Gardner out of the lineup
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jun 09, 2010 
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Dang, Hope he just needs a day or two…
“Can always count on Erin to appreciate my nonsequitors”
————————————————————
Erin is lovely.
I totally forgot about GGBG’s thumb in my GTLU submission
Speaking of the lovely Erin-
Did you see this????????????
I have my Christmas 2011 plans!
http://hollywoodinsider.ew.com.....tmas-2011/
mick June 9th, 2010 at 3:40 pm
Can always count on Erin to appreciate my nonsequitors.
***************************
That’s what I’m here for.
stuckey June 9th, 2010 at 3:34
This is assuming Pettitte is around next year, is it not?
Straightforward question – is this or is this not simply based on the premise you don’t believe what Gardner is doing is legitimate? Yes or no?
*******************
Yes, Stuckey, this is assuming Pettitte is around next year and that JOBA would have to spend a second straight year in the pen. If Joba’s not a candidate for the Yankees rotation then he’s worth more in a trade as a cost-controlled starter to a team who values him as such. Adding Lee basically banishes Joba from the rotation, just as adding Crawford banishes Gardner from the OF.
I think what Gardner is doing IS legitimate AND obviously cost-controlled , therefore, if you exchange him after this season, you should be able to add an equally legitimate AND cost controlled player of equal value in return. You should be able to get fair value.
Honest question, do you think the Yankees would get fair value for Chamberlain if they trade him after a full season of relieving?
I think what I’m saying is, either Lee or Crawford will be added and I’d prefer to deal Gardner after his 2010 campaign than Joba after his. As mentioned in the last thread, I like our 1-4 just fine with Andy back in 2011 and I want Joba to get another chance in the rotation. As you said, his stuff is there. I like the idea of having 2 cost controlled starters in the rotation in Joba and Phil.
Congratulations to Warning Track Power, today’s winner of GTLU!
vinny-b (Brett Gardner will never see the bench again) June 9th, 2010 at 3:42 pm
?Can always count on Erin to appreciate my nonsequitors?
????????????????????
Erin is lovely.
********************************
awwww….thanks vinny!!!
It seems like Warning Track Power always wins. Probably Girardi in disguise.
# mick June 9th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Worry stated as fact is not the same as concern stated as worry.
It does serve as a lightning rod to true believers.
=========================================
m
Well, actually, as an “un-Boston” fan, I have been a Lakers fan in these recent years that the Knicks have stunk. Why? Because I want the Lakers to overtake the Celtics for most championships. And believe me, my passion against the Celtics and for the Lakers is anything but disingenuine.
Warning Track Power had the audacity to play the Gardner hurt card. Kudos!
mick did you get my fantasy team from the last thread?
Patrick
At first glance, it seems you have a heckuva team, surprised Erica took 2 of 3 from you.
Erica in NY June 9th, 2010 at 3:44 pm
Speaking of the lovely Erin-
Did you see this????????????
I have my Christmas 2011 plans!
http://hollywoodinsider.ew.com…..tmas-2011/
***********************
OMG, awesome!!!! Thanks for the link
Think my parents will understand if I skip out on Christmas dinner to go see the Muppets???
Have you and Erica had any trade talks?
Not surprised and I doubt the rain is helping.
Shame, Phil did get it done in the 2007 playoffs; I hope last year was just an aberration because he was very bad. He also acted unusally for him. Late in the season he screamed at an ump for bad calls and then after a playoff game he went AWOL from his media session. Maybe it was just a bad time for him…..but my “concern” about the rest of the year isn’t founded on the playoff performance; it’s just founded on what young pitchers normally go through.
Erin June 9th, 2010 at 3:49 pm
OMG, awesome!!!! Thanks for the link
Think my parents will understand if I skip out on Christmas dinner to go see the Muppets???
***********
Of course!!!!
Tell your mom its retribution for her not allowing you to move in with Ernie and Bert when you were 4.
The bigger question is, how do I convince the 12 members of my family that I normally go to movies with on Christmas Day to see a muppet movie???
I had Russo in there but I thought it would be for ARod.
Thumb issues? Gardner is a bust, sign Crawford for $14M!!!
bret,
Where your reasoning fails is that if you assume Gardner is “legit”, the Yankees aren’t going to trade a cost controlled player to add Crawford, who may be a similar player, for huge dollars.
They, and not another team, will take advantage of Gardner’s production as a cost controlled player.
Erica in NY June 9th, 2010 at 3:51 pm
Tell your mom its retribution for her not allowing you to move in with Ernie and Bert when you were 4.
The bigger question is, how do I convince the 12 members of my family that I normally go to movies with on Christmas Day to see a muppet movie???
********************************
Oooh…I like that retribution part.
I’ll try to come up with something re: convincing your family. The good thing is, we have lots of time to think of something!!
Have you and Erica had any trade talks?
—
Nope.
See, I like my team too but a mixture of bad luck and me benching the wrong guys has put me in last place.
can you believe Brian Jordan has a son old enough to play baseball? Anyway, the balance of the below article also covers other players selected. Fine info. Compliments of River Avenue Blues:
“Despite all of the potential offered by those three I just mentioned, centerfielder Kevin Jordan (19) just might be the best prospect they draft this year. Brian’s son, Kevin started the year as one of the best high school players in the country before missing time with a flu-like illness that cost him 15 lbs. off his already lean 6-foot frame. The lefty swinger is an explosive athlete that shows very good raw ability on both sides of the ball with the innate ability to center the ball on the barrel of the bat. Jordan offers the same tremendous ceiling as Gumbs, though he’s further in the process of turning his physical gifts into baseball skills”
“Adding Lee basically banishes Joba from the rotation, just as adding Crawford banishes Gardner from the OF.”
