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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Beating up on Baltimore one more time

Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Today in the Journal News on Jun 10, 2010 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Yankees Orioles BaseballInteresting stats from our good friend Pete Caldera: CC Sabathia is 4-0 with a 2.73 ERA against Baltimore this year. Against everyone else he’s 2-3 with a 4.69.

Those numbers are after last night’s game, when Sabathia got on a roll after the third inning and helped carry the Yankees to a 4-2 win. His past four wins have come against the Orioles, and he hasn’t beaten another team since April 16 against Texas.

Two other things in today’s paper: The notebook has items on Brett Gardner, Jorge Posada and Alex Rodriguez.

Jake Thomases writes that five players from the Westchester area were taken in the amateur draft.

Associated Press photo of Derek Jeter from last night’s game.

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106 Responses to “Beating up on Baltimore one more time”

  1. MTU (aka GBURL) June 10th, 2010 at 8:57 am

    Off topic:

    Repost of my YMH tribute. We’re even Phil. Your turn next. :)

    http://picasaweb.google.com/cybermrb03/Watchman#

  2. MTU (aka GBURL) June 10th, 2010 at 9:00 am

    There have been several real quality discussion on here of late :

    Cl vs. cc for next season

    Tex’ swing mechanics

    Analysis of the draft

    We’re on a roll without a troll. :)

  3. Bryan June 10th, 2010 at 9:00 am

    $160M+ to beat the Orioles

    good investment

  4. MTU (aka GBURL) June 10th, 2010 at 9:05 am

    It’s really great when your starting staff can grit it out and keep the team in games even when they happen to be struggling.

    We have at least 3 guys who can do that :

    AP, CC, and Hughes.

    How great is that ? Even when they are bad they are good. :)

  5. Mike C. June 10th, 2010 at 9:06 am

    $160M+ to beat the Orioles

    good investment

    Its better then losing to the Orioles. Its not his fault the Yankees have played them so much so early in the year.

  6. blake June 10th, 2010 at 9:07 am

    SJ,
    I agree, if the Yankees start to and continue to produce their players then they create such a disadvantage for other teams because they can just plug in what they don’t have via trade or free agency and create a perfect balance.

    Its also vital that the Yankees have this ability as more and more restrictions on Major league payroll will likely come in the future….player development would allow them to keep an advantage in that event.

  7. vinny-b (Brett Gardner will never see the bench again) June 10th, 2010 at 9:08 am

    Frankie Piliere really liked the RedSox draft.

    that said, i will take the optomistic view of SJ44 and hope they can’t sign any of them

  8. SJ44 June 10th, 2010 at 9:12 am

    Did you say the same thing about CC last year when they were winning the World Series or do you just like to whine?

    Its amazing the short memories of some of the children on here.

    The guy had the same mechanical issues going into June last year and was the most dominant pitcher in the league the second half of the year.

    Some people just whine for the sake of whining.

  9. Tom in N.J. June 10th, 2010 at 9:12 am

    CC’s a second half pitcher, he always has been.

    His era this year-4.01- is right in line with his career first half ERA, which is 3.90.

  10. MTU (aka GBURL) June 10th, 2010 at 9:14 am

    vinny-

    Personally, I don’t worry about what the Sux do or don’t do.

    I only care about what we do.

    They could play ping-pong with the Devil and I would even notice. :)

  11. MTU (aka GBURL) June 10th, 2010 at 9:15 am

    “wouldn’t” not “would”. Duh.

  12. JM June 10th, 2010 at 9:15 am

    They could play ping-pong with the Devil and I would even notice.

    But would the Devil win??

  13. MTU (aka GBURL) June 10th, 2010 at 9:16 am

    JM-

    “But would the Devil win??”

    Guess. :)

  14. SJ44 June 10th, 2010 at 9:17 am

    Vinny,

    The Red Sox had a different objective than the Yankees in this draft out of necessity.

    They took a lot of college kids and high risk signees because they need the help in the upper levels of their system to replace guys at the major league level in the next few years. They are thin in that area and free agency in the next couple of years at the major league level isn’t likely to bear fruit for them.

    My feeling about the Red Sox is that they take a lot of these high risk signing type of kids to keep them away from other teams.

    They take them and if they can’t sign them (this is true of the HS kids with solid commitments), they let them go to school and not worry about it because it keeps them away from the competition.

    Only problem with that philosophy is, you sometimes affect your depth in your system.

    If the Sox sign everybody this year, they are going to spend over 20 million in bonus money.

    That’s risky, especially with college arms such as Renaudo and Workman because those guys have a lot of wear and tear on their arms due to overuse in college.

    Its basically a high risk, high reward philosophy.

    It will be interesting to see how it plays out for them.

  15. RS June 10th, 2010 at 9:17 am

    People want to make a big deal that CC has only beaten the Orioles the past month. But the truth is he should have at least 3 more wins over that span, 2 against the Red Sox and 1 against the Indians.

    The rain delay game at Fenway Park where the Yankees pounded the Sox 14-3 and CC was one strike away from recording 5 innings, and the two games where Joba blew a 4-run 8th inning lead, one in which CC had a dominant start (7 ip, 1 ER against the Sox).

  16. JM June 10th, 2010 at 9:19 am

    Even the Devil might have difficulty concentrating if he was staring across a ping pong table at Youk. :)

  17. CB June 10th, 2010 at 9:19 am

    “The Yanks as policy do not share proprietary info with BA or media outlets.”

    I wanted to follow up on this point that Phil made yesterday evening.

    One of the main ways in which fans and the media judge how good a baseball draft is is by how closely a team makes selections in accordance with how BA, BP and Keith Law rates the players. That’s how people judge “upside,” and whether it’s a “value pick,” etc or conversely where people start making silly accusations like the yankees picked a player they haven’t heard of from BA so it must be because Hal is “cheap.”

    Here’s the thing – neither BA nor BP have “scouts” or a “scouting service.” And Keith Law is one guy.

    So all of them rely very, very heavily on the evaluations and opinions of scouts they know if the industry.

