Hughes: “You have these days and you battle”
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jun 09, 2010 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
When a group of a dozen or so writers gathered around Phil Hughes’ locker last night, he quickly noticed someone was missing. The YES Network is usually there, and Kim Jones usually asks the first question. There was no Kim last night.
“You guys better come up with some questions,” Hughes said.
That’s the Yankees fifth starter. He’s 23 years old, living up to his lofty potential and feeling comfortable in the moment. Last night he joked with ease, then broke down his outing with unflinching honesty and perspective.
“The stuff just wasn’t great,” he said. “Command-wise I was a little off. You have these days and you battle and hope that we do score enough runs. You just have to tip your cap to them. They took a different approach than they did last game I faced them. They were more aggressive and didn’t let the counts get too deep.”
Joe Girardi’s evaluation was simple: “I’ve seen him sharper but he was pretty good.”
Hughes has been so good this year that six innings and three runs — with no walks and no extra-base hits — seems like a bad game. It wasn’t. Last night wasn’t his best game, but it was enough, and learning to win without great stuff is part of the process.
“It’s great when you do get those cheap ones sometimes,” Hughes said. “You don’t feel good and you’re stuff isn’t good but you’re able to go out there and not get rocked. It’s a good feeling, not having your best stuff and still pitching decent.”
Associated Press photo.
Hughes sounds like a vet instead of a 23 year old kid.
Oops, Stuckey ? sorry, you meant Swisher, not Gardner. LOL I agree, then.
No way, no way does Burnett go to the pen; not only doesn?t he deserve to be shunted there (he?s a good to very good pitcher), but I don?t think he?d be good at all. At least as a starter, if he doesn?t have great stuff, he can try to work around one bad inning; there?s no shot of that as a reliever. Asking him to do that would be unfair.
If the Yankees ever removed Phil from the rotation, that would be a joke. I can see it in the playoffs, but geez ? let the kid pitch.
Huuuuughes!!!
Age is a number. Experience makes you a vet. He was a main cog in a championship run and has been hanging around one of game’s most professional teams for parts of 3 years.
Hughes has been so good this year that six innings and three runs ? with no walks and no extra-base hits ? seems like a bad game. It wasn?t. Last night wasn?t his best game, but it was enough, and learning to win without great stuff is part of the process.
***************
If you were just reading a boxscore, this would be a quality start
Repost:
The Yankees seem to have made a good choice with their #1 pick.
The Yankees are not trading for Lee unless someone goes down for the year. They will go hard after him this Winter if he is a FA and it?s probably going to take 100mil to get him.
With every game Brett Gardner makes it less likely that the Yankees go after Crawford. Crawford will be 5th or lower on the list of FA players the Yankees will try to sign for 2011; 1,2, and 3 are Jeter, Mo, and Andy.
?You guys better come up with some questions,? Hughes said
*****************************
Erica
Fair enough. But so you know, I was thinking of a fair trade. (2 for 2, with Morneau coming back in exchange for Teixeira)
I know that in fantasy, everybody thinks they are the Red Sox and tries to fleece the other person. But I believe in fairness.
With all that said, I have absolutely 0% decision making on the friend’s team, just throwing out ideas.
I?m missing Phil?s Innerviews, lol.
The kid has a good head on his shoulders and his mature beyond his years, but that?s no surprise ? that was his rep and that?s how he?s acted since he?s been in the majors. As Joe and Evan said on WFAN this a.m.., Phil has nothing to be ashamed of. He had a big lead and he threw strikes ? ok, the O?s got hits, but he didn?t walk anyone. This was the 3rd time he?d faced the O?s in just 11 starts this year and first time he?d faced a team back to back and he did fine. They made adjustments, but it?s not like they tattooed him. Phil?s been a bit up and down recently, but he?s learning how to pitch without his best stuff and that?s going to help him down the line; he?s just a really good pitcher already. Imagine what he?ll be like when he really grows up? Think about all the progress Pelfrey and Buchholz have made in the last year or so and then think how Phil is 2 years younger than they are. I wish I could have heard the O?s broadcast; MG mentioned last night how Palmer and Murray were raving about Phil. Palmer has always liked Phil, even as far back as 2008, in that game where the O?s wondered afterwards what the big deal about him was.
Stuckey, I replied to your post in the previous thread.
Sorry for all the ? – I have no idea why they popped up in my post
“No way, no way does Burnett go to the pen; not only doesn?t he deserve to be shunted there (he?s a good to very good pitcher), but I don?t think he?d be good at all.”
I agree it’s just more an “what if?” exercise, but I don’t believe it’s punishment (you and I have discussed this before) and I in fact think Burnett would be GREAT in the pen.
He can dial up the fastball and keep it simple with the fastball and hammer curve.
CR9 June 9th, 2010 at 11:23 am
Erica
Fair enough. But so you know, I was thinking of a fair trade. (2 for 2, with Morneau coming back in exchange for Teixeira)
**********
I would def consider Morneau for Tex, if that person would like to negotiate with me
This wasn’t a cheap win, it’s not like Phil gave up 7 runs……….but I certainly love that he’s not satisfied.
Phil Hughes may only be 23 but he’s been around the big league club for 3+years now. He has grown a lot and should be a part of the rotation for many years to come.
Let’s hope Joba can follow the same path and work his way back to the rotation in 2011.
A lot of good young pitchers starting to step up: Hughes, Price, Romero, Cecil, Bucholz, off year for him but Porcello too. Witnessing a changing of the guard in the AL.
Michael Kay doesn’t like to pronounce the H in his name. Phil Use. He has to be different, So annoying. Others say Hughes.
Fran Yanks is the owner of Justin Morneau.
Erica
Thanks. I will talk to her and see what she says. But she needs to improve her team as well.
Hughes has 39 career starts, when do we stop with the whole ‘he’s 23 years old’ thing?
Hughes has always been mature beyond his years, and this year is really showing that. A great young man, and outstanding ball player. Here’s hoping he stays healthy, and continues his success.
Hughes has 39 career starts, when do we stop with the whole ‘he’s 23 years old’ thing?
—
When he turns 24?
Hughes, Burnett, and Sabathia is a plenty good front three. One of them needs to be cost controlled.
————-
Hughes is already cost controlled.
I call BS on the King article. Not a shock considering who wrote it, but the Yanks aren’t trading for Cliff Lee this season unless disaster strikes with the rotation and they do so out of desperation.
Cashman doesn’t “pay twice” for impending free agents.
They may end up getting Lee at some point, but it won’t be until the offseason.
Its not a matter of team improvement for me. I am sure its a statistical fluke. Tex is a great player. My dad thinks I am insane to consider trading him. Its just for some reason, he does not seem to hit unless I bench him. I have no idea what to do because obviously I care about the Yankee season, but I want to my team to do well too.
Erica
You can’t trade Tex. Then we’d have no control over when he needs to be put in reserve.
Pirates are bringing up old friend Jose Tabata to kick off his big league career today.
Patrick, So in two weeks time it’ll be ‘he’s just 24 years old”?
” I just didn’t think he could hit and get on base at this clip….he has to come it up a while longer but he’s looking like a keeper.”
Honestly (and I’ve said this previously) I can’t claim I saw anything in this swing or anything like that. In fact if you got back to April 2009 I openly questioned how he could succeed with his swing.
It was simply putting aside my personal bias and at the end of the year, looking at what his results were from 2008 to 2009, and reminding myself what he did in the minors.
I simply wait for kids to flatline in terms of growth before assuming they will. I’ll keep an open mind about this growth curve so long as it continues to trend in the right direction.
Young players have a funny way of showing when they’ll stop getting better….
The actually stop getting better…
In fact, if he has another solid month and I’ll probably move onto my next pet project – getting people to keep an open mind about Joba Chamberlain.
Funny thing his in a lot of ways he’s the anti-Brett Gardner, trending the wrong way, but there are some signs there and I don’t think people should give up on him.
Phil gives the most honest interviews since… Phil Coke.
I love to hear him break down his starts, and say things like “Yeah, I’ve thought about the possibility of going to the All-Star game.”
He’s been such a treat to watch this year.
Patrick, So in two weeks time it’ll be ‘he’s just 24 years old”?
—
Yeah pretty much..
pat June 9th, 2010 at 11:34 am
Erica
You can?t trade Tex. Then we?d have no control over when he needs to be put in reserve.
**************
Its a league of blog followers. You could probbaly still control whoever I trade him too.
LOL- but that comment is the exact reason why I want to trade him. I can’t handle this pressure
Erica
Okay. Understood.
Here was my thinking: Morneau is a better hitter than Teixeira.
However, the reason to keep Teixeira for your team is that he is due to break out and “turn it on” at some point. In addition, he plays his home games with the short right field in Yankee Stadium. Whereas Morneau plays his games in the pitcher’s park in Minnesota, where he is unlikely to hit many HRs there.
Tex is back! You could see it in his body language last night. No more nonsense, he will be on fire for a while.
Erica , if you need a GM, let me know, I’d be glad to help.
vin June 9th, 2010 at 11:36 am
Phil gives the most honest interviews since? Phil Coke.
*************************
Coke’s interviews were hilarious. I kind of miss them. LOL
mick June 9th, 2010 at 11:40 am
Erica , if you need a GM, let me know, I?d be glad to help.
**********
Thanks Mick.
I appreciate the offer.
# Sal June 9th, 2010 at 11:27 am
Michael Kay doesn’t like to pronounce the H in his name. Phil Use. He has to be different, So annoying. Others say Hughes.
=========================
Did you catch his Shervelli pronunciation? When Jon Miller does it, it sounds unpretentious.
Why does Kay always have to make a name for himself, doesn’t he have enough jobs.
CR9 June 9th, 2010 at 11:38 am
Erica
Okay. Understood.
Here was my thinking: Morneau is a better hitter than Teixeira.
*************
You raise some good points.
I think I am going to ride out this week with Tex on my bench and then (gulp) unbench him. I am sure this is a fluke and coincidence. It makes no sense whatsoever that sitting on my bech can actually have any effect on his hitting.
Mick said at 11:39 that Tex is back. I am going to believe that and ride him out. I have come this far, I cannot give up on Tex now!
Stuckey, for AJ – I think it would be a punishment. He’s a starter and a good one….I get what you are saying, but it would be humiliating for him.
Erica, if you want to email your roster to me that’s a start.
Take Tex off the bench tonight, Erica! He will certainly rake in Balt.
Erica
Think of keeping Tex in reserve as a sac. bunt. It doesn’t show up in your numbers but it helps the team.
ah Phil Coke, he did do some great interviews. My favorite was the time he got a save.
mick June 9th, 2010 at 11:46 am
Take Tex off the bench tonight, Erica! He will certainly rake in Balt.
**********
I would love to do that. You can make changes at any time, but they are only effective on Mondays before the first game. I am locked in to my current line up until Monday
Erica
I dont think any one here will or should begrudge you for unbenching him.
And that’s coming from me, the king of superstitions.
And the way Mick said that as well has me believing it too!!
Kay is from the Bronx, so that’s probably it; my father says things funny sometimes. He doesn’t call Phil by his name; he just asks how “my boy” is doing, lol
Roster of Erica Avenger:
Posada, Jorge C NYY
Glaus, Troy 3B ATL
Pedroia, Dustin 2B BOS
Wright, David 3B NYM
Cabrera, Orlando SS CIN
Crawford, Carl LF TB
Damon, Johnny LF DET
Lee, Carlos N. LF HOU
Guerrero, Vladimir DH TEX
Active Pitchers MLB
Buchholz, Clay SP BOS
Carmona, Fausto SP CLE
Niemann, Jeff SP TB A
Pavano, Carl SP MIN
Sheets, Ben SP OAK
Bell, Heath RP SD
Soria, Joakim RP KC
Reserve Batters MLB
Teixeira, Mark 1B NYY
Soriano, Alfonso LF CHC
Reserve Pitchers MLB
Garza, Matt SP TB
Wells, Randy SP CHC
Ely, John RP LA
Wow. Thank you informed leaguer
Stuckey,
I’m with you on Joba. I’ve seen a lot of positive signs this year masked by the bloated ERA, and almost think that aforementioned ERA portends good things for his return to the rotation.
