keep their jobs based on wins and losses.
If you talk to people in baseball, they will tell you few, if any guys know pitching and how to find it and develop it better than Kevin Towers.
Yet, his track record with starters, results-wise, is spotty at best.
It’s very tough to develop pitching.
In the end, the results haven’t hurt the franchise as much as you believe it has.
Speaking of Hughes and Joba –
Did anyone read the editorial in the NY Post yesterday by the guy (I think his name is Botemps or something like that) saying that the Yankees missed the point when they put Hughes in the rotation?
His “plan” if you can call it that, would be to put Mitre or Ace in the rotation and line up the following way:
Park in the 6th
Hughes in the 7th
Joba in the 8th
Mo in the 9th
With the theory that if you can make a game only 5 innings long it will be of greater benefit to the team than having 5 starters.
I think we can all agree that it’s a darn good thing this guy is not making the decisions for the Yankees.
You do not get extra wins, but with the direction the game seems to be going it is almost imperative that you do.
And who knows if there is an international draft put in place with the next CBA or other changes that makes it even more difficult to acquire young aces.
I don’t understand why the onus is always put on the Yankees for developing these pitchers.
What about the pitchers? When is the onus ever put on them? They know how to play baseball. They have the best facilities and coaches.
If they choose not to listen or can’t break out, some of the blame should be on them. In fact, in my eyes, most of the blame should be on them.
Joba’s struggles aren’t from the Yankees not giving him a shot. They’ve given him a shot. They’ve told them what they see him doing that they think he needs to work on. If he can’t do that and prefers to wear blinders to his struggles, that’s on him.
As for Hughes, the Yankees gave him a shot last season to be relevant to this team and help them win a championship.
What’s wrong with that?
We should have forced him into a starting role results be damned while the team is pursuing a world championship? That’s prospect hugger talk.
Hughes earned his shot in the rotation this spring and if he goes out and is horrible in the role, he won’t last in it all season. They’re not going to just send him out there to take his lumps.
He needs to perform. He needs to pitch smart and deep into games and hold the other team down.
If he does all of that, he’ll be a rotation fixture and his development will be complete.
If he goes out and throws 100 pitches in 3 innings every start, he doesn’t deserve the role and should be sent back to the pen.
It’s up to Phil and Joba to develop into their potential and prove they are ready for the next step.
I’m not sure about that SJ. If you look at this team’s drafts from 1996-2003 it is almost flat out miraculous that they were as miserable as they were. It came back to bite us from 2004-2008 when we had to shell out exorbitant amounts of money on guys like Jaret Wright, Carl Pavano, and Randy Johnson. If the team had developed a single one more pitching prospect who they could have employed during those years those teams were still probably good enough to win at least another World Series.
And like you said, its not just about employing your own pitching prospects. When Cash wanted to trade for Johnson in 2004 when he would have probably been of a bit more use, he had nothing, absolutely nothing, to use, and was incapable of trading for an effective starter for a long time.
Did anyone read the editorial in the NY Post yesterday by the guy (I think his name is Botemps or something like that) saying that the Yankees missed the point when they put Hughes in the rotation?
His “plan” if you can call it that, would be to put Mitre or Ace in the rotation and line up the following way:
Park in the 6th
Hughes in the 7th
Joba in the 8th
Mo in the 9th
————————————————-
why not just have CC or AJ start each game and pitch one inning, have Andy, Ace, and Mitre for a couple on alternate days, Robertson for the 4th, throw in a couple of batters for Marte, and then do the above? I could see them winning almost every game for at least the 1st month before every pitcher broke down. Has the guy who wrote that ever actually seen or played a baseball game?
Here is my point on Joba……
Unlike Hughes, who most talent evaluators see as a starting pitcher, that isn’t the case with Joba.
Most talent evaluators see him best suited for the pen for reasons discussed ad nauseum on this blog.
The lack of certainty to his role is going to lead to how best to utilize his talents.
Which is why complaining about how he is used or believing the Yankees “ruined him”, rings hollow to me.
“With the theory that if you can make a game only 5 innings long it will be of greater benefit to the team than having 5 starters.”