    If certain scouts won’t talk to them or share information with them, then the media outlets are out of luck. There is just no way a media outlet can actually engage in talent evaluation without the help of the clubs. There is very little centralization in the baseball draft that BA, etc. can draw on. There is no NFL combine they can visit. The luxury of being able to see every play of a players amateur career isn’t even a remote possibility – just the opposite. If they can even get a few minutes of grainy amateur handheld video on some player from say the east coast that can be unusual. Keith Law is much more qualified to judge talent than Mel Kiper is. But the thing that Kiper always falls back on is that he can say that he’s watched every game some random right guard from Delaware State or where ever has played. Law can’t do that. Baseball scouting is still about hitting the road and sitting in the stands.

    The problem is even worse for Jim Callis or Kevin Goldstein because they don’t even have the baseball backgroung that Law does. So BA and BP are even more dependent on sources in the game.

    So the media outlets by sheer necessity depend on teams talking to them. And ultimately, they are only going to have so many sources who are willing to speak to them candidly and honestly about a player they like. And again out of necessity, those sources that will speak to them are going to be the ones that influence the world view of the media outlet. It’s not a matter of favoring one team vs. another. There’s only so much a place like BA can do. There’s only a certain group of sources they have. They generally seem to try to do the best job possible, but there’s only so much information that can be had.

    If you are the Braves and have pick 14 and you have been watching Jason Heyward since he was 12 or 13 why would you ever tell Jim Callis or Keith Law that your entire organization loves Heyward, that you think he’s the best player in the draft. That when Callis and Law or anyone is describing Heyward as a “raw athelte” they are completely off the mark? You’re not because you are going to praying that he falls to you at 14 despite the fact that there aren’t 13 beter players than him who have come out over the past decade never mind in one year.

    So the situation is set up as a form of selection bias. And it’s nothing particularly malicious. It’s just the way it is when you have limited sources of information. Those sources shape your opinion.

    And ultimately the Yankees as an organizational philosophy do not leak and share very little information with the media. “It’s a process.” From Jeter to Cashman. That’s about what you get.

    So the guys the yankees are high on – those evaluations – never make it into the hands of BA or BP prior to the draft. The yankees aren’t telling anyone that they really like this catcher out of Souther Cal who has been injured most of his senior season. So BA isn’t going to be very high on Austin Romine. Keith Law won’t have him in his top 100. They won’t know to take a second look.

    One of the amazing things about the baseball draft is how nearly every year the red sox are considered to have a “great” draft – most often better than the Rays, for example. Yet the Rays – a team that signs no international kids – has an infinitely better minor league system. The same is true of the Rangers. Think about how many internally developed players the Rockies have – yet BA and BP and Law are rarely if ever exited about the Rockies draft.

    And unlike the Yankees it does seem like the Red Sox actively leak to the press on issues from trades to free agents. And it does seem like a number of the sources who will actually talk to Law, Callis, Goldstein etc. about the draft come from the Sox. There’s nothing wrong with that. You can only use the sources who will speak to you.

    But that is going to systematically bias things like the BA top 200 or Law’s top 100. It’s going to systematically bias those evaluations in a way which makes them closer to the boards of the teams like the Sox that are willing to share information prior to the draft.

  18. Betsy - Hughes rules (Pleading the Fifth) June 10th, 2010 at 9:19 am

    I haven’t changed my mind on Keith Law – I still hate him. The fact that he disliked the Yankees draft is hardly a surprise.

    So Frankie loved the Sox draft? So much for him being a Yankee schill as one poster called him. I’m not surprised – everyone loved the Sox draft; I’ve tried to avoid anything about the draft since because I don’t feel like getting frustrated.

    Kate, that was not the article that caused the stir. I just posted it because of the conversation that we were having last night.

  19. vinny-b (Brett Gardner will never see the bench again) June 10th, 2010 at 9:19 am

    “Personally, I don’t worry about what the Sux do or don’t do.
    I only care about what we do.
    They could play ping-pong with the Devil and I would even notice.”
    —————————————————————-

    MTU:

    you’re a better man than me.

    I rather the Redsox impersonate Wile E Coyote and have everything blow up in their face

  20. Betsy - Hughes rules (Pleading the Fifth) June 10th, 2010 at 9:20 am

    SJ, your issue is with Joel Sherman and Wally Matthews – they are the ones who ripped him this morning. That said, he has not pitched well this year, so he needs to get on a roll starting……soon.

  21. Billy D June 10th, 2010 at 9:23 am

    “So Frankie loved the Sox draft? So much for him being a Yankee schill as one poster called him.”

    That was me, and I stand by it. I also indicated that beyond the Yankees, he’s always been very objective about the rest of baseball.

  22. SJ44 June 10th, 2010 at 9:23 am

    CB,

    Exactly right.

    My question is this…..

    If the Red Sox farm system is so good, why do they have to spend 100 million more in the off-season to fill holes in the rotation, SS, and CF. They had to spend more to fill the hole at C with the Martinez trade. Nick Hagadone is throwing the ball very well for Akron in AA. That kid has a chance to be a very good pitcher down the line.

    All these years we have been hearing about how “great” the Red Sox farm system is from these pundits. Yet, they aren’t filling holes from within.

    If your farm system is as good as advertised, you should be able to fill those holes from within.

  23. MTU (aka GBURL) June 10th, 2010 at 9:23 am

    Vinny-

    Not necessary. Waste of a good Coyote.

    You KNOW what happens when you dance with the Devil.

    And you KNOW who always wins. ;)

  24. pat June 10th, 2010 at 9:24 am

    I grew up with one of the parents of one of the kids from Westchester who was drafted. Very happy for them but it just made me have a I’m not as young as I think I am kind of moment.

  25. MTU (aka GBURL) June 10th, 2010 at 9:24 am

    CB-

    I always love your posts.

    When is the book coming out ? :)

  26. MTU (aka GBURL) June 10th, 2010 at 9:25 am

    JM-

    lol. This is true. :)

  27. SJ44 June 10th, 2010 at 9:25 am

    How has CC not “pitched well” this year. That’s not true.

    He lost one win being one strike away in Boston. He lost another when Joba blew a 5 run lead in NY.