Joba in so many ways reminds me of David Wells. Wells was a starter in the minors but by necessity was shifted between the rotation and bullpen for a long time in Toronto. I don’t have the internet speed to check it right now but I don’t believe it was until 1993 of 1994 (six or so years into the league) that he settled in as a regular starting pitcher.
Joba has the same booming personality, conditioning issues, and plus-plus stuff that Wells had around the same age. I’m sure Wells was maddening around Toronto those days too, but he embraced being shifted back and forth and ended up as one of the winningest lefties of this generation. Had he shown a bit more commitment to his craft I have no doubt he would have been one of the greatest ten lefthanders ever to pitch.
So if you’re from the Bronx you get to be pretentious? Did not know that.
Thank you IL, but will need the other rosters to be able to make some trades.
mick June 9th, 2010 at 11:56 am
Thank you IL, but will need the other rosters to be able to make some trades.
**********
Informed Leaguer, please don’t go that far.
But we can all examine my roster and how good it is on paper and collectively scratch our heads as to why it continuously fails…. sigh
DOREEN
Please credit me with a GTLU win last night as they have been few and far between for me.
I typed it across the page not up and down as usual, did not know the consequences.
Thank You,
MICK
Erica, you need more quality starting pitching.
If the M’s are willing to move Cliff Lee, and the Yankees aren’t buyers, then a top contender may grab him, and extend his contract, thus, no Cliff Lee FA. Sometimes you have to pay twice to get the deal you want. If the Yankees make the playoffs, Lee could mean the difference between #28, and going home empty.
Holy Geez! Your best pitcher is Clay Buchholz. Mick is right, you need more starting pitching.
He says “SHervelli “? Oh please. Bob Lorenz did a nice job over the weekend, and Singleton is awesome. Such a noticeable difference when Kay is and is not there, as there was last year when Singy and Coney were doing the games. They flowed. Nobody trying to get fancy with the english language and using big michael kay words , trying to impress everyone.
Trade David Wright to a Met fan for a good starter. Don’t they get more points in general than position players?
mick June 9th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
Erica, you need more quality starting pitching.
**************
Yes- I have identified that as my achilles heel.
My dad tipped me off to Ely over the weekend. I had nothing to lose. But in this league, pitching starts are heavily weighted. My opponent had more starts than me so I made sure I started the pitchers with the most starts this week. Otherwise I would have activated Garza over Carmona.
Stuckey,
I didn’t see anything in his swing last year that would suggest he could play this well either, which is primarily why I felt the way I did.
However I do see it this year..k long should get a medal or something for the work he’s done with Gardner, Swisher, and Granderson vs Lefties.
Ill join you on your Joba crusdade…I’m sure MTU would come imf as well.
Singy and Coney were doing the games. They flowed. Nobody trying to get fancy with the english language and using big michael kay words , trying to impress everyone.
============================
O’Neill goofs on him all the time and Kay doesn’t know it.
mick June 9th, 2010 at 12:02 pm
Trade David Wright to a Met fan for a good starter. Don?t they get more points in general than position players?
************
Last week, I actually turned down a trade for Bautista and Garcia on STL for Wright. I recognize my need for pitching, but I felt like Wright is worth more than that
“Holy Geez! Your best pitcher is Clay Buchholz.”
Best one after Neimann
Erica,
Who is starting at 1B if Tex is benched?
You have Glaus, doesn’t power translate to more points?
Erica
Im not sure if you want to do that or not. And I get the feeling that the person who is offering those 2 is trying to fleece you. He/she probably expects Bautista and Garcia to fall off and start performing poorly, so he/she wants to unload them for a proven hitter like Wright.
However, Wright plays in Citi Field – horrendous for hitters – and has been striking out an alarming rate.
I wonder, has Wright helped your team this year?
mick June 9th, 2010 at 12:06 pm
You have Glaus, doesn?t power translate to more points?
************
Yes. I picked up Glaus last week to play 1B while I rebenched Tex.
So far this week Glaus has earned me 8 points, while Tex earned 11.5. I can live with that so far
You have got to revamp your roster Erica . Why do you have 3 LF’s and Cabrera as your only SS?
CR9-
I did turn it down. It looked like a classic case of trying to sell high.
Wright has has one week below 10 points (which I consider bad). However, he has been quite steady actually. Through the first 9 weeks of the season he has averaged 20.56 points for me per week.
What’s the situation with Posada as your only C. Did you have someone else when he was out?
mick June 9th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
You have got to revamp your roster Erica . Why do you have 3 LF?s and Cabrera as your only SS?
****************
You really only get one active SS. Fielding position doesn’t matter. An outfielder is an outfielder and you get 3.
I started with Cabrera. Dropped him for a while for Theroit, then came back to Cabrera
“What’s the situation with Posada as your only C. Did you have someone else when he was out?”
I have Posada in two leagues. If he’s out, I just grab Cervelli off the waiver wire.
Doreen
I have an appointment and wont be around for GTLU, so I hope you will accept mine early
SS Jeet
RF Swish
1B Tex
3B Alex
2B Robbie
DH Po
CF Grandy-man
C Cisco
LF GGBG
thanks
mick June 9th, 2010 at 12:11 pm
What?s the situation with Posada as your only C. Did you have someone else when he was out?
*******
Yup. I had Cervelli. (who immediately nosedived)
I dropped Cervelli as soon as Posada reactivated. Unfortunately you only get 5 reserve spots
Boston Dave is owner of Garcia and Bautista. Other pitchers are:
Greinke
Halladay
Lee
Perez
Wilson
Haren
Lidge
Garcia
Price
Liriano
Marcum
Mick, I didn’t say that; I meant that’s why he pronounces names like he does.
Erica, I don’t know much about Jaime Garcia but just looked at his stats and I would make that deal, just to get him, a winning starter on the Cards, a 1st place team.
Bautista leads the AL in Hr’s. Do it.
Erica
You made the right decision. It was a classic case of selling high.
If you are going to give up Wright, you better be getting back one of his top-flight pitchers. And his entire roster is filled with top-flight pitchers.
I like the David Wells-Joba comparison. I wonder if Wells has ever talked to Joba…
mick June 9th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Erica, I don?t know much about Jaime Garcia but just looked at his stats and I would make that deal, just to get him, a winning starter on the Cards, a 1st place team.
Bautista leads the AL in Hr?s. Do it.
**********
My logic for turning it down was that Wright has been solid for me.
I believe Bautista cannot keep it up. And I am not sold on Garcia. At least not David Wright sold
Boston Dave is loaded with pitching. See if you can get some of it.
mick
I understand your thought process. I had similar thoughts until I saw Dave’s pitchers.
In fantasy sports, you have to give up something to get something. He is trying to better his offense without giving up any of his top-flight pitchers.
That’s a fleecing.
Don’t wins get you major points? The Cards will win around 90 games and Duncan is a pitching guru, get more pitching Erica, you have to give to get and Wright is replacable with Glaus.
And doesn’t Bautista play 3B as well as OF? Versatility is big. Do that deal!
Thank you guys very much for your input.
I am going to have lunch.
Boston Dave will be glad to know I am formulating trades in my head to make with him
Again, you’re right. Bautista cannot keep it up. Garcia may be able to, but it is highly unlikely. And certainly not worth David Wright.
Erica, I’m out, don’t listen to him/her.
My team has been performing way worse than Erica’s
I love the talent on my team too, I just don’t get why I’m doing so poorly
mick
A win gets you something like 7 points. But wins are not guaranteed. Your bullpen can blow leads. Strikeouts, less walks, and guys who pitch a lot of innings are worth more. David Price.
Glaus is not Wright. Not anywhere close.
Well, apparently, Erica already had the same thought process as me – without you telling her to not listen to me.
Great minds think alike!
Today’s Guess The Line Up is Open for Business
Lineups will be accepted until 3 p.m.
Good luck!
******
upstate kate –
I have your lineup.
I love you guys, but couldn’t possible care less about your fantasy teams and trades.
So, Gaudin must have pictures of Cashman in compromising situations with farm animals, otherwise why hasn’t he been released yet? Just asking…
Lineup:
Derek Jeter SS
Nick Swisher RF
Mark Teixeira 1B
Alex Rodriguez 3B
Robinson Cano 2B
Jorge Posada DH
Curtis Granderson CF
Francisco Cervelli C
Brett Gardner LF
I know, so imaginative right?
Patrick and the other poster who answered by question about Justified
Thanks very much! I am now looking very forward to watching the last 3 episodes.
I hope your team performs better, Patrick.
mick -
I added your lineup and your victory to my records. The standings at the end of today will reflect the update.
When I’m doing GTLU, especially if I have other things going on, I scroll and look for format. That’s why I missed you. It’s also why on a couple of occasions I’ve found myself typing names from the past, future or fantasy before I realize it wasn’t a GTLU submission!
Doreen – another righthander, so I think the same lineup as last night –
jeter ss
swish rf
tex 1b
alex 3b
cano 2b
jorge dh
curtis cf
cisco c
brett lf
cc p
GTLU- I’m Back!
Derek Jeter SS
Nick Swisher RF
Mark Teixeira 1B
Alex Rodriguez 3B
Robinson Cano 2B
Jorge Posada DH
Curtis Granderson CF
Francisco Cervelli C
Brett Gardner LF
Hi Doreen,
With a couple of guys nicked up, my guess is that someone will get a day off.
Jeter-SS
Swish-RF
Tex-1B
Cano-2b
Posada-DH
Granderson-CF
Cervelli-C
Gardner-LF
Russo-3B
SS Jeter
RF Swisher
1B Teixeira
3B Rodriguez
2B Cano
DH Posada
CF Granderson
C Cervelli
LF Gardner
Thanks!
Hi Doreen,
My line-up
Derek SS
Swisher RF
Tex 1B
ARod 3B
Robbie 2B
Jorge DH
Curtis CF
Cisco C
Gardner LF
Thanks
Phil was good last night. Carpenter (Ace Cardinals) was on the mound for St Louis, went 7 innings @97 pitches, and they still lost 1-0 Dodgers. Phil has the most wins of any in the rotation, he should relax because you are doing great.
I’m worried about Gardner’s sore thumb.
I hope it won’t affect his play because he’s been absolutely wonderful so far this year.
re: Chamberlain
I normally don’t like to play the “if you take away his bad appearances” game, but with him it’s so glaring it’s hard not to.
Take away the 3 appearances/2 innings he blew up in May, and otherwise Chamberlain has a 1.90 ERA in 24 appearances over 23.2 innings.
His indicators are pretty good too.
He has over a 10.5 K/inning ratio. A VERY healthy 3.75 W/K ratio. And we see the velocity improving consistently.
The Yankees just have to figure out why he’s SO bad when he doesn’t have it.
I get the dream scenario is we’d see a total repeat of what happened to Hughes from ’09 to this year with Chamberlain going into next year, but I’m not certain some adversity won’t ultimately be healthy for the kid.
He’s still got some mental maturing to do and the season is still relatively young. He’s got a lot of time left to leave the ghost of those 3 May appearances in the past.
“So, Gaudin must have pictures of Cashman in compromising situations with farm animals, otherwise why hasn’t he been released yet? Just asking…”
My theory is they’re going to try to hide him on the roster until he can get some time with Dave Eiland and try to rediscover what they found together last year.
stuckey -
You don’t have to convince me. Open-minded is my middle name.
Did anyone notice so far ,Greinke is 1-8, and Felix Hernandez is 3-5 . Philis doing great.
Why should we take away his bad performances, Stuckey? They count.
