Help in a pinch
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Apr 19, 2010 
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The Yankees are a team of superstars, and no matter how many infield singles Brett Gardner has, this will still be a lineup built on Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez and Mark Teixeira. But the bit players have played well.
Francisco Cervelli
You can’t see his face, but you tell by the helmet that’s Cervelli in the picture on the right. He’s on the bench for his work behind the plate — ask CC Sabathia how good he’s been back there — but Cervelli has also provided some offense in his two starts. He has three RBI and a .500 average in six at-bats.
Marcus Thames
After an awful spring training, Thames has shown why the Yankees wanted him on the bench. He’s started against every lefty, and he’s hit .500 with a .600 slugging percentage. He’s not great in the field, but so far his bat has made up for it.
Ramiro Pena
As long as everyone is healthy, Pena is not going to play much this season, and the Yankees will be happy with him as long as he lives up to his defensive reputation. But when he started in place of Jeter on Sunday, Pena came through with a two-run single.
Brett Gardner
Let’s face it, there are plenty who don’t consider Gardner to be a legitimate everyday outfielder, and the Yankees are clearly setting a platoon standard in left field. Gardner, though, has gotten the most out of his tools. When he swings, he makes contact, and that’s led to more walks than strikeouts. He has a .333 average, a .444 on-base percentage and seven stolen bases.
Randy Winn
Hard to do much when you don’t play. Winn has one start and he went hitless. So far, it seems that his primary role will be as Nick Swisher’s defensive replacement in the late innings. He’s played in eight games and has just six at-bats.
That’s an Associated Press photo.
When you have four hitters with a >.950 OPS (another over .935) four starters pitching well, and Mo, the players occupying marginal roster spots look a whole lot better.
“Gammons isn’t wearing dark shades of mourning… he was just visiting Iceland scouting some prospects with plus reindeer herding skills.
He’s kept the ash on the glass as a remembrance of things past.”
————
very nice CB
I am not saying the Sox are a great team or anything of the sort-
But I think decalring the 2010 season over for them is a bit premature.
How many bad Aprils have Yankee fans endured the last few years?? Even the mighty 1998 team was off to the terrible start the first week.
I don’t think the Sox are a great team and I am not sure they have the talent to go all the way this year- so don’t jump down my throat. What I am saying is that its too soon to start dancing on the broken hearts of Sox fans.
After all- don’t we always say, “It’s a marathon, not a sprint?”.
You don’t win anything for the best record in April
“You can’t see his face, but you tell by the helmet that’s Cervelli in the picture on the right”
Randy Winn
Hard to do much when you don’t play. Winn has one start and he went hitless. So far, it seems that his primary role will be as Nick Swisher’s defensive replacement in the late innings. He’s played in eight games and has just six at-bats.
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As it should be
Very nice, CB, as well.
REPOST
And another big game tonight, involving the fan-less Brooooooooooooooooooooooooons!
Let’s hope the referees tonight dont take into account what happened at Fenway Field today, on the faux holiday Patriots Day, and cheat the other team.
Rob NY
You’re more than welcome to disagree. I love veterans and veteran’s day and Memorial day, it is my biased POV, that’s all.
I dont like their made up garbage, like the Beanpot Final, in NCAA Hockey, where a Boston team has to win.
They invent championshiips to boost their ego.
CB, I think you’re on to something.
Gammons is saving the ash, but why?
Could it be useful against a certain smoke monster?
“When he swings, he makes contact”
And that’s really the key to Brett Gardner. So long as he manages to make contact at high rate (which he is) and Kevin Long can keep him from going through long stretches where he pops up, he’s going to get on base with his legs and by walks (he’ll foul off enough pitches to work counts), he’ll get on base better than 35% of the time.
If the guy ran even less than 1/5 as fast as he does, he probably couldn’t hit his weight, but he does run that fast.
And the more he can hang around and get his ABs, the more experienced he’ll become and maybe we will learn to hit just a little.
“He’s kept the ash on the glass as a remembrance of things past.”
Proust reference?
CR9– It’s all good. Patriots day is a free day off too so I can’t complain.
Smoke monster… or a tender love of a good madeleine…errr… chocolate glazed donut?
Ashes and fried sugar…the poetry of the island.
Boston will not be able to rid themselves of the $12.5 due each of Ortiz and Lowell this year which puts them in a quagmire. They can’t continue to think they can ride on the backs of Pedroia and Youkilis with little help elsewhere particularly from the farm system.
They’ll be forced to trade any upper echelon prospects because the free agent class of next year offers nothing of significance after Crawford and Werth are signed elsewhere. They’ve signed all the high money starters they’ll sign for awhile so Cliff Lee is out of the question in Boston.
Papelbon will make nearly $10M in his final year of arbitration this winter unless they deal him and pin their hopes on Bard as their closer. They have no choice but to sign Victor Martinez.
No thank you, Brian Cashman is a universe ahead of Theo Epstein.
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.c…..-2011.html
Boston’s 3-4-5 hitters
VMart batting .212
Youk batting .217
Ortiz batting .158
Erica,
I agree with you, Especially given that the Yankees played so poorly in April last year and went on to win the World Series.
Folks here, at least I hope, are just having some fun and don’t honestly expect the Sox to play this level this rest of the year.
That being said, they have some real holes on their roster and they are already looking up six games at not one, but two teams expected to contend all year long. Not good.
Based on what I’ve seen from Gardner the last couple of days, I want no part of Crawford for 5 yrs and big $$$. No reason to spend $15 million on a guy who can give you similar production for 400K and is 3 years younger.
“# Jerkface April 19th, 2010 at 2:03 pm
The rays have a couple of factors troubling them:
- Their stadium is bad ( i like it, but its not a real baseball stadium)
- Their stadium’s location is bad (you have to drive through Tampa and all its horrible traffic, and then go across a 5 mile bridge to get to St Pete, traffic is terrrrible)
- Their fans are obnoxious with cowbells and horns
- Their parking situation is horrendous and public transportation doesn’t really exist in Florida
If they built a stadium outside of Tampa inbetween Tampa/Orlando it’d probably draw a lot better. Their waterfront park looked cool but I don’t know how feasible that was.
”
I agree, it could be an ‘acceptable’ baseball market but it will never be a good baseball market. Football is king in Florida and much throughout the country….honestly Baseball has turned into a Regional Sport, very popular in the North East and a few other select cities(st. louis and Chicago) but if a team is not going to compete, attendance will be bad in just about any city. Attendance is down throughout all of MLB early on so far this season.
Erica
Reasonable minds understand that. As my mom used to say, it’s all fun and games now until someone starts crying.
Erica, have you been watching this version of the Sux? Have you been watching Big Floppy AB? Have you seen what’s happening with VMart and Varitek and the flip flopping of the catching? Have you noticed who’s catching Beckett’s games? The team is a mess.
Do you know how many games they’re out of first right now? Do you see the teams in front of them?
I don’t see any way, with the players they currently have and the problems they are having, that they have the horses to make up the games they are losing.
I write them off continually because I’m always a lot higher on Yankee teams. So I don’t ever worry about them. But seriously this year they are a mess. I could almost feel sorry for them.
I don’t watch Mets baseball at all so I look at the comments from people who are really familiar with the Mets to know what is going on. I know that the Sux are contenders in our division, but not everybody takes the time to actually watch all of their games. A lot do I think, but not all. I watch their games.
I’ll be stunned if they can patch things up and pull it together.
JMO
I’m rooting for Gardner. Run, Brett, run!
This post highlights the big difference between the Yankees and Sox. Our stars are better than their stars.
I think the Sox are where the Yankees were in 2008. Waiting for big, albatross contracts to expire.
They’ve got issues now, and holes to fill in the very near future as their key positions are old and on short-term deals. There’s not enough money and/or prospects for them to field a team as good as the Yankees have set up for the next few years.
The Sox have been frugal at times, and save for 2 times in recent history it hasn’t paid off. And even then, was it being frugal? Manny was making mad money, and Ortiz wasn’t too far behind.
I said this the other day, the Sox have spent $177M, but they haven’t spent it wisely. Good luck with that.
Jerkface April 19th, 2010 at 2:03 pm
I am very familiar with what you are saying as I lived over a year down there from April 2008 till Sept 2009. The bridge is a huge issue. But during the last couple of months of the 2008 season the Rays were packed. The owner was excited & even tried to upgrade payrolls in 2009. (Some bad choices though.)
They are still looking at building a new ball park. With an increase in attendance and product sales they will increase budgets some to get them over the top. (Note contracts that expire and are partial yr salaries are their real options.)
Gardner has surprised me so far, and Cervelli is the man!