    If he is 8-3 right now instead of 6-3 nobody is saying anything.

    Does ANYBODY remember last year? He is throwing the ball BETTER this year at the same time.

    He just lost two bad results that took wins away from him.

    I’m not worried about CC. He will be fine.

  28. Tom in N.J. June 10th, 2010 at 9:27 am

    Last year CC gave up 38 earned runs through his first 13 starts.

    This year CC has given up 38 runs through his first 13 starts.

  29. Betsy - Hughes rules (Pleading the Fifth) June 10th, 2010 at 9:27 am

    CB, great post. What bothers me, however, is the fact that there seems to be a level of trust between Law, BA, BP, etc.. and the Sox. If the Sox draft a player, there must be a reason – he must be good. With the Yankees, no such thing. MLB network embarrassed themselves by going silent after Culver’s name was announced – then laughing (I didn’t hear the laugh, but others have pointed it out). I am extremely annoyed, to the point that I may not watch them again. In any case, the point is, not one of these “experts” has the faith in the Yankees that they do in the Sox; if there are people out there who think the Yankees could go on another run, they sure aren’t employed at BA, BP, etc……

  30. Erin June 10th, 2010 at 9:28 am

    vinny-b (Brett Gardner will never see the bench again) June 10th, 2010 at 9:19 am

    I rather the Redsox impersonate Wile E Coyote and have everything blow up in their face

    *****************************
    :lol:

    I love Wile E Coyote!! Don’t mix him up with the Red Sox. ;)

  31. Betsy - Hughes rules (Pleading the Fifth) June 10th, 2010 at 9:29 am

    SJ, to be fair, the Yankees had to throw $$$$ at CC and AJ and Tex after the 2008 season…….

    We’ll just have to agree to disagree about CC; I didn’t say he’s been awful, but I don’t think he’s pitched that great. Also, I never said I was worried about him.

  32. SJ44 June 10th, 2010 at 9:30 am

    Why do you care so much about what the media thinks Betsy?

    What difference does it make?

    The Yankees are the defending World Champions. They put a product on the field that’s competitive and fun to watch every night. Isn’t that enough?

    Why do you need media validation?

    Do you know how boring it is to write about how “great” the Yankees are when most of the rest of the country HATES the Yankees?

    Every good story has to have a villain and when it comes to baseball coverage, its the Yankees.

    I’d rather that be the case than everybody loving the Yankees and saying how great they are yet, the on field results are lacking.

    It doesn’t matter what the media thinks about the Yankees. It has no bearing on how they play or how they run their organization.

  33. pat June 10th, 2010 at 9:32 am

    K. Long and Girardi explain why moving Tex and some others in the batting order isn’t happening.

    http://mobile.newsday.com/inf/.....nopaging=1

  34. SJ44 June 10th, 2010 at 9:33 am

    Betsy,

    That’s what big market teams do. They sign free agents.

    Unlike the Yankees however, all we have heard is how much “talent” is in the Red Sox farm system.

    Yet…..the Yankees have more homegrown players on its roster and the Red Sox still spent over 100 million dollars on free agents in the off-season. There is a disconnect there.

    Go back and look at CC’s numbers at this time last year. You will see he is actually pitching a little better this year than last year.

    He hasn’t been nearly as bad as depicted by some.

  35. Joe June 10th, 2010 at 9:35 am

    CC is still THE MAN. he should have had 2 wins against Boston and one against the indians. the first on 05/08 when we beat Boston 14-3 but he didn’t get a win since he was taken one out short due to the rain delay. then the second one 05/18 when he left with a 5 run lead but good ol Joba blew it yet again. and the last one against the indians on 05/29 when he also left with another 5 run lead and the bullpen in particular Joba blew him again. That said, I realize he hasn’t been himself but he should be 9-3 which if Im not mistaking will put him # 1 in the AL in wins and his ERA will come down to around 3 very soon.

  36. SJ44 June 10th, 2010 at 9:37 am

    I forgot about the Indians game (try to put that one out of my memory! lol).

    He should be 9-3. If he was, there wouldn’t be a single story written about, “what’s wrong with CC”.

  37. Betsy - Hughes rules (Pleading the Fifth) June 10th, 2010 at 9:38 am

    What bothers me is BA, etc… (are you counting these organizations as members of the media) always hate the Yankees drafts and never have anything nice to say about them while the Sox can do no wrong. It would be nice for the Yankees to be credited for something….AND, as I’m sure you know, the Sox are no underdog. They are not some cute little franchise that people just love because they have to face the behemoth every year; they are a behemoth themselves.

    That said, I don’t spend my days thinking about this stuff – just when it comes up in conversation. Generally, I can’t pretend that I don’t care what the media says about our players – I like our players to be well-thought of.

  38. Betsy - Hughes rules (Pleading the Fifth) June 10th, 2010 at 9:42 am

    I’m sure CC will be fine, but that is the topic du jour because we won’t be seeing the O’s again anytime soon. I’m not worried about CC and I think it’s pathetic that Sherman and Matthews or anyone else actually thinks CC can only beat the Orioles. Frankly, I’m glad to be rid of them; CC has pitched against them four times, Phil 3 times – out of about 12 starts. Enough, lol. Anyway, though I don’t think he’s pitched great, I don’t think his start is worth 2 columns worth. Does anyone think he’s not the best pitcher on the staff or that he would start game 1 of a playoff series (despite what folks on the Daily News show said about starting Andy)?

  39. MTU (aka GBURL) June 10th, 2010 at 9:42 am

    SJ-

    As far as I am concerned the whole Sux organization is over rated.

    They have sucked in the past.

    Are not a match for us in the present.

    And will continue to suck hind t*t in the future.

    That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it. :)

  40. Tom in N.J. June 10th, 2010 at 9:42 am

    What does it matter in the long run what people write, say, or think about the Red Sox? It doesn’t give them any competitve advantage on the field.

    The Sox ‘win’ the media game because they play the media game. The Yankees don’t play the media game; they win World Series games.

  41. CB June 10th, 2010 at 9:44 am

    “If your farm system is as good as advertised, you should be able to fill those holes from within.”