And herein lies the flaw in you logic.
There is NO debate at this moment who would be the more effective starter, Lee or Chamberlain. The argument for adding Lee into the rotation instead of Chamberlain is clear-cut.
As of this moment, that some argument does not apply to Gardner/Crawford. They’re providing pretty comparable production, and I’d even go a step further and say for THIS Yankee team, Gardner’s current advantage in OBP is in fact a better fit.
“I think what Gardner is doing IS legitimate AND obviously cost-controlled , therefore, if you exchange him after this season, you should be able to add an equally legitimate AND cost controlled player of equal value in return. You should be able to get fair value.”
But if you are saying your subjective view of Gardner is not a factor here, then you’re arguing a policy, that the Yankees should replace effective-cost controlled players for free agents (with much higher price tags) providing comparable production, in order to turn the cost-controlled player into a market asset.
Do I read this wrong?
“Honest question, do you think the Yankees would get fair value for Chamberlain if they trade him after a full season of relieving?”
I don’t think there is a person on earth that can currently calculate what that is exactly, to be honest.
“I like the idea of having 2 cost controlled starters in the rotation in Joba and Phil.”
As opposed to left field?
I’m still seeing a disconnect…
Ledger_Yankees A rainy day in Baltimore as Yankees wait to face Orioles http://bit.ly/cCPqri
SJ,
My reasoning is if Crawford is signed, Gardner is an asset to be used in a trade because he no longer fits into the Yankees OF.
My reasoning is if Lee is signed, Joba is an asset to be used in a trade because he no longer fits into the Yankees rotation.
My reasoning is I’d rather upgrade LF from Gardner to Crawford and trade Gardner after his 2010 campaign instead of upgrade the rotation from Joba to Lee and trade Joba after Joba’s 2010 campaign.
Is your reasoning that 2 cost controlled players cannot be exchanged for each other and have not ever been exchanged for each other in the history of trades?
is anyone seeing funky characters in Chad?s posts or is it just me?
Give Me Upside or Give Me Death (River Avenue Blues):
http://riveraveblues.com/2010/.....gth-29877/
Seems like there’s always rain looming when CC starts
vinny-b
Gumbs looks great.Hes a switch hitter with plus,plus speed and serious power.Great clip of him switch hitting over on RAB draft thread comments. Only problem is he might go to USC. I realy hope we sign him. Sign Cito and Jordan and Gumbs. Also please sign the Canadian Lefty .Over all seems like the draft could have realy good possibilities for Yanks. For the record was never against Cito. Hes gona be a Yankee. Just realy liked what Castle looked like he could have brought to the table.
Erin June 9th, 2010 at 3:54 pm
Erica in NY June 9th, 2010 at 3:51 pm
Tell your mom its retribution for her not allowing you to move in with Ernie and Bert when you were 4.
The bigger question is, how do I convince the 12 members of my family that I normally go to movies with on Christmas Day to see a muppet movie???
********************************
Oooh…I like that retribution part.
I’ll try to come up with something re: convincing your family. The good thing is, we have lots of time to think of something!!
———————————————————————————————————————-
Is it too late for you to threaten to run away from home, because your parents never let you do nuffin’?
See, I like my team too but a mixture of bad luck and me benching the wrong guys has put me in last place.
===========================
Patrick
Where are you having trouble? Your hitting looks good. No Beckett hurts. Bad luck?
stuckey June 9th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
“Adding Lee basically banishes Joba from the rotation, just as adding Crawford banishes Gardner from the OF.”
And herein lies the flaw in you logic.
There is NO debate at this moment who would be the more effective starter, Lee or Chamberlain. The argument for adding Lee into the rotation instead of Chamberlain is clear-cut.
**********
Just as there is NO debate at this moment who would bring back fair value in a trade, Gardner or Chamberlain. The argument for trading Gardner after his 2010 campaign as opposed to Joba after his is clear-cut. Factor in the higher cost of Lee over Crawford and the fact that our 1-4 is set for 2011 if Pettitte returns.
Ledger_Yankees Will be interesting to see how Gardner’s thumb feels today. He’s not in the lineup today. Russo is in left field.
I’m thinking Girardi’s just giving Gardner an extra day. At least I’m hoping that’s the case. lol
“I like the idea of having 2 cost controlled starters in the rotation in Joba and Phil.”
As opposed to left field?
I’m still seeing a disconnect…
************
Look harder.
GTLU Standings as of Today:
For further details, click on my name to see the GTLU site.
Fran (the original) 14
Erica 11
Erin 11
RL15 11
NYY626 9
RayVT 9
upstate kate 8
champ809 7
Dave F 7
IDCWYT 5
Joe from Long Island 5
Patrick from CT 5
Phil Columbus 5
Roger(Amsterdam) 5
Unknown 5
CT23 4
SAS 4
Warning Track Power 4
AL Duque 3
Andrew 3
muffinstum 3
steveoh 3
Trevor 3
13 are tied with 2 wins
29 are tied with 1 win
GreenBeret7 June 9th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
Is it too late for you to threaten to run away from home, because your parents never let you do nuffin??
*************
I don’t live at home anymore. Tell dad I am running away doesn’t have the same impact. LOL
# Bret the Hitman June 9th, 2010 at 3:59 pm
My reasoning is I’d rather upgrade LF from Gardner to Crawford and trade Gardner after his 2010 campaign instead of upgrade the rotation from Joba to Lee and trade Joba after Joba’s 2010 campaign.