Boston SHOULD have a better week coming up. Toronto, Baltimore and Texas. I think Texas will play better than they did against us. Toronto and Bmore? Who knows. The sox will be competitive eventually so everyone needs to beat them down now.
Sloppy Ploppy! Where is the loveable guy, the ESPN and media declared face of baseball NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let me correct myself again.
I feel horrible watching the Sox struggle.
Love the picture of Cervelli in his Gazoo helmet
did the big Pap UP homer today on Patriots day?
rconn, I don’t think they are going to play at this level all year, no. But as you said, making up those games against the Rays and the Yankees is probably not going to happen, especially with their team as configured.
Not having Jacoby Ellsbury is REALLY hurting them.
“Based on what I’ve seen from Gardner the last couple of days, I want no part of Crawford for 5 yrs and big $$$. No reason to spend $15 million on a guy who can give you similar production for 400K and is 3 years younger.”
I’ve been speculating about this for weeks, but even I want to see him do it for a half a year at least.
I think he can (well, not at his current small sample size level, but good enough) , at which time, fans are going to have to seriously consider the pricetag in the LF equation next year.
Trisha-
I understand their holes. I also remember the black hole that was the Yankee bullpen last April. And we won the world series. I don’t remember exact details, but I know we were also quite a few games back.
Its EARLY in the season. Trades can fix holes. I don’t really think the Sox have the talent right now, but its WAY too early to declare anything over for them
“there are plenty who don’t consider Gardner to be a legitimate everyday outfielder”
There sure are. They’re either spoiled, impatient, or simply think baseball is a great, big home run derby.
Jon K April 19th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
Gardner is not even close to Crawford. Not even in the conversation! Crawford is really good. So is Werth. I expect RSox to go after Werth big time next year & try to sign him early to raise Crawfords price with the Yanks.
Haha, oh man. If you want a good laugh, follow Jose Canseco on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/JoseCanseco
“I think the Sox are where the Yankees were in 2008. Waiting for big, albatross contracts to expire. ”
And that can work out well once Joe Mauer and Roy Halladay hit the free agent market… or something like that.
Joe Mauer was the pivotal guy for the sox but he was always going to resign with the twins.
Practically speaking given the upcoming several free agent winters and the lack of power hitting prospects in their system, the Sox must trade for Adrian Gonzalez. He represents an opportunity that will not be available again for several years. Even prince fielder is not on Gonzalez’s level due to defense and how they might age.
But I don’t know if they have the pieces to outbid all of the other teams lining up to get Adrian Gonzalez.
In the 5th inning, McAllister is still getting behind and throwing a lot of pitches out of the strike zone. In the last 3 innings, he’s thrown 56 pitches and 21 out of the strike zome.
Montero was charged with a error on a catcher’s interference.
Scranton still leads, 1-0.
McAllister with 5 innings, 3 hits, 0 runs, 0 walks, 2 strikeouts.
On average, the Yankees? 2009 gate receipts for a seven game home series were greater than the Pirates? gate receipts for the entire year.
Strange, but true: at this moment, the Yankees may have already earned gate receipts in excess of what the Pirates will see for all of 2010 It is mid-April, yet in the race for baseball gate receipts, the Pirates have already been eliminated.
http://itsaboutthemoney.net/ar.....-uccess-2/
“Gardner is not even close to Crawford. ”
He is not. You are correct.
But their comparative ratio in 2011 salary will still far outpace their comparative talent ratio, large as it is, which is kinda the point.
Jerkface April 19th, 2010 at 2:27 pm
On average, the Yankees? 2009 gate receipts for a seven game home series were greater than the Pirates? gate receipts for the entire year.
Strange, but true: at this moment, the Yankees may have already earned gate receipts in excess of what the Pirates will see for all of 2010 It is mid-April, yet in the race for baseball gate receipts, the Pirates have already been eliminated.
http://itsaboutthemoney.net/ar…..-uccess-2/
****************
What a waste of that beautiful stadum
G-Munny: I don’t think Gardner is an everyday player and it has nothing to do with spoiled, impatient, or thinking homeruns are the end all be all. I’m not sold Gardner can get on base at the rate he did in the minors despite the luck he has had with infield hits the past week.
cb,
could they just take the yankees path with cc and wait for a-gon to be a free agent?
they can still outspend teams, and the yankees won’t bid for his services
I think the Yankees have their eye on cc. It would be good to go a season without giving a huge contract, but it’s not their M.O.
No amount of GGBG greatness will stop them from pursuing him. If another team gets involved or if it becomes cost-prohibitive then they could always bow out. He’s not a Tex/Alex type of player.
GGBG will still be an asset to the team, he just has to keep being ‘The little Ferrari that could’.
“User Image
bk888888 wrote:
Darn it, I already had a great nickname for Theo’s fantastic addition to Sox history: Hitless Bill Hall, as in “hey you remember that guy back in ’010 – what was his name? Oh yeah, Hitless Bill Hall”"
This was after Bill Hall’s meaningless hit!
HAHA
Good one!
Nunez singled to lead off the 6th but Dickey got the next 3 hitters
Pete is just racking up the negative comments on his up until now unpopular blog.
And the Sox poor play has allowed him to delve into the darker side of his talents.
… good times never seem so good …
stuckey April 19th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
Ok! I don’t think the Yankees will go that path though. I think Gardner either fits the 4th OF mold or gets traded to someone looking for a speedy CF like KC seemingly always is doing. I think the Yankees have several Gardy types in AAA & AA now that could fill the role of SB threat and good glove & perhaps even better.
I really think we as fans need to start a “RUN BRETT RUN!” chant every time that Gardner is on base.
It would absolutely torment the opposing pitcher and team and is far better than doing the wave but not better than entire stadium of fans doing the “wop”.
Whether or not they want to pursue Carl Crawford isn’t only an issue of the marginal difference between Crawford’s production vs. cost compared to Gardner’s.
Much of their decision making on whether to upgrade LF will depend on how they evaluate Jeter, Posada and ARod will continue to produce as they age.
People often talk about “depth.” But when you are trying to win a championship depth isn’t primarily a matter of back up players.
It’s about having a deep starting team – a team that can absorb the lost production of an older veteran either getting hurt or precipitously declining.
That’s going to be a significant concern as to what the Yankees do in LF moving forward. It’s not simply an issue of financial efficiency of Crawford vs. Gardner.
G. Love,
Or the alternative, “SEE BRETT RUN!” :p
Winfree plays a leadoff fly ball out into a double .
Stuckey, you have no idea why I posted that. For some reason, you assume that I’m tempering expectation for Phil so I won’t be disappointed and you are dead wrong. If you want to have sky high expectations for a #5 starter who hasn’t started in a year and who is a year away (by the Yankees’ estimation) from being fully developed, that’s up to you. You keep saying hes a ML pitcher – so what? There are expectations for players depending on their stage of development.
“could they just take the yankees path with cc and wait for a-gon to be a free agent?”
Gonzalez isn’t likely to make it to the market. Because of his salary this year and next he is just too attractive to not trade for.
He’s likely going to get dealt and there is a significant chance the team that trades for him will be able to sign him if they pony up the money.
Too much of a risk to wait for if you are the Sox.
“I understand their holes. I also remember the black hole that was the Yankee bullpen last April. And we won the world series. I don?t remember exact details, but I know we were also quite a few games back.”
Seriously? The Yankees were 7-6 at this point last season, 2.5 games out. At the end of April they were 2 games out. You may be thinking of the bullpen as a black hole but they obviously weren’t inflicting enough damage to make it unruly. And they were without Alex also, and still doing well. The Yankees had a stellar starting rotation and an offense that wouldn’t quit. The Sux are currently 6 games out of first, and they have a questionable offense, a rotation that can’t get off the ground, major problems with catching, and a bullpen that is also questionable.
If the Sux had all of the pieces in place but weren’t getting the job done, the way a very good Cleveland team started off several seasons ago, that would be one thing. The pieces are missing. That’s the dangerous part.
“Its EARLY in the season. Trades can fix holes. I don?t really think the Sox have the talent right now, but its WAY too early to declare anything over for them”
Trades can fix holes but the trades have to be out there for them to make them. Right now they are in a vulnerable position because teams know they are desperate. So nobody has to capitulate since the Sux don’t really have anything good to offer up.
As rconn said, they won’t likely be playing this poorly all season. I don’t think anyone thinks that, not sure. But I truly think they have far too many issues to be able to resolve them all.
I think we will agree to disagree on this one. I’ll be surprised if they make it as high up as third place.