    SJ-

    I think it’s the same issue related to access of information. The Sox seem to really like to talk to the media. From Henry down. They’ve done it with Gammons obviously with years. The Sox clearly believe leaking information to the media is a strategic advantage. Probably some management PR strategy of some kind. Providing access lets you shape the story so to speak.

    So their system is going to be thought more highly of that a system where the team doesn’t talk.

    You bring up the point about the disconnect between how their system is perceived and what it tangibly produces. That’s on the output end. In some ways the input end is even more ridiculous. How can you have a “great” draft every single year for the past 7-8 years – literally one of the top 5 drafts every season – yet not have any viable talent to help out the club at the upper levels? How is that possible when only have around 7-8 internally developed players on the roster so it’s not as if all those great draftees are loading up the major league roster? They make trades but not that many. Not enough to deplete the great bounty of talent they supposedly pick every year.

    I do think that they are one of the teams that shares information freely so BA’s draft board is going to disproportionately tend to look like their draft board. And in turn when players come off the board they are going to follow that evaluation process so the Sox are always going to be the big story of every draft because when they take a player off their board it’s going to tend to follow the layout dictated on the BA board. It’s a self-fulfilling prophesy.

    The contrast with perceptions about Tampa are really just so stark. Tamps’s draft is rarely if ever spoken about in such laudatory terms as the Sox is. Yet tampa has had much, much more productive system than the Sox have. Where is tampa getting this talent? It’s not internationally. So it has to be the draft. But from what we’re told every year – the Sox draft amazingly well. There’s just a big disconnect there.

    And Tampa is not a team that is going to leak anything about their talent evaluation process. Their life blood is their talent evaluation and that’s going to be proprietary in a big, big way. So the media outlets aren’t going to see it and their draft boards aren’t going to reflect Tampa’s astute talent evaluation. It’s a cycle.

  42. 86w183 June 10th, 2010 at 9:44 am

    SJ is absolutely right. “Everyone” hates the Yankees and loves the Cubbies.

    Better to be great and hated than lousy and lovable!

    CB — great post on baseball draft coverage. One scout might be able to offer up a strong opinion on 50 prospects… shoot let’s say 100 of them. More than 1,000 players get draft, which is why other than first and maybe second rounders the evaluations are second and third hand at best.

    Case in point is Renaudo. I saw him earlier this spring and he was awful. He was much better in the SEC Tournament, but overall was not all that impressive. He was drafted on what she showed in 2009, but he may never be that guy again due to elbow issues.

  43. MTU (aka GBURL) June 10th, 2010 at 9:46 am

    Oh, and SJ, I forgot to mention that we have 27 WC’s to back that up with #28 on the way.

    Take that Sux !

  44. SJ44 June 10th, 2010 at 9:46 am

    The Red Sox have been darlings of the media for years. Most of their front office people talk to BA and BP (off the record of course) all the time.

    The Yankees don’t talk to BA or BP, on or off the record, about their drafts, player moves, etc.

    That means they aren’t going to get favorable coverage and they don’t care.

    If they don’t care, why should anybody else?

    None of it matters in the big picture.

    It makes it all more enjoyable when the “perfect franchise” isn’t so perfect.

    Betsy,

    NOBODY can just how good or bad ANY team did in this draft. These guys haven’t even played professionally yet.

    Its all kneejerk, instant analysis and its meaningless.

    Get back to me in three years and we will have a much clearer idea of who are the “winners” and “losers” in this draft.

  45. ron June 10th, 2010 at 9:47 am

    The yankees have cervelli helping the ml club,romine,montero on their way & 1or 2 can be used in a trade for a top player if needed.
    Outside of lester,pap,pedroia,youk i am not impressed with the rs system.

    I’ll give them lester & youk but pap will be gone & cano is much better than pedroia.

    There is no way to predict what will happen with drafted players.Only time will tell.

    The one reality i am certain of is ever since i started following baseball in 1976-77 the yankees have owned the rs & the rest of baseball & built the number one team in all of sports & i don’t see that changing in my lifetime.

  46. Erica in NY June 10th, 2010 at 9:48 am

    86w183 June 10th, 2010 at 9:44 am
    SJ is absolutely right. ?Everyone? hates the Yankees and loves the Cubbies.
    ***********

    Could you imagine being 100+ years without a championship?

    Thats generations of people in Chciago living and dying without having a team to celebrate

  47. CB June 10th, 2010 at 9:50 am

    “It would be nice for the Yankees to be credited for something….”

    Not really. The flip side of my post is that in order to “get credit” you have to share information.

    It’s not BA’s fault the yankees won’t talk to them. It’s just not. And given that the yankees don’t, then there’s no way for BA to reflect the yankees perspective in things like their BA top 200 prior to the draft.

    The yankees don’t care. Nor should they. I would never want them to give away valuable proprietary information just to alter perception.

    It’s just a very different organizational philosophy. It’s the same thing about leaking names in trade rumors. The Sox are literally in hot on every deal. The yankees don’t leak about anything.

    The Sox see value in trying to control the story. The yankees value proprietary information and are very guarded.

    There’s pluses and minuses to both.

    But too often people blame BA, etc for the different ways the two organizations tend to work.

  48. Erin June 10th, 2010 at 9:51 am

    86w183 June 10th, 2010 at 9:44 am
    SJ is absolutely right. ?Everyone? hates the Yankees and loves the Cubbies.

    *************************
    No question-Chicago would have to shut down for a month if the Cubs won. Possibly longer. lol

  49. upstate kate June 10th, 2010 at 9:52 am

    personally I would rather rely on posters like SJ, CB, Phil, GB etc to get my info. I really don’t care what these articles say, they are just trying to sell papers.

    The Rays have really made the most of their draft picks, and their trades and signings (not including Pat Burrell of course!) Looks like the Nats are attempting to follow in their foot steps. To me, that is good for all of baseball…look at all the attention the Strasburg debut generated.

    and Erin- I saw a real coyote on my way to work this am

  50. Erica in NY June 10th, 2010 at 9:54 am

    Erin June 10th, 2010 at 9:51 am
    86w183 June 10th, 2010 at 9:44 am
    SJ is absolutely right. ?Everyone? hates the Yankees and loves the Cubbies.