Erica
I’ve been a fantasy champ for the last 5 yrs and run way too many teams in too many leagues my advice would be to get a better SP back in that deal….The other gm is trying to sell high on both Bautista and Garcia and Wright should get5 you back more than Garcia at this point.
I own all 3 players in question and while I like Jaime Garcia’s upside in Dynasty David Wright is still more valuable than both players. This guy has tremendous SP and Garcia is probably his worst starter and his highest risk. The Cards will limit him to maybe 150 or so innings as he’s beened injured 2 of the last 3 yrs and is a rookie this season.
I am a believer in Baustista and actually drafted him as my sleeper on 5 of my teams and while he’s not going to hit 40 HRs I think he’s a legit power threat who’s made an adjustment that is paying off for him. I think he hits 30 HRs if he stays healthy this season. I’d like to see the BA tick up to .270+ but that may not happen.
Wait, so for those who don’t want to pretend Joba’s 3 horrible outings didn’t happen, we’re not open-minded?
Scratch that last comment – pretend I never said it.
I am open-minded about the possibilities that still could exist for Joba.
You don’t so much “ignore” the bad outings as put them to the side for a minute to see the other side of the picture. So much emphasis has been put on the poor outings, and not unrightly so, because they affected the outcome of ballgames negatively, but it’s also not fair to ignore the positive outings he’s had. They have also affective the outcome of ballgames, but in the far more forgettable positive aspect.
I think stuckey has a point – why have the bad outings been SO bad? I think it’s a fair question, and an “answer” to Joba may lie in the answer to that question.
Also, don’t the good outings show that he’s making progress, even if there are backward steps in that process?
What really bothers me about last nighs game, is if you look just at the box score. The game appears v close, Gaudin came in gave up 4 runs in 2 innings, and it looked like a close game.
I thought Mo was going to have to come in and close!
Betsy,
What is it with you and Joba? It’s like he ran over your dog or something.
I think their point is that Joba’s numbers look a lot worse than his actual overall performance. Just pointing out that his really horrible outings are not the norm with him and his peripherals indicate that as well.
You did the same thing (as did I) when defending Hughes last year. His horrible start against the O’s was just a really bad day at the office and it largely affected the fans and writers’ perception of his performance when he was in the rotation.
Of course they all count. But if he’s been good to really good in 24 appearances and horribly bad in 3 appearances, it’s worth pointing out.
I just noticed that the MLB draft is still going on. I’m slightly offended that I haven’t been picked at this point.
**affected, not affective
and not “don’t the good outings” but “couldn’t the good outings.”
Joba is just 24 people need to realize he’s just a kid!
Or, does that reasoning only work for those 23 and younger?
GF, that’s unfair of you….but whatever, I’m not going to debate with you why you think I’m biased. I don’t think he’s been that great this year either, so if you think he has outside of those outings, then ok – we’ll agree to disagree.
Then, I was wrong about Phil last year as well – that game counted.
champ809
Great points! Sorry for so easily dismissing Bautista. You obviously know your fantasy!!
I stopped playing fantasy baseball years ago, but I have never missed a playoffs in any NHL, MLB, NBA, or NFL league ever, and I’ve won more than 50% of the leagues. The only time I lost was because of bad luck.
Dont know if anyone remembers how I spoke of a friend who I pay to not draft Yankees because he gets severe freak injuries on his teams.
Like he drafted Mutombo with malaria, Chris Henry of the Bengals who died.
In baseball this year, he has Brett Anderson, Kendry Morales, and a few others. I forget which, so I’ll have to ask him.
If Gardner keeps his pace, which he might, he’s definitely worth a lights out reliever or cost controlled starter in a trade if he is the centerpiece of that package.
Like I said, I’d rather have Crawford plus lights out reliever or cost controlled starter than Gardner + $$.
The people who want Gardner + $$ want to spend that $$ on Cliff Lee in free agency and that’s not happening if Pettitte returns. There’s no reason to spend 20 million dollars to push Phil Hughes out of a playoff start next year.
Just because I want Crawford over Gardner doesn’t mean I’m down on Gardner or don’t think he’s a better bargain. I’m not. He is. The fact of the matter is the trade value. When you have Crawford you can trade Gardner to fill an area of need. When you have Gardner, you can’t trade Crawford since he’s a free agent. Signing Crawford and trading Gardner allows you to upgrade the position, and acquire an asset in another spot.
I don’t think its really “unfair…”- he made a pretty valid point. Chamberlain has pitched pretty well this year and his numbers portend a 2.75-3.25ish ERA rather than the ERA that he currently holds as a result of getting blasted in a couple terrible outings.
We’ve seen the old velocity from time to time- its not like he isn’t capable of ratcheting it up there. The onus is now on the organization to figure out how to get him to repeat his mechanics consistently so he can consistently throw 93-95 as a starter rather than 91-93 (which is where he was last year). It shouldn’t be too difficult given that the guy has sat at 99 during starts in the past.
Betsy,
You’ve always had a tendency to knock Joba for whatever reason. Maybe you do so subconsciously because of some media and fan driven rivalry between Joba and Phil.
But I’ve always defended both kids the same. I have no preference between the two. I want both of them to tear up the AL.
GF, maybe you should accuse LGY and Pat M as well of being biased against Joba since they have said critical things about him as well. My comments about Joba have nothing to do with any personal feelings I have against him; I can’t defend myself against your opinion and I’m not going to try.
Thanks to everyone who provided their insight into the troubles of Erica’s Avengers. (And my apologies to those who didn’t care. But at least it was baseball conversation)
And Patrick is right, his team is actually worst than mine. I beat him twice
Anyone else think that there is a new undetectable steroid going around? Pudge Rodriguez hitting .333, Scott Rolen with his highest SLG% since 2004, Troy Glaus, Vernon Wells, Alex Gonzalez, Jose Bautista (steroids must be available over the counter in Canada), Vlad Guerrero, David Ortiz, etc. Seems fishy.
Giuseppe Franco June 9th, 2010 at 1:24 pm
Betsy,
You’ve always had a tendency to knock Joba for whatever reason. Maybe you do so subconsciously because of some media and fan driven rivalry between Joba and Phil.
—
A second shooter on the grassy knoll.
I think Joba will return to the rotation.
Another reason why not to spend 20 million on Cliff Lee.
GF -
I agree – I am puzzled why there seems to be rivalry – as if to say if you like Hughes you can’t like Joba and vice versa. I want them both to do well because that would be the best scenario for the Yankees.
I wish it could just be isolated: Joba. Hughes. When talking about Joba, you’re talking about Joba. When talking about Hughes, you’re talking about Hughes. There doesn’t have to be reference to the other, which usually ends up being at the expense of one or the other, right now the “other” being Joba, but at one time that was reversed.
Nobody trades cost controlled everyday players for lights out relievers (since relief pitching varies greatly from year to year) and adds 100 million in payroll with a player like Crawford, who is similar to Gardner in many ways.
If Gardner shows he can play everyday, which he has so far, they will not go after Crawford.
He will most likely end up in Anaheim.
Lee? Whether folks want to believe it or not, they are going after Cliff Lee.
There is enough “chatter” among agents (Lee and AJ share the same agent) and teammate relationships (CC and Lee are tight) to know there is interest by both parties.
As in all this stuff, it comes down to $$$.
That said, if they feel Gardner is a guy they can count on everyday, they will go after Lee…..regardless of what Andy does.
That’s because Javy is one and done in pinstripes, regardless of how he pitches this year.
“If Gardner keeps his pace, which he might, he’s definitely worth a lights out reliever or cost controlled starter in a trade if he is the centerpiece of that package.”
There’s no such thing as a “lights out reliever” that isn’t already established as a closer. Relievers fluctuate from year-to-year, they are completely fungible. The only “lights out” setup reliever who has done so with any consistency over a relatively long period of time is Scot Shields. That’s it. Since 2000 I can’t think of a single other relief pitcher who has consistently been a dominant pitcher in a setup role.
You just never give up any assets for a relief pitcher. Any time Cashman has done it, it has failed miserably. Jay Witasick was supposed to be a shutdown bridge to Mariano- anyone remember how that one turned out? And his numbers as a setup guy were as good as any reliever in baseball.
I absolutely do understand where you’re coming from but I don’t agree with acquiring out of house relievers. These are guys that are developed from within, most often failed starters who catch lightning in a bottle for a short period of time and can make a big impact. I see a number of Yankee pitching prospects in the middle and high minors who I think may make an impact on the ML scene in very short order. One guy in particular who was just shifted to the bullpen in AA, Ryan Pope, has seen his stuff play up pretty well in the ‘pen and could be an option by the late summer.
AlbanyYankee June 9th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
Anyone else think that there is a new undetectable steroid going around? Pudge Rodriguez hitting .333, Scott Rolen with his highest SLG% since 2004, Troy Glaus, Vernon Wells, Alex Gonzalez, Jose Bautista (steroids must be available over the counter in Canada), Vlad Guerrero, David Ortiz, etc. Seems fishy.
**********
I was under the impression HGH was undetectible
Doreen, are you implying that because I prefer Phil that my criticisms of Joba are laced with bias? That’s exactly what GF was accusing me of. I guess everyone who criticizes Joba is biased, right?
Derek Jeter SS
Nick Swisher RF
Mark Teixeira 1B
Alex Rodriguez 3B
Robinson Cano 2B
Curtis Granderson CF
Marcus DH
Francisco Cervelli C
Brett Gardner LF
Then the Yankees won’t offer Javy arbitration and they won’t get the picks for him……plenty of Yankee fans will be pretty annoyed.
Stuckey – “My theory is they’re going to try to hide him on the roster until he can get some time with Dave Eiland and try to rediscover what they found together last year.”
What they “found” were the pictures!
Cashman/Girardi need to admit their mistake, fix it, and move on. Oakland did…
I also think Joba’s days in the rotation, at least as a Yankee, are over.
There hasn’t been any talk of moving Joba back into the rotation after this year.
I also don’t think Cliff Lee will get 20 million from anybody next year.
You have to look at the marketplace and ask yourself where is he getting that kind of AAV?
The Mets? Nope. They have money problems of their own.
Anaheim? Nope.
The Dodgers? Nope.
Boston? Nope.
The Tigers? Nope. Not after giving Verlander 16 million per season.
20 million AAV isn’t going to be his number.
Its going to be closer to 17-18 and the Yankees can fit that into what they are doing next year…..if they so choose.
SJ,
You can’t say with any degree of certainty that Joba Chamberlain will not be in the 2011 rotation. With Lee, Joba stays in the pen unless you’re banking on Pettitte not returning which he will.
Betsy,
I only made the comment because you didn’t give Joba the benefit of the doubt in his bad outings this season but you certainly did with Hughes last year during his short stint in the rotation.
Hughes was blasted against the O’s, but his other 6-7 starts last year were good to very good. The fans and media both used his rotation ERA against him when arguing whether he should stay in the rotation or go to the pen.
You staunchly defended Hughes’ time in the rotation and claimed (rightly so) his high ERA was skewed because of one start. It was a valid point that most everybody overlooked. I defended him as well.
But you don’t seem to give Joba that same benefit of the doubt and have issues with others who do.
I don’t think I’m being unfair. It’s just an observation.
We all don’t have to like everyone on the team. Hell, I don’t even have a favorite player. It’s been that way since Mattingly retired.
Erica,
My team is pretty bad too. You’ll get a chance to beat me soon.
Yankee fans, at least a portion of them, are annoyed everyday.
Cashman doesn’t care about that.
He will do what he believes is best for the franchise.
I doubt many Yankee fans will be “annoyed” if next years rotation is, CC, AJ, Lee, Pettitte and Hughes.
If they are, they will get over it.
If they can’t, they can become Mets fans.
“Why should we take away his bad performances, Stuckey? They count.”
Quite right. Its depends on what you’re tyring to get out of the conversation about Chamberlain – critique the job he’s done up to this point, or speculate they job he’s going to do, and his prospects even further out than that.
