The LoHud Yankees Blog

A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Chamberlain’s job all but guaranteed

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Mar 27, 2010 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Joe Girardi has said time and again that his relievers have to earn their spots and that no job is guaranteed. But he established this morning that he expects Joba Chamberlain to be in his bullpen. He might not be absolutely ruling out Triple-A, but that’s not the plan.

“The assumption is that he’s going to pitch at a high level and earn his spot,” Girardi said. “I expect him to be on this team.

As for a role, Girardi is still not committing to Chamberlain in the eighth inning. Last spring it would have been difficult to predict that Phil Hughes would take that setup job.

“You’d like to see someone lock it down,” Girardi said. “There are a lot of quality arms down there that could do it.”

Chamberlain is scheduled for one inning this afternoon. The Yankees might get him in back-to-back games before the end of spring training, but Girardi said that’s not a necessity.

• Girardi is not overly concerned by his team’s losing record this spring. “If you’re getting the pitching, then to me, that hitting is going to come,” he said.

• Still no decision on whether Curtis Granderson opens the season in center field or left field. “That’s a decision that I haven’t put a lot of thought into,” Girardi said. “I’ve pretty much just observed.”

• Another start for Marcus Thames against a left-handed pitcher. Nate Roberston is pitching for the Tigers.

• Pitchers available for the Yankees: A.J. Burnett, Joba Chamberlain, Chan Ho Park, Dave Robertson, Boone Logan, Eric Wordekemper and Wilkins Arias.

• Available to play off the bench: P.J. Pilittere, Neall French, Jon Weber, Justin Snyder, David Winfree, Austin Krum and Abraham Almonte. No positions were given, but Weber might be at first considering he was listed among the infielders.

• Since he was sent down, second baseman Kevin Russo has yet to go to the minor league complex.

Comments

comments

 

Advertisement

108 Responses to “Chamberlain’s job all but guaranteed”

  1. California March 27th, 2010 at 10:01 am

    how bout that

  2. California March 27th, 2010 at 10:02 am

    Robertson > Joba

  3. randy l. March 27th, 2010 at 10:04 am

    people tend to be in the future the way they have been in the past.

    i expect joba to be all over the charts in the future, from great to not so great, as he has been in the past.

    he will always probably be a bit out of shape, a bit too full of himself, very likable to other players, and a pretty good pitcher.

    the only way i can see for him to be a consistent elite pitcher is to stay in the bullpen where there is more room for his flakiness and a better fit for his temperament.

    that said, it would not hurt him in the bullpen to have another year in 2011 to further develop all four pitches .

    joba is a high maintenance guy. being in the bullpen, with predominantly two pitches, he is a lot easier for the coaching staff to coach. it gets old always having to be thinking about someone and pushing a rock up a hill.

    i suspect yankee coaches and management are simply tired of thinking about joba. the bullpen is a good place to put him and move on to other things.

  4. trisha - OPPC member who sees, hears, and knows all. 28 is on its way!!!!! March 27th, 2010 at 10:06 am

    I wouldn’t be upset seeing Joba at AAA. I don’t think he’d be too happy!

    I try not to read the tealeaves too much so just call this my immediate reaction. Joba would be better off at AAA or NOT as the 8th iuning guy if there is any hope of starting in his future. He’d be better off stretched out and not having people fall in love with his 8th inning skill set!

    JMO

  5. randy l. March 27th, 2010 at 10:06 am

    rather :
    “that said, it would not hurt him in the bullpen to have another year in the rotation in 2011 to further develop all four pitches .”

  6. choochoo March 27th, 2010 at 10:09 am

    Hopefully Girardi is “observing” Gardner also. Observing that he can’t hit, can’t throw and has zero power. Also observing that he will always be a lifetime .250 hitter who shouldn’t even remotely be considered for moving Curtis Granderson to another position.

  7. randy l. March 27th, 2010 at 10:15 am

    i forgot to add that i’m tired of thinking about joba.

    he takes up too much brain space .

    i think that yankee management and the coaches have come to the same conclusion.

    hughes i’m excited about because he seems capable of incremental yearly improvements that will , added to his already good stuff, eventually make him a solid #2-#3. starter.

    hughes mechanically has the solid base to add and improve pitches without taking away from the ones he already has.

    coaching seems to stick with hughes.

  8. Bronx Jeers March 27th, 2010 at 10:18 am

    Is Mariano entering his “lite-jazz” decade of life?

    If so, there’s a kinder, gentler version of Enter Sandman ready for him.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/An.....BmM79YadYM

    originally posted by El Duque at the “It Is High” blog

  9. Tom K March 27th, 2010 at 10:18 am

    Well, actually he’s a .256 lifetime hitter.

    Beyond that, his numbers are weighted down by his first taste of the big leagues – last year’s .724 OPS isn’t really good, but it does show that there could be room for growth. Add in his stolen base percentage and defense, and his value increases.

    Curtis Granderson doesn’t seem to care where he plays, so why should we care? Gardner is starting the season in the lineup; so you may as well put your best defensive alignment on the field – if they feel that Granderson in left/Gardner in center is that alignment, then there really is nothing to complain about. It’s not like Granderson will forget how to play center if he needs to move back.

  10. Patrick March 27th, 2010 at 10:19 am

    randy,

    I still am convinced that Chamberlain is a starter long-term. He was just too good in 2008 for the Yanks to simply abandon that idea.