    *************************
    No question-Chicago would have to shut down for a month if the Cubs won. Possibly longer. lol
    ************

    It actually scares me to think about how many people will probably be hurt or killed in the “celebrations”

  51. Damon enjoy 27....think 28 June 10th, 2010 at 9:54 am

    Speaking of bosox, that shut out last night came from Masterson who spent two yrs with them and traded last July.

    Francona knew he had problems with lefties, so he loaded t he bosox line up with lefties, and Masterson pitched just 2 measly hits from a perfect game.

    This had to sting, because you know what they say about revenge, (a dish best served cold) and he did leave egg on the bosox faces!!

  52. SJ44 June 10th, 2010 at 9:54 am

    CB,

    That’s just it. If one is an objective observer the logical question is, “If your farm system is so great, why aren’t more players coming through”?

    Why do you have to spend so much money on Marco Scutaro, Adrian Beltre and Mike Cameron, three over 30 (one closer to 40) free agents? It doesn’t make any sense.

    When it comes to Baseball America, all I can tell you from personal experience is, don’t get caught up in their rankings. They aren’t coming from a knowledge based perspective.

    They are coming from a “who gives us the most information” perspective. Two entirely different deals.

  53. Erin June 10th, 2010 at 9:54 am

    upstate kate June 10th, 2010 at 9:52 am

    and Erin- I saw a real coyote on my way to work this am

    ****************************
    how cool!! he wasn’t chasing after a road runner was he? ;)

  54. morningstar June 10th, 2010 at 9:55 am

    I count 13 home grown Yankees on the 25 man roster (Thames and Pettitte count under MLB rules), plus Nick Johnson on the DL, so the organization is doing something very right as far as development. Especially when you consider Swisher, Granderson, Rodriguez, Vasquez were obtained in trades for packages that included prospects/developed players.

  55. Erica in NY June 10th, 2010 at 9:56 am

    Erin June 10th, 2010 at 9:54 am
    upstate kate June 10th, 2010 at 9:52 am

    and Erin- I saw a real coyote on my way to work this am

    ****************************
    how cool!! he wasn?t chasing after a road runner was he?

    *****************

    Am I a bad person for always rooting for the Coyote?
    I kind of thought Roadrunner had it coming after a while

  56. ron June 10th, 2010 at 9:57 am

    It was amazing to see the stadium packed with such energy when strasburg started the other night.

    A few players & a little hope goes a long way.

  57. upstate kate June 10th, 2010 at 9:57 am

    Erin
    no road runners up here…maybe a wild turkey or a partridge

  58. Tom in N.J. June 10th, 2010 at 9:58 am

    Look at David Adams. He’s currently hitting to the tune of a .900 OPS in AA. And he’s a second baseman.

    Look at Brandon Laird. He was a 27th round draft choice who’s also raking at AA.

  59. Erin June 10th, 2010 at 9:59 am

    Erica in NY June 10th, 2010 at 9:54 am

    It actually scares me to think about how many people will probably be hurt or killed in the ?celebrations?

    **************************
    I know. It would be absolutely insane.

  60. SAS June 10th, 2010 at 9:59 am

    MTU

    Those pics may be the best yet for a paining. If it isn’t too much trouble, I would love it is you would email them to me. You know I LOVE your work. Thanks

  61. MTU (aka GBURL) June 10th, 2010 at 10:00 am

    Erin-

    We’ve got em’ both out here. ;)

    They are good friends.

  62. Erica in NY June 10th, 2010 at 10:00 am

    SJ44-

    I have a question I’d like your opinion on.

    I have never really followed the draft, but it seems like this year a large percentage of Yankee picks were from New York (upstate/downstate). Has this always been the case? Or otherwise, it is a fluke or an actual change in Yankee scouting and approach?

  63. SJ44 June 10th, 2010 at 10:01 am

    The Red Sox organizational philosophy, and this stems from Henry and Lucchino on down, is to promote two agendas:

    1. Always be considered the “little engine that could”, even though they are a big market team. The whole “quaintness of Fenway” the traditional New England fan base, all of that plays into their marketing narrative.

    2. They want to be considered “ahead of the curve” when it comes to the business of baseball. That’s why they hired Bill James. That’s why they have BA and BP on their speed dials, and that’s why they leak info like a sieve. That’s just how they choose to run their business.

    The Yankees are different. When the owner says the annual mandate is to, “win the World Series every year”, its not about being touchy/feely.

    They have no interest being thought of highly by BA and BP if it means giving up information that could help the team win.

    They feel their fan base loves winning more than just reading nice stories about them. So, the focus is on winning.

    Two good organizations who approach running their businesses in different ways.

  64. Erin June 10th, 2010 at 10:02 am

    Erica in NY June 10th, 2010 at 9:56 am

    Am I a bad person for always rooting for the Coyote?
    I kind of thought Roadrunner had it coming after a while

    **********************************
    No, because then I would be a bad person too. lol

  65. Shame Spencer June 10th, 2010 at 10:03 am

    1) CC is notoriously better in the second half (so is Andy, btw, which if the trend continues could make our starting pitching even more scary)

    2) Great posts regarding the inner workings of BA and the draft

    3) I love when people hate the Yankees more than when people love them

  66. SJ44 June 10th, 2010 at 10:03 am

    Erica,

    More like a fluke than anything else. Just the way it shook out this year.

    The only change in scouting approach is the Yankees have more of them now so they probably are able to cover more areas of the country (and see more players) than they did say, 3-4 years ago.

  67. vinny-b (Brett Gardner will never see the bench again) June 10th, 2010 at 10:04 am

    excellent convo, today

  68. Erica in NY June 10th, 2010 at 10:05 am

    SJ44 June 10th, 2010 at 10:03 am
    Erica,

    More like a fluke than anything else. Just the way it shook out this year.

    The only change in scouting approach is the Yankees have more of them now so they probably are able to cover more areas of the country (and see more players) than they did say, 3-4 years ago.
    ************

    I figured as much.