I don’t know your definition of “declaring anything over” for them. What exactly do you mean? That they’ll still win some games? That they’ll contend? What does that mean to you exactly?
if gardner has a good full year and the yankees win, they may decide to put it all into Cliff Lee and not bother with Crawford.
Based on roughly 40 plate appearances Gardner is now equal to Crawford? Oh brother.
I’ve never been a huge Crawford fan and believe he’s very overrated (been saying it a couple of yeas now) but Gardner isn’t in the same class as Crawford. Not. Even. Close.
I’ve been saying that about the Sox all along and I have not danced on their grave one bit. However, when I say that the division will be a dog fight, people react like it’s an offense to think the Yankees won’t dominate.
“I?ve been saying that about the Sox all along and I have not danced on their grave one bit. However, when I say that the division will be a dog fight, people react like it?s an offense to think the Yankees won?t dominate.”
Betsy, I know I don’t think that. I believe that the Yankees will totally dominate, but I don’t consider it the least bit offensive that others may not see it that way. Just a difference of opinion.
McAllister gave up a deep sac fly to tie the game at 1-1. Should be his final inning. 6 innings, 4 hits, 1 run (earned), 0 walks 2 strikeouts. 99 pitches, 67 strikes, 32 balls, 5 ground outs, 10 fly outs.
Not sure if he really pitched as well as the numbers say, though.
Montero grounds out. 1-3 today.
CB April 19th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Great point CB as always!
raymagnetic April 19th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
Based on roughly 40 plate appearances Gardner is now equal to Crawford? Oh brother.
I’ve never been a huge Crawford fan and believe he’s very overrated (been saying it a couple of yeas now) but Gardner isn’t in the same class as Crawford. Not. Even. Close.
====
If only the Yankees got to play Texas every series.
Trish, I wasn’t aiming my comment at anyone in particular. It’s just that it’s ridiculous for people to claim that saying the Yankees won’t dominate is being negative..
“No amount of GGBG greatness will stop them from pursuing him.
I fail to see how the production they get from LF THIS season won’t factor at all into their plans for LF next season and beyond?
To me this smacks of the thinking the Yankees will pursue the shiny new toy in an utter vacuum.
Trisha-
Here’s exactly what I am saying-
Does Erica think the Red Sox are going to win the World Series? No
Does Erica think the Red Sox are going to be a sub-.500 team all season? No
Does Erica think the Red Sox are going to improve to be a real competitor in the AL East? Yes
Now I have spent way more time and energy discussing the Red Sox than I prefer so I am done with this topic. I just wanted to make sure I was as clear as possible
“Stuckey, you have no idea why I posted that. For some reason, you assume that I’m tempering expectation for Phil so I won’t be disappointed and you are dead wrong.”"
It has a little something to do with the fact that you revisit that same sentiment at least several times a day.
But that said, there really is no reason to take it (or anything for that matter) personally.
” If you want to have sky high expectations for a #5 starter who hasn’t started in a year and who is a year away (by the Yankees’ estimation) from being fully developed, that’s up to you.”
Who said I did? There is a lot of room between considering him a Cy Young candidate and an apprentice starter.
“You keep saying hes a ML pitcher – so what? There are expectations for players depending on their stage of development.”
Right, and he’s no rookie.
Its a long season.
However, if you lose too much ground to NY and Tampa early in the year, you need a lot of firepower to get back in the race later in the year.
Even the most optimistic view of this Red Sox team is that its not a firepower laden lineup.
Meaning, fall too far behind, and you have to upgrade the club via the trade market to stay in contention all year.
Either that or hope injuries hits the Yankees and Rays.
Does Erica talk to herself ?
Yes.
“Based on roughly 40 plate appearances Gardner is now equal to Crawford? Oh brother. ”
Who has implied that and when exactly?
really think we as fans need to start a “RUN BRETT RUN!” chant every time that Gardner is on base.
It would absolutely torment the opposing pitcher and team and is far better than doing the wave but not better than entire stadium of fans doing the “wop
___
Or if he does the ‘pitchers got a big butt’ dance everytime he is on first.
MTU (aka GBURL) April 19th, 2010 at 2:48 pm
Does Erica talk to herself ?
Yes.
*************
Hahahaha. I have a random tendancy to revert to third person on occasion
Is it at all possible the Yanks will only go for 1 or 2 high priced pitchers next year?
Depending on GGBG LF performance, of course?
Boston’s real screw up was not having a backup for Cameron / Drew. It is inexcusable that BILL HALL is playing Centerfield. Those two are hurt every year. Theo HAD to know that. He couldn’t predict Ellsbury getting hurt – that’s not his fault – but he should have had a better backup plan for Cameron and Drew than Hitless Bill
Maybe I should hold my breath waiting for ESPN and/or the MLB network holding Theo’s feet to the fire for that one. Oh wait…that’d only happen if it were the Yankees. The Sox are the $160 million dollar little engine that could.
stuckey,
I love me some Brett Gardner, but I don’t truly believe he will develop into a line-drive hitter.
He’s a slap hitter (kinda like that Ichiro guy, lol) and crazy fast.
He does have a good eye, very good.
I love me some Brett Gardner, and would be happy if they passed on cc. But I don’t think they will. They let melky go, and I think there will be a time when they let Gardner go. (tear, tear…)
It has a little something to do with the fact that you revisit that same sentiment at least several times a day.
===
Hey there, Stuckey.
Your ardor for Brett Gardner, and the super human energy you use up with posts about him exceeding people’s low expectations, frankly blow any kind of fangirl Phil thing Betsy has going on.
Something you have revisited over and over and over again.
For those interested-
New York Magazine has a very interesting article on Sabermetrics
http://nymag.com/news/sports/65493/
Yankee Great Ron Davis on with Mike Fran
Sanit pitched the 7th. Winfree put him in a hole when the batter hits an easy pop fly that he had to take three steps on. raised his glove and the ball hit the middle of his glove and fell out. A 2 out single to right and Curtis through out the runner trying to go to third. A foul out and end of inning.
Thanks, Uncle,
I’ll listen in the car (haven’t turned on Fracesa in ages, but I always liked Davis).
Think GB7 said Ike was his kid (think it was GB7, any way).
I love me some Brett Gardner, and would be happy if they passed on cc. But I don’t think they will. They let melky go, and I think there will be a time when they let Gardner go. (tear, tear…)
====
m,
I don’t see why they should let him go. He’ll likely resume his role off the bench. He’s very vaiuable in a limited role.
Ok, we’ll just have to agree to disagree, Stuckey. He’s no rookie, but he’s an inexperienced starter. Let me ask you: just what kind of season do you expect Phil to put forth?
no problem Bodi
I just found that out today – give me a reason to watch los metros
““Based on what I’ve seen from Gardner the last couple of days, I want no part of Crawford for 5 yrs and big $$$. No reason to spend $15 million on a guy who can give you similar production for 400K and is 3 years younger.”
Stuckey,
Is the above quote which you wholeheartedly agreed with implicit enough for you?
Bodh, lol, thanks. I don’t have a fangirl thing going on by the way, though.
LOL wake me up when Francesca decides the Yankees are worth talking about.
bodhi,
I meant down the road, following the same timeline they did with Melky.
Erica thanks for clearing that up. I don’t think you’re too far off from what a lot of people have said. Except for then competing part. I’d ask you what you mean by “a real competitor” but you’ve already given strong indication that you are not open for anymore questions.
I on the other hand never tire of discussing the downsides of the Sux. So anyone who wants to keep analyzing their weaknesses, I’m here!!!
“Trish, I wasn?t aiming my comment at anyone in particular. It?s just that it?s ridiculous for people to claim that saying the Yankees won?t dominate is being negative..”
Betsy, I knew you weren’t singling out, but I wanted to agree with you that it is ridiculous for anyone to term anything less than Yankee domination as being negative.
No doubt if Gardner has a big year it will influence Yankee thinking on Crawford.
Pitching is still the name of the game and will remain top priority.
Betsy
What you just said about Francessa deciding that the Yanks are worth talking about struck a chord with me. It seems that the NY sports media only wants to talk about the Mets and how bad they are. It’s like they can’t figure out how to talk positively about a team that looks like a steamroller.
That bugs the heck out of me – but at least it looks like I have company!
Francesca
======================
Why do you insist on spelling his name wrong?
“Boston’s 3-4-5 hitters
VMart batting .212
Youk batting .217
Ortiz batting .158″
———————
who cares about avg or offense though?
what’s their UZR, RF, Def Eff, and how much do they add to team chemistry??
let’s focus on the important stuff.
Boston Dave
Best laugh of the day!
GGBG, the Mets are all the rage, lol. It’s kind of sad. With Francesca, there’s always a more interesting topic than the Yankees…
youk is still an asset on D. Martinez offers nothing if he isnt hitting, and Ortiz, well he is a DH minus the H.