  11. choochoo March 27th, 2010 at 10:21 am

    Tom K–he’s also a .000 World Series lifetime hitter. That might mean something.

  12. Fran (the original) and OPPC member March 27th, 2010 at 10:22 am

    I beleive if Joba is the 8th inning guy and successful at it early on this season then everyone will want him to stay in the bullpen.

  13. choochoo March 27th, 2010 at 10:23 am

    Patrick–Joba’s “too good” 2008 campaign included a DL stint following one of his starts. He’s never again thrown as hard or as consistently.

  14. Rich in NJ March 27th, 2010 at 10:27 am

    I would prefer that Joba start the season at AAA.

  15. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 27th, 2010 at 10:29 am

    What does that mean, that Russo hasn’t shown up? That he’s upset?

    It would be nice to see AJ have a good performance as he’s really struggled this spring.

  16. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 27th, 2010 at 10:30 am

    Randy, you don’t think Phil is capable of being more than a #2-3? I would be disappointed if he didn’t turn out to be better than that.

  17. Boston Dave - XXVII March 27th, 2010 at 10:31 am

    There are always “ifs” and “buts”, but if Joba continues to improve and Park and Marte even closely resemble late 2009…

    The Yanks bullpen could be dominant.

    Rivera
    Joba
    Robertson
    Park
    Marte
    Aceves

    Wow.

    Remember last season when they started with guys like Veras, Edwar, etc? We all tried to be optimistic, but this year maybe there’s no other way to be…

    but optimistic :)

  18. Frank March 27th, 2010 at 10:31 am

    What does that mean, that Russo hasn’t shown up? That he’s upset?

    He’s in their lineup today. I’d assume it means the Yankees needed to keep him around for split squad stuff and things of that nature.

  19. randy l. March 27th, 2010 at 10:31 am

    patrick-

    i don’t think the yankees are abandoning it as much as they are putting the burden on joba to make it happen.

    he knew that he was competing for a fifth starter position this spring and he didn’t come into spring training wowing us all with his fitness level and commitment to winning the position.

    it was business as usual for joba and he did alright, just not good enough to beat out hughes.

    i don’t think it’s a stuff thing as he has the pitches ad arm to be a starter. i think it’s a temperament thing that makes joba more likely to be in the bullpen long term.

    he just doesn’t seem to want to pay the price it would take for him to be an elite starter.

  20. trisha - OPPC member who sees, hears, and knows all. 28 is on its way!!!!! March 27th, 2010 at 10:32 am

    Fran, I agree. But you know me. I want Joba to be what Joba wants to be – if he can be it. :) It’s all about self actualization.

    Patrick I’m with you. I’m still not ready to give up on his raw talent.

    If he didn’t have the mixture of overnight success/overhype mixed with personal problems (his DWI and the really nasty stuff about his mom making the news) I might think that he just didn’t have what we thought he did, skills wise. But I think an unfortunate confluence of events “conspired” to really throw him into reverse.

    I just hope it isn’t too late…

  21. Frank March 27th, 2010 at 10:33 am

    “Randy, you don’t think Phil is capable of being more than a #2-3? I would be disappointed if he didn’t turn out to be better than that.”

    What’s wrong with being a #2 or #3? That’s what Andy Pettitte’s been his entire career. Who would have a problem with that?

  22. SJ44 March 27th, 2010 at 10:33 am

    I would prefer he stays in the majors and pitches well again.

    AAA for a guy with focus issues makes little sense to me.

    He can get AAA hitters out with his average stuff.

    I want to see him respond to this challenge.

    To do so, he needs to stay in the majors and get back to being the aggressive pitcher he was a few years ago.

  23. Boston Dave - XXVII March 27th, 2010 at 10:33 am

    Patrick,

    I agree. That glimpse in 2008 is the key. If there’s even a chance he can return to that – being one of the best 10 starters in the game – it’s almost a crime to not make sure he can’t before changing “the plan.”

  24. randy l. March 27th, 2010 at 10:34 am

    “you don’t think Phil is capable of being more than a #2-3? I would be disappointed if he didn’t turn out to be better than that.”

    betsy-

    on the yankees, being a #2 or #3 is pretty good.

    their #2 or #3 would be a #1 on a lot of teams.

  25. SJ44 March 27th, 2010 at 10:36 am

    As far as his future role, how he pitches in the present will determine that.

    It’s up to Joba and nobody else.

  26. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 27th, 2010 at 10:37 am

    Pat M mentioned this yesterday, but I did think it odd the Yankees would throw Phil on 3 days rest in ST.

    Frank, to me, that would be a disappointment. I’m not saying being a #2 or #3 means you’re not a good pitcher, but that was not Phil’s ceiling as a prospect and I’m not sure what’s changed over the past couple of years other than that he’s had injuries and hasn’t been able to start consistently. I guess I have high expectations for Phil…

  27. Boston Dave - XXVII March 27th, 2010 at 10:37 am

    SJ44,

    does Jobas fastball/slider comment worry you?

    I felt like the predictability of his slider last year for hitters was his downfall.

    I almost think he needs to do something else to keep hitters off balance, until or unless his fastball command returns to 2008 form.

  28. trisha - OPPC member who sees, hears, and knows all. 28 is on its way!!!!! March 27th, 2010 at 10:37 am

    I wish I could get his cell phone number and call him up and have “the talk”. I hope I’m wrong but I get the feeling he is getting lost in the shuffle right now because he has been more than a handful. Not good. Joba IMO definitely needs constant guidance. He’s almost the anti-Phil that way. But you don’t give up on the kid or just set him aside. He has as much value as any other pitcher on the Yankees. They need to remember that.

