Today in The Journal News
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Today in the Journal News on Apr 26, 2010 
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After a red eye flight across the country, I’ve made it to Baltimore just in time to sleep for a couple of hours and get on the road to D.C.
Last night the Yankees stumbled twice and lost their series finale to the Angels. Javier Vazquez fell apart in the fourth inning, but it was Joe Girardi’s indecision in the seventh that stood out and seemed to put the game out of reach.
There wasn’t much time to dwell on the loss, because the Yankees will be visiting the White House this afternoon. The notebook also has items on Nick Johnson, Chan Ho Park and the latest World Series ring presentation.
I’ll be back with more from the White House this afternoon.
I’m excited for the Yankees that they’re going to visit the White House and I can’t wait to hear about it. I’ve never been – I LOVE Washington and the last time I was there I went on a tour of the Capitol, but it takes some advance planning to get into the White House.
Trading for a DH? God Johnson is ugly, 2 hits in the last two games, too many K’s and then there is slow and slower if he even gets on base. I think once you move a guy the first time, there isn’t much chance that he’s a better player the second time around. BC actually did it twice during the offseason.
Sorry, I mean two hits in the last 10 games
Nobody is making trades after 18 April games. Its not Fantasy Baseball.
You ride out the cold streaks, look at the back of the guy’s baseball card, and realize he’s going to hit.
You don’t just lose the ability to hit because you got off to a slow start.
The Vazquez we have seen thus far is the Vazquez I was afraid the Yankees were getting when the trade was first announced. He has no fastball command, it continually sails up and to the right. His breaking ball sits on a tee for left hand hitters. He has no answers for lefties. Worst of all, he pitches like he has no guts. We constantly hear how good his stuff supposedly is, but he nibbles and nibbles against even the bottom of the order hitters. He seems afraid to throw the ball near the strike zone. It is a brutal, tedious day watching this guy tentatively pitch to good and bad hitters alike.
I had come to terms with him being in the rotation once I realized he would only be the #4 or 5 starter, but I can’t live with this guy if this continues. The only wins the Yankess will have in his starts will be despite him. What happened since his great year last year? It can’t be just NL to AL, he would have trouble with college teams the way he is pitching right now.
Who they gonna trade for….big pawpaw? NJ has always been productive when he’s healthy…let’s not give up on him just yet.
Maybe he is just off to a slow starts while struggling with his mechanics. Ever think of that?
Just as with hitters, pitchers don’t suddenly lose it.
The guy is struggling with his mechanics and is off to a slow start. FWIW, CC had the same problem into June last year until he got rolling. It happens.
Clearly, they don’t expect the guy to pitch to a 9 ERA all year. If fans think so, there isn’t a lot the Yankees can do about that.
All they can do is work with him and get him back on track.
He’s not the first player in baseball history to struggle out of the gate and won’t be the last.
i’m very impressed with girardi not only taking responsibility for his gaffe, but also deflecting attention from the real story of the game – the disasterous javy vazquez.
i’m 100% sure that girardi is doing this on purpose, this very public mea culpa, and it goes to show his confidence in the locker-room and in front of the media.
however, let’s be honest. this loss is all on vazquez – that’s a fact. the rest is speculation. what if they IBB’d morales… what if d-rob was able to retire the next guy (rivera) with the bases loaded… what if marte hadn’t thrown such a meatball down the middle… what if the yankees scored more runs (which they didn’t)…
baseball is rife with theoretical discussions – they make this sport so much fun, and second guessing is a second nature to all of us – but, as i much as i applaud girardi for protecting javy, he can’t do it for long. the mound at YS is a very lonely and exposed place for a failure, and sadly i believe that javy is heading into an ocean of boos in the near future…
“Maybe he is just off to a slow starts while struggling with his mechanics”
Obviously he is struggling with his mechanics. But he struggled with his mechanics the entire second half of ‘04, and never could fix it. He struggled with it most of the year in ‘06 and ‘08 with the White Sox. Looking at his career, the struggles seem the norm, with the flashes of brilliance the exception. This is his 13th year, he has had 4 very good to good years. I agree that pitchers don’t suddenly lose it, but he hasn’t really ‘had it’ except for brief periods of a career.
I do expect Vazquez to pitch to a 4.75-5.50 ERA overall, but it is still brutal to watch him nibble on seemingly every hitter from 0-2 to get to 3-2. I just hope the other starters pitch well enough and stay healthy so Vazquez never has to pitch a crucial game.
The disgrace that is Javier Vazquez is much more tolerable when the team is off to such a good start. Right now with the way they are playing its easy to let him work the kinks out. Obviously he’s not getting traded or getting yanked from the rotation. I’m happy he’s on a one-year deal, I’ll say that.
Nick Johnson is what he is. A stopgap for 2010 until Crawford or someone else is available. He’s on a one-year deal and frankly is very easily replaceable if he continues to stink. I’m already annoyed with the nagging injuries he already has and the passive nature he employs at the plate. But that’s Nick Johnson. They knew what they were getting when they signed him.
Luckily the lineup is so stacked they could get away with Winn or Thames as the full time DH and still score a ton of runs. And that’s IF NJ continues to struggle or gets hurt. They can also always make a move for a bat at the deadline.
With the great starts of Gardner, Cano, Pettitte, etc. that makes the struggles of Vazquez and NJ easy to accept.
Gil L -
I won’t argue that Vazquez’ performance didn’t cost them the game, but I will say that there were other things in that game that contributed to the loss; it was not 100% on Javy. When Javy left it was 5-4, still a close, winnable game. The offense pretty much shut down after the first 2 innings and then the debacle with the Morales at-bat, which was a result of Marte’s ineffectiveness yesterday leading up to that at-bat.