———————
Here lies my main disagreement. Crawford is only a marginal gain in production to Gardner at the cost of $14M~ more. Lee is a gigantic production upgrade over Joba for similar cost, because you are getting a bonafide #1 type starter.
If I had to spend $14M more on a player, I’d want the largest production upgrade possible. It’s just business.
I didn’t know I was back in second!!!!!
I an never going to catch Fran
I’ve read that Jordan may be a difficult sign………here’s hoping the Yanks can get it done.
Fran-
I got an exclusive GTLU tip that Girardi is going to start Pena in every game from now on in lead off.
You should submit that line-up everyday.
hehehehehe
Here lies my main disagreement. Crawford is only a marginal gain in production to Gardner at the cost of $14M~ more. Lee is a gigantic production upgrade over Joba for similar cost, because you are getting a bonafide #1 type starter.
If I had to spend $14M more on a player, I’d want the largest production upgrade possible. It’s just business.
*************
But you’re not spending $13-15 million for your rotation upgrade, you’re spending near $20 million for Lee over Chamberlain in the regular season and Lee over Hughes in a playoff game.
GreenBeret7 June 9th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
Is it too late for you to threaten to run away from home, because your parents never let you do nuffin??
****************************
Yes.
I believe I only tried that once. I can’t even really remember what I was so mad at. lol
Patrick
Where are you having trouble? Your hitting looks good. No Beckett hurts. Bad luck?
–
I have 2nd to worst pitching staff in the league.
Also, I have made some dumb moves benching certain guys. I’ve consistently had a big chunk of points sitting on my bench. So that part is my fault but my pitching could be much better.
Hey where has cb, randy and pat m. been lately.
Erica in NY June 9th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
Fran-
I got an exclusive GTLU tip that Girardi is going to start Pena in every game from now on in lead off.
_________________________________________________
Erica, this is not even funny as a joke!! Scary.
“Just as there is NO debate at this moment who would bring back fair value in a trade, Gardner or Chamberlain.”
There doesn’t need to be one. That’s NOT what we’re discussion. The argument is why trade either of them, and your answer is comparing the potential return of the two, which is an irrelevant answer.
“My reasoning is if Crawford is signed, Gardner is an asset to be used in a trade because he no longer fits into the Yankees OF.”
That’s circular logic. We’re trying to discuss why trade Gardner’s production for Crawford’s?
Again, the question is why doesn’t Garnder fit in the 2011 plans?
“My reasoning is I’d rather upgrade LF from Gardner to Crawford”
And this is the point I’ve been making all along with you seem reluctant to acknowledge.
Your argument is entirely based on the premise an actual, significant “upgrade” would occur.
NYY626 June 9th, 2010 at 4:08 pm
Erica, this is not even funny as a joke!! Scary.
***********
Oh come on. I am sitting here hysterical laughing. I am hilarious
lol @ O’Conner
He wrote an article to compliment Pelfrey (and rightfully so, he has been one of the best pitchers in baseball so far), and then took a dig at Hughes saying he pitched better than him yesterday.
Patrick,
You should trade away some of your excess hitting for some pitching.
Have you tried?
# Bret the Hitman June 9th, 2010 at 4:06 pm
Here lies my main disagreement. Crawford is only a marginal gain in production to Gardner at the cost of $14M~ more. Lee is a gigantic production upgrade over Joba for similar cost, because you are getting a bonafide #1 type starter.
If I had to spend $14M more on a player, I’d want the largest production upgrade possible. It’s just business.
*************
But you’re not spending $13-15 million for your rotation upgrade, you’re spending near $20 million for Lee over Chamberlain in the regular season and Lee over Hughes in a playoff game.
—————–
Even if it were $20M….
$20M to upgrade Joba to Lee (massive upgrade in rotation, no matter how you think about it), keep Joba in the bullpen as an EIG, and get Gardner’s usual production in LF
$15M to marginally upgrade Gardner to Crawford, lose Joba in the bullpen, have to acquire an EIG via trade or FA, relegate Gardner to the bench or trade him, and carry the risk of inconsistent Joba starting 25-30 games in your rotation.
That’s why I think Lee is a better use of resources.
Why does it sound like a debate club here sometimes?
That was funny! Trying to sneak your way into the top spot!
And what will Brett Gardner realistically bring you back?
JJ Putz maybe?
Not going to get some top reliever for him or top prospect.
We’re trying to discuss why trade Gardner’s production for Crawford’s?
*********
Nope. YOU’RE trying to discuss trading Gardner’s production for Crawford’s.
I’m trying to discuss adding Crawford while KEEPING Gardner’s production as an asset.
Doreen – GTLU Stuff & Photos June 9th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
Congratulations to Warning Track Power, today’s winner of Guess The Line Up.
I am not Girardi, haha!
Yes I did guess that Gardner would get the night off due to his thumb injury.
Had confidence Joe would do the right thing and insert Russo in LF, not Thames
Erica in NY June 9th, 2010 at 4:10 pm
NYY626 June 9th, 2010 at 4:08 pm
Erica, this is not even funny as a joke!! Scary.
***********
Oh come on. I am sitting here hysterical laughing. I am hilarious
___________________________________________________________
(ok i may have laughed too, but still, that’s SCARY)
Betsy 4:04
I think thats the only reason he fell so far down the list. The good thing about not getting Castle is now we have more money overall .So hopefully we can sign more guys. I realy,realy want Gumbs but hes already got a full ride to USC. Thats going to be Hard to get him to turn down. Also the big lefty canadian hasnt even picked a school yet. So hopefully he just wants to play ball.