“Your ardor for Brett Gardner, and the super human energy you use up with posts about him exceeding people’s low expectations, frankly blow any kind of fangirl Phil thing Betsy has going on.”
You got two problems Bod. I’ve made it clear repeatedly I don’t know if Brett Gardner will be in the majors in two years, I’ve merely been pointing out where the bar actually needs to be set for him to be productive, which I don’t know if he’ll meet, quite frankly.
Your second, more glaring problem is assuming I criticized Betsy for revisiting the ‘Phil Hughes is a young starter’ repeatedly. I did not.
Even a cursory mastery of reading comprehension would make it clear I was explaining why I responded to her the way I did in my first post.
I have NO problem if she wants to repeat the sentiment again and again. But I do reserve the right make some observation based on that FACT.
Francesca
===================
Were you a spiteful child?
“wake me up when Francesca decides the Yankees are worth talking about.”
Talk radio is about debate and there is nothing to debate about them.
The Great Ike Davis is the talk of the town.
Francesa discussing the Yanks all day, that’s the ticket.
Golson singles and steals 2nd base with 2 outs
Miranda hit by pitch
Winfree makes up for his bad defense today with an RBI single. He couldn’t stand it though. He took a shot at going to 2nd base, but, he was only out by 30 feet…end of inning.
“New York Magazine has a very interesting article on Sabermetrics”
define”interesting”
looks like the same old propaganda.
dewan is a fraud.
the red sox are doing well with his ideas though
“Is the above quote which you wholeheartedly agreed with implicit enough for you?”
“Wholeheartedly agree?”
You mean where I suggested we all slow down on said sentiment and let’s see Gardner do it for a half year first..?
That one you mean?
I’ve also made it perfectly league I do not believe Gardner is in the same league as Crawford (the times I’ve said it quite directly should be a clue). The point I’ve been trying to make that even though they aren’t in the same league, their respective salaries and effect on the payroll/roster should NOT be thrown out entirely.
Garnder isn’t nearly the same player – there I said it again. But Gardner won’t make NEARLY as much.
Why is it because Crawford IS a better player, how much both make is somehow not an issue?
Why do you care that people don’t wanna talk about the Yankees? what is there to discuss? Whether they win the division by 10 or 15 games? They have all the best players and they have thebest team. there is nothing to discuss except for misguided spoiled fans booing Nick Johnson and Vazquez.
Their are 2 types of people JIM Mason, those who talk about baseball and those who live for Yankee winning baseball.
In very limited time both Frankie Cervilli and Ramiro Pena have contributed both at bat and with their gloves. As the season moves along and the schedule piles up they will get additional time.
The less the Yanks are talked about, the more the haters are suffering.
The only thing they have to say is how we buy everything we need.
And we don’t even hear that these days.
Francisco Cervelli
Kick em when they’re up,
Kick em when they’re down.
Dirty laundry.
Chad
Yankees don’t have bit players, they leave that to the NL teams, thank you very much!!
Corona makes an outstanding barehanded grab of a grounder up the middle at 2nd and threw the runner out.
Nunez makes a great stop at short, in the hole and almost threw the runner out. really close play.
1 out, runner on, bottom of the 9th, scranton leads 2-1.
Ring is pitching
passed ball on Montero. totally boxed the pitch
ground out, runner stays at 2nd
Melancon pitching
walk…Chris Carter coming to bat. danger…danger, Will Robinson.
Carter smokes a sinking liner to right field that Curtis catches off of his shoe tops.
Game over.
THE YANKEES WIN!!!! THEEEEEEEEEEE YANKEES WIIIIINNNNNN!!!
2-1 with Sanit getting the win and Melancon the save. Assist to Curtis.
stuckey,
what kind of contract do you think Crawford will get in the offseason, from whoever?
curious how expensive…
randy l. April 19th, 2010 at 3:10 pm
“New York Magazine has a very interesting article on Sabermetrics”
define”interesting”
looks like the same old propaganda.
dewan is a fraud.
the red sox are doing well with his ideas though
***********************
Erica’s definition of “interesting”-
. So that’s interesting enough for me!!!
As someone who didn’t actually know what sabermetrics was before reading the article- I now know
bodhisattva – Destiny Wears Pinstripes April 19th, 2010 at 2:53 pm
Thanks, Uncle,
I’ll listen in the car (haven’t turned on Fracesa in ages, but I always liked Davis).
Think GB7 said Ike was his kid (think it was GB7, any way).
———————————————————————————————————————-
Yeah, Ike Davis is Ron’s kid. Talk about being different. one is a relief pitcher and right handed and the other is a slugging first baseman and does everything left handed.
BD, can’t say I’ve looked for any comps, but I’m sort of been assuming a minimum of $13m (I tend to estimate conversatively), and given his age, an absolute min of 5 years.
Werth seems like a perfect Red Sox type player
He is a grinder, scrappy, and just looks like a baseball player
He is an OBP machine and sees a ton of pitches, Youkallis-like
He also has monster power… hit 36 HRs last year.
He is also a winner and comes from a winning organization and is used to pressure and performing in October.
Unfortunately, I think he is going to be a Sox.
It was an interesting article Erica. I think most of us are smart enough to know what to take from it and what not to.
If you did find it interesting, it doesn’t really encompass that much of ‘sabermetrics’ / baseball statistics, and I’m sure there are more comprehensive articles out there… if anyone has a suggestion…
Question: Can the Yankees find a use for Ortiz ?
Answer: Yes. He can be added to the groundskeeping crew when they sweep the infield and do their Y.M.C.A. routine.
GB7
he was also a starter and reliever in college.
Wilson,
I’ve been suggesting Werth to every Sox fan I talk to.
Of course I’m also suggesting trading Ellsbury ASAP while or if he still has some value so Werth would fit into the LF spot next season.
I also suggested an all out assault to get Adrian Gonzalez too.
They have no power in sight. Those 2 guys would immediately alleviate that problem.
Pedroia
Youk
Adrian
Werth
wouldn’t be a bad 2-5 at all.
Obviously that’s if they find a genie in a bottle right now. Getting it done is the hard part.
now erica , how could you, after all the discussions on the blog about sabermetrics over the past few years ,not know what it is ?
hey, that must mean you skip over some of us
Werth is a grinder, scrappy and a winner. What does any of that actually mean? Honestly I think they are all synonyms for “white”
There’s also an espn movie about the origins of fantasy baseball on tomorrow. You know, if you’re into that kind of stuff.
Berkman or Dunn would be a nice addition for the Sux.
Stuckey,
That sounds about right, I think, especially if the Yanks are the ‘winners’.
Considering the type of player he is and his defense, along with the fact he’ll be one of only a small handful of top notch free agents, I think he’ll get those 5 years.
Mike Cameron and Adrian Beltre are “Sox kind of players” too.
Let’s not waste our time predicting how many FA’s the Red Sox are going to sign this off-season.
What happens if the Phillies re-sign Werth by mid-season? Not impossible since they are still talking.
You know the Red Sox are in trouble when fans are already talking about next year’s free agents.
Problem is, we have only played TWO weeks of this baseball season.
Way too early to write off anybody, even though its fun to see the Sox struggle out of the gate.
I could also see the sox looking at Dunn, but not as their first choice by any means.
Ken & others,
Stop trying to do Theo’s job of fixing the Sux!
GB – Or they might want to play the 9th inning.
Yankees bases loaded with one run in and no out. Montero another hit to go along with his first homer of the year.
Donnie Collins who took over Chad’s old job in his game post says that Montero’s bat is really special.
Not necessarily – Jimmy Rollins has been described in those terms as well.
Patrick,
sad if true.
I’m happy just calling Werth “Paul Bunyan”.
I don’t know where “scrappy and grinder” come from.
I’m skipping ahead, but I just wanted to say, Erica, I’m with you.
I’d be wary of writing anyone off in April, no matter how bad they look. It’s a very long season.
I seem to remember a certain 0-8 situation that fueled the idea by some last season that the Yankees just wouldn’t be able to get past Boston. I take it as a cautionary tale.
At any rate, the Yankees, I’m sure, are only worried about the Yankees. If they continue to TCB (and stay healthy), they’ll be fine.
trisha – OPPC member who sees, hears, and knows all. 28 is on its way!!!!! April 19th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
Francisco Cervelli
************************
to this.
I have to add my own
I think crawford is getting more than 13 per year.
He’s going to be the premier FA on the market.
His style of play mirrors this new era of baseball.
I think you are going to see him get a minimum of 5/80 if the big market teams are in on him.
