Still turning the corner
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jun 10, 2010 
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Last night, Mark Teixeira got a hit without swinging the bat.
The game was over and the Yankees were back in the clubhouse when the official scorer in Baltimore changed an E-4 to a single, giving Teixeira a second hit in the game and a 2-for-5 night.
For almost anyone else, a scoring change wouldn’t even be a footnote, but Teixeira is trying to get going again, and little victories matter.
Believe it or not — and you probably will believe it — Teixeira’s current .224 average is his highest of the season, the same as on May 17 when his stats were boosted by a terrific two and a half weeks that included three straight multi-hit games.
“I thought he stayed on the ball longer, and I think he was trying to use the middle of the field,” Joe Girardi said. “His approach was very good (Tuesday), and we’ll just try to build on it.”
wasnt tex up to .230 at some point?
Curtis Granderson is an All Star Calibur CF who is under 30 years old.
In other words, he is better than any player from the 2005 draft.
—
Actually the 2005 draft was pretty stacked. In the first round alone: Justin Upton, Ryan Braun, Ryan Zimmerman, Troy Tulowitzki, Ricky Romero, Mike Pelfrey, Andrew McCutchen, Jay Bruce, Matt Garza, Chris Volstad, Colby Rasmus.
I would definitely take some of those guys over Curtis Granderson. Although your point still stands, Granderson + Gardner is a nice haul for one draft.
Erin June 10th, 2010 at 10:30 am
Yankees RT @MLBNetworkRadio: Brett Gardner, #Yankees Outfielder, joins Power Alley at 11:35am Eastern/8:35am Pacific #XM
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He better not be thumb wrestling!!!
(repost):
“Brett Gardner is one of the leading hitters in the league this year. He is in the Top 3 in runs scored and SB’s.”
Another example of how delayed value is generated in a baseball draft.
Say the yankees decide that they can afford to devote resources to signing Cliff Lee this winter to augment the staff rather than signing Carl Crawford because they have a cheap cost controlled LF in Gardner?
How much more does his value increase due to the opportunity cost he affords them?
6 years later and the 2005 draft’s value comes more in to focus. There’s no way to judge drafts quickly.
ac1 – no he was at .224 may 16/17
Betsy – Hughes rules (Pleading the Fifth) June 10th, 2010 at 10:07 am
Most people feel that way Betsy. It takes some confidence to take the step forward anyway and believe everything will be okay even if what you do is wrong. It is kind of like nerves in baseball. All players are nervous. All! Some players use those nerves as an advantage to prepare harder to gain confidence. Some try to overcome their nerves (fears) by achievements and use those to parlay more success. Some never quite get over the hump and believe they are the only ones that are nervous. That is the hardest group to work with.
In a short story I can show you what I mean. I coached a Little League team and I had a player called Bugs who was very good for his age (9) when most others were 11 or 12, but he was so nervous in games that he had played all season w/o a hit. (All Strikeouts BTW) He was pretty good in practice though so I knew he had potential. I told him a story about a lucky penney & told him to put it in his back pocket & to rub it before he batted for good luck. Well as fate would have it he came to bat in top of the last inning with 2 runners on & 2 outs & we were behind by 1 run. 1st pitch he swung and missed by a mile. Then he seemed to pause, stepping out of the box he reached back and rubbed the penny almost pulling his pants down. He stepped in the box and ripped the next pitch off the CF fence driving in 2 runs. We ended up winning that game as next 3 batters hit HR too and everyone was so excited for Bugs!
Erica in NY June 10th, 2010 at 10:37 am
Erin June 10th, 2010 at 10:30 am
Yankees RT @MLBNetworkRadio: Brett Gardner, #Yankees Outfielder, joins Power Alley at 11:35am Eastern/8:35am Pacific #XM
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He better not be thumb wrestling!!!
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LOL
A lot of us downplayed what Austin Jackson was doing because he couldnt maintain the amount of hits he was getting off of balls in play. he was extremely lucky during the 1st month of the season. That’s why we were trying to temper people’s outrage. it wasnt that we dont think he’s going to be a solid player, it was that he was suddenly outperforming what his prior results said he would be.
What Gardner has done this yr (and most of last yr until he got hurt) is right in line with what he’s done every step of the way in the minors. we can still expect a bit of regression, but he’s a very good defender that will hit .270 – .300 with a .350 – .380 OBP. that’s a very valuable player.
Wasn’t someone in here talking about the Vazquez trade just a little bit ago? I was curious so I just looked up Vizcaino’s stats.
So he began the year in A-ball (after spending last year in short season ball). So far he has 12 starts and 69.1 innings, he’s 9-3 with a 2.34 ERA, 66 K’s and only 9 walks. His WHIP is also very slightly under 1.0.
He’s also 19 years old.
I know stats in low-A mean next to nothing but it says something that a 19 year old is dominating the league. He’s still a long way off but it will really hurt if Arodys turns out to be a great pitcher.
i’ll admit it. gardner surpassed my expectations already.