It’s really difficult to pin a loss on one factor most of the time.
He made the AS Team in 2004. That gets lost in the 2004 analysis. He pitched hurt the second half of that season. That had nothing to do with mechanics.
He, like Swisher before him, didn’t get along with Guillen and had a rough time in Chicago.
He had a great year in Atlanta last year. NL or not, you still have to throw the ball and he did it very well.
April is too early to give up on the guy.
All mechanical issues will be worked out sooner than later. Enough players have made contributions to have a 12-6 record.
The team is running on 6 cylinders right now and will see times where 8 cylinders is possible.
Only Chan Ho Park is on the DL. Compared to other teams the Yankees are doing good in that respect.
It’s only a matter of time before the Rays come back to earth.
I am so disgusted with reading “the disgrace of Javy Vazquez”
All the guy needs to do is have two wins in a row and everyone on this board will be throwing kisses at his feet. He is hardly the first pitcher in history to have a rough start in April and then go on to have a really good season.
Lets give it one more try before we start chasing him out of town
What the heck was Joe thinking about last night? That was High School level. Overall 12-6 though
http://stevewigdor.blogspot.com/
Judging players when they are having mechanical issues or in slumps is not fair, unless you expect perfection out of them. Javy will be fine and so will Nick Johnson – unless their talent just disappeared. If this was happening in the middle of the season, no one would care. It’s happening now, so it’s more noticeable. If we gave up on every player that struggled at the beginning of the season, we’d have no one left to root for.
Erica-
“Lets give it one more try before we start chasing him out of town”
It’s gonna be a lot more than 1 more try so I hope that was just a figure of speech.
The loss fell all on Javy? The Yankees didn’t hit a lick yesterday – what did they have, 3 hits? They didn’t play good D and Marte was bad. That was a team loss – just like all losses are.
MTU (aka GBURL) April 26th, 2010 at 9:21 am
Erica-
?Lets give it one more try before we start chasing him out of town?
It?s gonna be a lot more than 1 more try so I hope that was just a figure of speech.
**************
I should really hope from the tone of my comment that you already know the answer to that question
Vazquez will be fine. It’s only a matter of time before he figures it out. He’s too good of a pitcher not to.
Sorry Erica but the way he is pitching right now is a disgrace.
I’m more than fair when criticizing the players and Vazquez hasn’t has one good start all year. Call it mechanics, call it a transition period, whatever. He needs to get straightened out or he’s going to get booed right out of town. If he thought the boos at his last home start were bad, wait until he hears the crowd if he keeps pitching like this.
Its not about having a few good starts and then everyone will be off his back. I watch a ton of baseball. The other 4 starters are miles ahead of him right now. He’s pitching poorly against good and bad offenses. His velocity is down. His confidence is lacking. And he can’t put anyone away. These are facts.
The Yankees are 12 and 6 after facing some of the best teams in Baseball mostly on the road, and early in the season so what’s the problem.
Appreciate what’s been achieved thus far.
The problem with fans and pitchers is they take the ball every fifth day and fans tend to linger on the “what have you done for me lately” reasoning. I for one, was happy with the Melky for Vazquez trade back in the winter. I’m not thrilled with his performance so far, but if he gets his mechanics right and is strong from May to November, I will be. This is a marathon – not a sprint so being patient is hard for fans to do. Myself included (Javy Mr. Bullpen Vazquez). We tend to forget that pitching is complicated… release point, arm angle, head angle, back leg, front landing point, grip, shoulder in front, etc. One thing can mess up everything. I’m going to stick with my “good trade” POV and try to be patient here and hope that Eiland and Vazquez can straighten this out within the next two starts and hope that Javy is the pitching version of Tex and the Mr. May’s get their game on soon.
Was Vazquez pitching hurt in ‘06-4.84 ERA? ‘08-4.67 and run out of Chicago? ‘05-4.42 in the NL West?
The second half of ‘04 he may have been hurt, but if it was that bad he shouldn’t have been pitching at all. And, the Yankees kept saying that it was his mechanics, he was dropping his arm and getting underneath the ball, just like he is doing now, yet he could not fix it.
I will be rooting for him to pitch well as long as he is a Yankee, but I will most certainly not be throwing kisses at his feet, even if he wins 3 in a row.
Betsy – Hughes rules (Pleading the Fifth) April 26th, 2010 at 9:22 am
The loss fell all on Javy? The Yankees didn?t hit a lick yesterday ? what did they have, 3 hits? They didn?t play good D and Marte was bad. That was a team loss ? just like all losses are.
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Totally agree-you can’t pin the whole loss on Javy. The game was still close when he left-if the offense could have gotten it going it might have been a completely different story.
Disgrace is too strong a word, if you ask me, and I know you weren’t.
It’s fair to criticize, absolutely. He has not pitched well overall. He’s had some good innings but hasn’t been able to achieve any consistency. But to say the guy is a disgrace is a little much.
“The Yankees didn’t hit a lick yesterday”
Um didn’t they have 4 runs on the board by the 5th inning?
They aren’t going to score 10 every game. Apparently they need to in Vazquez’s starts, however.
People giving up on Nick Johnson and Vazquez are the same people who said Girardi should have been fired in his first year and the same people who gave up on Marte after his injury and the same people who were throwing in the towel after a rough start last year. The Yanks were 15-17 and had just gotten beat by Toronto who was 23-12 at the time. this was May 12th and the Yanks were 6.5 games behind Toronto for crying out loud.
