Pitching matchups in Los Angeles
Posted by: Chad Jennings - Posted in Misc on Jun 25, 2010 
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All times are Eastern.
Tonight
LHP CC Sabathia (8-3, 3.68)
vs.
RHP Vincente Padilla (1-1, 6.67)
10:10 p.m., YES Network
Saturday
RHP A.J. Burnett (6-6, 4.83)
vs.
RHP Hiroki Kuroda (6-5, 3.06)
7:10 p.m., FOX
Sunday
LHP Andy Pettitte (9-2, 2.48)
vs.
LHP Clayton Kershaw (7-4, 3.24)
8:05 p.m., ESPN
As I’m sure you remember, Phil Hughes was supposed to start the opener of this series, but he was bumped back to cut down on his innings.
Associated Press photo of Sabathia
Man AJ’s numbers stand out like a sore thumb between CC’s and Andy’s.
Padilla has a habit of hitting Tex.
Padilla has a habit of hitting Tex.
__
Didnt AJ get suspended for retaliating after Padilla hit Tex in Texas (or YS) last year?
Lol Pat and Presidente are going to fight online.
Tickets available at 1030 on stubhub.
I predict AJ enjoys his time in SoCal and pitches well.
yes AJ got suspended and Padilla got fined, but no suspension. My guess is he is not such a tough guy pitching in a NL park w/ CC on the mound, or at least that is my hope, I don’t want to see any of our guys injured.
“In the end, everybody is where they should be. The Yankees are the defending champs, Arod is a WS hero, and Torre is in LA spinning stories and selling books. He has a more dysfunctional ownership to deal with now than he ever had in NY.
Some would say that?s karma at its best.”
No matter how one feels about the Torre and the Yankees saga, this is the best summary of it all. It’s over. Time for everyone to move on.
The good thing about the games being in LA and on national TV Saturday and Sunday is that I can get all my work done during the day.
BFKAD June 25th, 2010 at 10:22 am
Lol Pat and Presidente are going to fight online.
Tickets available at 1030 on stubhub.
—————–
mick and I will personally see to it that all LoHud regulars get the best positioning (under the Paul O’Neill banner).
Until Tuesday of this week, fans who wanted to purchase a ticket to this weekends Yankees/Dodgers game could only do so buying a 7 or 14 game pack.
Anyone in the crowd wearing pinstripes either paid a premium for the tickets on the secondary market or made a multiple game commitment for Dodgers tickets.
I know the Yankees had funky rules like this for Old Timers Day but do the Yankees do this for Mets, Sox or other teams?
Patrick-
Bernie could only DH, Matsui could only play LF and DH, Melky could only play LF, Sheffield could only play 1B/DH, Giambi could only play 1B/DH. That was the problem, I can’t blame Joe going the way he did.
I can see the Yankees sweeping the series. That of course, assuming we get the good AJ saturday which by the way it’s about time for the good AJ to show up.
Anybody tried those breakfast sandwiches at Panera… They are really good.
Pat,
Not that I know of. Rays charge premium prices for every game against premier teams but idk that the Yankees do. All my Yankees sox tickets are priced the same.
so if AJ surrenders the yogurt on saturday again, do you skip his turn in the rotation next week with the day off on Monday and Hughes coming back in the seattle series?
SJ44 June 25th, 2010 at 9:27 am
If the Yanks had won that game then it would have been deemed a Maddon moment of great coaching by shaking things up!
BTW – Padilla has to bat too this time! Perhaps a plunk back or the fear of it might keep him honest this time!
BTW – Padilla has to bat too this time! Perhaps a plunk back or the fear of it might keep him honest this time
___
Hoping the yankees hit him so hard in the first and second innings that he never makes it to his AB.
BTW – Padilla has to bat too this time! Perhaps a plunk back or the fear of it might keep him honest this time
*****
not if he’s down 8 – 0 in the 3rd inning with his turn at bat coming up in the bottom of the inning and him knowing full well he’ll be pinch hit for.
Yankees facing Vincente Padilla tonight, hope they like playing dodge ball, he’s a hot head!
With the Rays and Socks in a stumbling mode, it’s an ideal time for Burnett to to get his pitching act together.
Bernie could only DH, Matsui could only play LF and DH, Melky could only play LF, Sheffield could only play 1B/DH, Giambi could only play 1B/DH. That was the problem, I can’t blame Joe going the way he did.
—
Let’s do a 2006 ALDS game 5 GTLU
Dang what happened to my boy Presidente? I thought I was supposed to put my money where my mouth is and put up or shut up.
I put up, he shut up. How does that work out?
blake, what do they call those bfast sammiches at panera?
maddon showed what a wise ass he is by showing up that ump by yelling at garza
Brackman making his AAA debut tonight I think….I guess Banuelos will debut in Tampa this weekend as well
Brackman making his AAA debut tonight I think….I guess Banuelos will debut in Tampa this weekend as well
——————
AA for Brackman
Still trying to stomach the fact that Peter Gammons indirectly compared Daniel Nava to the likes of Youkilis, Lance Berkman, Chase Utley and Todd Helton in his latest Boston slobberfest article about how there’s another Yaz potentially coming to Boston someday.
I’m sorry, but there’s a lot of great stories in major league baseball that are far more interesting than a college player who was related to a Red Sox great.
Embarrassing. I really have to force myself to stop reading him.
G. Love did you expect anything different from Peter Gammons? The guy is the biggest Boston homer in the world
Theoretically, the Yankees should be able to win CC and Pettitte’s starts, but if AJ is good AJ then there’s a distinct possiblity of a sweep. I’d be happy with 2 of 3 tho.
Gammons is a glorified beat writer for the Sox these days.
Pretty big development in the Lebron sweepstakes with the Bulls clearing enough cap space to sign two max salary guys. If winning now is really the most important thing to Lebron then he and another top FA could go to Chicago and realistically win a title next season.
everyone see the new Rescue Me trailer that Jeter is in? I got chills watching it, brought back postseason memories
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALCVGFmh6rQ
BTW, the Yankees’ schedule looks awfully brutal the next two weeks going from the west coast after the dodgers, back home to play seattle and toronto and then immediate fly out to the west coast again without a day off to play oakland and seattle. Thankfully the ASB is after that and then a nice home stand for three series’. But honestly, if they win all those series’ I’d be thrilled.
Buster_ESPN Heard this: The Yankees’ focus remains on trade pieces besides Cliff Lee. Their starting pitching is strong; they will monitor other needs.
7 minutes ago via web
Sunny615:
Don’t sleep on Kershaw. That could be a battle. Good young pitcher. If he’s throwing strikes, he won’t be easy to beat.
Gammons has been drinking early. He’s fully out of the closet as an unashamed Boston hoot.
I hope daniel nava wins as many championships as the great Yaz
And Buster Olney has given us the least informative tweet in history
I was reading through the comments and someone put it best.
The Cincinnati Reds are leading the central. The Texas Rangers are leading the west. The Mets have come back from the dead.
And Gammons writes an article about Yaz’s grandson who isn’t even in professional baseball yet (but who Boston had drafted last year) and then within the article tries to draw a comparison from Nava to some of the great talents in the game and Nava’s been up about 2 weeks.
Like I said, I have to stop reading him. It’s like smacking myself in the face with a frying pan.
G. Love
Either you like pain or don’t hit too hard.
If Torre is smart, he’ll have someone reach out to Al BEFORE he tries to shake his hand in view of reporters or cameras.
I’m fairly certain Alex doesn’t take well to “fatherly” types and was at the time very hard to manage. But it was wrong for Torre to punish Alex because Torre wasn’t better able to manage the guy.
Frankly, I hope Al sticks to his guns. If he feels that Torre did him wrong, and only those two know for sure, I hope he lets Torre know point blank and clears the air.
Kershaw is a stud. Look at his hits and Ks per nine. Padilla has ability if he can keep it together and the Yankees have had trouble with Japanese pitchers who change speeds. I think it will be a tough series on the road.
Murphydog
The problem with that situation is that Arod will probably be the one to get the bad press if things don’t go well.
Hope yanks get to face Braden again when they get to Oakland. WOuld love to see Arod take him deep and then take his time going around the bases.
The Yanks are down to three switch-hitters in the starting lineup, and actually started the season with four left-handed hitters. Despite that, they’ve posted an .814 OPS against lefties in 33 percent of their plate appearances. <b?The mark against righties isn’t great, .796, but considering the league-wide offensive drought that’s still a very good mark. The AL as a whole has a .748 OPS against righties and a .723 mark against lefties. Part of the Yankees’ offensive success this year, it seems, is taking advantage when facing a lefty.
http://riveraveblues.com/2010/...../#comments
Maine,
I think I like pain. I know the minute I click on his link that I’m going to grimmace, lol.
