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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Rounding out the bullpen

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Mar 29, 2010 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The Yankees have a night game in Sarasota, so there’s not much going on this morning. To kill some time before we get lineups, I’ll ask this question.

Do the Yankees need a second lefty?

They went through most of last season with only Phil Coke, and they’ve established that Damaso Marte is going to be used more as a matchup lefty than as a setup reliever. It’s hard to carry a second left-hander unless he can also pitch in long relief or in late-inning situations against both lefties and righties.

Boone Logan and Royce Ring have each pitched well this spring, but both can also be sent to Triple-A without passing through waivers. If it comes down to a second lefty or a traditional long man, who would you rather carry? There are basically two spots* for Logan, Ring, Sergio Mitre and Alfredo Aceves. Mitre is the only one who can’t be sent to the minors.

* Granted, the Yankees could open with an eight-man bullpen until their fifth starter is needed, but eventually there will be only seven.

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237 Responses to “Rounding out the bullpen”

  1. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 10:29 am

    That’s not true. Karsten would have never been given a chance at all had the Yankees not completely ignored the draft for years and miss spent on FA starting pitching.

    Ok, but the fact remains he DID get multiple chances, and continued those chances with the Pirates. He has 600 minor league innings. Joba has 88. And Joba has been mostly good as a starter! And yet a lot of people are trying to close the book on him.

    The whole point of drafting is to get guys like Joba in the rotation.

    ~repost~

    I’d leave Logan and Ring in the minors, but if I had to choose I guess Logan? Both guys haven’t really been good in the majors, but Logan has shown some impressive stuff this spring.

    I’d leave him down there until its known if Marte is bad or not.

    Robertson, mariano, and marte can all take on lefties.

  2. charlestonchew March 29th, 2010 at 10:29 am

    Aceves will make this team. Mitre will too. That’s for sure.

  3. ditmars1929 March 29th, 2010 at 10:30 am

    Generally, I’d prefer a second lefty, but a long relief guy is probably more important.

  4. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 10:31 am

    The choice is definitely: Mitre + Aceves/Ring/Logan, Losers to Scranton.

    This is where having inbetweeners like Mitre and Gaudin can handicap roster management.

  5. Rich in NJ March 29th, 2010 at 10:32 am

    One reason that has been cited for not putting Joba at AAA is that he is one of the 12 best pitchers and there would be opportunity costs if wasn’t in the ML pen. On a lower level, the same logic applies to Logan. He has earned a spot.

  6. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 10:32 am

    SJ, heavens -I would never sell Mo short. I think he would make a divine pitching coach; he’s sort of a 2nd one now. I honestly don’t recall what he said about Phil; did he suggest that the pen was just (or should just) be a way station for Phil on his way back to being a starter? I don’t even know that he made any comments on Phil’s futre the way he did about Joba. I don’t believe Mo has a self-serving bone in his body, so I certainly think his intentions were good when he made the comment about Joba. Of all players, Mo is the only one I would really listen to because, in addition to him being the Yoda of the Yankees, he was a starter before he was sent to the pen. He knows what it takes to perform in both roles.

  7. Jason March 29th, 2010 at 10:32 am

    At least for the start of the season, give me the long man…pitchers are still getting into their routines and we may need guys to handle mop up innings

  8. Rich in NJ March 29th, 2010 at 10:34 am

    What kind of shot did Karstens deserve? He’s not a good pitcher.

  9. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 10:35 am

    I thought Marte was a normal set-up guy before he came to NY; is it strange that the Yankees think he can only get lefties out?

    Regardless, not having a long-man came back to bite us in the rear end last year. The odds of that happening again aren’t good, but who knows? Ace’s back issues are a concern, so I’d probably go with a long man, though I would prefer to have a 2nd lefty (I’m not even sure who I would take as both Logan and Ring have done well).

  10. randy l. March 29th, 2010 at 10:35 am

    “One question though, did he work hard to get drafted or was he drafted because of his potential?”

    maine yankee-

    i think because of his personal background and how late he started pitching and having injuries in college, he probably had to work really hard, but don’t really know for sure.
    as i’ve said before , i don’t follow players that much until they get close to being with the parent yankees.

    sj44 or cb would know infinitely more than than i do about joba’s pre yankee and minor league career.

  11. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 10:35 am

    Karstens didn’t deserve half of what he got, its just odd that Joba, a much more talented pitcher that has produced in the starters role, is getting less consideration than Jeff Karstens did 3 years ago.

  12. RayVT March 29th, 2010 at 10:36 am

    I think that Joba’s preparing to be a starter this spring will help him in the bulpen. I personally think Joba will excel this year from the pen. Concentrating on his best 2 pitches, fastball & slider, will help him gain his confidence and swagger back. Pitching regularly as a reliever will help him get his pitching/arm motions down pat as well. Although I prefer Joba as an SP in 2011 and beyond, I think he belongs in the pen for 2010. I expect during the dog days of Summer, Joba will introduce his changeup again too. He will be able to work on it more during the season as a relief pitcher and side seesions having not thrown 100+ pitches every 5 days.

  13. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 10:38 am

    I don’t care whether they take another left handed or a right handed pitcher north. Take the best one available that can get out both left and right handed pitchers and can go 2 innings if necessary without blowing the game out of reach.

  14. austinmac March 29th, 2010 at 10:39 am

    I would prefer Logan but not if the Yankees would lose Mitre. I do believe Mitre is either the first starter substitute or, at least, the first option for long relief if Aceves were to become the fill in starter. I can’t see the Yankees giving him up by not having him on the 25 man roster.

  15. MaineYankee March 29th, 2010 at 10:40 am

    randy

    Seeing that you blame Cashman for ruining Wang, who do you blame on the Twins for Liraino’s(sp) injury woes?

  16. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 10:43 am

    Karstens got a chance three years ago because the Yankees were in need of a starter. NYY isn’t in that same need, now. 3 years later, Karsten’s situation has nothing to do with Chamberlain’s.

  17. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 10:44 am

    Randy, I saw your post in the previous thread. I don’t think Cash has proven that he can’t develop young pitchers. Both Phil and Joba have had a fair degree of success in the majors and they are still quite young. Phil has simply been set back by injuries – that’s just bad luck. Joba has his “quirks” as have been discussed here ad infinitum. While I don’t think the Yanks did a great job with him last year, I still don’t think that they are responsible for his poor performances. Part of that is on Joba and part is just the usual growing pains for a youngster. What they need to do now is just let Phil pitch, period – for the whole year. If they start messing around with him, yanking him out of the rotation if he’s struggling, then I admit I will start to wonder about them.

  18. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 29th, 2010 at 10:44 am

    So far, I have upstate kate for GTLU. I need to leave for a doctor’s appointment at about a quarter to 2 this afternoon. So, I will accept lineups until 1:30 or until Chad posts the official lineup, whichever happens first. Thanks. :)

    It seems like the last couple of years, the Yankees opted not to have a long reliever go north with them in April and it’s not worked out all that well for them. If I were to guess, I’d say Mitre and Aceves, even though that seems like a duplication, of sorts.

  19. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 10:45 am

    Karstens got a chance three years ago because the Yankees were in need of a starter. NYY isn’t in that same need, now. 3 years later, Karsten’s situation has nothing to do with Chamberlain’s.

    karstens got a lot more development time than Chamberlain, and of course the circumstances are different, but Joba should not get sold short as a starter.

  20. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 10:47 am

    Jerkface, I’m not sure I understand why you think Joba is getting less consideration than he should be. It’s not like he lost out to Mitre – he lost the starting gig to a very talented young pitcher who improved on the thing he needed to improve on the most. The Yankees simply think Phil is better equipped at this point to be a starter than Joba is.

  21. Noreaster (How do you like me now?) March 29th, 2010 at 10:48 am

    Joe loves Ace and Mitre was one of his Florida guys so I think this discussion is just academic (as stated in the post). But it is nice to have guys that we trust down in AAA ready to fill in when needed. I could see the Yankees bringing up a lefty for a tough series in a few months.

  22. Macfan March 29th, 2010 at 10:49 am

    No the Yankees do not need to be carrying Boone Logan or Royce Ring, just because they throw from the left side.

    Look at the bullpen as it stands now.

    Mitre – R – Long Reliever / Spot Starter

    Aceves – R – Long Relief / Short Relief / can work multiple innings or 1 inning, 1 batter, as last season showed.

    Park – R – Terrific against Righthanders, gets ground balls and K’s vs Righties

    Robertson – R – 7th inning bridge to setup man, excellent against lefties as an added bonus, lefties hit .189 off him last season

    Marte – L – Primary Lefty Reliever

    Joba – R – Setup Man

    Rivera – R – Closer

    Where does Boone Logan or Royce Ring fit in that pen, nowhere.

    I get annoyed when a team takes a guy on the roster just because he throws left handed and he sit in the pen like a lump of coal to come in and face 1 batter and either walks that guy or gives up a hit. What a waste

    That is how we ended up with the likes of

    Chris Hammond
    Mike Myers
    Felix Heredia
    Billy Traber
    Sean Henn

    and the list of stiffs and bums go on and on.

    I much rather have the better pitcher than what arm he throws with, doesn’t mean anything if they can’t get outs.

    I have no confidence in Boone Logan or Royce Ring and this roster has no spot for them. Off to the minors they go.

  23. Rich in NJ March 29th, 2010 at 10:50 am

    As I said at the time (really), the biggest mistake they made with Joba was calling him up to be in the pen in 2007. It robbed him of development time as a starter, and it skewed perceptions about what his future role should be.

  24. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 10:52 am

    Jerkface, I’m not sure I understand why you think Joba is getting less consideration than he should be. It’s not like he lost out to Mitre – he lost the starting gig to a very talented young pitcher who improved on the thing he needed to improve on the most. The Yankees simply think Phil is better equipped at this point to be a starter than Joba is

    Its not Phil vs Joba, I’m fine with that outcome. Its Joba vs Bullpen. I want someone in this organization to just say that maybe Joba can find himself as a starter out of the pen like Hughes did last year. The only guy saying he is starter is Cashman.

    That leads me to believe most of the yankees organization is writing him off as a reliever. I dislike that greatly.