Not only do articles like this assign mythical status to the bullpen, they make it sound as if one guy (Hughes in this instance) will completely change the bullpen. According to his POV the game will already be shortened by Joba, Mo, etc. So really it’s not elite bullpen or solid #5, it’s elite bullpen (without Hughes) and solid #5 or elite bullpen (with Hughes) and questionable #5. If his approach were really the best way to go, why not add CC, AJ, Javy, and Andy to the pen and make it a one inning game?
SJ -
You’re factually correct when you say that overall the “failings” with the Yankees in regard to pitching haven’t hurt the team that much over the long term. But, in fairness, that’s because the Yankees are in the unique position of being able to gloss over most of their mistakes.
The two times that come to mind where bad decisions by the Yankees about pitching have burned the club are the 2004 postseason and the 2008 season.
In 2004 the Yankees had to rely on Moose, Jon Leiber, a cooked El Duque, a shell of himself in Kevin Brown, and Javy Vazquez (who Torre didn’t trust at all) to go against the Sox and we all know the result.
In 2008 the Yankees decided to hand the final two spots in the rotation to Hughes and Kennedy without bringing in any sort of insurance for either of them and ended up having to turn to guys like Sidney Ponson and as a result, missed the playoffs.
But there have been other mistakes:
Trading Ted Lilly
Signing Carl Pavano, Kei Igawa, Jose Contreras (though in two of those three situations you can’t really blame the Yankees because teams were lining up for Pavano and Contreras)
Letting Andy walk
Signing Clemens the second time around
Randy Johnson
The slew of relievers who never worked – Karsay, Farnsworth, Quantrill, Hawkins, Myers, Villone
For almost any other team a mistake like that can haunt you for years (much like the illadvised signing of D-Lowe came back to bite the Braves)
But the Yankees are able to carry on because of their endless money pit.
“Their handling of Wang was a huge mistake.”
And this is the part where someone needs to point out to you that this is a entirely separate issue. I’m not going to get into the Wang thing into too much detail now (the prospective argument with Randy is too enticing to pass up), but how the Yankees medical staff handled an injury to the pitcher is no less serious, but NOT the same thing.
I’d remind you the Yankees organization in fact DID “develop” Wang into a very successful ML starter, despite HIS injury history.
You got two different arguments that in fact sort of counter one another you’re trying to argue as one.
You need to start over in that regards…
GC, it’s not my perception as I’ve never seen him, it’s those on that board.
People need to get used to the fact that Phil takes a while to reach his best velocity. I don’t expect him to hit 92-94 until maybe May or June, but he doesn’t even need to throw that hard to succeed. You can’t count when the guy was coming back from injury….at least, I can’t. As long as he’s getting people out, I don’t even see that it matters. One guy on that board, by the way, was complaining because Phil was throwing 89-90 in a ST game and a Tampa kid pitcher was throwing 93-94, like it didn’t matter that they are different people.
Chip,
I did not see that article but some of the sports talk radio hosts on WFAN were suggesting the same thing to shorten the game to 6 innings.
Thanks all. Ditmars she was vice president for administration and finance at a local college. I was in charge of their civil rights office when I was there. We had a change in administration and the president under whom I worked retired and a tyrant replaced him. Her expectations were that people should show up at a certain time and not leave if there was work to be done (when isn’t there?) She expected people to be on the clock 24-7 and respond to emails whenever she sent them. Ivy was from Georgia and was a pretty easy going person. The former president was okay with whatever, as long as the work got done. This one put the clamps on and really cracked the whip. Ivy was a heavy woman and I can’t help but think that the combination of her weight and stress is what caused it.
*********************
Bets, I worry about you worrying too. I know I have said that before but I mean it because I really care about you.
GLove, I agree, but the people I’m referring to don’t quite believe that. I’ve never seen a player have more excuses made for him than Joba last year………but again, that board seems to dislike the Yankees anyway (odd as it is to say).
Let’s just make it clear, though, I’m talking about fans blaming the Yankees. Phil has never made excuses and I don’t believe Joba has, either.