I need some kind of child blocking software that will protect me from Peter Gammons articles.
As the Yankees’ manager, Torre spoke at the beginning of each spring training to the players about keeping their disputes in-house, about respecting each other even where there were differences. He sometimes chastised reporters when he felt that probing questions went too far, and were too salacious for his sensibilities. Folks within the organization didn’t always agree with Torre’s managerial decisions — no team has a complete consensus — but they always felt that he kept his dignity.
So when Torre took aim at others in his book, selling memories of in-house disagreements that he had always talked about hiding from public view, the collective opinion of him changed forever within the Yankees’ organization. They found his portrayal of particular events to be fiction. They thought he unnecessarily demonized the Steinbrenner sons. They were stunned by how he torpedoed general manager Brian Cashman, who had shielded him through the years from the wrath of George Steinbrenner and been his strongest advocate. And they were appalled by what they viewed as cheap shots at the likes of Alex Rodriguez and Kevin Brown and Carl Pavano; in Pavano’s case, Torre was in a unique position to know that all of his injuries were legitimate. In short, they came to view him as a hypocrite.
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb.....id=5327195
MaineYankee:
I hear you. Alex has been his own worst enemy for a long time and hence the bad press. But let’s not forget that Torre is a ripe target on his return for the book and other things. Seems Cash has cut him dead, which goes in Alex’s favor, frankly. It’s not just Alex that had trouble with Torre after the book. Maybe with a ring and numbers fitting a champion last year, Alex will get the benefit of the doubt and the goat will be Torre. Even better…. wouldn’t it be nice if the two worked it like Jim Joyce and Armando Galarraga?
G. Love June 25th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Maine,
I think I like pain. I know the minute I click on his link that I?m going to grimmace, lol.
I need some kind of child blocking software that will protect me from Peter Gammons articles.
———————————————————————————
Kinda like people complaining about what Francessa has to say but still listen to him.
murph,
First off, welcome back. Haven’t seen you around of late.
As for your thought, I’m not sure Arod would be receptive to that since it would look like Torre was controlling the process. I think Arod would know that Torre would later leak that he was the one who brokered the peace and couldn’t trust him.
If Arod truly has changed and moved on, he should shock the you know what out of Torre and walk over and give him a hug and then if he wants whisper whatever he really wants to say to him into his ear with a big smile on his face.
It’s a game between these two men. I don’t think it’s in the past.
If it were, this wouldn’t be an issue of sorts right now.
“In short, they came to view him as a hypocrite.”
—————————-
Sounds right to me.
Cito Culver is makin his pro debut today for the GCL team. Is 0-1 so far. Banuelos on the mound, probably headed back to High A Tampa after this start.
murphydog
The press is also like sharks that smell blood in the water.
Arod has been such an easy target that it’s to easy for the press to continue trying to make him look bad.
I’m not sure the press is ready to make Joe their target on the neg. side.
I see Peter Gammons is up to his typical PR work for the Red Sox. It really is hard to tell which Red Sox prospect is good because of all the overhype.
That’s my issue with Torre. He was very loud and proud about keeping things in house.
I was livid when they didn’t bring him back despite the feelings that I had that he had lost his edge and was excluding talented players from his inner circle.
I still was on a soapbox on the blog when Pete was running it about how upset I was that Torre was gone.
And then he wrote that book and I lost all my respect for him.
He didn’t need the money. He didn’t need to strike while the iron was hot as some have said.
He wrote that book to punish the Yankees and embarrass some of his players over the years.
Was he right to have those feelings? Absolutely. Randy Levine comes off as a pompous fool and I can only imagine having to answer to him as a boss and let him talk to me about baseball.
But he didn’t need to put it out there like he did.
One of the best pieces of advice anyone ever gave me in my life was to, “Think fast, but talk slow”.
Torre should have held his tongue.
Rishi, thanks for posting those two paragraphs.
Betraying someone’s trust is pretty bad. Given how close Cash and Torre were in those years, the fact that they haven’t spoken since the split-up, and the very few public remarks Cash has made about Torre and the book, makes it appear that these stories do have some basis in fact.
Torre made a major mistake with the book, IMO. Seems he tried to cash in quickly, thus he – and we as fans and readers – lost the benefit Torre would have gained from a longer perspective on his Yankee years. Writing the book then was wrong in the way that drinking a red wine too soon is wrong. He can try to lay it off on Verducci all he wants – no offense to Verducci who is a fine writer- but it was Torre’s name and his insider content that sold the book.
Had he waited a few years and, among other things, seen A-Rod get his ring, would he have felt differently about how he treated the guy, had a chance to make amends and admit a few more mistakes beyond not taking the team off the field in Cleveland during the “attack of the midge”?
I see Peter Gammons is up to his typical PR work for the Red Sox..
Peter Gammons works for NESN, and the Red Sox at this point. He sometimes writes articles and has fill-in TV time for other platforms, but if you can’t look at what he writes with a hard line of knowledge that he’s going to do what he can for that organization, then don’t read it.
Why read it, the disagree and cry about it. If it looks like a duck, it is one. Just accept it, ignore it, and move on.
Jesus. It’s like reading LoHud, and complaining because it’s so Yankee-centric. The man has a clear and apparent motive behind everything he does. If you don’t like it, don’t read it.
admit a few more mistakes beyond not taking the team off the field in Cleveland during the ?attack of the midge??
Were they the only team on the field at the time?
no problem, Joe – there is more in there, but I think those were the key paragraphs
I believe it was Kim Jones on a pregame a few weeks ago that asked Alex about Torre and he said he was looking forward to the series and would say hello and wish him well for the season except when they played them.
Not sharing his thoughts with the media this week doesn’t necessarily mean he’s harboring ill will. Maybe he just didn’t want to disect past drama again.
rishi,
unreal. thanks for posting. torre really threw people under the bus. he broke his own rules and made himself look pretty stupid.
i always thought he was a great manager, dealing with george and all of the player’s egos. but i always thought that he had a support system to enforce his policies, cashman and zimmer. turns out he really didn’t appreciate those two because he disrespected them to the nth degree.
it’s really a shame because torre probably could have taken a front office job, put in minimal effort and gotten 10x more money from the yankees than he did for that stupid book.
G. Love
I was more bothered how the seperation was handled than the fact they parted ways.
I liked the job Joe did but as I thought things out I felt it was time.
It’s easy to put the blame on the big bad Yankees but I think both sides share blame. It doesn’t seem as though Joe is willing to accept his part in the breakup.
Not sharing his thoughts with the media this week doesn?t necessarily mean he?s harboring ill will..
That, and everything that A-Rod says to the media is blown so out of proportion, he often comes off looking like the self-loving, drug abusing cretin of society that baseball world likes to project him as.
The smartest thing A-Rod could do is limit anything he ever says to anyone, and sooner or later, they’ll learn to just leave him alone and stop the bloodhound search on his character.
Aaron
I know that. All I was saying was that he makes every Red Sox prospect seem like the second coming of some great and that it makes it hard to figure out which Red Sox prospect is good or bad. I don’t really read his articles and I don’t get mad. I just laugh because he is so pathetic.
Just to be clear, Torre didn’t write the book. He gave Tom Verducci information to put in the book.
Patrick…
Just to be more clear:
“Torre has sometimes hid behind his co-author on the book, Tom Verducci, saying that Verducci learned a lot of the details contained within the book. But the people he left behind in the Bronx will never accept that excuse; Torre’s name is on the cover, and it was his choice whether to include the passages that painted A-Rod, Pavano, Cashman and others in a negative light.”
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb.....id=5327195
good points about Torre.
G Love- that about sums up my feelings
murphydog- good to see you here again…is there a new murphydog in your household?
“Part of the Yankees’ offensive success this year, it seems, is taking advantage when facing a lefty.”
And yet, the Yanks are 31-15 in games started by an opposing RHP, and only 14-12 in games started by an opposing LHP.
“Just to be clear, Torre didn’t write the book. He gave Tom Verducci information to put in the book.”
He got co-author credit and cashed the check. The rest is splitting hairs.
I read the book and, in the context of sports books, it seemed perfectly innocuous to me.
Rishi,
Thanks for that. I think that excerpt pretty much sums up how a lot of us felt about Torre and the book.
