“It’s just out of respect”
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Podcast on Jun 24, 2010 
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Within the Yankees fan base, opinions of Joe Torre have changed in the past few years. He didn’t leave the organization on good terms, then he co-wrote the book and now he’s seen in some corners as a traitor.
But for the players most closely associated with him, Torre seems to be the same. Before last night’s game, Derek Jeter said he had already talked to Torre once that day. Of course, as he always does, Jeter called his old manager Mr. Torre.
“I was 21 when I came up,” Jeter said. “It’s out of respect. Not saying I don’t have respect for you guys if I don’t call you mister, (but) he’s been like a father figure to me. It’s just out of respect.”
What do the Core Four and Torre’s replacement remember about him?
Jorge Posada
“The way he treated me. Not only me getting a chance to play. Obviously I’m going to thank him forever, and the organization, but the way he treated me was really special. I will always remember that.”
Andy Pettitte
“He’s like a father figure. He was not only my manager, he was just somebody that you could talk to. Not about baseball, just talk to him about life. At a very young age he was always there. You all know how much he supported me, through the good times and the bad times. When I struggled, he stood for me. They wanted to trade me, and he put his neck on the line for me. That obviously means an awful lot to me.”
Mariano Rivera
“Joe was more than a friend. He was a mentor. I would say, a guy that always was there, giving me the best advice that he can give. Always supporting me. I remember 97, my first year as a closer. I was struggling a little bit in the beginning. He said, ‘Don’t worry about what you do. As long as I’m here, you will be my closer.’”
Derek Jeter
“I learned a lot from the way he handles people, the way he deals with people. I’ve said it before about, people always say you treat everyone the same. You don’t treat everyone the same. You treat everyone fairly. I think he was pretty good at that.”
Joe Girardi
“I was his bench coach and he allowed me to do a lot of things as a bench coach. He allowed me to manage the game and make whatever suggestion I wanted. For that I’m forever grateful. It was his job to decide how many good ideas I had, but there were open lines of communication and he allowed me to say whatever I was thinking. It was great.”
Here’s the audio from Jeter.
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And from Rivera.
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Associated Press photo
Somehow I don’t think Arod will go up to him and give him a hug tommorrow.
Pat M – I’m ok, thanks. Just at the desk, taking care of some paper matters and journal reading. Just trying to keep up. How’s the mrs?
That’s all well and good. I am glad Alex isn’t pretending to like Torre, just so people dont write about it. He has every reason to feel the opposite of the Core Four.
Here’s my take on Torre.
I think that, for the most part, Torre was a great clubhouse manager. He was/is an average at best manager between the lines.
Pros:
He did his best to keep pressure from above from landing on his players
Managed to massage most egos
Was very loyal to his guys
Cons:
After Zim left, Torre didn’t seem to trust the guys on his staff; almost as if he thought that everyone on his coaching staff was out for his job.
He wasn’t great at making on field adjustments – I think Zim was a huge help to him here.
He regularly took veiled shots at Alex (usually through Verducci)
Obviously he was awful at handling a pitching staff – specifically relief pitchers
Interpersonal relationships can be very complex. You’re not going to be best friends with everybody. For whatever reason, it didn’t work between Torre and Alex. It’s over, move on….
(repost)
They are not trading AJ. I wouldn’t even want them to trade AJ. Know why? AJ cares about winning and knows something is wrong and is going to fix it.
He also helped pitch us to a title last year, although some of you have very short memories of that.
I expect him to work this out and have a dominating stretch this summer.
This team does not need to trade the farm for Cliff Lee this season. Unless an injury happens in the rotation. Then it’s worth considering. Right now, our rotation is doing great. It would be dumb to use trade chips now for a player who is sitting there waiting for us in a few months for just money.
I’m all for making trades to improve the team, but the kind of prospects the M’s are going to get for Lee are not worth giving up with the rotation we currently have.
I really just want some Arod/DH insurance. A guy who can DH and play some 3b and hit RH would fit in perfect here.
I also want to see Joe give Colin Curtis a chance to play when we get to back to AL games and have the DH. The ball just leaps off his bat. All of you prospect huggers who have been touting the kid get props from me. He had a huge at bat last night and produced when called upon.
As for last night, it was hilarious watching everyone slitting their wrists in here over the Red Sox hitting an ill Ubaldo and then seeing the Red Sox lose the game. You know why they lost? Their bullpen is thinner than ours and they are turning Bard into Scott Proctor. That pen is 2 deep and they run Bard and Papelbum out all the time. Mo, meanwhile, sits on a throne and gets tons of rest until we really need him.
Girardi is managing our pen just fine. Joba looked sensational the past 2 nights and Robertsen is getting more consistent. Marte was a disaster, but I think his issue is his role. He is usually used for only one batter most nights. I’m not surprised he’s struggling to find his control with such little use.
I’m late to this, but I just have to say that I was so happy that I stayed up last night to watch that magical performance by Mo. He’s made a career of doing the impossible and last night was no different.
LOL Francesca had a great rant on the game and then a tribute to Mo, but he’s actually annoyed that the Yankees were laughing at Mo while he was at bat. What, the world was going to end if they lost the game? They should be sitting there looking depressed because they’re losing?
As to the upcoming series, I’m not feeling any emotion associated with seeing Joe and co. again. It’s interesting because it’s the Dodgers, but mostly it’s “whatever” to me. Good for Alex for not pretending that this is a happy reunion with Joe.
JohnC June 24th, 2010 at 1:22 pm
Somehow I don’t think Arod will go up to him and give him a hug tommorrow
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I’d say that’s a pretty safe bet.
Betsy-
I saw that you had returned to posting recently.
Where have you been ? Why did you stop posting for so long ?
LOL Francesca had a great rant on the game and then a tribute to Mo, but he’s actually annoyed that the Yankees were laughing at Mo while he was at bat. What, the world was going to end if they lost the game? They should be sitting there looking depressed because they’re losing?
__
Yankees were up 7-6 when Mo batted.
SJ44 June 24th, 2010 at 1:21 pm
Montero, Brackman, Romine and Betances, are the elite prospects in the system right now. That’s always fluid considering how guys are developing. Kids like Jose Ramirez, Heathcott, Baneulos and Gary Sanchez are potential elite talents as they develop. That’s actually a pretty good number of talented kids from a % standpoint.
Everybody else is potential trade bait to upgrade the current roster.
That means guys like David Phelps, Hector Noesi, Adam Warren, and David Adams for example, have real value to the Yankees.
Not for what they could bring to the major league roster. Its for what they can bring in trades to upgrade the ML roster.
*********************
I notice you left out Eduardo Nunez.
Is he a guy who has value not for what he could bring to the major league roster but for what he can bring in a trade to upgrade the ML roster?
Torre left much of the Rodriguez backstabbing to someone like giambi. He was the one that would run with the stories to slugs like Verducci and PA, among others.
fatcessa never played sports, so he can’t tell the difference between laughing at someone (which i’m sure fatcessa is accustomed to) and the team being excited and happy that he might get a hit.
LA is a tough park to homer in so here’s hoping the yankees dont try to launch the ball in every AB.
Torre for me changed my feelings for him with the book. It was a cheap shot.
He didn’t do it for the money. He makes money hand over fist.
He did it to get back at the Yankees and without the Yankees, he wouldn’t be out there publishing any books.
In 1996, he was an incredible manager. That probably was one of the best managing performances I’ve ever seen in my life.
As the 90′s ended though, he became an ambassador of the game and it seemed like he lost his edge.
The way he managed the ALCS in 2004 was awful. Just awful.
Then not pulling Joba off the mound with the midges stung even more.
Still, it doesn’t take away that he was a big part of what happened here and what is still happening here.
But writing the book and airing out dirty laundry like that to get the last word was petty to me and really tarnished his image.
glad to hear you are doing so well GF
repost:
Patrick from CT June 24th, 2010 at 1:25 pm
The Yankees are rolling if we?re talk about next year.
2011 Rotation
CC
Phil
Andy or Cliff Lee
AJ
Joba, Serg, or some other cheap pitcher.
SJ44,
You argue against fantasy talk all the time.
Having CC, AJ, Andy, and Cliff Lee seems like fantasy land to me.
GreenBeret7 June 24th, 2010 at 1:34 pm
Torre left much of the Rodriguez backstabbing to someone like giambi. He was the one that would run with the stories to slugs like Verducci and PA, among others.
——————–
I don’t know about that – I remember the Verducci article in (I want to say 2008) when Torre killed Alex over and over again.
GLove, thanks for the re-post. I agree with you, you a lot more eloquent than I.
G. Love-
I think you pretty much summed up my feelings about Torre.
GF – hi. Glad you’re coming along.
I have to say, I really liked how you compared listening to Francesa to sniffing paint in the garage…Now, that put a smile on my face.