CountryClub June 10th, 2010 at 10:44 am
A lot of us downplayed what Austin Jackson was doing because he couldnt maintain the amount of hits he was getting off of balls in play. he was extremely lucky during the 1st month of the season. That?s why we were trying to temper people?s outrage. it wasnt that we dont think he?s going to be a solid player, it was that he was suddenly outperforming what his prior results said he would be.
*************
The thing that I thought was quite striking though about the first month was his extremely high strike out rate. At one point I think it was over 35%. There is nothing redeeming about a strike out. You are not putting the ball in play at all
His K rate is a little better now. He has 64Ks in 237 ABs with is 27% of the time
I like when our former prospects do well for other teams. To me, it supports what a good farm system the Yankees have. I am happy that AJax and IPK are playing well for their new teams. A trade should benefit all parties involved. And I am so happy that we got Granderson out of the deal.
Austin Jacksons strikeouts were quite striking indeed
Erica,
Unfortunately for AJ, strikeouts have been a problem for him all the way up the line.
Ray, are you referring to a something I said this morning? I’m sorry, I’m not sure what you’re referring to.
SJ, are you telling me that you are sold on Gardner as a solid, everyday player after 1 half-season? I respect your opinion, but half a season doesn?t tell me anything. Aren?t you now pointing out how Jackson is coming back down to earth? I?d like to see more from Gardner, that?s all. Also, I loved the Granderson trade, but I?m just saying he?s probably going to be here for only a few years; after that we will need a CF. The Yankees presumably got rid of Jackson for (a) a few years of a better player and (b) because they love Heathcott.
My point was that if the Sox got an ace out of that draft, how is it not a great draft? Mind you, I?m not saying Buchholz is an ace now, but he?s obviously very good and could be a #1 type. As you?ve said that these types of pitchers don?t grow on trees, then I?m surprised you wouldn?t consider that a great draft IF Buchholz develops further.
You should know by now that I am not as sold on Phil as you think.
betsy – gardner now has 650 plate appearences, which gives you over 1 full season of data on him.
Betsy,
If his swing stays the same and he stays healthy, there isn’t any reason not to think he is the player he is right now.
Its in line with how he performed at the minor league level and I don’t think his legs or defense is going to fail him anytime soon.
He’s been one of the best players in the AL so far this year. Actually, he’s been a better all around player than Austin Jackson.
He has always been a guy that has improved as he jumped levels in the minors.
So yes, I think this is the kind of player he is as long as he stays healthy and his swing stays as true as its been so far this year.
Clay Buchholz is not an ace. A good pitcher with potential does not an ace make.
Betsy, a few points.
Trading Jackson has nothing to do with Heathcott. They only traded Jackson because they were getting back Granderson – a better player. Heathcott is 3+ years away.
Getting Bucholz and Ellsbury makes the 2005 draft a very good one for the Sox. But getting Gardner and Granderson makes it almost as good or better for the Yanks.
Why do you refer to Bucholz as an ace but say you aren’t sold on Gardner or Hughes? Seems like kind of a pessimistic view that you are expecting Bucholz to be an ace but you’re expecting Gardner and Hughes to play worse as the season goes on.
As CountryClub posted just now, what Gardner has done isn’t by luck. Austin Jackson had tremendous luck in the beginning of the year. Gardner’s BABIP is maybe a bit high but his numbers realy aren’t a mirage.
“You should know by now that I am not as sold on Phil as you think”
“SJ, are you telling me that you are sold on Gardner as a solid, everyday player after 1 half-season?”
Brett Gardner’s CAREER lines are now entirely respectable, considering his tools and major league experience (not yet a full season worth of ABs). And the trend line is off the charts.
Yes, he looked overmatched his first call-up, and yes, he struggled at times last year, but the end result of every major league AB he’s ever had is he’s a productive player.
Add to that his minor league history and a completely reasonable question to ask Betsy is what do you see that you don’t like?
How has a negative opinion become the default?
Betsy:
Why the eternal pessism? I was down on Gardner for a while, but he’s clearly a solid major leaguer. He’ll have a steep and relatively early drop, because most of his value is predicated on speed. But he’s a solid contributor to the organization’s ML level club. It’s unclear what more you’d like to “see” from him. As a nitpick, I don’t think his SB instincts are developed to the point that his speed would allow. But the guy has 21 SB, good contact rates, and is helping his own success with his AB approach. He is also a plus defensive outfielder. A product like Gardner is a tremendous draft development, even if productivity at this level only lasts a couple more seasons.
It’s also incomprehensible that one could be sold on Buchholz but not Hughes. Buchholz is two years older, has a higher WHIP, and his K:BB ratio is less than half as good as Hughes’s.
Wasn’t someone in here talking about the Vazquez trade just a little bit ago? I was curious so I just looked up Vizcaino’s stats.
So he began the year in A-ball (after spending last year in short season ball). So far he has 12 starts and 69.1 innings, he’s 9-3 with a 2.34 ERA, 66 K’s and only 9 walks. His WHIP is also very slightly under 1.0.
He’s also 19 years old.