There’s Buster video talking about the Torre/Yankees rift, too. Haven’t gotten to it yet.
I want to win this series and move on.
As for the parties involved, Torre’s the one that’s squirming on the hot seat. He said some things, retracted some other things, and now is defending the things he retracted. So, in that sense, I welcome this series and the “sunshine” that accompanies it.
During Torre’s tenure there was an iron curtain separating the clubhouse and the public. Torre felt it was acceptable to share some of the more embarrassing details after he left. That’s his right. But how would he feel if someone wrote a book and wrote all kinds of personal details about him and his performance? The way he shielded himself from criticism (iron curtain/blackballing critics), I think he’d have a different opinion on what’s acceptable for public consumption.
Rishi,
Yeah I just read that entry after you posted the link. I am a Torre fan so I give Joe the benefit of the doubt.
The “core 4″ stick with Torre because he’s done far more good for them than bad. I have the same attitude. This is the guy that led the team to 4 championships and many more playoff appearances. Sure he made some mistakes along the way and didn’t handle leaving as well as I’d like but I still like the guy for what he’s done.
Jeremy, I get what you’re saying. But, at this point, he is what he is. I don’t laugh at him. He’s a talented writer, and has an immense amount of baseball knowledge, but I also recognize from what entitiy he draws his paycheck, and don’t complain when he tows the line for that organization. The only difference now is that he doesn’t have to hide behind the “fair” or even “rational” burden of working for a real media outlet. The Nava story is a good one for them, and him. I don’t really abuse him for writing about it – yeah, he’s overboard, but no more than the Yankee writers on some of the feel-good stories here, or any other local outlet concentrating on something positive.
Yaz’ relative is another story – I know nothing about him.
I liken it to writing about the white house, while being employed by the white house. There is no way to avoid painting things in a good light for whatever it is you choose to report on.
Has anybody ever read the first book Torre wrote with Tom Verducci?
I don’t blame Verducci at all. He’s a writer, and he wrote what the principle – torre – told him. He’s not Torre’s babysitter, after all. And I don’t blame Torre for writing a book. So what if he wanted more money, it’s the American way.
However, Torre must have known – he’s not dumb, after all – how those stories would go over. He was knowingly burning bridges. Now, maybe he figured the state of his relationships with certain people was bad enough so that he would never get any front office or YES job with the team. To me, that’s a bad call on Torre’s part, given how George likes to keep people in the fold.
But, to betray trust like he did – I’m with GLove – the only reason to do that was to punish people that he had no intention of ever needing again.
That does not reflect well of St. Joe, in my opinion.
I still think this comment from SJ earlier says it best: ?In the end, everybody is where they should be. The Yankees are the defending champs, Arod is a WS hero, and Torre is in LA spinning stories and selling books. He has a more dysfunctional ownership to deal with now than he ever had in NY.
Some would say that?s karma at its best.?
Damn filter… lets try this again
Bobby Cox ripped Jeffrey Loria (owner of the Marlins),
“I know that guy [Loria] is unpredictable, but I was still….After everything [Gonzalez] has done for that guy, are you s—— me?,” Cox told reporters before Wednesday’s game against the White Sox. “[The Marlins] have gone down to the end every year, playing their ass es off. That guy doesn’t appreciate anything. He’s one of those guys that thinks you change [for the sake of change]. He’s always wanting to fire the coaches, always. That’s his history.”
http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/.....iring.html
I think the main problem was the Torre was under the impression that he made the Yankees good, when in reality, the Yankees is the platform which he rode to the top. He’s a lifetime loser of a manager, and so is every other manager without some level of talent.
In the end, Torre thought he was bigger than the talent that supplied him his status, and when he let his own ego beat the ass of common sense, he burned his bridges.
He’ll learn what several other managers in history have learned through the years – without talent, you can’t win. Ask Girrardi, Francona, and several others.
Managers mean squat when there is a talent to ride on the coatails of, and all of Torres little moves were wrong in the end.
I don’t fault him…he just made a mistake and it’s going to haunt him. The onus is on him to right it in the end.
What happened with Torre is done. In a few years, he’ll come back to the stadium and be honored. The problem seemed to be the lowball (Ahem) contract offer he claimed to receive from Hal & Hank. Torre felt he should have been paid according to his past success, when in this neck of the woods you get paid for what you get done now. The goal has always been stated clearly for the entire world to hear. Joe didn’t win it in seven seasons, and therefore was cut loose. He knew all along what he was getting into with coming to the Yankees, and lasted longer than anyone would have ever thought. With that being said, the organization handled his firing as poorly as can be done. Instead of shooting it straight with the guy who brought you four World Series, they tried some lame PR stunt to make it look like Torre was quitting. I hope Hal has learned from the experience, and will handle things better in the future. Getting Hank out of the picture was a big first step. Everyone needs to move on, and leave the past in the past.
Bobby Cox is exactly right.
How did Torre think he was bigger than the talent? Examples…
Patrick,
You’re misunderstanding me; the overall principle of what I’m saying is that Torre thought the fallout of him not being there would be too much for the Yankees, and us, to handle.
He thought he was the master-link on the yankee chain, when in reality, the Yankees could win 95 games a year with 25 current MLB managers.
Joe lost sight of the fact that he was on a train that allowed him to ride an enormous amount of talented, hall of fame even, players to countless wins – not the other way around.
Tom in NJ June 25th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
Has anybody ever read the first book Torre wrote with Tom Verducci?
—————————————————————————-
When was it out? What was the title?
I read one I think in ’99 but I’m not sure who wrote it.
I read Torrre’s book.
It struck me that this was the type of book you write after you retire. He most certainly knew what the repercussions would be.
Can’t hide behind Verducci.
Didn’t stop at Georgia Pig because it was too early . We are in the town of Palm Court . There was a long line at the Cracker Barrel so we passed on that.
But, if you really want, there are countless times where decisions Torre made were because he thought he was smarter than the talent was, well, talented.
Sheffield at first? Batting A-Rod eigth? Not bunting on Schilling?
i have to say – that no bunting on Schilling STILL kills me!
Yes, the firing/quitting/split was embarrassing.
And, yes, Joe had to put up with a lot from George and the Tampa faction.
BUT, he got paid handsomely for his troubles. So, there is no “poor Joe”. There is no “look at the pitching he had!”
And in the end, they didn’t owe Joe anything. They paid him for his services. With the exception of not winning that fifth (or sixth) championship, it worked out well for everyone involved. Torre got his money, the Yankees coffers grew, and the Yankee brand (thanks in part to Torre) grew even bigger.
if I were a Dodger fan I wouldn’t be happy with Torre as manager, from his statements he is treating it as a retirement job, no fire
In other news, Papelbon says he’s “not concerned” about blowing back to back games for his team.
What a d-bag. I hope beyond hope that Joba gets it all turned around before this guy hits the market.
Torre became a celebrity and became bigger than just the manager of the Yankee.
I loved Torre while he was here.
Pinstripe4Life……Well said……This whole Torre vs. Yanks is getting very little play here in LA……..I fully expect Alex and Joe will be fine, NY press will do anything for an angle…….Yanks are going to have their hands full this weekend…..Dodgers who have struggled the past week or so are a very good ballclub….A ballclub that is hungry and will be pumped up to play the World Champions from NYC…….I’ll be heading up to the Ravine for the game tonight……..Vince Scully will be conducting a baseball history class during the weekend, shame is we’ll be stuck with FOX & ESPN……
Aaron June 25th, 2010 at 1:00 pm
That is crap! Torre didn’t think he was above the game! What do you think Mo or Jeter or Posada or Andy would do if the Yanks offered them a 1 yr contract at greatly reduced pay? Face it the Yanks wanted him to go, w/o having to fire him. Torre obliged them!
It use to be Steinbrenner & whoever he named as Mgr!
Then it became Stein & Torre!
Then Torre & Stein!
Then Torre & Cash!
Then Cash & whoever!
This was a power struggle. Cash would always play second fiddle to Torre as long as the 2 were paired. Joe G gets some accolades, but the Cash signings push him over the top in Yankeeland.
The Yanke Brass dismantled Torre, one staff member at a time. As I said earlier the 2 key losses were Zimmer & Stottlemyre! They really hurt!
We sit on a couch & think smugly we understand what is going on and we haven’t a clue. Well, some do! But the Yanks knew they were going for CC, AJ & Tex. If Torre had those 3 he would have been saint Torre.