GLove, he killed his friendship with Cash and that is something I can’t forget. I like Cash, Cash is a good man – he didn’t deserve that. Even though I didn’t like Kevin Brown, he didn’t deserve to have his private moments aired for all the world.
NYYROC, thanks for the heads up about the Andy/Phil article. I’ve been wondering recently who Phil looks to as a mentor – if it’s Andy, there’s no one better. I also wonder if he ever figured out who sent that flag to him in ST. Chad?
I respect that the NYY won a lot with Torre, can’t deny that. He was good at managing big name players in the clubhouse. But as a fan I didn’t like his managerial style, which I think was too laid back. (Sorry, I am a Billy Martin fan, at least between the white lines). The team won, but it drove me crazy watching Joe “sleep” through games. He deserves a lot of credit for winning but he should likewise get blame for losses. I thought he should’ve been fired after the historic 3-0 collapse vs Boston. He will be in the HOF some day and I hope he spends a good portion of his speech thanking George Steinbrenner for rescuing him from the sub .500 managerial scrap heap. He is the Ringo Starr of baseball, right place at the right time, stepping into a situation built by someone else and just about to hit it big. Still don’t understand why he wrote that book either.
I have very mixed feelings about Torre…you sum them up well G Love. From the outside, it appeared that he had his circle of favorites. And, again from the outside, it seems the 09 and 10 Yankees are a much more cohesive group.
I like Eiland a lot. Phil for one gives him credit for getting him through the dark days of 2008 when Phil admits he’d lost his confidence and wondered if he’d ever make it in the majors. I don’t think you can put a price on that kind of thing.
Besty, you are welcome. Hughes seems quiet but I think he has a pretty good sense of humor. He had a good line to Kim last week when she asked about his adjustment to Reyes in the 3rd AB: “If you mean I didn’t give him a FB down the middle then yeah, I’d call that an adjustment.” Reporters laughed.
MTU (aka GBURL) June 24th, 2010 at 1:38 pm
G. Love-
I think you pretty much summed up my feelings about Torre.
*************************
Mine too.
Good job, G. Love!!
Timing is everything in life. Torre had that when it came to the Yankees.
Joe Torre was a great manager for the Yankees. The time came for a change and that has workout just fine for both the Yankees and Joe Torre.
Don’t really like the fact he chose to write the book so soon after leaving the team, but I guess he struck while the iron was hot.
I’m excited about this Dodgers series, I’m sure this would be Bud Selig’s dream World Series matchup
upsate kate,
Great point. He definitely had a circle of favorites and stuck with them sometimes to the detriment of the team.
He did a lot of good here, but when he went from being Joe Torre to St. Joe, we started losing our edge.
I realize a ton of the GM moves didn’t work, but there is no denying you could watch a handful of games and realize who were Torre’s guys and who weren’t.
It seemed like the guys who weren’t his guys had to come to the pope to kiss his ring.
I think a good manager comes to the players and finds a way to make things better.
It wasn’t just Arod. There were other players who came through here during those years that Torre didn’t embrace.
what is everyone’s thoughts on the NL East? Do the Mets stay in in all summer? same with Atlanta? I just expect Philly to just go on a tear w/ J. Rollins back and reclaim it but the Mets are playing some good baseball, especially at hom
Torre was what the team needed until he wasn’t.
At some point in time he got more caught up in being the Manager of the Yankees than managing the Yankees.
Adversity doesn’t build character, it shows the character you have. The character that Joe showed sometimes when the times weren’t easy wasn’t pretty.
Patrick CT,
Here are the guys coming off the books after this season:
Andy: $12 mil
Derek: $21 mil
Mo: $15 mil
Javy: $12 mil
Nick J: $6 Mil
Park: $1.2 mil
Winn: $2 mil
Figure that Derek and Mo come back at the same numbers – that still leaves: 33 mil
If the Yankees give Andy another 12 mil that’s still leaving the club with 21 mill to play with. Some of that will go to arbitration and raises, but that’s still plenty to sign Cliff Lee with.
Personally – this is my 2011 squad:
Derek
Swisher
Tex
Alex
Cano
Posada – C/DH
Granderson
Montero – C/DH
Gardner
Bench: Ryan Theriot, Cervelli, Colin Curtis, Chad Huffman
CC
Haren – (acquired for a package of Joba and Eduardo Nunez)
Lee
AJ
Hughes
Pen:
RHP: Mo, Aceves, Mitre, Robertson, Melancon
LHP: Marte, Matt Thornton
NYYROC, Phil has a very good sense of humor – sort of sneaks up on you, but it’s not so subtle you can’t see it. Have you ever listened to his interviews with Kim? Hilarious stuff- they’re up on YES.com. He called his parents “fair -weather parents” because the only time they’ve come to see him pitch in NY was during the WS. Francesca made a crack to Kim one time asking if Phil has a personality. Well, maybe if Mike would ever have Phil on the show, he’d find out. Kim responded that he’s great and that he’s really respected in the clubhouse; I thought that was nice.
As to Lee, I have serious reservations about handing out another big contract to an older pitcher. That said, I have reservations about next year’s rotation as well. CC is CC. Phil should be even better, but 2nd year starters often regress, so who knows? I love AJ – and I agree with GLove about him – but he is inconsistent. Who knows what you’d get from Andy? AT 39, you can’t assume he’s going to keep pitching like this.
Pat-
“Torre was what the team needed until he wasn’t.”
I like it.
It’s kind of sad seeing Eiland visit CC on the mound in that commercial. I think it’s a pepsi initiative? Eiland talking about pizza parties for youth groups. Hope he’s back soon.
As for the topic of the post. It’s nice that the core still love Torre. Lots if special bonds formed during the dynasty.
If not for the book and the midges, many would be waxing poetic about Mr. T.
I guess as time goes on, so does the romanticizing.
MTU, I needed a break……I wasn’t even intending to come back, but yesterday there were questions about whether I was that stupid Philly troll and I had to quell those questions.
Betsy-
Did you see my post above ?
How inept are the Baltimore Orioles? According to the crwler running across the bottom of the MLB screen, they are the only MLB team that hasn’t had a home run from their 1st basemen.
Sorry betsy. I pulled the trigger a little too quickly.
Why weren’t you intending to come back ?
Betsy, Yes I’ve seen Phil’s pre-game interviews with Kim, pretty good stuff and funny. One time she told him she was going to ask him some questions from bloggers and he commented to the effect: “Good, they have to be better than the ones you are asking.”
# Joe from Long Island June 24th, 2010 at 1:39 pm
GF – hi. Glad you’re coming along.
I have to say, I really liked how you compared listening to Francesa to sniffing paint in the garage…Now, that put a smile on my face.
————-
LOL. Yeah, thanks. Both are extremely hazardous to your health.
Betsy, who are you kidding, you need this place like a moth needs a flame.
M
that Pepsi commercial is one of my favs, especially Longo planning senior proms for senior citizens
I totally agree with G.Love. Reading that book left a very bad taste in my mouth. Kinda cheapened the Torre years after 1999.
GF-
I am also glad to hear that you are now nearly 100% and have not had any setbacks.
Hope you enjoy good health for a long time to come.
Why were they running like fools in the 1st inning?
Swish and Tex were brain dead. Willis was on the ropes and they let him off.
Arod did the same on the Parra catch.
As Mo said, they played horrible.
Mick, no I don’t. I had absolutely no intention of returning and Pat M could tell you that.
NYYROC June 24th, 2010 at 1:52 pm
Betsy, Yes I’ve seen Phil’s pre-game interviews with Kim, pretty good stuff and funny. One time she told him she was going to ask him some questions from bloggers and he commented to the effect: “Good, they have to be better than the ones you are asking.”
———————————————————————————————————————-
And he hasn’t been interviewed by her since.
That doesn’t look right. Romanticing by the fans goes away as time goes in. It’s the oppsite for the core!
Btw one of torres faults was his aversion to rookie players. That’s one major difference between him and the current manager. You’ll laugh when you see that nearly have his lineup is nearly my age. Torre loves him some vets.
Chip,
Certainly a great looking roster but I don’t know if the ChiSox and Dbacks would like it too much ..also what would the payroll of that team be?
MTU,
Much appreciated. Thanks.
If not for the book and the midges, many would be waxing poetic about Mr. T.
=====================================
I guess batting Alex 8th doesn’t count.
Oh yes, he was always a great handler of pitchers.
Mick
I think it was the effect of the vortex circles…oh wait…that is in Sedona not Phoenix!
Anyone who bashes Torre for writing that book clearly didn’t read it and is just going off negative pieces published in the papers.
That book was one of the single BEST pieces of sports literature I’ve ever read, and I’m an avid reader of baseball and basketball history.
I’m thrilled Torre decided to write that book because reading it was a tremendous treat. And there were no “cheap shots” in it.