I know stats in low-A mean next to nothing but it says something that a 19 year old is dominating the league. He’s still a long way off but it will really hurt if Arodys turns out to be a great pitcher.
——–
Manny Banuelos did that stuff last year, and he was 18!
I’m sold on Hughes and Gardner, not necessarily because of what they are doing so far in 2010, but because of the progression I’ve seen from them over the last 2-3 years. Hughes hit rock bottom in 2008 yet he built himself back up, physically, confidence-wise and stuff-wise. He is really good and because of the way he bounced back I’m confident he can overcome any bumps in the road ahead.
Gardner has started slowly at every level and then managed to ” get the hang of it” and become a good player. Just last year he had the habit of hitting those weak popups to the left side seemingly every game. Watching him now he has changed his swing to take advantage of his speed and he is much more productive and consistent. The coachabliity of these guys makes me believe in them.
Manny Banuelos did that stuff last year, and he was 18!
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Well he’s hurt this year, hasn’t pitched yet.
I will admit that I’d not heard about Gardner in the minors – he wasn’t this big name and I don’t really recall that he was on the Yankees radar. I could be wrong, obviously – and I didn’t follow his career in the minors. I would be glad to be wrong about him – and to clarify, I wasn’t implying that I thought he would go on to struggle the rest of the season. I just said that I wanted to see more from him……
Shame, I didn’t say he was an ace now – it’s not possible to become an ace in half a season. If you are referring to my posts re: the Sox 2005 draft, I said that IF he became it ace, it would be a great draft because those types of pitchers don’t grow on trees.
But Clay Buchholz shows no indication of becoming that kind of “ace.” His age, stuff, and peripherals all work against that outcome.
well said NYYROC, that expresses my thoughts exactly. Phil has turned into the pitcher many of us thought he could be, and GGBG has been a pleasant surprise.
IIRC Cashman was speaking highly of Gardner before the start of the 2008 season mentioning him as one of the guys in the minors who could contribute that year.
Betsy, you’re right I missed the ‘if’ in that statement but he’s been pitching in the majors for more than half a season at this point. I think Lester could be considered and ace but not Buchholz. I’m obviously no expert and this is just my opinion but Buchholz won’t ever be an ace.
The good news on Banuelos is that his time away this yr is due to an appendectomy. Nothing wrong with his arm.
Betsy
Yes your story about going off looking for your coat as summing up things.
Betsy,
Gardner has definitely been on the radar for awhile. Of course many Yankee fans overhyped him (although with the way he’s playing, maybe the hype was justified?). Anyways, most people expected him to be a major league regular for an average or poor team and a fourth outfielder for a good team. However, his major league numbers are right in line with what he did in the minors. High average, high OBP, minimal power.
Thanks Upstate Kate, I think both Hughes and Gardner will continue to improve. In Hughes case it isn’t just a matter of throwing harder or coming up with a new pitch, the kind of things most fans look at. It is the subtle things like getting more movement on pitches, learning to make in game adjustments better, learning how to put hitters away more quickly to minimize pitch count, just learning the hitters better and learning how to set them up better. All that comes with experience and the desire to learn. From what I’ve read Hughes loves to talk pitching and is eager to learn.
For GGBG, his swing is new to him and the more he works at it the better he’ll get with it. He’ll learn pitchers better and I’m still hoping he’ll bunt more (!)
The good news on Banuelos is that his time away this yr is due to an appendectomy. Nothing wrong with his arm.
—
Indeed. I guess the point I should have made is that Banuelos has nothing to do with Vizcaino. Arodys took a big step this year, getting into full season ball and dominating.
patrick – gardners babip is allowed to be in the .340 to .360 range because of his speed(beating out infield hits), so he’s not even really that far “over” his career .324 babip
Found it,
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200.....questions/
Sanjay asked: Can you name the minor league position player who you believe will make an impact with the Yankees this year? Anybody in particular who has caught your eye?
Brian Cashman: “Brett Gardner.”
Patrick, I’m just saying the Yankees need to have a plan for after Granderson leaves; I know they didn’t make the deal with Heathcott in mind.
I never said Buchholz was an ace – if I did, then I apologize as that’s not what I meant. I meant that he’s pitching like one now and IF he becomes an ace, then the draft for the Sox is much better.
Buchholz and Hughes aren’t at the same stage of development; clearly the former has a lot more experience starting. I would not expect him to get fatigued as the year goes on. I’m not saying he will keep this up, but what I’m saying re: Hughes is that this is his first full year starting and it’s not hard to imagine him feeling fatigue as the year goes on. Is that really so outrageous? Like other young pitchers have never experienced that? We still have to see how he adjusts to teams seeing him more than once- we’ve seen him struggle with the Sox and O’s after they did that. That’s not a negative on Hughes – he’ll get it down eventually.