    I was just wondering if the Yankees thought they would have a better chance of signing picks at lower prices if they went for local boys who probably grew up rooting for the team (like Cito Culver)

  69. jpb1973 June 10th, 2010 at 10:06 am

    $160M+ to beat the Orioles

    good investment

    ———————————————————————————–

    Without CC Sabathia, the Yankees don’t win the World Series last year. That alone is worth at least $50 million.

  70. Betsy - Hughes rules (Pleading the Fifth) June 10th, 2010 at 10:07 am

    Erica, I liked Wile E. Coyote, too – and Sylvester (I HATED Tweety Bird) and Daffy Duck, lol. I liked all the villains,lol.

    When I went to a dude ranch in Colorado a few years ago, I stayed in this cabin. One night I lost my jacket and, instead of waiting until morning to go look for it, I decided to creep back to the main lodge and search for it then and there. Well, it was pitch black and I didn’t bring a flashlight, so I was walking very slowly back to the main lodge – and getting a bit nervous because the coyotes were howling and the ranch dogs were barking, both egging each other on, lol. The jacket was not in the lodge and I decided to hurry back to my cabin……but I sort of got lost (and the howling was ongoing and STILL making me nervous. I saw a car and followed the headlights – it turned out to be the wrangler’s wife (the guy that handles the horses is the wrangler) and she brought me back to my cabin……..where I saw the jacket I thought I’d lost lying over a chair, lol. That pretty much sums up my life. If I had taken a second to look, I would have seen that jacket before I left- or, maybe I did, and I just didn’t notice it despite it being right in front of me. Not that the coyotes were ANY threat, but still – I was glad to get back inside.

  71. MTU (aka GBURL) June 10th, 2010 at 10:07 am

    SAS-

    You are way too kind. I am a rank amateur and I give all the credit to
    Mother Nature.

    Will do. Would you like the full collection of just those I posted ?

    And you have to promise that I get to see at least a picture of one of those paintings.

    Check out a guy named Rassmusen if you want to to just fall over dead from beauty. :)

  72. Betsy - Hughes rules (Pleading the Fifth) June 10th, 2010 at 10:10 am

    I guess I like the Yankees’ approach better, but the Sox trying to paint themselves as the little engine that could is sickening.

    Well, in terms of the farm- the Sox have had Lester, Buchholz, Youkilis………..? I’m sure I’m missing someone. They have done a great job drafting the stars. The Yanks (I’m not counting the core – they were drafting eons ago) don’t quite have the star power the Sox have, but Robertson, Cervelli, Pena and Joba have all contributed quite well. The Sox have the edge on starters as they now have 2 26 year olds (well, Clay will be turning that age in August) who are terrific (and Lester is more than that) whereas the Yanks just have Phil for now.

  73. Erin June 10th, 2010 at 10:11 am

    MTU (aka GBURL) June 10th, 2010 at 10:00 am
    Erin-

    We?ve got em? both out here.

    They are good friends.

    ***************************
    really?

    next thing you’ll tell me is your cat is friends with your bird ;)

  74. CB June 10th, 2010 at 10:11 am

    “Get back to me in three years and we will have a much clearer idea of who are the “winners” and “losers” in this draft.”

    SJ-

    As you well know, the seminal event where the media went into overdrive about the red sox and their svengali like abilities to draft talent was the much lauded 2005 draft.

    I don’t know how many times the 2005 draft for the Sox has been held up as a model for excellence – especially by gammons. I’ve heard it described as “historic” frequently.

    On the flip side, the yankees 2005 draft has largely been stamped by CJ Henry not working out.

    But of course all of that was instantaneous, snap shot reactions.

    So 5 years out – let’s take a look at who the two teams drafted.

    In 2005 the sox took Jacoby Ellsbury, Craig Hansen, Clay Buchholz, Jed Lowerie and Michael Bowden with their first five picks.

    Now that is a very productive draft. That said – is it truly great or historic? Well back in 2006-2007 when everyone was in a rush to judgement “great” was thrown around a lot because people were trying to convince the world that Craig Hansen was going to change the face of how drafts were run. It was a whole new genius strategy – you draft a hard throwing closer and he’s so good he’s going to be wildly successful immediately for your team. He was clearly on his way to being one of the great relief pitchers in the game.

    Ellsbury after that short sample of success in 2007 – especially in the Series – was a future pernennial all star.

    Jed Lowerie was clearly going to anchor SS for the Sox for a generation. Bowden was had huge upside and was a fast mover through the system.

    5 years later how “great” do these players look? Hansen was a huge bust. Bowden is absolutely nothing special – so much so that when the Sox need pitching help they don’t even turn to him. Ellsbury showed that the power he demonstarted in the 2007 series wasn’t going to last once pitchers adjusted. He’s a nice player but not even close to an all star. And now all of a sudden with the rib injuries it looks like Boston is souring on him in a big way, questioning his toughness. And he’s been moved off of CF – an as a left fielder his production is marginal at best. He doesn’t look close to being the 15 year anchor he was assumed to be.

    The only guy from that draft who looks good is Buchholz – and even he’s had his struggles. Now don’t get me wrong – if you draft a Buchholz and Ellbury in one draft that’s a terrific draft because the success rate for drafting players is so low.

    But it’s not even close to as good as what it was assumed to be in the short term reactions. Not even remotely as successful. It looks like the Sox got one top notch guy in buchholz and a guy who could be a decent regular in ellsbury.

    The yankees draft in 2005 for several years looked like a “bust” and was exemplified by Henry.

    But who else did they pick that year – two players who were relatively slow to develop. Austin Jackson and Brett Gardner.

    For years that draft as panned. But that was because people were judging it too early. 5 years later it looks like a very good draft because of the way Jackson and Gardner developed over the past two years rather than their first 2.

    So out of the draft the sox 5 years later got Buchholz and Ellsbury. The yankees got Jackson and Gardner. The Sox may have done better but it wasn’t close to the historically great triumph it’s been made to be.

    And of course the yankees 2006 draft went on to be orders of magnitude more productive than the sox 2006 draft was.

  75. Patrick June 10th, 2010 at 10:13 am

    Erica, I just sent out an email to the league but I’m not sure it went through. did you get anything?