GB, yes he has……before his recent Met game. The interviews stopped before the Met game at CitiField – Kim wasn’t working that game as it was a Fox game. Phil is very superstitious and he asked to be interviewed again before Saturday’s start,lol.
When does Igawa’s contact come off the books?
All tied up in the 5th LeBlanc gave it up SD-3 TB-3 boo!
People really believed that Philly moron was Betsy?
Maybe if he had griped about the NY sporting press.
Betsy, don’t let these idiots run you off. You’re good people and a hell of a lot better than the slugs that enjoy keeping this crap going. Give them the finger, take a break for a little bit, and come back and tell them to Eff off.
I think the Yankees should make an offer for Jhonny Peralta. He has worn out his welcome in Cleveland. He is only 28, has a club option for 2011, bats righthanded and can play 3b and ss. Send Pena/Miranda and a lower level SP to Cleveland for him.
“I think the Yankees should make an offer for Jhonny Peralta. He has worn out his welcome in Cleveland. He is only 28, has a club option for 2011, bats righthanded and can play 3b and ss. Send Pena/Miranda and a lower level SP to Cleveland for him.”
Peralta’s a good player.
But he would play where?
LOL GB – It wasn’t worth it to do that and frankly, I was not “chased away” because of trolls, but by other things. Trolls aren’t worth getting upset about. I did miss asking you about the wonder twins – how are they? Also, how are you feeling?
Betsy – Hughes rules (pleading the fifth) June 24th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
GB, yes he has……before his recent Met game. The interviews stopped before the Met game at CitiField – Kim wasn’t working that game as it was a Fox game. Phil is very superstitious and he asked to be interviewed again before Saturday’s start,lol.
———————————————————————————————————————-
Oh, I know. I’m studying to be a journalist…sports….and I prefer my version of the “truth”.
blake June 24th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
Chip,
Certainly a great looking roster but I don?t know if the ChiSox and Dbacks would like it too much ..also what would the payroll of that team be?
—————
Blake – the D’Backs have talked about having to cut nearly 20 mil off their payroll before next season – moving Haren has to happen to make that new mandate – I actually think he’s easier to get than Thornton.
As for the payroll – it probably would be right around what this year’s payroll is.
Haren makes 12.75 next year, so that’s Javy + Park
Figure Lee will get 18 which the Yankees offset with the losses of Andy and Nick Johnson.
Theriot and Thornton are both arbitration cases.
By putting Montero in the lineup the Yankees won’t have to invest in a free agent bat.
Unfortunately, there is likely to be lots of fishing by reporters who will ask A-Rod and Torre a bunch of nonsense in pursuit of that one “gotcha” type answer.
Ugh.
I hate news manufacturing.
Betsy – I’d think twice before I took any advice on etiquette from GB. Giving people the finger and effin’ this and that.
Although, the tough guy image is probably how he wooed Nurse Karloff….
Didn’t read the book, but didn’t care for the embarrassing details and characterization about certain players.
Also, Moose said he was unaware that his coversations with Verducci were for his book. Slime.
Betsy, the kids are doing just fine. Thanks for asking, doll. They have their favorite playmate back. Sidney is starting to try standing and walking. She uses “Killer’s” ears or tail to pull herself up. He’s not smart enough to know that’s not what they are for. He just stands there and lets her.
crawford hurt his shoulder
http://www.usatoday.com/sports.....very_N.htm
Here’s the USA Today article. It’s interesting that some have said here that Phil would have been fine in 2007 had he not gotten hurt. Here, you’re basically having Andy say that he wouldn’t have been- that Phil lacked confidence to get major leaguers out. That said, he ended up with very good#s in 2007 for a 21 year old in the AL East. August, he struggled, but that’s because he was not fully healthy. He did very well in September and October.
G-C,
I read the book. I have it on my shelf. It was full of cheap shots at Arod, Cashman, Yankee execs, etc.
That wasn’t the time or the place for that book to come out.
It was a clear retort to the Yankees parting ways with him. He wanted to punish them and have the last word. He got it. And now he’s persona non grata at Yankee Stadium.
I understand the core guys love him like a Dad, but I think they’d be feeling a lot different if he had said things about them in that book they didn’t agree with.
He was going to cause a big divide between players and the front office if he continued on here and things would have gotten uglier.
By the end, I think Joe wanted to be manager for life and also wanted to be general manager picking the players. The success and accolades went to his head.
Francesa wonders if the Yanks took stupid pills last night.
Agreed.
Betsy-
If you would care to elaborate on why you were thinking of no longer posting but would rather not say so here you can e-mail me @ the address below :
cybermrb03@gmail.com
I would welcome your answer. Thanks.
Joe from Long Island June 24th, 2010 at 2:05 pm
Betsy – I’d think twice before I took any advice on etiquette from GB. Giving people the finger and effin’ this and that.
Although, the tough guy image is probably how he wooed Nurse Karloff….
———————————————————————————————————————-
I learned everything from my Emily Post Book Of Etiquette, and Miss Manners. You only need to read between the lines.
Mike doesn’t like the fraternization…that’s old school. Nothing wrong with that.
“It was a clear retort to the Yankees parting ways with him. He wanted to punish them and have the last word. He got it. And now he’s persona non grata at Yankee Stadium. ”
I didn’t see it that way.
He didn’t take cheap shots at Cashman. He made his affection for Cashman pretty clear and described the incident he felt irrevocably damaged their relationship. How is that a veiled shot? Its pretty much the truth.
And prior to last year Arod may have very well deserved he criticism that was coming to him.
I strongly disagree that he’s “persona non grata” at Yankee Stadium. I think the facade would come down were he introduced there tomorrow.
Joe, I have to tell you that I’m no lady – don’t piss me off on the road,lol.
Aww, GB – how cute. Hopefully “KIller” won’t smarten up. Kids don’t know that animals aren’t toys and they could react badly simply because they are protecting themselves. It sounds like “Killer” is just a sweetie pie…….and Syd sounds like a smart cookie. Hey, if it’s helping her, good for her!
GB
I am going to tell Killer that you compared Papelbum to a dog, and then called the Dodgers the Doggers.
Hey Chip,
What about the guys that will get raises in pay. I believe that Cano, Granderson and Swisher all make more $$ next year…
Aside from Jeter and Mo, some of those other huys will be replaced with Vets too. The Yanks are not going to go with all you replacements.
I’m a Yankee fan, and I could care less how much they cost, it just that Hall and Cash have said around 200mil not around 220mil. Actually I think they have said payroll is not going up.
G-C
I think Peralta could spell both Arod and Jeter and also be used as a RH DH when needed. He is an upgrade over Pena because of his bat. Just an option towards the deadline. This years Jerry Hairston.
When talking about money coming off the books in any given offseason you have to factor in raises as well.
Cano, Granderson, Phil, etc.
Bret,
Left Nunez off as an oversight. Was typing on my phone.
I would put him in the Adams/Noesi level of prospect. Although, having the year he’s having as a SS certainly helps trade opportunities.
Cliff Lee isn’t a fantasy as a free agent signing. Especially since everybody in baseball knows how much the Yankees love him.
My take on Torre is, he was two different managers. One with Zimmer and one without him.
The book reduced him and made him look small because it was petty, vindictive, and unnecessary.
I have no problem with guys that love him and I have no problem with Arod hating him.
I’ll just be glad when the weekend is over because all he is at this point to the Yankees is a distraction.
MTU, I’ll email you later – when I get home from work. I’m at the library now on my lunch break and don’t have enough time to explain……..
Torre will be welcome at YS. But the book pushes back the date a little . And who says torre even wants to visit any time soon? He seems to harbor I’ll feelings towards the org. Feels he was crapper on.
Phil in C-
Peralta is way too good a ballplayer to accept a role as a utility man
don’t ya think ?
He can start for most clubs.
G-C June 24th, 2010 at 2:10 pm
“It was a clear retort to the Yankees parting ways with him. He wanted to punish them and have the last word. He got it. And now he’s persona non grata at Yankee Stadium. ”
I didn’t see it that way.
He didn’t take cheap shots at Cashman. He made his affection for Cashman pretty clear and described the incident he felt irrevocably damaged their relationship. How is that a veiled shot? Its pretty much the truth.
And prior to last year Arod may have very well deserved he criticism that was coming to him.
I strongly disagree that he’s “persona non grata” at Yankee Stadium. I think the facade would come down were he introduced there tomorrow.
———————————————————————————————————————-
Nobody in a position has the right to spread personal/private conversations between him and one of his personnel in the media. That was a breach of any known etiquette that I know of. It was uncalled for.
That’s ill
Betsy-
That sounds good. Thanks. I’ll check later tonite.