He’s been awful 3 times. He’s been somewhere in the spectrum of awesome, to very good, to good, to okay in roughly 88% of this appearances.
That’s not conclusive, but it is informative. It helps identify what Chamberlain’s problems areas have been, which is roughly 1 of every 10 appearances, he’s going to have nothing.
It also helps illustrate that moving forward, the tools ARE there. The velocity is present, the command exists, he gets swings and misses and can put away hitters.
You’re not dealing with a situation where the stuff is just non-existent. It’s there … MOST of the time, figuring our why it isn’t there 10% of the time and what to do about that is the goal.
As I say Betsy, it depends on what your goals are. If it’s simply to pass judgment on his performance, his ERA is wholly earned and he’s responsible for some blown games.
If what you’re looking for is some indication the tools are there for him to get better results the rest of 2010 and beyond, I think it’s entirely reasonable and appropriate to go under the hood and break down how he’s performed thus far this year.
Anaheim is an option. they need more pitching.
Fran (the original) June 9th, 2010 at 1:35 pm
Erica,
My team is pretty bad too. You?ll get a chance to beat me soon.
*************
I think you beat me in our first go around
Lee is getting way more than Lackey’s 17 mil. If Lee wins another CY this season, 20 mil minimum.
“I also think Joba’s days in the rotation, at least as a Yankee, are over.”
Then they should do what’s right and trade him. An arm like that, in the role he is now, is virtually worthless. If you are right, then I hope Joba pitches well over the rest of the season and is traded for something of more value in the offseason. I hope thats the case for both his and the Yankees sake if he’s going to wither away in this role here.
Not sure how a league average ERA as a 23 year old, when the guy showed he could be among the most dominant starters in baseball the year before, causes a guy to be permanently demoted to a role that should and is mostly reserved for flash in the pan castoffs.
I’ll never understand it.
Jeter SS
Swisher RF
Tex 1B
A-Rod 3B
Cano 2B
Posada DH
Granderson CF
Cervelli C
GGBG LF
It feels so nice to have a “basic” line up again. Thanks Doreen!!
bret,
I can be as certain as the Yankees, from Cashman, to Girardi down to Eiland have said since the Spring.
There are no plans to move him back into the rotation.
Can they change their minds? Anything is possible.
However, they haven’t shown any indication that’s on the docket……nor have they told him that’s a possibility, down the line.
It looks like, at least at this time, he’s in the bullpen to stay as long as he remains a Yankee.
I’ll put it another way…..if they decide they want Cliff Lee, they are going all out to get him and Joba’s starting options aren’t going to stand in the way.
SS Derek Jeter
RF Nick Swisher
1B Mark Teixeira
3B Alex Rodriguez
2B Robinson Cano
DH Jorge Posada
CF Curtis Granderson
C Francisco Cervelli
LF Brett Gardner
Thanks Doreen!
Joba’s role is not worthless. He’s pitching the 8th inning. Besides Mo he’s the mort important guy in the bullpen. He’s also the back-up closer. Heck he’s one the most important players on the team.
Can I ask those of you that don’t think we’ll make a run at Cliff Lee why you believe that? And I don’t mean the “where does he fit?” question because I find that absurd. You can NEVER have enough good starting pitchers on a team. Period. I don’t care if Andy does come back, I don’t see how that should affect the choice they make on Lee.
GF, ok – I admit that after I made that comment, I realized how inconsistent I sounded given what I said about Phil last year. I honestly forgot, until I replied to Stuckey, that I had posted the opposite about Phil last year. My comment about Joba and his 3 bad performances came out of frustration at those losses- I promise they had nothing to do with any personal feelings I have about him. I don’t dislike Joba at all, but I admit he’s not my favorite for several reasons. That’s ok, though – we don’t have to like all players equally. Generally speaking, I would say Joba has been fine in his role – I wouldn’t say he’s been great and you’re right, he’s not been bad. I really don’t trust anyone in the pen other than Mo, though.
“There hasn’t been any talk of moving Joba back into the rotation after this year.”
I’m not sure why there would be?
The rotation is 5-deep and very healthy thus far. We’re still not half-way through THIS season where they were more questions about this stuff (velocity, command) than a specific application of it and still are.
Currently the Yankees rotation is set and their goal is a 28th World Championship.
I can’t imagine any circumstance in which Chamberlain’s role in 2011 and beyond would be a topic of conversation.
Bret, the Yankees won’t give Joba another try in the rotation unless they are convinced he has what it takes to be a starter – Lee or no Lee.
“Joba’s role is not worthless. He’s pitching the 8th inning. ”
Yeah. The perennially most overrated role in major league baseball.
Betsy -
I’m not talking about you. I’m talking about how almost every conversation about either of those pitchers ends up or incorporates some comparison of one to the other and at one time or another one of them has been on the negative end of the comparison, and I don’t know why that is necessary. I’m saying Joba talk should be about Joba, and Phil talk should be about Phil, at least most of the time.
I have criticized and/or questioned Joba here. I have no idea what’s happened to the 2007 Joba, but I don’t believe in the armchair psychology that goes on surrounding that kid. All I know is he has talent and it would be a shame if he can’t re-harness it and be if not what we expected him to be, then closer to it than he’s been lately. And even with the questions and the criticism, I am still rooting for him and not giving up on him.
This is about me and my feelings about the situation.
I don’t think that you don’t like Joba because you have a preference for Phil. I don’t think that your preference for Phil has anything to do with Joba. I think you don’t like Joba because of Joba and how you see his situation. But I also think you seem to be closed off about any possibility that Joba might improve, which has nothing to do with Phil.
My gripe, and not with you in particular, but with the whole situation in general, is that it isn’t always necessary, when discussing one or the other, to bring the other into the conversation.
I made the comment about being MY being open-minded because either in the last thread or earlier in this one, stuckey talked about bring up this subject and mentioned that it might be touchy. I wanted to tell him he may have some people receptive to the subject here.
SJ44 June 9th, 2010 at 1:39 pm
I’ll put it another way…..if they decide they want Cliff Lee, they are going all out to get him and Joba’s starting options aren’t going to stand in the way.
****************
If the plan is to develop a staff of 3 big contracts and 2 cost controlled guys, you’re looking at Hughes and Joba at the bottom of next year’s rotation. It depends on their long term plan for the budget with the rotation and the progress of the young pitcher’s they’re developing in Hughes in Joba. If they see both panning out in the rotation, there’s no reason to spend near 20 mil per season on Lee.
Somebody has to pay Cliff Lee the 20 million and the usual candidates aren’t out there.
That’s the stumbling block Lee has to get 20 million per season.
Boston is locked up pitching-wise and isn’t in the bidding. That hurts Lee.
Anaheim needs Carl Crawford more than Cliff Lee and may decide to do whatever it takes to get Crawford.
The usual big market teams just don’t have the cash to give Lee 20 million AAV.
Even a sleeper team like the Cardinals can’t do it because they have to put the money toward Pujols.
Look around the game and you will see there aren’t a lot of landing spots for him at a certain price point.
I think the Yankees know that which is why they won’t trade for him in season.
They will just wait it out and play the market in the off-season.
SJ, they were counting on getting draft picks for Javy – I can’t say I blame them for being disappointed. Having more draft picks is a good thing.
G-C June 9th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
“Joba’s role is not worthless. He’s pitching the 8th inning. ”
Yeah. The perennially most overrated role in major league baseball.
_______________________________________________________________
If the 8th inning was overrated then Mitre or Gaudin would come in with a 3-2 lead in the 8th of any game. That’s not very likely to happen.
“Lee is getting way more than Lackey’s 17 mil. If Lee wins another CY this season, 20 mil minimum.”
That’s not how markets work. What Lackey got from the Red Sox is irrelevant to the question of what Lee will get.
It’s not irrelevant to what Lee might WANT and will ASK for, but that’s not the same thing.
The Nationals should go hard after Lee.
They have the money.
I can’t imagine any circumstance in which Chamberlain’s role in 2011 and beyond would be a topic of conversation.
*******************
What? Cashman takes it year by year with assets like Chamberlain?
Yeah right. Cashman has admitted to having internal iscussions about player projections and personnel possibilities 3 years in advance.
So, imagine that circumstance.
bret,
When they told Joba he was going into the bullpen, unlike Hughes last year, they never said, “pitch well and you can get back into the rotation next year”. They told him his role was going to be in the bullpen.
They also have said publicly they have no plans to put him back in the rotation again.
Mainly because they don’t believe he can sustain his mechanics and stuff over 100 pitches.
Whether folks agree or disagree with that, its the current Yankee position.
Could they change their minds? Sure.
Thus far however, Joba hasn’t shown ANY ability to be more than he is right now.
Its not like he is even dominating out of the pen like Hughes did last year.
Personally, I think they are grooming him to take over for Mo or develop him enough to trade him.
I don’t think they see him in the same light as many fans do with regard to going back into the rotation and being a front end starting pitcher.
Obviously, that’s subject to change but, that’s their current position.
Lee isnt going to win a Cy Young this year.
Thus far however, Joba hasn’t shown ANY ability to be more than he is right now.
*********
That’s untrue.
SJ44 -
If I recall correctly, in the spring Cashman et al were asked about Joba and the response was they had no intention of moving him out of the bullpen and not the rotation this season. I believe they were specific about that. I also believe that Cashman still referred to Joba as a starter who is being used as a relief pitcher. That they didn’t want to bounce him back and forth but define a role for him for this season and stick to it.
I don’t believe he went beyond this season in his remarks; it hasn’t been a topic of conversation with him since, at least in public.
Truth is, I want Joba to be successful wherever that means. It really doesn’t matter to me if he ends up the heir to Mariano or a starter, though I admit it would be nice if he got back to form and he was a successful starter. I have no money on that particular race.
Can I ask those of you that don’t think we’ll make a run at Cliff Lee why you believe that? And I don’t mean the “where does he fit?” question because I find that absurd. You can NEVER have enough good starting pitchers on a team. Period. I don’t care if Andy does come back, I don’t see how that should affect the choice they make on Lee.
__
Because the team has shown they are going to start being more budget conscious, and they need to resign rivera and jeter first. pettitte is getting better again, so he may get more money also.
The Nationals are definitely a candidate for Lee. They are developing a good team, they have money, and that’s a great pitchers ballpark.
I could see them bidding for him. I don’t see them commiting 20 million per year for his services.
Doreen – GTLU Stuff & Photos June 9th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
SJ44 -
If I recall correctly, in the spring Cashman et al were asked about Joba and the response was they had no intention of moving him out of the bullpen and not the rotation this season. I believe they were specific about that. I also believe that Cashman still referred to Joba as a starter who is being used as a relief pitcher.
*******************
That’s exactly right.
I believe as well that HGH is undetectable. And there will always be players that are willing to sacrifice their own long-term health and the risks of being found out to gain the competitive advantage.
Im not, however, saying whether I agree or disagree with doing so.
GTLU
SS Jeter
RF Swish
1B Tex
3B Alex
2B Robbie
DH PO
CF Grandy
C Frankie
LF Gardy
bret,
He has melted down on 3-4 occasions so far this year. His stuff is completely different after 20-22 pitches.
That’s not “starter stuff”.
When he’s been good, he’s throwing 12-18 pitches in one inning of work and its crisp. After that, his stuff, and his focus, lags.
That’s not a “starter”. That’s a relief pitcher.
“Cashman/Girardi need to admit their mistake, fix it, and move on. Oakland did…”
This is where you and some many fans go off the tracks. ALL baseball teams audition relievers during the year, most teams a LOT of them.
From their minor league systems, veterans off waivers. It’s a natural part of the 162 game season.
But like so many did last night, you need to frame it as some referendum on the judgment of Cashman & Girardi.
There aren’t enough good relievers to go around. This point should be obvious to anyone with even a passing familiarity with the game.
