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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Notes from Sunday

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Mar 28, 2010 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Chad Gaudin has reportedly signed with the Oakland A’s. The Yankees second road trip of the year goes through Oakland, so they could see Gaudin pretty quickly. And now… the best example yet of how little spring training wins matter:

Tigers Yankees Baseball

That’s Eduardo Nunez in the AP picture on the right. He’s sprinting back to first base after turning around to run past Robinson Cano, who had just doubled. Cano’s base hit was called an out by third-base umpire Marty Foster, and that sent Nunez on his dash for first.

In the end, the umpires realized their mistake. As something of a compromise, they credited Cano with a single and put Nunez at second.

“Marty said with the rain he just didn’t see it,” Joe Girardi said. “I just (said), ‘Whatever, let’s just keep moving.’ It’s a judgment call I believe. I said, ‘You can call them both out as far as I’m concerned.’ Just keep going.”

The Yankees didn’t care about scoring the run or getting the hit, they just wanted the game to move forward so Andy Pettitte could get back on the mound.

Tigers Yankees Baseball

• Here’s an AP shot of Johnny Damon’s first at-bat this afternoon.

• The Yankees plan on Sergio Mitre pitching more than three innings when he starts a split-squad game on Tuesday. They want to keep him stretched out a little more than the other relievers. If someone gets hurt and the Yankees need an early spot starter, Girardi said it would likely be either Mitre or Alfredo Aceves.

• CC Sabathia will pitch the road split-squad game on Tuesday. “That’s where CC asked to go,” Girardi said. “I said, great, that works out good.”

• Finding a silver lining, Girardi said all the missed games might actually keep Andy Pettitte stronger for the regular season. “Sometimes these things are a blessing in disguise,” he said.

• Damaso Marte, Mariano Rivera and Boone Logan each pitched a scoreless inning before Pettitte got in the game this afternoon. The Yankees were leading 8-0 at the time, having scored six runs in the first inning.

• Pitchers for tomorrow night in Sarasota: Javier Vazquez, Joba Chamberlain, Chan Ho Park, Dave Robertson and Royce Ring.

• Position players not making the trip: Mike Rivera, Jorge Posada, Brett Gardner, Curtis Granderson and Nick Swisher. All of the Yankees infielders will be there.

• Ken Rosenthal previously reported that the Phillies looked into signing Chad Gaudin but decided against it.

Comments

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181 Responses to “Notes from Sunday”

  1. Corey. March 28th, 2010 at 7:37 pm

    Good for Gaudin.

  2. Rich in NJ March 28th, 2010 at 7:39 pm

    Repost:

    craw

    “That’s Yankee fans for you. They’re a spoiled bunch with high expectations for their players and management personnel.”

    I don’t think anyone who rooted for Horace Clarke, Jerry Kenney, and Danny Cater is a spoiled Yankee fan.

  3. whatever March 28th, 2010 at 7:40 pm

    Why didnt the Mets go after Gaudin? It just amazes me how player after player after available on the cheap and the Mets don’t consider them… are they really happy with their rotation?

  4. crawdaddy March 28th, 2010 at 7:41 pm

    “I don’t think anyone who rooted for Horace Clarke, Jerry Kenney, and Danny Cater is a spoiled Yankee fan.”

    What you rooted for almost 40 years ago has little bearing on what you are today.

  5. JK March 28th, 2010 at 7:44 pm

    Pelfrey bombed again today…

    You think the Mets would trade starting pitcher Pelfrey for reliever Joba to stick him in their rotation?

    1 injury to the Mets rotation and they are dead.

  6. crawdaddy March 28th, 2010 at 7:44 pm

    By the way, I wasn’t actually talking about you Rich, but since you answered anyway, you appear to take offense to my general comment about a segment of Yankee fans that exist on the internet.

  7. Rich in NJ March 28th, 2010 at 7:46 pm

    “What you rooted for almost 40 years ago has little bearing on what you are today.”

    How is that possible? Do you think that somehow I forgot George Santayana’s cautionary words?

    Given the way George ran the team in the ’80s, I no more expected to see another Yankees championship in my lifetime than I did a NY Knick championship.

    I savor each WS.

    Yet somehow if I make a reasoned criticism of something the Yankees do by merely holding them to the standard they set for themselves, I am spoiled?

    You cannot be serious.

  8. Rich in NJ March 28th, 2010 at 7:48 pm

    OK, craw. I just think even successful organizations make mistakes and can be improved.

  9. MTU(aka GBURL) March 28th, 2010 at 7:48 pm

    Joba Chamberlain reminds you most of :

    1 A boomerang

    2 A Rubic’s cube

    3 A swiss army knife

    4 A big block 454

    5 A yo-yo

    6 A rolaids tablet

    :)

  10. crawdaddy March 28th, 2010 at 7:48 pm

    Rich,

    You’re not the only Yankee fan critizing the Yankees so don’t assume I’m commenting about you.

  11. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 7:49 pm

    I’m inclined to agree with GF as to personal responsibility on the part of players. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them drink. As a parent, you can only encourage your children to do the right thing; you can’t think and act for them. It’s out of Eiland’s control when Phil, Joba and the other pitchers take the mound. Also, it’s not breaking news, but pitching is not an easy thing to do and developing young pitching is especially hard. Phil has had a fair bit of success in his major league career; most of that credit goes to Phil himself, but certainly Eiland gets some as well. The struggles he’s had have been due to injury; maybe Eiland should get some credit for making sure Phil didn’t change his delivery when he came back from those devastating leg injuries. If he did, perhaps Phil would have had arm problems. Joba’s issues stemmed initially from tendonities and then from stubbornness; none of that falls on Eiland. Again, however, Joba has had a fair bit of success in the big leagues; Dave must be doing something right.

  12. crawdaddy March 28th, 2010 at 7:50 pm

    “OK, craw. I just think even successful organizations make mistakes and can be improved.”

    I don’t think anybody disagrees with you there, but you’re getting kind of touchy.

  13. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 7:51 pm

    bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes
    March 28th, 2010 at 6:45 pm
    Phil The Thrill
    March 28th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
    Encinitan,
    My point is just that they aren’t an august body of intellects. In fact, they are three old players who want to win now. They think Joba in the pen means more wins now, so they favor.
    Oh, and I went to the #1 college, and we know the difference between insight and incite.
    Peace!
    Phil
    ====
    Hey Phil, I have 15 friends who went to “the number one college.” LMAO.
    You had a point re Mo/Jete and whomever else thinks Joba should be condemned to the bullpen for his mortal life, but the academic elitism is a crock.
    I, too, went to “the number one college”, and so, by the way, did my girlfriend, and we didn’t go to the same school. Like the dude you’re debating with, we both encountered many “morons” there at “the number one college.”

  14. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 7:52 pm

    bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes
    March 28th, 2010 at 6:57 pm
    Ultimately hopefully the yanks can have a bull pen of Mo, Hughes, Chamberlain, Robertson, Jose Ramirez, Brackman, and Garcia.
    ====

    Don’t forget about Betances. Now, there’s an eighth-inning arm if ever there was one.
    And how’s about Manny B for elite lefty specialist?

  15. realism at CitiField March 28th, 2010 at 7:54 pm

    whatever
    March 28th, 2010 at 7:40 pm
    Why didnt the Mets go after Gaudin? It just amazes me how player after player after available on the cheap and the Mets don’t consider them… are they really happy with their rotation?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Omar Minaya noticed that his name wasn’t Chadero Gaudinez. It made no difference to Billy Beane in Oakland.

  16. Rich in NJ March 28th, 2010 at 7:54 pm

    “I don’t think anybody disagrees with you there, but you’re getting kind of touchy.”

    I’ll cop to it. My bad.

  17. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 7:56 pm

    Nick in SF in Healdsburg
    March 28th, 2010 at 2:31 pm
    Where’s bodhi in this?
    Facts are simple and facts a straight
    Facts are lazy and facts are late
    Facts all come with points of view
    Facts don’t do what I want them to
    – Talking Heads
    ——

    LOL.

    My current position remains the same.

    “Say something once, why say it again?”

  18. MTU(aka GBURL) March 28th, 2010 at 8:01 pm

    Bohdi-

    I think you know my POV on starters don’t you ? :)

  19. GreenBeret7 March 28th, 2010 at 8:03 pm

    How did Steinbrenner run the Yankees in the ’80s? They seemed to do well enough to be the winningest team of the 80s. Because they didn’t win a WS title? yes he meddled too much, but, he never stopped trying to bring in the best players available. His biggest mistake was firing Howser after 1980. Lemon made a ton of mistakes in the WS. though, given the issues in his private life, it’s understandable. Pulling T. John with a 1-1 tie after four innings and the continued use of George Frazier cost NYY a WS title. Steinbrenner might have been a pain to those that dealt with him, but, there was nothing wrong with his desire to win at all costs.