  76. Patrick June 10th, 2010 at 10:15 am

    CB,

    Nice posts, I love reading your perspective on things.

  77. MTU (aka GBURL) June 10th, 2010 at 10:15 am

    Erin-

    “next thing you’ll tell me is your cat is friends with your bird”

    I phrased it badly but what I meant is that I have seen them both in my travels and they have been my companions many times.

    I should learn to communicate better. Sorry. :(

  78. SJ44 June 10th, 2010 at 10:16 am

    CB,

    When you consider the Yankees turned Jackson into Granderson, one could argue they made out better than the Sox.

    Betsy,

    The bottom line is wins and losses at the major league level. Nobody gives trophies for farm system hype.

    The Yankees don’t win the World Series last year without the contributions from homegrown guys.

    They don’t all have to be starters and frontline players.

    You spend too much time worrying about what the media writes about the Yankees and Red Sox. Its a waste of valuable energy.

  79. Erica in NY June 10th, 2010 at 10:16 am

    Patrick June 10th, 2010 at 10:13 am
    Erica, I just sent out an email to the league but I?m not sure it went through. did you get anything?
    *********

    Yes, I got it. Thank you. This whole incident is a little absurd. But lets keep it in the league. I don’t want to be accused of sullying people’s reputations :-)

  80. Erica in NY June 10th, 2010 at 10:17 am

    Betsy-

    Thats a pretty funny story.

    I know what you mean though. This morning I gave myself a heart attack because my iPod had disappeared from my purse. I was convinced I lost it somehow. Turns out, it never made it home last night and I left it on my desk at work

  81. MTU (aka GBURL) June 10th, 2010 at 10:18 am

    CB-

    It appears we have hit a “hot button” issue with you when it comes to comparing the organizational prowess of the Yankees vs. the Sox ?

    Whatever it takes to see more of your commentary is fine by me. :)

  82. Erin June 10th, 2010 at 10:19 am

    MTU (aka GBURL) June 10th, 2010 at 10:15 am

    I should learn to communicate better. Sorry.

    **************************
    MTU-no need to apologize whatsoever. I was just joking (obviously not very well). LOL :)

  83. Patrick June 10th, 2010 at 10:19 am

    Erica,

    No not at all, the last thing I want is for anything to derail the blog, I was just making sure you all got my email and this was the only place I could ask since I don’t have your email.

  84. Betsy - Hughes rules (Pleading the Fifth) June 10th, 2010 at 10:20 am

    Clearly that wasn’t an historic draft by the Sox, but if they got an ace pitcher out if it, it’s a GREAT draft.

    I won’t judge the 2005 draft for the Yankees, but it doesn’t look great; I’m just not convinced about Gardner and obviously Jackson got us Granderson. If Curtis performs very well during his stint here, then that will look better – although the Yankees had better hope that Slade Heathcott turns out well for them as a future CF.

  85. Erica in NY June 10th, 2010 at 10:21 am

    Patrick-

    I definitely did. And I appreciated it. I really do feel terrible about this whole uproar

  86. SJ44 June 10th, 2010 at 10:21 am

    For Nick in SF…..

    His daily Austin Jackson update…..

    Austin was 1-4 last night. In June, he’s hitting .243 with 7 K’s in 8 games.

    In his last 26 games, he’s hitting .247 with a .606 OPS.

    No wonder why “Austin Jackson” has been MIA here the past week.

  87. CountryClub June 10th, 2010 at 10:21 am

    Lester and Youk werent drafted by Theo. So if you wont give Cash credit for the core (and you shouldnt), then you cant give Theo credit for Lester and Youk.

    Plus you have to include international FA’s when you look at player development. That adds Cano and Wang.

    As i said yesterday, and others have been saying today, the difference in farm systems is minimal. Yet BA ranked the Sox 5th this yr and the Yanks 26th. The reasons for the disconnect have been clearly stated by SJ and CB.

  88. blake June 10th, 2010 at 10:22 am

    I’m afraid Steven Strasburgmania may make things worse regarding the media’s assumptions that these prospects should make instant impacts with their big league club.

    Guys like that are literally 1 in a million.

  89. Betsy - Hughes rules (Pleading the Fifth) June 10th, 2010 at 10:22 am

    Erica, I do that kind of thing all the time, lol – I’m just sort of clueless. I get a kick out of it though because I end up having funny stories to tell. I did this thing on the LIE once……..nah, I’ll keep you in suspense!

    SJ, to misquote Mark Twain, you could never go broke underestimating just how much I worry about everything.

  90. upstate kate June 10th, 2010 at 10:23 am

    I would throw out there that while the red sox may try to portray themselves as a small market team, in many places they are regarded as “Yankees light” w/o the classiness of the Yankees.

    you hear a lot of former Yankee players compliment the Yankee way of treating players (Morgan Ensburg, Shelly Duncan come to mind). Former red sox players, not so much.

  91. SAS June 10th, 2010 at 10:23 am

    MTU,

    If it is easier to send them all that is fine. The social pictures I really don’t need. Thanks for the name Rasmussen. I just have to find it when I have a minute. I have to get out of here now.

    Again, my thanks.

  92. SJ44 June 10th, 2010 at 10:25 am

    How is the 2005 draft not “great” for the Yankees but is for the Red Sox? Because they got ONE player out of it?

    Brett Gardner is one of the leading hitters in the league this year. He is in the Top 3 in runs scored and SB’s.

    What more do you want from the guy?

    The problem is, you overhype everything when it comes to other teams because of what you read. Yet, are “not sold” on almost every Yankee except Phil Hughes.

    Betsy.

    Curtis Granderson is an All Star Calibur CF who is under 30 years old.

    In other words, he is better than any player from the 2005 draft.

    The Yankees got him for a guy they took in the 2005 draft.

    Under any analysis, that’s a good deal.

  93. NYY626 June 10th, 2010 at 10:25 am

    When comparing the yankees to the red sox, only one thing matters, 27-7. Enough said ;)

  94. SAS June 10th, 2010 at 10:26 am

    Upstate Kate,

    For as long as I can remember under Steinbrenner, all former Yankees worth anything were offered jobs or helped out by George. He was always wonderful to former players. I don’t have any idea if other owners do the same.