Erica,
We haven’t faced each other yet.Not sure when our first meeting is.
Doreen, understood.
I don’t dislike Joba, but I don’t particularly like him – I’m relatively neutral on him.
The comparisons are always going to be there, the way they are with Phil/Buchholz and Phil/Pelfrey. Are they unfair? I don’t know. Conversations about Joba sometimes turn to Phil because he’s been through the ringer a bit and come out the other side; I’m sure Yankee fans want that to happen with Joba. Then again, Yankee fans turned on Phil when he had the nerve to struggle after returning from his injuries in 2007 and they’ve never really come back until now; they seem so surprised that he’s showing such talent now, as if he never had it before. Maybe something similar is happening to Joba, but the perception is that he’s stubborn, out of shape and immature. I don’t know how much, if any of that, is true ,but he is wildly inconsistent. Assuming the tendonitis was just that and didn’t have any lasting damage, then it’s on Joba to better himself and prove himself again. Phil had to do it, lots of pitchers have to; there’s only so much Eiland and the Yankees can do for him.
Dallas Braden -
The “Frankie” in your lineup threw me for a second! Frankie? Who’s “Frankie?”
Mets are going to be hot after Lee too
Really don’t want them to get him, that’s why I want him.
Free agent decisions are never decided as part of 1 year plans or roster construction looking out towards 1 year.
Cashman makes nearly every decision and operates at the very least on a 3 year plan.
Great, not good or very good, but great starting pitching is few and far between on the FA market nowadays.
When you are the Yankees and these guys pop up on the market you do what you can to bring that guy in.
Passing on Cliff Lee is not just about Cliff Lee. It is about how much better he is than anyone else that is going to hit the market in the foreseeable future. It is about the money you are going to have to spend on a lesser pitcher and that money is always at a premium on the FA market.
You have no front end talent close to major league ready right now in the minors. The Yankees are not going to put a Nova type in the rotation. Young guns only crack their rotation if they have a frontline ceiling.
You have Andy whose status is up in the air every year and Burnett who has 3 more years on his contract after this year which is little enough to start thinking about planning ahead when a talent like Lee hits the market coupled with the other circumstances.
If the Yankees are happy with Lee’s long term health and believe his stuff will sustain as he ages a bit, it is hard to imagine them passing on him.
Factor in that he is a lefty, pitches a ton of innings, is a good guy, friends with a bunch on guys on the team, and excels on the big stage and he has everything the Yankees look for in a free agent and then some.
The trials and tribulations of Joba Chamberlain or things like how to set up their playoff rotation are not going to stop them from going after a talent and a person like Lee.
“When he’s been good, he’s throwing 12-18 pitches in one inning of work and its crisp. After that, his stuff, and his focus, lags.”
Disagree completely with this. Especially last year his stuff always improved as the game went on. There wasn’t a single time in which I noticed his stuff was crisper earlier in the game and started lagging later on. Every single time it was virtually the polar opposite.
Fran (the original) June 9th, 2010 at 1:54 pm
Erica,
We haven?t faced each other yet.Not sure when our first meeting is.
***********
You are right. My mistake
We meet in Week 13 and again in Week 15.
All I know is I never want to face Gayle again…..
Chad Gaudin is the 12th man on the staff. He’s a completely fungible piece of the puzzle.
If they can’t get anything out of him, they will get rid of him.
In the grand scheme of things, he isn’t among the issues on the team.
Stuckey, I understand and agree…..but as I just said, the Yankees can only do so much. I have no clue what’s going on in his head or what’s happened since mid-2008, but it’s not an easy “fix”.
CR9 June 9th, 2010 at 1:51 pm
I believe as well that HGH is undetectable. And there will always be players that are willing to sacrifice their own long-term health and the risks of being found out to gain the competitive advantage.
—
A second shooter on the grassy knoll.
I also have to say, if Joba ends up a successful relief pitcher, with a consistent career, I would not consider it a failure. I would say circumstances, for whatever reason, changed. I said it before, it could be that Joba’s fate could have been written in the stars – arrive on the scene, take the world by storm – and then fade. I hope not. But it happens sometimes. I hope not, though.
“Its not like he is even dominating out of the pen like Hughes did last year.”
Save for 3 bad outings within 10 days of one another, he actually is.
And one question – for a 24 year old, who didn’t even spend a full season in the minors, he’s career line as a starter is actually very respectable.
So how does one reach the conclusion he doesn’t have starter stuff when in fact has shown he does?
I always get confused about this one…
Stuckey;
Not a referendum on Cashman/Girardi, not off the tracks, extremely familiar with the game. However, Gaudin can’t pitch at the MLB level anymore. This point should be obvious to anyone with even a passing familiarity with the game.
Lighten up, its a great day in the free world.
LGY, you are making a very persuasive case for Lee – and I am iffy on him, lol
Lee is not a good guy – he refused to talk to the Seattle writer who wrote the Griffey story. He won’t be able to get away with that in NY, who has hacks who are 10x worse.
Word out of Philly is that he didn’t want to pitch on short rest either, which is why Manual didn’t use him.
He is a good pitcher, but sounds like a bit of a diva. Not that it matters, but should be taken into account.
Stuckey, you really think Joba, outside of 3 outings, has been absolutely dominant like Phil last year?
I also agree that going after Cliff Lee has nothing to do with who would be in the starting rotation in the playoffs or Joba or Andy or Javy. I think if they think they can get Cliff Lee they will probably do it.
He couldn’t last past 4 innings with any consistency for the second half of the year after his first three starts.
The Yankees took on more money, and traded talent, for Vazquez in the off-season because they had no confidence in Joba as a starter.
If his stuff was playing up later in performances, they wouldn’t have made the Vazquez trade.
They don’t see him as fans do. They see him in the bullpen and not in the rotation.
LGY is correct.
The Yankees don’t make FA decisions one year out. One of the reasons why Cashman passed on Santana was because he knew CC was going to be a FA and he knew he had a great shot at getting him.
So, he was unwilling to pay “twice” for a player.
In Lee’s case, if his health checks out, he’s the perfect guy for the Yankees.
A LH pitching in Yankee Stadium.
Comfortable on the big stage.
Has friends on the team. Knows the AL, and it only costs money.
Add to it the fact that there isn’t another pitcher the calibur of Lee coming up for free agency in the next couple of years and its pretty clear the Yankees are going to be aggressive in trying to get him.
GTLU
Jeter SS
Swish RF
Tex 1B
Alex 3B
Cano 2B
Posada DH
Granderson CF
Thames LF
Cervelli C
You can’t remove the 3 bad outings, especially for relief pitchers.
The fact that he has had 3 huge blowups already in a month shows it can happen again, in a big spot. What if we face Boston with the season on the line in late September, do you really trust him to get 3 outs, knowing he has had blown ups in the past?
He simply is never going to be trustworthy unless he has a long stretch of good pitching. It is always going to be in the back of the mind that Joba is capable of completely losing it.
As a reliever, he is always pitching in high leverage situations.
Betsy
In all fairness, Phil was dominant to begin with, then after a poor outing against the Angels at home, he struggled late in the year, iirc, and was unreliable in the playoffs. I could be wrong, but I am pretty certain he struggled in the playoffs.
Francis -
It depends on your point of view, I think.
A person could look at his refusal to talk to the Seattle reporter as being a good/supportive teammate.
He may not have wanted to pitch on short rest because doesn’t he have a history of some arm trouble? Before he started being really good? He might just be protective of his career, he may know, historically, that when he pitches on short rest he is not effective or won’t be effective next start.
Not everyone is CC!
It’s way too early to say the Yanks will not try Joba in the rotation again. Of course they aren’t going to tell him that he might be in the rotation next year – they want him to concentrate on pitching well out of the bullpen this year.
There has been zero evidence that his stuff starts to diminish after 20 pitches, we’ve seen him sustain amazing stuff into the 7th inning of games. He’s proven that he can dominate as a starting pitcher when his mechanics and health are intact. It is very likely that Joba can be a good or even great starting pitcher in the big leagues.
Things change. In 2008 people were talking about Joba like he was an ace already. Now he’s little more than an inconsistent 8th inning guy. One month ago most on here were banking on Carl Crawford coming to the Yankees. SJ44 – all the evidence you have that the Yanks will go hard after Lee could have been copied from old posts of yours talking about Carl Crawford.
I’m not saying Joba will be in the rotation or that the Yanks won’t go after Lee. I’m just saying it’s too early and things change. Who knows, maybe Joba starts pitching more consistently and shows how dominant he can be? Cashman is an adaptable fellow, he changes plans all the time.
And lets be honest, there will be a ton of interest in Cliff Lee this offseason. I could see the Mets, Dodgers, Tigers, Nationals, Blue Jays, Rockies and any number of other teams going after him.
The trials and tribulations of Joba Chamberlain or things like how to set up their playoff rotation are not going to stop them from going after a talent and a person like Lee.
************
That’s where we disagree. I think the Yankees are very much open to developing Joba as a starter. Trials and tribulations makes it sound like they’re feeling tortured by the prospect of Joba returning to the rotation as a cost-controlled starter. I don’t think that’s the case.
The prospect of having 2 cost controlled starters in Hughes and Joba DOES factor into their budgeting decisions and big money investments in free agent pitchers.
If there’s one thing more rare than a Cliff Lee type pitcher reaching free agency, it’s a cost controlled starter like Hughes dominating for the next 3-4 years for a fraction of the cost which impacts all investments and personnel decisions.
Also, the playoff rotation DOES matter. CC’s contract is a testament to that. You pay big dollars to the guy who can give you 2 playoff starts in one series. You pay big #2 starter dollars to AJ Burnett so he wins you game 2. You pay big dollars to have Andy in Game 3. You have Hughes in game 4.
1)You’re already spending big money for frontline talent
2)Your weakest link is Hughes?
3)Why throw 20 million at that problem when it’s not a problem?
its time to get off vazquez, he’s been lights out last 3 starts and when he gets it going he will be the second best pitcher on our team.
A-Town -
I think stuckey’s point (and he WILL correct me if I’m wrong, I’m sure) was it would be worth trying to find out why he was so poor in those 3 outings and try to address that and further limit the chance that he might do poorly to that extent.
No relief pitcher is perfect; even Mo has his days.
its time to get off vazquez, he’s been lights out last 3 starts and when he gets it going he will be the second best pitcher on our team.
—
Third best behind Hughes
Brett made a good point in the last thread.
If we sign Lee next year, who goes to the bullpen in the 2011 playoffs?
Burnett? I don’t think he would appreciate that very much.
patrick – not a chance.
SJ44
Do you see any truth to that nypost article about Nunez,and a catcher for Lee. If we did that deal we could at least cut off the bidding for his services.Do you see the Yankees trading for Lee before the deadline or just waiting till after the season?
Why not a chance? Hughes has been amazing thus far.
Again, Andy is your wild card here. If he retires, they really need a lefty to take his place. There would be room for Lee and Joba if they also don’t keep Javy.
“Do you see any truth to that nypost article about Nunez,and a catcher for Lee. If we did that deal we could at least cut off the bidding for his services.Do you see the Yankees trading for Lee before the deadline or just waiting till after the season?”
Where does Lee fit into this rotation right now?
The Dodgers franchise is in complete peril because of the McCourt’s divorce.
The wouldn’t can’t even afford adding a bench bat. They aren’t bidding for Cliff Lee.
The Blue Jays are going completely homegrown for their pitching talent. They aren’t bidding for Lee and I don’t think Lee has any desire to play in Toronto.
The Rockies? They got burned with Mike Hampton. I don’t see them going for big numbers over Lee.
The Mets? Not with their money problems.
The Tigers? Perhaps but, it seems they put a cap on their pitching number at 16 million AAV, Verlander’s number. I don’t see them increasing that for Lee.
When you look at the teams, their current financial situations, and their current pitching roster, there aren’t a lot of suitors at his number. Not like it was in previous years.
Patrick.