“You know the Red Sox are in trouble when fans are already talking about next year’s free agents.”
Well, to be fair, we are discussing Carl Crawford our ownselves.
As long as Epstein clings to the idea that he’s going to get quality bargains at The Dollar store, Boston isn’t going to fix their issues. Three for the price of one is great unless you’re buying good ball players.
SJ44,
do you think he’s a good signing at 5/80 (and if that’s a minimum, perhaps 6/100 to close the deal) ?
SJ44,
You are closer to the business side of baseball than I am but I think Crawford is really overrated by some people and I don’t think he’ll get more than 5/65. He’s a world class athlete, a great fielder and a weapon on the basebaths but he’s not really an impact hitter. Even with his stellar speed he’s slightly above average at the plate.
Have the sox ever had a “come-from-behind” season?
The yanks have had several “come-from-behind” season, most notably 1978, but last year as well.
But my memory only goes back to the 1970s, and I can’t remember the sox ever staging a comeback campaign.
Oy, $16 million a year for Crawford? I wouldn’t have done that for Holliday….I’m not interested in giving that to CC
GB7 it sounds like based on your play-by-play that Montero had a bad day defensively behind the plate. You referenced a blown pop-up and a passed ball…has he looked better on other days and this was just a rough outing for him, or has this been the norm for him defensively so far this year?
5 iron, it looks like I missed an inning or it was just an automatic reaction from watching the big kids playing.
Sorry about the confusion.
The difference between the Yanks last year and their 0-8 start vs the Sox,
and this years Sox team…
is that the Yanks were clearly underperforming and there was really no reason for it, minus ARod missing 30 games.
The Sox need to hope Ortiz hits, JD Drew hits, and their catchers learn how to throw?
There are clear problems with the Sox that the Yankees of 2009, aside from the bullpen (thanks Phil, Ace, and David), didn’t have.
BD,
Yes. I think he’s a great player and I think he fits into a lineup well when he’s not the featured guy.
Imagine an OF defense of Crawford and Granderson? No balls get in between them in the gaps. Pitchers will LOVE pitching to contact with guys like that behind them.
I also think the way Girardi likes to play the game, Crawford’s style of play fits in well.
He’s got a good rep as a good guy in the game and is an extremely hard worker.
He fits what they are trying to do. Especially as the core guys get up in age.
The field turf he plays on in Tampa is easy on his body. So, there are no leg or lower back injuries common to guys that have played on turf for a long time.
All in all, he’s the perfect guy to have if you are looking to upgrade LF in a big way.
m
Did you see the E:60 on ESPN about sports paparazzi- athletes beware?
First Tiger picture post accident had a $1M bounty and 1 picture of Alex and Kate from last year went for $50K.
Someone should have told me I could make more $$ with a camera than a diploma.
“I think you are going to see him get a minimum of 5/80 if the big market teams are in on him.”
$16 a year? Whoa… Possible I guess.
I don’t see him being worth that to the Yankees. I think they’d need for a black hole to exist in left AND rightfield AND see some major attrition outta Jeter or A-Rod. All of which is in the realm of possibility, however, though thus far (very early) not yet materializing.
If Werth is off the market, then you figure the Red Sox are going to be hot for Crawford too, no?
I remember Verducci? or maybe Heyman said the Sox AND Yanks were hot for Crawford this pas winter, for next year.
I the Sox enter the bidding, what will automatically raise his price.
GB – Just poking a little fun.
Besides the inning makes the Yankees look better. They are tacking on several runs (a few of which were walks with the bases loaded) and Montero got his second hit of the game.
I agree with Patrick.
I would love to have Crawford but he’s not the type of impact hitter you’d expect from the premier free agent.
I do think he’s fairly safe to be effective and stay close to his averages for the 5 years, so it probably wouldn’t be some albatross contract.
But it’s not like he’s the guy you want up with 2 outs in the 9th with the game on the line.
Can the Yanks afford Crawford AND Lee?
Not necessarily ? Jimmy Rollins has been described in those terms as well.
–
Which is funny because of his lack of grinding out at bats and plate discipline and on base.
Patrick,
The Rays people think he will get as much as 16-18 million a season. They would sign him if he was only going to get 13 million a season.
He’s considered overrated by the stathead community because of his low OBP. There is more to the game than OBP.
By the people in the game, they believe he may be the best all around LF in baseball.
The Rays people even think his best baseball is yet to come as he turning on more pitches than he used to.
His body is in great shape and he is athletic enough to play productively throughout the life of his contract.
The guy is a great player and is going to cash out bigtime in the off-season.
“I’d be wary of writing anyone off in April, no matter how bad they look. It’s a very long season.”
doreen-
the red sox will come back in a lot of areas- hitting, starting pitching, etc, but the one place they have a fundamental flaw that can’t be fixed easily is that they can’t control other teams running games.
victor martinez will not hit well if teams are running wild on him and that’s because he’ll carry his
throwing woes over to his hitting. nothing makes a catcher feel worse than teams running on him.
it’s a macho manhood thing. nothing makes a catcher feels worse . the pitching staff has to start slide stepping. they get annoyed. downward spiral with teammates.
i expect the red sox to make a blockbuster trade or series of trades sooner than later and reshuffle the deck because they aren’t going anywhere with martinez and varitek catching and ortiz in the 5 hole.
randy l. April 19th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
now erica , how could you, after all the discussions on the blog about sabermetrics over the past few years ,not know what it is ?
hey, that must mean you skip over some of us
***************
It’s not you I am skipping over- its the conversation
I professionally deal with numbers so when I see people fighting over the validity of them it kind of makes my eyes glaze over… lol
SJ44,
Crawford/Grandy does sound nice, doesn’t it?
I like Crawford because I think he’s low risk, but like you said he’s not going to be the featured guy.
Awful lot of $$ for that. I hope Gardner makes it a tough decision at least (considering his contract – I realize he’s no Crawford).
Andrew, Montero has had a really bad day defensively. His error was on a defensive interference call on a swing.
For his career (over 1,000 games), Crawford is hitting………..
.306 with RISP
.294 with RISP 2 outs
.413 with the bases loaded
.396 with man on 3rd, less than 2 outs.
He is a guy I want up with the game on the line
BD, I agree; he’s just not a $16 million a year player. Let them be creative and find a less expensive option. We don’t need Crawford to win.
Folks have to remember what free agency is. Its a bidding war.
If a guy has multiple suitors from big markets, the numbers are going to rise bigtime.
Mark Teixeira may not be a 180 million dollar player dollar for dollar.
But, with Boston and NY bidding on him, that’s what he became.
That’s the way it works. Fans want to lowball all FA’s to try and fit them into their favorite teams’ budgets.
However, if bidding is strong on a guy, as it will be with Crawford, IMO, he’s going to get big money.
Melancon gives up a homer to the leadoff batter in the 9th.
It’ll be interesting to see if Pujols goes on to the market after 2011.
I see Pujols’ contract north of Mauer $23 per year, which makes me wonder if he goes north to RSN.
I don’t know; the day when a Crawford is considered a great player is a day when we’ve devalued the meaning of the word “great”.
pat,
No, I didn’t see it. But it’s no big surprise. Papparazzo are scum. I get that they have a job and a niche to fill, but their tactics are stalkishly distrurbing.
Either Jeter is very careful or very innocent.
The failure to sign Mark Texeria is going to haunt the BoSox for many years to come……Their woes are a direct correlation to the Texeria debacle……The tale of two franchises ( December 2008 )…….They’re still a good club with outstanding pitching , however they have flaws , and they suddenly have become an old club
“Can the Yanks afford Crawford AND Lee?”
—————–
and Jeter and Mariano.
the answer is probably YES… but not if they want to continue to lower payroll or even keep it in line with 2010.
Many Yanks salaries will go up in 2011, Granderson from $5M to $8M, for example.
They’d need to cut down on guys just to keep 2011 the same as 2010.
“the red sox will come back in a lot of areas- hitting, starting pitching, etc, but the one place they have a fundamental flaw that can’t be fixed easily is that they can’t control other teams running games.”
They have another major problem. If the early returns keep and they’re going to be near the bottom of the league in BB’s drawn, they’ve got problems, particularly on the road.
The Rays can slug and run. The Yanks can slug and OBP (and run a little). The Sox are going to slug as much as either or run. And if the can’t draw walks either, that’s a problem for them.
He’s a good to very good player, but “great” gets thrown around way too much and too easily.
SJ44,
Are you really trying to convince me that Carl Crawford is viewed as possibly the best LF in the league? Come on….
Ok so you brush away his low OBP because only stupid stat-heads think that’s a useful stat. What about his low power numbers? He has a career .438 SLG.