The Yankees are the defending World Champs and won 2 WS in the past decade, had two other opportunities to win another, missed the playoffs 1X and should have had at least one more WS appearance and we’re still talking about all the mistakes made? This is the deepest pitching staff they’ve had in the past 10 years, have lots of potential in the minors, don’t you think they’ve figured out how to get it right by the way they’ve gone about it in the past few years?
They also made it sound as if Phil is too dumb to handle being a SP, which is the furthest thing from the truth. His name is Justin Terranova and he must take the cake for the stupidest mediot out there; he even outshines Badden and Pukica.
On “ruining” Joba:
Do I think Joba is ruined – no.
Do I think Joba was mishandled – absolutely.
My major complaints regarding Joba’s handling are as follows:
1. When the Yankees went to “stretch him” in 2008 with those idiotic 2 and 3 inning starts in real games they made Joba more important than the team. He should have been pitching in AAA or AA and building up his pitch count down there where (as I’ve said about a billion times) wins and losses take a back seat to player development.
2. If the Yankees considered him a starter then after 2007 he should not have started the following year in the pen. He should have started in AAA and left it at that.
3. If the Yankees have determined that Joba is a relief pitcher then I’m fine with him being in this year’s pen. If however they feel he’s a reliever for now then he should be developing the pitches that will make him the starter they once thought he would be in the minors, not pitching in relief.
4. If the plan is to keep him in the 8th inning until Mo retires, then I would move him. The 8th inning is not a wasted spot, but Joba can have a lot more value to the club with what he could bring back as a potential starter or closer for another team than as the 8th inning guy for the foreseeable future in NY. By the time Mariano is ready to walk away another pitcher could come through the organization who is suited to close (Chris Garcia?) or the Yankees can get a pitcher via free agency (Jonathan Broxton?)
Chip,
That’s true. My point is that every team makes mistakes in player development.
As GLove correctly states, it’s also up to the player to do his share and pull his weight from a developmental standpoint.
Trish, I appreciate that….
by the way the reason the Yankees kept tweaking Phil’s mechanics was because Phil kept getting hurt and they were looking for a way to fix whatever he was doing that was leading to injuries.
It’s like when Jose Reyes broke into the league and kept pulling his hamstrings – they got him to run a different way in hopes that it would help.
“Mike Lowell is down, being helped off field. Fouled ball real hard off what looks like left leg. Can barely put pressure on the leg.”
That can’t help his trade value.
“CC Sabathia hitting the market was the best gift Cashman has ever gotten in his life.”
See, you come off an intelligent LGY, but you go completely off the reservation when you make arguments like this.
Anticipating the major league market, responding to the market and turning it into an advantage for the Yankees is in fact Brian Cashman’s JOB, much more so in fact than minor league development and then the handling of the major league roster when they young players arrive.
To argue “how good of a job would he be doing if he didn’t get Sabathia is ridiculous. Getting him WAS his job. Taking away his successes and asking people to evaluate him without them is pointless.
Brian Cashman has been able to get the Yankees to the play-offs every year he’s been on the job except one, and I don’t place a whole lotta blame on him for ’98.
If the market IS changing and Cashman falls behind, then you got an argument. But they are defendng World Champions because of him, not despite him, and prohibitive favorites again this year. And so long as Sabathia is his prime, they’ll likely contend all those years.
Let’s worry about the San Francisco’s and Seattle’s (teams who have developed young studs) having n advantage over the Yankees when you know, they actually show any signs of having an advantage over the Yankees.
Alex ended up having a decent year in ’09 considering where he started with the injury. Well below his standards of course, but a lot of players would like to be able put up those numbers on a regular basis.
With the hip injury (hopefully) in the past and the world series monkey off his back, maybe he’ll find a groove this year and be up there in the MVP race again. If so, Tex will surely be in for a good year at the plate having a healthy Alex hit behind him all year.
Be fair – If Hughes was treated the way Joba was from August on last year, people would be livid and say the Yankees had no clue how to handle young pitching.
You can’t make a guy start on uneven rest, then back to normal rest, then tell him he can only go 40 pitches one start, then 50 pitches, then 100 pitches etc. There was no rhyme or reason for anything they did.