These same people do not have a clue about the length and Patience a season must endure to be successful. Nick Johnson will have an OPS over .800 when we get done with the season; if he doesn’t it would be a shock. Vazquez may not be a Cy Young contender in the AL, but the guy has kept his ERA below 5 for the last 10 years and while that would still be bad, he will not be above 5 by the end of the year. His career ERA is 4.23 and I would expect an ERA in the 4.50 range by the time the end of the season rolls around.
Relax people!
Nobody is asking you to kiss his feet.
Some guys decide that playing hurt is doing the right thing by the team. Everybody has confirmed he pitched hurt in 2004. If you choose not to believe it, nobody cares.
You are like most young Yankee fans. You bring a football mentality to the table and expect wins on a daily basis. Never slump, never have problems or you invoke your “right” to boo.
Frankly, nobody cares if you like Javy Vazquez or hate him. Its not going to change anybody’s life.
The bottom line is, he either gets the job done or someone else will take his place at some point. Just like anybody else over a long baseball season.
miggs -
They had a chance to score more early but didn’t; after Cano’s HR – diddly squat.
Personally I think its a disgrace that people are complaining about a 12-6 record.
Miggs,
They had 3 hits the entire game and didn’t do anything after the third inning. It had an impact on the game. Especially a day game in Anaheim where the ball flies out of the ballpark.
Vazquez didn’t pitch well but, he was hardly the sole reason they lost the game.
I think its time folks put 2004 to bed and relax a little bit. Javy wasn’t the sole reason they blew 4 straight games to the Red Sox and he wasn’t the only reason they lost yesterday, even though he pitched poorly.
NYY626
I totally agree. Given the road trip and the teams they faced, no complaints.
IIRC, Javy was a player who benefited from the WBC, it gave him an early start to the season. I don’t see the point of booing a player, unless they are not trying.
Last year the Yankees only had three starters. The other 2 where fill ins. This year they have 4.5. Vazquez will be fine. Nick Johnson will need to work things out. Nobody is whining about Tex, and he is only batting .100+ something. Hitters always work things out. I hope the Yankees don’t let Barry rub off on them. The Yankees should tell him what it’s like to win, like stop talking and produce.
NYY626 April 26th, 2010 at 9:34 am
Personally I think its a disgrace that people are complaining about a 12-6 record
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Me too!
considering how we started out the last few years, 12-6 is awesome. And that is against all + .500 teams (when we faced them). Wait til they face The Orioles, Royals, and some of the overachieving +.500 teams.
I hope that Vazquez gets it together, but what concerns me the most was he looked absolutely lost in his post game interview. He kept saying it wasn’t mechanics but he didn’t know what it was. How can he correct what he doesn’t know?
He is hardly the first pitcher in history to have a rough start in April and then go on to have a really good season.
The 2009 version of CC says hello.
Doreen that’s true but like I said, you can’t expect 10 runs a game.
What’s more alarming about Vazquez is his attitude….the first sign was him commenting on the light smattering of boos he heard in his 2nd start (he should never have brought that up).
He could be what I describe as “mentally fragile”, which won’t work in this town. Say whatever you want, when has Vazquez ever performed well over the long haul in a pressure situation? Like others have said, he’s had good years and bad years. He’s gotten run out of other towns before.
He did well in the NL last year. That’s fine, but that surely doesn’t guarantee he won’t pitch to a 5 ERA this year, which, looking at how his season has started, wouldn’t be surprising at all.
You can preach patience all day long. I use the eye test. His velocity is down, his location is terrible, and his mental state and confidence is shaken at best. He’s in his own head, and that’s never a good thing.
Fran -
I think right after a lost game is the worst time to interview a starting pitcher who didn’t pitch well. He’ll look at tape, he’ll talk to Girardi and Eiland. He’ll figure out what it was. I think immediately after the fact it’s too much an emotional time. Obviously, there are exceptions to that, players who can be more matter-of-fact even after a loss, but Javy surely isn’t one of those.
Let’s also remember the Yanks hit some hard balls later in the game, but most were at guys. ARod, Gardner, and a few others hit some great shots and they didn’t catch a break…it happens. Vazquez did not pitch well but if Gardner were in LF he would have easily caught that ball and that would have saved 2 runs. I agree with NJ Bob, Girardi screwed up the Marte/Morales AB…oh and to GB7 that is the guy who posted the site…I think I said his name was bob from NJ, but I was close.
Finally, to all those Brett Gardner haters, are you coming around? if so, please have perspective when his numbers drop down to the level they probably will be at; and at that time remember the value is his defense and his SB’s.
Funny thing is, one good start changes all that. That’s how it is in baseball.
Slumps play with your head. It happens to EVERYBODY.
Read CC’s quotes last year when he was struggling. Or, from a few years ago in Cleveland when he went into May with an ERA over 10.
Everybody who has played has scuffled. Its not a sign of a mental midget. Its an honest, visceral reaction to struggling because you want to be so successful so badly.
That’s the way the sport is and Javy has been around long enough to know it.
Putting it all in perspective though, if NJ and Vazquez are the worst problems the team has, then that’s pretty good.
Overall I’m very confident in the outlook of this team for 2010 but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t discuss the players that are underperforming.
I’m not crying for Vazquez to be DFA’d or traded, but I see some alarming signs that this may not be a “bad few starts” but rather a “bad year”.
“You are like most young Yankee fans. You bring a football mentality to the table and expect wins on a daily basis. Never slump, never have problems or you invoke your “right” to boo.”
I am anything but a young Yankee fan. I also don’t boo Yankees.