$20M to upgrade Joba to Lee (massive upgrade in rotation, no matter how you think about it), keep Joba in the bullpen as an EIG, and get Gardner’s usual production in LF
**************
I’m not willing to pass up an opportunity to have 2 cost-controlled starters in the rotation in Joba and Phil. There’s too much money to be saved. $20 mil for Lee is a case in point.
You should trade away some of your excess hitting for some pitching.
Have you tried?
–
Not yet, I haven’t been paying much attention to my team to be quite honest. Perhaps it’s time to make it good
“Gumbs looks great.Hes a switch hitter with plus,plus speed and serious power.Great clip of him switch hitting over on RAB draft thread comments. Only problem is he might go to USC. I realy hope we sign him. Sign Cito and Jordan and Gumbs. Also please sign the Canadian Lefty .Over all seems like the draft could have realy good possibilities for Yanks. For the record was never against Cito. Hes gona be a Yankee. Just realy liked what Castle looked like he could have brought to the table”
———————————————————————-
SacFly: have a feeling the Yankees will sign Gumbs. Not worth much, but i don’t think the Yankees would’ve taken him that high this year, if they didn’t believe they would sign him.
yes, i really like the overall draft strategy this year. With the Yankee major league team very solid, and a fair amount of depth, it was time to take chances this year
I bet you one of this group (Heathcott, Gumbs, Mason Williams, Kevin Jordan) replaces Austin Jackson
Bret,
i’m saying that they won’t sign Crawford if Gardner continues to be this good.
That’s what I am saying.
They will use their resources to go after Lee because, in the end, pitching is what wins. Especially starting pitching.
Considering there isn’t a comparable starting pitcher as Lee hitting free agency anytime soon, if Gardner continues to produce, I don’t believe they will go after Crawford.
They certainly won’t take on that kind of payroll and then try to trade Gardner. it doesn’t make financial sense for the Yankees to do that.
Also, once a team knows you have to move somebody, they aren’t giving you anything of value back in return.
Bret,
You are also making an assumption that Joba is going back to the rotation next year.
That most likely isn’t going to happen.
Rolex June 9th, 2010 at 4:11 pm
And what will Brett Gardner realistically bring you back?
JJ Putz maybe?
Not going to get some top reliever for him or top prospect.
*************
What is Joba Chamberlain going to bring you back at this point?
If Gardner finishes on his current pace throughout the season, he’s worth a HECK of alot more than JJ Putz in the off season.
top reliever minimum.
Hi Doreen,
I believe I got the lineup correct yesterday and should have 6.
Thanks,
patrick
# Bret the Hitman June 9th, 2010 at 4:14 pm
$20M to upgrade Joba to Lee (massive upgrade in rotation, no matter how you think about it), keep Joba in the bullpen as an EIG, and get Gardner’s usual production in LF
**************
I’m not willing to pass up an opportunity to have 2 cost-controlled starters in the rotation in Joba and Phil. There’s too much money to be saved. $20 mil for Lee is a case in point.
————–
I’m not willing to pass up an opportunity to have a cost-controlled player in the outfield. There’s too much money to be saved. $15M per for Crawford is a case in point. You’re not even getting a significant production boost.
The statement above is similarly applicable. I haven’t even gotten into why Crawford isn’t a great investment, but that’s a totally different topic.
Mike, I posted about that this morning – wasn’t that a joke? What does Phil have to do with Pelfrey? I haven’t see ONE article by O’Connor about Phil……has he even watched him pitch this year? Phil screwed himself when he pitched poorly in that Met game, lol. That said, Pelfrey has been OUTSTANDING……..
I’m not comfortable at all with a CC-Burnett-Hughes-Pettitte-Joba rotation next year at all…. too much uncertainty. Lots of assumptions that Hughes will progress, Andy will be lights out, Burnett at age 34 will pitch the same, and the biggest assumption is that Joba can be an everyday member of the rotation. What did we see last year or out of the pen so far this year to make people think he can? His mechanics are still as bad. Oh and where do we go if there is an injury?
When you have a chance to add Lee to our rotation, you do it.
vimmy-b 4:14
Deff like the more for a buck approach. Agree on your list to.Did you see that video of GUMBS I was talking about.Heathcott has been doing very well so far since his promotion. Very excited for our Yankee future just from our farm teams and draft perspective.
SJ44 June 9th, 2010 at 4:16 pm
in the end, pitching is what wins. Especially starting pitching.
***************
I agree SJ, but I believe the Yankees have already blown their wad on frontline starters.
And I can’t stand saying that – ugh, I despise the Mets.
For Nick in SF,
His Austin Jackson update…..
For the month of June, Austin is at .242 (8-33). He’s 1 for his last 20 with 6K’s and 0 RBI.
Over his last 25 games, he’s hitting .247, 0 HR, 6 RBI, 4 BB, 26 K’s, .287 OBP, .325 slugging, .613 OPS.
NYY626 & Cr9-
I didn’t think Fran would actually fall for it, but
I’m not convinced other teams value Gardner as highly as people here.
Re: Jackson, like I said, once he stops hitting, he becomes useless. No OBP and no SLG.
If you hear what Andy has been saying lately it sounds like he’s likely going home and staying home afetr this season. Cliff Lee is a must sign! no brainer!
Why does getting Crawford need to push Gardner out the door? You can always move Swish to DH.
Or Gardner could be a very good 4th OF
I know! It was funny nonetheless!
John, I agree. I’m not worried about AJ – he’ll be fine, he’ll be what he is. Andy, however, is 38 (will be 39 next year) and he’s no guarantee. Phil should progress, but who knows ? This will in essence be his 2nd year as a starter and many have faltered (Pelfrey, Buchholz to name 2). I’m not saying he will, but he’s no lock to be great next year. They really do need another pitcher; I’m just hesitant over Lee.