    I’d prefer he go to AAA and try to get back to his 2008 self, but if he is in the bullpen I want it to be as part of a larger process to restore Joba to a starting pitcher.

    Joba to the bullpen is an ok outcome if it means Joba is a starter in 2011 or 2012 or traded for something useful.

    Joba to the bullpen is a bad outcome if it means Joba is now merely a middle reliever.

  25. Macfan March 29th, 2010 at 10:52 am

    RayVT March 29th, 2010 at 10:36 am

    “I think that Joba’s preparing to be a starter this spring will help him in the bulpen. I personally think Joba will excel this year from the pen. Concentrating on his best 2 pitches, fastball & slider, will help him gain his confidence and swagger back”

    +++++++++++++++++++

    Fully agree Ray, you saw what it did for Hughes. Just seeing Joba back in that role, brings back visions of his fist pump and his veins pulsing in his neck.

    In that role he can go all out, no holding back and just bring it to the mound for that inning or two on a given day. Free and easy.

  26. Rich in NJ March 29th, 2010 at 10:53 am

    Chris Hammond
    Mike Myers
    Felix Heredia
    Billy Traber
    Sean Henn

    Logan wouldn’t be on the roster merely because he’s a lefty. It would be because he won a job in ST.

    btw, Hammond never pitched often enough to be given a fair shot. He actually pitched quite well when Torre didn’t bury him or use him against RHB.

  27. randy l. March 29th, 2010 at 10:53 am

    “Seeing that you blame Cashman for ruining Wang, who do you blame on the Twins for Liraino’s(sp) injury woes?”

    maine yankee,

    i really don’t know anything about liriano or his injury history.

    it goes without saying that wang wasn’t handled well last spring.

    not to be flip, but it’s so obvious that it’s not even worth debating or talking about.

    i’m assuming you’re responding to my comment at the end of the last post saying that if wang comes back with the nationals it’s going to add to the debate whether cashman knows what he’s doing with developing pitchers.

    i think it’s fair to say that if wang comes back to anything close to his past success that it will not be a feather in cashman’s cap.

    i’m just pointing out what may happen a few months from now that may add to the cashman /joba/development debate.

    i also said cashman will look like a genius if wang doesn’t come back.

  28. Erin March 29th, 2010 at 10:53 am

    SS Jeter
    DH Johnson
    1B Texeira
    3B Rodriguez
    2B Cano
    LF Thames
    C Cervelli
    CF Winn
    RF Weber

    thanks!

  29. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 10:53 am

    Kartstens got “longer to develop” because he was less talented and needed more time. He was still in the majors in 2 and a half seasons. Nobody is “selling Chamberlain short as a starter”, except for idiots in the media and fans that are more interested in whining about anything. He’s not needed as a starter right now. Later this year or next year might be different.

  30. Noreaster (How do you like me now?) March 29th, 2010 at 10:53 am

    This will be debated all season, but is it possible that Cashman stretched out Joba last year and will stretch out Phil this year and both could be in the rotation next year? Plus, Mo is superhuman, but he is 40 and we have to at least start the conversation of life without Mo. Melancon, Robertson and Joba are the only guys on the roster with a shot at replacing Mo. Melancon, I think we can all agree is unproven, so that leaves Robertson and Joba.

  31. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 29th, 2010 at 10:56 am

    Mariano Rivera is the most overrated pitcher of all time.

    Alex Rodriquez is still on PEDs.

    Jorge Posada is the greatest defensive catcher of all time.

    Derek Jeter is selfish for never trying to hit for power.

    Robinson Cano is lazy and will never be half the player Pedroia is.

    That’s all I have to say…

  32. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 29th, 2010 at 10:57 am

    btw – I don’t believe ANY of the things I wrote in my previous post, I’m just throwing myself to the wolves to TRY to get past this Chamberlain crap.

  33. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 10:59 am

    This will be debated all season, but is it possible that Cashman stretched out Joba last year and will stretch out Phil this year and both could be in the rotation next year?

    Thats what I’m hoping, and likely what Cashman is hoping. If Joba can regain some of his pre-2009 performance levels, it’d be a real boon.

    And GB7, I recognize that being less talented also gives you the upshot of more development time and you end up with needing to perform at a high level longer before getting a shot (likely leading to better performance once you make it). Joba was so talented he got very little development time as a starter.

    And all the time he did get was not in a controlled environment. Thats combined with eiland and eppler’s rather definitive statements are all that I am talking about.

  34. MaineYankee March 29th, 2010 at 11:00 am

    randy

    Just trying to get you going. :lol:

    My point was though is that all teams have problems with keeping pitchers healthy and not always easy to put the blame on one person.

  35. Bronx Jeers March 29th, 2010 at 11:01 am

    Personally, I’m hoping Wang comes back in a big way and i’m not too concerned about Cashman.

  36. Macfan March 29th, 2010 at 11:01 am

    “Rich in NJ March 29th, 2010 at 10:53 am

    Chris Hammond
    Mike Myers
    Felix Heredia
    Billy Traber
    Sean Henn

    Logan wouldn’t be on the roster merely because he’s a lefty. It would be because he won a job in ST.

    btw, Hammond never pitched often enough to be given a fair shot. He actually pitched quite well when Torre didn’t bury him or use him against RHB.”

    +++++++++++++++++

    The thing is Rich I’m just not impressed with Logan’s track record in the past, he has been up and down in his career from the majors to minors and all over the place in his makeup.

    In 2008 his last full season, lefties hit .291 off of him with 5 HR’s and 20 RBI’s, that’s no lefty specialist.

    Who would you take out of the bullpen to have a Boone Logan on the roster. To me his presence on this roster is just not imperative to be given a roster spot over any of those guys listed.

    Mitre
    Aceves
    Park
    Robertson
    Marte
    Joba

  37. Nick in SF in Healdsburg March 29th, 2010 at 11:03 am

    pat, if you’re out there, the coversational moratorium a year ago was on steroids, not Alex per se (IIRC).

    As for Joba, I can understand people being tired of the topic; I don’t get complaining about Joba being discussed so much yesterday, given the Eppler/Eiland/Cashman quotes that were made.

    In a better world the last Sunday in March would have been devoted to the talents and foibles of Melky Mesa, but sometimes destiny has other ideas.

  38. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 11:03 am

    If you’re going on what Eiland ans Eppler said, why being Karstens into the conversation? He has nothing to do with the decision on Chamberlain. Just white noise.

  39. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 11:05 am

    Jerkface, got it. I agree with your post. For now – they should not give up on Joba as a starter. If they determine after sufficient time that he would be a better reliever then that’s one thing, but I don’t think that can be said at this time. Still, the Yankees are not dummies and they know Joba better than we do. I believe that they will do the right thing by him and by the team.

  40. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 11:05 am

    Randy, how was golf yesterday?

  41. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 11:06 am

    why ***bring*** Karstens into the conversation?

  42. MaineYankee March 29th, 2010 at 11:06 am

    “In a better world the last Sunday in March would have been devoted to the talents and foibles of Melky Mesa, but sometimes destiny has other ideas.”

    Or if Duke will win the National Championship. :lol:

  43. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 29th, 2010 at 11:08 am

    Well, that didn’t work.

    Anyway, anyone have any idea where one can find spring training stats for the minor leaguers?

    Does anyone keep them?

  44. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 11:09 am

    Mesa has correctable foibles.

  45. Nick in SF in Healdsburg March 29th, 2010 at 11:09 am

    No, Joba talk is better than pondering the potential success of Richard Nixon’s law school in a basketball tournament.

  46. m1kew March 29th, 2010 at 11:09 am

    I believe the Yankees when they say they will take the best 12 arms North. That being said at the moment Mitre is still a bit of a mystery to me. He is likely to remain on the 25 man roster because he has no options left and doing so allows Cashman time for a trade is he thinks that is his best alternative. On the other hand if Mitre can contribute more than the “2nd lefty” then there is no need to trade him.

    I think Logan has shown that if he does not make the team now and if his performance remains strong then I would expect him as one of the first call ups and not because he is a lefty but because he is the best option among lefties and righties.

  47. randy l. March 29th, 2010 at 11:09 am

    “Jorge Posada is the greatest defensive catcher of all time.”

    if you’re being sarcastic about falsehoods you should have said:

    “Jorge Posada is the worst defensive catcher of all time.”

    “Jorge Posada is the greatest defensive catcher of all time.” would have fit better because all the other statements were negative falsehoods .

    it’s like one of those IQ tests which asks which statement doesn’t belong.

    using the statement like you did is just subtle posada bashing.

  48. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 11:12 am

    randy l.
    March 29th, 2010 at 11:09 am

    it’s like one of those IQ tests which asks which statement doesn’t belong.

    ————————————————————

    Another example would be, “Randy I belongs on a golf course”.

  49. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 11:12 am

    If you’re going on what Eiland ans Eppler said, why being Karstens into the conversation? He has nothing to do with the decision on Chamberlain. Just white noise.

    As I said, its not JUST what I am talking about. I am also talking about development of pitchers for the yankees. A guy like Gaudin was brought in to start for the Yankees and kept around for the purpose of being a swing man and the 6th or 7th guy in the rotation. Mitre IS being kept around for that purpose. I don’t think they’d hesitate to turn Aceves into a starter if the need arose.

    If Joba is indeed one of the 12 best arms, he should be getting consideration before the likes of Mitre and Aceves. I assume Mitre is the 6th starter, and Aceves 7th as he’ll need to be stretched. Joba should be the 7th or 8th guy.

    But, going back to Eiland and Eppler, he is apparently not in consideration for that at all. And we don’t know how he is going to be used yet, but wouldn’t it make sense to give him longer outings?

  50. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 11:13 am

    “With golf clubs”.

  51. upstate kate March 29th, 2010 at 11:14 am

    good try Stuckey :)

    what about Tex? He is never the topic of any conversation …not that I have anything bad to say about him…

  52. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 11:15 am

    Eiland and Eppler only add input. They don’t make personnel decisions.

  53. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 11:16 am

    Yes, and I have said that Cashman is the only one left who seems to be on the joba-is-a-starter bandwagon, but it is disconcerting when publicly, most of the organization is saying Joba is done as a starter.

    Don’t know why you are being difficult about that.