John, I know what Hughes’ and Buchholz’ respective #s are right now. When I said I wasn’t as sold on Hughes as SJ thought, I meant in terms of potential. Of course Phil is going to be a good pitcher, but whether that’s a #1, #2 or #3 remains to be seen. I admit (and I’m not sure why I feel this way now as I’ve never been a big velocity person) that I’m a bit disappointed that he only throws 92 MPH. I can’t see how he is a power pitcher at that velocity. When he was throwing 94 MPH earlier this year with incredible command, that kid looked like a future ace. I remember the comments on this board with regards to his ability to change eye levels, use both sides of the plate, etc… Doing all that and throwing hard is a big deal, but that’s not what’s going on now. I’m almost hesitant to say all this because I know the reaction is not going to be pretty (meaning, I expect to be attacked. I’m absolutely ok with debate and with people disagreeing with me – let me make that clear – but if this devolves into a ” you’re stupid and know nothing about baseball” argument, then there’s nothing left to discuss).
The issue with Gardner up to this year was that his swing was bad and his approach didn’t line up with his skill set.
But that’s changed. Gardner’s retooled his swing and his approach and now they really serve to leverage his great speed tools.
Gardner’s biggest issue at the plate last year was that his strange swing – which was almost like a slice back hand swing in tennis produced too many balls in the air.
In particular – that swing made him pop the ball up in the infield a ridiculous number of times.
But he’s concretely changed his swing mechanics and approach. He has much more of an opposite field slap swing that is geared to put the ball on the ground. That has allowed him to use his wheels. Just think about how many hits he’s gotten on ground balls to the infield. That’s not purely “luck” – it’s his speed skills coming to the fore.
Early this season there was clearly reason to be cautious. One of the big reasons why Gardner was doing so well early on was that he was striking out very infrequently. Part of that was the change in his approach. But part of that was due to small sample size issues. For a while, Gardner was striking out at a rate that was far lower than his best strike out rate as a minor leaguer. That wasn’t likely to last. A big question was what would happen to his production if that strike out rate normalized back to expectations?
And we’ve found out. Gardner last year struck out 16% of the time. Early in the year during that hot start he was striking out around 11% of the time. Around there, IIRC.
Gardner this season is now striking out 16% of the time. So his success now is not due to him striking out at a rate that was unlikely to be sustained over time.
The second big challenge for Gardner came when pitchers adjusted and started pitching him inside so that he couldn’t hit the ball on the ground to the left side. He can beat out balls deep to the SS hole easily so pitchers don’t want to let him hit the ball to the left side. But Gardner then demonstrated the quick hands needed to turn on pitches inside and drive them. That’s just huge. It really makes him a solid hitter.
The single biggest reason he is doing so much better now than last season is that slap swing to put the ball on the ground. Gardner is the living embodiment of a lot of what Charlie Lau was about.
Last season Brett Gardner hit pop ups to the infield 15% of the time when he made contact. That was one of the highest rates in all of baseball. That’s just horrible – those are all useless outs because they don’t even give him a chance to use his legs.
This season he his hitting pop ups to the infield only 4% of the time. That is an amazing change. And it’s not accidental – that’s what makes you feel good about it. It’s due to his swing mechanics.
Overall between pop ups and fly balls last year Gardner was at 48%. So on nearly half of his contact made last year his speed didn’t factor in. This year it’s only 34% of the time.
That’s a remarkable difference in how he hits. And it all starts with that swing.
And putting the ball on the ground is why he’s got a BABIP of .358. And .358 is sustainable for him as long as the ball goes on the ground.
And ultimately that’s why he’s hitting .314. and been able to get on base at close to a .400 clip.
John, obviously Phil is almost 2 years younger, but Clay is not old. Perhaps I’m getting too caught up in velocity – I concede that’s a possibility.
Irreverent Discourse,
Yeah thats why I said his BABIP is “maybe a bit high”
Ichiro’s career BABIP is .358 so maybe Gardner can match that but I expect he’ll be a bit lower as the years go on.
Patrick, thanks for the info on Brett!
Ray, oh,lol. I’m sorry – I guess I had my head in the clouds this morning. That’s a great story – and what a great thing for the kid. Confidence is so important- that’s the big thing I take from Jeter. He is the most confident athlete I’ve ever seen; nothing phases him. He has an absolute, rock solid belief in himself – it’s remarkable, really. I wish I had that, lol.
Is Banuelos expected to pitch soon? It’s a shame that he’s missed almost half the year………
“the Yankees need to have a plan for after Granderson leaves”
He’s 29 years old. Is he retiring anytime soon?
Brett Gardner is looking more and more like anothe Brett: Brett Butler.
Another win last night. By any means necessary.
C.C. was clutch when the o’s had runners on.
Cano staying hot with 3 more hits.
Cervelli with a clutch 2 out RBI single for insurance.
Russo had a terrific diving catch to prevent an extra base hit.
Yankees must beat the team they are supposed to beat. So far, so good.
CB, fantastic explanation about Brett and why his success is not flukish; when I look at it that way, then I have to be fairly confident. Hopefully his thumb is ok.
Betsy caught up in what velocity? Phil’s velocity is fine right now. Bucholz’s is the same it’s been.
By the way from that 2005 draft they traded Henry for Abreu. Also, they drafted Doug Fister, the Mariners pitcher, but were unable to sign him.