I’m not misunderstanding you. You are making assumptions about what Torre thinks and I’d like examples to back those assumptions up.
Those examples are just a list of Torre’s bad moves in the playoffs. You can come up with reasons why he made all of those moves. If you recall, our regular 1B that year was Andy freaking Phillips. A-rod had 1 hit the whole series, bunting is stupid. There
i like the arod is avoiding inevitable drama the best he can.
Yikes Giants 3rd round pick, safety Chad Jones, was in a car accident on Friday. Doctors are said to be “currently working to save Jones’ leg”.
if I were a Dodger fan I wouldn’t be happy with Torre as manager, from his statements he is treating it as a retirement job, no fire
—
Especially the part where he talks about watching the Yankees in the dugout in the world series and thinking that he wouldn’t want to be there. Yikes…
Okay, Patrick. You think what you want, and I’ll be happy knowing we didn’t need Joe Torre to win last year. In fact, we didn’t need Joe Torre to win at all. In the end, 200+ million dollars worth of talent wins games – not managers. Joe thought he could make demands, or hold his pride above his head and wave it like a flag, and in the end, the Yankees know what wins games, and it’s not named Joe Torre.
I liked Joe, but it’s not the end of the world. He doesn’t pitch, he doesn’t hit, and very often, he made moves with re: to both of those things.
I wish him, and the Dodgers, the best of luck starting on Tuesday!
“What do you think Mo or Jeter or Posada or Andy would do if the Yanks offered them a 1 yr contract at greatly reduced pay?”
——————————-
They did that with Andy after 2008.
Patrick June 25th, 2010 at 1:11 pm
I bet Torre was thinking about how much H he had to put up with to get there & he didn’t get to enjoy it until it was over!
“# Tom in NJ June 25th, 2010 at 1:10 pm
Yikes Giants 3rd round pick, safety Chad Jones, was in a car accident on Friday. Doctors are said to be “currently working to save Jones’ leg”.
”
very sad. He was a good Football player for LSU also
Aaron,
Obviously the Yanks didn’t need Torre last year…
I’m not saying Torre is the reason the Yanks won 4 championships and made the playoffs a ton. But do they accomplish all of that without Torre? Maybe… maybe not.
I agree that the players matter far more than the manager.
I don’t agree that Torre thought of himself as being bigger than the team. That’s just an unfounded argument and the only way you’d know it were true is if you were Torre himself or his therapist.
LGY June 25th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
Last time I looked they offered Andy $12M+ but for only one yr. They didn’t ofeer him $5M! or $6M. Big difference!
Doreen
Catch the Pig on the way home
What do you think Mo or Jeter or Posada or Andy would do if the Yanks offered them a 1 yr contract at greatly reduced pay??
Also a asanine comment. Mo, Jeter, and Posada are freaking all-star baseball players. Take them away, and there is no team. There is no talent. Do you think for one second the Yankees look at Joe Torre the way they look at Mariano or Jeter? Really? Is that your argument? They wouldn’t offer the greatest closer of all time a one year deal so why did they offer Joe that deal? Please tell me that’s not the comparison you’re drawing upon to prove your point.
Who brought up Andy’s 2009 contract?
It wasn’t just batting ARod 8th that was the problem between those two. He batted him sixth in the first game of the series, which he had never done all year. ARod had to answer all the media questions about that before the series even began.
There was also the “Ha” incident where Joe sold him out. The Verducci article in SI, which was, IMO, a worse betrayal than the book.
Even in the book, Joe reveals that he never treated ARod like an insider – for example he didn’t invite ARod to his Safe at Home dinner until ARod asked him to – and then he mocks ARod in the book for cancelling. For someone whose main (only?) strength was supposed to be people management, his treatment of Alex was just atrocious.
i liked joe and i still do. i wish no ill will for him. And i would love to see LA/Yankees in the WS. That being said, it was clear that Torre became complacent or burned out in his last years. it was time to start fresh for everyone (just wish he waited on his book).
Pat M
I probably will listen to Mr. Scully some during tonights game. That’s one nice thing about Direct TV and their MLB extra innings.
One point about how the breakup went. Not making excuses and not defending either side but when that took place the team was in transition between George and the sons and the positions may not have been clearly defined at that point.
It seems that Hal has taken the control now but it didn’t seem as clear back then.
The Sunday night game should be interesting. Andy Vs Kershaw. Kershaw has great stuff and if he’s on will make it really tough on the Yanks…Andy could match him of course but Pat M is right…this will be a tough series
They didn?t ofeer him $5M! or $6M. Big difference!
Yeah, huge difference. One guy sits ont he bench and decides a batting order. The other is likely a hall of fame pitcher who wins more than his fair share of games for the organization every single year.
How do you not see the difference in value? It’s like picking up steak and hamburger and being freaking confused as to why one is more expensive.
RayVT…….I wish I could been able to articulate as well as you did about HOF Joe Torre……He was power played right out of town……..I’m with you and share the same point of view…….One thing is undeniable, he leaves town the Yanks miss October, however he arrives in LA, and The Dodgers return to October……There’s reasons for this
Here’s the difference. If mo, jeter, posada, or andy were lowballed they could always go play somewhere else.
If a manager is lowballed he can’t just go manage somewhere else. No leverage.
And good for Cox getting all fire and brimstone over Gonzalez’s firing. I was just going to say you lose fire as you get older (talking about Torre), but Cox is proving me wrong!
i liked joe and i still do. i wish no ill will for him. And i would love to see LA/Yankees in the WS. That being said, it was clear that Torre became complacent or burned out in his last years. it was time to start fresh for everyone (just wish he waited on his book).
—
I pretty much feel the same way as you.
and The Dodgers return to October??There?s reasons for this
Yep, and his name was Manny Ramirez, who went on a tear that year that carried the Dodgers right into the playoffs.
RayVT,
Torre made $7.5 million in 2007.
The Yankees offered him $5 million guaranteed with $3 million in incentives. There was also an $8 million option for 2009 that became guaranteed if the Yankees made the WS.
If Torre made the WS in 2008, as is the expectation when you are the Yankee manager, he would have made $16 million over 2 years.
The next highest paid manager in 2008 made $3.5 million. Torre was guaranteed almost double than that.
this series will give us time to point out to people in here why suggesting kemp for cano was dumb.
Or did Torre go to LA, bat fourth, and hit 20HR the second half of the year and change the attitude of the players around him?
The only issues I have with Torre are:
1. He could not manage a bullpen
2. He wasn’t great at adjusting during games or series…he relied heavily on the theory that he had the best players and he was just going to go as far as that talent took him. There wasn’t any strategy in Joe’s game and when Zimmer left, what strategy there was left with him because Torre didn’t trust his coaches. He thought they were being groomed to take his job.
3. He was too loyal to “his guys” and if you weren’t one of his guys he would throw you under the bus (Alex)
4. The way he went out the door trying to make himself out to be a victim. It was weak and transparent
5. Never pitching inside. The Sox hit Yankee players at will and Torre never wanted his guys to retaliate. Odd considering one of his favorite guys to talk about was Bob Gibson.
6. The hypocracy. Joe preached that things that happen in the clubhouse or between the team should stay in the clubhouse and between the team and then would give open access to Verducci and break all those confidences in his book.
this series will give us time to point out to people in here why suggesting kemp for cano was dumb..
How so? Cano is having an awesome year, but Kemp is still a beast as well. I’d call it a push going forward for the two.. It wouldn’t have been dumb or smart. If they had Kemp, they could have picked up a servicable 2B and been just fine. I wouldn’t call it dumb at all.
Both are suprememly talented.
how many will padilla hit tonight?
Having said what I said above, I think Joe was a good manager for the Yankees in that he kept the nonsense coming from above to a minimum…though I still believe that had Buck not resigned the Yankees still would have won the title in 96.
mick June 25th, 2010 at 1:28 pm
how many will padilla hit tonight?
———————-
Tex will get hit at least once.
We continue to watch silently, since you cried to the blog.Have a terrible weekend, and by all means get swept by whomever you play!
Go Dodgers Goodbye crumbs!!
Never pitching inside. The Sox hit Yankee players at will and Torre never wanted his guys to retaliate.
This is a fallacy. Over the past ten years, the numbers are markedly similar to each other. When you include Roger and Pedro, people get hit. Wakefield is responsible for most of them beyond that at like 50%.
I used to think the same way, but in reality, it just seemed that way. There was an article in Sporting News not too long ago about this.