  54. m March 29th, 2010 at 11:19 am

    SJ,

    If you’re around. Saw that you called out whomever it was who graded Eiland. Not sure if the same poster said Eiland wasn’t in Duncan and Farrell’s league.

    But if Farrell is going to graded based on what his pitchers do, then he’s not elite. At all.

    Anyway, did you guys see that the Sox are considering the possibility of a 6-man rotation when Dice-K comes back?

    Neither Wake nor Dice seem like good bullpen candidates. They’re not going to trade Buccholz (until Gonzalez becomes available, lol).

    If Buccholz struggles, do they send him down? Or hide him in the bullpen? :P

    As for the topic of the post. If you take a lefty, who do you send down? They’re not going to send Joba or Ace down. They’re not going to lose Serge right now. Need a long guy more than a lefty at this point. Andy hasn’t seen much action. Guys get off to slow starts.

    How’s melancon going to crack the bullpen? Do you still look to trade Serge?

  55. RayVT March 29th, 2010 at 11:20 am

    The Yankees have a chance to be a very special team this year. Everyone has a role. Some roles will change during the course of the year and some new faces may appear in Yankee stadium for the Bronx Bombers this year.

    September could be enlightening as well, with Montero, Romine, Garcia, Brackman and others coming up to spell some regulars and provide additional depth. This is the best the Yankees have looked im many years IMO. That said they could end up in 3rd place, but I believe 1st is where they will end up.

    Joba & Phil will play a key role this year and many years to come. I like that!

  56. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 29th, 2010 at 11:20 am

    Actually Randy, you won’t find those questions on IQ tests, but rather standardized tests such as the S.A.T.

    Secondly, you’re still trying way too hard :-)

  57. NY Rob March 29th, 2010 at 11:21 am

    This is a non-issue. the answer seems obvious…

    I think that Ace has to stay based on his talent and versatility. He is more valuable than a second lefty.

    Mitre has to stay because he cannot be sent down. Unless they trade him (after letting CG go, a trade involving Mitre seems unlikely)they have no choice but to keep him. That answers the second lefty question right?

  58. randy l. March 29th, 2010 at 11:21 am

    “Just trying to get you going.”

    maine yankee-

    .. and i appreciate the effort . it’s a cold rainy day on cape cod and 3 strong cups of coffee are barely taking hold.

    betsy-

    you know it was rough conditions when the golf course pro told me to check in with him when i finished so he would know i made it back safely. it was cold with a three club wind at times. the wind chill factor made it about 15 degrees out, but it was sunny and not really that bad.

    growing up in maine and new england prepares you for cold weather . ask maine yankee. my biggest problem was i had so many layers on , i had trouble getting the straps on my golf bag over my shoulders.

    it’s hard to believe next week is opening day with the yankees.

  59. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 29th, 2010 at 11:22 am

    Kate… he has terrible range at first. And his upper-cut swing won’t age well.

  60. ADam March 29th, 2010 at 11:23 am

    Rather have the second lefty, i was really against mitre being in the mix. I personally think the guy is garbage, but just my opinion.

    Adding a second lefty adds flexibility, if need be logan can give you 2 innings, and then you have both Ace and CHP in the pen than can both get outs. I see the “designated long man” being a wasted spot…. Just some guy that takes up a roster spot and is used once every 10 days.

    If the pitching staff resembled the 2008 team, id be all about a long man, but with the 4 horses and young master hughes, you do not need a a long man out of the pen. Ace, CHP, and Logan/ring can more than fill the occasional need to have along relief appearance.

    But i’m 0 for 2 so far when it comes to the pen, I wanted Hughes back in the pen, and Gaudin over MEAT-TRAY…

  61. I like Inge March 29th, 2010 at 11:23 am

    All I want is strike throwing machines coming out of the bullpen. 2nd lefty seems like a luxury.

  62. Nick in SF in Healdsburg March 29th, 2010 at 11:24 am

    Since more Joba talk is ok, please tell me if my logic here is wrong:

    The notion that Joba had a serious chance to win the rotation spot does not make sense in the new context of Eppler and Eiland’s remarks.

  63. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 11:25 am

    How’s melancon going to crack the bullpen? Do you still look to trade Serge?

    Filter ate my post, but pretty much Mitre’s spot is the only one that is likely to be taken barring injury. If a starter goes down and Mitre goes to the rotation Melancon could come up as a long/short reliever. Injury to someone else might get Melancon some time.

    Mitre probably won’t get dealt until the yankees have time to see where the minor league guys that are on the cusp are at.

  64. randy l. March 29th, 2010 at 11:26 am

    “Secondly, you’re still trying way too hard”

    actually it’s pretty easy to prove you are a baseball buffoon.

    i really liked the other day how you acted like some hitters look breaking ball and react fastball.

    you’re a good talker, but you really don’t know the game.

    not that there’s anything wrong with that :)

  65. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 11:27 am

    Also the best 12 arms thing doesn’t ring true when Mitre is on the team. He has been bad for most of his career.

  66. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 11:27 am

    If it’s a decision between Ring Logan and Mitre and no deal can be made for Mitre, you keep Mitre as insurance, but, use him in only selected positions that he’s best succeed. If a deal is made fore Mitre and Marte is doing his job well, I’d seriously think about using Hirsh to work in tandem with Aceves.

  67. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 29th, 2010 at 11:31 am

    As I say, waay too hard.

  68. Patrick March 29th, 2010 at 11:31 am

    “i really liked the other day how you acted like some hitters look breaking ball and react fastball. ”

    Depending on the count / game situation, some hitters do that

  69. SJ44 March 29th, 2010 at 11:33 am

    Nick,

    Correct. Only way it would have been different is if he wowed them. Which he did not.

  70. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 11:34 am

    Sounds rough, Randy, lol, but then golf even under the best of conditions is a test of endurance. Unfortunately, baseball is becoming that way as well. Spring in the northeast is miserable and I have had it up to here with rain. We’re not getting showers, we’re getting all-day soakers.

  71. Patrick March 29th, 2010 at 11:35 am

    We can talk all we want about how the Yankees have handled Chamberlain, and I do agree that he has had less chances to stick as a starter than other, lesser pitchers. However, the bottom line is, if he pitches well he’ll get a spot in the rotation.

    I guarantee, if he pitches like his old self in the pen this year he will have a shot to win a rotation spot again next year. His future is in his own hands

  72. Patrick March 29th, 2010 at 11:36 am

    randy,

    You’re a trooper! I played golf for the first time a week ago, Sunday. It was a gorgeous day and I actually played fairly well. I’m planning on leaving work early on Friday to play again, looks like we are getting another wave of awesome weather.

  73. m March 29th, 2010 at 11:36 am

    Jerkface,

    It seems as if injuries or ineffectiveness are the only way right now. But even ineffectiveness won’t help him much. There aren’t many Scranton Shuttle guys in the bullpen as it stands.

    Nick,

    Neither Eiland nor Eppler said that Joba would be in the bullpen forever. I really took Eiland’s comments to mean this year. Haven’t seen a quote, yet, that has doomed his chances in the long run. At least not by anyone who’s under contract past this year. But he won’t be starting anytime soon if his command doesn’t return imo.

  74. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 11:37 am

    randy l.
    March 29th, 2010 at 11:21 am
    “Just trying to get you going.”

    maine yankee-

    .. and i appreciate the effort . it’s a cold rainy day on cape cod and 3 strong cups of coffee are barely taking hold.

    betsy-

    you know it was rough conditions when the golf course pro told me to check in with him when i finished so he would know i made it back safely. it was cold with a three club wind at times. the wind chill factor made it about 15 degrees out, but it was sunny and not really that bad.

    growing up in maine and new england prepares you for cold weather . ask maine yankee. my biggest problem was i had so many layers on , i had trouble getting the straps on my golf bag over my shoulders.

    it’s hard to believe next week is opening day with the yankees.

    ————————————————————

    Perhaps the greenskeeper was more concerned about having to go out in the cold to find you after two days of being lost in the rough.

  75. randy l. March 29th, 2010 at 11:38 am

    “Another example would be, “Randy I belongs on a golf course”.”

    gb7-

    did you see my post for you yesterday?

    randy l.
    March 28th, 2010 at 10:29 am
    on the cbs morning show watching a lady 101 years old sell tickets to a ballroom dancing hall giving dance lessons. she’s had the same job 78 years.
    her name is kip shannon.
    while this may seem off topic, it’s actually not as some yankees are getting a little up there in years, but like kip shannon demonstrates, some people are exceptions to the rule.
    plus i just wanted to mention her name to let gb7 know there’s still someone out there for him.

    :)

  76. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 11:40 am

    SJ, but as I asked before, let’s say Phil didn’t show the required improvement with his change; what would have happened then? I think it’s very clear from comments last year that, despite Phil’s great success in the pen, they always viewed him as a starter. Now, when he was going to get that shot was unclear. I think if Joba had done solidly last year, the Yanks could reasonably have expected him to improve this year and then we’d have no Javy. I think under those conditions, Cash would be ok with Phil and Joba in the rotation. He didn’t, though – or at least, the Yanks had questions, so now we end up with a competition. It still somewhat depended on Phil; for all we know, despite his hard work, Phil could have come into camp with a mediocre change, indicating he needed further development. What would have happened then?

  77. Patrick March 29th, 2010 at 11:41 am

    m,

    You should listen to the Eppler interview. He flat out says that he doesn’t forsee Joba in the rotation ever again.

  78. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 11:42 am

    randy l.
    March 29th, 2010 at 11:38 am
    “Another example would be, “Randy I belongs on a golf course”.”

    gb7-

    did you see my post for you yesterday?

    randy l.
    March 28th, 2010 at 10:29 am
    on the cbs morning show watching a lady 101 years old sell tickets to a ballroom dancing hall giving dance lessons. she’s had the same job 78 years.
    her name is kip shannon.
    while this may seem off topic, it’s actually not as some yankees are getting a little up there in years, but like kip shannon demonstrates, some people are exceptions to the rule.
    plus i just wanted to mention her name to let gb7 know there’s still someone out there for him.

    ————————————————————

    LMAO. No, I hadn’t seen it. Give me some time to think up some appropriate things to say to you. I had a rough night and not at the top of my game.