    (I would hope and assume they do. I’m just venting my fears, and since I don’t have them often, I tend to pay attention to them when I do…)

  29. Rich in NJ March 27th, 2010 at 10:39 am

    “He can get AAA hitters out with his average stuff.”

    But he will only be using two of his four pitches as in the pen, so there’s a trade-off.

  30. Boston Dave - XXVII March 27th, 2010 at 10:40 am

    The Red Sox have a bunch of pitchers whose “ceiling” is high.

    Of course, they’ll be lucky if 1 of them reach it.

    Prospects and their ceilings has really hurt fans IMO because so few hit them.

  31. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 27th, 2010 at 10:42 am

    Randy, if you mean because he’d be behind CC/AJ(Javy), I agree. I think I misunderstood what you said. I would kill for him to be a #2 or #3 in the next couple of years. He’s only 23, to be 24 this year. When do pitchers hit their peak, 27-28?

    Anyway, I agree with your overall point about Phil; this kind of stuff is why I love this board.

    It’s interesting that Cash and Eiland seemed to contradict each other. Eiland specifically said that Joba will remain in the pen and will not be a starter this year, while Cash hinted the opposite could be true. However, I do think Eiland was talking about Joba not being removed from the pen to be a spot starter, given the stretching out that would have to take place (only to have him go back to the pen in short order). I suspect that if a SP went down long term, Joba would go back in the rotation I’m really rooting for him to do well there.

  32. randy l. March 27th, 2010 at 10:43 am

    brian ( red sox fan) a year ago said that joba didn’t scare him anymore and that he was just a soft tosser.

    that seemed trash talk at the time, but until joba gets his fastball back brian is more right than wrong.

    joba needs the big fastball. all his other pitches become weapons when hitters have to worry about his fastball.

    now that he’s back in the pen he has the perfect opportunity to get the plus fastball back.

  33. SJ44 March 27th, 2010 at 10:45 am

    BD,

    No.

    His downfall was losing command of his fastball. That made him more predictable with his slider and hitters made the adjustment to lay off it.

    Joba never made the counteradjustment.

    Baseball is a game that requires players to constantly make adjustments.

    Joba has to go to the pen and try to become a dominant pitcher again. He’s not going out there to “work on things”.

    He needs to his get fastball-slider combo back to dominant levels. To do so, you have to feature them and make them the priority.

    Personally, I’ve seen good signs from him this Spring.

    He just has to build on it once the season starts.

  34. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 27th, 2010 at 10:48 am

    Frank, thanks! I didn’t think Russo would be the kind of guy to not show up at camp – and what you said makes a lot of sense.

    I still hesitate to give up on Joba as a starter, but it will be hard to judge in the pen if he’s not going to use all his pitches. The Yanks won’t be able to tell if he can repeat his mechanics enough to be a starter nor can they tell if he’s got the stamina to be a starter. I can see why some want him to go to AAA, but I don’t really think that’s a possibility at this point.

  35. SJ44 March 27th, 2010 at 10:48 am

    I said in January the Yankees were re-thinking Joba’s role, both present and future.

    Joel Sherman wrote an excellent column this AM that lays out the Yankees position re: Joba.

    His column will tell you how the team views him at the present time.

  36. BBFan March 27th, 2010 at 10:49 am

    Joba will be in the BP to start the season. 8th inning may not be guaranteed, he has to earn it.

    If he does not perform well in the early going, they will send him to AAA in a heartbeat to work out his issues. Last year he was lucky there were no other options and they could not send him down. They will show him tough love this year. They will observe how much he does not listen to the catchers.

  37. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 27th, 2010 at 10:53 am

    So if you’re in the pen and you know you can up the velocity a bit because you’re only going 1 or 2 innings, it leads to renewed aggressiveness? If that’s the case, that’s something Phil will need to take into being a SP (though not necessarily the idea that he has to throw harder). If that’s the case, I can see how a stint in the pen would help Joba.

  38. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 27th, 2010 at 10:53 am

    I’m going to read that article in short order….

  39. GreenBeret7 March 27th, 2010 at 10:53 am

    Chamberlain didn’t say that he was junking his curve ball and change-up. All he said was that he’ll mainly use his fastball and slider. There’s a huge difference. He’ll have bullpen time and 3-4 run leads that will allow him to ise all 4 pitches in game competition.

  40. Boston Dave - XXVII March 27th, 2010 at 10:54 am

    SJ,

    did Jobas slider look as sharp to you last year? It just seemed like he was missing badly with it (I realize you don’t throw a slider for strikes) and hitters were picking it up quickly.

    I agree his fastball command was off – and when he did throw it for strikes it was belt high.

  41. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 27th, 2010 at 10:56 am

    “But he will only be using two of his four pitches as in the pen, so there’s a trade-off.”

    A trade-off that apparently did not hurt Phil Hughes very much. He got his change-up back in 3 weeks in March.

  42. Rich in NJ March 27th, 2010 at 10:56 am

    I don’t see anything in Sherman’s column that makes a persuasive case for why putting Joba in the pen offers a better opportunity to find out what he actually is.

  43. Boston Dave - XXVII March 27th, 2010 at 10:57 am

    GB7,

    you’re right. I guess I’m concerned with his apparent stubborness with the slider last year.