I still can’t get over how he let Jeter & Arod just get plunked like it was part of the game. But then he goes to LA and guys are throwing at his players (playoffs, Phillies?) and Torre’s running up to the top of the dugout and yelling at the other guys.
That scene clearly illustrates how complacent Joe had gotten in New York. It was more country club than ball club.
If Joe T was still here, the new guys would suppress their true personalities. I don’t think the grit, scrappiness, and fight we’ve seen over the last two seasons would’ve come to the surface like it has.
# Chip June 25th, 2010 at 1:29 pm
Having said what I said above, I think Joe was a good manager for the Yankees in that he kept the nonsense coming from above to a minimum…though I still believe that had Buck not resigned the Yankees still would have won the title in 96.
=====================
Are u on with Francesa right now?
I can assure you of a couple of things:
If Padilla drills Yankees tonight, CC may not retaliate, but AJ will tomorrow.
Much easier to find an outfielder with production comparable to Kemp’s than a 2B with comparable production to Cano.
That said they both are really talented and should have bright futures.
Mick -
No but I laughed my head off when I heard someone voicing it. And I completely disagree with Francesa on this one.
AJ can’t afford to retaliate.
He can barely keep anyone off base right now as is.
Youre not Kevin from New Jersey?
Pat M
“One thing is undeniable, he leaves town the Yanks miss October, however he arrives in LA, and The Dodgers return to October??There?s reasons for this”
I don’t think it’s as simple as that. There were things on both sides that affected the results that had nothing to do with Joe.
That being said. I stand in the middle of this issue. I’m not putting all the blame at Joe’s feet, but I also don’t think he was blameless.
I liked the job he did while he was in NY but I think he gets more credit than he deserves at times.
I just wish the media would let this subjet die but we know that won’t happen.
The Philly Phitins June 25th, 2010 at 1:30 pm
We continue to watch silently, since you cried to the blog.Have a terrible weekend, and by all means get swept by whomever you play!
Go Dodgers Goodbye crumbs!!
Hi Betsy!
Pat M. June 25th, 2010 at 1:20 pm
I simply love the Yankees!! LOL! I overlook all their faults, shortcomings & trades or rips. That said, I appreciate the Yanks & all their people as well, whether still in NY or not. Torre a HOF Manager & one of the Great all-time Yankee managers was stiffed. I can live with that! I can’t live with the revisionist who say he was chump change. Did 2008 not happen? Yanks out of the playoffs for the 1st time since Torre got there? Bring in the studs! CC, AJ, Tex & somehow Joe G is now a HOF Mgr? Well, he may end up being one but time will tell. I liked 2009 for the most part. But when he left CC in a game in early April for 125+ pitches and Yanks were winning in a blowout I was upset! He could have killed the golden goose with stuff like that.
What I’m trying to say is try not to micro manage a legend after the fact! Hindsight is an uneven advantage. Should they have bunted on Schilling? Maybe! But how many Yankees could bunt anyway? Has anyone thought that perhaps Joe T wanted to make ARod angry enough to forget thinking & just hit? Not everything a Mgr or anyone does is always right or makes sense afterwards! Go back in time & ask Casey if he should have started Whitey in game 1 of 1960 WS!
Maybe the Yanks should have fired Torre at the end of 2007! But they didn’t have the guts too so they hid under a blanket & low balled him so that Torre would make the decision! No amount of revisionism will change that! It sucked! The fact he wasn’t invited to the Yankee celebration of Yankee Stadium closure & legends after that sucked too. Not even a simple clip of him! That said to me who the real culprit was plain and simple.
I am still a Yankee fan! But as with all fans, a part of my heart broke for Torre when he left!
upstate kate:
Hi. Thanks for asking. No new doggie yet, but we are looking at adult dogs and rescue dogs. Need one already housebroken.
hey murphdog where ya been man?
My final comment on this issue…..So many here are making Joe Torre as some villain, and the Yankee suits as a group of choir boys……….Across the street at the old grounds lie the souls and spirits of many that were shredded by the boys in your choir……..Torre was not without faults, but to point the finger at him for all the failures of the club after 03 is absurd……..Just take a peek at the pitching staffs that he was presented with…..Check out the flexible roster of bloated contracts……It was amazing that he was able to keep the Stadium lite during October
mick:
“how many will padilla hit tonight?”
Exactly one. After that the Yankees retaliate and the umps warn both benches. There is a history with Padilla. I don’t see Girardi tolerating one more hit batsman.
The other problem I would have with Torre is the way he handled Cashman at the end. Brian went to bat for Torre after the Red Sox series, after the Detroit debacle, after all the playoff failures – and Torre acted as if Brian sold him out after the 07 season.
I agree completely with the sentiment that while Torre does deserve credit for the late 90′s Yankees so too do Buck, Stick, Cash, Watson, and George of course.
Jimmy Key and Paul O’Neill changed the Yankees” Mike Francesa
Pat –
I agree with you that the Yankees are wrong to not have Torre at all represented in the new stadium (and I wonder how long it will be before we see someone wearing number 6) but, in my opinion, Torre started this with his sniping on his way out the door and the book and then acted as if he was above it all and had no idea why anyone would have any problems with his actions.
I only hope the Girardi’s tenure as Yankee skipper is as successful as Torre’s.
That would be amazing.
mick:
“how many will padilla hit tonight?”
Exactly one. After that the Yankees retaliate and the umps warn both benches.
========================
Murph
Since we bat 1st and Tex will come up….will we retaliate if the warning is issued in the top 1/2?
Maybe we see Torre run to the top of the steps tonight and yell at the pitcher? And then go check on Jetes to see if he’s okay?
I’m just logging in now, so if anyone used my name earlier, it was NOT me.
I don’t begrudge anyone feeling positively about Torre, but I sure as heck do not want to be called out by anyone as being a whiner/complainer/ungrateful/bad fan because I don’t have warm feelings about Joe. Batting Alex 8th was ridiculous, but beyond that, he did create divisions in the clubhouse. Great – he loved the core guys. I love them too – but the team is made up of more than that core and Torre owed it to everyone on that team to treat them like they WERE part of the team. I found this to be a particular issue after they’d won their last title in 2000; it’s like anyone brought in after that was not a “real Yankee”. When I say “the book”, I practically spit the words out; I despise what Torre did in writing that tome.
Mick -
He’s absolutely correct about that. Key and Gallego coming to the Yankees were huge because until then free agents were turning down Yankee money because of the circus atmosphere.
The O’Neill trade did two things:
1. It brought O’Neill here
2. It solidified that Bernie Williams was going to be the Yankee CF
“admit a few more mistakes beyond not taking the team off the field in Cleveland during the ?attack of the midge??
Were they the only team on the field at the time?”
Torre admitted to roughly one mistake in his book, that was, not taking the Yanks off the field during the attack of the midges. I’m not sure I see your point.
Looking forward to seeing the Yanks and Dodgers this weekend. Will enjoy hearing Vin call the game and watching Ethier, Kemp, Loney and even Manny play. Not looking forward to the Yanks having to face Broxton, he is one of the better young closers in baseball. If it wasn’t for the fact that the games are on Fox and ESPN Saturday and Sunday we would be done with the Joe vs the Yankees crap after the Saturday papers come out. Can’t wait to hear Ken Rosenthal give his spin on Sunday and how Timmy McCarver says Bob Gibson would have put an end to this by throwing at everyone. Bob was Torre’s pitching coach in ATL, he would still buzz him though. Hope Buster and Peter have the weekend off. Also can’t wait for Torre’s dugout interview with the booth.
How did Torre get lowballed?
He was still by far the highest paid manager in the game and had incentives built in that would have given him a pay raise
I saw the contract offer as a compromise in the front office. One segment didn’t want him back and another segment did. They settled on a 1 year deal.
Torre just like a player got offered what he was “worth.” He was coming off a 7 year WS drought and 3 straight first round exits.
He had too big of an ego to take a pay cut, just like Damon.
GLove, who is that kid related to? I like Pete personally a lot, but I don’t read any of his stuff on MLB.
Its ok to be grateful to Torre for what he accomplished and glad he’s coaching in LA now at the same time. Thats what I am.
If some here want to use the poor pitching staff and some of the misfits for the reason that Joe T. didn’t have sucess after 03 they need to allow Joe G. the same for 08.
The team hadn’t turned over very much from 07 to 08.
mick:
“Since we bat 1st and Tex will come up….will we retaliate if the warning is issued in the top 1/2?”