  79. I like Inge March 29th, 2010 at 11:44 am

    Why does this Joba Chamberlain future role talk go on and on and on? He’s in the bullpen. The season starts in 6 days and hopefully Sunday night he’ll come in the 8th with a lead and take care of hitters. That’s his job right now. Next year is next year.

  80. G. Love March 29th, 2010 at 11:45 am

    I think the worst thing the Yankees could have done was hand Joba a rotation spot for a completely mediocre spring off a completely mediocre season as a starter last season.

    Read the writing on the wall. The Yankees know Joba needs a carrot dangled in front of him. As soon as he’s given something, he gets comfortable and coasts until he’s threatened with losing it.

    No manager wants one of his 5 starters this season to be a guy he constantly needs to threaten and handle like an insolent child.

    If Joba’s stuff were 2007-esque, they would get a Larry Bowa type to babysit him and make sure he was “properly” motivated from start to start.

    But his stuff has not been the same since the Yankees committed to him being a starter.

    Somewhere Joba decided that starters don’t throw as hard and aren’t as intense as he used to be.

    Maybe hanging around Mussina doing crossword puzzles confused the big goof into thinking he had to drink with his pinky sticking out now that he was a starter.

    He’s not the same pitcher. He wasn’t the same pitcher he was in 2007 this spring either.

    Giving the current version of Joba anything written in stone is a mistake since clearly he needs to constantly find his bottom and then like a dramatic phoenix rise from the ashes only to bottom out again.

    He’s all peaks and valley’s. You can see it.

    My prediction for the season? He’ll at some point get his stuff back to elite in the pen and then the Joba to the rotation talk will spiral out of control again.

    Hopefully, the Yankees learn from the patterns of the past and know how to handle him this time.

  81. Nick in SF in Healdsburg March 29th, 2010 at 11:45 am

    Thanks, SJ. So the ‘competition’ was an even bigger sham than thought by those who already thought it was a sham.

    This brings to mind something Johnny Rotten said at the end of the last (original) Sex Pistols concert:

    “Ever get the feeling you’ve been cheated?”

    m: I don’t see how your comment refutes the logic of my question.

  82. champ809 March 29th, 2010 at 11:46 am

    stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”)
    March 29th, 2010 at 11:08 am
    Well, that didn’t work.

    Anyway, anyone have any idea where one can find spring training stats for the minor leaguers?

    Does anyone keep them?
    **********************************************************
    Pinstripesplus.com runs a daily post of updates from the days minor league games that tells what all the pichers and position players did the previous day.

  83. randy l. March 29th, 2010 at 11:47 am

    “Depending on the count / game situation, some hitters do that”

    no patrick, they give up the fastball when they guess.

    that’s how you see hitters take mediocre fastballs right down the middle.

    for another example, think what happens when a catcher is expecting an off speed pitch and he gets a fastball.

    it always looks ugly, and the catcher always looks like he’s going to get hurt.

    i suppose you’ll get a weak swing sometimes when a hitter looks breaking ball and gets a fastball, but that’s about it.

    but if i really give the benefit of the doubt,i suppose there could be a few hitters who could look off speed and hit a fastball.

    actually it would be an interesting question for chad or sam to ask hitters on a slow day.

  84. Patrick March 29th, 2010 at 11:47 am

    Inge,

    Because it’s the only issue the Yankees have right now. Everything else is going pretty damn well wouldn’t you say?

  85. pat March 29th, 2010 at 11:50 am

    Nick

    “the coversational moratorium a year ago was on steroids, not Alex per se (IIRC). ”

    You were one of those nit picky kids who reminded the teacher they forgot to give homework, weren’t you?

    Has anyone with an opinion not already made it known with certainty and volume or is someone mysteriously holding onto the magic words that will change everyone elses mind?

  86. I like Inge March 29th, 2010 at 11:51 am

    Hell yeah it’s going just fine.

    And it is not really an issue. Chamberlain is in the bullpen. The five starters are set. The bullpen is pretty much set. There is no issue with his role. The discussion is pointless right now.

  87. Patrick March 29th, 2010 at 11:52 am

    “i suppose you’ll get a weak swing sometimes when a hitter looks breaking ball and gets a fastball, but that’s about it. ”

    Well that’s what I’m talking about. A hitter is never going to make good contact when he’s looking off speed and gets a fastball but there are plenty of times when the hitter is looking offspeed and just reacts and fouls off a heater.

  88. mick March 29th, 2010 at 11:52 am

    Stop all the theorizing and speculating, relax, sit back and enjoy some baseball.

  89. ray (sox fan) March 29th, 2010 at 11:52 am

    GB,

    Yesterday morning I added to Randy’s post and wondered if that woman might be a little too young for you. :)

  90. RayVT March 29th, 2010 at 11:52 am

    Nick in SF in Healdsburg
    March 29th, 2010 at 11:24 am
    Since more Joba talk is ok, please tell me if my logic here is wrong:

    The notion that Joba had a serious chance to win the rotation spot does not make sense in the new context of Eppler and Eiland’s remarks.

    Nick, you aren’t wrong IMO. Joba was lined up for the pen since last Fall. I believe the Yanks Brass were thinking that way, but allowed for a change in plans if Joba showed up in shape and roaring to go. That was not the case as most Yankee Brass expected. Now Plan B goes into action trying to get Joba to pitch himself into shape. Perhaps he will polish his changeup and maybe even learn the cutter from Mo like Phil did. 2010 looks bright & 2011 even brighter.

  91. Nick in SF in Healdsburg March 29th, 2010 at 11:53 am

    pat: no, I was oneof those kids who was hoping the teacher would forget to collect/check the homework. :(

    And again, there was new information added to the mix yesterday which fueled additional discussion.

  92. Patrick March 29th, 2010 at 11:54 am

    Yeah the discussion is pretty pointless but what else should we talk about? How 8 out of 9 of our starters are going to hit 20+ HR? Maybe talk about how our rotation is so deep that one of the top 5 pitchers in the NL last year is our 4th starter. Or we could discuss how ridiculous our OF defense is going to be, even if Nick Swisher is merely average.

    There’s only so many times we can gloat about how good this team looks. The Joba issue will never go away and it’s a point of contention for many people. That makes it an easy topic to get sucked into.

  93. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 11:55 am

    I thought Eppler said “in the foreseeable future”.

    He rather much bounced not being sure and being positive. First, he said he didn’t think so, then later, he said it was unlikely, and finally he said that he didn’t forsee any chance that Chamberlain would start in 2010 or 2011. Of course, then he added that it wasn’t his decision, that it was Cashman’s and Girardi’s. In the end, it isn’t his neck and he doesn’t have to answer for the decision.

  94. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 11:55 am

    Nick, are you saying you feel like you’ve been cheated by the Yankees because Joba is not the 5th starter?

  95. I like Inge March 29th, 2010 at 11:55 am

    Mick,

    There you go. I agree. Spoken like a big-time fan thinking about Sunday 8pm, not 2011 or 2012 or some other year in the Yankee future.

  96. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 29th, 2010 at 11:57 am

    “but if i really give the benefit of the doubt,i suppose there could be a few hitters who could look off speed and hit a fastball.”

    Congratulations there Randy, you’ve somehow managed to corner yourself into owing me an apology for criticizing me for something I never even actually said.

    That’s a rare, impressive feat :-)

    And just for the fun of it, Kirk Gibson famously looked slider against Eckersley, resulting in one of the great moments in baseball history.

  97. I like Inge March 29th, 2010 at 11:57 am

    Patrick,

    I like the “merely average” line… :) I never said merely average… Just average. Average is good.

  98. Patrick March 29th, 2010 at 11:57 am

    GB7,

    I don’t remember the exact quote, I’ll have to re-listen to it but I’m fairly sure that Eppler was clear in that he doesn’t forsee Joba ever starting again.

  99. Nick in SF in Healdsburg March 29th, 2010 at 11:57 am

    No, Betsy, I am not.

  100. G March 29th, 2010 at 11:57 am

    Remeber last year when the starters were getting burned and the yankees didnt have a long man and their bullpen was getting killed in the process? I dont think the Yankees need to makee that same mistake again.

  101. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 11:59 am

    Ok, I’m asking because then I don’t know what you’re otherwise referring to by that line asking if you’ve ever felt like you’ve been cheated.

  102. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 11:59 am

    ray (sox fan)
    March 29th, 2010 at 11:52 am
    GB,

    Yesterday morning I added to Randy’s post and wondered if that woman might be a little too young for you.

    ————————————————————

    You’re skating on thin ice there, buddy.

    How are things in the (sox fan) family, Ray. Hope all is well with you.

    I hear that Yaz’ favorite color is pink and you dress him with a fake diamond choker and tu-tu with matching booties.n

  103. Patrick March 29th, 2010 at 11:59 am

    Oh yeah I forgot you were the one saying Swish is average. Forgot about that.. I was just trying to show how this team is likely to excel in all 3 facets of the game.

    If you think about it, all 9 of our starters should be at least average in the field.

  104. Patrick March 29th, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    “Remeber last year when the starters were getting burned and the yankees didnt have a long man and their bullpen was getting killed in the process? I dont think the Yankees need to makee that same mistake again. ”

    Actually I don’t remember that. Ace was in the pen and he filled that role pretty nicely. Maybe you are thinking of 2008?

  105. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 12:01 pm

    Here are the printed excerpts on Eppler’s conversation.

    http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....8;c_id=nyy

  106. pat March 29th, 2010 at 12:03 pm

    Nick

    New sources does not make for new conversation, just old debate. :sad:

  107. Nick in SF in Healdsburg March 29th, 2010 at 12:04 pm

    I was referring to the sham of a mockery of a sham that was the competition for the 5th spot in the rotation.

    Not that it was necessarily impudent, of course.

  108. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 12:05 pm

    Everybody went to the plate against Eckersley looking for a slider. That’s pretty much all he had at that point in his career. A straight fastball wasn’t going to fool anybody.

  109. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    LOL Nick – sham, wow!

    I still don’t understand how the competition was a shame when Phil had to hold up his end of the bargain, but then I don’t understand why fools fall in love.

  110. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 29th, 2010 at 12:07 pm

    “I was referring to the sham of a mockery of a sham that was the competition for the 5th spot in the rotation.”

    For whom was it a sham?