    Hopefully he does use all 4 pitches, though he’ll no doubt rely on those 2 80+% of the time.

  44. El Duderino March 27th, 2010 at 10:57 am

    Thames is a goner.

  45. Rich in NJ March 27th, 2010 at 11:01 am

    “A trade-off that apparently did not hurt Phil Hughes very much. He got his change-up back in 3 weeks in March.”

    Seriously? He didn’t get his change going for two years, yet he somehow finds it in 3 weeks and that offers an instructive and generalizable example for other pitchers? I don’t think so.

  46. Nate B March 27th, 2010 at 11:02 am

    Chad,
    I didn’t read through all of the comments to see if this question has already been answered, but I wanted to ask about your Kevin Russo comment. Are you saying that his not going to the minor league complex is because he has skipped town, or because he has continued to be used by the major league club? Thanks

  47. Bronx Jeers March 27th, 2010 at 11:04 am

    “His downfall was losing command of his fastball. That made him more predictable with his slider and hitters made the adjustment to lay off it. ”

    So true. No one was chasing that slider last season. And he just kept on throwing it. I think the majority of his shake-offs last season were on calls for the fastball when he wanted to go slider. It was frustrating.

    And on the other hand, I think on most MLB teams, he would still be starting this season. But the Yanks have a lot of money invested in making the post season as always and fans should be extremely happy with that plan. It’s been stated ad nauseam that developing starters costs wins. Wins that the Yanks can’t afford to lose if they want to make the playoffs.

  48. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 27th, 2010 at 11:06 am

    “So if you’re in the pen and you know you can up the velocity a bit because you’re only going 1 or 2 innings, it leads to renewed aggressiveness?”

    Betsy, it’s about a mind-set, which most people agree is a significant issue for Chamberlain.

    I believe for some pitchers, the idea of setting batters up for the 2nd and 3rd AB’s becomes too much of the approach – trying to be very fine location wise, using multiple pitches in unpredictable counts.

    Many elite hitters say you have to look for the fastball and adjust to the breaking stuff. Chamberlain needs to adapt this approach to pitching.

    Chamberlain just needs to go get hitters out, go through the line-up and put them away. If and when he every returns to the rotation he needs to go through the line-up, establish a rhythm and then adapt the second time through the line-up.

    Becoming a true 4 pitch pitcher takes time. What he needs to learn is he’s capable of getting guys out with his primary stuff more than once. He can be a good starter this way.

    Becoming an elite starter takes time and seasoning.

    In my opinion, Chamberlain, in addition to losing ticks off his fastball, wanted to be David Cone before he every really become Joba Chamberlain.

  49. Money Mike March 27th, 2010 at 11:08 am

    Why not dump Thames and sign Dye?… neither are very good in the field and Dye can definitely hit, theres no doubt about that, and if an injury occurs I’d feel much more confident he could play everyday for a while, they are saving over 2mil on getting rid of Gaudin

  50. GreenBeret7 March 27th, 2010 at 11:08 am

    Boston Dave – XXVII
    March 27th, 2010 at 10:57 am
    GB7,

    you’re right. I guess I’m concerned with his apparent stubborness with the slider last year.

    Hopefully he does use all 4 pitches, though he’ll no doubt rely on those 2 80+% of the time.

    ————————————————————

    Seems like when he was going through the early season build-up, he didn’t use the pitches because he wasn’t in the game long enough to use the. By the time he had gotten the innings built up enough, he had lost the feel for those pitches and when he did use them, he got mashed.

    I may be wrong, but, that was my impression. He’s now at the point that he has to start listening and learning from those that know better. As others, like SJ, Randy and CB said….it’s now up to him. He can stay as he was last year and destroy his own career, or, he can pay attention and get himself back into the rotation….unless he decides he likes coming out of the pen and prep as the future closer.

  51. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 27th, 2010 at 11:09 am

    Rich, I just read the article; I’m not sure SJ was suggesting the article was about Joba in the pen being a way to find out who he really is, but rather that it discussed the Yankees feelings about him overall. It is pretty revealing. It does seem pretty clear that they don’t quite trust him, but I don’t think that’s the only reason he lost the job. Sure, they like Phil a lot and apparently trust him more at this point, but if he hadn’t developed the change to the point where it now could be a good pitch for him (a scout even called it plus), I think Joba may have been the 5th (because I seriously doubt Ace and Mitre were real candidates). I don’t think they are absolutely certain that he’s a career reliever, they’re just not sure what or who he is. He does appear to be high maintenance.

  52. randy l. March 27th, 2010 at 11:10 am

    “Many elite hitters say you have to look for the fastball and adjust to the breaking stuff.”

    can you name even one hitter who looks breaking ball and reacts to the fastball?

  53. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 27th, 2010 at 11:11 am

    “Seriously? He didn’t get his change going for two years, yet he somehow finds it in 3 weeks and that offers an instructive and generalizable example for other pitchers? I don’t think so.”

    Seriously… Joba Chamberlain already has a decent curveball. he knows how to throw it. And I seriously doubt he’s going to abandon it (or the change-up) altogether.

    He will still throw those pitches (albeit less frequently in game situations) and can still throw them in non-game situation.

    Getting back to them if and when the need arises won’t necessarily be the starting from scratch proposition some are making it out to be.

  54. Rose March 27th, 2010 at 11:11 am

    I agree with what Mo said-
    Joba in the pen.
    Hughes starting pitcher.