SJ44
March 26th, 2010 at 1:24 pm
Chip,
That’s true. My point is that every team makes mistakes in player development.
As GLove correctly states, it’s also up to the player to do his share and pull his weight from a developmental standpoint.
———————–
I agree – every club makes mistakes (three teams cut Carlos Pena in the same season before he caught on with Tampa Bay)
But most teams have to live with their mistakes, the Yankees don’t.
It’s both a blessing and a curse – on the one hand the Yankees can take more risks – draft high risk high reward players like Slade Heathcott or Andrew Brackman; but on the other hand because they do go after players like that instead of playing it safe they have more failures than other teams (though I would wager the percentages are about the same)
You know if Wang hadn’t busted his foot and remained healthy this whole time, I’m not sure we would have anything to talk about in regards to the Yanks not being able to develop homegrown starters.
It’s likely that they would have 3 homegrown for 2010.
A bad bunt by Wang that doesn’t get the runners over and puts him on 1B
A Tejada error that puts him on 2B
A Jeter single that has him rounding 3B.
If just one of those things didn’t happen? Wang might still be here.
LGY –
Given what you’ve seen thus far would you rather have:
Johan Santana
or
CC Sabathia
Phil Hughes
Nick Swisher
Javy Vazquez
Cashman took a calculated risk – he could have given up Hughes, Melky and Marquez to get Santana in 2008, but he didn’t. He was betting on CC getting to free agency and was prepared to open up the wallet to bring him to New York.
As a result he held onto his young players and was able to use Marquez to get Swisher and this year moved Melky to get Javy.
It’s the same gamble he’s playing this year in LF. He could have brought Johnny Damon back, could have traded for someone – but he’s willing to take a calculated risk with his LF spot for this year and hope that Carl Crawford hits the free agent market next year.
He could have traded Montero and other parts for Halladay and had Halladay and CC at the front of the rotation for the next 5 years – but he’s gambling that Cliff Lee will be available and he’ll be able to pair CC with another Cy Young guy (maybe two if they bring back Javy) and still have Montero.
“He should have been pitching in AAA or AA and building up his pitch count down there where (as I’ve said about a billion times) wins and losses take a back seat to player development.”
See,I KNOW what wins and losses his. I don’t have a clue what this mythical “player development” is exactly?
Can someone explain to me what the proper formula is?
I see “player development” as learning to pitch at the major league level? So how has actually pitching AT the major league level someone counter to this goal?
If you can answer that well you’re far smarter than I.
Learning to be a major league pitcher isn’t like a pitch-type combination code – like once you have the correct combo of pitchers, you’re all a sudden “ready”.
I’ll also remind some of you that what apparently was the tipping point for Phil Hughes was a secondary pitch that he most abandoned for a whole season and revived in all of 3 weeks in March.
poor Mike Lowell…one of the red sox I actually like, well him and Wakie
So much handwringing!
So did we decide that the Yankees ruined Wang, but have only mishandled Joba?
Joba’s not a mental midget that can’t perform because he’s been over-handled (for his own good I might add). He had very few innings before being turned over to a manager that had a penchant for overusing his go-to guys.
“If just one of those things didn’t happen? Wang might still be here.”
Here’s my hypothesis on the ranking of factors in the development of young pitchers
1.) Genetics. Most young pitchers are selected at a time when their eventual physical maturity is projection. Sometimes they don’t mature in the way conducive to major league success.
2.) Well, really 1A. – injury. Some young players are simply injuries waiting to happen, and nothing will change it.
This even applies to pitchers with healthy bodies but bad mechanics. Changing the way a pitcher throws a ball and expecting him to not only take to it, but get better than he’s ever been is dubious proposition. Can be done, but likely very unusual.
3.) Mental maturity and desire (1B. really). Some guys, physical tools aside, just don’t have the head to be ML successful. Yes, something that can perhaps be improved, but a uphill battle at best/
4.) Luck. The Wang injury case in point. And who doesn’t remember Brien Taylor.
5.) Organizational handling. There are certainly better coaches, programs, than others, but NO ONE seems to have figured out any great advantage over anyone else.
Probably the least profound factor in any of the above by a good margin.