Joba’s stuff hasn’t played up late in games in over 2 years. Unless that changes, the chances he’s a starting pitcher again with the Yankees lessens each day.
He just isn’t consistent from outing to outing. That’s why he’s in the bullpen.
Jetes SS
Swish RF
Tex 1B
Alex 3B
Cano 2B
Posada DH
Granderson CF
Cervelli C
GGBG LF
Mark,
That’s my point.
Hughes would not make a playoff start in a rotation with Lee and Pettitte.
So basically, the Yankees are paying near 20 mil to bump Phil to number 5.
Phil Hughes has obviously proved he’s not a fifth starter and there is no reason to commit near 100 million dollars to bump him down. Cripes, he looks near like an ace right now.
patrick – he has been, and “expecting” that to continue all year is foolhardy.
do i want him to? sure. will he? i would say no probably not. hughes also doesn’t have to be “this good” to continue to have a good season. vazquez is going to go lights out again some time soon, it’s already started.
sacfly,
No. Only way that becomes a possibility is if one of the starters suffered a season ending injury.
There is no reason for the Yankees to trade for Lee and pay twice for him.
Especially using valuable trade chips such as Nunez and one of the catchers.
I will say this…..
If the Yankees were to shop one of their catchers, I’d shop Cervelli before I’d shop Romine or Montero. I think the upside of both Romine and Montero far exceeds Cervelli’s.
sj44 – that’s twice you have referenced the mets “money problems”. what on earth are you talking about? if you say the word madoff, i’m completely devauling your opinion going forward.
As long as Joba has these inconsistent mechanics, this is what he will be.
Some days he is coming out throwing 96-97 with the tight slider.
Others, he is throwing 92 with a flat slider that he can’t locate.
de val u ing. :/
Mark June 9th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
Brett made a good point in the last thread.
If we sign Lee next year, who goes to the bullpen in the 2011 playoffs?
Burnett? I don’t think he would appreciate that very much.
—————————
If Mike Mussina, a HOFer, could go to the pen for the playoffs, so can an inconsistent AJ Burnett.
We’re in the business of winning games, not stroking egos.
SJ,
Do you honestly believe Seattle would accept a proposal of Cervelli + Nunez for Cliff Lee as a 1 year rental?
It that’s the case, I’d take him for 1/2 year.
Bret,
You are getting too caught up into rotation numbers, which really don’t mean anything.
Just because the Yankees need a “5th” starter, does not mean they are going to to put a 5th starter talent in that spot.
That is not how the Yankees operate, especially with how thin the FA market is getting year after year.
And why would Hughes get bumped? Because he is the youngest?
If he is one of the 4 best starters on the team he will get the nod in the playoffs.
The Mets have two different money problems. Madoff is one but, not the biggest one.
The biggest one are a plethora of bad contracts that are unmovable.
That makes it tough for them.
If they can move Beltran and Perez, that frees up money.
Also, do the Mets want to play another starter close to Santana money and commit that money over the course of 4-5 years? They are already seeing decline in Santana’s stuff. Although, his great pitching smarts keeps him as one of the best pitchers in the game.
That said, he has already had two surgeries as a Met.
Plus, Lee has to want to play for the Mets. If he has a choice of playing for the Yankees or Mets, I predict he would choose the Yankees.
Better team, friends on the club, other, big names to take the heat off him. All three of those reasons trump the Mets.
The interesting part of the Cliff Lee Market is, when you take all of the factors into consideration, there aren’t as many suitors as one would think.
I believe the Yankees know this which is why they won’t think about paying twice for the player.
“Stuckey, you really think Joba, outside of 3 outings, has been absolutely dominant like Phil last year?”
Not really what I think Betsy, it’s pretty easily quantified.
Though as I will say no, not as good precisely, but in the neighborhood, yes.
“Because the team has shown they are going to start being more budget conscious, and they need to resign rivera and jeter first. pettitte is getting better again, so he may get more money also.”
ac1 – I hear what youre saying but to me all of this ‘budget conscious’ stuff is bung. Don’t get me wrong, they’ve been more fiscally responsible, but in Yankee Universe all that consists of is not signing Johnny Damon and forcing Andy to take a pay cut.
Yes, Andy may get more money. He may well deserve it. Jeter and Mo obviously need to be resigned as well, but Andy’s deal will be short term and so will Mo’s in all likelihood.
I just don’t see us passing on Cliff Lee because of money. If there are other reasons, fine. But I’d find it hard to believe money will be the deciding factor. We’re not gonna hand out deals like the one to Giambi anymore (I hope) but we’re still the Yankees.
All must be going quite well in Yankee land if the topic is Cliff Lee for 2011.
I believe the Yankees will spend upwards of 100mil for Lee this off season if he is a FA. If the Yankees want him, he will be a Yankee.
Joba has had some real bad outings this year but he has been real good more times than not. I believe we will see Joba improve as the year goes on.
No, he is not going to be a starter in 2010 but don’t count him out in 2011. If Andy retires, I think the Yankees do let Joba compete for the #5 slot.
Joba could be a starter or a closer on probably 25 of the 30 teams now; he is a good pitcher.
“If Mike Mussina, a HOFer, could go to the pen for the playoffs, so can an inconsistent AJ Burnett.
We’re in the business of winning games, not stroking egos.”
Mike Mussina was God-awful that season. And he still probably should have started game four against Cleveland. Wang wasn’t ready to pitch that game- it was talked about in detail in Torre’s book. Another one of his bigtime mistakes.
Until Cliff Lee proves to me otherwise he’s not a substantially better pitcher than Burnett is. Lee has emerged into one of the most overrated players in the game. He has a grand total of 2.5 good seasons in the big leagues and is by all accounts a major (softtossing) malcontent.
Burnett over his last 5 years has evolved into one of the most consistent and durable pitchers in the American League. The nonsense about him being “inconsistent” is just that- unbased babble talk.
LGY,
The Yankees didn’t pay CC north of 20 and AJ 16 and Pettitte 15 to pitch out of the bullpen. Hughes would not get the ball in the playoffs in a rotation with Lee and Pettitte. Just like Hughes won’t get the ball in the playoffs this year with Vazquez, even if he outpitches Vazquez. Vazquez is the proven vet and he makes 11.5 mil. Maybe Hughes is first to relieve him but he’s not starting that game.
“However, Gaudin can’t pitch at the MLB level anymore. This point should be obvious to anyone with even a passing familiarity with the game.”
He’s always been a fringy pitcher either way, so no, 25 innings do not represent the definitive end of a baseball career.
You don’t even need to know the game to know that, just a brain stem.
The Cardinals aren’t a sleeper team. The only reason they bid against them self for Holliday is Because Boras had them convinced that a mystery team any moment, Cashman, would get him!
They are about to lock their franchise into some major debt, Pujols and Carpenter will need to be negotiated.
bret,
No. I’m saying that if the Yankees ever decided to shop a catcher along with Nunez to bring back any player, I’d shop Cervelli first before I shop Romine or Montero.
I’d rather sell high on Cervelli than look either Romine or Montero because I believe both of those guys will be better long term than Cervelli.
No one really knows what the Yankees “budget” is.
Because they held it to about 200 million this year, does not mean they are at their limits for spending.
From what I have seen from Hal does not tell me he has some sort of strict budget.
I see a guy who got tired of paying out bad contracts for declining and disgruntled baseball players.
Hal pays for quality. Player and person.
Chad Gaudin is the 12th man on the staff. He’s a completely fungible piece of the puzzle.
If they can’t get anything out of him, they will get rid of him
___
like struggling to finish that game last night, and forcing Mo to warm up?
Brett,
No guarantee that Andy pitches this well next year. Unfortunately, the wheels are going to fall off him at some point.
Also, the learning curve for young pitchers can be funny. It’s not always an upward trend. Whose to say Hughes doesn’t slip a little next year? Look at Pelfrey and Buchholz. Or guys like Cain, Shields, Weaver, etc. after their first years starting. The expectations for Hughes will be through the roof, but history shows that sometimes you take a step back, then take 3 steps forward.
Burnett has always been an inconsistent pitcher. He is far from a lock in the playoff rotation the way a Sabathia is.
You are assuming best case scenario. If that happens, great. We’ll deal with it when he gets there.
Hitman – I’d bet my left anything that Hughes starts in the playoffs over Javy if he keeps the pace he has for this season and I’d go a step further and say if Girardi started Javy over Hughes just because of what he’s getting paid he should be fired.
The only way I see the Yankees trading for Cliff Lee is if they cook up a patented boy genius Theo 3 team trade where we trade Javy for the prospects it will take to get Lee.
For instance, you trade Javy to the Mets for Fernando Martinez and something then trade those players to Seattle for Lee.
I don’t see the Yankees trading one of the young catchers for a pitcher they can sign in the off season.
If they trade one of the young catchers, it’s for a young star who is not about to become a free agent.
I think the Mets will sign Vazquez in the off-season.
He will cost less than Lee, he wants to stay in the NE corridor, and Omar loves him.
He would fit into their budget and what they are trying to do more than Lee, IMO.
“Just like Hughes won’t get the ball in the playoffs this year with Vazquez, even if he outpitches Vazquez. Vazquez is the proven vet and he makes 11.5 mil. Maybe Hughes is first to relieve him but he’s not starting that game.”
Thats just not true. Javy doesn’t have a postseason pedigree and Hughes has been the Yankees best pitcher this year.
Hughes will start a playoff game this year, no doubt in my mind. Heck he might even win a Cy Young award this year. People need to stop qualifying his performance because of his age. He’s doing almost exactly what Lincecum did in his own breakout season.
You think if Hughes finishes the year 18-6 with a 3.20 ERA and 200 strikeouts in 200 innings that he’s going to move to the pen for the playoffs just because Vazquez is older? I don’t think so.
If the playoffs started tomorrow Hughes would have to be your guy in a game one.
That’s a ridiculous claim about Gaudin. I know he’s nothing special, but he has had some periods of reasonable success in the big leagues. I believe he was rather effective with us last year. So basically, maybe he gets the chance to work with Eiland again, maybe he can be reasonable effective again.
Bret,
If you think Javier Vazquez is starting over Phil Hughes in the playoffs, that is a whole different conversation.
GC,
AJ Burnett has never even had a season remotely close to Lee’s 2008-2010. He won a CY Young in the AL. He had an unbelieveable postseason for a big market team. He is on pace to start his 2nd All-Star game in the last 3 years.
He was a late bloomer. Can’t penalize him for that. There are plenty of them in baseball. AJ Burnett can’t hold a candle to him since 2008. Stop looking at pure stuff. Lee has been a significantly better pitcher and it isin’t even close.
Mo had to warm up last night ???
SJ44,
I could literally come up with a reason why no teams in MLB would sign Cliff Lee just like you’ve done for 5 of them. I could also come up with great justifications why 20 different teams would bid on Cliff Lee.
Dodgers – need pitching and despite the divorce still have money, also the divorce could be final in 6 months
Mets – desperately need pitching and have 20 mill coming off the payroll next year
Rockies – The Hampton deal was 10 years ago, pretty sure they’re over it by now. Also could use a great pitcher next to Ubaldo. They also have a lot of flexibility in the payroll, only $50 million on the books for next year
Blue Jays – proving right now that they can compete, Lee is the only really high end talent available in FA next year and could make a huge difference for them
Tigers – Despite being in Detroit they clearly have a ton of money to spend and could easily afford Lee
“Burnett has always been an inconsistent pitcher. He is far from a lock in the playoff rotation the way a Sabathia is.”
Really? Never understood this argument.
ERAs since 05…
2005: 3.44
2006: 3.98
2007: 3.75
2008: 4.07
2009: 4.04
2010 to date: 3.72
What is inconsistent about that? Every pitcher has “bad games” like Burnett does. For some reason Burnett’s bad games are magnified and when it follows one of his brilliant games it gets him labeled as an inconsistent pitcher. Sabathia has terrible games too and he doesn’t get labeled as such.