You know Betsy, I’m actually happy Phil is throwing around that speed. I could be totally wrong, but I feel like the fact that he’s getting good results with that velocity speaks to the movement on his pitches. It also may mean he isnt putting as much stress on his arm as pitchers that really crank it up. It will also force him to be a smarter pitcher. Maybe his velocity will be beneficial?
There is zero need to throw harder than 90mph when you have control of breaking pitches.
I think as fans, it is exciting to watch power pitchers blow batters away. That is why Joba became so popular so quickly when he was first called up. That is why a Strasburg is so hyped. However, high velocity does not necessarily make a pitcher an ace. Lets not forget the years when CMW was the Yankee ace, and he certainly was not a power pitcher.
Betsy,
Phil’s 92-94mph fastball is better than Bucholz’s 94-96mph, I mean movement and location are what matters most not speed.
A.J. starting tonight. Which A.J. will show up? Let’s hope A.J. can dominate the o’s hitters with his fastball and breaking ball.
I’d like to imagine A.J. learned how to get the o’s out by watching Hughes and C.C. the previous 2 games.
WTP – The same AJ that always shows up. The AJ that throws a great game and gets beat on 3 bad pitches. Luckily Baltimore is likely to miss those 3 pitches.
CB-
Speaking of using potential tools.
Why do you think GGBG doesn’t try to bunt for hits more often ?
He is puported to be an excellent bunter.
Do you not think that would help him in several other ways ?
Or do you think his game is fine as it is ?
Betsy, I wouldn’t be too worried about velocity. As you can see from watching the games Hughes blows the ball by hitters all the time. Even in the Baltimore game the other night, when he didn’t have great stuff, he dialed it up to 94-95 when he needed it. Someone on here a couple of weeks ago posted the avg FB speed of pitchers up to that point in the season and IIRC Hughes was at 92.4 just .1 less than Doc and easily in the top 10. Phil gets people out with his FB due to combination of velocity, movement and location.
But Betsy, Phil’s average fastball velocity, 92.8, is 17th in the majors (including relievers). He’s in the top half dozen starters.
And he’s 6th in the AL in K/9, with a lower walk rate than three of the guys ahead of him, Morrow, Lester and Romero, and a comparable BB rate to Liriano.
I’m not clear on what a power pitcher is if he’s not one.
mtu – watch the 3B when he’s up, they are pulled in on the corners very often when Gardner is batting.
Gardner’s turning into a very valuable player for the Yanks. As CB pointed out, his speed will give him a hi babip as long as he keeps it on the ground. The one thing it would really behoove to do, is take control of his bunting like he has taken control of his swing. With his ability to fly down to first, he’s losing 10 or 12 hits a year without that weapon at his disposal. Btw, he’s very obviously a hard working guy, and I think he will make bunting part of his game. He also needs to refine his game on the basepaths, but that will come. He’s had to really work at everything with the Yanks, they haven’t given him anything. Platooning him with Melky. Signing Winn as they did. But Gardner chased the both out of town. He’s very much like Earl Combs, the Kentucky Colonel, who was always on base for Ruth and Gehrig and joined them in the Hall of Fame. He has a better arm than Combs did, but they both cover a comprehensive field and get on base and score a lot. I see no reason why we would spend a dollar on Carl Crawford given what Gardy can do.
EDIT: I think Fangraphs wonked out on me. 92.8 can’t be 17th in the majors. But it’s not as though he’s a soft tosser to Buchholz’s (93.6) smoke express.
ID-
I’m sure you have heard of drag bunting ?
Or are you saying they are in at both corners ?
Phil-
GGBG is doing extremely well so far and may even be able to maintain it but I am not sure that the Yankees will pass on cc.
If they believe that GGBG can do this going forward and they invest in Lee then I agree if not I am not as convinced.
KLong deserves a lot of credit for his work with Gardner.
Patrick-
Ichiro’s BABIP is even more impressive than it appears to be at fact value due to the sheer number of balls that he puts into play. The rate stat actually diminishes the aggregate effect in some ways.
Ichiro doesn’t walk much at baseline so a huge proportion of his plate appearances turn into at bats. And on top of that he hardly strikes out.
The sheer number of balls he puts into play is just staggering.
Right now Gardner walks 11% of the time and strikes out around 1% of his plate appearances. Ichiro walks 6% of the time and strikes out 10% of the time.
In many ways Ichiro and Gardner having a BABIP of.358 isn’t an equivalent empirical accomplishment.
It’s just unbelievable how Ichiro can not only sustain such a high BABIP year after year but do so while at the same time putting so many balls in play. That’s just so enormously difficult to do. Think about all of the pitches just off the plate that are technically balls that he swings at and still gets base hits on. But that’s the kind of freakish plate coverage and bat control he has.
And that’s why he not only hits for such a high average but why he racks up so many total hits. The total hits for him are more impressive and indicative of his skill set and talent in many ways than his batting average.
Phil,
Great job breaking down the draft and draft philosophies last night.
It was an excellent read.