  20. Rich in NJ March 28th, 2010 at 8:07 pm

    “How did Steinbrenner run the Yankees in the ’80s? They seemed to do well enough to be the winningest team of the 80s.”

    Fred McGriff for Dale Murray.

    Doug Drabek for Rick Rhoden.

    Willie McGee for Bob Sykes.

    George used to repeat that “most wins” thing all the time. It was laughable because nothing short of winning the WS every mattered to him, and the reason they didn’t win was his impetuous, short-sighed moves, three of which I listed above.

  21. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 28th, 2010 at 8:08 pm

    Rich in NJ -
    Your response to me was a bit harsh, I think.
    The thing of it is, I have also had the thought that Eiland was specifically brought up to oversee the development of the “Three Caballeros” or whatever it was they were called (Generation Trey?).
    But unlike a lot of people, I have learned to go with the flow. The best laid plans, and all.
    There’s only so much a coach can do, because ultimately, he can’t go out and do the job and he can’t really get into the head of the players. Also, it does seem that the transition from minors to majors is such that you never really know how a particular player is going to react in terms of performance.
    But I wasn’t here all day and I came back and read the threads, and when you do it like that, it’s quite an experience, let me tell you. The overall feeling I got was, how in the heck have the Yankees managed to accomplish anything at all, much less a World Championship, with such poor coaching, etc., etc.
    And yes, if you were all of a sudden plunked down into the middle of this blog, one would think the Yankees hadn’t won in 2009 based on most of the posts today and yesterday.
    Playing catch-up isn’t pretty.

  22. Yanksfan24 March 28th, 2010 at 8:12 pm

    Who the heck is Mike Rivera? What position? Make believe?

  23. Rich in NJ March 28th, 2010 at 8:12 pm

    Doreen

    I think questioning any fan that offers reasoned criticism is harsh.

    You’re free to “go with the flow.” I want to develop starting pitchers from within.

    The Yankees win because the homegrown core keeps on keeping on, and because they also make good decisions, but we would be naive to think the huge payroll advantage doesn’t play a significant role.

    I want to see the next homegrown core being put in place.

    That’s the fulcrum on which my criticism turns.

  24. GreenBeret7 March 28th, 2010 at 8:12 pm

    Betances will be just fine in the rotation in Tampa once he’s finished rehabbing. I think that the surgery came as no surprise to a lot of people, only that it took this long to happen. Fortunately, it wasn’t ligament transplant, and only relocation. He should recover nicely and much sooner than most. He’s electric considering the elbow issues that he pitched with.

    Hard to think where Brackman fits in until the results are in after this season. Same with Garcia. He could be over the constant issues or he could become Steve Karsay revisited.

  25. Joe from Long Island March 28th, 2010 at 8:19 pm

    Hi, GB – How you doing tonight?

  26. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 28th, 2010 at 8:19 pm

    Rich in NJ -

    And I wasn’t reacting to one specific criticism, but an overall tone of the posts.

    There is ALWAYS room for improvement. The disagreement comes, I suppose, in the details of what makes for improvement.

    I’d say, overall, Eiland is okay. Not overly good, not overly bad.

    If one was to suppose that Eiland’s only job on promotion was to develop Joba as a starter, then one could reasonably say he didn’t do such a great job. But there’s Joba himself and how he responded or did not respond to coaching. Still, I don’t think the door is shut on Joba as a starter; and if Joba ends up being an elite reliever, do I really care that he’s not starting?

    If he was going to be an elite starter, then yes, I am disappointed, and financially, the Yankees don’t get the best of the deal. But if Joba was going to be a so-so starter, then, I guess I’m happy he’s an elite starter.

    But as I said, Joba is young enough (and maybe I’m naive enough) for me to believe the book is not closed and I’m willing to wait and see. Rome wasn’t built in a day. And NY is a bear to develop players in these days. Those 1996-2000 years, not to mention the playoff finishes through 2007, have served to make this a very toxic environment for developing players, specifically pitchers, on the job.

  27. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 28th, 2010 at 8:21 pm

    I wish there was an edit button. It should have read ” But if Joba was going to be a so-so starter, then I guess I’m happy he’s an elite reliever.”

  28. Erica - always OPPC - Sesame Street Mafia and GTLU supporter March 28th, 2010 at 8:25 pm

    Chad-

    Thanks for the Johnny Damon picture.

    You did good! ;-)

  29. Rich in NJ March 28th, 2010 at 8:25 pm

    Doreen

    OK, it’s hard to know what someone is responding to after one posts on the same topic.

  30. MTU(aka GBURL) March 28th, 2010 at 8:26 pm

    Developing a young starter takes time.

    There are very few Tim Lincecum’s out there.

    Most guys take years to turn into ML starters, and most struggle, regressing and progressing along the way to success.

    There are numerous examples of the above.

    If the Yankees want a cadre of young starters to fill out their rotation then that’s what it’s gonna take.

    Patience.

    There are no shortcuts and no tricks.

    Can the Yanks pull that off in the white hot heat of the AL east and with a mission statement to win it all every year ?

    Maybe they try to do it by backfilling the rotation from the #5 slot on up.

    Maybe gaining confidence out of the pen is part of the program.

    Maybe each year’s needs decides things.

    Time will tell what the plan is or isn’t.

  31. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 28th, 2010 at 8:27 pm

    Rich in NJ -

    I sure understand that.

  32. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 28th, 2010 at 8:28 pm

    Does anyone else have an issue with Eiland’s public statements and the way he has handled his player’s in the media thus far?

  33. Erica - always OPPC - Sesame Street Mafia and GTLU supporter March 28th, 2010 at 8:28 pm

    Doreen-

    Great minds sure do think alike!!!

    Btw- we were going in total opposite directions this afternoon. I went from Jersey to Long Island and you went from Li to Jersey.

    Is there anything worse than the Staten Island Expressway?

  34. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 28th, 2010 at 8:30 pm

    Erica -

    I got lucky in SI today. My delays were all in Queens/Bklyn. :lol:

    But generally speaking – NO – there is nothing worse than the SIE. :)

  35. Rich in NJ March 28th, 2010 at 8:31 pm

    LGY

    Do you have a link to those comments? I missed them.

  36. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 28th, 2010 at 8:31 pm

    LGY =

    In general, I wish coaches wouldn’t speak at all. :)

  37. Erica - always OPPC - Sesame Street Mafia and GTLU supporter March 28th, 2010 at 8:32 pm

    Doreen – 2010 GTLU
    March 28th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
    Erica -

    I got lucky in SI today. My delays were all in Queens/Bklyn.

    But generally speaking – NO – there is nothing worse than the SIE.

    *************

    I noticed the Belt was not moving at all Westbound this afternoon. I was just glad the eastbound side was.

  38. pat March 28th, 2010 at 8:32 pm

    Regardless of what side you fall on, wasn’t it nice that for a few hours someone made a definitive statement about Joba and tried to end the debate?

  39. GreenBeret7 March 28th, 2010 at 8:34 pm

    Rich in NJ
    March 28th, 2010 at 8:07 pm
    “How did Steinbrenner run the Yankees in the ’80s? They seemed to do well enough to be the winningest team of the 80s.”

    Fred McGriff for Dale Murray.

    Doug Drabek for Rick Rhoden.

    Willie McGee for Bob Sykes.

    George used to repeat that “most wins” thing all the time. It was laughable because nothing short of winning the WS every mattered to him, and the reason they didn’t win was his impetuous, short-sighed moves, three of which I listed above.

    ————————————————————

    The Yanks needed bullpen help and McGriff was a Rookie League 1st baseman. I doubt that he was going to move Mattingly off of 1st base, do you? Of course, they would have kepy him if they had your ability to see 7 years into the future.

    Rhoden was a good pitcher for NYY and they needed pitching and didn’t feel they could wait on Drabek.

    Why the settled on sykes, I don’t know, but, BcGee was starting his 6th pro season and no place to play in the Yankee outfield with Winfield and Mumphrey and NYY just signing Steve Kemp. McGee wasn’t all that special in the minors, either.