Patrick from CT June 24th, 2010 at 2:10 pm
Hey Chip,
What about the guys that will get raises in pay. I believe that Cano, Granderson and Swisher all make more $$ next year?
Aside from Jeter and Mo, some of those other huys will be replaced with Vets too. The Yanks are not going to go with all you replacements.
I?m a Yankee fan, and I could care less how much they cost, it just that Hall and Cash have said around 200mil not around 220mil. Actually I think they have said payroll is not going up.
———————-
Cano gets a $1 mil bump
Swisher gets $2 mil
Granderson gets $3 mil
But in addition to the guys that I listed coming off the books they are also parting ways with:
Marcus Thames, Juan Miranda, Kei Igawa, Chad Gaudin…
Small bumps like that I don’t think greatly impact the Yankee plans.
I think if Andy or Javy come back they can still afford Lee or Crawford or Werth or Haren
If both Andy and Javy leave they can get two of those guys.
And that’s crapped on. Stupid Steve Jobs.
G-C,
It was Torre’s version of the truth. His version of the truth served his agenda.
Cashman and company didn’t get a chance to retort before the book was put into print and after it went into print, they chose not to get into a war of words with him.
He aired out dirty laundry. While I’m more than willing to assume a lot of it was true, I’m also willing to assume he left a lot of stuff out that could have painted him in a bad light.
The book was a great read. I’ll give you that. But, it came off petty and vindictive due to the timing.
“Nobody in a position has the right to spread personal/private conversations between him and one of his personnel in the media. That was a breach of any known etiquette that I know of. It was uncalled for.”
Perhaps.
Yet almost any piece of sports literature you read includes excerpts of private conversations between players, coaches, and organizational personnel.
Somehow Torre is the only one that gets lambasted for it.
GB-
I agree with your POV on Torre and potential breaches of confidentiality.
Why the heck didn’t he just wait until he was retired and no longer Managing, or better yet until most if not all of the parties concerned were no longer playing as well ?
Why the heck didn’t he just wait until he was retired and no longer Managing, or better yet until most if not all of the parties concerned were no longer playing as well ?
=================
Maybe because he struck while the iron was hot.
I agree that if Mo comes back Joba is trade bait. Joba is a starter or closer for 1/2 the teams in the league and that is more valuable than an 8th inning guy for sure.
Not really sure what the Yankees would need if they go out and sign Chiff Lee.
Again, I’m going to say I don’t believe the Yankees will spend 70+mil on 4 starters. I think the will spend less on starters than this year. JV was brought in as insurance for Hughes and they won’t need that next year.
CC, AJ, Phil, Andy or Lee not both, and a cheap #5
# mick June 24th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Francesa wonders if the Yanks took stupid pills last night.
Agreed.
————-
I wonder if Francesa takes stupid pills everyday. That probably goes without saying.
MTU
The Indians have been trying to move him out for the past year or so. They moved him out of SS and tried to replace him at 3b with Andy Marte. He has worn out his welcome in Cleveland. If the Indians could find someone to play 3b, he would be a utility guy for them. He is not a part of the Indians future, even though he is only 28. Think the Indians would try to get something for him instead of letting him walk at the end of the year if they could.
Trenton has a 7-2 lead in the bottom of the 7th inning. Laird is 2-4 with a grand slam (homer #17, RBI #73).
Noesi: 7 innings, 4 hits, 2 runs (earned), 3 walks, 10 strikeouts. 1 walk was intentional
My take on Torre is, he was two different managers. One with Zimmer and one without him.
I couldn’t agree with this more.
When Zimmer was around Torre had no worries; he knew Zimmer wasn’t looking for his job and even if he was, he knew that the Yankees would never look at Zimmer as a replacement.
When Zimmer left and the Yankees started putting guys who were actively looking to become managers: Mazilli, Girardi, Randolph, even Donnie in the role of bench coach, I think Torre was half wondering “is this guy out for my job” and stopped listening to them. Much the same way I think he stopped listening to his pitching coaches when Mel left.
“Unfortunately, there is likely to be lots of fishing by reporters who will ask A-Rod and Torre a bunch of nonsense in pursuit of that one “gotcha” type answer.”
They already have.
After Alex cut off reporters at his locker, one followed him to the batting cage and told him his non-answer wouldn’t sit well with the Jeter, Mo, Andy and Jorge who see Torre as “God-like” and his saying nothing was bound to cause a stir.
Alex ignored the reporter and continued to take swings in the cage.
Again, I?m going to say I don?t believe the Yankees will spend 70+mil on 4 starters. I think the will spend less on starters than this year. JV was brought in as insurance for Hughes and they won?t need that next year.
Yeah but if you bring in Lee and/or Haren you’re getting insurance if CC opts out of his contract after next season and doesn’t return.
I wonder if Francesa takes stupid pills everyday. That probably goes without saying.
=========================
Lol GF, Mike being Mike.
Yanks were perplexing in the 1st, where was Swish going ? And why was Tex stealing 3rd?
On an imploding Wiillis, no less.
And he got singed by the fire. But I’m sure he doesn’t have any regrets.
Anyway gonna be a weird weekend all around. Hopefully we take the series. Tampas not going away yet. They’re leading now.
pat June 24th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
They already have.
After Alex cut off reporters at his locker, one followed him to the batting cage and told him his non-answer wouldn’t sit well with the Jeter, Mo, Andy and Jorge who see Torre as “God-like” and his saying nothing was bound to cause a stir.
Alex ignored the reporter and continued to take swings in the cage.
******************************
OMG, are you kidding me? That’s awful. Good for Alex for ignoring him.
MTU (aka GBURL) June 24th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
GB-
I agree with your POV on Torre and potential breaches of confidentiality.
Why the heck didn’t he just wait until he was retired and no longer Managing, or better yet until most if not all of the parties concerned were no longer playing as well ?
———————————————————————————————————————-
He and giambi were a large part of the unnamed sourses used….while he was still managing the Yankees.
GB-
What’s your take on Noesi ?
Laird to AAA soon ?
For a guy who built his reputation on managing egos, handling a clubhouse, etc. he sure did a number on that clubhouse and several player’s in it in the mid 2000s and on his way out.
GB -
How is Laird with the glove?
I guess what I’m asking is this: If Montero struggles this year, is Laird good enough that the Yankees might consider bringing him up next year and playing him at DH/3b to give Alex more time off at DH with his hip issues?
With this Dodger series being in L.A., Torre can feel in somewhat of a comfort zone opposed to the series being in the Bronx.
He burned some bridges with a book that never should have happened.
In a way it’s similar to the feelings the Rangers had about Mark Messier. How many years were they supposed to pay for his contributions toward winning a Stanley Cup ?
The Yankees should have replaced Torre after the 2005 season. He lost what good managerial skills he had after 2002 and the Yankees were gracious enough to keep him around 5 years too long. How much bitterness he still holds remains to be seen.
“I agree that if Mo comes back Joba is trade bait.”
Should he be trade bait? Probably. For his career’s sake I’d like to see him get a chance to fulfill his potential.
But I don’t envision Chamberlain ever pitching anywhere other than New York. Inconsistencies on the mound or not, he’s become a pretty big part of the clubhouse and organization. He’s one of the “guys,” deservedly so or not. When Heathcott signed with the Yankees last year, AJ took him out with the team post-game for dinner and fun. The guys there, to the best of my memory, were Burnett, Sabathia, Teixeira, Rodriguez, Jeter, Damon, and Chamberlain.
That said something to me.
Joe Torre is one of the most overrated figures in baseball history.
He did nothing before the Yankees, he’s done nothing since he left… Additionally, he is horrific at handling a pitching staff (is there anything more important for a manager), and an absolute bullpen butcher.
Chip, I hope you’re right and The Yankees do add 2 big pieces next year.
I just don’t see how if they keep the same or lower the pay roll.
And who is going to take Igawa without the Yanks paying for most of him?
“he’s done nothing since he left”
Really? That team in the blue and white has been pretty good since he’s taken over.
Unless you’re watching a different game than I am.
MTU – I’ll add Noesi to AAA after the futures game??
I think Noesi is putting himself squarely with Nova and Macallister as guys that can help soon. He is having a phenomenal year.
Phil in C-
A young guy like Peralta would be a great get.
I just don’t see it happening in spite of your argument to the contrary.
Erin
Wish I was kidding but I’m not. Alex chose not to be fake about this and should stick to “no comment” going forward.
Now the ball is in Torre’s court if he wants to make it a story or just let it go.
It says joba can’t say no to a party invite? I kid, I kid.
CC not opting out and cliff’s not getting his $150M from the Yankees. And wt-f on Haren?
What is the D-Backs payroll? ESPN has them at $48,452,166 million and Cott’s has them at $75,484,833.
Five-
Thanks for the feedback. Can you say more about his arsenal, etc. and why you believe what you believe ? please elaborate.