I am frustrated with Tex, but know he will be what he is soon enough. I was frustrated with CC’s start last year, but knew he would be what we expected. I was behind Arod and Cano through all their past struggles. I was one of the people arguing vehemently against the trade Cano talk after ‘08.
But Vazquez has shown little promise in the AL. I was hopeful for him after a stellar year last year, but he is pitching the way I feared he would. I don’t know for sure, but would bet he didn’t have a single 4 start stretch like this last year. Further, I am sure he is disgusted with his performance so far, and I would be surprised if Girardi et al are not at least a slight bit concerned.
As for NJ, he will be OK, but from the time he was acquired, I wasn’t fully comfortable with him hitting second. I am just not sure if anybody else fills the bill better on the team right now.
“The other 4 starters are miles ahead of him right now.”
There are some 1, 2 and 3 starters who aren’t miles ahead of him so the 4’s must be having a great year.
I will be slightly on edge for Javy’s next start on Sat.
I think the fans there will have him on a very short leash and the booing could be worse than last time if he can’t figure it out early.
Some players are really affected by the boos and I’m sure there are some that don’t sweat it.
I understand fan frustration with Javy. I really do.
Here’s where folks lose me…..questioning his guts and mental toughness.
How do you know he lacks guts and mental toughness?
We had a guy on here all weekend calling him “gutless”.
This “brave soul” stole JMK’s name and proceeded to post racist messages and other garbage on the blog all weekend. All the while showing his ” bravery” by stealing someone’s else’s name to do it. Anyone else other than me see the irony of that?
When you have mental midgets like that commenting on a professional baseball players guts, I just laugh.
The guy can pitch. He’s shown it his entire career. Right now, he’s awful. I don’t expect that to be the case the entire year.
He just has to work through it, as all players do when they are scuffling.
People are WAY too impatient with this team and it’s really mind-boggling.
This usually slow starting team has a 12-6 record after opening the season with the toughest schedule in the AL.
Vazquez, Johnson, and Teixeira have not been themselves at all yet. Granderson is probably next on the hit list.
People go too haywire with streaks, both good and bad. Johnson and Teixeira stumble out of the gate so one is already declared a bust signing and the other probably needs to move out of the #3 spot.
Cervelli had 6 hits in 12 ABs and people want him in the lineup everyday and Posada the DH. Gardner has gotten off to a great start, and suddenly, the Yanks have no use for Carl Crawford.
It’s nuts. People have no patience with this team whatsoever and that’s pathetic considering this is the team that’s going to Washington today to show off their rings and meet the Big Hoss.
miggs -
I understand what you’re saying.
This is a guy who wanted to erase a bad memory and it’s not happening yet. If this was a guy who the Yankees had not had before, and with whom it had not ended on a sour note, I think things are just a tad different. I don’t think he’s particularly mentally fragile; I do think he’s thinking about more than he needs to – I guess there is no clean slate for practical purposes on either side of the equation (fans/Javy).
This complaint about pitchers’ attitudes after losses, and this isn’t directed at you miggs, but just a general observation on my part, is interesting. If a pitcher loses a game and doesn’t “own up” and say he was bad, but instead tries to put a positive spin on things, the fans don’t like that; if a guy says he was embarrassed by a start and appears less than confident, the fans don’t like that, either.
I think if Javy was mentally weak, he wouldn’t have lasted in MLB.
Fran-
Your fantasy team was completely on fire last week.
Too bad you can store some points for the weeks ahead. WOW
So Miggs I assume you are concerened about Texiera as well as he is has been AWFUL.
““The other 4 starters are miles ahead of him right now.”
There are some 1, 2 and 3 starters who aren’t miles ahead of him so the 4’s must be having a great year.”
Pat I meant the other 4 starters in the Yankees rotation. Not other “#4″ starters in the major leagues.
Sorry, thought I was clear.
JCPD….. April 26th, 2010 at 9:43 am
He is hardly the first pitcher in history to have a rough start in April and then go on to have a really good season.
The 2009 version of CC says hello.
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The exact point I was trying to make!
How many times in April 2009 were people saying “CC is NOT an ace”
Erica -
They were saying that up to the all-star break when he lost to the Angels in Anaheim.
Guru not worried about Tex at all.
Not really “worried” about Vazquez either, I just think people need to stop looking at his 2009 stats and temper their expectations.
Even if Vazquez bombs the team will be fine. With the way the rest of the rotation is pitching combined with the juggernaut offense, one subpar starter won’t bring the team down. He’ll either continue like he is or he’ll get better. The team will still thrive with or without him.
I hear that based on the complaints of numerous brilliant Yankees fans there is a city-wide edict to re-name all the ice cream trucks after Javy Vazquez since he is, after all, the real life embodiment of Mr. Softee. He gets rattled when he walks by buses idling their engines because he confuses the engine sound with “boos”, and he proceeds to melt down, because after all he lacks mental toughness based on all sorts of empirical evidence.
Doreen,
That’s a good point about the timing of the interview. I am sure the Yankees coaches will work with him and they’ll figure it out.
Erica,
I can’t believe how many points my team scored. Wish I could bank them like my AT&T rollover minutes
Comparing CC to Vazquez is laughable.
You’re comparing a Cy Young caliber pitcher to a career .500 starter who has bounced around the league and only had a handful of good years.
If Vazquez was so good why is he working on his 7th or 8th major league team?
If starting pitching is so valuable and hard to find, why hasn’t Vasquez been able to stick anywhere for more than a few years?
Answer those questions then get back to me.