    Since we’re hammering him for bad decisions, how about the good ones, like Lyle for Cater, Nettles, Chambliss and Tidrow for nothing….Hunter, Jackson, turning Murcer into Rivers and Figueroa, Winfield….O’Neill, Martinez, Clemens….getting Rodriguez.

  40. Jerkface March 28th, 2010 at 8:35 pm

    I do, but I already said that.

  41. Jerkface March 28th, 2010 at 8:36 pm

    Coaches to me, need to set a more positive tone and if they speak with the media it should probably only relate to the work they’re doing/the work the players are putting in.

    I didn’t hear Kevin Long suggesting Cano can’t hit 5th.

  42. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 8:36 pm

    MTU(aka GBURL)
    March 28th, 2010 at 8:01 pm
    Bohdi-
    I think you know my POV on starters don’t you ?
    =====

    Yes, I think so.

    As I’ve said before, I can’t get the Righetti business out of my mind.

    He actually had a sign taped to his locker: “I’m confused.” If Joba did this, I’d be on the top step of the dugout, applauding.

  43. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 28th, 2010 at 8:36 pm

    Sorry. I should have said other than Jerkface b/c I did see you say that

  44. Rich in NJ March 28th, 2010 at 8:38 pm

    How could I forget Jay Buhner for Ken Phelps?

    My apologies to Frank Costanza.

  45. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 28th, 2010 at 8:38 pm

    Rich,

    Which comments? About Wang? I have been very bothered by Eiland’s comments on several occasions and in regard to several players.

  46. MTU(aka GBURL) March 28th, 2010 at 8:39 pm

    Pat-

    “Regardless of what side you fall on, wasn’t it nice that for a few hours someone made a definitive statement about Joba and tried to end the debate?”

    Opinions are like you know what.

    Guess he’s entitled to his version of reality even if it’s wrong.

    And his spouting it didn’t settle anything even for a nanosecond. ;)

  47. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 8:39 pm

    Nope, I don’t remember Eiland saying anything that upset me and don’t get why he’s getting criticized for the job he’s done.

  48. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 8:42 pm

    I still don’t get why Eiland is being damned with faint praise for being merely an “OK” pitching coach.

  49. MTU(aka GBURL) March 28th, 2010 at 8:43 pm

    Bohdi-

    “He actually had a sign taped to his locker: “I’m confused.” If Joba did this, I’d be on the top step of the dugout, applauding.”

    Cash has said the following.

    Joba’s development plan is complete.

    Whatever will be will be.

    What’s your take on the meaning of that ?

  50. GreenBeret7 March 28th, 2010 at 8:43 pm

    Doing fine, today, Joe. Thanks for asking. How are things going up your way? Hope all is going well for you. I wanted to stay off the board today, because I figured (and correctly so) that it was the same ones whining about the Hughes/Chamberlain decision, using the same stale arguements.

    I see that Cashman and Eiland are also targets, today.

  51. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 28th, 2010 at 8:43 pm

    “In general, I wish coaches wouldn’t speak at all.”

    —————————–

    I think Long’s relationship with the media has been fantastic. He always finds a way to be positive, talk up his player, and always has their back in the face of criticism. This morning he had some very good things to say about Gardner. I would imagine Gardner feels great having his coach willing to go on record saying how good he can be.

    There is obviously a time and a place for criticism/tough love but I do not think the media is the place for that when you are a coach.

    If Granderson struggles against LHP next year I cannot imagine under any circumstance Long saying something like “well, we have worked on it, so it is his job to get it done on the field.” Eiland on the other hand…

  52. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 8:45 pm

    LGY – Child Prodigy/GB7′s Bestest Buddy
    March 28th, 2010 at 8:28 pm
    Does anyone else have an issue with Eiland’s public statements and the way he has handled his player’s in the media thus far?
    ====

    I can’t remember precisely, but I do recall how defensive he was re Wang’s issues. Kept the rhetoric going that implied his hands were clean of the mess.

    I don’t like making sweeping statements about these guys (and I’m sure you’re not doing that, either, just reacting to what you’ve actually heard him say) – and I also admit I don’t hang onto every word uttered, because there’s just so much fluff and BS from players and management alike.

    I admit I am also way too disgusted with Joba’s handling to care a whit what Cashman or anyone else has to say. It did occur to me that Cashman, with the “he’s a starter in the bullpen” may be trying to pre-empt the avalanche of criticism (mission: unsuccessful so far) and have it both ways.

    He may not want to be seen as having sold out on Joba the Starter. There’s also the possibility that Cashman indeed sees Joba as being restored to the rotation at some point, and there was a battle “lost”, a compromise struck, or even a reluctant concession made that he doesn’t consider a life sentence.

    But in truth, I am,, as I say, too disgusted to try and read between the lines.

  53. m March 28th, 2010 at 8:45 pm

    So, the main beef with with Eiland is that he failed Joba and Wang? That’s fair enough.

    But I don’t think he’s done anything egregious. Like he hasn’t blown out anyone’s shoulder or done turned anyone into D-train-wreck.

  54. SJ44 March 28th, 2010 at 8:46 pm

    Just because you disagree with him doesn’t make him wrong MTU.

  55. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 8:46 pm

    Hey GB – glad you’re doing well. Cash isn’t the target, but Eiland is. Since I don’t think he’s going anywhere, we’ll just have to deal with the complaints.

  56. Rich in NJ March 28th, 2010 at 8:47 pm

    “The Yanks needed bullpen help and McGriff was a Rookie League 1st baseman. I doubt that he was going to move Mattingly off of 1st base, do you? Of course, they would have kepy him if they had your ability to see 7 years into the future.”

    At the time, McGriff was considered to be the only mL prospect in baseball with 50 HR potential I don’t trade that for a fungible reliever. He could have DH’d but even if you want to trade him, let him develop and get more for him.

    “Rhoden was a good pitcher for NYY and they needed pitching and didn’t feel they could wait on Drabek.”

    Therein lies the problem. Winning now usually means never winning.

    I read at the time of the trade that Rhoden’s fastball velo had already started to decline.

    One can come up with a rationale for almost every move, but if this type of thinking was allowed to hold the day in the early ’90s, we would have traded Bernie, Posada, and Mo.

    George tried, but Stick lied to him and said there was no interest.

    Too bad no GM had the guts to do the same thing in the ’80s.

    “Since we’re hammering him for bad decisions, how about the good ones, like Lyle for Cater, Nettles, Chambliss and Tidrow for nothing….Hunter, Jackson, turning Murcer into Rivers and Figueroa, Winfield….O’Neill, Martinez, Clemens….getting Rodriguez”

    Yes, hiring Gabe Paul was a good move, but why did he leave? Because he got tired of George usurping his power.

    As Stick has pointed out, George had already mellowed by the mid-90s. But yes, Stick was a great GM, and Watson made some good moves, as has Cash.

  57. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 8:48 pm

    MTU,

    See post to LGY.

    It’s like Dylan says:

    “I’m closin’ the book, on the pages in the text
    “And I don’t really care, what happens next.”

  58. pat March 28th, 2010 at 8:48 pm

    “Opinions are like you know what.”

    Butts. Everyone has one and some peoples are bigger than others.

  59. MTU(aka GBURL) March 28th, 2010 at 8:49 pm

    SJ-

    I can’t disagree with what I do not fully understand can I ?

    Do that mean that Cash considers Joba’s future out of his hands now ?

    What is your take on what he means ?

  60. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 8:50 pm

    So Bodh, you’re ticked off at Cash because Phil had the temerity to work his behind off to improve to the point where he is now considered ahead of Joba as a starter? Joba was not entitled to the #5 spot. Phil is a very talented kid who earned the starting nod.

  61. Rob NY March 28th, 2010 at 8:50 pm

    Quick comment on the Staten Island Expressway (as a former island native): It is the single worst road I’ve ever driven on. You can drive from south Florida to Elizabeth, NJ and cruise at an average speed of 60 mph. Pay the toll at the Goethals bridge and you will sit for a minimum of 25 minutes.
    /rant

    To be relevant: Joba Sucks, Eiland Sucks, Cashman Sucks, Joe Girardi Sucks, and Brett Garner’s grittines factor outweighs his ability to hit the baseball with any authority. That should about cover it.

  62. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    Cash did NOT sell out Joba as a starter. When will Joba ever have to take responsibility for his own issues last year?

  63. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    M, exactly how has Eiland failed Joba? I don’t believe he failed Wang, but I refuse to talk about Wang anymore.