I guess if they warn in the top of the first, you’re right. The Yanks are screwed. I would expect however, that a top of the first inning hit batsman will be passed over by the ump as a potential accident, failure to get warm, kind of thing. Let’s hope cooler heads prevail.
Francesa is not as dumb as some here think.
He actually has a great sports mind and does not shoot from the hip as his ex-partner did, without thinking things through.
He is also a great Yankee fan and plays devil’s advocate to stimulate discussion, that’s his job.
Being objective about the Yankees attracts flies but is realistic.
The incessant crying over Torre is embarrassing and boring…
I guess if they warn in the top of the first, you’re right. The Yanks are screwed. I would expect however, that a top of the first inning hit batsman will be passed over by the ump as a potential accident, failure to get warm, kind of thing. Let’s hope cooler heads prevail.
==================================
Depends on the ump and where he gets hit, I guess.
And if the mound is charged.
LGY,
The terms he turned down looked pretty good (to any other managerial candidate). But at the same time it was only a 1 year extension.
Pat M,
I don’t blame Torre for anything regarding wins/losses. I just think he could’ve done a better job (at times) of protecting his players. All his players. That starts with Joba & the midges. And extends to the treatment of certain players, up to and including the book.
Francesa is not as dumb as some here think.
—
You’re right, he’s probably dumber
Chip June 25th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
The only issues I have with Torre are:
1. He could not manage a bullpen I agree, but he did it great when Mel was pitching Coach! Hmm!
2. He wasn?t great at adjusting during games or series?he relied heavily on the theory that he had the best players and he was just going to go as far as that talent took him. There wasn?t any strategy in Joe?s game and when Zimmer left, what strategy there was left with him because Torre didn?t trust his coaches. He thought they were being groomed to take his job. I agree, but why did Zim leave? Hmm! Also, he did quite a few things not by the book! Joe G does everything by the book? So what did the Yanks gain?
3. He was too loyal to ?his guys? and if you weren?t one of his guys he would throw you under the bus (Alex) I agree somewhat, but he he was upfront with it & said he managed by being fair, but not necessarily equal! Jeter said he admired that quality! Hmm!
4. The way he went out the door trying to make himself out to be a victim. It was weak and transparent I totally disagree! He could have accepted the offer and stayed! Torre took the difficult road & left. I admire him for his decision even though I wish he had stayed.
5. Never pitching inside. The Sox hit Yankee players at will and Torre never wanted his guys to retaliate. Odd considering one of his favorite guys to talk about was Bob Gibson. This is crap too! I know there is a lot of flap about this over the years, but he had pitchers who would not pitch that way, like Mo or Moose! Wells hit guys & so did Clemens! So did Andy! So Randy Johnson. So did others. Ultimately it is up to the pitchers to do it, not a Manager!
6. The hypocracy. Joe preached that things that happen in the clubhouse or between the team should stay in the clubhouse and between the team and then would give open access to Verducci and break all those confidences in his book. I agree somewhat, but Torre wasn’t the only one providing the crap to Verducci that you don’t like! I respect torre still, because the players do. Ultimately that is what matters. Torre was a straight shooter. Most of the Yankee brass is/was not.
Blake -
Agreed. It was just time for a change.
Personally I would have been happy with the Yankees in ’08 hiring someone with no connection to the team; bringing in a completely new organizational dynamic because I felt the same eyes had been watching the same guys for too long and had let personal feelings impact baseball decisions. I would have liked a new group to come in without preconcieved notions about any of the players and evaluated the club coldly.
GLove, he could write about the explosion of young pitching. LOL Remember that article in ESPN where Jayson Starks took a poll of “experts” and asked who they wanted over the next ten years? Lincecum got all of 3 votes, lol; Phil got 1, Buchholz got none. When Pete wrote an article referencing that, he actually stated that he refused to accept that Buccholz didn’t get a vote (or wasn’t on the list) and included him in the list of pitchers he mentioned when discussing HS and college draftees. It’s not that Clay didn’t deserve a mention – I’m surprised he was left off, but then I was surprised Phil only got 1 vote and Lincecum 3; it’s just that Pete was so foreceful about the thing. He took it personally, it seems.
“If some here want to use the poor pitching staff and some of the misfits for the reason that Joe T. didn’t have sucess after 03 they need to allow Joe G. the same for 08.”
I do, that 2008 team wasn’t built to win in the playoffs any more than the 03-08 teams were. Thats why a revamp was needed after that season, and thats why it worked. They are making much better decisions now. This years and last years teams are much better prepared to make runs in the playoffs because they have better pitching, play better defense, and have the ability to score in other ways than hitting homeruns.
MaineYankee,
It’s much more satsifying for writers/fans to say it was because Joe G. was wound too tight and was dishonest with the writers than to recognize that missing Posada, Wang, Joba (v1.0), and Matsui for significant parts of the season could’ve been the reason they missed the playoffs.
Rishi, is there anymore to that article? I’m not an Insider – thanks! Oh, and thanks for posting. I’m tired of Francesa and others suggesting the Yankees ought to reach out to Joe or just forget about bygones. I don’t blame them a bit for being angry and I sure don’t blame Cashman for feeling betrayed.
I agree somewhat, but Torre wasn?t the only one providing the crap to Verducci that you don?t like! I respect torre still, because the players do. Ultimately that is what matters. Torre was a straight shooter. Most of the Yankee brass is/was not.
The guys who are talking in support of Torre are the “Torre guys” the guys he never, ever had issues with.
But there are/were just as many players who don’t have good things to say about Joe.
I don’t have a problem with the concept of the book – if a guy wants to write a book I couldn’t care less. But we’re talking about a man who always talked about the sanctity of the clubhouse and then he went out and proved to be the ultimate hypocrite. Also, as I said, Brian always had his back and Torre tossed him under the bus in the book.
“Depends on the ump and where he gets hit, I guess.
And if the mound is charged.”
I think wistfully back to Shelley Duncan. There’s a role for everybody.
“Shelley, did you see that? That pitcher just hit Tex.”
“He hurt Tex. He hurt Tex.”
“That’s right Shelley.”
“Pitcher bad. Me hurt pitcher.”
Will Torre get a day at the Stadium?
Those teams from 2001-2007 were certainly flawed, but some Yankee fans have begun to characterize those teams as some sort of second rate group.
Those teams were still supremely talented.
And they were better than most of the teams that knocked them out of the playoffs during the WS drought.
They had enough talent and should have won more than 4 WS under Torre’s reign regardless of the “flaws.”
Kyle Farnsworth’s hick abilities have been replaced by Joba’s Indian magic.
Shelley Duncan’s retard strength has yet to be replaced
Pat M, I don’t agree that you can just assume that the Yankees missing the playoffs in 2008 had anything to do with Torre being gone; that team was just not that great. The Dodgers made the playoffs because of bad division and Manny; sure, I’m sure Joe helped some, but he was not THE reason. For half the season, the team was at or about .500………
RayVT -
If you’re suggesting that Mel’s departure was the reason Joe’s handling of the pitchers eroded, I slightly disagree.
Mel and Joe were very similar in this regard – they weren’t teachers. They worked much better with veteran guys who only needed a reminder of what to do from time to time, or young guys like Andy or Jeter who were blessed with tremendous talent. But if you were a young player who needed teaching at the next level (Ted Lilly, Javy, Weaver) they had no use for you.
I also believe that it’s his inability to handle young pitchers that are as much a reason that he’s not here as anything else. I don’t think Brian wanted Torre blowing out guys like Hughes, Joba and Kennedy.
Missed playoffs in 2008 mostly because Posada was injured. Other injuries contributed as well
Betsy:
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb.....id=5327195
=================================================
Yogi Berra did not set foot inside Yankee Stadium for 14 years because of how George Steinbrenner fired him in 1985. Eventually, the words of his grandchildren — many of whom had never been inside Yankee Stadium with him — and an arrangement with the Yankees that helped the Yogi Berra Museum in New Jersey, led to a reconciliation between the Hall of Famer and the team. And Berra was in the Yankees’ clubhouse last Saturday, as he is on a lot of days, chatting with Chad Gaudin and other players.
Joe Torre’s relationship with the Yankees also ended in an ugly fashion, with Torre reacting angrily to the team’s suggestion that he take a pay cut. But unless Torre picks up the phone and calls Hal Steinbrenner directly and asks for a reconciliation — without any financial strings attached — it seems very unlikely that there will be the same kind of happy ending as there has been for Yogi.