What makes Burnett inconsistent?
“With every game Brett Gardner makes it less likely that the Yankees go after Crawford”
————————————————————
fine by me.
I like Carl Crawford. However, players from the NYY system who are productive, cost-controlled, and a spark plug to the offense take presedence and don’t warrant being shipped out. Nor does Gardner warrant being relegated to the bench.
Gardner is the perfect #9 hitter in this lineup
Javier Vazquez got bumped from the rotation in April.
Come October, with all hands on deck, Phil Hughes is getting the baseball.
SJ44 June 9th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
bret,
No. I’m saying that if the Yankees ever decided to shop a catcher along with Nunez to bring back any player, I’d shop Cervelli first before I shop Romine or Montero.
I’d rather sell high on Cervelli than look either Romine or Montero because I believe both of those guys will be better long term than Cervelli.
************
I agree 100%.
Also agree on the Mets signing Vazquez and the Yankees getting the Mets 1st round pick!!!
Hopefully a mid-first rounder
Mo had to warm up last night ???
—————————–
He was stretching. I don’t believe they ever showed him throwing warmup pitches, though.
Even if he did, it was very brief. No worries.
Way too early to project the postseason rotation. First they have to make it there and second we have no idea how our pitchers will perform between then and now. Maybe the league figures out Hughes, maybe Pettitte breaks down, maybe Vazquez goes back to being terrible. If there are no injuries Joe will have to go with 4 guys unlike last year but the choice between Pettitte, Vazquez and Hughes might be a hard one.
“The Yankees took on more money, and traded talent, for Vazquez in the off-season because they had no confidence in Joba as a starter.”
I’ve seen this phrase repeated again and again for month and every time I fail to see the relevance of it.
I’m not sure it’s important what the Yankees may or may not be thinking last March or this June when we’re discussing Chamberlain’s long-term career.
The question is, can a very young, relatively inexperienced player like Chamberlain evolve and change the Yankees thinking as he does.
The way that phrase is repeated suggests to me the Yankees are made up their mind about this career and NOTHING can or will ever change it, which to me is a pretty damning criticism.
As far as the Yankees being “cheap” that always cracks me up.
They have the highest payroll in the game.
They signed Gary Sanchez for over 3 million dollars last year. The highest bonus they ever gave to an IFA.
They spend over slot on a number of draft picks last year.
They offered Echeverria, the Cuban SS who signed with the Jays almost 8 million. He turned it down because he wants to be in the majors in 2 years and signed with the Blue Jays for 10 million.
He’s currently hitting .220 in High A Ball in Dunedin.
They are hot and heavy on the Heredia kid, the Mexican pitcher who will be an IFA on July 2.
They are also in on a SS, I forgot his name, who could cost them at least $800K.
They made Johnny Damon the highest offer he got in free agency. Damon, foolishly, turned it down.
Hal isn’t afraid to spend. He ijust isn’t going to spend foolishly.
He has to be doing something right. The team won the WS in his second year of owning the team and has the second best record in baseball this year.
There is 0 chance Vazquez starts over Phil in the playoffs, unless Phil completely craps the bed in the 2nd half.
LGY/Bret
Let’s just hope we have that problem come playoff time. Meaning we are in the playoffs, and we have 5 starters worthy of getting the ball in the playoffs.
Cliff Lee’s last 3 years
2.96 ERA/1.15 WHIP
Burnett’s last 3 years
3.95 ERA/1.36 WHIP
Oh, and Lee has thrown 10 more innings than Burnett (515 to 505), despite missing a month this year.
Whatever stats you pull up over the last 3 years, they all favor Lee.
Gardner is hitting, fielding, and doing everything asked of him. I don’t see the financial prudence in spending $14M more on someone who would only yield a marginal benefit.
Adding to my previous point, Lee replacing Vazquez on the other hand, would be a huge benefit in terms of production.
Patrick,
The difference is, I know of many teams debt ratios due to the nature of my business and have a good handle on what they are willing, and can, take on payroll-wise.
It goes beyond what a good baseball decision would be.
Teams like the Dodgers and Blue Jays for example are so heavily leveraged, to take on a large contract like Lee’s they wouldn’t be able to get insurance on the deal.
Meaning, they would have to be on the hook for the entire contract and their financial conditions may not allow for that to happen.
A lot of teams in MLB are heavily leveraged and they can’t take on big deals unless their lender(s) approve.
In this financial climate, that’s a tall order.
“As long as Joba has these inconsistent mechanics, this is what he will be.”
I believe we’d all agree that’s a given.
SJ44,
Also after the first few picks in this year’s draft, a lot of them have been signability guys. How can the team with the highest payroll be “cheap” anyways?
G-C,
What are you arguing? No one said that Burnett isin’t a good pitcher. He isin’t great, but he’s not bad either.
We’re arguing for Lee pitching over him in a playoff rotation, which he should based on the numbers.
Lee IS better than Burnett across the board, and it’s not even that close. Just because Burnett would draw the short end of the straw in a stacked rotation, doesn’t mean he sucks.
CR, yes – Phil had a rough time in the playoffs and I can’t figure out why. That said, he was still dominant for a big portion of the season.
Weather for tonights game looks iffy.
Patrick,
I don’t know but, I read that on here all the time that Hal is “cheap” because he has…..gasp, a budget!! lol
“Cliff Lee’s last 3 years
2.96 ERA/1.15 WHIP
Burnett’s last 3 years
3.95 ERA/1.36 WHIP
Oh, and Lee has thrown 10 more innings than Burnett (515 to 505), despite missing a month this year.
Whatever stats you pull up over the last 3 years, they all favor Lee.”
Not debating that Lee has been a better pitcher than Burnett over the past three years. I’m more contesting the notion that Burnett is “inconsistent” and thus is a candidate to be jerked around by the organization. He’s not inconsistent, in any way, shape, or form. He just has some bad starts, just like every other single pitcher in baseball does. For some reason, and I’ll never understand why, Burnett’s bad starts are far more magnified than anyone else on the staff, Sabathia included.
I also don’t have nearly the faith that everyone else does that Lee will continue to pitch at this elite level in the American League. Just three years ago he was demoted to A ball for being utterly terrible in the majors. He is by all accounts a major malcontent too. Wouldn’t be excited to sign him, wouldn’t shell out big bucks for him.
I would rather wait until after 2011 and sign Oswalt to a short term 3 year, 60 million dollar deal, where he’ll get to extend his career in the AL and perhaps get the credit he has never gotten over a Hall of Fame quailty career.
Joker June 9th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
Brett,
No guarantee that Andy pitches this well next year. Unfortunately, the wheels are going to fall off him at some point.
=============================================
Andy could pitch well for another 5 years. He is invaluable to this team, the Jeter of the pitching staff, rock solid in the clutch. Who else can you say that about on this staff.
He goes year to year, sure like Mo might do, but he is a totally different pitcher now than he ever was. He could go year to year for many years, relying on guile and a new found cutter.
Can you say Jamie Moyer but much better.
SJ44,
My point is that you made it seem earlier like the Bronx is the only viable destination for Cliff Lee and that’s just not the case. Then you give some bogus reasons like “oh Colorado is scared of another Mike Hampton!”. Dude, that happened 10 years ago. Sure there are teams that can’t financially do it and I’ll accede to your expertise in that area but there are at least a dozen teams that could sign Cliff Lee.
Lee right now would be the best pitcher on the team, and that includes CC.
If someone needs to go to the bullpen in a 4 starter situation, it’ll be either Phil or Burnett.
“You can’t remove the 3 bad outings, especially for relief pitchers.”
No one is asking it to be stricken from the stat books.
“The fact that he has had 3 huge blowups already in a month shows it can happen again, in a big spot. What if we face Boston with the season on the line in late September, do you really trust him to get 3 outs, knowing he has had blown ups in the past?”
I’ll say it again, you have to identify what you want to talk about.
If want you want to discuss is whether you “trust” Joba Chamberlain, you’re 100% in the right.
If you want to discuss do the tools exist for him to perhaps put that long-stretch together, the evidence suggests it is.
That’s all anyone is saying.
vblade,
I agree with you completely. I don’t see the logic in spending 14 million + more for Crawford when you have Gardner in the fold already at a cost controlled number.
Even if Gardner’s numbers are a little less than Crawford’s, Gardner is a steal for a team that can use all the cost controlled productive players they can get in order to pay the big dogs what they demand.
Granted, Gardner needs to show he can do this for a full season, but I don’t see anything in his game right now that says he’s playing above his head. He’s a force and an offensive weapon and I give Girardi tons of credit for believing in this kid when posters in here wanted to degrade him for not possessing Melky’s sweet 25HR potential fantasy swing that’s yielded 1 HR so far this season.
“Nobody trades cost controlled everyday players for lights out relievers (since relief pitching varies greatly from year to year) and adds 100 million in payroll with a player like Crawford, who is similar to Gardner in many ways”
———————————————————-
thank you.
it is apparent a majority/large segment of fans on this site would rather buy a team. An all-star at EVERY position. Maybe this segment were not following the team in 2002-2007, a travelling NYY All-Star team, rejected from Round 1 of the playoffs every year
Not a chance that Phil will be better than Javy? Ouch, lol
# G-C June 9th, 2010 at 2:44 pm
I would rather wait until after 2011 and sign Oswalt to a short term 3 year, 60 million dollar deal, where he’ll get to extend his career in the AL and perhaps get the credit he has never gotten over a Hall of Fame quailty career.
————–
Old pitchers trying to extend their careers usually go from the AL to the NL, not the other way around. What makes you think Oswalt would be so effective in the AL, but not be sold on Cliff Lee, who’s already doing it in the AL as we speak?
jete ss
swish rf
tex 1b
al 3b
rob 2b
po dh
grand cf
cerv c
gard lf
Thanks for the win Doreen!
Jeter-SS
Swisher-RF
Tex-1B
ARod-3B
Cano-2B
Posada-DH
Granderson-CF
Cervelli-C
Russo-LF
SJ44
I dont know about the Yankees or other teams’ debt. I didnt read all the comments in-depth either.
With the revenue sharing and luxury tax, I understand having a budget there.
But I believe the Yankees should flex their financial muscle when it comes to international signings and draft picks.
Is that unreasonable?
Ok ,Stuckey – we will have to disagree on that; I don’t see Joba has having been anywhere near as dominant this year as Phil was last year.
Just looked up Cliff Lee and he will be 32 in August.
I’d say he’s going to get a 5 year deal starting in 2011.
He is better than AJ, Lackey, or Beckett.
He is going to get more $$ than they did, but not as much as CC.
18-20mil per year sounds like the numbers.
# vinny-b (Brett Gardner will never see the bench again) June 9th, 2010 at 2:46 pm
“Nobody trades cost controlled everyday players for lights out relievers (since relief pitching varies greatly from year to year) and adds 100 million in payroll with a player like Crawford, who is similar to Gardner in many ways”
———————————————————-
thank you.
it is apparent a majority/large segment of fans on this site would rather buy a team. An all-star at EVERY position. Maybe this segment were not following the team in 2002-2007, a travelling NYY All-Star team, rejected from Round 1 of the playoffs every year
———————-
I wouldn’t have a problem with an All-Star rotation though.
Pitching wins. I’d take a Lee-Sabathia-Pettitte-Hughes-Burnett rotation any day of the week, and twice in Octobers.
3 years 60 million for Roy Oswalt entering his age 35 season? No thanks…
Hall of fame is a bit strong too, although if he keeps pitching like he does for another 5-6 years I’ll agree with you.
“Gardner is hitting, fielding, and doing everything asked of him. I don’t see the financial prudence in spending $14M more on someone who would only yield a marginal benefit”
—————————————————————————————–
only 1 hole in your argument. Carl Crawford is a ‘name’ player
# Patrick from CT June 9th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
Just looked up Cliff Lee and he will be 32 in August.