  64. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 28th, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    LGY -

    No question Long’s way of dealing with these things is one reason why his hitters respect him so much.

    When he does speak to the media, the general feeling one is left with is at least neutral, and even positive.

    Eiland doesn’t seem to have that same gift; but all the same, I’m not particulary bothered, except, as I said, the less said in general, the better.

    Eiland is higher profile, because of the Hughes/Joba stuff, than he really ought to be.

  65. Rich in NJ March 28th, 2010 at 8:52 pm

    “Butts. Everyone has one and some peoples are bigger than others.”

    When I was in college, I had a summer job at Oxford Univ. Press’s warehouse, and some lifer there supposedly didn’t have a butt. I can’t personally say either way.

  66. m March 28th, 2010 at 8:52 pm

    Did we find someone who feels that Joba deserves/earned the 5th spot?!

  67. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 8:55 pm

    Doreen, I’m not sure I understand why you think Eiland is merely ok and why he’s higher profile than he ought to be. I really don’t get what he’s done wrong, but I guess different strokes for different folks. IMO, people don’t want to blame the players, so they blame the coaches.

  68. m March 28th, 2010 at 8:55 pm

    Betsy,

    I’m not agreeing with them. But it’s fair enough if they want to blame Eiland for that.

    Everyone’s entitled to their opinion. Because it’s just that. Their opinion.

  69. MTU(aka GBURL) March 28th, 2010 at 8:55 pm

    Bohdi-

    I could understand the desire to move on but I do think you care. :)

  70. becca March 28th, 2010 at 8:55 pm

    “Did we find someone who feels that Joba deserves/earned the 5th spot?!”

    Me, and it’s nothing against Hughes. It’s just because he has no innings limit and at some point you just have to let these kids fly, and I don’t think the org should shuttle people between the pen and the starting rotation over and over. I can understand that Joba has all kinds of mechanical issues apparently and I wish he would go to AAA if he’s not starting, but that’s not going to happen.

  71. Nick in SF in Larkspur March 28th, 2010 at 8:56 pm

    m, yellow flag for 7:49 pm post: sarcastic rejoinder without advancing an underlying argument.

    Sorry, I don’t make the rules, I just enforce ‘em.

  72. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 28th, 2010 at 8:57 pm

    In 3 years the most success Eiland has had with one player is Nick Swisher. :lol:

    (not exactly sure if I am kidding)

  73. m March 28th, 2010 at 8:58 pm

    link? :?

  74. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 8:59 pm

    M, of course people are entitled to their opinion. I think it’s unfair to blame Eiland, but what are you going to do? I don’t think he’s going anywhere.

  75. m March 28th, 2010 at 9:01 pm

    becca,

    Sorry! Apologies! I was actually teasing someone else.

    But I agree, what’s the harm of sending Joba to AAA if the Yankees see him as a starter? Oh, wait…

  76. Mike March 28th, 2010 at 9:01 pm

    Eliand has to get blame for Joba. He is the one who put him on that ridiculous pitch schedule from August on.

    He had a 3.58 ERA through July. Eliand starts to toy with his schedule, and what happens? 7+ ERA the rest of the way.

  77. Nick in SF in Larkspur March 28th, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    http://yankees.lhblogs.com/201.....nt-1269162

    Dinner time!

  78. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 28th, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    Eiland has had a lot of success with young guys in the bullpen. Maybe he is better suited to be the bullpen coach :(

  79. pat March 28th, 2010 at 9:02 pm

    Rich

    You took a cute little saying and turned it into a medical mystery that I choose to have no opinion on. :wink:

    If today’s game doesn’t count, does that mean Johnny’s standing ovation doesn’t count either?

  80. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 9:03 pm

    Betsy – Romine wasn’t built in a day
    March 28th, 2010 at 8:50 pm
    So Bodh, you’re ticked off at Cash because Phil had the temerity to work his behind off to improve to the point where he is now considered ahead of Joba as a starter? Joba was not entitled to the #5 spot. Phil is a very talented kid who earned the starting nod.
    ===

    Betsy,

    With all due respect, I’ve said nothing of the kind, and I think it’s fair to say that no one could glean your conclusion from my posts.

  81. lemon March 28th, 2010 at 9:03 pm

    Joba should have gotten the 5th spot because he was in the rotation last year and all the hard work they went through to manage his innings

    They had no reason to even have a competition. Let the guy throw 200 innings before deciding he is a reliever

  82. Mike March 28th, 2010 at 9:04 pm

    Well, who gets blame for bringing up Wang in the middle of his rehab just because we needed a long reliever?

  83. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 9:04 pm

    Mike
    March 28th, 2010 at 9:01 pm
    Eliand has to get blame for Joba. He is the one who put him on that ridiculous pitch schedule from August on.
    ====

    I have to say, one of the most bizarre things I have ever witnessed in all my years watching baseball, which dates to about 1963.

  84. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 28th, 2010 at 9:05 pm

    Betsy -

    I don’t think Eiland’s done anything wrong.

    As far as getting too much exposure, I think when he speaks, or when he’s quoted in the media, he generally doesn’t come off very favorably. I don’t put too much stock in this, by the way. But I mean that he gets an awful lot of the credit/blame for the young pitchers. My feeling is that coaching only goes so far, and at some point it is up to the particular player to execute.

    I think I said he isn’t bad, but I don’t think he’s an extraordinary pitching coach, either. He’s fine. I thought he was brought up at the time he was specifically because of his handle on IPK/Hughes/Joba. Perhaps he was, perhaps it wasn’t the enitirety of the situation. But I did come to realize that once these guys hit the Majors, the scene changes. A lot.

  85. Sevrx March 28th, 2010 at 9:06 pm

    Joba lost the competition and as a result, he is going to the pen.

    AAA is not an option.

  86. GreenBeret7 March 28th, 2010 at 9:07 pm

    I sit here and laugh at the ones that all bad decisions are/were made by GMS and everyone else made the decisions. If he had a problem in trusting someone, it was in trusting Billy Martin to interfere with player personnel decisions. It was Martin that wanted to unload Guidry for being “Gutless”. It was Martin that destroyed every pitching staff he came in contact with. It was Martin that left his pitchers in the care of another drunk in art Fowler. If Fowler didn’t like the player or pitcher…Martin didn’t like him.

    As brilliant a game tactician as Martin was, he should never have been allowed to make decisions on players. Martin was Steinbrenner’s biggest mistake.

  87. Aardvark March 28th, 2010 at 9:08 pm

    When you have CC, AJ, Andy, MO, and 2 young promising kids, how great of a pitching coach do you need to be? CC doesn’t need a pitching coach, either does AJ, or Andy or MO. These guys were doing it before Eliand.

    Let’s not act like this guy is John Farrell or Dave Duncan. Eliand is an OK pitching coach blessed with talent so he doesn’t have to do anything.

    His one responsibility was Joba, and he failed to put him in the best position to succeed.

  88. Rich in NJ March 28th, 2010 at 9:08 pm

    pat

    IOW, It was TMI. ;)

  89. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 9:10 pm

    Bodh, then I don’t understand why you are so angry at Cashman.

  90. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 9:11 pm

    MTU(aka GBURL)
    March 28th, 2010 at 8:55 pm
    Bohdi-
    I could understand the desire to move on but I do think you care.
    ===

    Actually, I don’t. I don’t care to listen the the doublespeak and damage control from the Yankees. You have to understand, not only am I disgusted, I covered this stuff for 10 years. I probably have a different response to rhetoric.

    Also consider this: Cashman never says ANYTHING. So why so adamant on pronouncing Joba a symbolic “starter” who happens to be in the bullpen this year? That’s a calculated statement – one which I don’t care to interpret, other than what I’ve already said.

    I am happy to hear your views on it, however. I’m just tired of hearing the same voices sing the same tune (including my own; my position in here on this has been expressed often enough).

  91. Joe from Long Island March 28th, 2010 at 9:11 pm

    I’m OK, thanks. It’s been chilly and rainy today, so I spent the day inside with the dog, doing some chores, though I did brave the elements long enough to grill some chicken for dinner. I’ve been reading Murcer’s book, “Yankee for Life” tonight. It’s a nice enough read for the evening. Correct prediction about comments today.

  92. Spiderman March 28th, 2010 at 9:12 pm

    Funny how people are blaming Joba for his bad August/September last year. NOBODY can pitch well under those conditions.

    Posada was on record saying how tough it would be for anyone to succeed when pitching irregularly like that. Every baseball expert, past player, etc. was laughing at how Joba was handled last year and making jokes about it. And they had every right to – it was absurd.