“Here’s where folks lose me…..questioning his guts and mental toughness.
How do you know he lacks guts and mental toughness?”
I didn’t assert anything, I said he pitches like he has no guts. I make that observation on watching him continually nibble, even to sub-par hitters. Maybe he just doesn’t trust his stuff, but I remember him pitching that way in his first stint here, even in the times when he is pitching reasonably well. Maybe that is just his style, and will never change. If so, I will always be frustrated watching him pitch.
Maybe I shouldn’t have said pitches like he has no guts, but he doesn’t show any willingness to have confidence in his abilities. Mike Mussina pitched in a similar style, and I was always frustrated by him, but he obviously had a much happier ending most of the time. Vazquez just reminds me more of Jeff Weaver in his style and results.
Fran (the original) and OPPC member April 26th, 2010 at 10:03 am
Erica,
I can?t believe how many points my team scored. Wish I could bank them like my AT&T rollover minutes
************
Good job.
Sadly, Erica’s Avengers sputtered badly.
I was complaining on Friday night to a friend that I thought my team was getting its first loss. And he laughed and said “Did you really think your team was going undefeated?”
Well……………….
Doreen, you are right, if you have no mental toughness you would not be in the majors. It is the same stuff people said about ARod being unclutch because of 45 AB’s in the postseason.
Now, I am concerned that Javy seems like a guy who is much better in the NL than the AL, but he did have an ERA of 3.74 in 2007 with Chicago…of course he followed it up with a 4.67 ERA. I was hoping he would give us an ERA on par with his lifetime ERA of 4.23, especially after “finding himself” in Atlanta. So far it is not there, but for a guy who usually has no control issues he is struggling in that department. I think once he gets that worked out he will get back to his career norms (not last year though).
Do you guys remember when Nick Johson was being groomed to replace Tino? I hated him then, because Tino was well, TINO. I don’t hate NJ now, but he seems awfully mamby-pamby to be a baseball player. I did think it was quite sweet that his music at the plate was Miley Cyrus (sp?) for his daughter. But when’s the last time I thought of a baseball player as…well…sweet?
I don’t like that he takes those called third strikes. Here’s hoping he finds his stroke before more injuries find him.
I miss Matsui.
Erica,
We all thought that the Yankees were going to go undefeated all season so why not Erica’s Avengers
I think Javy will turn it around eventually, but my real concern is how long Mark Melancon will toil in Triple-A. I know there is very little space for him on the roster, but the Yankees are going to have to give him a legit chance eventually – hopefully soon.
Besides his 2 stints with the Yankees he has pitched in the high stress environments of Montreal, Atlanta, Arizona, and Chicago White Sox.
His career record is 143-142. And you want to compare him to CC Sabathia.
Mamby Pamby? How exactly is NJ mamby pamby? The man has carved out a very good career for himself because he’s a very good hitter; this isn’t the NFL. Whew….
Hmm…I didn’t take Javy’s comment about his embarrassing pitching to be a sign of weakness at all, but of his honesty.
I agree with Doreen about Javy feeling the weight of erasing that really bad memory we all share. It was one game. He didn’t love the series all by himself. That being said, I wasn’t lovin’ the trade when it was announced. Cash seems to fall in love with NL pitchers who’ve had one good year or so…ugh.
SJ44 April 26th, 2010 at 8:57 am
Nobody is making trades after 18 April games. Its not Fantasy Baseball.
You ride out the cold streaks, look at the back of the guy’s baseball card, and realize he’s going to hit.
You don’t just lose the ability to hit because you got off to a slow start.
———————————————–
to be fair, if we are looking at the back of Nick Johnson’s baseball card then the most glaring stat is that he has been on the DL for half of his career
“love” was supposed to be “lose”
Tired.
The Yankees don’t owe it to Melancon to give him a chance up here; if they think he’s ready and if there’s a need for him, they will call him up.
all we need from javy is 200 fairly quality innings. right now he is on pace to accomplish neither one. Sure he can stay healthy all year. But leaving games after 4 innings is not going to get you to 200 innings.
Johnson had the 3rd highes OBP last season. The other two won MVPs.
What’s “ugh” about Vasque? He was brought in to be the #4 starter and to give us huge innings…..which he still can do.
miggs- GTLU Reigning Champion April 26th, 2010 at 10:10 am
Besides his 2 stints with the Yankees he has pitched in the high stress environments of Montreal, Atlanta, Arizona, and Chicago White Sox.
His career record is 143-142. And you want to compare him to CC Sabathia.
************
Dude- I am not comparing him to CC. I am citing him as an example of a pitcher who everyone turned on and turned it around. Everyone knows that CC is in an entirely different pitching class.
And I believe Javy’s stopover in Chicago included a world series ring. So can we increase the stress level of the Chicago team???
Miggs
Of course it makes sense seeing it now. The other 4 Yankee starters having good starts should let people be more patient with Vazquez rather than less patient though.
Despite a 9 ERA, Vazquez has a win. Despite Tex and Nick hitting below the Mendoza line, the Yankees have 12 wins.
History would indicate that at some point in the season those guys will be picking up their teammates the way their teammates are picking them up now.
miggs- GTLU Reigning Champion April 26th, 2010 at 10:04 am
Comparing CC to Vazquez is laughable.
You’re comparing a Cy Young caliber pitcher to a career .500 starter who has bounced around the league and only had a handful of good years.
If Vazquez was so good why is he working on his 7th or 8th major league team?
If starting pitching is so valuable and hard to find, why hasn’t Vasquez been able to stick anywhere for more than a few years?
Answer those questions then get back to me.