  111. Nick in SF in Healdsburg March 29th, 2010 at 12:08 pm

    pat, I disagree.

    When has a member of the front office or coaching staff said in an interview something comparable to what Eppler and Eiland said?

  112. Nick in SF in Healdsburg March 29th, 2010 at 12:14 pm

    “For whom was it a sham?”

    1) For some of its participants, if they believed they had a legitimate and/or equal oportunity to win the rotation spot.

    2) For those of us who were following along. If you knew a week ago what you know now, would you still have predicted that Joba would win the spot?

  113. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 29th, 2010 at 12:15 pm

    GB,

    If that was the case, in the ACLS against Boston immediately prior to giving up the homer in Game 1 to Gibson, he gave up just 2 hits and no runs in 6 innings in 4 appearances with 5Ks.

    And during the regular season on his way to 45 saves he gave up just 52 hits in 72.2 innings with 70Ks.

    If indeed the league was looking slider that whole year against him, they weren’t doing a very good job of doing anything with their correct guesses.

  114. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 29th, 2010 at 12:16 pm

    The competition was not a total sham. If Phil Hughes had not pitched well and shown the breaking ball and his willingness to use it, and be at least somewhat successful with it, Phil Hughes would not have won the spot. UNLESS no one else stepped up either.

    I believe there were preconceived notions of where the competition might go; I believe people involved had their favorites; but I don’t think the competition was a total sham – meaning no one but one person had a chance of “winning.” I do think that 4 of the 5 would have had to have jumped through hoops of fire to unseat the “favorite” or that the “favorite” would have had to really sunk low.

    Perhaps better to call it a weighted competition.

  115. SJ44 March 29th, 2010 at 12:17 pm

    The newsworthiness of it is legitimate.

    I think though Cash’s reaction, more accurately his lack of one, is also noteworthy.

    It tells us the team isn’t as bothered by the decision as some of it’s fans are.

  116. randy l. March 29th, 2010 at 12:17 pm

    “Yesterday morning I added to Randy’s post and wondered if that woman might be a little too young for you.”

    ray (sox fan )-

    with friends like us does gb7 really need enemies ? :)

    gb7-

    i saw a sign that was for you out on the golf course yesterday:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1.....473772006/

  117. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 12:18 pm

    Nick, what do we know now? What happens if Phil had come into camp with a still mediocre change?

    Ace, Mitre and Gaudin really had to have been delusional if they actually thought they really had a shot at the 5th spot (without Joba or Phil falling apart).

  118. Nick in SF in Healdsburg March 29th, 2010 at 12:20 pm

    @Doreen: 5 competitors, each with a 20% chance to win: total sham.

  119. SJ44 March 29th, 2010 at 12:21 pm

    I think weighted competition is a more accurate description.

    The job was Hughes’ to lose and he didn’t do that.

    If it was a real competition, Mitre would be the fifth starter since he outpitched everybody.

    In effect though, Mitre outpitched Gaudin for the final pitching spot on the roster.

    That’s why calling it a weighted competition is a more apt description, IMO.

  120. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 29th, 2010 at 12:21 pm

    “1) For some of its participants, if they believed they had a legitimate and/or equal oportunity to win the rotation spot.”

    Equal opportunity is moot. There is nothing about a legitimate “competition” that requires the competitors start with equal standing.

    I suppose it’s possible that Phil Hughes could have stunk up Tampa and still have gotten the job, but if the door was open just a little bit to someone else, then it can be fairly called a competition.

    And even if it wasn’t, you really taking great exception to what might have been a motivating technique?

    This is common occurrence in pro football training camps…

    “2) For those of us who were following along. If you knew a week ago what you know now, would you still have predicted that Joba would win the spot?”

    Of course not, but I can only hope to god what my or other fans’ expectations or guesses, or even wants are is NOT a factor in the Yankees organizations decision-making processes.

  121. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 12:23 pm

    Betsy -Romine wasn’t built in a day
    March 29th, 2010 at 12:06 pm
    LOL Nick – sham, wow!

    I still don’t understand how the competition was a shame when Phil had to hold up his end of the bargain, but then I don’t understand why fools fall in love.

    ————————————————————

    Where would the world be without fools in love, Betsy?

  122. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 12:23 pm

    Doreen, I completely agree. Phil “won” this job, he wasn’t handed it on a silver platter. Joba pitched well enough aside from 2 outings to suggest that if Phil didn’t progress, he had every chance to get that #5 spot. However, Phil is absolutely considered a starter and he did improve his change greatly (not only that, but he used it even after Joe said he could just go all out and try to win – no change neeeded). I remember Joe saying not long after the competition began, after one of Phil’s starts, that it’s a matter of trusting in he and Eiland with regards to the importance of the change and that Phil trusted them. I thought at the time that was a significant statement, though I didn’t think that it meant Phil was the leader in the clubhouse.

  123. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 29th, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    I also think this. Last year after the WS, Cashman said something to the effect that Joba certainly had given them something to think about in terms of bullpen vs. rotation. To me, that made it clear that the Yankees saw Joba as a fluid piece and depending on circumstances, they could go in either direction.

    If Javy Vazquez does not become available, or is not affordable, then we’re looking at a rotation with both Hughes and Chamberlain, I believe. So the Yankees’ flexible thinking on Joba’s role “allowed” them to pursue another avenue.

    I’m not convinced a rotation that included Pettitte, Chamberlain & Hughes would have been the best thing for the Yankees because of Hughes’ innings limit, Pettitte’s age and Chamberlain’s bad track record from last season pointing to short outings. I think the bullpen would have been challenged and I’m not sure how they would have lined up the rotation in order to limit the exposure to the bullpen.

  124. randy l. March 29th, 2010 at 12:25 pm

    “Congratulations there Randy, you’ve somehow managed to corner yourself into owing me an apology for criticizing me for something I never even actually said.”

    actually , what you don’t actually even say is one of the most annoying things about you.

  125. pat March 29th, 2010 at 12:25 pm

    “When has a member of the front office or coaching staff said in an interview something comparable to what Eppler and Eiland said?”

    The day before when Girardi said Phil was the 5th starter and Joba wasn’t.

  126. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 12:25 pm

    GB, where would the world be without fools, lol?

    I like the description of a “weighted competition”. In reality, Mitre had no shot because Phil and Joba have #1 starter upside and he does not have even close to that.

  127. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 29th, 2010 at 12:26 pm

    Nick in SF -

    Yes, if you believed that 100%.

  128. m March 29th, 2010 at 12:26 pm

    JC, Nick.

    Do I need to start all my posts with a “yes” or “no”?

    I wasn’t refuting your comment.

  129. Nick in SF in Healdsburg March 29th, 2010 at 12:28 pm

    stuckey, I also said this in reference to the Yankees’ “competition” strategy:

    “Not that it was necessarily imprudent, of course.”

    (typo corrected)

  130. dsss March 29th, 2010 at 12:31 pm

    I say no to a second lefty. I think they will need long relievers who can also be spot starters. Here is my admittedly faulty reasoning:

    Hughes, hopefully, will probably start about 25 games. The other 4 starters can theoretically start about 32 games each. That gives 153 games, or 9 games short on the season.

    Andy really shouldn’t start that many, and realistically should be no more than 30, probably less. AJ has pushed it a little bit too much, for him, the past 2 years. He is a few innings from injury, and would also probably benefit from a few less starts. CC has pitched way too many innings the past 3-4 years. Even though we like to see him as Superman, he isn’t.

    If we try to limit them to 30 each, that gives only 145 starts- 17 starts short of a season. This doesn’t count the post-season or injuries. Assuming Hughes can pitch effectively over a season, I think they are going to need both an effective Aceves and Mitre, and possibly even Joba.

  131. RayVT March 29th, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”)
    March 29th, 2010 at 11:57 am

    It’s one thing to guess an off-speed pitch & get it, but to look offspeed by design is wrong. A hitter looks fastball 1st & adjusts unless they decide to just guess a pitch. If a hitter is looking changeup or curve and a fastball comes he has almost zero chance. The opposite allows much more opportunity to geta hit no matter what the pitch.

  132. JohnC March 29th, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    Anyone know the early weather forecast for the opener in Boston on Sunday?

  133. Wave Your Hat March 29th, 2010 at 12:35 pm

    Has there been any discussion of what the Yanks will do with Hughes until his first start rolls around?

    The Yanks will start the season 12 pitchers but there’s no way 8 guys will have enough work until the 5th starter is pitching in regular rotation.

  134. Nick in SF in Healdsburg March 29th, 2010 at 12:35 pm

    JC = Joba Chamerlain?

    Doreen: I did not believe that any %, but I believed the competition between Joba and Phil to be more legitimate — or less ‘weighted’ — than it now seems it was. Shame on me.
    pat: I don’t think I can respond to you without being nit-picky.

  135. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 29th, 2010 at 12:36 pm

    “actually , what you don’t actually even say is one of the most annoying things about you.”

    What am I not actually even saying now…???

    :-)

  136. tex's friend March 29th, 2010 at 12:36 pm

    with pettitte getting no work in again, yankees should consider pushing him back to the start on friday in tampa and letting vazquez pitch the 3rd game, since he has been able to get regular warm up work.

  137. RayVT March 29th, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    GreenBeret7
    March 29th, 2010 at 12:05 pm
    Everybody went to the plate against Eckersley looking for a slider. That’s pretty much all he had at that point in his career. A straight fastball wasn’t going to fool anybody.

    Yeah! Kind of like looking for a knuckle-ball from Wakefield. Eck’s slider was about the same speed as his fastball in his later years. That allowed a hitter to look zone more than a pitch.

  138. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 12:38 pm

    randy l.
    March 29th, 2010 at 12:17 pm
    “Yesterday morning I added to Randy’s post and wondered if that woman might be a little too young for you.”

    ray (sox fan )-

    with friends like us does gb7 really need enemies ?

    gb7-

    i saw a sign that was for you out on the golf course yesterday:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/1…..473772006/

    ————————————————————

    LMAO. Maybe this is what Orville was protecting me against. Perhaps he thought that it was me that was safer in Vietnam than on a golf course, and not the other people.

    I love subtle signage like that almost as much as bad puns. I’ve got to save this one. Thanks, Randy. I have a ton of them on the computer, but, no way to link some of them on here.