It was apparent in Torre’s book that he remains upset because of those last hours with the team. But whatever he feels, the anger within the Yankees’ organization toward Torre goes far deeper than he knows; in the eyes of many, he will never be viewed the same way, and never be fully forgiven.
As the Yankees’ manager, Torre spoke at the beginning of each spring training to the players about keeping their disputes in-house, about respecting one another even where there were differences. He sometimes chastised reporters when he felt that probing questions went too far and were too salacious for his sensibilities. Folks within the organization didn’t always agree with Torre’s managerial decisions — no team has a complete consensus — but they always felt that he kept his dignity.
So when Torre took aim at others in his book, selling memories of in-house disagreements that he had always talked about hiding from public view, the collective opinion of him changed forever within the Yankees’ organization. They found his portrayal of particular events to be fiction. They thought he unnecessarily demonized the Steinbrenner sons. They were stunned by how he torpedoed general manager Brian Cashman, who had shielded him through the years from the wrath of George Steinbrenner and been his strongest advocate. And they were appalled by what they viewed as cheap shots at the likes of Alex Rodriguez and Kevin Brown and Carl Pavano; in Pavano’s case, Torre was in a unique position to know that all of his injuries were legitimate. In short, they came to view him as a hypocrite.
Buster’s new book
Buster Olney is the author of the forthcoming book “How Lucky You Can Be,” about basketball coach Don Meyer, whose life changed dramatically — and who made life changes — after a horrific accident on Sept. 5, 2008. Meyer was the subject of an “E:60″ piece in April 2009 and was honored at last year’s ESPYS. “How Lucky You Can Be” is due for release in September.
Torre has sometimes hid behind his co-author on the book, Tom Verducci, saying that Verducci learned a lot of the details contained within the book. But the people he left behind in the Bronx will never accept that excuse; Torre’s name is on the cover, and it was his choice whether to include the passages that painted A-Rod, Pavano, Cashman and others in a negative light.
His leadership during the dynasty of 1996-2001 will always be regarded as crucial, and whenever Torre is handed his Hall of Fame plaque, it will bear the cap of the team with which he has had the most success during his long career, the Yankees. But the feelings about him from those he left behind will never be the same as they once were.
When Berra left the Yankees’ organization in 1985, his rift was with George Steinbrenner, and Steinbrenner alone. For Torre, the anger and fury goes far beyond just one person, which will complicate any attempt at reconciliation. Even if one of the Steinbrenner sons and daughters ever thought about reaching out to Torre — and to this point, there is no sign of that happening — they would also know that those around them would not want to have anything to do with Torre if he came back, and they would probably refuse to welcome him back, or shake his hand.
m
It’s also easy to say Joe G. won only because of the $$ they spent.
m
It’s also easy to say Joe G. won only because of the $$ they spent.
—
It’s easy to say that because it’s true…
Chip June 25th, 2010 at 1:53 pm
LOL! The sanctity of the clubhouse applies only to the season. It is a way to basically keep the players focused on the game & the option to vent during the season w/o worrying about it. Making it anything more than that is worse than the Vegas commercial! (Stays in Vegas!)
LGy,
They weren’t a 2nd rate bunch by any stretch but one theme that was fairly constant through those years was that the teams that beat them had better pitching.
“I don’t have a problem with the concept of the book – if a guy wants to write a book I couldn’t care less. But we’re talking about a man who always talked about the sanctity of the clubhouse and then he went out and proved to be the ultimate hypocrite. Also, as I said, Brian always had his back and Torre tossed him under the bus in the book”
1) I agree. Conceptually, the book made sense. Timing was the issue. Torre was still raw from what he perceived as mistreatment by the Yankees. That’s no time to write a book. Had he left after ’07, managed the Dodgers for 4-5 years, then called it quits, and then writes the book, I think things work out a lot better for both parties.
2) Cashman did not have Torre’s back in ’07. He did before that, but not in ’07.
Patrick:
You know you’re going to take a beating for the phrase “retard strength.” (Compare the hilarious and Hollywood cynical “Going Full Retard” scene from the movie Tropic Thunder).
Still, having spent nearly thirty years in the Criminal Justice System in the 5 Boros and Long Island, I cannot tell you how many times I have heard old time cops refer to someone being “retard strong” and how nobody ever needed the phrase explained.
I find it interesting that many fans and some media members have an issue with how the Yankees were smiling and laughing when Mo was hitting on Wednesday night. There seems to be some sort of assumption that these guys aren’t taking their jobs seriously…….and Girardi said (with Mike) yesterday that he spoke to them about it, so clearly he wasn’t happy either.
You know you’re going to take a beating for the phrase “retard strength.” (Compare the hilarious and Hollywood cynical “Going Full Retard” scene from the movie Tropic Thunder).
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Going full retard was one of the funniest lines in that movie.
And Shelley Duncan looks a bit mental if you ask me.. I’m convinced that’s why he’s so strong
Sorry if I offended you though
Good question:
Who was the biggest acquisition after Torre got to the Yankees. So you can’t use Tino or Girardi…
It’s harder than you might think to come up with it. The key performers were already with the club or in the system.
The only big names to come over were guys like Knoblauch, Clemens, Justice…
My opinion: El Duque
LGY June 25th, 2010 at 1:43 pm
He had too big of an ego to take a pay cut, just like Damon.
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And Jeter next year…
Billy, at some point Cashman had to watch out for his own job.
Rishi, thanks!! If the Yankees and Joe reconcile eventually, great; if they don’t, I don’t particularly care. I’m with the Yankees on this one.
Heaven forbid that the Yankees have fun while playing a game.
Patrick:
“Sorry if I offended you though”
Not a bit
I just know there is a lot of sensitivity and want you to be prepared to duck.
Betsy….Torre’s Dodgers in the 2008 playoffs almost beat the eventual World Series Champion Phillies….They gave them a better fight than the Tampa Rays did…..And the book was a candy cotton account compared to books written by Nettles, Lyle, Munson , Mantle, Ford etc…….See everyone tonight at Chavez Ravine
Chip
You jumped from bullpen to young pitchers! Last I remembered the young guys were in the BP (Joba) & did fine. It was the SP (older guys) that struggled after Mel, not before. Basically the Yanks had little SP after 2004. They sucked! They had tons of them to try as each year seemed to bring in new retreads or too young pitchers.
Mel could handle a rotation.
BTW, Cash tossed Torre out in favor of his own power & standing. He went with the crowd of Tampa Torre haters.
“The only big names to come over were guys like Knoblauch, Clemens, Justice”
Cone, Wells, C. Davis, Brosuis
You know you’re going to take a beating for the phrase “retard strength.” (Compare the hilarious and Hollywood cynical “Going Full Retard” scene from the movie Tropic Thunder).
=========================
That was classic dialogue in an underrated funny movie.
A lot of what Stiller does is underrated.
Downey is a genius.
There is a time and place to be loose and fooling around. An extra inning game with a 1 run lead isnt one of them. At least in my opinion. And it appears Girardi agrees.
The Yanks were up6-5 during Mo’s AB.
“Billy, at some point Cashman had to watch out for his own job.”
Sure. But you can’t assume that position and say “I backed him all the way” at the same time.
Anyone take a look at the numbers Vlad Guerrero has put up this year at DH?
15hr, 59rbi, 326ba, 373obp, 544slg, 917ops want to guess how much he’s making this year? yup thats right 5.5 million – or the same as our lovable DH/DL is making sitting at home recovering yet again from another injury…oh and add 4 sb’s to vlad’s resume this year as well – so much for “the guy could barely walk” and was a year ending injury waiting to happen..nice one cashman!!
But, but…Torre lost as the Yankees spent more?
I know, I know. Torre didn’t have a CC Sabathia. Just teasing ya.
I don’t know how I feel about that, CC – I think I lean towards “what’s the big deal”. I don’t really see what the problem is, I guess. What should they be doing? Sitting on their hands and looking miserable? I have to ask how Joe felt about the Yankees getting a kick out of Swisher pitching last year in a game where the team was beyond humiliated.
Patrick June 25th, 2010 at 1:59 pm
m
It’s also easy to say Joe G. won only because of the $$ they spent.
?
It?s easy to say that because it?s true?
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I’m not sure you got my point. Some want to give one credit for the job they did because of their managing skills but discredit one because of the payroll. They both had the same advantage as far as the amount of $$ spent.
“Shelley Duncan’s retard strength has yet to be replaced
”
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dumb statement
Pat M. June 25th, 2010 at 2:05 pm
LOL! You forgot Bouton!! Ball Four!