So he doesn’t get on base at an elite rate, he doesn’t have elite power. Yet he’s the best LF in baseball. Ok..
Melancon walks the 2nd hitter. He’s got nothing today.
Sox aren’t going to slug, that should read.
SJ44,
I think you’re right with Crawford.
As we saw this past offseason, the top guys got large contracts (Holliday and Bay) without even having much bidding going on.
After that, the rest of the pack had to settle for much smaller deals.
If Crawford is indeed the top free agent, and there is legitimate bidding going on, it could be big.
Oddessy,
Can the Yankees afford Crawford AND Lee on top of Jeter AND Mo?
If Crawford were to move over to CF, where he’d still be a great fielder, I’d agree that he’s a great player. But if we are comparing him to other corner OF’s his bat just doesn’t match up well..
Betsy,
Why do you say he’s not worth 16 million a year? Look at his numbers with RISP that were posted on here.
Look at what he brings defensively and with his speed.
Picture him in this lineup with Jeter, Arod, Granderson, Tex, etc.
He’s worth every bit of 16 million a year and he’s going to get that, or possibly more, from somebody.
The Yankees project payroll out 3 years in advance. They also have a big board that shows who future free agents will be over a 3 year period.
They already have a pretty good idea of what his market is going to be. That’s one of Cashman’s best traits. He has a great feel for the market and we have seen numerous examples of how accurately he gauged the market the last two off-season.
Carl Crawford is not a guy they are afraid to pay if given that opportunity.
It’s speculation as to whether or not the yankees will sign Crawford.
But I do think this – if the yankees do give him a 5yr/80M contract, they will only do so because they have evaluated him as a near elite player.
Now that may or may not be the correct valuation of his talent.
But I do firmly think the team is done signing players for large sums who they do not truly believe are dominant players.
The days of signing second rate guys in the market are done.
If the bidding gets out of hand, then let the Yankees bow out; that’s what I hope they do.
Pat M,
it has nothing to do with Teixeira.
Everybody knows that ever since that Gino punk buried the Ortiz jersey at NYS, the Sox (and apparently Ortiz too) are cursed and the Yanks are blessed.
SJ44 said:
Imagine an OF defense of Crawford and Granderson? No balls get in between them in the gaps. Pitchers will LOVE pitching to contact with guys like that behind them.
—————————————————–
I’m not sold on that. Balls will find the gaps no matter who is in the OF. Maybe some fewer of them will be doubles. Certainly some that would otherwise be doubles get converted into outs but I’m not convinced – and am not sold enough on defensive metrics – that the difference of Crawford over an average defender is so large that pitchers would change the way they pitch because of it.
How many balls a game would Crawford have to convert from otherwise doubles to outs for a guy like Andy Pettitte , CC, AJ etc…to pitch more to contact?
Sorry, not buying that.
Patrick,
Ask Keith Law a question in his next chat about who are the 3 best LF’s in baseball.
I bet you Crawford is that mix.
He is considered one of, if not the best all around LF in the game, when you combine his defense with his offense.
If you don’t believe it, fine by me. You will see how he gets paid this off-season and he will be paid at that rate.
CB,
What is your personal evaluation of Crawford? Is he an elite player? As we discussed on Friday, he is an elite fielder and has elite speed but as an overall player, is he elite? I don’t think so, but I’d like to get you take.
Double play to end the game.
I think. Maybe I’d better check again.
Yep. I only make one mistake a year and this was mine.
Melancon with the save…1.1 innings, 1 hit, 1 run, 2 walks, 1 strikeout, 1 homer allowed.
Golson is really playing well. Hitting, stealing bases and playing a solid center field. Strikeouts are way down with just 6 in 36 at bats. He batted leadoff today.
Scranton game day box.
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.....a_bufaaa_1
CB,
Exactly. The Yankees do view him as an elite. So do the Red Sox and Rays for that matter.
They aren’t going to pay him big money just because he’s out there. As they did in the past with some FA’s.
If they do sign him, it will be because of the valuation you are discussing and what they believe is a need that needs addressing on the team.
SJ44,
I think it’s a bit silly to compare just LF’s. If you are talking about all outfielders in general I wouldn’t put Crawford in the top 5. Maybe top 10.
Justin Upton, Braun, Kemp, Sizemore, Granderson, Holliday, Cruz, Choo, Ichiro, Markakis are all better in my opinion.
“The failure to sign Mark Texeria is going to haunt the BoSox for many years to come…”
pat m-
that’s a really good point. that threw them off course. you’d think they would have regrouped with the money they have, but they haven’t used it on any difference makers.
even though holliday and bay weren’t ideal in every way, they were better than beltre and cameron.
theo has painted himself into a corner and it’s going to cost them to get out of it.
“Look at what he brings defensively and with his speed.
Picture him in this lineup with Jeter, Arod, Granderson, Tex, etc.
He’s worth every bit of 16 million a year and he’s going to get that, or possibly more, from somebody.”
And this is where I wind up always getting back to the same question. If his primary value is defensive and speed, and MAYBE you already have a guy who – let’s be clear – won’t be AS good but can hang in the neighborhood, but might put up similar OBP numbers, where does that EXTRA $15.4m in value manifest itself exactly?
I’m still not seeing it.
SJ, I know Cash is always looking beyond the present year; I also know how shrewd he is.
Let someone else pay Crawford $16 million a year, then; I have no problem with that. I didn’t see what his #s are with RISP, but IMO they’re not worth $16 million. Holliday wasn’t worth that $$ and Crawford sure isn’t. I don’t want to pay a player that much $$ just to be a blend in player; if the Yankees are going to make that kind of committment, it had better be for a superstar.
That said, I trust the Yankees; as CB said, they won’t be burning $$ on players they don’t deem truly worth it. Those days are gone. If they give that to Crawford, then yes, I think that it means they valued him that highly. Of course, they could also be making a big mistake.
SJ44,
Who are the best LF?
Holliday, Braun, Crawford….
there is really not much else at all at the position.
It’s not very deep, is it?
SJ is right.
I can see the Angels, Boston, Mets, white sox, Atlanta all bidding on Crawford.
http://spreadsheets.google.com.....pPRtt9qIGw
Remember the ballpark that Crawford is coming to… he is going to use that RF pole just like Damon did. Remember when he did that against Mariano last year? Going to happen a lot more when he plays in this park with his sweet lefty swing…
I dislike Law more than I can possibly express, so his opinion means less than diddly to me.
Betsy,
SJ44 said that as a dig against me. He knows I like Keith Law.
Patrick,
If you’re just counting players who were in LF and not all OFers who are capable of playing LF then Crawford is at the top.
By WAR last year:
Holliday
Crawford
Nyger Morgan/Ryan Braun (depending on if you say Morgan is a CFer)
LF has a bunch of really bad defenders, not a lot of guys that provide good bat and great defense.
Markakis needs to pick it up to stay on that list.
I’ll take Crawford there.
So are the Sox going to re-sign V-Mart long term?
I like Crawford. He’s a very good ball player. That said, no, I don’t think he’s an elite ball player.
At the same time, I think he’ll sign for something of a gray area. If he goes for say 5yrs/75M that’s not elite player money either.
The other factor that is going to come into play here is the organization’s lack of minor league depth in the OF and the impending free agent market.
It’s unfortunate for the Yanks that both Ryan Braun and Justin Upton signed long term deals. Those guys are elite corner players.
At one time, I was hoping that Braun would be the Yanks left fielder of the future. He’s got so much bat speed he could share some with Big Papi and still be an all star.
Even counting all OFers 2009 Crawford was the 4th best by WAR. Dude is good.
I think the Yankees have an AAV in mind that they won’t exceed with Crawford. He’s not in that elite “gotta have” category imo.
CB,
In the current market, 5/75 is almost elite money.
Though, we are all throwing the word “elite” around, and there could be vastly different opinions of what exactly that means.
Today was as bad as I’ve seen Montero play defensively in a long time.
Hard to figure what the Scranton hitters really were. The first 8 innings, they were hitting against a knuckleballer and collected 7 hits and only 2 strikeouts. They really opened it up in the 9th, though. They did hit Bobby Parnell hard, though.
Jerkface,
Yeah that’s true but I think it’s a bit odd to compare just LF’s when basically any outfielder could slot in as a LF. If you are comparing all players that could play LF I don’t consider Crawford one of the best. Now it’s a totally different story if Crawford were to move to CF. I think that’d be a good move for him and it’d help him make more money.
Also, it sounds like I’m anti-Crawford. I’m really not. I’d love him on the team. I just think that some team out there is going to overpay him and I don’t want it to be the Yankees.