    Put Hughes under those conditions and let’s see if the results are any different.

  93. m March 28th, 2010 at 9:13 pm

    Joba was not Eiland’s sole responsibiity.

  94. Alex March 28th, 2010 at 9:14 pm

    “Also consider this: Cashman never says ANYTHING. So why so adamant on pronouncing Joba a symbolic “starter” who happens to be in the bullpen this year? ”

    Because that is his mode of damage control. He doesn’t want people to think he is a failed starter.

  95. Rich in NJ March 28th, 2010 at 9:15 pm

    “I sit here and laugh at the ones that all bad decisions are/were made by GMS and everyone else made the decisions. ”

    I laugh at your defense of the indefensible.

    George was different guy when he first took over the team than he was after the Yankees lost the 1981 WS, after which George apologized to NY. He became ridiculously impatient, and even more maniacal in his quest for winning. Did trading Rickey Henderson for what they got back make sense? Did treating Winfield the way he treated him make sense? It was all so bizarre.

    The guy’s genius is best seen in how he built the brand, not so much in his day to day player personnel decisions from the ’80s and beyond.

    George enabled Martin’s alcoholism with his serial hirings and firings, but I really don’t want to discuss that.

  96. yanksince57 - JESUS H MONTERO! March 28th, 2010 at 9:15 pm

    i ask our resident degenerate gamblers :) what are the odds this blog will still be parsing the great pitching conspiracy of 2010 one hour after we win the WS?

  97. Yanks 77 March 28th, 2010 at 9:16 pm

    bod,

    When it comes to this, Cash is full of it. Eppler and Eliand’s comments just further that theory. Those guys are not just talking about of their rear-end… where there is smoke….

    The fact that Cash has to be so adamant is more of a form of damage control than it is his true beliefs.

  98. MTU(aka GBURL) March 28th, 2010 at 9:17 pm

    m-

    “Joba was not Eiland’s sole responsibiity.”

    I think it was a decision made be several people in consultation with each other so I agree.

  99. Devin March 28th, 2010 at 9:19 pm

    Why should Eliand get credit for AJ?

    Did he get him to finally pitch up to his stuff for once in his life? The guy almost walked 100 guys and and we should give Eliand credit?

    CC was an ace before Eliand got there. Mike Maddux was the one who was there when CC was going on short rest and throwing all those complete games… now there is a real pitching coach.

  100. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 9:20 pm

    Doreen, I don’t think Eiland gets any more credit than any other pitching coach. Reasonable minds can disagree as to his merits (or anyone else’s for that matter).

  101. m March 28th, 2010 at 9:20 pm

    mtu,

    No, you read that wrong. I didn’t say, “Joba was not solely responsible for Joba’s [perceived failure].”

    I meant only that Eiland had more responsiblities than just dealing with Joba.

  102. Glenn March 28th, 2010 at 9:21 pm

    Bottom line – If the Yanks believed in Joba the starter, they would have given him the 5th spot in the rotation. They didn’t, end of story.

  103. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 28th, 2010 at 9:21 pm

    Eiland should not get any credit for AJ. He took a step back from 08 to 09.

  104. MTU(aka GBURL) March 28th, 2010 at 9:22 pm

    m-
    sorry. My bad.

  105. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 9:22 pm

    So Phil gets trashed when he struggles, and BOY did he get trashed (he was called overrated, a bust, everything under the sun), but Joba gets a complete pass. Interesting.

  106. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 9:23 pm

    Eiland shouldn’t get credit for anything apparently. Ok, whatever.

  107. Giuseppe Franco March 28th, 2010 at 9:23 pm

    I’m one of those who thinks the handling of Joba last season was atrocious. It’s hard to see any kid perform with those kinds of handcuffs on him in the second half.

    The organization now obviously agrees and doesn’t want to put Hughes through the same predicament regarding his innings cap. They are going to “learn from last season” and take a different approach with him. They’ve said that several times this spring.

    My biggest problem with the organization is they presumably pulled the plug way too early on Joba the Starter after all the ridiculous rules they made last season to keep his innings in check. Now they are sticking back in the pen, which essentially means they went through all that trouble for nothing.

    I’m not going to speak for guys like Bodh and CB on this issue, but I think that’s the crux of the matter that has them “disgusted” with Cash and the rest of the gang regarding Joba’s role.

    Bodh is certainly not alone because I share that disgust as well.

    I’m just so sick of talking about this issue. It’s been beaten harder than Pete Abe with his nauseating and tiresome A-Rod cheap shots of yesteryear.

  108. danny dc March 28th, 2010 at 9:23 pm

    Why don;t the pitchers rave about dave eliand the way they rave about kevin long?

    the answer: long actually improves the team, eliand doesn’t.

  109. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 9:24 pm

    No, that’s not the bottom line. Why is this always about Joba? Phil is a terrific talent. He worked hard and earned the #5 spot.

  110. thenextandykosco March 28th, 2010 at 9:24 pm

    In this thread, it has been suggested more than once that George Steinbrenner should be credited with the wise acquisitions of Sparky Lyle and Graig Nettles. Although Steinbrenner deserves credit for many things, I must disagree. Sparky Lyle was acquired on 3/22/1972. Graig Nettles was acquired on 11/27/1972. George Steinbrenner did not acquire an ownership interest in the Yankees until 1/3/1973.

  111. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 28th, 2010 at 9:25 pm

    Betsy -

    I don’t think we’re clicking here. I am not anti-Eiland. :)

  112. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 28th, 2010 at 9:26 pm

    Betsy,

    What should Eiland get credit for in regard to Burnett last year?

  113. Rice March 28th, 2010 at 9:26 pm

    “So Phil gets trashed when he struggles, and BOY did he get trashed (he was called overrated, a bust, everything under the sun), but Joba gets a complete pass. Interesting.”

    Honest question – if they made Hughes pitch on that same schedule they made Joba pitch under… would you be OK with it? Would you be happy they based their evaluations off that absurd schedule and yanked a rotation spot from him the next year because of the results when pitching on irregular rest?

  114. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 9:26 pm

    I don’t recall CB being disgusted by Cashman.

    GF, I guess I don’t understand why Phil’s development should be secondary to Joba’s. Why should Phil be stuck in the pen for a 2nd year in a row, especially when he made significant improvement to his repertoire?

  115. Spiderman March 28th, 2010 at 9:26 pm

    “What should Eiland get credit for in regard to Burnett last year?”

    For getting him to lead the league in walks and wild pitches, duh :D

  116. Giuseppe Franco March 28th, 2010 at 9:27 pm

    Betsy – Romine wasn’t built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 9:22 pm

    So Phil gets trashed when he struggles, and BOY did he get trashed (he was called overrated, a bust, everything under the sun), but Joba gets a complete pass. Interesting.

    —————

    How is Joba getting a pass?

    People have trashed Joba and his character just as much if not more than they ever did to Hughes.

    Lohudders (and fly by nighters) rip Joba almost everyday on this blog.

  117. Rich in NJ March 28th, 2010 at 9:27 pm

    “Bottom line – If the Yanks believed in Joba the starter, they would have given him the 5th spot in the rotation. They didn’t, end of story.”

    That’s not true. They made the decision based on what they believe will further their chances of winning this year, not necessarily in the future.

    So the story isn’t over.

  118. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 9:28 pm

    Doreen, we still disagree. I never said you were anti-Eiland, but you think he’s fine/ok and I think he’s better than that. I don’t feel like going round and round on Eiland all night as I’m not going to change my mind and others aren’t going to change theirs. That’s why I said different strokes for different folks.

  119. Ford 03 March 28th, 2010 at 9:28 pm

    Joba was given a chance to earn a spot in the rotation, and he lost his spot.

    Not like they didn’t give him a chance. They gave him a chance but he didn’t run with it.

  120. Betsy - Romine wasn't built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 9:30 pm

    GF, disagree. You know that Phil was trashed as an overrated bum while here everyone wants to give him a total pass for last year and blame Eiland instead. Yes, I do see people criticizing Joba – definitely, but no, I disagree it’s the to the extent that Phil was.

    The theme since Phil got the #5 spot was that Joba got jobbed by the Yankees, the implication being that Phil didn’t earn it. I think fans are simply more invested in Joba as a starter than they are as Phil.

  121. Blank Check March 28th, 2010 at 9:30 pm

    I’m not so sure there wouldn’t have been a Vazquez trade even if Joba was good.