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then that is an indictment of cashman’s poor evaluation skills – paying 11 million dollars for a .500 pitcher is poor decision making..
I’m comparing him to CC Sabathia in terms of stuggles and how they handle it. Both guys have had slow starts to seasons in the past.
CC blew a 3 run lead to the Red Sox earlier in the year.
Fans were all over CC at this time last year. Many calling him a “bust”.
Heck, even the Daily News called him a “bust” after his first start.
Vazquez has the additional “burden” of fans being caught up in blaming him for 2004. That’s 90% of the anger directed toward him and its misguided.
These same fans wrote chapter and verse on how Alex Rodriquez could never play in NY, despite his success as a Yankee. Some even bought the media based “fact” the team was better off with Cody Ransom at third base last year. Remember those days?
Everybody struggles in this game. Its how you come out of it which determines your fate.
The guy has been a good major league pitcher for a long time and is coming off a great year last year. You don’t just lose it.
At some point, he’s going to put it together. The odds are overwhelming in his favor.
“”"The bottom line is, he either gets the job done or someone else will take his place at some point. Just like anybody else over a long baseball season.”
Hey rocket scientist, the point is we know he’s not going to get the job done. The mechanical issue is bogus and a cover for his broken spirit and lack of heart. Our GM made a Jaret Wright trade this past off season. Taking a chance on Dave Eiland coming back and pitching makes better sense.
If comparing Vazquez to CC is out of bounds because of their different pedigrees, take a look at Burnett as a comparison point. I think a lot of the same things got said about Burnett last year when he was in a stretch of pitching like “bad AJ”. They make similar amounts of money and are both basically .500 pitchers over their careers. Burnett is often referred to as a “headcase” when he has his terrible starts. Vazquez is now the softest professional athlete in history. Burnett though somehow found the magic juice that he needed to attain the almighty grit, guts and mental toughness to turn it around and pitch well enough to get the Yankees to the top, and now he has been enshrined as a True Yankee legend.
Vazquez on the other hand, because he hasn’t done anything in late April and has combined that with a bad stretch prior to his exit from the team 6 years ago, will never recover and is gutless and so on and so forth.
Some even bought the media based ?fact? the team was better off with Cody Ransom at third base last year.
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I can’t help but crack up every time I’m reminded of this.
Comparing CC to Vazquez is laughable.
You’re comparing a Cy Young caliber pitcher to a career .500 starter who has bounced around the league and only had a handful of good years.
If Vazquez was so good why is he working on his 7th or 8th major league team?
If starting pitching is so valuable and hard to find, why hasn’t Vasquez been able to stick anywhere for more than a few years?
Answer those questions then get back to me.
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CC is working on his 3rd team. Vazquez on his 5th. Have you considered that one must be wanted by MLB teams to continue being employed by them? ATL wanted to keep him but Derek Lowe’s contract was untradeable. Cashman wanted to keep him, but Steinbrenner made him trade for Randy Johnson.
And ozzie guillen is well, ozzie guillen!
And he certainly stuck in Montreal , where he pitched 1230 innings.
Comparing CC to Vazquez is laughable.
Not comparing the two. Just saying, how a player starts the season doesn’t necessarily correlate to how he ends the season.
Look everybody, the morning moron is here to give us all a lesson on the guts and fortitude of players.
Let’s sit back and observe the moron wax poetic on his findings. Its always good for a laugh in the AM before he has to go back to remedial reading.
Let’s not forget that Javy has made his starts against the Angels twice and Tampa and Oakland in the road. Those aren’t exactly easy teams to face when you are fighting your mechanics. Oakland has a weak lineup and he beat them. Him facing tough Lineups hasn’t helped his struggles or confidence.
“”"”"Granderson is probably next on the hit list.”"”"
He looks like a strike out machine against lefties. Yesterday, he swung at pitches so far outside of the zone that he looked like he was going to get whip lash.
What’s “ugh” about Vasque? He was brought in to be the #4 starter and to give us huge innings…..which he still can do.
___
huge innings? Like i said, 5.2, 5.1, 5.1, 3.2? Not big innings.
Yanks will be busy in May. Just checked the schedule, only 2 off days.
People need to lay off Vazquez. Deeming a guy a “gutless” bust after four starts is incomprehensibly stupid, especially when its a guy with his track record.
There are other things about this trade that are a bit more surprising right now. Vazquez was brought here to be a “number four” starter in name but more of a number 2 starter in terms of quality and length. I was convinced before this season that he had a very strong chance to be the second most effective pitcher on this staff and that such, as much as I disliked it, would be worth giving only one rotation spot to Joba and Hughes because it gave this team a legitimate shot to win 105-110 games.
Now you have to believe Cashman made this trade thinking two things – 1) Andy Pettitte was on his last legs and 2) There was a good chance Phil Hughes would be inconsistent this year. Now Hughes may very well still pitch inconsistently at times, but right now it looks like he has a damn good chance to put up Greinke-2008ish numbers. Its tough to put into context just how dominant he’s looked. And Andy? Well he obviously isn’t going to keep up the 1.29 ERA pace, but given the way he’s throwing if he can keep his elbow healthy he may be able to surprise us all and put up his best season since his second tour here.
If I had known Hughes and Pettitte would have looked this good to date there was no way I would have eschewed Joba to the bullpen, which everyone here knows I consider a short-sighted and irrational decision.
Why do people keep forgetting that not executing and not trying/lacking guts are completely different things? I can’t think of more than a handful of athletes that lacked guts. Maybe they lack certain abilities or they’re trying to hard, but they want to succeed more than anyone, certainly more than fans want them to.