  55. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 27th, 2010 at 11:12 am

    “can you name even one hitter who looks breaking ball and reacts to the fastball?”

    No.

  56. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 27th, 2010 at 11:12 am

    I don’t think Phil worked on his change seriously for 2 years. He said it himself after the previous Phillies game when the Yankees gushed despite the HRs – in 2007 and 2008, he was rehabbing and trying to regain his FB command. Sure, he probably worked on it to some degree, but it was hardly his main focus. He obviously at one point had a good change since he showed it in Texas in 2007; maybe all he needed to regain that pitch was the chance to work on it consistently

    CB mentioned yesterday that he’d like to see Phil get more ground balls (and I’ve seen some concern elsewhere that Phil gives up too many fly balls – though he did not give up many HRs last year in the pen or, as I recall, even as a starter). Does that mean he’s quit throwing the 2 seamer?

  57. Rich in NJ March 27th, 2010 at 11:12 am

    Joba wasn’t pitching like David Cone in 2008 before he got hurt, when his FB was averaging 95 mph, his slider had a nasty bite, and he mixed in his curve and an an occasional changeup. The injury changed everything, whether as a result of physical or psychological factors or both. Four to six weeks at AAA as a starter could help get him back to being that pitcher, even if he spends the rest of 2010 in the ML pen.

  58. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 27th, 2010 at 11:13 am

    “Why not dump Thames and sign Dye?”

    Maybe Dye doesn’t want to sign?

  59. Rich in NJ March 27th, 2010 at 11:14 am

    Betsy

    I don’t disagree with what you are saying, but my point is that I don’t think the pen is where he should start the season.

  60. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 27th, 2010 at 11:14 am

    Stuckey, that’s an interesting comment about Joba trying to be David Cone.

  61. trisha - OPPC member who sees, hears, and knows all. 28 is on its way!!!!! March 27th, 2010 at 11:16 am

    “As far as his future role, how he pitches in the present will determine that.

    It’s up to Joba and nobody else.”

    I’d say this is the alpha and the omega. Truly.

  62. randy l. March 27th, 2010 at 11:17 am

    “No.”

    good answer.

    when a hitter is guessing on a pitch, he’s going to have little chance to hit a fastball even if it’s right down the middle.

    there was one hitter i know of who looked off speed and reacted to the fastball and that was all oliver.

    pitchers could not get in oliver’s kitchen even then.

  63. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 27th, 2010 at 11:17 am

    Phil was very tentative when he came back from the injury in 2007, so maybe Joba has the same problem. Phil didn’t trust his legs to hold up; maybe Joba didn’t trust his arm to hold up throwing as hard as he did?

  64. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 27th, 2010 at 11:18 am

    If you guess off-speed and you get a FB, how on earth do you speed up your bat to catch up?

  65. SJ44 March 27th, 2010 at 11:18 am

    No it won’t. If that was the case, he would be in AAA right now.

    AAA isn’t the cure all for Joba. In fact, it could just be something else in his head and it adds to the problems.

    He’s a major league pitcher. He can get it going at the major league level. Just as Hughes did last year.

    Joba needs to be challenged. He’s also good enough to help this team win now.

    You accomplish both at the major league level.

  66. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 27th, 2010 at 11:19 am

    Betsy, but as others have pointed out, his approach was perhaps 1 part decision (he wanted to prove to everyone he was a starter in the elite vein) and 1 part necessity (he stuff wasn’t all there).

    Although one has to wonder why it was suddenly there to a greater degree (though not 2007-08 level) for three starts post-All Star game, and went away as quickly as it came?

  67. Rich in NJ March 27th, 2010 at 11:19 am

    Here is the Pitch Fx of just one of Joba’s 2008 starts, v. Bos on July 25th:

    link

    I think we forget what he was.

  68. Rich in NJ March 27th, 2010 at 11:19 am

    Link didn’t work:

    http://brooksbaseball.net/pfx/.....evDate=725

  69. The Ohta Faction March 27th, 2010 at 11:19 am

    With the slop Joba has been throwing at the plate the last year or so, neither he nor anyone else really has any business pressing for clarity from the Yankees.

    If I show erratic performance at work, I expect my boss to be concerned/apprehensive. My course of action would be simple: show consistency and keep quiet.

  70. trisha - OPPC member who sees, hears, and knows all. 28 is on its way!!!!! March 27th, 2010 at 11:20 am

    Rich I don’t know that it will happen but I agree with you. I’d rather have him stretched out and reworking whatever he has to on a more extended basis. I’m not fearful that it’s only AAA players since we already know that he knows how to use it in the majors. I just think he needs to reinvent himself and that would give him the best chance to work on it in a more focused fashion. And personally? The pen is so strong that I don’t think they’d miss him.

  71. Bronx Jeers March 27th, 2010 at 11:21 am

    Although I did get a big kick out of Cashman’s “mission complete” statement yesterday regarding Joba.

    I mean sure, I guess so if the “mission” was to end up in the same place that they were 3 seasons ago.

    Yeah he’s got a lot of starts under his belt now but I’m not too crazy about the idea of him starting in the pen and then joining the rotation later if the need arises. And that’s certainly a possibility.

    I just feel like it’s one of those “been there, done that, doesn’t work” situations.

  72. trisha - OPPC member who sees, hears, and knows all. 28 is on its way!!!!! March 27th, 2010 at 11:21 am

    BostonDave, if you’re still here, I’m thinking about your offer. Although I am more no than yes, I am weighing it.