    We got him insanely cheap. I don’t want to hear about a Low-A pitcher. If Cash had the opportunity to get a talent like that for a 4th OFer, I bet you he’d do it again and would have had Hughes as the 6th starter or in the pen.

    Cashman himself said that his worry about the innings total from last year and wanting to preserve those guys and have insurance was big consideration.

  122. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 28th, 2010 at 9:31 pm

    Betsy,

    What has Eiland done that makes you feel he is “better than that?”

  123. MTU(aka GBURL) March 28th, 2010 at 9:31 pm

    Rich-

    “So the story isn’t over.”

    What makes you so sure that isn’t the case ?

    Maybe the Yankee brass have decided that Joba belongs in the pen.

    Do you believe that if Joba does well this year that he absolutely will get another shot to start ?

  124. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 9:32 pm

    Betsy – Romine wasn’t built in a day
    March 28th, 2010 at 9:10 pm
    Bodh, then I don’t understand why you are so angry at Cashman.
    ===

    Betsy,

    I am not “angry” at Cashman.

    I am angry at my mother’s surgeon for trying to push radiation on her. I am angry when I see injustice or cruelty.

    I was disappointed and yes, disgusted, with the whole “competition” ruse from the get-go.

    I have stated my feelings on here clearly:

    I would not have traded for Vazquez. (Before the team shills chime in that he’s become a much better pitcher, which I can plainly see with my own eyes, it has nothing to do with Javy’s competence).

    I would have put Joba and Hughes in this year’s rotation.

    There was ample backup if one of them stumbled too dramatically. People on here who bring up Hughes/Kennedy in 2008 as having “failed” conveniently omit that neither had the body of work in the majors that either current Hughes or Chamberlain had going into this season, and that neither Kennedy or Hughes was being integrated as the fourth and fifth starters.

    My thought was, we won the WS, that gives us a grace year to develope the two in the rotation. Instead, because they were understandably concerned about the load on the front 3 and bullpen, they elected to go extremely conservative and trade for a No. 4 starter.

    That would not have been my choice.

    But that aside, it surely would have been reasonable to develop Joba (as the “loser”) in AAA to start the season and then promote him to join the bullpen later in the year.

    Failing that, with an eye on developing him as a future starter, they might have made him a longman/swingman (displacing, admittedly, Aceves in the role and causing some discomfort; but we are talking about a starting pitcher who has ALREADY demonstrated some stunning success as such; an arm worth enduring some discomfort and juggling for development’s sake).

    I am sure the Yankees think they are securing the BP for the stretch run and postseason, already having Joba entrenched and re-introducing Hughes to relief late in the season for a shut-down BP for the playoffs.

    That’s a fine strategy, if you’re going year-to-year and consider the long term on the back burner. I also understand the need to protect Rivera; but what I don’t buy is that a year of Chamberlain’s development needs to be sacrificed for such protection. We have a lot of capable arms.

    Just FYI, so I don’t have to be subjected to your admirable, ardent Hughes fandom at my expense, I have written to both Cashman and Girardi declaring either “losing” the fifth spot and either, as a consequence, being relegated to short relief, as a poor course of action for either’s future as a starter.

    I’m sorry if that is inarticulate. I am just WORN OUT by this whole thing.

  125. GreenBeret7 March 28th, 2010 at 9:34 pm

    Martin had been a drunk since the early 50s. The worst thing that ever happened to him was being hired to manage the Yankees. Steinbrenner has always been a power freak. That’s how he took a banrupt ship building company and turned a profit. That’s how he took a bankrupt baseball team to the top in 4 years. He’s impatient, but, so is everyone that has his life savings tied up in a business. I wouldn’t trust anyone else with my money, either.

    He always got hammered for firing people but never does anybody bother to mention that they are almost always hired for another spot in the organization, usually for the same money. He did the same with office staff. He’d fire them one day and hire them back the next. They were told to go home for the day (with pay) and just show up for work the next. He had a ego. How many people in his position doesn’t have an ego?

    Personally, I think he was great for baseball. If the owners had listened to him 15 years ago, they would have made more money and possibly saved baseball in Montreal and teams wouldn’t have gone belly-up. He offered to deal with the networks and local radio/tv people on contracts as well as mechandising. They told him that they didn’t need help. Now, they have their hands into his pockets up to their elbows. They could have had a lot more.

  126. Bill March 28th, 2010 at 9:34 pm

    They gave Joba the chance to win the 5th spot and he didn’t win it.

    I don’t know why the Yanks held last year’s numbers against him, but they did. No one could have succeeded with that pitching schedule. 9 days off, regular rest, 5 days off, 9 days off, 4 days but with a 40 pitch limit, 5 days with a 50 pitch limit, 4 days, 80 pitches, 5 days 100 pitches etc.

  127. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 28th, 2010 at 9:34 pm

    No one cares about Hughes. He is a pretty boy from the OC who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. His family has plenty of money. He does not need to money you get from starting. That is probably why he does not work very hard. It took the guy 3 freaking years to develop one pitch!

    They should just move Hughes to LF. Then maybe Eiland could actually be useful and help him with his throwing.

  128. Yank1 March 28th, 2010 at 9:35 pm

    Joba-mania will NEVER die, nor should it. We still have to hang on to hope that the 100 MPH flamethrower is still in him.

  129. Rich in NJ March 28th, 2010 at 9:36 pm

    “I’m not so sure there wouldn’t have been a Vazquez trade even if Joba was good.

    We got him insanely cheap”

    Yet according to many experts, the Yankees paid more for Vazquez than the Mariners did for Lee.

    “We got him insanely cheap. I don’t want to hear about a Low-A pitcher. If Cash had the opportunity to get a talent like that for a 4th OFer, I bet you he’d do it again and would have had Hughes as the 6th starter or in the pen.”

    A very highly low A pitcher is not equivalent to a 4th OF. As such, no one would trade Vazquez for a 4th OF. They gave up a very talented young pitcher for him.

    Cash isn’t stupid. He knows how important it is to develop cost-controlled starting pitching.

    “Cashman himself said that his worry about the innings total from last year and wanting to preserve those guys and have insurance was big consideration.”

    This is true, but if Joba was good he would have eaten a portion of that innings total, thereby negating much of the rationale for acquiring Vazquez.

  130. REZ March 28th, 2010 at 9:37 pm

    “Do you believe that if Joba does well this year that he absolutely will get another shot to start ?”

    Fans want to think so, but the tea leaves read a different story.

    They may want to leave him in one place once and for all, especially if he is successful.

  131. Giuseppe Franco March 28th, 2010 at 9:37 pm

    Betsy – Romine wasn’t built in a day March 28th, 2010 at 9:26 pm

    I don’t recall CB being disgusted by Cashman.

    GF, I guess I don’t understand why Phil’s development should be secondary to Joba’s. Why should Phil be stuck in the pen for a 2nd year in a row, especially when he made significant improvement to his repertoire?

    —————-

    Maybe “disgusted” is the wrong word pertaining to CB’s opinion of Cashman. But I do know he shares our disappointment with Joba’s handling.

    I think you sometimes take anything regarding Hughes a little too personally.

    If you recall, I was not a fan of the move to use Hughes out of the pen last season. I wanted him to remain a starting pitcher for the duration of 2009 because they obviously needed starters with all the injuries they had (and ended up with two scrubs starting games for them down the stretch – Mitre and Gaudin).

    It makes no difference to me which guy is getting the short end of the stick now. I’d be just as disappointed if Hughes was in Joba’s place right now.

    I want BOTH of these guys to be starting pitchers long term.

  132. Rich in NJ March 28th, 2010 at 9:39 pm

    MTU

    Because that is what Cash is saying.

  133. Bandaid March 28th, 2010 at 9:39 pm

    Joba lost the competition, but he is still a vital part of the team.

    It is just a shame that they gave him only ONE year (with the last 2 months being on ridiculous schedules) to prove himself and now the experiment is put on hold for another year, and maybe over all together.

    They should have put him in the rotation and seen what he could do with no limits of any kind.

  134. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 9:40 pm

    How is Joba getting a pass?
    People have trashed Joba and his character just as much if not more than they ever did to Hughes.
    Lohudders (and fly by nighters) rip Joba almost everyday on this blog.
    ===

    They’ve both been trashed relentlessly by the fanboy type on other sites.

    You have 15-year olds calling out Joba for drinking binges – like they’d know how much this kid drinks.

    Hughes, on this site, has been accused of lacking “toughness”, when his MO, since he was a wee-tot, has been his steeliness and composure.