“”"”Even if Vazquez bombs the team will be fine. With the way the rest of the rotation is pitching combined with the juggernaut offense, one subpar starter won’t bring the team down. He’ll either continue like he is or he’ll get better. The team will still thrive with or without him.”"”"
MLB is so out of touch when it comes to paychecks. His lack of performance is worth 11 million dollars? The unions have destroyed baseball. It’s a good thing he isn’t going to the White House today.
Betsy – Hughes rules (Pleading the Fifth) April 26th, 2010 at 10:25 am
Why do people keep forgetting that not executing and not trying/lacking guts are completely different things? I can?t think of more than a handful of athletes that lacked guts. Maybe they lack certain abilities or they?re trying to hard, but they want to succeed more than anyone, certainly more than fans want them to.
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I don’t understand that either-
If I made an accounting mistake at work would I get called “gutless”?? LOL
We’re talking 4 games as compared to the rest of the man’s career where he has been an innings machine.
Erica,
Not to pick nits, but the White Sox won the Series in ‘05 when Vazquez was with Arizona. They did everything they could to avoid using Vazquez in the playoffs in ‘08, but like the ‘04 Yankees, were forced to use him in their elimination game.
Erica, calling an athlete soft or gutless is about the worst thing you can call them and I think it’s completely inappropriate 99.99% of the time. Yes, your coworkers will boo you mercilessly as well, lol.
“he has been an innings machine.”
I had to watch the very annoying Angels broadcast yesterday, but they made a good point about Vazquez and his innings-eater label. Mark Gubizca asked “how valuable are those 200 innings if they are to a 5.00 or 6.00 ERA?” I think that is the point of those of us who have seen this show before from the AL Javy.
Not to pick nits, but the White Sox won the Series in ‘05 when Vazquez was with Arizona. They did everything they could to avoid using Vazquez in the playoffs in ‘08, but like the ‘04 Yankees, were forced to use him in their elimination game.
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They tried everything they could means… they started him in game 1? Floyd pitched game 4.
I had to watch the very annoying Angels broadcast yesterday, but they made a good point about Vazquez and his innings-eater label. Mark Gubizca asked “how valuable are those 200 innings if they are to a 5.00 or 6.00 ERA?” I think that is the point of those of us who have seen this show before from the AL Javy.
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Javy has never pitched to a 5 or 6 ERA in the past 10 years, why is that a reasonable expectation? And 200 innings of 4.5 ERA ball is very valuable.
Mark in Tampa April 26th, 2010 at 10:27 am
Erica,
Not to pick nits, but the White Sox won the Series in ?05 when Vazquez was with Arizona. They did everything they could to avoid using Vazquez in the playoffs in ?08, but like the ?04 Yankees, were forced to use him in their elimination game.
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Thats okay- not nitpicky. I figured I had a 50% chance of being right on that one. I am realyl swamped at work today to be honest and didn’t take the time to look it up
Look I understand what all of you are saying in regards to the fact that its still April and he only has had 4 starts, etc.
My point in the CC comparison is that the odds of CC improving last year IMO were significantly greater than the odds of Vazquez improving this year based upon their careers.
What is considered a “good major league pitcher”? Pitching 200 innings? Then yeah Vazquez is a “good” major league pitcher.
All I know is this. Vazquez has pitched 4 full season in the AL. His ERA for those 4 years was 4.91, 4.84, 3.74, and 4.67.
If you think this history shows that suddenly Vazquez is going to “turn it around” don’t hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
Maybe his mechanics will improve. Maybe he’ll start locating and add a few MPH to his fastball. But I don’t think even a combination of all those things are going to lead to drastic improvements in the results, which is all that matters.
Nick Johnson will need to work things out
Hope so needs to figure out alot. BTW Johnny Damon is hitting about .343 I think and his OBP is around plus he can play the field. If we were going to have a 30 something at DH I would have kept Johnny.
Mark in Tampa April 26th, 2010 at 10:31 am
I had to watch the very annoying Angels broadcast
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After three straight days of those guys, I couldn’t take it anymore. After the second inning yesterday I had the TV on mute. LOL
i dont think the angels broadcast is that bad. try sitting through a white sox broadcast or a rays broadcast. those are the WORST!!!
What Javy needs is another 2.3 MPH on his fastball. Which means it is a question of mechanics, not guts or mental toughness. Give him some time, he’ll find his fastball.
Trying to infer anyone’s mental state from there external actions, or body language is at best flawed, and oftentimes totally incorrect.
To say that anyone really knows, or even has a good clue as to how JV, or JC “feel” by using the above methods is about the same as reading “tea leaves”.
If any of you armchair Psychoanalyst’s out there have one of those new-fangled Digital Mind reader’s please let me know so I can get one too.
“”"”"”I think its time folks put 2004 to bed and relax a little bit.”"”"”"”
That’s right past results aren’t a guarantee of future results! Not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
tex’s friend (tantrum free for 12 hours) April 26th, 2010 at 10:36 am
i dont think the angels broadcast is that bad. try sitting through a white sox broadcast or a rays broadcast. those are the WORST!!!
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Don’t remind me about Chicago’s broadcast. Guess what I’ll be stuck with this coming weekend??? I hate Hawk with a passion. LOL
Betsy – Hughes rules (Pleading the Fifth) April 26th, 2010 at 10:28 am
Erica, calling an athlete soft or gutless is about the worst thing you can call them and I think it?s completely inappropriate 99.99% of the time. Yes, your coworkers will boo you mercilessly as well, lol.