Stuckey,
You don’t understand free agency if you believe he isn’t worth that kind of money.
All we heard last off-season was that Matt Holliday wouldn’t get a 100 million dollar + contract. He did.
He didn’t even have the market Crawford will have and he got the money because he was the premier guy on the market and the Cardinals needed him.
If you have the Yankees, Red Sox, and Angels, to name 3 bidding on Carl Crawford, which I believe you will have, he is going to get big money.
OFers better than or equal to Crawford
Ichiro
Werth
Guithierez
Bay
Beltran
J. Upton
Braun
Jason Heyward
Choo
Markakis
Adam Jones
Granderson
Kemp
Ethier
Manny
Dexter Fowler
Jay Bruce
Holliday
Ludwick
Cruz
Hamilton
Torri Hunter
JD Drew
As you can see… OFers are a dime a dozen. Teixeria was a cornerstone 1B, there is a big difference….
Stuckey,
Why are you so convinced that Brett Gardner can hang in the same neighborhood as Crawford?
I tend to doubt the Yankees feel that way, otherwise they wouldn’t be platooning him already. you have alot more confidence in Gardner than I believe the Yankees do.
Cherry picking WAR for one season is not a good determination of “who’s the best?”.
You’d take Crawford over Sizemore or Braun for example? Is Ben Zobrist really an 8.6 WAR player year in year out?
Honestly I’m not a huge fan of WAR the way it’s composed on fangraphs..
I wonder why all these guys are signing extensions and giving up FA….
“In the current market, 5/75 is almost elite money.”
Maybe it’s semantics, but to me elite money is 6-7 yrs at over $110M or so. I think the total fixed cost is a much bigger concern than the AAV.
The commitment between 5/75 and 7/120 is a big one because it’s those last two years on the deal that are most problematic.
We’ll see – it’s very possible the yankees do valuate Crawford as an elite player due to his defense and base stealing.
Crawford is particularly useful to the yankees because LF in the stadium is so large.
“If you have the Yankees, Red Sox, and Angels, to name 3 bidding on Carl Crawford, which I believe you will have, he is going to get big money.”
—————
hard to argue that.
if there are 3 big market teams in on him, he’ll get a very nice deal.
I wonder if the Sox will go after him very hard though. Obviously he would improve their team, but speedy outfielders is one thing they do have on their team and in the minors.
They’d be much better served with a middle of the order bat than a corner OF for the top of the order. Course’ those guys aren’t growing on trees.
Werth
Guithierez
Bay
Jason Heyward
Adam Jones
Ethier
Manny
Dexter Fowler
Jay Bruce
Ludwick
Hamilton
Torri Hunter
JD Drew
Lamar, come on dude lets be fair. None of the above have proven they are better than Carl Crawford. Even Markakis needs to rebound to prove that he is better.
True Patrick, theres a lot more that goes into evaluating players. I think LF isn’t deep, but if you include all OFers theres a couple of guys I’d have man LF over Crawford.
Cliff Lee > Crawford
To get an elite starter who is going to age well (considering he is not a hard thrower who relies on velocity) is a premium commodity. I doubt Vazquez pitches well enough to warrant being re-signed from age 35 on. Who knows whether Andy comes back or not. Even if he is, he is going to be 39 and isin’t going to give us #3 starter production forever.
I doubt they move Joba back to the rotation. We’re going to have an opening in the rotation. The lineup will be the best in baseball still, even without Crawford. Lee is more of a need than an OFer.
Discussing what Crawford is worth and what he’ll actually get are two different animals in my opinion. I don’t think he’s worth elite money but he very well might get elite money. I just hope it isn’t the Yankees handing him that contract
“Can the Yankees afford Crawford AND Lee on top of Jeter AND Mo?”
Afford, yes, but I don’t think they will do that.
CB,
I agree.
If you’re talking 7 years, which seem almost unheard of now, then yes.
Even that 6th year is big.
But if it’s 5/75 vs 5/85-90 for a big market team, it’s not that far off.
I do agree the total fixed cost is a big deal, and I think many teams wouldn’t give more than a small handful of players (the elites
) in the game 6-7 years right now.
What did the Yanks sign an old Johnny Damon for ???? Carl Crawford is a better ballplayer than Johnny Damon ……I know I’ve opened myself up for all sorts of debates, but he just is…….
That list of OF’s “better than Crawford” is laughable.
CB,
I believe anything over 100 million is “elite money”. I think that’s where you get into a different kind of compensation. Especially if a deal is backloaded.
I don’t think he will get 100 million. However, he’s going to get more money than people think because of his value as a player, the limited number of future FA OF’s of his skill level hitting the market, AND the teams that will bid for him as a FA.
That will raise his price much higher than people think.
I’ve said this before – I could really see the Angels massively over paying for Carl Crawford.
That’s the team that I think will be very hot to sign him.
The Angels very well could be in a for a tough season. They don’t have much on the farm.
Crawford is a perfect player for their system. They can then trade Rivera.
I don’t think Crawford is a player to fight tooth and nail in a bidding war for.
“where does that EXTRA $15.4m in value manifest itself exactly?”
i think the answer is that there isn’t a MVP per dollar spent award or a championship decided by most wins per dollar spent.
all others thing equal carl crawford will beat gardner.
personally i’d sign crawford and keep gardner as the fourth outfielder and pinch running stolen base threat.
We’ll see – it’s very possible the yankees do valuate Crawford as an elite player due to his defense and base stealing.
====================================
Herein lies the crux of the debate.
GGBG is has a similar skillset as far as defense/base stealing is concerned. Is the difference in offense worth the large outlay?
I wonder who’s gonna sign Manny next year, the cubs or the mets.
I don?t think Crawford is a player to fight tooth and nail in a bidding war for.
—–
This is basically my point when it comes to Crawford. If he is available for a fair deal (certainly not 6/90) I’d want the Yanks to sign him. If the offers get into that “elite” level we are talking about, I want no part of him.
“That will raise his price much higher than people think.”
SJ-
I have no doubt he’s going to get a lot of money. He’s going to get at least 5/75 as long as he has a good year and doesn’t get hurt.
Why not have Crawford AND Gardner as starters?
NJ is a FA after the season, so plug Swisher into the DH spot.
Crawford has the arm to play right. Gardner in left. Grandy in Center. An elite elite OF defensive and we get more speed in the lineup.
“Jerkface April 19th, 2010 at 2:27 pm
On average, the Yankees? 2009 gate receipts for a seven game home series were greater than the Pirates? gate receipts for the entire year.
Strange, but true: at this moment, the Yankees may have already earned gate receipts in excess of what the Pirates will see for all of 2010 It is mid-April, yet in the race for baseball gate receipts, the Pirates have already been eliminated.
http://itsaboutthemoney.net/ar…..-uccess-2/”
****
Huh, that guess of the revenue sharing that the Marlins got last year would be 6.2 million more than their 2009 payroll according to Cot’s. My dislike of Loria can but only grow.
‘They can then trade Rivera. ”
————–
might have a hard time moving him, though I imagine you’re supposing they’d eat some $$
but yes, Angels would probably love a guy like Crawford.
though, not knowing Morales would break out like this… didn’t they love Tex just as much or more?
Crawford has the arm to play right. Gardner in left. Grandy in Center.
—
THat would be fun to watch…
“Why not have Crawford AND Gardner as starters?
NJ is a FA after the season, so plug Swisher into the DH spot.”
—————-
seems like speed overkill, but I guess it’s not actually a horrible idea if Gardner proves himself this season.
“To get an elite starter who is going to age well (considering he is not a hard thrower who relies on velocity) is a premium commodity.”
I don’t think you can say with much confidence that any pitcher will necessarily age well. Breaking balls put stress on the elbow and shoulder as well.
Plus the harder a pitcher throws, the more margin for error he will have as his fastball declines, which usually begins at age 29.
Crawford is going to hit 20 more HRs than Gardner
He’s also probably going to have twice as many doubles, many more RBIs.
And he’s probably going to steal more bases because he will be on base more.
He’s also going to have more OF assists.
Simply put, he is better than Gardner in every facet, and significantly better as a hitter.
“You don’t understand free agency if you believe he isn’t worth that kind of money.”
That’s not the question I’m posing. For me it’s not what he can get on the open market. I don’t allow myself to every be surprised at that.
I’m saying IF that’s his market, is his market price worth it specifically for the Yankees.
My point is, if the Yankees have a LF option at $600k that can run in a fairly exclusive class, get on base 35% of the time, and play an above average D in left, do the Yankees need to spend an additional $15m to get a little bit faster, somewhat better D and some increased slugging?