“Nope. YOU’RE trying to discuss trading Gardner’s production for Crawford’s.
I’m trying to discuss adding Crawford while KEEPING Gardner’s production as an asset.”
Just a few moments ago you argued free agent Carl Crawford should replace Gardner in LF and then Gardner should be traded.
“My reasoning is I’d rather upgrade LF from Gardner to Crawford and trade Gardner”
So I guess that means we’re into the boil this down to semantics stage of the discussion.
And you continue to avoid direct questions about your claim Crawford would be an upgrade.
Ledger_Yankees Yanks facing the righty Chris Tillman. BTW Swish just walked into the clubhouse, says there’s only a slight drizzle.
Ledger_Yankees Just came out onto the field; the grounds crew has pulled the tarp off the infield.
They haven’t blown their wad on starting pitching next year at all.
Andy is year to year.
Hughes is cost controlled.
AJ and CC will be in Year 3 of their deals.
Javy is a FA and that slot is open.
How did that they blow their wad on pitching? The bullpen is cheap, they have a cost controlled LF, their CF is making pocket change, comparatively speaking, and even Swisher has a friendly contract.
As does Cano I might add, who may be coming off an MVP season.
They have the money to add Lee if they so choose.
Why hesitant over Lee, Betsy?
ArtieA June 9th, 2010 at 4:22 pm
If you hear what Andy has been saying lately it sounds like he’s likely going home and staying home afetr this season. Cliff Lee is a must sign! no brainer!
______________________________________________________________________
I thought the same thing about Andy last year. And look how that turned out
Swish at DH is a terrible idea. You already have production in RF. No need to mess with that.
Gardner has been more than fine in LF. I still don’t get why he needs replacing.
Offense is fine. Get pitching I say.
If Bett Gardner bats .280 .360 and scores 100 runs, they have no need for Crawford.
An upgrade from JV to Lee for an extra 6-7mil per year is worth it.
If Andy retires, Lee’s value goes up.
I’m not willing to pass up an opportunity to have a cost-controlled player in the outfield. There’s too much money to be saved. $15M per for Crawford is a case in point.
*************
Aren’t cost-controlled starting pitchers more valuable than cost controlled outfielders?
I always thought that cost-controlled commodities like Phil and Joba are the currency of baseball.
ArtieA June 9th, 2010 at 4:22 pm
If you hear what Andy has been saying lately it sounds like he?s likely going home and staying home afetr this season. Cliff Lee is a must sign! no brainer!
***********************
Andy has been saying that for a while now.
Andy Pettitte for 2011!!
“Re: Jackson, like I said, once he stops hitting, he becomes useless. No OBP and no SLG”
———————————————————————
he does play a nice centerfield, tho
“Why does getting Crawford need to push Gardner out the door? You can always move Swish to DH.
Or Gardner could be a very good 4th OF”
There is a fundamental divide happening here that I believe is always going to stand between common ground on this issue.
There are two distinct camps, one that believes to the Yankees $14m or so a year is not relatively significant, and camp that feels it is.
Harper, Bruce Murray, and Madden were having the same Pelfrey/Hughes conversation on SNY yesterday.
Harper/Murray chose Hughes. Harper mentioned he is 3 years younger and has 4 pitches he can control, Murray said the BB/K ratio is better and he throws a tick harder and likes him to sustain it over the long haul better than Pelf.
Madden choose Pelfrey and said because of his “demeanor” and his ability to go deep into games. Also that he has much more responsibility than Hughes and has gotten over the mental hurdle.
They had that same debate on LoudMouths… Schien chose Hughes. No idea what Carlin chose because I had to take a call, but I figure he chose Pelfrey because he is a Mets schill.
Andy Pettitte is just learning how to pitch.
He could go on as long as Moyer.
SJ,
23 for the ace.
15 for Burnett
15 for the Andy
That’s plenty for my taste.
You’re talking about 4 starters making an average of 18 million dolllars in 2011.
Are you kidding me?
Do you think they will go doubleheader tomorrow if there’s a rainout? I’ve got tix tomorrow and would love to see CC pushed back.
“Aren’t cost-controlled starting pitchers more valuable than cost controlled outfielders?
The question is moot. One doesn’t have anything to do with one another.
I believe the possibility you’re not considering is the Yankees aren’t required nor does wisdom dictate they have to sign Carl Crawford OR Cliff Lee.
If you want to debate WHICH would be the more prudent signing of the two, that’s perfectly valid.
But either/or is not a given.
The Yankees may be wise to have the cost-controlled Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain in the rotation and Brett Gardner in left field.
o you think they will go doubleheader tomorrow if there’s a rainout? I’ve got tix tomorrow and would love to see CC pushed back.
==============================
They both have on off day on 9/16, the day before a 3 game set in Balt.
The only position that is open next year is DH. Everyone else is locked into their spots.
Do you do a Jorge/Montero (looks very iffy now) platoon at DH/C?
Do you sign someone to DH?
We already have a LF’er, we don’t need another one for $14 million.
Rain for CC again? Someone tell him to work fast.
hey, doreen,
what happen to my “p:”
do i have to play gltu again to earn it back?!
Mick, too many years, too $$ and not young. We discussed this yesterday and several people made very persuasive points……a part of me wants Lee, but a part just doesn’t want to keep spending for FA pitchers anymore. Every year it seems we need pitching because we’re either replacing an older pitcher or a younger one who couldn’t get it done. I had hopes at the beginning of the season that Javy, if he pitched well, would maybe be re-signed, but I don’t think that’s happening (and I wouldn’t re-sign him either at this point).