“Great job breaking down the draft and draft philosophies last night. ”
Seconded.
CB, Phil,
Great stuff on Gardner..its a real feel good story with. He’s fought uphill his entire career and keeps proving people (me included) wrong. I love it.
Patrick, I guess I thought he threw harder than that, that’s all. It just seems unusual for a kid to have been the #1 pitching prospect in baseball throwing 92; some of the articles I read going back to 2007 or so referenced Phil throwing more like 92-95, not sitting 92.
You know just a few months ago, a lot of people were hand-wringing about the state of the Yankees outfield, remarking how it was such a weakness considering most corner outfielders are middle of the line-up hitters on most teams.
And it’s still early.
Yes, we need to find of if the new Nick Swisher is here to stay.
Yes, Brett Gardner has to doing over a full season.
Yes, Curtis Granderson has to continue to show the signs he’s showing and get back to the Granderson of a couple years ago.
But this outfield has the potential to not only be rock solid, but relatively cost-controlled through 2012.
Yankees might have and could have one of the most efficient outfields in baseball cost-to-production wise for a couple of years, with the level of production being MORE than high enough to accomplish the Yankees goals.
Can’t ask for more than that…
mtu – usually one, if not both corners are pulled in. something tells me if he was skilled at drag bunting (has he ever done it? not that i can recall) he’d be doing it.
Blake-
GGBG is just like a Salmon. One that made it ! I am glad to be wrong about him too.
betsy – velocity is like the last thing in a long line of stuff that determines how good of a pitcher you are.
SJ 44,
Thank you very much. I call it draftscience, and they are refining it every year. You know the talent they’ve brought in and back and the structure they’ve imposed on the process. They’re dern serious about their Yankee huntin’ these days. And why not? The value of a homegrown Yankee is astronomical.
Kate, I’ll just say that I’m not one of those people who gets all giddy about flame throwers- I actually prefer pitchers like Halladay who actually know how to pitch. That said, I never thought of Wang as a real ace, just as a very good pitcher (though not because of velocity, more because when he didn’t have that sinker going, he was eminently hittable).
MTU-
Gardner bunting more would be helpful – particularly if he could drag bunt down first as that is a very difficult play to defense.
But on the whole his success and failure is going to depend on two major issues:
1. The ability to hit the ball on the ground hard, especially to the left side of the diamond
2. The ability to at least on occasion drive inside pitches when hitters try to jam him on the hands in order to keep pitchers honest.
Those are the two major factors that are going to dictate how successful Gardner can be.
If he can do those consistently – as he has this year. He has a good chance to carve out a career like Brett Butler who was a terrific ball player and extremely valuable.
Stuckey,
And that’s important because it helps offset their very high priced infield a bit.
Phil-
Wanted to also chime in – great stuff on the draft last night. Really enjoyed the conversation. Some of the best extended discussion of an issue we’ve had here in a very long time.
ID-
Then he needs to work on learning it.
His speed forces infielder’s to be nearly perfect in their play.
It would just be another weapon, and when he slumps that would level it out a bit for him.
As so many have already said in this thread, fans obsess too much with velocity. I haven’t seen Andy Pettite throwing 95, 96 mph anytime recently yet he’s been one of the best pitchers in the AL this year. Location, location, location…..
CB,
Thanks, and right backatcha. It’s an absolutely fascinating process to observe.
CB-
Thanks. See my response to ID above. It meshes with yours.
Should have been taught to him in the minors but it isn’t too late.
I just went to look at BA
http://www.baseballamerica.com.....nkees.html
to see the Yankee Draft Picks. I noticed that BA had listed the Yankee Top Prospects and saw Brien Taylor, (What a talent), for 1992 & 1993 as a RHP. LOL! He was a LHP. I’m sure that BA did a detailed analysis of all their work!
Betsy – Hughes rules (Pleading the Fifth) June 10th, 2010 at 11:55 am
Kate, I’ll just say that I’m not one of those people who gets all giddy about flame throwers- I actually prefer pitchers like Halladay who actually know how to pitch. That said, I never thought of Wang as a real ace, just as a very good pitcher (though not because of velocity, more because when he didn’t have that sinker going, he was eminently hittable).
_______
Betsy
You don’t need a 94 plus fastball to be an ace or a power pitcher. And Hughes and Wang are different animals. Hughes K/9, BA against, and WHIP show that Hughes is not only pitching like an ace but is pitching like a power pitcher. Hughes is not an ace yet he needs to do it not just for this year but the year after that. Him in Bucholtz are in the same boat but Hughes is younger and has a better chance of being more dominant.
“Wanted to also chime in – great stuff on the draft last night. Really enjoyed the conversation. Some of the best extended discussion of an issue we’ve had here in a very long time.”
enjoy it while it lasts… the NBA Finals resumes tonight. By 10pm or so, his place will be unreadable.
I heard a great interview this morning on XM radio with John Smoltz. He spent some time with Strasburg on the day he pitched and they asked him what he said to him, etc.
But they also got around to just talking about pitching.