Patrick from CT June 24th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
Chip, I hope you?re right and The Yankees do add 2 big pieces next year.
I just don?t see how if they keep the same or lower the pay roll.
And who is going to take Igawa without the Yanks paying for most of him?
————————–
I think Igawa’s contract is up, am I a year off on that one?
Tom -
Cots is correct.
MTU (aka GBURL) June 24th, 2010 at 2:25 pm
GB-
What’s your take on Noesi ?
Laird to AAA soon ?
———————————————————————————————————————-
MTU, until a spot at third base opens up at Scranton, I don’t see a reason that they’d move Laird up. They seem to be trying to create some value on both Miranda and Vazquez by playing Vazquez at 3rd base. The bat is just about ready but, he ,eads help on the footwork at defense. His throws go off-line sometimes. It’s like the Cano of old, though…his errors come in bunches. Just mechanics.
Noesi is much the same pitcher as Nova is, maybe a mile or 2 faster. The major difference is that Noesi is a swing and miss guy more than Nova is.
GB-
Thanks. Noesi sounds kind of valuable then, No ?
In my experience playing sports and dealing with coaches/managers you learn a lot more about them from how they deal with the divas, malcontents, and big egos than the “good guys.”
I think we all know what Torre “excelled” at.
Torre is worthless he mailed it in from 2004 on when he managed the yankees. He was more into being a celebrity and some kind of baseball ambassador instead of a manager.
“I strongly disagree that he’s “persona non grata” at Yankee Stadium. I think the facade would come down were he introduced there tomorrow.”
I dunno about this.. I think the feelings being expressed here are pretty much those that most Yankee fans have towards Torre: conflicted.
As everyone knows/has said, his managerial career without Zim looked mighty different and he had his guys and he stuck with them (on more than a few occasions) to a fault. The book, while good for anyone that wants to hear about anything Yankees, was a great read.. but that doesn’t mean that I respect the fact that it was written.
The stuff about Kevin Brown especially struck me as a bit cruel (and I HATED Kevin bleepin’ Brown!!!). And the stuff involving Arod seemed thrown in simply so the book would get attention. His criticisms of Arod were just so odd. The coffee thing?? Really? If the guy hadn’t batted him 8th in the lineup in a critical game (without really shifting any other cold batters, if I recall) I may have taken his criticisms of Arod more seriously.. but Torre kinda made his opinion known long before the book was published.
Man….ugly base running must be contaguous. San Diego with a runner on 2nd, nobody out, down 4-3. Ball hit directly to shortstop and the runner tries going to 3rd…thrown out. The hitter tries going to 2nd and is thrown out by 20 feet.
G-C
If Joba’s immediate future in NY is as an 8th inning relief pitcher until Mo hangs em up, then I think the Yankees will entertain offers for him. Especially if they can use him as part of a package to get a frontline starter.
If you figure that Mo’s going to probably pitch another 2 or 3 years, the Yankees can afford to move Joba and groom another one of their prospect pitchers over that time to replace him or they can go out and bring in a free agent.
SJ44 June 24th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
Bret,
Left Nunez off as an oversight. Was typing on my phone.
I would put him in the Adams/Noesi level of prospect. Although, having the year he’s having as a SS certainly helps trade opportunities.
**********
Would you agree with these 2 lists of untouchables vs. trade bait?
Untouchables:
Montero
Romine
Brackman
Betances
Potential untouchables:
Jose Ramirez
Heathcott
Baneulos
Gary Sanchez
JR Murphy
Trade Bait:
Eduardo Nunez
Brandon Laird
Noesi
McAllister
Stoneburner
David Phelps
David Adams
Adam Warren
Nova
just catching up on the past few threads.
the prospect discussion is always interesting, as is the upton discussion. he’d look really good in rf for us. what would it take to trade for him?
would he need one or more of the ‘elite’ list?
i know the diamonbacks view him as one of their solid pieces going forward, but maybe a prospect or two could get us quite a nice player.
MTU (aka GBURL) June 24th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
GB-
Thanks. Noesi sounds kind of valuable then, No ?
———————————————————————————————————————-
I like Nova. Like i said…pretty much the same pitcher….same age, but, Noesi is more of a strikeout pitcher. If I could only keep one, Noesi is it.
“Cots is correct”
Then why will they be to trade Haren to save the 20 million?
No Byrnes, Webb, Tracy, Jackson, Howry, or Webb = almost 27 million dollars in savings.
The Yanks were a better team, with more talent, during the period when Zimmer was a coach. The team’s “decline” more or less coincided with Zim’s departure, but it had a lot more to do with roster from 2004-2007 than Zimmer not being around.
tom,
espn doesn’t count that the diamondbacks are paying 10 mill to eric byrnes
Gb-
That’s kind of what I thought you meant, and since Nova projects as at least a backender I see Noesi as valuable.
Maybe his cieling is more mid-rotation due to the swing and miss aspect ?
It’s going to be interesting to see how the Yanks sort thru some of the talent they have amassed, and what they can get in return.
Tim Norton in his 3rd game at Trenton: 1 inning, 0 hits, 1 walk, 2 strikeouts
Fangraphs article: Derek Jeter’s Double play Condiion a good read!
http//www.fangraphs.com
Chip, I believe Kei Igawa has a 4 or 5 year deal that started in 2007.
As far as Torre, good for ARod keeping his mouth closed. That guy has come a long way whe dealing with destractions.
I’m neither a big fan of Torre or ARod at this point but I root hard for ARod because he is a Yankee.
Bret-
I like your list but if it were me I would just have 2 groups. An “A-list”, and a “B-list”. Not sure there is a “B+ list” ?
Laird follows an RBI single by Romine with a 3 run home ro right field.
He’s 3-5 with 2 homers, 7 RBI and 2 runs scored. 18 homers and 76 RBI in 71 games.
MTU, I’d expect some will be dealt this summer and fall, because if they don’t, they’ll surely be lost in the Rule 5 draft in December.
Laird is OUT-OF-HIS-MIND
GB-
Understand. There are too many good ones to lose that way.
There seems to be no grey area when it comes to The HOF Mgr. Joe Torre……..Do remember, he became a star in pinstripes, as much as any of his players and the front office hated that……..Anybody blaming him for the October 04 debacle is off line…It was rather remarkable with that ragged rotation and the thinness of the bullpen that they made it that far ( 104 wins ? )…..The longer the Boston series went the more exposed the weakness’s became…….It ended ugly, which is sad ( but so did the Babe’s departure )….However he’ll don a Yankee cap when he goes to Cooperstown….And oh my the way, The Yanks will retire # 6………I wonder where Tricia is and will she visit here during the weekend…….Dodgers are going to be very hungry come tomorrow night ( 6 game skid )…….I’m a Torre supporter…….,I hear all so often how poorly constructed the Yanks were after 03, yet those same posters blast Joe Torre…..It was time to move on, but a few suits upstairs ran him out of town
Bret, I’d put Stoneburner a tick ahead of everyone in that group.
What he’s done this year (2.00 ERA, 86 Ks in 85 innings, just 48 hits and 21 walks allowed) is nothing short of terrific. He has the stuff to match too.
we have some beasts in the minors.
Brandon Laird? I say, two or 3 years, make ARod the full time DH and bring this kid in to play 3rd.
Torre got all the glory for Stick Michael’s team.
Just like Girardi will get all the glory for Cash’s team.
Years down the line no one will remember that Cash is really the one who made that clubhouse what it is and that he had to go talk to Girardi about loosening up the atmosphere.
GB-
It seems to me that young Mr. Laird is forcing the issue of AAA with his bat in sort of the way I was thinking Montero might with respect to the majors.
He can learn footwork at AAA too. His bat is propelling not only baseballs but his career.
MTU (aka GBURL) June 24th, 2010 at 1:33 pm
Betsy-
I saw that you had returned to posting recently.
Where have you been ? Why did you stop posting for so long ?
She was busy being Philly Phitins.
Or turn Laird into a LFer. With bats like these in the minors, no reason not to have them help out major league team in the future.
loosening up the atmosphere is a good thing. sometimes the players even sneak more facial hair than is probably allowed and get around the facial hair rule, of course not a caveman look, but if it makes them feel meaner with some facial scruff, go for it.
Tomorrow night will be a must see in Tampa when The Devil Rays and Diamonbacks go at it. I wonder if this ups the level of play from the Upton Brothers? Justin Upton could make that place very small in a hurry.
Pat M. – “…..It was time to move on, but a few suits upstairs ran him out of town”
I couldn’t agree more and the truth was that the organization probably should have moved on from Torre sooner. But, even though we agree that he wasn’t given great teams to work with after 2003, I think he certainly had enough to win. You’re right that our team’s weaknesses were exposed in the Sox series, but one of those weaknesses had to be considered Torre’s in game management. I loved the man, but he DESTROYED half the arms in our pen.