The Yankees may be wise to have the cost-controlled Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain in the rotation and Brett Gardner in left field.
******************
Of course.
Now you just have to find a replacement for Joba in the pen.
“Why does getting Crawford need to push Gardner out the door? You can always move Swish to DH.
___
Posada is going to be doing a lot of DH’ing next year.
I just cant believe that every time CC is on the mound, it seems like there are poor weather conditions! Darn it!
one of the comments on RAB:
“I got to speak with Cito Culver’s uncle, he works at the same place my uncle does, he told me 12 other teams were scouting Culver with intentions on taking him in the draft”
Wait, what’s wrong with Phil’s demeanor?
Pelfrey this year does have a lot more responsibility than Hughes, there’s no way around it, but that doesn’t answer the question as to who you would take for the future. Also, Phil has regularly gone 7 innings and could have gone 8 at times; the innings limits won’t always be there. I’m not knocking Madden for choosing Pelfrey, but he’s chosen odd reasons. Mental hurdle? I saw this discussion on Wheelhouse recently and the host mentioned that. Brandon Tierney and Mark Malusis mentioned something to the effect that why should Phil be penalized for not having that hurdle to overcome? Well, actually he has overcome some mental hurdles associated with his confidence issues after his injuries, but I know that’s not what Pelfrey went through.
How hard does Pelfrey throw, anyway?
Why do people assume that Joba can handle a full time starter’s gig, when he can’t even get major separation from the pack that is the Yankee bullpen?
But then what are you saving the money for (that you save from not signing Lee or Crawford)?
We are not going to be in the 1st base hunt when all the big boys are FA. The starting pitching list for 2011 and 2012 are both awful. Unless you want the CJ Wilsons or Edwin Jacksons of the world. The OF list is full of mediocre guys or older guys.
Simply put, there is not going to be a Lee or Crawford for the market for a while. So what are you saving money for?
Thanks Mick. My hope endures.
bret,
One year of Andy Pettitte vs. 5-6 years of Carl Crawford. Not gonna happen if Gardner continues to produce.
Andy is also making 11.75 this year bret. He’s not going to make 15 million next year if he comes back. He will stay at the same one year amount.
At this point, its not even a negotiation with him anymore. He likes going year to year.
They don’t have another starter ready to replace Vazquez next year. Its not Joba.
That slot is available for Lee and I suspect they will sign him unless the bidding becomes dumb (which I doubt) and other factors (a trade, for example) takes place.
What happens is Javy accepts arbitration?
Lee? No thanks. Much rather go with Joba in the rotation.
I’m adding to my “bold” prediction. If Pettitte re-signs the Yanks won’t get Lee or Crawford and Joba will be in the rotation.
What happens is Javy accepts arbitration?
IF
Vblade, look at what Joba did in the rotation last year. Not bad. And he will improve with more experience next year.
Pelfrey’s velocity looks about the same as Hughes… low 90s, lots of 92-93s. An occasional 94. Hughes is probably able to dial it up more than Pelfrey when he has to, but they generally sit in the same area.
Pelf’s stuff moves so much though, thats why he gets so many ground balls. He throws a heavy ball.
Patrick June 9th, 2010 at 4:41 pm
Lee? No thanks. Much rather go with Joba in the rotation.
—————-
Seriously? You seem to be pretty confident in Joba being able to make people forget about Cliff Lee in 2011.
Ledger_Yankees Good sign: O’s out on the field stretching as the grounds crew puts the tarp away down the right field line.
YankeesWFAN Another debut in DC. Former Yankee top prospect Jose Tabata leading off and playing LF for Pirates.
Seriously? You seem to be pretty confident in Joba being able to make people forget about Cliff Lee in 2011.
—
Not saying Joba will be soooo good that people won’t want Lee. It’s just that I don’t see the Yanks wanting to invest 5 years 18 mill in a staring pitcher when they already have 4 very good staring pitchers.
Joba had a 7 ERA in the 2nd half last year
His starter stats are inflated by 3 good starts after the ASB.
Also, his peripherals are awful… he had a lot of games where he labored and didn’t give up any runs (that Mets game comes to mind where he gave up 1 hit, but 4 runs and he hit a ton of guys and stuff).
# Charlie June 9th, 2010 at 4:41 pm
Vblade, look at what Joba did in the rotation last year. Not bad. And he will improve with more experience next year.
——————-
The fact that the Yankees felt the need to go out and get Javier Vazquez says volumes about what they think of Joba and the prospects of him holding onto a starting gig.
“Of course.
Now you just have to find a replacement for Joba in the pen.”
True.
I think where we diverge is I don’t think it’s wise to spend $14m on an 8th inning set-up man under ANY circumstances, no matter how dire, which if you take a step back and look in macro-viewIS the premise of your argument.
You want to sign a $14m LF, in order to free up a $500k LF giving you comparable production, with the specific intent to put him on the market to obtain a set-up reliever.
You can show complicated mathematical formulas, but at end of the day your end product is you’re outlaying $14m or more a year and netting at the end of the day the production of an one-inning reliever.
Clint, Phil does not throw in the low 90′s – that’s not where he’s sat for most of this year. Phil’s FB moves plenty, too – they just don’t have the same repertoire at all.
I don’t like assuming that Andy will keep turning back the clock every year. How long can that elbow hold up anyway?
Joba in the 5th spot is very scary if last year was any indication. He’s not going to give us innings and have a lot of mediocre starts.
Lee is a great insurance policy for all of our questions.
However, thanks for the info – I don’t know much about Pelfrey.