  139. m March 29th, 2010 at 12:41 pm

    SJ,

    What would’ve happened if both Joba & Hughes fell flat on their faces, and Aceves was, well, Ace?

  140. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 29th, 2010 at 12:42 pm

    “It’s one thing to guess an off-speed pitch & get it, but to look off-speed by design is wrong. A hitter looks fastball 1st & adjusts unless they decide to just guess a pitch. If a hitter is looking change-up or curve and a fastball comes he has almost zero chance. The opposite allows much more opportunity to get a hit no matter what the pitch.”

    Ray, I agree with this 100%.

    As I say, Randy (as is his habit) didn’t understand what I originally write, and mischaracterized it and criticized me for it. And then a few minutes later walked it back and somewhat agreed to what he was criticizing me for writing, despite me never actually having wrote it.

    I was just bringing up Gibson for the fun of it.

    I believe there are rare instances where hitters can guess off-speed (in a game where 4000-5000 pitches are thrown a night every night for 26 weeks, of course it happens), but as a rule I believe hitter look fastball, react to curve.

    Always did.

  141. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 12:43 pm

    Wave, no; I don’t think they’ve come to any decision as of yet. I suspect Phil will not be going to AAA as Sherman had mentioned that the Yankees don’t want him away from the major league staff, but that’s just a gut feeling.

  142. RayVT March 29th, 2010 at 12:43 pm

    BTW, Gibson was a tremendous low ball hitter & Eck’s fastball was normally high & his slider down in the zone. That played into Gibson’s guess too as he could run on his bum legs in the WS that year.

  143. randy l. March 29th, 2010 at 12:44 pm

    “Gibson steps out of the box again. The drama is thick. As he taps his helmet, he thinks back to what Dodgers scout Mel Didier said in his scouting report on Eckersley before the Series: At 3-and-2 against Eckersley, “look for the backdoor slider.”

    http://74.125.113.132/search?q.....ent=safari

    stuckey-

    thanks for pointing out gibson was looking for a pitch ( slider) and he got it, though that doesn’t do anything for proving your point that some hitters look off speed and then hit fastballs.

    but thanks for having me check gibson’s at bat.
    that was a good in depth baseball story.

  144. G. Love March 29th, 2010 at 12:45 pm

    Doreen,

    If the Yankees went into this season with Pettitte, Hughes and Joba as the 3-4-5, it would destroy the bullpen in April and May and the team would constantly be trying to catch up from that choice.

    Cash learned the lesson from 2 seasons ago. You need pitchers in the rotation who can give you innings and length.

    He’s willing to use the 5 spot as a wild card of sorts to break in a young starter, but he’s not going to bet 2 spots in the rotation on wild cards anymore if he can help it.

    It’s why Mitre probably makes the team with Aceves should injuries hit the rotation. They don’t want to be trolling for Ponson’s anymore.

  145. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 29th, 2010 at 12:46 pm

    Ray, yeah, I recall there was a few factors that went into Gibson looking for the pitch and location, at least according to Gibson’s account of it 20 years later, which might have some fish story elements to it as this point :-)

  146. m March 29th, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    Breaking News! The Yankees are the Biggest Spenders!

    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/.....top,230688

    Quite a feat considering the roster sizes.

  147. SJ44 March 29th, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    M,

    Good question. I don’t think they know at this point.

    Wave,

    Girardi said last week he’s inclined to not skip any of the Top 4 guys because if the off days and get Hughes ready to pitch the fifth game of the season.

    Obviously, that’s subject to change.

  148. Erica - always OPPC - Sesame Street Mafia and GTLU supporter March 29th, 2010 at 12:48 pm

    Darryl Strawberry was fired last night on Celebrity Apprentice

  149. m March 29th, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    SJ,

    Girardi’s lucky that Phil stuck with the plan!

    Thinking about it, they’d probably send Joba to the bullpen. Phil to Scranton to wait by the phone for the first call up.

  150. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 29th, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    “thanks for pointing out gibson was looking for a pitch ( slider) and he got it, though that doesn’t do anything for proving your point that some hitters look off speed and then hit fastballs.”

    I suspect that might have something to do with the fact I never made that point, which if you go back to the original exchange is made perfectly clear to everyone and anyone but someone wanting to try to manufacture something really, really badly.

  151. m March 29th, 2010 at 12:50 pm

    Erica,

    Failed drug test? :(

  152. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 12:51 pm

    Baseball should have started already.

  153. RayVT March 29th, 2010 at 12:51 pm

    stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”)
    March 29th, 2010 at 12:46 pm

    LOL! I use to live in Michigan & heard many stories about Kirk Gibson. He was a tremendous athlete. I saw him kill our Yankees (& Angels too) time & time again on low pitches. Most other teams pitched him high in the zone.

    But in the WS, he couldn’t run and could hardly use his legs to swing they were so bad. He went up there looking to hit a HR. He got a pitch & he hit it. Great guess & really it was almost his only option. He took advantage of Eck’s pinpoint control & killed it with his arms.

  154. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 12:52 pm

    SJ, would the Yankees have given the #5 spot to Phil if he hadn’t developed his change? If he hadn’t progressed well enough, Joba would very likely be in the rotation, so it’s not like the Yankees had this plan to definitely put Joba in the pen in the hopes he’d regain his form. There was the definite possibility that Phil’s change wouldn’t be good enough to win him the job.

  155. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 12:52 pm

    RayVT
    March 29th, 2010 at 12:38 pm
    GreenBeret7
    March 29th, 2010 at 12:05 pm
    Everybody went to the plate against Eckersley looking for a slider. That’s pretty much all he had at that point in his career. A straight fastball wasn’t going to fool anybody.

    Yeah! Kind of like looking for a knuckle-ball from Wakefield. Eck’s slider was about the same speed as his fastball in his later years. That allowed a hitter to look zone more than a pitch.

    ————————————————————

    Eckersley was never a real fireballer in the first place. He had a decent one, but, almost always to set up his breaking stuff. With his control, it was more than enough. It was strange just how fast he lost so much that he became a “failed starter” wasn’t it? Quite a career. I think that he and Smoltz are the onlt two pitchers with more than 150 wins and 150 saves. Pretty exclusive club.

  156. Bronx Jeers March 29th, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    I love how Cash is totally fine with Eppler’s comments.

    From the New York Times

    “In the old days, George Steinbrenner might have fired Eppler on the spot, or at least muzzled him. Now, in the paintball-and-pool-hall era, Cashman said Eppler will “absolutely” be allowed to do more interviews.”

    Actually, I’m okay if Eppler just does his job quietly.

    And Cash seems fine with dissenting opinions these days as long as there from his guys. If it was Connors or another member of the Tampa old guard?

  157. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 12:55 pm

    Why should Cash be ok with dissenting opinions from Tampa? Tampa (George) had the power to overrule him…..which would completely emasculate him as GM.

  158. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    On a more positive note, I can’t wait for Hughes starts this season. His change looked really good in spring and I just wanna see what he does with it during the season. I’m gonna fist pump the first time he gets a swinging K with that bad boy.

  159. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    Oops, I didn’t mean that to come out the way it sounded, Bronx…

  160. upstate kate March 29th, 2010 at 12:57 pm

    think how long the off season would be if your team didn’t make the play offs

  161. Nick in SF in Healdsburg March 29th, 2010 at 12:57 pm

    Betsy, I didn’t mean to ignore your questions.

    To be clear, I am not denigrating Phil in any way or suggesting that he doesn’t deserve the chance he’s getting.
    To the contrary, it seems clear that the team’s confidence in Phil was just as important as its lack of confidence in Joba in deciding how to proceed in 2010.

  162. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 29th, 2010 at 12:58 pm

    Ray, I’m still amazed at the fact that Gibson won the MVP in ’88 with the numbers he had. Not criticizing, I just can’t imagine that we’ll ever see another MVP year like that – .290/25hr/76 rbi.

  163. upstate kate March 29th, 2010 at 12:58 pm

    like in ’08

  164. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 12:59 pm

    As long as Phil doesn’t fist pump, I’m good with that, Jerkface. I don’t mean that as a knock on Joba, but I prefer his quieter way of doing things – the way Mo does. He did forget that he struck out Tex in 2007 with a change, but he probably wants to forget that night. I don’t blame him, lol. I went back and reviewed the game thread from that night and all it did was get me depressed. However, I then went back and reviewed the game thread from my birthday in September 2008 when he dueled AJ; that made me feel better.

  165. m March 29th, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    When’s the last time Connors or another old guard member went on the record?

    Anyway, I suspect if they did so in such a fashion, Cashman would let it be.

  166. Frank March 29th, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    “It was strange just how fast he lost so much that he became a “failed starter” wasn’t it?”

    Strange? Didn’t he pretty much drink himself into oblivion over his time in Boston and Chitown?

  167. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 29th, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    G. Love

    I agree, but I think they’d have done it if no Javy Vazquez or equivalent was available. They did not go hard after Lackey, if I recall correctly. So cost was a factor.

    Also, by getting Granderson, one of Melky/Gardner became expendable.

    No Granderson, we might be looking at an entirely different situation right now.

  168. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 1:01 pm

    RayVT
    March 29th, 2010 at 12:51 pm
    stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”)
    March 29th, 2010 at 12:46 pm

    LOL! I use to live in Michigan & heard many stories about Kirk Gibson. He was a tremendous athlete. I saw him kill our Yankees (& Angels too) time & time again on low pitches. Most other teams pitched him high in the zone.

    But in the WS, he couldn’t run and could hardly use his legs to swing they were so bad. He went up there looking to hit a HR. He got a pitch & he hit it. Great guess & really it was almost his only option. He took advantage of Eck’s pinpoint control & killed it with his arms.

    ————————————————————

    Gibson was just animal strong and went down and out and hooked that pitch into the right field stands. He was as much a great athlete, with the same tools as Bo Jackson. Had they given up football after high school and concentrated on just baseball, the sky was probably the only limit they had.