I think the reason why fans are blasting him is mostly based on the book and its hard to argue their feelings. Just like he was viewed as a father figure for the core 4, I think a lot of fans had that same warm and fuzzy feeling towards him. The book just changed the light people saw him in, and I don’t know that he looked very good.
MTU (aka GBURL) June 24th, 2010 at 3:04 pm
GB-
It seems to me that young Mr. Laird is forcing the issue of AAA with his bat in sort of the way I was thinking Montero might with respect to the majors.
He can learn footwork at AAA too. His bat is propelling not only baseballs but his career.
———————————————————————————————————————-
I think they are trying to build value in Miranda and Vazquez to move one in a trade. DHing one of them won’t help. Laird can hold tight until the deadline when a spot should open up.
If Mariano closed that game, there is no 04 collapse. People conveniently forget that. They blame A-Rod, Vazquez, Brown, Not bunting on Wakefield/Schilling, etc. Yet Mariano is Teflon. Not that he hasn’t earned that but he was more responsible than any of the above guys.
Laird has 21 more RBIS than the guy in second place in the race.
That is crazy for this point in the season.
GB most of those players on that list do not need to be protected yet.
Some of them are already on the 40 man.
They have quite a # of spots that can be opened, so I am not worried about them having to do trades for that reason.
This list is okay, but Manny is also untouchable, 19 year old lefties who have his composure, and his stuff, which for some reason is knocked by people, when in reality his stuff is all plus, you don’t trade.
Also all the young guys are all untradable, you don’t trade guys in low a, they have no trade value of what they could be.
I would also say Stoneburner is on that no trade list, he has done nothing but dominate, and although I don’t know if he is a starter, I know he could be a big time arm in the bullpen.
The guys who have value at a higher level who could be traded are
Nunez
Nova
Adams- although he needs to come back from his ankle injury he was having as good of a year as Laird and Romine before the injury.
Phelps
Laird
These are the 5 guys who have the most value, some more than others, but all of them are valuable chips for either the Yankees or trades.
If it is a monster trade, then you can add in Romine, but it would have to be a really big trade, and the way Laird is going, he is becoming a very big power bat chip, be it for us or someone else.
Let the panic begin. Tampa just picked up a ha;f a game on the Yankees.
“Just like Girardi will get all the glory for Cash’s team. ”
No way. People will just say Cashman spent $450 million dollars to get a winner, while Stick did it with smart trades and a good farm system.
up a ***half*** a game on the Yankees
“If Mariano closed that game, there is no 04 collapse. People conveniently forget that. They blame A-Rod, Vazquez, Brown, Not bunting on Wakefield/Schilling, etc. Yet Mariano is Teflon. Not that he hasn’t earned that but he was more responsible than any of the above guys.”
I always said that. The burden of that series falls more on Gordon and Rivera than anyone else. Gordon in particular for his pathetic display in game five.
Not to portray myself as a Nostradamus but I told everyone I knew after the Yankees lost game four that the series was over. It was imperative that they closed it out there. They were overmatched in each successive pitching matchup and one could see that collapse coming from a MILE away. To this day I still don’t even figure it as a collapse because it was so darned predictable.
Torre’s biggest blunder as a manager, save the Joba incident, was leaving Weaver in for a second inning of work in game four of the 2003 WS. I still don’t, and probably never will, understand how he was in the game at that time.
Romine before the injury?
What did I miss?
Jason, I didn’t say most of them did, but, Nova, Corona, Luis Nunez and other pitchers will be lost if mot protected or moved.
Shame Spencer, other than Rivera and Gordon, all the other arms were what they were……The bullpen was and has been a weakness until recently……..That rotation in 04 and the following tears failed to give any length, and the thin pen gets exposed…….It was widely known around baseball, get the Yanks starts out and the pen will keep Rivera on the pine……When you lose Wells, Clemens & Pettite in one winter, it takes years to over come that…… 5 years to be exact……I really don’t want to get into a Torre debate because it’ll like facing the wind…….
“No way. People will just say Cashman spent $450 million dollars to get a winner, while Stick did it with smart trades and a good farm system.”
—————————
Exactly. Cash won’t get the glory.
G-C – Gordon?? Really? GORDON??? You mean the same guy that was throwing tomatoes over the plate all season? HE was supposed to be able to stop the Sox line up in a big spot in the playoffs?
I agree that the blame for that series can only fall on everyone, but pointing to Gordon as the crux of our downfall is sorta over simplifying it (even giving him half the credit is way too much IMO).
Cashman got lucky – he found 3 top free agents who were also good guys.
Would they not have signed Sabathia if he was a quiet, reserved-type like Mussina? No, because his talent overrides anything.
As long as the guy isin’t a malcontent, it really isin’t a big deal.
“G-C – Gordon?? Really? GORDON??? You mean the same guy that was throwing tomatoes over the plate all season? HE was supposed to be able to stop the Sox line up in a big spot in the playoffs?
I agree that the blame for that series can only fall on everyone, but pointing to Gordon as the crux of our downfall is sorta over simplifying it (even giving him half the credit is way too much IMO).”
Were we watching the same Tom Gordon that year?
I guess not. Tom Gordon was one of the ten or fifteen most valuable pitchers in the league that year, arguably statistically better than Mariano. He had a phenominal season, the best a Yankee setup man has had since Rivera himself was setting up Wetteland.
Phelps, Adams, Nunez and Laird won’t need protecting.
Adams should be back by the first of next week according to radio broadcasts.
I might trade Adams, but he could also be valuable as an infielder/outfielder on the 4 corners. That guy can hit a baseball.
Winning/Chemistry is always going to be the chicken or the egg theory.
If Mariano gets 3 outs in 2004… the “ruined” clubhouse with Torre, Sheffield, Giambi, Mussina, Brown, etc. win a championship (they would have beat STL).
Cashman specifically talked to all his new acquisitions following the 2008 winter about changing the culture in that clubhouse.
He spoke to Girardi as well.
He engineered the chemistry in that clubhouse as much as he engineered the roster.
I dunno G-C, maybe I blocked out the entire season and only think of Gordon being terrible because thats how he left the team. I still have a hard time blaming the relievers though, when our guys were making the Bosox pitching look unhittable. Eh, thank god we won last year so I can bury those bad memories..
GB, Nova is already on the 40.
Corona and L Nunez have no futures with the Yankees, Corona has been available twice chosen once, he is a very good defensive second baseman, but Pena is a much better shortstop, so he has no place with the big club.
I really don’t see any problem with the 40, the guys who need to be put on will be, there are spaces available with guys who are not big time prospects, and the players like a Duff or the like, I am not worried about losing them. I guess they could trade those guys, but all they will be is a minor league for minor league type trade.
I should add I did not put Noesi on that trade list, only because I don’t trade him, I think his stuff is better than Nova as GB said and he is someone I want to see at the triple A level, he might be a Yankee as Phil likes to say.
Brett, David Adams is injured not Romine.
the core 4 have been together a long time. ya wonder when that will ever happen again.
Tom Gordon 2004:
9-4, 2.21 ERA, 89 2/3 innings, 56 hits, 23 walks, 96 strikeouts.
Good for an absurd .088 WHIP.
Upon further review, he was BETTER than Mariano in 2004.
Please don’t say absurd things without basis.
Pat M. – no need for a Torre debate really. I’m so conflicted about the guy I could probably debate my feelings by myself
I still think Torre mismanaged many a bullpens, but he’s gone now and we have a manager that I believe approaches the arms starkly differently than before.
“I dunno G-C, maybe I blocked out the entire season and only think of Gordon being terrible because thats how he left the team. I still have a hard time blaming the relievers though, when our guys were making the Bosox pitching look unhittable. Eh, thank god we won last year so I can bury those bad memories..”
My dad is the same way. He forgets that Gordon had 2 years of being an unhittable setup man here just because he sucked so much in that series.
Unsung hero in 2004? Tanyon Sturtze. He was the only bullpen arm that got consistent outs in the ALCS.
Laird is the only good 3rd baseman in the system and he’s in an advanced league. Makes no sense to move him unless it’s in a deal for something BIG, and that doesn’t mean Lee. Lee can be bought off for a pot of gold.
Gordon was amazing in 2004, but I’ll never forgive him for puking in the bullpen. Grow a pair.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leade.....38;month=0
Now look up his October numbers……He failed miserably , he was worn out as was Rivera…….The front end of the bullpen was utter crap
GB, I am right there with you on Adams, it was a great pick, he and Laird have much value both in trades and if they keep them.
The Yankees don’t have exactly have holes on their team, so unless they are trading these guys for big time arms to maybe help in the bullpen, or a young 4th outfielder type who is much better than what they have, it makes no sense to trade these guys.