Gardner, so far this season, is hitting just about as good as Crawford is. Many people keep expecting him to fail, but as it stands now, the numbers don’t lie.
Why pay a premium for a guy like Crawford, when Gardner does it for 1/10th of the price?
Don’t see the Yankees puttting Joba back in the rotation. I also don’t think that would be the tipping point as to whether or not they persue Cliff Lee.
I can see why people wouldn’t want to spend on Lee, but what I don’t see is why they’d want to spend that same money on Crawford instead. It baffles me.
maybe cb, randy, pat m and trisha are all hanging out at the cape selling randy’s trinkets.
The fact that the Yankees felt the need to go out and get Javier Vazquez says volumes about what they think of Joba and the prospects of him holding onto a starting gig.
—
Did it also say a lot about Hughes when the Yanks gave an obviously injured Wang his rotation spot last year? And then handed it over to Mitre/Gaudin when Wang-a-rang failed?
Joba will be in the 2011 rotation, book it.
Pelfrey is a groundball/sinker pitcher. His movement generates ground balls.
Him and Hughes are in the same ballpark, velocity-wise. Hughes might have 1 MPH on him.
Joba over Lee is a tough argument to make.
I can see the Yanks moving on from Petite and Johnson and giving their money to Cliff Lee.
Who wouldn’t want Crawford but at some point spending wildly may force MLB’s hand.
I doubt Jeter or Mo are going to take a pay cut, payroll could be a tough fit.
“The fact that the Yankees felt the need to go out and get Javier Vazquez says volumes about what they think of Joba and the prospects of him holding onto a starting gig.”
I can play this game.
What does this say about the Yankees thinking that despite the year-to-year uncertainly of Pettitte, the utter uncertainly going into the pre-season about any of the 5th starters, that they gave up a couple of young players, including a highly-regarded low-level pitching prospect, for a guy on a 1 year contract?
Can’t it suggest perhaps they believe they still have some 2011 rotation candidates in-house?
Clint, Phil does not throw in the low 90’s – that’s not where he’s sat for most of this year. Phil’s FB moves plenty, too – they just don’t have the same repertoire at all.
—
Phil does sit in the low 90′s as a starter. Avg fastball velocity this year is 92.5
Patrick June 9th, 2010 at 4:49 pm
Joba will be in the 2011 rotation, book it.
***************
I smell a friendly wager.
I am not anti-Joba, but I wouldn’t book it.
Would you care to put your money where your mouth is?
# Patrick June 9th, 2010 at 4:49 pm
The fact that the Yankees felt the need to go out and get Javier Vazquez says volumes about what they think of Joba and the prospects of him holding onto a starting gig.
—
Did it also say a lot about Hughes when the Yanks gave an obviously injured Wang his rotation spot last year? And then handed it over to Mitre/Gaudin when Wang-a-rang failed?
Joba will be in the 2011 rotation, book it.
————-
The Wang situation was horribly mismanaged. They thought they were getting their 20 game winner back, but he was clearly not right. The brass seemed to view him as the same guy who won back to back 19 games, but that was a flawed assumption.
Hughes lost his starting job to the perception of a 20 game winner Cy Young candidate that didn’t really exist.
Anyway, I digress. I could talk about that mismanagement for hours, but it’s all in the distant past.
YankeesWFAN Rainout in Philly ruins Halladay-Sabathia matchup for next Tue in NY.
“Why pay a premium for a guy like Crawford, when Gardner does it for 1/10th of the price?”
Gonna be closer to 1/25th-30th.
the bullpen was the best thing for hughes. obviously. how can you argue with results this year?
Hughes lost his starting job to the perception of a 20 game winner Cy Young candidate that didn’t really exist.
–
Ok well Joba lost his job to a Cy Young candidate too. Vazquez was 4th in the NL voting last year. I don’t see there being such a big difference here…
# stuckey June 9th, 2010 at 4:50 pm
“The fact that the Yankees felt the need to go out and get Javier Vazquez says volumes about what they think of Joba and the prospects of him holding onto a starting gig.”
I can play this game.
What does this say about the Yankees thinking that despite the year-to-year uncertainly of Pettitte, the utter uncertainly going into the pre-season about any of the 5th starters, that they gave up a couple of young players, including a highly-regarded low-level pitching prospect, for a guy on a 1 year contract?
Can’t it suggest perhaps they believe they still have some 2011 rotation candidates in-house?
———————–
Or, they believe that it’s possible that Vazquez may be more of a long-term fit than we realize. Instead of paying $20M to Lee, they can choose to pay $12-13M for a “re-acclimated to NY” Vazquez. Your point is valid though.
Still, I wouldn’t bank on Joba being handed a starting spot when he hasn’t even completely found himself working out of the bullpen.
Betsy – Hughes rules (Pleading the Fifth) June 9th, 2010 at 4:33 pm
Mick, too many years, too $$ and not young
================================
We don’t know how many years. 3 would bring him to age 35, not old. Leftys at the Stadium are Key, (remember him)?
YankeesWFAN Rainout in Philly ruins Halladay-Sabathia matchup for next Tue in NY.
___
Wonder with a rain out, if the Phils will move Halladay up and face Boston.
the bullpen was the best thing for hughes. obviously. how can you argue with results this year?
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And being in the bullpen will help Joba next year when he’s back in the rotation.
Friendly wager Patrick….
A virtual beer Joba isn’t in the Yankees rotation next year.
Erin June 9th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
YankeesWFAN Rainout in Philly ruins Halladay-Sabathia matchup for next Tue in NY.
**************
I would be okay with never facing Halladay again
Ledger_Yankees Posada on his foot: “It feels good. I have no complaints.”