  73. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 27th, 2010 at 11:23 am

    “good answer.”

    Only answer. May I assume you were questioning my qualification of my remarks by saying “many” instead of “all”.

    It was qualifying how many say it out loud, not think it.

    Man, I can be a nit-picky, but you even topped me with this one.

  74. Rich in NJ March 27th, 2010 at 11:23 am

    “No it won’t. If that was the case, he would be in AAA right now.”

    That assumes that the Yankees don’t make mistakes, but like everyone else, they do.

    Maybe AAA isn’t the right move, but we can’t say definitively that it isn’t.

    “Joba needs to be challenged. He’s also good enough to help this team win now”

    At this point, imo, being a dominant starter at AAA for four to six weeks would be a challenge for Joba. I want to see him be what he was in his very short stint at AAA (he has only logged 8IP there) in 2007.

  75. Erica - always OPPC - Sesame Street Mafia and GTLU supporter March 27th, 2010 at 11:24 am

    Leaving work very shortly to head to AC for the rest of the weekend and hang with the Cake Boss.

    See you all tomorrow!!!!

  76. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 27th, 2010 at 11:25 am

    Bronx Jeers, I don’t think the Yankees are anticipating a devastating injury to a member of their rotation, but if it happens, Joba to the rotation (IF he’s doing ok in the pen) is a possibility. I’d prefer to leave him in the pen, though.

    Stuckey, that was weird. He went back to Nebraska, cleared his mind and then was great for 3 starts. He should have built on those starts instead of reverting back to his prior form; that was discouraging.

  77. SJ44 March 27th, 2010 at 11:25 am

    What he met by “mission complete”, it means he’s beyond any more innings limitations.

    He doesn’t need to re-invent himself.

    He needs to go back to what he was.

    It all starts with fastball command and using it to set up his slider. You can achieve that working out of the pen.

  78. GreenBeret7 March 27th, 2010 at 11:25 am

    randy l.
    March 27th, 2010 at 11:17 am
    “No.”

    good answer.

    when a hitter is guessing on a pitch, he’s going to have little chance to hit a fastball even if it’s right down the middle.

    there was one hitter i know of who looked off speed and reacted to the fastball and that was all oliver.

    pitchers could not get in oliver’s kitchen even then.

    ————————————————————

    Al Oliver was a marvelous athlete. No pitcher or pitch that he couldn’t hit hard. He was also a damned fine center fielder when he came up. How he never got serious consideration for the HOF is beyond me. About the only thing he could do well was throw.

  79. Rich in NJ March 27th, 2010 at 11:27 am

    “It all starts with fastball command and using it to set up his slider. You can achieve that working out of the pen.”

    You can, but you can achieve it at AAA as well. I don’t think the choice is all that clear cut.

  80. SJ44 March 27th, 2010 at 11:30 am

    They also don’t make as many mistakes as many fans think they do.

    What if the Yankees read on Joba is more accurate than others? If it is, and he flourishes in the pen, getting back to what he was, then one could say they were right.

    People decried putting Hughes in the bullpen last year. A lot of fans said it was a mistake.

    Turned out, they were wrong. The move worked for Hughes and the team and now Hughes is a starter again.

    Perhaps the team is looking for the same thing with Joba.

  81. GreenBeret7 March 27th, 2010 at 11:32 am

    Betsy – Romine wasn’t built in a day
    March 27th, 2010 at 11:18 am
    If you guess off-speed and you get a FB, how on earth do you speed up your bat to catch up?

    ————————————————————

    have strong wrists and fast hands. Al Oliver had that. If he couldn’t hit the ball hard, he could still foul the ball off until he got the right pitch. Not many power hitters like Oliver struck out so seldom. Over 9000 at bats and a little over 750 strikeouts.

  82. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 27th, 2010 at 11:32 am

    “You can, but you can achieve it at AAA as well. I don’t think the choice is all that clear cut.”

    Perhaps the Yankees are intrigued by the apparent value the experience had for Phil Hughes?

  83. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 27th, 2010 at 11:34 am

    GB, wow – that’s an impressive #. Wasn’t Oliver on the Brewers (or am I thinking of Cecil Cooper)?

  84. Pat M. March 27th, 2010 at 11:35 am

    SJ, What I find so interesting today is how the whole Joba to the pen topic is now widely accepted as being the best thing for him and the club…..However just 6 weeks ago when this was mentioned it was not viewed very favorable and lead to personal attacks and ridicule….I know you took the brunt of the heat and by no means I am suggesting a sense of validation, but clearly some folks here just might be more apt to listen rather than resist the obvious……Believe what yo see, and then form an educated opinion…..Javy Vasquez spelled Joba to the pen..Clear and simple

  85. SJ44 March 27th, 2010 at 11:37 am

    The idea is to have him help the Yankees win games. That’s the priority.

    Going to AAA to do the same thing he would be doing in NY makes little sense.

  86. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 27th, 2010 at 11:38 am

    Rarely mentioned in this “debate” is the seeming assumption by fans that the development of a young major league player (especially pitcher) is linear. And there is also a degree of fatalism by less observant fans.

    Put together they believe a path to what a major league player will ultimately be is a straight line.

    He had a set-back in 2009, so therefore that’s the ultimate direction his career is going.

    His fastball and slider weren’t as sharp, so therefore they won’t improve.

    He’s still a YOUNG pitcher with relatively little professional experience who also in fact never even had the world-beating hall of fame worthy stuff he all of a sudden found himself with in 2007.