It was one of the best interviews I’ve heard. He talked about a few things but one of the things that stuck out was what he had to say about “stuff.” Basically, throw out the radar gun; speed is irrelevant if you can’t hit your spots. He said one of the things that impressed him about Strasburg is that he had master of the four quadrants of the plate that you have to pitch to.
Sometimes they put the interviews up on Facebook. So far it’s not there, but when it is, I’ll try and link to it.
Phil’s velo is going to improve.
NYYRoc, that?s a very good point about Phil being a swing and miss guy and I?ve known that all along. However, when he was throwing harder earlier in the season, he looked much better??..Maybe he?s relative struggles recently have more to do with command issues than velocity issues, I don?t know. I remember that post, though I don?t recall where Phil ranked on that list. John, I believe it?s actually 92.5 and most of that velocity was accumulated early on (I would imagine) when Phil was throwing 93/94 regularly. I guess it?s just hard for me to think of someone as a power pitcher throwing 92, that?s all (and yes, compared to Buchholz? 93.6, 92.5 is a relative soft-tosser, the key word being relative; that?s quite a gap). It?s easier for someone who throws hard to be an ace than someone who doesn?t, that?s my general point ? you can forget about Buchholz if you want since he?s not on the Yankees. I?m just saying that Phil right now is not the same pitcher we saw earlier???..and I?m not sure which version is the real one.
There is a lot more talent in the Yankee farm system than people think.
Its not all going to be guys that end up being frontline players for the Yankees.
David Adams for instance. In some organizations, he would be considered one of their Top 5 prospects. He’s that good of a player.
With Robinson Cano here, he has no future in NY.
What if he is spun off for a guy who ends up having a future in NY?
That’s what I mean when I say the value of a good Yankee farm system can be helpful in a lot of ways at the major league level.
CB, Phil -
I also wanted to chime in and thank you guys for the great analysis you guys have posted today and last night. Much appreciated and very valuable information.
Erica-
Deal go down?
SJ-
You are preaching to the choir on our farm system.
Under rated.
Doreen,
I heard the same interview. It was terrific.
Anybody who watched Kyle Farnsworth here and is still caught up in velocity really needs to relax.
Its called “pitching” and not “throwing” for a reason.
Smoltz is right. Its about hitting all four quandrants with command and consistency.
Strasburg is a freak. He’s a once in a generation arm to be able to have that combination of velocity and command.
Roy Halladay throws 91 MPH and can hit all four quandrants with any of his pitches.
That’s “pitching”.
Phil Hughes doesn’t need any more velocity. He just needs to continue on the track he is on.
Its not about lighting up the radar gun.
Phil-
Even if it just stays exactly where it is does it really matter ?
Velocity is seductive but command and movement are more important.
then of course there are the current set of Freaks that have both-
U-Jim and Strasburg. Ouch !
SJ44
The Yankees got Adams because of their scouting advantage. He had had a down year at UVA (I think they’d changed coaches) and they were encouraging him to try things he was uncomfortable with and he didn’t perform like he had. The Yanks decided that his previous good play was not a fluke and he could go back to being an outstanding hitter, so they popped him in the third and got him squared away. His only problem now is injuries, but he’s going to be a starting 2B for a long time for someone, just not the Yanks.
That was a scouting victory.
Smoltz is great…good on TV also and really knows what he’s talking about.
Phil doesn’t need more velocity. But he’s 6’5″ 240, has solid mechanics and is 23. He’s exactly the kind of pitcher that adds velocity as he move toward and into his prime.
rdog,
thanks!
The “Art” of pitching includes:
Command
Movement
Deception
Disruption of timing
I saw Adams play in college and he was a really good player.
You are correct, he had a bad final year at UVA. However, that kid could really play.
They had another player like that this year in Jarrot Parker. He had a huge soph season last year.
But, really struggled in the Cape and got off to a slow start this year. Scouts got down on him as he was thought to be a Top 10-15 selection.
The Giants ended up taking him in the second round and I think he is going to be a very good CF prospect for them.
Phil-
Just the icing on the cake I guess but if he never ticks up a single notch he has more than enough to get the job done.
Gardner has proven a lot of his critics wrong, and most likely will save the Yankees from spending $15-16M/5-6 years for a Carl Crawford. It’s great that he’s stepped up.
This allows them to focus their resources on more important needs.
“He had had a down year at UVA (I think they’d changed coaches) and they were encouraging him to try things he was uncomfortable with and he didn’t perform like he had. The Yanks decided that his previous good play was not a fluke”
This has become one the the yankees best strategies.
The whole capacity to sign kids that drop to overslot deals in round one was never going to last. Teams just weren’t going to continue to be so short sighted as to stick to slot.
That was one of the stark things we saw in the draft last year. Teams basically ignored the threats for outrageous deals from players and didn’t let them fall very far.
In turn the yankees were going to have to figure out a different approach than the one they used so well in 2006.
And one of the things they’ve done is to target kids whose stock has dropped due to reasons that are potentially transient or create small sample size concerns.
They did something similar with Austin Jackson. Jordan this year is very similar.