Yeah, I know Nova’s on the 40 man. If NYY keeps him, I’d let him be the long guy in the pen or pitch just in front of Robertson. I believe he’ll be moved by the winter meetings, though.
GB-
That sounds like a plan to me regarding Laird.
He seems to be forcing the issue and I guess that is a good thing.
They will be burning the midnight oil for a while trying to figure who to protect and who to trade.
It’s a great problem to have and I suspect there will be some interesting returns.
Would you support the idea of Minors-to-Minors swaps ?
Is that sort of thing done ?
For instance, we trade a decent pitching prospect to a team who needs that and we get one of their better Infield prospects such as a SS in return.
Igawa hs 1 more year left after this one. Laird is not very good defensively from what I understand. I would put Stoneburner on that list of untouchables as well.His stuff is plain filthy. I could see them trying to sign Lee as insurance in case CC opts out after next season. I do beleieve Andy will come back unless the Yanks win the WS this year. If that happens, I think he will retire, content to go out a winner.
Doesn’t Joba have the most appearences so far this season ????
I think the chemistry started to change once the young guys like Robbie and Melky were brought up, instead of trying to get every fading super star like Sheff/Lofton/Johnson/Brown etc…too many egos in the club house. I like the mix of last year’s and this team, veterans, key acquisitions, young guys like GGBG and Cisco.
Good for Arod not taking the bait, all he needs to do is flash his WS ring
Hard to believe that NYYs found Laird with a 27th round pick. He’s hit from Day 1. He just keeps getting better, and, not just a late bloomer.
Eventually bringing up Laird, and moving Alex to full time DH solves two problems. Even if not, I say we find a place for guys like Laird, in the OF if nothing else.
G-C
“My dad is the same way. He forgets that Gordon had 2 years of being an unhittable setup man here just because he sucked so much in that series.”
I like your dad. We operate the same way. If you win, we’ll only remember you won. If you lose, we don’t forget that you lost.
Like I said though, the loss in 2004 pretty much HAS to fall on everyone’s shoulders. You can’t collapse like that without everyone doing their part.
Joe,
So far Cano, Hughes, Joba, Gardner, Robertsen, Cervelli (to some extent) all won a title together last year.
It’s not out of the realm of possibility that group of young home grown players are going to win multiple championships as Yankees.
Granted, they are not hall of famers like Jeter and Mo and borderline hall of famers like Jorge, Andy and I’ll even throw Bernie in there, but there is a foundation of young players who came up through the system who will be here for awhile if they meet expectations.
Oh and I was not talking about trading Laird or Adams for what I suggested, more the Nova’s Nunez’s and Phelps.
Phelps again though like Adams and Laird is raising his value, all he has done is produce as a very high level, so including him would have to get a young guy who can help the Yankees now back.
“I like your dad. We operate the same way. If you win, we’ll only remember you won. If you lose, we don’t forget that you lost.”
Ha, that is the way he thinks
Get this, he was at Game 5 of the 2001 WS (the Brosius off Kim and Paul O’Neill game), and has no recollection of it. None. The ticket is framed in my room and everytime the game is referenced I have to remind him that he was indeed there.
It really is a shame that Laird didn’t get picked for the Futures Game….NOBODY is more deserving!
Patrick from CT June 24th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
Chip, I hope you’re right and The Yankees do add 2 big pieces next year.
I just don’t see how if they keep the same or lower the pay roll.
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Simple – Sign Jeter to a 2 year 20 million contract (or 3 year 27 million)- saving 11 million dollars per year – even at 10 mill per year Jeter will still be grossly overpaid for the 2 years that they will be paying for his rapidly declining skills
Sign MO on a year to year contract at 10 million per year – saving 5 million per year – as much as he is God like – its bad bad business giving a 42 year old closer 15 million per year – 10 milliojn is way too high as well but he is God afterall.
thats your $16 million to help pay for Lee and/or the bump up in arbitration salaries
also doesn’t AROD’s salary actually go down next year?
GB, I think you are correct with Nova, if I was the Yankees I might just DFA Gaudin now, and bring him up to see if he could be the long man/ 6/7 guy.
I understand why they don’t, he is pitching better and better, and he might be opening their eyes, while at the same time improving his value to other teams.
i love the idea of watching players on the yankees that i may have seen play in trenton. Dont get me wrong, i like the alex’s and tex’s of the team, but there is just something different about a player you watched threw the minors (Cano, The Core, Melky/Gardner, Cervelli, Mo, Pettitte, even Shelley Duncan). This is why i pull for guys like Laird, Montero and Romine, Austin Jackson, etc… It’s just a different feeling.
Re: Cliff Lee
I have a question.
I have heard it proposed that if he could be had for 4/75 that was a good deal.
I agree but I say it takes at least 5 years and possibly more money AAV.
What does anybody else think ?
Laird’s hitting about .200 with the bases empty this year, .386 with runners on and .422 with runners in scoring position this year….before today. Leads the league runs scored, RBI, Home Runs, total bases, 3 doubles behind the leader, 2 hits behind the leader and in the top 10 in slugging, OPS. Only reason he’s not near the top is the low walk totals, but, then, he doesn’t strike out a lot, either. He hit a little slum late last week that dropped his average under .300, but, it’s at .293.
He also leads all of Pro Baseball in RBI.
Simple – Sign Jeter to a 2 year 20 million contract (or 3 year 27 million)- saving 11 million dollars per year – even at 10 mill per year Jeter will still be grossly overpaid for the 2 years that they will be paying for his rapidly declining skills
Sign MO on a year to year contract at 10 million per year – saving 5 million per year – as much as he is God like – its bad bad business giving a 42 year old closer 15 million per year – 10 milliojn is way too high as well but he is God afterall.
thats your $16 million to help pay for Lee and/or the bump up in arbitration salaries
also doesn’t AROD’s salary actually go down next year?
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UHHHH WHAT! You think we are holding Jeter at 2/20? In what world? He will get 20/year for 3 or 4 years, and Mo will get his 15 M (either year to year, or 2/30 with option for 3rd).
Would you agree with these 2 lists of untouchables vs. trade bait?
Untouchables:
Montero
Romine
Brackman
Betances
Potential untouchables:
Jose Ramirez
Heathcott
Baneulos
Gary Sanchez
JR Murphy
Trade Bait:
Eduardo Nunez
Brandon Laird
Noesi
McAllister
Stoneburner
David Phelps
David Adams
Adam Warren
Nova
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so you have all 4 of their minor league stud catchers as either untouchable or potential untouchable? You realize you can only play 1 catcher at a time in the big leagues right?
I understand why they don’t, he is pitching better and better, and he might be opening their eyes, while at the same time improving his value to other teams.
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I think the Yankees still believe Gaudin can be a legitimate asset.
While the results aren’t there Gaudin has pitched as well, if not better, than he ever has this year.
31 strikeouts against 12 walks in 31 innings. He’s due for a correction ERA wise and its coming, as his last six innings have indeed been scoreless.
Laird is not ready for AAA, much less MLB. Rodriguez is still playing a more than acceptable defensive 3rd base. They aren’t ready to put him out to DH pasture yet.
There is a reason Torre ‘had all the right things go right’ for him from 1996-2003 and he currently works for the Rays: Don Zimmer.
I posted this yesterday, it was mentioned to me that The Mariners have dispatched two scouts to watch some Yankee farm games with special attention to their backstops….
Who’s the fella w Torre in pic?
Laird is not ready for AAA, much less MLB. Rodriguez is still playing a more than acceptable defensive 3rd base. They aren’t ready to put him out to DH pasture yet.
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Years away, but an option in a few years IF alex continues to have leg issues. If not, get Laird in LF. Find a place. I definitely agree arod is no where near this point YET.
also doesn’t AROD’s salary actually go down next year?”
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Arod’s salary goes down 1 mil from 32 to 31 mil next season but it doesn’t really matter as for luxury tax purposes it’s always calculated at the AAV which is 27.5 mil.
He is set to get a 6mil$ bonus for hitting 660 HR’s and it looked like he could do that in 2011 but I don’t really see him hitting 68 HR’s between now and the end of 2011.
G-C – That’s pretty unbelievable about your dad, but I don’t blame him. 2001 was literally the worst year of my life. In the same year, both my favorite baseball and hockey teams made it to Game 7 of the finals and lost. The scars have yet to heal lol… but another championship this year my ease the pain.
they can look at our catchers all they want pat, they just can’t have any.
Michael Miliken (sp?) is in the pic. Former Wall St. Junk Bond wiz in 80s (also spent time in prison I believe). Now spokesperson for fighting cancer.
I’d be willing to bet that in a trade that Pena and/or Luis Nunez goes befoe Eduardo Nunez goes in a deal. He one of the top International League shortstops. He’s the perfect understudy for Jeter next year and replace Pena as the utility infielder.