    He may never be able to dial it up to 100 again. But that doesn’t mean he can’t be a good to very good to even great pitcher again.

    It doesn’t mean he can’t have better stuff than he had last year.

    Predicting his ultimate career off of last year will likely be prone with small sample size error.

  87. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 27th, 2010 at 11:39 am

    Phil and Joba are completely different pitchers and people, so we shouldn’t necessarily expect a stint in the pen to effect them in the same way. That’s the only caveat I would place on the idea of the pen being a quick fix. We still have to see how Phil pitches as a starter after his stint in the pen. He hasn’t had particularly good FB command this spring, and he’s not been on tv that much, so it’s hard to tell if he’s been aggressive with his FB. I imagine that if the Yankees weren’t happy with his approach, though, even the developing change wouldn’t have been enough to win him the job. I do think confidence he gained in the pen helped him in his development of the change, but we do still have to see what the true effects of him being in the pen will be. We can’t quite call it a success story.

  88. vinny-b March 27th, 2010 at 11:39 am

    “Joba would be better off at AAA and NOT as the 8th inning guy if there is any hope of starting in his future”
    ——————————————————

    no. Because that would make sense

  89. GreenBeret7 March 27th, 2010 at 11:39 am

    Betsy – Romine wasn’t built in a day
    March 27th, 2010 at 11:34 am
    GB, wow – that’s an impressive #. Wasn’t Oliver on the Brewers (or am I thinking of Cecil Cooper)?

    ————————————————————

    Yeah, you’re probably thinking of Cecil Cooper.

  90. Bronx Jeers March 27th, 2010 at 11:40 am

    Rich,

    I was actually going to post the link to the thread for that game. 7/25/08. Joba’s Fenway debut. Probably the highlight of that season. Yanks were just on the cusp of catching the Sox. Joba outpitched Beckett. Nady and Marte were acquired that night. Giambi even beat the shift! (unintentionally though)

    It was like they were reaching the summit of Everest. Then they fell off a ridge and tumbled into Nepal.

    Back to the present… But let’s say that Joba is doing his thing in the pen for a couple of months and then there is a need for a starter. Is he ready at that point to join the rotation? Do they need to stretch him out a bit? It smells of danger. Healthwise.

    I mean there is no simple solution to this puzzle.

  91. SJ44 March 27th, 2010 at 11:40 am

    Pat M,

    I believed I was performing a humanitarian gesture to give folks a heads up as to how it was going to shake out! lol

    I tried to tell folks opinions in the organization were shifting.

    Can’t say they weren’t warned. lol

  92. GreenBeret7 March 27th, 2010 at 11:46 am

    SJ44
    March 27th, 2010 at 11:40 am
    Pat M,

    I believed I was performing a humanitarian gesture to give folks a heads up as to how it was going to shake out! lol

    I tried to tell folks opinions in the organization were shifting.

    Can’t say they weren’t warned. lol

    ————————————————————

    Oh, please. The only thing you were trying to do is have a winter and spring training without whining. They’re too smart for that, though. They’ll always find something. LMAO.

  93. trisha - OPPC member who sees, hears, and knows all. 28 is on its way!!!!! March 27th, 2010 at 11:47 am

    Actually I meant go back to what he was when I said re-invent himself.

    As a thought, Phil is a lot more mature and being in the bullpen didn’t hamper his progress because he is such a focused individual. Hopefully Joba has stepped up his maturity a bit.

    I’m not convinced and think he’s young in so many ways that a full year in AAA could be just what he needs. Lots less pressure, lots more time for him to mature. He seems to be racing so much of the time that he probably doesn’t realize what he really needs.

    It’s certainly a possibility, though his going there might not be a possibility.

    I’d do it.

    SJ, I think that sometimes you are hasty in terms of throwing players to the wolves. By that I mean that I think you believe that they should be at a certain level and if they’re not it’s an indication of something permanent. (I think back to your comments last season when Gaudin had a rough first outing against the Jays and you wanted to banish him because you said if he couldn’t throw strikes he shouldn’t be in the majors.) He did adjust and go on to help the Yankees.

    I’m definitely a tough love person but when it comes to the Yankee players, I believe in giving them a ton of support and doing everything possible to help them out. (Even sending them down to AAA if that helps.) Maybe that’s not realistic all the time.

  94. Glenner March 27th, 2010 at 11:47 am

    This is off topic but when you talk about low strikeouts it is my hero Nellie Fox and everyone else is an also ran. With a bat who’s handle was nearly as big as the barrel
    he averaged 15 strikeouts per 162 games LIFETIME for (I think) 19 years.
    Granderson or Swisher can reach 15 strike outs in about 10 games.

  95. tarantula March 27th, 2010 at 11:49 am

    Joba needs help from multiple social workers. It’s all in his head imo. Does anyone know if he lives the “Mantle” lifestyle? The guzzler gut may be a clue?

  96. Mike C. March 27th, 2010 at 11:51 am

    I got to be honest here. I’m not expecting much from Marcus Thames. He has had a terrible spring and he is going to make the team by default. I would rather see another utility guy make the team or wouldn’t we have been better off just bringing back Shelley Duncan to atleast compete with Thames?