That’s something Cashman and Oppenheimer have spoken about a lot – the importance of taking the whole track record into account rather than just their final season.
Teams get off guys too quickly and a lot of that is because they don’t want to expose themselves to financial risk given the dollars involved. Taking those guys is another way the yanks can absorb risk and maximize their advantage.
Phil, are you talking about in a year or two?
Right, and Doc Halladay is a freak as well…… so what do you do if you are not Doc Halladay?
The 10 “best” fastballs in baseball, this season(with avg velocity):
Ubaldo Jimenez – 96.6
Jonathan Sanchez – 90.6
Doug Fister – 88.3
Jeff Niemann – 91.1
Phil Hughes – 92.5
Clayton Richard – 91.2
Tim Hudson – 91.0
Matt Cain – 91.2
C.J. Wilson – 90.5
Cliff Lee – 91.1
Ubaldo and Hughes are the only 2 pitchers on this list in the top 25 in avg fastball velocity.
It looks like the magic number is 90, once you get your fastball over that… you can be the best pitcher in baseball if you can control it.
Phil the Thrill -
I wasn’t around here last night or this morning, so I just got the opportunity to go back and read the conversation from last night.
I have one question for you. Are the Yankees also starting to put more resources into the developmental side of this?
To me, it stands to reason that if you’re going to draft younger with what seems like a specific agenda, you need to be sure that the people you draft are going to be developed a certain way. It can all fall by the wayside if the coaches/support system is a second though.
Thanks for your input.
SI_JonHeyman 2nd opinion on ellsbury ribcage injury reveals bigger issue. he needs at least 2 more weeks rest. #redsox
1 minute ago via mobile web
Apparently watching an all-word mouth in Ozzie Guillen at work has loosened Jake Peavy’s tongue. He has some interesting things to say about the Padres, and his take on their bullpen is worth noting (Heath Bell still a trade candidate even w/the Padres’ success?):
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....ers-060910
While trading for an NL pitcher has inherent risks, I would love to see Cashman try to find a way to swing a trade for him. The Royals aren’t trading Soria w/that club-friendly contract they have in place, so that leaves Bell as the best relief arm to target, imho.
betsy – yes, phil will develop more velocity over the next 2-3 years as his body becomes accustomed to throwing 200+ innings every year. he can throw harder now, don’t think that he can’t… but he can’t throw harder AND pitch 8 innings every time out. as his body adjusts, he’ll be able to throw harder and harder (as long as he can still locate the pitch) with the same amount of effort.
He’s not a freak. There are plenty of good pitchers out there that dont throw 95 MPH.
Johan Santana barely breaks 90 now and he’s effective.
Greg Maddox and Tom Glavine are headed to the HOF and didn’t throw hard.
Jared Weaver and Scott Kazmir win games and they aren’t throwing 95. Neither does Niemann and Shields in Tampa.
The fact is, most pitchers don’t throw 95 MPH as starters with any consistent command.
Even Lincecum is down this year velocity-wise.
You are too consumed with velocity. On the grand scheme of things, its the least important on the pitching scale.
new post of all drafted players
“I have one question for you. Are the Yankees also starting to put more resources into the developmental side of this?”
Within a couple of years, I think the Yankees are getting ready to add another low “A” team, it maybe short league.
Betsy, there has to be SOME part of you that appreciates that your mantra has been Hughes will struggle sometimes this year because of his inexperience, but you’re letting two starts (Boston and Mets) get under your skin.
THAT is what you were mentally preparing yourself for all along..
CB,
Picking where the Yanks usually do, they don’t have the luxury of entertaining phenotypical biases in their scouting work. We’ve seen them taking advantage of bad year’s, injuries/illness, and, this year, geography to find Yankees. The only teams who were on Cito were the ones who schlepped up to Rochester to see him the Spring. Now the Yanks didn’t just go up once, they sent waves of their best scouts, including pro scout Billy Eppler up, because they believed they had isolated a Yankee.
And what I’m talking about when I say they are looking for Yankees is that they are looking for kids who can come up through the system and take charge of a position, spot in the rotation or spot in the pen. Like Cano and Phil have been doing over the past few years. They are homegrown players who have solidified a regular spot on the team to the point that the major league Yankees are not looking to upgrade the spot they hold.
You have to be a terrific player to start for the Yanks for any amount of time. If you’re not terriifc they’ll keep looking for someone terrific for your spot. And finding those players on the outside is costly. So the Yanks will break their backs trying to find them in the draft (Hughes) or in IFA(Cano). And that’s why they have to follow up on Cito or David Adams or Kevin Jordan.
Doreen,
yes, they are improving the development side, too.
Watching SF/Cin game right now. Rookie Mike Leake threw 22 pitches in the first inning. None were over 88 MPH. A rough inning for him. He gave up one run on a pair of 2 out hits. He’s winning in a hitter’s park. 5-0 with a 2.31 ERA and 52 strikeouts in 74 innings. Not bad for a 22 year old that’s never played in the minors. He reminds me a lot of Greg Massux, though he does walk a few more.