# Patrick June 9th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
Hughes lost his starting job to the perception of a 20 game winner Cy Young candidate that didn’t really exist.
–
Ok well Joba lost his job to a Cy Young candidate too. Vazquez was 4th in the NL voting last year. I don’t see there being such a big difference here…
——————
He didn’t lose his job to Vazquez directly.
Joba lost his job to last year’s EIG, who hasn’t even put together a full season of being a SP at that point. He had a decent year last year, but losing out to an EIG with no significant ML starting experience (even if the kid is Phil Hughes), doesn’t bode too well.
“Can’t it suggest perhaps they believe they still have some 2011 rotation candidates in-house?”
Or they knew this offseason offers the best group of FA starting pitching in years.
SJ44 June 9th, 2010 at 4:55 pm
Friendly wager Patrick?.
A virtual beer Joba isn?t in the Yankees rotation next year.
***********
You are friendlier than me. I wasn’t thinking virtual beer.
I was thinking money
And being in the bullpen will help Joba next year when he’s back in the rotation.
___
Maybe, but Joba already spent time in the pen. I think he needs to be in better shape, and challenge more. Hughes doesnt nibble all over the plate. he throws strikes.
“Still, I wouldn’t bank on Joba being handed a starting spot when he hasn’t even completely found himself working out of the bullpen.”
Oh, of course.
I think when arguments like this arise, the more skeptical should realize the optimistic are basing their arguments on a CONDITION, the condition being that over the remainder of the season, Chamberlain can/may make a case that he needs to be reconsidered.
I don’t think anyone would argue that if the season ended today, that he has not successfully made that case.
YankeesWFAN Gardner will get xrays on sore left thumb. “Definitely a little bit of discomfort.” Same thumb he fractured last year.
Patrick, the Yankees were not going to Yank Phil out of the pen and put him back in the rotation…….they weren’t going to take any chances with his arm. They thought Wang was ready to start; Phil didn’t go to AAA because he was pitching well enough to stay up here.
Joe, Phil was throwing a lot harder earlier this season and Phil the Thrill says he should gain even more velocity. Who knows? I’ve heard a million different things about Phil’s velocity. Right now he’s mostly 93-94, I think.
Joba’s already spent time in the pen on two different occasions. Don’t know what else he could pick up that he still hasn’t.
Joba lost his job to last year’s EIG, who hasn’t even put together a full season of being a SP at that point. He had a decent year last year, but losing out to an EIG with no significant ML starting experience (even if the kid is Phil Hughes), doesn’t bode too well.
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No I think SJ44 is pretty spot on when he says that the Yanks went out and got Vazquez because they didn’t want Joba starting.
SJ44, you’re on.
I am leaving work now.
We can discuss all friendly/unfriendly wagers later
I hope Gardner isn’t break that thumb again. That would be a big loss, given the year he has had so far.
Patrick
If she is alright with it, I’ll pay you $100 for 2 of your players on your fantasy team for a friend, via paypal. Then, when Joba is not in the 2010 rotation, you pay me my $100 back. And if he is, then you keep the $100.
He’s going to have to straighten out his mechanics before he can start. Otherwise, it is the same guy we saw last year.
Even this year, his mechanical differences are apparent appearance to appearance. They thought putting him the pen will allow him to repeat the mechanics and get some consistency with them… hasn’t happened, yet.
Crawford is overrated. Brett Gardner is basically giving you the same thing Crawford give you. Crawford has a little more extra base power. But besides that why would you pay 15 million for Crawford when GGBG is giving you the same type of production.
Jayson Werth is a better player than Crawford if the yanks sign an outfielder this offseason it should be Werth.
Signing Cliff Lee would be the smart decision. Pettitte will retire. And put Joba back as the 5th starter. He is struggling in the bullpen because he is a starter. He had a 3.58 era through 110 ip last year. People giving up on Joba are the same people that gave up on Hughes a couple of years ago.
Sabathia
Lee
Burnett
Hughes
Chamberlain
Hopefully that is next years rotation.
Great news on Brett, lol
Ledger_Yankees Gardner wearing a wrap on his thumb. Doesn’t think it’s broken but it’s uncomfortable enough to check it out.
# SJ44 June 9th, 2010 at 4:59 pm
I hope Gardner isn’t break that thumb again. That would be a big loss, given the year he has had so far.
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This guy is an imposter, ignore him.
Bummer, Patrick…….. I guess those early starts were pure adrenaline.
New Post re: Gardner
Hughes’ average velocity is 92.5
Pelfrey’s is 91.9
Right around the same ballpark… .5 mile difference.
Pelfrey’s velocity is about a MPH down from his last 2 years though. He was 92.7 and 92.8 in 08 and 09.
But Cashman is a certified moron so he will make the wrong moves in the offseason.
Give me some of that Joba beer/money, you can’t be serious about him going back to the rotation. He’ll be traded first.
Mick, I would go for 3, but I doubt Lee would.
Patrick, the pen isn’t the panacea for every pitcher. It worked for Phil, it might or might not work for Joba – and that’s assuming everything else is equal. What Phil needed was confidence that he could get major league hitters out and that’s what the pen provided, on a regular basis. Joba’s problems are different.
I think the only certified moron here is you XLJ.
Bummer, Patrick…….. I guess those early starts were pure adrenaline.
–
Actually Phil’s velocity has been very consistent throughout the year.
From his first start until last night his average 4-seam fastball velocity has been:
92.1
92.6
92
92.7
94.3
92.9
92.5
91.5
92
92.4
92.7
Hughes has a higher average velocity from May 1 to June 8 than he had from April 1 to May 1