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Haha- if we booed each other everytime we made the slightest mistake at work, it would be a hostile work environment to say the least
6 months prior to Randy Johnson getting acquired by the Yankees, he was throwing a perfect game with 96 and 97 mph fastballs.
6 months later, after being acquired by the Yankees, he was topping out at 94 mph.
It’s the great mystery of life. Come to the Yankees, lose velocity….
Bad luck?
“After three straight days of those guys, I couldn’t take it anymore. After the second inning yesterday I had the TV on mute. LOL”
So did I, but I did hear that observation first.
My mistake on JV and the clincher in ‘08. I guess I mixed that up with the Ozzie rant on his pitching. He still wouldn’t have started Javy in game 1 unless he was out of any other options.
Is Javy known as a slow starter? Did he pitch winter ball this year? IIRC, he said pitching in the WBC helped him last year.
MTU
how was your trip?
Erin
LMAO!!
So the news Angels guys are worse than Phys and Hudler?
“”"”"Nick Johnson will need to work things out
Hope so needs to figure out alot. BTW Johnny Damon is hitting about .343 I think and his OBP is around plus he can play the field. If we were going to have a 30 something at DH I would have kept Johnny.”"”"”"
What a surprise!!!! I can’t believe Damon is outperforming NJ!!! Wow, so hard to believe. Gosh, 2 years at 20 million was so ridiculous. Maybe NJ will play and stare at strike 3 a couple of times this Tuesday.
Hawk is by far the worst of them all. It’s not even a broadcast. It’s a cheerleaderfest and a 3 inning b–chfest when they dont like the call.
CR9, are you seriously using Johnson as an example? The guy was 40 + years old. I think thats your great “mystery.”
Unless you think that the pinstripes on Javy’s uniform have some mystical power over his arm to not throw as hard I have no idea what you’re talking about.
the white sox yankees games are home games so hopefully we get YES and not the Hawk.
Kate-
Thanks for asking.
It was great. Seeing the 2000 year old pictographs, and the scenery made it memorable to say the least.
Have a look for yourself.
http://picasaweb.google.com/cy.....lanteRiver
GC
I am suggesting the Yankees suffer from bad luck…
40+ years old or not, an established MLB pitcher does not lose 3 mph off his fastball in 6 months.
Had RJ been throwing 97 in 2002, came to us in 2005 throwing 94, I’d say it was his age. Unfortunately, 6 months can’t logically do that.
Kate, the real question is what kind of starts did Javy get off to aside from last year, which was a WBC year? If he’s previously gotten off to slow starts, then this year is just part of that pattern; if he’s never really been a slow starter, if his velocity is not usually this down at this point in the season, then something is wrong (health-wise, which I hope not, or mechanics-wise).
tex’s friend (tantrum free for 12 hours) April 26th, 2010 at 10:47 am
the white sox yankees games are home games so hopefully we get YES and not the Hawk.
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You probably will. But I live near Chicago, so I’m stuck with Hawk.
CR9 April 26th, 2010 at 10:43 am
Erin
LMAO!!
So the news Angels guys are worse than Phys and Hudler?
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I don’t care for the Angels guys at all. They’re not the worst, but I just don’t care for them.
GC
You have heard the saying, opposite from the camera adding 10 lbs., that the Yankee pinstripes make u lose 10 lbs, right?
Magic….possible?!
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You probably will. But I live near Chicago, so I’m stuck with Hawk.
__
sorry to hear that.
I see the there’s plenty of whining and snot slinging from the usual suspects about the Yankees, Girardi, Johnson and Vazquez. I’m shocked…shocked to find that going on in here.
Vazquez has never had much success against the Angels, regardless of which team he pitched for. Why would these 2 games be different?
I take a few things out of this 6 game romp with the Angels. Number one is the face that they split those 6 games, which is better the the recent norms. another thing, Howie Kendrick has made a really nice career out of killing the Yankees. In 6 games this year, he’s hitting .111.
They may have figured him out or it may be a fluke. Either way, he didn’t hurt them. Abreu has hit them pretty well, but, then again, he is a career .300 hitter.
The one that they can’t figure out is Morales. Only Pettitte has had any success in keeping him in check. Of the pitchers he has more than 3 at bats against, he’s hit hard.
Wood is the other one that NYY hasn’t figured out. He can’t hit anybody but Yankee pitching.
I have no idea what Vazquez’ issues are…mechanical or physical. Why isn’t Johnson or Teixeira hitting? No idea. Of course, the amateur doctors and psychologists will claim that Johnson is a physical wreck and Vazquez is a mental midget. Personally, I think that it’s a slump….nothing more.
Now, back to your daily glass of whine.
tex’s friend (tantrum free for 12 hours) April 26th, 2010 at 10:58 am
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You probably will. But I live near Chicago, so I’m stuck with Hawk.
__
sorry to hear that.
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Thank you! I’m definitely not looking forward to it. LOL
“I?ll be back with more from the White House this afternoon.”
Back to you, Wolf.
New Post: When a President calls you by name
new thread
betsy-
Here’s the answer to the question you posed re: JV’s early season starts in prior years. if you wish to study further the info. is from “baseball reference”.
2006 ERA after 6 games = 2.88
2007 = 3.52
2008 = 3.72
2009 = 4.19
I think Javy’s biggest problem is the inability to locate his fastball and unwillingness to challenge hitters. Everything is away, away, away…
I’m sure the Yanks would have been happy to sign Johnny for what he got from Detroit. He turned down more. We’ll see how the year plays out, but I suspect Johnny won’t finish the year at .323 and Nick won’t end up at .135.