  169. Doreen - 2010 GTLU March 29th, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    So far I have Erin and upstate kate in GTLU. If anyone else is interested, you have until 1:30 to submit a lineup. Thanks. :)

  170. pat March 29th, 2010 at 1:03 pm

    NickSwisher Wow! 6 days, 7 hours, and 11 minutes away from the Yankees home opener, that’s VERY soon! Who’s ready?
    7 minutes ago via web

  171. randy l. March 29th, 2010 at 1:04 pm

    stuckey-

    it’s just fun catching you making mistakes like when you think some elite hitters in baseball today look off speed and react fastball .

    like i said al oliver is the only one i know who said he did that.

    now, i will give you that it is possible that you could find someone who says they do it now.

    it would be a very interesting discovery.

    had any luck so far?

  172. m March 29th, 2010 at 1:05 pm

    Has the GTYOPDR closed yet? If it’s still open, it’s kind of like filling out a bracket during the Final Four.

  173. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 1:06 pm

    Nick, I was kind of asking SJ because he said all along that this was Phil’s job to lose. Since he definitely could have lost it if his change didn’t came along, clearly Joba could have ended up the #5. This would throw a wrench into the Yankees plans to have Joba in the pen – if that’s what they really wanted. IF that is what they wanted, then the Yanks got lucky that Phil’s changed developed so quickly. The same way you should never ask a question that you don’t want the answer to, the Yankees shouldn’t have put themselves in this situation where Joba would end up in the rotation and Phil wherever (if it’s true they felt Joba belonged in the pen this year).

    I know you were not denigrating Phil at all; I had just wanted some clarification on your cheating comment.

  174. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 1:07 pm

    Wow! 6 days, 7 hours, and 11 minutes away from the Yankees home opener, that’s VERY soon! Who’s ready?

    No, Swisher, your math is wrong!

  175. Erica - always OPPC - Sesame Street Mafia and GTLU supporter March 29th, 2010 at 1:07 pm

    m
    March 29th, 2010 at 1:05 pm
    Has the GTYOPDR closed yet? If it’s still open, it’s kind of like filling out a bracket during the Final Four.

    *****************

    It never officially started. Erica is WAY off her game

  176. GC March 29th, 2010 at 1:08 pm

    I’ve already beaten the Joba issue to death so I’ll spare everyone my continued wrath. But just about everything this organization has done in the last three years aside from developing its young starters has been exceptional, and thats reflected in #27. Nothing however makes me more angry than incompetence and a bunch of 40 year old men who I can sense that despite their baseball “pedigrees” don’t have a single clue what they are talking about. And this one decision has made it a lot easier for me to be interested in what goes on for the rest of the New Jersey Nets season than what goes on for Spring Training and the beginning of the season.

    It’s pure idiocy, plain and simple. But hey, idiots are entitled jobs too I guess!

    I personally think last year should have been Andy’s farewell tour. I think he emptied the tank in the second half and playoffs and would not be surprised if his year is an utter disaster. But don’t worry guys, we have the great SERGIO MITRE to back him up!

  177. SJ44 March 29th, 2010 at 1:09 pm

    Betsy,

    as it turned out, if Phil failed to win the job, Aceves, not Joba, would have been the fifth starter.

  178. Nick in SF in Healdsburg March 29th, 2010 at 1:11 pm

    I was really just relating a thought that popped into my head when I quoted the great Johnny Rotten about feeling cheated, not baring my innermost heart, fears, and frustrations.

    :superhappygrin:

  179. GC March 29th, 2010 at 1:12 pm

    SJ,

    If that’s the case, I have to seriously question the intelligence of every decision maker in this organization. Wow. Just wow.

  180. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 1:13 pm

    SJ, really…that’s interesting. Then clearly the Yankees felt that Joba was not ready/capable of being a full time SP in 2010. Hmm, frankly I never ever thought it was more than a 2 pitcher race between Phil and Joba; I never thought Aceves would be the 2nd choice instead of Joba.

  181. Erin March 29th, 2010 at 1:14 pm

    pat
    March 29th, 2010 at 1:03 pm
    NickSwisher Wow! 6 days, 7 hours, and 11 minutes away from the Yankees home opener, that’s VERY soon! Who’s ready?
    7 minutes ago via web

    ********************
    I am! :)

  182. SJ44 March 29th, 2010 at 1:14 pm

    I’m sure these “idiots” won’t have a problem getting their WS rings next month.

    They aren’t idiots. Far from it.

    The bottom line is, it’s too early to call their decisions “failures” since both Hughes and Chamberlain are still early in their careers AND are contributing to the team.

    It’s difficult to develop pitching. Nit all prospects have a straight upward development curve. There are often bumps in the road.

    That’s why making emotional judgments make little sense.

  183. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 1:15 pm

    GC, I disagree; that actually makes me feel good about the organization. It tells me they had a plan for Joba and they were going to stick with it no matter what. If what SJ says is true, the competition was really about Phil. I wonder if Phil would have been sent to AAA if he’d not developed the change enough; probably not. I guess then he would be in the pen with Joba. Wow, talk about a firestorm then. Oh well, fortunately things worked out the way the Yankees wanted.

  184. GC March 29th, 2010 at 1:15 pm

    SJ, I’m asking this earnestly, do you think anyone in the organization ventured to consider that for the first four months of the season it was Joba, not AJ Burnett, not CC Sabathia, not Andy Pettitte, who was the most valuable starting pitcher on this team?

    Do those first four months mean absolutely nothing?

  185. SJ44 March 29th, 2010 at 1:17 pm

    Why? Joba hasn’t pitched well enough for a spot in the rotation.

    Why is that so diificult to handle?

    Let’s get him back to what he was THEN worry about his future role.

    Right now, you would be hard pressed to find ANYBODY in the Yankee organization, Cashman included, who think Joba is capable right mow of being a consistent starting pitcher.

    That’s why he is in the bullpen.

  186. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 1:18 pm

    Someone in the Yankees organization is doing something right, lol. Both Joba and Phil have had success in their brief careers; so what about their struggles? Guess what? That’s life. I don’t think any player in the history of baseball has has gone through their career without hitting a pot whol. Also, you learn more from failure than success. I absolutely believe that Phil and Joba will be better pitchers because of the bumps in the road they’ve experienced.

  187. m March 29th, 2010 at 1:19 pm

    See? That’s an example of grown men getting emotional over Joba’s fate. Seriously, his career’s not over. Or in danger.

    They’re the New York Yankees, not the New York Jobas.

  188. randy l. March 29th, 2010 at 1:19 pm

    from what i’ve read about eppler, he seems like a good young addition to the management team.

  189. Bronx Jeers March 29th, 2010 at 1:20 pm

    “Anyway, I suspect if they did so in such a fashion, Cashman would let it be.”

    Sure, he might have. But I doubt he’d be calling for more Connors interviews with the media.

    Anyway, Cashman won that “war” years ago and I doubt Hal has a big problem with any of this but I think he’d probably like it to quietly go away. There are still premium ticket packages available. :wink:

  190. Frank March 29th, 2010 at 1:20 pm

    “SJ, I’m asking this earnestly, do you think anyone in the organization ventured to consider that for the first four months of the season it was Joba, not AJ Burnett, not CC Sabathia, not Andy Pettitte, who was the most valuable starting pitcher on this team?”

    You’ve got to be kidding.

  191. randy l. March 29th, 2010 at 1:21 pm

    for all we know , eppler might be the next yankee gm when cashman eventually leaves.
    he seems like he’s paying his dues.

  192. GreenBeret7 March 29th, 2010 at 1:21 pm

    GC
    March 29th, 2010 at 1:08 pm
    I’ve already beaten the Joba issue to death so I’ll spare everyone my continued wrath. But just about everything this organization has done in the last three years aside from developing its young starters has been exceptional, and thats reflected in #27. Nothing however makes me more angry than incompetence and a bunch of 40 year old men who I can sense that despite their baseball “pedigrees” don’t have a single clue what they are talking about. And this one decision has made it a lot easier for me to be interested in what goes on for the rest of the New Jersey Nets season than what goes on for Spring Training and the beginning of the season.

    It’s pure idiocy, plain and simple. But hey, idiots are entitled jobs too I guess!

    I personally think last year should have been Andy’s farewell tour. I think he emptied the tank in the second half and playoffs and would not be surprised if his year is an utter disaster. But don’t worry guys, we have the great SERGIO MITRE to back him up!

    ————————————————————

    After your early morning rants, I figured that you had used up your share of stupid, but, you must have tapped into a new reservoir.

  193. Nick in SF in Healdsburg March 29th, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    But there are also many examples of grown women getting emotional about pitchers not named Joba. So what have we learned?

  194. SJ44 March 29th, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    Joba wasn’t the most valuable pitcher on the team the first four months of last season.

    That’s fanboy talk not rooted in any fact.

    Which is why debate on this subject is so fruitless because some folks are just unable to separate emotion from reality.

  195. GC March 29th, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    I guess I’m just in the camp that says he shouldn’t have needed to “compete” for a rotation spot in any sense of the word to begin with. He was a good starter in the AL East last year until restrictions got to his back and all things considered put up a very similar stat-line in rate stats to our number two starter, AJ Burnett.

    Check out their walk, home run, and strikeout rates, particularly considering Joba’s numbers until he began collapsing against Boston on August 6th. In his first season as a starter he looked like a young Roger Clemens, in his second he did a pretty good imitation of AJ Burnett. And that gets him demoted to an essentially useless role on this team?

    Also, I can’t take credit for noticing the similarities between Joba and Burnett last year in terms of their rate stats-an intelligent poster from River Ave. Blues raised that issue and it caught my eye.

  196. GC March 29th, 2010 at 1:24 pm

    On August 1st Joba Chamberlain had a 3.58 ERA. That was the best ERA on the team by a solid margin. He was the best pitcher on the team in preventing other teams from scoring runs. He was worlds better than Burnett and Pettitte and better than Sabathia by a hair.

  197. SJ44 March 29th, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    Randy,

    Billy is a real sharp guy. Hard worker and reall handles both the scouting side and the sabermetric side of the game equally well.

    He’s definitely a rising star in the game.

    IMO, he will be a GM somewhere someday.

  198. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    AP: 127.2 IP 13-8 (8-6) 4.51 ERA
    AJ: 127.1 IP 14-6 (10-4) 3.53 ERA
    CC: 148.0 IP 11-11 (10-7) 3.84 ERA
    JC: 110.2 IP 14-6 (7-2) 3.58 ERA

    This is the records of all 4 pitchers through July. Team Win-Liss (Pitcher Decisions)

    Joba and AJ were the MVPs of the first half, AP and CC MVPs of the second half

  199. Betsy -Romine wasn't built in a day March 29th, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    I missed that rant the first time; I’m sorry I caught it on the 2nd go-round, lol.