  95. ron June 10th, 2010 at 10:27 am

    CB

    Great stuff.

  96. Erin June 10th, 2010 at 10:30 am

    Yankees RT @MLBNetworkRadio: Brett Gardner, #Yankees Outfielder, joins Power Alley at 11:35am Eastern/8:35am Pacific #XM

  97. SJ44 June 10th, 2010 at 10:31 am

    I also think one of the problems many fans have is what a farm system is used for by a big market team.

    Its not just to stock the parent club with homegrown players.

    Its to develop as many guys as possible and use some of them to make trades to augment the parent club’s roster.

    When you have the money the Yankees possess, that’s the way to intelligently run your team.

    If you have a chance to get a Javy Vazquez, you do it despite giving up Arodys Vizcaino. Mainly because, they have Jose Ramirez in the system (who they feel is as good or better than Vizcaino) and they have the money to add another Vizcaino-like talent when they sign IFA’s this year or next year.

    A lot of teams can’t afford to do that. The A’s paid Inoa a ton of money a couple of years ago.

    He got hurt, isn’t pitching and the A’s can go out and spend that kind of money on another player until they see if the kid can recover.

    The Yankees don’t have that problem.

    They also aren’t going to ever have an all homegrown roster. No team does. At least those that win.

    They have players in the system now who are very talented. Yet, have no future in the Bronx because of the players in front of them on the parent roster.

    Those players will be dealt for upgrades at the major league level at some point.

    That’s the proper way to run a farm system as a big market team.

  98. CB June 10th, 2010 at 10:32 am

    “It appears we have hit a “hot button” issue with you when it comes to comparing the organizational prowess of the Yankees vs. the Sox ?”

    MTU-

    My primary issue really isn’t the Sox vs. the Yankees in this.

    My issue is the perception and knee jerk over reactions so many Yankee fans had to the yankees draft.

    Yankee fans all over were annoyed to enraged that the yankees draft board didn’t follow the baseball america top 200.

    That’s ridiculous. Its crazy to think an organization like the yankees should follow the recommendations of a tiny business like Baseball America.

    I mostly commenting on why that divergence likely developed. To me it’s largely an information issue and the rush to make short term judgments on long term issues.

  99. Patrick June 10th, 2010 at 10:33 am

    new post…

  100. Betsy - Hughes rules (Pleading the Fifth) June 10th, 2010 at 10:34 am

    SJ, are you telling me that you are sold on Gardner as a solid, everyday player after 1 half-season? I respect your opinion, but half a season doesn’t tell me anything. Aren’t you now pointing out how Jackson is coming back down to earth? I’d like to see more from Gardner, that’s all. Also, I loved the Granderson trade, but I’m just saying he’s probably going to be here for only a few years; after that we will need a CF. The Yankees presumably got rid of Jackson for (a) a few years of a better player and (b) because they love Heathcott.

    My point was that if the Sox got an ace out of that draft, how is it not a great draft? Mind you, I’m not saying Buchholz is an ace now, but he’s obviously very good and could be a #1 type. As you’ve said that these types of pitchers don’t grow on trees, then I’m surprised you wouldn’t consider that a great draft IF Buchholz develops further.

    You should know by now that I am not as sold on Phil as you think.

    .

  101. Erin June 10th, 2010 at 10:34 am

    New Post: Still turning the corner

  102. Erica in NY June 10th, 2010 at 10:37 am

    :arrow:

  103. CB June 10th, 2010 at 10:37 am

    “Brett Gardner is one of the leading hitters in the league this year. He is in the Top 3 in runs scored and SB’s.”

    Another example of how delayed value is generated in a baseball draft.

    Say the yankees decide that they can afford to devote resources to signing Cliff Lee this winter to augment the staff rather than signing Carl Crawford because they have a cheap cost controlled LF in Gardner?

    How much more does his value increase due to the opportunity cost he affords them?

    6 years later and the 2005 draft’s value comes more in to focus. There’s no way to judge drafts quickly.

  104. JCPD..... June 10th, 2010 at 10:38 am

    $160M+ to beat the Orioles

    True, but it sure beats the 81+ million investment the Orioles make to play .270 baseball

  105. RayVT June 10th, 2010 at 10:39 am

    Betsy – Hughes rules (Pleading the Fifth) June 10th, 2010 at 10:07 am

    Most people feel that way Betsy. It takes some confidence to take the step forward anyway and believe everything will be okay even if what you do is wrong. It is kind of like nerves in baseball. All players are nervous. All! Some players use those nerves as an advantage to prepare harder to gain confidence. Some try to overcome their nerves (fears) by achievements and use those to parlay more success. Some never quite get over the hump and believe they are the only ones that are nervous. That is the hardest group to work with.

    In a short story I can show you what I mean. I coached a Little League team and I had a player called Bugs who was very good for his age (9) when most others were 11 or 12, but he was so nervous in games that he had played all season w/o a hit. (All Strikeouts BTW) He was pretty good in practice though so I knew he had potential. I told him a story about a lucky penney & told him to put it in his back pocket & to rub it before he batted for good luck. Well as fate would have it he came to bat in top of the last inning with 2 runners on & 2 outs & we were behind by 1 run. 1st pitch he swung and missed by a mile. Then he seemed to pause, stepping out of the box he reached back and rubbed the penny almost pulling his pants down. He stepped in the box and ripped the next pitch off the CF fence driving in 2 runs. We ended up winning that game as next 3 batters hit HR too and everyone was so excited for Bugs!

  106. champ809 June 10th, 2010 at 10:49 am

    I’ve been making this point on here for 2 years now that the national media outlets have an anti-Yanks pro-Sox bias that shows up when they evaluate and rate each teams players,farm sytems offseason moves etc.

    In my opinion the Yanks have a much much deeper farm system that is teeming with more high end talent and we’ve also done a much better job of developing and graduating impact talent to both our rosters and around the league. i.e. Cano,Hughes,Joba,Gardner as well as IPK AJax etc.

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