  97. Pat M. March 27th, 2010 at 11:54 am

    SJ, You’re more like a lightening rod her at times…..Some would rather fight with the messenger than to heed the message…..It was very clear than Phil Hughes was going to be moved to the rotation in 2010,and that the club was not going to have both Joba & Phil in the rotation after Joba’s meltdown in the 2nd half last season…..When Vasquez came aboard it was a done deal….I just wonder how many really saw what was really going on with him in 09…..Personally, I like to see him get back to basics and get another shot as a starter, however with the odometer clicking on Rivera, and last October was a wake-up call, Joba just may never see a starting assignment ever again in Pinstripes…..

  98. SJ44 March 27th, 2010 at 11:54 am

    Trisha,

    Chad Gaudin was a minimal contributor to the team. He was a fringe player. Joba isn’t a fringe player. The two aren’t comparable.

    What if his best role, present and future, is in the bullpen? Going to AAA isn’t the answer.

    If Joba went to AAA, every game he pitched would be soldout minor league games. In other words, he wouldn’t be pitching in the “quiet” of the minor leagues.

    All it would do is mess with his head. That’s not what the Yankees want to do.

    If anything, they are trying to simplify things for him to get him back to what he was.

  99. Drive 4-6 March 27th, 2010 at 11:54 am

    Sending Joba to to AAA doesn’t help his development one bit. What is going to prove by being successful in Scranton? That’s he as good as Kei Igawa? We all know he’s a lot better than that. He just needs to be more consistent. And the way to become more consistent by getting more reps against major league hitters.

  100. SJ44 March 27th, 2010 at 11:57 am

    Pat M,

    I agree. In a perfect world, Joba gets back to form this year coming out of the pen and slides back into the rotation next year. If it worked for Hughes last year, it can work for Joba.

  101. Bronx Jeers March 27th, 2010 at 11:58 am

    Does anyone know if he lives the “Mantle” lifestyle? The guzzler gut may be a clue?

    ————————————————————-

    The problem is that Joba went to college

    Phil never went so he never studied “Guzzling 101″ :wink:

  102. Pat M. March 27th, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    Tricia, Ownership mentality does compromise patience at times….Remember, this is the Big Leagues and the time to hold a players hand is nill, especially a veteran…..SJ can be abrupt, and some find that to be offensive, but it is part of the game…..Randy & GB can be very obtuse when it comes to being bumped…Good thing Randy was a catcher rather than a pitcher, for the obvious reasons

  103. pat March 27th, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    “Joba would be better off at AAA and NOT as the 8th inning guy if there is any hope of starting in his future”

    The 8th inning last year didn’t hurt Hughes’ chance at being a starter this year.

  104. Dan March 27th, 2010 at 12:32 pm

    “SJ, You’re more like a lightening rod her at times”

    SJ sees himself as the moderator of this board and never refrains from personally attacking and insulting posters he disagrees with, so is it any wonder that he’s a lightning rod.

    Heck, he even wished death on someone a week or so ago, telling them to drink poison or something.

  105. trisha - OPPC member who sees, hears, and knows all. 28 is on its way!!!!! March 27th, 2010 at 12:32 pm

    “Phil and Joba are completely different pitchers and people, so we shouldn’t necessarily expect a stint in the pen to effect them in the same way. That’s the only caveat I would place on the idea of the pen being a quick fix.”

    Really astute Betsy and those are the same things that are ruminating in my mind. Sometimes you need a different plan if you are dealing with different personalities.

    *******************

    Pat, see Betsy’s point. I’m wondering about the same thing.

    *******************

    Pat M I’m afraid that I have a social worker mentality and cannot pry that from my view of things. I do see it in play at times with players, even though it’s the majors. There is handholding that takes place, be it in the form of a manager-to-player confidence talk, extra BP with Kevin Long, one player bolstering another.

    By the way, here’s my latest NCAA tip. Tennessee. :)

    ****************************

    Pat M, puh-lease don’t make SJ any more sure of himself than he already is! (no offense SJ). Because he hit this one doesn’t mean he hits them all. Let me take you back to a situation last season when you and I were in concert – along with a number of other posters – and SJ was taking the extreme opposite view and was sure of his position. Things played out according to the way we thought it would. SJ is smarter than the average bear, yes, but also fallible.

    **********************

  106. tarantula March 27th, 2010 at 1:04 pm

    Which ruim do you ruiminate in? ;)

    When Andy doesn’t re-sign, then Joba loses his mentor, that is the year that he becomes a man…ooops a person lmao.

  107. tarantula March 27th, 2010 at 1:06 pm

    “By the way, here’s my latest NCAA tip. Tennessee.”

    A prediction a tad late? Bruce Pearl is going to finally get his due whether it’s this year or in the next few years. A great man oooops person…please don’t call the IRS and inform????

  108. randy l. March 27th, 2010 at 1:16 pm

    “Pat M, puh-lease don’t make SJ any more sure of himself than he already is! (no offense SJ). Because he hit this one doesn’t mean he hits them all.”

    sj44 would have to be a real dunce to have spent all the time he has spent close to the game over the years and not have a wealth of information and judgement about the game.

    no matter how many people want to think the opposite, there’s no replacement for experience. there is no short cut to learning the game. it takes time.

    sj44 has clearly paid his dues and while this doesn’t make him infallible, it definitely make his opinion worth paying attention to.

Leave a comment below


Sponsored by:
 

Search

    Advertisement

    Follow

    Mobile

    Read The LoHud Yankees Blog on the go by navigating to the blog on your smartphone or mobile device's browser. No apps or downloads are required.

Advertisement

Place an ad

Call (914) 694-3581