I’d say he’s going to get a 5 year deal starting in 2011.
He is better than AJ, Lackey, or Beckett.
He is going to get more $$ than they did, but not as much as CC.
18-20mil per year sounds like the numbers.
————
It sounds like Lee will command only slightly more than AJ Burnett.
If the Yankees can shell out money for Burnett, they can shell out money for Cliff Lee, who is a much better pitcher. Also he is unlikely to cost more than $6M per annum than Vazquez.
Can’t CC re-up in a few years?
Well, Andy has been their best pitcher and I do think it’s reasonable to expect Phil to fall off from how he’s pitched…….We haven’t made the playoffs, so I won’t even speculate as to who would get bumped.
# vinny-b (Brett Gardner will never see the bench again) June 9th, 2010 at 2:50 pm
“Gardner is hitting, fielding, and doing everything asked of him. I don’t see the financial prudence in spending $14M more on someone who would only yield a marginal benefit”
—————————————————————————————–
only 1 hole in your argument. Carl Crawford is a ‘name’ player
———————–
I’d rather look at position players from a “Player A” and “Player B” standpoint to avoid that pitfall. But I’m sure some armchair GM’s will disagree.
Patrick-As an owner, I would not pay Oswalt that kind of money to pitch. No chance.
His age is a HUGE factor.
No chance in the 3rd year of his contract will be perform at a level that is worthy
of making $20 million.
“Old pitchers trying to extend their careers usually go from the AL to the NL, not the other way around. What makes you think Oswalt would be so effective in the AL, but not be sold on Cliff Lee, who’s already doing it in the AL as we speak?”
My bad on miswording that. I can see how it may have read that I was expecting him to “benefit” from the move to the AL and thus have him extend his career in that fashion. All I meant is that he’d be pitching another 3 years instead of retiring back home to Mississippi like has been speculated, and would get the money and perhaps the accolades that he has never received.
I’m sold on Oswalt because he’s one of the great pitchers of this generation. His career ERA + is 135, which is 25th on the all time leaderboard right now and tied for second (with Halladay and only behind Johan) in ERA + among active starting pitchers. He has a sterling track record in the MLB from the time he debuted in 2001. His highest ERA ever was 4.12 (last year). He misses plenty of bats and rarely walks anyone.
Halladay is another one who gets credit for being a God-like specimen on the mound and its deserved, and somehow Oswalt has toiled away in Houston without receiving a lick of the same attention.
Any chance Lee signs with someone for 3 years ala Halladay? Does anyone know if the guy is looking for years or salary?
# G-C June 9th, 2010 at 2:51 pm
“Old pitchers trying to extend their careers usually go from the AL to the NL, not the other way around. What makes you think Oswalt would be so effective in the AL, but not be sold on Cliff Lee, who’s already doing it in the AL as we speak?”
My bad on miswording that. I can see how it may have read that I was expecting him to “benefit” from the move to the AL and thus have him extend his career in that fashion. All I meant is that he’d be pitching another 3 years instead of retiring back home to Mississippi like has been speculated, and would get the money and perhaps the accolades that he has never received.
I’m sold on Oswalt because he’s one of the great pitchers of this generation. His career ERA + is 135, which is 25th on the all time leaderboard right now and tied for second (with Halladay and only behind Johan) in ERA + among active starting pitchers. He has a sterling track record in the MLB from the time he debuted in 2001. His highest ERA ever was 4.12 (last year). He misses plenty of bats and rarely walks anyone.
Halladay is another one who gets credit for being a God-like specimen on the mound and its deserved, and somehow Oswalt has toiled away in Houston without receiving a lick of the same attention.
————–
Oswalt is a fantastic pitcher. However, I don’t expect his power-reliant repertoire to age well, and you’re signing him to a 3 year contract at age 35.
“I don’t see Joba has having been anywhere near as dominant this year as Phil was last year.”
Does the postseason count as part of last year?
considering every high-ceiling pitcher in the NYY system besides Phil Hughes has been a bust to this point (Garcia, Betances, Brackman, etc) it may be the proper time to sign a Cliff Lee.
only 1 hole in your argument. Carl Crawford is a ‘name’ player
———————–
“I’d rather look at position players from a “Player A” and “Player B” standpoint to avoid that pitfall. But I’m sure some armchair GM’s will disagree”
———————————————————-
vblade: sarcasm.
With Javy sure to go next year, of course we should go after Lee.
Why is that even a question?
Betsy, for you:
JC 2010, minus the 3 blow-ups
23.2 IP
17H
28K
6 BB
1 HR
0.97 whip
1.90 ERA
PH as a reliever in 2009
51.1 IP
31H
65K
13w
2HR
1.40 ERA
0.86 whip
Hughes was more dominant, yes, but as I say, the numbers are in the same neighborhood.
“Any chance Lee signs with someone for 3 years ala Halladay? Does anyone know if the guy is looking for years or salary?”
I think the Phillies might.
# vinny-b (Brett Gardner will never see the bench again) June 9th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
only 1 hole in your argument. Carl Crawford is a ‘name’ player
———————–
“I’d rather look at position players from a “Player A” and “Player B” standpoint to avoid that pitfall. But I’m sure some armchair GM’s will disagree”
———————————————————-
vblade: sarcasm.
————–
I know haha. You aren’t one of those, most of us do adapt the Player A vs Player B marginal benefit analysis thing. lol
“considering every high-ceiling pitcher in the NYY system besides Phil Hughes has been a bust to this point (Garcia, Betances, Brackman, etc) it may be the proper time to sign a Cliff Lee.”
None of those guys have pitched and succeeded at a high enough minor league level to be considered losses at the major league level.
A guy like Kennedy could have been deemed a bust but given that he’s been the Diamondbacks best pitcher this year it looks like it was merely a case of impatience on the Yankees part (although I don’t believe he would be succeeding like this in the AL either).
“I don’t see Joba has having been anywhere near as dominant this year as Phil was last year.”
Does the postseason count as part of last year?
——————————————————–
doesn’t matter. Both Hughes and Joba performed poorly in the post-season, last year. Chamberlain was lucky to not be a goat
# G-C June 9th, 2010 at 2:59 pm
“considering every high-ceiling pitcher in the NYY system besides Phil Hughes has been a bust to this point (Garcia, Betances, Brackman, etc) it may be the proper time to sign a Cliff Lee.”
None of those guys have pitched and succeeded at a high enough minor league level to be considered losses at the major league level.
A guy like Kennedy could have been deemed a bust but given that he’s been the Diamondbacks best pitcher this year it looks like it was merely a case of impatience on the Yankees part (although I don’t believe he would be succeeding like this in the AL either).
———————–
Being the D-Back’s best pitcher this year isn’t really an accolade, more like a default status.
Their pitching staff is terrible.
“A guy like Kennedy could have been deemed a bust but given that he’s been the Diamondbacks best pitcher this year it looks like it was merely a case of impatience on the Yankees part”
Was it impatience or jumping at the opportunity to have Granderson manning centerfield?
Erica, did you ask for any other pitcher instead of Garcia from Boston Dave?
Don’t forget that unless I’m wrong some kid named Greinke is going to be a free agent after the 2011 season (going into his age 28 season)…
Greinke is not going to be a FA until after the 2012 season
Jeter SS
Swisher RF
Teixeira 1B
Rodriguez 3B
Cano 2B
Posada DH
Granderson CF
Thames LF
Cervelli C
mick June 9th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
Erica, did you ask for any other pitcher instead of Garcia from Boston Dave?
**********
Not yet. I am going to think when I get home and probably offer a trade then.
I can’t give it the full, careful consideration it needs while I am at work
Paul O”Neiil’s son Michael was selected by the yankees in the 42nd round
SJ44:
don’t know if you online. If you are, what do you think of the Cito Culver selection? Any chance the experts are proven wrong (ala Tony Sanchez)?
Diamondbacks aside, Kennedy has been a really good pitcher this year. 3.46 ERA, 65 strikeouts in 75 innings against just 25 walks. The only bug has been the home run (14 allowed) which is not surprising considering his stature and fastball.
I still wish we could have made that deal without including him because in the context of his performance now it looks like we gave up a little much. I love Granderson and think he’ll be a fixture here for the next couple of years, but they did give up a significant haul to get him.
vinny
They were talking about Tony yesterday at the beginning of the coverage of the draft on mlb.com in the manner you are referring to! It was kind of fun to hear all the praise given!
Oh my goodness. Some people have their accounting off. If the Yankees were to upgrade LF by signing Crawford then you can’t call it a 13-15 million dollar annual expenditure over a cost controlled player like Gardner making 500k. Why? Because you can reallocate your resources to acquire additional assets thereby reducing expenditures in other areas. When you spend 13-15 million per season on Crawford, YOU STILL HAVE GARDNER as an asset. If you trade Gardner for a cost controlled reliever, closer, prospect, starter WHATEVER you have to deduct the monetary value of that acquisition from Crawford’s 13-15 million dollar salary. So let’s say Gardner is worth 10 mil per season and the Yankees acquire an asset in another area of the roster for Gardner and that acquisition is also worth 10 mil per season, cost controlled. Now you’re spending an extra 3-5 million per season to have Crawford in LF instead of Gardner AND you get to keep your new cost controlled asset worth 10 million per season.
Patrick,
I’m not saying the Yankees are only destination for Lee. I’m saying the list of teams actually able to sign him is smaller than it appears.
I’m also saying, given what the Yankees can do and what Lee is looking for, it may be his preferred destination.
If that’s the case, and the Yankees really want him, I believe they will sign him.
“Being the D-Back’s best pitcher this year isn’t really an accolade, more like a default status”
—————————————————————————
word. Sergio Mitre would be doing the same on that team. No exaggeration
new thread
“They were talking about Tony yesterday at the beginning of the coverage of the draft on mlb.com in the manner you are referring to! It was kind of fun to hear all the praise given!”
——————————————————————
cool
Erica
You might want to ask about Shaun Marcum instead of or in addition to Garcia.
If you can get 2 pitchers and Bautista for Wright, jump on it w/out hesitation.
If he offers just one of the 2 pitchers take Marcum and run.
“I doubt many Yankee fans will be “annoyed” if next years rotation is, CC, AJ, Lee, Pettitte and Hughes”.
That would be so unfair to the rest of baseball.
As much as I like Joba and as much as I defend him, you can’t just ignore the bad outings.
Take the 3 worst outings away from any pitcher and they’ll look pretty good. Take away Vazquez’s 3 worst outings and he’s 5-3, with a 3.6 ERA, 42 K’s, 17 walks, 1.12 WHIP
I do feel optimistic about Joba because he shows flairs of brilliance and his mechanics have been improving. The velocity, movement and control is there it’s just there 100% of the time. I think the more he pitches the more consistent he’ll be. I truly believe he’ll be back to his old self in the second half this year.
Poor Betsy,
You’re getting the grief today!
I’m critical of Joba. And I love Phil. But when I’m critical of Joba it’s because I feel that there are things that he’s doing a poor job of controlling things that I feel he’s capable of.
Not because he’s not Phil. Or doesn’t do this or that like Phil.
I think Joba’s a bit stubborn and as a result, he’s making things harder for himself than they should be.
But I wouldn’t criticize a player because he’s un-(phill in the blank)-like.
SJ44,
Fair enough. I think there are a number of teams that would be willing and able to sign Lee but it’s possible the Yanks are the ideal destination for him.
I still believe that things can (and will) change by the time the offseason is here. I’m standing by my prediction that if Pettitte re-signs the Yanks don’t get Crawford or Lee.
Good to see Tex live up to his back of card stats last night.
Go BOC Tex
new thread
Erica—— Wright is not worth it, you need Pitching.
You can always pick up a bat and Bautista is worth more than Wright right now plus he’s a 3b/OF.
Guess the Lineup is Now Closed for Today
Thanks for playing, everyone.