Jeter 2 yrs for $20 million? That’s disrespectful. Yankees are too smart to ever think of insulting Jeter like that.
Thnx Nyyroc
UHHHH WHAT! You think we are holding Jeter at 2/20? In what world? He will get 20/year for 3 or 4 years, and Mo will get his 15 M (either year to year, or 2/30 with option for 3rd).
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I didn’t say thats what will happen, but thats what is fair market value for a 38 year old SS and a 42 year old closer. Actually thats MORE than fair market value. If Jeter and MO were true Yankees they would put the team before their own ego’s & THEY’D go to cashman and say “look we have more than enough money for the next 200 years of our lives and our kids, kids, kids lives” give us a fair market value contract and use the extra money to go sign Lee, Crawford and whomever else you see fit to help win a few more WS’s” – the caveat would be that they’d have to use the extra money on players and not have that money hungry twit hal steinbrenner pocket the money..
but of course we know that won’t happen – the home team discount only happens in boston.
Pat M-
I think the M’s can look all they want because I don’t believe the Yankees would trade for Lee do you ?
They can simply wait him out and outbid everyone else if they wish to. Why pay twice.
I know you are just trying to be the messenger but it doesn’t seem to make much sense for the M’s to do that. The chances of the Yankees doing that would seem to be remote at best.
Your thoughts ?
“not have that money hungry twit hal steinbrenner pocket the money..”
Yankee fans are lucky that Hal Steinbrenner is part of that family.
I fear that if it was up to Hank this team could be in the Dolans’ hands by 2015.
Pat M. June 24th, 2010 at 3:42 pm
I posted this yesterday, it was mentioned to me that The Mariners have dispatched two scouts to watch some Yankee farm games with special attention to their backstops….
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We know where they’ll start and I’d just say “No deal”. Now, if they want to talk Gil, Abeita, etc, ok. Add one of them in and build it around young arms like a Mcallister or Nova plus a middle infielder. NYY really has no outfielders to deal, but, I wouldn’t include Laird in the deal. As I said, he the best and only advanced league 3rd sacker NYY has. Suttle is a brutal third baseman.
who are these mythical players in boston that have given home team discounts?
pat m,
are the yankees looking at the m’s system?
There’s no way on earth Jeter and Rivera are taking huge pay cuts. That’s a non-starter.
I expect Pettite OR Vazquez back, but not both. Hughes is pretty well established now and the No. 5 slot can be handled from within reasonably well.
The almost certain departure of Nick Johnson, the $ 5 Million cut in Alex’s salary and the savings from losing Pettite or Vazquez gives the Yanks plenty of cash with which to add a high quality bat and possible bullpen reinforcement(s) — if Joba starts.
I don’t think there is a true “untouchable” in the organization. You tell me there is not one in baseball that you would trade Jesus Montero for? I think the Yanks price tag on the guy would be pretty high, but if Toronto just had to have Montero and would give up Ricky Romero for him you’d have to be insane not to do it. As valuable as a young bat is, there’s nothing more valuable than a quality, cost controlled starting pitcher.
The key is not holding on to every prospect. The key is deciding the price below which you will not move them. That way you get maximum value either on your team or in a transaction. Only recently have the Yanks learned to value not only the talents of young players but the financial rewards associated with that talent.
Exactly GB I agree about Nunez having more value to the Yanks than I think most think…he’ll be harder to pry away from the Yanks that most believe….
He’s the only in house insurance we have to Jeter being out for an extended period of time and he looks like a real player as well…..
Suttle is a much better player both with the glove and the bat than you give him credit for GB
By the way ARod is on pace to hit 22 HR’s this season.
Now I don’t believe that he will continue on this rather slow pace but if he does for the remainder of his contract, he will end up hitting 760 HR’s.
Bonds has 762.
Irreverent Discourse June 24th, 2010 at 3:54 pm
who are these mythical players in boston that have given home team discounts?
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lester, youkilis, pedrioia and to an extent mike lowell a few years back
The Yanks wouldn’t trade Montero for Romero straight up ‘bro…
RAB has a good post up about trades that almost happened invovling Mariano.
After 97, the Mariners were looking to unload Randy Johnson. George offered up Mo for a straight 1 on 1 swap. Seattle declined but asked for Mo and Pettitte. Yanks declined. I would have declined too. But it’s not a no brainer.
The Expos also asked for Mo, Posda and Eric Milton for Pedro.
I think the Yanks made the right choice in both situations, but in each case they would have gotten back one of the 15 best pitchers ever. But they would have given up a HOFer and another borderline HOFer to do it. Interesting stuff.
http://riveraveblues.com/2010/.....ent-937484
ID
how about Mike Lowell and Bronson Arroyo just off the top of my head.
The Yankees will more than get their money’s worth whatever they pay Jeter. Think of all the seats they can fill & merchandise they can sell as he approaches 3000 hits.
none of those guys gave the RedSox hometown discounts…the RedSox bought out their arb years and 1 FA year early as in the first 2 years of each guys careers and each took the immediate pay raise and guaranteed millions for the potential of more $ on the backend….
Not one of those guys for the RedSux has seen free agency yet.
MTU……..I think the Yanks would make a deal for Cliff Lee under the right circumstances…….Clearly they’d have to be granted time to work out a new contract, once the pieces are in place…….The key is, does Cashman & Hal believe they have the pieces in place to repeat without Phil Hughes in the rotation come October ??? If not then they’ll start to listen to what Seattle has to say……..I agree with GB, there is no way can they lose Laird……But if they lock up Lee with Austin or Montero as the center piece, well then that is something to bring to the boardroom for discussion…….
but of course we know that won’t happen – the home team discount only happens in boston.
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There is hometeam discounts and there are insults. 10 for Mo is reasonable, but 10 for Jeter?
who are these mythical players in boston that have given home team discounts?
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Youkilis apparently….. Not anyone else from what i have seen.
Houston has whacked Cain all over the yard today. 2.2 innings 9 hits, 7 runs (all earned), 2 walks and 2 homers allowed
champ – don’t want to get into a numbers discussion with you but for what youkilis, pedrioia and lester are getting paid they would have easily passed it in arbitration and then would have broken the bank once they reached free agency (hence hometown discount)- i agree they took the money in case of injury – but its still dumb – then again no one ever accused a redsox player of being intelligent
Champ809 —- I would, ‘bro. An outstanding major league starting pitcher who is lefty, young and cost controlled versus a minor league catcher with potential… no question.
Most of the so-called home team discounts for the Sawx involved young guys taking less over years in exchange for more up front. It’s a smart strategy… IF you pick the right guys to give the $$$ to. Worked great for the Yanks with Dave Righetti years ago and it looks like it will pay off big with the Cano contract.
Cleveland had success with Manny and others the same way. I suspect the Yanks will try and tie up Hughes the same way this off-season, giving him more for 2011-12 in exchange for him making less than he might have in 2013-14.
It’s all about sharing risk/reward.
Taking less than the highest offer (Lowell) is not necessarily a home-team discount. It’s more a matter of deciding it isn’t worth X dollars to make the change.
Pat M.-
I respect your opinion. I am just surprised to hear you say what you did.
You must think the Yankees really, really want Lee and fear that they might not be able to get him thru FA.
I can believe that they would want him badly but the other part makes me wonder.
And why do you think Phil could not be available for the post-season ?
Innings limits ? Other ?
By the way. I do not trade Montero at this point. Period.
ac1 –
21 million dollars for a 38 yr old ss is highway robbery. How many SS’s can you name that are getting paid more than 10 million dollars. Its not an insult when you are still the highest paid SS in the game at 10 mill per year at 38 years old.
What these quotes show is that the players are loyal to the manager than the logo.
Its also interesting no quotes were collected from the 100s of players who Torre never admitted to his circle.
yeah, it’s really dumb for a guy who battled cancer to grab long term financial security.
MTU…….I think Phil could be in the pen come October……Remember if they play into November, Phil could be looking at 5 additional starts…..He’ll be in the pen, and there’s no way will we ever see 3 starters going all the way again in the postseason…..It’s something they’ll have to consider if it even gets to that point……..Lee would be cheaper to deal with now rather than in December in my opinion
Betsy – I’m so glad you came back, I was wondering where you’ve been. Don’t let those evil people break your spirit, you have ideas and thoughts that human beings haven’t even thought of yet. You are the type of person blesses the human race every 50 or so years.
Think big, like Einstein, Nietzsche, Amelia Earhart, Lara Croft, you are too smart to let people keep you down.
You are on that short list of great people. Keep up the good work, the great ideas you have please don’t stop sharing them within this core group of Yankee fans. We will always support you.
I’d like to nominate you for a nobel prize. If Obama can win one for two weeks worth of work, you can win one too.
Betsy, this Buds for you!!!!!