    It’s amazing what a better developed cutter can do as an antidote to “toughness” – and even moreso, what it can do against LHB.

    Both are subjected to the Idiot Factor – listen to Francesa for a day – he’s called Hughes a bust at a certain point, and has declared that Joba lacks the “mentality” for starting.

    Yawn.

  135. MTU(aka GBURL) March 28th, 2010 at 9:43 pm

    Rich-

    “Because that is what Cash is saying.”

    And you are not even the least bit skeptical ?

    You accept the statement at full face value ?

  136. Rich in NJ March 28th, 2010 at 9:44 pm

    ” listen to Francesa for a day – he’s called Hughes a bust at a certain point, and has declared that Joba lacks the “mentality” for starting.”

    Sadly, I think that Francesa intended that as a compliment.

  137. Ralph March 28th, 2010 at 9:44 pm

    Cash has no reason to rule out Joba as a starter ever again, even if that is what his stance is.

    Eppler and Eliand made those comments public for a reason. I bet that is the prevailing sentiment in the organization. Of course, Cashman’s opinion is the only one that matters, but if his top advisers are telling him one thing, is he going to go the other direction?

    Especially since guys like Eliand are around the kid everyday and know the situation better than Cashman does.

  138. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 9:45 pm

    Betsy,

    Get ready. When Hughes has those protracted innings, the Yankee “fans” will boo him just like they shouted down Joba in that awkward year.

    You need to shake off the morons that can’t comprehend that developing young starters is both pain and joy.

    Hughes isn’t really an underdog, either. He’s always been considered a front-of-rotation starter from Go. No one with any sense doubts he’s going to be a successful starter. But he’s going to be questioned the first time he stumbles – but by DUMB PEOPLE.

  139. Atlantic March 28th, 2010 at 9:46 pm

    Why is Eliand being killed for giving his opinion?

    Anyone read the NYPost this morning where K.Long said that he thinks Garnder could steal 70 and score 100 from the 9th spot? Why not kill him for his opinion too?

  140. Giuseppe Franco March 28th, 2010 at 9:47 pm

    Both are subjected to the Idiot Factor – listen to Francesa for a day – he’s called Hughes a bust at a certain point, and has declared that Joba lacks the “mentality” for starting.

    Yawn.

    ————

    You ain’t kidding, brother.

    Sadly, there are a number of writers who suffer from the same disease as Francesa. Bill Madden might be right at the top of that list.

  141. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 9:47 pm

    Rich in NJ
    March 28th, 2010 at 9:44 pm
    ” listen to Francesa for a day – he’s called Hughes a bust at a certain point, and has declared that Joba lacks the “mentality” for starting.”
    Sadly, I think that Francesa intended that as a compliment.
    ===

    Oh, absolutely.

    What he meant to say, was that Phil will wind up as a “bust” in Monument Park one day, but alas, he didn’t have the language skills to communicate it properly.

  142. Rich in NJ March 28th, 2010 at 9:48 pm

    MTU

    Yes, I have a degree of skepticism, but there are so many things that can happen that could force them to put Joba in the rotation, from injuries to underperformances, to seeing in Joba whatever they think they are not seeing now. Taken together, to me that means its’ not over.

    Cash knows how important it is to develop starting pitching. I believe he still wants Joba to end up as a starter, unless Mariano’s performance falls off a cliff.

  143. Bill March 28th, 2010 at 9:48 pm

    Hasn’t Cashman proven by now that his words are meaningless? He says a whole lot of nothing when he talks. As he should – he doesn’t talk about issues in public.

  144. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 28th, 2010 at 9:48 pm

    We as fans are always minus a puzzle piece or two. So we don’t know everything with regard to the organization’s stance on Joba for the future.

    I’m content to let it all play out.

    Sure, in a perfect world, Joba and Phil would have anchored the back end of this year’s rotation. But it ain’t no perfect world, that’s plain.

    I’m rooting for Joba to get another chance to start next season, based on a fantabulous season this year, a need for another starter and the team not really wanting to spend money on Lee.

  145. Big G March 28th, 2010 at 9:49 pm

    “Get ready. When Hughes has those protracted innings, the Yankee “fans” will boo him just like they shouted down Joba in that awkward year.”

    I was at that game against Detroit back in 06 when Hughes started and got bombed… man, did he get booed hard or what. That was as bad as I’ve seen someone get booed. Poor kid.

    Sadly, things won’t be different now. Fans are fickle.

  146. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 9:49 pm

    Atlantic
    March 28th, 2010 at 9:46 pm
    Why is Eliand being killed for giving his opinion?
    Anyone read the NYPost this morning where K.Long said that he thinks Garnder could steal 70 and score 100 from the 9th spot? Why not kill him for his opinion too?
    ===

    Because Long is buoying his player. Building him up and making him feel he can do it. I don’t think what he said is realistic, but you have to admire his support of his player and his intention for that player’s success.

  147. MTU(aka GBURL) March 28th, 2010 at 9:50 pm

    Rich-

    Thank you for clarifying where you stand and why. :)

  148. Nick in SF in Larkspur March 28th, 2010 at 9:50 pm

    The only antidote to this strife is Redsocks misery. :evil:

  149. Big G March 28th, 2010 at 9:50 pm

    *Not in 06, in 2008

  150. Giuseppe Franco March 28th, 2010 at 9:53 pm

    Keep in mind that the Yanks are absolutely going to need more than 5 starters this season.

    And guess who is going to get the first opportunity to start if/when one of the current members of the rotation goes down?

    It’s Sergio Mitre – not Joba.

    Seems like a bit of a waste to me. I don’t have a lot of faith in Mitre based on his history. I don’t really care how well he’s pitching in ST.

    I’d rather Joba be that 6th starter. They are going to need all the starters they can get to grind through those 162 games.

  151. Zero March 28th, 2010 at 9:53 pm

    Eliand publicly disparaged the kid today – saying that he is in the bullpen for life (not in those terms but that is exactly what he meant).

    How do you think Joba felt reading that? After all the hard work he put in, he gets 1 year to prove he is an ace and now he is a career reliever?

    I can see why fans are miffed at Eliand – that comment was unnecessary. Eventually, you are not going to motivate him anymore, you are just going to pile on and drag him down.

    Let the kid breath. He has had ONE year as a starter, and the way he was handled in that 1 yr is one of the follies in baseball history. Now he is a career reliever? Pipe down, Eliand. You too, Eppler.

  152. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 28th, 2010 at 9:54 pm

    “Anyone read the NYPost this morning where K.Long said that he thinks Garnder could steal 70 and score 100 from the 9th spot? Why not kill him for his opinion too?”

    —————————

    Why would anyone criticize Long for complimenting his player?

    Long is putting himself out there. Letting Gardner know if his performance is under par he is going down with him in a sense. It is quite admirable for him to do that considering most think Gardner has no shot of performing like that.

  153. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 9:54 pm

    Big G
    March 28th, 2010 at 9:49 pm
    “Get ready. When Hughes has those protracted innings, the Yankee “fans” will boo him just like they shouted down Joba in that awkward year.”
    I was at that game against Detroit back in 06 when Hughes started and got bombed… man, did he get booed hard or what. That was as bad as I’ve seen someone get booed. Poor kid.
    Sadly, things won’t be different now. Fans are fickle.
    ===

    Right, the idea that we have “smart” fans in our legions is true, but most aren’t, just like other fan bodies.

    Without getting into the sociological thing, there are just too many remote control people who attend these games, who live in a world where if they don’t like how something is proceeding, they zap it out of existence or change channels.

    This is hostile to the very rhythm of the game of baseball. Even more to developing pitching. Let’s face it – many people who go to these games aren’t all that bright. That might be harsh, but I believe it to be true.

  154. Banks March 28th, 2010 at 9:56 pm

    Eliand said it would be too dangerous to stretch Joba back out (if a starter goes down) and jerk him back and forth again like in 08. He said he is in the pen to stay this year.

    Makes sense, if they are doing it for health purposes.

  155. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 9:56 pm

    I’d rather Joba be that 6th starter. They are going to need all the starters they can get to grind through those 162 games.
    ====

    Needless to say, I wholeheartedly agree.

  156. MTU(aka GBURL) March 28th, 2010 at 9:56 pm

    I hope if Joba does well this season that he gets another chance to show what he can do as a starter.

    I am GBU.

    I won’t run one guy down at the expense of the other.