  200. Bronx Jeers March 29th, 2010 at 1:27 pm

    Johnny Rotten?

    I thought you were quoting Woody Allen! :lol:

  201. SJ44 March 29th, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    He was pitching 4 and 5 innings in his starts! His ERA is meaningless.

    That’s why he wasn’t the “best starter on the team”, despite the hysterical fanboy rantings.

  202. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 1:30 pm

    He was pitching 4 and 5 innings in his starts! His ERA is meaningless.

    Simple math gives the average IP per start as 5.2 IP and 93 pitches per start.

    So not quite!

  203. Erin March 29th, 2010 at 1:30 pm

    New Post: Lineup today in Sarasota

  204. Erica - always OPPC - Sesame Street Mafia and GTLU supporter March 29th, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    new thread :arrow:

    Line up!

  205. SJ44 March 29th, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    Pretty creative way of deciding the guy who pitched the fewest innings as a starter was the team MVP. lol

    Sort of like the floating Dave Eiland Grading System.

    Neither rooted in much logic.

  206. GC March 29th, 2010 at 1:33 pm

    If you don’t count his 0.2 inning start cut short by the line drive, he pitched 110 innings in 19 starts. That is an average of 5.7 innings per start, not 4 or 5 innings.

    Yet I’m the hysterical irrational fanboy.

  207. m March 29th, 2010 at 1:33 pm

    Nick,

    That’s passion!

    Seriously, I don’t hope that a player does bad so they can go to Scranton or get traded.

    And I certainly wouldn’t threaten to go watch the Nets because of what the front office has done! Seriously!

  208. SJ44 March 29th, 2010 at 1:33 pm

    Jerkface,

    you are really reaching now. Lol

  209. stuckey (”its ok to agree to disagree”) March 29th, 2010 at 1:34 pm

    “it’s just fun catching you making mistakes like when you think some elite hitters in baseball today look off speed and react fastball.”

    Far be it for me to spoil your fun. So make it worse for me. Revel is my ineptitude. You have my open invitation.

    Embarrass me further by quoting my mistake?

    Please…

  210. mick March 29th, 2010 at 1:35 pm

    Enough already Joba this, Hughes that. It’s a team , forget the individual soap opera that makes your life bearable.

  211. GC March 29th, 2010 at 1:35 pm

    “And I certainly wouldn’t threaten to go watch the Nets because of what the front office has done! Seriously!”

    Hah. No worries, its not an empty threat. I’ve somehow managed to miss only 5 or so games on TV this year and have gotten to the Arena at least 15 times. You wanna know something sad? In those 15 or so times this year I still haven’t seen a win.

  212. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 1:36 pm

    I am merely posting the stats. Its quite clear that AJ and Joba were the winners in the 1st half. The team won most of their starts. CC’s biggest boon was his innings. Andy got 1 out more per game than Joba in the first half and gave up more runs and threw more pitches to do it.

    I guess you’re the fake SJ or something.

  213. SJ44 March 29th, 2010 at 1:37 pm

    Oh, I get it. We just parse the stats to take out the games you don’t like.

    Yes, anybody who is trying to sell Joba was the best starter on the staff the first four month of the season, as you are trying to do, is a hysterical fanboy because that POV is not rooted in any fact.

  214. champ809 March 29th, 2010 at 1:37 pm

    I happen to disagree that Ace had any real chance of being the 5th starter.

    As Ca$h has stated this wasn’t just about the 2010 Yanks but also the team going forward and Aceves is not in the teams long term plans as a starter.

    The Yanks wanted either one of Joba or Phil in that spot and embarking on their future to the front of the rotation and phil got the nod.

    as an aside what a shame for Alan Horne….torn rotator cuff will have surgery and miss the whole season. Wow talk about no luck

  215. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 1:38 pm

    SJ44, you’re the one who mistakenly said he only went 4 or 5 innings every game. He averaged more than that.

    Or is baseball-reference wrong? Maybe you should ask your scouts how many ‘real innings’ he pitched in the first 4 months.

  216. Wave Your Hat March 29th, 2010 at 1:39 pm

    Here’s the game logs for Joba in 2009. I don’t see how the game logs suppirt a claim that Joba was a first half MVP for the Yanks. SJ is right.

    http://www.baseball-reference......;year=2009

    This is a case of being misled by ERA.

  217. GC March 29th, 2010 at 1:39 pm

    SJ, really? A game in which the team panicked and pulled him after 0.2 innings after getting hit by a LINE DRIVE should be counted against him? That furthers my status as your “irrational fanboy?” Come on dude.

  218. SJ44 March 29th, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    You are posting stats with no foundation.

    Did the team win those games after Joba departed those starts? Did they come from behind?

    That does make a difference.

    Just posting the team W/L record in his starts doesn’t tell you much about his contributions to those wins.

  219. SJ44 March 29th, 2010 at 1:42 pm

    Jerkface,

    you are flat out wrong the guy was the first half MVP. Look at his game logs.

    But hey, come up with another bogus stat to make your point.

  220. Wave Your Hat March 29th, 2010 at 1:43 pm

    Take a look at Joba’s WPA (Win Probability Added) for his 15 starts through June 30th. 11 out of 15 are negative.

  221. champ809 March 29th, 2010 at 1:43 pm

    the facts are the facts. At the end of July Joba had the second lowest era on the team 2nd to CC.

    He was being limited to 100 pitches and routinely pitched into the 6th or six solid.

    He was top 10 in era in the AL at that point and his era balloned when he they began the 2 and 3 inning “starts” which made no sense at all for him or the team.

    Obviously if Wang is healthy the whole season in the #2 spot then last year would have been handled differently imo. That impacted how everything played out.

  222. GC March 29th, 2010 at 1:44 pm

    I fail to see anything in his game logs contrary to the point. Did he have a couple of terrible truncated starts? Absolutely. Did he ever in any start other than the one against Cleveland in April NOT KEEP THE TEAM IN THE GAME? Don’t think so. And he was also brilliant at times.

    Kept team in game? Check. Averaged almost 6 innings per start? Check. Posted 3.58 ERA? Check again.

  223. SJ44 March 29th, 2010 at 1:45 pm

    BTW, since my sources told me in January Joba was going to be in the bullpen this year, I find them a lot more reliable than you trying to tell me he was the MVP in the first half of the year.

    That doesn’t even pass the laugh test.

  224. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 1:46 pm

    I said AJ and Joba were the starting MVPs of the first half, if ERA is good enough for the Twins, I’d say its good enough for this blog.

  225. Wave Your Hat March 29th, 2010 at 1:46 pm

    Actually, GC, the game he came out after .2 IP was one of Joba’s four starts through June 30th where he had a positive WPA. If you take that out he only had three + WPA starts in that time period.

  226. GC March 29th, 2010 at 1:46 pm

    I respect your sources. Turns out you were right. But what the hell does one thing have to do with the other? You are grasping at straws just as much as I am.

  227. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 1:47 pm

    Guys who were obviously NOT the MVP: Andy Pettitte, Chien Ming Wang

  228. Wave Your Hat March 29th, 2010 at 1:49 pm

    By my quick count Joba averaged about 5 1/3 IP through June 30th. IMO that’s not great.

  229. mick March 29th, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    You guys just love to argue, while we are all entitled to our opinions, really who cares? BTW I agree with SJ, he is an objective, informed fan and stats or not Joba is where he belongs, gut feeling.

  230. mick March 29th, 2010 at 1:51 pm

    How about Jeter for MVP. Joba 1st half MVP, surely you jest. No pitcher was MVP, for the season, on this team.

  231. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 1:53 pm

    Joba was ahead or tied in 11 of his 20 starts through July.

    2 of the games he was down by 2 because he gave up 3 runs in 6 IP, a quality start.

    He got through 6 IP his first start on 88 pitches.

    Joba did good, even if it wasn’t 2008 Joba in the first half.

  232. Wave Your Hat March 29th, 2010 at 1:58 pm

    If you want to count July then Joba had a negative WPA in 13 out of 20 starts. That’s more to the point than whether Joba was ahead or behind when he came out of games. The Yank offense might have had a little to do with that.

    Next you’ll be telling us how important wins and losses are when evaluating a pitcher.

  233. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 2:03 pm

    Joba’s WPA was only ever below -.10 3 times.
    He kept the team in the game, and thats all you can ask. He got negative WPA for games in which he gave a quality start. WPA is a crappy stat because its based on the probability of winning a game. Give up 3 runs and the offense scores 1? You’re getting a bad WPA. Its a fine pitching performance though!

    Andy Pettitte’s WPA in losses/bad games was above -.15 only 3 times.

    AJ Burnett crushed everyone in WPA though .800 through July, CC had .500

  234. Jerkface March 29th, 2010 at 2:06 pm

    And Joba averaged 5.2 IP per start @ 97 pitches. You give Joba the 110 pitches that Andy Pettitte or the 120 that AJ and CC get and you might see a guy that is pitching 6, 6.1, 6.2 IP per start.

  235. mick March 29th, 2010 at 2:16 pm

    Joba was sloppy and erratic. Blow the stats out yer arsenal. How did we judge pitchers before sabre-stats, I don’t know. Give Joba Andy’s head then compare them.

  236. jake March 29th, 2010 at 2:47 pm

    Aceves
    Robertson
    Logan
    Marte
    Chamberlain
    Park
    Rivera

    Logan has pitched well this spring, hasn’t he?
    And why be too concerned about losing Mitre? He’s really never been very good.

  237. jake March 29th, 2010 at 2:56 pm

    Since i am dumb, I’m hoping someone can explain:

    Why do you care about Mitre? ST stats don’t mean squat and the guy has been a terrible ML pitcher over the course of his career. Does he have a new pitch? Why will he better better in 2010 than he’s been in the past?
    The Yanks have Melancon in AAA. They’ve got McAllister down there, too. They’ve got pitching depth.
    I don’t get it. But I’m dumb. Can someone smarter than I am explain this?

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