Carl Crawford is a LF. Has been a LF his entire career and he’s not moving to RF in NY because of Brett Gardner.
He will just go to a team that will play him in LF.
Francesca just said the Angels made a statement sweeping the Jays even though they lost 2/3 to the Yankees and now they are going to take off; so if Francesca is right, the Angels should just dominate now, lol
“Simply put, he is better than Gardner in every facet, and significantly better as a hitter.”
So cost is no factor?
That’s the only question I ask and the only answer I ever seem to get back is “Crawford is better”.
Someone quantity how much better in terms of cost.
Anyone?
A Gardner-Granderson-Crawford OF is drool worthy defensively.
So much speed as well. We would have beaten the Red Sox at their own game… except we’d have speed, defense, and guys in the middle of the order who can hit bombs (Tex, ARod, Swisher Cano, Posada, Grandy will all have 25+. Craw will probably hit 20.)
I think Crawford would be willing to play RF for the Yankees (I don’t think it makes much sense though), but he would want additional money to do it.
SJ44,
What do you think of Crawford moving to CF? His bat plays better there and he certainly has the range to handle it. I think he’d be among the best CF’s in baseball.
“GGBG is has a similar skillset as far as defense/base stealing is concerned. Is the difference in offense worth the large outlay?”
I don’t think that’s the case. Their skill sets may be analogous but they are not similar.
Crawford is a historically great defensive LF. He really is that good as a defensive LF. He is better than Bonds was in his prime defensively.
I don’t think you can put Gardner in that class.
Stealing bases Gardner is terrific. But the primary issue there is that you can’t steal 1b and that’s really what Gardner’s value as a player is going to be determined by – how often can he make it to 1b. I don’t think we can know that as of now, though it’s unlikely he’ll get on base as often as Crawford does.
Carl Crawford as a Yankee is a good fit. He’s used to being the No. 2 hitter and will love hitting behind Jeter. He runs excellent outfield routes with a arm slightly above major league average.
Yankee Stadium is his kind of field. Lock him to a 6-year, for $16-17M per and no other team will be in the way.
Of big market teams, no team in the AL will compete and he’s likely to want to stay in the AL. Only Boston will say they’re interested and that’s to do their usual stunt of driving up the price. They have more compelling problems beginning with the less than adequate catching, an old CF, and possibly Beltre who doesn’t seem like a long term fix at 3rd base.
Patrick, he doesn’t like CF. Also, I would not move Granderson out of CF. Poor guy, lol – no one seems to want to see him stick in CF.
That’s not really the entire question. Its also about upside and how the Yankees view their roster over the next 3 years.
If Gardner maxes out his talent, he still isn’t in the class of Carl Crawford. A guy lot of people around the Yankees think could hit 20 HR’s a year playing 81 games at Yankee Stadium.
If you look at the entire roster, and factor in the age and productivity of some, they may believe Crawford is worth the money because his production and growth will exceed Gardner’s in the same time frame.
Remember one thing for the Gardner fans…
Girardi has been protecting this guy against good lefty pitchers. All of his numbers have been accumulated against righties.
He didn’t face guys like David Price, Lester, Kazmir, CJ Wilson… all who have power stuff. Girardi has been putting Gardner in positions to succeed. Doesn’t say a lot for the faith they have in Gardner if the guy who barely made the team as the 25th man is starting over him every time a guy throws from the opposite hand…
Carl Crawford does not have an arm the will play well in RF.
Let’s hold off on the all defense, limited power outfield. Not working out so well for the Sox.
New Post: Pitching matchups in Oakland
The problem is that Gardner doesn’t have the arm to play RF if you wanted to play all 3 in the OF together. I mean, I guess he could. But when you have a guy with a cannon like CC, why wouldn’t you put him there and Gardner in left?
Fot the tampa Yanks, Noesi has 2 innings, 1 hit, 0 runs, 0 walks, 1 strikeout
Corban Joseph has an RBI single
stuckey April 19th, 2010 at 3:11 pm
I would pay to play LF for the Yankees! But even though I would do that I couldn’t expect the Yankees to want me.
The pay isn’t relative because the Yankees have a need & it isn’t Gardner.
CB, You make a very good point about the Angels / Crawford match…….The club I think who’ll be after him will be the LA Dodgers….They rid themselves of Manny, and you hook Carl Crawford along with Kemp & Either and that’s the best outfield in the game……
“Carl Crawford does not have an arm the will play well in RF.”
Neither does the current Yankee RF.
Crawford is an elite LF. As CB correctly states, he’s an historically great defensively LF.
Why move him to CF when you have an excellent CF in Granderson? That doesn’t make sense to me.
He’s going to be a LF with his next team. Just a question of team at this point. He’s not changing positions for anybody, IMO.
The McCourt’s divorce issues probably will prevent the Dodgers from being players in free agency.
“i think the answer is that there isn’t a MVP per dollar spent award or a championship decided by most wins per dollar spent.”
It’s remarkable how this is somehow getting lost.
There are no rings for being the most financially efficient team in the sport nor are there any rings for being the “best run.”
By this line of thinking, signing Mark Teixeira was a horrible move last year because the difference in expected value generated between Nick Swisher at 1b and Tex at 1b wasn’t even close to the difference in what they cost.
The yankees had no idea Nady would get hurt. If efficiency was so paramount as it seems to be with Gardner then the yanks should have passed on Tex and just played Swisher at 1b.
I said similar, not equal!
Look, I’m not putting Gardner in his class, but how can Crawford be an elite player based on his defense/base stealing? He’s good, but does he stand out that much more than other players around the league?
If it’s defense/basestealing the Yankees want, we have that inhouse (yes, I realize at a level below Crawford’s).
SJ44,
I’m not saying the Yankees should sign Crawford and move him to CF. I’m saying that moving to CF would be better for Carl, not the Yankees. Lets say he markets himself as a CF when he hits FA. I think people around baseball would know that he’d make a great CF. His bat plays better there, he can still be an elite fielder there. All at once he’s one of the best CF’s in the league. That is in much higher demand than a good to great corner outfielder. He’d make more money as a great CF in myo pinion.
“Why are you so convinced that Brett Gardner can hang in the same neighborhood as Crawford?”
I’m not.
I don’t know how I can be any clearer.
I’m posing a conditional scenario. IF Gardner can manage to get on base 35% of the time (CC’s career mark is .335) while seeing a lot of pitches and if Gardner can continue to steal bases when he’s on at a high 80% clip, be a pest that benefits the top of the order and play good defense, does Carl Crawford represent a NET GAIN in production worth upwards of $15m a year?
.350 OBP IS CC’s neighborhood. So is his steal% (if my math is correct, career numbers of CC 78%, BG 85%) The jury is out on defense I agree.
I don’t think it’s out of the ream of possibilty that besides slugging, Gardner might be able to hang in CC’s “neighborhood”. If you disagree, I’d appreciate having you define exactly where this neighborhood is exactly?
Pat M,
Good thought on the dodgers. Manny is already half way out of town. By then their financial situation may stabilize but it’s tough to know with McCourt. What a mess.
If Gardner breaks 50 SB, which he is well on pace to do, does it make sense to pay Crawford an extra $15 mil per season?
I think it’s important to state that Gardner fits in better with the Yankees’ ideal of patience. As good of a hitter as Crawford is, the Rays never trusted him to leadoff because of his lack of OBP.
Crawford is a LF, because he doesn’t want to play CF. He would be one of the very best CF defensively if not the best. He has told Tampa that no way no how will he play CF.
Darn! It honestly seems to be a team sport huh?
http://espn.go.com/mlb/powerrankings
I actually think ESPN got the top 6 right… after that is highly debatable.
“Remember one thing for the Gardner fans…
Girardi has been protecting this guy against good lefty pitchers. All of his numbers have been accumulated against righties.
He didn’t face guys like David Price, Lester, Kazmir, CJ Wilson… all who have power stuff. Girardi has been putting Gardner in positions to succeed. Doesn’t say a lot for the faith they have in Gardner if the guy who barely made the team as the 25th man is starting over him every time a guy throws from the opposite hand…”
Actually, Brett hits lefties just as well, if not better than righties. You can look up his career numbers. The reason why Girardi has platooned him is because of Brett but because Girardi believes in righty-lefty match ups and thinks that playing Thames gives them the best chance against lefties. That is where Girardi is wrong. The only reason why he does this to Brett is because he is in Girardi’s eyes, still unproven.
He wouldn’t do that with Granderson, Cano, etc. because they are veterans and have been proven in his eyes eventhough they too probably hit better against righties than lefties.
Brett should be the everyday starting leftfielder for at least a full half season to see what he can do.