    Hope they both find their respective cielings and wind up as top flight young starters. :)

  157. Emo March 28th, 2010 at 9:57 pm

    Joba doesn’t exactly come from the best background. Don’t want to get into his personal life, but it is not outrageous to suggest that some of his problems stem from that.

    He is not the most mature person in the world and he came into camp out of shape. He also shook off catchers 10 times a game last year.

    It is fairly obvious why he fell out of favor with the organization, and as a result, they gave the spot to Hughes.

  158. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 9:59 pm

    Zero
    March 28th, 2010 at 9:53 pm
    Eliand publicly disparaged the kid today – saying that he is in the bullpen for life (not in those terms but that is exactly what he meant).
    How do you think Joba felt reading that? After all the hard work he put in, he gets 1 year to prove he is an ace and now he is a career reliever?
    ===

    Now, I did not hear this. But if this is true, this man is an idiot.

  159. m March 28th, 2010 at 9:59 pm

    mtu,

    Sorry, that was supposed to be “Eiland was not solely…”

    Boy, really changes the context.

    I don’t have the energy now to go through the game logs. But I think that Joba’s a lot of starts were short starts were truncated not because of innings but because he had reached his pitch count.

    And IIRC there were times when Joba labored, so it wasn’t feasible to let him go over the limit.

    Plus, too, he was coming off a shoulder issue the previous year.

    AND, they don’t let the young kids get out of their own messes, so they get the early hook.

    Anyway, it’s not all on the staff. Joba shares some of the responsiblity, too.

  160. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 28th, 2010 at 9:59 pm

    I have to agree with Zero in regard to Eiland’s comments about Joba today. Joba in the bullpen for life means Joba has failed. There is no way around that. Failed starters go to the bullpen.

    How about you stand up for your guy, say he still has a bright future as a SP, and let Cashman make the personnel decisions.

  161. MTU(aka GBURL) March 28th, 2010 at 9:59 pm

    Bohdi-

    Best wishes for the complete recovery of your Mother.

    Baseball is a joke compared with that !

  162. Roger March 28th, 2010 at 10:00 pm

    The other downside of Joba in the pen -

    He blocks our phenom, Mark Melancon. The guy had an unbelievable spring… hard sinking fastball that just frustrates hitters along with that hammer curve. Could be among the best 8th inning guys in the league.

    Yet, he is back in AAA – where he has dominated for 1.5 seasons. And instead, we have our ace starter pitching the 8th inning and in AAA, we have our set up man.

    Something here does not make sense.

  163. Danny March 28th, 2010 at 10:03 pm

    Joba went atleast 6 innings in 11 of his first 19 starts last year (before the crazy schedule took effect. I took out his Baltimore start where he left after 0.2 innings after that line drive)

    He went atleast 5 innings in 15 of his first 19.

  164. pat March 28th, 2010 at 10:03 pm

    “Eliand publicly disparaged the kid today – saying that he is in the bullpen for life (not in those terms but that is exactly what he meant).”

    Why is pitching in the bullpen interpretted as a punishment. Seems to have worked out pretty well for Mariano.

  165. MTU(aka GBURL) March 28th, 2010 at 10:03 pm

    m-

    “Joba shares some of the responsiblity, too.”

    Of course. For his executing or not executing his pitches.
    Without a doubt.

    For the overall plan. None.

  166. Yanks 77 March 28th, 2010 at 10:03 pm

    Why wouldn’t Eliand want Joba in the pen for life? It saves him all the work of trying to develop him! He can save face that way.

  167. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 28th, 2010 at 10:04 pm

    Though he said things can change — “I never say anything’s forever” — Eiland said there’s no plan for Chamberlain to be reevaluated at the end of the season for a starting job.

    “We get more out of his ability as a reliever,” Eiland said.

    “We feel like he can be a good starter. We feel like he can be a great reliever.”

    Said Eiland: “He’s in the bullpen, and he’s there to stay, period.”

  168. LGY - Child Prodigy/GB7's Bestest Buddy March 28th, 2010 at 10:04 pm

    http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde....._joba.html

  169. Dave D. March 28th, 2010 at 10:05 pm

    I remember reading a comment from Burnett last year saying he couldn’t even imagine pitching on such a weird schedule like Joba did and it would be hard on any pitcher to succeed like that.

  170. m March 28th, 2010 at 10:06 pm

    I think that the team’s already had “THE” talk with Joba.

  171. Joba-Mania March 28th, 2010 at 10:07 pm

    “We get more out of his ability as a reliever,” Eiland said.

    “We feel like he can be a good starter. We feel like he can be a great reliever.”

    Said Eiland: “He’s in the bullpen, and he’s there to stay, period.”

    ——————–

    Embarrassing. Even more embarrassing that Cashman lets this guy continue to talk. He must agree with him then right? Otherwise why would you want your PC saying things like this?

  172. Chad Jennings March 28th, 2010 at 10:08 pm

    On last post for the night.

  173. Devin March 28th, 2010 at 10:08 pm

    “I think that the team’s already had “THE” talk with Joba.”

    puberty?

  174. Giuseppe Franco March 28th, 2010 at 10:08 pm

    I think Melancon is going to get his opportunity this season.

    At some point, someone will either be ineffective or go down with an injury – paving the way for him.

    I can see Melancon getting his opportunity in much the same fashion as Robertson got his opportunity last season.

    Let’s just hope he makes the most of it like Robertson did. His command of the strike zone will have to be significantly better than 2009 if he wants to stick in the majors.

  175. Jerkface March 28th, 2010 at 10:09 pm

    The problem with these statements is that Eiland is giving himself no room to maneuver and is killing Joba’s value.

    Why not say, “Joba is in the bullpen this year to try and find himself again like Hughes last year, and that he won’t be transitioned to a starter this season for health reasons, but Joba’s success this year could be parlayed into success as a starter next year.”

    Why saying stuff like “Joba is in the bullpen. PERIOD.”

    Its divisive.

  176. GreenBeret7 March 28th, 2010 at 10:12 pm

    NYY has pitchers that pitched better than Vizcaino did last year, that are as young or younger and in higher leagues. Right now, they have as many talented arms in the system as anyone in baseball. They won’t keep all of them, because there isn’t room for them. The goal is to win every year. If you can’t use them for the next four years, trade the excess for something you do need. NYYs needed a starter so they traded off a rookie league pitcher that they have in duplicates. Amazing that the ones whining the most are the ones that have never seen the players. Much like the Montero can’t be a ML catcher BS that’s spouted by many….they never saw him, but, they are experts. Sort of like the board pitching coaches and armchair psychologists on here.

  177. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 28th, 2010 at 10:13 pm

    why say anything at all, beyond “Hughes won the 5th starter role and Joba will be helping the team out of the bullpen”?

  178. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 10:28 pm

    Yanks 77
    March 28th, 2010 at 9:16 pm
    bod,
    When it comes to this, Cash is full of it. Eppler and Eliand’s comments just further that theory. Those guys are not just talking about of their rear-end… where there is smoke….
    The fact that Cash has to be so adamant is more of a form of damage control than it is his true beliefs.
    ===

    it’s possible that it’s damage control. Well, let’s here what the boys have to say in ST 2011.

  179. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 10:32 pm

    My biggest problem with the organization is they presumably pulled the plug way too early on Joba the Starter after all the ridiculous rules they made last season to keep his innings in check. Now they are sticking back in the pen, which essentially means they went through all that trouble for nothing.
    I’m not going to speak for guys like Bodh and CB on this issue, but I think that’s the crux of the matter that has them “disgusted” with Cash and the rest of the gang regarding Joba’s role.
    Bodh is certainly not alone because I share that disgust as well.
    ===

    GF,

    I’d say that pretty much sums up my position.

  180. bodhisattva - Destiny Wears Pinstripes March 28th, 2010 at 10:48 pm

    MTU(aka GBURL)
    March 28th, 2010 at 9:59 pm
    Bohdi-
    Best wishes for the complete recovery of your Mother.
    Baseball is a joke compared with that !
    ===

    A thousand, heart-felt thanks, MTU.

    She’s doing great, BTW! :D.

  181. Comet March 29th, 2010 at 7:53 am

    “Fred McGriff for Dale Murray.
    Doug Drabek for Rick Rhoden.
    Willie McGee for Bob Sykes.”

    I just couldn’t believe the Doug Drabek for Rick Rhoden deal. Rhoden was on the decline. What an awful deal!!! So was the Ken Phelphs for Jay Buhner deal. Just really bad short term thinking, none more so than Phelphs for Buhner.

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