Billy, IMO Cash did back him all the way……Man, I hate this series; when it’s over, I will be celebrating.
“The only big names to come over were guys like Knoblauch, Clemens, Justice”
Cone, Wells, C. Davis, Brosuis
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Torre was indeed great with established stars like these plus winners like El Duque.
Don’t think he had the patience for neophytes or underachievers.
He thought of himself as deity esp during 2001 and beyond.
dumb statement
—
Dumb joke you mean
He thought of himself as deity esp during 2001 and beyond.
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How do you know this?
When did lack of money ever play into Yankee failure?
I ended that abruptly………the point is, Joe seemed to expect that Cash lay everything on the line for him, including his job.
Boy, I can’t wait until we talk baseball………..
He thought of himself as deity esp during 2001 and beyond.
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Everything here is a matter of opinion, including you, right?
“That was classic dialogue in an underrated funny movie.
A lot of what Stiller does is underrated.
Downey is a genius.”
It ain’t “Young Frankenstein” but it does hold up well time after time. Downey’s performance was pitch perfect, over the top but not too far, not as far as Will Ferrell. Kind of reminds me of the performances in Stripes.
The “Simple Jack” thing is hysterical too.
And last but not least, Les Grossman is genius. And I really can’t stomach Tom Cruise. Still the dancing he did at the end of the movie was hypnotizing, sort of like watching The Many Faces of Death.
“IMO Cash did back him all the way……Man, I hate this series; when it’s over, I will be celebrating”
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betsy: if you didn’t pay attention to every media piece, you may not hate it. Ditto for everyone else.
why not take it for what it is?? A match-up of two historic/classic baseball clubs, in a venue which the Yankees rarely play.
BTW, Cash tossed Torre out in favor of his own power & standing. He went with the crowd of Tampa Torre haters.
If it hadn’t been for Cashman Joe would have been fired after 04, and certainly after the Detroit series (especially since Pinella was out there).
After the 2007 season Brian knew there was nothing more he could do for Joe. The club was not going to offer Torre the raise or contract that he wanted and there was nothing Brian could do to change that.
BillyD – I think Cash knew that ’07 was different than previous years. The playoff losses were accumulating, Torre’s standing within the organization was continuing to deteriorate, and even Cash had had issues with his management style (hence, the Joba Rules, in order to protect their highly valued young pitcher).
Cash had stood up for Torre in previous years. I think Cash read the organizational signs, saw that he couldn’t save Torre this time, and further saw that trying to do so would only damage his own standing.
After Torre left, Cash probably felt he had made the right call to step to the side.
I thought it was great that the guys were laughing at Mo. And it’s not like the were whoopin’ and hollerin’.
I don’t think anyone (including Joe G) thought it was that big a deal.
I feel the same about Cruise. He attempts comedy in his latest with C. Diaz, haven’t seen.
But he was funny in Thunder.
Vinny, I can appreciate the series for what it is……..and you’re right. Actually, I haven’t read any articles on Joe/the reunion. I think I’ll probably avoid listening to WFAN unless they talk about the Knicks, in which case I will go slit my wrists,lol.
“Anyone take a look at the numbers Vlad Guerrero has put up this year at DH?”
Arlington, Texas-inflated numbers to some degree:
.376 avg, .415 OBP, .644 Slg, 1.059 OPS at home
.256 avg, .317 OBP, .411 Slg, .728 OPS everywhere else
.256 avg, .317 OBP, .411 Slg, .728 OPS everywhere else
—
What a stud!!!11
Billy D June 25th, 2010 at 2:06 pm
Key, Cone, O’Neil & Straw were already there before Torre.
Yanks & Torre added Gooden, Kenny Rogers, Graeme Lloyd, Girardi, Tino, Mariano Duncan, Cecil Fielder, Jeff Nelson, Luis Sojo & Tim Raines.
He also brought up some guys named Jeter & Mendoza and also worked Posada in the mix at Catcher with Girardi & Leyritz.
The Yanks lost McDowell, Howe, Stanley, Mattingly, Velarde & Tony Fernandez. Also lost Dion James who started in LF for Buck.
Joe from LI:
Agree 100%
M, Joe did think it was a big deal because he mentioned it on Mike’s show (granted, Francesa asked him about it – Joe didn’t bring it up).
Here’s something baseball related, lol:
http://www.theyankeeu.com/2010.....ghes-19060
He’s not in bad company, that’s for sure.
I think I’ll probably avoid listening to WFAN unless they talk about the Knicks, in which case I will go slit my wrists,lol.
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You don’t want to listen to that either. It’s all over now since Chicago can get 2 max players now.
I just read an unbelievable fact that AJ is the first Yankee pitcher since 1987 to allow 3 HRs in the first inning.
There have been some awful starters since 1987….. come on Andy
hey, check it out! a new post!!
Lebron isn’t winning a championship with the Bulls.
Hope he isn’t fooling himself into thinking that.
That and the ghost of Jordan will haunt him. Better off in NY, we will get the cast he needs to win it.
RayVT……Ball Four was before most here were born…..I doubt most here have read the books I mentioned anyway……Some are ripping Torre without even reading the book…….So many are influenced by the negative NY media…….Shame is they believe what they here and read in the NY Tabloids…..
Billy D – I’ll take those home numbers for 81 games and live with the 81 away numbers any day
how about these home/away splits (nicky DL’s #’s)
233/452/533/986 at home
119/339/143/482 away
plus Vlad is actually playing everyday – which in my book trumps any number you can throw out in the curious case of Nick Johnson and his $5.5 million salary
Trevor, the thing that makes me ticked about the Knicks is that they are at the mercy of the FA and they put themselves in that position. They can not force Lebron or anyone else to come here (and, frankly, why would they want to come here), so what exactly is their plan if they don’t sign anyone?
Chip June 25th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
I agree totally! But Cash did not have his back in 2007 as most seem to be stating here! I’m not upset at Cash BTW!
Please, enough with whining “Torre didn’t have them bunt on Schilling” crap. Exactly who on that team was supposed to bunt? Cairo? He was 2-3 with 2 doubles and scored a run on Jeter’s single. They opened the 4th inning with 2 singles. Are you asking Williams and Matsui to bunt? After a double and single with 1 out in the 8th, was Rodriguez supposed to bunt? He was one of the better hitters during that series. There were also 4 1-2-3 innings and another with 1 home run and 3 outs in 4 batters.
===============>>>>>>>>>>>>>>New Thread (thank god)
vlad was showing a pretty sharp decline in production before he was signed by the Rangers. He’s also old and now runs like a granny (he looked injured). Nick Johnson on the other hand was healthy (as healthy as he gets), had great production and isn’t on the back end of his career.
The signing just didn’t work out as of yet…
“That and the ghost of Jordan will haunt him. Better off in NY, we will get the cast he needs to win it.”
Much better in Chicago if they’re talking about 2 max guys and Rose.
GB. …..Logic is not allowed
Pat M
You are going to have a different view of the Torre situation because of playing the game.
I understand that and because of that you have a different view of it.
And because of that you have knowledge of how things are in the clubhouse that we don’t.
I’m not trying to disregard you view because of those facts.
And you may be more right than I am because of that.
What I’m trying to say is I respect your opinion.
“If it hadn’t been for Cashman Joe would have been fired after 04, and certainly after the Detroit series (especially since Pinella was out there).
After the 2007 season Brian knew there was nothing more he could do for Joe. The club was not going to offer Torre the raise or contract that he wanted and there was nothing Brian could do to change that”
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well said.
when a GM/Front Office is forced to issue/attach a set of instructions with a young relief pitcher, the manager is pretty much of no use. And i believe at that point, Brian Cashman finally had no use for Joe Torre. Respect? Definitely. But at the same time, knew he was no longer the man for the job.
like you mentioned, Cashman had Torre’s back for several years. Perhaps Torre felt a bit slighted by Cashman at the very end, when Brian Cashman basically washed his hands of it all. I’ll advised feelings, IMHO
Nick Johnson on the other hand was healthy (as healthy as he gets), had great production and isn’t on the back end of his career.
The signing just didn’t work out as of yet…
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“Its just a little scratch”…
Passengers on the Titanic overhearing Patrick speaking with one of the crew.
Maine….It is and always will be a hot topic for Yankee fans…….All opions are right, except those that are blind…..That of course doesn’t include you at all…….I respect your viewpoint
Looks like my buddy Presidente is back. Ready to put up like you asked me to?
Go Yankees!